Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
from
James Zappulla, N1FDX
on
January 30, 2010
Website:
http://home.comcast.net/~n1fdx/
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
Here’s an idea for hams that have antenna restrictions or maybe
just want an indoor backup antenna system. I’ve played with the
Slinky toys in many different antenna configurations and have
had good results. I always take a few with my FT-817 and a tuner
on vacation.
I’ve had 2 in my attic for many years as a backup and they work real well on
40 thru 10 meters with the autotuner in my IC-756ProIII and 75 meters with the
MFJ-949E manual tuner. The Slinkys are stretched out to about 18 ft per side with a
guide string running down the middle for support, about 25 ft above ground in the attic.
I thought this time I would take the Slinky to the next step. I remotely
mounted a LDG Z-100 autotuner in the attic at the antenna. I directly
coupled the tuner to a W2DU 1-to-1 balun with a dual male adapter then
fed the Slinky. I use alligator clips bound with wire ties around them to
connect to the Slinky.
The Z-100 model I purchased came setup to
work with most Icom radios that have the remote
antenna control connector on the rear of the
transceiver. (many models available)
I lengthened the control cable to reach the attic by
creating an extension to the Molex connector that
would normally connect to the rear of the
transceiver and connected it to my IC-706 for
the on-air test.
I first tried to see on what bands it would tune and
it seemed to have no problem on 80 thru 6 meters
and even 160. Over the next few days I made
numerous contacts from E.MA. throughout the
U.S. as far as the west coast and into Europe on
20 and 40 meters. A few more local on 75 meters.
I’m was pretty happy with that performance.
My intention for writing this article is to share an antenna idea with fellow hams especially with antenna restrictions etc. It’s an idea I tried and had good results with, use your imagination and add you own spin. I’ve used the Slinky in many different configurations, horizontal dipole, vertical dipole and extended to as little as 5 ft per side. Give them a try.
73, See you on the bands!
Jay, N1FDX
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KC8ZEV on January 30, 2010
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What is it with the Slinky that some Hams just love? Quit stealing toys from the kids and use copper wire in the attic. Yes, it can work, but there will be a child uprising when they realize they are Slinky-less! Go to Lowes for your wire, not your kid's toy box!
73
KC8ZEV
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by N2RRA on January 30, 2010
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Good effort on the article but....
I've thrown up 12 awg copper wire that cost less than the slinky and obtained the same results. Even if I had to bend the ends on 66' ft. of wire I could still work the South Pacific on 100 watts CW and just as easy on digital modes.
Try a length of 12awg or smaller copper wire and saves a few bucks.
73!
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N6MYA on January 30, 2010
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I have done the same thing years ago with a Kenwood tuner and a TS-140. I lived in a condo at the time and it worked very well. The reason to use the slinky over regular wire is that when stretched out, the slinky is continuously (sp) loaded in a pretty regular fashion due to its' design, allowing you to get on the low bands with not much length. My condo antenna was actually two slinkys on each leg that i had welded together.
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by KF4HR on January 30, 2010
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There's a theory that RF gets dizzy and ends up just falling off slinky dipoles, rather than radiating... just a theory. :^))
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KB2DHG on January 30, 2010
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HEY good article. Don't let these nay sayers detur you.
Only people that have real restrictions can truly appreciate the challenge of having an antenna.
If the slinky works for you then GREAT!
I am fortunate enough to have had permission from my condo board to have a wire antenna up on the roof. So I chose a G5RV. I am having good results but hey, it's not a beam on a tower!
A slimnky surly works when it comes to restricted space. If you have room to spread a wire all the better. BUT, I applaud you and this article and thank you for the information. GOOD DX to you 73
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N0HR on January 30, 2010
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Do you recall the (June 2000?) QST article by Force12 owner N6BT - "Everything Works" - in which Tom demonstrated that you can use a lightbulb mounted on a pole as an antenna. I think he worked all continents on 10m CW in a day or two with 120W.
The question you must ask yourself is "compared to what?"
So, if you feel compelled to promote an antenna type (such as the Slinky) which has little or no data beyond "I worked some DX on it", then I'd suggest that you conduct the test yourself.
For example, as the others have suggested, install a wire dipole in the attic and make a comparison. Perhaps you can cook up another antenna design that is stealthy but functional... a hidden outdoor vertical?
a horizontal wire loop in the attic?
test it vs the dipole and the slinky and let us know your findings.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N8NSN on January 30, 2010
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Slinky are only about $2.50 each. Not to mention the portability and convenience of Slinky type set ups. Sure beats staying off the air due to HOA or apartment situations. Will it perform as well as a full sized dipole cut for a particular band in the air at many multiple 1/4 wave lengths? Most likely not, but if a set of slinky are the only option... It is certainly worth a try. If you were several floors up in a building... you just may be surprised.
However, Slinky are made of a galvanized metal; which is not the best choice for radiating a signal. BUT, they do work... I have had slinky, helical wound, doublets in many attics over the years. The trick is to stretch them out nice and far. At one point I acquired 300 feet of copper weld. I wound it super tight on a 2 inch piece of PVC to "tighten its diameter". Once I released it it sprang back to about a 4 or so inch diameter. I used it in the same fashion as the previous galvanized slinky... I noticed an improvement. It just seemed quieter than the galvanized arrangement. BTW, I only used 100 feet of copper weld per side for my helical doublet. Stretched out it was only about 35 feet per side.
I have had linear loaded doublets in many attics. The linear loaded doublets were MUCH harder to install with all the crawling back and forth through the fiberglass (not fun and VERY itchy). The Slinky... one trip to the edge of the attic to connect the support strand and pull the slinky out on the way there, per side, and wallah. I had experienced absolutely no differences in performance between a linear loaded doublet or the slinky doublet.
BTW, the tuner at the feed point of the antenna is a nice touch... good job. The Slinky doublets here have always been fed with 300 ohm ribbon feeders (works just fine in doors) and a link coupled tuner in the shack.
Thanks for the article. Hope it has a few, "Ah gee, I can't have an antenna so, I'm cashing in my gear" types; thinking of a workable solution and staying active in the best hobby on earth.
N8NSN . .
.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K9ZF on January 30, 2010
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Great article, and a fun antenna!
I like the remote mounted tuner idea, very cool. Remote mounting the auto tuner makes this a very convenient antenna to use, and it also virtually eliminates problems with feedline radiation.
I think a lot of folks are missing that this is a "loaded" or shortened antenna. Think of the slinky as one big loading coil. The continuous coil allows N1FDX to use this antenna even on 160 where it is a VERY short antenna. Yes, a 60' doublet of 12 ga. wire would likely work as well, or better, on forty meters, but the slinky should be a better load on 80 & 160.
Yes, far from optimum, but if you are limited to an indoor antenna this one should work very well.
Another great niche for this is for a "backup" antenna. If a wind or ice storm takes out your main antennas, this one would keep you on the air.
Great job Jay, keep up the good work!
73
Dan
--
Amateur Radio Emergency Service, Clark County Indiana. EM78el
K9ZF /R no budget Rover ***QRP-l #1269 Check out the Rover Resource Page at:
<http://www.qsl.net/n9rla> List Administrator for: InHam+grid-loc+ham-books
Ask me how to join the Indiana Ham Mailing list!
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N5ZTPN5ZTP on January 30, 2010
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some are concerned with the cost of slinkys, try yard sales, i have bought dozens of them at yard sales and flea markets for 25 and 50 cents each. do not be a slinky hater. if it works use it
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KA2DDX on January 30, 2010
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Years ago I lived on the second floor of a two story apartment. So, I used a slinky antenna, not stretched out very far, as the apartment was a small two bedroom arrangement. I used a Heathkit SB-102 and a small tuner. The slinky loaded on a couple bands and I was able to make contacts. I also used the slinky with a Heathkit HW-8 and made contacts also. But, the receive performance from this arrangement was poor, probably because I couldn't get the slinky stretched out more than 15 feet due to space limitations in the apartment. So,just be aware of limitations.
One night, in a contest, I worked one west coast station after another on 20 meters with the HW-8 (qrp) and the slinky.
Conclusion: give it a shot and see how it works out for you.
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by KE5LDO on January 30, 2010
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I have used the Slinky@ dipole for years as a receiving antenna for SWL. I also have used the Slinky@ as a QRP transmitting antenna with no major complaints. I cannot remember the name of the book with the idea, but it was published in the late Fiftie's by a US Navy radio operator that used it aboard ahip as a vertical with alligator clips for determining the coil impendance, selecting the best coil for the lowest SWR. It was hung from one of the masts. Just my experience with it.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
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by K0BG on January 30, 2010
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It seems the universal antenna measuring tool is how many DX contacts said antenna allowed the user to make. That's usually followed up with a statement about how good the SWR is. Think about this.
Under the right conditions, you can work around the world with just one milliwatt of effective radiated power (ERP). Dump 100 watts into your average air-cooled dummy load, and the leakage can easily exceed one milliwatt. The best part is, the SWR is dead flat!
A post to the previous article suggested using a vehicle-mounted CB whip driven with a 1:6 balun. A few minor calculations later (assuming a few unknowns), the ERP is perhaps 100 milliwatts on 80 meters. So, if you can work the world with just one milliwatt, with 100 times the ERP, it should be a cinch!
The point here is, the ability to work another station (wherever they may be), or tune the antenna to a low SWR, means absolutely nothing! If it proves anything, it's gullibility.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
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by W5WSS on January 30, 2010
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The point is that he was resourceful. I like how he resolved the tuner at the feed point this completely eliminates the highest losses problem of the system the feed line "after the tuner" there is none. I know that contacts are your objective and you are doing that so good job. The many indoor antennas that I have built not for more signal as measured in erp but for educational reasons and for plain ole fun has been from 18 ft low above the dirt. The objective of pressing the all band indoor antenna into service has led to balanced doublets and very short feed line closed loops vertical fed very short feed line. hex or cobbweb folding of the open balanced doublet and very short feed line all with the aide of a wide range t match tuner and 1:1 current balun located after the output variable capacitor have been better performers=less problematic for the tuner etc. There really is not anything magical about these antennas that radiate more than a milliwatt ehem. Have fun be careful keep the output safe 73.
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by KD7PTN on January 30, 2010
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When I first updated and got my General ticket. I wanted to get on HF so bad. I purchased a IC-701, sent the XYL to Wal-mart to get me two slinkys at a cost of $1.87 ea..
I configured a inverted V dipole and fed with RG-8U through a dirty balun. I also puchased a manual tuner. I stretched the slinkys as far as they would stretch. I found that on 20m -10m I could tune the slinky by allowing it to shorten up. just took some playing around. rest of the bands I used a tuner. I worked several states with this arrangement. I did find that there are two downfalls of the slinky antenna in the weather.
1. it rusts.
2. over time it looses its spring and will not slink back.
however, put inside an attic I think is the ticket. Way to Go! 73 and Good Hamming.
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by N4JTE on January 30, 2010
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K0BG has concluded that your antenna is useless and a waste of space because you had the audacity to mention a few dx and stateside contacts. I however applaud you and appreciate your experiment and the Ham spirit needed to get on the air with severely limited space and resources. Your use of a remote tuner is excellant advice to an attic bound Ham and will improve their chances for more contacts by lowering the feedline losses etc.
I have a feeling that you will find a way to expand your antenna experiments, hopefully beyond the attic, and I look foward to your further adventures.
Regards,
Bob
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by W3JKS on January 30, 2010
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I suspect that a pair of slinkies in the attic will out-radiate most mobile setups -- as long as you don't have a problem with RF pickup and the fact that your fluorescent lights stay on at night, go for it!
More power, Scotty!
73s,
john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
(who once used a couple of coils of razor wire on the ground, auto-tuner and an ALE radio to prove a point)
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by WB4QNG on January 30, 2010
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I run two slinkies on each side of my attic dipole. I use an old Dentron manual antenna tuner and it will work every thing from 10 thou 160. It is stretched out to about 45 foot. The thing is actually resonant around 3900. I also have hamsticks for 10, 15 and 20 in my attic. I have boxes of QSL cards and even have three first place certificates where I won my power and section in the 10 meter contest. I am happy, my XYL is happy, my neighbors are happy and the local authorities are happy. I have never said and I believe the author will agree that you can compare the slinky to a 100ft tower with mono beam antennas on them. The fact is if you are restricted the antenna will get you on the air. Like your idea of the turner at the antenna.
Terry
WB4QNG
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by K5END on January 30, 2010
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"Under the right conditions, you can work around the world with just one milliwatt of effective radiated power (ERP)."
Work the antipode with one milliwatt ERP, eh?
Well, then (I ask rhetorically) what is all the fuss about inefficient, lossy or poorly designed antennas?
By that rationale, the effort required for a super-efficient antenna is a waste.
I know the answer, so don't bother explaining.
I'm raising this to make a point.
Some will get the point, and the ones who don't will instead respond with an explanation. Let's see who that is.
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by K5END on January 30, 2010
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To the author, good article, by the way.
I enjoyed reading it.
Your photos are very, very good and your text is structured beautifully.
Looking forward to your next article.
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by K8SOR on January 30, 2010
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Back in 1960, my dad and I stretched a pair of slinkys across a wall in the living room, hooked them to the rig and worked lots of stations. True they weren't as good as the dipole up abour 40 ft, but they did work. I think the real thing here is "A poor antenna is a lot better than NO antenna".Not every one has a big yard and room lots of antennas. I have over an acre, no restrictions. I remember living in a dorm room where NO outside antennas were allowed.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N3WAK on January 30, 2010
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Great article! It goes to show you that one doesn't need a 75' tower and three element beam to have fun on HF. Thanks for reminding us that one doesn't need an expensive, commercial antenna system to put out a signal.
Sure, some of the guys are suggesting that you should have used plain old copper wire. But look on the bright side--if the power goes out in a big storm, you can pull down your Slinky antenna and while away the time with it. You, your kids, the XYL, and your neighbors can have lots of fun with the Slinky. But the guys with conventional wire attic dipoles? They're going to be in the dark and have nothing to play with. Your antenna is capable of serving double duty, both as a FB antenna and as a back-up home entertainment system.
Great idea to use a Slinky! 73, Tony N3WAK
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by HAMMYGUY on January 30, 2010
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I like the idea. It shows ingenuity and he had a lot of fun doing it.
This is the reason I won't write articles for eham. It seems to be the main purpose of some on the site to rain on everybody's parade. Unless the article is written with boring high tech buzz words that only somebody in a particular industry would know, it is almost guaranteed to be picked apart.
To some the proof is in the pudding. If James is making contacts with his Slinky antenna, is enjoying himself building and experimenting, then I would certainly want to hear about it.
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by N4JTE on January 30, 2010
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"CAVEAT: All antenna evaluations are purely subjective and as we all know, to the ham loading up a slinky in his attic a full size dipole will be nirvana."
The above was from an eham article I wrote in 2006,comparing 5 or 6 wire antennas, still more than valid today.
This article from N1FDX is the ESSENCE of ham radio experimenting and presents in a well structured and informative manner an alternative to mass produced magic antennas for the space deprived and he does not need to provide any technical specs or field tests to be of use to the amateur in the same environment in which he is subject to.
I have built over 50 wire antennas in my time and I still find this article informative, perhaps some of us can do the same.
Bob
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by WB2WIK on January 30, 2010
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Slick system and nice article.
You didn't mention where you got the slinkies, though (unless I missed something) and it would be interesting to know that.
They vary a lot! I've seen some that are plastic (obviously not great for antennas), and some that are just raw, unplated steel (probably rust away pretty quickly). Then, I've also had ones that are zinc plated and will last outdoors in the rain for years, and probably indoors forever.
What was the source for yours?
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by K8ZO on January 30, 2010
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Not taking a stand on good or bad, but Google brass slinky. Lots of them made out of brass out there. Some already made into a dipole antenna.
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by N0VUB on January 30, 2010
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I currently live in an apartment and am not allowed to put any antennas up outside. I erected a frame using pvc pipe each horizontal leg 10 feet in length with slinkys in a 90 degree dipole configuration. It's fed with a balanced feed from a manual tuner. Transmits fair with 100 watts but receive is tough. I did work a station in Georgia last weekend and have worked a few stations here in Nebraska with out much difficulty. Slinkys can work!
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by K0FF on January 31, 2010
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Respect the ends of all indoor antennas, high voltages exist.
Have fun
Geo>K0FF
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by WX7G on January 31, 2010
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HAMMYGUY, you are right about so many negative comments to each eham article.
That is why I wrote one and only one eham article. I get $100 from AntenneX for the same type of articles and receive no negative comments from the nattering nabobs of negativity.
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by N5BEW on January 31, 2010
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I used 2 slinkys as a dipole fed with ladder line in the attic in a place I rented. The entrance to the attic was luckily in my apt. It tuned 75 on up just fine. I tried coax first that arced and sparked the tuner. Ladder line played really nice.
Ken KC5OU
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by N0YXB on January 31, 2010
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Thanks for contributing. Some people forget this hobby is to be enjoyed and seem to derive happiness from being critical. If you are enjoying yourself, that’s all that really matters. Well done.
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Slinkys are for Kids!!!
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by KA4KOE on January 31, 2010
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What walks the stair without a care
It shoots so high in the sky.
Bounce up and down just like a clown.
Everyone knows its Slinky.
The best present yet to give or get
The kids will all want to try.
The hit of the day when you're ready to play
Everyone knows it's Slinky.
It's Slinky, It’s Slinky
for fun it's the best of the toys
It's Slinky, It’s Slinky
the favorite of girls and boys.
------
What walks down stairs, alone or in pairs, and makes a slinkity sound?
A spring, a spring, a marvelous thing! Everyone knows it's Slinky.
It's Slinky, it's Slinky. For fun it's a wonderful toy.
It's Slinky, it's Slinky. It's fun for a girl or a boy.
It's fun for a girl or a boy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB9a3OkHvmA&feature=related
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by N8RGQ on January 31, 2010
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K0BG wrote
"It seems the universal antenna measuring tool is how many DX contacts said antenna allowed the user to make. That's usually followed up with a statement about how good the SWR is. Think about this.
Under the right conditions, you can work around the world with just one milliwatt of effective radiated power (ERP). Dump 100 watts into your average air-cooled dummy load, and the leakage can easily exceed one milliwatt. The best part is, the SWR is dead flat .
A post to the previous article suggested using a vehicle-mounted CB whip driven with a 1:6 balun. A few minor calculations later (assuming a few unknowns), the ERP is perhaps 100 milliwatts on 80 meters. So, if you can work the world with just one milliwatt, with 100 times the ERP, it should be a cinch!
The point here is, the ability to work another station (wherever they may be), or tune the antenna to a low SWR, means absolutely nothing! If it proves anything, it's gullibility.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com "
Get your facts straight on what I said ! Number one I said UNUN not A BALUN ! Number two I was talking 6 m to 20 m for A stealth Antenna ! Number 3 I was making A point that if you do your home work sometimes you can use A UNUN or A BALUN instead of A remote Antenna Tuner to get A station on the AIR for reduced cost .
On to more importent things . The slinky dipole is A good old idea . This could be expanded on . Take and run them around the perimeter . Feed it with A 12 to 1 BALUN and at 180 degres point away from the feed point use A 800 ohm Resistor . Depending on the size of the room you could have A very BROADBAND Antenna that wouldn't need the use of A remote Antenna Tuner that would cover down into rhe lower bands .
When A HAM has A will to get "ON THE AIR" there is always A way ~
73 ,
Terry
N8RGQ
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by G3LBS on February 1, 2010
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I wouldn't buy a slinky antenna myself, but for those who asked where to buy, they are for sale near here at http://www.radiomart.com/john_p__deal_of_the_day.htm from Hirsch's shop in Williamsville, Buffalo, Western NY, about 40 dollars I think. www.radiomart.com will get you there.
Unfortunately, I am a member of a strange cult which forbids lossy expensive coax and hot baluns, so I would use open wire line, homemade of course, but with a true differential tuner and an MFJ dual ammeter, which is also almost homemade, since mine needed its meter superglued, and poured smoke when I RF'd it, admittedly at high power.
W2/G3LBS AKA Buffalo Gil, now exalted to Grand Island Gil.
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by K0BG on February 1, 2010
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Terry, it doesn't make any difference if it is a balun or an unun. The basic promise; it's still a voltage device. Even under very low power, the transformer will saturate, get hot, and become very lossy. Most of the time, the ferrite material is ruined in the process.
If you take the time to model the antenna (don't forget the add the feed line), you'll see why it doesn't work well.
Larry, the issue isn't about any antenna being better than none. I'll concede that. And is isn't about ERP. To me, the issue is one of getting the best out of what you have at hand. In far too many cases, suggestions are made that are actually worse than what the person is using now. The CB whip and unun idea among them.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
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by KA4KOE on February 1, 2010
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Again, read the magic words....
It's Slinky, it's Slinky. For fun it's a wonderful toy.
It's Slinky, it's Slinky. It's fun for a girl or a boy.
It's fun for a girl or a boy.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K2FOX on February 1, 2010
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By the responses to your article it's obvious this antenna is not for everyone, but I like it. The best part is how easy it will be to take down., it coils itself right up. No wires to roll up, get tangled. Great for a quick portable setup.
Thanks.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by WB2LOU on February 1, 2010
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Great job !!
I have made slinky antennas a number of times for remote temporary locations. I have even used metal stove pipe, a screen door, and yes a set of old bed springs too !!
How many ever tried to load a maple tree? I did that too. Do a Google search to find out how.
I think the point missed by many is that you are having fun and making contacts.
I say if you can load up a paper clip, go for it !!
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Lots of variables in the attic
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by KI4MCW on February 1, 2010
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I tried using a Slinky dipole in my attic as my first HF antenna. Just as the author describes, I used Nylon rope through the center of the coils to bear the weight of the Slinkys horizontally, and fed it with a 4:1 balun and coax to my auto-tuner and rig on the ground floor. I experimented with various degrees of stretch, and with using two Slinkys per side to provide extra electrical length. For comparison, I also tried a 10-20m OCF dipole, and a 20m horizontal loop in the same space.
My experience was that none of these would perform worth a hoot. I could barely hear anything, and actually thought my rig was defective... until I tried a dipole outside at about 25 feet. Suddenly I was hearing signals from all over the world.
I suspect that my problem was simply that there is already a lot of metal in and around my attic - heating ducts, gutters, house wiring, phone, cable. Plus, to be fair, a lack of experience in installing, dealing with RF on the coax shield, etc. (I would light up every appliance in the house on key-down). Interestingly, a 2m/70cm mobile antenna mag-mounted to a heating duct in my attic works brilliantly, including many satellite QSOs.
Anyway, my point is that your mileage may vary. There's no harm in trying a Slinky dipole if you can get it to work with your gear at your location. Like others, I applaud the use of a remote tuner - that might help tremendously.
I don't think anyone else has mentioned - Slinkys come in little itty bitty boxes. For travellers or EMCOM folks, I have to think that sparing such a tiny space and negligible expense for a backup antenna (maybe a third-choice antenna?) would be pretty easy.
Cheers!
Rob KI4MCW
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
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by W3JKS on February 1, 2010
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You know it's time to reduce power when the smoke detector in the attic goes off. (or the brush growing in the razor wire catches fire :-)
73s,
john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams
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by K5END on February 1, 2010
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Now for the real question.
Who among us was ever able to make a Slinky walk down stairs successfully?
We tried it with several differently Slinkys, (Slinkies?) with no luck. It is a problem with the geometry of standard risers and treads.
Eventually I bought a house in the Texas panhandle that had a tornado shelter in the back yard. It was probably built shortly after the monster tornado in Lubbock in the early 70's. The stairway was very, very steep, very dangerous and probably not up to modern code.
But it sure made those Slinkys walk down the stairs. It was a beautiful thing to watch.
I know what you are thinking. Yes, there is not a lot to do in that area. We didn't even have the internet.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by AA8GK on February 1, 2010
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Wow. This guy wanted to share some information on something he did, and in return, gets blasted for it by the cerebral elite because he's using a slinky instead of 14 AWG copper wire fed with homemade ladder line. Oh, geezzzz, guys. Lighten up.
Great job on the antenna and the article. Now, go get that DX!
Pete
AA8GK
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KA4KOE on February 2, 2010
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How do you know they are members of the cerebral elite? Cal, K4JSR, and I harbor no such pretenses.
Our duty is to bring the discourse down to the dirty gutter where it belongs, and wallow like pigs in the mud, and end up smelling like pigs too (ie Return of the Hams, Sunday Afternoon Hamfest).
Back to this project......
Does it work? Yes!
Are we having fun? Yes!
Isn't this hobby great? Yes!
I applaud initiative on anyone's part to come up with something neat.
Feeleep
KA4KOE
http://www.neidlinger.us
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K4JSR on February 2, 2010
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Speaking of being piggish, I always thought that Barbara Feldon, Agent 99 of "Get Smart" fame was
very slinky. Needless to say that she would be a very complex match for any ham!
Oink! Oink! And away!
73, Cal K4JSR
PS. Clear your sinuses early. Hamfest season is near!!
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by AF6AU on February 2, 2010
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Slinky's are not a bad idea for short term use. They are great for Camping or Field Day, toss up a rope, and spread the coils, and tune up. However the toy version is made of steel alloys that have much greater volume electrical resistance than copper wire. As a novelty antenna you don't care that much about your RF going up in heat.
K8Z0 had a point of a brass slinky, a better material choice with somewhat lower resistance, and less heat loss.
In digging out the physics handbook...
Spring brass has 4.1 times the resistance of copper depending on the alloy. Toy slinkies are made of moderate carbon steel with a lot of cold working. This material has 6.9 times the resistance of copper.
The steel toy version is economical, and would be better than nothing. Finding an economical maker of flat wound springs using hard drawn copper with a silver plate would be really cool, but probably a dream. They do exist, used in higher power inductors, but not at all cheap.
I guess if you are a die-hard slinky lover you could strip the paint off a pair of toy steel slinkies, and have them copper plated at a local plating shop. You could go high Zoot and even plate silver over that creating the ultimate slinky antenna.
Note that attic antenna performance also depends greatly on the roof you have. A lot of roofing materials like tile have high levels of iron oxides or even cut bits of wire in them for strength, and they are great attenuators. I know, I have one.
Considering HOA's, a poor antenna is better than nothing, and better than having everything stolen out of your car.
JML
AF6AU
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KE7ZKU on February 2, 2010
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I have to say that the slinky looks a lot cooler than a copper wire.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K9MHZ on February 2, 2010
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I can go with anything, until someone brings up those idiotic Isotron antennas.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by W0FM on February 3, 2010
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Approaches such as this Slinky article often fall victim to today's vast technology.
Like some have already mentioned, I made my first Slinky dipole in 1962, and, over the years, it took many forms.
There were no computer programs to predict how antennas would (or wouldn't) perform and no internet sites like this to have your design instantly critiqued. Most of us built antennas (and still do) as experiments or out of necessity.
To me, the fun was (and IS) the response one gets from the other operator when you tell them that "the antenna here is two Slinkys, end-to-end, fed in the center and supported by a hank of clothes line between two peach trees".
We call it the "WOW Factor" now. It's a hobby and it's still fun.
Terry, WØFM
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K5LXP on February 3, 2010
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The idea of using a slinky as an antenna element is flawed. So do you reward a flawed article with praise or do you call the author on it?
Anyone who thinks slinkys make good antennas doesn't understand inductance and capacitance well.
The ones that do, stretch the slinky way out, so it's less (way less) than a turn per foot (as reported by numerous responders here).
If you're going to do that, then why bother using steel slinky wire instead of straight copper?
If you don't stretch it out, you will likely be worse off efficiency-wise than if you just used a piece of straight wire. So again, what benefit is the slinky providing?
*Any* modicum of research would reveal this. Not saying the author is a bad guy but he's sure getting a lesson about researching his published papers.
Why is it that hams insist on using these silly things for antennas? It's not about "any antenna is better than no antenna", it's about applying sound engineering to solve a problem. Just because you can hook up an arbitrary conductor to a tuner and make a contact with it doesn't make it a sound principle. It just proves "Everything Works" (N6BT).
The follow-on question now becomes, "Why put a crappy antenna in your attic when you can put up a better one just as easily?"
If making contacts with odd objects is the objective though, google "K0S".
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by WB4QNG on February 3, 2010
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So what you are saying is I would better off taking down my slinky. Then make me a dipole for 20 meters and use my tuner and use it on 40, 80 and 160.
Terry
WB4QNG
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by AE5MW on February 3, 2010
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My shack was located in a tin building in my back yard. Due to no heat in winter and lack of feedline to make it to the house I moved the radio and tuner to the laundry room in the back of the house and ran a single wire to the roof of the shack in the yard. I did not expect much but just wanted to load up the shed "just because it was there". Did it work? Yes. Did it work good? No! But the point is I was able to make contacts untill able to extend feedline to the house. If you can get 3 soup cans to work, Great but it might not work for me. Nice article and great pictures.
73 Mike AE5MW
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KA4KOE on February 3, 2010
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"The idea of using a slinky as an antenna element is flawed. So do you reward a flawed article with praise or do you call the author on it?"
Yes. He went to the effort, got off his duff and wrote an article. What did you do today that was positive? Now, go write an article yourself.
This is not professional peer review in a magazine. This is ham radio!
FEELEEP
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by W0FM on February 4, 2010
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I didn't have ANY sound engineering background when I was 14. Loaded up Slinkys, bedsprings, window screens, rain gutters, lawn chairs, trash cans. Made some contacts too.
I did it for the fun of it. Not because I thought I had discovered new principals of physics.
WØFM
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by NZ2K on February 4, 2010
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Good thoughts on this topic. It is nice to see a fellow ham give some insight into other variations of
an antenna like this. I had an apartment about 6 months ago and I had a 4 band trapped Williams dipole coming up the stairs and tacked to the top of the wall. The total length of the dipole was about 34 feet and the one leg was oriented in a North-Sount venue with an apex at 45 degrees and the other side of it was East to West and going at flatop configuration. I could easily pull the dipole down in 10 minutes! I worked 75 meters, yes loading the tuner as part of the circuit and also my BRAINS, and I got great results on 75 meter phone with an old Kenwood TS 520. I had worked some great propogation , about 5 years back, into Australia on 20 meters.
Now I have a house and a nice lot of the 102 foot G5RV and if that does not work, then there will be a 160 meter L going up.
73 de NZ2K, Paul
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by W8QAS on February 4, 2010
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Okay, I am a new ham with antenna restrictions. I just want to listen. Do you think if I did this in my attic it would work? I have a solid copper roof and it is a big roof. Or, should I just use the roof for the antenna? I am using a FT-101E radio.
Thanks,
W8QAS
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by WB4QNG on February 5, 2010
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On the outside chance that you are being serious if you have a copper clad metal roof you can forget putting any kind of antenna in your attic. No radio signals are going to get in or out of your attic. If you could get by with it you could try some hamsticks mounted on the roof. That copper roof would make a good ground plain.
Terry
WB4QNG
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by W8QAS on February 5, 2010
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Terry,
Yes I was serious. I talk to my local radio shop. I am going to try to run a line to the roof itself. All I want to do right now is listen so what =harm could it cause? I can run my ground to the ground and use the roof as an antenna. Since I am new to this, any suggestions would be helpful. Oh, the reason I can't run an antenna above the roof is that they didn't have radio 175 years ago and the covenant on the property prevents me from setting one up. Thanks for your reply.
Roy
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 6, 2010
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My attic is 38 ft long. I like to play with some indoor antennas. I've had wire dipoles of differnt configurations in the attic and nothing has seem to perform as well as the slinky in a Multiband situation which was what I wanted to acheive.
Thnaks for there reply.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 6, 2010
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They are cheap money and electically 60+ feet long. Not the best radiator but for travel they close down pretty small. I've had them spread to abot 5 ft per side supported on PVC setup horizontal and vertical while on vacation located in the loft of the condo and work was real happy with the performance. Into europe no problem. Mostly PSK31.
Thanks for the replies.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 6, 2010
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Thanks for the good words. It's not a tribander or a dipole at 100Ft. I wanted to acheive a multiband indoor antenna to leave connected to my IC-706 in the shack which is my backup radio. I find myself using it all the time. I don't leave outside antennas ever connected to my equipment. Bad expirence with lightning. Only have a vertical and small 6 meter beam outside right now. The slinky is allways ready and I'm never not able to make a contact.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 6, 2010
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The slinkies came from the local Toy's R Us.
There is also a mini slinky available. I have a few but have not played with then yet.
Thanks for the replies.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by K0FF on February 6, 2010
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Roy said: Yes I was serious. I talk to my local radio shop. I am going to try to run a line to the roof itself. All I want to do right now is listen so what =harm could it cause? I can run my ground to the ground and use the roof as an antenna. Since I am new to this, any suggestions would be helpful. Oh, the reason I can't run an antenna above the roof is that they didn't have radio 175 years ago and the covenant on the property prevents me from setting one up. Thanks for your reply.
Roy"
What harm can it cause?
A) In receive mode it can put a lethal electrical charge between the roof and the ground if there is any leakage in your radio. For same reason that a jumper is supposed to be installed around a water meter.
B)On transmit a spark can occur between sections of the roofing, causing a fire that will burn down the house.
Likely? No. Has it happened? you bet.
Most likely the roof is alreay grounded or has a lightning protection system installed.
Think twice.
Geo>K0FF
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This applies to any antenna
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by K0FF on February 6, 2010
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Roy said: Yes I was serious. I talk to my local radio shop. I am going to try to run a line to the roof itself. All I want to do right now is listen so what =harm could it cause? I can run my ground to the ground and use the roof as an antenna. Since I am new to this, any suggestions would be helpful. Oh, the reason I can't run an antenna above the roof is that they didn't have radio 175 years ago and the covenant on the property prevents me from setting one up. Thanks for your reply.
Roy"
What harm can it cause?
A) In receive mode it can put a lethal electrical charge between the roof and the ground if there is any leakage in your radio. For same reason that a jumper is supposed to be installed around a water meter.
B)On transmit a spark can occur between sections of the roofing, causing a fire that will burn down the house.
Likely? No. Has it happened? you bet.
Most likely the roof is alreay grounded or has a lightning protection system installed.
Think twice.
Geo>K0FF
MORE:
Let's look at some electronics for a moment.The schematic section that I have posted here:
http://www.qsl.net/k0ff/FT101/AC.jpg
shows how there is a .01 mFd capacitor from each side of he AC line cord to chassis ground. Notice that it is before the fuse even.
Old bypass capacitors are notoriously leaky to boot. This is very typical of older radios.
Next, look at the receiver input circuit here:
http://www.qsl.net/k0ff/FT101/Input.jpg
This indicates that the antenna connector goes through a few turns of the input coil to chassis ground.
The result is that the antenna ( copper roof, copper downspouts) is actually connected to the AC line through at least a .01 mFd capacitor, possibly even likely a leaky capacitor.
Next take a peek at the transmit final output circuit here:
http://www.qsl.net/k0ff/FT101/Final.jpg
The FT 101 is very similar to all tube output transmitters. The high voltage from the final is blocked from the antenna only by the coupling capacitor, marked
C23 on the schematic. These kinds of capacitors are selected for their high quality and rarely leak. Even so, the 600 or more Volts of high voltage will tend to charge up the other side of the capacitor eventually. To bypass this charge, modern rigs include a shunt inductor ( RF choke) to ground, marked L9 on the schematic.
I have seen homebrew rigs that did not include this part, and even if included, if the part is bad (open) or missing the radio will work exactly the same.
Now consider hooking this radio or any radio to a copper roof, which is connected to a copper downspout, which goes all the way down to within one foot of the ground, and person happens to be touching the downspout while barefooted.
That person is touching the AC line through a .01 mFd capacitor, or possibly touching 600 or more volts through a 1000 pF capacitor. Both 30+ years old.
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by W8QAS on February 6, 2010
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I really appreciate your feedback and from the others. As I am not in a big hurry to do anything, I am looking at all avenues. Your thoughts invoke more questions. I live in a rural area, I will win the lottery 3 times over before someone has the opportunity to touch my downspout. Is it possible for the radio to transmit when there is no mechanics attached to cause the transmit? I have no Mic or keyer attached. My downspouts go to the ground and the roof is grounded using braided copper ground wires. Other than running line out and and setting up an antenna when I want to use this (which isn't practical (and not possible in this weather), what other solutions for listening might you have? Thanks again.
Roy
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by N1FDX on February 6, 2010
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Thanks for you words Pete,
Just sharing something I had good results with and maybe help someone get on the air.
It's not a tribander on a 100ft tower.
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by K0FF on February 6, 2010
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N8QAS said:what other solutions for listening might you have? Thanks again.
Roy "
Nearly infinite. indoor antennas, loops, verticals, ground mounted antennas, the wiring in the house, the ground wire you mention, etc etc. What do you want to listen to exactly?
Geo>K0FF
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by W8QAS on February 6, 2010
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George,
I don't know what I want to listen to (other than to listen to CW and a couple of Hams on 40. I just got my license. I have so many options that I truly don't know what I want. I got into this to learn (so far that part is working)and to preserve what my grandfather started. The walls of my home are 18 inch thick brick. There is no hollow between the brick. TV signals don't get through. The wiring won't be much help either. There is not much of it and it runs only with the brick. Wouldn't the same safety issue with the roof apply to the wiring?
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by K0FF on February 6, 2010
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There have been a number of gadget available over the years that allowed the house wiring to be used as an antenna!
I don't recommend it, but it has been done.
Try a slinky inside the house. Bricks shouldn't stop 40 meters, unless they have iron ore in them>??<
For receive, any random wire run outside would work, the higher the better, even ifit is attatched to the house in some way.
There are also "active antennas" that have very small antenna rods, but are tuned and amplified for receive.
The list is literally infinite. Have fun with it.
Geo>K0FF
WPE0EEB ( SWL "license" circa 1960)
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by WB4QNG on February 6, 2010
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I have a question for you and this is just being curious. If you live in a rural area in your grand fathers house what are your restrictions on an outside antenna. As for as listening you can use about anything. You can just get some wire and string it around your room. A CB mag mount stuck on some metal. Just about anything should do. Now granted you might not here much but you should hear something.
Terry
WB4QNG
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by KH6SQ on February 6, 2010
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Just be carefull when you buy the slinky that its not the plastic kind.
HI!!!
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by W8QAS on February 7, 2010
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Terry, It is my grandfather's call sign, not the house. The house I live in came with a covenant. I can't make improvements that didn't exist in 1830. That means no antenna. The house is on the national historic register (#153, Ohio)and they are pretty strict about the outside appearance. I did try a CB antenna to listen with but I only picked up two stations and they were in Spanish. I didn't write down what the frequency was. With what has been suggested so far, what if I took some copper wire and laid it out in the center of my attic on the floor? The house is L-shaped with a 40'run east/west by 20' north/south. If I laid it on the floor, would be at least six feet from the ceiling (the copper roof). Again, thanks for your suggestions.
Roy
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RE: This applies to any antenna
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by DH5AK on February 12, 2010
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Just a hint for those inspired by the slinky antenna: An interesting alternative to the slinky springs are so called door springs which are used for electric fences by farmers. Here in Europe we can buy such door springs for some five bucks and they are able to be pulled up to five meters. They need NO additional rope as the pull force is high enough. They come in zinc galvanized (as far as I know most slinkies come in normal steel, so they will corrode with the first rain!) or even in stainless quality and they have about 2/3 of the slinkies diameter.
As far as I know such door springs are sold in the US to bridge even longer distances than just five meters but I am not sure. Just keep your eyes open. If you are in Europe you may find them here http://www.koppel24.de/tormaterial/torfeder.html
73 de Andy DH5AK
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by K3JLS on February 14, 2010
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Hi Jay,
Thanks for taking your time to share your clever and interesting design with us.
Don't let the nay sayers discourage you. If it satisfies your transmitter's PA stage and lets you make contacts across the bands, then it's obviously a winner.
73's - Joe - K3JLS
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by KL7IPV on February 16, 2010
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Good article. I have had a Slinky dipole in my attic for 7 years now. It is certainly NOT as good as my Explorer 14 was up 70 feet on the tower I had three miles away. But with a new house and a HOA, ( don't tell me about HOAs. I already know about them.) it does a fair job at radiating a signal. I use a string thru the center of mine also to support it since it spreads a total of 66 feet facing N/S. Anything you want to try that works is good. It MAY not be what others see as a "good" antenna but if YOU are happy and it works, so what? Good job! I also have a full size 40 meter dipole running E/W under my eaves. That works too. :)
Frank
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 18, 2010
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Thanks for all the good words. It's not the best, but it works. It's allways connected to my 706 and as some of you have said it makes contact, the transmitter is happy and it can't get blow down in a storm.
There has been some replies with good technical data on why it's not a efficent antenna etc. however I did not supply any technical data because it just gets you on the air.
Thanks again guys for all your replies.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KC5NYJ on February 18, 2010
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Hmmm... How many cubic feet of helium to stretch a big brass Slinky vertically.... Field Day Poleless Slinky Vertical here I come...
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by N1FDX on February 18, 2010
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Mail this to a friend!
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I have used them as a vertical dipole with a PVC rig to hold them in place extended about 7ft per side in the loft of a condo. I like your idea...go for it.
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RE: Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by KA9HJZ on February 20, 2010
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Mail this to a friend!
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I gave one to my kid to use, experimenting with different antennas is a good part of ham radio. I found out a 33 ft piece of conduit, with a homemade tuner works as good as an expensive store bought verticle and a slinky is cheaper than good copper wire.
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Remote Tuned Slinky Dipole for Restricted Hams:
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by WD9I on February 23, 2010
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Mail this to a friend!
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If there's anything I've learned from this and most other articles posted here it's do what you want to do, enjoy it and don't tell anyone else what you're doing. Now, I think I'll go build one of these projects described above but I'm not telling any of you which one!
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WHAT ABOUT THE SOLID BRASS SLINKY DIPOLES?
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by W9FBI on March 29, 2010
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Lots of talk here about the steel slinkies rusting and not being a good conductor.
What about the 1000s of Slinky Dipoles out there in the weather that are made from solid brass Slinkies that will never rust and are much better conductors than steel.
Just go on e-bay and put Brass Slinky OR SLINKY ANTENNA in their search engine.
They are absolutely beautiful when the sun shines on them. I have a 10-160 meter one at 40 feet that people can see 2 blocks away when the sun's shining on it.
Maybe they don't work as good as silver plated copper,but the Solid Brass ones are avaialble and there's no such thing as a silver plated copper Slinky (that I can find!)
I read in an article about these Brass Slinky Antennas that The Ole' Slinky Man has to order 2000 Solid Brass Slinkies at a time before Ideal Toy will order the solid brass wire to make the Slinkies for him. I also saw powder coated ones on e-bay in red,blue and green.
Last Christmas I saw Pink Powder Coated Slinky Antennas on e-bay that said "Made Especially for Hams in San Francisco".
You probably can't say that anymore though, now that we're living in The New U.S.S.A. !
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