Verticals Work!
Jason Hissong (N8XE)
on
May 2, 2003
View comments about this article!
Introduction
Browsing around eHam.net a few months back, I came across an article by Steve
Katz (WB2WIK) titled 20dB for $48.60. This should be an interesting read. After
reading the article, I thought to myself, "I should try this out." I used to
own a GAP Eagle DX that did not do so well (In hindsight, I think it was a mistake
on my part, which includes a badly done soldering job on the coax connector
by yours truly). I wanted to try a vertical again and I wanted to do it right.
I have an Alpha Delta DXLB+ installed at 35' in an inverted V configuration.
The dipole supports 160, 80, 40, 20, 15, and 10M and the WARC bands with a tuner.
I will also have a roof tower installation here at the house with a Hexbeam.
However, the beam will only cover 10, 12, 15, 17, and 20M. I wanted something
that would work for me on 30, 40, and 80. Plus, as Steve mentions in his article,
a vertical would be a good "go-to" antenna. I am also a casual contester so
I figure that this would be a good second radio antenna, as I want to try this
technique in upcoming contests. So I decided to install a vertical (again) and
I wanted to share my experience with the amateur radio community.
Starting Out
I dropped by the local amateur radio store here in Columbus (Universal Radio)
and picked up the antenna that Steve mentions in his article: a Hustler 6BTV.
I also dropped by a local Lowe's home improvement store and picked up about
2000' of #14 wire, some ring terminals, nuts and bolts to use as the mounting
point at the base of the antenna, and a 4' piece of rigid steel pipe, about
$60.00. Brought the wire home and proceeded to make 68(!) 20' radials. Wrapped
the end of the wire to a desk leg and then unwound the wire to 20' and cut the
wire. Did this 68 times. It helped to have a movie going to pass the time. I
woke up the next morning very sore.
Next, I attached the ring terminals to the ends of the wire. This was my first
mistake. First, I found that after a while of crimping these things on, your
hand starts to get really raw (not to mention muscle fatigue). Second, I failed
to solder them which would have been handy while installing the radials (more
on that later.)
68 20' Radial wires ready for ring terminals
Installing the Radials
In the long-standing ham-radio-antenna-installation tradition, the day of
installation was cold, it just finished raining, and it was muddy. Perfect for
installing an antenna! I get the power edger out and proceed to make some small
trenches in the sod. Since the soil was moist and muddy, the edger clogged very
easily. So after each 20' trench, I would have to clean out the area around
the blade. This got old so I proceeded to the nearest camping supply store and
bought all of their tent stakes. This was about $40.00 for about 80 stakes.
I proceeded to install the radials on the ground by attaching a tent stake in
the middle of the radial and attaching a tent stake at the opposite end of the
radial. As you can see in the photo below, I created a radial ring that consisted
of #12 wire, 2" long 1/4" bolts, and 1/4" nuts. The #12 wire had ring terminals
at the ends and they connected the bolts together in a triangle. The ring terminals
on the ends of the radials would attach to the bolts and the nuts would tighten
down on the radial ring terminals. Here is where I discovered my second mistake
(mentioned earlier): I failed to mow the radial area. The grass was pretty tall.
The radials did not hug the ground as much as I would have liked. I tripped
over the radials many times (using black wires I failed to see them.) Sometimes,
when I tripped over a radial, the wire would pop out of the ring terminal. "Should
have soldered them" I grumbled to myself. If I would have soldered the wire
to the terminals and mowed, placing the radials on the ground and using the
tent stakes would have done fine. I quit at about 31 radials.
Close-up of the homemade radial ring.
As time permitted during the days that followed the initial installation, I
used the edger to make trenches beside the radials that were not buried yet.
I would then place the radials down into the trenches. In the above photo the
black radials on the bottom and left of the photo are placed above the ground.
The white radials on the top and right are buried.
Initial Impressions
After installing the radials, I ran coax from the base of the antenna to my
Ameritron RCS-4 remote antenna switch to do some comparisons. I can say that
most of the time I get about the same signal strengths on stations close in
and on DX with some paths. Stations south and north of me I get better signals
because the dipole nulls are north and south. Now I have coverage in those directions.
One evening, I was listening to W1AW code practices on 20M with the dipole and
it was a very strong signal. I switched over to the vertical and W1AW was in
the noise. I could barely hear it. A couple minutes later, a ZS6 station was
in a QSO on 20M and the signal was definitely stronger on the vertical than
the dipole, about an S unit.
So far, the DX I have worked has been 5C7N, HC8N, UN6P, HC4T on 20M, CY0MM,
YV5OIE, PJ2/W0CG on 30M. This is about the same type of performance on my dipole
at times. So I am getting about equal performance to my dipole at this point.
Nothing to write home about, but nothing to be ashamed of. The antenna is allowing
me to fill in the dipole nulls and get a little better performance on some paths.
Most of the time, the vertical is doing as well as the dipole. A good second
radio antenna thus far.

Picture of the vertical installation with 31 radials.
A Better Radial Ring
I did not like the homemade radial ring, as it did not look like it would
last that long and I wanted something a little more elegant. I asked the question
on the QRP-L email list and got a recommendation to look into Comtek Systems
(http://www.comteksystems.com). They
make a radial ring with 60 holes predrilled into the ring. This includes stainless
steel hardware to attach the radials to the ring. The instructions say that
you can attach 2 radials under each stainless steel screw that will give you
120 radials total. I will probably get there someday, but for now, 60 radials
will be fine for my purposes. At the time of this writing, the ring costs $34.95.
The Comtek Systems RR-1 Radial Ring (picture courtesy Comtek Systems.)
At the first sign of good weather, I proceeded to dismantle the homemade radial
ring assembly. I removed all of the ring terminals from the radials as I was
going to attach the radials directly to the stainless steel hardware without
the ring terminals. Some of the radials did not reach the RR-1. So this meant
that I needed to somehow get the radials to the ring. Either I had to move the
tent stakes already in the ground, which would have been a hassle or stretch
the wires to the ring. The latter worked the best so I stretched the rest of
the radials to the ring. After attaching the radials, I went back in the shack
to compare performance.
I noticed no performance difference between the home made ring and the ring
terminal, which was to be expected. The benefit to the radial ring was the ease
of installation and it was nice and neat.
Adding the rest of the radials
I dedicated a snowy day to install the rest of the radials. It was fun to
be outside watching my dog run around the yard in the snow while I was lying
there installing radials. With gloves, thermal underwear, heavy coat, I was
pretty comfy and warm. I pulled off the rest of the ring and attached each of
the wires to the remaining screws on the radial ring. Pulled the wires tight,
attached the tent stakes, and pounded them into the ground. Took about 3 hours
to finish the job. I had 59 radials now attached to my antenna. Now to see how
it is doing!
Fired up the radio and switched it over to the vertical. It was dark so 20M
was shutting down, 30M through 80M was still alive. Checked some stations on
40M. Some stations were probably and S unit or less below the dipole. I was
only hearing stateside at the time. Other DX stations were sometimes a little
louder than on the dipole. Where I saw a big difference was on 15M. I was hearing
a bigger difference between the dipole and the vertical. There are some "wav"
files of stations on 15M located on my web site at http://www.qsl.net/n8xe/radio/wavs/vertical/
to give you some comparisons. I attempted to have the dipole first and the switch
over to the vertical. As you can see from the files, there is a difference between
the dipole and the vertical. So far, I am very pleased with the vertical and
amazed at some of the differences on the higher bands.
And this makes sense. The radials are 20' long, which are longer than a quarter
wavelength on 10, 15, and 20. On 30, 40, and 80, the radials are under a quarter
wavelength. And the performance is indicating so far that the vertical does
better on the higher bands than the lower ones. I am not disappointed as most
of the time the signals are the same between the vertical and the dipole with
DX signals. However, I just listened (and recorded) an English station on 40M
and the station was doing a little better on the vertical.
Conclusion
I would say that the vertical is a great addition to my antenna farm. In the
process of writing this article, I have since installed my tower with a Hexbeam.
I must say that the Hexbeam performs better than the vertical. However, the
vertical plays better on the lower bands, especially 30M. I recently worked
both T97M and 3B8CF with this vertical. The one thing to keep in mind to have
an effective vertical antenna: you need to install radials, as many as you can
(up to 120 of them). Once you do that, a vertical really can shine! I am glad
I made the vertical plunge!
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Verticals Work!
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by N6AJR on May 2, 2003
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Great article. I have used a 5btv ground mounted for the last couple years and am very happy with the results.
I tried the radials and put out 40 or so at 33 feet and about 20 at 66 feet. My yard and the placement of the antenna made for a lopsided pattern. I have it ground mounted on a 4 foot pipe pounded 2 1/2 fee into the ground with a 6 inch 6 coil coax balun at the antenna.
I ran it with the radials and without the radials and there was virtually no diference so I pulled them up so I can mow the yard. A couple of weeks ago I worked both Kuwait and Kwajalien on the verticle a couple minutes apart, and couldn't even hear either on my rotatable 10 through 40 dipole.
I reccommend it to folks as an easy to use cheap ($159 or$189) and easy to set up and tune. It is not a 3 element stacked monobander, but it does work well..
73 tom N6AJR
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Verticals Work!
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by W8OB on May 2, 2003
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Nice article Jason, My first vertical was installed pretty much as you did yours.For the past 30 years all of my HF antennas for 80/40 meters have been verticals or phased vertical arrays. You can save a ton of work by using a few elevated radials instead of installing buried ones. Check out the Force 12 website about using elevated radials and they even explain how to tune them. A couple of elevated ones will work as well or better than a couple dozen buried ones, that is if you can work them into your backyard area. People who say verticals radiate equally poorly in all directions have never taken the time or effort to properly install a radial system.
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by N3HKN on May 2, 2003
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One of the questions on radials is - should the wire be insulated including sealing the ends of the radials so the only ground contact is at the antenna base. Is this a benefit or an old wive's tale?
Dick N3HKN
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by AA4PB on May 2, 2003
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Verticals get a bad rap because they are generally not installed correctly. The average ham first looks at a vertical as an "easy out" when in fact, a proper vertical installation as you have done is probably more effort than putting up most any other type of antenna. He then connects it to a single 8-foot ground rod, and proclaims that verticals are useless. "Radiates equally poorly in all directions" is a commonly heard description. How would that Yagi work if you cut off one side of all the elements? About as well as a vertical without radials.
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Verticals Work!
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by VA2DV on May 2, 2003
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Nice informative article !
You definitely made a good evaluation of your vertical antenna setup.Radials are almost equally important than the antenna itself for a quarterwave.I have experimented with many models over the years and usually the higher you can get the radial system,the better it works.My situation in a apartment prevents
me from installing wire radials but i do have greats
results using the metal balcony structure.However
my no-radials halfwave vertical seems to work better
than a smaller quarterwave grounded on the balcony.
When you dont expect 3ele beam perfomance with a vertical,you can have rewarding results without breaking the bank.I have found myself working rare DX just because i was able to get on the frequency rapidly
with the help of my autotuner and the vertical (no direction to point at).Vertical are the solution for limited space hams.
Dave VA2DV
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Verticals Work!
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by N8XE on May 2, 2003
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Thanks for the comments guys. I love this vertical. It really does well on 30M.
I wanted to do an elevated radial installation by mounting the vertical on a 12' pole and then have the radials extend to the fence line. However, the XYL said no. I was lucky to be allowed to put the radials down! :)
If I get a place in the country, I will be constructing a 160M vertical. That way, I can place down very long radials to accomplish getting 160M and actually being able to work DX.
Thanks again guys... see you on the air!
73,
Jason
N8XE
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by K5DVW on May 2, 2003
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Good article. I run a vertical. I have both a commercial built one and a home brew all band matched with an auto tuner. They work very well when installed properly and despite the fact I live in a deed restricted community, nobody seems to notice or care I have two. Verticals hide well among trees.
I would like to say that radials are mandatory for proper operation of a vertical, despite advice you hear to the contrary. It doesnt have to take much effort to install the radial system. I just lay the wire on the freshly mowed grass and make these little 4" long "U" pieces out of #10 house wire and use that to stake down the radials every meter or so. The grass will grow around them and push them into the soil in about a month. Never have hit one with a mower. I have 30 radials ranging from 10m to 20m in length.
According to some who have tried non symmetric radial patterns and actually tested the patterns properly, the radiation patern doesnt change if your radial field is lopsided, but it will increase your ground losses slightly.
K5DVW
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by K0BG on May 2, 2003
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Why just 20 feet? When I did my last vertical, I strung the wires one by one from the base of the antenna to whereever my lot ended. Most of them were over 40 feet, several dozen over 60 feet, and the rest from 20 to 30 feet. Rather than the fancy ring you used, I bent a 3/8" chunk of copper tubing in a 12" circle and soldered the wires directly to it. The ground stakes (?) at the ends were common 12" gutter nails sold by the pound at any good hardware store.
Dr. Jerry Sevick, W2FMI, wrote a series of articles for QST about short verticals and the use of radials with respect to length and numbers. His book, "Building and Using Baluns and Ununs" (from the ARRL) has appendexes where the meat of these articles are reprinted. This is a must read for folks contemplating installing radials.
Alan, KØBG
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by KC2JBB on May 2, 2003
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Thank you for this great article. For the last year I have had a commercial vertical, consisting of an Outpacker outreach antenna. It has taps on it so that it can be tuned exactly. More important, it is coupled to an aluminum base with three ground plane radials which provide a great ground. I have had consistently good reports for my audio. The grounds or radials are the key.
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by W3JXP on May 2, 2003
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That radials should be insulated is a wrong old wives tale. It makes no differance. Also 20 foot radials are close to a 1/4 wave on 40M because the earth changes the velocity factor of the wire and makes the wire electricly longer than its physical length. On 80M for a wire very close to the ground a 1/4 wave is about 45 feet long. In real life, radials that are an exact 1/4 wave long do not offer much improvement over the same number of random length radials. The main idea is to reduce the ground loss close in to the base of the antenna were the return currents are the highest. The best rule of thumb I know of for the number of radials required is that the far ends of the radial should be about .15 wave lengths apart. By modeling and testing this seems to hold true. So for shorter radials it means a smaller number will work as well as a larger number, and for longer radials a larger number of radials are needed. The end result is that for radials there is an optium density and going to higer density makes very small impovements. See ON4UN's low band dxing book for very good information on the subject. Its too bad but verticals are not small antennas, to work well they take up more room than a dipole.
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by NO9E on May 2, 2003
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Jason used 2000 feet of wire + extensive labor to get results that are mostly better than the dipole only in directions where the dipole has a null. Would he get mostly equivalent results if he added a dipole perpendicular to the current one?
The vertical seems to make sense when there are no high structures to support a dipole (or two) of for 160m. Otherwise, one wonders how to make a decent antenna with the miniumum of wire and effort.
At home, my first antenna was a 80m flattop at 50-70f fed by ladderline. I tried verticals, vertical dipoles and muliband dipoles. The flattop almost always wins. Exceptions are null directions of the dipole, 160m vertical (not by much), and a 2-el quad. The flattop was the simplest and the cheapest.
Ignacy, NO9E
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Verticals Work! (if installed correctly)
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by K9FE on May 2, 2003
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Verticals can be amazing if set up correctly. This article shows that with a little work and respect to the counterpoise, that verticals can radiate well in all directions. Last year at the Boy Scout JOTA I ran a station in a state park near a river. The ground was quite conductive due to 2 days of rain just before the weekend. We set up the 20 year old Hygain 18 AVT on a 3 foot tripod without the radials first. Talking to the scouts of how the antenna worked and ways to make them work better. We got on 40 and the 2:1 vswr was about 50khz. Signals received were generally in the S-5 noise. After several unanswered CQ JOTA calls I explained what to do next. After working with the Scouts and having them cut just 8- 33’ radials using some #26 awg insulated RED wire and fanning them out radially, we went back to the radio. The noise level had gone to S-7, but the signals were now S-9 and above. The 2:1 bandwidth was now almost 200khz. The first CQ JOTA call was answered by a W1 with girls Scouts. We received an S9+20 report. Sure it could have been timing, but after disconnecting the radials the signals dropped. The Scouts sure learned a lesson.
Try it, you definitely will like it.
73 de K9FE Mike
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RE: Verticals Work! (if installed correctly)
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by WB2WIK on May 2, 2003
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No question that a properly engineered HF vertical antenna system can work extremely well and be more than competitive with wire antennas, especially for low-angle DX.
My experience indicates that an *elevated* HF vertical, like the 6BTV installed at 25-30 feet above ground, using resonant radials, almost always outperforms that same antenna installed on the ground with any quantity of radials. I don't have enough "yard" to install an effective ground radial system, so I installed my 6BTV up about 25' above ground on a roof tower, and used 1/4-wave tuned radials; however, in past home locations I've used the 6BTV ground-mounted with 120 radials, and it wasn't quite as good as just four tuned radials per band in an elevated installation.
Anyone having the choice should opt for the elevated installation, if they can. But if the only choice is the ground, then lots of radials certainly make verticals sing.
WB2WIK/6
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by VE3WMB on May 2, 2003
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Very well written. A great how-to article.
Just to highlight some key points for other readers.
More shorter radials are better than few longer radials .. this is that mistake many make when installing verticals. If you look at the ARRL antenna book there are a few tables that show efficiency as a function of number and length of radials.
There is certainly a cost vs convenience decision that you must make in this type of installation. For instance if you had a temporary portable setup rather than a perminent one you might consider 16 radials at 1/8 wavelength on the lowest frequency as a reasonable tradeoff between performance and ease of installation.
For a fixed ground installation, the more the better.
As the author mentions, elevating the vertical would reduce ground losses and improve efficiency with a minimal number of elevated radials (2 or 4 at 1/8 to 1/4 wave each for the lowest band). For 40M band in an installation over ground with average conductivity elevating the base of the vertical and the radials to somewhere around 7ft would do the trick.
To take a slightly more controversial stance, Moxon in his book "HF Antennas for all locations" (highly recommended by the way) suggests that radials longer than 1/8 wave are not really worth the effort and in fact he suggests that a short elevated tuned counterpoise with some steps taken to eliminate feedline radiation can yield close to 0% loss from the ground system. This is certainly worth consideration when contemplating a home-brew stealth vertical, where space is probably a major consideration.
Keep up the good work and I hope you work lots of DX
with this setup.
Michael VE3WMB
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by NZ5L on May 2, 2003
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The old saw: "A vertical radiates equally well in all directions" can easily be turned around to read: "A vertical radiates equally well in all directions". Therein lies its strength and its weakness. For what you actually spent on your system, I could (and have) bought a used beam antenna and put it up on a guyed TV pole and have enough $ left over for an inverted "L" for the low bands. For Field Day, or temporary installations (or as a first antenna) they will do an adequate job, but most hams past the learner stage eventually get around to a directional antenna. Even if the signal strength was exactly the same, any beam lets you hear more of what you really want to hear, less of what you don't. (P.S. - I must admit not many guys own an 80 Meter beam. My inverted "L" is not very directive, and I consider it as almost a vertical, but with a higher feedpoint Z than commercially available 80 Meter verticals, as it is 5/8 ths wavelength long. And it works better with about 30 (random length) radials than it did with 4 tuned ones.
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by N8XE on May 2, 2003
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Hello,
As far as your used beam/TV pole installation, I am sure that you would definately be able to set that up for cheaper. No argument here. And of course all hams should read up on what they can do with their budgets. I set this system up because I wanted to be able to have an alternate type antenna for the lower bands and experiment. I had the money, the desire, and the space to go ahead and try it out. For my money, I think I learned some great things and worked some cool countries on 30M (my second favorite band). The vertical outperforms loading up my dipole and hexbeam on 30M.
Thanks for commenting. Again, it is great to show the options and let the ham decide what is best for their installation..
And of course, if I could do it all over again, I would want to do an elevated vertical.
73!!
Jason
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Verticals Work!
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by W3DCG on May 2, 2003
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Nice article.
I did one, it was used, some generic trap job sold to me as a 5btv but looks like a hygain.
I did it,
a) out of curiosity
b) my 40 dipole is up 1/4 wave.
c) figured, although I mostly am doing this in hopes of improving my 40m signal out past 1000-1500 miles, it could provide instant band change no tune over my 66' dipole up 33'.
Just be mentally prepared for a few things:
It'll be much more work than simply stringing a dipole between say, two trees. Expect it to be more work than you may have imagined.
On the low bands, expect it to be noisier- even if you are in the country.
I heard this rumor of Verticals being noisier, and I have discovered this truth. In fact, there are signals under the noise that I can hardly copy, which when I switch to the dipole aligned EAST/WEST, I can copy those same signals with only some difficulty. Those signals are generally broadside to the dipole, however.
I did the elevated on a 10' mast on roof installation. My house is small, I needed the height to fit the 40 radials over the area of the roof, and also, to gain an radial pitch angle closer to 45 degrees.
If you chose this route, seriously think about- a tilt up pivot of some kind, the last section of my Vert is bent where it fell into the tree. It takes more force than you may realize, to get the typical BTV or what have you, vertical, if you put it on the end of a 10' mast; I found out the hard way.
This will help to lower it for tuning if need be.
Mine needs it, but as luck would have it, it's flat, under 1.1:1 on 40m which is the main reason I decided to give it a try. I always figured a 66' wire up 33' would be virtually the same on the higher bands anyway.
So why do all this, it sounds like.
Well, I have been getting consistent reports from stations 1000-1500 miles away or farther, that the signal on the Vertical is as much as 2 S-units stronger than the dipole, especially to the west which is off the ends of the wire. From what I could gather, this is what I hoped to achieve.
There are several reasons for going vertical, obviously, one of which, if it's the only option, then I'd have to say,
Gets that low angle radiation, good for DX, and leave it at that!
April's a good time to start a vertical project, I call mine a May pole. Not to be confused with a Maple.
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RE: Verticals Work! (if installed correctly)
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by N8XE on May 2, 2003
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for your article that inspired me to go down this road. It was an educational experience.
Yes, if I could do it again, I would somehow bribe the XYL to let me elevate it. Of course, the neat thing is that I can do that in the future (once she gets used to the 25' antenna in the middle of the back yard!! HIHI!!) as I have the antenna and I still have plenty of left over wire :)
Thanks again!!
Jason Hissong
N8XE
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by KR2Q on May 2, 2003
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Nice writeup and photos. One point should be, "Get out there and play out and have some fun in the sun (or snow)."
By the way, elevated verticals are called ground planes. :-)
Doug's Principle of Antennas:
* Any antenna is better than no antenna (and as Steve has perviously written, even lightbulbs work).
* Bigger antennas work better than smaller antennas
* More antennas are better than less antennas (even if the 2nd antenna is vertical, dipole, slinky, etc).
* Any given antenna will be louder than "the other" antenna at some point in time (hence, more are better)
CU in the HF contest...
de Doug KR2Q (usually qrp)
multiple towers, multiple monobanders, wires, quad (soon to be plural), with a 12AVQ and an AP8 vertical(remember, more is better...or at least more fun).
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by AC0X on May 2, 2003
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WOW! An informative article, a clearly written article, and an article that doesn't try to start an argument! Excellent! Thank you!
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Verticals Work!
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by K8DXX on May 3, 2003
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Hi,
Great article. I have heard a lot of good reports on the 5 and 6 BTV antennas from Hustler; outstanding bang per buck.
I'd like to echo K5DVW's comments about using what I call 'staples' to hold radials down to a closely mowed lawn. Attach them to the antenna base, pull them taught, 'staple' them to the ground every 3 feet or so, put a loop in the end, attach a staple to the loop and pound it in. Two weeks later, you won't know they're there.
Question I have about verticals is why reports on GAP products vary so much. I have used a GAP Voyager for 10 years with very satisfying results. I have installed a few Titans and a Challenger for other guys and they seem to like them. As was mentioned in this article, one assembly mistake can really ruin an installation. I wonder how much of the variation is failure to follow directions, differing ground conditions, differing surroundings, etc.
Thanks again for a good article!
73 de Bill / K8DXX
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by VE4GWN on May 4, 2003
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I also run a Vertical. I have a Butternut HF V6 I picked up used. I have it ground mounted with only 15 radials. I just used scrap wire from 20-40 feet. I went this route for two reasons. 1. To run more radials I would have to dig up my driveway, and 2. Being the only breadwinner in a family of 4 (three of us are hams) money is tight. I plan to run a lead to my frost fence; I have been told that this will help improve 80m. I have had some good DX, but local 80m seems week to me.
73 and Good DX
Glen VE4GWN
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by NO9E on May 4, 2003
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Once I tried a vertical to a tree with a long fence as the ground. It tuned beautifully -- low SWR and high bandwidth -- but the performance was very poor. Some 3S down from my 80m dipole.
Verticals by Force 12 have very good reputation despite low installation and short height. They have short horizontal "radials", at the bottom and on top. I tried to emulate one on 160m, to a tree at 80ft. I fed it at the bottom. SWR was excellent but performance poor. Also adding extra coax changed resonances. I added a massive amount of current balun and the performance went up 2 S. I think that then the feedline was no longer a bad radial, and the center of radiation moved up. I am sure feeding at the center would have reduced the need for balun.
I think that either one has very many radials, or very few but preferably elevated. In the last instance, one should insulate the feedline so that the most power won't be radiated by coax into the ground.
Does anyone have any experience with Force 12 verticals or did anyone try building one?
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by N7KKR on May 4, 2003
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Great points all around gents. One thing I note when using a portable vertical such as an HFp, is you can concentrate gain in one direction by "fanning" the three radials over a 15-20 degree arc in the direction you're interested in. I get 1- 1 1/2 S Unit improvement which makes a huge difference QRP. Obviously having 31 radials helps all around but when you only have or want to use a limited number, you do have a choice of omni or some directional improvement. Many of us use a similar technique all the time and that's the rear bumper mounted mobile antenna and pointing the bulk of the ground (the nose of your car) where you want the strongest signal to go.
Thanks for the great read and informative commentary!
Kevin N7KKR
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by VK5CC on May 4, 2003
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Great article i have used several types of verticals including the trapped and single quarter wave versions and since using Gap antenna's i have been very satisfied. The Challenger and Voyager are superb for efficient low angle DX work and very quiet on receive. The problem with a lot of radials is this also helps couple noise into the Rx. Like K8DXX i have helped install Gap verticals for friends and all except for one have been very happy with them. Thanks for a good article.
Cheers from Chris.
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Verticals Work!
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by W8JJI on May 4, 2003
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I've been very happy with my vertical and impressed and often amazed at how well it works.
It's a 32 foot tall assembly of aluminum tubing, no traps or coils. At 32 feet it is a full size quarterwave on 40 , a halfwave on 20 and a 5/8 wave on 17. I've got 3 quartervave radials for each of these bands.
The whole thing works through a remote mounted antenna coupler that is mounted at the base of the vertical element ( about one inch below it actually ). The radials are connected to the ground lug on the coupler's housing.
All of this is mounted on my roof with a hight of about 18 ft. to the bottom of the vertical element.
I am impressed with how well this set up performs with just 100 watts !!!! and noise has not been an issue for me !
Yes, try a vertical !
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by W3DCG on May 5, 2003
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Checking my memory, I've heard mostly vertical and loop configurations via remote auto couplers- and in every case the signals of the stations employing this method was very impressive. Especially the 40m cw mobil stations. I recall one guy was running a whip on a VW Golf with part of it bent forward over the car, loaded via an SGC coupler.
Definitely on to something there. Definitely a hassle free and highly efficient way to go, where ball park or even not- measurements work as well as precision tuned, as the coupler precisely tunes.
So lets see, could feed it with open wire or ladder line with a tuner at the rig...
or get one of those auto couplers and achieve virtually the same thing, only thing with coax, plus instant band change, minimal loss in the coax since it's all matched regardless of band...
Sounds like nirvana to me!
I wonder, has anyone compared the performance of a Challenger or Voyager, against something like an Alpha Delta DX-CC Inverted Vee configuration?
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Verticals Work!
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by K1MKF on May 5, 2003
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What I always wondered is if you are using a multiband vertical do you put several radials cut to each band or find a length that seems to work best for all?
I also think that if the majority of your cantacts are in one direction you can concentrate your radials in that direction. If you look at one of those QTH center maps you'll see some directions that point at nothing. I think that's where you can skip the radials.
I've been thinking of the HF-2B plus 160m but not sure if the QTH can handle it. The radials are a lot longer than my property.
MarkF
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Verticals Work!
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by K5LXP on May 5, 2003
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A number of responders to this thread have mentioned SWR and/or bandwidth in relation to presence and number of radials. It is a common misnomer that low SWR means you don't need radials. As evidenced by Steve WB2WIK and Jason N8XE's articles here on eHam, nothing is further from the truth. A broad, low SWR bandwidth on a low band vertical is a sure sign of an inefficient radial system. Yes, radials will actually narrow your SWR bandwidth. The narrower it is, the more efficient the system. Also, I read many comparisons between verticals and dipoles, which really isn't a fair comparison. There is a huge difference in signal strengths of opposite polarization. Sometimes my butternut vertical at 15 feet is 2-3 S-units better than my tribander at 60 feet. That doesn't mean the vertical is "better", just that the signal is likely vertically polarized, either as transmitted or "twisted" through propagation. The best way to test the effectiveness of your radial system is the way WB2WIK suggested, by receiving a stable signal and noting the difference when the radial system is connected and disconnected. Even my portable screwdriver antenna setup demonstrates a remarkable difference in signal strength and increased Q when going from 4 to 8 counterpoise wires. There's no one "magic" antenna to have, every ham station would benefit from having both verticals and horizontal wires to choose from to suit ever changing conditions.
For an good read on verticals and radials, see the Bencher website:
http://www.bencher.com/select_multi_band.html
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
k5lxp@arrl.net
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by WA2JJH on May 5, 2003
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Even the so called no radial needed verticles work better with a counterpoise or a few radials.
I have limited roof space. I used 8 guage wire loosely
coiled up to 10 feet. A great improvement in bandwidth resulted.
The coil radials should have a large diameter, and coil spacing. This will reduce unwanted inductance.
Coil radials are not new. Slinky dipoles have been around for a very long time.
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by KG4LLQ on May 5, 2003
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I erected a Force 12 "Flag Pole" antenna in March 2003. Although I'm a new "general class" licensee, I did a lot of reading & studying prior to deciding on the "Flag Pole". The idea of a vertical without traps and with a large diameter (2") radiator appealed to me. Force 12 supplied four 20' ground radials, which I increased to eight. The additional four increased the bandwidth on all operational bands. Presently it will load EXTREMELY well on 20 meters (I often don't use my antenna tuner on 20); fair on 40 & 17 & 15. It's quite tricky on 10 meters and very very tricky on 80 meters with the tuner (which is a 949E MFJ). I've worked DX from Europe, Africa, South America & Australia. I've been able to punch through log jams with my 100 watt IC-718. Over-all I am very, very pleased with the Force 12 "Flag Pole". I do recommend the additional ground radials. Mine are all buried about 2". I followed the instructions regarding the de-coupling coil of coax prior to the line entering the house. I used RG-8 throughout.
Ken
KG4LLQ
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Verticals Work!
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by W8OB on May 5, 2003
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Come on you guys, Of course the vertical is going to be 2-3 s units below the dipole on close contacts due to the low radiation angle. Compare the vertical to the dipole when you are working vk's and zl stations I bet they will not even hear you on the dipole. It also is going to depend on what angle the received signal is arriving at as to which antenna is the better receive one. Some of you guys are saying your getting a very wide bandwidth on say a butternut hf2v on 80 meters if so you need a much better grounding system. I have compared the gap challenger against the
hustler hf6v and other antennas such as a dipole on 40 and 10 meters. The result the gap came in last place especially on long haul contacts and just a bit below the dipole on closer stuff on both bands. IMHO the gap is pretty much a glorified multiband gamma match, but this is just my option and your mileage with this antenna will vary. With my ground system here using a 1/4 vertical on 40 meters my 2-1 VSWR range is from 7.000 to 7.197, when used with a hf2v the 80M bandwidth is 38 khz. If you can't bury a lot of radials then use 2-4 tuned elevated ones coming up at a 45 degree angle from the antenna's feedpoint. The height of the radial is going to vary band to band the lower freqs say 80M the radial is going to be 6-8 feet off the ground from where the 45 deg angle ends. And yes I too have seen the vertical pound out a signal that was several s units higher than the monoband yagi at times. Verticals are a excellant antenna. By all means do check out the force 12 website, they have some drawings of elevated radials and some starting dimensions. Elevated radials are not to be confused with a ground plane type of vertical use.
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Verticals Work!
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by K0EX on May 6, 2003
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Just as a data point...
I took interest in WB2WIK's article on his vertical installation and bought a 5BTV. I installed it on the rooftop (about 20ft above ground) with 4 quarter-wave radials on 10-40m and 2 quarter-wave radials on 80m. I did it so that I could, hopefully, have a better antenna for working DX.
I didn't perform extensive tests, keep accurate records, or tie-up DX stations' time during band-openings in order to quantify exactly the performance of this antenna against my inverted vees at 40ft.
But, intuitive to this casual observer, I noticed that the vertical sometimes was better than the inverted vee at 1500-2000 miles (on 40m, for example). For long-haul DXing (Asia, Pacific, Europe), the vertical rarely outperformed the inverted vee... it was often essentially equal (or, even worse), but I never felt like it really gained me anything toward my objective of having a better DXing antenna for 40/80m. On 80m, in my downtown location, noise usually killed any hope of doing better on the vertical vs the inverted vee.
So, is this vertical a good antenna? Certainly. Is it a almost-guaranteed improvment over an inverted vee or dipole? My results said, "not really". Is the vertical still decorating my rooftop? Nope.
If one doesn't have proper supports to get a wire antenna sufficiently high in the air, then a vertical is a good alternative. As stated by others (and, to borrow a quote), it is also a great "go-to" antenna. But, I didn't get the miracle I hoped would occur (hee hee).
CU on the bands...
-Mark K0EX
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Verticals Work!
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by WA2JJH on May 6, 2003
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True, inverted V's are the best for DX. Second to a Beam. Cut one right for 15 meters,I had one that had a 1:1 VSWR all across the band.
Every time I put up an inverted V', the cable-TV guys always like to snip it.
I guess they feel that my inverted V' will cause TVI.
I would like to catch them in the act. What they are doing is illegal. Wish I was on the air when they ripped it down. The RF burn would be nasty!
They do not touch my vertical however. I guess the high voltage and RF warning sticker is good enough!
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by W3DCG on May 6, 2003
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Wow. News to me, why does an Inverted Vee work better for DX?
I was looking at books and seems like the take-off/elevation angle couldn't possibly be lower in theory; while lots of theory says a Carolina Windom isn't supposed to work as claimed, while many users report results that verify the manufacturers claim, I guess.
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Verticals Work!
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by KY6R on May 7, 2003
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If you want to avoid radials and want a very efficient and effective DX antenna, try one of the Force-12 vertical dipoles. I have the Sigma 40XK - which I use on 40 and 30M (with the 30M coils and an antenna tuner), and a Sigma 5 GT for 20 - 10M. No gain, but you get a low TO angle.
I've recently worked S05, TY5, JY9, S92 and TR8 using the vertical dipoles, and these are all considered "good catches" for the West Coast.
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Verticals Work!
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by KY6R on May 7, 2003
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I forgot to mention how you can build a very inexpensive vertical dipole:
1) Find an old MA5B that has burned out traps
2) Throw the traps in the garbage
3) Take the two elements that have the nice fiberglass center insulators and use one for the dipole and the other to separate the dipole end from the ground
4) Combine enough aluminum from the elements to make a dipole for 20M that is at least 70% of the full sized 1/2 dipole (at least 11.6 feet per side)
5) Use the largest capacitance hat rods from the MA5B and criss - cross them at each end of the vertical dipole to make up the difference between 11.6 feet per side and 16.7 feet per side (5 feet). This is roughly 3 rods for each end of the vertical dipole.
6) Feed the antenna with ladder line to your tuner or place a current balun just at the entryway to your shack and bring a short piece of low loss coax into the shack. You could use a current balun at the antenna and feed with coax.
I built one from my dead MA5B and it works great on 20M - I use it for Field Day. It even looks pretty good.
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Verticals Work!
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by N7NHS on May 7, 2003
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A Real nice write up. I run a MFJ-1792 with 85 33 foot(started with 100 but the lawn mower got out of control) radials and 8 66 foot radials. I used a 16penny nail to hold the radial in the ground. I have been able to notice a GIANT difference over my inverted V not to mention on 75 meter I have been accused of running a amp it was such a difference. I ran tests from the start of no radials I believe next test was with 20 radials then about 48 and then not till I hit 100 radials. I did not notice as much of a difference going from 48 to 100 as I did going from 20 to 48. But there was a difference. This winter I hope to remove all my radials and get a bobcat and dig up the back yard and lay about 80 33 foot radials and about 40 66 footers. Then bring in top soil. This is how I can get the wifes approval, by making the back yard have grass and not well maintained weeds. Tower and beams are in the future but for about $200 this was the best option for me at this time. I am VERY lucky as where I live I can do what ever I want and dont have to listen to the neighbors.
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Verticals Work!
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by N0KHQ on May 7, 2003
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Good going Jason,
If you would really like to learn more about vertical antennas, I would suggest "ON4UN's book called "Low Band Dxing" 3rd edition cost $28.
I constructed a 10m Franklin Vertical 3 half waves in phase ground mounted with an 18 foot dia, grond screen below it. Man, did that thing ever work well.
I am going to mention something here that you probably are not aware of....its called "resonating you antenna radial system".
I do not like to refer to a buried radial system as a ground system, because its not. A buried radial system is a low loss return path for antenna currents back to the source (antenna tuner). These return currents coming back to the source (antenna tuner) are additive to the gain already presented at the antenna.
Lets talk about wire radials close to the ground. A quarter wave lenght of wire above ground is .25 in lenght. A quarter wave lenth of wire laying on the ground or buried just below grass level is about .15 in lenght.
On my TUNED buried radial system for all bands 160m through 10m I use what is called an RF counterpoise tuner, this tuner allows me to resonate the buried radial system on the exact band/frequency in use.
It is not until you install one of these systems that you begin to see the benefits.
If you would care to see the antenna system that I run here at the QTH please visit:
www.Hamuniverse.com....double click on Antennas....then scroll down to the "All Band Sterba Curtain". Construction details of my tunable buried radial system is displayed there.
By the way, I love verticals. I have a Gap Titan DX in the back yard that is going to have some mods made to it to work well on 80m. I'm working on it.
73 to all.
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Anonymous post on May 8, 2003
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There is a free version of Nec 2 called eznec 3 on the eznec site that answers most of the theoretical questions about antennas on this site but it appears no one uses modeling software. Download it and try it.
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Verticals Work!
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by AB8NU on May 8, 2003
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I totally agree with this article's conclusion that ground radials are a necessity for effective vertical antenna performance. I initially fought the idea of using ground radials with vertical antennas, and tried to find work arounds by using "new technology" vertical antennas that don't require them, but in the end I've also learned that the use of ground radials with vertical antennas produce the best results!
Comtek Systems also sells 1000-ft spools of bare solid copper wire for the ground radials. This solid copper wire works great with the Comtek Radial Rings. Comtek recommends a minimum of 30 ground radials per vertical antenna, but suggests using 60 per vertical antenna for best performance.
I've set up two seperate Vertical 4-Square Phased Arrays using Comtek Radial Rings and solid copper wire. I used 60 ground radial wires per vertical antenna and am extremely happy with the performance.
Comtek recommends using hair (bobby) pins to secure each one of the radial wires to the ground. I purchased the hair pins in bulk packages (1/2 lb & 1 lb boxes) from a local beauty/hair supply store for the most cost effective price.
I'd suggest doing a little math in advance to calculate what the equal spacing distance is between the ends of each of the ground radial wires. This will ensure a symmetrical layout of the ground radials when the job is completed, and eliminate a lot of wasted time, hair pins, and energy.
73 Mike AB8NU
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by KU2US on May 9, 2003
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EXCELLENT article. I read all of the responses, and now here is mine (for what its worth). I went out and bought new, one of those all metal 18' "No radials needed" 27mhz. verticals. I use it from 10m to 20m with excellent results. Mine is located 50' up in a tall cottonwood tree. A coax rf choke at the antenna is a must (12 turns at 6"). I ran a ground wire down from its base to a 5' ground rod, then connected about 6 random lengthed radials-buried-to the ground rod. A tuner is used-of course(MFJ-949E). I compared it to a "cut" 20m wire vee on my roof, up about 30'. The vee is a little noiser and over the long haul, DX contacts are better with the vertical with 100 watts. I ran a special event station at my QTH a week ago and made these contacts with the vertical on 20m-Antarctica, Siberia, Greece, several Europeans, Canary Islands, plus many w7's at s-9 from NY w/100 watts. The dipole vs. vertical question will go on & on, its what works better for you. For me, its this little cheap CB vertical antenna. The dipole vee is comming down. Refreshing to see a thread that is informative and enjoyable..Thanks, Ken-KU2US..
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by WB2JIX on May 9, 2003
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Does Anyone have any ideas or experience with regard to using water as a ground plane? I have a pond on my property that's about 1 acre in size. It also provides a lot of wet ground in a gently sloping area. I plan to run about 80 to 100 feet of coax to feed the 5BTV, ground mounted, near to the pond. Many years ago I lived on the shores of beautiful Lake Champlain in northern Vermont and dropped a huge stainless steel plate attached by 4/0 aluminum wire to serve as my ground for a G5RV and had signal reports that most hams would be jealous of. Lucky? I don't know but it worked.
Any ideas on how to use the pond or the moist earth to my advantage with the 5-BTV?
bwduerr@yahoo.com
thanks!
Brian/WB2JIX
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by W3DCG on May 10, 2003
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Yeah! stick a BTV where the sail mast would go on a small sail-skiff/dingy, and sign"
WB2WIK/6MM
;P
(use oars).
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RE: Verticals Work!
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by W3DCG on May 10, 2003
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good-ness! you know what i mean...
i gotta get outta the office.
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Verticals Work!
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by KD3JF on May 11, 2003
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Nice article.... You went to a lot of trouble to get a signal from that vertical! <g> The old adage that "verticals radiates poorly in all directions" is true at times.
I have experimented with a lot of verticals going back to the Gotham Verical which was 23 feet high and a big coil at the base. I have discovered you are really loosing a lot of signal by using a vertical that is fed at the base no matter how many radials you have.
Why did you not start out with the Eagle? This is a vertical dipole and radiates a lot better than a base loaded antenna. You probably did not have the Eagle mounted in a proper situation perhaps. With my Eagle I mounted it a couple of feet above the roof because the house in which I was living had aluminum siding. The Eagle worked so good that I ordered the Challenger and I have it ground mounting at this writing. It works like gangbusters! I also have a G5RV inverted Vee. Both antennas usually are neck to neck signal wise. I live at a church. The bldg is brick vaneer for the most part but still mounted the Gap away from the building. We have an island of trees and flowers and mounted the Challenger there. I have 3 25' radials buried and that is it.
Paul Gates, KD3JF
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by AC6DN on May 12, 2003
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I'm thinking about a vertical. It will be mounted on top of a two story house.
* What kind of radials (res. or none res.)?
* quanity, minimum?
* What if it's a 1/2 wave type antenna?
* Conect to the steal vent pipe or not?
* Screen based counter poise, how much?
I'm mostly interested in 80& 40, and no tvi/rfi...
Thanks
AC6DN
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by KG9Z on May 13, 2003
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The big debate on nunber of radials! I am using a HS-1500 High Sierra Vertical. It it mounted at 10 feet on the side of my moble home. Similar to a RV installation. I use 3 radials cut at 24 feet each. I haven't try more or less, longer or shorter radials. I feel what works for you is best.
I have worked TX4PG on 40M, 30M, 20M, 17M and 15M with this set-up. Running 100 watts or less, on CW. I know this is not a P5 or somthing super rare but still have the pile-ups and was able to change bands remotely.
Cut and try! Have fun! 73 KG9Z Scotty
P.S. The customer service from High Sierra is outstanding!
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by KD2E on May 13, 2003
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I've had several verticals, also going back to the Gotham vertical days. Here is the best thing I can say about them. You can get them to work. But..It's easier to put up a little 3 element tribander on a tripod roof mount. This would not even be a fair comparison to a vertical. The beam is a quantum leap better. OK, the beam won't work on 40 and 80. So, if you have no trees, by all means...plant a vertical. Otherwise, my vote would be a German quad first, and runner up would be a dipole for 40 and another for 80. WAY easier than the mess needed for a vertical!!
By the way... I did the ground radial staple thing with folded pieces of coat hanger. Then I found the actual product... a bag of ground staples...used by landscapers for wiring lights or something. The ring I used was made by Lance Johnson Engineering. I had better luck with the Hustler, and the Hygain verticals then I did a Butternut. I always called it quits around 30 or 40 radialls. Perhaps if I used a whole lot more I would have been more pleased! But at a certain point you start to think what was the reason you were using a vertical in the first place again???
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by N2WN on June 4, 2004
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I've been doing a fair amount of experimenting with wire and aluminum verticals, including some variations (Half Square). The thread here is interesting to read, with many good points, and some unbalanced generalizations. I have seen conditions where my vertical or 40M half square will outperform my 2 Element Quad on 20 thru 10, it's not often, but it has happened (primarily from Tn to the Pacific). My 80M wire vertical and 40M 3/8 wave vertical are surprisingly quiet, unless a storm is nearby. My soil is not the greatest, nor is my location (particularly into Asia) due to geography. I have found it to be worth the effort to lay radials on the ground, not connected to the antenna, and used raised radials that are connected. For my location, a vertical is the best overall performer for receiving and transmitting 160 to 40. I have tried an inverted L, single 80M loop, dipoles and have not been satisfied with them for DX work. You can really get carried away with a vertical installation. It's worth the time to read as much as you can (there's a ton of free info online). Decide what you want type of contacts you wish to make (DX or local) and procede from there to build an inexpensive and effective antenna. Copper plumbing pipe is cheap and easy to work with, as aluminum seems to be hard to find locally many places, or just use old coax or wire. My 80M vertical currently is old RG58. A balun is definitely worth adding. A full 1/4 wave copper tube vertical can be built for $50 or less. Do they work? 165 countries on 40M, 78 on 80M in under 1 year, including hawaii with 2 WATTS on 80M. Want front to back? Phase 'em, fast switching for contests is a bonus.
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