ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
Jim Hart (W7UIV)
on
April 27, 2002
View comments about this article!
On ABC news, 20/20 of April 20 there was a report on the downside of homeowner's associations. The story was not about hams, but anyone getting into problems.
A widow's home was taken away and sold at auction due to her being behind on dues. She was thereafter forceably removed from the home.
A Vietnam vet is being sued due to a flag he flies on a flagpole in commeration of his buddies killed there.
A homeowner is being sued because he mounted a night light in front of his home that is "not centered on the property". He mounted it towards the end of his home so as to give light to the side that's unlite by any other lights, as well as light to the front of the home.
Anyone would agree there may be protections desired of homeowner associations, such as to prevent pile up of trash, and home upkeep so a neighborhood doesn't degenerate. But maybe now us hams will get some help from people who are experiencing what going a bit overboard is like. Maybe this is the approach that should have been sought for a long time. Or maybe it's just been a matter of time until the rules, and the legal power to enforce them are finally catching up with the rest of the world? They have the sound of the old horror stories of IRS enforcement.
Interesting that the report opens with scenes of ambulances. I assume they were picking up homeowner association board members suffering injury as the result of revolt of irate homeowner's.
Any comments?
Jim
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K7LA on April 27, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The chief disadvantage of a HOA in a lot of states (not all) is liability. If your HOA gets sued and loses in court for several million dollars, after the insurance pays out the difference between the claim payout and the judgement must be made up by the HOA, meaning YOU the homeowner as an equal share of the liability. There goes your investment.
I have informed the XYL under no circumstances will I buy into a development or area with a HOA or CC&R's because you are actually signing away your individual rights.
My choice.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N1JAO on April 27, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I think this is a consumers rights issue. The more we as consumers buy products and real estate etc. etc. the higher prices will go, and the more "removal of rights in the interest of preserving property values" will be the norm. I mean, this is the damn question, does a person own the property or don't they?" The same type of thing has been happening in the past 50 years in this country with gun ownership. "Right to own and bear arms" is not even recognizable anymore. I know I am a bit off subject, but in a sense I am not. The thing I find the most odd is listening to a ham complain about ccr and restrictions AFTER signing on the dotted line!
N1JAO
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KB2SSA on April 27, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Homeowners associations are nothing but a group of Nazi's in disguise!
Nobody should have the right to tell me what I can or can not do on my property.
We all need to remember that original bill of rights said life, liberty and the pursuit of land, not happiness as it is today.
My country, my land, my house, GET OUT!
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N3JIY on April 27, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Join a HOA and severely restrict your property rights, in exchange
for the opportunity to live in a cookie-cutter home cut with
the same mold as all the other homes in the neighborhood.
What a deal !!!
Personally I can't imagine wanting to live in a cookie-cutter
neighborhood. Maybe on a vacation for a couple of days.
But to live there? No way. I prefer natural diversity.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9IND on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Look, I'm no fan of covenants, especially ones with ridiculous antenna restrictions. And no doubt some homeowners' associations are too full of themselves.
But as the secretary of a homeowners' association, I can tell you that there's another side to this issue. Our association dues are only $40 a year -- yet a few residents take the "I'm not paying and you can't make me" attitude. So what should our association do -- cut these rebels some slack, while the rest of us dutifully pay the cost of mowing the grass, keeping up the pond, etc.?
It's one thing if a person incurs, say, unexpected medical costs or the sudden death of a spouse. But trust me, there are plenty of people who live quite well while thumbing their noses at association rules. So why does that make the association the bad guy when it simply demands from them what everyone else in the neighborhood has to comply with? No one enjoys going to court, but somehow, I don't think an embossed invitation would be persuasive enough.
Last time I checked, no one was forced at gunpoint to buy a house in a neighborhood governed by a covenant. If you don't like it, buy property elsewhere, but don't "protest" by withholding your dues.
I'm not familiar with the 20/20 case, but I do know that in many instances, people who refuse to pay their assessments aren't poor or disadvantaged at all -- they simply think they shouldn't have to pay. Perhaps that was the case with the elderly woman -- who, in any case, was probably given umpteen warnings in writing over a period of months (or years) before finally getting kicked out of her home.
Again, I'm not defending overly restrictive covenants or overbearing neighborhood associations. But you can't expect associations to look the other way while a handful of people assert their "right" not to pay dues. Otherwise, the rest of us residents end up paying MORE dues to make up for the shortfall created by these chosen few.
Why complain about association rules after you've chosen to buy a home in that area? Isn't that a bit like taking a vacation at Disney World and then griping about all the kids hanging around?
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K0ABE on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'm tired of the attitude that states "you bought into this neighborhood with the restrctions, now live with them." Sorry guys, that's not how things work. Things change and neighborhoods change as well. The people who live in a neighborhood today aren't the same people who were there a few years ago. And besides, most homeowners' assns. and restrictions were set up by the original builder based on what the builder thinks the buyers want. When in reality most buyers really don't care and city/county ordinaces should cover most things anyway. It strikes me kind of funny that a builder would restrict TV atnennas in the neighborhood, put an attic antenna in each house but then everybody gets Direct TV and has a dish on their roof. So what happened, there's an antenna on everybody's house, OK so it's a dish, it's still an antenna (comes with the FCC's blessings too). It's up to the people who live in a neighborhood to change their restrictions. A person has a right to park his car in his garage even if it means building a shed in the back yard to store his yard tools. When an old lady gets booted from her house for not complying with assn. rules is just flat wrong. What happened to the old gal, she on the street? Are all the folks in her neighborhood happy campers now? Did the real-estate values increase? Chew on that for a while. AND... I didn't even bring up the antenna issue. The best thing to do is not buy in those neighborhoods, tell the real-estate agent why you're not buying in that neighborhood, then buy in an area where you can erect your antenna, string up that chain-link fence, and store your stuff in that shed out back.
73 Mike
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by INITZERO on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Right on, W9IND.
I, too, am secretary of my HOA. What most people
don't seem to understand is that it's all about
contract law.
When residents move into a CC&R neighborhood, they
are signing a contract to be bound by the rules of
the homeowner's association. The contract is to be
enforced to the same degree as their mortgage contract.
The same laws that ensures the bank gets their monthly
payment ensures the HOA gets their dues.
As for the lack of flexibility in the rules, that's a
matter law and not simply the board being a bunch of
anal-retentive, er, sphincters.
Before the last HOA meeting, I was reading through our
books. Of our 422 residents, 177 had missed the 30-day
window to pay the yearly dues of $110 but had paid
before the 60 day window. Unfortunately, that meant
that they owed us $1.68 in interest. It would cost us
$5 to send them a second bill to collect the $1.68.
So, I figured the board could just excuse the interest.
Good idea, since it would cost us more to collect than
to excuse, right?
Not so fast. Florida law (as with many other states,
I am told, not our CC&Rs) makes it illegal for the
board to excuse any dues payments. There's an
exception to the law... If 100% of the association
votes to excuse the debt, it can de done. Being that
fewer than 50 people even bothered to show up at the
annual meeting, there's no way we'll get 100% turn out
to excuse $297.36 of their money.
And, that, my friends, is point number two. The yearly
duse don't belong to the HOA. They belong to the
residents -- your neighbors. Were we not to collect
dues on a regular and timely basis from everyone, we
would have to collect *more* from the people who are
neighbors in good standing. The water bill must be
paid as well as the lawn company.
By failing to pay your dues, you are stealing from
your neighbors. That is simply not fair.
(The board, it turns out, can allow for delayed
payments but must charge interest. However, the only
way this will happens is if you contact us in advance
of failing to pay, tell us a good story and tell us
when you will be able to pay. If you simply don't pay
your bills, however, we're going to put a lien against
your house in short order. What we've found is that
folks who simply don't pay are also the ones with bad
paint, a lawn that is brown and whatnot. We really
don't want them dragging our property values down and
are happy to see them leave.
As for the other examples, I feel their pain. I, too,
can't put up the antenna I want. (Though I'm working
on that. It'll take a two-thirds vote to change the
rules.) However, it's the board's job to enforce the
rules. If they (we) fail to enforce the rules in a
timely and consistent manner, they can be sued.
More than that, if one rule can be bent, the residents
will think that all rules can be bent. While I don't
think any of us would be upset by a flag pole or 100'
tower with a tri-bander at the top, we might be upset
by a fluorescent pink house (peeling, of course) with
a sand pit for a yard and a Yugo up on blocks out
front. Would you like to see your house go from
$150,000 to $120,000 because of the neighborhood?
Who is to say what rules are ignored and what rules
should be enforced? You might say the board, but you
would be wrong. It's the contract.
If the neighborhood feels strongly enough about their
CC&R, they can change it. Ours requires a two-thirds
vote (279 of 422) to change or drop a rule. If we
wanted to abolish our CC&R, state law says we must
have 90% (380 votes) approval.
And there's the third point. We are all outraged by
the vet who doesn't get his memorial or the light that
is not centered. However, we're not their neighbors.
Their neighbors could rise together as group and allow
a flag pole or an uncentered light. However, they are
choosing not to. Maybe they like a flag-free area or
want symmetry. Who are you to tell them what they
should allow in their neighborhood? Who are you to tell
them how they should enforce their contracts?
If folks don't want to live in a CC&R community, there
is no need to buy into one. However, once you have
signed a legally-binding contract, don't whine about
it. For those who don't believe it is possible to find
a house without a CC&R, wake up. I took a 5,782 mile
road trip in March. There are still plenty of areas in
this country where you can buy lots in excess of 650
acres (roughly a square mile) and are bound by no
contractual regulations.
Matt (k4mls)
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N2MWE on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I live up the road from a development that has a Homeowner's Association. Looking at the comments in this forum so far, I can understand everyone paying their share to maintain the property the development is on. However, once someone within the Association get the proverbial but you-know-where, and decides to push rules like no trees on individual properties, no antennas, no fences without board approval, etc, I think now you are overstepping boundaries. It is one thing to form a group for a common good, however, some Associations begin to go overboard.
Across from this development is a newer development, without a HOA. Guess where most people are buying into, and guess which side most houses are up for sale? You guessed it! If you're going to pay almost 200,000 bucks for a house you want to enjoy, you're sure as hell not going to put up with an uninformed person telling you that you can't put up a "CB antenna," or that you cannot fence in your backyard for some privacy.
As far as being told you can live elsewhere, sometimes houses in developments are more affordable, and therefore the person has little choice. I don't think this gives the HOA the right to dictate to the homeowner. Remember, the homeowner still owns the property.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KG6AMW on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Unfortunately when you say homeowners associations you mean yourself. You have set the covenants, restrictions, you have taken away rights and you have changed the laws. Look closely in the mirror and you will see who changes things, makes mistakes and angers the other guy. The same thing applies to government, its YOU. Its the elected official who sets budgets, and drafts the laws that YOU elected. Next time you complain about goverment, associations, local boards, civil servants, etc, and you get angry for what they did, go get a mirror and see the person who is responsible it. The more people, the less the freedom. Where YOU go you will take your problems with YOU. You can't live in a large society and expect perfect freedom.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K2WH on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I am absolutely at a loss why anyone would want to live in a house that has attached HOA's or CCR contract wording. You turn into a tenant not a home owner.
And to another poster, you think you own your home? Yeah, you have the deed and all the paper work but, the government can come in and take your home for just about any reason, the town taxes you to live there, etc.
It seems that most housing here in the east, continues the tradition of developements with HOA's or CCR's. People want them so, buy them, so they shouldn't complain when they cannot do something that is different from the rest of the properties.
As to the boards getting too hostile and self important, this is correct because they become very political and the board members, love the power. If they did not, why would they join in the first place. Then again, you have to ask yourself, why HOA's at all. What are the members afraid of? LOSING MONEY!!! That's it in a nutshell.
The town I live in has a Lake Association, (Save the Lake). Most homes in the area do not border the lake. However, the association took a large group of homeowners who didn't pay the yearly fee to court and won! The homeowners who still refuse to pay (because they do not live near or use the lake), are now having cars and other property seized to pay the debt. Unbelievable.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I realize that the bulk of you guys living in these area's are forced to do so due to housing
availability in your areas, Here in this location these areas are full of people who think their
you know what doesn't stink. We have one area we call wanna be court due to the middle class
people who live there and want everyone to think they are in the big leagues. I too have already
mentioned to my wife that no way in hell were we going to purchase any property in one of these
areas to build on. I look at these people who are in hock up to their buttocks and have to eat
hot dogs for dinner in order to pay their bills and laugh. As far as the rest of the city here well
we have tower regs cant go over 30 ft high and thats only if you place it dead center of your property
of course if you go down and pay the zone board $400 (bribe????) you can get approval for a higher
tower. Most hams here just say hell with it and install what they want as the city is never going to
pursue a expensive legal battle over a piece of steel. I hope some day the feds are going to get
involved in this issue so all locations can enjoy ham radio. I did some real deep checking on where
our tower regs came from as they just appeared one day.... found out although cant get the city to
admit to it the cable tv companies are behind it and a small percentage of citizens complained
and rightly so about a few locations that looked like crap with several rusty towers with ugly
homebrewed antennas all over the yard, (these people complaining were the same ones who wont
go out and pick up after their dogs and have old appliances hidden in shrubs) . Go figure.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K8YS on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I have moved into an area that has a HOA. The home is my fiance's. The HOA is just ONE STREET and has the same crazy rules, no antennas, no out buildings/sheds, no fences in the front yard etc. Most everyone ignores the rules, but they still pay $300/yr dues. The dues cover state/local taxes on the unimproved land that borders only half the street. It covers the insurance on a retention pond, and the bush hogging of the unimproved land. There is a desire by the majority to desolve the HOA and deed the small portion of land between the half of the street and the state owned highway right-of-way. The problem is that somehow, somewhere, four homes got excluded from the HOA requirements and exempt from the dues, which leads to some guy deciding that if they did not have to pay, why should he? The HOA has put lien on his property, all the other homeowners must pay extra to cover his portion. To desolve the HOA, ALL members must agree, no some will not agree until the old fart pays up, which he refuses to do.
Moral of this story; NEVER MOVE INTO AN AREA THAT IS CONTROLLED BY A HOA, it only leads to trouble.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by AB2OS on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The association had been sending notices addressed to the elderly woman's deceased husband, but she had been throwing out all mail addressed to him; I don't recall how long previously he had died. Nobody ever came to see her and ask if there was a problem; she knew nothing about it until the sheriff's officers came to throw her out. She sued the homeowner's association and won.
Somebody interviewed on the program said that much of the trouble is with lawyers who advise associations to do whatever gets them (both the associations and the lawyers) the most money.
I don't doubt that some kind of regulations are desirable to prevent a decline in overall property values -- what happens to a house where neighboring properties are painted revolting colors or are unpainted or have junk in the yard? -- but it's outrageous that a person can't fly a US flag or put a security light where it does some good.
Alan
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
After reading this post and other posts on this site about CC&Rs and HOA, I get the feeling that many people believe that most people choose to live in neighborhoods with CC&Rs. Well in my case this was untrue. When I move to Houston, TX, I looked for new subdivisions that did not have HOAs. I checked over 30 new neighborhoods. All of them had HOAs and CC&Rs stating no antennas. I even checked subdivisions that offered 5 acres and larger lots, but they still had these stupid rules. Unless you are willing to live in an area that is in the middle of no where, or willing to accept schools that are less than desirable, or live ina a home taht's over 20 years old, forget it. HOAs is the rule in Houston!! Due to the bad press that HOAs are getting, I think a backlash is starting, and changes are coming. I remember when I was looking for a home in the Houston area, I wehwn to a city called The Woodlands. This city is a planned city. The entire city has a HOA and CC&Rs STRICTLY enforced. The rules for the HOA are bounded in a book that over 300 pages. Give me a break. When my wife finally chose our new home, I told the building that wanted to be excluded from the HOA, and he told me no way. At the closing, I refused to sign the HOA contract, and I was told that if I didn't sign, I would not get the house. I did sign it,but I currently have a 80 meter window and a vertical antenna installed. If the Nazi HOA cops tell me to talke them down, I will be ready to do battle, because they are not antennas. They are static indicator instruments. That's wasnt restricted in my CC&R.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W3GEO on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Sometimes you need to make a choice. Several years ago when we became a "blended" family of 7, a decision was made to investigate the purchase of a larger and newer house. My wife and I both have hobbies and interests that precluded us from buying into the new developments governed by restrictive covenants and homeowners associations. She shows dogs and I like to have antennas.
In one development there was a covenant that could be interpreted as restricting the use of any transmitting device on your property. I was told that this actually meant CB radio that could interfere with television reception. I pointed out that this could also preclude the use of cell phones, wireless phones, baby monitors etc, and was told that those things were ok. However there was no addendum to the covenant specifically saying that. There were also covenants restricting the number of pets allowed on the property and the erection of doghouses or small kennels.
There were also antenna restrictions the precluded TV, radio, and satellite antennas. (This was prior to the FCC action on the sat antennas) In short, you were forced into cable TV. Flag poles and certain yard displays were also prohibited as was vehicles with company logos being one of the vehicles used and regularly parked at the house by the homeowner. To some extent these covenants were in force at almost all of the new construction subdivisions and many of the subdivisions that were built locally since 1980 or so.
In the end we decided to stay in our older and more modest house. The kids grew up and went off to college and are now all living on their own except for my 6-year-old daughter. My house, built in the late 60s is more than enough for a family of 3 and we have no associations of covenants that restrict our activities.
If you choose to live in a planned, restricted subdivision, then you really only have three choices. Live with the restrictions, Try to get them changed or try to find an acceptable way around them. Above all.... know what you are getting into before you buy.
73 George, W3GEO
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K3DLB on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
We wouldn't need homeowner's associations if people would have pride in the appearance of their homes. Instead, here in Florida, people put junk cars, worn out refrigerators, and all other types of garbage in their yards. They don't paint, mow their lawns or do anything to enhance their home. They live like slobs. They bring the property values down and don't care about anybody but themselves. I recently sold my house (in a HOA neighborhood) and made a very good profit because the neighborhood was kept clean by the HOA and our property values went up. The association allowed me to have my antenna because I went to the meetings, became active and informed them of the benefits of amateur radio (I know that doesn't work with all HOA's). I don't agree with HOA's when they act like the Gestapo but I understand why they were created......to keep the slobs out!
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WF0H on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
My interests with HOA's and CC&R's naturally revolves around antennas.
Years ago, I worked with a group of concerned citizens who noticed that 100% of the housing being built in our part of California had CC&R's outlawing any form of outside antennas. Why? Because the local cable TV company refused to wire any subdivision that did not have the CC&R's. As usual, "he who has the gold makes the rules".
When 100% of the new housing being built for a number of decades now has had this restriction, there is no legitimate argument that people have a choice. Virtually any home in any subdivision is restricted.
I don't care if the HOA's choose to outlaw breathing in public, so long as they do not outlaw all outside antennas.
Unlike local zoning laws, which can be changed through democratic means, CC&R's are permanent restrictions put in place by developers who may be decades absent.
This is why ARRL has repeatedly asked FCC to pre-empt CC&R's - and they have refused to do so because it is a "private" matter. I believe that some form of federal pre-emption would be very beneficial.
Meanwhile, all those entrapped in these situations should install stealthy antennas. I'm very fond of the vertical antennas disguised as flagpoles and roof jacks. Don't just give up and let the bad guys win. Try PSK31 - I've had several great QSO's on 20 meters with an indoor folding whip and 2 watts.
I, too, urge you to avoid buying a home with CC&R's where possible, and to fight them wherever it is not practical to avoid them.
-K0RGR
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N9EYL on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
What if somebody wants to paint their house a revolting color?? It is probably not revolting to them or they wouldn't paint it that color. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Should that homeowner go around the neighborhood and ask all of the other homeowners what color they prefer? I understand wanting to preserve property values. But if I can't paint my house the lovely color I want, or put up the beautiful antennas I want then my property has just lost some of it's value to me. And the last time I checked I was paying the mortgage.
But, I bought into it. I wanted to preserve my property value too. Which after ten years has maybe appreciated by about five percent. I guess people aren't that crazy about moving into a "Vinyl Village" with a HOA as some of the busybodies in the HOA might think. In my HOA of 47 houses I already know of a least eight people who have had to declare bankruptcy. Most without losing a job or having a major life crisis. At one time I had two houses directly adjacent to me in REPO status. One of the REPO's belonged to the former HOA president. His wife always liked to give me commentary on how I should have arranged my flowers and where I should move my trees. I guess I didn't have good taste in flowers and I guess they weren't as rich as they thought they were. Right now I need to expand my house but of course it would all be subjected to "Architectural Review" and my options would be extremely limited. How does that help my property value? For me not being able to easily expand my house has caused it to lose some of its value for me. I didn't build my house for all of my mostly anonymous neighbors that might have to look at it. I built it because I needed a place to live.
And then there are the covenants, which I have to follow because I have agreed to them right? Who could have a problem with that? When I wanted to build a fence for my dog I had to build a expensive wood privacy fence because that was all that was allowed according to the covenants. Since then at least a half of dozen chain links have went up. The rules are only for the people who play by the rules. And the enforcement of the covenants is very political and selective.
Anyway, I have my house on the market and I have bought two acres in an old neighborhood without any covenants or restrictions other than the necessary sewer and water easements. It is not in a cookie cutter vinyl village! It cost 11% more than my "Vinyl Village Property Value Preserving HOA lot" and is about 8 times as big. I just can't wait to put up all of my antennas! Which to me are a thing of beauty! :)
It really galls me how many times you have to explain to a Realtor® that you refuse to buy into a HOA. I suggest writing it down on a piece of paper and giving it to them to help reinforce the spoken word. If your Realtor® has a hard time understanding the written word you might want to look for another one who can read and understand what they have read. Even then you are going to have to remind them from time to time what you have told them. For me after four Realtors® I found an independent broker who was able to understand what I was so kindly trying to tell him.
From my experience HOA's DON'T preserve property value. They hurt it! At least they do in my area of the country. Just look at the appreciation of the ten-year-old homes that are in HOA's versus those that aren't in your own area and see.
Jeff
AE9J
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by NF0J on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I will never understand why somebody would pay to be told how to live. Insane.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KE4ETY on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I am no lawyer, but here is what seems to be the crux of the matter.
It seems to me that it should be fundamentally and irrevocably impossible and highly illegal to "sign away" our constitutional rights. Way too many brave defenders have paid the ultimate price over the last 200 plus years to preserve the liberties we enjoy as a result of our constitution. By my way of thinking, some things simply are not for sale or barter-not for ANY price.
Regarding the vet who is fighting over the flag he displays in tribute to those who died in his arms in service to our country and its constitution: I wonder what those who paid the ultimate price to defend and preserve our constitution would have to say about CC&Rs.
Part of living in a free society is the mandate to put up with reasonable diversity.
My Mom had a saying that still rings true-
"If you want to run the world, buy it first and put a fence around it."
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8YV on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Insofar as this thread relates to amateur radio, the best solution to such Draconian laws against our service is federal pre-emption. The rights of TV viewers are already protected under law, against restrictive homeowners/landlords/CC&Rs---with few exceptions, mostly in the interest of historical preservation---renters and homeowners have the right to erect satellite dishes or TV antennas, even in rented apartments!
PRB-1 is not quite so powerful as the 1996 Communications Act amendment, but it is very important that we as amateurs support PRB-1 bills as they gain momentum across the nation. Sixteen states have incorporated PRB-1 into their laws. Tennessee recently failed to ratify, mainly due to lack of bill support.
Michigan is now the focus of legislative efforts to incorporate PRB-1 into its laws. Other states will soon be involved. I encourage all amateurs to first, support this legislation. It is critical to our own future. Once in place throughout the nation, the adopted standards will carry HUGE sway in furtherance of other, more localized laws and possibly even begin to affect "traditional" CC&Rs.
Before PBR-1 can extend to Homeowner Associations, it must first be recognized and become part of the laws of the state in which the associations exist. Only then, can further legislation be enacted to begin prying-loose the stranglehold on the amateur radio service that now exists nationwide.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KB9YUR on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I don't have my history book in front of me, but I don't remember HOA's back in the 1950's
when there were millions of TV antenna's on roofs. No one seemed to care then.
Years ago someone said that when a country has more laws and lawyers then engineers,
then it's all down hill for that society. We've become a nation of conformists where each
home (box) looks the same, much like the fast food places dotting our nation. Common
sense has gone the way of a litigious society where the mighty dollar is the last word.
So how many more freedoms are we going to loose (or have lost since 9-11)?
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K6ALF on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I've read the far right... I've read the far left...
I'm relocating to a new town(Company I work for is moving me). I and my wife have looked at EVERY new home development.. All of the have CC&R's.. Some are more better than others in terms of the restrictions.
In those new areas, CC&R's are "self enforcing". There is an Archtectual Control Committee that "enforces" the rules till the last house is sold, then it's up the
the lot owners to vote if they want to continue w/ a
committee or not. No dues can be collected. There is
no HomeOwners Association.
No, I'm not rich nor retired and can buy a few acres up
on a hill... So.... Gotta live w/ what I can get. Wife wants "new" and "in town", so I'll have to live with CC&R's for now..
Here's the restriction in terms of "Antennas".....
Antennas,Satellite Dishes. External Fixtures.
No satellite dish or similar structure shall be located on any Lot or Parcel within the "<Development name>" Property, temporarily or permantently, if such dish or similar structure is visible from any
other Lot or Parcel or from any street; any such proposed location shall besubmitted to the Committee for its review and approval, based on its determination of the visibility or nonvisibility thereof. To the extent allowed by law, the installation of solar panels shall be subject to the prior written approval of the Committee.
So, what do you think??
;-)
Tony
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KE4NYV on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'll tell you what HOAs are, they are nothing but a bunch of rich, whiny, perfectionist nutcases. These are the type of people that worship Martha Stewart and would spit on you if you had one imperfection on anything that you owned. I would'nt live in one of these places if the last choice to live was a 2 cent whorehouse. The members of these things just make it worse and they only produce infected children that grow up to be the same. I have never encountered one of these personally, but I have known people who have and making this statment is my way to fight back for them!!! I am reminded of a wonderful saying:
"Question authority!"
73's
Jason KE4NYV
www.ke4nyv.com
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N3JIY on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Tony (K6ALF),
You should have no problems if you decide to move into this neighborhood.
It's not hard to make antennas that are invisible to your neighbors. It does
not have to look like an antenna to work as one. There are many, many
ways to make antennas your neighbors cannot see. This should not be a
deciding factor in moving here. Find another one. Good luck.
N3JIY
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC7BDP on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Been reading the posts up to now; I'm amazed at the number of ''I HAVE to live in a development with CCR's and HOA's" posters.
I know of three Hams who live in a deeply embedded CCR/HOA neighborhood not 1/2 mile from my home; one has let his license lapse, one has the most amazingly "enhanced" grapefruit tree in his backyard, and one has had a temporary mast and multiband dipole clamped (yes folks, with a C-clamp) to his house eave. The neighborhood's average property value has dropped about 1.4% in the past 14 years, due in part to the quality of construction. There's a reason for that particular time period, and I'll get back to it. Looking back I'm surprised to think that my wife and I almost bought a new home there; but I was put off by the CCR's and the HOA.....
Bought in an old neighborhood (my house was 31 years old and a RENTAL when I bought it) without all the the above. Most everybody here bought for much the same reason - we're a bunch of non-conformists and not afraid of work. I have to put up with my neighbor's 3 barking dogs; but he has to put up with two verticals, three yagis, and my daughter's FFA projects (a lamb and a goat). According to my Tax Statements, **my** property value has INCREASED 21.2% in the 14 years I've owned it. Market value would probably would be higher if I broke down and did some landscaping work (yes, there are some brown patches in my front lawn and the back lawn is a mess - see above about the lamb and goat).
I think several of the above posters are absolutely correct; if you don't want to put up with CCR's and HOA's, the simple solution is to not buy in such a neighborhood. You just might find there are other advantages.....
Jimmy
KC7BDP
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W6EZ on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Another interesting item to look at in CC&Rs IF you you have an older home, are the hidden restrictions that you will never see in the disclosures before the sale.
Any CC&Rs that are on the deed will be on the deed as long as the property exists.
For example, I have a friend who purchased a home that was built in 1938. When he decided to put up an antenna he did a full serch on the deed restrictions and found that there was a restriction that said that the property could never be sold to any person of black, spanish, jewish or slavic ancestery. Wow!
Now such restrictions are totally illegal now, but if they are on the CC&Rs what makes the other restrictions legal? I Mean, how can one be legal and another one not legal. They are in the same CC&Rs.
In any case, he did put up an antenna and has had no problems other than the one neighbor who said he burned out her brand new electric range with his "radio beams' from that big antenna. But, that is another tale.
73 W6EZ
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9JCM on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I live in Northern Nevada. We moved from Chicago to this are 5 years ago. We lived in a Apartment in Reno for quite a while. When we were ready to buy a home all that there was in our price range we CCR CCR CCR we are talking strict ones too. Why the hell should I pay 150,000 dollars for a home and have some jerk HOA tell me how to paint my house. There is no way on earth that we would get into something like that even if I wasn't a ham. Its the biggest farce going today. Its a bunch of pompus yuppies wanting to be the BIG BOSS and tell people how things should look and live. So anyhow we are now living in a rural area 49 miles from Reno and commute. Our state just passed a law stating any NEW subdivisions must give hams a certain right to put up antennas. So the plan is to stay here maybe a year or 2 more and get back closer to town. Into a new subdivision. But, you see these CCR NAZI's forced us to go far out. They are starting to get a taste though and we just sit back and Laugh with the new law in effect.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N6JSX on April 28, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'm in my third house and the first question I asked before even considering the house is what are the restrictions - if any antenna/tower I walk away.
The problem is in So CA... If you want to buy a home that is newer than 20 yrs of age you get trapped into buying one with CC&R's. Since about 1984, all track homes have CC&R's restricting antennas and more. The housing market is FORCING people into these situations. One part of me hopes that LA gets a major catastrophy and government officials severly suffer due to limited communications and these housing tracks will get little to no emergency assitance. Due to the housing market being like this in So CA - I expect the first landmark law suite to take place in California to busting CC&R's as being unconstitutional.
I can understand some of the rules are just common sense and keeping the neighborhood looking good - heck in So CA you know what part of town you are in when your see a sofa out on the front porch or front lawn with a stripped down car in the driveway - usually I get out of that area quickly.
But in all CC&r's have there place IF there are limited and have some common sense to the restrictions but most go off the deep.
I will NEVER live in a CC&R place - I couldn't be a HAM with my outside antennas - nope, never, no way, nota!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC9L on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I would never, ever, ever live in an area with CC&Rs for three reasons:
1. All the houses look the same.
2. I keep getting lost in all those stupid suburban curvy streets (at least around here, the farther you get from the city the wackier the streets get)
3. I like to do what I want with my property.
Sure, if I want to put up guy wires in my city lot, I have to ask my neighbors if I could anchor them in their yard. :) but i wouldn't trade it for anything.
There are already enough strip malls and cookie cutter developments around here. I don't want to contribute to them any more than I have to :)
73, Chris KC9L
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W0BKR on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HOA's are a bunch of C**P! They may have had their place in their private little utopia communities, but more and more "real" individuals are staying away from them because of their gestapo like environments where instead of neighbors, you have "informants".
Zoning laws are sufficient for me. HOA's are dinosaurs and should be made illegal.
If you like living in a gulag, then all power to you.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N7XM on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HOAs and CCCRs are NOT for free thinking Americans!
Daniel Boone was ready to move when he saw a column
of smoke on the horizon. While I have not reached that
level yet; I do understand that state of mind.
Many folks feel secure lost in the herd ! Call it
herd instinct, very common in cattle, fish and birds !
Just look at all the suburban communities with little
ticky tack houses on little ticky tack lots - all the same.
Folks that were frustrated in their working Life are
now eager members of the Zoning board OR HOAs ! Here is
a place to exercise their " power " , a place to "be heard " ! Little depots that they are !
Long live Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett !
Do I sound a bit senile ? I hope so !
The human condition is ripe with great potential - but
most human behavior is " pathetic " !. HOA and most CCRs are examples of the desire to control others and
in so doing achieve some kind of "security" !
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KG4ODX on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
socialist, communist and most of all UNAMERICAN. A mans home is his castle or as the founding fathers put it LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KV4BL on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I am fortunate enough to live in an older neighborhood without an HOA or CC&R's but I am brought into daily contact with such neighborhoods and this gives me the opportunity to observe some at close range. One thing that I have noticed in general (and with exceptions) is that these governing boards have their share of little wannabe Castro's, Idi Amin's, Hitler's or whatever. Same can be said for school boards and most city and county councils. Many have said that you should not buy a HOA/CC&R house if you don't want to live in one. Fine, but in most areas around here, all of the new developement is CC&R/HOA, so if one wants a new house, what are his or her choices??? A ham friend of mine lives in an older neighborhood which started a "neighborhood association" a couple of years ago. He understands that the wannabes have already "discussed" his tower a time or two although they have wisely not confronted him about it as of yet. I know I'm getting off of the topic a bit here, but part of the problem, as I see it, is that we (the human race) are breeding ourselves into oblivion at an astronomical rate. I can see how 20-30 years ago, someone might not see the harm they were doing in having more than two children per couple (should be zero population growth), but it is so painfully obvious that we are running out of land and other resources, causing a demand or at least a tolerance for cookie-cuttter houses on tiny lots with CC&R's, that I cannot view people having four, six, eight, children as anything other than irresponsible, regardless as to whether they are in a high socio-economic bracket or not. Our society, in some areas, continues to unwisely view numerous children and grandchildren as a sign of productivity and success, rather than focus on quality and acheivement of fewer children and grandchildren. Who doesn't live in an area where the issue of "overcrowded schools" is constantly in the news? Though it would be politically unpopular, to put it mildly, instead of granting tax breaks, perhaps the government should start adding taxes for those who exceed two children per couple, as they are the ones who are really contributing to the problems of overstressed resources. Naa, the politicians won't have enough spine to take that one on. So, until we wake up and quit outstripping our resources, we can only look for the problem to get worse. I know I have probably stepped on a few toes with that, to include some good friends, but I feel it needed to be brought out. Back on topic, we do need to get the FCC or someone to exempt amateur radio antennas from these overbearing rules. 73, Ray KV4BL
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KG4ODX on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
It's a good thing that Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, the Wright Bros. and others like them did not live in a HOA! We would not have cars, eletric lights or airplanes. What about Bell and Marconi, without them no telephone no radio, AHHH NO RADIO!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by INITZERO on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
> Long live Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett!
N7XM,
You have forgot the Alamo. Boone and Crockett both
died young. They were a couple of bone heads who
didn't know when the battle was lost. CC&Rs are not
the hill I wish to die on.
> it is so painfully obvious that we are running
> out of land
KV4BL,
In March, I took a 5,782 mile road trip across much
of the Southeast, West and Southwest and (14 states,
if I remember correctly). I can assure you we are not
running out of land. There were days that I drove a
couple hundred miles without seeing another car let
alone a town or gas pump.
If you gave every American citizen five acres of land,
you could fit us all west of the Mississippi and not
even have to touch Texas or Montana.
In one part of New Mexico, I could buy 150 acres for
what I paid for a house and a quarter acre in Orlando,
FL. Land is neither scarce nor expensive so long as
you are not too particular about the location.
I'm happy to live in a CC&R community. Our dues are
low ($110 a year) and our neighborhood clean. Crime
is very rare. Exterior improvements require approval
but we haven't turned down a request in the two years
I have been involved with the process. The board (of
which I am a member) would much rather stay home and
watch TV than fix something that isn't broke so unless
there is a reason to hold the monthly meeting, we
simply don't.
Lots of people claim not to like religion for reasons
I'm hearing they don't like CC&Rs. It's a shame that
y'all can't recognize that HOAs aren't all the same.
There are bad ones, of course, but there are also very
good ones. Instead of painting them all the same, look
a bit deeper.
Further, as I noted earlier, every CC&R can be
dissolved with a vote of its membership. Saying you
hate your CC&R/HOA is saying you hate your neighbors.
And, if that's the case, you're not going to be really
happy anywhere you move.
Matt (k4mls)
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8EMR on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The problem with HOA is clearly defined below. People seem to think they should be able to tell me what to do with my property. What I do with my land is no one's business once you get basic safety out of the picture. If I want a junk car in my yard. Its my car, my yard, mind your own business. As for mowing, What if I dont think that a chemically processed green yard is the way a yard should look.
HOA's want natual looking grass but bitched and moaned in the summer when grass goes to a "NATURAL" brown dormant state in the heat of the summer.. Their version of natural was daily wasting water and monthly chemical treatments to keep it "natural" looking. The whole idea of someone having to approve things for my home. plants, tree's fences, playsets. Its no one business.
HOA are designed to keep everyone looking, acting and being the same. Never again will I have a hoa or ccr's on my land.
We wouldn't need homeowner's associations if people would have pride in the
appearance of their homes. Instead, here in Florida, people put junk cars, worn out
refrigerators, and all other types of garbage in their yards. They don't paint, mow their
lawns or do anything to enhance their home. They live like slobs. They bring the
property values down and don't care about anybody but themselves. I recently sold
my house (in a HOA neighborhood) and made a very good profit because the
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by AC7EW on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Ahh, CC&Rs! I moved from Montana to Arizona early last year. In Montana I owned a half acre outside of Great Falls. The community had some CC&Rs. They mostly delt with how close you could build to the property line, etc. just like city ordinances would have. I had a forty-foot mast out back with no problems.
I am renting in a gated community on the eastern edge of Mesa that has CC&Rs that describe what color the house can be painted, what kind of plants can be used for landscaping, etc. I'm not allowed to work on my car in my driveway or even park on the street (which is OK since the streets are narrow). Antennas are NOT ALLOWED. Changing or chanceling the CC&Rs is not possible because to do that requires at least three-quarters of the home owners to agree. There are over two thousand homes in the master association. I doubt you could get ten percent to show up at a meeting if you threatened to burn down all the homes if they didn't come.
When I buy I'll buy an older home because my wife and I refuse to have the kind of restrictive covenants that EVERY NEW HOUSE comes with around here. Besides, the older houses are better built. I would not have accepted the house we live in. The construction is cheap and shoddy. It was obviously built in a hurry.
The community I live in has a community pool, a sports court, and lots of common area. The HOA is needed to take care of all of this. I have no problem with an HOA or CC&Rs as long as they are not too restrictive. This area has small lots and trying to erect a tower in this neighborhood is not a good idea. A roof mounted verticle, if painted a neutral color, would work fine (I wouldn't even mind if it wasn't painted) but all antennas are prohibited. Of course, I'm down on this now because the association just elected a new president and she thinks she's been elected dictator. Since I'm a renter instead of a property owner i get ignored a lot.
CC&Rs could work if they tried to be as unrestrictive as possible. The problem I see is that the builders just grab a boiler-plate CC&R document that they have on file and insert it in the deeds for every new developement. If they would adopt a less restrictive template things would get better in a hurry for new homes, but they have no incentive to do so.
I'm not sure what the answer is. For now, I'm supporting the ARRL in their efforts to get congress to apply PRB-1 to CDC&Rs. I think we also need to work on that at the state level.
73 de AC7EW
Kelly
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The repeating theme is that "I checked all the new housing tracts, and they all had CC&R's...."
Yep.
Apparently, those doing so didn't check the older developments and neighborhoods, which rarely if ever have any restrictions.
I have no sympathy, and surely no empathy, for those who have restricted themselves into a corner like this. I know people -- hams -- who complain vehemently about having antenna restrictions, after they knowingly purchased homes in CC&R areas because they "liked the security gate" or some other ridiculous reason.
And the post about HOAs and bankruptcys is very right. Locally, I know of a few HOAs who went bankrupt, rendering all the resident owners liable for their bills, back taxes, etc -- until every owners' property had devalued to the point where it would be cheaper to hand over the keys and just walk away, than continue making payments.
The best way to avoid being trapped is to never step into the trap's opening.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA5QBX on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I moved into a subdivision in the Houston Area with very restrictive CC&Rs. I did this with my eyes wide open (signed the contract). I actually became vice president of the HOA. Again with my eyes wide open.
For those uninformed, it is amazing the number of residents with their own agenda. The "wanna-bes" that do not know where their next house payment is coming from. Much less the $594 per year dues. There are over 1,400 residents in this subdivision. That is big money close to a million.
When I left the subdivision we had started siezure procedures on three homes because of non-payment of three years of dues. This was after numerous letters, trying to set them up on an easy payment plan,pleading with the residents. Do not think this did not pray on the minds of the board members. Also do not think all board members are hard hearted. You have to think a long time before you kick someone out of their home.
The HOA was faced with the issue of TV and dish antennas. A couple on the board of five members wanted to ban all outside antennas. There was (is)a provision that no kind of transmitting is allowed. I reminded them that if we try to enforce this then do not let me see any of the board members going down the street talking on their cell phone. That stopped that in a hurry.
I had antennas in the attice and even a dipole along the top of my privacy fence. It was constructed so that if you did not know what it was you could not see it.
I now live in the country where I have recently raised a 40 ft tower with the neighbors wanting to help.
It is nice not to have to worry about CC&Rs.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I have nothing against "Homeowner's Associations" per se, only the CC&Rs that normally come along with the HOAs.
Here in the L.A. area, HOA fees are generally much higher than those being discussed here. When I purchased a condo back in '89, the HOA fees were $250 monthly ($3,000 annually) and that was considered about mid-stream. However, I had no issue with this because the HOA fees included all our water use (water bill paid by HOA and not individual member households, since there weren't even any meters on the individual units), and the HOA maintained a multimillion dollar insurance policy on the place, even covering earthquake damage; and they maintained all the common grounds' landscaping, pools, hot tubs, parking lots, walkways, etc. All in all, definitely worth the $250 a month -- my water bill alone, if I had an individual one, would have been about half that.
HOAs can actually lower the cost of living for many people, by sharing expense for things shared and enjoyed by all. Great system.
The "rules" are the bad part. HOAs needn't necessarily have CC&Rs. The good ones don't.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8FVJ on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Everyone, have not all of you noticed a general lack of freedom & respect for one another in the last 30 years?
1) Drug related crimes.
2) Paying taxes to support people that will not work.
3) Lawsuits increased at an alarming rate.
4) Violence and sex on television.
The list goes on & on.
My suggestion is to be very careful and to keep your personal freedom as paramount. I live in an unzoned community in the middle of farm land controlled by farmers. Our home is about 90% self substaining, wind power will have it 100% self substaining in short order. If the 'going gets too tough' here, I will move to a more remote location. Good luck, Jim
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by INITZERO on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
> My suggestion is to be very careful and to keep
> your personal freedom as paramount
N8FVJ, isn't the flip side of freedom responsibility?
Isn't part of freedom being allowed to make poor
decisions and then being held accountable for the
results of those freely made poor decisions?
In the state of Florida, you can't move into a CC&R
community without signing a paper at closing that
says you have read and understand the CC&R and that
you agree to be bound by those rules. Some people
sign that paper without doing the proper do diligence
but that is their prerogative, right? An expression
of their freedom to be stupid, right?
Shouldn't Americans (of the age of majority) have the
right to enter into a contract and have that contract
upheld by the courts?
HOAs bind communities. Residents enter into those
communities because they share a belief that a
neighborhood bound by a CC&R is better than one
without. Those residents knew that there would be
rules. Since they read the documents, they knew what
would be involved in changing those rules should they
have a grievance with the community.
As another noted, HOAs may be dissolved by a vote of
the residents. HOAs don't exist in spite of the
residents. They exist at the favor of the residents.
If you live in a community that has what you find to
be excessively restrictive rules, petition the board
to change the rules and get the residents to vote for
that change. If you don't have the votes to change the
rules, chances are you're the odd man out and the
rules aren't really excessively restrictive.
In any case, drop the subterfuge of this being an
issue of freedom. If that were the case, you would
be in favor of two consenting adults being able to
enter into a legally binding agreement. As it is,
you support cheating cry babies who want to shrink
from their legal responsibilities.
Matt (k4mls)
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
You guys sure got the HOA's nailed to a tee. Listen I am going to say that after being in the electrical construction trade for over 20- years now I've seen it all. Most of these homes are what are called fast tracks, the bulk of them are built by cutting corners so the big chief builder gets his ass pocket a little fatter. Dealing with these dudes is special as it requires the sub-contractors to spend hours filing lien paperwork notice of furnishings etc etc. It has gotten to the point where most of us won't waste our time working for these shysters, And we are always busy when they call even if we have our feet up on the desk if you know what I mean. Usually the people who buy into these areas are either caught by the short hairs and need a place pronto , or somewhere along the line they are the one's , you know who just have to be noticed all the time, play the big rich man role. Most of the people who get on the association
board suffer from what my ole man used to call the little pee-pee syndrome and now they have a chance to be a big wheel and boss everyone around. I've said it once and will say it again, No way in hell your ever gonna see me living in one of these places . I would pitch a tent out on state land before getting suckered into one of these deals. You say the crime rate in these area's are low HA! over here the undercover narc's load up more of these people's spoiled brats than from the housing projects. I kind of
like my area even if I have to have recording camera's on the storage sheds and insure it via smith and
wesson.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9MDX on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Sorry guys. This is a non issue! How can anybody defend a homeowner who KNOWINGLY signs away his rights? If you purchase a home and agree to be bound by covenants, how can you complain about being told you can't mount a light, a flagpole, a flower bed, an antenna. Use all of the emotional examples you want, such as putting up a flag for his dead buddies from VietNam, but that idiot must be real dumb because he knowingly signed away his rights to do that before he moved in! It's a sure case of people wanting to make an issue out of something for the sake of making an issue out of something.
Sort of like buying a rig off of Epay that say's it's NON-working and "AS IS" and then complaining that it doesn't work.
|
| |
|
Liability & Homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KE4DRN on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
My association got hit with a large out of court
settlement because things were not done properly.
A homeowner put in a pool (against county rules and the HOA rules) and did not do anything to remove it.
Complaints were filed, dues were not paid, lein filed
and then lawsuit is filed on basis the homeowners rights were violated and due process was not followed.
The end result is the HOA had to settle out of court
to avoid a long case and large sums of money for the defense of the case and law fees.
Insurance covered most of the settlement but the HOA
had to kick in from the budget, so I and all the homeowners in the subdivision ended up paying.
The homeowner with the pool then sold his house.
To prevent this from happening again, the HOA changed the complaint policy so you need at least THREE homeowners to sign a complaint letter or it gets sent back to you for two more signatures.
Go figure.
73
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W7UIV on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Buying a home in a non CC&R area is even a risk (at least in Colorado). An employee of the company I work for is an engineer at a major satellite uplink facility near Denver, and also is a ham. He bought an acre out in a non restricted area where he put up his 50 foot tower, and all was fine until developers bought some land not too far away, and were able to push through CC&Rs that took in other lands in the area, including his acre. After several court hearings, the tower had to come down.
Not everyone lives in gated communities with swimming pools and that sort of thing, as has been brought up for examples here. If ya move there, well I tend to agree with others that you have nothng to holler about. But those are really a whole different story.
Reason would have it that in ordinary neighborhoods the goal is simply to keep things in order and not have junk piling up. And if a ham does put up an antenna, he should be reasonable too. Use a crankup, and crank it down when not using it. Paint it to match surroundings, or whatever is needed. But there need not be the same kinds of "hard" restrictions as for those special communities. As, for example, the ability of taking in other properties and making a guy on an acre of land down the road take his tower down. Something seems wrong here, and possibly worthy of attention before it gets too far out of control.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K3DLB on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The reason I live in a CC&R community is because of the paragraph below:
............."People seem to think they should be able to tell me what to do with my property. What I do with my land is no one's business once you get basic safety out of the picture. If I want a junk car in my yard. Its my car, my yard, mind your own business. As for mowing, What if I dont think that a chemically processed green yard is the way a yard should look"..............
This sounds like a typical response from a member of the "me" generation. Hooray for me and the heck with you. What about the "rights" of people that don't want to live in junkyard neighborhoods? Those of us that live in CC&R neighborhoods do so because we're tired of people that move into nice communities and turn their houses into garbage dumps. For me, my house is an investment. For some, it's just an oversize dumpster !!! A person with pride in themselves would not put garbage in their yard. A person with respect for others would not put a junk car in their yard. A person with civility would want to keep his home and community presentable.
Why have CC&R's become so popular in the last several years? Because people are tired of putting up with the type of person described above. Some people work hard for their money and don't want their largest investment to be devalued by an "I don't care about anybody but myself junk collector." If you want to be a junk collector, great, do it. Go out to the wilderness, buy 50 acres, and trash it up all you want. When you live in a "community" (a body of people living near one another and in social relationship.....Webster's Dictionary) it's a different situation.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7KOY on April 29, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Anyone that signs a covenant is asking for problems.
One post called these people "rebels" if they do not want to pay.
Sounds like extortion to me pure and simple.
We just rid ourselves of one such organization here thank God. Organize yourselves and they vanish very quickly especially at the prospect of a lawsuit by residents.
In this country we have forgotten that a home is private property. And everyone has the right to own a home anywhere without a self styled dictatorship by persons who are more concerned with your business than minding their own business and extorting money from people in the name of "community".
I'm a firm believer in good fences make for good neighbors.
What these self styled dictators need is a serious class action lawsuit. Let them morgage their houses to pay their attorney fees and they will run from the next "covenant" they want to extort from people.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K6YE on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Well,
I guess I will add my opinion. First if you buy into CCRs, then you must abide (forget about crying later). When I first saw them here in Los Angeles County in the early 60s, I determined they had good and bad points. However, I had no desire to live where they were in force.
When the XYL and I decide on homes, we cannot consider CCR type environments due to our desire to house our Class A motorhome on the property and my penchment for towers. We live in a very upscale home (2400 square feet, two-story, one-third acre, in the "burbs"), our motorhome has its own driveway (and does not blight the neighborhood) and I can tastefully put up large antennas. As some of the other threads have said, one can still find real estate sans restrictions (provided the spouse does not demand NEW and GATED). Good luck in your venture.
Tommy, K6YE
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC7BDP on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
For AC7EW; if you're living in Arthur Godfrey's (yes!) favorite old gated community on Power Road south of Broadway; I can probably (if I can find them again)show you two 40M 1/4 wave-sized flagpoles - one has a base coil able to shunt-feed on 80 and a small sliver of 160 - and at least one set of rain gutters fed by an SGC tuner. During the time my brother was "Physical Property Director", one of the Hams was on the HOA Board. It's amazing how easily the other two antennas flew through, even though a meeting could take hours discussing somebody's new ficus tree!
For everybody else who can't find "appropriate" housing without CCR's; well, you're getting what you're paying for. It's kind of like buying that brandnew wonder whizbang DC-Light YaeComWood with 256 memories, 44 menus, 5 DSP units and computerized auto-tuner/nose-wiper; and complaining about not being able to work on it. If you're now surprised or if these "new rules" cropped up AFTER you bought, it's because you obviously weren't paying the proper attention.
Jimmy
KC7BDP
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9IND on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Sorry, guys, but somehow, I just can't view this issue with the same God-and-country fervor that many of my fellow hams seem to harbor.
That's probably because:
(1) I don't see home/property ownership as a ticket to do whatever you want with your land, regardless of whether it's located in a neighborhood governed by a covenant, and
(2) No matter how you slice it, this ultimately boils down to your basic "caveat emptor" contract law.
Let's examine my first point. I wholeheartedly agree that many covenants are ridiculous and many neighborhood associations are overly zealous. But I hardly see that as some scary example of Americans losing our freedoms. Since when has any American had the right to do whatever he wanted with his property?
You don't believe me? Okay, non-HOA residents, try to open a nuclear waste dump in your front yard. Try
to chop down any redwood you find growing on your back 40. Try to round up a flock of bald eagles and invite your friends over to hunt them. Try to set up a radio station that transmits, unlicensed, on the FM broadcast band. Try to make and sell moonshine whiskey from your front porch. Try to operate your own graveyard without a permit. What, you can't get away with any of that? Why, I thought you could do whatever you wanted on your property! Gee, isn't it appalling that the U.S. government is so controlling?
Well, no, not really. In any civilized society, there have to be rules. So let's dispense with the illusion that
before HOAs and covenants came along, Americans had total freedom over their property.
Now that doesn't mean I particularly like HOAs and covenants, even if I am the secretary of an HOA. But
let's get to my second point: This is nothing but contract law, plain and simple. Check out the neighborhood before you buy a house there. Find out if it has an HOA. See if it has a covenant, and if so, get a copy and read it. Don't like the covenant? Don't buy the house.
But if you DO buy a house in a neighborhood that charges residents, say, $300 a month in neighborhood assessments, don't come crying to me about the brutal, sadistic HOA that insists you pay it. And if the covenant bans every antenna that isn't connected to an insect, either learn to live with it or try to change it. I'd say the same about ANYTHING purchased on contract, whether it's a car, a boat, a radio, a horse, a lava lamp or a Barbie doll collection. Read the freakin' contract first; don't whine later about the terms or declare your "right" to not pay for what you suddenly don't agree with (but what evidently looked good to you not so long ago).
As for HOA board members being Nazis, Napoleons or whatever other drunk-with-power image you can conjure up, well, sweeping generalizations are about as intelligent as any other form of stereotyping. Personally, I became an HOA secretary because I live on a pond and wanted to make sure the non-ponders didn't pass any rules that would affect my ambience. And, heck, call me crazy, but I also wanted to try to work for the betterment of the neighborhood. Believe it or not, I didn't see this as my long-awaited opportunity to evict little old ladies, keep Vietnam veterans from flying the flag and strut around like Barney Fife.
As for the antenna restrictions in this neighborhood, hey, I utterly loathe them. But ... umm ... gee, isn't that my signature on the contract?
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
There is not much to argue about with a signed contract, However it sure would seem to me that in these troubled times to not allow displaying our flag sure hits me as being way out in left field. Or to get down on a fellow veteran for wanting to display a flag in memorial of his losses,way out. Please tell us what the hell the thinking behind this one is? I can see antennas that are tasteless ( some guys do get carried away) . I think the one poster is right a little class action might make someone think a bit, Another poster sez because a ham is on the board antenna woes disappear but they have a congressional session over a damn tree species.Say what you want but sure sounds like HOA's are a clique.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KA2UUP on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Good for you K7LA!!!!
That is my point, exactly. Why should my neighbors call the shots on stuff I do in MY OWN property???? HOAs, no way, José!!!!
73 de Bert @ KA2UUP
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
You make it sound so easy. Don't but the house if you don't agree with the CCRs. Well, what if I have no choice? If you want a new house in Houston or the suburbs of Houston, you have no choice- HOAs are the rule. So you are telling me, I must live in an OLD pre-1980 house if I want to put a "real" antenna, none of this stealth wire or flag pole antenna BS. I paid over $250k for my home, and I think I should be able to enjoy it. I don't need someone telling me to cut my grass. Before I moved to Houston, I lived in Virgina where my neighborhood did not have a HOA, and 99% of the homes and yards were maintain. I didn't see anyone painting their homes candy apple red or leaving broken down cars on the front lawn. The lawns were maintained, I could put a rose bush without getting a committee's approval, and I had a nice tower behind my house. It would be different if some builders offer neighborhoods w/o HOAs, but not in Houston. Remember in Houston, a new house means HOA. I know you are still saying, just don't buy it. I signed my HOA contract under duress. It would be no different if a company that you wanted to work for told you that you MUST give $1500 a year to the United Way, and you COULD NOT drive a new car or truck if you want the job. I can hear you thinking, I wouldn't take the job, but what if EVERY company had the same policy, except for companies located 70 miles from the city. These companies do not require to to donate your money, d they don't require to wear uniforms so you all look the same, but they don't have the luxuries and amemties of the 21st century. You don't have computers, sacanner, printers and fax machines. Some have AC, but it occasionally goes out because it SO old. You have your nice house and towers in your yard, so which company would you pick? This is the situation that I faced. I had the nice job and the nice car, but I wanted a new house, not one that was built pre-1980. I don't want to have to replace a AC and heating unit, roofs or the plumbing because everything is SO damn OLD. Since some people think HOA have som redeeming qualities, I would compromise. You can have your HOA, but let me have my tower. I would even accept 2 stipulations that stated that a licensed amateur radio operation can have a tower that is no taller than 1/2 of the the longest measurements of his property line, and that there can be no more than 1 tower per 1/2 acre. So if I have a lot that is 70' X 125', my tower height could not exceed 63' (125/2). Where's the ARRL and FCC when you need them? HELP!!!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KF7CG on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The problem with the CCR's and the HOA's is that they often live long beyond their usefulness and are often not there for the reasons specified.
After a great deal of investigation, I find that it is now IMPOSSIBLE for a builder to create a development in certain Ohio counties and cities without incorporating a basic set of deed restrictions. These are things that the municipality would like to regulate but can't because municipalities are forbidden from doing such.
Another thing involved is money. If a city can bully a developer into including an HOA with garbage pickup, street cleaning duties, and snow removal in its care, the city can now use that portion of the city taxes that would go for that activity in the development. CCR's are often backdoor tax increases as well.
The CCR's are also getting more strict by accretion. Eveyone uses a boilerplate set and then adds to it to satisfy elements in the regulatory boards. These additions now become part of the boilerplate, just in case. Therefore, the CCR load is an ever tightening noose.
After telling a couple of realtors in this area that I wanted a new home (new build) that did not have prohibitions against outside antennas. I got a whopping response of don't call us we will call you. This is on homes in the $250K range.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB3EGX on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
I live in a very rural area and have to drive a distance to do anything. I am not an expert on the legal aspects of planned communities or covenants, but we do need to accept the fact that our culture is changing. We rarely find one of the parents staying home with the kids anymore, there is a lot of career hopping, and everone wants more of everything, so ya gotta have 2 incomes. If you mix this crowd with retirees in a planned community, then you've already got a difference in priorities. As for the restrictions, if there weren't any, you'd have neighbors like mine who think a fleet of old school buses in the yard make dandy storage sheds. People inherently have a lack of personal responsibility for their actions and I'm sure this is the reason for the Homeowners Associations and covenants. I suppose the associatons err on the safe side (eg. if you don't ever put up a tribander, then it can't fall on your neighbor's house.) Of course then you could sue the tower manufacturer for buying crappy overseas steel and your neighbor also for threatening to shoot you because it hit his house. You could come out rich and buy land in the country, which is far from a hospital and shopping, and offers little police and fire protection. Only in America are you free to make the choice and blame someone else. 73's Doug
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KE3AD on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The veteran with the flag pole was in suburban Richmond, Va., and he did gain the support of a local radio personality at the time. I will take the country.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9CW on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HOA's and CCR's are a fact of life in many new subdivisions - depending in which area of the country you live. And, when you really think about it, this fact is part of the problem amateur radio faces today. It's really difficult to have an operational shack without an antenna! Stealth and compromise indoor antennas may be the only option for many of us living in areas with restrictions.
Personally, I would never buy a home in a subdivision with a strong HOA or stringest CCR's. This is not so much based from an amateur radio perspective, but one of basic freedoms. I prefer to choose the landscape plantings my XYL and I desire - as well as other aspects of independent homeownership.
As for those who don't wish to pruchase an "old" pre-1980 home, I just don't get it. A 20 year old home is not an old home in my estimation. In basic structural integrity, many older homes are better built than new ones. They utilized old growth timber that is essentially non-existent at this time. And, the workmanship in many cases is superior as well. I've personally obsevered $450K and up homes being built in our area, and the workmanship is sometimes laughable.
Of course, the gestation of HOA's and CCR's were well intended to protect property values, etc. But, they tend to metastasize like cancer in their depth. Basically, it is "to each his (or her) own." If you buy into a restrictive area (whether forced to or not by the realities of the real estate market), you really shouldn't complain. Just be a pragmatist and learn to live with it . . .
Ever thought about a horizontal loop underneath the eaves of some of these monster multi-level homes . . .? It would make an excellent stealth antenna, and a heck of a cloud burner!
Don W9CW
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC9L on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Since when is a house built before 1980 considered "old"? Geez.
I think my house was built in 1928... seems to be OK...
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7KOY on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The argument of "opening a nuclear reactor" vs a veteran flying a flag or not paying extortion monies to these people is absurd.
No one is saying, that if there is a clear and present danger to the community, that the government (elected) should'nt do something. But if a man who works and pays his taxes has to wrestle with these "organizations" just to put up a flag pole we have a serious problem in this country. When people are forced out of their homes because they won't pay "dues" (nothing more than extortion monies.), we again have a serious problem.
I'm sorry, but this really burns me. A veteran who fought for his country can't fly a flag and people being forced out of their homes because he/she won't pay is nothing more than land stealing, pure and simple.
Last I heard, anybody can own a home if he pays his taxes and works hard.
What these organizations do is force their own agendas on owners of private property.
Putting a nuclear reactor in your yard?..no...Enjoy my property without nosy neighbors...yes..
One post said that the "culture" has changed..sure has; we used to respect private property and people minded their own business; now everyone wants to be a self styled police dictating to someone else how they should live.
Thank God in my area we don't have such things as "community organizations". We mind our own business and seem to do just fine.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I was kind of taken aback by the "pre-1980" and "old" house being in the same sentence, also.
My house, which I just bought in November 2000, was built in 1957. It has a new heater/air conditioner, new attic insulation, new pool equipment, new pool heater, new roof, new carpeting, etc. It also came with a homeowner's Warranty, paid for by the Seller, good for one year and good for replacing literally anything that fails, including plumbing, wiring, appliances, pool systems -- anything. And the warranty can be renewed annually (which I just did) for a few hundred dollars, to carry the coverage indefinitely.
I could have locally purchased a "built in 2000" home for the same price, but it would have had CC&Rs.
Tough choice. My new tower looks okay in the backyard of a 45 year old house.
I am sorry for those who honestly feel that they need a "new" home; that must be a burden, and I'm very happy I've never felt it!
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Don, W9CW, you say you don't understand why a person does not want a 20 year old home. Well, just as I don't want a 5 year old car, I don't want a 20 year old home. It may be true that homes built 20 years ago are built better, but it also true that car built 20 years ago were built better. Think about, cars built 20 years ago had a real steel bumper and metal quater panels. Today th car manufactures give you plastic, but they look better and drive better.
This is the third house that I have purchased, and they were all new. When I buy a house car, I always get a warranty with them. I don't want have to deal with the AC unit going out in mid summer, my roof needing replacement or my plumbing being backed up. I prefer NEW even if a older home was built better. I don't want the maintenance headaches that comes with older home and older cars. I know that problems can occur in a new house, but its covered under my warranty. Am I not free to choose? Ops... if I chose to live in a new home in Houston, I MUST choose the HOAs. NO EXECEPTIONS!!!
As for the horizontal loop stealth antenna, I thought about it. Why? The performacne doesn't comapre to a 7 element beam at 60'-- no comparsion! I like to work DX, and I wantto be heard. I don't want to have to fight it out with 100s of stations trying to work rare DX. When I transmit my callsign, I would like to be heard instead of screaming in the mike for hours trying to working a station. No way! I want my tower and beam. Is that too hard to understand? I know, I know, I should have purchased the 20 year old house, but will you explain that to my wife.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N9SIU on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I do not agree with even the concept of a homeowners association. We do however live in a neighborhood that has a HOA and the usual CC&Rs that come with it.
Our builder,when we built our home 12 years ago did not even show us the CC&Rs until closing. After the developer finished the subdivision the HOA sat dormat for almost ten years with no assessments on propeerty for the HOA, meetings or anything. A group later revived the HOA but has found out that CC&Rs that were not enforced may not stand up in court due to lack of enforcement by the HOA.
As for being a ham I put up antennas or anything I want with no problem or hassel from the HOA. I am however respectful of my neighbors with projects in and around my home.
I do highly suggest a good pre-paid legal plan
to help with any legal matters or run-ins with the HOA.
If they have to use an attorney to write you letters or anything like that your defense is paid for and it will cost the HOA more than it will cost you.
I am finding a sponcer for a state bill that would eleminate duplication of restrictions of the CC&Rs that are already enforced by city ordinances. At times these HOAs have more restrictions than in other parts of the city. It should be the same for all property owners since our tax money goes for the same city services.
Good luck to all in dealing with these self appointed do-gooders.
73
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA1ZNJ: If you're in Houston, update the FCC data base, it says you're in New Hampshire.
Not to be argumentative, since there's no point, and nobody will win or lose this, but:
You're in your third house. I'm in my 14th, having purchased the first in 1973 at the ripe old age of 21. I've bought "old" and "new" and everything in between, from coast to coast. What I've learned:
-Age of the home means very little. Kind of like age of an airplane. It's not when it was built, it's how many hours it's logged that determines its value.
-Home warrantees, covering virtually anything that can possibly fail in or around a home, are available for new homes, old homes, and in between homes. The home warranty service companies couldn't care less what the age of the house is, the annual warranty cost is the same. Like life insurance companies, they're just playing the odds.
-Nice things about older homes ("resales") include that often times, all the bugs have been worked out, the lawns and gardens have been planted, the trees have matured and look nice (and provide some shade), and the neighbors will nearly always come over to say "hi" and welcome to the neighborhood. They will also know more about the home you just bought than you do, which is valuable information.
-Even better, here in California where I live, is that older homes have passed muster when it comes to earthquake survivability. With a new home, a buyer has no idea what will happen with that first 6.8 earthquake. If the home's already been through a few (or several) and is structurally sound, it will last through many more, which is a comforting feeling. This is because home survivability has everything to do with the earth beneath the structure and not much at all to do with age of the materials used.
I could go on and on with what I've learned having bought 14 and sold 13 houses, but it won't convince anyone who's set on buying "new." Having done it three (of my 14) times, I won't do it, ever again.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
WB2WIK, Steve, earthquakes aren't a problem in Houston, but HOAs. I looked into buying an older home. The average home in the neighborhood was selling for $175,000, but to remodel the kitchen, baths, add a new roof, and AC unit would have cost another $65k. The owner was would accept 160k. That would have been $225k for a 28 year old house that I probably could only sell for about $180K. That's not a good investment. I can't afford a lost like that, so I opted for the new house with the HOA. Besides the XYL wanted the new house.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Yep I will keep my house too. It was first built in 1942 burned in 1951 and rebuilt again in
1955, When we purchased it we gutted it out added insulation new drywall, windows and doors.
rewired it, had the plumbing redone, Installed AC and on and on. It didnt cost me the over inflated
builders price and I don't have some jackal parasite coming up to me everymonth for HOA fee's.
Take heart some of you yuppies out there, If need be you could all end up being drafted and
maybe your honeys or familys would like to display the flag only they won't be able to due to
all the restrictions. You guys with the home protection warr's I can tell you from experience most of them
are pretty good but a few try to dodge out of payment for any little excuse. I won't mention names
but one of the larger companies approached me and asked if I would be interested in being a
service provider for them. The first two claims went thru no problem then others started getting turned
down even though they were identical to others. One of the people from that company said to me
on the telephone that my responsibility to their company was to try and find faults with the home
owners claim but not to worrry I would be paid for the service checkout. Needless to say we quickly
parted company after that.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I've had nothing but very positive experience, myself, with the home warranty services. They have paid for a new dishwasher, a new kitchen cooktop, a new gas range, a new pool pump and miscellaneous plumbing calls over a period of several years, and all were settled in just a day or two.
As for house values, that's such a huge variable, and so location dependent, that it's difficult to comment. Most places I've lived, a "resale" home will cost more than a "new" one of equivalent size and neighborhood. I'm sure this is because most of the resales have value-added features that the new ones don't have (yet). When I've purchased new homes, I've had to do landscaping including tree plantings, often to the tune of $15 or $20K in the first year. Then, I've also installed swimming pools -- normally about $50K for the excavation, pool, filter & heater, if there's not a lot of decking involved. But once, it cost $85K because there was a great deal of decking required. And of course that whole job, which often takes a month or so to complete, makes a huge mess.
So, it is reasonable that a resale, with great landscaping, trees, pool, etc, should cost $75K - $100K more than a similar "new" house, around here, and they usually do. It's the cost of "instant gratification." Whether a house appreciates in value, and by how much, is based on local real estate market trends and is very much beyond the control of any homeowner. Luckily, I've never lost money on a house, and in a few cases enjoyed more than 50% value appreciation in less than five years.
But the main reason, regardless of value, that I'll stick with the older homes is to avoid CC&Rs.
Interestingly, the most elegant and expensive housing found nearly anywhere will carry no CC&Rs at all, since the rich and famous do not like to be told what they cannot do. Here in Beverly Hills and Bel Air, CA, for example, in neighborhoods where the median house costs $3 Million, there are very few rules.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8EMR on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Boy of Boy, What a bunch of materialistic people some of you are. I dont want to live in a 20 year
old home or drive a five year old car.
I live in a 105 year old farm house and drive a 10 year old car with 185K miles on it.
I see no reason I should be forced to live a life based on what other around me are doing.
I dont see a reason to water the grass to make it green and to make the neighbors happy.
I dont see a reason to ask some commitee if I can plant a tree on my property, put up a swing
set or change the color of my front door. Its NONE of their business.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
N8EMR, aren't most hams materialistic in nature? Who doesn't want the newest rig with all the bells and whistles, a nice tall tower and beam or quad antenna. I am not trying to keep up with the Jones or impress my neighbors, but I do have to please my XYL. She and I jut like a new house, and we usually buy a new car every 4 years, but I do have a boat that is 12 years old. Does that count?
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KM5LO on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
After moving to Texas from North Idaho, it was pretty evident that getting a house in a desirable neighborhood, within a good school district, etc. I would have to "bite the bullet" and build a house in a Deed Restricted area. CCR's do have good points about them, the main problem I have seen, are the people in charge of the Association. Many of them have the "If I had run the company..." mentality.
When I first moved in, I got to know my neighbors, and none of them seemed to care about radio, and knew nothing of the Amateur Service (remember at these times, it is not, <repeat> NOT a hobby) and many of them took a polite interest in my activities. Granted I did use stealth antennas, and kept the power under 600W.
My next step was to get involved with the H.O.A. (Home Owners Association) to circumvent the ego-maniacs running the "concentration camp," and got involved with the Architectural Planning guys, and slowly let them in on the radio services, and assured them this wasn't CB. The way you approach Associations is very important, for some reason they forget that you also have a vested interest in the community, just remember, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
I will end this with my antenna "inventory" I have a 10M Phased array, 20M vert., 40M dipole, Hustler 5BTV on a tilt over base, and 160M Isotron "bird perch" (if anyone asks). If I can do it, so can you!
73 and may the sun spots be with you!
John, KM5LO
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
Anonymous post on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
For me this issue is a no brainer. I will never enter into a contract that allows moron neighbors to control my affairs. PERIOD. An individual can't fight and win against these jackasses. They have the law on their side.
The answer is to let people who are too stupid to know what they are doing to buy into these assns.
There are plenty of non controlled houses in this country. Buy one of these and don't waste time with this no win issue.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KB9RXG on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I guess I'm just old fashioned. I've always thought that a man's home was his little corner of the world where his decisions were law. If he wants to put in a simi-circular driveway it's his choice. If he wants to put up a tree house for the kids, no sweat. All of the little things like adding on to your home, choosing what color to paint it, what kind of mail box to have, are suppose to be YOUR choice. What needs to happen is we all need to get on the lawmakers cases and get a law passed that prohibits HOA's and CC&R's from intruding into matters that are the right of the individual homeowner to make. So long as the garbage is picked up and junk cars aren't parked on the lawn they should be kept out of it.
Ok, to those who say don't buy. Some people simply don't have a choice. They want a new home but either don't want to live out in the sticks, can't justify commute times of an hour or more, or whatever the reason. Question: Should people be penalized for a lack of ability to move to a non CC&R/HOA community? It would appear to me that although the contracts were signed, it was under duress. No signature, no house. Pretty powerful coersion if you ask me and very little truly free choice.
Yep, we are definately living in the end times. Conditioning to accept whatever is fed to you is going quite well. Take what we dish out and be happy we didn't decide to dump on you. Stand up for yourselves folks before even that ability is taken from you.
'73'
Darren
KB9RXG
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N0TONE on April 30, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
W4NLS (I think) wrote:
"...While I don't
think any of us would be upset by a flag pole or 100'
tower with a tri-bander at the top, we might be upset
by a fluorescent pink house (peeling, of course) with
a sand pit for a yard and a Yugo up on blocks out
front. Would you like to see your house go from
$150,000 to $120,000 because of the neighborhood? "
Ah, you got the logic backwards. You seem to be thinking of your house as an investment. If THAT'S what you want it to be, then what you want to do is buy low and sell high! What's low? Low is the neighborhood where there are houses with peeling fluorescent pink paint and cars up on blocks. Where's your sense of creativity?
About five years ago, I bought into exactly that kind of neighborhood. My own house was a mottled combination of purple, green, brown and chalky yellow. Much of this has nothing to do with poor taste so much as homes occupied by 75 year olds with cataracts, who really can't tell color or condition. I know - I've been there. Cataract surgery is amazing.
So I moved in, and began to work on the house. I cleared out the overgrowth, and painted the front a neutral color. I had neighbors coming up to me, and telling me how amazed they were at the difference. I told them it was easy and cheap, and told them who I bought the paint from, etc. In a few cases, I showed them how to use shovels and picks and how to weed their yards. After only one year, all houses except one looked much better. That one was a rental. The bunch of us got together and decided to make an offer. We proposed to the landlord that if he paid for all the materials and a landscaping crew, we would paint the house free. To get that $300 worth of free labor, he did exactly that. And when he was done, he was able to double the rent, which meant the new renters actually care and are keeping the place up.
I NEVER saw this sort of collaboration work properly in a neighborhood with an HOA. With an HOA, people don't help each other, they simply threaten with lawsuits to get others to "do something".
In my last neighborhood with an HOA, I got letters about a lot of things. We planted wildflowers instead of grass in the front. Prettier, lower maintenance, and helped with our grassmold allergies. We got complaint letters and threats to be sued. It wasn't against the HOA rules, but they can ask you to do anything.
We also got complaint letters about my car. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my car. It happens to be a 1961 Buick. It is an "old" color - the funky beige that Buick used. It's not a classic, therefore not museum shiny. The paint is shiny like the average 5 year old Toyota, and has about the same number of parking lot dings. The convertible top is brand new and it's mechanically perfect. The complaint letters alleged that I had a "run down wreck in front of the house". Baloney! The real thing they wanted was for every house to have a Lexus in front of it, that's all.
As you can see, HOAs aren't for me. And, if you buy into a neighorhood that has one, hoping that you'll "preserve" your investment, be warned that you are buying your investment at the peak. The only appreciate you'll get is market appreciation; there is no built-in condition appreciation to be had.
Oh, and where I live, $150k will only buy you the dream of a house. Entry fee for 900 square feet that needs major structural repairs, on 3,000 square feet of land, is about $350k. And this ISN'T Silicon Valley...
AM
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by G3RZP on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
In some ways, hams don't help themselves. When the tornado or the earthquake or the brush fire or the hurricane or the flood come along, ARES is out there helping everyone. It would give the message in a better fashion if second time around, communities not allowing ham radio antennas didn't get ham radio support in emergencies - first time is to show them how good hams are.
So if the HOA was told 'Come a disaster on your 2000+ home estate, you're on your own', and ARES and REACT backed up hams by staying out, it might help.
Hard hearted? Sure. Serve 'em right.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W5KAP on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I would have been content to stay silent but this topic hits a nerve. I have lived in an area with a HOA. I understand fully the concept of trying to maintain property values by ensuring poeple don't live like pigs. And, if you move into an area that has an HOA, don't complain. You chose it freely. However, having said that, I am fundamentally opposed to HOA's. IF I am spending my money, on my home, no one, and I mean no one, should be able to tell me what I can and cannot do with it. In San Antonio we have had a couple nearly dragged to court because they painted their garage door with an American flag. Most of the homeowners approved but this type of display was specifically denied by the covenants. What a sad world we live in when a bunch of folks get such a rush from the power of office that hey summarily forget common sense.
Kenn W5KAP
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
W5KAP, Yes I will complain. I did not sign the HOA contract freely. It was under duress! I was told at closing, if I didn't sign, I COULD NOT buy the house. Case closed!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA1ZNJ, the duress you experienced is identical to that one feels when applying for a driver's license with the understanding that automatically registers you as a prospective juror (like it or not), or many other situations. In order to fulfill one goal, you willingly sacrifice some freedoms.
The difference with home buying is that there are other options you simply chose not to exercise.
From my experience in discussing this issue with developers, it appears that the compelling argument for "standardization" (CC&Rs) is that it makes their bank loans go through with less potential restrictions. Remember, the developers are working with borrowed money, often tens of millions of dollars or more, and the easier they can secure loans for development, the better they like it.
It is possible virtually everywhere to buy land from private parties and build a home on that land without any encumbrances. CC&Rs are deed restrictions put in place by developers, not by governments, and are most easily avoided by not dealing with the developers.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8EMR on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Some apparently are but I dont need the latest and greatest. While I did get a new 706 this year, it replaced a 12 year old radio. As for antennas, while I have 5 acres to do what I please, I find a dipole works fine for HF and a dual band vertical for VHF/UHF work. Pleasing the XYL is good, but have you attempt to examine why you need to have a new home and a new car every 4 years. Is it pride, ego, need to impress someone else.
I always find it interesting how some people will spend so much money to impress people they dont even like.
N8EMR, aren't most hams materialistic in nature? Who doesn't want the newest rig
with all the bells and whistles, a nice tall tower and beam or quad antenna. I am not
trying to keep up with the Jones or impress my neighbors, but I do have to please
my XYL. She and I jut like a new house, and we usually buy a new car every 4
years, but I do have a boat that is 12 years old. Does that count?
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
N8EMR et al:
Exactly. We all tend to do what is important to each of us. If having a new car every four years and a new house with each move is important, then that's that. But in most cases, with the exception of the rich & famous, we must be prepared to sacrifice some things to achieve others.
In my case, my favorite hobby of 37 years is a bit more important than the age of the house I live in. A house is bits of wood, brick and plaster. A home is what you make it.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WB2WIK, I can agree with your comments, but I don't want to have to drive over an hour to get to and from work. I also like the amenities that the city offers. I know I could have purchase land in the country and built a house, but I would lose all those
conveniences like a short drive to the work, good schools with bus service for my kids, a Wal-Mart on every corner, and easy access to a hospital.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
N8EMR, I don't buy new thinks to impress anyone, and its not a ego booster. It's a decision that I made. No, I don't need a new car every 4 years, but I choose to buy one every four years. New cars drive better, and I usually don't have to worry about them having mechanical issues. I don't need a top of the line rig and a benm and tower, but I choose to buy them. I know it is a waste of money since most consumer goods depreciate, but life is too short not to enjoy it. No, I am not wealthy, but I made some very good investments in the last 10 years that allow me to do the things I want to do and to buy the thing I want within reason. If you choose to drive an older car, or you are content with a wire antenna, great. That's what America is about --freedom to choose, but in Houston you don't get a choice. If you want a new house in a new subdivsion, you MUST take the CCRs and HOA with it.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Yep.
Here's what I just did (took 10 mins, during lunchtime):
http://www.houston.about.com/cs/realestate/
Chronicle Classifieds, 500 listings, logged on.
Called ten agents posting homes for sale < $400K (most are).
Stated requirements: Must be within or adjacent to I-45/Rt. 8 Loop, within 30 mins of Bush Int'l Airport and also within 30 mins of the Compaq plant (just as a reference, I don't know the city that well). Cannot have any deed restrictions (CC&Rs) at all, that is unacceptable. Must be new construction or built since 1995.
Out of the ten listings, six met the criteria.
Of course, I have no idea what you're actually looking for (or what you looked for), number of bedrooms, lot size, etc. Only guessing. But there are relatively new homes without CC&R's within the I-45 loop, which as far as I know completely surrounds Houston.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
WB2WIK/6, Those are listing for used homes. When I say new, I mean a house that hasn't been built, and unless you been to Houston, you probably don't know that it's a large city. During rush hour traffic, getting from side of town to the other can take 90 minutes or longer. Now call as the same realtors and inquire about new subdivisions in Houston under $300k that don't have HOA and CCRs.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W2ZR on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
These comments are all very interesting. Here in Boca Raton, Florida, it is very difficult to avoid homeowner's associations. These are not all cookie cutter homes either. Most of the communities are made up of custom homes, each one different from the next. The $150,000 price tag being tossed around might buy you a 1/5 acre lot but not if it's on a lake. There are two ways to avoid HOA's here. You can buy a dump along the railroad tracks or you can buy a home on the beach for several million dollars. Everything in between is within the boundaries of a HOA.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by AC0X on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA1ZNJ, why are you SO hung up on a "BRAND NEW" house? You're turning your nose up at houses built only 7 years ago (1995)! Do you have VERY specific building requirements, or is it just (as you say) you CHOOSE to live in a BRAND NEW house within an hour from downtown Houston (and please no condescending comments on how we don't know Houston is a big city and that it take 90 minutes to get across town. That's life in most big cities). Well, if you choose that, then you choose to not have an antenna, and since you've chosen, you have no right to complain.
What is the big appeal of BRAND NEW house anyway? Developers try to whip together houses as quickly as they can now, with a result a BIG discrepencies in quality. With a house that's already a few years old, you have a house that's JUST as "new", but it's problems have already surfaced. And PLEASE don't try to tell us that these new neighborhoods are somehow "safer". People move in and out of these places so fast that no one knows whether the van next door belongs there or is trying to rob the place. And PLEASE don't try and tell us that schools are better in these "new neighborhoods". A lot of new houses mean new schools, which means skyrocketing property taxes, which means local people VOTE DOWN any property tax increase they possibly can, which means all these newly built schools have to get by on less money. This hardly is condusive to "better schools".
I think you bought a big pretty new house in a big pretty new neighborhood that had a big pretty new garage to fit your big pretty new SUV, all to impress your big petty.. errr pretty friends, and now you regret sacrificing your hobby. Well, as you say, you CHOSE.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 1, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
AC0X, Actually, I have 3 garages-- one for my SUV, one for my wife's SUV, and one for my BMW. My petty ... errr pretty friends really like my home, but most of them have larger homes than I do, but they like my 12 year old boat. Yes, my neighborhood is pretty, but it would look better if I had a tower rising just above the tree line. As for the schools, we have some excellent schools in my area. Most of the high schools in this area would rival any small community college campus. When high schools are built in my area, they include Olympic size swimming pools and first class football stadiums. Yes we pay VERY HIGH property taxes (about $3.65 per $100), and when the school board wants more money, they just raise the rate. They don't have to wait for the people to vote for it. I guess it another one of my freedoms I gave up. Although I have CCRs, I still get on the air. I have a vertical and a 80 meter window installed, and I work DX regularly, but it doesn't compare to my beam and tower I use to use. That reminds me, I will be glad when Ten-Tec start selling the Orion rig, so I can replace my 8 year old TS-950SDX. Do you think my petty ham friends will be impressed? I really enjoy ham radio, but it is just a hobby, so I don't let it dictate my life. I have other hobbies that are just as fun, and the HOA can't interfere with my enjoyment when I do them. Just because I was forced to sign the HOA contract doesn't mean I can't complain. And complain I will!!!
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9IND on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
-- When people are forced out of their homes because they
won't pay "dues" (nothing more than extortion monies.), we again have a
serious problem.
I'm sorry, but this really burns me. A veteran who fought for his country
can't fly a flag and people being forced out of their homes because
he/she won't pay is nothing more than land stealing, pure and simple.
You're missing the point. It's not extortion when you VOLUNTARILY sign a contract in which you pledge, among other things, to pay a certain amount of neighborhood dues every month.
It's like any other contract -- stop paying for your new car and you'll have it taken away from you. Stop paying for your boat and you won't be sailing much longer. Stop paying rent on your apartment and you'll get kicked out of it. But how the heck is any of this "extortion" or "car/boat/apartment stealing"?
Regardless of whether you're a veteran, an ex-hippie or the president of General Motors, when you sign a contract and renege on the terms of that contract, you set yourself up to lose whatever it is you're attempting to rent or buy.
Look, if you think covenants, HOAs and neighborhood dues are stupid and/or unfair ... well, in many cases they are. But hey, I happen to think that rent-to-own contracts are stupid, too. So guess what -- I don't sign such contracts. More to the point, I don't sign such contracts and then complain later that having to make the monthly payments is "extortion."
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K0RKS on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
It is beyond me to understand why one would spend a hundred + thousand for a home, and live like an apartment. Can't do this, Can't have that. Fellow Hams sneaking around to put a chunk of wire. ON their own property!!!!! Makes me angry every time I hear a Fellow ham, Stuck in a 30 or 60 yr. deal. Complaining about nosey neighbors and restrictions. Life's to short If I pay that kind of money for a house they better be thanking me!!!!My opinion.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
W9IND, I agree with you. It's not extortion when you VOLUNTARILY sign a contract in which you pledge, among other things, to pay a certain amount of neighborhood dues every month, but it is coercion and duress. In my area, all new home subdvisions have HOAs. You can't avoid them. Although I have a HOA, the NAZI committee isn't as anal as other HOAs. I have a friend whose HOA is real pain in the ##$!. Last summer I let him use my home in NH for 2 weeks. Since he was out of town, he was unable to cut his grass, so the NAZI HOA committee felt that he was not conforming to the standards of the neighborhood and hired a lawn company to cut his grass. When he got home, he received a bill for $125.00 for lawn services. He protested, but he was told he had to pay, and if he did not pay, the HOA would sue him. In his HOA agreement, it even states that if the HOA is forced to sue a homeowner to resolve CC&R issues, that homeowner was responsible for the HOA's legal bill whether he/she win or lose.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Yep, the key issue is whether it's worth the aggravation to "buy new," and be locked into restrictions. As a Libertarian at heart, I could never do that. The "new house smell" is actually a bad stink, when it means signing away all rights of individuality.
Around these parts, $350K barely buys the garage without the house, but that's not the point. I could no more volunteer to live under dictatorship in homeowning than in government. If I wanted dictatorship, I'd move to Cuba. Hey, at least then I'd have that Caribbean QTH I always wanted!
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Lots of good arguements here. It makes me glad I am not a materialist and crowd follower. I really feel for those who are stuck into these agreements because they did not have a choice. Although I still don't see what the hell the issue is with displaying the U.S. flag, sounds like a bunch of commie's to me. I am always reminded of the old saying " If it looks like crap, smells like crap, and fells like crap then it is crap". One of you guys on these HOA boards please want to explain why the flag cannot be displayed in your area??????????????? Wondering american minds really want to know.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA1ZNJ: Point of reference, I've been to Houston about two dozen times. It's surely a city. Compared to Los Angeles, where I live, it's not quite a "big" city, but that's a relative term. (L.A. is over 800 square miles and 4 million people. What's Houston?)
As a supplier to Compaq, I've taken the ride from the Airport (Bush International) to their facilities many times, in rush hour traffic. Not great, but not bad. About average for a city.
I enjoyed the comment about "a Wal-Mart on every corner." Is that considered an advantage? Good grief. Here in L.A., we successfully lobbied to keep Wal-Mart out for more than 20 years. But, we finally lost the battle and the first one was built in 2000. Sigh.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W9IND on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WA1ZNJ (and others), I would never presume to assert that every ham in every city has an easy time when it comes to finding new homes without HOAs. And HOA agreements (and practices) like the ones you cited are exactly why all associations get a bad name. Again, I'm no particular fan of HOAs and covenants, but since I signed on with a neighborhood that has an HOA and a covenant, I'm simply trying to make the best of things. Your point clearly illustrates why it's crucial to read every bit of fine print before signing on the dotted line and buying a new home. Caveat emptor indeed.
W8OB, I have no idea why any HOA would prohibit displaying the flag, but the one I'm in has no such idiotic rule (although it does have an idiotic rule about antennas). I became secretary of my HOA in hopes of keeping tabs on the board's decisions and hopefully contributing some sanity to the process, although in all fairness, my HOA has never been heavy-handed. Plus, I think our homeowners' dues - about $40 a year - hardly put an unfair squeeze on anybody.
I'm not belittling people who find themselves in sudden financial straits through no fault of their own, but more than likely, the residents who don't pay their annual dues have gone to the movies, rented videos, gone to ball games and purchased items other than necessities at least a few times during the past 12 months. And since our common area has to be mowed and the ponds have to be treated, I have no sympathy for anyone who refuses to pay (other than the hardship cases I mentioned).
Who knows, maybe by working from the inside, I can convince my association to relax its stance on antennas. If not, there's always Mayflower.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
WB2WIK.. The city of Houston is about 617 square miles, and the population is 2.2 million; but the Houston area has the second lowest living cost for the top 50 largest cities in the US. In Houston or the surrounding area, you can buy a new 3000 square foot brick home for about $175K -275k depending on the loaction in the city, and you even get a HOA as a free gift.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N0TONE on May 2, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Talk about extremist wording.
Someone claims they signed the HOA agreement "under duress" because he didn't get to see it until a few minutes before closing. Right. Along with the other 50 papers that you never saw until you showed up at closing. Do you think you should be able to "opt out" of obeying the other papers, like the one you signed that says "I agree to pay my property taxes" and "I agree to keep hazard insurance on the home" and "I agree to pay this much interest"? That's just moronic.
I HAVE walked away from a house because of CC&Rs. I made it a point repeatedly to the real estate agent that I would not buy a house with CC&Rs. She kept saying she'd find one with no CC&Rs. She found one, I liked it, I bid, we went to close. The CC&Rs showed up. I said no dice. She said, "But they're very reasonable". I re-iterated that when I said "NO CC&Rs, I meant NONE, and you and I had this conversation many times." She exclaimed that you can never buy a house without CC&Rs. I walked out of the closing. I found a new real estate agent the next day and within two weeks we found a house only two blocks away with NO CC&Rs.
You can ALWAYS find a house without them. If you want a brand new house without them, you probably need to buy the land yourself, then have a contractor build on it. But you can do it.
The guy who had the long list of MUST HAVEs - 3 garages for new SUVs, pools, great schools, close to Wal-Mart (Plastic City, we call it), etc...you must know the longer the list of MUST HAVES that you build, the longer the list of CAN'T HAVES gets, and the longer your STUCK WITH list gets.
I face that every time I want another car. I am steadfastly set on having manual transmissions in a four door sedan that's somewhat upscale - no entry level rattly junk cars for me. Well, guess what. My list of MUST HAVES is long enough that my list of CAN'T HAVES now includes American Cars. I'd love to own an American Car, but once my list includes manual, four doors, and at least midsize, I'm banished from American dealerships. So I have a choice to make. If I really want an American Car, I have to give up something on my MUST HAVE list.
Like with the HOA. In most big cities, you CAN NOT have a never-lived in house, built by a developer, close to shopping, etc, and not have an HOA. Something on your MUST HAVE list has to be eliminated if you want to get "HOA" off of your STUCK WITH list. If I understand your desires properly, I think you'd be best served by seeking an independent contractor and your own spot of land. I've been to Houston, and there are unfilled spaces here and there.
I still muse over those who think they get better reliability out of new cars or homes. I buy cars at 5-10 years old, and experience fewer breakdowns and far less costly maintenance than my colleagues with newer cars. And generally, my cars are better, too, because I don't get stuck with all that froo-froo crap like cupholders and power seats, instead the money went into engine power and nice controlled shock absorbers. The homes I've had where I've had the most repairman calls have always been the new ones. I once asked a builder what his warranty costs were and he said 10%. Anybody who's paid any attention to QA understands what this means - the customer IS the QA department; the builder did NONE of it.
AM
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K6SDW on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Didn't see the 20/20 report, but I've seen this CC&R crap coming for more than 20 years and it's getting worse....I totally agree with the guy who wrote this isn't a ham-radio fight, it's a homeowner's property rights fight!!! We'll always have some government agency looking over our shoulder, but to hell with HOA's and those that run them!!! JUST SAY NO TO CC&R's and the jerks that sit on these boards...enuf said........73
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by INITZERO on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
> One of you guys on these HOA boards please want to
> explain why the flag cannot be displayed
W8OB,
As secretary of my HOA, I can say that we allow flags
that hang off your front porch without any paperwork.
No big deal. I have one as do several of my neighbors.
The only time we've had to say 'woah' is when someone
wanted to put up up a 35-foot flagpole just 22 feet
from his neighbor's house. Living in Florida, we get
our fair share of hurricanes and high winds.
The neighbor in the fall zone requested that we deny
the request as it stood. We had to agree. The flag
guy shortened the pole to 30 feet and shifted it a
few feet closer to the center of his front yard. We
also asked that he double-check the amount of cement
he was using on the base -- one of the folks on the
board is a contractor and didn't think there was
nearly enough for the estimated wind load.
The flag is up, it looks good and everyone is happy.
Had the board approved a flag pole that was known to
be a potential hazard, the HOA could have been
targeted for legal action down the road. If the HOA
lost, the payment wouldn't have come just from those
on the board. It would have been paid by members of
the entire association through a special assessment.
Besides that, there would have been a bit of hostility
between those two neighbors. As it is, with the HOA
acting as a mediator, each got what was wanted.
Matt (k4mls)
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
The "just say no to CC&Rs" comment from K6SDW was right on.
I completely agree it can be difficult to impossibe to find "new" and affordable housing devoid of restrictions, in which case the obvious thing to do is simply not buy a "new" house.
If all of us, and our friends, families, coworkers -- everyone we know -- all boycotted CC&R housing, the restrictions would disappear far more quickly than they came into being. With no customers, something would have to change.
As long as we are such big idiots as to buy such homes, under duress or otherwise, we can continue to blame the guy in the mirror.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7KOY on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
INETZERO.."As secretary of my HOA, I can say that we allow flags
that hang off your front porch without any paperwork.
No big deal. I have one as do several of my neighbors."
Since it it his property, let me be the first to say we appreciate you allow him to flag a flag on HIS front porch without paperwork. Does this sound like a system gone mad or what?
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB3EGX on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I can only add to my original comments by saying again, that our culture is evolving and changing. I would suspect there is a large turnover of residents in planned communities. Good or bad, I've had the same neigbors for 20 years and while you can't control who your neighbors will be, the HOA can specify what they will or won't do. I personally enjoy living in the country with out restrictions, but can you imagine "open trash burning" being allowed in areas where city planners and developers are trying to pack as many people into the available real esate as possible ?? Again...people are inherently irresponsible and need to be on some type of a leash for the sake of the majority and their own protection. If you want to talk about "rights"......consider that maybe "speed limits" are an infringement on your right to drive as fast as you want, and also not allowing deer hunting within safe distances of houses......then think of the most irresponsible person you know and realize that he is going to have to make very responsible decisions at 100 mph. and those same people "accidently" shot 2 bullets thru my neighbor's house while hunting. The HOA's need to be realistic and egoless, although they do have a purpose in an ever growing society.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Interesting point of view, EGX, but I couldn't disagree more.
If you believe in this sort of thing, the ten laws carved in stone and carried by Moses are pretty much the only ones we need. Mankind has been clarifying and amending those for thousands of years, but it really boils down to those ten.
Open refuse burning, etc, if unsafe for the environment, has already been legislated as unlawful, it surely doesn't require an HOA to regulate this. Ditto hunting restrictions, etc. There are laws on the books for these things, as there are for speeding, rape and manslaughter. Don't need an HOA for those, either.
The position that mankind is naturally irresponsible is ludicrous. It must be difficult to live feeling this way.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N0XAS on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Hrmm... OK, and what do you think the chances are of getting your friends, family and coworkers to eliminate 70 to 90% of the places they would want to live as possible places to buy a house? And what makes you think hams, even with friends, family and coworkers, would make up enough of the population for builders to even care about? Get serious. When you live with sheep the world smells like wool.
We just bought a house last September. When we started looking I swore, "No covenants. Gotta have my antennas". Well, that darned reality thing keeps just popping right up. Around here, you have two choices... live in an older neighborhood or out in the boonies, well away from the schools we *know* are where we want our kids (we are very much up to speed on curriculum and the school boards), or buy in a neighborhood with covenants in place. The house we wanted is, unfortunately, in a neighborhood with covenants still in place. Too bad, so sad, can't put up a tower and tribander - not that the XYL would tolerate that anyway. What the hell, the covenant expires in another 10 or 15 years and I can do what I want. Until then I'll bet I can talk my neighbors into tolerating my modest antenna plans; if not, it's time to get creative.
Our 'new' house was built 11-12 years ago, the old one was built in '71. I don't know about other areas, but here it would have cost me easily $50K more to have an equivalent house built new - would be nice to be able to run all my own Cat5 and coax, but that's life. I also didn't want a 30 or 45 minute commute to work in the morning. It's just the choices you make. Sometimes you can't have everything and you have to compromise - so compromise, or don't, but don't whine and gripe and expect the whole world to rise up in arms to defend your "right" to do exactly what you please, neighbors be damned. Life doesn't work that way, you have to choose your compromises. Don't want restrictions? Move to the country. Don't want to ever see a Wal-Mart again? Hey, there's plenty of cheap land in Alaska and New Mexico. That's too hot, too cold or too remote for you? Well, tough nuts. I wanted to be a race car driver, fighter pilot or Playboy photographer, too. I wanted a nice house, wife & kids too. Something's got to give, you don't always get everything exactly your way.
So meet with the HOA, petition your neighbors, buy some steaks to spread around, mow their lawns, dial back your proposed aluminum farm a little, buy a house in the sticks, move closer to downtown, whatever does it for you. Just don't whine and complain here and expect everybody to tell you how tough you've got it.
As for the HOA... man, I don't know where you guys find these people. We went to our first annual meeting, and when some poor dope complained about his neighbor's tarp-covered boat or whatever (turns out it's owned by a board member), they pretty much said they don't have the budget or the will to enforce the restrictions, you'd have to hire a lawyer & sue your neighbor. Music to my ears! 8-) Maybe things won't be as bad as I thought.
73 & have a Zoloft,
Dale
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Well I am certainly happy to see some HOA's are using common sense, I guess there may be a few out there who are just interested in keeping the appearance of the homes up, Look I can understand this as there are people out there who don't care, example as one poster said his neighbors idea of a storage shed was a old school bus parked out front. I don't mean this as a attack on the last poster when he said buy your neighbors a steak etc but I think its a sad day in America when you pay 300-500k or more for a house and have to kiss everyone's ass just to string a wire or pick your own color of paint.I agree the way to fight this is to stay away from buying in the area's that have these restrictions. Here a local builder several years ago built 12 houses in a development, he attempted to impose restrictions in this area but had to abandon that when no one would buy due to his rules. We usually have a choice of what we can do but humans like electricty tend to follow the path of least resistance or inconvience whatever the case may be. By the way for what its worth in this area of Michigan for 200k you can have a 4000 sq ft house on 40 or more acres in a very secluded area, we have not had the over population and the resulting on demand inflated pricing here (although we have not had any new industry move in in ages and the ones here are going under slow but sure). Average houses in the city run from 55k up to 110k, slightly more in the burbs.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K4LYP on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
HOA's are like Lawyers and Politicians.
You only need them when something needs to be done!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
For N0XAS:
I'm still trying to get over the thought that builders in Omaha think homes there are in so much demand, that's really funny. Is that supposed to be the new yuppie haven or something? Holy mackeral.
As for the world smelling like wool, I'd counter by asking, "Who's the sheep?" You're the one who backed down and bought a home with covenants, not me. I'm the wolf, and when I get hungry, the sheep are in trouble.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7KOY on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WB2WIK..you have a point with the term "sheep".
We have a whole elected government including police etc. who can enforce law.
Why anybody would sign away their rights is, as any 1st year law student would say. "dumb".
You've not only bypassed any property rights you may have had, but put yourself at the mercy of a "non-government" authority, who can, at their whim and personal prejudices, screw with you until you move, loose your house or spend alot of money fighting them.
The more I see whats happening now and look back at a time when people stood their ground, the more the term sheep is discriptive.
Again..."dumb" thing to do.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by W8OB on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Oh Yeah you last two guys hit the nail right on the head. Sheep are the reason that so many wonderfull
old homes in the cities are now dumps. Yep a few pieces of rif-raf move in and you sheep head out for greener pastures. Didn't anybody ever teach you guys that pests and rodents will not stay where they are not wanted? When I was living in Detroit and Saginaw I lived in a stable neighborhood, a few of the homeowners passed away, their homes were sold to slumlords and real trash started to move into the neighborhood.The existing people living there stood their ground and even returned physical threats, the result the trash moved out pronto. You might as well learn right now in this world there is always somebody going to try and take advantage of you, You alone control the outcome. If you think because you live in a protected community your gonna be safe , better think again. Its very simple, laws are made to protect the guilty if you fight back most your gonna get is a slap on the wrist same as the bad boys get. I myself never have much trouble, I don't follow the crowd, keep up with the Jones, kiss any butt and
never learned to jump through hoops on command. Yep I know this is getting a little off the topic but hey lets examine the reasons why things are today as they are!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K0ABE on May 3, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Hey, let me throw some wood on this fire. Check out this web site, it was featured on Tech TV's "The Screen Savers" http://www.knology.net/~carlos/redneck.htm And this neighborhood has a CC&R. Maybe that "thing" in his back yard was supposed to be a verticle array. My wife's family has this strange hobby, they like to look at new housing and houses for sale. Kind of something to do on their Sunday drive. Well, I got into this hobby by marrage so to speak. When I go to a new subdivision I always say I'm a HAM and want to put up a "modest" 60 foot tower. If the person in the display says there's a CC&R I tell the wife and in-laws "you guys can look here if you want, I'm going to the car to play with my radio. I won't live here." This is real troubling to the agent especilly after he/she gave the lecture on how great the houses are. I also know a HAM who moved into a CC&R neiborhood (new construction) and wrote his HAM antenna and tower into his contract and got it. It seems to me, that no matter what the rule is that you can adjust that rule within reason. AND... The the Golden Rule of Bussiness "The Customer IS ALWAYS RIGHT." So much for feeding this fire, pass me a marshmellow...
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7NNV on May 4, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
As long as people sign up for HOAs, they're making it more difficult for those of us who don't want anything to do with them. In many places the developers think it will raise the property values if they set up a HOA. They see no reason to not set one up because in all the other places where they set one up, people accepted them.
IMHO the people who get themselves elected to a HOA are busybodies who don't have what it takes to get elected dog catcher, but still like thier power trip.
Here's how I look at it. It's my property and I should have the right to determine what's done with my property. If I don't mow the lawn, or cut the dead weeds, that's a fire hazard. If I let garbage pile up, that's a health hazard. I should not have to beg permission from some little tin Hitler if I want to paint my house, put up an antenna, or plant a tree.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by INITZERO on May 4, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
> IMHO the people who get themselves elected to a HOA
> are busybodies who don't have what it takes to get
> elected dog catcher, but still like thier power trip.
KD7NNV,
While it's true that I have never been elected dog
catcher, I neither have time nor the interest in
becoming a busybody. And, if you think your HOA has
any real power, you're wrong.
We (I'm secretary of my HOA) are unpaid and basically
paper pushers. We pay bills, listen to complaints from
neighbors and make sure folks are living up to the
CC&R. The power is not ours but the contract our
neighbors have signed.
As for my election to office, my XYL nominated me as
a joke. She never thought I'd actually get elected.
Unfortunately, there were there openings for the five
member board and only three candidates so I was
elected by default.
I don't mind serving -- I'm entering my second of
three years in office. In fact, it has given me a
greater appreciation for HOAs in general. Besides, I
am now in a position to help soften some of the rules
and regulations.
I'm part of the solution instead of simply whining
about the current state of affairs.
> beg permission from some little tin Hitler
Just for the record, I have never exterminated any
Jews, Russions, Gypsies, etc. and I'm offended by
your suggestion that I'm even in the same ballpark.
Maybe you tone could down the semi-random, broadband
accusations just a bit?
Matt (k4mls)
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC8TCQ on May 4, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Pardon my question, but as a homeowner I am responsible for paying my water and utility bills not some organization. So I would be damned if I would pay dues to some organization and be paying twice. And as others have pointed out, if I go to the bother to pay good hard earned money for property and to build or buy a house, that then becomes my property, and if I want to put up an antenna I will do so.
I understand that people want to protect their propert value, and having several properties I like to see mine stay where it is if not grow. But at what cost? Some fool complained because I had my car sitting in front of my garage with the hood off. Well that car was a show car, and I was putting in the new engine. Big deal, it's may car, my garage, my property. Another time someone called the police because I was riding a dirt bike in my yard, I just rebuilt the engine for a friend, and was taking the bike for a test drive, I have 1.5 acres of land and live on a property that is zoned farmland. The police officer who came to investigate drove across my yard to come after me. Instead of him getting me, I got him for trespassing.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N1JAO on May 5, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
suuuuuuuuuuuure you did- and i beat up Mike Tyson on a regular basis!
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K4JC on May 5, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
As someone who is currently in the process of buying a home for the first time, I found many of the comments in this article very helpful. I, too, refuse to buy a home that comes with CCRs, HOAs, or any other restrictions that allow everybody else to dictate what I can and cannot do on my own property. I have the same problems with communities that restrict home purchases to those "over 55". They call themselves "adult communities". Last time I checked an adult was anyone over 21, not 55! In fact, just the other day I came across a place I could have bought for cash (motivated seller), but because I'm not "over 55", I couldn't buy it. Can you say, "age discrimination"? Fortunately there are several prospective properties available which seem to fit my criteria (it has a roof and four walls, and no antenna restrictions), but it still burns me that there are areas which are "off limits" to me just because some people want to play dictator. My desire for antennas infringes on their rights? Their "power trip" infringes on my rights. So where do we go from here?
WB2WIK, I also lean toward the Libertarian point of view. Too bad their political voice isn't a bit louder.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K2XT on May 5, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Some OMs are serious about ham radio, and some have it as tenth in line in terms of importance. For the latter, they yield to the XYL who wants a new house. They get the CCR/HOA houses.
The guys who are serious and/or have understanding XYLs have alternatives. They go out in the country, they get an older home and fix it up, they drive longer distances to work, they may even have to put kids in a private school. They think it is worth it. I agree.
I am in central NJ. All around here are these "Mc Mansions." But guess what? There are also 20-30 year old ranch houses with less square footage, on ACRES, of WOODS, for 2/3 the cost, hidden from view, with neighbors who DON'T CARE what the heck you do on your property. Dogs, motor homes, boats, ham radio towers, do whatever you want. I have 7 acres, you can't see the house from the road. I have had 7 visits from building inspectors for a renovation I am doing, and they park their cars looking right at a 70 ft tower with Christmas tree stacked monobanders. Never once have any of them said one word to me about it, and it was installed within 3 weeks of me moving here, with no permit.
No, I won't tell you where it is. And the QRZ address won't help you either! I hunted for this kind of a place, for months. It can be done. You tell the realtor you want 4 acres minimum, and privacy all around. Don't tell her why, don't tell the lawyer, don't ask for trouble. Just do it, it's important. In fact there's 6 acres, ranch house on a knoll only a mile from here, woods all around the house, for sale sign too.....
Remember, it's important to be on the air, with a real antenna. You are a ham radio operator. It's your life, you have to work that DX NOW! You can't be 100% sure (can you?) that they allow antennas in heaven either, and besides that Mellish Reef might be QRT by then.
Rick
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KD7HZO on May 5, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
It seems to me that CC&Rs are discriminatory. If a person is financially capable of buying a house in a neighborhood they like, Why should they be forced to join a group that they dont want to be a part of?
It seems that the whole concept of hoas is the rights of the majority over an indivuduals rights. That seems unconstitutional.
People will say that if you dont like it move somewhere else. If the location is great and its in a good school district, etc.. Why should someone who is qualified be forced to join the hoa?
Any thought on this guys? just my 2 cents
John-kd7hzo
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N0XAS on May 5, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
WB2WIK,
Well, first off, I do tend to place the needs and happiness of my family first, rather than one of my hobbies. Call me a sucker, a sheep, whatever, I do try not to be a selfish jerk that way. This house and this neighborhood are pretty much perfect for my family (all seven of us), other than one very minor inconvenience I put up with. I treat it as something of an engineering challenge to get enough signal out from stealth antennas... and 90% of my operating is QRP. I understand, though, that some people lack either the patience or the technical expertise to do more than unpack and assemble expensive aluminum. No problem, it takes all kinds.
Believe it or not, I'm probably as close to Libertarian as I can be and still have a grip on reality. I just won't trade that tenuous grasp for any particular dogma. Besides, I figure in a few years I'll be able to do what I bloody well please. Why? Well, for one thing, I have not seen a single CC&R yet that absolutely precludes ever installing an antenna. It just says *how* you have to do it. If the board won't approve it, change the board. If the rules say absolutely not, change the rules. If it takes a while to do it, so what? Instant gratification is highly overrated. This is one way I can teach my kids some real-world survival skills (in addition to woodsmanship, marksmanship, orienteering, mechanical and technical skills) that they will need to know some day.
As for why people buy houses in Omaha, well, people live here. Voluntarily, even. I've lived all over the country and have visited several parts of the PDRC on numerous occasions and, while the scenery in some parts is superficially attractive, I have decided there hasn't been enough money printed go get me to take up a 6 call (or a 2, for that matter). I'd bet a beer, though, you've never seen Nebraska for more than stopover time, so you would't know anything about why it's so good to live here. And that's cool, I like living around reasonable people.
73,
Dale
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WZ5PM on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
CC&R's - a new form of discrimination I am afraid. It use to be about purely race and now its about "being like us". CC&Rs so that the neighbors dont have to be scared. Scared. Scared and scared of any one that is not "like them".
I have owned a home without CC&Rs and had a neighbor across the street that had taken delight in piling 27 junked cars around his house. And yes, when it came time to sell, we lost a lot on our property because of it.
But CC&Rs are NOT the answer.
At the current QTH, my XYL and I searched for a YEAR and made four offers before we finally found a house without CC&Rs that specificaly prevented ham antennas - in the entire COUNTY.
The property we though we were buying before this house and fell through was owned by a federal judge. The HOA approved my vertical dipole in a flag pole, only to be nixed by the HOA attorney. The federal judge almost did a melt down he was so mad!
Think its easy to find a home without CC&Rs against antennas? Think again. We are 20 miles out of town and are just lucky that the CC&Rs here are pre mid-70s drafts.
Never the less, at any moment, despite the HOA signing off that it was OK to have my ham antennas, I am sure that the neighbors would swooop down on me if they dont like what they see.
Frankly, the State and County laws are the ones that failed. Most of the bs in CC&Rs is just common sense that should be inforced by county code - and isnt.
Where I see that CC&Rs really fail is that there is no checks and balance of power. Our government has an executive, legislative and judical branch. If one or two branches fail, there is a third to appeal to. Not so with CC&Rs! Simply if the neighbors dont like you, then they can make hell for you until you leave. No one should have the right.
In the old days, people went and talked with their neighbors and viewed them as people. Today, people view their neighbors as either being LIKE them or the enemy. Since they are too chicken to work it out for themselves, they get together in HOA gangs.
People are just scardy cats and want life to be "safe" for them - no downside risk. Predictable. Safe.
Pete
|
| |
|
Simple Non-Semi-Conformity ?"
|
|
|
by K4III on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I believe that it shouldn't be an eye-sore or stand out too much. If the highest tree and building is 40 feet high and you live on a quarter of an acre of property and need to attach the guy wires for your tower/antenna on the roof, telephone pole and neighbor's fence, simply don't erect up a 100 foot tower! A 30 foot attic antenna or window antenna for local reception/transmissions usually will work ok, especially on vhf/uhf. If you are an avid DX-er or utilize towers, don't buy in a neighborhood similar to this in the first place. (BUY LOTS + LOTS of property!)
However, if you are decent about the looks of the antenna/tower and tried hiding it and a neighbor still bothers you or the association still bans your antennas, arrange a meeting with your association about Satellite dishes, tv antennas, lightning rods!, dead trees, bad paint jobs, bad lawns, or whatever problem the neighbor has and you don't. (Every neighbor is different. the one on my left mows his lawn every day!, the right never shuts his garage and has a tv blaring all day in it, the second over parks a trailer in his driveway year round, and behind us does "woodshop" in his driveway "9-5" weekdays. I could go on... I've got more neighbors!) Get my drift?
Anyways, if they fight back, it will probably be about your lawn or some second issue. Keep fighting and the association will probably level their grievances with the neighbor and you somehow. They probably will ask you to settle the argueing yourselves or impose rules on both the situations. You then could level with the neighbor stating you will drop your complaints in return for his, possibly allowing the tower/antenna if you mow your lawn more regularly or something, and at the same time, he will do something on his behalf, allowing you to keep your antenna/tower in the long run for some simple chore! What a scenario! (And possibly without need for a lawyer!)
*Is this a decent "unfair" solution? I guess you could say it's like going into the office and getting fired because of a co-worker who is jealous and complains of fatigue from seeing your the size and features/capabilities of your hi-tech computer when she passes your cubicle every morning.
Except as your walking out of the boss's office after being fired, you trip and threaten a lawsuit unless you are placed back in the ranks! (Of course you must really be hurt! AND you will get "sick-pay" and possibly a short vacation and trip to the doctor on the boss' behalf! Won't that anger that initial employee who complained! Maybe the co-worker will now be fired instead? At least he/she will keep his/her mouth shut next time!)
|
| |
|
FORGOT from Previous Post
|
|
|
by K4III on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I also do some consulting work and visited a family which was in a CCR development next to another ham. Needless to say, I asked whether they knew their neighbor and whether there were CCRs or that sort of thing. The family stated that he was a really nice guy and worked for both the FBI and CIA and was required to have the (dual-band) antenna and (10-60m) antennas for communications and thus was EXEMPT from any neighborhood antenna CCRs. Lets just say that I recognized the callsign on the license plate in his driveway. Do you think I explained further? I said Wow! That must be neat having an FBI agent as a neighbor!
No way, if it works... USE IT!!!
|
| |
|
FORGOT from Previous Post
|
|
|
by K4III on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I also do some consulting work and visited a family which was in a CCR development next to another ham. Needless to say, I asked whether they knew their neighbor and whether there were CCRs or that sort of thing. The family stated that he was a really nice guy and worked for both the FBI and CIA and was required to have the (dual-band) antenna and (10-60m) antennas for communications and thus was EXEMPT from any neighborhood antenna CCRs. Lets just say that I recognized the callsign on the license plate in his driveway. Do you think I explained further? I said Wow! That must be neat having an FBI agent as a neighbor!
No way, if it works... USE IT!!!
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by N8EMR on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
People talk about a HOA paying for things. What in the world should they pay for? Why does a neighborhood have a common area that needs maintenance? Why should a "subdivision" be paying for parks. let the city put in a park and maintain it.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WA1ZNJ on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
N8EMR, In my subdivision, my HOA pays for trash pickup, maintains the gates on both entrances, the pool and club house, and the landscaping in the common areas. It also sponors 2 pool parties -Memorial Day and Labor Day. Although I can't install a tower and a beam, my HOA is not as restrictive as others. I live beside the vice-president of my HOA, and I have a vertical and a 80M windom antenna installed. I did not ask for approval to install them, and I haven't received any complaints. If you drove pass my house, you would never know I have antennas installed. I work plenty of DX. Since January of this year, I have worked 145 countries on SSB, RTTY, or PSK31.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by K4JSR on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
So why all the worry about CC&R's? You guys cannot
possibly have any time to get on the air! You're
all here -- tilting with windmills! :-)
73, K4JSR
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 6, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Dale, I'm surely glad you enjoy Omaha. I have spent some reasonable time there, and in various parts of Nebraska, while performing source inspections on the Dale Resistor plant among others. I guess, all told, I've probably spent 40 or 50 days and nights in the Omaha area over the course of 20 years or so. No bad experiences, other than the usual airline problems.
Reasons I won't live there, and never will, are substantial for me, and evidently not for you. I've also lived all over the country, have visited all 50 states (most of them on multiple occasions), and concluded that for me, my family, my "allergies" (pollen, etc), and our lifestyle, I don't want to live more than 20 minutes from the beach (Atlantic, Pacific, whatever!), ever, and also will always live a reasonable commute to local good skiing -- since ocean sports and skiing are my other two main hobbies, besides ham radio. Here in California, I can ski all day in the eastern Sierra, and then still go to the beach for snorkeling or scuba the same afternoon, and then drive home for a backyard barbecue in February.
Can't to any of those things in Omaha, and I'd miss them, greatly -- so would my family.
But, regardless of where we settle next, and more moves are in our future, it will never be anywhere having CC&Rs, and that's for certain.
Good luck to you and your family, and enjoy those wonderful Omaha steaks! (I do miss those, although we can get them by mail order.)
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KF6IIU on May 7, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
As much as I hate HOAs I'm against the ARRL lobbying for legislation
to protect amateur radio from covenant restriction. They are also promoting
government messing with
individual property rights, they are just on our side.
HOWEVER, the "you were aware of the contractual restrictions" arguments
do not hold up in two situations:
One, I am lucky to live in California where sleazy realtors are held in check
by requirements that they disclose covenant restrictions clearly and up
front. When you tour a home, the HOA by-laws are practically waved in your
face when you walk in the door - so there is no excuse for claiming ignorance.
That doesn't happen in other states.
Two, in the SF Bay Area nearly 100% of new housing and any housing priced under
a half-million is under the iron fist of an HOA. For new housing, the by-laws
of the HOA usually give the developers nearly absolute
control over the HOA for many years after the PUD is built.
I lived in such a development for several years in Mountain View, with mixed
feelings. There was a ban against outside antennas. There no ban on
indoor antennas or on transmitting equipment in general. The HOA was
useful in keeping up the common areas, and keeping flagrant
violations under control (like neighbors renting out their garage as living
quarters.) Fees were low. But I got tired of the attitudes - the greedy developer
bastards running the HOA even joked about suing residents out of their
home for trivial violations so they could profit from the huge appreciations
the residents enjoyed during the peak insantity of the Bay Area boom.
I could see how they might not really be joking.
My current QTH has no such restrictions but I guarantee the local government
and neighbors would send just as much legal crap my way as an HOA
if I ever decided to put up a tower. A neary town reportedly sues everyone
who puts up a tower just on general NIMBY principles (and usually loses
if the ham has enough time and money to fight the city.) Fortunately I have
no plans to put up a tower.
The ARRL would be better off spending their resources in education and
outreach. If a larger percentage of our neighbors were hams or were actually
educated about science and technology they would accept amateur radio
more willingly.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 7, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
KF6IIU, what a well thought-out response.
I agree with you on all counts, except I don't think an education & outreach program would help much. Reason: Even if we trebled our numbers and there were 2.1 Million hams in America, this is still a pittance. There are more boat and trailer owners, and they're typically not allowed to park their equipment in the streets, or even in their driveways, in "CC&R" developments. There are more home gardeners, and they're typically not allowed to plant and grow "non conforming" bushes, shrubs or trees. The plain fact is, even though 100% of everyone living under restrictive covenants wants to do _something_ they are not allowed to do, silly people keep buying these properties with full knowledge of the restrictions. They swallow hard and buy, anyway, possibly hoping against hope that something will change, and they'll ultimately be allowed to pursue their hobbies and other enjoyable activities.
The most effective weapon: Don't buy there. Convince as many people as you can to follow suit. When the developers can't sell properties because nobody's interested in them, the restrictions will disappear like magic. You and I, and millions of other home buyers, can make it happen.
Remember, most of the reasons people give for buying in CC&R areas are not well reasoned. Things like, "We wanted our children to be in _this_ school system" doesn't hold water. The school systems grow to be what they are -- or are not -- after the population moves in, not before. Same goes for shopping, entertainment and other conveniences. This stuff doesn't go in before the homes are built, they follow afterwards. If nobody's buying, all the other stuff will never be built, at all.
Most cities have unified school districts, or equivalents, rendering the variation from one school to the next largely a matter of bricks and mortar. It's the kids that make the school. The ones from solid homes where education is important become good students. Period.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
I Can Tell I'm Getting Old and Grumpy....
|
|
|
by KC7BDP on May 8, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
When I find myself unable to post again on this topic. But, just for the heck of it, lets play "Myth/Fact".
Myth: "I am forced to live in an area where I must abide by CCR's and HOA's"
Fact: As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, you do not. You can move to an older neighborhood; you can move to "the sticks" (with either a new or an old house); you can pass up the opportunity to control your neighbors' housekeeping in order to keep your neighbors from controlling your antennas.
*******
Myth: "I MUST have a new house in a good school district"
Fact: I (KC7BDP)live in a 44-year-old house in what is CONSISTANTLY ranked in the top 5 school districts (often as #1) in my State. My kids can walk (bicycle, ride a scooter, or the like) to their elementary school for 6 years; for Junior High, they walk to the Junior High which they've walked (bicycled, etc) two blocks past on their way to elementary school. It's an old house, I'm in the procees of rewiring the electric system and adding cable TV and a CAT5e network - and while I'm at it, I'm delivering two dedicated HV circuits to the little closet which I call my radio room.
*******
Myth: "Poor little old me, I can't enjoy my Ham Radio Hobby (and yes, it's obviously just a hobby for you) because my HOA won't let me put up antennas!"
Fact: Poor little old you; you exercised your free will and don't like the consequences! What makes this country great is the very same thing which seemingly makes your life miserable - the freedom of choice and its associated consequences. Everybody gets to choose and everybody must live with their choices.
Take some responsibility for your actions for Crissakes! If half the efoort spent on whining was re-directed towrds actually DOING something, you would most assuredly NOT be in your "dire" predicament.
Sheese!
Jimmy
KC7BDP
|
| |
|
stop talking about the school systems :)
|
|
|
by KC9L on May 8, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
school system, school system, blah blah blah. The public school system here sucks. I don't care. My father went to the best private high school in the entire city, and so did I. My grandfather was a janitor, and my dad was a salesman, so don't tell me it's too expensive. My grandpa and my dad did it, and I'll do it too someday, maybe. In fact, it would have been cheaper had we not had to pour money into a sinking public school system.
Public school systems, at least how they're done in Illinois, are a great tool to ruin communities. All the people that can afford newer houses in the 'burbs can move to a "better" district, leaving those who like their neighborhood with a worse-off district and lowering property values, starting the cycle all over again as another group of people move out.
Why? They're based on property taxes--so the richer areas with more money for schools attract more and more people, becoming richer, while poorer areas keep losing money for their schools.
|
| |
|
RE: stop talking about the school systems :)
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 8, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
This is pretty far off-subject at this point, but the public forum aspect is fun, like a round-table QSO...
Re school systems, I'm sorry to hear that Chicago is like that (and I had no idea it was).
Here in Los Angeles, the schools are all part of the "Unified School District," which means schools are all about the same, teach the same curriculum, use the same standardized tests, receive the same amount of money (per student) from the tax base, and pay the teachers identical salaries regardless of where (which school) they work.
And the salaries are very high. The L.A. Times published all teacher salaries last year (it's public information, anyway) and the median income was over $50,000, with a few dozen teachers making more than $100,000, and nearly all administrators making six figures.
Not bad for a 41 week work year!
This system seems as fair as one can be, and I can't imagine why the taxpayers in any city would put up with anything less.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KF4LNE on May 11, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I live in an area where there are few restrictions. (that stuck in my mind)
1: Nothing offensive (no examples)
2: No Livestock (ie- chickens and cows)
3: No more than one dwelling on a lot.
4: Homes must be at least 950 sq ft.
I guess this means I can't live in the 9x9 ham shack on the same lot as the house, and if the neighbors find my "Solicitors will be shot" sign offensive I have to remove it. I guess I'm lucky, I can butcher a tree to my needs if I want to put a pair of 17 el 2M yagis in the top of it. As for the guy who said he is under a 30ft tower ordinace, i suggest a crank-up, just crank it back to 30 ft for the important people to see. :-)
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by EI4HQ on May 17, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
As a total outsider looking in,(HOA/CC&R's are just making an appearance in Ireland) I'm gob-smacked.
Given the almost religious zeal with with the US presents itself to the outside world as being the protector of individuals rights to freedom, expression etc. etc. etc. I find the widespread existence of the HOA/CC&R phenomenon incredible.
I think there will probably be a constitutional challenge in Ireland before long where the boundaries of what HOA/CC&Rs are entitled to make rules about will be set out. It is certainly going to be VERY restrictive. In Ireland, I suspect given our historical past, a persons house is their castle and don't anyone dare try and tell them what they can and can't do with it. Do I detect a significant amount of intolerance in the concept of HOAs/CC&Rs? What happened to "love thy neighbour" ;o)
It seems to me the "land of the free" ain't quite so free anymore ;o(
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB2WIK on May 17, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
EI4HQ, you're absolutely right.
But if Americans are suffering under CC&R restrictions, it is completely our own fault. We have no one to blame. Builders started this craze decades ago, mostly in retirement areas like Florida and Arizona, and it spread simply because The Willing were ready and able to swallow anything spooned to them.
We still have many options, and as I see it, none of those include buying any CC&R properties.
I hope Ireland's long tradition of highly independent "castle owners" continues and you do not let this plight succeed there.
WB2WIK/6
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KC2FCR on July 8, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"As a total outsider looking in,(HOA/CC&R's are just making an appearance in Ireland) I'm gob-smacked."
Isn't the US a great country? The real motive hear is greed, backed by fear and small mindedness. People are trying to protect what they perceive to be their property values, and believe that they have the right to modify other people's behavior to that end. It could also be a power/control issue, but I'll give some of the people on here who seem to be affiliated with these groups the benefit of the doubt.
Very few people understand that part of the price of freedom is letting your neighbor do something you don't approve of. Me? I'll toast a Smithwicks to the thought of an interstate highway being built beside your precious cookie cutter communities, and the reminder that if you're on the board, you're on the first page of any lawsuits. Cheers!
KC2FCR
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by WB9XXX on September 11, 2002
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I'm a little late in replying here, but I feel the need to say my peace.
We bought a new home in a CC&R community. It was our first new home purchase, and frankly, I'd never heard of Homeowner's Associations before. I had never lived where they existed, and neither did the spouse.
Okay, so here we are! We've picked out our $124,000
home, arranged financing, put down earnest money, had the house built, picked out the colors, chose carpeting, arranged (and prepaid) movers for "closing day", sold the old home, and have pen in hand ready to sign the final papers. Now, the Realtor hands us a paper with these ridiculous CC&Rs. It's pretty easy to say "It's your fault! You signed them!!", but is it? Had we walked away from our "committment" to buy this house, we would have lost about $2500.00 dollars that was already put into the home (and the move) that was non-refundable. It was "SIGN" or this money goes into the garbage can and you have no where to live.
Perhaps some people can toss away this kind of money like a used Kleenex, but we had saved a long, long time to get that much! It truly was a move of extortion. Nothing was said about the HOA until the day of closing. "Why didn't you ask if there was a HOA before you built?" you ask? Because we didn't know THEY EXISTED! And no one surely volunteered that information. And having taken American History (and passed) it never occured to me that such a thing could be legal in the first place. I also did not think to ask if a man named Skippy would prance naked through the neighborhood at noon on Thursdays. I guess that's my fault, too.
It's extortion. It's frightening. And as soon as we get any equity in this house (which isn't happening yet as the property values have stayed the same...imagine that) we are OUT OF HERE! We have 3 kids, clothes, food, and book rental to pay for. I don't give a bunny's butt what their common area or stinking (and I mean that literally) POND (aka West Nile Virus Breeding Ground, or WNVBG for short) look like.
Jeez. And people say Saddam is crazy.
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KA9YNX on January 21, 2003
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I have to agree that there seems to be more foreclosures and bankruptcies in HOA's. I buy foreclosures and judgments for a living, so I believe I have a good feel for the market.
Most of my business comes from people living in HOA's.
I find that the property values do not rise on par with homes that are not in HOA’s.
Ed
|
| |
|
RE: ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by KF4UZS on July 7, 2004
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
My Board of Directors is absolutely corrupt. They refuse to obey the bylaws with regard to production of records. Any member is entitled to examine all records pertaining to the association. They hired a manager who mishandled trust funds ( took association dues and deposited them into his personal account ). I uncovered this misconduct and the board refused to terminate the man. I went out into the street and organized a protest. Reluctantly, the board terminated him. Now the board has raised dues 50% without explanation. I tried to organize a meeting to vote for a rollback of dues and other changes to the bylaws. The board, fearing for its personal interests, hired the top law firm in Atlanta, Weissman, Nowack, Curry and Wilco. The lawyer ( from Weissman ) sent me a letter threatening a lawsuit against me if I attempt to make changes in the community. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is.
|
| |
|
ABC 20/20 report on homeowner's Assns
|
|
|
by FULTON on October 23, 2004
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I think any irate homeowners should consider running for the board themselves and see how difficult it is to run an association.
Generally the disgruntled are the ones who do not read their CC&R's, do not participate in meetings, have little or no knowledge of the associations inner workings. They should run for the board. JK
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to discussions on this article.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Other Recent Articles
Deltona Youth Loves to Ham It Up on the Radio:
Blackwood's Radio Link To Titanic Commemorated:
Red Cross Honors 2 for Crucial Radio Coordination After Joplin Tornado:
Propagation Forecast Bulletin #06 de K7RA:
Amateur Radio Exempted from IL. Law:
|
