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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events

Jack Bitzer (NL7SX) on November 2, 2010
View comments about this article!

A recent experience at an all night endurance horse ride combined with past experiences at similar events; bicycle, foot, cross country foot races, walkathons, etc. and with a critical eye toward the current political conditions in the USA suggest that the original intent of amateur radio is less important to some event organizers and our society.

Because cell phone communications are usually available in some places of the event route the ham becomes a service individual doing the work that the organizers people should be doing.

I suggest a different attitude for these 'marginal' events -- FULL SHADOWING. This mode may be also suitable for RACES/ARES situations when poor planning, tight control, and exclusivity exists.

To do this SHADOWING well, takes a first class amateur radio operator with lots of radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles.

There is also the consideration that one ham can't do a lot compared to the 'official' capability but then again, the official capability may be limited by lack of planning, resources, or intent.

Under some conditions the "SHADOWING" ham can be very useful. The events are also more enjoyable for the ham and if a couple of hams work together they can have a pleasurable 'field day' SHADOWING the event and in an emergency be instantly aware of the conditions and help if they desire.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KJ6EAD on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Don't hang around where you're not appreciated. It makes you look pathetic and desperate. Leave these marginal events completely dark.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB9TMP on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"I suggest a different attitude for these 'marginal' events -- FULL SHADOWING. This mode may be also suitable for RACES/ARES situations when poor planning, tight control, and exclusivity exists."

If you are not a part of RACES/ARES stay away! You need to be a part of those groups BEFORE the event starts. Anything less and you're in the way causing problems for everyone. And as far as exclusivity goes that is the how those organizations work, you HAVE to be a member. As the local RACES officer if I have been activated by the local government in an emergency and you are hanging around trying to shadow what my group is doing I will have you escorted off or arrested. If you want to be a part of RACES/ARES ask ahead of time, we are ALWAYS needing help!

KB9TMP - 59-605
RACES Officer
Orange County
Emergency Management
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NN4RH on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"FULL SHADOWING".

Sounds creepy. Sort of like "stalking".

If you're not needed or wanted, then don't slink around.

If you think you SHOULD be needed or wanted, then the proper time to work that issue with the organizers is well BEFORE the events.

Don't stalk the event.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by W3JKS on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
An incredibly BAD idea. Do not "hang around" a scene if you are not accepted (or wanted) as a team member. Event organizers may well interpret your presence as a security threat and alert the police.

In any case it will not enhance your reputation.

73,
john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAM3RE/AAA9SL

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K2MEN on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
What is FULL SHADOWING?
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by W5ESE on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
> I suggest a different attitude for these 'marginal' > events -- FULL SHADOWING. This mode may be also
> suitable for RACES/ARES situations when poor
> planning, tight control, and exclusivity exists.


I have a better idea; stay home and work DX!

73
Scott W5ESE
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WB6PWD on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Pathetic
Desperate
Escorted off
Arrested
Creepy
Stalking
Not needed/wanted
Bad idea
Threat
Alert the police

Yup!
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K8QV on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
That is just creepy and sad.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by N0YXB on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"To do this SHADOWING well, takes a first class amateur radio operator with lots of radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles."

That's not the kind of publicity our hobby needs. At the very least you'll be seen as some weirdo that nobody invited. More likely you'll been seen as a security threat and will have some explaining to do, to the police.

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
This article seems to come from a whacker in full whackiness. I've read this many times, and somehow--if it is a joke--it just doesn't come through as one.

On the other hand, the second reply just goes to show the other side of the coin--an 'official' volunteer that thinks more of an organization than of ham radio.

Neither one actually represents what ham radio should really be about. But, sadly, the second does represent what certain ham orginazations are trying to make ham radio become--the ARRL included.

I want no part of either.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NN4E on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
You should ease-in with "HALF SHADOWING" and see how this works for you and if you don't get arrested, maybe transistion to "FULL SHADOWING" :-)
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K0BG on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I learned a long time ago, not to stick my nose into other people's business. I also learned discretion is the best part of valor. In other words, if I don't feel welcome, I get the hell out!

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
I appreciate the comments  
by NL7SX on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
So I went to the BLM meeting in our area where these events are monitored. They have a new plan to require a $1,000,000 insurance policy and it must have a government exemption for responsibility. Sooo.... it may not be possible for hams to assist in these events anymore. Here in the desert we have a death or two a year so there is still a little concern for our fellow traveler. The local problem comes down to the organizer and their relationship with the ham radio organizer and is dependent on the quality of the event organization. Overall it is a complex mix of legalities. Emergencies fit into the ARES/RACES category. A life could be saved by an observant ham if he's operating in the area.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by AI2IA on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
There are long established reasons why ARES and RACES have the protocols that they do. The same goes for other ham radio groups that do events. Should you venture where you are not expressly invited and things go wrong, you could find yourself in the middle of a very ugly situation. It is best to leave the radio gear home and enjoy the event, or enjoy your radio gear elsewhere.

Experience over the years is valuable. This is why it is useful to a less experienced ham to listen to the advice of a friendly, well-intentioned older and more experienced ham. Elmers give good advice.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K6JPA on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
If this isn't a joke, it is pathetically sad.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by N6EY on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
This is what happens in "Full Shadowing:"

http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?p=1067

Seriously, while the sentiment is appreciated, the fact is we're best when we work as a credentialed, or at least organized and respected entity such as RACES or ARES.

Even better, we'd better serve the public and the ham community by continuing to advance the state of the communications art, providing unique, cutting edge solution to technological problems.

R/
Jason N6EY
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NA4IT on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
#1 rule of thumb...

The "served agency" should provide 100% of the liability insurance, 100% of the training, and 100% of the credentialing. If they don't, you are exposing yourself to major risk.

de NA4IT
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB9TMP on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
K1CJS said:
"On the other hand, the second reply just goes to show the other side of the coin--an 'official' volunteer that thinks more of an organization than of ham radio."

No sir that is not the case at all. If I have been called out it is because all communications between the state and county are down due to some emergency situation. That means that I am operating under authority of the EMA director, the state EMA, AND the county's sheriff. Rule number one is ALL volunteers have to be approved by the EMA director and pass a background records check done by the sheriff. If they are just hanging around they are a security risk and must be treated as such, which means the sheriff's department handles it THEIR WAY! If you had ever been involved in this type of radio 'service' you would have known this, and not been so quick to judge my feelings about our ham radio hobby and emergency service.

73 de KB9TMP
 
hamsexy  
by NL7SX on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
N6EY

My wife didn't laugh as much as I when she saw the pictures :-) and I loved the comments almost as much as those here on eHam :-) Amateur Radio IS the greatest hobby!
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events?  
by K4RAF on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"To do this SHADOWING well, takes a first class amateur radio operator with lots of radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles."

Really?

How about you all just stay home & stop embarrassing the hobby with your hand holding, message form traffic net stupidity?

You can save the world from home & not be in the way of officials trying to do their jobs! It is NOT 1970...
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K0RGR on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Ah yes, another rant from somebody making fun of hams who get together to help with public events.

Do you throw dung at people collecting trash on the highway, too? After all, they are taking a valuable job away from some convict who could otherwise be picking up the used diapers and empty coke bottles.

Some of us folks are so dumb, we actually volunteer to do things without being paid. By Gawd, that's communism!

I've sure had fun over the decades, participating in various public events. In my experience, horse rides are a pain in the tuchus. Bike races, marathons, and parades are much more fun. In this part of the country, SKYWARN provides many opportunites for excitement.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KC0SHZ on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
If they don't want you, they don't want you. Give them their rope and let it be.

Ham radio does work better than cell phones for these events, I am fully confident of this fact after my first bike ride. I had a little HT and a borrowed magmount. I was placed close to the finish so the net controller could talk to me on simplex if I couldn't get to the repeater.

I finished the race and the organizers came up and told us that we had saved them several serious crashes, especially the guy right by the finish line.

We get instantaneous communication, they get several cells that may or may not be able to handle their traffic.

That said, let it go.
 
RE: hamsexy  
by N6EY on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack --

Glad you and the XYL have a good sense of humor. BTW - nice Land Cruiser!

-- Jason N6EY
 
RE: hamsexy  
by N1DVJ on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Isn't this the same guy that came up with the 'structure' for FRS with emergency channels and protocols a few years ago?
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NA0AA on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
There's being Under Authority and acting "With Authority"

It's increasingly clear that ARES and/or RACES is in many places wearing out it's welcome. You don't force yourself into an EOC and shout "Here I am to save the DAY!".

Full shadowing? Yea, that sounds like a GREAT way to get escorted off the site.

"It's OK, I'm a RADIO OPERATOR"

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
By KB9TMP:

"No sir that is not the case at all. If I have been called out it is because all communications between the state and county are down due to some emergency situation. That means that I am operating under authority of the EMA director, the state EMA, AND the county's sheriff....."

You miss the point of the post. You can be operating under the authority of the President--or God, for that matter--but the bands you're using are still HAM bands, not public service bands. With the push for interoperability, too much has been taken for granted. 'Official' communications of the kind you're referring to don't belong on the ham bands. UN-official communications, yes. Official communications, no.

Unfortunately, some agencies and groups are using the ham bands FOR WHATEVER THEY WANT TO USE THEM FOR. Those agencies and their communications should have been kept in the public service bands. THAT is they belong, NOT on the ham bands. THAT is the point being made here.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Those agencies and their communications should have been kept in the public service bands. THAT is --where-- they belong, NOT on the ham bands. THAT is the point being made here.

Sorry, missed that 'where'. 73!
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WM9V on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
the poster needs to take the emergency courses offered by the league
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K3NG on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I hate to join the chorus of negativity, but eHam needs to exercise some more editing and quality control. The single sentence paragraphs in this article are troublesome and the article could be made to flow better. It seems like several disparate thoughts thrown together. If I was editor I would have kicked this article back for more development.

eHam, do your site and amateur radio a favor; exercise some editorial quality control and help your article submitters refine their articles.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K9WJL on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Could someone please write a nice article about antennas or receivers or something orientated towards the technical side of Ham Radio and PLEASE leave out all this crap Im seeing on the articles about net domains and "shadowing"?

I'm begging here. Will drop my subscription next renewal if things don't improve.

Thanks.

Bill K9WJL
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB4QAA on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I think 'shadowing' is a very bad idea.

If you aren't invited to play by the responsible agency, then stay away from their activity. Otherwise you are just an unwanted whacker.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KF6GZX on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
First, I have to agree with K3NG. This acticle, and the earlier article about loop antennas do not make ham radio operators look good. Perhaps this is a wake up call for some of us (myself included) to submit something, eh? You know the old adage... "Put up or shut up!"

Second, I have to disagree with the origional post (for many of the same reasons posted here). We can continue to work with public service agencies in the existing ARES/RACES structure, and create inroads to other agencies if we act professionally. "Full Shadowing Of Public Events" would not be professional. It might possibly divert much needed resources on a "terrorist threat", and make us look like a bunch of lunatics.

Why don't you just do a little research and find a club that does radio support for some events? I did! You can use it as an excercise in emergency preparedness for your radio gear. Plus, you are supporting a charity event.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WI7B on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Bill K9WJL,

I did. Stay-tuned, hopefully :)

73,

---* Ken
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KJ6EAD on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hello, police, there's some weird antenna guy on the hill watching us through binoculars. Yeah, he's wearing an orange vest but nobody here knows him and our people at the next event station said he was lurking around them too...
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by AC6RH on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Open most ham radio catalogs and you can find badges, police sirens/lights and earpiece microphones that entice you to buy with phrases like "Look like a secret agent!".

Guys in the emcomm side of our local radio club drive unmarked Ford Crown Victoria's. They keep people under surveillance and do stake outs.

These whackers even address one another with hokey military ranks and are quite a spectacle at parades, races, etc.

I'd like to encourage any hams interested in "public service" to unpack their tactical deployment kits and take off their badges and just wait until someone specifically requests their presence.

All the police have radios and all the citizens have cell phones, I think we can stop fantasizing about coming to anyone's rescue.

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KE4DRN on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
...And he has a short length of PVC pipe with wires attached that is connected
to a black toolbox in his car!

73 james

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello, police, there's some weird antenna guy on the hill watching us through binoculars.
Yeah, he's wearing an orange vest but nobody here knows him and our people at the
next event station said he was lurking around them too...
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WY3X on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Don't call me, I'll call you. HAH!

At least this article brought all the whackers out of the woodwork so they can be identified! Now the normal folks will know who to stay away from! ROTFL!!!

-WY3X
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K9CTB on November 2, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I certainly do agree with a majority of the comments here. Don't go where you're not welcome. That doesn't mean we can't continue to train ourselves to be the best emergency communicators we can be (those of us who are interested in that sort of thing). When they need us, they'll call. It'll be a last resort, but they WILL call us. It'll go something like this: "hey we really could use some amateur radio help here. It seems that telephone and internet communications are useless due to overloading and dropped circuits from half the infrastructure having been destroyed. It also looks like our big-bucks P37 1/3 radio system is also useless, since nobody knows what keylist the other guy is using because we have elevendy-three different gate-keepers! And that fancy computer voting repeater system thingy? It doesn't recognize half the responders' radios, and the half that *is* working isn't anywhere near the scene!" Sound plausible?

73,
K9CTB
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by W8JII on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Yikes!! Incredibly bad idea!

Just be available. Be ready. Participate when asked.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB2DHG on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
NO I DON'T THINK SO...
If an event needed communications then find a local club and ask for their assistance... I think your idea sounds creepy to anyone who is not a Ham...
I understand your intent but looking at it from an outsiders view and with the world situation with terrosist, I DON'T THINK SO?
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by N1DVJ on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"I think your idea sounds creepy to anyone who is not a Ham... "

I AM a ham and the idea sounds creepy to me. Creepy enough that if I were at an event that my kids were in, and I observed this going on, I'd consider taking it upon myself to bring it to the attention of authorities.

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
By KF6GZX:

"We can continue to work with public service agencies in the existing ARES/RACES structure, and create inroads to other agencies if we act professionally."

Yes, we can. That is the ONLY concept out of all that we should be doing--coming to assist WHEN ASKED TO DO SO, and staying away otherwise. There are so many different ways of communicating official traffic these days that the ham radio bands should NEVER be so used for that purpose.

Ham bands should be regarded as a secondary method of communications for non-emergency uses only. PERIOD.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KG4RUL on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"This mode may be also suitable for RACES/ARES situations when poor planning, tight control, and exclusivity exists. "

Poor Planning - does that translates to "they aren't doing it my way"?

Tight Control - so we should encourage loose cannons instead?

Exclusivity - could it perhaps be that this person had justifiably been excluded (see above) and is trying to shoehorn himself in by any means?
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB2FCV on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Why not put away the orange vests, the 'badges' and the belt full of radios and go to your local rescue squad or fire department and join up. Around here many EMS and Fire departments are ALWAYS looking for good people. I was in RACES two decades ago and I quickly realized this was an organization that would never, ever get called out. Yes, there are rare exceptions where they do get called out but they are RARE. I found the local volunteer fire department and never looked back. We answer hundreds of calls a year. The rescue squad around here answers even more than the FD. "Shadowing" on your own will would most likely just get in the way and be pushed away by the local PD at a scene plus you could be placing yourself or others in danger by being some place you're not supposed to. Please do us all a favor and stay home, don't 'Shadow' and let the people who were called out do the job they are supposed to do.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NN4E on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I have to agree that the article is rather absurd. What is even more absurd is that it was published by eHam! Do they event read them?
Probably do...judging by the comment under the title:
"Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events
NL7SX provides an interesting proposal"

Hello??? "an interesting proposal"?!?
It is only interesting if you are conducting study on mental health.
I think the guy who wrote the so called "article" is probably as crazy as the guy who gave him tribune on eHam.
What's next? Get a scanner and knock yourself out "FULL SHADOWING" fire-fighters (with a couple of buckets of water, "should desire to help") or FULL SHADOWING an ambulance with pack of band-aid in hand and maybe some IV tubing. Even better - FULL SHADOW the cops with a flare gun and spike strips. Why limit to public events - emergency services are sooo much more exciting to be "SHADOWED" and you get to use the light bar on the roof!
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by AD6KA on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I like this comment from the hamsexy.com link
provided:

"Sadly, ham whackers and OCD radio hoarder types like this case just reinforce
an image of ham radio as an oddball loser hobby to the public."


But from the article:
"To do this SHADOWING well, takes a first class amateur radio operator with lots
of radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles"

Don't forget yer tinfoil hat to keep alien mind control devices from taking over your brain.....

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K8QV on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!


"Sadly, ham whackers and OCD radio hoarder types like this case just reinforce an image of ham radio as an oddball loser hobby to the public."


Been to any hamfests recently? If you want to help save the image of ham radio, don't take any non-ham friends to those events. It scares them.
 
final comment by NL7SX  
by NL7SX on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
There are a large number of commentators that think that 'shadowing' an event means threatening ARES/RACES operations or stalking/skulking. My assumption is that there are too many perverts/kooks in the cities to recognize that Samaritans still exist. The main intended issue is liability in the case of events that the ham is requested to assist in, and the changing attitudes in the USA toward volunteerism and their relationships with appropriate 'authority'. In the example, a BLM Ranger would be a 'shadow'. For a bike race a CHP cruiser, and on the water a US coast Guard or harbor patrol vessel. These are often not available, so hams, CB'ers, volunteers (with frs and not), and others, carry the day with support, record keeping, water stops, vehicle control and as observers. I don't think we want to stop these interactions, but the liability should be foremost on the hams mind!

KB6TMP: Good luck! If you get in a bind, remember that we are all in the same boat sometimes, whether you like it or not.
AI2IA: Even if you are invited to participate it could be ugly!
N6EY: It's a Nissan Patrol.
N1DVJ: FRS is alive, increasing in usage, along with GMRS, MURS, etc.
K3NG: I recently got an A and B at the local Community College in english :-)
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by NA0AA on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Well, your clarification seemed to further muddy your waters.

Perhaps you could re-do this entire 'proposal' in a format that has a statement of the problem, a discusson of the various decision criteria and then recommendations as to how to implement this on a local/regional level.

In MY world view, shadowing is following around a guy who might need your radio channel as though you were his aide-de-camp. That will get you unpopular in a big hurry.

You then talk about water stations? like I said, outline and clarity of thought.
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by WI7B on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!

Oh my gosh! Well, only in the interest of maintaining support of eHAm.net which some paying subscriber have threatened to leave because of non-technical article, I give you my article-in-waiting. It's technical, and there may be negative comments, but what the h. Let's keep this a technical hobby, OK?

=> http://www.eham.net/articles/24844

My article-in-waiting.

73,

---* Ken
 
Hams should be heard and not seen.  
by AC6RH on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hams should stay in their shacks. The further a Ham strays from his shack the more likely he is to get involved in emcomm or some other creepy activity that reflects poorly on the rest of us.

 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by K9WJL on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Ken,
Very Nice. Thank you. This is something that I actually found enlightening and interesting.

PS I kinda thought that the little note at the bottom from Eham about approving your article was interesting too. Didn't know they actually looked at this stuff.

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KA7PLE on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
In my experience, if you are not officially part of the group doing the communications, you can cause more harm than good. No one knows you, no one knows where you are, or where you are suppose to be. Jumping into the middle of something like that, be it a fun run, or a real emergency situation, is a very bad idea.
My advice, join ARES/RACES, or your local CERT team and follow their procedures. If you want to get involved join the team, get the proper training and credentials. Don't just show up or lurk around trying to help out. You will end up being in the way. And like many people here have said, you may get arrested.
Don't be an "Ambulance Chaser" IMHO the Ham community does not need the potential bad press this kind of a situation could cause.

Ka7ple
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KC2WI on November 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Crazy idea. Unclear article. What the heck is "full shadowing' and why would you do what it sounds like it is?

Why would anyone require lots of radios, scanners, generators...? All you need is the proper equipment to do the job -anything else just gets in the way, and the proper knowledge, training, and experience.

If you or your group are not asked to help, don't take it upon yourself to do so.

If you are asked, make sure that (1) you know what you are doing with regard to emcom/public service and can effectively provide the communications function; and (2) that the organization asking understands what you/your group can and can not / will and will not do.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KW4JX on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
How can I upgrade to Advanced or Extra Shadower please?
Have any Shadowers become President?
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by AD6KA on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
NL7SX, author of this article, said:
"The main intended issue is liability in the case of events that the ham is requested to assist in"
THEN:
"but the liability should be foremost on the hams mind!"

So by being a "Full Shadowing Op" you're "helping" the official com guys *without* having to concern yourself with liability issues?

Re your Community College English grades, congratulations. But knowing a preposition from a
participle doesn't mean one can write a cogent essay,
or even a paragraph.
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
NL7SX wrote "N1DVJ: FRS is alive, increasing in usage, along with GMRS, MURS, etc."

I never said it died or wasn't. Just that it was silly to try to foster any kind of 'structure' on FRS. You obviously don't understand the realities of FRS and how it really works in the public. You're thinking of it the same way a tech testing the radio in an RF clean room would think of it when he gets a neat toy and doesn't have any idea at all of the real world.
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by K1CJS on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Just one question, NL7SX. How come you contradict the main points of your article in your 'clarification'?
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KY6R on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
What evil lurks in the hearts of men?

. . . . . . . The Shadow Knows!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow
 
Off topic response...  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
You reminded me of Flip Wilson. I used to listen to him all the time in high school.

Anyway, he had a story where he said his dad had to fill in for the announcer for 'The Shadow' at the radio station one night. His Dad gets to the mic and says "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men... The Shadow do!"

Sorry, couldn't resist. It's right up there with his story 'The Bat'
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WZ3O on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"What evil lurks in the hearts of men?

. . . . . . . The Shadow Knows!

Dang, you must be "physic"...............That's what I was gonna' say.......
HiHi ......
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WZ3O on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
""What evil lurks in the hearts of men?

. . . . . . . The Shadow Knows! ""

Dang, you must be "physic"...............That's what I was gonna' say.......
HiHi ......
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
WI7B

I read your article at

=> http://www.eham.net/articles/24844

But I have a question... OK, I'll admit I just glanced at it, but how do you differentiate the wave velocity from the water velocity?

I suppose it would work for a Tsunami indicator, but for actual current?
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
WI7B

I read your article at

=> http://www.eham.net/articles/24844

But I have a question... OK, I'll admit I just glanced at it, but how do you differentiate the wave velocity from the water velocity?

I suppose it would work for a Tsunami indicator, but for actual current?
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
WI7B

I read your article at

=> http://www.eham.net/articles/24844

But I have a question... OK, I'll admit I just glanced at it, but how do you differentiate the wave velocity from the water velocity?

I suppose it would work for a Tsunami indicator, but for actual current
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by N8AUC on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
This is just a bad idea from every conceivable angle.

The only "poor planning" would be because you failed to prepare yourself in advance by taking the proper training. By failing to do that you excluded yourself. That's the only "exclusivity" involved.

"Tight control" is usually used to keep those who aren't properly trained from causing additional unnecessary problems. Random people who just show up are considered "spontaneous volunteers". We don't exclude spontaneous volunteers. We assign them to partner with an experienced person who has the necessary training. Due to lack of training, there are restrictions on what spontaneous volunteers will be allowed to do.

If you want to get involved, get involved before you're needed so you can get the proper training, so that you can actually be an asset rather than a liability.

And I sincerely hope we never do get called out. Because for that to happen, stuff got broke and people got hurt. Neither of which are a good thing.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
 
RE: final comment by NL7SX  
by N1DVJ on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Oops! I see eHam is barfing again.

Ok, it DID prompt me for the posting multiple times, but each time it showed that it DIDN'T post. After posting, it would direct me to ANOTHER topic, and when I clicked back to this article, my post wasn't there. Suddenly, multiple post showed up.

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1DA on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I'll bet he has a gold plated "amateur radio callsign badge".
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1DA on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
How many rubber duck boxes do ya have to have to be designated a "first class" amateur?
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NO6L on November 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
To: Jack Bitzer (NL7SX)

Don't go away too soon. You know, Jack (NL7SX), it has to be said, and I might as well be the one. You remind me, in blinding clarity, of a fictional character on the Phil Hendrie Show, Jay Santos of The Citizens Auxiliary Police ( http://www.philhendrieshow.com/classic-clips/category/jay-santos ), who gets into all kinds of trouble while trying unsuccessfully to enforce the law as interpreted by him and his "Sub-Commander" busybodies. He, as a fictional character amuses me. And you, not being fictional, give me cause for concern. By the way:

1. Just what is it with your obsession with unlicensed radio services.
- FRS is limited to milliwatts, frustrated moms and foul mouthed bubblegummers.
- MURS is VHF CB with Walmart jealously guarding Ch4 instead of using real business radios.
- GMRS is quickly devolving into technologically advanced cavemen, sound effects and all.
And in the middle of it all is "Jay Santos" valiantly trying to unite them into a cohesive "Disaster Response Militia" (DuRM). Did I miss something? No? Good.

2. So, you went to college to learn English. You have my sincere congratulations. But like most, I picked it up in kindergarten and grade school. I hope you won't hold that against me.

3. Please, save yourself the grief and trouble and don't "Shadow", full or otherwise, me or my friends on the frequencies we hang out on down here in the AV. You would not be popular. Actually, quite the opposite.

Instead of any "Shadowing" might I suggest, if you're at an event and not part of the communications group leave your "...lots of radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles..." at home. At most, if you see a mishap, for example, and the regular communications group didn't spot it, inform them on your HT and sign clear when you're through. If they did, keep your pie-hole shut and enjoy the event. How simple could it be. That includes disasters, except the "enjoy it" part, of course.

73 to all, except the busybodies... of course.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K5TED on November 5, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack's well equipped truck doesn't look nearly as potentially threatening as some of the "coordinated" whackage I've seen tailing some events. That said, I'm not for "shadowing". Probably a good idea to let the folks know what you're up to. On the other hand, I have a hard time imagining a world where the average citizen is required to "check in" with some "duly appointed" master of ceremonies to follow and observe an event being conducted on public property or along public roadways.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by NO6L on November 5, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
That is just as creepy as whackers and "Jay Santos' ". Many, if not most times those clowns are not there with the "event", they're "aggressive" panhandlers (Or bums, beggers, gypsies, your choice.) demanding an entrance fee. Most people just think they're with the event and pony up. One way to find out is to ask ahead of time about an entrance fee. The other is call his bluff and whip out your cell phone and tell him you're calling the event to find out. If he runs off you know the score, and, what to do when you get inside.

For example, I've heard that there's an "intimidating" looking guy that hangs out at the entrance to El Mirage Dry Lake here in Ca where they have motor-sports events and collects $20 a vehicle. My friend (KJ6BOE) who encountered him said he wanted $20 and insisted that was always the fee, and Gary had been there many times through the years and never got charged. So there you go, prepare ahead of time by calling and asking about fees. Then, don't let these bits of scum intimidate you, just take off when they move to the side of your vehicle to "collect". And if it's a dirt road, floor it and spray the scumbag with dirt as you take off. That way he'll have a really good reason to finally bathe.

That's my take, and 73.

/end of line
 
looks like I have a bit more work to do......  
by NL7SX on November 5, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
KG6WOU: Formal shadowing is when a ham follows an officer or emergency coordinator for the transmitting (actually relaying) of messages to and from that person.
G3LBS: Start with a crossband, add imagery & gps, then a portable repeater, then APRS, then HF mobile capability, etc etc.
AD6KA: What article did you write for E Ham?
KI6JS: What contradiction was that? I was proposing that different situations require different solutions. Some are more formal...some less...and that liability law affects whether "full shadowing" is safer for the ham and more helpful for the participants whether the ham is invited or not.
 
KG4RUL (I'm glad you asked!)  
by NL7SX on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Poor planning is what we have....did you notice how Katrina was 'handled'? Have you seen stockpiles of insulin, food, fuel, potable water, batteries, toilet paper, etc ready for 'the big one' in the FEMA warehouses spread all over California? How about the wonderful fire response's we've had where 100's of buildings are burned for lack of or mis-allocation of firefighting resources? Being smug about how well the approved authorities are going to take care of us won't fly with me. Every ham, GMRS'er, CB'er, FRS'er, and MURS'er can be helpful/will have to be used WTSHTF.
 
NL7SX Avoids Elephant In Room  
by KJ6EAD on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, your ill-conceived article speaks for itself. All of your followup responses have dealt with subsidiary issues, even minutia. Either you are in a psychological state of denial or you are being coy about the central issue that concerns most of us, that being your willingness to intrude into the activities of others under the arrogant assumption that you know better than they how to provide for their communication needs. Even if you are correct about their unmet communication needs, poor planning, lack of emergency preparedness, etc. you simply have no right to impose your order on them or lurk about the area monitoring their activities regardless of the purity of your intent.
 
a nice video on "full shadowing"  
by NL7SX on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
http://www2.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/radiomonitoring/
 
KJ6EAD  
by NL7SX on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Under multi-use governance as exemplified by BLM policy I have every right to be where I want to be, doing what I want to do, as long as I am obeying the laws and regulations :-)
 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by KG4RUL on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"Under multi-use governance as exemplified by BLM policy I have every right to be where I want to be, doing what I want to do, as long as I am obeying the laws and regulations :-)"

Yep, just the response I would have expected.
 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by K1CJS on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"Under multi-use governance as exemplified by BLM policy I have every right to be where I want to be, doing what I want to do, as long as I am obeying the laws and regulations."

You can be somewhere where you're not wanted, obeying the laws and regulations, and still be in the wrong. Just try to do something like that where there is an emergency siruation going on--and even if you are 'obeying the laws and regulations', you'll find yourself on the wrong side of the legal 'fence'--and you'll be either asked to leave, made to leave--or arrested for impeding official operations.

Bottom line--if you're not welcome, stay away.
 
Elephant Turning Pink But Still In Room  
by KJ6EAD on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Social boundaries are for us lesser mortals, not afflicted by the glorious freedom of diffident narcissism. Some day Jack will effect a grand Ham radio rescue and the rest of us will see that he was right all along.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KD7YVV on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Jack, while your idea may seem to make sense at first,
it only may have worked in the pre-9/11 world.
When I first got involved with my city, I asked a lot of
questions, talked to people already involved in ARES,
and asked what I needed to learn so I could be an asset
to the group instead of an unknown liability.
Let's look at it from the other side of the coin.
Our city already knows who the members of ARES are, what
is expected of them, and all members were trained in
procedures the city is familiar with.
During an emergency or disaster is certainly not the
time to show up unannounced. While you may know how to
operate your station, what about one of the radios in
one of our fire stations? What frequencies do we use for
simplex? Packet? Let me ask you this, would you show
up at an accident scene that already has professional
responders on scene? I read a story once where an
ARES member did just that and was threatened with
arrest. This so-called ARES member argued stating
he had a memorandum of understanding with the state
police to which the highway patrol replied, "then
they can come and bail you out".
This guy showed up at an active accident scene.
He wasn't activated by any city or anyone in an
official capacity. Now apply that to a bike race.
No one knows who you are, what your capabilities are,
what your agenda is, or intent?
Suppose a cyclist goes down and you render basic
first aid without asking? That cyclist could sue you
and you would lose. Frankly, your article is a bad
solution in search of a non-existent problem.
Would you enter a bike race if you didn't know how to
ride a bike?
In the 7 years I've been in ARES I haven't been
activated once. Do I keep my training current?
Of course. Do I show up unannounced? Never.
I'll give you kudos for expressing a desire to be
of service, but don't you think that cities who do
have an MOU with ARES already have procedures in place
to have the people they need shadowed already set up?
Even 'minor' events like a bike race already have plans
and procedures in place to handle things.
Here's some advice. Ask questions, learn what you can,
and after you've been with your ARES for a couple of
years, come back and read this article.
Hopefully by then your will have an increased knowledge
of how EMCOMM and your local city handles things.
As for me, each day that goes by that our ARES group
is not activated, is another day I can have fun on the
radio. Good luck, and may you learn plenty and
grow wiser.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K4RAF on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
@K0RGR: Hardly a rant OM...

It is reality. Say what you want, denial is more than a river in Egypt...

73 de Raf
 
KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by NL7SX on November 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Showing up at an accident scene where "professionals" are in control should probably be avoided but there are exceptions. The larger problems are beyond any professionals ability to handle. So far, my ham radio support has been by request of the organizers with more knowledgeable hams as supervisors. As I mentioned, my last experience was with inadequate organization and there is where KD7YVV's suggestion of LIABILITY whether requested by the organizer or not, can be very serious. Therefore, the tendency is toward a ham not touching anything, not being stationed near any known hazard....just observing, and reporting and THAT my friends is SHADOWING!



 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by KD7YVV on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, my #1 rule for myself is, if my ARES group has not
been specifically activated by the city, or if I come
upon an accident scene where professional responders are
on scene, I do not get involved. This is just my opinion,
but having someone unknown to city officials, served
agencies, means they have to devote resources that could
be better put to use elsewhere to watch you.
A lot of people here have said to you, if you want to
shadow people during events, go through the proper
channels, get the proper training, and become known to
your city/served agencies. Let's pull apart your reasoning
here Jack.....

You said:
Showing up at an accident scene where "professionals" are in control should probably be avoided but there are exceptions.

You should never and I repeat this, NEVER get involved
in an accident scene where professionals are already
on-scene.
The word probably doesn't even belong in that sentence.
Even though I have the proper training etc. etc.
I still hesitate to get involved. Even if I am on-scene
first, unless someone is bleeding profusely, the
extent I wish to involve myself is a call to 911.

Now, let's take your next text.....

The larger problems are beyond any professionals ability to handle. So far, my ham radio support has been by request of the organizers with more knowledgeable hams as supervisors. As I mentioned, my last experience was with inadequate organization and there is where KD7YVV's suggestion of LIABILITY whether requested by the organizer or not, can be very serious.

If you are requested to be on-scene at an event, then
you must be known to the people that requested you.
That's good. All a lot of the people here have been
saying to you Jack is, go through the proper channels,
get the proper training, become known to your city,
and your local ARES. Because I am a part of my local
ARES and am known to the city, I am covered under the
city's insurance policy should anything happen, but
ONLY if ARES was activated by the city's Emergency
Coordinator. It doesn't matter if the City knows me
or not, if I show up unannounced on-scene where I
was not activated or otherwise invited by the City
Coordinator, if I made a pain in the ass of myself,
I would definitely be arrested and dealt
with at a later time.

The video you linked to has nothing to do with ham
radio, ARES or EMCOMM at all. It's an advertisement
for a spectrum monitoring company.

Now let me pick out another thing you posted:

The larger problems are beyond any professionals ability to handle.

Says who? You? Do you honestly believe, that because
you have a ham license that you are able to judge
that a situation is too large for professionals to
handle? Am I honestly reading this right?
And you're going to come in with your ham license and
radio equipment and "help". Your way or the highway eh?

And now for the last part.....

Therefore, the tendency is toward a ham not touching anything, not being stationed near any known hazard....just observing, and reporting and THAT my friends is SHADOWING!


If you don't have the proper training, and you don't
have the proper ID, and you are not known to my ARES
group or my city, then there is no way in hell that
you, or your radios, would be allowed to participate
in any disaster being handled by our served agencies.
You say you want to observe and report. Report to whom?
Who asked for the report? What agency?

Now, on to Katrina, you DO know that many hams who
volunteered and went down to the affected area were
turned away don't you? Know why? Here's why.
The hams were unknown to the local area agencies.
The hams were unfamiliar with local procedures and protocol.
A lot of the hams weren't asked to come help, they
went on their own. (That's called self activation
by the way and is a definite no-no.)

To put it bluntly Jack, people here including myself
have given you some very good advice, pointed you in
the right direction, and even gave you a little shove.
The fact that you still believe you can show up at an
event (doesn't matter what kind) unannounced and
'shadow' people and give them 'reports' (not asked for
btw) is an indicator to me, that you are not a team
player.

The bottom line Jack is this:

Until you are officially a part of an ARES/RACES/CERT
organization, are properly credentialed, insured, and
trained in the protocols and procedures of the city
and agencies you wish to serve, no one is going to
want to deal with you at all. Let me ask you this.
Do you think an ARES group, after reading your post
and replies is going to want someone who is unwilling
to learn? Here is even MORE advice Jack.

Forget this article completely.
Contact your local ARES organization, tell them you
know nothing about Emergency Communications, but you
have an interest. Then say "Teach Me."
Take the ARRL Emergency Communications courses.
Learn about the Incident Command System.

I don't want you to think I'm typing down at you Jack,
but I am typing TO you. When I was first licensed, I
had been scanning the repeaters in my area. I heard my
local ARES net, got in touch with them, and told them
exactly what I said above, I know nothing about EMCOMM
but was willing to learn. They told me, take the courses,
learn the ICS, learn our procedures and protocols.
That's the advice I'm passing to you.
The more you learn, the more of an asset you'll be.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES


 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by K6JPA on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
KD7YVV, Thank you, from a professional emergency service provider, for properly understanding your role in the emergency service structure, and for properly clarifying the need for mutually-coordinated training.

The last thing I would need as an officer on an emergency scene is an individual unknown to me and my organization "shadowing" my crew. Such an individual would simply be an additional burden on the resources on hand, as a police officer would generally be requested and designated to "shadow" the "shadower".

My department works with our structured amateur radio group as needed, and are familiar with the individuals and their training. They participate with our city-sponsored emergency drills, and have a designated room in our EOC, next to our EOC emergency dispatch area, supplied with city-purchased amateur radio equipment for their needs. Although not employees of the city, they are issued cIty ID cards for EOC access, city provided HT's, and have had LiveScan checks performed. They are covered with our insurance in the event that something goes wrong. They train regularly, and we are comfortable with their communication abilities, and understanding of the Incident Command structure. Just as important, they understand the limitations expected upon them in the event of an emergency activation need.

Jim / K6JPA
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KG4RRN on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I LIKE SHADOWING......HEEE HEEE HEEE.........
 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by K1CJS on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
NL7SX backpedaled once more, saying:

"Showing up at an accident scene where "professionals" are in control should probably be avoided but there are exceptions. The larger problems are beyond any professionals ability to handle. So far, my ham radio support has been by request of the organizers with more knowledgeable hams as supervisors. As I mentioned, my last experience was with inadequate organization and there is where KD7YVV's suggestion of LIABILITY whether requested by the organizer or not, can be very serious. Therefore, the tendency is toward a ham not touching anything, not being stationed near any known hazard....just observing, and reporting and THAT my friends is SHADOWING!"

Showing up at such a scene is to be avoided at all costs--unless YOU ARE CALLED THERE. 'Larger' problems are handled differently, and unless you're part of the team, and therefore the solution, you're part of the problem.

Lets take flooding for an example. The professionals are there monitoring the water levels, and have been given certain criteria for reporting the situation. Then along comes the 'shadow', as you describe, calling in information that something is happening. The officials in charge cannot responsibly ignore such a report, and send the person who is supposed to be watching that area, possibly taking him/her away from another area where they are REALLY needed, just to find that the 'shadow' is reporting something that can safely wait for action--AND THE AREA WHERE THAT PERSON WAS NEEDED MORE IS NEGLECTED AND SOMETHING HAPPENS THERE!

The shadow has done what he thinks is right, but in effect has caused a major problem by sticking his nose in where it isn't needed or wanted.

NOW, you go ahead and tell us that the shadow isn't on the wrong side of the law, and that you're 'within your rights'. You, the shadow, have in effect caused a larger problem than you thought you were helping to solve--AND you can be held liable for it!

Again--Bottom line--If you're not called to help, STAY AWAY!

 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by KD7YVV on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
No need to thank me Jim. I'm just passing on what I've learned.
As I said earlier, every day we're not activated is a
day to play on the radio. :)
I don't want to dampen Jack's enthusiasm, and I hope I
haven't done so. There are ways to be helpful too without
having your ARES group activated. Last year Kirkland got
a good amount of snow. We weren't activated by the city,
but out of habit, ARES members started checking into the
local machine. No formal net was started, but we got a
roundtable type net going with members and the general
ham population reporting conditions in their area.
Amongst the jokes about who's antenna would get buried
first and other banter, the EC for Kirkland checked in.
The jokes and banter stopped, and the EC said they had
been monitoring the machine, and thanks to the informal
reports, they had a pretty good idea about conditions
around the city. We never did formally activate for
the storm, but even our friendly banter, informal
chatter and weather conditions proved to be helpful.
Your setup down there sounds pretty much like what
we have up here. We have stations in all our firehouses.
During a formal activation, that's where we go.
All in all, the storm wasn't too bad, and we were all
safe and snug in our respective QTH's looking out the
window while ragchewing and having some fun.
Even our EC had a blast. I do hope Jack gets involved
with his local group. As a previous poster said,
ARES/RACES is always looking for volunteers.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, ARES

 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by KD7YVV on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
K1CJS,
Exactly. I have to agree. How would the shadow know
what criteria was set for a flooding report?
(No puns on "The Shadow knows!")
What frequencies are in use? How are things structured?
Suppose he keys up on a frequency just as something
happens and important information is missed?
How should the report read? Do they need GPS coordinates?
What format should those coordinates be in? WGS84? NAD27?
Should it be on ICS-213 or sent as a radiogram?
Who should be contacted? Public works? Fire department?
Who asked for the report? Who is the report supposed to
go to? A specific person? The public information officer?
I agree with you, plunging headfirst into a situation in
which you have no idea of what's going on is a bad idea.


--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES

 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by W7COM on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
In his case he would contact the PIO since he is not part of the IC structure. He's public and public info is only handled through the PIO.

George, check out the link below. I just took the class at SnoDEM and it is an amazing program. Contact N7SS for more info.

http://www.oregonaces.org/

73,

Joe w7com
Tulalip ARC
TribalHams.net
 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by W5HTW on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Wow this sounds so much like two cliques of boys. One if playing cowboy and Indian, and doesn't want the other to play. So the second group just follows the first group around. However, uaually, when they reach the age of about 10 or 11, they stop this behavior.

Kinda like following your buddies to the bar. They don't consider themselves your buddies, so they don't include you in the beer drinking and pool playing. So you set up shop next to them, different table, get your own beer and pretend you are part of the gang.

You aren't.

This is one of the weirdest threads I have ever stumbled across, suggesting if you are not part of the party, hang close on the outside of the party.

That is extremely pathetic, and for those who can only get a life that way, it is very depressing.

Go make friends. Go play golf. Get rid of some of the radios and antennas. Turn them off. Go have dinner with your very few friends at Golden Corral.

How sad.

Ed
 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by KD7YVV on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Joe,
I'll definitely have to check that out.
I'm interested in the digital side of things.
I have a D-Star handheld, but there are no D-Star
repeaters down here in Ocean Shores. It's an interesting
technology. During Field Day 2009, Another ham and I
had our laptops and D-Star radios hooked up.
Just for grins and giggles, we exchanged photos via
the D-Star repeater located on Lincoln Tower in
Bellevue. It was slow going, but it was interesting to
see the process from start to finish. It's still new
technology to me, but given time, I'll learn about it.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
RE: KJ6EAD and KD7YVV  
by KD7YVV on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Ed,
Welcome to the thread. Strange analogies.
I just don't want to see the guy get into trouble or
start off in EMCOMM on the wrong foot.
Here in WA, we had 4 cops gunned down, and another
shot while sitting in his patrol car.
The result is a lot of nervous cops. I'm trying to get
Jack to realize, if he's not a part of a group known
to his city/police/fire etc. Hanging around, 'shadowing'
people and showing up at scenes are going to make the
cops even more nervous than they already are.
He's liable to get himself arrested, or worse, shot.
Police already see people they don't know as a potential
threat. Some guy unknown to them with a radio even more
so. I've said my piece, hopefully it helps.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES

 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by NA0AA on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Along time ago, in a far away place I was a member of an SAR team. Had we been faced with someone hanging around, shadowing us, who was unwanted, we would have used our radios to call the Sheriff [for whom we worked] and they would glady have explained to that person why they were not wanted and to please buzz off.

The more this gets explained to me, the more he clarifies, the worse it sounds. This is worse than simple wackerism at work.

 
Darker Motive?  
by KJ6EAD on November 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
The link to Rohde & Schwarz got me thinking that perhaps Jack has some ideas about monitoring cell frequencies since that's the way people in trouble will try to call for help. If they're in a dead zone, voilà, Jack to the rescue. I hope I'm wrong.
 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by K1CJS on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
KG6WOU, you've certainly got that one right. This person is, in effect, saying that he can go where he wants and do as he pleases, and nobody can stop him from doing so.

All that can be said for that is--let him. He'll be straightened out in a hurry when he is arrested and loses his communications gear. He may even be told to spend some time in sub-standard state housing if he pushes it too far.

Let him go! There will be one less whacker around when he is introduced to Mr. LEO and given some shiny jewelry to wear! :-)
 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by KD7YVV on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I seem to remember a story about rights.
It goes: "I have the right to come into your house,
stand on your table, and sing the Star Spangled Banner during your breakfast....as long as it doesn't conflict
with your right to peace, privacy, and security in your home." A lot of good advice has been given to this
individual. Let's hope he listens.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by AA4HA on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, a therapist would have their own field day with this;

Quote: "with a critical eye toward the current political conditions in the USA suggest that the original intent of amateur radio is less important to some event organizers and our society"

How does this have anything to do with the original intent of amateur radio or the political conditions?

Quote: "situations when poor planning, tight control, and exclusivity exists."

Exclusivity, meaning that you have been excluded before and the "tight control" has kept you out of the sandbox?

Quote: "To do this SHADOWING well, takes a first class amateur radio operator"

Yes, all of you second class radio operators better beware.

Quote: "compared to the 'official' capability but then again, the official capability may be limited by lack of planning, resources, or intent."

Lack of intent, exclusivity, tight control. Maybe there was plenty of intent to keep it under tight control through an exclusive group. It sounds like you have been excluded before when you just showed up with lots of antennas and radios to save the day.

 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB8VUL on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, Full shadowing huh? Wonder how many hams you can fit in a paddy wagon?

Going and screwing with someones event, especially being a wacko, is a good way to get charged with a number of things. This list would include, but not limited to, interferring with police business, criminal trespass, criminal menacing, stalking, impersonation of a police officer, and the list goes on.

Time to face facts, YOU ARE NOT WANTED, YOU ARE NOT NEEDED, STAY HOME.

I work in the communications field, and I heard this nonsense all the time from the hammy's about just incase.

Here's the problem, most of the hammy repeaters are located right next to the police systems because they wrote their congressmen and whined about ecomm so that they could get free tower space. They get co-located with public safety, so if they go down, the hammy system fails as well. Gee, how's them hams gonna help.

Second, unless you are living in back of the backwoods, there are multiple systems that are available to public safety, the state EMA has portable repeaters and towers on trailers that can be deployed to replace failed systems in an emergency situation.

Finally, professionals are just that. They are highly trained to deal with situations. You hacks took a test that you had all the answers to after reading a cheat book. You probably aren't even able to solder a PL connector on coax. You have no training on dealing with disaster situations, or much else. So stay home, so you are neither in the way of professionals trying to work, or another casualty to be dealt with.

I have training, typically do triage, and carry extra toe tags when I now there are hammy's out trying to help. But in the event of a real emergency, you are welcome. As the bodies pile up I know there will be a ample supply of radios and batteries to use to communicate.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KB8VUL on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, Full shadowing huh? Wonder how many hams you can fit in a paddy wagon?

Going and screwing with someones event, especially being a wacko, is a good way to get charged with a number of things. This list would include, but not limited to, interferring with police business, criminal trespass, criminal menacing, stalking, impersonation of a police officer, and the list goes on.

Time to face facts, YOU ARE NOT WANTED, YOU ARE NOT NEEDED, STAY HOME.

I work in the communications field, and I heard this nonsense all the time from the hammy's about just incase.

Here's the problem, most of the hammy repeaters are located right next to the police systems because they wrote their congressmen and whined about ecomm so that they could get free tower space. They get co-located with public safety, so if they go down, the hammy system fails as well. Gee, how's them hams gonna help.

Second, unless you are living in back of the backwoods, there are multiple systems that are available to public safety, the state EMA has portable repeaters and towers on trailers that can be deployed to replace failed systems in an emergency situation.

Finally, professionals are just that. They are highly trained to deal with situations. You hacks took a test that you had all the answers to after reading a cheat book. You probably aren't even able to solder a PL connector on coax. You have no training on dealing with disaster situations, or much else. So stay home, so you are neither in the way of professionals trying to work, or another casualty to be dealt with.

I have training, typically do triage, and carry extra toe tags when I now there are hammy's out trying to help. But in the event of a real emergency, you are welcome. As the bodies pile up I know there will be a ample supply of radios and batteries to use to communicate.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by W5HTW on November 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Hammy? Huh? Like "hamsters," that I have seen on other forums.

So we get Shadowing Hammys?


 
RE: KJ6EAD  
by N1DVJ on November 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
KD7YVV wrote:

I seem to remember a story about rights.
It goes: "I have the right to come into your house,
stand on your table, and sing the Star Spangled Banner during your breakfast....as long as it doesn't conflict
with your right to peace, privacy, and security in your home." A lot of good advice has been given to this
individual. Let's hope he listens.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
_____________________________________________________

So true! Yes, you can have rights, but there are also consequences...

As to coming into my home without my permission...

"There are very few problems in life that cannot be solved by the correct application of a 12ga"

Don't know where I heard that, but I like it!
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I think Will Rogers said it altogether too right in his famous quote:

"Your 'right' to swing your fist ENDS where my nose BEGINS!"
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K4DPK on November 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me the better approach, assuming your club wants to become helpful in these events, would be to have your club president call and perhaps meet with the leaders of those events.

Then they might discuss whether there is a place you could fit in, in a productive but unobtrusive way.

To surreptitiously stalk and "shadow" an event hoping something will happen that might allow the use of your walkie-talkie is ridiculous. And it might, as others have said, get you a little time in the pokie.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KD7YVV on November 10, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, Full shadowing huh? Wonder how many hams you can fit in a paddy wagon?

You can fit as many hams that refuse to take 'no' for an answer.

Going and screwing with someones event, especially being a wacko, is a good way to get charged with a number of things. This list would include, but not limited to, interfering with police business, criminal trespass, criminal menacing, stalking, impersonation of a police officer, and the list goes on.

Exactly! Also, he could possibly alter or destroy
evidence at a crime scene. 'Uhm, sir, how did you get
that blood on your shoes? Do you own a gun? What are
you doing here? Have you ever been arrested? Do you
have ID? What is your relationship to the victim?'

As I said previously, there are a lot of nervous
cops, and they WILL shoot first and ask questions later.

Shall I go on?


Time to face facts, YOU ARE NOT WANTED, YOU ARE NOT NEEDED, STAY HOME.

Untrained, unknown, uninsured...definitely not wanted.
Trained to work with your served agency, known to
city officials and a clean background check, possibly
useful, but unlikely to be called for most disasters.

I work in the communications field, and I heard this nonsense all the time from the hammy's about just incase.

Here's the problem, most of the hammy repeaters are located right next to the police systems because they wrote their congressmen and whined about ecomm so that they could get free tower space. They get co-located with public safety, so if they go down, the hammy system fails as well. Gee, how's them hams gonna help.

Here in Washington, there are some areas of the Pacific
Northwest where there is no cellphone service.
It can be quite a challenge sometimes depending on
where you are to get a signal. Even our state patrol
sometimes has trouble communicating with dispatch
due to the terrain.

Second, unless you are living in back of the backwoods, there are multiple systems that are available to public safety, the state EMA has portable repeaters and towers on trailers that can be deployed to replace failed systems in an emergency situation.

Now there are, lessons learned from Katrina, but it
was not always so. Many agencies still do not have
full interoperability. It's getting there though.



Finally, professionals are just that. They are highly trained to deal with situations. You hacks took a test that you had all the answers to after reading a cheat book. You probably aren't even able to solder a PL connector on coax. You have no training on dealing with disaster situations, or much else. So stay home, so you are neither in the way of professionals trying to work, or another casualty to be dealt with.

Sadly this is true. However, ARES/RACES are groups
included in the Incident Command System, but way
down in the tree. There are hams that have taken
classes required by the agencies they wish to serve
and have gotten training specific to the needs of the
served agency. I wholeheartedly agree, if you weren't
called, stay away. You'll be one less problem the
professionals have to deal with.

I have training, typically do triage, and carry extra toe tags when I now there are hammy's out trying to help. But in the event of a real emergency, you are welcome. As the bodies pile up I know there will be a ample supply of radios and batteries to use to communicate.

Actually, in a real emergency, untrained, unknown,
uninsured hams are NOT welcome. As I stated in an
earlier post, during an emergency is not the time
for me to bring an unknown ham up to speed on our
frequencies and procedures.

In the 7 years I've been licensed and a part of ARES,
I've never been activated by the city. Another poster
had a great idea, join your local volunteer fire dept.
Also in an earlier post I said, every day that goes
by without an activation is another day I can have
fun with the radio.


--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 10, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"Actually, in a real emergency, untrained, unknown,
uninsured hams are NOT welcome. As I stated in an
earlier post, during an emergency is not the time
for me to bring an unknown ham up to speed on our
frequencies and procedures."

Ditto for those hams who are 'paper members', but have never joined in the training sessions. These hams are even more likely to cause problems than the ones who just show up 'doing their thing'.

I was the EMA radio officer/ARES director for the city where I lived for two years. The paper members always used to ignore practice and drill sessions, but let something come up and look out, they're out in force--but they don't have the first idea on what they are needed for or where they're supposed to be!

 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KD7YVV on November 11, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
We made it clear to hams joining our group that they
had to show up for meetings, if they missed too many
they were out. Still though, you do need the training
if you're going to be of service. I'm lucky our city
cross-trains with our group. I know what you mean though
about the paper members. I posted an article here about
that very thing:

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=178100

Like I said in the other article, I don't live and
breathe EMCOMM, but I do take the time to keep the
training current and up to date. After all, if it were
a real emergency and our group were activated, then
that is not the time to update your training and
procedures. That's what the exercises are for.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K8ELR on November 11, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Why would you even be there? I agree it make you look pathetic. Normally I'm all for public service but this is too much.

73
Jim K8ELR
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by AE7VT on November 13, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Sounds like another twist of the over-zealous ham out to be the hero with his radio. That's is the kind of behavior that got a previous group basically thrown out of any connection to our local governments before I moved here.

A couple of newer hams were showing up at every house fire, accident and ambulance call, usually before the fire department and police arrived. So, when they were always being seen at fire events, trying to direct traffic and basically getting in the way the fire chief called the contacted the Emergency Manager and tells him that if another ham shows up at a fire call he will have them arrested! Eventually both hams were included in two arson investigations as 'suspects'....

It took three years to repair that damage and have a chance to prove ourselves as trained and disciplined. Then, another year for the county to officially partner with our group. There are many areas in the country that local governments will have nothing to do with their ham operators for just this very reason.

This is just a very bad idea, even for a public event. If you're not invited, don't push your way in as it reflect on our ham community as a whole....
 
the author concludes "FULL SHADOWING"!  
by NL7SX on November 13, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks to all persons that contributed to the discussion of Full Shadowing. After all that was said I think Full Shadowing of emergencies as well as public service events is in everyone's best interest to see if help can be rendered. The emergencies I've helped with were as a ham early on the scene before professional services were available. A world of good can be accomplished in that period. When a ham has excellent operating procedures and reliable equipment there is little doubt that matters are being handled properly and expeditiously. Hams work well as a team because of the experiences they have over the years routinely communicating. They develop consideration for others and learn to take command if necessary. Don't expect the professionals to help when they are swamped. Above all be flexible in your response; monitor CB, MURS, GMRS, your local police and fire, anticipate possible outcomes, change frequencies to avoid interference, patiently wait you turn in net operations, and concisely describe your situation to the net, etc. I think you will find that ANY ham will be glad to assist if he/she knows how to help and what is expected. Make others aware of your general equipment and resources, emergency capabilities, and when conditions change, be ready and able to instantly adapt or GET OUT OF THE WAY! A calm heart and ready smile is worth a lot when things get hectic, so step outside yourself from time to time, ask for assistance if you need it and have a good time shadowing public service events!
 
RE: the author concludes "FULL SHADOWING"!  
by W5HTW on November 15, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Do we breed hammys? Are they like mice? Where do you find a producing pair and how much are they worth? Can you get them at the pet shop? Where do hammys go when the sun goes down? I just don't know where to find hammys. Not that I want any. I have enough pets right now.

Just curious.

Ed
 
RE: the author concludes "FULL SHADOWING"!  
by K6JPA on November 15, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Not to beat a dead horse, but to get the point out once again... if emergency personnel are "swamped" to the point of having problems with coordinating communications or actions at a scene, an event or series of events has occurred of a magnitude that the ONLY productive use for public safety needs involving amateur radio will involve a pre-trained, pre-coordinated, pre-established amateur radio group, functioning as a trained ICS component.

Any individual or small group acting as a solo, uncoordinated or unallocated resource, will simply be a hinderance to emergency personnel, regardless of what good they may perceive themselves as being.
 
could you rephrase that K6JPA?  
by NL7SX on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
IF I understand you correctly....you mean everyone should roll over and die while the 'authorized' professionals help?! And that it is inconceivable that individuals can help themselves, their community, state, and nation in the event of a disaster unless they are trained ICS's?
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by WZ1P on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
As a career state law enforcement officer and ham radio operator I think that SHADOWING is a very bad idea. We appreciate a citizen making a report of an accident or incident if they are there when or soon after it happens. Concerned citizens have saved many lives.

Far to often I have seen cop wannabees or other self proclaimed 'official' people getting in the way at an incident. We used to call them 'scanner jockeys' in the old days. Scanner, 36" rubber duck, orange vest and some with an 'official vehicle'.

It's a sad fact of life that some of our fellow hams insist on being 'hamsexy'. I have never had to arrest one but have tried to give them good advice on how not to be a public embarassment to the hobby. I would say more but it has been well stated here by the 99% of us who just like to do our ham radio without needing to be self important.

Dan WZ1P
 
RE: could you rephrase that K6JPA?  
by K6JPA on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
NL7SX asks: "IF I understand you correctly....you mean everyone should roll over and die while the 'authorized' professionals help?! And that it is inconceivable that individuals can help themselves, their community, state, and nation in the event of a disaster unless they are trained ICS's?"

The issue here isn't whether or not someone has the right to help themselves or others in an emergency. Of course, there might be times that a person may by chance be the first on scene of an emergency, either involving themselves or another.

The issue here is your apparent lack of understanding of the potential problems a "shadowing", or what it should be properly called, "freelancing" individual can create when a system has been established to mitigate an event. My point is that those that freelance at an emergency scene typically create more problems for responders than they solve.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as "trained ICS's", which makes me question whether or not you understand the acronym.

I am not suggesting that amateur operators cannot be helpful during an emergency. Certainly we can, and that has been demonstrated over and over throughout the history of our radio service. What I am suggesting, however, is that those that have the intention to participate during emergencies should strive to be properly trained to do so in advance. "Shadowing" during an emergency, is counter productive in my opinion.
 
RE: could you rephrase that K6JPA?  
by N1DVJ on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"IF I understand you correctly....you mean everyone should roll over and die while the 'authorized' professionals help?!"

Pretty much, yep!

IF you happen to be someone, stay INVISIBLE and OUT OF THE WAY. Don't be the back end of a donkey and try to make yourself known. INVISIBLE is a key word here too. Ok, wear your multiple HTs and your beanie with the propeller, er, ham call hat and impress people.

Just listen to any of your local weathernets and you see what I mean. Around here net control can plead again and again for people to only report severe weather damage or hail over a certain size and almost every time there's some clown that comes on with his weather report that says something along the line that "It's getting windy here and I can see clouds in the distance". I'm amazed that no one looses their patience with this lid. Unfortunately, he's not the only one.

If you aren't trained and part of the group, you almost CERTAINLY are going to be part of the problem, not part of the solution. At best, you will be an annoyance that is PERCEIVED to be part of the problem. At best. It's difficult enough to keep people that ARE trained under control, and you want to butt in?

How much clearer does it have to be said by the people who ARE the trained leaders and ARE effectively a voice of authority. STAY AWAY!!!!

If it's something that you CAN stay away, and still feel you can contribute (ok, a major weather issue and you're at your house) DO SO MINIMALLY, and STAY OUT OF IT OTHER THAN WHAT IS MINIMALLY NECESSAY!

You obviously don't listen to the voices here. How the heck is anyone here going to even begin to believe you would listen to instructions during a real event?




 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1BXI on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, you said...... "with a critical eye toward the current political conditions in the USA suggest that the original intent of amateur radio is less important to some event organizers and our society."

What do you think the original intent of amateur was?

I'm waiting for your answer..........John
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1BXI on November 16, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I should have said...."What do you think the original intent of amateur radio was?"
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K1CJS on November 17, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
If you come upon an accident scene before anyone else, by all means, REPORT IT! If you want to stick around until help arrives, do so--but as soon as that help does get there--GET OUT OF THE WAY!

Stick around for a few minutes afterwards if you want to, THEN GET OUT OF THERE! Chances are if the authorities are looking for more info on what you saw, they'll get to you and tell you to stick around, but if they don't, just leave. THAT is the best way for hams to be of service.
 
K1BXI  
by NL7SX on November 19, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Thank you for asking John. I suppose I can't answer that as I've only been a ham since 1956 or so. Probably the 'amateur radio service' has evolved along many fronts: DX, technical education, world class goodwill, expedition support, etc so maybe your question is slanted toward the situation with ham radio and our society now. I'll try to look up your call and send you an email.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KD8CPP on November 20, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah....right...

Im a firefighter and a ham. I volunteer with a local EmComm group. We dont "self activate" or go to a call without being "invited"

As a firefighter, if I get a ham that self activates and trys to "Full Shadow" me with all their many radios, computers, etc. Im calling for law enforcement (if theyre not already there) and having them arrested for entering my scene.

Theres a time and place for ham radio in an emergency. I love my hobby, but thats what it is. If a public safety provider requests us hams, Im more than happy to go help and provide them with any asstance I can provide, but I also stay out of their way, and all other hams should do the same.
 
RE: Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by KD7YVV on November 21, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Exactly. If I'm not invited, I'm not there.
There are too many other fun things to do in this hobby.
Do I have the proper training/background checks etc.?
Yes, but it isn't the et al be all of the hobby for me.
Just because I know CPR/Basic First Aid, do I go around
constantly on the lookout for someone about to have a
heart attack? No, of course not, and that type of
behavior would be considered ridiculous.
When it comes to ham radio, I'm a ham because I enjoy it.
I learn all I can learn, elmer when I can, and pass on
things I have learned to others who also wish to learn.
Am I the fastest CW op on the planet? Nope, I passed
the 5 WPM General, then with more studying, upgraded to
Extra. All in all, an interest in EMCOMM is a good thing,
and the willingness to serve one's community is admirable.
All everyone has been saying is, go through the right
channels. Take the proper training, you'll be glad you did.
And on that note, I do hope everyone has a happy, fun
and save Thanksgiving.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
actually, the intent of this article was to  
by NL7SX on November 22, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
discuss monitoring rather than doing an organizer's work and to discuss political changes in the USA relative to liability and the use of amateur radio at public service events and emergencies. Many responses were reactions to "Full Shadowing" by the professional and pseudo-professional under normal and emergency conditions which struck me as a limited view of amateur radios capabilities. There is no one best use of amateur radio and by its original and current nature it can be a diverse and adaptable communications service. HF/shortwave, VHF monitoring, RDFing/observing, marine/aeronauical comms, scanning, shadowing, navigation, public service listening, GPS/APRS/imagery, interservice crossbanding/relays under emergency conditions, health and welfare messaging, satellite use, digital internet access, spectrum analysis, and many more are what amateur radio offers to those willing to work, learn, and enjoy its intricacies. As a lifelong pursuit it serves one well. It has relieved much stress/worry, saved many lives, passed much accurate information, some good stories, and helped many people around the world with conversation and friendship. It is a fine hobby for the professional too.
 
RE: Actual  
by KJ6EAD on November 23, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, had you actually written all that in the original article it would have been panned as rambling gobbledygook. People will rightly respond to what you write as written, not as you intend, unless the two are the same. Why not take what you've gleaned from this experience and write a new article telling us exactly what you really mean so there'll be no room for misunderstanding.
 
RE: Actual  
by K6JPA on November 23, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Agreed.

Several different statements have been posted by the original author of the article, when viewed from the original post and consequential "clarifications", and it seems to me that the statements contradict each other. Whether intentional or not.

I am willing to give the benefit of doubt to the author that he might have something worthwhile to propose.

Maybe starting over with a clean slate and re-proposing your ideas in another article with more complete examples of what you are proposing would go along way towards gaining support for your ideas.
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by W5PJW on November 24, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I think the general consensus is that it is a undesirable idea.

Might be a reason for that.

 
finally?  
by NL7SX on November 24, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Amateur radio is not yet in a "Full Shadowing" mode with public service events but it probably should be the objective in the future. If in doubt about what has been written ask questions rather than jump to conclusions and attacks or defensive behavior! 73 de nL7sx sk
 
RE: finally?  
by KJ6EAD on November 25, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
SK? Jack, are you dead? All the events around the Northern Mojave will now experience FULL HAUNTING and an article proposing this new operating mode from beyond will show up on eHam.net via etherwave chain-rattling code. The new article will include a complete litany of every emergency communications jargon term and amateur radio acronym ever known.

(I know, it just means end of transmission.)
 
RE: finally?  
by K1CJS on November 27, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
And all sane amateur radio operators will never, ever go into a full shadowing mode--all those who do not like looking at a set of iron bars from the wrong side, that is.

For the last time--If you're not asked to show up--STAY AWAY!
 
I apologize in advance to all other hams in EMCOMM  
by KD7YVV on November 27, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Amateur radio is not yet in a "Full Shadowing" mode with public service events but it probably should be the objective in the future. If in doubt about what has been written ask questions rather than jump to conclusions and attacks or defensive behavior! 73 de nL7sx sk

OK Jack, either you do not read replies, or you are an
extremely dense individual. Here it is in a nutshell.
I'll even use caps so the meaning is crystal clear.

IF YOU ARE UNKNOWN TO A SERVED AGENCY, DO NOT HAVE THE
PROPER TRAINING, ARE NOT PART OF AN EXISTING ARES/RACES/SKYWARN GROUP, AND DO NOT HAVE THE PROPER IDENTIFICATION
AND BACKGROUND CHECKS, YOU WILL NOT BE CALLED, ACTIVATED, USED, OR DEPLOYED.

No one here has attacked you in any way, shape or form.
Myself, and others have given you very good advice.
One person even asked, if you are not willing to listen
to the advice obviously posted here by people who have
gone through training, what makes you honestly believe
they will want you around? Did you read the post
above about 2 new hams who kept showing up at events
uninvited? They were considered arson suspects.
I can honestly say Jack, the more you hold onto this
idea that you can just show up and 'help', just
shows me, that you are not the type of person that
ARES/RACES is interested in recruiting.
This statement by you proves it.

Amateur radio is not yet in a "Full Shadowing" mode with public service events but it probably should be the objective in the future.

I was hoping to see a post by you saying that you
had contacted a local ARES group or radio club
and expressing an interest in learning about public
service, and how it is properly applied.
Your most recent post tells me, you are not interested
in being a team player, you refuse to listen to the
advice of others who have posted, and you insist that
'full shadowing' is a good idea when many others
including myself have given you not only clear concise
explanations as to why it is not, but have also given
examples of why it's a bad idea.
All I can hope is the advice, examples, and information
given by myself and others is of some benefit to you Jack.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, ARES

 
RE: finally?  
by KD7YVV on November 27, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
And all sane amateur radio operators will never, ever go into a full shadowing mode--all those who do not like looking at a set of iron bars from the wrong side, that is.

For the last time--If you're not asked to show up--STAY AWAY!

Chris, his original article was posted November 2nd.
It's now the 27th, and I am of the opinion that the
advice, examples (real life ones I may add) may have
fallen on deaf ears. Kind of sad actually.....

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, ARES
 
Full Shadowing Of Public Service Events  
by K4DPK on November 27, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
“Yes, Judge, we thought it was camouflage, too, from the way he behaved. But when we locked him up, we learned it was just big splotches of mustard on his Tee shirt.”
*******************************

There are actually some folks in the non-ham population who believe hams are, ….well…weird and creepy.

Wonder where they get ideas like that.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk


 
In my first sentence I hinted at something  
by NL7SX on December 3, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
that is discussed in the dissertation by Rebecca A, Edelman, titled The Shadow Rules of Engagement: Visual Practices, Citizen-Subjectivity,
and America’s Global War on Terror. Although off my original topic to a degree it shows a direction the discussion could have gone. This dissertation for inquisitive hams might hint at some of the difficulties ahead because there are rules for everything. The definition of militarism on page 8 might ring a bell with most of those that simplistically interpreted my idea of "Full Shadowing of Public Service Events". There was one ham that sensed where things could go and they wanted no part of me or the ARRL...a smart move! Hope you enjoy nthe read: http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi/Adelman%20Rebecca%20A.pdf?osu1243903538
 
RE: In my first sentence I hinted at something  
by KJ6EAD on December 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, it's good to see you're not SK in a bad way. Your reference is to a 370-page pseudo intellectual psychosocial doctoral thesis (gobbledygook) on the use of imagery in society. It is irrelevant to the issues raised in your article and subsequent comments. By offering this up in a desperate attempt to legitimize a socially unpalatable misuse of technology and talent, you've only bolstered the suspicions of those who've expressed grave misgivings about your status and intent.

This link is for a public agency that has no HAM communications capability whatsoever. They need someone like you, even if they don't know it yet: http://www.co.kern.ca.us/artman2/kcmh/publish/services/index.asp.

 
KJ6EAD  
by NL7SX on December 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I'm sorry to hear that dissertation didn't help you. It wasn't exactly on topic but then, neither were you. Sometimes it takes a lot of words to come at something from the philosophic side and it doesn't seem to be a strong ham suit. ----------- --- There are some people if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Y. Berra
 
going into Full Shadow mode now...........  
by NL7SX on December 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
The end of the world is at hand...repent!
 
RE: going into Full Shadow mode now...........  
by K6JPA on December 4, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I think this article has pretty well hit rock bottom at this point...
 
Ooops...slipped out of shadow mode, temporarily!  
by NL7SX on December 5, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
There are some people if they can't see it, you can't show them!
 
RE: Ooops...slipped out of shadow mode, temporarily!  
by K6JPA on December 5, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, you're right. And obviously, you can't see it, regardless of how others have tried to show you. Good luck with your endeavors, and lets hope they don't get you into too much trouble.
 
Bottom line Jack, This is how it is.....  
by KD7YVV on December 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
My God, it's been over a month......
Jack, you still believe in this 'full shadowing' idea.
Simply amazing. You say we are the ones with closed
eyes, yet paid, trained, professional responders,
not to mention hams who have been involved in EMCOMM
hams that are already a part of an ARES/RACES group
who have gotten the proper credentials, proper ID's
and have become known to their cities and served agencies
through proper channels, taken the proper training as
requested by the served agency have told you over and
over. I will tell you one more time, then I will give
you an example of an event that happened yesterday.
I'll be wasting my time, but I'll make the effort.

#1. If you are not known to your city via an ARES/RACES
group that has a Memorandum Of Understanding with that
city, YOU WILL NOT BE CALLED OR ACTIVATED IN ANY WAY.

#2. If you have not been properly credentialed, and
passed a background check with flying colors,
YOU WILL NOT BE CALLED OR ACTIVATED IN ANY WAY.

#3. If you have not been specifically asked to show
up at an event to serve at a specific post,
YOU WILL NOT BE CALLED OR ACTIVATED IN ANY WAY.

Now, here is the real life example of what would have
happened to you had you shown up at our event yesterday
in an attempt to 'shadow' and refused to leave.
First, a description of the event:

It was a boat cruise for developmentally delayed and
disabled children and adults.

Now, had you shown up at my posting, you would have
been immediately asked to leave as you are not known
to my agency, are not covered under city insurance,
and you do not have any proof of the proper training
or ID cards. Had you refused and insisted on 'helping'
Seattle police would have been called, you would have
been arrested for trespassing, your ID will have been
run through local, state and federal databases to see
if you are a registered sex offender anywhere in the
country. That arrest and sex offender inquiry would
come up for any police officer that stops you in the
future. Your fingerprints will be taken whether you
are charged or not. Those fingerprints will also
be kept on file. I told you in previous postings here
Jack, cops here and all over the USA are quite on
edge due to the death of four local officers here.
They're not going to put up with this 'full shadowing'
nonsense. They're not going to care that you're a
ham operator, they're not going to care that you have
a radio. And they are certainly not going listen to
anything you have to say. They'll tell you to tell it
to the judge. You'll be told to be quiet, read your
rights, and be put in the back of a squad car and
hauled off to jail until you either get a lawyer and
bail yourself out, or someone has the time to deal
with you. Then I hope you have a VERY good lawyer,
because you would be charged with trespassing by
my city and the served agency that held the event.
They're not going to care about some 370 page
document you got off the internet.
The fact that there are children involved in the
case will expedite your case and it will get a MUCH
closer review and be scrutinized much more so than
a standard trespassing arrest.

The FCC will also be interested as they do
have the ability to take away your ham license if your
character is called into question and they find you
are not the kind of person they believe should be
holding an Amateur license.

That's not what MIGHT happen if you show up, that's
what WILL happen. I don't know how to make it any
clearer to you Jack.

This following fact is true for my city and I'm sure
other cities as well:

UNKNOWN, UNTRAINED, UN-CREDENTIALED AMATEUR RADIO
OPERATORS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY
EVENT WITHIN CITY LIMITS WHETHER PUT ON BY THE CITY
OR NOT AND ARE SUBJECT TO ARREST AND PROSECUTION
FOR TRESPASSING AT THE VERY LEAST.

YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED A THREAT, DEALT WITH AS A THREAT
AND ARRESTED.

Now, is this perfectly clear to you? If not....
Then please, show up at one of our events....
Give yourself a police record. Screw up your life.
Oh, and as an aside, most employers who do a background
check prior to hiring you.....probably will not.

In all honesty Jack, I didn't bother to even look at
your 370 page document. Know why? Because I know the
rules. You've been told what you need to do, not only
by me, but by people like me, who are trained and
are known to their cities and served agencies.
You've been told by professional responders.
You've been told by others involved in EMCOMM.

You know, I think the only thing that's going to get
it through your head that this full shadowing is a
bad idea, is your arrest and prosecution, or the
revocation of your Amateur Station license.
If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.
It's quite obvious you listen to no one but yourself,
and your ideas. As previously mentioned, no ARES
or RACES group needs such an individual.
I sincerely hope, that police officers and professional
responders read this thread Jack.
I also hope that the FCC's enforcement division reads
it as well.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA

 
Kirkland ARES.....and a wonderful memory.  
by KD7YVV on December 6, 2010 Mail this to a friend!

Jack, everything I've told you, has been my based on my
own experience, training, lessons learned from those more
experienced than I, and the dedication of hams from
Kirkland ARES willing to take a mostly blind man, and
find a way to make him useful within their organization.
I can honestly say Jack, I wouldn't have the experience,
training, and respect of my fellow ARES members today
if I hadn't joined my local group.
Do you want to know how I know I have their respect?

Our local ARES group founder Bob Knight W7MZO who is
now a silent key took a ham who was willing to learn,
asked lots of questions, and give him the training
and knowledge the City of Kirkland required.
That ham almost a decade ago, was eager to learn,
eager to serve, and eager to help any way he could
despite being legally blind.

In 2009, the City of Kirkland, in cooperation with
Bob Knight's family, created the Amateur Radio
Emergency Service award for members of Kirkland
ARES members who have distinguished who've served their
city in the best possible tradition of the Amateur
Radio Service. I was shocked to find, that by vote
of the City of Kirkland's Emergency Coordinator,
and all the members of Kirkland ARES, that I was to be
the first recipient of the "Milton 'Bob' Knight Amateur
Radio Emergency Service Award".

Jack, I didn't get into EMCOMM to win awards and I was
extremely humbled that the City of Kirkland and my
fellow ARES members saw fit to give me an award
just because I was willing to help my city and be a
part of my community. Every time I glance at my
wall, I see that plaque, and remember the ham who
took the opportunity to properly train someone
who was willing to serve.

On the night I received the award, I had a mental
picture of Mr. Knight looking down from above with
a smile on his face saying "Good job.......fat boy" :)

Every post I've posted to you Jack, have their basis
in lessons I learned from Mr. Knight, the City of
Kirkland, and my fellow ARES members.

I really really hope Jack, that you not only get some
training, join your local ARES and forget this whole
'full shadowing' idea. Do it right. You have a lot of
enthusiasm based on the length of replies here.
Get the proper training, you'll be glad you did.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES

 
Fullshadowed my first event this week  
by NL7SX on December 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
It was glorious. I found hams stationed on the course on my 97 mile tour, missed one because I didn't have DF stuff with me. Most of it was cross country using DeLorme imagery, and my GPS in an area I'd never been in before. At one time there was simultaneous activity on 2m, 70cm, and 1 1/4m fm on at least 7 different frequencies. A portable 2m repeater was also monitored and the local repeater was used because many of the hams could not reach it when my Diamond NR2L antenna would. There were other events in the area running simultaneously that I didn't monitor, for lack of time and equipment. No accidents, no hassles at all. Tried to find a lost dog for another ham and the dog showed up at his home. Showed off ham radio to a couple of interested young men and tried to get them familiar with its possibilities. I forgot my signal mirror/heliograph but had a couple requests for position flashes. It would have been more fun with more hams and APRS. Maybe next time. I also cleaned up an area where someone had dumped some trash and removed an old car battery that someone left along the road. One ham even announced that in the future there could be a GMRS repeater!
 
KD7YYV  
by NL7SX on December 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
You should have read that dissertation. It had a nice example of DHS detaining the writer with a defective metal detector and then saying she had done a great service to her country by being stripped and searched!
 
RE: Shadowed?  
by KJ6EAD on December 7, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
If you didn't coordinate your activities with the event organizer, then you just went out and had a fun day or two in the field. How was the cell coverage?
 
RE: KD7YYV  
by KD7YVV on December 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
And that document has what, to do with ham radio?
Just out of curiosity Jack, why haven't you become known
to your local ARES group? As stated previously, you have
the enthusiasm for public service. Also, the ARRL has
a three level Emergency Communications Course you may
find very handy. It explains the ICS (Incident Command
System) and how ARES/RACES and amateur radio fit into
the ICS structure. Also, CERT is a good idea too.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
YYV & EAD  
by NL7SX on December 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
YYV: The visual and aural are a lot of what we do. Analogies could be drawn between the two. What we are and where we are going have aspects in each. EAD: The cell coverage was close to the coverage on the maps which meant that it was poor to excellent depending on the carrier and location.
 
RE: YVV & EAD  
by KJ6EAD on December 8, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Jack, you've said nothing to convince me that skulking around in the vicinity of an organized event hoping for an opportunity to use your radios for something more than your own amusement is somehow better than being a part of the event organization. One can only imagine the personal reasons you may have for declining to join in a mainstream approach to supporting events, instead opting for a self-styled semi-covert methodology. I'm curious as to why you so blithely dismiss all advice that contradicts your notions, but I'm also certain I'll not receive a substantive answer.
 
RE: YYV & EAD  
by KD7YVV on December 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Aside from the fact that ham radio for the most part
works in areas where cell coverage does not, and I
say for the most part is, that there are still parts
of the country that do not have repeater coverage.
All I know Jack is that a lot of people have taken the
time to show you how things work in the EMCOMM world.
I see one of two things: either you do not wish to join
your local ARES/RACES on your own, or you've rubbed
them the wrong way and they want nothing to do with you.
Looking at it logically, those are the two most logical
answers that I can come up with. I don't know.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
EAD & YYV  
by NL7SX on December 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
...EAD: It should not come as surprise that there is considerable diversity in the nature and interests of individual ham radio operators. In my initial message I mentioned some problems that currently arise under situations and suggest there are political problems as well. Liability is a serious matter and the nature of ham operations should be considered carefully when participating. What ham radio IS under emergency and public service conditions takes many forms. I suggested that "Full Shadowing" is a reasonable mode under some conditions. In different forms it could involve short wave listening, scanning, direction finding/transmitter hunting, navigating, tracking, etc; which are all skills useful under some conditions and often fun. ...YVV: My local ARES and RACES people have always had knowledge of my interests in areas I've traveled in and resided. I've handled nets (and monitored)on water and land in Alaska, Washington State, and California with a few lives saved and some lost. Most were not sanctioned by the local authorities prior to the event. They merely happened with the cooperation of all involved; CB, US Coast Guard, BLM, Search & Rescue, Canadian Rescue Society, harbor patrol, other law officers, California Highway Patrol, marine radio, once with aircraft support, and of course hams. The current interpretation of "certified" operators, with police background checks, photo ID cards, and documented training course certification, is not a realistic solution beyond isolated incidents under mostly foreseeable circumstances. The strength of hams, CB'ers, FRS'ers, GMRS'ers, etc is in their diversity and willingness to cooperate at public service events, under minor and severe emergencies, advising the professionals of conditions, as listeners, observers, communicators. Sometimes these operators are the only people available to help or aware that help is needed. The term shadowing could be used for what hams already do routinely when they monitor their fire station and police department. As 'approved' experts with government affiliation/support are organized a false sense of security could be given to the populace and they suffer because of the limits of professional resources to respond. I know many examples of loss that should have been avoided by "professionals". A bad example were those fire chiefs and others that were under the second twin tower when it collapsed. They died radio deaf.
 
another example of professionals at work  
by NL7SX on December 9, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101210/ap_on_bi_ge/us_misplaced_planes
 
Being there versus shadowing  
by KJ6EAD on December 10, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I don't see a problem with people having skills and equipment that may be useful in an emergency. I've been involved in plenty of situations where "self rescue" and rescue by others who were on hand has been the only effective option since the timescale of the emergency made official response moot. I think you cross a line into sociopathy though, when you intentionally and covertly seek out opportunities to use your skills and equipment to serve a hero fantasy instead of making yourself and your capabilities known to those you intend to benefit.

Going to an event with the intention of involving yourself in a pseudo official capacity is not any more socially acceptable than crashing a party or joining a couple on their date just because you have a first aid kit and a fire extinguisher and know how to use them.
 
RE: Being there versus shadowing  
by KD7YVV on December 10, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
OK let's pull this apart and have a look shall we?

'YVV: My local ARES and RACES people have always had knowledge of my interests in areas I've traveled in and resided.'

Then why haven't you joined and gone through the
training that is required by the agencies your local
ARES serves? As I said previously, you do have the
enthusiasm, so why not take the training offered?

' I've handled nets (and monitored)on water and land in Alaska, Washington State, and California with a few lives saved and some lost.'

You haven't in the area of Washington I'm from.
Our search and rescue uses its own members and doesn't
accept outside help. Most SAR organizations don't
either because of the liability issue.
And as previously stated, my local ARES up here
wouldn't use you unless you were a member and have
gone through the proper background checks etc. etc.

' Most were not sanctioned by the local authorities prior to the event. They merely happened with the cooperation of all involved; CB, US Coast Guard, BLM, Search & Rescue, Canadian Rescue Society, harbor patrol, other law officers, California Highway Patrol, marine radio, once with aircraft support, and of course hams.'

I'm having a bit of trouble believing this one.
Let's use ARES as an example.
All of those agencies will not use ARES (ie: outside
help) without a specific MOU between the served
agency (Police/Fire/Professional Responders) and
the outside agency offering the help (ARES/RACES/SAR/SKYWARN). It's just not done. Sorry.
Also, no event put on by any agency be it a bike race
foot race, boat race, parade, etc. doesn't just
"merely happen". Such things are planned and all parties
in that plan understand their specific roles and what
is expected of them.
As stated by myself and others, there are liability
issues to consider. No agency is going to say, well
we didn't have enough manpower so we just picked up
this ham with a radio and sent him in to help us.
Sorry Jack, it's just not done.

The current interpretation of "certified" operators, with police background checks, photo ID cards, and documented training course certification, is not a realistic solution beyond isolated incidents under mostly foreseeable circumstances.

Actually, it is the most realistic solution possible.
This is a post 9/11 world Jack. As previously mentioned,
why do you think hams from outside Katrina's area were
turned away? As previously stated, and I will use
all caps here: THEY WERE UNKNOWN TO THE LOCAL AGENCIES
INVOLVED IN DEALING WITH THE DISASTER.


'The strength of hams, CB'ers, FRS'ers, GMRS'ers, etc is in their diversity and willingness to cooperate at public service events, under minor and severe emergencies, advising the professionals of conditions, as listeners, observers, communicators.'

Agreed, but such events take into account that help
BEFORE the event. There are MOU's in place between
those hams and the served agencies, (bike race organizers etc. etc) that are agreed upon BEFORE
those events begin. As I stated using my own city as
an example, The Kirkland ARES groups has an MOU with
the Fire & Building Department, City of Kirkland to
provide communications should Kirkland ARES be
activated. Kirkland ARES, in obtaining the MOU, has
asked the city what was needed.

Background checks for all ARES members.
Training in Emergency Communications.
Familiarity with the communications system used by the city.
In return, ARES members fell under the same insurance
policy as the city firefighters but ONLY IF THEY WERE
OFFICIALLY ACTIVATED BY THE EMERGENCY COORDINATOR.
ARES members follow the city's emergency plan upon
activation. They don't self activate (as previously
stated, this is a no-no) and go only where they are
assigned.

'Sometimes these operators are the only people available to help or aware that help is needed. The term shadowing could be used for what hams already do routinely when they monitor their fire station and police department. As 'approved' experts with government affiliation/support are organized a false sense of security could be given to the populace and they suffer because of the limits of professional resources to respond. I know many examples of loss that should have been avoided by "professionals". A bad example were those fire chiefs and others that were under the second twin tower when it collapsed. They died radio deaf.'

Oh, don't get me started on 9/11 Jack.
It has been known for years that radio communications
in New York City suffer from extreme multipath issues,
and dead zones. That happens at VHF/UHF frequencies.
FDNY radios are only a few MHZ above the two meter ham
band. I simply refuse to believe, that ham radio would
have made a difference that day. Have you gone online
and listened to Police/Fire/EMS for that day?
There were professionals responding from all over, even
from my home state of New Jersey.

Not even the professional responders are prepared for
every and any situation that comes up. 9/11 was no
different and you can't tell me that some ham who
took a test, learned a little radio theory, and studied
a few FCC rules would've been prepared for that event.

I'm sorry Jack, but I flat out refuse to believe it.
You say those men died radio deaf. They would've died
regardless of whether they had FDNY radios or ham
radios. They are in the same VHF band.
They gave their lives doing the jobs they were TRAINED
to do, and no ham, not me, not you, could've done
better regardless of our license class, ARES affiliation,
or training. I honestly don't know how you can sit
at your keyboard and judge what happened on 9/11.

I've been to the World Trade Center Jack. Even out on
the observation deck, and it was indeed a very tall
structure. So tell me, how would you have handled it?
Those men did the best they could with the knowledge
and TRAINING they had and for you to sit there and
say the decisions made by those men are a 'bad example'
dishonors their memories. Sorry Jack, I've come to
the conclusion that when it comes to 9/11, you have no
idea what you are talking about.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland ARES
 
RE: Being there versus shadowing  
by K6JPA on December 10, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
I was going to write a long-winded reply to Jack's note, but both EAD and YVV have done excellent jobs at summarizing what I would have added. There is little need to say much else, other than that I felt it was getting a bit deep while reading all the supposed agencies that traffic netting had been done for. As YVV stated, it doesn't happen that way.

Regarding 9/11.... I don't give a rats rear end as to how many "radios, scanners, computers, antennas, batteries, power generation, and other equipment/vehicles" a "first class radio operator", or army of them acting as "full shadowers" (a.k.a. freelancers) for that matter, might have been on scene. The tragic outcome would have been the same for the innocent victims and first responders there.

I'm a bit curious why no ARES/RACES group from the Kern County area has stepped up to offer assistance in helping you get involved Jack...

Oh wait... never mind... I get it.
 
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!  
by NL7SX on December 11, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
And a Happy New Year!
 
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