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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...

Peter (VK3KCG) on August 1, 2003
View comments about this article!

The other week I came across a group of stations on 80 Meters using USB, 2 days later I found 2 stations on 7.110 USB

I broke into these conversations and asked if they knew they were going against the grain by using USB?

On both occasions I was told that they could use LSB or USB at their discretion as there is no hard and fast requirement to use one or the other.

I was wondering if this becoming common practice, as it will make it a lot harder to find rare DX as it could be on USB or LSB.

So should we stick to the "Gentlemans agreement" to use LSB on 7 MHz and below or does it just not matter?

If the majority of Amateurs think it is bad practice then maybe it should be "nipped off" before it becomes common practice.

Then again maybe nobody cares less, I myself see this as a potential growing problem unless one obtains a Double Sideband Receiver... (Hi Hi)

Maybe I am making a Mountain out of a Molehill, maybe not?

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WAZZUP on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
there were either LIDS or using older mil surplus gear and have not bothered to modify for LSB.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KL7IPV on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The other answer is, they were using USB as a way to have their conversation more private since the USB would be garbage unless someone changed their sideband to listen to them. They ARE right though, they can use either sideband on any band since it is just a "gentleman's agreement" as to what sideband we use. And then again, they may just be LIDS.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W5HTW on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Ya know, I betcha they KNEW they were on the opposite sideband before you broke in, and really didn't need someone to "break in and tell them about how they are going against the grain." In fact, that appears to be the case - they DID know. I'm sure they thanked you for your assistance, though, so no harm done.

If you would, research the reasons behind the band format, as to why LSB on 160, 80 and 40, and USB on 20 and up. You'll find it wasn't so much an agreement as it was the conversion scheme in early sideband transmitters. In fact, many sideband rigs of the 60s and even into the 70s did not include the opposite sideband (I had a Swan 350 that did not, though a conversion kit could be added. Others, like National and Galaxy, had the same limitation. ) But nearly all sideband rigs today have selectable sideband capability, "because we can." Also the US domestic 5 MHZ channels go "against the grain."

One of the reasons people operate reverse sideband is to get closer to the band edges. Another is to avoid interference. It really isn't "private" as most of us can figure out how to switch sidebands and tune 'em in, (you did, in fact) but maybe some don't know that so they think they 'are' being private. Wouldn't surprise me, actually. Probably the majority of hams today can figure out which sideband a DX station is on, though, I grant you, there may be a few who cannot.

However, if we are going to keep the tradition of LSB on the lower bands, and USB on the higher, let's keep some other traditions, too! Whoops ... wrong forum - better not go there!

Anyway, they were absolutely legal and not at all unethical. You are right - opposite sideband use is becoming more prevalent. And one of the reasons is the technical basis for the original standard no longer exists.

73

Ed
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M3SKF on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Chaos on the bands,well no this is not chasos.Often i do the same such thing on 12m i use FM to speak with my daughter & the XYL.Occasionally Other hams have questioned this practice even as far as to say they would report me to the RA.To date i have never be told that this is illegal or bad practice by the RA,so come on guys relax take it easy no big deal just play-in radio.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M0AFJ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It is quite right to say that the LSB/USB protocol is not mandatory but remember what interference may be being caused in other parts of the world by thoughtless actions. I would have also thought that the place for `cb' type chat on fm was not the 12M band but 2 or 70cms which are underused.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WB8JKR on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
With all the other stupid crap that goes on in the
ham bands now a days I would say yes, this is making a
mountain out of a mole hill.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KA8SEP on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
M3SKF,

I'm not sure about England but in the US we are not allowed to run FM under 29MHz due to banddwidth restrictions. I would like to know what the rules are in the land of our great friends.

Ted KA8SEP
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M0AFJ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
There are no restrictions in the UK for FM operation although I have never heard anyone using FM below 28MHz, if you want to look over our licence conditions, they are published on the web
www.radio.gov.uk/publication/ra_info/br68/br68.htm

It may be that we will see this more often with the relaxation of the licencing structure, we will have to wait and see. I hope not because up until now the new M3 licences seem to have been a credit to their teachers and elmers.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M0AFJ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KC8PMM on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The only reason for this guideline is so we don't have to worry about switching between upper and lower sideband within a band. Everyone knows when looking for a contact, calling CQ, etc to use the correct sideband. Confusion would ensue if there wasn't a guideline. If USB was actually made illegal on low bands, then AM will probably become illegal, too.

I'm not sure why the switch to LSB at 40 meters, unless we just want to exercise both upper and lower sides. If there's no good reason for it, I wonder why not use USB only and switch if you think you have a good reason.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KD7EFQ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It's just another example of the selfish, self- centered Hooray for me, Boo for you attitudes that are
pervading society as a whole these days. We are in the Caligula and Nero phase of the eventual collapse of our once great society. No one seems to care about anyone but themselves these days. We are headed the way of the Roman Empire. I guess I'll fiddle with my VFO while Washington and New York Burns.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by SM0AOM on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W5HTW:
You are perfectly right, the amateur use of LSB below 10 MHz is a remnant from the earliest days of SSB.
Once upon a time, there was a CCIR recommendation about being able to shift ISB channels around the suppressed carrier at 10 MHz, due to the mixing schemes of the 1950's exciters.
Advances in exciter design soon made this recommendation obsolete, but for some reason this practice has lived on in the amateur radio world.

Personally, I would very much like to see the universal use of USB on the amateur radio bands,like almost all other SSB users (aeronautical, maritime,land mobile and fixed).

As a side-effect, the use of USB would do away with the somewhat strange (at least for a professional...)
convention used in amateur RTTY to feed a LSB exciter with erect AFSK tones to create inverted-shift J2B signals. Using USB, the J2B signals would be created in the proper, CCIR Rec. 246 compliant, way.

KA8SEP & M0AFJ:

It appears that radio and telecom deregulation in Europe has done away with explicit bandwidth restrictions on amateur radio emissions, as long as -20 dB spectrum mask limits at the band edges are observed.

After a look at the Swedish Post & Telecoms Authority website, I take it that our authorities could have no legal objections to i.a. 300KF3E emissions (ca. 120 kHz deviation FM phone) on 80m using a center frequency of 3650 kHz, as long as the average power at 3500 and 3800 kHz does not exceed -20 dB relative to the unmodulated carrier power.

However, the practical usefulness of this can be seriously debated... :-)

73/
Karl-Arne SM0AOM
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by ABC123 on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Chaos ? No . I can't see anything wrong with using usb, am, or lsb on any hf voice frequency as long as the frequency is not in use by other operators . It's not illegal or inconsiderate.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M0AFJ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It comes down in the end to consideration to other band users, a bit lacking these days.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K4IQT on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The gentlemen's agreement was put in place not to decrease potential QRM or to finish the regulatory bodies' jobs, but simply to make SSB operation more "user-friendly" by suggesting that everyone use a mode readable by everyone else for contesting, traffic nets, etc.

It's only good manners, and as the number of hams on SSB has increased so have the number of hams with bad manners - it only takes a few to stand out like a sore thumb. But, as I've learned as the parent of four teenagers over the years, "you've got to pick your battles carefully" or run the risk of becoming one of the annoyances yourself. So, whether it's a mountain or a molehill it's just another bump to avoid in the landscape.

 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by CASPER669 on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Peter;

As many here have already stated, it is not illegal. Although it does not follow the 'Gentlemen's Band-Plan", it is not really harming anything or anyone. It does show a possible problem with them following general guidelines, but since these are merely guidelines and I don't know their side of the story, it really would be impossible to clearly and factually state if intentional malicious behavior was a key element.

As far as FM on the HF frequencies, according to the band-plan, there is no current allocation specified for FM use, other than between 29.6 and 29.7 MHz. I do not know if this means it is forbidden by law, or if this was part of the Gentlemen's Agreement.

If these individuals were as polite with you as you were with them, I don't think they did it out of malice.

I hope this helps... Good luck, God bless and 73!

Chris KC2KFW
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W8JI on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Who cares whether someone is on USB or LSB? It generally makes no difference at all.

We do have to be very careful with claims USB or LSB to extend band usage or get closer to band edge. It is technically INCORRECT to claim flipping sidebands allows us to get closer to a band edge.

The frequency we have to pay attention to use is the occupied bandwidth, NOT the dial reading alone. The letter of the law is we are not allowed to have any emissions related to modulation products outside the area of the band licensed for such emissions(not that they enforce it much).

If you think about that a while, or draw it on paper, changing sidebands does not allow any extra space. It also may get you in trouble because sideband suppression is not perfect, so hugging the band edge might put harmful IM or imperfectly suppressed modulation products outside the authorized band.
Any level of such is illegal, as long as it causes a problem or can be heard.

FM is another thing to pay attention to. Even if legal, it is inconsiderate near other users. Especially if it is groundwave on crowded bands that are good for long distance propagation. FM takes up more space than SSB, and belongs off by itself. FM is a great deal like enhanced SSB or AM, it just wastes space.

As for privacy, that's silly. Nearly every receiver has a swicth for modes. FM is now almost always included, as is reverse sideband.

Pay attention to how wide it is and where you put it, not what it is.

73 Tom
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA2MZT on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Once the mode is all digital voice then all of this will go away. Digital voice is so superior and immune to interference. Think about it! Most broadcast radio is going to be IBOC (In Band On Channel)and TV stations by 2006 must change over to all digital mode.So what is the big deal? Accepting change is the key here and some hams are already experimenting with digital voice as a mode. PSK -31 and Digital voice, modes of the future.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W8SGZ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Great!
Now that the "code/no code" situation should be settling down because of the WRC action, I was wondering what was going to replace it in the hearts and minds of hams everywhere.
Now I know - let's start a USB/LSB war!
(I am NOT serious!!!!)

These are probably also the same group who are upset about the "messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof" prohibition and are using the opposite sideband technique to sort of pretend to accomplish the same purpose. (To which I say, "big deal" since all you have to do is flip a switch.)

And, yes, this probably is an example of molehill-mountain conversion. The last thing we need is another 200 post thread on a trivial matter.

Just my 3 cents (inflation, you know).

Jeff
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K0BG on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm with Tom, W8JI. We'd best be harping on bandwidth rather than the "type" of modulation. Far too many amateurs use more than their fair share by using "WiFi" techniques, too much compression, and wide open mic gains.

Alan, KBG
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by N0SP on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I think your concern is over-blown. I'm on HF a great deal and run across opposite SSB operators only occasionally. I would hardly call it "chaos".
The amateur population, just like the general population of this country, is made up of a great variety of people. Some of them think "out of the box" a little bit... so what? Thats what gives this hobby and life itself a little flavor. A USB signal on 40 meters takes up no more space than a LSB signal. So whats the worry? Frankly, I get a little tired of the "band police" roaming around whining and writing letters about anyone who doesn't fit THEIR idea about how every ham should operate. There is a lot of space on the bands so move up or down a bit if you don't like what you hear.
If someone is breaking the law or has a problem with their transmitted signal, then by all means let them know. Otherwise, you have the right to chose who you associate with to maximize your experience with this hobby. Find and enjoy people that you have common interests with. No one is going to force you to switch sidebands, use HiFi-SSB, or do anything else the whiners have been complaining about lately.
It's pretty easy to hear something, pass judgement, then start spewing... I'm only saying these things to hopefully encourage people to think about it before they speak. We're a fabulously diverse bunch. Lets keep it that way. The comments are not directed at you specifically, but instead to all of those who would have us regulated in to oblivion.
Best Regards,
Dennis
NSP
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KG5JJ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Chaos? What chaos? Doomsday prophets notwithstanding, what is the REAL problem here?

I'm reminded of a line from a song: "It's the end of the world as we know it, it's the end of the world as we know it, it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine!"

73 KG5JJ (Charles)
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by G3RZP on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Actually finding that CCIR Recommendation about USB above 10MHz and LSB below is a bit hard - I've never actually found it, or met anyone who has! There is a complication these days in that the main other users of HF SSB (maritime and aviation) use USB everywhere. That means that in shared bands, such as 80m in ITU Region 1, using USB means that it can be a bit easier to avoid mutual interference - except that the maritime people NEVER listen to check if a frequency is clear of amateur traffic before opening up! Naturally, it doesn't help that they always use different frequencies for tx and rx......

I don't see why using the 'wrong' sideband should cause chaos though - you just need to be able to flip the switch. Maybe needs a bit of operating skill......

At one time, NBFM had a small following on the HF bands - it doesn't get into telephones and audio systems. I wasn't aware that the FCC didn't allow it tehse days.

73

Peter G3RZP
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by SM0AOM on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
G3RZP:
Peter,
If you or anybody else have access to old enough
"Green books" I would be very interested
if the CCIR Recommendation 249 (Los Angeles 1959)
could be looked up. It is this recommendation that
contained the ISB channel position matter, and ISB with only one channel is indeed SSB...

All other explanations about mixing 9 MHz USB
with 5 MHz VFO's and creating a sideband inversion
on 80 m falls into the 'urban legend' category,
you get backwards tuning, but no sideband inversion.

Another matter is 5 MHz SSB and 9 MHz VFO.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA9SVD on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Agreed, the use of specific (lower or upper) sideband is a convention rather than a specific regulation, but it MAY fall under the principle of "Good Operating Practice."

A station operating LSB on 20M, for instance 14.270, will cause interference to a station operating on 14.265 USB. Who's right? What's good operating practice?
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by N2KMF on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
No thank you as far as digitally modulated voice goes. The problem with that (on HF, and in simplex VHF/UHF communications) is that it gives you absolutely no warning of losing the signal. It is either all there, 100%, or you hear nothing. This is a problem with digital cell phones also. I don't know how many times I have been talking to someone using a digital phone when they simply cut out in mid syllable. With analog, you can hear the static increase, or the signal get weaker, or both. This is a clue for even the most dense person that the signal is going to drop. You aren't stuck there like an idiot going "hello, hello, HELLO". Those of you in urban areas may never know the difference between an analog and a digital cellphone except that the digital is clearer (which it is). Try using it in the hinterlands, where you aren't within a mile of the closest cell tower. Then you will know why I personally won't use digital on HF. It isn't robust enough for the conditions found on HF.

As for using USB on 40 meters, well heck, it ain't illegal, and they weren't hurtin' nobody, so who cares? I wouldn't do it personally, but I ain't them and they ain't me.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by VE2DC on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I think it is better we all use the same convention... either USB or LSB... The idea of adopting a universal USB standard has merit... but let's all agree to do it as of a specific date... USB and LSB simultaneously on the same band is not a particularly good idea.

BTW, The old 9MHz conversion schemes did result in LSB below 9MHz and USB above using a single filter and BFO crystal. It's not an urban legend.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W4VR on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This is nothing new. I've been hearing guys on USB on 40 meters for decades. Some hams have old military equipment that do not have LSB capability. Most of the hams I've heard on 40 are pretty good about making sure they pick a frequency that does not interfere with a LSB QSO. However, unless there is a good reason to operate on the opposite sideband it's probably good policy to stick to the recommended sideband for a given band; it makes it easier for an inexperienced ham to find a clear channel and avoid stepping on a qso on the opposite sideband. Note: the 60 meter band is USB only so hams are compatible with, and don't interfere with, existing government services there.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA0ZZG on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Actually the agreement on LSB/USB goes back to the early days of SSB and the use of war surplus transmitters on the amateur bands. There was one
command transmitter that was easily converted over
to SSB operation on the 80M and 20M bands. The modified transmitter operated LSB on 80M, USB on 20M,
because of the mixing scheme. The practice just stuck.
Commercial operators always stay on one mode because its one less control for an inexperienced operator to figure out. If you would like more detail, I can
check with my neighbor. He worked for Art Collins before retiring.
Dave...
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WB9GKZ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What about those dang-blasted AM'ers.....why theys'a
totin' both sod-bands on thier carrier!

Makes me wanna light a candle on top of the 1000MP and
wind a coil on toilepaper tube just thinkin' bout it!

WB9GKZ Pat
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by SM0AOM on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
'Urban legends' propagate because people do not
care to check out facts throughly.

A quick calculation;

Let the IF be 9 MHz and let's call the upper sideband
'delta', the IF spectrum is then 9 + delta MHz.

If the VFO is 5 MHz and the IF is added will
the output be 9 MHz + delta + 5 MHz = 14 MHz + delta, i.e. USB on 20 meters

If we instead subtract the VFO from the IF
will the output be 9 MHz + delta - 5 MHz = 4 MHz + delta, still USB but on 75 meters.

However, if we use 5 MHz IF and 9 MHz VFO, as
some of the European and Australian SSB pioneers did,
or translate an existing LSB 80m exciter up to 20 meters (as in the KW Viceroy) we end up with LSB on 80 meters and USB on 20 meters.

73/

Karl-Arne
SM0AOM
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K2GW on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>>Actually the agreement on LSB/USB goes back to the early days of SSB and the use of war surplus ransmitters on the amateur bands. There was one command transmitter that was easily converted over
to SSB operation on the 80M and 20M bands. The modified transmitter operated LSB on 80M, USB on 20M,
because of the mixing scheme. The practice just stuck.

Thanks, I always wondered why 80M and 40M were the only places in the entire HF spectrum that LSB is regularly used. Virtually all military, aeronautical, utility and marine HF SSB is USB, as are the amatur bands above 10 MHz.

I find it a lot easier to tune into an USB signal by moving up in frequency, and since tuning up is more natural than tuning down (as is necessary for LSB) that probably explains why other folks chose USB.

Perhaps it is finally time to pick a date when all Amatuer operations on these two bands switches to USB and get us into the 21st century.

73

Gary, K2GW
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KE4ZHN on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The only time usb becomes a problem is when you get some yo-yo who fires up 1-2 kc below your qso and proceeds to splatter you. I have had this happen to me once in awhile on 75 mtrs. with the group I hang around with. We sometimes get these spanish guys who fire up 2 kc below us and run ridiculous audio and splatter like some CB clown running a class C amp and a powermike fullblast. I have yet to hear any of these idiots identify with a callsign, and I have no idea where they are or even if they are in the states. Sure, I could write to Riley H, but if these clowns arent in the US, then theres not much that can be done. No big deal, I have a vfo, and I also have an on/off button on my rig. I dont begrudge anyone for using usb IF the band is clear above them so they dont interfere with ongoing qso`s, but some folks dont seem to understand that usb interferes with lsb ABOVE your center freq. Since the FCC will no doubt be dropping the CW requirement, then it looks like we all may be forced to operate both sidebands on the bands with the influx of new operators thats going to come. This is just a theory, but if we get bombed with thousands of new hams, they have to operate somewhere and our present bands wont support all of us on one sideband. Time will tell. But I see no reason to panic over this, there are far worse things to worry about then whos on lsb or whos on usb.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WD4AOG on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I suppose the biggest problem with a gentlemen's agreement is that only gentlemen will act agreeably. The rest will suit themselves.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by M3SKF on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
M0 AFJ
Hmm..CB TYPE CHAT..do you know me?Have we spoken?
Please do not presume that talking with my XLY & 10 yrs old daughter is like talking with or to a cb operator.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by LU1YNE on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here in Argentina the only USB operators in 80 meters are Japanese ships stealing our fish. The only users of USB on 40 are truckers. And the only users of LSB in 10 meters are lost Brazilian and Chilean CBers.
I wouldnt call it a chaos... its just we are losing traditions nowadays.
Everyone here, I think, know in which sideband find a serious DXer.
It is true that some people would think that if they use the opposite sideband their chat will be much private. And maybe theyre just right, cause at least me, if im just looking if theres anything in the band, I wont stop to hear them. I would just say "F*** IT/THEM" and go on.
But again, thats just me.

And this was like 30 U$S cents, I live in Argentina. Besides, I dont have Broadband.

ED - LU1YNE
PATAGONIA ARGENTINA
http://www.qsl.net/lu1yne
lu1yne@yahoo.com.ar
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KA1EZE on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This is a stretch, but operating on one side or the other to avoid an am broadcast or other sig may be a good use. Doing that for cw listening is common...

About that comment about digital being immune to interference, wouldn't that be nice, i take it the comment was tounge in cheek.. I really wonder if the fcc will ever allow it, the bandwidth still would be pretty wide wouldn't it?

rick
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W1KI on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
There is no prohibition against FM on the lower HF frequencies. See FCC Part 97.307 (f)1 and 2. The requirement is that the modulation index cannot be greater than 1. As a practical matter, most if not virtually all of today's modern transcievers will have a modulation index greater than 1. FCC rules do permit greater indicies (deviation) above 29.00 MHz.

So for this reason, US Amateurs do not use FM below 29.00 MHZ
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WB8UHZ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yes we should follow the age old agreement of using
usb on freq. 14 mhz and up and lsb on freq 7mhz and below. This is just good operating practice and will result in far less interference to adjacent qso's.
tim
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W0RW on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
i have a newer military radio that only receives and transmits on USB, It can't be modified.
Can we just have one USB Freq on 40 meters so i can use it ?
Now i can operate on 5MHz USB, which is really great !!!
73 Paul w0rw now on 5371.5 KHz
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by VK3KCG on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Well guys, there have been some interesting responses to this rather mundane subject, there has been a good level of input from across the board.

The "chaos on the bands" header was a lame excuse to exercise a secret ambition of being a newspaper editor.(hi hi)

The overall consensus looks to me like "if it aint broke then don't fix it".

Leave things as they are, use the Gentlemen's agreement as only a lose sort of guide but use whatever your most happy with, be it USB,LSB or AM.

This discussion was only brought up as an educational attempt as I myself have heard stations on the (I use the word loosely) on the opposite sideband having abuse hurled at them from the self appointed band police..

Great input from a great bunch of guys.

Peter
VK3KCG
 
Amateurs Should Standardise USB  
by KQ6XA on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I am in support of amateurs adopting the international USB standard for all bands. Every other service uses USB only. Let's move into the 21st century!
Since the new 5MHz channels are all USB, this is a good time to start making the switch on 40m and 80m. By the way, operators have been using USB to help alleviate the broadcast QRM on 40m for many many years.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KG4OOA on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
LET THE CHAOS BEGIN!

We have had agrements for years and now comes the lids wanting to change more! If they think they are getting a little more privacy, the joke is on them. I don't think it is. They new what they are doing, the same as all the rest of the rotten operating begining to prevade the bands.

It is not making mountains out of mole hills. We have allowed the attack of the LIDS. This is just the begining. There will be many more of these mole hills in the near future.

Remember that when CBers die they go to seventy-five.

Thank you for the screwing, ARRL!
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KG4OOA on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KC6MMI on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands... Reply
by WB9GKZ on August 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What about those dang-blasted AM'ers.....why theys'a
totin' both sod-bands on thier carrier!

Makes me wanna light a candle on top of the 1000MP and
wind a coil on toilepaper tube just thinkin' bout it!

WB9GKZ Pat

LMAOROTF! what you said! LOL... oh man! ouch! LOL.
I need'd that.
THANK YOU.
Rich
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KC4AUF on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This is normal on CB and sense the standards have increasingly been lowered sense 1992 many other CB practices have filtered into our ranks. When! not If the ARRL and the FCC buckle under to the demands of CB'ers here in the US and elemenate Morse code requirements you can expect all of the other CB practices to be adopted and used on the ham bands.
Now is a good time to switch to being an SWL'er, they listen and accomplish something, CB'ers just talk.
 
RE: Amateurs Should Standardise USB  
by W8JI on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I don't know where or why the idea changing sidebands reduces QRM comes from. When the occupied BW overlaps, you have QRM. If it overlaps, it overlaps.

All flipping sidebands does is eliminate use of that complicated technical adjustment called the "VFO" when we want to change the frequency of our occupied BW.

Of course it is an additional skill we have to learn, adjusting an analog dial. Maybe we need channelized operation? We could space the channels 4kHz and use USB only, or we could space them 8kHz and use either sideband at user choice. That would be 19 channels with emission kept within 40kHz with USB or USB only, or we could improve it to 19 channels by using the other method of USB or LSB.

If we left it USB-only we could eliminate a knob on the radio, and that second complicated adjustment of USB/LSB.

Sheesh. What a big worry this is. At least it takes some of the pressure off people who are angry because they know CW.

73 Tom
 
RE: Amateurs Should Standardise USB  
by K1MKF on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not sure if opposite sideband use will cause a major problem but perhaps those that are "going against the grain" can standardize on a particular freq or range to make it easier to find one another, like the AM'ers do.

For those working contests or hunting DX it just adds another step in trying to tune in a station. If it's due to the equipment used it's understandable. If it's to be different or private it really isn't helpful.

As for FM below 29 MHz. I can't wait for that day when 12m is wide open to Europe and I can enjoy some good old fashioned SSB ragchewing except somebody is chewing up a huge portion of the small 12m band with a "local" FM QSO. I'll probably just turn off the rig, shake my head and go check my email.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K8NQC on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have no trouble with amateurs using any of the options available to them to communicate as they wish. I have often found the best spots for 40 meter SSB to work best with USB. The successful tests thus far with 60 meters tells me that channelizing phone operation on HF, possibly using both USB and LSB, may be worth investigating. For years, our one group on 80 meters used USB because two members were voiceless and transmitted with CW. Their Drake equipment was only compatible with USB on that band.

An operator should always use the conventional sideband when making general calls such as CQ or operating open ended nets. However, that does not mean that there are not times when the opposite sideband is the best choice.

One additional comment, I have heard the "frequecy policemen" up and down 75 meters demand a 5 kHz or 6 kHz window for their operation. If we space QSO's accordingly, we better be using both sidebands or we are wasting a lot of spectrum.

An afterthought!!??!? Why not have polite hams use one convention and put the snarlers and drunks on the other sideband? That way we would not have to listen to each other.

73, Bill
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by AA4PB on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I think using both USB and LSB on the same band does increase the odds of the two signals overlapping and causing QRM. If for example, the lower frequency station is using USB and the higher frequency station is using LSB then they must have a 6KHz seperation to avoid interferring. If they are both using USB or both using LSB then a 3KHz separation will avoid interferrence.

Note: these are rounded off numbers for the purpose of illustration. I realize that the filters in your rig are probably somewhat less than 3KHz.

While its not illegal, using the "non-standard" sideband is not very considerate unless there is a very specific reason for doing it like avoiding QRM from a broadcast station on 40M, etc.
 
choice of sideband  
by KZ1X on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Deviations from standard operating practice in shared spectrum are OK when they are technically merited. Otherwise, they are just inconsiderate.

There is a rut in the left-most lane of the local Interstate, and this rut rund for several miles. While you CAN drive in that lane, it yields a rough ride because of the rut.

An alternative is to simply straddle the lane-divider line, with my left-tire-track in the left lane, and my right-tire-track in the middle lane. Sure solves the rough-road problem. I get a nice, smooth ride, free of bumps and, not coincidentally, bothersome traffic on either side of me.

Same deal, boys.

By going against convention in a shared-space, I have "solved" my problem. To hell with convention, and also the traffic behind me.

Illegal on the highways; selfish and inconsiderate on the ham bands.




 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KF9VH on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Instead of worrying about this worry about the lids that fire up 1 or 2 kc's next to a qso. This happens all the time. And how about those that think they own a freq?

I suspect they moved to usb because someone moved right on top of their qso.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KT1F on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In many ways USB is more logical and easier to understand. I tend to think of it as simply the audio frequency gets shifted up by a constant amount to get the RF. The receiver just shifts it down again. Sideband and carrier suppression are really just side issues of the implementation. I see no good reason these days to have an inversion in the path but nor do I see a reason for strict rules about it.

My first 80M SSB rig back in ZL land was a homebrew project called a 'Tucker Tin'. I managed to get it working on 20M too and the sideband change happened naturally because of its (I think) 5.5 MHz IF and 9 MHz VFO. As others have pointed out, it doesn't happen if those are reversed.

Cheers
Ross
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W8JI on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<I think using both USB and LSB on the same band does increase the odds of the two signals overlapping and causing QRM. If for example, the lower frequency station is using USB and the higher frequency station is using LSB then they must have a 6KHz seperation to avoid interferring. If they are both using USB or both using LSB then a 3KHz separation will avoid interferrence.>>

....still all comes down to occupied bandwidth. You get just as many 3kHz slices out of a given bandwidth with everyone using the same sideband as you do with occasional or even alternating channels reversed.

Seems odd at first, but it's true. A lot of fussing over nothing!

I think CW vs no code and "old hams ain't friendly to me" arguments are much more impotant. Or is it important?
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
Anonymous post on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If anyone should criticize hams for being petty, bossy, "get in your face" stupid behavior, for inconsequential issues, the author of this dribble should be accused.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KA4KOE on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The name of one of the Immortal Bard's plays comes to mind....


"MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING"


PAN
KA4KOE
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KE2IV on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KD7EFQ writes:
"It's just another example of the selfish, self- centered Hooray for me, Boo for you attitudes that are
pervading society as a whole these days. We are in the Caligula and Nero phase of the eventual collapse of our once great society. No one seems to care about anyone but themselves these days. We are headed the way of the Roman Empire. I guess I'll fiddle with my VFO while Washington and New York Burns."

Now THIS is making a mountain out of a molehill. OM, I think YOUR cure is worse than the disease! Do you have a postage stamp mustache too?

Oh, and BTW, I was at GZ that morning, where were you?

 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K1OU on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to bitch about, are we not?
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KA3RFE on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
We need a new mode here...let's call it AR for Anal Retentive and lets put it in the last few kh of each band. Then people with nothing better to complain about can sit there and bitch and whine about what other operators are doing or not doing on the bands.
73, Pete
 
USB on 7MHz Very Useful  
by KQ6XA on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
USB can help to alleviate QRM from AM shortwave broadcast stations. Amateur QSO operation on USB about 200Hz~500Hz or more above the AM broadcast carrier or LSB about 200Hz~500Hz or more below the AM broadcast carrier results in less average interference and better speech reception than simply using LSB alone.

This technique has been utilized by many amateurs over the past 40 years on 40metres between 7100 and 7300kHz. It makes better use of the available spectrum space between the broadcast stations, which are normally spaced every 5kHz or 10kHz.

If LSB and USB take up the same passband, why is there any difference?

The answer is complex but here's the basis for it:

1. The nature of human speech and the audio frequencies that are important for intelligibility. High pitched frequencies are most crucial to speech reception... but they also have the least average power.

2. There is more average power in the lower frequencies of an AM shortwave station's sidebands.

If you have never tried this before, you might want to experiment some evening on 40 meters with a friend, and you will instantly be convinced of the effectiveness. It is much easier to demonstrate this on the air than to explain the nuances of how it works.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KB1GMX on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
RE:SM0AOM

If the IF is 9000.0khz and the carrier osc is 8998.5khz
(USB at IF), then please explan how you get the wrong sideband with a VFO of 5mhz. For 75m that's subtraction (LSB for this case), for 20m ( it's addition (USB for this case) and the sideband generated will be the current standard.

I've done this enough in real hardware to know on VLF through UHF.

The urban legend was that ALL SSB xmitters used 9mhz. the actual commonly used IFs were all over the map not including those using phasing hardware.

The convention was adopted to simplify which sideband capability a radio (TX or RX) would be needed for each band to make design (especially back when) acheivable
at lower cost. It persists to this day. A simple filter xceiver for any band is cheaper if you only need one carrier osc crystal (or complete oscilator).
It was worse for those designs that use one carrier osc and TWO filters one for each sideband.

The commercial boys did it so they cold standardize their equipment to favor the user convenience and simplicity.

Technically LSB near the upper band edge gets you closer and USB near the bottom edge will do same. The real problem is when two users are say 4khz apart the the higher freq user is using LSB and the lower freq user is running USB as their modulation products (assume 2.8khz BW) will overlap by 1.6khz with some very tough to deal with buckshot on both sides. Yet
if the two reverse sidebands they could be nearly back to back on frequency and communicate with minimal if any interference.

Allison
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by W9JCM on August 2, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I would say I 99 percent of the time follow the so called agreement. But now that I really think about it, there is nothing wrong with using either sideband. And its not a bad idea because of the garbage on the bands these days it might be the only clear spot to qso so I say what ever works as long as its clear use it. This whole band plan is the workings of the Arrl. You don't have to follow it. All I can say is again if the need calls for it and you wont interfere with any other station then go for it. Thats why we have usb/lsb buttons on our rigs my as well use them. They wont give us any more band space. Oh you say what about the new 60 meters HAHA right you call that band space.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WB8UHZ on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I've been reading the comments and some of you
are really missing the point. Those who see no
problem with USB on a band where LSB is the norm are
typical of the "me first" problems in our society as
a whole today. If someone uses USB when LSB is common
pratice they may very well drop right into the passband
of those in a qso using LSB , this is the reason for
the use of one sideband on each band, to REDUCE
interference to adjacent frequencies and to utilize the band to the greatest level of potential use. That is ,its an interference problem, thats WHY we agree to operate LSB on some bands and USB on others. For those who think USB
is better on 40 in terms of getting through with the
shortwave broadcasts , use your vfo,the same effect will occur.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by SM0AOM on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Sigh...

There appears to be a lot of confusion about reference
or carrier frequencies on one hand, and assigned frequencies on the other.

The assigned frequency is defined in the ITU Radio Regulations as "The centre of the frequency band
assigned to a station". For regulated SSB users this means simply the center of the SSB passband, which usually is either 1.4 kHz above the reference frequency for USB or 1.4 kHz below the reference frequency for LSB.

The reference frequency is in turn defined as:

"A frequency having a fixed and specified
position with respect to the assigned frequency.
The displacement of this frequency with respect to the assigned frequnecy has the same absolute value and sign that the displacement of the characteristic frequency has with respect to the centre of the frequency band occupied by the emission"

Radio regulatory people could not care less about any
carrier or reference frequencies when enforcing the band limits. If your emission at the -20dB points, be it LSB or USB, is outside the band edges you are in fact within someone else's assigned frequency band, so to say that you can get "closer" to a band edge by using LSB or USB is simply wrong from the regulatory point of view.

The frequency readout on probably all current amateur gear does however show the reference frequency, so if all SSB transmitters were 'perfect' in terms of IMD and sideband suppression, it would be OK to be on an indicated upper band limit using LSB, or on a lower band limit using USB. As there are no such transmitters, it is prudent to observe some guard band space to the band limits.

As for the question of sideband inversion, I have to stress that subtraction mixing does not automatically
result in sideband inversion. Only when the baseband (or IF) is subtracted from the mixing frequency this will happen. I'm sure that confusing sideband inversion
with 'backwards tuning' is part of the misunderstanding.

However, from my teaching experience I take it that if
part of an audience fails to follow a line of thought, a demonstration using 'real hardware' is appropriate.

A test setup, consisting of an HF-SSB exciter with selectable sidebands, a mixer and a signal generator
is connected to a professional grade HF-SSB receiver.

The exciter is set on 9 MHz USB, the signal generator
to 5.5 MHz CW and the receiver to 3.5 MHz LSB.
Speaking in the 'mike', nothing intelligible is heard, but when changing to USB normal voice comes through.
When interchanging the frequencies of the signal generator and the exciter the opposite happens,
just as predicted.

Non-believers can repeat this for themselves, and if you get different results, please let me know.

73/
Karl-Arne
SM0AOM





 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KC8PMM on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
"Once the mode is all digital voice then all of this will go away. Digital voice is so superior and immune to interference. Think about it! Most broadcast radio is going to be IBOC (In Band On Channel)and TV stations by 2006 must change over to all digital mode.So what is the big deal? Accepting change is the key here and some hams are already experimenting with digital voice as a mode. PSK -31 and Digital voice, modes of the future. "

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, GO GET A "DIGITAL ONLY" PHONE AND SEE HOW LONG IT IS BEFORE YOU FEEL LIKE SMASHING IT ON THE SIDEWALK!
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KG4OOA on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Quote:
Think about it! Most broadcast radio is going to be IBOC (In Band On Channel)and TV stations by 2006 must change over to all digital mode.

That is pure bull. The only reason for the 2006 line in the sand is to sell TVs. If they really want to find out if what you are saying is true, do the opposite. Leave the consumer with the choice and see how well it sells.

Of course there will be some, like most of the readers here, who buy an item because it is "new technology" or "digital". If it is new it has to be good.

It is almost like adds I've seen for speakers. They are better but you can only tell the difference with a scope.

This ought to be a new thread but what would be wrong using the European TV system's standards. They had high resolution TV before I lived in Europe in the seventies. Answer; it's not new technology, it already exists; we can't make you pay as much for it.

That argument don't hold water if you think about it. New for the sake of new or only profit is not advancing anything but the PE (Price Earnings) ratio.
 
RE:TV Change from Analog to Digital............  
by WA4MJF on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I thought the switch to all digital
would be dictated by a percentage
(specified in the TA of 1996)of digital
TVs in use. When the number of Digital
TVs in use was x% (whatever the law sez)
of the TVs in use, the switch would be made.

I've heard years discussed by Jim Goodman
of Capitol Broadcastin', an early entry in
the Digital TV areana, but the seem to slip, whenever
I hear him talk about it. Last public comment I heard from him was in the Senate oversight hearin's on Little Mikie's media rules which Congress is about
to throw out. I think he was talkin' of 2010
or so then.

73 de Ronnie
 
RE:TV Change from Analog to Digital............  
by KG4OOA on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Where are they getting this information? Do we really have to believe the manufacturing industry's data?

I still believe this whole digital TV thing is a shove it down the consumer's throat tactic. It leaves no choice in the market place because when digital TV comes into being as proposed the old system will be scraped.

Well, I have my answer to the problem. When TV goes totally digital, my TV set will be used for parts in a homebrew project. In my estimation commercial television is mind polution. It is only fit for the retards who allow commercial TV to rule their lives and can't entertain themselves.
 
RE:TV Change from Analog to Digital............  
by WA4MJF on August 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Probably from statistical samples. The Census
Bureau does stuff like this for the government in
between the 10 year Censuses.

73 de Ronnie
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by G3RZP on August 4, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
SM0AOM has at least identified the CCIR document, and no, I don't have nay access to it. I think the USB/LSB 'thing' had happened before 1959, though.

WA2MZT is being a bit premature about digital speech replacing analogue, I think. You can just get enough info over with a 5 or 6dB SNR on SSB to make a DXCC QSO, but I don't know of a digital speech modulation that will allow you to get anything over at that SNR in an SSB bandwidth. Maybe WA2MZT has some figures on acceptable input BERs and data rates for CODECS to give a 6dB SINAD analogue output?

73

Peter G3RZP
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by G6HVY on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As far as I can tell, from this discussion and otherwise, there are no technical reasons for preferring one sideband over another - with the exception of cosying up to one side or the other of an AM station.

Amateurs are the only (licensed) people using LSB any more, and then only on Top Band, 80 and 40. This is due to aspects of very old equipment. The main argument for carrying on like this is 'because we've always done it and to switch would cause chaos', and against is 'no other user does it and we may need to communicate with them on shared bands'.

Adopting USB on the low bands would mean slightly simpler homebrew equipment and more usable surplus kit, both of which would help beginners. It would mean one fewer thing to remember and get wrong. It might help in emergency communications under certain circumstances. It would give the bandplan police one less reason to do their thing.

Keeping LSB would mean maintaining the status quo, which many amateurs love like apple pie and beer, and that's no bad thing in itself. A changeover would be messy: does anyone know how many amateurs have LSB-only sets?

However, one has to wonder whether the status quo is maintainable or desirable: times change, even on 80.

One of the most important problems facing us all as amateurs is self-regulation: there are plenty of well-funded and motivated concerns casting envious eyes on our precious Hz. It frightens me that in issues such as no-code, we come across like a bunch of petulant old fogies prepared to dig our heels in on matters that make medieval theologians look like pragmatic realists. That puts people off, big time.

It would do us and the hobby a world of good were we able to calmly discuss stuff like low band LSB, reach a decision -- in this case, I think the factors for switching to USB outweigh the arguments against -- and come up with a cogent plan for effecting the change worldwide. There's no pressing need to fix what is currently a tiny and easily lived-with problem, but I do think USB use below 20 will increase over time come what may. If the change were made, that would be that.

It's not down to the government administrations to manage our bands for us: if they get dragged in to micromanage us, they WILL see us as an expensive distraction and it will hurt the hobby in the long run. If we can show that we can respond to changing circumstances in a positive, effective and timely way then we'll be left to our own devices -- I think we all want that.

Rupert, G6HVY

(Oh, for those who were saying 'all BC radio's going to be IBOC', that may or may not be true in the US, but the rest of the world uses DAB with a good chance of DRM on HF and, eventually, on MF. And digital phones have been standard in Europe for five years at least: I've never felt the need to smash mine on the sidewalk, at least until the roaming bills come in!)
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by SM0AOM on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hear, Hear!
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA4MJF on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Rupert,

The U S Army still uses LSB.

73 de Ronnie
AAR4LG
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by N2CKH on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This practice can lead to not only interference but harmful interference.

As this is NOT what has for so many decades been the decato standard practice within the Amateur Radio Service it will likely draw the attention of the FCC as not meeting:

97.101 General standards.
(a) In all respects not specifically covered by FCC Rules each amateur station must be operated in accordance with good engineering and good amateur practice.

and possibly when a QSO starts up with overlap to an existing QSO within the same frequency space:

97.101 General standards.
(d) No amateur operator shall willfully or maliciously interfere with or cause interference to any radio communication or signal.

Sincerly,

/s/ Steve, N2CKH
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KB0GU on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This is not a mountain out of a molehill issue. As previous posts offer varied opinions, here is a solid opinion. Use the Gentleman's agreement until it is changed. Consistent utlilization of operating mode is considerate hamming and provides predictable results nationally and internationally. I really don't care to debate if it is legal or not. Shake hands and come out co-operating like the gentlemen and women we are.
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by AC7KZ on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
They must be old cbers. Have you listened to those who talk sideband on cb. They use either USB or LSB. Depending on their mood.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KD5QFK on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
so on 6 meters what should i use usb or lsb
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KG4PTZ on August 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In regards to AC7KZ's comment about SSB CB, I have yet to hear a single operator on USB. All I have heard have been running either AM or LSB. Every SSB DX'er I've ever heard on CB has been using LSB. Why this is, I am not sure, but it works, and works well. As a matter of fact, most of the folks on SSB CB (and all of the folks I've heard on it) have been every ounce as courteous as any HF amateur band we have. As far as whether or not folks should be mandated to run one sideband rather than the other, two words come to mind: BULL CRAP!!!!!! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
73,
Kenny Lewis, Jr.
KG4PTZ
Concord, VA
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by N9KWW on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
this subject is a great place to start. Due to our new band (60 meter) we are now forced to use the general practice of USB. We as hams seem to do what evr becouse of whatever. In the world of the real world almost ever other agency used USB. now the use of usb on and HF frequency is just fine, if you desire to use LSB fine as well, just don't do that on the new 60 meter band, we will lose it and that is a fact.
the whole USB vs LSB is all a mater of switch position and what frequency you are on. the mere fact that most yaesu radios will not do USB without a little mod is of no concern. bottom line who care on the ham bands what you do, iy's all amter of choice, on the federaL band's we will play with the fed's rules. their sanf box and thier rules.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA9SVD on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
If you want to make DX contacts on 6M, you will have to use USB. Most openings aren't long enough for other stations to fiddle around trying to figure if you are USB or LSB and will just move on to the next station. I've never heard LSB on 6M, and the only time I've heard or considered LSB on VHF or UHF is when working the satellites that have inverting transponders. (You transmit LSB and the receiving station hears USB.)
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by KB5DPE on August 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
LSB on 40m and below and USB above 40m came into use because of the way sideband was generated in early equipment (mixing and filtering). This is no longer pertinent; however, the convention is still with us. It has served us well and "if its not broke, don't fix it". I does reduce confusion.

 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by WA4MJF on August 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
LSB on 40 meters and above and USB below
40 Meters......

Inverse relationship between frequency and
wavelength.

Of course, USB on 60 (56) Meters by regulations.

73 de Ronnie
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by N0TONE on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
HILARIOUS!!!

Definitely a mountain out of a molehill.

* When I do up/downconverting from one of my radios, I have no choice. The IF of the rig is USB only. If the upconverter has a high-side LO, I will be generating LSB on the microwave bands. Other microwavers understand; just putting a signal on 5760 is hard enough, nobody's going to criticize you about getting the sideband right.

* It's just a switch position, for most of us

* LSB and USB occupy exactly the same bandwidth. If a USB signal on an otherwise LSB band could overlap a QSO, then so could a "proper" LSB signal

I was tuning across 40 meters about a month ago, and heard USB. Easy to spot; I switched sidebands and listented to the Art Bell loonies. One comment they kept coming up with was "weren't we clever to use USB instead of LSB, so nobody could find us!". Heck, it's because they were on USB that I was driven to switch and listen. After they signed off, i called a quick CQ and got half a dozen replies - seems that LOTS of people had zeroed in on the USB!

Some use it for privacy - some to draw attention to themselves.

You decide.

About 20 years ago, there was great excitement over the notion of full duplex using ISB. You'd transmit one sideband and simultaneously receive the other. Nobody ever got serious about it' we don't really like full dux QSOs. DSP definitely gives us the ability to work this feat, nobody's interested.

AM
 
LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K2JXW on August 13, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The only reason for the difference in what you call a "gentleman's agreement" has little or nothing to do with what is legal, proper, or protocol. It is solely a matter of tradition and habit. It had its origins in the early days SSB rigs and was done for purely technical and economical reasons -- filtering and such. It was cheaper and easier to filter out the USB on lower freqs and the LSB on upper freqs.

There is nothing wrong on any band with using either sideband (or BOTH, for that matter - altho using both, DSB or Double Sideband, is unnecessary and wastes space). In fact, limiting operation to only one half of the possible sidebands available for use, wastes the other half: it is possible to fit a LSB as well as a USB station close to each other and still be able to read each.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by P1RAT on May 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Just shows what a complete sham the M3 Callsign is.
They abuse a long established privilidged hobby.
They blatantly use excesses of their requisite power levels.
They encourage CBisms into the hobby.
They should be eliminated and sent to 11 Mtrs where they rightly belong.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by P1RAT on May 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
What do you know about Amateur Radio. Your licence can be obtained by a 5 year old in a weekend. Do not presume to be of the same intelectual standing of PROPER radio Amateurs, now go back to your CB.
 
RE: LSB/USB Chaos on the Bands...  
by K8UPA on July 9, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
with all the crap you hear on 80 meters listening to someone in USB is trivial. Does it take a lot of effort to switch your rig over if you need to hear?
 
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