Helping New Hams Get Their Gear:
from
Dick Hayman, K3DML
on
May 27, 2003
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I've had this concept for a very long time and have just started to act on it. After teaching a class (setting up an HF Station was my topic) in our club's general class upgrade course, I was bombarded with questions about where to find good used HF gear at the right price for a beginner.
So here's my concept, I find very basic used transceivers such as TS-130, TS-430, TS-440, IC-735, IC-745, etc, check them out and offer them for sale with a buy back guarantee. There are two guarantees: 90% refund within 30 days and 50% refund within two years. Of course, the new ham may keep the radio for as long as they want and sell it to anyone at any time. But they don't have to worry about getting stuck.
By keeping with these 20-30 year old fully solid state models, I am able to keep the price of a full station with transceiver, power supply, microphone, and wire antenna well under
$500.00. These new hams have no idea that you can spend as much on the accessories as on the transceiver which is just the tip of the iceberg.
Just last week I was able to buy the following on eBay for just $477.00 (and everything works perfectly):
TS-430S with narrow CW Filter and FM Board
PS-430 Power Supply
AT-250 Automatic Antenna Tuner
MC-80 Microphone
D-104 Microphone
Kenwood Phone Patch
SP-430 Speaker
If I resell everything but the TS-430S on eBay again, I wouldn't be surprised if I am able to recoup the entire cost; resulting in a free TS-430S. New hams can't pull this off, but old timers can. But that's not the point of my exchange program.
It's great fun for me and allows new hams to obtain quality gear at reasonable prices. For example, supposed the radio station was sold for $500 and returned back after two years for $250.00. This means that our new ham for just $2.50 per week was on the air having fun. And the equipment gets recycled again for another two years or so.
The radios don't have to be mint in appearance but they must be 90-100% operationally according to the specs.
What do you think? Any suggestions for improvement? How do we get more "elmers" involved? How do we get the word out to new hams?
73,
Dick, K3DML
K3DML@arrl.net
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Helping New Hams Get Their Gear:
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by WA2JJH on May 25, 2003
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I agree 100% with your methods. The 20 year old solid state rigs are the way to go for a new ham.
I have not had the great luck you had on EBAY however.
I have bidded on TS-130's,TS-50's, yeasu's, Eary
ICOMS. I always get beat out by someone that bid $5.00
more then me at the last second. I heard there are ways
to do something called a snatch and grab on EBAY.
The Kenwoods are my personal favorites. I know many NO_code techs that want to upgrade. I tell them that one can get a great rig for under $300.
I missed out on an early ICOM for $200. I have a few promises to keep. With EBAY, its gonna be miles before I sleep. (not my poem).
I once did get a Kenwood TS-850SAT for $300 at a ham fest. It needed only minor repairs.That one I am keeping. It is a little complex for someone new to HF.
Maybe if hams got rigs that they will not fix, there
can be some type of Kidney Bank like program. Donate the rig for a tax write off. Have one central location, like the ARRL.
The rigs that need only minor repairs can be fixed
Then sold on a waiting list like basis.
I actually dealt with one very honest and good Ham radio repair guy.
He repairs on a component level. He will do a $50
repair. a $50 repair from Cliff is equal to a $200
repair from KENWOOD!
All the accesories that I do get on EBAY I sell at my cost. I do not need 6 MFJ tuners, 5 D104's, and 6 straight jj-38 knockoff CW keys.
I guess a plan could be as follows. Buy rigs that are broken cheap. TRIAGE the rigs. The ones that just need a $50-$100 repair will be repaired. The rigs then go on some type of waiting list.
You have a good idea. Problem with some new hams is that the only rigs they can afford are 2 meters. That gets stale quick.
I advise the hams I elmer, is to save money. Then get a cheap DC-Daylight rig. Like the FT-100D or the Icom 706. The early Icom 706's had HF and 2M. I have seen those go one EBAY for top Doller($500)
Why by a used 706, when you can buy a new one for about $750.
I missed out on a 1985 vintage ICOM that was sold as is. I had the high bid at $75. Someone beat me by $10.
The important thing is to get them a HF rig first.
They can buy a used 2M H-T for $50-$75.
Great Idea you have. Hope things gell together
73 MIKE
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RE: Helping New Hams Get Their Gear:
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by K3WVU on May 27, 2003
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It's a great idea, but I find that Ebay prices seem to be on the high end.
As far as the last minute bidding for Ham gear on Ebay, unless you're prepared to be there at the last minute (sometimes seconds)with a bid, you WON'T win the item. If you want the item, wait until the last minute, put in the maximum amount you would pay, and chances are you'll win. If you wait until the last minute and bid the minimum bid amount, such as $1.00 or $5.00, chances are you won't have the maximum bid, and you won't have time to bid again.
"Snatch and Grab" is a perfectly legitimate tactic, and the only way you'll win anything worth buying on Ebay.
Good luck.
Dwight K3WVU
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Helping New Hams Get Their Gear:
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by K3DML on May 27, 2003
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Look for "sniping" software or service for your eBay auctions. This is one way to virtually participate in the last few minutes of the auction.
Real auctions using "overtime" that extends the auctions until there are no more bids are not subject to sniping and thus better emulate on the ground auctions. You have to be there or use proxy bidding.
But why consider auctions as your only source? Hams with good used gear also sell eNet.com or should consider working with newcomers directly.
We need a national clearinghouse or some matching service to put hams together.
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by K3DML on May 27, 2003
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Please provide Cliff's contact info. Thanks
73,
Dick, K3DML
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by N8VQJ on May 27, 2003
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Great idea! I think this would be a good idea. Plus, I don't think it will EVER happen, but I think that Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu or one of the dealers should offer a discount to hams that have recently upgraded. They could even do a mailing based of of ULS output. The discount could apply to those who have just upgraded/gotten their ticket and be valid for one month from the date the upgrade/ticked became valid. I ain't saying 50 percent, but maybe 10-20. Only down side to this is this could run afoul of FCC regs, although I don't see how. New rigs are coming down, but there are lots of radios that are really pricey. Hopefully I can get my IC-703 soon as I really want to work some QRP HF.
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by KD5SCG on May 27, 2003
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I'm pretty sure that Icom offers discounts to new hams. When I was first licensed, they sent me a brochure with coupons.
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by KG4RUL on May 27, 2003
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Ya know, if all the manufacturers gave away their goods at cost, somone would still say that they can't afford it! There is a cost of entry to ANY hobby. Price a set of in-line skates, helmet, knee and shoulder pads. How about a good fly rod and accessories? $1,100 dollars for a bicycle is not outrageous for some. It is all a matter of priorities.
Dennis
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by WA2JJH on May 27, 2003
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Hi, You asked for my ACE repair guy. It would be unfair for me to give him advertising in a EHAM FORUM.
However on EHAM,
they rate repair services. Cliff is the repair service with the 4.9/5 rating, and 6 pages of rave reviews.
You will see my review in there. Had a TS-850SAT with multiple problems. Total cost was $150 with shipping. Other reviews were in awe for how much work was done for $75
TNX MIKE
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by WB2WIK on May 27, 2003
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Great idea!
On a very small scale, I've been doing something similar for many years...but in my case, I keep some old workhorse rigs around to simply loan out to new hams in the area and have restricted the loan program to kids (teenagers or younger) thus far. If every OT ham would just hold on to his older operational gear instead of trading it in or selling it, we'd have thousands of rigs floating around in similar loan programs.
To assure the loaner rigs are actually used and not sitting collecting dust, I also help the newbies install antennas and usually proctor them through their first contact or two. It takes maybe an hour a month, and this is time well spent.
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by KD7EZE on May 27, 2003
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This sounds like a really good idea. I'll support this anyway I can. By the way, put me on the list for a good 2 meter all-mode rig. The new stuff, and things on eBay, are way out of my budget.
'73 de KD7EZE/5
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by HAMESCHEESE on May 27, 2003
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It's a great idea except for the eBay part. eBay is a Ham Radio RIPOFF! Close to the end of the bidding everyone goes into a bidding frenzy. This usually brings the price up to unrealistic levels. The people who say that eBay is great are the ones who are making all the money off of the uninformed ones.
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Helping New Hams Get Their Gear:
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by KB1JPB on May 27, 2003
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Very interesting idea.
I started ham-life as a Tech with Code a couple of months ago, and hope to upgrade to General shortly--and I would have no problem with having access to a good working older HF rig for a more reasonable price than the newer stuff (although I've seen many posts right here on Eham from experienced hams in awe over what great new HF rigs are available for $600-1000 that would've cost them thousands to put together in the old days; so the average unit price on ham equipment certainly seems to have gone down in the last 25 years--which is nice).
In any case, for me--experienced on Ebay, but with little useful knowledge on what constitutes a "good" 20 year old solid state HF rig--what I really would like to see is some kind of regular Eham board or feature that would give noobs like myself a clue as to what older gear is worth having. And that can still keep pace in today's more digital ham universe. For instance, I'm keen to experiment with HF PSK-31; so I'd want an older rig I bought to be able to handle that. Perhaps experienced posters to this thread might see some worth in taking up this idea.
And there can never be enough help on antenna issues. One really clear tutorial on how to use a standard antenna tuner would be worth its weight in imaginary gold to me.
73,
Jason, KB1JPB
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by HAMESCHEESE on May 27, 2003
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It's a great idea except for the eBay part. eBay is a Ham Radio RIPOFF! Close to the end of the bidding everyone goes into a bidding frenzy. This usually brings the price up to unrealistic levels. The people who say that eBay is great are the ones who are making all the money off of the uninformed ones.
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by N4GI on May 27, 2003
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Since when does everyone need to own their own rig? That's what local clubs are for. Call up a local contester in your area and ask if they need an extra op for the next M/M.
Giving back to the hobby by participating/elmering in a local club is probably more worth while than trolling Ebay for hand out rigs.
Remember, if one finds themself down on their luck, there are plenty of less expensive hobbies than ham radio.
73,
Blake N4GI
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by N6AJR on May 27, 2003
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I buy and sell on Ebay, and find I enjoy it as much as I do using the equipment. To be successufl in your bids you do have to put in some effort and try to be on line at the close of an auction. I decide what my max bid is and just "watch " the items until they get to the last couple minutes then I wait till there is 25 seconds left and make my max bid. Sometimes I get it sometimes I don't. that is what makes it fun. I enjoy the "chase".( I call it sharpshooting )
As far as equipment for new hams goes, I will usually give a new ham that I have gotten started in ham radio a 2 meter ht, a mag mount antenna and a 30 watt amp. This sets them up either mobile or fixed and lets them try it. I have sold a FT-101 EE with speaker and remote vfo for $200 to a new ham and have given another a FT-101ZD. I have sent equipment overseas to help out hams and donated radios, parts and books to a couple of local kids starting a ham club at school.
You can buy a R.S. Htx 202 for $50 or so on ebay with a good battery and a duck. For most older hams this is just pocket change and not a bunch of $ like it is to a youngster. If you can he;lp then please do, if not then teach. An Elmer is worth 3 rigs..
73 tom N6AJR
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by K3DML on May 27, 2003
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The comments are great. I have to agree that too many people get caught up in the bidding frenzy and overpay for rigs. I did it myself a couple of times.
My point of the article is that buying from someone you don't know can be dangerous and expensive.
Actually buying from a local club member is probably the best way to get a rig that works and is a plus if he/she is willing to help set it up and operate it. Club member's stations and club stations are great ways to get on the air as well.
There are so many facets to this hobby that picking just one is hard.
Starter HF rigs are plentiful and affordable. Finding a good one at the right price is a bit more difficult.
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by N3IJW on May 27, 2003
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My elmer and I picked up my first HF rig at a hamfest. $50 got me a DX-60B, HG-10B, and HR-10B (this was in '84, well into the "modern" transceiver era but being 11 at the time money was hard to come by). While you can still get swindled, at least at a hamfest you can touch the gear before you fork over cash. Shake test and all that. If you're clever enough, a little luggage cart with a car battery, inverter, some cables, and a dry dummy load can save you some smoke checks when you get the gear home. Heck, maybe you can tackle one of the old fat guys on the Rascal scooters and use its battery to fire up interesting rigs.
I buy a ton of stuff on ebay, mostly computer and network infrastructure stuff. Haven't really been burned yet - been a little disappointed from time to time but the smoking deals far outweigh the questionable ones. I bought a TS-850 off Ebay a couple months ago and am pretty happy with the deal. Caveat emptor, your mileage may vary, etc.
But new hams don't really need TS-850s right off the bat, there are tons of older rigs (tempo one, ts-520) out there looking for a home. The club advice is good too, networking with other local hams opens up a lot of buy/trade possibilities.
Anyway, good thread, nice to see it hasn't degenerated into an argument yet :)
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by KC9AAE on May 28, 2003
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Very good article! I wish that I had a elmer around here to go to... but I'll be talking to some of the guys and gals when I attend the local ham club meeting, so things should be good.
As far as the Ebay bidding goes... if you're *really* interested in something, keep track of the closing time and open up one window in you're browser to keep track and do a refresh in the closing minutes, (often!) and then have another window in you're browser open with you're bid info filled out and ready to send. The refresh allows you to keep track of the bid(s) during the closing minute, and the other window allows you to adjust you're bid prior to submitting it! A cable or dsl connection definately helps here vs dialup access.
Another tip is checking prices! I've seen used icom 706MKIIG's going on ebay for $700+... hummm, just buy a new one then for $739 or less! Commen sense prevails.
Regards,
Dana
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by KL7IPV on May 28, 2003
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I used to do that on a smaller scale. I lent a radio to a new ham once they passed a test after I gave a class. The new ham got to use it for 6 months which gave them time to see what was available and get an idea of what they were interested in. I never had a radio ruined and the new ham was always appreciative of the opportunity to get on the air before sinking money in a new rig. Since high schools don't seem to have clubs like they did when I was in high school, it filled the gap well. Good article. Hope it catches on.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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by WA2JJH on May 28, 2003
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For those upgrading and what to know what to look for, and how much it should go for. EHAM had an artical called "Best rigs for the money" The artical went down the price scale of used rigs.
$1000 range
700-800 range ect.
There were plenty of 20-25 year old solid state rigs in the $200-$300 range. My personel Bias is for the Kenwoods.
Of course If you see a great tube/transistor hybrid like the TS-520 series,FT-101series, or a Drake TR-3,4,4CW between $200-$300 you will not go wrong. Just
make sure you can get a 12BY7A driver tube, and/or
power output tubes(6JS6, 6146's, or what ever the mostly solid state rig you are buying used.) These tubes are easy to find now. However in a few years who knows. Except for the Drakes, all the HYBRIDES had built in 110Volt power supplies.
The artical also gave a summery of what features each rig had or did not. Their defects and their strengths.
The older solid state rigs in general lacked general
coverage RX, and the WARC bands. However they were solid performers.
So for the OM that is upgrading, you might want to check out that artical. If anything, the prices are even lower. The artical is over a year old.
Also ICOM has a New Vintage solid state rig, with power suppy for about $550.
If you have the money, you will not go wrong with either a NEW FT-100D or ICOM 706mIIG. Every single ham band and just about every mode up to 440mhz.They are general coverage RX as well. Both radio's will work as semi-decent Police and fire scanners too.
To complete your station, One can get excellent deals
on a 25 AMP power supply, manual antenna tuner/SWR meter. I have found EBAY great for the extras, not radio's. I will get my hands on the sniper software!
I got a closeout on the FT-100D. $730, this included a 500HZ filter, TCXO, full DSP(audio type) and shipping.
Happy hunting on your upgraded station.
73 MIKE
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by N9DG on May 28, 2003
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Great idea. A variation of it is to have loaners on hand. Let the newcomer use for as long as they want to and are actually using it. But if they stop using it for whatever reason they must give it back to you or give it to another newcomer who then in turn must either give it back to you again or on to yet another new ham.
As for eBay bidding, it's really quite simple, in a word "research". Learn what it was (or is) worth new, also what they are now typically going for used on other trading sites or hamfests. Read the seller's comments carefully, if they are sketchy and/or describe flaws, subtract value accordingly, ... or don't even bid. You must however decide well ahead of time how bad you really want it and what the max is that you will pay for it. Since eBay is proxy bidding, make that your bid, and never enter a second bid, even if you are beat out on it immediately after bidding, because you have already predetermined the max you'll go, ... stick to it. You may actually get it for much less than your max, but you'll never get stuck with paying more than you originally intended to.
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by KA7BTV on May 31, 2003
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Good idea although I wouldn't describe a TS-430s as "Very Basic". The TS-120s, Alda 103/105, Ten-Tec Scout, etc. are "Very Basic". The TS-430s and higher are still very respected and widely used. Also, are these new hams ever encouraged to build anything? Is there a basic understanding of what goes on behind that mic or key? I'm not suggesting they try to build anything as complex as a transceiver, but mabye an accessory would be nice. Anyway, keep up the good work.
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by WA2JJH on May 31, 2003
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KA7BTV makes an excellent point. Perhaps a requirement
to get on the list, would be for the new ham to build a simple kit. The PIXIE QRP CW rig kit is a working
CW transceiver. Picked up two kits on EBAY for $12.00
each. This kit included a 3.58 mhz color burst xtal.
I am going to build one, and modify the heck out of it. The other I gave away free.
It has 300mw output TX, and a direct conversion receiver. It has 2 2n2222 transistors and the pop icon
LM-386 audio amplifier. I will put in 2n3866's for 1 watt out. There are also a ton of mods on the internet
to make the pixie RX work much better.
An incentive might be which ever new ham has the best
working Pixie QRpp rig, will have "FIRST DIBBS" on a TS-130 or what is around.
I know this is all premature. There is no system established yet.
A tough former Bronx NYC A.D.A. had this pithy quote.....
Idea's are like straws. If you throw up a hundred staws
and you catch four of them you are a head of the game.
However the judge will say your grasping for straws counsler!
73 MIKE
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by KC8LGL on May 31, 2003
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F.W.I.W. ...tried to help out 2 new Hams when they started out and I reall got screwed, would never do that again. Never met a cheaper bunch of people that the minority of this hobby. Live and learn I guess.
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by AG4RC on May 31, 2003
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Great article!
I'm a bargain hunter - I'm sure there are other terms you could call me, as long as it's not "late for dinner"
HI HI
Supporting a wife & four children and me being the only source of income - Our primary financial focus is not my HAM radio hobby.
That said my current station consist of the following equipment:
Kenwood TS-130SE -- $260.00 (cash) -- From local HAM operator.
Turner +3 Microphone -- $??.?? -- From my old CB radio days. . .
35 Amp Power Supply -- $00.00 -- Donation . . .
Zig-Zag Dipole (125 feet total) -- $30.00 (cash) - Homebrew
450 Ohm Feed Line -- $15.00 (cash) -- AES (Orlando)
MFJ 941E Tuner -- $72.00 (money order) -- Ebay
Autek QF1-A Audio Filter -- $40.00 (money order) - Ebay
Compaq Laptop -- $0.00 -- "Junk Pile Special"
Audio Interface (RigBlaster) -- $10.00 (cash) -- Homebrew (Mostly junk parts)
Total Station Cost $427.00
My current equipment allows me to effectively operate (SSB, CW, PSK31, RTTY, SSTV, etc) on bands 80 meter through 10 meter.
-=Begin Off-Topic Stuff=-
If I may interject previous comment concerning buying HAM radio equipment on Ebay - "It's a great idea, but I find that Ebay prices seem to be on the high end".
The main problem with most Ebay bids jumping to unreasonable prices is there are too many Whiny, I-Want-It-Now, Pathetic-Pay-Pal-Purchasers using credit cards to buy so called "bargains" with next-day delivery charges only to brag the their fake looser friends "Hey look what I bought yesterday on Ebay!"
These blind folded burdens to our society blissfully go about stumbling thought their pathetic existence never realizing with their High School diploma, BS/Masters degree, or Ph.D. how ridiculously uneducated they are when it comes to "basic" economics.
Yes credit card purchases are generally the safest way to purchase on-line because if the deal goes sour because you have the power of the financial institution to refund your $$$. However, in most cases, these Lame, Potential-Pankruptcy-Candidate, Ebay Heroes in the long run, when/if they ever pay off their $40,000.00 credit card dept(s) will end up actually paying 3+ times more what the original Ebay charge was 20+ years ago!
In addition to myself supporting a family of six we don't have any credit card dept at all what so ever!
Because of those Self-Absorbed Sniffling Snot-Nose Credit-Card-Mongers it took me 3 months to win a reasonable auction for my MFJ Tuner (It was suppose to be a Christmas present - In March?).
My best advice to fellow new/old HAM operators bidding on Ebay is hang in there, and be patient!
-=End Off-Topic Stuff=-
Enough Said - 73 to everyone!
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by K3DML on June 4, 2003
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Building is a lost art on most newbies. I've had success starting with them building wire antennas. They're cheap and easy to do. Plus everyone needs one. I stress construction of the full wave loop with a quarter-wave matching section. They are good performers and will fit into restricted spaces.
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by N0TONE on July 15, 2003
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While I agree with those who bemoan the absence of homebrewers, the most important thing with newbies is to GET THEM ON THE AIR ON HF. If they like it and are enthused, THEN you can try to kindle the homebrewer flame inside them. They won't have ANY interest in homebrewing if their first on-air experiences are unpleasant.
A beginner's rig must be simple - as simple as possible to use. For that reason I strongly discourage ANY radio that requires the user to drive through a menu structure, like the IC-706 or FT-100D. Not good ideas.
$500 is a LOT for someone to spend when they're really just checking out a hobby. If you expect them to afford that much, you better consider keeping a "library" of radio to loan out.
In my area, we've done the "library" and we've kept in-stock older rigs for zero-profit sale to beginners. All fully checked out in a NIST-traceable lab (we are fortunate to be very close to a Hewlett-Packard calibration facility which has some licensed hams as technicians, and the company allows them to use their extensive laboratory to do the work for us for free) and are sold for rock-bottom prices, or just lent out for free.
BUT we differ from you a bit.
A newbie is not likely to have a great antenna, so the rig must be capable of operating into an imperfect SWR. That's a problem. Your choices are:
1) A tube rig that can handle VSWR
2) An early solid state rig that can not handle VSWR, plus an outboard tuner.
3) A recent-enough solid state rig that has a built-in auto-tuner.
Choice 2 is the worst. It's not much less cost than choice 3, and is the most clumsy and least user-friendly. Choice 3 is expensive, and the earlier rigs with built-in autotuners didn't auto-tune very well.
Choice #1 has a LOT going for it. A TS-520S or FT-101 can be had, 90% functioning for $200, even on eBay. Cheaper at a hamfest. And it has a built-in power supply, so the newcomer has one less expense. Usually they come with the hand microphone. We ALWAYS supply a key, and if the newcomer requests, a keyer and paddle. Face it, with minimal antennas, QSOs are a whole lot easier to make on CW than on SSB, particularly with marginal antennas. When we supply a rig, we refuse to limit the newcomer to phone only. Every single newcomer who has made QSOs on CW in our program has gone on to be a vivacious homebrewer and half of them become contesters, too. We have not had such a good rate with SSB ops. But HF SSB has yielded better results than VHF FM. So far, every ham that we started on VHF FM who did NOT go on to "better" things, has let his license lapse at the 10 year point. None of the "started on HF" crowd let the license laps, although a few of the phone-only ops have gone inactive.
The TS-520/FT-101 combination have 3 total controls for tuning - actually FEWER than a solid state rig with external tuner (with external tuner, you have 3 tuner controls plus the sensitivity control on the SWR meter). With a TS-520/FT-101, you don't even need an SWR meter for tuning. We don't complicate things with the PA dip, etc. We give them instructions that have them tune the rig for a low level of RF out, then twist the tune, load and "drive" controls (drive=preselector on these rigs) until they get maximum output. Then crank up the power knob, try to get a little more with the LOAD control and re-peak the TUNE if needed. Only after they've gotten used to that will we actually show them the "official" tune-up instructions. Yes, we have had to replace a few PA tubes early on, but the simpler tuneup instructions kept them from being squeamish about using the rigs.
If they can afford it, yes a TS-440 with auto-tuner is better, but it won't tune that many antennas. Avoid a TS-130 and manual tuner if possible because the op will get frustrated trying to muck with the manual tuner and external SWR meter.
Remember, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE. 2nd most important is low cost.
AM
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