Contesters with no respect!
Chris Pickett (M5LRO)
on
December 2, 2002
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Why do contesters think that they have the divine right to ignore band plans and move into the CW portion of the band.
I know that the respectable operator will use the band plans and adhere to them!!!!!!!
As if having 40 meters completely taken over this weekend was not enough we also have to put up with contesters moving into and abusing the CW portion of the band - is there no escape?
I just wish that the contesters would play the game - they do not, after all own the radio spectrum for the weekend of the contest.
Yes, contests are fun for those who participate but please please act like professional operators.
Don't get me wrong guys I am not a gripe but some of the calls I listed were the supposedly professional contest teams!!!
I know as usual it is the few who spoil it for the many and I also know that the IARU Region 1 band plans are voluntary but they should be legislated as in the USA.
Mail me if you have the same experience.
Best 73 to all
Chris
M5LRO
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by KA2UUP on December 2, 2002
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Amen!!! I think that says it all about unruly contesters!!!!
I noticed that, too. There was actually some CW on top of conversations in some places on 20 meters. What a drag. Please, check the band before you send. That will solve the problem.
Cheers from Bert at KA2UUP
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by N3HKN on December 2, 2002
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Maybe the hobby is too focused on competition. Once you begin to formally introduce and support competition the hobby becomes a sport. While hams cannot take "performancing enhancing drugs" they can bend/break rules in an effort to see their name at the top of a list.
So has our HOBBY become a SPORT ?
N3HKN
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by N4GI on December 2, 2002
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"You got CW in my phone band!"
"No, you got phone in my CW band!"
C'mon.... Not sure about overseas, but isn't CW permitted everywhere here in the US? It's the other emission types that are restricted to subbands.
Don't feel alone though. I'm sure the out-of-band CBers had a hard time having a QSO on the bottom of 10 during WW too!!!
Viva la contest!
Blake N4GI
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by N1ZZZ on December 2, 2002
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Ever try to run digital modes during a big CW contest? Good luck. I just tend to go to the WARC bands or just turn off the radio. Thats my 2 cents
Jeremy N1ZZZ
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Contesters with no respect! BS!
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by AD6WL on December 2, 2002
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Well, I have never noticed other modes intruding into the CW portion of the band so the problem must not be so obvious. There have been many times when CW ops go into the data portions of the band.
You make a big gripe about all these bad contesters, then at the end you sneak in how it is only a few bad ops. If so then why post it here? Why not contact these few bad ops individually, or email their calls to their governing authorities?
Ham radio is not a sport, but contesting is part of ham radio. It is one aspect of ham radio. I understand you don't enjoy this aspect and I respect that. There are always other modes and bands to use to get away from the "Evil Contesters."
Also, we are amateurs, not professionals.
Best, best regards to you also.
Jim, AD6WL
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RE: Contesters with no respect! BS!
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by M5LRO on December 2, 2002
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I don't wish to report anyone as I would not be seen to get anyone in trouble, nevertheless, i was interested in general opinion hence the mention here.
I listed over 20 contest calls on 40m during the WW SSB contest and we only have 100khz over here on 40 meters - please remember that.
Warc Bands would be no use for inter Gland working either.
best 73
chris
M5LRO
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RE: Contesters with no respect! BS!
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on December 2, 2002
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Chris,
You want to talk to the fellow complaining that there are plunking of BIG SSB signals on top of his QRP CW signals on 7.040.
Have FUN
Bob
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by N8UZE on December 2, 2002
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In the US there are the divisions mandated by the FCC and overlaid on top of this are the "gentleman's agreement" band plans.
Basically the FCC mandates divide the bands into narrow mode (i.e CW and data) and wide modes (i.e. voice, SSTV, etc). Narrow modes can be used in the wide mode segment but not vice versa. CW is permitted on any legal amateur frequency. However, in general US amateurs don't use the narrow modes up in the voice portion unless conditions deteriorate so badly that voice can't be successfully copied.
Now on top of the mandated divisions, there is the band plan. This defines things like DX windows, areas aimed at RTTY, SSTV, etc. However these are not mandatory and the courteous operator will try to honor these band plans. However, if the frequency is not in use at the time, it can be used for any mode that is legal on that band segment.
From the US side, I haven't really seen too much problem with foreign voice stations in the CW segment. Naturally 40m has some unique problems due to the fact that other regions don't have the access to the same area as the US does. Hopefully, the broadcast stations will get moved and this opened up.
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by WB2WIK on December 2, 2002
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Most of the world only has 100 kHz on 40 meters, and they must fit all modes in that space.
The only way for American operators to make "DX" contacts is for us to operate split frequency, transmitting above 7150 and listening below 7100. This is the norm, and has been the norm for decades.
During an SSB contest, of course there is so much congestion, especially outside the U.S. where the band is so narrow, the operators have no choice but to find the clearest frequency they can, and use it.
I'm not sure I understand the problem, here.
WB2WIK/6
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by KZ5A on December 2, 2002
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I get so tired hearing ragchewers whine about contests. Like there aren't WARC bands or some other mode to operate during contests.
And what is supposed to be wrong with treating Ham Radio as a sport? DXing, contesting, and experimentation are, for me, what Ham Radio is all about. If it were not for the operationally and technically challanging aspects of ham radio, I wouldn't bother with it at all. And I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
I'm not one for idle chit chat and have a hard time understanding the attraction in ragchewing. However it doesn't bother me that other folks enjoy pointless yaking. And it does keep the bands somewhat in use between contests.
So all you ragchewers and appliance operators hang in there, find something else to do during contests, and don't even think about going back to CB.
73 Jack
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by NB6Z on December 2, 2002
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It seems that contesting has become the "extreme sport" of the over weight ham set. Eat or be eaten is the only way to win... Its not about communications, its the sport of "hit-n-run". Gentlemen's agreements are for gentlemen, not for winners. I'm pretty sure this problem is worse here in the USA than in other places; at least it seems that way to me.
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by NO9E on December 2, 2002
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Everywhere I see ham radio slowly dying off. University clubs closing or inactive, calls on repeaters unanswered, big antenna installations (belonging mostly to older folks) being dismantled.... New hams seem to be mostly older people while most young people embrace the Internet. I am doing my fair share of trying to keep ham radio alive. I demonstrate my station (including QSOs) to almost every visitor at home. All my children (3) have callsigns but none is active.
In order to keep the hobby going and our frequencies safe, we need as many activities on ham bands as possible. Contests are excellent in this regard. If I don't like them, I can move to WARC frequencies or operate the mode that is not active. There are only a few contests during a year that fill up the frequencies. And if there is a contest, why not participate even if for a few QSO. Besides, there are no contests during the weekday.
73,
Ignacy, no9e@arrl.net
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by KT8K on December 2, 2002
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Contests have their tradeoffs, no question, but they do establish communication capabilities that aren't proven on the average day when some bands are nearly devoid of users. I am amazed at what I can do on 10 and 15 meters during a contest, when the day before or after I was unable to find more than a few signals.
I also think that CW ops set their filters ultra-narrow during contests, and may not hear a phone or digital signal or may think it is far enough away to not be bothered. I personally am unsure of how close I can be to a >4 KHz-wide RTTY signal.
Hang in there folks. Contests, like every other kind of operation on our bands, have their good and bad points. I roll with it and enjoy as much of it as I can.
best rx es 73s de kt8k - Tim
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by K3DWW on December 2, 2002
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People have been telling me that the reason for keeping CW as a license requirement is its ability to get thru QRM/N, right? Well, if that's true then why do we need band plans to protect CW from other modes? Seems to me that the reverse otta be true: that we should have 'SSB Only' and 'Data Only' bands to protect those modes from CW and *no* CW Only bands. You're not suggesting that all those tales of CW superiority are disingenuous are you (c;]?
73, K3DWW
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by KG4PIL on December 2, 2002
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So far, from what I've read,it seems like every ham has a cock and bull story to justify his own desires instead of obeying standing rules. Not a lot of seperation between us and cb'ers,is there?
George de KG4PIL
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by W9WHE on December 2, 2002
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To KZ5A:
Gee whiz, us SSB guys are so very glad to "sort of" keep the bands "in use between contests". I'm so sorry, but I really did not understand my role, until you pointed it out to me.
It is attitudes like yours that raise hostillities between "contesters" and the majority of hams. Your comment that "like there aren't WARC bands or something durring contests" merely underscores the extreme nature of your perspective. Take your own suggestion. Why not take your contests to the WARC bands??
Maby, just maby, if you MINORITY "contest" types would limit your "contests" to the WARC bands, and leave the MAJORITY of us SSB types the majority of the spectrum, there would be a cessation of hostilities. In other words, WHY must a minority of hams consume the majority of spectrum?
Answer....it is time to LIMIT each contest to one band at a time. Preferably 11 meters, where attitudes like yours belong.
Maby its time to petition the FCC for a rule limiting each contest to ONE band at a time. (Petitions for rule making are how the FCC gets prodded into making new rules) That way, the minority would not be "interfearing" with the majority. I may just entitle it the KZ5A rule!
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by VE7NGR on December 2, 2002
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KT8K: Greater than 4 kHz wide RTTY signal? RTTY is 170 Hz shift FSK (even wide shift RTTY is 800 Hz shift, and I've never seen that used on the amateur bands). I operate RTTY with a 500 Hz filter on my receiver - and only because I don't have a narrower filter!
Where do you get > 4 kHz from?
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by N6AJR on December 2, 2002
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I have a problem with contesters taking over the band, but then I work the contesters and send them qsl cards and make contacts in many new areas that don't normally have folks there. This turns a problem into an oppertunity.
A good example is working Jamacia on UO14 last month. The fellow was there as part of a dxpedition, but the card still counts as a satallite contact on UO14 on Jamacia.
Use the contesters to your advantage. They are also on several days before and sometimes after the contest, that's how I picked up Galapos island and Ascencion island last month. Normally there is no one there!
And bye the way, its legal to use CW any where on the band,so either use it or ignore it... it ain't going away no mater what we do! Folks this is a hobby, enjoy it, have fun and quit stressing out. That's what the OFF switch is for!
tom N6AJR 73
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by WO5I on December 2, 2002
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One of the most wonderful things about ham radio is one thing that seems to cause some people the most concern: HAM RADIO IS A **DIVERSE** HOBBY!!!
There is something in this hobby for everyone. You have contests, paper chasing, public service, rag chewing, cw, phone, computers, radio-controlled satellites, radio-controlled airplanes, radio-controlled radios, etc. Heck, I think there are WAY more flavors of ham radio than there are flavors of ice cream.
Complaining about contesters taking up the bands is not unlike complaining about the ice cream store hosting a chocolate convention while all you want to do is get in for your precious scoop of vanilla. The parking lot is too small, the store is too small, and you just MIGHT have to go across town for your vanilla.
This argument is as old and tired as the chicken/egg dilemma. The complaint has been around since the first time someone proposed the first competative event on the air. Contests aren't going away.
If a contest crowds you, then adapt to one of the other many choices ham radio has to offer. If 40m is crowded, try 75 or 30. If the CW bands get loaded down with contesters, try phone or vice-versa. Get on 2m and have a chat there. Or, you COULD (shudder the thought) dip your toes in the contest waters! You might find yourself enjoying it. Maybe not enough to convert you to the 'dark' side of ham radio, but you might understand a little better what all the fuss is about.
Please don't read this as a defense of rude contesters. There are rude individuals in every facet of our many-faceted hobby. Rude individuals should be more considerate, and if that is your point, I second the motion. However, if you are just complaining because your favorite day-in and day-out ragchew frequency gets overrun with contesters a few weekends a year, then you should either a)take a break from ham radio altogether because you obviously take it too seriously, or b) learn to adapt to other bands/modes/activities.
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by K1ZF on December 2, 2002
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What KZ5A said...
Ham radio would be pretty dull without contesters.
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by K0XU on December 2, 2002
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To W9WHE
"Take your own suggestion. Why not take your contests to the WARC bands?? "
Does this mean that you would support a move to make contesting legal on the WARC bands? If so we could use your support. As you know when the "use it or lose it" contesters get on on the few weekends a year that we do, there is often a lack of bandwidth available. If we could at last be allowed to activate the WARC bands during contests there might be less congestion on the rest of the bands. Then again maybe not. ;-)
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by W5MIT on December 2, 2002
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Didn't Hollingsworth just make the mistake of thinking that band plans are the law? Something about using 146.520?
Humm....
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by N0JVT on December 2, 2002
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Every weekend my opinion of Contesters gets lower and lower...just last weekend 14.070.150 was wiped out totally at my QTH with CW Contest calls from band opening to band closure both sat & Sun....FOr Crying out loud...if they cant follow the Bandplan they out to be disqualified for the entire year !!!!
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by N0JVT on December 2, 2002
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" I'm not one for idle chit chat and have a hard time > understanding the attraction in ragchewing. However > it doesn't bother me that other folks enjoy pointless yaking. And it does keep the bands somewhat in use between contests. "
It's Simple I Like making Friends...Not Collecting Points/Countrys/QSL Cards... Wer'e not Asking Much...Just follow the Bandplan...
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by K2AXX on December 2, 2002
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I love watching threads like this, just getting everyone ticked off. It's interesting to see how cliquish this hobby really is. I guess there's no such thing as Amateur Radio any longer. There are now "Contesters", "Ragchewers", "Digital" and others representing their parochial, narrow-minded views as law.
I contest, ragchew, do weak-signal VHF+ work... sometimes in the same evening/weekend. Guess I belong in a new class - "HAM RADIO OPERATOR". Gee, there's a novel idea...
-AXX
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by K2AXX on December 2, 2002
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Oh, by the way - direct quotes from the ARRL "Considerate Operators Frequency Guide"
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/conop.html
Guess much of this needs to be read by ANYONE and EVERYONE participating in this discussion. The 2nd paragraph is the most important to take note of. If a frequency is NOT occupied, and the mode is acceptable to that stretch of band - go nuts.
"Nothing in the rules recognizes a net's, group's or any individual's special privilege to any specific frequency. Section 97.101(b) of the Rules states that "Each station licensee and each control operator must cooperate in selecting transmitting channels and in making the most effective use of the amateur service frequencies. No frequency will be assigned for the exclusive use of any station." No one "owns" a frequency.
It's good practice--and plain old common sense--for any operator, regardless of mode, to check to see if the frequency is in use prior to engaging operation. If you are there first, other operators should make an effort to protect you from interference to the extent possible, given that 100% interference-free operation is an unrealistic expectation in today's congested bands. "
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by N0FQN on December 3, 2002
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All I see the contesters replies are the same reteric quotes. "If you don't like contesting go to the WARC bands". I'll be damned if I will. The frequecies are not owned exclusively by the contesters during there contestperoid. If you can't be considerate of others then maybe you should go elsewhere. It's no wonder the guys who regularly use the frequencies are ticked off. If, most contesters would use the frquencies on the consistant basis, we would see the bands full all the time. Instead, we get a large group of inconsiderate boobs looking for points during a weekend maylay. I guess there manhood would fall off if they didn't get them. Ever noticed when you do start a rag chew that the contesters will diliberatly move in so close that you can't hold a decent conversation? Until you start your rag chew they aren't interested in that particular frequncy. I wonder why.
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by WA4PTZ on December 3, 2002
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No, the horse is not dead.....you missed the
horse all together.
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Contesters with no respect!
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by N0AH on December 3, 2002
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Chill out man.....CW is allowed just about anywhere in our HF band plan here in the states. What I hate is the modulating jerk who QRM's one who is simply having a CW QSO where allowed- Considering the bandwidth a CW QSO takes compared to a SSB QSO, how can anyone really whine about it- I was in France for this year's CQWWCW- Talk about abuse, how anyone can have a QSO on this band allocation outside the USA amazes me- Blame the band, not the operator- 7MHz has the best potential of any band for meeting both local and DX'ing needs- it's just trashed by everything else that shares the band.
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by W1RFI on December 3, 2002
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<Everywhere I see ham radio slowly dying off. University clubs closing or inactive, calls on repeaters unanswered, big antenna installations (belonging mostly to older folks) being dismantled.... New hams seem to be mostly older people while most young people embrace the Internet. I am doing my fair share of trying to keep ham radio alive. I demonstrate my station (including QSOs) to almost every visitor at home. All my children (3) have callsigns but none is active.>
We have more licensed amateurs now than at any time in amateur radio history, according to the stats on the AH0A web site. There are more exciting things to do with amateur radio than at any time in amateur radio history -- things I never could have envisioned when the highlight of a young ham's experience might be to build a two-tube transmitter and QSO a ham across the world. Satellite communication, moonbounce with single Yagi antennas and low power, meteor scatter, Echolink and operating modes I never dreamed of. If these kids have calls but don't find the excitement in ham radio, maybe ham radio really wasn't for them. There is more fun to be had in today's technological world than ever before.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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by N0JVT on December 3, 2002
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It Seems to me if it's a CW Contest or QSO then the Op Should Stay in the Segment of the band that is desginated for CW ....same goes for the SSB & Digital Modes...just becacuse a mode may be premitted anywhere in a certain band does this mean we should ???
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by AB8PR on December 3, 2002
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From reading this thread (and prior threads on the same topic), I see this problem boiling down to one common theme: courtesy. Problem is folks, this is a two way street. Contesters do not own the frequencies during a contest, but neither do the 'ragchewers' or casual operators. Contesters may do deliberate or accidental QRM, but by the same token the non-contesters could be perceived as doing the same. So long as either side continues to defend themselves with pointless rhetoric, the problem will continue.
"Move to the WARC bands."
This implies that the contesters feel that they own the non-WARC bands for the period of the contest. Wake up and smell the roses: you don't. This is no different than if for instance truckers were to tell regular drivers to stay off the highways while they're using them. Same situation applies; no one owns the road. You have to /share/ it, and do it with courtesy.
"Most contests fall on weekends anyway."
The point being? To use the same analogy, this would be like truckers telling regular drivers to drive only on weekdays. Get real people.
"Use modes that aren't used in the contest."
This implies that contesters own the modes they use for the duration of the contest, which in turn implies they own the frequencies allocated to those modes. The trucker analogy, this would be like telling regular drivers to stick to the back roads and leave the highways to them. Doesn't sound fair, does it? Of course it doesn't, for it is not.
On the flipside of the coin, regular drivers don't have the right to tell truckers to stay off the highways, as they have just as much right to be there as you, despite their being a minority on the roads. Neither do casual operators have the right to tell contesters to stop contesting. It is what they enjoy, same as you enjoy your operations.
The FCC has designated the amateur bands for /all/ amateurs to use, regardless of how they wish to use them. It's limited space, and bumping elbows is inevitable. 'Spectrum Rage' is the term I'd use to describe this phenomenon where QRM is caused intentionally, by either side. It's against the rules, it's discourteous, and doesn't belong on the ham bands.
End o' sermon.
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by AE9B on December 3, 2002
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W9WHE
The WARC bands are off limits to contesters That's Why the arguement keeps coming up
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by AE9B on December 3, 2002
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There are always gripes after big contests. X vs. Y every year. As a relatively new ham (1997) I have this sneaking suspicion(sp) that there has always been this type of conflict. Some people just enjoy hearing themselves. Some gripes may be legitimate.. but in the spirit of amateur radio, I would think making contacts during difficult periods (contest weekends when the bands are full) would be a challenge and finding a way to complete the QSO successfully equally challenging. Some say "QSY to 18.XYZ and return here if the propagation is "no good" some struggle through the band noise and some just give up. If the contact is extremely important, people will find a way, whether it is cell phone, internet or another band. Intentional QRM is another story, nobody advocates that. But hamming in tough conditions is exciting isn't it? If it were easy everybody would be doing it right? We wouldn't want these low codes taking over would we? Just food for thought.. Are we trying to make it easy? Are we looking for an easy way out?
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by AB8PR on December 3, 2002
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AE9B:
Sounds like what you're saying is for non-contesters to 'tough it out'. You missed the entire point. It is not a question of 'who's tougher', it's a question of who is courteous enough to operate within the rules. Contesters have their place, but so do other operators. If a frequency is open on any band, and either a contester or a ragchewer gets there first, they have the right to operate on that frequency without interference, or as little as possible, until they relinguish it. No one has said anything about it being easy, or tough, it's about /harmony/. No one has the right to open up on top of someone else's QSO, be it to contest or to ragchew, and I believe that is the point of the initial posting. It is a matter of history that when in competition, human nature will dictate 'win at all costs'. When this includes throwing decency and common courtesy out the window, then it is a sad state of affairs. Contesting in any form is not war, it is supposed to be friendly fun, with no winners or losers. Last I understood you didn't get any money for winning a ham contest.
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by W4PA on December 3, 2002
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>If a frequency is open on any band, and either a >contester or a ragchewer gets there first, they have >the right to operate on that frequency without >interference, or as little as possible, until they >relinguish it.
Er...no. A read of Part 97 may be in order here.
You certainly have a right to operate if you were
there first, but you have no right to a clean,
interference-free frequency at any given time.
Scott W4PA
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by K1OU on December 3, 2002
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Okay WA4PTZ, I'll jump back on the proverbial horse and throw my opinion. Justify for me when during a contest weekend a contester finds an open frequency, asks SEVERAL times if the frequency is in use, commences cq'ing, then receives an earful from a person that the frequency is in use? Sometimes I think people just like to hang out, find a contester, and start trash.
Personally, I find rude contesters just as offensive as do you. There is one or more in every crowd. I can only live by example, and I make it a point to ask if a frequency is being used before I fire up.
Also, explain for me why during weekends there is not a contest going on, you can go up and down virtually any non-WARC band and hear droves and droves of space, interspersed with people calling CQ for minutes at a time without making a contact?
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by K1OU on December 3, 2002
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And to boot, contests are infinitely more interesting than listening to drivel about gallbladdders and what somebody just bought on Ebay.
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by W4SFC on December 3, 2002
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Mention the word "contest" and look what happens. I do not operate contest, at least not with a great deal of dedication, but that is my choice. What I don't understand though is why is the "contest", or even number of them, blamed for the problem? Ok, on a contest weekend the band gets "extremely over-croweded". No one can find room to do anything. This creats problems for the contester and rag-chewer alike. For what ever reason, and it is everyone's right, some ops only desire to be on the air during contest. Now if for some reason all these same ops decided to be on this Tuesday, Thursday or non-contest weekend, or anyday, wouldn't the band be just a crowded, and the same problems exsist. Then what would we blame it on? How about where it belongs, that minority group of operators on "both sides of the fence" who seem hell bent on creating bad will throughout the entire ham community. We all know they are out there, and very vocal. In another thread, a while ago, on a similar topic a ham was persistant in making rude comments. But as another ham noted, when checking his call sign, he was a Tech, and making comments about 20 mtrs??? Or how about the guy who hears you calling CQ contest, or having a normal QSO on 14.200 so figures 14.199.99 is open and keys up 1500 watts. While reading the rules on any contest no where have I ever read, "this is a contest weekend, so the contest has priority, run everyone else off the band and enjoy yourselves". In the same turn, I have never read a list of times and frequencies that a contester can not operate because of a sked or net. The frequencies are on a first come basis like any other time. It doesn't matter if you consider amateur radio a hobby, a sport or if it has so consumed you that it runs your life, why not just respect your neighbor, follow the regs, and most of all enjoy yourself.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N3BIF on December 3, 2002
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We have priveleges ...... not rights.... it is the same sandbox
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W6IZT on December 3, 2002
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I'm not a contester per se, but I am a DXer and I do get on the bands during DX contest weekends as it is a great time to work new band/countries. Often one can work a DX staion in a rare country on most any band that you might need for that country and only have to send off one QSL to confirm several QSOs. It saves me a ton of greenstamps. Granted there is a lot of QRM, but this is really an opportunity to hone your operating skills. If the QRM is too much for you go to the WARC bands.
The wonderful thing about ham radio is that is is a multi dimensional hobby. I've enjoyed most aspects of the hobby from SSTV, to repeaters to satellite to CW DXing. Without this diversity I would probably have lost interest and moved onto something really exciting like raising bees, stamp collecting or maybe basket weaving.
I have a great respect for contesters, collectively as a group they have done us all a great service in pushing the envelope of technology. The cost effective high performance radios that we now enjoy are a result of the needs of the most demanding segment of DXers, the contester. Not to mention advances in Logging SW, and station accesories.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by AB8PR on December 3, 2002
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>>If a frequency is open on any band, and either a >>contester or a ragchewer gets there first, they >>have the right to operate on that frequency without >>interference, or as little as possible, until they >>relinguish it.
>Er...no. A read of Part 97 may be in order here.
>You certainly have a right to operate if you were
>there first, but you have no right to a clean,
>interference-free frequency at any given time.
>Scott W4PA
I'd suggest keeping the context of the discussion in mind before pointing out assumed flaws. No, we are not guaranteed an interference free frequency. The atmosphere, elbow bumping, and general band conditions are always going to prevent that. BUT, an operator has a right to operate without you /intentionally/ causing him interference, contester or ragchewer alike. You both may have the /privilege/ to the frequency, as someone deemed noteworthy to point out, but you do not have the /right/ to intentionally interfere with his transmissions with the hope of aquiring the frequency from him. Again, this is the point of the original posting, not whether or not contests have the right to be held or not. What is the topic of the discussion is that contesters should exercise the same courtesies as any other licensed ham. Simply contesting does not allow them to toss away the rulebook.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by K9PO on December 3, 2002
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I work the contests to get new stations but not as a serious contestor by any strech of the imagination. The rest of the time I am off of the HF bands as I cannot stand the banality of what happens there. But I occupy myself with my interests above 50MHz. Many people enjoy rag cheweing on HF and that is fine too, I just do not like it. It is a big spectrum and there is plenty of time, modes, and frequencies available. What is needed is consideration between all, perhaps some of the contests should move their times to Friday/Saturday so the rag chewers still get a weekend day, Sunday. Or better coordination between the nets and contestors, each net should appoint a coordinator to ensure there are no conflicts. Having a net on 20m during SSB sweepstakes is just asking for trouble so be prepared and set your net times and frequencies accordingly. And btw nets to do not own frequencies anymore than contest stations.
73,
K9PO
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 3, 2002
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To AE9B, K0XU and the other contest types:
I would support contesting on the WARC bands IF, AND ONLY IF, contests were limited to a SINGLE BAND at a time. There is simply no logic in permitting a few to make life miserable for the many. Nor is there any logic in letting a few bullies force the majority to retreat to the WARCs.
If you think anybody is going to support contesting on all bands at once, think again.
I'm simply tired of guys with 1.8 Khz filters sliding in 1.5 Kc away and blasting away with 1.21 Gigawatts, splattering over 4-6 Kc, cq contest.....etc.
I repeat, I think it is time to petition the FCC for a rule limiting contests to a SINGLE BAND. Two at the most.
Now, under KZ5A's "don't like it go somewhere else" philosophy, I might suggest that if you contersters don't like my SINGLE band rule.....go elsewhere!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by AA8X on December 3, 2002
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The attitude of KZ5A is one of the problems with ham radio. Too many contesters that don’t care about the non-contester.
Bob, AA8X
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K4IA on December 3, 2002
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Let them have their fun. At least the Contesters are passionate about Ham Radio. I also see them as leaders in the "building the better station" catagory.
If they give me a headache, how do I spell relief?
W...A...R...C
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Contesters with no respect!
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by N2NFG on December 3, 2002
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Oh boy, here we go again. I just can't get enough of the contesters vs. the rest of the ham population arguments. W9WHE, you seem to have it backwards. During contest weekends the bands are packed full from end to end, while during non contest periods there is lots of room. So, who is the majority and who is the minority? Duh! (BTW, it's maybe, not maby.) I once made a proposition on another thread that would be worth repeating. I think the contesters should designate at least one weekend a year (more if it calls for it) to do nothing but ragchew and have nets. The ragchews would let us get to know the folks we've only exchanged short bits of information with. The nets could cover all areas of contesting. Let's see, antennas, top band, running vs S&P, high power, low power, high vs low power, station layout and ergonomics, amps...the list of nets could be endless. If a majority of contesters choose to participate, this would require a lot of band space. So, all modes would be used, and since it's not a contest, the WARC bands would have to be utilized also. Now what would you complain about?
I think Ed, W1RFI had the best suggestion. There is just so much to do in ham radio today! I just can't muster any sympathy for the guy who lives in a little box on 3855 75th St. Come out and see the rest of the world! I just bought an ICOM 706MKIIG. (Boy, are these things affordable!) I'm finally going to get on HF mobile, CW, SSB, and the digital modes (parked, of course). Either in the house or on the road I can get in on the satellite action now. I just downloaded a FREE program to get in on meteor scatter and EME. Yes, I do enjoy ragchewing and I also check into some nets. But...if that's all there was to ham radio, I'd probably have lost interest a long time ago.
One final note. I have found that interference to contesters to be more of a problem than the other way around. No contester is EVER going to plunk down on a busy frequency and start calling. This is unproductive, and productivity is what the game is all about. On the other hand, I have heard on countless occasions DELIBERATE interference by hams who think they own a frequency, and damn the contesters who may be there before their net or sked starts. A prime example will be this weekend during the ARRL 160 meter contest. This is a very popular contest and the band fills up fast. Yet there is a group that fires up on 1850 SSB well after the start of the contest, ALWAYS right on top of a contester(s). They know that the CW contesters are there. They know that they are deliberatly interfering with them. Just give it a listen this weekend. I wish the FCC would too.
73, Bob
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RE: Contesters with no respect! BS!
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by WA4MJF on December 3, 2002
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Why would QRp ops get on 7040 kHz
which for many, many moons has been the
DX RTTY frequency.
Seems as if they're just askin' for
problems.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by WA4MJF on December 3, 2002
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The wide shift is 850 Hz. If the
Canadian station has never heard
850 Hz shift, then he must be a new
ham. 170 Hz shift did not become
popular until
the late 70s or early 80s.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N4SL on December 3, 2002
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Hey N2NFG, you were my very last QSO in the CW SS!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by AE9B on December 3, 2002
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W9WHE Says "If you think anybody is going to support contesting on all bands at once, think again."
10's of Thousands of Hams already do! Last contest..(CQWW CW) one of the biggest in the world, Several teams of operators had in excess of 10,000 qso's in one weekend. Hundreds of individual operators had several thousand contacts each. I would call that support.
W9WHE Says"I repeat, I think it is time to petition the FCC for a rule limiting contests to a SINGLE BAND. Two at the most. contests to a SINGLE BAND. Two at the most."
There will be a whole other crowd (maybe some of the current) who will complain about the 160M contest this weekend and the 10M contest next weekend. You can't make everyone happy. You suppose you'll be using 160M this weekend? You suppose you'll (just conicidentally) be using 10M the following weekend?
If you know (or assume based on past experiences)there is going to be difficulty communicating with the party you hope to communicate with on a certain day at a certain frequency, make other plans. Limiting contests to certain bands has not proven to be satisfactory to other anti-contesters.
I am ALL FOR the maximum amount of ham activity for every band by every licensed ham within their priveledges and within the rules for which they are licensed. I don't want to take away anyone's priveledges.. not censure anyone from making ham radio a wonderful and enjoyable experience. I think most hams would fall into this category or scenario, if the alternative was to "...petition the FCC for a rule limiting.." no matter who or what you'll be limiting.
SUPPORT? I think there is plenty of SUPPORT!
Someone had it right in an earlier post. If 10,000 of my friends are going to have a party and it happens to be loud. I may not like noise but I'm going to try to be there. Enjoy the party!
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Contesters with no respect!
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by KA2FIR on December 3, 2002
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I did notice something different this year during one of the phone contests, ssb on 40 as low as 7.008. Practice due diligence.
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Contesters with no respect!
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by WB2WIK on December 3, 2002
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N3HKN: Contesting = radiosporting, and has since the first contests more than seventy years ago. "Cheating?" Somewhere between ridiculous and impossible, especially with automation used today...computers checking computerized logs, cross checking and verifying thousands of contacts in seconds and spitting out discrepancies for review.
The likelihood that someone operated illegally (other than possibly excessive power, which is awfully hard to determine or verify) to achieve a higher score is about the same as him setting himself on fire to draw attention. Operating the wrong mode in the wrong subband, or being where one shouldn't be, is no way to increase score and nobody would intentionally do that.
Accidentally? Sure. Every active DXer has transmitted on the "wrong VFO" at least once!
WB2WIK/6
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Contesters with no respect!
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by KB5DPE on December 3, 2002
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Out of 54 posts (at this time), only ONE poster that uses common sense. Thank you AB8PR. This is NOT a shining testimonial to ham radio.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 3, 2002
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To AE9B:
Actually, your implication that I (and others) will co-incidentally [READ DELIBERATELY] be on 160 or 10 ragchewing during the contest is a shining example of why people do not like contester attitude. YOU PRESUME THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE THERE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CONTEST! Wrong.
What in the world makes you mean-spirited contester types think that because you schedule a contest, that the rest of us just have to "go elsewhere"?
You PRESUME that contesters are important enough chase. Wrong again. You PRESUME that ordinary guys like me would go looking for a problem. Wrong yet again.
I would no more go looking to create a problem then you would. However, you do ascribe malicious motive TO ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOUR NARROW MINDED VIEWS. And that, my friend, is classic contester attitude.
Your approach reminds me of the Jessie Jackson retort - "If you disagree with me - you must be racist".
Oh, and since you like to attack my spelling, I note that you repeat yourself in your post. I guess that is just carry-over from "CQ contest, CQ contest".
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Contesters with no respect!
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by KF4DDJ on December 3, 2002
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I get a kick out of reading these articles. I enjoy hamradio for what it is and I also use it for what I can. If something is inconvenient, I don't complain, I move on and find a different way to communicate! This hobby has just started, even though it has been around for YEARS!
Thanks
Scott Griffith
For all of you people who want to complain using their keyboard or their mouth. Shut the radio off, sit back, and read the book of Proverbs.
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Contesters with no respect!
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by N9RV on December 3, 2002
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Certainly courtesy is desirable. We're all sharing the bands, after all.
The problem is that people's definitions of courtesy are so far apart that they can't even relate to each other. If 20m SSB is crowded, a contester is content to see the QRM go no higher than s9. With maybe 2,500 stations sharing the same space, you can expect no less. But some non-contesters want their meter to read zero, and will police +/- 3 khz to try to make that happen. That's where the ill will comes about.
The kind of courtesy you can expect and return driving down a rural highway in Iowa is impossible to support on the Dan Ryan freeway (Chicago) during rush hour, after all.
To a contester, courtesy involves keeping your signal as clean as possible, not "firing up" on top of QSOs (or other contesters) taking place, and generally acting in a professional manner. In the contesting community, we have a ways to go sometimes just getting that far. But courtesy does not require a contester to move away from an established frequency any more than anyone else.
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K7QL on December 3, 2002
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And I was just getting ready to get active on HF again...
MMMMMMaybe...not...
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K2AXX on December 3, 2002
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If QRM on your favorite band is a problem, just improve your station! You ain't gonna stop the contest. The best you could hope for is to be WAAAY louder than the contesters battling around you. Doing that, THEY will move. Fight fire with fire, I say. Stacked monobanders / gain antennas, big amps (all legal limit)... that's the right way.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by M5LRO on December 3, 2002
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To: N0JVT
Thank-you so much for getting my point exactly.
I also note several others realise my comments are aimed at all contesters not just SSB but also the CW boys. They can be as bad as each other!!!
Over here in the UK 40 meters is 7.000 - 7.100 the bottom 40khz being aimed at CW. Now I fully understand the needs of the contest station when the band is busy but why the heck should I turn off my radio when there is a contest on. 40 meters is my favourite band why should I be forced to move further and further down the band on CW. I had tried to use J3E that same evening but could not move in that portion of the band.
I would also like to state that CW does not cut through the QRM when there is a contester who does not listen and just stomps all over an existing QSO.
Listen Listen and Listen again.
Best to all as always.
Chris M5LRO
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KL7IPV on December 3, 2002
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I have been saying for years the simple answer is provided by the entities that support the contests. All they have to do is limit the portions of the band the contester is to use. Maybe just not using the top and bottom 25KHz of each band would then leave the non-contesters alone. With the days of computer logging upon us, the frequency used would be logged automatically and if the contester went out of the band limits for the contest, that contact would not count. Could it be easier than that? Why is the answer always " Use the WARC bands"? What about those that don't have antennas for the WARC bands? Are they to be persona no grata for that? Just limit the frequencies to use and leave the others some space. And why does this question arise so often if it isn't a real problem?
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by VE7NGR on December 3, 2002
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WA4MJF: I have been a ham since 1996. In any case, it's still true that wide shift RTTY is currently used little, if at all, on the amateur bands. The late 70's/early 80's was 20+ years ago. BTW, I was born in 1974, so that time period was a long time ago to me! :-)
Thanks for the correction on the wide shift - I couldn't remember which it was and guessed wrong. However, 850 Hz is still nowhere near 4 kHz. I'm still curious where the 4 kHz figure comes from.
73, Brian
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KI9A on December 3, 2002
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Yeah, bull#$$%^!
During the ARRL November Sweepstakes, 3rd weekend in Nov., I had the following happen to me:
1) On 14.292, with no other station around for 3-4KC, I called CQ-contest. Some idiot taped it & played it back. No problem, I let him call CQ & answered the calls, kinda neat. But, there is an example of a non-contester harrasing me.
2) on 7.164, I had a clown repeating "shut-up, shut-up" after my CQ's. My guess, a non-contester.
3) on 7.164, there was clown shouting obcenities at me, made me blush, & I'm a construction worker.
4) on 14.250, a guy came on & ID'ed, told me a net was going to start in 10 min on that freq, & asked if I would be kind enough to move. I told him I'd hold the freq until the net started, then move. I was rewarded with 5 QSO's from the group. THAT IS THE WAY WE NEED TO DO THIS! CO-OPERATE!
If you don't like contesting, dont do it. But dammit, don't ridicule us for enjoying it.
As far band limits. Thats fine, as long as you even TRY to have a regular QSO in the contest portion of the bands, nets included! Fair is fair, right? ;-)
73-Chuck KI9A
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by AE9B on December 3, 2002
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W9WHE Said,"YOU PRESUME THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE THERE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CONTEST! Wrong."
Never suggested that. You commented that a single or two band contest would be a possible solution. I say you're wrong. Next week people will complain about the Contest on 160M the following week people will complain about the contest on 10M. If you know now that you want to occupy a piece of the spectrum during those contest times... let me forewarn you. There will be contesters on the air. If you have a hard time making contacts during a contest, you may want to make other plans.
I will bow out gracefully. Just for the record,You were the one to start with the calling out of people (or callsigns). If you don't want people to be defensive of something they believe in strongly then don't name them directly.
W9WHE said, "Oh, and since you like to attack my spelling, I note that you repeat yourself in your post. I guess that is just carry-over from "CQ contest, CQ contest". "
Look again before you directly accuse someone of something. You're WRONG... AGAIN!
"73" to all the hams in the world may we all celebrate a wonderful love filled Holiday and contest season. God Bless America!
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Thanks to contesters
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by KF6IIU on December 3, 2002
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I dunno about contesters in the CW part of the band - never heard any.
Thanks to most of the big CQWW contest guns - it's a good way for a little guy like me wth 100 W and a dipole to pick up 10 or 15 new countries in one weekend. I sincerely appreciate the contesters that take the trouble to QSL.
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by N6TR on December 3, 2002
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Last weekend, the CQ WW CW contest took place. Based upon the log checking database, something like 20,000 people probably took part in this contest. Any time 20,000 people try to use the radio at the same time, there is going to be congestion.
Certainly this isn't an excuse to operate outside your license - but there will be pressure put upon gentleman agreements and other traditional frequency arrangements. Simply put, supply of frequencies didn't meet the demand and congestion occurs.
There are probably eight or so contests that create this level of congestion. The ARRL DX (CW and SSB), Field Day, CQ WW DX (CW and SSB), CQ WPX (CW and SSB) and the ARRL SS (CW and SSB). These contests will always have a major impact to the bands simply because of the activity levels. Four of these contests occured during the past 5 or 6 weeks, so this is the time of year that anti-contesting fever seems to peak.
One of the PR moves contesting has supported is excluding WRTC bands from contesting. This is a double edge sword as the activity levels on those bands probably have suffered. However, knowing when one of the above contests is going to take place and planning to be on the WRTC bands will result in a significant reduction in frustration for many stations.
Respectively submitted:
N6TR Tree - aka: a contester (and DXer and weak signal guy on VHF).
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Contesters with no respect!
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by WV4I on December 3, 2002
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This is 'great' stuff, and I use the adjective loosely. Just scanning the comments posted here merits some technical reply. Refreshing, huh?
Yes, I consider 500hz my wide filter setting for CW contest type band conditions, with 250hz my narrow setting. Thus, unless we're basically on the SAME freq, I will NOT hear you. If you're serious about CW, contester or not, narrow filters are a must.
Similarly, I consider 1.9khc to be a wide filter for DX SSB at any time. If the QRM, band conditions dictate, receiver bandwidth can be effectively further narrowed using varible BPF's, etc..
On both CW and SSB, filters used properly are also a very effective technique for both raising the signal/noise ratio of the target station, and for getting right on such station's frequency, and hopefully no other nearby.
I'm sure many hams, both in the US and elsewhere, have never considered that on 40M, DX SSB QSO's during BC station openings to the US frequently require that US stations LISTEN somewhere other then the 40M SSB subband, i.e. listen below 7.150, meanwhile TRANSMITTING on/above 7.150 in the 40M US phone band. Thus, SPLIT operation is required. This is actually pretty slick, and if you have not tried it you should.
Contests offer a great opportunity to test your own operating skills, your equipment, and your antenna system's performance. As one reviewer accurately noted, some bands (10M/15M) are actually open more, to locations that might surprise you, and merely lack ops. Ditto for 80M/160M.
CU on the bands......
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Contesters with no respect!
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by WN3VAW on December 3, 2002
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Amazing how few people in this thread actually answered Chris's comments directly instead of going off on their own agendas...
Chris, I must agree with you (and a few others) that I've noticed the EU & other DX stations traveling lower and lower on 40 meters than I can recall to work SSB split during a contest. Sure seemed once rare to find (even in a contest) phone signals below about 7035-7040, but I heard some as far down as 7005 in the CQ WW.
So long as band plans are voluntary, they will be bent or broken by some, on the grounds that since it's legal, they can do it. That's human nature.
But I'd hate to see voluntary band plans be mandated by the various governments. Much better to police it amongst ourselves.
Therefore, I suggest you contact the appropriate DX contest organizers (including CQ & ARRL) and request that they modify the contest rules to require stations to adhere to the voluntary band plans in place. And ask others to do so. If you can make a strong argument, and you get support from the contest community, then that change may take place. But it won't happen until those concerned make their concerns known to the appropriate people.
73, ron wn3vaw
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K3TD on December 3, 2002
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Lighten up and give us a Q ... who knows, you may end up enjoying the contest!
Good luck and 73,
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K3TD on December 3, 2002
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Lighten up and give us a Q ... who knows, you may end up enjoying the contest!
Good luck and 73,
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KA4KOE on December 4, 2002
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!
C'mon I hear this all the time when my 4 year old has a tantrum!!!
Behave or I'm getting Mr. Switch.
P
KA4KOE
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Contesters with no respect!
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Anonymous post on December 4, 2002
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If anybody wondered why there are 10kw amps out there, they shouldn't wonder anymore after reading all this crap.
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Contesters with no respect!
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by N9CHZ on December 4, 2002
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Gee is this what I look forward to when I upgrade so I can get on the HF band's.... Maybe I'll just stay where I'm at.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N8IK on December 4, 2002
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As I was S&Ping up the band in the CQWW CW looking for that juicy DX, I ran across another op calling CQ with a 3x3 at about 8wpm. Obviously he was not contesting but I stopped anyway for a break, had a nice slow chat, told him about the contest, and moved on. Sure my rate dropped like a rock but who cares? We're having fun and someday he might be another contester.
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by W9WHE on December 4, 2002
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To AE9B:
Once again, YOUR OWN WORDS prove my point! You said:
"let me forewarn you. There will be contesters on the air. If you have a hard time making contacts during a contest, you may want to make other plans.
1) WHY, just because you "contesters" are on the air should I have trouble working other stations?
ANSWER: Could that be because contesters don't care who they QRM?
2) MORE IMPORTANTLY, why should I have to "make other plans"?
HINT: The answer is NOT because you contesters "own" the spectrum or have any superior right to be there (unless you get there first, of course)
It is HIGH TIME contesters figured this out!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 4, 2002
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KL7IPV has another EXCELLENT suggestion! My complements.
Contesters could avoid creating such hostility by merely limiting the contest to PART (ie half) of each band. Any contacts outside of the range would not count.
Now, would that be so bad? That most assuredly would be a Rodney King solution (can't we all just get along?) of Solomon wisdom.
Now.....what are the chances?
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by KZ5A on December 4, 2002
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What a fun thread. I find it reasuring that most of the respondents expressed mature, logical views regarding the situation created on the bands by contests. I was going to list those expressing views I consider to be most thoughtful and productive but the list got too long.
I did find an interesting concept here that might need addtional discussion but probably as another thread.
I have always assumed that the exclusion of the WARC bands from contesting was done to accomodate the non-contesting hams and that the exclusion was appreciated by the non-contesting ham community.
Now I'm wondering.
I realize that the comments on this thread probably do not well represent the views of the more literate members of the non-contesting ham community and I would be interested in hearing those.
From my perspective, as someone who is primarily involved in HF DXing and contesting these days, the WARC bands are of little interest. There is some interesting DX there but not enough for me to justify purchasing or building antennas. I have more pressing antenna needs like a better 75 and 160M setup.
However if those bands were open to contesting I would definately add them to my stations capabilities.
My thought is that if the WARC bands are not generally appreciated as a refuge from contests I think they should be opened to contests to encourage more stations to equip for them and to get more activity.
Are there a lot operators out there that move to the WARCs to escape crowded contest bands?
Anyway I think I'll propose this inquiry as a new thread.
Back to this thread. One of the things I found most interesting in this thread is notable for it's absence. You don't hear contesters whining about folks having non-contest QSOs, at least exclusive of deliberate interference situations.
During the recent CQWW Phone I operated 20m single band. For most of Saturday there was a group on abt 14.180 that managed to conduct normal QSOs (a net?) pretty much all day. They were there chatting away every time I did a S&P sweep. So it is possible to have normal QSOs during contests.
These guys were putting out strong signals and a couple of them had really outstanding audio quality indicating high quality station setups. This observation makes me think about my alternate operating possition, a 60s vintage Halli/Heath station. It's a blast to operate under non-contest conditions but on contest days I'd be lucky find a few readable signals. This is not a problem caused by rude contesters, its a problem caused by poor RX performance.
I wonder if some of the folks who complain most bitterly about contests aren't suffering from the impacts of stations inadequate to deal with contest signal conditions.
If you consider that situation along with the unfortunate but fundemental tendency in human nature to become irate and self-rightious when we are blaming other people for our own limitations, you can understand where some of the more rabid anti-contesters are coming from.
It is sort of a "station envy" situation. I think in the future I'll think of this as the "W9WHE syndrome".
And as a last thought, I wonder if W9WHE expects that everyone else should stay off of the highways during rush hour so that he isn't impacted by rush hour traffic jams?
73 to all Jack KZ5A
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by K1OU on December 4, 2002
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I think KZ5A is exactly right. If people have no interest in going to the WARC bands because they own a certainly frequency and will defend it to tooth and nail three kcs either side, perhaps the WARC bands ARE a viable option.
Another poster was exactly correct in the opinion that if you have a signal that commands respect, you won't get squashed like a bug. This is not a free pass to deliberately quirm a weak signal, but it serves absolutely no purpose to plop down on somebody and set up shop. Maybe it is just a classic case of G5RVattwentyfeettenwattitis.
Yes, there are rude contesters. However, maybe there should be some clean-up time with the non-contesters who sound like CB'ers in their on-air efforts to address the problem.
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by AA9KK on December 4, 2002
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To Chuck, KI9A, concerning your December 3, 2002 message.
Paragraph 4) reads: on 14.250, a guy came on & ID'ed, told me a net was going to start in 10 min on that freq, & asked if I would be kind enough to move. I told him I'd hold the freq until the net started, then move. I was rewarded with 5 QSO's from the group. THAT IS THE WAY WE NEED TO DO THIS! CO-OPERATE!
Chuck, after reading this, you made my day! I don't contest myself but those net stations sure handled it well. Just learned a lesson on how to handle a situation I may encounter in future operating. Thanx!
73,
Neil
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by NY7Q on December 4, 2002
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O God almighty (thats a prayer) if hams don't have any thing to cry about, they just arent happy. When I work CW (most often) I just narrow the sigs down and enjoy my CW. If it bothers SSB OPS in the CW Portion of band, "OH WELL"
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by W9WHE on December 4, 2002
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Well Jack (KZ5A)
Hummm...station envy?
Well, if my Yaesu FT-1000 MP MK-V with 2.0 Khz Xtal filters in BOTH of the the IF stages is inadequate, then the problem is not on my end!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 4, 2002
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KZ5A:
I see from YOUR contest profile, we use the same radio (MK-V)...my amp is an Alpha 99, so you tell me, think I suffer from "station envy"?
Or is it just that you feel "I'm a contester, hear me roar?
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N8UW on December 4, 2002
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Folks,
1. If I casually QSO a contest station, don't I need to submit at least a checklog for the 'tester to get points?
2. Where can I get a copy of the "gentlemen's agreement?" I've not seen a comprehensive listing, they all seem to be mode/interest specific.
BTW, about "G5RVattwentyfeettenwattitis" - my G5RV at 35 with 100W was fun in the CW SS and for casual operation. But I don't cry because I can't run with the big dogs.
Thanks....Chuck, Vegetarian Ham
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by K2AXX on December 4, 2002
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W9WHE - I can't believe you actually have the AUDACITY to think it's OK to call for LIMITS on RADIO ACTIVITY. How long has the ARRL been fighting for KEEPING what we've already got? Limiting activity simply gives competing services even MORE reason to buy out our asses.
So WHAT if you can't hold a QSO when you want, where you want! Tough. If there were a solar flare, keeping you from holding court - would you bitch like this to NOAA and have them tell the sun to cut it out?
Sheesh.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N6TR on December 4, 2002
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N8UW asks:
1. If I casually QSO a contest station, don't I need to submit at least a checklog for the 'tester to get points?
Not in most contests. There are a few that do require verification from both ends of the contact.
2. Where can I get a copy of the "gentlemen's agreement?" I've not seen a comprehensive listing, they all seem to be mode/interest specific.
Probably the ARRL published band plans is the best place to start.
BTW, about "G5RVattwentyfeettenwattitis" - my G5RV at 35 with 100W was fun in the CW SS and for casual operation. But I don't cry because I can't run with the big dogs.
Congrats on your 100 QSOs. Sorry we didn't manage a QSO - I was at W5WMU running 5 watts.
And to the shouting match - I think that there has been more friction on this list than there was during some of the recent contests! Again, it is impossible for 20,000+ people to use the bands without some friction - and it is too bad that a few bad apples end up making people think all contesters are idiots.
73 Tree N6TR
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N2MG on December 4, 2002
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W9WHE writes:
<< Contesters could avoid creating such hostility by merely limiting the contest to PART (ie half) of each band. Any contacts outside of the range would not count. >>
As a contester, I agree. I promise to operate only in the lower half of the band every CW contest and only the upper half every SSB contest.
Non-contesters can have the other half.
73 Mike N2MG
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N2MG on December 4, 2002
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W9WHE yells:
<< YOU PRESUME THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE THERE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CONTEST! Wrong. >>
It seems that YOU, sir, presume that contesters have no rights to use the bands. If contesters fill a section of the band and you come upon it and cannot find a frequency to have a QSO, does that make contesting wrong? If contesters can tolerate high level of QRM and you cannot, does that make them wrong?
Why would one ever promote the idea that contesters be limited in their enthusiasm to utilize the spectrum? Is rag chewing so much more important? Is the 3 weekends a year that the phone bands fill up so overwhelmingly intolerable that one insists on requesting victim status and thus be declared a protected minority deserving of special considerations?
73 Mike N2MG
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by N6TR on December 4, 2002
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Question to W9WHE:
Were you on the air during any of the recent contests and experience anything negative in your interactions with those who were on the air?
73 Tree N6TR
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by W5MX on December 4, 2002
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Very interesting discussion.
My hunch is that, SOME of those who are the "anti-contesters" either:
A. Don't posess adequate skills necessary to contest.
B. Lack a competetive spirit.
C. Have absolutely nothing else to do other than get on the radio.
D. Are chronic complainers. AKA "Whiners".
When the band conditions are lousy, I find something else to do. Discover a new hobby, I have about 10. Maybe spend some time with your family, I do. There are other things in life BESIDES ham radio.
Personally, if the band was so over crowded and it was difficult to carry on a QSO, I would try another method of communication. If communication was that urgent, I would use e-mail, landline or maybe the opposite mode of the contest (cw during an ssb test, vice versa). There are relatively few weekends a year where MAJOR contests get to the point where the bands are extremely crowded. Even at that, some of those are band specific (10m test, 160m test,etc). There's only what, maybe 340+ days of the year without major contests taking place? That's not enough time for non-contesters to operate? GEEEZ, I wish there were more contests!
Maybe turn the radio off that rare weekend when contest QRM is that bad or better yet, join in! You just might like it.
We all have ham radio in common, with some specific versions of it being to our liking. Try to be a little understanding and possibly even sensitive about one anothers choices.
"Can't we all just get along" ;-)
73's all
Bryan W5MX
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by KG4BOD on December 4, 2002
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All the in-fighting, bickering and complaining is what turns people off from amateur radio. I dropped my membership from a local club, because everybody bitched, whined and pointed fingers at the "other guys." It is so thick, that one "group" of hams sit in one section of the meeting room, and other "group" sits amongst themselves. And they all bicker about "what's wrong with the other guys." Hey, lighten up! Yes, follow rules and bandplans, but gimme a break! This is a hobby, a pastime, it's supposed to be fun. Nobody gets special use of public airwaves because of their operating mode... it's all to be shared. Have fun!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N8UZE on December 4, 2002
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Actually, whenever I've been scanning the bands during contests, I've found both contesters and rag chewers out there on the same band. There is room for both. Planning ahead does help. If you have a schedule with someone, set up a contingency plan just in case you can't operate on your normal frequency or find a clear frequency on your usual band. Basically contesters have to do a similar thing. Many change bands earlier than they want to simply because the band gets too crowded. All of us need to learn to adapt to changing activity patterns as well as propagation patterns, etc.
I think it is a matter of perspective. A person gets used to being able to do the same thing at the same place at the same time. Such activities give us a feeling of security. When something disrupts our schedules, it unsettles us and this is expressed as complaints. This is human nature. The key is learn to relax and go with the flow.
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by N2MG on December 4, 2002
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Think of contests as "rush hour". Everyone has a right to be on the road and at some times there a lot more drivers than some are comfortable with. Do we tell those with 8-5 jobs that they cannot be on the highways just so that gramma and grampa can have the road to themselves like they do at 2PM? That they cannot use certain roads (like interstates) or that they need to be relegated to the slow lane?
Most everyone learns what rush hour is. Then they deal with it. Some never learn I suppose.
Mike N2MG
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by KZ5A on December 4, 2002
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W9WHE,
Well you are running pretty much the same station I am so guess the problem is not the station.
I managed to have a few hundred contacts in the last CQWW Phone including several which evolved into pleasant conversations. For me, a brief QSO is a nice break during a contest. Actually, trying to avoid having too many chit chats and trashing my rate is a challange when the bands are really good. And when rates are low... a short QSO is more fun than calling CQ umpteen times and might serve better to draw new callers anyway (less dead air).
With that fine station I can't understand why having a QSO on a contest day is such a problem for you. I hope you are able to resolve the issue and maybe even join the fun.
73 de Jack KZ5A
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by WB2TPS on December 5, 2002
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This contest vs. no contest debate is missing an important point.
Cell phones, the Internet, Cable and Satellite TV have changed
Communication and information options for everyone.
Ham Radio is no longer “the” source for out of the region information and personal contact.
Listen on the bands. They are quiet. There are no more phone patches, fewer personal QSO’s, CW activity is way down and even VHF FM activity is off.
The activity on this forum speaks volumes about band usage.
Many Hams have discovered the challenge of propagation vagaries and competition. DXCC submissions are at an all time high. County hunting, IOTA, and GRID square chasing are the rage. There are more contests of every kind and mode then in years past. Even the AM’ers have turned their meets into contests.
These activities give new lifeblood to the hobby and have attracted new members.
Try the 160M contest. It is slow paced and QRM is light. I do it with 100watts and a crummy antenna. It’s a lot of fun.
PS: I’ve purposely excluded our very important emergency communications from this note. Enlist contesters for emergency nets. They get it right the first time and move quickly.
Jim
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by K8ENS on December 5, 2002
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This is a somewhat humorous issue...and lots of prose has been expended on its discussion...the issue boils down to just few observations... contesters have approached contests the same way for the last 47 years that I have been active...YOU DO ANYTHING FOR MORE POINTS.
Anyone else on the band has no rights. They go anywhere..even if on top of another qso in prgress...Its probably a testosterone issue... they probably behave that way in all other arenas as well...ITS MINE- GET OUT OF MY WAY OR I'LL RUN YOU OVER...
The only way to coexist with them is not to...get off the band while the animals are playing and resume when they have fallen off their thrones...or go to the WARC bands...proof?? you ask what proof do I have.... well you dont see them "competing" on the warc bands ... these are usually shared bands where amateur activity is no higher then secondary...and the "FATHERS" know not to let 'em go there and qrm the primary holders !!!
True hams....just either qrt or migrate to warc...
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 5, 2002
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Mark (K2AAX) says:
"I can't believe you actually have the AUDACITY to think it's OK to call for LIMITS on RADIO ACTIVITY".
To that, I say Mark, most adults realize that "more is not allways better". And more chaos, is not better.
Mark (K2AAX) also says:
"So WHAT if you can't hold a QSO when you want, where you want! Tough."
Mark, what if I used YOUR OWN words and said: "So WHAT if you can't hold A CONTEST when you want, where you want! Tough!
What would you say? Its OK, we ALL already know the answer! Attitudes like yours merely rachet up hostility.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 5, 2002
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K1OU says:
"if you have a signal that commands respect, you won't get squashed like a bug".
Why do so many contesers think that just because they "think" they have a "big signal" that "commands respect" [read big ego], they can "squash" other stations?
If there ever was a philosophy that rachets up hostility, this is it! Ham radio is not law of the jungle! Under the rules, might does not make right!
Just because my Alpha 99 is capable of a "big signal" which "commands respect" and thereby prevent me from "being squashed like a bug", does not mean that I can push around a station with a smaller signal.
That type of attitude, is EXACTLY why there is such hostility between contesters and the rest of us.
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by N4GI on December 5, 2002
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W9WHE states:
<"To that, I say Mark, most adults realize that "more is not allways better". And more chaos, is not better.">
Chaos? Where do you hear chaos during contests? Do you have any recorded sound files you could share with me as an example?
Funny, for the most part all I usually hear during contests is top-notch, skilled, efficient operating.
How would it be possible for stations to make several thousand contacts in 48 hours if the entire contest event was simply "CHAOS" as you describe?
73,
Blake N4GI
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by K2AXX on December 5, 2002
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my actual words (NOT a paraphrase, as you restated) were:
"So WHAT if you can't hold a QSO when you want, where you want! Tough. If there were a solar flare, keeping you from holding court - would you bitch like this to NOAA and have them tell the sun to cut it out? "
You obviously have a good quality station, and an efficient antenna system to handle the 1500w power you run. Therefore, I have to assume your equipment can withstand competition in our spectrum. Hell - your system is way better than I can hope to have. Yet, I make do. Where is our difference?
We ALL have to deal with inconsiderate, rude and opressive operators from time-to-time. To label EVERYONE that interferes with us as JERKS is a bit reactionary.
Fundamentally, I agree with you. Contests are mayhem. Everyone who's responded to this thread is in 100% agreement! There's no difference between us there.
Where we differ, is how to handle it. You propose legislating it. I propose self-regulating it. How's that?
1) If something bugs you that occurs on the air - remember it's a hobby and go do something else. It's not your RIGHT to uninterrupted communications, it's a privelege.
If that's not satisfactory:
2) Make certain you try handling it yourself BEFORE blowing em in. We're almost all adults here. If someone WON'T stop interrupting you - then light a fire. And let them know you will be doing so.
3) If someone interrupts your existing communications - record the interloper - and report them to the FCC. Make copious notes. Make sure you've dotted your i... Riley has been burned once by incorrect information. 146.52 comes to mind...
SO - I don't see us being that far apart on this issue.
What I DO see, is that you are being somewhat unreasonable about it. The arguments you make ANTI-Contesting are just as emotionally-charged as those making PRO-Contesting arguments. But we all have to respect that these opinions exist.
The last of my $.02 (depriciating daily with market fluctuation)
Mark, K2AXX
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by AB8PR on December 5, 2002
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Another thought to add to the fire:
Contesting has been likened to radiosporting. Unfortunately, here's the problem:
Football is played on a football field.
Basketball is played on a basketball court.
Hockey is played in a hockey rink.
Golf is played on a golf course.
Soccer is played on a soccer field.
Neither of these sports can be played on the other's field, so you never have a conflict with a football team taking over a soccer team's field.
Now..
Ham contests are held on the ham bands.
Casual operations are held on the ham bands.
With both activities being on the same playing field, you're bound to have one side or the other crying foul, offsides. Fact of the matter is, there /is/ no offsides penalty in ham radio. (Excluding operating the wrong mode in the wrong subband.) Everyone has the privilege granted to them by their license to operate on the ham bands (unless of course you're a General trying to operate in the Advanced/Extra portions, etc.) Contesting, by the Part 97 rules, is no different than DX chasing, or ragchewing, or experimental communications, or talking about the weather in Pango Pango. Nothing illegal about it; it's legitimate operations. It is, as a participant has stated, the ham radio equivalent of rush hour. Rush hour happens. I happen to be an Eight to Fiver myself, and I will often engage in very colorful tirades about other drivers on the road, but I do it in the confines of my car. No sense arguing with other drivers about it, for it only flares tempers, and begins a series of offensives and counter-offensives while both sides defend their right to drive during rush hour. Not unlike what we have observed here.
I believe the point I am trying to make is that the argument will always go on. So long as either side accepts the fact that the other has a privilege to operate, and that they respect the other side when they have found an open spot to operate on, harmony will reign. We've already seen the alternative. :)
73
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by K1OU on December 5, 2002
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W9WHE,
You missed my point entirely. When I submitted that if you have a large signal, you won't get squashed like a bug, I was simply stating that if you are loud enough, nobody in their right mind or with any self-respect is going to bother you. It is a simple fact.
This is not about ego, or law of the jungle, or anything else you want to use in vain to support your argument that is chock full of screaming. If you would have read everything I had to say, you would see that I am no fan whatsover of rude operating practices. Perhaps it would be of great benefit for you to turn off your computer and go get a massage.
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by K1OU on December 5, 2002
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Also W9WHE,
If you want to see another side of this, go to the November CQ contest reflector and read the thread called "Harassment". Afterwards, get back to us and justify that it is okay for non-contestors to cause havoc. My point is, there is enough blame to go around for all parties.
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on December 5, 2002
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Another ponderous list of complaints about contesting.
After all the complaints die down, what changes? Exactly what changed after the last contest bashing article, NOTHING!
This article complaining about CW in the SSB portion of 40 meters was quite funny since it followed another article complaining about SSB signals in the CW portion of 40 meters.
This all makes as much sense as complaining about summer time QRN on the low bands.
If you don’t like the QRM, or QRN, on particular band, or portion of a band, change where you operate, or be miserable, and stay where you don’t like it.
If you choose to be miserable, by all means, keep complaining--many of the complaints are great entertainment!
Bob
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by KL7IPV on December 6, 2002
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I still haven't seen an answer. When the contests are on, I stay off. I have had enough run-ins with "big amp" contesters since 1965 that I gave up. The question still is: " Why can't the sponsor of a contest set the band limits for use and enforce them? Why can't the sponsor say that a certain contest will only occur between certain frequencies and allow some of the band for non contest use"? I keep hearing that it isn't right to limit the use of the frequencies. It is right and also legal for a sponsor to say that the contest will occur at a certain time, certain date and also on specific frequencies. If the date, time or frequency is violated, the contester loses that contact . Is that so tough? Why must it come down to, "if you don't like contests, get off or go to the WARC bands". Aren't YOU then setting the same limits for me that you don't want for yourself? If my antennas won't tune to the WARC bands; I guess you are telling me, "Tough, then go away until we are done". Strange. I thought that I read in this thread that harmony and working together would solve the problem. At what point does "harmony" become synonymous with "go to the WARC bands"? Now I think I know why the internet has such a drawing power to some hams.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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by AE9B on December 6, 2002
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Franks asksKL7IPV," The question still is: " Why can't the sponsor of a contest set the band limits for use and enforce them? Why can't the sponsor say that a certain contest will only occur between certain frequencies and allow some of the band for non contest use"?
I suppose the sponsors could set whatever limits they wish. As for enforcement of them.. I don't think the contesters would break the band type rules but the sponsors are not enforcement officials. Other than disqualification (which I don't think has ever happened) they don't have any more authority than you and me.
I'm not a contest sponsor but like many things in life, once a set of rules have been established (like CQWW and many others) it is difficult to change. Our society is opposed to change for the most part.
That was an attempt to answer KL7IPV's question.
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by KZ5A on December 6, 2002
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In a era when many of the segments of the ham radio hobby are seeing declining activity levels, contesting is steadily growing in popularity. For many hams, including myself, it's the most fun you can have with a radio.
There are no rational arguments against contesting, or at least none have been presented in this thread.
On the other hand.....
Contests do not keep non participants from operating.
Contests bring stations and countries on the air that are rarely on the air otherwise.
Contests are about the only time the bands are anywhere near "fully utilized", which helps a lot with justifying ham's need for all that valuable spectrum.
Contesting motivates many hams, again including myself, to focus a lot of energy on improving their station and operating skills.
So I have no sympathy for the whiners complaining about contesting. These folks would probably be whining about something else if they wern't whining about contesting. Maybe whining is their other hobby.
73 to all (including the whiners) KZ5A
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Contesters with no respect!
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by ON5MF on December 6, 2002
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Can someone archive this thread and keep it so we can use it again after the next CQ WPX an CQ WW contests ?
So we won't have to go through this discussion again and again and again...
73
Jo ON5MF
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 6, 2002
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Four big Myths that contesters propagate to justify contests:
1) "Contests are the only time the bands are anywhere near fully utilized". Nonsence. During a contest, the bands are way OVER crowded. Chaos and law of the jungle reighn supreme.
2) "Contests somehow prevent re-assignment of HF spectrum". More nonsence. There no commercial desire for HF spectrum (below 30 Mhz) because of vulnerability to Solar and geomagnetic effects. When was the last time FCC was petitioned by commercial users for anything below 30 Mhz???? The only part of the spectrum coveted by commercial users is above 30 Mhz.
3) "Contests do not keep anyone from operating". Even more nonsence! If you are a QRP guy, is there ANY chance you will even try to operate during a contest? Pointless. As others have said, you will get "squashed like a bug". Give me a break! Moreover, many Ops dodn't even bother turning on the radio during a contest because they do not care to have "CQ contest...CQ contest blabbered all over their QSO.
4) "There are no rational arguments against contesting". This is the biggest load of all! Anyone that can read the above can see the rational arguments. Turning this argument around, one might say that there are no rational arguments FOR contests, because they create so much hostility in an otherwise civil (75m excluded) hobby!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KL7IPV on December 6, 2002
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To AE9B, thank you. In this age of computerized logging, the frequency used during a contest could be part of the automatic logging. If the log showed a contester using a part of the frequency the sponsor has designated as out of the contest band, it would be disallowed. The contester would not be disqualified, but that portion of his log would not count. I know we are slow to change (witness the CW efforts) but I can think of no other way to get harmony on the bands. I know MOST contesters are the same gentle people we meet day after day, but it seems also to bring out the worst in some who contest with no regard to others as long as THEY can make points. No amount of cajoling will deter or reform these people. Those are the ones who contimue to cause the problems that cause threads like this to keep coming up. As long as THEY want to rule the airways as any cost, the sponsors are the only ones left with the ability to make the change. Until then, the only time I enter a contest is 10-X. There seems to be more harmony there but sadly I still encounter the fools who have forgotten about courtesy or listening first. If you hear me on, ask and I will relinquish the frequency to you. It doesn't make much difference to me where I operate. My life doesn't depend on winning a contest. Wouldn't it be great if that were true for ALL contesters?
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W5MX on December 6, 2002
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To quote W9WHE: "During a contest, the bands are way OVER crowded. Chaos and law of the jungle reighn supreme."
Personally I love it! One of the major challenges of contesting. Only good listening and operating skills, perserverence, and determination to overcome adversity will get you through that. THAT'S called competition
under adverse conditions.
Imagine:
NASCAR driver: "He cut me off!" or "His car is faster than mine"
Hockey player: "He hit me!"
Baseball player: "He threw me a curve ball!"
Soccer player: "It's cold and raining outside"
Golfer: "The grass is too deep in the rough"
Etc, Etc....
What would you say to those people?!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 6, 2002
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W5MX:
Brian:
Since you asked:
Ham radio is not a contact sport. Hockey, football, and to a lesser extent, soccer and basketball ARE contact sports. HAM radio is not.
In contact sports, THE RULES permit a certain amount of pushing, shoving, blocking, and in the case of hockey, stepping all over those getting in your way. HAM radio IS NOT and should not be like hockey. In HAM radio, you simply cannot push, shove, block or step all over another station because they are in your way. FCC rules (Federal Law)simply do not permit contesters (or anyone else) to squash other stations "like a bug" as has been previously suggested.
If you have read (and understood) the rules, you know that they displace the "law of the jungle", "Darwinism", and "might makes right".
Now let's be clear. I have an Alpha 99 and I can squash a fair number (certainly not all) of contesters "like a bug". BUT "can I do it" is not the issue. "Should I do it" is the real question. And the answer is "HELL NO I should not". Why, because the rules of HAM radio (Federal law) say that it is a NON-CONTACT, gentlemen's activity.
Since you choose a sports analogy, how about this one. What would you say if Tiger Woods cross blocked Jack Nicklaus on the 18th? Unfair? You bet. But why? Because the rules of the game say so.
The rules of HAM radio say that you cannot squash, shove, block, or step all over other stations "just because you can". And Brian, I agree 100% with that philosophy. What about you?
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N5NJ on December 6, 2002
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" Why not take your contests to the WARC bands?? "
That's a hot one!
The WARC bands are supposed to be the contest-free refuge for the minority who are against contests. That's right! The minority. Most hams don't give a hoot one way or another and have a healthly attitude where if they don't like what they hear, they turn it off.
The problem is that the minority of you vocal anti-contesters seem to have the ear of the 'politicians' and somehow influence what happens that affects all of us.
Why not recognize that there are really only 4 weekends a year where the SSB bands are wall-to-wall with contesters.
If you don't like what you hear, turn your dial. Use a different frequency. Why should your 'right' to use a frequency override my 'right' to use that same frequency? You get it for 48 weekends a year, contesters use it for 4. A 12:1 ratio seems pretty fair to me.
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The sports analogy
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by N5NJ on December 6, 2002
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The contact sports analogy that's being used here is incorrect.
A better analogy would be if you were just a local golfer at one of the major courses being used for a tournament on a few weekends each year.
Instead of claiming that you, as a regular duffer*, should have unabated access to the tournament course instead of Tiger, Greg, Ernie, Phil, and the others, you should sit back, spectate and watch the more talented players do their thing on your home course.
Perhaps, if you really feel the need to play that weekend, you could go try out one of the other local courses you usually don't play on.
Most contesters, myself included, see the situation this way.
(* - Duffer is not a disrespectful term for you non-golfers.)
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RE: The sports analogy
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by W9WHE on December 6, 2002
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N5NJ:
If I understand you correctly (and I'm not sure I do) you view the "contesters" as the professional golfers and the rest of the HAMS as the "duffers".
Do I have this right?
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N0IT on December 6, 2002
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1) "Contests are the only time the bands are anywhere near fully utilized". Nonsence. During a contest, the bands are way OVER crowded. Chaos and law of the jungle reighn supreme.
If you feel that way, that they are OVER CROWDED, then maybe you ought to voluntarily stay off.
3) "Contests do not keep anyone from operating". Even more nonsence! If you are a QRP guy, is there ANY chance you will even try to operate during a contest? Pointless. As others have said, you will get "squashed like a bug". Give me a break! Moreover, many Ops dodn't even bother turning on the radio during a contest because they do not care to have "CQ contest...CQ contest blabbered all over their QSO.
Many QRPers do get on and work the contests, especially the DX contests, Sweepstakes, and Field Day.
Even if contests are of no interest, there is nothing to stop a qrper from getting on 40 meters during a DX contest and make plenty of contacts by operating during the DAY TIME when the DX contesters will be on another band.
I still think the rush hour analogy is the best Ive seen. Some of you seem to feel that you deserve to have day time driving conditions during rush hour.
BTW, the only deliberate qrming I have ever encountered during a contest was from qrp CW ops chasing my RTTY signal around the band and calling cq or trading insults wherever I operated even if 40 khz from their personal frequency.
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QRP ragchewing and contest do co-exist
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by N0TONE on December 7, 2002
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As usual, it's all too easy for everybody to pound on their side of the soapbox.
Over the weekend, I had some enjoyable QRP ragchews, on the very bands where contesters were operating. So it is possible. I do feel for the original poster, as he lives in a country where the 40 meter band is quite limited in size.
The way I look at QRP is thus: I have chosen to engage in a part of the hobby that is, by its very nature, limited. I can only engage in that part of the hobby when the bands are good enough, when the noise on the other chap's end of the link is low enough, when there are enough stations on "the other end" who are willing to work a weaker station, and so on. A contest is just one more item that makes QRP a challenge. To me, the need to pop the rig up to 100W or even 1kW can be caused by the ionosphere or a contester, it makes no difference.
As another poster said, it is like the highways. If the roads are adequately empty, I can drive 75 miles per hour (that's the speed limit in my area). However, most of the time, the roads are not that empty, and I can only drive 45-50. Thus it is on HF. If there are few enough stations about, I can work QRP. Otherwise, I need to make my signal equivalent to the rest.
I actually do not believe the contesters are more rude. When I'm operating QRP, I'm fully aware that plenty of stations will perceive my signal to be weak, therefore, they assume that when they transmit, they will be as weak to me as I am to them. That is why QRP stations get stepped on, not because QRO ops are rude.
As another has said, this is all ham radio. I have heard every activity in my years on the radio. I have heard activities which others consider illegal, rude, etc. To me, as long as somebody's using the band, I'm relatively pleased.
Contesters, welcome.
Ragchewers, welcome.
Please, both of you, get those chips off your shoulders and let the other chap have some fun until next weekend.
AM
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RE: QRP ragchewing and contest do co-exist
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by N0TONE on December 7, 2002
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BTW, someone commented on the "fat" contesters. If you look at the membership of most contest clubs, then a non-contest club, you will see that the contesters are more likely to keep themselves in shape than non-contesters. By a wide (pun intended) margin.
AM
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Contesters with no respect!
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by W4OAE on December 7, 2002
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Like every other activity that brings a wide cross section of a group into action, a percentage of contest ops are no exception. They are not going to follow good operating practices. I would venture to guess that they are a high percentage of the ones that run absurdly high levels of power as well. A win at all cost to others attitude.
I guess the contest rules could provide some relief by allowing only certian band segments as fair game to the contest operators. Not being into contesting I'm only guessing it would help the problem.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KL7IPV on December 7, 2002
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to W4OAE...thank you. I have a hard time understanding why others will not accept the premise that a sponsor can limit frequencies for their contest. It isn't violating anyone's privilege to use the radio but does limit the amount of band space a contest should use when defined by a sponsor. So, why is that so bad?
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KI9A on December 7, 2002
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Jeez. KL7IPV wants to limit contests to certian parts of the band. HOW?
Say, 20 meters SSB.
14.225-14.250...oops, that'll piss off the slow-scan guys. Can't do that.
14.150-14.175..ooops, Extra only, can't do that.
14.300-14.325..oops, cant do that, that'll make the nets around .300 mad.
14.325-14.350...oops, cant do that, tha'll make the county hunters mad.
Frank (and others), are you guys willing to make a "rag-chew free zone" also? How about a ragchew free zone 3.825-3.850. Sounds good, right?
Get a life you guys, I worked just as hard as you to earn my ticket. That gives me the right to operate anywhere in the band, at any time I wish, however I wish, as long as I stick to the FCC rules.
Again, how do you tell these establ;ished nets & skeds, that they can no longer operate at all during a contest?
73,
Chuck KI9A
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KC8NWB on December 7, 2002
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Ok, Everyone will now turn off their computers, head for the bathroom, drop shorts, and take a good DUMP !! You will feel much better and be more able to turn on the rig and HAVE FUN!! Remember how to do that? I would very much enjoy working every one of you via ragchew, contest, hell even by mistake. Any mode,any band, any time. I'm sure that we would respect each other and would probably enjoy meeting each other. It's all about being flexible. It's really not that hard. 73
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KI9A on December 7, 2002
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W9WHE says that the bands are overcrowded already?
Bullpookie!
Take a listen on 160 Sunday evening, tell me how many signals you hear. Keep a quick log, say about 30 mins worth. Can you even come close to filling a log page 50%. Nah, no way.
Now, tonite, during the ARRL 160 contest, the spectrum is alive & full of signals. Signals from old friends. Signals from new friends. Yes, our QSo's only last a couple of seconds, but, to me, they mean alot.
I ragchew when I don't contest. I contest when I dont reagchew. Sometimes, I've been know to ragchew while doing a contest.
73,
Chuck KI9A
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KL7IPV on December 8, 2002
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for KI9A.... I do not want to limit the contesters, I want to reduce the conflicts. The fact is, if some weren't a problem this subject would not come up as often as it does. As far as not using certain frequencies due to county hunters, SSTV, etc.; they are already used by contesters. That wouldn't change. All I am asking is that some portion of each band be left for those who do NOT contest. No one has yet offered a counter, only that their rights to contest exist. I agree with that but until and unless someone comes up with some way to reduce the conflicts, there is still no way to do that other than the sponsor doing so. All this still comes back to those few who will not listen and/or stomp those on a frequency they want to use. Since that courtesy seems to be forgotten, the limits need to be set by the sponsors.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N2MG on December 8, 2002
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It seems everyone has ignored my posts...can it be because they offer such a clear, inarguable defense of contesting that the anti-contesters cannot rebutt? I don't think so...
KL7IPV wrote:
<< All I am asking is that some portion of each band be left for those who do NOT contest. No one has yet offered a counter, only that their rights to contest exist. >>
I quote:
"As a contester...I promise to operate only in the lower half of the band every CW contest and only the upper half every SSB contest. Non-contesters can have the other half."
and...
"Why would one ever promote the idea that contesters be limited in their enthusiasm to utilize the spectrum? Is rag chewing so much more important? Is the 3 weekends a year that the phone bands fill up so overwhelmingly intolerable that one insists on requesting victim status and thus be declared a protected minority deserving of special considerations?"
N2MG
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KI9A on December 8, 2002
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N2MG makes a great point, that is largely overlooked by the ani-contest group. That being there is only 3, maybe 4 weekends a year that the SSB bands are packed.
Those being CQWW, SS, WPX & maybe the NAQP (only 12 hours long) & FD.
Yep, there are contests every weekend. But, take a listen, there is ALL kinds of space to operate.
So, we'll take the bands for 4 out of 52 weeks each year. The ragchewers can take 48 out of 52.
So, what is the problem? I've been contesting for about 22 out my 25 years on the air. I have heard contesters that have no respect. I have heard MORE ragchewers with no respect.
73,
Chuck
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KI9A on December 8, 2002
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Here is another point:
ragchewers complain about contesters that seem to be deaf, & carry on on top of them.
1st off-most contesters have state of the art rigs, with awesome filtering...
2nd-they have RX antennas that are directional at times.
3rd-they have directional antennas on most bands, that makes them loud to a smaller station, on backscatter or number of wierd paths. Try as they may, the small station might try to make the QSO, or even tell the contester they are interfering, but, the small station does not have the poop to make the contester hear them.
Having operated large stations, this does happen, if I trample someone that I dont hear, do I feel bad. Hell yes I do. But, myself, and 99.9% of the other contesters, want a somewhat clear freq so they can pick out the weak guys. So why would we cover somebody up?
Again, scroll back to my first post on this subject...
73,
Chuck
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N2MG on December 8, 2002
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Of course, the original article had to do with band plans rather than contesting in general. I'll assume that means those "formal" and "not so formal"...
I see no problem with band plans when the band is not overloaded. It makes sense for various modulations/modes to try to maintain some separation. It also makes it easier to "find" those operations. However, when a segment of the band fills up with operators, blindly adhering to these voluntary band plans make little sense. I know, I know, some people want hard and fast rules that never change, but as logical beings (dare I refer to some of us that?), we need to adapt to changing environments.
As small as a band plan (or gentleman's agreement) segment may be (e.g., calling freqs) why is the user of mode X more deserving of spectrum than anyone else? I'll agree a contester risks invoking the wrath of the worldwide SSTV cabal for firing up on one of their sacred frequencies, but it is his right if that freq is unoccupied.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KL7IPV on December 9, 2002
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Well, I have entered my opinions. Having said all that, I conclude that no matter what we say, it will probably never change. Regardless, I still have yet to meet a better group of people than we have here on this site. Seeing opinions expressed without rancor or worse, I say, "Thank you to all". Whether or not I contest; as long as these discussions can go on ham radio will continue to be healthy, both for the contesters and us, the "ragchewers". 73 to you all. Merry Christmas (or happy holidays)and happy new year too.
Frank
KL7IPV
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Contesters with no respect!
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by W5GNB on December 9, 2002
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I still feel that all contesting should be set up with some sort of a bandplan so that the Entire Amateur spectrum is not fair game for these events.
If there were segmented bands for contesting, it would give a little relief to those of us who do NOT want to listen to these QRM_FESTS!!
At least we have the WARC bands in which we can find a little releif from this nonsense!!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 10, 2002
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K9IA:
As for how crowded 160 (bottom band) is on Sunday nights, all I can say is..... who cares? How crowded is 10 meters on Sunday night? Once again, who cares?
160, as the bottom band, is not utilized by the majority of hams. I personally yeild it to contesters, so long as they stay away from 20 meters!
160 is a great place for contests. I think ALL contests should be held EXCLUSIVELY on 160, and held every weekend! Heck, I love the idea!
What most of us are irratated about are the problems on 40-15 meters. And if Weekly contests on 160 will help resolve the problem, I'm all for it!
Whohoo! Problem solved!
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W5MX on December 10, 2002
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W9WHE:
I realize ham radio is not a contact sport. In fact, there was more than just contact sports in my examples: golf, NASCAR (not supposed to be contact, but is at times..) My perspective was based more on the complaints of large stations "squashing" the smaller stations and the adverse conditions caused by QRM. It was basically stating that "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen". Thus the analogy of if you are in one of the events I had listed (yes, some were contact sports...that's just what came to mind at the time) and you can't handle the adverse conditions...don't whine about it, do something else, or make adjustments.
In many early years of my 22 year ham "career" I had 100w and wire antennas, and I lived in Wa state (the RF "black hole") I can't tell you how many times I was "squashed like a bug" in contests by the big east coast stations while trying to run europe...but you know what, I found another freq, slid up or down a few hz...whatever, I dealt with it. I had the choice to get off the radio, or try to figure a way of working around the big stations and heavy QRM. The same could be done for a non-contester trying to carry on a QSO.
In my first post (and several other peoples') I pointed out about how there are actually so few days a year when contests are taking place...maybe non-contesters could either join in or do something else for a FEW DAYS a year.
I don't condone squashing, stepping on, etc, of other stations (intentionally). You apparently just missed the point of my reasoning, or I didn't do a very good job conveying my thoughts.
W9WHE...just to prove contesters can rag chew with the best of 'em, and to see (or should I say hear) who W5MX is, and to have the opportunity to talk (which is better than typing notes on the internet) about these issues....how about you and I set a sked? I assume you are fairly close to KY, so lets try 80 or 40 m. Any evening works for me, in fact...what about tonight (12/10) at 03:00 Z? Try 3.830 +/- QRM (I don't want to squash anybody). Let me know if that works, in fact anyone else is invited to join in as well. I will call you....
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by KC2GYD on December 10, 2002
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If you don't see the problem, maybe you should get out of the forrest. CONTESTING IS NOT EVERYTHING. This bad operating also applys to the UHF and VHF bands. Contesters do not own any of the bands, NOT EVEN DURING A CONTEST. I will chew the fat with other non-contesters and since I cannot use the WARC bands I will use the privilages I have according to FCC rule. How ever if you want the points from our little rag chew, break in and ask we will be happy to give you the contacts. But after that please let us talk in peace. (We are not all spoil sport!)
Bill - KC2GYD
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by RS184847 on December 11, 2002
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W5MX says that ham radio isn't a contact sport hmmmm!!! wonder what would happen if half the persons posting on this thread were put into a room together?
There are arguements on both sides but for goodness sake is it really worth this amount of space, personally I think not!
No, I'm not a licenced operator and quite frankly, judging by this and similar threads on QRZ.com, don't think I'll ever bother.
Encouraging to prospective hams!!!!, I think I'll be quite content going into my 27th year as an SWL in 2003.
Just one final small point I'd like to make, yet again I'm reading derogatory comments about CB'ers; why? There's good and bad in all hobbies and just because you have a licence doesn't make you a good operator it only gives you the right to legally be there.
Have a listen to some of the 11m SSB operators and how they conduct themselves you may be surprised.
Martyn
RS 184847 (Edinburgh, Scotland)
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Contesters with no respect!
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by W1XL on December 11, 2002
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Questions:
1) If a calling station's signal report is 59/599 why does the sending station invariably request a repeat or three? Would pausing to listen and send a true RST by hand be really such a time consumming chore?
2) Why do many of the 'Big Gun Runners' send at +55 WPM when they can only copy ~15 WPM or less? See also 1).
3) If contesting is a 'Sport' as some have said, then where is the 'sport' in hunting 'deer' (points, multipliers) with a 50 cal. machine gun (multi-multi Alligators). Guys, if you can't hear over yourselves, ponder a moment and imagine what your doing to everyone else on the band.
4) If contestors are 'Pros' as others have said, then why haven't the sponsoring organizations leveled the playing field by ruling a limit on the total station monetary cost as part of the class qualifications? As it stands now, any one with the dinero and/or a commercial sponsor gets to see their call in lights regardless of their personal contribution to the state of the art, operating prowness, or home brewing skills.
Speaking of 'Pros' and 'Commerical' sponsors... I think I may have answered my own questions.
_AMATEUR_RADIO_
is nearly dead...
And the proof lies in these postings. Maybe the real question is, what are we going to _do_ about it?
73
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Contesters with no respect!
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by K4NR on December 11, 2002
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Greetings,
Nobody has the exclusive rights to any frequency--contester, rag-chewer, DXer, or nets. Each of these is simply one of many parts of Amateur Radio.
Before I call on any frequency I ask if the frequency is in use. If it's not in use, it's fair for me to use the frequency. If 14.233 is not in use, I can use it regardless of my mode. It's illegal for an SSTV operator to start calling CQ on top of me. If they SSTV operator wants to call CQ on SSTV and asks me to move before calling CQ, I’ll move. If I'm on 14.248 and a net control operator asks me to use the frequency for a net, I'll move. If someone get arrogant, I'll stay--courtesy is a two-way street.
As for QRM. Nobody is guaranteed 6 kHz of bandwidth--QRM is just something we all have to deal with.
Professional versus amateur—contesters versus rag-chewers? I don't think so. But, most contest stations take their antennas and equipment to serious levels. I have a decent station with directional antennas on all bands except 160 meters and can run the legal limit. Even with an array that allows me to reduce strong stations operating nearby, 40 and 75 meter phone is always a challenge. 40 is largely due to broadcast and 75...well, it's 75. (I'd rather operate CW—it’s easier to find a little space higher in the sub-band)
This is almost as bad as the Code versus No-Code debate.
73 de Tom, K4NR
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by WD8PTB on December 11, 2002
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Yes, Contests are a problem for both contestors and non contestors. I am not a contester but... Like a previous poster I take advantage of the DX that is available during many contests. DX on 40 meters is rare except during contests.
The problem is not the contest, It is the inproper/inpolite operation. These operating procedures are not limited to contests. I have heard people call CQ without checking the frequence first, Call DX stations that they don't even know the call of, deliberatly QRM nets, and various other things. Like your Mother always told you:"If you can't say (or do) anything nice don't say (or do) anything at all".
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 12, 2002
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W5MX says:
"if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"..... [If] you can't handle the adverse conditions...don't whine about it, do something else, or make adjustments".
Brian, once again you have so graciously made my point for me. Thank you.
When you say "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". I say to you that "might does not make right" and just because my Alpha 99 can make it very, very hot for you does NOT mean you should be forced to "get out of the kitchen". To the contrary, under the rules (those pesty little annoying regulations we are REQUIRED to obey)I have an affirmitive duty to refrain from "making it hot" for others. And contests are not an exception.
Once again, this is not jungle rule, law of the jungle, Darwin's law, my stick is bigger than yours, or the south side of Chicago! Ham radio is a "civil"ised service, where such concepts simply do not apply.
The ONLY thing seperating the Amateur Service from 11 meters is our adherance to the rules. Absent such adherance, there is NO DIFFERENCE between us and 11 meters.
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by N5KA on December 12, 2002
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I am an avid contester and I do not remember hearing any US hams in the 40 meter "CW portion" during that contest, but it is normal to hear stations from other IARU regions in there - contest or not. Also, where is the "legislation" that specifies the "band plan"?
73 and good contesting
Henri - N5KA
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RE: Contesters with no respect!
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by W9WHE on December 12, 2002
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KC2GYD:
Bill, after you have been a ham for a while longer (and have endured a few more contests) you might have a different perspective.
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Contesters with no respect?
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by AD6WL on December 12, 2002
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Well, contesters have not right to any specfic freq, whether it is a major contest or not. However, the non-contester doesn't have any right to any specfic frequency either. The fact is during major contest there are lots of operators out there. The bands are being used and contacts are being made. These are all things that are good for amateur radio. The contesters are often time putting up with lots of QRM because the bands are so crowded. That is why serious contesters use narrow filters in their radios and know how to use their DSP to reduce the QRM.
Contesters have no right to a free and clear frequency and neither do the non-contesters. Because the bands are crowded is no reason that contesters should be forced to use a smaller portion of the band. That is the reason that the WARC bands were established as contest free. Non-contesters can use the non-WARC bands all they like during any contest, but they must realize that if it is a major contest that they will have to put up with QRM. The contester dosn't have the option to use a nice clear WARC band.
I don't know why some people think that using the WARC bands is like being forced to ride in the back of the bus. With propagtion on the downside the 30 and 17 meter bands are going to be idea for operating. I bet a lot of contestesters would like to use these bands during their contests.
73, Jim
AD6WL
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Contesting is Like Working in Fast Food
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by KF3OOA on December 13, 2002
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I hate contesting. It is noisy, clogs the bands and pretty much knocks out the casual use of the non-warc bands. It reminds of working at McDonalds. Get em in and get em out. Who needs it and who wants it? Just for a cardboard cookie? No thanks. Ever wonder where we would be without numbers? Maybe we would gather clam shells to feel good about life?
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RE: Contesters with no respect?
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by K9PO on December 17, 2002
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Contesters really screwed up the 10meter band this weekend.
I was looking forward to another weekend of listening to static and I could not find a clear frequency from 28.3 to 28.9! Just a gazillion guys calling CQ and QRZ over and over again. Many of them DX stations from Japan and the Caribean, not to mention all of the stateside WRM they were causing!!
How rude to ruin my static listening.
I worked a few of them and let them know of my dissatifcation by wasting their time. I would call them and then just send a bogus 5&9 report no matter how poor of a signal they had and my state, that'll teach 'em!!
73
Scott
-----------------
----
K9PO & JN3XCV
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Contesters with no respect!
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by WD4AWO on June 28, 2003
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Hello Chris,
Just remember that the contesters honestly believe that they 'own' the bands on a contest weekend and to hell with everyone else.
For confirmation just listen to them today June 28, 2003 beginning at 1800 UTC as they not only qrm ongoing qso's but qrm each other so bad they couldn't begin to hear a station responding to their "CQ Contest", "CQ Field Day" with a 5/9 +40 dB signal.
Then the pompous jerks have the audacity to say that "Field Day" is not a contest while they "CQ Contest" in the same breath.
What a sad, sad day for amateur radio,
Bob wd4awo
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