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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?

from Why restrictions on a simple wire? on May 28, 2012
View comments about this article!

I have asked so many times but never received an answer so I will ask here.

So you can’t have a tower but what is the big deal over a long end-fed wire?

If you put up a flagpole it's OK, but if you tell the HOA commies it’s a covert antenna then it must come down.

So I am still asking what harm can a end fed wire do?

Also just for your information, a place in Toms River, NJ had so many rules and regulations my Dad got sick from the stress.

Today it is ham heaven and retired hams are living there and have towers and wire antennas so I assume some smart lawyer found a loop hole or perhaps non hams that had different restrictions backed up the hams and protested against the Commies and WON!!!

BOB
AF2Q

Member Comments:
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HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N4UM on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
No reason...just policy!
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K2NEW on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
HOA Commies? Antenna Commies?

What happened to Antenna NAZIS?

Our neighborhood is very conservative... everyone wants uncluttered skies, see what THEY want to see, do what THEY want and preserve THEIR property values. Not much interest in what you want to do or need (to get a decent signal out) if it clutters THEIR sky. No towers, no beams, no visible wires and no flagpoles. It's a brochure perfect looking, picture pretty, we've made it to the good life place. Remember the old 1960"s Patrick McGoohan show, The Village?

Who knows? You might be in the underground, sending secret messages to the allies. We can't afford to threaten the good life of the privileged classes and the blessed property values with a flagpole (and American Flag) or a few carefully concealed wires on the backside of the roof.

Heil! (and that ain't a fancy microphone)
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WA4SCA on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Sadly, many people just like to tell other people what to do. It makes them feel good. When the other person wants to do something they don't understand, and are then threatened by, the desire is all the greater.

Years ago, I live in a great location with no CC&Rs, on a heavily wooded lot. You had to come into my back yard, or look carefully from one of my neighbors, to see the antenna. One of those neighbors was a realtor who was always nattering at me about "running down the property values." It did not set out to do it, but when I moved, I ended up selling to another ham who cut down some trees and erected a 100' tower.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N4UM on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
BTW - There's still time to sign the FCC petition requesting them to void existing developer and HOA antenna restrictions and requiring developers and HOAs to make "reasonable accomodations" by clicking on the link listed below... over 2800 have signed already.

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KB1GMX on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
No HOA or CCRs here. IF someone tried there will
be a battle.

However I've had a few comment on the 30ft tower and
antennas. My answer is always the same, whats your
offer? Usually that gets a "What?". and I explain
that if they are telling me what I can or should do
on my property they must be offering something like
paying the mortgage or taxes. that usually shuts
them up as they realize its MY property not theirs.
I had one persist and I asked if He could rid his
property of Catulpa trees as they produce pods that
are a mess to clean up on my property and the seeds
sprout and considered a noxious species. Well, you
can imagine the indignation over cutting his precious
trees down just for me. He was about to get all wound
up when it hit him I had no say on his property and
he had none on mine with one difference, my aluminum
doesn't fall on his yard or have to be weeded from
the his gardens!

The busy bodies and HOA types have to be impressed
if they want control, it's got to cost them too.
And I mean dearly, like they can't feed the birds because it attracts vermin or worse. If they get
it (power/control) for free in their mind they want
more. Otherwise buying into a HOA is supporting
a micro-government sans due process.


Allison
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AF3Y on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I could easily be wrong (I usually Am.....), BUT I have always felt when the "average Joe or Jane" sees ANY KIND of ANTENNA besides a dish, their first or second thought is "OH MY GOD, ONE OF THOSE DAMNED CB'ERS. WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO WATCH TV IN PEACE AGAIN".

Whether that is the case or not, I know from experience that probably 65 to 75 percent of the NA population dont know the difference between CB and Ham radio operators. All they know is the nut who drives by blasting the picture upside down on their TV with his illegal amplifier. Or, God forbid, the guy who lived in their old neighborhood with the wires and antennas and things all over the place who was always heard on their phone, TV etc.

Maybe I am wrong, but that is ONE of the reasons for the stupidity of the rules that forbid antennas. Try to educate these folks? Not a chance.....:(
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KB2DHG on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I have replied to a similar question on this post before... Bottom line it is just a power struggle... I had to move from a house to a condo and still needed to have my HAM RADIO HOBBY I wanted to put up a G5RV It would not even be seen or perminatly attached to the building BUT THE HOA said NO antennas! Well, as I looked around I counted 16 DISH "TV antennas" And 3 small antennas for the decoder box for regulat tv...
SO Since the HOA said NO antennas I sent them a complaint that there were violators of the house rules... I am happy to report that my G5RV has been up for 5 years now... NO COMPLAINTS... YEA I WOULD LOVE TO PUT UP A ROTATING BEAM but I was willing to make compromises... Honestly there should be NO problems with a wire or too, these HOA's just like to be hard nosed about everything. I am not advocating being sneeky or dishonest. but if you can hide a wire and get on the air just do it... and if you are found out, just ask the question is it that unsightly? anyone with an honest heart has to say NO.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K1CJS on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
They are the results of CBers who overpower their rigs, and (sad to say) some hams that run more than a kilowatt when they don't have to. Complaints and stories that developers or their lawyers see--and then try to avoid in their fancy new developments. They set up these CC&R areas where no transmitting is allowed.

Others just see the wants of some new homeowners--that they have absolutely NOTHING that is going to sully their view of the surrounding area. That's where the CC&Rs that prohibit anything (unless approved) that "detracts" from the view, whether that be simple wires across a yard or a tower that a ham may want to erect--along with no cars on blocks, no unregistered or undriveable cars, no flagpoles, no flashy paint jobs, etc.

It doesn't matter if you're a QRPer that wouldn't bother anyone, all they see is someone who (they think) is going to bother them in one way or another, and it's very hard--if not impossible--to make them see that that is NOT the case.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K2FOX on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Another HOA thread? Really? Not to hurt anyones feelings but this subject has been beaten like a dead horse.

Some more technical subject matter, please.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KD5KFL on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
everybody in HOA / CCR neighborhoods worships at The Church of Property Values.

In NM you can find land where you have no idea what your neighbors are up to 'cause you can't see 'em, hear 'em or smell 'em. dozen dead cars in the front yard, target practice from a rocking chair on the front porch, 160 meter loop - none of your business if you don't know it's happening.

now who is living better - the guy with a McMansion who can't park his motorhome in the driveway or put up a basketball hoop, or the guy who lives in a double wide on an irrigation ditch, no noise, no neighbors, running water, dogs running free, and no zoning?
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K4IA on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Years ago (I know as far back as the 70s) the Veterans Administration published a model set of covenants and builders knew if you followed that model you could get VA loans in your subdivision. Needless to say, everyone adopted the model and it had an antenna restriction. All the restrictions were supposedly to protect property values although no one has ever substantiated that they work.

As a young attorney, I would routinely "forget" to put the antenna restriction in and no one noticed the omission. Somewhere in Northern Virginia hams have antennas thanks to my small act of sabotage against the power of Leviathan.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K7CB on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I'll tell you why there are HOA's about antennas - because the banks that financed the development for the developer required them. It was part of the underwriting. Why? My best guess is because when someone says "antenna" people immediately start thinking about those old, rusting TV antennas with bent or broken elements you can still find mounted on top of older homes because someone is too lazy to take the thing down even though it probably hasn't been used for over 20 years. So, ALL antennas are simply lumped together - regardless of the size or what purpose they serve. In my opinion, the only reason TV antennas and dishes were eventually exempted from HOAs/CC&Rs is because money was involved. The FCC may say such rules limited competition, which it does, but it really came down to the fact that people couldn't subscribe to services such as Dish or Direct TV...so those two companies complained and put up a fight. Unfortunately, the FCC chose to make these exemptions only for antennas that provide TV service, otherwise, the HOA/CC&R language stayed the same - encompassing ALL antennas EXCEPT those used for TV.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF4HR on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The reason typically involves trying to maintain property values, but unfortunately can sometimes cause type-A personalities to try to impose their control over others (policing others). In a lot of cases, those that push for HOA rules and regs have nothing better to do.

Don't overlook the possibility of hiring a lawyer and over turning community HOA's and CCR's. Odds of this happening are good if there are a small percentage of type-A personalities that are aggressively trying to control the majority of land owners. Read your HOA and CCR doc's carefully. Normally HOA's and CCR's can be eliminated totally if the minimum percentage of required signatures can be obtained, typically 75-80%. Legal fees can be spread across multiple land owners, reducing individual costs.

 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF6VB on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Here's my take on it. First we have to ask: why are there HOAs? There are HOAs because HOAs save the counties money. The HOA owns the roads and maintains them. Yet, the county receives full property taxes from the residents.

How does the county get developers to form HOAs? They do it by having strict requirements for infrastructure that are WAIVED or MODIFIED if the development remains private. One example is width of roads. In our county, public roads must be IIRC 40 feet wide, with sidewalks on each side. Private roads OTOH can be narrower. Now, imagine you're a developer. You can build roads to the public standard - and have less houses, because the roads take up space - or you can build smaller, private roads, have more lots, and MAKE MORE MONEY. It's a no-brainer for a developer.

OK, the developer decides to do it with CC&Rs and an HOA. Can't have an HOA without CC&R's because the CC&Rs define the HOA. A deed restriction is a complex, legally binding document. The developer doesn't know squat about this stuff, and he goes to a LAWYER. The lawyer reaches into his HOA/CC&R file and pulls out the document he did the last time, which contains every word the lawyer has ever written or seen written about HOAs. He throws it into Microsoft Word, changes it a bit, charges the developer a hefty legal fee, and gives him the document, which the developer then goes and has recorded at the county on the deed of every single house lot.

Right, now we know why there are CC&Rs and HOAs. Why antenna restrictions? The answer to that is the cable companies. Many years ago, they gave incentives to developers to prohibit all antennas - in exchange for which, they wired the developments for cable for free. Another no-brainer for developers. This was a long time ago, I don't know if they're still doing it, but the language wound up in the lawyer's file cabinet, part of his HOA package.

 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE7VT on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
If you move into an HOA with restrictive CC&R's then you deserve what you get. You can have just as nice a place to live with an association telling you what to do. Lots of hams do just that and do not subject themselves to the rules and restrictions of those who want to control every one else's lives....
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF4HR on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"There are HOAs because HOAs save the counties money."

"The HOA owns the roads and maintains them."

Although the above statement are true in certain developments, such as gated communities and such, I don't agree with the above statements being true with every HOA/CCR environment.

Before over-turning (legally eliminating) our HOA and CCR, our restrictive documentation had nothing to do with maintaining roads or saving the county money. Rather it was just a selling point that the land developer had hoped would bring in sales.

There are numerous reasons why HOA's & CCR's become established, and each is different.

As for antenna installation. Don't forget, even if you don't have a HOA restrictions, there are other county laws that may come into play. For example at my last qth I had no HOA restrictions but when it came to tower installations our county had a rule that stated that if the tower were to fall, it had to fall on my property only. Luckily I owned a couple of acres of property, but for those on smaller sized lots their tower height options were limited.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K8QV on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
They exist because a lot of people want them and a lot more just go along and put up with it. They don't have the balls to just say 'NO' and move on to freedom elsewhere. If people would stop buying homes (they won't ever really own) in those neighborhoods.....well, that's just too much common sense. Sorry.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K4PP on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"So I am still asking what harm can a end fed wire do?"

The harm is that everybody else in the neighborhood also gave up something when they moved in. They thought long and hard about this before closing on their house. One guy puts up a wire antenna. No harm right? So the next guy hangs a hammock between those two perfect trees in the side yard. Then, the guy over there blows his leaves into the middle of the street and calls it a day, and etc. etc. Soon there is no HOA anymore and control is lost. Everyone in the neighborhood moved in because the HOA offer this. That's the only purpose they serve and to the people living in them it is a key feature.

K4PP
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KB1GMX on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
K4PP makes a point..

With freedom to do whatever there is the responsibility to do the right and legal things.

For example you blow the leaves into the street,that's rude and you have the responsibility to clean up.
Some places feel for the freedom of having a landscape firm do this for a fee we absolve the lazy the responsibility at the accepted reduction in of
freedom to use that land as you see fit as it now community property of sorts.

It's possible to have CC&Rs and a HOA that is not empowered to be the mini-gov but people have to act.
Than entails being responsible or in other words work.
Why did they move there, work avoidance.

Allison
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Everyone in the neighborhood moved in because the HOA offer this."

I doubt most people even know that a neighborhood has CC&Rs until they are presented the document to sign on closing day. People look for a house in a nice neighborhood (i.e. low crime) near work with a good school system. People don't go out shopping for HOAs when they're buying a house.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KT4EP on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
This may have been beaten to death, as commented, however I get some ideas from the ingenuity of some fellow hams.

And as I commented before, sometimes restrictions are good as in a local fellow with Zero sense, dug a 1 foot hole on the side of his house to stick a tall Rohn mast in the ground and barely attached it to the peak of his roof... and didn't see the reason for guy lines even though the mast, if it fell, would hit someone's car or home, or even worse a person. And no lightning protection, either. So until we hams persuade the village idiots among us to use some common sense, there will definitely continue to be HOA CCR issues.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N4JTE on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I guess we are back to "non articles" with simple button pushing retread questions, boring.
Bob
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N4UM on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Just remember...the horse is not really dead until the fat lady sings.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KG6IRW on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't normally post for retreaded CC&R queries. This time, however, I'll add my experience as the president of a "Home-moaners" Association:

Short Version
-------------

1) Old CC&Rs never contemplated the breadth of technologies in use in today's residences. Many CC&Rs were written without thought to the future and most were a reaction to keeping TV aerials out of sight.

2) Ham clubs and related trade associations did not pick up on the issue until many CC&Rs had been put in place. Most law firms specializing in HOAs were not influenced by these trade associations.

3) The onus to rewrite CC&Rs to is on each HOA Board of Directors. The process is draconian and many Boards do not have good processes in place to handle it. It is costly.

In other words, HOA Boards have few options when trying to deal with new technologies such as WiFi, Cell Phones, DSL/cable modems, etc. As a result, they fall back on the original CC&R verbiage since it is the 'safest' approach, none of which contemplated the explosion of technologies we take for granted today.

The Long Version
----------------

- The CC&Rs the Board of Directors and I had to deal with were written in 1978. At that time, about the only thing for communication was a hard-wired telephone and CATV. The CC&Rs contemplated the use of external roof-top aerials by forbidding them with verbiage that could be interpreted as any antenna. All 55 of the units were, therefore, wired with 4-wire phone line and a coax drop into each living room and master bedroom. Since the phone company 'owned' the telephones and wiring, it was assumed they would handle any problems. CATV's promise to provide an alternative to broadcast TV That was the extent the CC&Rs went to for awarding the Board of Directors enforcement power.

- Over the decades, however, Dish TV, internet via DSL or Cable and other forms of wireless communication such as 802.x for computers pushed the boundaries of the CC&R regulations the Board of Directors had to work with.

- For many boards, like the one I was on, the easiest way was just to fall back onto the original verbiage and forbid it all.

- So what happened? We woke up to discover that the Telephone Company had broken up and no longer cared about all that wiring in the condos. Ditto for the cable companies. They had also outsourced all their installation to 3rd parties who would do the work the cheapest. Later, they just had the owner be responsible for the costs of installation and washed their hands of the issue.

- So, what did we find in the condo complex? A mess. We found wiring tacked to roofs, wires run through dryer vent pipes and through plumbing vent stacks. We had all sorts of abandoned coax and phone wiring throughout the complex, strung across buildings and even wrapped around light poles! In other words, the CC&Rs did not give the Board the enforcement powers to stop this mess because the idea that the phone and cable companies would not be in the installation business was never contemplated in the CC&Rs!

- Rewriting the CC&Rs: So, our board consulted with our law firm who told us that we had to rewrite the CC&Rs, provide guidelines for these 3rd party installers and then set up penalties for home owners who had contracted with errant installers! This never flew with the Board nor with the broader home-moaners. It was too expensive to pay for legal writing, too complex for most of the condo owners to understand and too divisive to pass the 2/3 vote needed to pass into CC&Rs.

- So, what was the result? The Board fell back on enforcing the original CC&Rs as they stood.

- What does that mean to a ham in the condo complex? He would still fall under the 'no antennas' rule. Further, he would incur fines and penalties that, if not paid, would attached as a property lein to be paid whenever the unit was sold.

- Could the ham run a long wire somewhere out of his condo? Sure, he could, but the choice could be risky from the HOA standpoint.

I will be most interested in what the FCC does with all of the comments they're collecting right now on the subject and mentioned in an earlier post here.

If I were still a Director on an HOA board (I'm not these days), I would be open to hearing about new ideas that could allow me as a Director to declare some guidelines that could be put in place without forcing a rewrite of the existing CC&Rs.

The fact that people choose to pool interests in a HOA with rules set out in CC&Rs will need to figure out how to handle adoption of new technologies in some way. They're all grappling with it, I'm sure. Those that aren't will fine that much more wire strung around their common areas.

What can you do now if you're in an HOA under CC&Rs?

Answer: Get on the Board of Directors like I did. You'll find you have far better control over your interests that way. It isn't time consuming and you'll get an idea of what it takes to keep your place safe and sound.

Cheers,

David/KG6IRW
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K7IOA on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
In answer to the OP's question, the reason is because people want to live in clean neighborhoods free from looking at other people's crap in their yard and on the street. I don't live in a HOA, no plans to do so. I have a 35 pole connected to the house with a TH3JRS on top. That said, I keep the yard well groomed and all my stuff is behind a fence. Most of the neighborhood is pretty well taken care of but we have some neighbors who like to park their motorhome on the street next to a corner, neighbor who thinks peeling paint and 6-9 inch tall grass is the way to go and planted trees that are into the sidewalk making it hard to walk. I understand the reasons, not everyone likes looking at antennas. Mine is pretty well blocked from view for most of the neighborhood. I think my next antenna project may be a hexbeam,they don't require a tower and they are pretty stealthy. As far as those who live in HOA's, I am sorry for you guys.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6WRT on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Why don't HOAs like hams or antennas? Why do you think?

Over the years a lot of hams have acquired a bad reputation for ugly towers and TVI. And too many of them have an arrogant attitude about it too. The HOAs can't ban radio transmitting outright, so they do the next best thing (in their minds) they ban antennas. And they don't care about the difference between a yagi and an end-fed wire. Antenna = BAD.

You think you have a right to put up an antenna? Not if you sign away your rights when you bought the property. Your neighbors have the right to live without ugly (to them) towers and antennas if they want to. Try getting a permit for a 2000 foot TV tower in your neighborhood. Can't do that either.

Don't like living there? Move. I'd guess that 99% of the US land area is not covered HOAs or CC&Rs. Keep looking.

Bill, W6WRT
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WA7AQH on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I don't believe the first time someone sees the CC&Rs for an HOA is at closing. At least in California (where the majority of homes are covered by an HOA), you see them as one of the first documents you're provided.

We live in a reasonable HOA. I have both an inverted V and a 6m/2m/70cm vertical up with informal approval from the board. No one can see it from the front of our house and no one is complaining.

As some have said, a few ruin it for the rest of us; in another house (no HOA) had a neighbor who was a ham that decided he could hang his 80m wire from our trees (without asking) and string a ULF wire clear across the back of our lot (again without asking). He also splattered signal all over the place to where it came through two of our speakers even when the system was turned off. I talked to him several times, but he refused to take any accountablity for the interference and told me his antennas weren't hurting anything and didn't know why I was upset. I just cut down and sold the wire that was on my property and called the FCC. That's why people live in HOAs.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K9CTB on May 28, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I wouldn't live in a so-called "HOA" restricted residence even if the commies *did* pay my mortgage! I am simply elated to see all the resistance by radio amateurs against these ridiculous power-trippers. Usually, in the real world, an unpopular law is unenforceable. It simply has to carry over to these neighborhood socialists in the form of either we the people voting with our wallets or simply throttling state "representatives" until such unpopular restrictions "go away" -- preferably with the people who promote them.

The pendulum is swinging back toward sanity. Shame it wasn't as often and as quickly as the sunspot cycle!!

73,
K9CTB
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K6IHC on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
From what I've observed, 'average' people like CC&Rs. Average, meaning: They have simple hobbies and interests that can be contained inside their residence walls. They enjoy recreational activities that don't often require things like boats, campers, etc. And if those people do own one or more of those, they pay a significant amount of money per month to store/dock it somewhere distant. They own a newer car that is always maintained/repaired at some local auto shop/dealer, and never by them. They like the blanketing conformity and resulting feeling of 'security' that is provided by comprehensive CC&Rs. They don't want to live next to a pink and orange painted house with an antenna on the roof and a boat in the driveway.

I've seen some CC&Rs state that garage doors are only to be open when driving in or out of the garage, and absolutely NO automotive maintenance may occur in the garage. Some do not allow any overnight parking in any of the driveways.

Some municipalities like CC&Rs, as then they don't have to write and enforce a number of local ordinances.

In the small city I live in, the city has a number of reasonable local ordinances that deal with on-street parking, fences, antenna heights, property hazards, and distubances of the peace. Very few residences in my city have restrictive CC&Rs attached to them.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K7CB on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I guess we are back to 'non articles' with simple button pushing retread questions, boring.
Bob"

Then move along. No one forced you to view this.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KT0DD on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
From W6WRT:

"Don't like living there? Move. I'd guess that 99% of the US land area is not covered HOAs or CC&Rs. Keep looking"

It depends on the area.

Most of the newer subdivisions where I live have CC&R's. If I wanted to live in an area without one, I'd have to move to a neighborhood where I'd have to worry about a methamphetamine tweaker climbing my tower to steal my beam so he could sell the aluminum for his next fix. He'd then probably fall or hurt himself and sue me for personal injury and in today's world, he'd win.

The just move or don't buy there is too simplistic a mentality. Some people have this option, but many don't.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
My guess is that most CC&Rs restrict antennas in general rather than being specific about amateur radio antennas. The intent was to prevent looking out over a sea of TV antennas in various states of repair on the roof tops. Once the restriction (that includes amateur antennas) is in place there are homeowners who are going to insist that they are enforced, especially if there is any perception that it might cause interferrence of any type.

The average person has many misconceptions about antennas; They cause interferrence to their radios and TVs. They radiate RF that can "fry" your brain. They attract lightning to the area. They might fall into the neighbor's yard and cause property damage. They soak up all the signals, leaving little for the neighbor's radio or TV (yes, I've actually had that complaint).

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The reason for CC&Rs, generally, has been accurately answered. The reason for antenna restrictions within them was originally to protect the then-flegling CATV business in the early '70s. After all, who would be willing to pay for the same channels you could receive over the air with an outside antenna? (Back then, no premium channels like today).

So, along comes the satellite dish industry. Congress usurps the "CATV-only" monopoly and overrules antenna restrictions that bar reasonable dishes (less than 3 ft in diameter) and any/all over the air TV antennas. Does that fix the problem? The short answer: No. Very few, if any HOAs or developers changed the same old "prohibit everything" language in their recorded documents. Why not? Simply, the effect of seeing the restrictions is a deterrent against satellite dishes, TV antennas, and of course, unsightly amateur radio antennas.

Even if Congress feels sorry for the amateur community and overrides CC&R total bans for reasonable antennas such as wires and simple verticals, do you think the HOAs and developers will remove the total ban language? Heck no. Why should they? The only penalty for leaving it on the books is maybe a few bucks in legal fees if one of the satellite dish applicants or someone who wants a rooftop TV antenna files a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC. Even a favorable ruling doesn't require removal of the offending language from recorded CC&Rs.

The FCC didn't put penalties into regulation 47CFR1.4000 that override CC&Rs for permitted antennas. It needs to, in order to force HOAs and developers to remove the outright illegal language that still exists on the books (and maybe some of us will be incidental winners). Citations and forfeitures should be assessed where such stuff is still on the books.

BTW, for those of you who have intransigent HOA boards, ask them why simple verticals and wires aren't allowed, yet rooftop lightning rod arrays and bonding conductors are? They'll be too afraid to answer. Shoots a big hole in the aesthetics nonsense. The short answer is, of course, they don't want to be sued if lightning should strike and damage a structure with lightning rods placed, sized or limited in any way per their CC&Rs.

My two cents.

73,

Lee
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Even if Congress feels sorry for the amateur community and overrides CC&R total bans for reasonable antennas such as wires and simple verticals, do you think the HOAs and developers will remove the total ban language?"

No, but they'll likely back down when you present them with the FCC rule just like they do for OTARD. Eventually they'll get tired of dealing with it and many will include the changes in future revisions of their CC&Rs - just like they have with OTARD.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KD7YVV on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I look at it this way, my property, my rules.
I remember reading, I think it was on here something
about someones's HOA saying take your antenna
(not permanently mounted just on a small tripod on a
patio) down or they would do it for him. Lucky that
wasn't me. I'd have said, my property, my stuff,
don't like it, buy my house. Too many people just like
telling other people what to do instead of minding their
own business. How people can live in such fear I'll never know.

 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC0ZPS on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Its probably the same reason that I can't have my garage door open for more than two hours (yes, they have that listed as something I cannot do). I think the goal for my neighborhood is to have every house look exactly the same. Goal accomplished, really. I almost pulled into the wrong house the other day.

Anyway, I'm a little surprised no one has complained about my vertical yet. I ended up going the route of "its easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". I installed the 25' Hustler 6BVT antenna in smack dab in the middle of my backyard without getting permission or anything. You can't see it from the front yard. Anyway, its been 17 months and no one has complained yet.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Now that you have posted to E-Ham, they will!

Some of the 1/2 acre lot type CC&R HOA communities ban clothslines, and overnight Boy Scout (and otherwise) tents from the lawns. Fences are either forbidden or must meet neighborhood standards along with mailboxes.

HOAs belong to the developer and are his selling enforcement tool until he has gotten his money out of the development.

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6SDM on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
You know, when HOAs started, their involvement in people's lives was minimal and their mission was to promote the interests of the homeowners in a neighborhood. They influenced things like the paving of roads, trash pickup, city maintenance of common areas and vacant lots, etc.

As they evolved, Realtors and builders exerted their influence to promote their interests, which was selling homes, rather than the homeowners interests. Somehow they managed to convince people that if their neighbor painted their house lavender or put up a 35-foot tower, it would lower the value of their home. It won't. It may reduce the number of people who would be interested in buying the home but it won't impact the value.

In today's world, HOAs have become the epitome of social compliance. It wouldn't surprise me to see that in the future they will regulate what color your car could be. Some already control the color of drapery visible from outside the home.

I live in a rural area. I have a couple of acres dedicated to antennas. My neighbor has an amateur junkyard. I have planted enough trees that I can't see his property from mine. Poor guy - he can't plant trees tall enough to hide my 50-foor towers. :)
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The biggest problem with CC&Rs is that their proliferation and sameness has given them the scope of an autocratic government without the responsibility to be deal fairly with its minority members. By minority, I do not mean racial minority, I mean members of a self-selected minority group, such as boat owners, amateur radio operators, etc. Any government that mistreats its minority members can expect those members to eventually find a way to take action.

From my viewpoint as a homeowner, the major benefit of a CC&R is that it effectively prevents HUD from buying distressed properties. Yes, that's good to some extent. But from a larger social context, it's not a good thing to say "You cannot live here."
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K9COX on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I think there should be a CAVE organization (citizens against virtually everything)
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WX7G on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The reason?

People generally do not like antennas. Look at your cell phone; no visible antenna. Satellite TV did not take off until it could be done with small home antennas. Look at the current crop of automobiles with very small external AM/FM antennas or AM/FM antennas embedded in the glass. Do you see the antenna in your laptop? No, it's hidden inside because nobody wants to see it. These antennas compromise electrical performance so people don't have to look at them. And people don't want to look at your antennas either.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WB2WIK on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Rules are substitute for thought. When nobody has time to think, rules work.

Having lived in an HOA once (1988-1989) I doubt I'd ever do it again. It was an interesting experience but once is enough.

Easy enough to find a home anywhere without this encumbrance.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB:No, but they'll likely back down when you present them with the FCC rule just like they do for OTARD. Eventually they'll get tired of dealing with it and many will include the changes in future revisions of their CC&Rs - just like they have with OTARD."

Not really. You need to read the comments in the FCC proceeding. 12-91.

In most cases, the language hasn't changed in the 16 years OTARD has been in force. The FCC still receives Petitions for Declaratory Ruling routinely.
A much less expensive process than what is required to attempt to enforce PRB-1.

In any case, no, developers won't change their language. It will be just like PRB-1. High fees for attorneys and "see you in court" from your friendly HOA. In spite of what is promulgated by the FCC, if it ever happens.

Lee




 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N4JTE on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Closest I ever got to the hoa commandos was/is home in coral springs, fl. Of course no antennas and correct colored bags for the garbage, defeated the antenna thing with push up fiberglass vertical running port. mobile, the garbage bag thing is just dumb, hi
Bob
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K5RMD on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I asked my realtor when I was looking at a property, what cc&r's are with this property? Her answer was, what is a cc&r? I bought the house. I have a fan dipole up on a push up. No one has complained. It is great. I love it.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on May 29, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Her answer was, what is a cc&r?"

It's best to be sure. In '05 when I was looking for my retirement home, I asked that same question. The response was "I don't know. I'm sure it's OK." I insisted they get me a copy and had to walk from an otherwise nice house.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K5SBR on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
HOA CC&R's are crafted by lawyers on a state by state basis. However, they all use the same basic document which contains the antenna prohibition. How it got there in the first place is anybody's guess.

But, when I worked with a builder to put up condos and a new townhouse sub-division, I purposefully edited the "standard language" to allow for "reasonable accommodation for only licensed radio amateurs so as to encourage the availability of emergency communications".

Having lived in apartments and condos most of my life (more than 50 years a ham), I have found several items of great value. First, is an article in a 1948 QST about invisible antennas. Second, are the rolls of #20 and finer wire, along with monofilament fishing line, that I keep at hand. Third, and most important, is living by the saying that "T'is far easier to beg forgiveness, than to ask permission."

The best antenna I've ever had was an 8 foot fiberglass fishing rod, fitted with a clamp and a specially built insulated reel with #28 wire on it. I lived on the 18th floor in downtown Houston and had to explain to guys on 75 that I was running a top-fed quarter-wave vertical (but only at night). The counterpoise is another story.

Ya' gotta be sensible and not create a hazard, but you can still get on the air.

73 & best DX,
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KJ6ETL on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Talk to them about leaf blowers and other motorized noise makers... Not that's a nuisance!!!
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K2TV on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The answer is not to move to a homeowers restricted area.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The question is how to safely find a place to live within a reasonable commute of work and for less than 250K in investment.

I did it but was lucky enough to find my kind of work out in the boonies. No cable, no DSL, no street lights. K-Mart within reason, but no shopping center closer than 25 miles. Works for me, but there ain't a lot of situations like this. Before that situation was about the same but work was 31 miles one way.

You can avoid the dreaded HOA but every year the cost goes up to do so.

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N9GGG on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Are HOA's and CC&R's killing ham radio or making hams more smart as to how to post or build antennas
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by LNXAUTHOR on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
i live in an HOA... and i have an antenna - an inverted 'v' using the tree out back... but my antenna is stealthy and unobtrusive...

and i'm a board member (probably the most important one - the treasurer)

our HOA homeowners don't give a romeo alpha about *reasonable* antennas, but they do care that HOA dues are paid and that folks maintain their homes' exteriors and yards...

(i doubt most young homeowners today even know what a 'CB'er is)

an HOA and 'CC&R' protects neighbors from neighbors with an 'ID'-10-T problem - no one likes to live next door to a slob with a car up on blocks in the driveway, a house needing a paint job, and rotting and molding facia (overgrown grass gets a quick response by our city code enforcement)

most DOCs (declaration of covenants) use an initial boiler-plate language supplied by the builder - and many HOAs expire after 25 years...

just my experience
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AD7GU on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
the tv show was "the prisoner" avail on dvd
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N0SAP on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We think our kids are cute. Hams think towers and large yagi's are a beautiful thing. Others think it's an ugly monstrosity and my electric mixer quit working, the car won't start, and the cat has been sick since that THING when up in the air.

I lived in a CC&R, I had wonderful neighbors. They let me put up a modest push pole with a Cushcraft D-40 Rotatable Dipole. I was a happy camper until that piece of crap from California moved end way down the street.

He pitched a fit and told me all the things mentioned above. So I decided to move to the county. After being at the new QTH over three years I had to thank that jerkoff for doing me to biggest favor EVER. Now I am living the dream that all Hams wish they had.

"SAP" NØSAP

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE5QB on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...."

Yep, I didn't care much for the time my next door neighbor thought the back seat out of a 64 Impala made great front lawn furniture. Or when my other neighbor thought it would be nice to have a couple of chickens and a rooster in his back yard. Or when another neighbor thought changing oil in his driveway on weekends was a great second job - it probably was except for the fact that there were always 7-10 cars parked up and down the street every weekend. Unfortunately in some ways, and necessary in others, when we live within peeing distance of each other we have to have rules that favor no one. It amazes me how many hams cannot step out of their own biased views and look at it from another person's standpoint for a while.

"Now I am living the dream that all Hams wish they had...."

I don't necessarily agree with this point. Most hams are not poor folks. They could move to a more rural location where they could have antennas, if they chose to do so. The issue is that most of us would like to have our cake and eat it to. We like the good but complain about the bad. All things considered, for me, the positives of living in an HOA outweigh the bad. When they don't, I will move.

With the age of the average ham, we will all be dead before this issue gets resolved. The HOAs have very strong lawyers and lobbyists and not many people see this issue from the Ham's point of view. Sorry! That is just reality.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N9GGG on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Ok OK HOA's and CC&r's are a fine thing as long as it is to keep the neighbor from letting the front lawn grow like corn or have 20 junk cars parked on a lawn thats a good point but my back yard is mine some HOA's and CC&r's you need permission to even put in a pool or swing set so I dont move in them .....when my power went down for 3-4 days I had power from my generator neighbors wanted to use my frig same ones that said I cant have a antenna outside ....you know what I said
 
WHY?  
by WB9QEL on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not sure why folks in this hobby bicker about this issue. Are the Ham guys that move into these places stupid? You chose to live there and they chose to make the rules. Live with it or move. How do people not get this concept?

 
Wants cake, and wants to eat it, too!  
by AI2IA on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Common sense says, "Don't go there!"
If you can't avoid it for some reason, then accept it and improvise.
Ham radio is so diverse that anyone who puts his will to it can successfully operate portable, mobile, or from a relative's or friends location. Operation from your own QTH is very possible with stealth antennas and reasonable power, and HF low pass filters.
I cannot accept complaining from hams who enter into this situation and still want the total freedom enjoyed by hams who avoid these anthills.
 
Help stamp out unreasonable antenna prohibitions!  
by N4UM on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
If you don't like unreasonable antenna prohibitions by HOAs and developers please sign the FCC petition requesting them to void existing developer and HOA antenna restrictions and requiring developers and HOAs to make "reasonable accomodations" by clicking on the link listed below... over 2900 have signed already.

http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-communications-commission-void-antenna-restrictions-by-homeowner-s-associations-and-developers
 
RE: Help stamp out unreasonable antenna prohibitions!  
by W0MT on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
When a local government has zoning and building codes, they normally have a small army of full-time administrators, clerks, inspectors, etc. to enforce. That makes it pretty easy to have codes that permit an antenna that is so many feet above grade level, so many feet setback from the property line, etc. They can require engineering studies to ensure anything put up will stay up. And more to the point, they have individuals who understand how to read engineering studies and how to make measurement in the field to ensure compliance.

Now consider the people who run the HOA. Phil, who is the sole member of the Architectural Review Board, might sell cars down and the local dealership or he might be a plumbing contractor. He does not spend full-time acting as the Architectural Review Board and he probably hasn’t a clue how to tread an engineering study or how to measure compliance with a bunch of complex rules. So rather than have a bunch of rules for when an antenna is in compliance and when it is not, the simple solution is, “No Antennas.” And even if Phil has a clue, next year he resigns from the Architectural Review Board and he is replaced by someone else equally inept.

In a word, there is no way that any HOA could enforce something as complex as zoning and building codes so they take the easy way out and just say, "No."
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC7DX on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
k2new...dont be an AH
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC7DX on May 30, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Only a moron buys into a HOA and then whines.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
An HOA does not set or review building codes. They don't do it for the houses nor should they do it for antennas. For example, when my son built a deck on his house and again when he added a shed he had to get permission from his HOA - but that was just for the overall appearance. He still had to pull a county building permit, build it according to county codes, and have it inspected by the county inspector.

CC&R (HOA) antenna restrictions are **primarily** a matter of visual appearance. HOAs aren't (or shouldn't be) concerned with inspecting and improving the mechanical design and installation of antennas.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
W6EM: I disagree. I've seen a number of CC&Rs that have been rewritten to include language permitting small dish satellite antennas in accordance with the OTARD ruling.

Most HOAs don't have money to waste going to court either, especially if their lawyer tells them they are likely to loose because they are not providing FCC required reasonable accomodation.
 
Two incurable diseases  
by AI2IA on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
All unhappy hams that live in HOA bubbles suffer from two incurable diseases:
First, they must recognize that they brought the situation upon themselves by entering into their own HOA agreement. Now the laws of contracts prevail.
Second, they now live under big brother HOA to watch over them.
They have options in ham radio to evade restrictions and still participate usefully in ham radio, just not from their houses.
If you want government to intervene in your special case, then what is to stop government from negating or modifying other types of lawful contracts that you don't want modified?
Government intervention is not a good solution. It is a bad one. You, the individual, have the privilege and the duty to decide your own destiny without running to government.
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AA4PB on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Suppose your next door neighbor:
1) Has 10 junk cars in various states of repair parked on his lot.
2) Has two old campers parked on his front lawn.
3) Has weeds growing 4 feet tall.
4) Has paint peeling off the side of the house.

Don't complain - you are the one who didn't want a HOA looking over you. See, there are reasons to have a **reasonable** HOA.

Move? You can't because your appraised value has dropped below what you own on it and you don't have the cash on hand to make up the difference.

The last time you had someone interested in purchasing your house they couldn't wait to get out of there when the saw what they would be living next to.

It would be nice if it were really as simple as "don't buy a place with an HOA" for everyone - but its not.
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by KF7CG on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
It is all cable TV's fault! In the 60s and for a while into the 70's, fourty to fifty feet of rohn 20 with an aluminum fish skeleton on it was a status symbol. The home owner had one of the best TV setups and reception in the area.

Now???

KF7CG
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AE6RV on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Don't complain - you are the one who didn't want a HOA looking over you. See, there are reasons to have a **reasonable** HOA."

Doesn't your neighborhood have any zoning laws? An HOA is not a substitute for law and order, you know.
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AA4PB on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
More and more the local governments **are** using CC&Rs as a substitute for zoning laws. Its easy to get developers to agree to add CC&Rs because they don't have to live there and they need the zoning approval for the development. Homeowners are forced to agree to the CC&Rs in order to purchase the home. The local government doesn't have to write and approve laws that might get challenged in court. "After all, the homeowner voluntarily agreed to abide by the rules". If you don't like it, sue the HOA.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K3LUE on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
It's amazing that there is so much angst toward HOA and the rules they make (or claim they 'abide by') It seems to be the monthly rant, and should be, on this site and probably others. Then, along comes a chance to petition, to have someone step up for the ham and make changes and what was there?.......more angst against THAT!
I know the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' thing but an onlooker to this debate might actually deduce that the radio ham is not looking for a solution, but just an argument for argument's sake. Let's hope it hasn't come down to this.
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by KASSY on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"Suppose your next door neighbor:
1) Has 10 junk cars in various states of repair parked on his lot.
2) Has two old campers parked on his front lawn.
3) Has weeds growing 4 feet tall.
4) Has paint peeling off the side of the house."

Except for #4, all of those are zoning law violations in most residential areas. I had that neighbor, we contacted the zoning authorities and it was taken care of.

CC&Rs and HOAs are not required in order to enforce zoning laws.

- k
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K8AC on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Someone commented:
"As some have said, a few ruin it for the rest of us; in another house (no HOA) had a neighbor who was a ham that decided he could hang his 80m wire from our trees (without asking) and string a ULF wire clear across the back of our lot (again without asking). He also splattered signal all over the place to where it came through two of our speakers even when the system was turned off. I talked to him several times, but he refused to take any accountablity for the interference and told me his antennas weren't hurting anything and didn't know why I was upset."

It appears that ignorance of radio technology isn't just the province of non-ham homeowners. Certainly, there's no excuse for someone placing wires on the property of others - that's just common sense. But, you really need to think of just what is happening here - please explain in technical terms exactly what the offending ham is doing or "splattering" that would cause an audio device to rectify and make audible an RF signal. I applaud the guy for refusing to take any accountability for this problem - he isn't responsible - YOU ARE. Any ham who doesn't understand this in spades should be embarrassed to voice his ignorance in a public forum.

73, Floyd - K8AC
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K8AC on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Someone commented:
"As some have said, a few ruin it for the rest of us; in another house (no HOA) had a neighbor who was a ham that decided he could hang his 80m wire from our trees (without asking) and string a ULF wire clear across the back of our lot (again without asking). He also splattered signal all over the place to where it came through two of our speakers even when the system was turned off. I talked to him several times, but he refused to take any accountablity for the interference and told me his antennas weren't hurting anything and didn't know why I was upset."

It appears that ignorance of radio technology isn't just the province of non-ham homeowners. Certainly, there's no excuse for someone placing wires on the property of others - that's just common sense. But, you really need to think of just what is happening here - please explain in technical terms exactly what the offending ham is doing or "splattering" that would cause an audio device to rectify and make audible an RF signal. I applaud the guy for refusing to take any accountability for this problem - he isn't responsible - YOU ARE. Any ham who doesn't understand this in spades should be embarrassed to voice his ignorance in a public forum.

73, Floyd - K8AC
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W7CSD on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I always start by looking around the neighborhood...

If you see a few small antennas in a subdivision controlled by HOAs, then you might be able to sneak up something small. I started small at my QTH years ago after seeing a few other TV receiving antennas.

You know, if you water your antennas they will eventually grow; I started with a simple 1/4Wave 2M antenna, graduated to a Larsen BSK antenna and finally to a Diamond X-500.

If your neighbors get use to seeing a small antenna, they might not complain if it grows up a little.

Then again there are those who's life is so pothetic that they have nothing better to do than watch the actions of every one else. BTW, those are also the ones that will be the first to let their dog crap in front of your house and not theirs (would't want to have to pick up their own mess).

-Eric
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AI7AZ on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Someone said: "...they must recognize that they brought the situation upon themselves by entering into their own HOA agreement. Now the laws of contracts prevail."

I respectfully disagree. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago that argument would hold water, but not today. It's almost impossible to buy a home that isn't governed by CC&Rs. And virtually all CC&Rs prohibit antennas. Heck, our silly CC&Rs actually go so far as to prohibit all "transmitting devices", which is about as ridiculous as you can get. In order to meet that rule, everyone in the neighborhood would have to turn in their garage door openers, baby monitors, cell phones, and wireless security alarm systems.

Personally, I think that HOAs could serve a valuable purpose -- no one wants a pig farm going in next door. But the absurd level of over-control we're dealing with is destroying our ability to provide emergency communications.
 
RE: Lucky  
by KC2EIW on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I consider myself lucky to still live in a pocket of the America I was born in. These ever increasing and often unquestioned forms of social control go against the values I was taught and are the antithesis of the American spirit of individuality and self expression. Here where I live there no associations to hide behind and if a neighbor does not like what you are doing, they may make you an "offer you can't refuse". This creates a much more tolerant mode of living where common sense actually prevails, imagine that.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Here's one for Ray, AI2IA to ponder. (And, the rest who seem to be rooting for the HOA Nazis).

How many of you took up amateur radio 30 or more years ago as kids when there weren't CC&Rs on your parent's homes? Am I the only one?

I doubt that many parents would agree to move just because Dick or Jane wanted to become a ham and hang up a wire and the HOA said no. I doubt mine would have, so I wouldn't have been licensed and probably taken a different career path.

There's a tad of national interest at stake here, folks. A technical hobby that might reinforce interest and fascination in physical science and engineering in young people has a serious impediment nowadays that it didn't have more than 30 years ago.

Think about it.

 
No excuses accepted.  
by AI2IA on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
There is no coercion. No one bent your arm behind your back and forced your hand to sign on the dotted line. Life is a series of trade offs and sacrifices. You make the decisions. You find yourself with a HOA. How did you get there? You came to it. You signed on. You don't care that you can still operate in many ways, but instead you focus on that you cannot operate openly from your own home. No excuses whatsoever accepted.

Be honest with yourself. If you had the will, the strong determination to be free and independent, you would be able to operate from where you chose to live, be it mansion or hovel.

You cannot have it all. Either you enjoy the comforts and advantages of having a HOA house, or you enjoy the comforts and advantages of being free of restrictions. It is your choice alone. Choose wisely, but don't expect government or anyone else to try to force the issue so you can have it both ways. You have to accept the fact that you have to live by your own decision.
 
RE: Answer to the Question  
by KC2EIW on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Sure, it is so much easier to let the HOA do your dirty work, thinking and everything else for you. We have become a nation of idiots and spoiled children. I am ashamed of what I see here, a bunch of whiney kids that never grew up. As some Marine Drill SGT once said: GROW A PAIR.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K1ZJH on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Some HOAs go as far as banning ham radio from inside
the dwellings.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AD6KA on May 31, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Am I the only one who finds the use of the
name "Nazis" to describe HOA's offensive?
The word seems to invariably come up in these
HOA threads.

It' use trivializes what the real Nazi's did.
Tens of millions dead. Years of war, genocide,
murder, wanton destruction, rape and unspeakable
atrocities bear no comparison whatsoever to some
homeowner rules and committees one has issues with.

73, Ken AD6KA

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K3LUE on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Am I the only one who finds the use of the
name "Nazis" to describe HOA's offensive?
The word seems to invariably come up in these
HOA threads."

I always see this type of rhetoric as some knee-jerk verbiage that tries, and usually unsuccessfully, to raise the ire of all that read it. Actually, what these folks don't understand is that the more this term is used, the less "shock value" it has. We become desensitized by it while they look for their next "buzz word." You read about "nazi" this or "commie" that and the list goes on. It really does nothing to help the discussion except to help someone get something off their chest so the house cat can have a more comfortable day. ;-)
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K3LUE on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Some HOAs go as far as banning ham radio from inside
the dwellings."

Some HOA bylaws/covenants mention "no radio frequency transmissions from the property." This would bring up an interesting lawsuit concerning tvs, cell phones, cordless phones, microwaves, etc. etc. etc.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K0RGR on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
As others have previously stated, CC+R's really came into existence with the rise of cable television. In order to get CATV service in their developments, developers had to agree to put covenants in place, outlawing television antennas. It became a standard practice.

Local government have, indeed, found CC+R's to be a way to enact unpopular laws, without any form of democracy or fear of lawsuits.

I think there is a much bigger question here than just ham antennas. I think HOA's are a form of government and should be subject to the same laws as governments. What is the difference between an HOA in a large complex and the town council in a small city?

There have been efforts on the part of some HOA organizations to allow for ham radio, and those should be recognized and applauded. Meanwhile, let's see what FCC comes up with.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
With all this about CC&Rs one would think that they were new or at least the more restrictive forms were.

Nope! The restrictions are just different. Until my job necesitated a move recently I owned a home built in a 1940-1950 era development. 20 pages of restrictions about, set backs, driveways, exterior and roofing materials, allowed auxilliary buildings, minimum house square footage and cost and other additions to the zoning for the area, but not one mention of exterior antennas.

So CC&Rs aren't new, the tower restrictions started from the perfect storm of cable tv and undeground utilities, and grew from there.

Developments now exist in (semi) rural areas that have minimum five acre lot size, above ground utilities, graveled driveways, and still don't permit antennas. Strange!

Another observation that goes with the strange, the quality of the builder in the lower to medium price homes arena is proportional to the number and severity of deed restrictions. In other words, if there are few deed restrictions you must be very careful to inspect the quality of the building. It seems as if the builder/developer has money to "afford" or pride to require top notch building techniques they have the pride and money to hire real estate lawyers to draft up reams of restrictions. Even including one that, said that if you have to replace your mailbox, it must be of the same make and model as what was originally supplied. This in an area that used curbside mailboxes.

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AB4D on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
CC&Rs and HOAs exist, because they help protect the neighborhood while the builder and developer sell homes. CC&R are placed on each lot at the subdivision stage. They legally affix the rules to each lot, to prevent folks from doing adverse things to their property before the developer and builder can get all the homes sold. Imagine being a developer, selling the first home in the place, and the family puts in a 100 foot tower, line up 60 plastic pink flamingos around the old broken down pick up in the front yard, and paint the house hot pink with orange trim.

Now imagine trying to sell the rest of your lots and get top dollar with that new eyesore. Good luck. CC&Rs exist so people will keep their bad habits, poor taste, and mannerisms in check. As a lot of folks have said before. If you don't like HOAs and CC&Rs, don't live there. Seems like we are beating a dead horse here.

73
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC2EIW on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
So apparently some folks are willing to let an arbitrary board make decisions on what is good taste, manners and habits. That is a very dangerous slope to approach, what's next? Manner of dress, speaking or general appearance? I guess some people are so lacking in character that they will defer and essentially abdicate social responsibility to the "board".

It appears that the financial interests of the builders are more important than the people who live there and paid for their properties. That's really sad.
 
RE: No excuses accepted.  
by W6EM on June 1, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry if my use of the term "Nazi" to describe a totalitarian form of local rule offended the local choir of Libertarians. Perhaps coercive, invasive, intrusive, busy-body, nosey, or repugnant might have been better adjectives. HOA troopers certainly are not murderers that I know of. Then again, Facist is a close parallel as well. I'll try to remember to use that the next time.

Beyond what is written, it is how they act. How they invade one's privacy, occasionally. Something we're supposed to have rights to. While they won't knock down your door, they think nothing of entering your back yard without permission; or assessing you a penalty if you run your sprinklers on the wrong day. Or, park a vehicle with a sign on the door in your driveway (no exemption for LEOs). Or, don't plant the right colored flowers in the flower beds. (I left that all behind when I left Florida)

And yes, some do go further than total antenna bans and forbid transmissions within their borders. I LMAO when I think of how ridiculous that clause is in light of the numerous RF appliances everyone uses these days.

Rest assured. Congress is interested in assuring the legacy of amateur radio and I'd suggest any doubters read the House Committee Report on the Armed Forces 2013 Appropriations Bill (p.222). Or, simply surf to the ARRL's homepage and click on the story. They want MARS to be utilized to a greater degree in support of government communications. Easily shown how MARS will erode, over time, as HOA Facists diminish the available pool of those able to become MARS members. The FCC has all it needs to prepare an effective report to Congress. And, just like it did to pre-empt draconian, anti-competitive antenna bans, Congress already has found sufficient basis in our national security to expand the preemption to antenna bans to include reasonable amateur antennas. No, an HF Yagi or LPD at 70 feet isn't a reasonable antenna on an 80' X 100' lot. Just like a larger than 3 foot diameter satellite dish isn't reasonable.

73.







 
RE: No excuses accepted.  
by KT0DD on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The example of 10 junk cars and old washers, dryers and tires all over the yard doesn't justify an HOA. Most all cities/counties etc. have ordinances already in place to prevent and remedy these nuisances. Get them to enforce their ordinances.

If I'm the one making the house payment, paying the property taxes etc. then no one should have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do on my own property if it's within the law. However, if an HOA wishes to take over my obligations to these debts, then I have no room to talk.
 
RE: No excuses accepted.  
by W0MT on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"If I'm the one making the house payment, paying the property taxes etc. then no one should have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do on my own property if it's within the law.

Sure sounds simple doesn't it? If it were only so. Ever hear of an easement? You may have one or more on your property for power lines (both underground and overhead), gas, sewer, etc. You may have an easement to allow access to adjoining property. An easement holder has certain rights to tell you what you can and can't do on your own property.

If you lease your property to another, the leaseholder has rights to tell you what you can and can't do on your own property.

You can enter into a contract to allow someone else to do things like put am advertizing sign on your property. That too would limit your rights to do as you wish on your own property.

All of these along with CC&Rs are a form of a contract where you grant rights that you otherwise might have to another. And yes, they can tell you what you can and cannot do on your own property.
 
RE: No excuses accepted.  
by KT0DD on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Of course I am aware of the above situations, and before buying property, these are items I would have thoroughly researched by the realtor and myself before signing. Of course some info is not necessarily public information, and therein lies the rub.

As I said, it "should" be that way. I know it isn't.

I was lucky in my last situation, as the HOA said they didn't care about ham antennas. That was until a new president of the board was elected. She went house to house just "looking around" so she said. When she got to me, she asked what in the world was all over my roof? I told her and she got somewhat of a disgusted look on her face, but said nothing. I expected a challenge, but I lost the house before anything came of it.

If an HOA says you CAN have antennas, be sure to get it in writing.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N6AJR on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Belive it or not, most HOA's are set up by the developer, or builders, as a part of the contract you have in the title paperwork on buying a house. Some do it intentionally like in gated community and others do it just because tyhats what developers do. most of the time CC&R's are made "just because"

Funny isin't it.
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by K1CJS on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
....It's almost impossible to buy a home that isn't governed by CC&Rs. And virtually all CC&Rs prohibit antennas. Heck, our silly CC&Rs actually go so far as to prohibit all "transmitting devices"....

No, it isn't impossible. You're not looking far enough or at enough older homes. Granted, if you want a brand new home or one that isn't old, or if you're unwilling to do a little commuting to get to work, you're not going to find much. If you're a little more relaxed in looking and look far enough afield, you certainly will find a home where you can have your hobby antennas.

The one problem with most of the people who say that "there isn't anything that doesn't have covenants or restrictions against ham antennas" is that they want their cake and want to eat it too. Seek and you WILL find...
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AA4PB on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Yup, as long as your ham radio hobby is more important to you than anything else in your life - like driving 75 miles each way to work and not having a little family time, or forcing your kids to ride on a school bus two hours a day - you can find a home with no CC&Rs.

What's that the ARRL says about the amateur being balanced?

Lets face it - not everybody can afford to move out into the country on 10 acres so they can have an antenna.

The issue isn't having a stack of monobanders on a 100 foot tower. The issue is having a simple wire dipole on ***your own*** property in an area that is suitable for you and your family to live. There are darn few situtations where a simple wire dipole or a vertical in the back yard wouldn't be a "reasonable accomodation".
 
WHY WOULD YOU BUY  
by WB9QEL on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Why would you buy a home in these restricted locations in the first place?
 
RE: Two incurable diseases  
by AI7AZ on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"No, it isn't impossible."

I'll grant you that it isn't "impossible". But all of those homes are in much older neighborhoods or far outside of town. To live in a relatively modern home in or near a populated place (like most of us have to), you've got to go underground with your hobby.

That being said, the real issue at hand has to do with the reason why the FCC grants us our licenses to begin with -- we don't have our operating privileges simply because the government thinks it's a cute hobby. At the end of the day, we're all here to keep communications going when trouble strikes. Our casual operating is practice for the day when we're needed.

The simple truth is that the expansion of HOAs and CC&Rs is trashing the Amateur Radio Service to the point that we may not be able to fulfill our mission when needed. And if the only hams who could operate are those who live in unrestricted areas, we'd be in mighty sorry shape.

Finally, I'd like to point out that no one is really expecting to put up a tower on a suburban lot. Towers and beams are nice, but they AREN'T necessary for reliable communications. I can operate just fine with a low-profile multiband dipole over the back of my roof, or a ground-mounted vertical.

Good luck to all of us on this issue.

Steve, AI7AZ
Vail, AZ

 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K6CRC on June 2, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
OK, Ill bite.

I was the Pres of a HOA, and on the board of two others before I bought a house.

The CC&Rs are to keep the place looking like it did when the owners bought it. There is a reason people WANTED the CC&Rs. No broken down Chevys in the front yard, no bright purple roofs, no dead lawns with drunks laying on them

Many people bought into the complexes and never bothered to read the documents they signed. The show up at the next HOA meeting in a huff because they cannot keep there Wolfhound on the balcony, their collection of Corvairs in the parking lot or paint the front door pink.

That said, I found the boards to be quite accommodating when a reasonable request was made. We allowed small cats, because a number of people requested the change. We turned one spot into a car wash area, etc. Remember, this is a co-op situation.

Now, if a ham had of asked to put up a near invisible wire out the balcony, and gave a pitch about the advantages of having emergency communications, I think no one would have objected.

But, if someone with a belly hanging out of his dirty t-shirt and two HTs on his belt started yelling about his 'rights', I would suspect the answer would be NO.

Two suggestions-
Read the papers before you sign the mortgage docs
Consider how to present in a manner that will get a yes, rather than one which will guarantee a no.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K9MHZ on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
>>>by N6AJR on June 2, 2012 Belive it or not, most HOA's are set up by the developer, or builders, as a part of the contract you have in the title paperwork on buying a house. Some do it intentionally like in gated community and others do it just because tyhats what developers do. most of the time CC&R's are made "just because" Funny isin't it.<<<<


That's exactly how it happens....around here, at least. Developers want builders to buy the lots, and the builders want to sell the homes. At the end of it all, the covenants lists are handed to the new HOA once everything is in, and the HOA takes them as gospel since it's officious and legal-speak reading.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I was the Pres of a HOA, and on the board of two others before I bought a house."

I was VP of a condo association board, and member of our single-dwelling subdivision board.

"The CC&Rs are to keep the place looking like it did when the owners bought it. There is a reason people WANTED the CC&Rs. No broken down Chevys in the front yard, no bright purple roofs, no dead lawns with drunks laying on them"

Like said above, municipalities have ordinances with respect to nuisances. However, in a condo building with common areas everywhere, it makes sense to have some restrictions.


"Many people bought into the complexes and never bothered to read the documents they signed. The show up at the next HOA meeting in a huff because they cannot keep there Wolfhound on the balcony, their collection of Corvairs in the parking lot or paint the front door pink."

Many times, even though supposedly required to by law, CC&Rs aren't provided to buyers ahead of closing of escrow. When that happens, the seller and agents should be required to eat or reverse the sale. Also, there's usually a Trojan Horse to discourage any antennas. It's called "nothing permitted unless ARC guidelines exist." Well, they don't as long as the developer controls the HOA and won't until after he turns it over to the homeowners. That means, violations of the OTARD rule in that TV or satellite dishes are prohibited since no ARC guidelines.

Our developer was a real snake in the grass. He set up a master contract with the HOA and cable TV company and required us all to pay for cable service as part of annual assessments. If not an outright violation of OTARD, it forces cable as a means to get programming as opposed to over the air TV or satellite dish choices. That wasn't spelled out in restrictions. We finally moved away, thank God.

"That said, I found the boards to be quite accommodating when a reasonable request was made. We allowed small cats, because a number of people requested the change. We turned one spot into a car wash area, etc. Remember, this is a co-op situation."

Not my experience at all. "HOA Troopers" and the condo manager were constantly looking for anything not exactly in compliance with restrictions. Invasion of privacy, frankly, in the case of the subdivision situation. I was on its ARC, too, and after 3 years of living there, got them to allow wire antennas behind houses, but couldn't be visible from the front. Like a G5RV along the perimeter fence. Almost worthless.

"Now, if a ham had of asked to put up a near invisible wire out the balcony, and gave a pitch about the advantages of having emergency communications, I think no one would have objected."

A condo example, and a good comparative to a satellite dish. The OTARD Rule already mandates no restricions on satellite or over the air TV antennas on private use areas in condos, such as balconies. Permission only need be sought for common area installations like roofs, grounds, etc. Should be the same way for amateur antennas in condo private use areas, but it isn't. Hopefully Congress will help the FCC decide upon what is truly a "reasonable accommodation," and amateur radio can be as it was before the developer-inspired CC&Rs began going too far.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC5UP on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I worked Census in 2009 and 2010. Walked some very classy neighborhoods in that capacity and was well rewarded by the taxpayers for my efforts.

Thanks to all for your part of my paychecks.

Despite being a ham and despite understanding the concept of radiation angle vs antenna height, there are neighborhoods in my part of the world where almost any antenna would be an eyesore. Completely inappropriate, and I can think of at least one situation where an OM put up a tower & beam that give us all a bad reputation.

Pull into the subdivision and it's the first house on the T in the road, perfectly centered in your windshield so you can't avoid seeing it. 35' tower and Tribander on a small city lot. Piss-poor idea that looks like H - E double hockey sticks and is right up there with twin junk Camaro's on the front lawn in terms of Redneck curb appeal.

If we all have the "right" to a tower, do we also have the "right" to raise poultry?

At least God made the chicken........... Can't say the same about Rohn 25.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"At least God made the chicken........... Can't say the same about Rohn 25."

According to the insurance companies, God has taken a few of them out :-)
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N1VY on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I hope she sings soon.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N1VY on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Solution one for HOA antenna restrictions:

Build a hydraulicly erected folding tower that will fit inside your pickup bed, along with a folding beam.

This has been done before.

You might do the same thing with a trailer if you only have an automobile.

This has been accomplised by people in the past.

Solution two: Buy a used van, and make your station completely portable with the folding tower and antenna mounted on top, and use the van as your shack.

Solution three:

Drop your vanity driven dreams of living in an exclusive location, and live like the rest of us.

"We don't need no steenking HOA!" :>)

I live in a former Potato plantation greathouse in a rural area.

We have 12 acres of of open property.

There are no antenna restrictions in my community.

My HOA is my wife.

"I will not have those horrid antennas on our property!"

Love does terrible things to a man!

The house measures 57' by 40'.

I have dipoles folded in the attic for 80 through 10 meters, and have made voice contacts all over the world.

I've done this with a barefoot FT857D.

There's also room for an eleven element beam and rotator for two meters in the attic.

It does everything that I want it to do.

I suggest for those of you who want the prestige of living in an HOA to go to your attics and be creative.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I guess I'll say it. Multi-millionaires don't relate well to the common man, assuming you'd have to be one with such a dimension under roof.

A huge home with an equally huge, old design attic sans the metal objects in today's homes to absorb and reflect RF is certainly unique.

Glad the space under the gables allow you to erect all the antennas you wish.

Besides concern over high RF voltages in proximity to combustible, otherwise tinder-dry old materials, shouldn't be of too much other worry. If you have good homeowner insurance in case of fire.

Oh, if they do "everything you want them to," then please tell us how they allow you to satsfactorily operate with a wet roof over them? And, since I assume you reside in "1-land," same question with a load of snow on top? Unlike rain in 1-land, that white stuff could hang around for a few months, right?

Oh, I guess you'll say you're too busy doing other things in the Winter like snow-shoeing it out to get the mail and ham radio for you is strictly a Spring and Summer hobby.

73.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by N1VY on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Absolutly right!
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
There have been HOAs and CC&Rs around for quite a whille, how come the 30+ year old ones are short on antenna restrictions?

How come most of the really expensive property is shourt on both?

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K6CRC on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
""Hopefully Congress will help the FCC decide upon what is truly a "reasonable accommodation," and amateur radio can be as it was before the developer-inspired CC&Rs began going too far.""

OK, so the FCC allows 'reasonable accommodations'.

Then, it is the duty of the HOA board or the courts to define 'reasonable'.

It is clear that the HOA and many of the hams posting here would not be close on the definition of 'reasonable'. A near invisible wire or a StepperIR on a tower? Guess which would be considered most 'reasonable' by non-Hams.

And, we are back to the beginning of THIS thread.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Then, it is the duty of the HOA board or the courts to define 'reasonable'. "

Not a lawyer; But my bet is that once the government puts a hole in a contract, the court has to define the size and shape of the hole if the two parties of the contract can't come together on an agreement.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on June 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Reasonable accommodation, by the ARRL-inspired, FCC words of PRB-1 is basically so much mumbo-jumo as implied. And, makes modest bucks for ham attorneys trying to get large towers and Step-IRs and the like through planning commissions.

The only thing that will solve the HOA mess is to define, dimensionally, what is reasonable: A wire or a basic vertical. And, with possibly some placement guidelines.

Placing anything else on a 75X100 lot isn't reasonable.

Like the OTARD rule, in that is defined the maximum dimension for satellite dishes. Although, it didn't for broadcast TV antennas.

The next problem is simplified enforcement. The HOAs need to be crammed down as they are under OTARD.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by VE3LNY on June 4, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Its not just hams who have a problem....

http://consumerist.com/2012/06/elderly-woman-faces-eviction-from-apartment-for-american-flags-on-balcony.html
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Secondary Question: If Ham Antennas are so "expletive deleted" unsightly, how most of the CC7Rs of the 50s, 60s, and some of the 70 silent or nearly silent on the issue?

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC5CQD on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"That being said, the real issue at hand has to do with the reason why the FCC grants us our licenses to begin with -- we don't have our operating privileges simply because the government thinks it's a cute hobby. At the end of the day, we're all here to keep communications going when trouble strikes. Our casual operating is practice for the day when we're needed."

Well...if the above were REALLY true...this discussion wouldn't even exist because then the government would step in and tell these communities "You will not restrict ham radio operators in any way. We license them for national emergency communications and need them operational at all times." The government isn't doing that.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AI7AZ on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Well...if the above were REALLY true...this discussion wouldn't even exist because then the government would step in and tell these communities "You will not restrict ham radio operators in any way. We license them for national emergency communications and need them operational at all times." The government isn't doing that."

I agree that the government has been doing a sloppy job of defending the Amateur Radio service, but that doesn't change the reason why we exist. The recent interest by Congress in the state of Amateur Radio as it relates to EMCOMM is particularly heartening -- maybe someone with some cojones is finally taking notice. Historically, the FCC has been unwilling to defend Amateur Radio against overbearing CC&Rs, maybe Congress will step in. But I wouldn't hold my breath. When all is said and done, those of us who live in CC&R controlled homes (and that's MOST of us these days) may have to continue to operate underground.

Is it possible that my HOA will react positively to an antenna request? Maybe. But with the current state of affairs, if I make myself known as a ham in the community I could be bludgeoned by our HOA and taken off the air entirely. This is why many of us (including yours truly) would be quite satisfied with a clause that requires HOAs to at least listen to us and negotiate a solution.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC5CQD on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I agree that the government has been doing a sloppy job of defending the Amateur Radio service, but that doesn't change the reason why we exist. The recent interest by Congress in the state of Amateur Radio as it relates to EMCOMM is particularly heartening -- maybe someone with some cojones is finally taking notice. Historically, the FCC has been unwilling to defend Amateur Radio against overbearing CC&Rs, maybe Congress will step in. But I wouldn't hold my breath. When all is said and done, those of us who live in CC&R controlled homes (and that's MOST of us these days) may have to continue to operate underground.

Is it possible that my HOA will react positively to an antenna request? Maybe. But with the current state of affairs, if I make myself known as a ham in the community I could be bludgeoned by our HOA and taken off the air entirely. This is why many of us (including yours truly) would be quite satisfied with a clause that requires HOAs to at least listen to us and negotiate a solution."

I agree with you whole-heartedly, brother. I for one have just started to feel that over about the past ten years the government no longer sees us "hams" as relevant. In fact, they seem to go out of their way to treat us as irrelevant every chance they get! I sometimes think that maybe they keep the ham radio service active just out of nostalgia. An "FCC tradition" so to speak and once those feelings of nostalgia wear off or go away....the whole damned service will be eliminated and the bands sold off to the highest bidder. If you look at all of the efforts over the past twenty years to "keep us alive", they've been spearheaded by the ARRL and the ham community at large. Not the FCC. Just look at the fact that there is little to absolutely zero policing and enforcement on the bands any more. They seem to have really lost interest in the service and view us as more of a nuisance than they do an asset.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"In fact, they seem to go out of their way to treat us as irrelevant every chance they get!"

I can't quite agree with this. It hasn't been all that long ago that the FCC started treating Amateur Radio as a Licensed Service, rather than a red-headed step-child who is barely tolerated and blamed for anything that goes wrong. Personally, I think we have it pretty good these days.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC5UP on June 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
KF7CG asked:

"Secondary Question: If Ham Antennas are so "expletive deleted" unsightly, how most of the CC7Rs of the 50s, 60s, and some of the 70 silent or nearly silent on the issue?"

Might have something to do with the lack of Cable TV penetration back in the day and the ubiquitous TV antenna. To argue that a TV antenna is OK but a Ham antenna is not is to imply that size matters and most guys want to believe it doesn't.

;-)
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 6, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Did you ever see the "super-fringe" TV antennas that sprout on many houses. They were at least as big as a 9 element six meter beam and taller too!

A TA-33JR was just at the upper limit of the "normal" TV rotor.

Super Fringe 12 feet by 12 feet 2 feet in depth;
TA-33 14 feet by 28 feet by 6 inches in depth with much more open area.

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on June 6, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Did you ever see the "super-fringe" TV antennas that sprout on many houses. They were at least as big as a 9 element six meter beam and taller too!"

The OTARD Rule as its now written doesn't limit the size of over-the-air TV antennas. And, that's very important when talking size. It only limits satellite dishes to 1M in diameter or smaller.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AA4PB on June 7, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The OTARD rule states that the antenna must be designed for local reception only. One of the FAQs on the FCC site states that a homeowner wants to intall a large antenna in order to receive distanct TV stations. The answer was no, the rule only applies to local reception. The HOA can limit the antenna size and placement to the minimum required to receive local signals.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K3LUE on June 7, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
At the beginning of this discussion, I read a lot of "keep the government out of this. They have their noses in everything anyway." Ya, that's right. Has something to do with all the wars for.....a country where we had a government to help us to our bidding. Now, the last few responses seem to be seeing the light with statements generally saying, "the government should step in and protect the amateur." Finally, I think we're seeing the light.....we're licensed by the government (rightly) and regulated by the government (rightly) at no cost to us by tariffs for our licenses, (thankfully) and this same government should step up on our behalf.
There seem to be fringe fanatics like the t-partiers and their ilk that would like to see less or practically no government (unless of course, it's in their direct best interest) but generally, it appears that most are in favor of the government doing its job....and in this case, that job might be stepping up to help the ham who has helped this country in more instances than anyone could count.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KB4MDZ on June 8, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Granted, I'm coming into this late; but that realtor needed to be told, very impolitely but without 'cuss words' to shut his blankety-blank mouth & get off your property.

Part of his complaint about 'dropping property values' was that as he likely farmed the neighborhood for sales, his commission would decrease. So it was in his financial interest to harrass you. However, he would never have had any proof, just his own 'feelings' that property values would drop.

In God we trust, all others bring data. Hard data.

My neighborhood had some CCR's, when they were set to expire the most active person rewriting them was also a realtor who did just that - 'farmed' the neighborhood for sales. Her attempt went from one page, single space to almost 10, and included things like A)'cannot cut any trees without permission' - so cutting month-old sprouts from acorns would have been technically forbidden. B) No commercial lettered vehicles parked anywhere on the property so that it could be seen from the street, unless you erected a screen. Which would have put me in violation immediately because 1) I live on a corner and even tho the driveway is in back, 2) I would have had to spend my $$ to build said screen. Many more examples too numerous to mention, but the effort went down in flames and the original CCR's expired. Oh, happy day. Then the realtor moved. Oh happier day, good riddance you busy-body.


 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- Phoney Citation  
by W6EM on June 9, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB:"The OTARD rule states that the antenna must be designed for local reception only. One of the FAQs on the FCC site states that a homeowner wants to intall a large antenna in order to receive distanct TV stations. The answer was no, the rule only applies to local reception. The HOA can limit the antenna size and placement to the minimum required to receive local signals."

The only "local" codified at 47CFR1.4000, et. seq., is local government.

Nothing about restricting reception to local sources. Mast height as well cannot be restricted below what is needed for a satisfactory signal. So, with a smaller, lower gain antenna, then it takes a taller mast to receive a satisfactory signal.

Another interesting bit about OTARD is that Petition decisions are only kept recorded for a couple of years so they can't be cited as references in future pleadings outside that time frame.

Then again, how many people want to spend many thousands on an attorney just to have an over the air TV antenna? A tad easier a process than PRB-1, though.


 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- FAQ "Definition"  
by W6EM on June 10, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Also, since the FCC hasn't defined what local is in 1.4000, how can they arbitrarily say in their FAQs only "local" reception? Is local less than 10 miles from the TV transmitter? Or, is it less than 20, 30, 50, or 75 miles? Again, someone's opinion, not codified in the rule. And, all of its prior Petition decisions are trashed after a couple of years so they can't be cited.

Local might be 10 miles in one instance and 50 in another.

Are they going to pay for a half dozen different OTA TV antennas so that the person can try all six and select the smallest one that produces a satisfactory signal at roof or mast top? Nothing said about that little, but significant detail. Masts can be easily adjusted up or down, but "antenna shopping" is a whole different matter.

Maybe the FCC needs to send out its closest Enforcement Bureau agent with his Field Strength Meter to determine the antenna size or gain needed at the desired location.

Sorry about the use of "phoney," but it was aimed at the FCC, not at AA4PB.

73.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KB7AIL on June 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
I think those who object to CC&Rs and knew about them before they moved in probably ought to be somewhere else...

That said, have any clubs considered a remote station? There are a number of remote access setups which work well. A club could set up as an elaborate station as they choose with towers and beams and amplifiers and club members who don't/can't have a station at home could use it. Simple stations with wire antennas could be set up also. There would have to be a lot of cooperation in its use but could be an answer.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
But where within easy maintenance range would one put the club station?

5 acre parcels in the contryside that have no cable, no dsl and the like have CC&Rs that say no antennas now.

Does the club get an old factory and locate the station there? Security?

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WA2NTW on June 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Thank you for doing what should have been done all along. Remove the problem. If more people realized that most hams are not the enemy, rather a good source for information and assistance, most of the problems would go away. One of the things I will be looking at in any HOA before I buy are the restrictions. I would love a three acre lot again but there are not many of them in Southern FL.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AI7AZ on June 11, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"I think those who object to CC&Rs and knew about them before they moved in probably ought to be somewhere else..."

Most of us don't choose to live in a community governed by CC&Rs. HOAs have greatly expanded and in many areas of the country it's just about impossible to find a home not governed by a HOA, unless you can live in an older home (read: Home Depot Special) or way out in the country.

There is actually very little evidence that HOAs help preserve property values (in fact, the exact opposite is sometimes the case). HOAs are undemocratic organizations that are often rife with misconduct and useless, onerous regulation of homeowners. In the case of ham radio, HOAs are destroying a valuable national resource and a necessary EMCOMM service.
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KW4CQ on June 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Warning: Always demand to review a copy of the CC&R document PRIOR to going to settlement when purchasing a home in a HOA community. Most realtors and settlement attorneys will purposely hold back the document untill settlement takes place in the attorneys office and then it is too late to back out if you don't like what you have discovered at the last minute. Among other pains you may loose the good faith deposit you made when signing the sales agreement. The CC&R document (sometimes called the Document of Restrictive Covenants) is most often provided at settlement at a cost to you of around $50 to $100. Many HOA communities provide a current copy on their web site which is sometimes available to the public and in other cases you will need a password to access the HOA documents. If you know someone in your community of interest contact them and see if they will help you get access to the CC&R document or perhaps loan you their copy for review. Look in particular for antenna exclusions and in the absence of specific reference to "antenna" check to see if there is any language that says, "any outside structure requires the approvial of the HOA board of review". Most county legal documents refer to antennas as structures.

Good luck and 73,
Bob KW4CQ

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on June 12, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Also beware the CC&R document that gives the HOA the power to set additional restrictions on permitted actions by the Board of the HOA.

Some CC&Rs that mandate HOAs, read "and other restrictions as found necessary or desirable by the HOA Board." It is the open ended nature of rule by an HOA that can be devastating. You can be clear to put up a resonable antenna when you sign the documents, but lose that clearance between when you sign and you are in a position to install the antenna.

Remember HOA rules are binding and subject to change with the mood of the HOA.

Therefore, you shouldn't buy in any area with an HOA.

KF7CG
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by WA3YAY on June 14, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Had to add my 2 cents. I got a copy of an HOA from a gated community north of Tampa. It states that a wire antenna not in excess of 20' long is allowed. And that a vertical antenna in the form of a functioning flagpole no higher than 23 feet with radials of no longer than, get this, 23 INCHES long is also allowed.

Me thinks they consulted someone who knew something about Ham Radio to create permissions that could not reasonably be useful to a Ham. A SWL maybe, or a 6 meter op perhaps.

So the only reason for this? No Ham Radio. Specifically.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W6EM on June 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Also beware the CC&R document that gives the HOA the power to set additional restrictions on permitted actions by the Board of the HOA."

Most CC&Rs include a committee called an Architectural Review Committee. They can and do write all sorts of variations on the CC&Rs, so today's permission is tomorrow's prohibition. Depends which way the breeze is blowing. Draconisn.

 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC2EIW on June 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The real reason and answer to the original post is that "we" as a collective are constantly giving up credible responsibility over our most cherished American values. This simple generalization does not sit well because everyone knows and feels that this is reality. Truth hurts, enjoy your Stalinistic living situation and do not complain, after all, you paid to be told what to do. I feel sorry for the poor saps that do not know know any better but what excuse do you have as a ham? What was once the most innovative body in our great land has been neutered and that really hurts. Research Industry Canada's take on hams to see your future. I have no EMCOMM agenda here but that is fading fast too. I wish my ham brothers the best of luck of course but please stand up for yourselves in the most minimal way, do not give in to senseless BS and re-establish the values generations fought for.

73 and best wishes to all hams.

K2EIW
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AE6RV on June 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Dennis, it's hard to believe that the government will continue to allow these quasi-government entities to take over their cities.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC2EIW on June 15, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
AE8RV, with the citizen's consent it's "giving away the store" much easier for small city government to defer responsibility and defer liability to a non-sensical association to determine exactly what we elected them to do. Unfortunately most people are blind to this and just follow a path of least resistance because there is no impetus to do otherwise because of pure selfishness. We really need to take value within ourselves and take responsibility back, anything otherwise is very childlike and beneath us.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KC5CQD on June 19, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"There seem to be fringe fanatics like the t-partiers and their ilk"

Hey, K3LUE....WTF? No one was talking politics here. I'm a "Tea Party" member and I'm not a fringe fanatic. Why bring politics and name calling into this thread? Didn't YOUR party call for a "new civility" after Giffords was shot in AZ a couple of years ago? I'm seeing that the "new civility" is basically....you conservatives shut up and let us liberals say what we want.

Unreal. And completely uncalled for.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AI7AZ on June 19, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"Most CC&Rs include a committee called an Architectural Review Committee. They can and do write all sorts of variations on the CC&Rs, so today's permission is tomorrow's prohibition."

Having served on HOAs before (including chairman of a Covenants Committee), I can say from first-hand experience that, generally speaking, most HOAs are populated with individuals that lack the common sense that's required to help manage a community. When I was in the position of Chairman, I fought tooth and nail to find any way possible to keep the egomaniacs and dimwits from finding their way to our Committee. The ROOT of the problem we're dealing with isn't so much the existence of HOAs but the way in which they're run. Yep, anyone can be on their HOA -- no experience required -- and they can participate in running their entire community into the ground. This is why we need the FCC to step in when it comes to ham radio. The HOAs can't be trusted to make the right decision because the people running them are generally unqualified.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF6VB on June 22, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Update: Today I had a conversation with a fellow who owns a large HOA management company. His company manages 200 HOAs. He told me that the county simply requires private roads from any multi-house development. No private roads, no permit. Private roads = HOA.

- Jerry Kaidor, KF6VB

 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by K5KNE on July 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Bob, AF2Q

You sure got some results with your questions about HOAs. I'll bet you can figure out some covert antenna that nobody can even tell that you are hamming.

I have talked to people using a "night antenna" that was just a telescoping fiberglass pole - (about like a long fishing rod) with a wire wrapped around it. They only raised it up at night. With a good ground, little MFJ antenna tuner and about 30'of wire on a pole (painted black) - nobody will ever know.

Search for "stealth antennas" and see if you don't get some good ideas. 73



Walter
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by W3HI on July 3, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
RE: Our neighborhood is very conservative... everyone wants uncluttered skies, see what THEY want to see, do what THEY want and preserve THEIR property values. Not much interest in what you want to do or need (to get a decent signal out) if it clutters THEIR sky.

Conservatives? I don't think so -- sounds like progressives to me. . .
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by NJ2X on July 4, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, Paris, 27 May 1788
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KO3D on July 5, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The simple answer to HOAs and restrictive covenants is don't buy a house with one. If you need to say "XYL made me do it" or "I liked the school district" etc., then you made your decision not to have ham radio antennas because you valued something else more. You can waive your rights under a private contract unless the other party is asking you to do something illegal. So if you entered into a private contract which said no antennas, you are out of luck and should move or live with no outside antennas. Feel free to whine now...
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on July 6, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
"The simple answer to HOAs and restrictive covenants is don't buy a house with one. If you need to say "XYL made me do it" or "I liked the school district" etc., then you made your decision not to have ham radio antennas because you valued something else more. You can waive your rights under a private contract unless the other party is asking you to do something illegal. So if you entered into a private contract which said no antennas, you are out of luck and should move or live with no outside antennas. Feel free to whine now... "

That is well and good but contracts are considered voided if the were entered to under DURESS. The lack of safe, livable, and affordable housing, within a reasonable commute of employment should most probably be considered duress; at least for Amateur Radio Operators.

KF7CG
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC7DX on July 7, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
Dont move into a HOA if you can not follow their rules. All HOA give rules and regs before and after you move in..If your Realtor didnt give you them..sue the Realtor.
I get tired of all the complaining about HOA's...MOVE or use remotes. People moved into HOA's so they wouldnt have to look at antennas and for peace and quiet.
Dont use the Ham emergency crap either...your not needed. There are thousands and thousands of mobile , hand helds and towers where allowedto handle ALL emergencies.
 
RE: HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by KF7CG on July 7, 2012 Mail this to a friend!
The problem with HOA rules is that they are not constant! Other than rules written into the deed as a CC&R. If the ruling junta of the HOA doesn't like what you are doing they will change the rules.

Then don't buy into an HOA, easier said than done if you are raising a family or working for a living.

HOAs are a constant of most housing development and construction since the 1980s.

I was lucky enough to purchase in the county from and independed builder so escaped the antenna restrictions in the deed or having an HOA. Neighbors across the way still in the county go the antenna deed restrictions from their developer and the other homes for sale other than the ones that need rebuilding tend to have antenna restrictions.

SO I know it can be done here in Tennessee, with difficulty. Live near Columbus, OH, had to commute 33 miles one way to avoid the the restrictions, or pay three time what I could afford for one of the legacy homes in the area.

Kf7CG
 
HOA, CC&R's -- The Reason?  
by AC7DX on July 13, 2012 Mail this to a friend!

Illinois Governor Pat Quinn has signed Illinois House Bill 1390 into law. This despite unfounded fears on the part of some of the states radio amateurs as widely posted to the Internet. Fears that home owners associations and real estate groups would try to derail the measure. It turned out that these fears were totally groundless.

With Governor Quinn’s signature affixed, the Illinois Municipal Code was amended by adding Section 11-13-1.5. Paraphrased, it basically reads as follows:

With regard to Amateur radio communications and antenna regulations, and not withstanding any provision of law to the contrary, no ordinance or resolution may be adopted or enforced by a municipality that affects the placement, screening, or height of antennas or antenna support structures that are used for amateur radio communications. Also, a municipality may not regulate the antennas or antenna support structures that are used for amateur radio communications in a manner inconsistent with this Section.

It should be noted that Illinois House Bill 1390 does not supersede such things as deed restrictions, Covenants, Conditions Restrictions and homeowners association rules that forbid the installation of outdoor antennas. These are considered to be personal and binding business contracts and therefore not subject to override by the new PRB One-like law.
 
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