EchoLink Working Everywhere?
Peter Panayiotis Vekinis (KH6VP)
on
December 28, 2009
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I travel a lot (160 flights/year). Thus my time for using ham radio is severely limited. Then comes EchoLink. Saves my hamradio life (if you call using Echolink ham radio!).
Then I realize that it can not be used from hotels and other places where firewalls and proxies exist (which I can not access to setup the echolink ports).
I contacted Echolink to ask them to offer port 80 EchoLink so that it can be used from restricted places, and they said they don't agree with all those companies (like Realmedia, Windows Media, skype et al) who use port 80 for media streaming (port 80 is the normal HTTP port and is specified for text only - media companies convert voice to text and exchange it accordingly).
The EchoLink people feel that ports should be used as specified and not as companies do to bypass restrictions due to firewalls etc.
If that had prevailed, the Internet would be stuck in the past.
What do you think? Should EchoLink offer port 80 operation so that it can be used from everywhere?
Peter, KH6VP
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 28, 2009
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Yes... But don't expect it.
As for ham radio....well...if their is a ham radio in the
path..its ham radio....if not..then not.
KT4WO
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by W3HII on December 28, 2009
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Yes. I've always had trouble with the Echolink ports when away from home. I think they should offer a menu option to use port 80!
W3HII
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by NY7Q on December 28, 2009
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NO,,,TO PORT 80
FOLLOW THE RULES
BUY A CELL PHONE
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by AB2YS on December 28, 2009
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I was on my 2M rig connected to a local repeater, and was talking to a fellow 1500 miles away who was on a train and using Echolink on his laptop. He was also connected to the repeater. Is that Ham radio?
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by WG8Z on December 28, 2009
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Set yourself up an echolink private proxy server. Worked well for me several years back on a road trip.
Allowed me to connect to my Home simplex node via a mobile simplex node connected via wi-fi to various hotel,restaraunt,ect. hotspots. Kinda fun talking from the sunny beaches of Florida to my friends back home in Ohio weathering a little snow squall using a HT and a 1/4Watt....
Hmmm Radio to radio to computer to 802.11 thru internet to Server to internet to radio via 802.11.
Enought RF for the purists?
4 radios, 2 wi-fi links one internet tunnel =
4 2m radios,4 2.4gig radios and one long mic cord with a few computers stuck in the middle HiHi.
Sounds like ham radio to me.
73
Zed
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K0BG on December 28, 2009
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Brother, does this ever open up a can of worms (no pun intended).
Internet security is so lax in some respects, it is no wonder so much hacking goes on. After all, there are folks out there who think it's all a game, so they seek the holy grail. Heck, they've even hacked the Pentagon!
Lax security also allows all manner of viruses, Trojan horses, spyware, and farming to go on, it's a wonder anything works as it should. I don't even like keeping ports open when I'm aren't using them, so I have scripts to open and close them at the click of an icon.
Microsoft is its own worse enemy, as their software has so many holes in it, it looks like swiss cheese to a hacker. Worse, most PC users don't know how to close the holes. In some cases, when they do close the holes, their software stops working because it can't reregister itself. What a state of affairs!
The other real bugbear is Internet cafes, and others who have free WiFi. And of course, there are the non-savvy home PC user who don't know how to set up their wireless networks, allowing anyone who happens to be nearby to use them nefariously.
Port 80 in and by itself, isn't the problem for legitimate users. But, we have to keep reminding ourselves that the Internet is the new frontier replete with the James gang, the Clampets, etc. As a result, everyone of us needs to be armed. While I may sound like an alarmist, I fear the worse is yet to come.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WA7NCL on December 28, 2009
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Alan, if browsers use port 80 all the time, how would Echolink usage cause more hacking?
All the crap that comes down thru the browser now is still there.
Seems like it should be a decision made by the Echolink system operators.
If you use port 80, you will have to be ready for whatever comes out.
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by N1VQM on December 28, 2009
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+1 on Port 80. Echolink is one of the new tools that can help Ham Radio grow and allow those of us who travel to connect. There is NO reason why this would not be desirable. It may be a lot of work, but the result would be great. I am all for making it easier to get people onto echolink.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N0FPE on December 28, 2009
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Just what we need. More vomit from the internet all over our shoes. No Port 80, or love potion #9, or Soilent green.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by HAMMYGUY on December 28, 2009
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Echolink is stuck back in the 90's. While it can be fun to use, it's the most fickle ham software that I know of to set up. Trying to get the configuration to work through the various routers on the market is the reason people don't use it more often. Just take a look at the reviews right here on eham.
I've tried it several times. On my old dial-up backup account it works just fine, but after several attempts to configure the software and router I just erased it.
I have no plans to reinstall it unless the configuration format is fixed. All my other software works just fine. It's just Echolink that doesn't.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KC8ZEV on December 28, 2009
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Here we go again. Real Amateur radio cooks RF off a antenna, Echolink does not. There. Now you know where I stand. With that said, Echolink is better than nothing for those who are limited by space, time, and means. Any of my attempts to configure Echolink was a test of patience.....it was too klunky and I went back to 17 meters, never to return. Why not make it easier for those who use Echolink by utilizing ports that may make it easier to use???? The folks at Echolink better wake up before another mode comes along and puts them in the reference book for modes that once were!
73
KC8ZEV
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 28, 2009
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Hi Peter. Consider setting up a point to point VPN connection to your computer back home. If you're on a dynamic IP there are free dynamic DNS providers that you can use. Most modern routers now will update the DyDNS provider with your current IP.
A ptp VPN will accomplish several things, one of which will be increased security. I believe Microsoft products will allow you to setup a PPTP VPN, if you're running GNU/Linux then SSH forwarding would likely be a better choice unless you want to implement OpenVPN. When I am abroad I always route all HTTP/HTTPS/etc traffic across an SSH tunnel forwarded to my SQUID proxy sever.
The goal here is to route traffic over an SSH tunnel or a VPN. This will not only prevent potential MITM and credential harvesting attacks but also allow you to utilize the Internet from these locations unrestricted. IHMO most of these locations will permit a VPN/SSH connection.
Remember, EchoLink uses UDP as well as TCP. An instance on TCP 80 will not circumvent egress firewall policies especially if they are quenching UDP egress in the ephemeral range.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WW6L on December 28, 2009
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as an IT professional I will back their reason. It is sound. in essence what your asking for is this:
i am unhappy with the constraints hotels etc put on their net connectivity and i want the echo link guys to find a way around it.
go to the source of the problem, place blame where it belongs!
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N0FPE on December 28, 2009
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oOPS...I forgot that a lot of folks have no idea what Soilent Green is..my bad.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KB1GMX on December 28, 2009
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I consider Echolink mostly pointless. Its not RF, can work without radios, and therefore not ham. It's cute wizz bang computer tech.
Port 80 complete without security and all the bots you can stand for Ham voice link.. Sounds really bad to me.
And generally web sites that need that level of security do not use port 80 they use HTTPS. Also port 80 requires a DNS to have a resolveable URL and likely your home computer is not a registered domain.
Set up a personal VPN to the home station and do it right.
Allison
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by KJ4AUR on December 28, 2009
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There's a fair amount of misinformation here.
Allison, a FQDN is not required for HTTP/HTTPS but I'm sure the browser will complain about the cert not matching the CN for SSL. You can easily reach a HTTPd using an IPv4 address. If the HTTPd is doing virtual hosts and expects a HTTP/1.1 Host header and you are accessing the HTTPd via the IPv4 address you will receive the content associated with the default page.
"Security" with regard to HTTP/HTTPS seems to be a misnomer. There isn't anything inherently insecure with TCP 80, nor TCP 443. The primary difference between the two is that TCP 80 is associated with HTTP while TCP 443 is associated with HTTPS; encryption.
Echolink uses stateless UDP for the voice/data, just like VoIP; packet loss = jitter. I assume that the stateful TCP is used to maintain the connection to the C&C.
Like I said, a fair amount of misinformation here, not intentionally malicious just misguided perhaps.
73 - Nathan
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by K9IUQ on December 28, 2009
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">...I forgot that a lot of folks have no idea what Soilent Green is..my bad."
First you gotta learn how to spell.
Then we will have an idea of what you are talking about......
Soylent Green ?
Soilent Green is a Rock Metal band and I guarantee no ham here has heard of them.
Stan K9IUQ
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by KR2C on December 28, 2009
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KJ4AUR Said......
Echolink uses stateless UDP for the voice/data, just like VoIP; packet loss = jitter.
Jitter is not packet loss. It's random packet latency and/or packets arriving out of sequence. otherwise you're good to go.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 28, 2009
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@KR2C - Exactly right, thanks. I had always lumped "jitter" into packet loss as well as out of sequence data and latency issues. I'm not a big VoIP guy outside of T-Mobile's IPSEC UMA service. Thanks for the correction and clarification.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WB4M on December 28, 2009
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Stan K9IUQ:
The Soylent Green N0FPF refers to is the movie Soylent Green, hence his reference to vomit.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by W4VR on December 28, 2009
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I recall having the same "port" problem using Echolink. Why don't you use Skype instead? Round up a bunch of friends...not necessarily ham operators...and communicate with them when you feel lonely in those hotel rooms. I use Skype all the time to chat with friends and other hams, including an airline pilot...and it's also neat to see who you're chatting with. I was chatting with a ham yesterday using Skype...I had not seen him in almost 30 years...we both lied and said we had not changed in appearance. Good Luck!
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N0FPE on December 28, 2009
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Well thank you so much for correcting my spelling Stan. What would we do without folks like you correcting us all the time for no reason? SOYLENT GREEN. I am so ashamed....Its only been 30 years since I saw the movie last and I am getting old
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K9IUQ on December 28, 2009
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>"Well thank you so much for correcting my spelling Stan"
No problem. :>
>"What would we do without folks like you correcting us all the time for no reason?"
NO Reason?? BIG difference between Soilent Green and Soylent Green. Learn to use Wikipedia and/or Wiktionary :>
Stan K9IUQ
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by N0FPE on December 28, 2009
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See there you go again Stan! Being so helpful. Thanks again for making sure that the world is safe from misspelled words and worthless and unwanted information. I will sleep better tonight!
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WN9HJW on December 28, 2009
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What do you need a "port 80" for anyway.
Every major city and most smaller ones that I've ever travelled to have had 2 meter and/or 70cm repeaters, and some have echolink access. So bring an HT on your trips and be a real ham.
On the other hand if you're only interested in echolink via computer so you can talk only to specific people, then you should be using a cell phone or an internet chat room.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K8QV on December 28, 2009
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Just use one of the other chat rooms. You can even have video with them.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KG6TAG on December 28, 2009
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Happy New Year everyone,
Peter - what about the proxy list at http://www.echolink.org/proxylist.asp ??
-Dave / AE6RQ
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N3CSA on December 28, 2009
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I can see someone who uses real radios most of the time desiring to use Echolink when traveling. Makes sense, at least you get to talk to others when you can't carry a radio with you.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N1BHH on December 28, 2009
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There is nothing wrong with Echolink, It's mostly the operator that can't or won't take the few minutes to figure out how to set it up through their router and they think it can't be done.
I am using a DSL router off my cable modem and it only took about 2-3 minutes to set it up, after I did some snooping online on how to configure it. I went to www.portforward.com, found my router and printed the instructions, configured it and was up and running in under 3 minutes.
My RF node runs 24 hours a day on fairly low power and the only problem I have is when people connect they just don't talk. Isn't talking what it's all about?
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WA2FDU on December 28, 2009
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As the manager of the EchoLink node for our repeater I feel I must share my 2 cents worth.
1. There is a Proxy Server function within the EchoLink client software to get around the Security problems. It works very well and is very stable. One must only read, learn, and try.
2. Case in Point - Why did we decide to implement EchoLink on our repeater? The list is almost endless but it includes Snowbirds (we are in Upstate NY), old friends that have moved away, and those of us that take business trips.
I truly understand both sides of the fence on this topic. Again, why did we do it..... To give us a common multi-user meeting place via our repeater to keep in touch. A 'One to Many' communications link.
With deepest respect to all opinions...........
Stephen / WA2FDU
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K0IC on December 28, 2009
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I can not get Echolink to work through the telephone company router. I am all ears to solutions. I do not think the telephone company has the expertise to help me out the way it keeps ending in shouting matches. It might be the ISP is playing hardball with Echolink but that is just a guess. I have no training in Echolink other than the lessons on the Internet.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N1KDO on December 28, 2009
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VPN is your friend.
If you cannot make that work, look at SSH port tunneling.
Most of the free wifi I use requires you to view a web page (on port 80) then you get pretty much unfettered access to the internet... You just have to agree to the terms of service (from the web page) to get access.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 28, 2009
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KOIC - I'll help you. Shoot me an email, I'll need to know the make/model of your router, your OS type and version, and if Win32 your AV/Firewall product in use.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 28, 2009
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DV1UBY - Better yell at Skype, they purport to run an HTTPd on TCP 80 as well as TCP 443 yet neither are a true HTTPd nor RFC compliant. Try to issue a HEAD method against them and you'll end up with binary data. :)
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by W3DCB on December 28, 2009
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The best method of hamming for those on the road is remote operating. There are so many good rig control programs. My favorite is Ham Radio Deluxe. Set up is easy and cheap. Go to Target.com and pick up a couple of cheap rebuilt computers. Add a bit of hard work and common sense and you will soon have yourself a great remote station. Glentek RS-232 boards allow for "direct" control of your radio with the ability to re-boot your computer if it "gets stuck." Skype software is free for audio and video if you want to view your panoramic display. X-10 Phone control systems are cheap. I use X-10 phone control to "reboot" my router when necessary, turn off and on my linear, and control my 12 VDC power supply. Antenna tuners are automatic. Watt meters with remote capability are expensive, however. I use Power Master with a Glentek RS-232 ethernet board. I was using a Tokyo HyPower Linear, but I just purchased an SPE Expert K1 Linear for its RS-232 remote control in its place. The solid state linears with broadband capability are competatively priced at around $4k (Quadra system, Icom's P1, Expert, Tokyo HyPower, etc). Either way, the point is that with broadband solid state linears, tuning a linear is not necessary. You don't need all of the redundancy and control capability that I have over so many aspects of my station...especially if someone is home for that occaisional re-boot or power re-set, etc. I even have a video/audio server for panoramic display viewing and video cameras for monitoring which most would not need. I use Behringer mixers and audio splitters for audio control, but most would not need anything more than a cheap RigBlaster or equivilant for PTT and sound card interfacing to the radio. I know that Echolink is cheap, but most hams to whom we are referring already have a home station of some sort. To get it running remotely is not that diffucult or involed. Some radios like the TS-2000, the so-called "shack in a box" type radios, can give you great coverage from just one radio. I actually am not sure why Echolink is not extinct with all of the remote capability out there? Well, just my 2 cents guys! Take care and have a sweet New Year! Daniel C. Baral W3DCB
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K9COE on December 28, 2009
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I too created a private proxy server. It's easy to do, easier than setting up Echolink itself. This is probably why they feel there is no real need to create a Port 80 set up.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KC0VGC on December 28, 2009
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In the context of the original post, the problem is not what port EchoLink uses. It could use port 80 now and the problem would be the same. The problem is that it requires an inbound port to be open to the computer running EchoLink. It makes no difference what port it is.
The many solutions already mentioned do the job.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KB9MWR on December 29, 2009
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Even if you were to use a well known port like port 80, you need the firewall open to pass incoming port 80.
The no audio problem is because you are in effect running a peer to peer server that has to accept an incoming connection. General web browsing is only an out going port 80 activity.
What I think should be worked into the echolink program is UPnP support so the program has the ability to open ports on it's own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Plug_and_Play
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Soilent Green
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by N4CQR on December 29, 2009
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I have. But then again, I ain't the conventional ham.
Craig
"Soilent Green is a Rock Metal band and I guarantee no ham here has heard of them."
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RE: Soilent Green
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by KR2C on December 29, 2009
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N0FPE said:
See there you go again Stan! Being so helpful. Thanks again for making sure that the world is safe from misspelled words and worthless and unwanted information. I will sleep better tonight!
if he was truly able to get rid of worthless and unwanted information then he would have found a way to remove your original post.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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KB9MWR - I'm sorry but general web-browsing is a two-way interactive protocol, just as SMTP. The client will issue an HTTP method, such as GET, POST, HEAD, etc, along with subsequent HTTP/1.0 or HTTP/1.1 header information. The server will respond with an HTTP code (HTTP 200, 404, 403, 302, etc) and the subsequent page data. There is also a maintained keep-alive as well if the server supports it.
The crux of the issue is that you need to pass incoming UDP to the computer running echo link since UDP is not a stateful protocol and state cannot be maintained like it can with TCP with a routers state tables.
UPnP does what you suggest, it opens and forwards the necessary ports (UDP) to the computer running echolink.
If the firewall is configured to permit related, established traffic there is no reason to "open" TCP 80 incoming. When you browse a page there are several operations that happen, one the FQDN is resolved to an DNS A record (with recursion of CNAME as necessary), the browser connects to this A record on TCP dport 80 and issues the necessary host-header if using HTTP/1.1 and the subsequent HTTP method, usually GET.
UDP is the crux since state cannot be maintained as there is no 3-way handshake, and AFAIK there are no H.323 style "helpers" for Echolink.
As an aside, UPnP is a huge security concern since programs can arbitrarily open an ingress port and forward this data to your computer, effectively circumventing the "firewall" benefits of NAT. From a security aspect I would recommend all disable UPnP and explicitly forward ports as necessary.
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RE: Soilent Green
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by W0AEW on December 29, 2009
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"I prefer the nocturnal carol 'Soylent Night'?"
Is that the song with the round young virgins?
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KR2C on December 29, 2009
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CBISBACK said:
So, exactly what does Echolink have to do with amateur radio?
One application might be that repeaters can be attached to the Internet as a node. If a Ham radio operator is remote from his radio station but has Internet access, that operator can access the repeater through the Internet connection and they will be able to talk to all the other operators on the repeater using the RF from the repeater to do their communications.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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CBISBACK - It's simulated amateur radio where RF and propagation is replaced by multi-hop Internet routes. An EchoLink user would "DTMF their way to DX" by punching in a node number/etc. EchoLink is restricted to Amateur Radio operators.
Some people really enjoy using it. My opinion is that they are deluding themselves into believing they are playing radio because any excitement in the DX contact or contact is disproportionate since the link between the two is a multi-hop reliable Internet connection, not RF.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KR2C on December 29, 2009
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KJ$AUR said:
CBISBACK - It's simulated amateur radio where RF and propagation is replaced by multi-hop Internet routes. An EchoLink user would "DTMF their way to DX" by punching in a node number/etc. EchoLink is restricted to Amateur Radio operators.
To my knowledge, there is no DTMF tones involved at all with echolink. Trying to equate Echolink with a phone call is as much of a stretch as equating Echolink with ham radio.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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KR2C - See http://www.echolink.org/Help/dtmf_functions.htm you use DTMF to punch in a node number, hence "DTMF your way to DX". Ask a few EchoLink users if they use DTMF to verify, I'm fairly sure they do.
I used it once, on a repeater, and felt dirty. I promptly went home and called CQ on HF for 30 minutes to atone for my transgressions.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KR2C on December 29, 2009
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I guess you're right. I've never used it that way. Then again, I've never used it for DX either.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KB3PXZ on December 29, 2009
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port 80 is the internet. It's open on all personal computers by default. The reason we are discussing it is because any business that offers internet access has port 80 open on their firewall
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EchoLink Port 80? NO!
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by KJ7BS on December 29, 2009
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It would have been better to ask the question, how can I access EchoLink while traveling when firewalls restrict the port necessary for EchoLink communication?
My God man, experiment, innovate, extend. That's what amateur radio is all about. Anyone can push a power button, key a microphone, and speak a message.
Standards are established for a reason, but then again amateur radio has established operating procedures. One can easily see what happens when amateur operators think they don't need to follow established procedures.
The same goes for port standards, except that affects a much larger community and one that really has no sense of humor when you don't follow thier established standards. When software manufacturers change their software and follow the established standards and Real's, and other's, software stops working, it will be Real and the others who have to fix their software as they did not follow the standards. When you do not follow the standards, you are in no mans land, on your own.
I applaud EchoLink for following the port standards.
I can't believe this subject even came up. There are many other ways to get access to EchoLink besides making the software run over port 80 (inviolation of ANSI standards).
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RE: EchoLink Port 80? NO!
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by CBISBACK on December 29, 2009
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KJ7BS Wrote:
"My God man, experiment, innovate, extend. That's what amateur radio is all about. Anyone can push a power button, key a microphone, and speak a message."
To wit my original question:
What does Echolink have to do with amateur radio?
And please, all of you computer nerds out there who think Echolink "is" ham radio, I've forgotten more about computing than you'll ever know. Don't lecture me on what's state-of-the-art and how I should be seeking out new challenges. Listening to 20 meters these days is challenge enough for anyone licensed more than 10 years.
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RE: EchoLink Port 80? NO!
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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CBISBACK - Little if any. It's an RF substitute by egressing multiple Internet hops/routes. If we were to observe 'radio' literally at no point could EchoLink be construed as ham radio or Amateur Radio. EchoLink advocates argue that because RF *may* be involved (someone may be using an HT, or a repeater) that it's still Amateur Radio. EchoLink is solely dependent on the Internet, therefore, it cannot be radio. It's merely an entertainment *medium*, as RF is a *medium*, used as a substitute or perhaps a crutch to real RF and propagation. I've actually heard of people exchanging QSL cards for EchoLink contacts.
I guess to answer your question, EchoLink requires you to be a licensed amateur. I guess that's really the answer to your question because outside of that I fail to see how it's Amateur Radio in any shape or form.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K0IC on December 29, 2009
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I am using an Intellinet router with Norton 360 and a Dell Optiflex GX 240 computer. This has worked for a time then I complained to the Iowa Utilities Board and it worked again for a few weeks before not working at all. That is why I suspect ISP problems.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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K0IC - Shoot me an email. Essentially you have a multi-layered firewall. First, you have the intrinsic firewall-like qualities introduced by NAT, an actual layer-3 firewall (possibly with SPI) introduced by the Intellinet router, and finally an additional layer-3/layer-7 firewall introduced by Norton 360.
What you should do is:
On the Intellinet router:
Permit ingress to UDP port 5198-5199
Permit egress to TCP port 5200 (likely not an issue) with state related,established permitted.
Forward incoming UDP port 5189-5199 to the RFC1918 IP address of your computer.
On the computer:
Permit ingress to UDP port 5198-5199
Permit egress to TCP port 5200 (likely not an issue)
Who knows if Norton 360 also permits the Windows Firewall to run as well. I'm not a big Win32 guy.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 29, 2009
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OK..just gota ask...
If I use my 2mtr mobile to "hit" the local 2mtr rptr that is "linked" via echolink(internet) to my 440 rptr and talk to to guy who is on his 440 mobile....
Lets see... that is 4 radios...right??.wait..sorry..4 HAM radios...(unless you count the 2 rptrs as 2 rx and 2 tx)....ok... 4 HAM radios and 1 internet link...
Naaaaa..that aint "Ham Radio"....its all internet chat rooms..... FM......what was I thinking.....
OHHHH WAIT..If I run a phone patch on HF for my buddy
in Iraq so he can talk to his kids in the states...
Thats not HAM Radio... because I am using the POTS phoneline....Right????????? Right????????? I mean..If their is ANYTHING other than RF in the link....Its not "ham radio"..... Right??????
KT4WO - Trip
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 29, 2009
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Sooooo... that means....
ALL the older hams who ran phone patches years
ago ..were not "real" hams.... Right??????????
Damn... Who knew?
KT4WO - Trip
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K6SDW on December 29, 2009
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Peter, here at work the standard Echolink ports are closed by firewalls so I use a "private" proxy server provided by a "friendly" ham and can use Echolink from work!
By-the-way, I too believe it ain't "real" radio but using the Internet from work as a connection it allows me listen to our 2 meter box (and chat too) and still get me work done and get paid too boot......../73
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 29, 2009
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Hey Trip, what if someone contacted me on 2m simplex, and I cross banded that to a phone patch, and the 3rd party on the other end read me an email that he got from someone else. Well, that means that email must have been Amateur Radio because at some point in the equation somewhere someone used a radio?
I don't think anyone running a phone patch and the party on the other side with the phone up to their ear were so delusional that they believe that at the instant the phone patch was run their phone was no longer POTS but instead a magical RF emitting device.
I did hear a couple EchoLink apologists arguing around the RF aspect and justifying that EchoLink was Amateur Radio if they were using 802.11a/b/g/n WiFi.
Twist my words all you want but at the moment RF is replaced with Internet VoIP isn't not Amateur *RADIO*, it's a completely different medium. That doesn't mean it's wrong, evil, bad, or stupid. It simply means it's not *RADIO*.
73 - Nathan
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by CBISBACK on December 29, 2009
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KT4WO Wrote:
"OHHHH WAIT..If I run a phone patch on HF for my buddy
in Iraq so he can talk to his kids in the states...
Thats not HAM Radio... because I am using the POTS phoneline....Right????????? Right????????? I mean..If their is ANYTHING other than RF in the link....Its not "ham radio"..... Right??????:
Wow, Trip is on a trip...
Dear Trip,
Phone patches that were run by old hams were being conducted under the FCC rules which governed "Amateur Radio", therefore they were considered "Amateur Radio" regardless if the "last mile" was POTS.
As I see Echolink, the use of RF is incidental and the medium is not under the FCC rules that govern Amateur Radio, sooooo Echolink is an unlicensed service. Seems to me the operators of Echolink require the ham ticket not the FCC.
Doesn't make it right or wrong, but it ain't Amateur Radio by any definition.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 29, 2009
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Sooo... If I use the internet to link.. I ain't a ham...
Right??? damn... FM again.. what was I thinking?
As you said... twist my words...hihi
hahahahahaha... what a bunch.
73
KT4WO
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 29, 2009
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Also...
Ya'll are the same guys who say what K1MAN is doing
is illegal... yet..the FCC does nothing(and ..no..
I dont approve of him) Its the same thing the ARRL does
every day..thats why they dont stop him.
Again...twist my words... hihihihihi
KT4WO
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KT4WO on December 29, 2009
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I'll just stop this...Its like taking candy
from a baby... I just take the "wrong" side to
get ya'll wound up...
I am "trolling"... hahahahahaha...
Ya'll are alot of fun.
73 and see ya on the bands,,,,maybe echolink...
hahahaha...
Trip - KT4WO
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WG8Z on December 29, 2009
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For those who posted that any QSO involving internet tunneling whatsoever is not Amateur Radio,,well,,,your opinion is not a valid Amateur Radio comment by your own admission, since it was posted using the internet...
Couldn't resist hihi
Sorry for being off topic.
73
Zed
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by WB6THE on December 29, 2009
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I've done Echolink from hotel/motels.
Their router needs to be able to DCC your router-assigned
IP. If the hotel/motel is very stupid you can get into
their router and do it. I've done it. If they properly
lock things up you're... at disadvantage. Perhaps you
could get an "air-card". a PCMCIA wireless modem via a
cel-fone provider which wouldn't use the hotel/motel
system at all.
But that's all that I know about that...
#############
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KC8VWM on December 29, 2009
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I have an old network card with a BNC connector on it..
So, do I connect my antenna to that?
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KH6VP on December 30, 2009
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Thanks for all the funny answers; the clever answers; the facetious answers; the knowledgeable answers; the rest.
My point had to do more with philosophy than port 80 per se; I know about SKYPE; I use it. I know about the other solutions too. None of them is hindered in my hotel room. I can even use Apple's iChat (and this is not easy but is doable). I can exchange video with my kids no problem.
My point has to do with the future and adapting to it. We need to turn the table so that ham radio remains exciting and entertaining to learn and use.
One day none of us will be here; Echolink however MAY hopefully stay around. While the world around us gets around restrictions (as every company seems to do, Microsoft, Apple, Adobe etc etc) and we don't (stick on special ports etc) ham radio and echolink will die a quick death. I am sorry; only when we move with the times, we can move on.
I know this gets us into a whole new ballgame, but imposing restrictions to satisfy purists instead of doing everything to enable users is just plain stupid.
For me, if echolink doesn't work from my environment, I just don't use it. And am sure others will do the same. In turn, ham radio will not be used much either. If I don't use it, then my kids will not use echolink or ham radio either (they are both radio hams).
At the end, echolink will only be used by die-hard people who will use "I use port 5198" bumper stickers.
Peter, KH6VP
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUR on December 30, 2009
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Peter just a quick question from this end if you don't mind. Why is it that all these technological solutions that "evolve" Amateur Radio seem to be hell bent on either removing RF from Amateur Radio or integrating the Internet into it? EchoLink, WinLink, etc.
Let the kids go textually harass each-other and let radio actually be *RADIO*. SDR is a great example of true innovation, not linking repeaters to the Internet or sitting in a hotel room with a laptop and microphone and purporting to be an Amateur Radio operator.
Replacing RF with Internet links isn't evolution, it's substitution with delusion and a slight of hand. If my children get involved with Amateur Radio it will be because they are fascinated with point to point communication via RF and propagation, not pointing and clicking on England and talking into a laptop microphone and pretending to be an Amateur Radio operator.
I'm not so sure I'd shed a tear if EchoLink ceased to exist. Who knows, perhaps some would actually string up an antenna and actually get involved in the hobby.
I always thought Amateur Radio to be about *us* in control of our equipment, and aside from propagation we are. When you use these emulative Amateur "Radio" Internet services your point of control ceases to exist after the first non-RFC1918 hop.
73 - Nathan
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by W7ETA on December 30, 2009
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"What do you think? Should EchoLink offer port 80 operation so that it can be used from everywhere?"
You contacted them.
They said no to your idea.
You disagree with them.
People here have made suggestions for you to do what you want to.
Enjoy your new found freedom to use EchoLink in hotels.
I'm reminded of what a famous Science Fiction writer said about predictions: in all of the decades prior to landing on the Moon, no writer forecast about the first man landing on the Moon being televised to Earth.
EchoLink in the future? No EchoLink? Ifin ya donna die, you'll find out.
73
Bob
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4KKI on December 30, 2009
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I'm going to make a couple of comments here. They are in a more philosophical format, so have patience...
I can say that I tremendously enjoy using Echolink. Sometimes, I talk to other hams who are using a 2m/70cm/6m uplink from their radios; other times they are pc/pc with me. Either way, I enjoy talking to them. I can dx with satellites such as AO-27/SO-50/AO-51, but right now I can't afford an HF rig. Echolink allows me to talk "dx" in spite of that, and if I just want to talk to other places, most of the time the VoIP is clear and readible, except for scratchy repeaters. So, for the ham who "shouted" his reply in caps, chill out...
Enjoying the hobby is what it's about. Yes, 2 radios make it more authentic, but I enjoyed a recent conversation with a fellow in Australia tremendously. We met pc/pc via Echolink. Later, I talked with a fellow in England PC/70cm. Ham radio made that possible in both cases.
The hams who feel that "no coders" aren't real hams are also missing the point. I understand! I was an instructor in a junior college right after I received my graduate degree. I tried to force the students to act like my peers in my "select enrollment" university programs had. I was wrong. They were fellow college students; just different. The same should be said about ham radio in the 21st century, and the emergence of Echolink and VoIP. Who knows where we'll be in 10 more years? Echolink is still in it's infancy, so to speak.
Now, regarding port access. A computer engineer buddy had to change my UDP ports so I could receive in-bound signals on Echolink. He was somewhat concerned that a hacker search program would one day get a hit on the back door. Give them time. Most likely, the situation will change and people will be able to be certain of security issues and compatibility issues. Until then, value what it can do. At least that's my opinion!
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Echolink As a Learning Aid
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by KJ4KKI on December 30, 2009
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I wanted to add a couple of things. There is an eHam article about Echolink Elmers that is interesting to read. The html is http://www.eham.net/articles/4902
I am a fairly new ham. I learn things when I use Echolink as I frequently talk to more experienced hams, who volunteer information to me or answer questions while we're in a conversation. I certainly couldn't telephone one of my ham club members every time I thought of a question, but Echolink allows me to carry on a casual chat and mention things as I think of them. It also gives me an insight into how hams around the world operate.
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RE: Echolink As a Learning Aid
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by KJ4AUR on December 31, 2009
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"I can dx with satellites such as AO-27/SO-50/AO-51, but right now I can't afford an HF rig. Echolink allows me to talk "dx" in spite of that"
There's the problem, EchoLink is used as a crutch. Curious if you'll ever get that HF rig since you can emulate "DX" now using VoIP?
"I enjoyed a recent conversation with a fellow in Australia tremendously. We met pc/pc via Echolink. Later, I talked with a fellow in England PC/70cm. Ham radio made that possible in both cases."
I'm confused, how did ham radio make it possible for you, using your PC, to talk to the Australian also using a PC? It's nothing more than VoIP, you could have done the same thing on a cell phone, Skype, "MagicJack", etc. At least the fellow in Englad was using a radio.
73 - Nathan
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by OE5AKM on January 1, 2010
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Yes - and I do think EchoLink is Amateur Radio! Not
Wireless but Amateur Radio: Amateur Radio over Internet Protocol (ARoIP)!
73, Alfred, OE5AKM
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RE: Echolink As a Learning Aid
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by KJ4KKI on January 1, 2010
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In reference to the question of whether I plan to use Echolink to replace HF: Actually, I'm saving up for an HF rig right now. I hope to have one later this year. I happen to have a 40 tower by the house, and I'm looking forward to using it on HF. I can't say what other people have intentions to do. I have no intention of using Echolink as a replacement for HF, or SSB. I realize it isn't actual HF. Plus, there are some places with restricted nodes. But, if people weren't taking it seriously, there wouldn't be thousands of nodes every day when you log on.
One tenet to consider related to Echolink and other services is that while it might or might not be "real" ham radio, it does several things:
1) It promotes ham radio. You get enjoyment from talking to people far away, or just a couple of states over IF you have no other means. That promotes additional interest in the hobby...I mean lifestyle! You do have to be a licensed ham to use it; making it a restricted access site, e.g. has to be affiliated with ham radio to some degree.
2) You can indeed link up VoIP--be it a local VHF node, or other means. I talked to a Korean ham who was on his radio uplink to a satellite. My pc hit an AMSAT satellite node link that connected us. I'm pretty sure that if I used my Arrow II, I couldn't have contacted Korea from Kentucky! :) In short, it was totally cool. Depending on your definition, it was a limited form of dx, as there was a satellite used with inter-continental contact.
3) I've talked to lots of hams on Echolink and we got to talking and I learned a lot of interesting information about them and where they live, as well as things that will help me with HF, as well as improving FM stuff.
A caveat to this is the recent HAARP show on Jessie Ventura's Conspiracy Theory. He went on about how they wouldn't let them into HAARP and the security looked nervous...that they were hiding something. I talked on Echolink to a guy in Alaska who is on some sort of conservation oversight board that deals with HAARP property. He said that the only reason the camera crew wasn't allowed into the facility was that they did not make advance plans with the right people...that you couldn't just walk up to the front gate and come in. He informed me that he could see the facility, given advance preparation and clearance. Ventura didn't go through proper channels, and HAARP wasn't hurting anything.
4) New hams will also be intimidated. I vividly remember my 1st key and call on VHF. I was somewhat nervous. Talking to other places on Echolink allows newbies to gain a level of confidence, to apply to radio transmissions.
5) I'd like a brand new truck. Right now, I've got my 11 year old Dodge. I'd like an HF rig, but right now, Echolink helps me bridge the gap between yakking on the nightly net and actually talking to people on the other side of the world, something which is generally cooler than finding out how many cups of coffee Bob had for breakfast...
6) Finally, if the HF bands are crappy, Echolink allows one to still talk to people in the interim.
Utilize Echolink to as much as you choose to. Enjoy its benefits.
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Make it work already...
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by KF6QEX on January 3, 2010
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"The EchoLink people feel that ports should be used as specified and not as companies do to bypass restrictions due to firewalls etc."
It's great they feel this way. Now enable it to work on 80 and be done with it.
What is it with all the Napoleons of the world?
As if having to deal with deed restrictions, CC&R or HOA and other such lint wasn't annoying enough, now we have "Port restrictions" and the feelings of the Port Napoleons to worry about.
As for those other companies like real media, skype etc. using port 80....
geez...they keep doing stuff like that they'll never get anywhere !! :)
As as for port 80 being specified for text only...have they used a browser recently? There is a lot of non text coming down though that port 80 !!
My turn to feel. I feel better now :)
Dimitri
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KX8N on January 9, 2010
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To me, it's amateur radio as long as there is RF somewhere in the chain of communication, such as operator 1 --> FM radio --> repeater --> EchoLink --> computer --> operator 2. Otherwise, modes such as SSTV is not REAL amateur radio, either.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by K3SSB on January 10, 2010
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Soilent Green is people!! It's people!!!!
No silly... Soilent Green is finger lick'n GOOD!
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N9AMI on January 10, 2010
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Try using it with a WIFI Max type ISP. You will never get it to work. I gave up on it so I run my link via 56K. Works good enough for what it is. And please no qsls from echolink they go in the circular file.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KB1TGQ on January 14, 2010
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I just got my first working radio; a mobile 2m which will (weather permitting) get installed Saturday.
That said I wonder how Echolink isn't "real" radio. At work I use a console that connects to a computer that connects through a phone line to a radio that connects to the transmitter through phone lines. Our entire system is tied together with phone lines, computers, repeaters and remote radios; it's still a radio system. From what I understand of Echolink I'm using a similar system to tie into a remote repeater sites.
Am I missing something?
David
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4AUQ on January 14, 2010
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What you have described is just like a cell phone system. Real Ham Radio is when a signal bounces off the atmosphere. As long as you can show somewhere in your system that there is an HF rig in the loop, then you are a HAM. Echolink is like an exclusive internet chat room for HAMs only. It is an alternate means, other than radio, to communicate. It is useful, but it is not HAM Radio.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KJ4KKI on January 14, 2010
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It doesn't even have to be HF. I was on my pc this morning; hit an Echolink node that was relayed via a 440 repeater. I talked to a guy on the other end of the state about the bad weather. I've talked to people all over the world. Some had radios on the other end; some only had (or were using) their pc. We had a great time. SSTV and other digital modes, as well as Echolink are expansions of a truly great hobby/way of life. Most people agree that an RF signal has to be in there somewhere to be "real" ham radio? Then, maybe Echolink pc-pc is "practice" ham radio... All I know is if I use my pc to hit a pc node in Haiti and find out info on how they are doing, that was done because Echolink was there and I was allowed to use it because I had a ham radio ticket. It's available and free. Enjoy it and decide for yourself. I like it either way.
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RE: EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KB1TGQ on January 14, 2010
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I plan to continue using EchoLink, if a computer patch to a UHF or 800 MHz transmitter is a radio system at work it's a radio system at home IMHO. There is still a repeater in there transmitting radio waves. I grant that chatting on line is not radio, but that is only one function of EchoLink. Doesn't mean that EchoLink will be my only access to repeaters, but it is one method.
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by KF7FWP on January 14, 2010
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To truly make Echolink work "everywhere", SSL or HTTP ports would allow a wonderful firewall penetrating no configuration necessary link to the echolink servers. SSL would be more appropriate than HTTP because you could transit virtually any payload inside an SSL packet. Unfortunately, encapsulating and transiting SSL packets present 2 distinct issues. Overhead and lag. The echolink project would need to require so much more out of the end user and from their own hardware. SSL on top of the voip operations would significantly increase the computational requirements of the process. Second, lag would pervade the system. Slow connections and missing packets would wreak havoc on the state of the connection and likely to force tcp resets to realign the data stream. UDP is built for something like voice transmissions. As we all know we can copy over noise to a certain extent and udp functions like that. It is unfortunate that echolink is built on this technology but it is a very effective and efficient means to the end of having voip being linked to repeaters. 20 years ago it was a dream. Now between 40 and 60 percent of the US has broadband and around the world 1 in 7 has access to the internet.
I am truly sorry that most internet connections are so locked down for failure to adapt to the current technology forces it. The ham community goes further within the constraints of the prescribed rules and hasn't ever suffered with failure to innovate. Echolink and IRLP deliver on quality and control that no other voip product can claim.
73's
KF7FWP
Aaron
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EchoLink Working Everywhere?
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by N4LRA on January 16, 2010
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I do not understand what all of the squabble is about. The echolink client has a proxy tab in the setup menu. Just choose one of the many public proxy servers when you are traveling.
It is very simple to choose one that is avaiable. If your first try fails then try again. I have never yet been unable to find an available proxy. Once you connect, forget the firewall issues.
Best 73 to all.
Bill
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