eHam.net - Amateur Radio (Ham Radio) Community

Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Speak Out
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net


QSL Managers
     

Ham Links
     



[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Key Clicks

from Tom Rauch, W8JI on January 28, 2003
Website: http://www.w8ji.com
View comments about this article!

Clicks are often a problem on congested bands, yet with modern radios they don't need to be a problem. In the past, engineers and designers didn't have the easy ability to generate filtered waveforms. Radios lacked wide 2-3 kHz wide SSB filters, let alone narrow 250-500Hz filters. Op-amps were unheard of, and L-C filters were large, bulky and expensive. Today, every radio manufactured has the ability to be very clean. 

Modern Radios

Most modern radios include 500Hz and narrower receiver filters that operate at the same IF frequency as their transmitter section. Transmitted signals are often routed through the SSB filters with intentional TX switching, when they could just as easily be routed through CW filters! We will see later in this page that TX signals could be routed through CW filters to eliminate sidebands, yet manufacturers foolishly use the SSB filters. If you examine the bandwidth of a FT1000-series radio, you will find the clicks disappear at the BW limits of the SSB filter. This is because they run an essentially unshaped CW signal through the SSB filter, and that filter sets the bandwidth of clicks.

The sad thing is once you listen to that signal through a 500Hz filter, it sounds absolutely no different ON FREQUENCY than it would if it were nearly click free. The only people who can notice the difference between a clicking rig and a clean rig are the people operating on adjacent frequencies! Claims that certain shapes produce certain "bell sounds" or high readability are not correct, they are certainly not based on engineering or actual blind A-B tests. 

If you examine the audio output of your radio with a 500Hz filter in use, you will see ANY waveshape transmitter has the same nearly raised-sine shape output to your ear! That includes wide signals and narrow ones. The speed limit you can copy with a 500Hz filter is the same limit you can transmit with. It makes no difference what end of the path the filter is on, or if there is one at both ends, so far as speed is concerned! (This assumes the filters have reasonably good and easy to achieve group-delay characteristics.) We hear a few mS rise, no matter if it is a sine shape or a square, as a "tick". For demonstration, listen to the pure sine wave on WWV that "tics" every second!       

What Could Be Done

At no cost to manufacturers, they could build a click free radio. Every component is in the radio, the problem all centers around poor or careless engineering. 

Amplifier stages are reasonably linear (so they can amplify SSB), and virtually every radio contains power control circuitry that could be easily modified to provide wave-shaping. Even without wave-shaping, the transmitter could process transmitted CW though a 250Hz or 500Hz filter. 

Sadly, most of the commonly used radios have as bad or worse keying characteristics than old rigs. It's as if the manufactures either don't understand CW, or don't care. The result is we are left with a mess, because many top-of-the-line and very popular rigs have horrible keying sidebands. 

On frequency with normal CW filters, we would not be able to tell any difference between the sound of a clicking radio and one that is clean! There is no justification or reason for radios to be 3kHz wide on CW.

How to Identify Click Problems             

We hardly notice clicks, and we certainly can not tell a clean rig from a dirty rig, when we are listening right on the CW station's frequency! Even an scope won't tell us much about signal bandwidth, or if the rig has excessive clicks.

In order to check clicks, we must:

  1. Be sure the receiver is not overloading

  2. Listen with the CW signal outside the receiver filter's bandwidth

  3. Listen when the noise is low, and the signal reasonably strong 

If we do not follow those three guidelines, we can't tell if a rig is clean or not. If you are testing your own rig, your second receiver must have a narrow filter and be coupled to the  rig-under-test through a proper attenuator.   

Why Worry About Clicks?

Clicks are most problematic when we try to copy weak signals next to moderately strong signals. If you only operate on empty bands, run low power, and never operate within four or five kHz of weak stations, bandwidth is probably not a concern. 

If we contest, work DX, or Ragchew near other QSO's, and especially when we run more than a few hundred watts and have large antennas, we should be mindful of our bandwidth. If you listen to a recording of a clicking radio, you can hear how devastating clicks are to nearby weaker signals. This signal is from Europe on 40 meters, and it is daylight over half of the path!! 

For a mathematical tutorial on clicks, visit W9CF's site. Kevin's analysis deals with bandwidth requirements related ONLY to modulation of the envelope. I'll explain the same thing in verbal form, as I discuss sidebands created by rise and fall times. CW keying is really just 100% AM modulation, as you will see!    

There are several INCORRECT but popular misconceptions. They are:

  • A signal has to be clicking and/or wide to send fast CW

  • Clicks or sharp rises and falls aid in weak signal work

  • Your CW signal bandwidth changes with the speed you are sending

  • A certain shape gives a certain on-frequency sound

What Causes Clicks?

While a fast rise and fall time guarantee excessive bandwidth, a long rise and fall is no guarantee a radio will be "click-free". Some radios switch into transmit while the synthesizer (VCO) circuits are still settling to a new frequency. An IC-775DSP I owned was particularly bad about this, and also had VCO leakage problems. The amount of garbage varied with how I used the radio, including "VFO" frequency settings of unused VFO's! 

Radios with VCO or synthesizer settling time problems generally produce a loud "thump" on key closure on the second VCO frequency. That thump will be right on the DX station when the operator is working split. If you listen in pileups, you will hear a small percentage of rigs with this problem. If the operator uses QSK, VCO-switching-thumps can be particularly annoying. Thumps will occur every time the VCO moves from the receive frequency to the transmit frequency, sounding like a leading-edge click! 

Rise and fall times are also important. A long rise and fall time does not always result in narrow CW transmitter bandwidth, even though a faster-than-needed rise and fall time almost certainly results in excessive bandwidth. Many radios have rise and fall times that are much too fast.

How fast is much too fast? For now let's ignore VCO switching problems, and consider envelope shape. 

Rise and Fall

The ARRL recommends a 5 mS rise and 5 mS fall time for CW, based on data in section 2.202 of FCC rules and CCIR Radio regulations. According to professional sources, a 5 ms rise and fall time is not harmful to readability at 35 wpm under marginal (fading) conditions, and 60 wpm when signals are reasonably above noise floor. This rise and fall results in a occupied bandwidth of 150 Hz, although unwanted transient energy caused by the shape of the waveform slope may appear at wider bandwidths. 

What Limits Bandwidth?

When determining bandwidth of a stable signal (no oscillator problems), two things come into play in.

  • The slope of the envelope rise and fall at any point controls the bandwidth of the keying sidebands

  • The amount of voltage change during the slope controls the power level of the sidebands (clicks). 

The slope (bandwidth) and the amount of change in a sloped area (level) combine to determine how offensive the transmitted signal is. Very subtle changes in envelope shape have a profound effect on key click amplitude and frequency dispersion. This makes it nearly impossible to tell if our radios are as clean as they could be by looking at envelope shape. 

We can be certain sharp transitions will cause problems, especially if we can actually see them on a oscilloscope. We can also be sure that a rise and fall faster than 2 or 3 milliseconds will cause a bandwidth problem.   

Reference Data for Radio Engineers, in the section of Radio Noise and Interference, addresses key clicks in a manner the ARRL Handbook does not. They give an example of multi-pole shaping of waveform. The ARRL Handbook seems stuck with the incorrect notion that a single-pole R/C filter provides proper shaping, something doubtless left over from 1940's technology when better filters were expensive, large, and complicated.

Here are the bandwidth curves of three basic envelope shapes, one rectangular (some radios are this bad!), one for a proper single pole R/C filter with slightly rounded shape (The ARRL suggests this shape. Probably because it was practical in the early years and "stuck" even though it is not ideal), and one for a filtered rise and fall (this would be a sine-shaped rise and fall from a multi-pole filter). We can clearly see a large difference in bandwidth in the curves below:      

From Ref Data for Radio Engineers 29-10 1977 Edition

Most  radios, through poor design, fit in the rectangular to slightly-rounded category!

What Can Manufacturers Do?

Radio manufacturers can certainly do a great deal more than they are. First, they created the problems through poor engineering and design. Why are we stuck fixing them? Did they take our money and run? 

All of the parts are there to make radios virtually click-free, yet the only manufacturer who has taken an active interest in this (and who seems to care at all about our signal quality and frequency usage) is Ten-Tec! To date I haven't found any other manufacturer admitting a problem, or even offering technical support for bandwidth problems. 

Let me give an example of what could be done with current radios:

Virtually every radio contains a CW filter that operates at the IF frequency of the transmitter, yet nearly every radio transmits CW through the SSB filter! Engineers actually added circuitry and parts, in many cases, to steer the CW through the wider filter on transmit! If you listen to radios, in particular the FT1000-series, you will notice they have an ultimate click-bandwidth of about the same width as the SSB filter. That's because the poorly-shaped CW waveform with excessively fast rise-and-fall is filtered through the SSB filter.

If these same radios immediately turned on the output stages, and held them on for several mS after the key line was opened, they could send perfect filtered CW through the CW filter. A 500Hz filter would cause a steep roll-off in clicks, even if driven by a relatively "square" and very broad CW signal. The resulting waveform would be a slightly modified raised-sine envelope.  

The listener would not be able to tell any difference between the ON FREQUENCY sound of a 500Hz CW-filtered transmitter and an unfiltered signal with excessive bandwidth, if he used a 500Hz or narrower filter in his receiver! As a matter of fact, I normally transmit through a 250Hz filter in my FT1000D, rather than the 2.4kHz SSB filter Yaesu selected. No one listening on frequency, even DX stations copying my signal near noise level, can tell the difference when I select 2.4KHz or 250Hz bandwidth! The only place transmitter filtering makes a difference is up or down the band from my operating frequency. 

This is why we can not tell whether a signal has a proper rise and fall time, sharp level transitions, or any other envelope shape problem when we listen to the actual CW tones through a 500Hz filter.  Even a very fast rise-time, with a spiked rise and fall, sounds good (and even looks perfect on a scope connected after the receiver's narrow filter)! 

 Claim's that a certain shape rise and fall produce a "pleasing-sound" are not true at all. First, our ears can't identify a sound only 5mS long, and second...the receiver's CW filter (assuming it is under several hundred Hz BW) reshapes the waveform to a proper rise and fall! 

Why is any of this our concern? Why do we have to work on radios, and suffer with clicks? Certainly not because of a cost issue! All the parts are in the radios. It is a simple lack of good design-engineering, most likely driven by a lack of concern by manufacturers for providing rigs with good signal quality.

What Can We Do?

First, we can let manufacturers know it is their problem. Let's ask the ARRL to publish useful reviews with bandwidth pictures showing a spectral display of CW (and SSB) bandwidth. Let's ask them to check for VCO problems, and publish any abnormalities. Let's rate radios as poor, fair, good, or excellent so readers don't have to be EE's to understand what they are buying (and using).

Radios are too expensive, too difficult to work on, and last too long for us to ignore this problem. We need to stop these problems at the design phase, instead of out in the field.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Key Clicks  
by W4AN on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
You can get more information on at W8JI's web site at http://www.w8ji.com. There are more recordings of clicking radios and of a clean sounding CW signal.

The worst radios for clicking these days are the Yaesu FT-1000D, FT-1000MP, and the worst... the FT-1000MP Mark-5. Each of these radios can be fixed and the W8JI web site includes a modification for each of these radios.
 
Key Clicks  
by W4AN on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
PS: You might take the time to let your radio manufacturer just what you think of having to fix a brand new radio. I also believe a few well meant letters to League might help put preasure on these manufacturers to clean up their act. If this were the car industry, there would certainly be a recall and the problem fixed at the cost of the manufacturer.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by K3UD on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Very interesting and well researched.

I went to the ARRL website and took a look at the reviews of the FT-1000D and the Mark V Field. Nowhere in the review of the Mark V was there a mention of key clicks. In the 1000D review the only mention I could find was a comment that the first element transmitted in full break in mode was truncated and tended to be a bit clicky. Does the ARRL lab routinely test for clicks?

73
George
K3UD

 
RE: Key Clicks  
by NI0C on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I certainly don't want to detract from the overall thrust of this splendid article by quibbling. However, I was intrigued by Tom's claim that "CW signal bandwidth changes with the speed you are sending" is an "incorrect but popular misconception." This seems to fly in the face of information theory which tells us there is an inverse relationship between bandwidth and the rate of information. I looked up the referenced article by W9CF. Tom, did you make your statement based on W9CF's conclusions about his Figure 4? Figure 4 shows a comparison between the spectrum of two pulses of different widths. W9CF concludes: "It [the central peak in the spectral analysis] does get narrower for slower keying and wider for faster keying, however the keying speed does not effect[sic] the overall bandwidth." I am confused by what he meant by "overall bandwidth," since he seems to negate the results of his own analysis. What am I missing here?

73 de Chuck NI0C
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by WG7S on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
> However, I was intrigued by Tom's claim that "CW
> signal bandwidth changes with the speed you are
> sending" is an "incorrect but popular
> misconception." This seems to fly in the face of
> information theory which tells us there is an
> inverse relationship between bandwidth and the
> rate of information.

The gotcha here is that the information carrying capacity of a 500 Hz CW signal isn't "saturated" at the speeds most people use for CW.

There is a theoretical limit for CW where you would have to be wider than 500 Hz to get any additional information in the signal. Do we get there? I don't think so.

Steve
WG7S
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by K2VCO on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom is right when he says that the bandwidth does not change with the keying speed. But there is a sense in which it is related. If you are sending at a given speed and you 'soften' the keying (increase the rise and fall times of the elements), there will come a point when the elements start to run together. So a given speed REQUIRES a certain rise/fall time in order to be intelligible. And the bandwidth depends on the rise/fall times. I guess it would be correct to say that the bandwidth required for CW depends on the maximum speed that you will be transmitting.
 
Key Clicks  
by N1EU on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Tom for continuing to drive this issue. Why has Yaesu remained totally silent? I don't understand why they aren't in the middle of this discussion and haven't responded to date.

73,
Barry N1EU
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W3ULS on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What a pleasant surprise to find this topic, up to now discussed only sub rosa, aired in a public forum!

Tom Rauch deserves a reward (from the ARRL?) for his untiring and effective pro bono work on behalf of beleaguered CW mavens.

I have had little experience with radios other than Yaesus, but the Yaesu line seems plastered with poor CW performers. My nominee for absolute worst is an FT-920, but I've heard from a reliable source that the FT-817 actually is worse (that would be a major feat, since I've measured my FT-920's CW bandwidth at 4.2 kHz!). A JRC JST-245 I own came in at 1.1 kHz CW bandwidth, which is the best result I've found. There's no reason, though, for a CW bandwidth much in excess of 300 Hz, but given the present state of transmitter design this is a bridge too far.

Maybe the soon-to-be-forthcoming Ten-Tec Orion will set a much-needed new standard of performance--in this area as well as others.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by NI0C on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Steve (WG7S): The 500 Hz bandwidth you mention really refers to the typical CW receive bandwidth of amateur radios. This varies widely though. For instance, I regularly use a 125 Hz IF filter and 100 Hz audio DSP. The receive bandwidth is not necessarily equal to the bandwidth of incoming signals, nor is either of these necessarily equal to the minimum bandwidth required for communication at a given speed. Tom's article points out that many amateurs unwittingly use more bandwidth than necessary. My only point was that the bandwidth occupied by a CW signal must increase as the rate of communications increases.

73, Chuck
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by N0AX on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Chuck,

The bandwidth requirement second for the information contained in a CW signal (even a very fast one) is small, compared to the bandwidth requirements to create a pulsed-RF waveform with rise and fall times on the order of 1-2 msec.

Shannon's Theorem requires twice the channel bandwidth in Hertz as the number of data symbols (usually bits) sent per second (or bps). A 30 wpm CW signal contains no more than 50 - 75 bps, so it requires only 100-150 Hz to get the information through. A properly-shaped CW signal, carrying this amount of information would probably only require about 200-250 Hz of bandwidth.

Tom's point is that if a signal's rise and fall times are too short, the sidebands required to create that envelope shape extend well beyond the bandwidth required just for the information. If you have a CW signal keyed at a 5 wpm rate, but the rise and fall times are 1 msec, the sidebands required to create the rise and fall times will extend out past 1 kHz from the carrier frequency.

So, you're correct that the information rate does affect signal bandwidth. But envelope shape, in this case, affects it more.

73, Ward N0AX
 
Key Clicks  
by KC8LTL on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
While I do not have the lab setup to accurately test for Key Clicks, I would recommend that any CW users check out the Elecraft K2. CW is not an add in to this radio, and its performace shows as a result. For more information, check out their website - www.elecraft.com

By the way, I have no relationship with Elecraft other than being a very satisfied user.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by NI0C on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ward,
Thanks for the clarification. This has been an interesting discussion, and I've learned some things today. Here's hoping that the radio manufacturers will respond with improved designs for future radios (and perhaps retrofits for older radios). Now, if we operators can eliminate those dead carriers with no rise or fall times that theoretically occupy zero bandwidth and yet, because of their placement, cause so much QRM!

73
Chuck

 
Key Clicks  
by N6AJR on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If you never operate cw, then you don't have this problem (grin).... tom N6AJR
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W4AN on January 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Bill is posting this for me.

Chuck,

The bandwidth does NOT change with speed. The requirement that you have a certain bandwidth increases with increased speed!

Imagine we had a system that "remembered" what happened in the past, or knows what will happen in the future. In this case we could think of a long series of clicks as a certain frequency distribution of sidebands in a given bandwidth. The speed would only change the distribution of sidebands inside that bandwidth, and ONLY does that when we try to analyze the past and future time problem as frequency distribution!

Let me see if I can explain this another way. A click comes along. Your ear and your receiver does NOT "store" energy from that click and add it to the next one. It does not matter if the click occurs once a year, once a day, or once a second. It has the same frequency distribution!

Now picture a spectrum analyzer. It sweeps and stores the energy from multiple clicks. It "remembers" what happened, and because of the timing of sidebands it will indicate peaks and valleys in the sidebands. Those sidebands "move around" with turn-on and turn-off time spacing (NOT just speed, unless it is a string of constanly spaced clicks such as we find in a string of dots).

Neither your head nor your receiver stores the energy for the next falling or leading edge to come along. If either one did, you would never be able to copy the CW! It would all be a blur.

If we set transmitter and receiver bandwidth to allow a certain information rate, that is the bandwidth. Even if we looked at it with something that "remembered" each click and formed a pattern of sidebands, the only thing we would see are those peaks and valleys moving around inside the original bandwidth of one click. You would hear a 5 WPM signal clicking exactly the same bandwidth of a 15 WPM signal.

I hope this explains it a bit better.

73 Tom W8JI
 
Key Clicks  
by W8LX on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI stated:

"First, our ears can't identify a sound only 5mS long"

I disagree. The WWV and WWVH one second ticks are "short audio bursts (5-ms pulses of 1000 Hz at WWV and 1200 Hz at WWVH). I know I can hear the ticks just fine, and can tell which station I'm listening to by the pitch of the 5 ms ticks alone.

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/iform.html

Yes, indeed there are a LOT of excessive clicks on the bands. However, when operating at high speeds (up to 70 WPM) I have a much harder time copying soft CW. My ears need the articulation provided by a slightly harder attack.

73,

Rob Peebles, W8LX

 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8JI on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Key Clicks Reply
by W8LX on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI stated:

"First, our ears can't identify a sound only 5mS long"

>I disagree. The WWV and WWVH one second ticks >are "short audio bursts (5-ms pulses of 1000 Hz at >WWV and 1200 Hz at WWVH). I know I can hear the ticks >just fine, and can tell which station I'm listening >to by the pitch of the 5 ms ticks alone.

Rob,

Thank you for proving my point. You call the 5mS perfect sinewave "pulses" and a "tick", and not a smooth tone or whistle.

73 Tom


 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8LX on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
"You call the 5mS perfect sinewave "pulses" and a "tick", and not a smooth tone or whistle."

But I believe you claimed the ear cannot detect such? If we can detect the pitch difference between ticks then I would say I proved your point incorrect. The ear CAN detect a 5 ms sound, and even determine the pitch.

Pipe organ builders have known this for a long time.


http://www.cbfisk.com/info/articulate.html

"We all know about "Chiff". It is the little incise or transient that an
organ pipe gives out naturally when it begins its tone. The basic Principal
organ pipe "chiffs" if its windway is lightly nicked or not nicked at all.
More and more nicking diminishes the chiff until finally it becomes
inaudible. The chiff sounds like "KAA. . . " and sometimes "CHAA. . ." or
even "SHAA. . . ." With too little wind it takes on a tubercular quality, a
kind of cough. In E. Power Biggs's words, the chiff is the consonant that
precedes the vowel. Using his metaphor it is easy to show that the chiff, or
something like it, is essential to articulateness--for: Who ever heard of
articulation without consonants? Some form of chiff was present in all the
early organs."

The keying "artifacts" help to articulate the sound of the Morse in much the
same way an organ pipe "chiffs". The artifacts are the "consonant that
precedes the vowel".
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by N1EU on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>The keying "artifacts" help to articulate the sound of the Morse in much the same way an organ pipe "chiffs". The artifacts are the "consonant that precedes the vowel".

And when you tune off-frequency, you get the consonants without the vowels.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by N0AX on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If properly shaped CW keying can be compared to well-articulated consonants, then operating adjacent to a clicky signal is like standing next to an energetic speaker with a drooling problem.

In the words of the cartoon character Sylvester the Cat - Thpffthufferin' Thpffthucotash!

73, Ward N0AX
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by WB2WIK on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This is good information.

While we're yelling at manufacturers to make changes, why not develop a data base of simple mods for our existing gear as a step in the right direction towards cleaning up the CW subbands a bit?

I'll take a look and see what's needed in my TS-850S/AT. First mod I made to that was Ulrich Rohde's suggestion to re-wire the T-R switching to place the ATU in line with the RX as well as the TX, and that sure took care of my SW BCB QRM from a local 500kW station running in the 17 MHz band!

The "route the CW sig through the CW filters" mod doesn't sound like it would be difficult, either, but I'll take a look.

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8JI on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>The keying "artifacts" help to articulate the sound >of the Morse in much the
>same way an organ pipe "chiffs". The artifacts are >the "consonant that
>precedes the vowel".

I think you are assuming the receiver has the same wide bandwidth of the clicking and clacking nasty CW transmitter, while I am talking about listening through a normal CW filter.

Text on my web site explains this, but let me have a shot at it again.

Once the signal goes through a filter, the extra wide sidebands are eliminated. It matters not which end of the path the filter is on, or if there is a filter at BOTH ends of the path. (Except to the poor guy trying to work someone on a frequency next to you! To him, it matters a great deal!!!!)

All those nasty clicks or excessively sharp or poorly shaped rises and falls don't (and can't) contribute anything at all to what we can hear, unless you are receiving with a bandwidth that passes ALL of the sidebands!

The on-frequency sound of a signal processed through a 500Hz filter sounds exactly the same no matter what end of the system the filter is on. As long as the receive filter (or bandwidth) is just slightly wider than an ideal TX filter (or bandwidth) any increase in transmitter bandwidth caused by poorly planned rise and fall time or non-sine slope of rise and fall is totally meaningless. It will not change a thing, except to the poor person trying to operate next to you!

Comparing a pipe organ to a communications receiver is meaningless, unless you listen to the pipe organ through a 500Hz or narrower filter.

If you do, all the chiffs and twiffs and twills vanish anyway, just like off-frequency clicks do when a signal is tuned in.

Comparing 20000Hz bandwidth effects to 300Hz bandwidth effects is a waste of time, because the systems (models) are not even remotely similar!!

The drool analogy is a good one, even if the organ is not. The spit contributes nothing to the meaning, and once it goes through the PA system it is removed anyway. Why spit on everyone around you, and look like a fool in the process, when the spits only function is negative???

73 Tom
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8LX on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I believe there is a big difference between "key clicks" (bad) and "keying
artifacts".

W8JI by far has the cleanest CW keing I've ever heard. In a contest or on a
crowded band he will be the best neighbor. Many CW operators aren't aware
of how much spectrum their transmitter occupies, and potentially can make
life miserable if they set set up shop nearby an ongoing QSO.

On the other hand, one size doesn't fit all. During a QRQ ragchew I listen
with a wider filter and need the keying a little bit harder, though
certainly not to the extent of the Yaesu MP.

I received an e-mail today relating to a person who performed the keying mod
to his MP. He now gets complaints that his keying is too soft at 60 WPM.

I used the organ pipe analogy because it demonstrates articulation that is pleasing to the ear. It probably would have been better if I initially indicated that when copying QRQ CW I don't like to listen through a narrow filter because it indeed does all of the things Tom describes. Perhaps one actually has to be able to copy Morse by ear at 70+ WPM to understand the effects of keying keying that is too soft.
 
Key Clicks  
by WB9GKZ on January 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It never ceases to amaze me how some people confuse Ham Radio with serious engineering. Our radios are mass-produced cheap devices. They may have imperfect
clicks on CW but they have 1,000 memories and DSP processing, etc. If you haven't noticed, today's radios are being built for people like me: the non-serious operator that likes pretty color displays, blinking lights and speech equalizers. All this CW dribble may come to an end in the next decade or so when most of the CW ops are finally silent keys. The rest of us will be having fun talking to each other and staring aimlessly at our dancing bandscopes. By the way, when I was young and on CW often, key-clicks were a welcome signature to a signal....lighten up....you are way too serious.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8JI on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ten four. Copy that bandit.

Tossin the key out the winder rite now..before I die
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by WB2WIK on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To make ourselves feel better, we should each take a turn working 40m CW up above 7040 during weekend daytimes (when there's no CW contest going on). Listen closely and you'll find OTs using ARC-5's and stuff, and they sound pretty crappy. Worked one guy a couple of weeks ago who had both clicks and chirp, and was also drifting -- kind of a triple-header!

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by NI0C on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
WB9GKZ: There is no confusion here. A lot of "serious engineering" went into your mass-produced radio. It behooves us as operators of such radios to demand that they be as good as the state-of-the-art allows. By the way, those of us who "know code" also have lots of "fun talking to each other."
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W3WW on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I somewhat agree with Patrick Keogh, WB9GKZ (lets not get carried away) and entirely with Rob, W8LX. I much prefer a shorter rise and fall time when copying high speed CW. A soft CW note makes it difficult at speeds over 45wpm.

Also, on the other side of the coin, I appreciate the time and effort Tom has devoted to the research and analysis of keying disorders associated with clicks and Yaesu tranceivers. I operate a Standard 1000MP and a 1000D, but have been unable to solicit any reports of key clicks since this "problem" was first brought to light.
Way back, at first mention of the issue, I was ready to incorporate the author's modification. Now, I'm not so sure this is necessary unless I am going to snuggle up to someone and run 1500 watts while contesting. Even then, I'm still not positive the MP (or Yaesu) is in need of a modification.

73, Don w3ww

 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W4AN on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To be clear, this problem is a big problem in contests when the bands are full of people smashed up against one another. Your rag chewing on Wednesday night on 40M probably doesn't affect anyone, and if it did... they could probably QSY if they aren't trying to work some DX.

If you are a high speed CW rag chewer type, then these mods probably aren't for you and your signal probably won't bother anyone anyway.

Another point... I have heard people ask other stations if they have key clicks. Almost invariably, the answer is something along the lines of "no, your signal sounds find". This does not mean you don't have a key click problem. It probably means one of two things:

1) The station you are working doesn't really understand the meaning of key clicks (most likely).

2) The station you are working isn't hearing you loud enough that the key clicks are above his noise floor.

Many stations assume that the receiving station has a problem because the transmitting station is SO LOUD (ie the receiver can't handle it or the noise blanker is on). This is a very common response to a key click problem and again comes from ignorance of the problem.

73

Bill, W4AN
 
Key Clicks  
by NJ6F on January 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Gentlemen,
CW is for ops that cannot type. Why would anyone use CW when there is PSK31 and all the other fine much narrower modes to utilize, that you can actually backspace and recorrect a word versus CW where you do not have that freedom.
There is way too much band space allocated for CW as it is. I would allot more of the phone bands to utilize more of the CW portion.
I still use CW for old times sake, but it is a far inferior mode to the NEW digital modes and is but just another lesser option. I have been doing CW since 1968 and respectfully understand the love affair some people have with this mode. Give me a waterfall any day!
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by PA5MW on January 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Guys!

The topic is drifting as usual. Someone has a statement and supplies a lot of info to back it up. Immediately others feel the need to argue even the smallest (side)issue endlessly :)) (no offence lads!)


Now stick to the topic:



LOTSA RADIOS SUFFER FROM KEY CLICKS

MAYBE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOURS (period)




There is enough info on how to check your TX signal and where to find any possible mod. At least I will.
'73 and have a nice weekend.
Mark, PA5MW
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by G3RZP on January 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It has ben suggested that becasue people running high (very high?) speed CW - over 40 wpm - need a fairly fast rise and fall time so that dots and dashes don't merge, manufacturers purposely designed rigs to have sharp edges and thus clicks. While that may be a rational explananation, I tend more to the belief that the just never bothered about it!

Yaesu rigs have always been bad - the FT102 was a real horror, and the Yaesu advised mod did little to help. Eventually fixable, though, as all these things are. European maritime radio standards did have a spectrum plot of the maximum amount of out of band emission allowed at 30 wpm, and most commercially built ham rigs fail dismally to meet it. At one time, RSGB rig reviews did have a spectrum plot of transmitters sending dots at 30 wpm: I guess it takes up too much magazine space though.

Why CW when you can type? Well, it's called skill and a pride in your capabilities.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by KS0T on January 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Tom for the informative article.

N0RA and I did your simple mod to the 1000D at the KR0B multi/single contest station. We enjoy 160 meter CW contests and the clicking was disturbing other close stations. A local 160 contester, N0IM, listened to our signal barefoot before and after the mod and reports no more clix!
 
Key Clicks  
by W3DCG on January 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Primary rig:
ToT Corsair, first edition.
Backup rig:
TS-850S/AT.

Now I know- a key-click is much more than that little metal contact-to-contact noise I hear when using the straight key.

Tnx for the info. I'm going to print and study and try to understand.
hi.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by W8JI on January 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Just a note about bandwidth and speed.

A MAJOR problem with making rigs already out in the field not click excessively and still work at high speeds is the poor shaping.

If you take an MP or a 1000D and patch it, the shape is nowhere near as good as could have been done if the engineers designed the rig correctly.

Because the slope isn't a raised sine, you have to slow the rise and fall MORE for the same ultimate bandwidth.

People who are forming or have formed the opinion clickless transmitters don't sound well above 45wpm are almost certainly basing that opinion on patched rigs, rather than properly shaped new designs.

When we patch a careless design up by doing minimal changes, we are no where near the optimum shape for the resulting bandwidth. It is a patch, NOT an optimized redesign.

It is incorrect to think that manufacturers made rigs like the 775DSP or FT1000 series 3 or more kHz wide just so people could send 45 or even 60 WPM, or make the rigs "sound good". There isn't a doubt at all they just didn't know or care what they were doing. And don't thinkl my mods can optimize anything that is put together wrong. They are the least invasive patches that make the rig acceptable at a half kHz or kHz spacing when signals are strong, not re-engineering.

It actually takes much longer to engineer and publish a patch that is much less than optimum than it would have taken to design nearly perfect keying in a new fresh design!!!

73 Tom
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by K9RWE on February 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>Ten four. Copy that bandit.
>
>Tossin the key out the winder rite now..before I die

Does this mean if I don't agree with someone on here I will become an object of ridicule and labeled a CB'er?

Sure makes me want to join in.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by NI0C on February 4, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K9RWE:
If you have comments on the topic of CW key clicks, then by all means join in the discussion. The person who received the "Ten-Four" had nothing to say, and in fact, ridiculed CW ops. He deserved the "Ten-Four," in my opinion. Tom's article addressed ways that CW operation could be rendered more interference free. I've had my license a while, and don't recall a time when "key clicks were a welcome signature to a signal."
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by N3ZOC on February 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
All I can say is that when I have my stroke and are unable to voice my requirements or desires, I will be glad that my loved ones know that I know CW and I can wiggle my finger and talk to them, however slowly.
 
Key Clicks  
by KR5C on February 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To Rob Peebles....I should have this problem of being able to copy at 70WPM. I surely do envy you Rob. Pracice has not gotten me to 40WPM in 30 years. Congratulations on your phemonenal accomplishment. George KR5C.
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by G3SEK on February 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Earlier, someone wrote that:

>I am still not convinced that the MP needs modification.

Well, I just bought an old MP, and tried W8JI's modification. When you listen on another radio, just outside the filter passband, you can *hear* the clicks disappear as you tweak the two trimpots. Now tell me that wasn't necessary...

For the people who still don't get it... the reason we want you to get rid of those clicks is not for your benefit, but for ALL THE REST OF US!

It is perfectly true that the rigs should not have left the factory in that condition - it's like they built a brand-new car with a hole in the muffler. But that is not an excuse to do nothing. It's now *your* rig and *your* responsibility, either to fix it or to have it fixed.


(By the way, I didn't run a wire from the RF board as detailed on Tom's web page, but simply piggybacked a 0.1uF chip straight on to the existing C1216, the brown component on the triangle-shaped foil trace that connects to Q1034. The other four added components - two trimpots and two Cs - mount on a small piece of perf-board, stuck to the chassis near the corner of the IF board by a double-sided foam pad.)
 
Key Clicks  
by W4CNG on February 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm glad I own a T-T Jupiter and only surf along at 10-15 WPM. Sorry to hear about all the other rig problems that surface at the + Light CW Speeds.. We do need to have the ARRL Labs testing into CW Light Speeds for All-Mode Rigs...

Steve W4CNG
 
RE: Key Clicks  
by VE3WGO on March 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Transmit bandwidth varies directly as information rate. The sidebands of a clickless 100 WPM CW (dots) signal are centered at roughly +/- 42 Hz from the carrier, so the total signal bandwidth is something around 90 Hz or so.

The CW characters are really just a string of amplitude modulated RF pulses (amplitude shift keying or ASK), and the baseband rate is 42 Hz. For example, take 100 WPM x 5 chars per word x 5 dots per char / 60 seconds per minute = 41.6 dots per second. Each dot in a well-shaped CW signal could be looked at like a single pulse of a sine wave (although that does somwhat oversimplify the matter). If dashes, or characters with fewer dots or dashes are sent, or the keying rate is reduced, then the bandwidth decreases correspondingly.

The spectrum of a string of dots of a "smooth" CW signal with a well-shaped 5 msec rise time is very roughly equal to a sine wave with a 20 msec period, ie 50 Hz, and relatively weak harmonics which decrease smoothly every 50 Hz in its output spectrum. On the other hand, a clicky CW signal with 1 msec sharp edges and some overshoot, would look more like a square wave which is very rich in strong harmonics, and the overshoot could result in possible overshoot in successive amplifer stages which would produce even more harmonic products, some of it falling into the signal passband (ie, splatter).

Either one of these waves would be well-controlled by passing through a 500 Hz filter, since the edges would be slowed and the overshoot would be suppressed on the clicky signal (since the overshoot's frequency and harmonics would fall outside of the filter's passband), while the "smooth" CW signal would be relatively unchanged.

Sending these signals through a 2500 Hz filter though, does little to either signal, and allows the clicky signal to stay that way for the most part.

So passing Tx CW through a 500 Hz filter seems to be a great idea.
 
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to discussions on this article.

Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help

Related News & Articles
Key Clicks
Making CW More Popular... A Proposal:
K.I.S.S.
After The Dust Settles What's Left?
A Nice Touch


Other General Articles
eHam.net - server performance issues
USS Indianapolis CA-35 Radio Room
Lecher Wire Follow-Up
eHam Hiccup
Icom HM 98 or HM 133 Hand Mic Project