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Two-Meter Protocol

KN9H (KN9H) on March 29, 2003
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Has anyone run into something like this while out of town? -- I made a call from my hand-held radio on the 146.88 machine near Washington yesterday afternoon by announcing "KN9H Monitoring." Somebody came back and said, "Is that you?" Another person answered and said "No" but began a conversation with the first responder.

This went on uninterrupted for several minutes... when there finally was a break I signed out of the repeater by transmitting "KN9H clear." One of them asked the other what does that mean, and as I turned off the radio they were in discussion of that. Neither person was rude, but both seemed totally unfamiliar with 2-meter protocol not to mention totally self-absorbed.

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Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD7KGX on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe they weren't hams. All it takes to operate on 2m is a trip to the local Radio Shack.

The ARRL web page had a letter from the FCC on it a year or so ago to several non-hams who had purchased 2m H/Ts and were using them for communications.

It's probably not as rare as we'd think.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by W4TYU on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It seems that "Two Meter Protocols" differ in various areas. There are no graven in stone operational procedures in amateur radio even though some are treated as such.

I agree that the unknown operators were either unknowing or unaware and may have run afoul of identification requirements. For my part I do not use "call CLEAR" when leaving a repeater. I borrow from long lost HF procedure and say "call CLOSING" and turn the switch.

Don't sweat procedure or protocol too much. Just have fun and enjoy the hobby.

Ole man JEAN
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4OOA on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Two-Meter Protocol? There isn't any protocol anywhere! Don't feel bad, the HF bands are getting just about as bad. There are lots of ops that don't want to ID or only ID themself (Are you talking to me?). What ever happened to pro-signs. I know, I am an old GI operator but it works and we used in the military and when I was first licensed. I know, it don't sound cool. What are we trying for cool or reliable communications? Too many operators today want cool.

Welcome to the new CB bands. Pass a nothing test and win a license. If that's too much trouble don't bother just go to Radio Shack and plug it in. That's ham radio today. Now remember we must be PC and not keep anybody out even though they are unwilling to learn and unfit operators. The numbers are what important, not quality of the operators!

It is time for us to clean house and get the help of FCC. They need to give Riley a bunch more help! Get the fines going and FCC could finance themself on that a year or so. I can remember when they were respected and feared as much as the wouf houng. Now there's little respect let alone fear.

What is wrong with having to show ID and your license to buy a anything that creates RF radiation in the ham bands. Also the seller having to keep this with a copy of the invoice (required by IRS and I'd want one as a bill of sale) and having penalities for selling to unlicensed persons or not keeping documentation. Oh, you're new and don't have a license; buy a receiver or wait until your license arrives.

This is just my two cents worth. Don't worry or get upset. It will never happen in this I'm sucking air so give it to me society that we live in. Ham radio is only a cross section of it.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by JN3XCV on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have toa gree with the last post that 2m protocol is CB protocol.

In my area the otehr day I was running some propogation studies as we had a pretty large meteor shower. mostly I was listening for the rocks in the OSCAR subband 144.3 to 144.5 my though that this would be a very quiet band. But I ran into a roundtable of guys all running FM and have a local chat. I knew one of them so sent an email about band plans and friendly sharing of the frequencies. I did get a bit of a holering at as it seems the group is "tired of all the people complaining about their use of the frequency". Obiviously the get a clue light has not lit yet.

scott
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4TKH on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm one of the new no nothing test taker and I wanted to take a minuet to thank you for your kind words. It is gracious of you to let me know that I am the lowest of low and that I am not a TRUE HAM. So I will go and smash my Rig, burn the license I received from my NO NOTHING TEST, and have the VEC shot.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA7CC on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
We are all hurt by lowered standards. The sense of personal accomplishment is diminished and the feeling of "belonging" is lost when licensing becomes a pro forma application.

The license tests, moving from Novice to General to ..., yes, even the code test, were rights of passage that created a bond of camaraderie among hams.

New hams, you have no choice in the test you take, but you may be viewed with a cold eye. Old hams wonder if you care about the tradition and spirit of ham radio.

If something is hard to achieve then the achievement has more value. Again, new hams, you have no choice, you take the test that is offered by the FCC. But please understand if the old goats wait to see if you demonstrate the character that should be a part of ham radio.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by AA8RF on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ron,

You are not all that new anymore but congrats anyway.

73,
-Jim
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC0LPV on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The gripers on here are not just part of the problem--they are MOST of it.

If you want 2m usage to improve, then you must USE it and show by example.

If the OT's throw up their hands and run away any time someone doesn't follow acceptiable operating procedure, you will run from band to band until there are none left.

2m is a very important mobile communications and emergency communications band, and it would be negligant of the amateur community to let the standards drop away.

I'm young, I've only had my license for a year and a half, and I manage to use proper operating procedure--including "kc0lpv clear" when I'm no longer monitoring or using the repeater. I use proper operating procedure every time I operate, even if others don't. Eventually, they pick up on it, just like I listen to the local elmers to pick up on their operating procedure.

73,

Jim
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by N0VZ on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Let's not turn this into another old ham vs new ham or old test vs new test argument. What a bunch of crap. You can hear most of the same poor operating techniques, and much worse, from the old farts that inhabit parts of 75m and 40m phone bands. There are plenty of poor operators that are both new hams and those that have been around a long time. The only way to make a difference is to set a good example yourself, the FCC is not going to be much help with poor operating habits. They only bother with the worst cases of interference and unlicensed operation.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by N6AJR on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
First off, we don't decide what test we take, the FCC does, so get off the "no code tech are not real hams" crap. You realize they did exactly what was required to get their ticket when they took the test. We are all just as much a ham as any one else.

They are probably as good a ham as you or even better.. they don't call you names... I was a 2 meter tech for 20 years, took the test at the fcc office in San Francisco in 1978 for tech, never was a novice, never got past 5 WPM, was finally grandfathered in, in 2000 as a general, and took and passed the test for Extra a week and a day later.

SO does that make me a lousy ham because I didn't pass 20 wpm to become extra, or is the fact that I spent 8 year in the military in classified electronics and passed the written easily, but couldn't do the code so I stayed a tech for so long make me a lousy ham? Hey I was even a C.B er and still have my Fcc issued license for that band also, so I guess I am really dirt now, eh.

The fact that I have gotten 6 new hams interested enough to get their license's doesn't count, or the fact that I gave each and every one of them a HT, and a 30 watt linear and a mag mount 2 meter antenna as a good job reward, doesn't count. I also sent stuff to help the USS Hornet's radio club a bit, and sent stuff to a school in kenya that is training some new ham (kids), and sent stuff to a couple of kids in marin who are starting a ham club at their school. None of this matters because I was a tech, and a CBer too, so that makes me a lousy ham..

All you so called "experts" can go fly a kite. I do 10 through 160 hf ssb, and rag chew, and contest too, and work some of the nets, I am active on several 2 meter repeaters and find most folks on the 2 meter band are gracious and quite knowledgeable, and I work some LEO satalites, and I play with antennas, and I have a HF mobile station set up, do psk 31, and lots more.

This is a hobby and to all the New Tech's out there, Welcome to the hobby and forgive those small brained, closed minded hippocrites (spelling) that call them selves hams. Cw does not a ham make. You will take the test the FCC gives to upgrade, and they make the choice there once again, so don't let the fools bring you down. Look past them to the many "good" hams out there that welcome you with open arms, and don't ever act like the ones you despise and eventually they will all dissappear..

73 and good luck tom N6AJR
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N6TGK on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC0LPV has a valid point. The only minor problem I have is on the 147.030 repeater I use here in San Diego. My friends and I will be in conversation, allowing a three or four second pause between transmissions so anyone that wants to break in can do so. But on numerous occasions we've been in a QSO, only to un-key the microphone and find that someone is making a call or just started making a call. Apparently, people on this machine just turn the radio on and start calling without listening first...either that or they're listening for a while and don't hear anything so they start calling only to realize they have the volume knob all the way down.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K1MKF on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Lots of sub-topics here.

Were they chatting without IDing? Bad!

Did they not invite you in or give you a chance to join in? Rude!

Someone said 144.3 - 144.5 was an OSCAR subband but heard FM. Around here there is ATV liason FM in there and I'm not sure but I thought the national APRS FM AFSK packet is also in there. I thought the OSCAR subband was moved but admit not doing Sats for years.

Does a electronically difficult or otherwise demanding (CW) test solve this problem? I think it just lowers the numbers and therefore if the percentage of bad ops is fixed it lowers those numbers, too.

Would the need of a license to purchase gear help? Sure! Have the FCC run an instant background check like required of gun purchases. You want to sell a rig, business or private, you call the FCC with the purchasers info, during normal business hours, and if he is licensed and his ticket has not been revoked you get an authorization number. This same idea has eliminated illegal possession of firearms in America.

I think the best method is to encourage proper operation by example and explaination. If that doesn't work then tune out the bad ops. They'll go away when they run out of people to talk to. Then you can buy their gear, cheap!
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC0FDE on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It seems that the whole code vs no code is the same as hitler and the jews. He didnt like them because he didnt feel they were equal to him so he condemned them... I suppose to the ones who do not like to see change and like to gripe the no coders are just jews in their eyes. I say why not accept the testing, the FCC is free to make their test and if hams do not like new guys who did what they had to do then oh well. I say that for all of the older men who say guys who didnt have to pass a code test are not hams should have to retest on all digital modes of ham radio to keep their licenses and all no coders test on code to keep their tickets. Ham radio is a hobby and no one mode should be required to master if the FCC says that is no longer in effect. Let's place all of our time and effort into make the new hams feel welcome and teaching them right that way they become good hams rather than knocking them down that only makes them treat their ham radio as a cb radio. If we do not make new hams feel welcome and teach them then they will become what "old timers" do not want in ham radio.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KE2IV on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
So another self-appointed frequency cop writes in to complain, this time about "protocol" on 2M. Knowing all along that he'll "get the hounds a'bayin again!" The code vs. no-code, the oldies vs. the newbies etc. ad nauseum!

Protocol is nothing more than what is considered an accepted practice but it is not required. Further, it seems to me that the writer here was VISITING another repeater. He has no reason to expect that they would adhere to HIS version of protocol.

When I invite you into my house, I do not give you permission to re-arrange the furniture!

Get over it!
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by K4SRB on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Regarding protocol ... (on the air AND off):

A review of "The Amateur's Code" is instructive. This was written by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA, in 1928 (*75* years ago). Reviewing the chapter on operating procedure in your license examination preparation manual would also help.

In the scenario presented, no one did anything contrary to the rules ... barring that the other two operators did not identify every 10 minutes.

Some folks are just not very thoughtful ... half the time they really do not intend to be inconsiderate. They just get excited talking to their buddies and forget good procedure.

Follow the rules, observe the customs, and use some common sense.

Talk UP ham radio (don't talk down to it)

73
Ivan
K4SRB
Tallahassee
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K1CJS on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here's my two cents:

To N0VS, you said it! The bad ops on the lower bands are far more plentiful than on the 2 mtr and 440 mhz bands.

To WA7CC and N6AJR, bravo and thanks! Those points needed bringing up as well.

We should all remember, however, that if an operator is licensed for the band they're operating on, they have as much right as anyone else who can operate on that band. As someone said, if we can't get along, we don't belong on ANY amateur band.

For pete sakes, lets drop the arguments and find ways to advance and strengthen the hobby, not kill it!
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD7UKT on March 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, KG4OOA, you must really hate yourself too, if you hate those that take a "nothing" test... according to the FCC database, your license grant was effective in July 2001, over a year AFTER the big changeover to no-code techs (which occured April 15, 2000), and there is no "previous license class" listed, so this must be your first license. So how does it feel to have a "nothing" license yourself, after taking a "nothing" test?

Myself, I am very proud to be a General class Amateur Radio Operator, and an ARRL VE, and quite honored that both my nation and the ARRL would entrust me with a license and a VE badge. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I try to live up to that trust, and make Amateur Radio better (hence the VE badge), instead of sitting around and moaning about how bad things have gotten!

--David, KD7UKT, proud General Class Amateur and ARRL VE
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA8VBX on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ah, so now I know why the Portocol is so bad. Because of those that passed the Nothing Test. Come on, if that was the problem then the FCC would know how to fix it, make the test harder, and require those that wanted to up grade to General or Above sit in front of a examiner in person.
For the ex-GI, did you know who was a Colonel and who was a Lt when you first went into the military? I don't think so, so you were taught the difference between enlisted and officers.
Protocol has to be learned and it does vary from different parts of the country. It is like learning good manners. It takes time, and maybe some corrections, given the right way.
Protocol is also respect, and that is going down also.

For the ex-GI, I sat in front of a examiner to take my cw/written test to upgrade to General in Detroit years ago, and I am also retired Army.

To those that took the Nothing Test, keep at it. If you could learn everything before you took the test, we all be Extra's and who would need the FCC.

73
Kurt
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by N8UZE on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This has drifted far off the original subject. From the information in the initial post, I would be very suspicious that the people talking on that repeater were NOT licensed hams. Thus the activity should be reported to the FCC for investigation. If they were licencsed hams the problem is even more serious as they did not ID. Again it should be reported to the FCC for investigation. Regardless of what anyone believes to be the ease or difficulty of the current test, there is always a question about identification requirements on the test. If they are licensed and not IDing, then they are willfully violating the rules.

This is a rules violation not a protocol issue.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD7UKT on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Good point, N8UZE... even licensed Technicians should know the requirements for IDing while on the air. In the current Technician question pool, there are 4 questions on identifying that can appear on the applicant's test (T1D07, T1D08, T1D09, and T1D10). Therefore, anyone who has successfully passed the new Technician test should be well aware of the requirements for identifying while on the air... even if they did pass the "nothing" no-code test.

--David, KD7UKT, ARRL VE
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KN4AQ on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If you are interested in a review of VHF/UHF FM procedures, you'll find one at:
www.rars.org/repeater/rptrgide.htm

Feel free to copy and adapt this guide for your own club's web site.

For those hams living in the Southeast, FM and Repeater operating are routinely covered in the Repeater Journal, the magazine of the SouthEastern Repeater Association. See www.sera.org for more info.

73,
Gary KN4AQ
Editor, SERA Repeater Journal
FM/Repeater Columnist, CQ VHF Magazine
kn4aq@arrl.net
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N7PTM on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
When someone says "<call> monitoring", I simply drive on & let them monitor the silence. If they want to talk, they need to say so, like ask if anyone's on freq.

I do consider it poor operating procedure to say that you're monitoring, but it's not a big deal.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5MYJ on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I thought the idea of announcing that you are monitoring was to let others know you were available if one of YOUR BUDDIES want to talk with you.

And announcing you are CLEAR when you leave is also a polite way of letting the others MONITORING that you are no longer listening and not to bother trying to call you.

SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL WITH DOING SUCH?

50 years ago it was "OFF AND CLEAR". US military procedure.

I left this hobby thirty years ago. I returned recenently. Now reading the message boards brings back memories why I left in the first place. A HOBBY IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN. At least I don't see the bickering on my local 2M repeaters that I see on these message boards.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Puyallup, Wa.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4YJR on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I wouldn't let comments like that bother me. In my area I've heard a few people griping about the local repeater getting a little too crowded. They miss having the band all to themselves the most of the day. That's a small group though. The majority of the local hams have welcomed my wife (also newly licensed) and I to this exciting hobby and are never complacent when we break in. The techician question pool will be larger in July but even passing a more difficult test won't keep people that are jerks and inconsiderate off the air.
73
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by W5HTW on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
"I thought the idea of announcing that you are monitoring was to letothers know you were available if one of YOUR BUDDIES want to talk with you.

And announcing you are CLEAR when you leave is also a polite way of letting the others MONITORING that you are no longer listening and not to bother trying to call you.

SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL WITH DOING SUCH?

50 years ago it was "OFF AND CLEAR". US military procedure ..."



Never heard that in the military I was in 40 years or so ago, so guess things changed a bit. We used prosigns such as "Over" meaning "go ahead, now it's your turn to talk" and "Out" meaning "I'm outta here and I'm making no more transmissions." "Off and clear" is pretty redundant, since either word alone gives the message "I'm not here anymore." Like the Buck Rogers' "Over and Out." "Over" means you can transmit, and "out" means I ain't listening but talk your little head off anyway. I did hear "off and clear" in the ham bands in the 50s and a bit in the sixties, but again, it's redundant, presuming "off" to mean I'm off the frequency and "clear" to mean I'm off the frequency.

Redundancy, though, must be fun, for now I'm hearing "over, over" as the end of a lot of transmissions, which I really think is just someone's way of hearing his own horn tooting for just one more word before giving up his side of the conversation. But that's on HF, not 2 meters.

Personally, I have no particular argument at all with the "monitoring" comment. I'm not sure what message it conveys, and I think it stems from the CB "I got my ears on." Why not just say "This is (call) Is anyone around for a contact?" Or: "Is anyone on the frequency?"

I'm like one of the other guys - if someone hops on and says "(Call) monitoring" I'm rather of the opinion I don't care if he's monitoring or not, he hasn't asked for a contact. He is just telling the world that he has his receiver on. No problem with that, but it isn't inviting me - or anyone else - to call him. We have a fellow in this area who drives truck and his "CQ??" is to say "This is (call) riding along." Yep, sounds like a CQ to me ... Not! He could say "This is (call) taking a nap" or "eating a hot dog." Or: Sipping a coffee. It conveys no invitation.

So I turn the 2 meter rig in the car on (yes I do have one - car AND 2 meter rig) and I know I'm monitoring. If I hear something exciting, I may respond to it. If someone says "Anyone out there listening?" I may just hop in there and say howdy. But if he says "monitoring" well, I'm doing the same thing, so we can just keep at it.

I did hear one ham using the expression "(call) clear" to announce that she had arrived home and was turning the radio off. She wasn't in contact with anyone, so she was just announcing to the world in general that she was no longer listening. And I doubt the world in general gave a darn.

73
ed
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5MYJ on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
"over and out" was the military procedure of both WWi and the Koprean period. The "off and clear" was the ham procedure of the late 50s and 60s that I remember. Just my age showing.

"over" meant you were through with that particular transmission. It is kind of like the BEEP some repaters have today. "Out" ment that you have no more traffic.

I am waiting to hear someone cal CQ on a repeater. Often times when someone announces they are monitorin some will come back and start a QSO. So what's wrong with that.

Last December I purchased my first ARRL handbook since 1969. It is very different from what the old handbooks were. There is no infomation on accepted procedure anywhere in the new book. I beleive it was covered in operating practices in the old books.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Puyallup, Wa.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB1IVU on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
No offence to anyone out here but my ARRL repeater directory suggests under operating practices "to initiate a contact simply indicate you are on frequency. Various geographical areas have different practices on making yourself known but generally "This is KUOX monitoring" will suffice. On the practice of selling equipment to non hams I had a Icom 207H in my vehicle I bought 1 year before I took the exam. It kept my intrest in the hobby while studying and now three of my friends since have done the same thing and have their ticket. Never even thought of transmitting on it and I had some small understanding of proper protocal when licenced.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD7KOY on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe some are taking this stuff way too serious IMHO...
This is radio..not a career...: P
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N8UZE on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
RE: Two-Meter Protocol Reply
by N7PTM on March 30, 2003
"When someone says "<call> monitoring", I simply drive on & let them monitor the silence. If they want to talk, they need to say so, like ask if anyone's on freq.

I do consider it poor operating procedure to say that you're monitoring, but it's not a big deal."

Actually it is rather odd that you consider this poor practice as all the study guides currently in print and operating manuals currently in print recommend the use of '<call> monitoring' or '<call> listening' or simply stating your call for repeater contacts.

Saying that you are listening or monitoring means your willing to talk to anyone who wants to. Otherwise, you could monitor without saying anything.


 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by RS2002 on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, since the gripers are out in force, let's nip another thing in the bud. Very soon, if not already, you'll need another source for your venom concerning where people get their radios from, as now you can't just "go down to RadioShack and pick some up." Done. Finished. Kaput. No more amateur radio gear at RadioShack. (There are probably a few pieces left, here and there. It IS a big company, after all.) Hams didn't support the product line. (Hams, or whoever was buying those radios - geeze, if there were soooooo many people just coming in and buying those HT's, licensed or not, maybe there would still be enough demand to keep us in the amateur radio business? I guess we haven't been selling enough of them to "just anyone". Really, is that possible? After all, here at eHam, it is considered gospel that RadioShack will sell ham gear to anyone, any time. Wow, what a thought!)
So start figuring out some other source for the ills of today's ham radio. That whipping boy is, indeed, Over and Out.
Oh yeah. HAVE SOME FUN. :)
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC2IYK on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Some harsh stuff going on... As a fairly new ham, I've made mistakes on the air and been politely corrected by local long-timers. Those same long-timers also slip up on occasion- big deal. About the only thing we should all be worried about is the unlicensed punks that buy the rig and get on the air. Amongst ourselves, we should be tolerant of our fellow man and ladies. We're all human, don't you know... Stick to the rules, strive for good manners and upholding the traditions of radio and our country, and don't worry about who's new and old.

73 All

Lee KC2IYK
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD7UKT on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
RS, you act like the truth will stop the gripers... in my experience, people like them tend to ignore the truth.
 
"de AD6WL monitoring"  
by AD6WL on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
When you announce "callsign monitoring" that means that your are listening and that your are available if anyone wants to chat but you are not trying to make a contact with anyone. Your simply letting them know you are around. If your plan is to just listen and you definitely don't want to talk to anyone then don't say anything. You don't have to announce that you are just listening. If you really want to talk to someone then give your call and ask "is anyone listening", or something similar.

I see no reason to announce that you are "clear" unless you are leaving a QSO with someone or someone is counting on you to monitor the frequency. Of course we all know that we must identify at least every ten minutes. There is no requirement to identify at the beggining of a QSO but it is normal practice to do.

de AD6WL, clear
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by N0YGY on March 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Curious how all of these types of debates always return to Code/no Code, Old Timer/Green Horn, HF/VHF, Less Filling/Tastes Great, etc. The fact is that that operating procedure is operating procedure. People old and new, on any bands using any modes can and have used poor operating procedures. You'll hear tune-ups and CQ's on the HF bands voice and digital. You'll hear repeater ops not leave a pause between contacts in the middle of a QSO. I could go on, but...

The fact is that MOST operators are courteous. Unfortunately it is always the poor operators that we remember. How many of you can comment on this great operator you had a QSO with who used the BEST of operating procedure? I'll bet you don't give your QSO much thought, until some LID tunes up on top of you!

Lastly, regarding this Code/No Code debate, really now think about it. What are they supposed to test you on? We have questions about RTTY, satellites, propagation, operating frequencies, circuit design and electronics, etc. Does everyone operate RTTY? I don't think so! Mabye we should do away with those questions! Does everyone build circuits? I doubt it. Lets do away with those, too! Maybe we should just have a test on how to push the button on the mike and that's all that we need to know. You wouldn't have to learn and formulas, memorize any frequencies, or learn the code!

The code, like any other modes we are allowed to use, is on the test. Unfortunately it is tested differently that the other requirements, but that's because you can't put dits and dahs on the test. That's not how you use the code. The other digital modes are de-coded by machine (PC) so you don't have to "listen" to them for the test, but you do need to know about mark and space, parity bits, baud rates, ascending/descending passes, and such.

With all the modes and bands, there is so much that a ham can do, how about we enjoy the company and comraderie we have. Welcome the new hams, and encourage the old hams. We are a family, are we not?

73, ***-*-, clear, Elvis has left the building!
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by W9JCM on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The local 2 meter protocol here in N. Nevada is like talking to someone on the cb bands. I am standing by on the side, 10-4 and a whole slew of Q codes. Many times I have turned RED listening to it saying GUYS when you talk on 2M FM your supposed to talk like your having a convo with a person. NO codes and yes and no's will do fine. Well needless to say I have sold every 2meter/440 piece of equipment and I am happier for it. This is the dumbing down of ham radio. Not to say HF doesnt have its jerks, we sure do. But, I find it a more enjoyable spot for my hobby activites.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB0KFX on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi all. Just a short note of feedback to this topic or related to. It seems like any online forum there is a lot of bickering and I will not resort to personal attacks. As far as protocol goes, without referring to the Tech manual, but I believe to announce your presence and make a contact, one should say <call> monitoring or listening. Either gets the point accross and is accepted pretty much everywhere.

Many indivuals in this thread have said it best, "teach by example". We are getting a new audience of hams at an accelerated rate. On the average, the time to study and pass the test for an entry level license is less than when those of use entering as a Novice. As a result the material is crammed in much faster and doesn't get a chance to sink in to the students/hams to be. The best thing to do is to properly demonstrate and elmer the new hams by making a radio contact as an introduction. VE's and/or teachers, make sure all your new hams have an elmer. I don't think the new generation of hams know what "elmer" even means. Help them select their first radio. Invite them to your local 2m repeater. Set the example. Take it from a ham who went through nothing to 20wpm and Extra in less than a year when 14 yrs old and waiting to be a VE for another 3. I was elmered, encouraged by my local hams to push myself technically. It is probably one of the best things that has ever happened to me by seeding a growing interest into a engineering career. My story may be a little unique, but it shows a little can go a long way.

Technician hams have so much to offer and don't have to be looked down upon. Some of the most active hams in the community I know have a Technician class. If they have a desire to operate on HF, learn the code since CW is more of an HF activity than anything.

Fellow hams, be open minded. I think that trait tends to drift away in the aging process. Or maybe that is just my own opinion.

73's

Scott
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD4OVR on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have run into very similar situiations as was previously described. True some or even most of these may be just lazy hams, a large portion of which were former 11 meter operators or freebanders, who brought along with them the lingo most familiar to them, I am not chastizing these individuals however if this is how you chose to operate please do so in the venue where it is acceptable, even if it is rude,and tasteless.

Walter A. Fipps Jr.
KD4OVR
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by K2EPM on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Gee, it sounds like some of the stuff I hear in the morning on NY's W2VL repeater.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WF3M on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
My favorite is "Nothing heard."
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by WB2WIK on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I don't believe it's at all necessary to "sign CLEAR" with a repeater -- seems like one wasted transmission serving no particular purpose. This is equivalent to signing "clear" with a frequency after calling CQ and not getting any replies.

Under the circumstances described, I would have tossed my callsign in during a break between transmissions of the other two stations and said "hello." Just because they didn't acknowledge your original transmission doesn't mean they'd continue to ignore you. When "out of town," I find the best way to introduce myself and make new friends on the local FM channels is to break in and ask directions to anywhere. The locals usually trip over each other trying to be helpful, and now we've all met.

WB2WIK/6

 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N8VQJ on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What's wrong with it? That way your XYL can't go buy you your radio for your Birthday, Christmas or Father's Day. Remember, Ham's like gifts too!
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N8VQJ on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
BS! If someone comes on freq and says they are listening or monitoring....they USUALLY would like to TALK! To me it's the equivalent of asking if there is anyone on frequency. Just because they don't "do it" like you doesn't mean that it's wrong. If anyone does any of those three things and I can talk, I TALK! Also, listening is just as important as talking. Chatty hams, remember that. Get a round robin going and when someone breaks in, invite them in if they'd like. If all they need is to throw a call out and then move to another frequency, let them do that even. Be polite. Be gracious. Be forgiving. Don't monopolize the machine and be al means ID! Also, when you do, just throw out your call. Saying <Callsign> fr ID sounds stupid. It's like saying ID for ID. Your call IS your ID. Just saying that is sufficient. On the other hand, if someone says that, I never chastise them for it. On the air is NOT the place for chastisement. Only do it in a newsletter or face to face thing. Also, listen to the ops you respect and emulate them a bit. They did not come to know what they know by being out of the hobby. Respect everyone. No-coders and coders alike. We are all hams no matter when we got our license. Whether you took your first test at a FCC office or a VEC, it's the same.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol - KG4OOA  
by KD7PLU on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The FCC lost any credibility or 'Fear and Respect' when they went the way of commercial driven interests. They're nothing more than a figurehead of bureaucrats dancing to the hush-hush puppet money of big business. Your worse ham/lid still deserves more credit for being a professional than anyone on the commission. The industry takes advantage of Type Acceptance for a profit margin, pushes out the 400 and 800 Mhz spectrum and squeezes Public Safety out of the reliable VHF/UHF frequencies for crappy digital BS APCO garbage. The HDTV fiasco is a perfect example if FCC Ignorance. The FCC is a failure. If they were even handed and did their job instead of bending toward corporate arrogance, we'd all be better off and the commission would actually mean something. Screw the FCC . . .

Loren B. Cobb / KD7PLU
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC0ODY on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm a new ham and I had no choice as to which tests I took- I didn't complain about what was in them, and had nothing to compare them to. As far as oldtimers giving us new hams a cold shoulder without us "proving" something to them, well, I'd like to ask the oldtimers to show us newbies how it's done. Otherwise, please understand we are new, and not likely to be terribly aware of the older traditions and spirit of ham radio, and this doesn't come naturally or automatically when one gets a ticket.

I am more than willing to be a part of the traditions and spirit, it's just that it's hard to pick these up solely by reading (which I have done a LOT of)- it's much more picked up by sharing via the people who've been in it for awhile.

But- if someone's automatically against a newbie just because they are a newbie and not familiar with tricks and traditions, then I call that plain prejudice. Though respect must be earned (nothing comes for free, especially respect) the last thing this hobby needs is discouraging sorts looking down on the newcomers without a good reason for doing so. In other words, just for being *new*. But in order to learn and garner respect, newcomers should also be willing to be in "teachable" mode all the time when they are first learning, so they are in the best frame of mind to absorb the history and traditions of AR.

It goes both ways...
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by NE0P on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Would the need of a license to purchase gear help? Sure! Have the FCC run an instant background check like required of gun purchases. You want to sell a rig, business or private, you call the FCC with the purchasers info, during normal business hours, and if he is licensed and his ticket has not been revoked you get an authorization number. This same idea has eliminated illegal possession of firearms in America.

IF YOU BELIEVE THIS ONE, I HAVE SOME TOWERS IN FLORIDA I WOULD LIKE TO SELL YOU. NOPE, NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS IN AMERICA TODAY.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by NE0P on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Would the need of a license to purchase gear help? Sure! Have the FCC run an instant background check like required of gun purchases. You want to sell a rig, business or private, you call the FCC with the purchasers info, during normal business hours, and if he is licensed and his ticket has not been revoked you get an authorization number. This same idea has eliminated illegal possession of firearms in America.

IF YOU BELIEVE THIS ONE, I HAVE SOME TOWERS IN FLORIDA I WOULD LIKE TO SELL YOU. NOPE, NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS IN AMERICA TODAY.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KF4VCA on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In Anaheim, CA, on a business trip, I had along my 2 meter HT to monitor local hams and maybe make a contact or two. What I found, instead, were repeaters dominated by unknown and unidentified persons who ranted (make that "screamed") nonstop vile profanity. It was like listening to a level of what an obscene hell must be like. I could not believe it. No call signs, no protocol. Just people with radios that were using the repeaters as they obscene bully pulpit.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KF4VCA on March 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In Anaheim, CA, on a business trip, I had along my 2 meter HT to monitor local hams and maybe make a contact or two. What I found, instead, were repeaters dominated by unknown and unidentified persons who ranted (make that "screamed") nonstop vile profanity. It was like listening to a level of what an obscene hell must be like. I could not believe it. No call signs, no protocol. Just people with radios that were using the repeaters as their private obscene bully pulpit.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by NT9E on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It's very possible that the two non-IDing operators were operating on echo link as non-hams. If the uninformed were to get a hold of the echolink program and knew nothing of ham radio protocol, what you decribed is more than likely is what you would hear from someone ignorant of Amateur rules, regs, and protocol. IMHO.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB6KGX on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Don't blame Radio Shack. As you should be aware, your license is an OPERATORS license. A license is NOT required to purchase or possess ANY amateur radio equipment. Once you key that mic, though, then the license, or lack of it, becomes an issue.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB6KGX on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
NOTHING is wrong with having to show your license when purchasing ham equipment. I'm all for it! Every time I go into HRO, whether it's buying a radio or a simple "duck" antenna... they always ask for my call sign. There is a "field" on their sales documentation for it. Still, it's not required. They can't, or shouldn't, refuse a sale because someone is not yet licensed. Sure, we're taking a chance that they won't bother to get it, but that's the way the law is.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB6KGX on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
NOTHING is wrong with having to show your license when purchasing ham equipment. I'm all for it! Every time I go into HRO, whether it's buying a radio or a simple "duck" antenna... they always ask for my call sign. There is a "field" on their sales documentation for it. Still, it's not required. They can't, or shouldn't, refuse a sale because someone is not yet licensed. Sure, we're taking a chance that they won't bother to get it, but that's the way the law is.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KB6KGX on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
NOTHING is wrong with having to show your license when purchasing ham equipment. I'm all for it! Every time I go into HRO, whether it's buying a radio or a simple "duck" antenna... they always ask for my call sign. There is a "field" on their sales documentation for it. Still, it's not required. They can't, or shouldn't, refuse a sale because someone is not yet licensed. Sure, we're taking a chance that they won't bother to get it, but that's the way the law is.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4VJD on April 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Usually, I don't want to response to this kind of subject. We have a local HAM group that has a blend of different HAM operating classes on the repeater. I believe the most important thing is to always observe common courtesy and the FCC rules. Properly identify. Identify if you need to test if you can hit the repeater. Knows when to talk and when not to talk. Listen more to the QSO on the repeater and pick up the common practice there. I don't believe the differences in operating classes seperate people. It's the extend of respect you give to fellow operators.

73
- KG4VJD
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KF6KDA on April 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Jeez Louise!

This topic AGAIN ??

I have only one comment....

The "old timers" cry the hobby is dying and needs new blood, yet its their own version of new blood. It's not the 1950's guys. It will NEVER be like that again. Personally, as young as I am, I'd like to see that myself, but im not under the illusion that it will ever happen. A little tolerance goes a long way.

'nuff said.

Michael KF6KDA
 
KN9H ...  
by K4CMD on April 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Aren't you glad you asked the question now?

:D

P.S. I enjoyed your eham.net profile. You seem too scared to enter your own name or e-mail address, but you don't hesitate to list the names (and calls, for that matter) of your wife and kids!
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by NE1RD on April 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Knowledgable "old-timers" shouldn't go quiet whenever they hear something disappointing. Instead, they should hang in there and provide a positive example by showing folks what good operating techniques sound like. I think most (especially new) hams want to "do it right" -- if only they had a good example to follow. Do the service, and yourself, a favor and provide that good example. Writing off somebody (or indeed all new hams) because they don't know what you know, or say things or do things you find disappointing, can only lead to ulcers. Forgive, smile, grit your teeth if you must, then make the world a better place by showing how it's done. Newbies make mistakes. Elmers show them "how" again. Newbies try again. That's how we grow new hams.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KE2IV on April 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I always have a laugh when I hear hams insist that someone needs (or should need) a license to buy ham gear.

Say what?

Now where did anyone get the idea that you would (should) need a license to LISTEN to the ham bands? How is a new ham wannabe going to learn the darn code anyway is she or he can't buy a rig to listen and practice. (Oh and puleez don't give me the b.s. about SWL radios - ever try to copy code on one of those!).

Simple fact. You do not, and will not ever, need a license to buy (much less listen on) a rig. You do and will hopefully always need a license to transmit on one.

As to the fellow who thinks HRO asks for his call so as to protect the hobby. Sorry OM, they're just trying to keep current their customer database.

And imagine this scenario. Your significant other (a non-ham) wants to surprise you with a brand new, top of the line, super whiz-bang rig just because. She/He goes to HRO (or AES etc.) with a couple of kilobucks...but...no ham license. Do you really want the store to refuse to sell him/her that rig? :-)
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD5RWG on April 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
maybe they ware new hams?

if they where I think you made a big deal out of it.

Nathan KD5RWG
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N8UZE on April 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Very doubtful that they were new hams. Even the newest of newbies know they have to ID and know their call signs.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by AD6WL on April 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe they were hams. The original post stated he only listened for several minutes. All hams should know to identify every 10 minutes or at the end of a QSO, but some new hams may not know to id at the beggining of a QSO. Even though not required by rules, it is protocol on all bands to identify at the beggining.

After a contest on 10meters someone started to talk to me but did not idenify imediately so I gave out my call and asked for his call, but he said he didn't have a license. End of QSO.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5LDL on April 4, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hello folks...

As long as there are hams on the air, incidents like this will happen. Some of these folks REFUSE to speak to anyone other than their friends or fellow club members. Or even ID for that matter.

I had a somewhat similar situation happen to me in Utah. I was driving along, scanning the bands, hoping to scare up a QSO. I had been driving a long time and a QSO would have helped the long drive. I heard two fellows call each other out by name on a repeater. I locked in the frequency and threw out my call sign, hoping for a response. Nothing, I thought maybe I had the incorrect tone. Checking both the Directory and my rig's tone seeking ability, I KNEW I had the proper tone. Again, I ID'ed myself and still no response from these gentlemen. I resigned myself to the fact that I was not to be spoken to on that repeater. Especially after this comment: "Yeah, I heard him too. Must be one of those tourists. I'm like you, I refuse to talk to them." And so their QSO went.

I turned off my ham rig and turned on my CB. I threw out a 'handle' and was surprised to get three POSITIVE responses. I talked to and drove with those fellows from Utah down to New Mexico.

Let's face it, if folks don't want to talk to you, they won't. If they know each other well enough to talk to each other without identifying themselves and don't care if they don't ID, then they'll go right on doing so. Those of us who are polite plus observant of the rules have to know that these people are out there and can ruin a really good thing for us all.

And that, my friends, is the pity of it all.

73,

Luis KD5KJD
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5RJP on April 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In my part of the country 40 meters is a chat band with numerous groups of "old farts" talking in groups or "nets" for hours on end. Don't dare try to enter the conversation or you will be ignored. I am relativly new to HF so someone tell me the proper way to break into a conversation.

The other day I heard an obviously young man spouting vile language on the repeater I use. The legitimate hams simply ingnored him without comment. Sure enough after he got no response he went away. A procedure I will certainly adopt.

The other day I bought a closeout 10 meter mobile rig at a Radio Shack without comment from the clerk. The price tag did say a license was required to operate. Seems to me a buyer should have to show a license before purchasing ham equipment. This is now done effectively when buying an amplifier that operates on 10 meters. Why can't this be expanded without a lot of hassle to anyone. As with guns, private sales between individuals should be exempt. Mainly because anything else would be completely unenforceable.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
George (KE2IV):

I've said precisely the same thing a number of times. We stress that we'd like new operators to use good procedures; but how do they accomplish that? The answer is listen, Listen, LISTEN. But how do you listen? Well, with a radio of course. But if you can't buy a radio without a license how do you listen?
Does anyone really expect that a potential Amateur Radio Operator would buy a receive-only radio, only to have to buy a transmit capable radio once they got their license??? That would surely scare away a lot more of the potential operators.

And I WONDER how many of the "old-timers" and others demanding a license be shown to buy ham gear actually bought a receiver to listen before they were licensed and then bought a transceiver. (Or how many of them would have pursued the hobby if that were the case.)
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5MYJ on April 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
There was a time when the reciever and transmitter were seperate components. So yes some of us did buy recievers before we bought our first transmitters.

It was also with those recievers that we learned Morse Code.

Before I purchased my current 2M tranciever I programmed my Uniden scanner to listen to the local repeaters. If a person has a VHF scanner that is a viable option.

There was a time the electronic distributors would not sell parts to hams unless they could show their license.

But I don't believe that you should need to show a license before buying a transmitter anymore. But the ARRL/FCC do need to do something about this growing problem.

I did have to show my drivers license when I bought my last car.

Bob Macklin/K5MYJ
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N6HBJ on April 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I had a scanner and a shorwave reciever before I got my license. I would think that most people would at least listen for awhile before they talked-even if they already have their ticket.

When I bought my first 2 meter ham rig I did listen alot because I wanted to know the proper way things were done. Its common sense that most people would slowly acclimate themselves one way or another. Or at least they SHOULD.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K1CJS on April 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It is protocol to ID at the beginning on ALL bands? I think not. Maybe when on the HF bands and most certainly when doing CW, but on the VHF/UHF bands, people in this area know each other and use names. We try to ID every 10 minutes, but without an actual timer, sometimes it is 7 or 8 minutes, sometimes 12 or a little more.

I believe you are talking about giving out your call when you say ID at the beginning, such as someone coming on frequency and doing so, but when answered, the other party usually doesn't give out their call until some minutes into the conversation--that is 'protocol' around these here parts!! If you're known, sometimes the responding party gives the call signs for both--but that is not IDing--the regs clearly say that YOU have to give your call sign, not the other person.

Anyway, as long as we all try to operate according to regs, I don't see the big deal. Do as your group wants done, not what someone from another group or area wants done. When it comes down to it, do things the way the repeater group whose repeater you are using wants things done--THAT is proper protocol for that particular machine.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N0ZSY on April 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here's what I think of this thread:

Everyone is taking themselves way too seriously. This is the first time I've even looked at eham.net. It's kind of funny, but I always thought of Amateur Radio as a hobby, not as a career, or something to be taken nearly as seriously as I see here. This is almost getting to the point of flame wars. Consider that all Amateur Radio operators once-upon-a-time actually had a sense of family, and not just bickering.

There are different protocols for different frequences. There are different protocols for different repeaters....there are different accents in northern US and southern US. There is a difference between English and American. All accross the country there are these differences, why should it be any different with Amateur Radio? I, for one, celebrate the differences. If you want to know what someones call sign is...Break in. A lot of people consider it rude, but if they're a ligit ham, and you want to know their call, then they should understand.

73s.
Chris, N0ZSY.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N0ZSY on April 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here's what I think of this thread:

Everyone is taking themselves way too seriously. This is the first time I've even looked at eham.net. It's kind of funny, but I always thought of Amateur Radio as a hobby, not as a career, or something to be taken nearly as seriously as I see here. This is almost getting to the point of flame wars. Consider that all Amateur Radio operators once-upon-a-time actually had a sense of family, and not just bickering.

There are different protocols for different frequences. There are different protocols for different repeaters....there are different accents in northern US and southern US. There is a difference between English and American. All accross the country there are these differences, why should it be any different with Amateur Radio? I, for one, celebrate the differences. If you want to know what someones call sign is...Break in. A lot of people consider it rude, but if they're a ligit ham, and you want to know their call, then they should understand.

73s.
Chris, N0ZSY.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5RJP on April 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think anyone intends for ham radio to be anything other than a hobby, but I personally want to make an effort to "fit in" where ever I may go. Be it a new country, city, ham band, net or repeater. In order to be politically correct we are all supposed to celebrate diversity so local customs are not to be criticized as long as they are within the law.

When I am ignored on the radio it leaves me with the feeling that I have done something that offends the person on the other end. It's sort of like speaking to someone in person and have them turn around and walk off without responding.

All I asked originally in this thread was how, on the average, should another ham break into an ongoing QSO on the HF bands.

Maybe you shouldn't break in at all. I grew up with rural party lines and you never entered into a conversation when you picked up the receiver and heard one in progress. You quietly hung up and tried to use the phone again later. Perhaps that is how the HF bands operate. Such is certainly not the case on the 2 meter repeater I stay on. Everyone is openly and sincerely welcomed into any QSO. The hams on the repeater are there to rag chew and any serious business is moved to another means of communication. It is common to hear, "K5RJP please give me a land line."
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by NA5XX on April 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Calling CQ on a repeateor is a newbie mistake. At least it was for me. I learned local proceedures by doing more listeng and less talking to correct the mistake. At least I was not illegal. I did ID with my CQ call and got a response from an EXPERIENCED ham who welcomed me to the repeater and said I was doing fine.

We don't need arguments about test standards and who the better hams are. We need to welcome all operators and encourage young and old to take up the hobby. We also need those with experience to offer there service as Elmers. If the experienced hams are only going to criticis the new hams becase the test was too easy and therefor know nothing, that what are you contributing to the hobby. With out new operators, the hobby dies when you do.

As for purchasing a radio before you are lisenced. Go ahead if you are serious about getting your ticket. Moniter the bands and learn the local protocal. Just dont transmit. If the mike is detatchable then remove it and put it in a drawer. You don't need it, YET. Buy the study manual when you get the radio. With a good manual and reasonable effort you can be ready for the test in about 30 days. Enjoy and welcome to amateur radio
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Bob (K5MYJ):

I sort of understand your anology about buying the car, but before you got that license, you had to learn to drive!
I was from that same age when transmitters and receivers were seperate units. but I inherited BOTH from my brother. But I never had the desire to fire up the transmitter until after I had my license, even though I had that capability.

And saying you started with a scanner is unfortunate; it says to me (and no offense is intended here) that you thought only VHF/UHF FM was important. That is an aspect to Amateur Radio, but if prospective hams are only exposed to that, they won't experience the wonder of the lower frequency bands, and will be less inclined to upgrade.
But I think it's not realistic to think a ham-to-be is going to buy a receiver (if you can even find a really good one) and they buy a transceiver later.
I'm not really sure the "illegal operators" as big a problem as portrayed, and Riley is going after them, slowly but surely. And it seems to me that if he catches a licensed ham operating out-of-band, (deliberately) he is more strit than with an unlicensed operator. But he does have limited resources.
I do not condone illegal operations of any kind, and I'd like to see every illegal operator caught. But requiring a license to buy a radio just seems to punish the honest people, and fake licnses can always be made. (If they can make fake driver's licenses, a fake ham license would be a piece of cake!
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4YRF on April 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
well spoken!
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Chris (K1CJS):

I don't know or understand your local VHF protocol, and no offense meant, but good operating practice (whether HF, VHF or wherever) would have one call sign calling another callsign. (W9XYZ this is WA9SVD calling, or something of that sort.) So that would be considered an ID at the start of a contact. Just yelling "Hey Bob, you out there?" would probably be considered poor form, and also rude to the other people listening, as they don't know who is on the air. There could be any number of Bob's, and if Bob doesn't answer, you have made an unidentified transmission, unless you come back with your call sign. It seems even more work that way. But waiting ten minutes to ID in such a situation is something I think most people would consider rude.

In regard to repeaters, some are open to visiting operators and welcome them, others are like Country Clubs. If you are not a member, no one wants to talk to you (even if it's an "open" repeater.) There's little that can be done about that sort of behaviour.
73
Larry WA9SVD
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Just a comment to the original post:

I don't feel it's necessary to "sign out" of a repeater if you haven't been part of a conversation. Your original "call monitoring" with no reply constitutes both an ID and a final transmission (since no one responded) ID at the same time.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5RJP on April 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
On the local 2 meter repeater I use we sign in with our call then sign out with call sign and "clear". This is to tell other users when we are at the radio and when we are not. It is extremely handy! Someone calls, "K5RJP this is K5ABC". Often another ham will reply, "K5ABC this is K5DEF, K5RJP cleared out about 15 minutes ago." This leaves no doubt about the results of the call and no doubt whether or not your rig is working.

Admittedly, this repeater has a core group of 40-50 users and most are known to each other, but it is definately not a "country club". When an unknown call is heard you can bet that someone will come back and welcome the newcomer to the machine.

IMHO that is how it ought to be. If you get the cold shoulder on a repeater just pack up and move to Houston tune in 146.66.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Well, it's really a minor point. I was referring to say a visitor or another operator who for example calls "WA9SVD listening." If I got no response after a reasonable amount of time, I don't think it's necessary to say you are clear. If you have been actively in contact with someone, and didn't indicate that you were clear at the end of the contact, then it might be appropriate. And as they say, your mileage may vary. In some areas it's sort of considered an annoyance to those monitoring to hear something that conveys little if any real information. It probably varies with repeater group.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by AC6V on April 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Well we are licensing new folks with no tutoring on repeater protocol. Not that we want to make it all that formal, but the new folks should know what goes on -- on a repeater and then they can act accordingly.
New folks questions/comments on our San Diego repeater -- "What do you mean "path noise"; I didn't know I couldn't talk on the output of a repeater"; I'll raise power and be louder (already full quieting"; " I can't get into the xyz repeater -- What is PL antway"; "Anyone out there (no callsign)"; What does QRT mean; 10/4, first personal is, more CB talk.; Oh I didn't know what the beep was for!" "CQ CQ CQ KGG6XYZ listening for a call and tuning"

So I wrote a book for the repeater beginner - FM101x
at URL: http://ac6v.com/FM101.htm
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KQ2P on April 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Oh! 2 meters, Yes now I know what ya mean, the VHF CB band.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KQ2P on April 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Oh! 2 meters, Yes now I know what ya mean, the VHF CB band.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by W5BAK on April 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Standards. Well as for the lower requirements, do you wish they would bring back the old drivers test? No, I bet. You like just going down and getting a photo. Have the rules of the road changed and new signs and situations. You bet. Leave them alone. If we don't have new hams, all we will have is the old stinky grumpy ones and they will soon die. So stop crying and help these guys out.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Rod AC6V):

I agree wholeheartedly! The emphasis today is to "pass the test" (too often by memorization) and NO instruction as to proper operating "etiquette" or understanding what are "good" operating procedures! And that goes for all the organizations: W5YI, Gordon West (sorry, Gordo!) ARRL and others. They want to crank out the licenses, but in the push there is not enough emphasis HOW to operate once new operators receive their license.
Once the now operators receive their license, obviously the first thing they want to do is to get on the air! And if they are not familiar with operating procedures, yes they will make "mistakes." Mistakes only because they (and I do NOT mean this in a negative, or mean spirit way AT ALL) do not know any better. By and large, they are more than willing and eager to learn the proper procedures, but we need to ELMER them in a positive, non-threatening way.
I applaud your effort "Repeaters for Beginners." But since your web site is SO popular, could I implore you to also add a "HF for beginners" section?"
Great, fantastic web site. Thanks for your effort.
73
Larry WA9SVD
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5RJP on April 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
A new ham will "memorize" the rules of operation in order to pass the test. It is the nuances of operation that cannot be learned from a book. I am now convinced that these can only be had by listening. I have developed a habit of spending 95% of my ham quality time listening instead of trying to break into every QSO I hear as is the natural urge. After all, these conversations are private ones using a public medium. I only attempt to enter a QSO if I genuinely have something to add.

I find that I am quickly held in disdain by long-time hams when they learn that I did not have to pass the 13wpm code test to get my General. If anyone else tells me that they had to draw a schematic at the FCC office to get their General 40 years ago I may be sick. I was not consulted when the rules were made and, probably, neither were you. If the FCC says you are a ham, then you are a ham. The first hams built all of their own rigs. Now you just go to the store and plunk down a fist full of dollars and walk out with a radio that it would take a PhD in electronic engineering to build. I hear hams all the time brag in one breath about getting their ticket in 1923, then in the next talk about the virtues of their new Kenwood, Icom or whatever. Something don't add up.

A ham is a ham, is a ham, is a ham. There are only three classes and I have never seen a list of subclasses. As someone said earlier in this thread, this is a hobby. It's not a game of gotcha.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC8WCW on April 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In the not so distant past, I received my first Ham radio license. From an outsiders perspective, I had always had the impression of a group with a reputation for professionalism, courtesy, and self policing, that didn't otherwise exist in other services such as CB. That was the group that I had visualized, and had really looked forward to being involved with.

During my brief exposure to the service however, I have already witnessed enough behavior to the contrary that I've found myself entirely turned off to the hobby. I had decided to delay the purchase of any new equipment until such time as I could obtain some experienced information from those who use it on a regular basis. From what I've read in forums like this however, combined with behavior that I've witnessed through equipment that is owned by some of my acquaintances, I've all but determined that I wouldn't waste a dime of my hard earned cash on any of it. Why would anyone, if a service that traditionally was a notch ahead of the rest is now behaving like the stereotypical CBer's that we've all come to despise? I'm just happy that I made the determination before making any purchases that I would have come to regret at a later date.

KC8WCW
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by K5RJP on April 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It is a shame to see KC8WCW potentially lost to ham radio. At least he has the interest to see what is happening on the ham Internet websites.

I would like to assure him that ham is nothing like CB. I got into CB in the mid 60s when things were done by the book. You paid the FCC for a license and used the call sign they gave you. Things went to hell in a hand basket when they quit assigning calls and effectively stopped policing the 11 meter band. It was all over when the truckers (nothing against truckers in general)started using CB to evade speed traps. About that time CBers discovered that you could work "skip" in violation of the distance rules. Then we figured out that if you boosted power you could "get out" further and better. Everyone added a 100 watt amplifier then some piggybacked a 1000 watter with that. The real problem came to be not the DXers but local transmissions. All of a sudden hookers and dope dealers were hawking their wares. Those with nothing to sell adopted the use of foul language. Locals learned how to do "fox hunts" to find operators that had somehow offended them. The saying was, "We'll go rope his antenna." Meaning they would pull down his base antenna. It goes on and on.

I can assure KC8WCW that nothing on ham radio even approaches CB. The best wat to get the cold shoulder on any ham band is to use terms like good buddy, 10-4, breaker-breaker ("break" is an emergency call on VHF), or to refer to yourself by a cutsey name other than your on real first name.

Would some well-heeled ham with a shack full of unused radios please volunteer to send one to KC8WCS so he/she can get started and truely learn what we are all about?
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WA9SVD on April 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K5RJP:

I guess things may vary by location. Here in Southern CAlifornia, the preferred way to interrupt a conversation on a repeater is to give your call in between the conversations, but some times "break" is used by some. It may or not be recognized by those already using the repeater. "BREAK BREAK" (and NOT "Breaker Breaker") is generally recognized as a call due to an emergency, and will be acknowledged on most repeaters.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N1KGH on April 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I've come to hate 2 meters for the reasons that others have mentioned; in my area, it's very cliquey. I can throw out a call, "N1KGH listening"--this is the "accepted" way to call CQ around here--hear nothing, and then hear two old-timers go at it after you sign off.

I worked a tourist one time after he had been calling for contacts for 15 minutes; during all that time, people came on the repeater, called their own cronies and signed off. I chatted him up. I enjoyed the QSO, and that is *very* rare for me on VHF.

2 meters isn't for new friendships the way HF is, it's for keeping to your own. I only have my HT for SKYWARN and the Boston Marathon, where at least I've not been snubbed for doing my job.

73,

Dave

 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by RADIOWEENIE on May 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Deer KG4TKH--
I do not no bout yew but i am reel glad yu tuk a minuet to tel us reel hams how kind we ar. It is gud 2 B preshitted an i preshit yew tellin me thet. I be a no nuthin test takker masself an we no nuthin test takkers need ta stik tagether. We don needa burn ar lisunzes cuz we dun tuk ar test, pist it, an hav jus as much rat as ennywun else ta tawk on ar radios. Soe don hav the VEC shit pleez. He don givvus ar lisunzes an i preshit it an think yew shud preshit it lak i do. So hares them old threes 2 yew gud buddy, 10-4?
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KA9FLX on June 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I suppose this is an area cultural thing. I call it the Mr. Ed syndrome in that some people simply will not engage in a conversation unless thay have something to say.

In many ways I find this somewhat rude, considering the theoretical nature of the hobby. On the other hand, much FM operations at VHF and UHF are somewhat utilitarian in nature these days. Additionally, many repeater groups (not all) are sadly clickish. A stranger on the machine is like a home invader. It shouldn't be that way, but it is in many places.

I noticed that many responses have degenerated down to the "lowering of standards" issue.

My only comment there, and I am a long term amateur, is that rude and/or poor behavior is not exclusive to the new generation of hams.

Regardless of your feelings about the "new standards" we all should be happy that young people even take interest in amateur radio.

As far as standards, they only go away if you let them. Amateur radio is no different than everyday life. If you would not be rude to somebody in person, why would you do it on the air.

We of the "older generation" should lead by example no matter how frustrating that can be at times. As somebody else wrote, these "newcomers" earned they ticket the same way you did, they did not select the criteria. If you have a beef, take it up with the regulators, not the licensee.

Finally, nothing creates hostility more than having somebody pre-judge you based on circumstances, if you don't like somebody, make sure you at least gave them a chance before saying so.

Say all you want about the hobby and those "other hams", but cleaning up our problems starts with each of us individually. So stop complaining and start communicating. It goes a long way.



 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KD5YDY on July 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This net seems to be where all gather to argue issues they have about the hobby. I'm glad you have a forum here so the ham bands aren't clogged with your haughty arrogance. Why should anyone have to show a license to purchase AR equipment? Most of the operators you're complaining about are likely licensed, not illegals. And many of them were probably never CBers. They were never mentored into ham community and taught common courtesy protocols. The older hams only have themselves to blame for not helping new hams learn the ways of the airwaves.

I remember one XMAS holiday when the changes were being made to licensing structure and dropping code for entry level license. Five OMs spent the next 20+ hours on the 2m repeater arguing, hollering, pouting, throwing tantrums about the changes. They forgot it is a HOBBY, they forgot that common courtesy and protocol on the repeaters is to give others a chance to talk to somebody else.

Now I'm getting back into the hobby because 2m here in Mississippi is very important to SKYWARN, spotting those tornado touchdowns or funnel clouds. When the weather gets nasty here, all 2m activity rotates to protecting the lives and property of those that live here. The 2m crowd offers a great service. Hams report their observations directly to the local weather service. This helps put out Tornado Watch and Warnings out to the public via commerical radio and TV to seek shelter immediately if it's coming your way. The hams still enjoy ragchewing off the 2m repeater when weather is fine. But they are a totally different bunch of hams than the jerks I experienced in other regions of the country. Maybe California and Seattle 2m would get better if the operators there actually did something to serve others instead of just their own enjoyment of the hobby. It shouldn't be hard to find a useful purpose to take the place of some of the bantering. But it also means that the dedicated and polite hams need to migrate back to 2m to help change things. Abandoning the band to the riffraff of the hobby and then filling the webbands with your complaints isn't going to change a thing.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by HAMIL on July 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Gee, I understood when I got my Ham Lisc. that it was SELF POLICING. What is your definition of that and what are you doing about it? I live in Va 48 mi NM of DC and I dont hear the stuff you're talking about and Im disabled and listen an average of 5 hrs a day.Sorry I don't agree with you except if you heard swearing you should've reported it to the FCC. Karl E Hamilton KI4BDS
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by AC6DN on July 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N6AJR, I agree. However, We do have a problem on 2m. (Pse see my related post: http://www.eham.net/articles/5840) I think we should use this opportunity of discussion to have a FAQ page on HAM radio protocol. Or to have it be subject of a club meeting. I too, have lost count of how many new HAMs we have, because of me (~30-60?) - to think were both ex- cbers, Ha.
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WR8D on November 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Re KG4OOA: I agree...but i have and inforce 2 meter protocol on my repeater. Around two years ago the code got dropped down to 5wpm and a bunch of cb types thought they were going to make my machine their next little cb band. Its everywhere now like several of the folks have stated in the thread. They dont want to id...sometimes even use their cb handles instead of their calls..I tried being nice...tried to elmer them...then i had to just tell them to hit the road. I went through a spell there that i actually had some of these fools trying to bootleg and talk on my repeater. They were'nt even hams but had come over to their "goodbuddies" homes and picked up the mic and started talking. They hit the road too. As the level of testing gets lowered sooner or later most of you will get a taste of what the rest of us have been bitching about.

73
John WR8D
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by WR8D on November 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
RE WA7CC...well om you have put it into words exactly as it needed to be said. Very well done indeed...and the nail has been hit exactly on the head.

73
John WR8D "mean ole extra"
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by K0RGR on November 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Assuming that these people were licensed hams, I've heard newbies on the air with less knowledge of how to operate.

Do you want to help? Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HamRadioHelpGroup

This is a gathering place for raw newbies and a cadre of Elmers, who try to explain how things are done.

Those of you who don't like the 'K0XYZ Monitoring' way of announcing that I'm available for a QSO won't like my advice very much. If you don't feel like talking to me, that's fine, too. But that's the way we've always done it.

Welcome to ham radio newbies, and once again let me apologize for the imbeciles on this and other boards who insult you because they erroneously think that they were once forced to take a harder test than you.
If we could remove those who do things that are detrimental to the service, they'd be the first ones to walk the plank.
 
Two-Meter Protocol  
by KC0QEV on April 5, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm a newbie, sorta, I have been on the air for almost 9 months. I have to say if it weren't for the elmers in my community, thanks n0rqx, i might not still be on the air. I have found that even being only a tech class i can do a lot of stuff other then 2m fm, like 2m ssb/cw, 6m ssb/cw, satillites, microwave, eme, and anything else above 50 mc. Yea many of you guys can alway talk to someone 3 states away on 20m but can you or have you done on vhf. i say to the newbies. find an elmer and get a good all mode vhf rig, and a yagi. i started with a ht, upgraded to a kenwood 30 watt mobile and an assortment of mag mounts, verticals, yagis, dipoles, and any other antenna that you can think of and some that no one has ever tried before, my 6 in long 5/8 2m antenna as an example. newbies welcome to ham radio, and enjoy every moment of it. and the the not so newbies don't just complain, so the newbies how and have patience i didn't get it the first time either but i do now. thanks to my elmers and to elmers everywhere that help to make this hobby. I hope that ham radio will live for another hundred years or more. what would me call be if i lived on mars? 73 matt kc0qev
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by N6KEK on May 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Ther is a protocol-
You identify yourself at the onset of a communication, within every 10 minutes of the communication and 10 minute intervals of communication and at the close of your communication.

Obviously what your heard were apparently unlicensed users or apparently idiots that need to revisit Part 97.

Bob
 
RE: Two-Meter Protocol  
by KG4GGC on July 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
If something is hard to achieve then the achievement has more value. Again, new hams, you have no choice, you take the test that is offered by the FCC. But please understand if the old goats wait to see if you demonstrate the character that should be a part of ham radio.


Perhaps we should look to old goats for a demonstration of character? How about we look to the old goats for a demonstration of respect for others by listening on a frequency before just starting tuning up, or starting to yell CQ for five solid minutes without even pausing to see if anyone would like to reply? How about we look to the old goats, say on the hf bands to learn what language is appropriate on the air (no, that won't work, because I don't use that kind of language in a face to face conversation, much less on the air)? Maybe we should follow their example and use 1000 watts all the time, even when talking to the neighbor across town?

Show us, don't tell us. Actions speak much louder than words sometimes.

Having said all that, let me say thank you to two old goats who have taken the time to be my instructors, elmers, or friends (you choose) and patiently explained (off the air most of the time) the error of my ways, and made suggestions on how I could become a better operator. Without their kindness, knowledge, and patience, I would never have known the proper way to do a lot of things in this hobby. Guys, you know who you are if you are reading this, don't give up yet, I have much more to learn.

KG4GGC
 
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