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In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on August 5, 2003
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In Search of "The Perfect HF Mobile Antenna"

Because of the length and breadth of this article, I have chosen to break it into four parts. The first part covers the subject of resonator coils if you please and their size versus their Q, and their practical applications in mobile antennas. The second section deals with selecting an antenna to meet your needs, and the third addresses the requisite mounting of HF mobile antennas. The last is a few odds and ends, which might make your life easier.

As with my previous articles, I have not included any complex mathematics in an effort to address the newcomers. Those who wish a more complex explanation have many choices in the virtual plethora of ARRL publications available at low cost to any reader.

Before I start, a few words about abbreviations. In my title I used HF rather than High Frequency as most amateurs know what HF is. From here on, if I use an uncommon abbreviation I'll use parentheses to explain, such as HF (high frequency).

The Ubiquitous Resonator

The most common vernacular for an HF mobile antenna resonator is coil. In some cases resonator and inductor are better choices, and for the most part they're interchangeable. While it is in the form of a spring its prime purpose it to cancel out the capacitive reactance inherent in antennas shorter than 1/4 wave length (less than 90 electrical degrees). So in reality it is an inductor with the same reactance, but of opposite sign (+j) with respect to the capacitance (-j).

While not practical, it is possible to have a full quarter wave mobile antenna even on 20 meters. In these cases there isn't any resonator. So from a practical standpoint, we're taking about HF antennas, which are short enough (less than 90 electrical degrees) to need a resonator, and those that don't still have some similar properties, but we're essentially ignoring them in the section.

Like springs, coils come is all sizes and shapes, and if you can think of a shape I suspect it's been made at some time or another. The most common HF antenna coil form is a lumped reactance. -- That is to say all in one small mass. This is in difference to a distributed reactance such as a helically wound coil i.e.: Hamstick®. Both assumed to have their specific attributes favoring them over their counterparts.

Of late, there seems to be a push for the bigger is better category of mobile antennas where the resonator takes on the proportions of a 5 gallon bucket or a spare tire! But are they really that much better? Are they practical from any standpoint, especially mounting? Is their advertised Q (Quality Factor) as good as the hype says they are? Is one form factor better than another? Are screwdriver style antennas really better than the fixed kind? Does short-tapping resonators reduce their Q? Are automatic antennas (tuner and whip setups) all that good? Could Joe Lewis really beat Mohammed Ali? The answers are obvious; it depends upon whom you ask. But, by the end of this section perhaps you will be better armed to ask the right questions and make the right choice for your dream HF mobile station.

All coils have a self-resonance point where the capacitance between the individual coils and the lumped inductive reactance self-resonant. The closer you get to the self-resonant frequency the higher the loss. The factors involved include the length of the wire comprising the inductor, the size of the wire, the type of wire and any plating or coating it may have, the form factor (length versus diameter), the insulating medium, and in the case of the HF mobile antenna, the presents of stray capacitance. The latter takes the form of end caps, mast and whip size, mast and whip length, body proximity, and ground proximity.

Oddly enough, these are the same factors, which control the Q. The Q of an inductor is the ratio of the reactance versus the AC resistance at the frequency of operation, not the DC resistance. While it is possible to measure Q with laboratory instrumentation, in the real world when it is mounted as part of the antenna, it is much more difficult. The point I'm trying to make here is this; while static Q (laboratory measurement) is important, it isn't the whole story.

Let's look at a popular large coil of the bug catcher style. It is 6 in diameter, 8 inches in length, and wound 6 turns per inch with 12 AWG silver plated wire. It's advertised as having a Q well over 1,000 at 4 MHz. While this high Q is commonplace for capacitors, it's nearly impossible to reach this high of a Q in an inductor of any form factor. The practical bench limit is closer to 800, and somewhat lower mounted as part of the antenna. While this coil is advertised to operate 40 through 10 meters, its use on the upper bands requires that the coil be short tapped. In other words, parts of its windings are shorted out. This does lower its Q further, and I'll cover this shortly.

This appears to be an ideal resonator; high power capability, rugged, bold look, etc. But is it? It does have a drawback not readily apparent. Its self-resonance frequency is right in the middle of the 20-meter band! While I agree you wouldn't be using this coil on 10 meters, and maybe not on 12 meters either, the fact that is self-resonant in the middle of the 20-meter band exacerbates the losses at higher frequencies of operation. If your favorite band is 17 meters or 15 meters, this is not the coil for you. Further, it is not only large it is heavy. It requires heavy-duty mounts and springs, and does not lend itself to body mounting, although it can be.

If Q is the only criteria and the required inductance is lower than 25 uh, a coil with a diameter to length ratio of two is the ideal. Coils with this form factor will have a static Q in the range of 400 to 600, but 800 is possible with proper construction. If we need more inductance than this, the coil diameter gets really large as does the distributed capacitance, and the self-resonant point goes down. In short, these large coils are best used on the lower bands.

For inductance in the 25 to 75 uh range, the ideal diameter to length ratio is closer to one. Properly designed, coils with this form factor will have a static Q in the 300 to 400 range, but 500 is possible with good construction techniques.

For large inductance over 75 uh, a form factor of one would still be ideal, but again physical coil size starts to be a problem, so typically you see the form factor of these coils closer to one half (.5, or twice as long as they are in diameter). Average static Q is in the 200 to 300 range, and top out at about 400.

Form factors lower than .5 become very lossy in terms of Q. If your goal is efficiency, cigar-sized coils are out. And the smaller pencil thin ones are no more than wire wound resistors.

Please keep in mind, these are static Q factors, and once mounted as part of the antenna, the Q factor goes down. The addition of a weather shield, metal end caps, mounting ferrules, and the installation of the mast and whip will lower the Q. These reductions may seem insignificant, but they are not as we shall see later on.

It is a given that short tapping (shorting out unneeded turns) lowers Q, but by how much is the meat of the question, and the answer isn't easy. Let me add short tapping is a way of life if you use the same coil for more than one band. If you think you can leave one end of the coil open (not connected to either mast or whip) in an effort to maximize Q, think again! Doing so will cause the unconnected end to arc and possibly destroying the coil in the process. It's called Flywheel Effect in case you're interested.

The factors described in the paragraph before last all effect the change in Q due to short tapping. As a rule, however, short tapping has little affect on coil Q until approximately one half of the coil is shorted out. With three quarters of the coil shorted out, the Q will drop by 25%, and continue to decrease until the coil is shorted out completely. I should point out the lower the form factor the more short tapping lowers Q, but the differences between 2 and .5 are small.

Screwdriver designs claim to circumvent this reduction by storing the unused part of the coil inside and at the same potential as the mast portion of the antenna. While it appears on the surface to work well, the added size of the mast greatly increases the stray capacitance with respect to the coil, to ground, and to the body of the vehicle negating most of the advantages. This is particularly true of the behemoth 6 diameter ones. Screwdriver designs also present wind loading and weight problems, and are difficult to body mount.

One of the more popular lightweight antennas uses a series of small coils distributed along its length. The form factor is maybe .02. This helical winding scheme has a Q in the order of 20 to 40. Short tapping such an antenna lowers its already miniscule Q factor and you end up with little more than a dummy load on a stick. With an efficiency of less than 2% average, one wonders why so many people think it is the cat's meow. -- It just maybe the ease with which they're mounted and matched.

Of late the SGC series of autotuners and Icom's AH-4 entry have in some eyes revolutionized HF mobile operation. They're many times faster tuning than any screwdriver antenna especially when changing bands. They don't require any meters or other external devices to set resonance. They seem ideal, but they do have drawbacks. For example, to keep the stray capacitance losses low, the tuner must be mounted directly at the base of the antenna (this is after all a form of base loading) and this is not always mechanically possible. The radiation resistance (Rr) of a base loaded antenna is approximately one half that of a center loaded antenna. Some will argue the higher the Rr, the better the field strength all else being equal. Without getting into a really long discussion about this, the differences between this antenna solution and most of the others from band to band are typically less than 3 db (an S unit is 6 db), sometimes favoring one, sometimes the other.

The What, Why, and How Antenna Selection

As a general rule, the larger the antenna the better it performs. It would be nice if we could drive around with a full quarter wave 75-meter antenna; alas we cannot. Full quarter waves are not very practical even on 20 meters. On 15, 12 and 10, they're almost commonplace nowadays. But just how much better do they perform? Good question, but you have to lay a little groundwork first.

I'm as guilty as the next guy in quoting efficiency percentages and they don't mean much if we don't know what we're comparing our antenna against. Certainly HF mobile antennas better than a dummy load, but not as good as a beam at 60 feet. So let's set 100% as a lossless quarter wave. This places the average, good-quality, 20 meter HF mobile antenna at about 50% at best, and on the lower HF bands maybe as little as 1%. Remember, we always have some ground loss, some stray capacitance loss, and some coil loss. So it behooves us to minimize the losses (except Rr). Incidentally, a full quarter wave HF mobile antenna only achieves about 80% efficiency primarily due to ground losses.

While I'm on the subject of radiation resistance, I want to cover a few important points. The position of the coil with respect to mast and whip length ratio is a hotly debated subject. Placing the coil higher in the antenna does increase the Rr, but only in that part of the antenna below the coil, not the whole antenna, as some folks erroneously believe. Raising the coil higher also increases coil loss as more inductance is needed; nearly twice as much for center loading versus base loading. The notion that increasing the Rr automatically increases field strength ignores the other losses induced in the process. Further, the higher the coil is, the more likely it could be damaged hitting a tree limb or other obstruction. I'd rather straighten the whip than replace the coil.

I have written several previous articles extolling the virtues of properly mounting antennas to minimize ground losses and stray capacitance losses. And I still stand behind those recommendations. But I'm never going to convince the casual mobile operator to drill a hole in his precious lease vehicle's left quarter panel. So each and every mobileer is going to have to decide which is his/her perfect HF mobile antenna and how they're going to mount it, regardless of efficiency.

Just for the fun of it, let's select a few basic types and look at the pluses and minuses. (Excuse me if a little prejudice sneaks in at this point.) The types are: Single frequency, lumped constant (i.e.: Hustler®), Single frequency distributed constant (i.e.: Hamstick® and Outbacker®), the various screwdriver antennas (too numerous to mention them all, and clearly some better than others), and the autotuner/whip regardless of which brand.

In the first example, Hustler® rules the roost. They're inexpensive (some would say cheap), they fold over easily, they're light weight, and they're reasonably efficient considering their length and coil Q. You're always better off with the lower power coils as the high power ones have large metal end caps which reduces coil Q drastically to speak nothing of wind resistance. Because they are lightweight, they may be mounted using a variety of methods. Since the coil is mounted high, stray capacitance is lower than it is with most screwdriver types when bumper or frame mounted. They match well too; because the coil losses are high enough additional matching usually isn't required. With the addition of spider brackets, several resonators can be mounting on one mast making band changes easy. They are so popular they're almost ubiquitous.

Hamstick® and Outbacker® antennas are also popular because of their lightweight, short length, and in the case of the Hamstick®, low cost (the Outbacker® is as expensive as a good screwdriver antenna). They are also the lossiest of the bunch. This is perhaps an advantage because no matter where or how you mount them, the VSWR is always low.

At a recent Hamfest, I saw one of those behemoth 6 diameter screwdriver antennas for sale used with a $400 price tag. The seller told me he paid over $800 for it new. Just the mast/coil combination weighted close to 15 pounds. I ask him how he had it mounted, and his reply was profane. Other screwdriver antennas are of course lighter, but they're still much heavier than most others. This, and they require a power lead to the base as well as the coax feed. This all but negates their mounting via a heavy-duty ballmount. So in these cases, we have not only the weight to consider, we have to be extra observant of stray capacitance to the body of any vehicle we mount them on. As I hinted previously, large bottom masts add greatly to both ground losses and stray capacitance, and any mounting scheme needs careful consideration for these loss-inducing factors. To a lesser degree, the position of the coil (the ratio between mast and whip length) in the antenna is also a consideration. In other words, some are near the bottom, some are near the top, and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I personally use an Icom AH-4 coupled to a 13 foot, 20-meter resonant antenna to combine the best of both worlds. It perhaps is a little better on 40 than an autotuner and unloaded whip combination. It is equal to any screwdriver I've compared it to, and without a doubt better than any spirally wound one. Others who have tried this combination also agree. One amateur I have known for many years uses an AH-4 and a stainless steel whip with a large tophat in the center. He reports better overall signals than when using his monoband units. I not too surprised, because the lack of a loading coil has allowed him to mount the whip portion on top of his vehicle -- the optimal location for minimizing ground and stray capacitance losses. Don't try this with a screwdriver antenna! The most important consideration is keeping the lead between the tuner and antenna as short as possible.

Then there is the home brew crew. Once upon a time all amateurs were home brewers because you couldn't buy any gear commercially. Nowadays, it's almost become a lost art. -- That notwithstanding, a good quality, efficient, HF mobile antenna can be made from readily available parts. I know at least two amateurs who have made their bottom masts from rigid 1/2 copper water pipe. A 4-foot chunk of pipe, a couple of end caps and a 3/8 in bolt or two, an hour or so of labor, and you're done. The coil can be hand wound, or perhaps a commercial B&W unit, or maybe something from your junk box. You can use PVC as a coil form, but an air wound unit is better. The center insulator can be PVC pipe, phenolic, or even varnished wood. You can use a variety of material for the whip including welding rod, an old stainless steel CB antenna, hobby shop purchased bronze rod, or just about any metallic springy material.

This is a good time to bring up the 3/8? X 24-bolt size. I don't know who decided to make this bolt size ubiquitous, but we're more or less stuck with it. The problem is most 3/8 bolts and studs do not have enough strength to hold a big, heavy antenna. Even the stainless steel ones are suspect. When I set out to make my own, I discovered most hardware store bolts are not threaded their whole length. This is particularly true of the extra strength Grade 5 and higher bolts. I found what I wanted at my local Caterpillar tractor dealer (Fastenal also carries them); a Grade 9 bolt, 3/8? X 24 x 4. At $2 each they're not cheap, but I was able to make three extra long studs by cutting the bolt and dressing the threads with my Dremel Tool. I bet these babies won't snap off!

So every amateur has options depending upon his/her tastes, cost factors, efficiency, and mounting possibilities. You just have to decide what factor is most important to you. One thing every reader needs to keep in mind is just how serious you are about mobile operation. Here's something you can try at home.

Take your dummy load (every shack needs one of these and if you don't have one, shame on you!) and put it out in the back yard. Attach the coax to it using a T connector. At the tee, attach an 8 or 10-foot wire and string it more or less vertically. Now turn on your rig (low power now, no cheating with the amp on), and see how many contacts you can make on your favorite band(s). You just might be surprised at just how many you can make. This then, is the essence of HF mobile antenna operation. Decide on how much efficiency you need, what type of mounting you're willing to use, how much you're willing to spend, how much convenience you want, and make your choice accordingly.

Mounting the Perfect Antenna

Now that you have made your selection, it's time to think about your mounting method and there are a few basic rules, which need to be followed. I know I have harped about stray capacitance and for good reason. It is the single biggest factor effecting HF mobile antenna efficiency. I covered this well in one of my previous articles, but part of that article needs to be repeated here.

The average short, 80 through 15 meter HF mobile antenna (8 to 11 feet in length) exhibits a capacitive reactance of between 20 and 45 pf, some amount of radiation resistance, and other losses. Some form of coil cancels the reactive component and resonates the antenna on the frequency of choice. Below is a schematic of the average mobile antenna.

The nomenclature is as follows: -Xa is the capacitive reactance of the antenna; +Xl the inductive reactance which cancels -Xa and brings the antenna into resonance; Rl which is the resistive losses in the coil; Rg which is the ground losses; Rr the radiation loss; and Cs which is the capacitive shunt losses. It is this latter loss we're most concerned with here because it bypasses the radiation loss component of the antenna as can be easily seen by looking at the schematic.

An 8-foot mobile antenna at 7.2 MHz has a capacitance of 28 pf. If by poor mounting location and position we were to introduce 10 pf of stray (shunt) capacitance, our antenna efficiency would be cut by 35%. This is not rocket science; it is Ohm's law! (Yes you can tune out the stray capacitive reactance by increasing the inductance of the coil, but this does not negate the loss and in fact adds to it.)

Thus it behooves us to keep the various antenna parts as far away from the body of the vehicle as possible, especially the coil. This is nearly impossible when mounting a large screwdriver antenna on a van or SUV. In these cases, it is always better (from an efficiency standpoint) to mount the antenna at the front of the vehicle.

Once you have selected the best mounting place, the mounting method is your next consideration. I'm personally an advocate of permanent mounting, and I don't mind drilling holes. I use an old GE Master ballmount, which is unfortunately no longer made, and I hoard the two I own. (If you know who originally made these mounts, I'd like to know.) These mounts are sturdy enough to hold a 15 pound antenna if mounted correctly. Although it would look a little funny mounted under one of those 6 behemoth screwdrivers, I think it would hold it. If you do decide on a ballmount, make absolutely sure there is room on the backside to attach the hardware. Pick a flat spot where there is a nearby crease in the sheet metal, and attach the mount near the crease. This will help keep flexing to a minimum. Of course, if your vehicle has a plastic or aluminum body you're almost out of luck using any sort of body or ballmount.

I also use a spring, but for just one reason; in case some nut decides to yank on the antenna just because it's there. The ones I use were once made by HyGain and unfortunately MFJ, the new owners of HyGain, have not seen fit to remanufacture them. Most CB type springs are not adequate for any antenna bigger than a standard CB whip. There are critics who say springs are a source of problems, and they can be if the internal braid opens or becomes intermittent. I've never had this happen to me, but I don't dispute that it does. However, mounting the antenna too close to the body causes the usual problems with springs. As the antenna sways, the stray capacitance changes, as does the resonant point. To use or not to use a spring is up to the user.

If you're not going to drill holes, then your choices become strained unless you've selected a lightweight antenna like one of those helically wound jobs. Then even a lightweight license plate mount or truck-lip mount will do. Adding 3 or 4 or more db of loss isn't going to make much difference to an already lossy antenna.

If you're mounting a heavier antenna like a screwdriver type, you'll need a more substantial mount. Several companies make trailer hitch mounts, but remember these add to the overall losses. An extension to your frame in the form of a thick chunk of aluminum may be the only method open to you, but these too add to the overall losses. This brings up an interesting anecdote.

Almost everyone I know who uses a screwdriver type antenna has them mounted on a homebrew mount. The lack of any common solution to mounting these antennas to any vehicle is a potential problem. Hi-Q Antennas does offer a bracket assembly for mounting theirs (as well as some neat-o-slick custom stuff), as do others, but you the user have to provide the attaching methodology. You should keep this in mind before selecting the brand and type of screwdriver antenna, as some are easier to mount than others, (remember the 6 behemoth?). Although it is important to keep the mast clear of body sheet metal, it's imperative to keep the coil away as far as possible. Some designs don't lend themselves to this, as their coils are to close to their bases. So pay attention to this potential problem before you buy.

Odds and Ends

Matching the low impedance of a decent HF mobile antenna used to be easy; we all had tunable tanks on our mobile rigs. Nowadays with the advent of solid-state rigs, we no longer have this ability. Some of the latest rigs have built-in tuners, which easily match the 2, or 3 to 1 VSWR present is good quality HF mobile antennas (albeit they cannot be used to match a 20 meter antenna to 40 meters). Some screwdriver designs have a built-in, shunt matching coil at the base intended to provide a 50-ohm match across their operating range. They're a compromise at best. You're much better off with a transmission line transformer (better know as an UNUN) almost no matter what kind of antenna you use. Properly made their insertion loss in under 2%, and typically one tap will give a low enough VSWR from 80 through 10 meters that your rig won't care. An UNUN is also a good way to DC ground your antenna. An RF choke is an alternative solution.

Using a VSWR bridge to match a mobile antenna is suspect for several reasons. Effects of shunt capacitance and secondary resonance can give false readings. If you're using a monoband antenna, and you don't own an antenna analyzer, then borrow one. It'll turn a very long job into a very short one. But if you're using a screwdriver type antenna, a VSWR bridge is about your only recourse while you're underway. Might I suggest you use one of the dual needle units, which allows you to see both forward and reverse reading simultaneously removing some of the ambiguity. Auto-controllers are nice too if you can afford one.

If you want to use a small, cockpit mounted antenna tuner to match your HF antenna to your solid-state rig, then do it. Even with a 5:1 VSWR, the additional losses through 20 feet of coax is minimal even at 30 MHz (<.3 db for RG8). But don't expect the same results tuning your 20-meter antenna to 40 meters through the coax! Even if you could, the losses would be nearly 100% and both the coax and tuner would have their voltage limits exceeded.

Every amateur should read Walter Maxwell's (W2DU) Another Look as Reflections (available on-line to ARRL members). I don't know who first coined the term “veswaritis” (pronounced vees-waa-er-itis), but Walt did his best to dispel the myth. Alas, far too many amateurs catch this bug every year.

Since I'm talking about HF mobile antennas in this article, let's look at the input Z of the average antenna. The term Z is used to describe a complex impedance. -- In other words, the combination of the resistive and reactive components. On the lower bands the Z is typically 12 to 25 ohms, but some lossy antennas can have an input Z in excess of line 50 ohms. In general, however, if the unmatched Z exhibits a VSWR of about 2:1, which is about right, you need some form of matching, a.k.a. UNUN. If it is less than this (VSWR), you should start asking yourself “How lossy is my antenna?” Now I don't want to get into any long-length discussion about this subject; I'll just refer you back to Walt's dissertation. But I will say this: If the unmatched VSWR is less than 1.5:1, you need a better antenna.

One more little comment about VSWR: When your VSWR meter reads 2:1 and assuming the load is resistive, the resistance could be either 25 or 100 ohms. This is why I suggest using an antenna analyzer. It can show you the actual resistive value as well as the reactance.

Mounting location is important, and here in America it should always be on the left of the vehicle (or on top). There are several reasons for this. If it is mounted on the right side of the vehicle and you're parallel parked, there is always some frog who wants to meet Buster Brown and twang your magic twanger (if that doesn't date me, nothing will!). And have you even noticed; the tree and bridge clearances are always higher nearer the center of the road? And I prefer to mount mine where I can rotate the rearview mirror and reassure myself that my precious antenna is still there after hitting that poor defenseless pigeon. Front mounting is okay too, and contrary to popular opinion, it isn't any more electrically noisy than rear mounting. If you have a van or motorhome, this might be your best bet.

Here's a real hint I wish everyone would follow: Take as much time mounting your rig in your vehicle as you do your antenna. And please do yourself a favor. Don't use bungee cords or Velcro®. You might think they're safe at any speed, but they're not. The term "throw the rig in the car and go" isn't the way to go! Safety First! Always!

Headsets are great devices if they're legal where you drive. Coupled with the use of VOX, you can drive and talk at the same time. Just be mindful of the cord. If you have a choice, get one with just one earpiece. This way you can hear the siren of the cop whose pulling you over for wearing it where it isn't legal.

Don't you just love corona balls? They're the little thingies at the tip of your whips. If your antenna doesn't have one, then get one. -- The bigger the better. They help control QRN and they lesson the chance of injury in case the whip gets away from you while stowing your antenna in the trunk. Several companies market 1 corona balls which are adequate for power levels up to 500 watts. If you operate above 10,000 feet or run more than 500 watts, then a 2 one is more appropriate.

Tophats or more correctly capacity hats are typically disc-shaped devices mounted above the coil. They increase the capacitance above the coil at the expense of increased wind resistance (drag). This added capacitance has the effect of increasing the length of the whip thus less inductive reactance is needed (smaller coil) to resonant the antenna. The ideal placement is at the very top of the whip, which is impractical in a mobile venue. Mounting it too close to the coil increases losses, so a mid mounting position is the norm. From a practical standpoint they're not practical although a lot of folks use them. In reality they could be square and they don't need to be mounted perpendicular to the axis of the whip either. They could take the shape of a flag or pennant replete with your call sign in living color.

Quick disconnects can be a source of problems if they're not well made. Texas Bug Catcher and HiQ Antennas both market acceptable units. Expect to pay $35 to $50 for a good one. The small CB styles, which sell for $12 to $15, aren't worth the effort.

If you use stays or cords to help anchor your antenna, don't use nylon rope, Spectra®, or any other hygroscopic (moisture retaining) material. Delron® rod works well as does Plexiglas. Always endeavor to keep the stays or cords below the coil to minimize losses.

Let's readdress the subject of losses and antenna efficiency as I close this article. I have received a lot of responses to my various articles relating to how many DX countries a particular amateur has worked with his short and lossy trunk-lip mounted antenna. I refer you back to the paragraph about setting up your dummy load in the back yard and seeing how many contacts you can make. If the band conditions are good, the proverbial wet noodle will get the job done. But as I write this, 20 meters has been all but dead for the last few weeks. Signals on 17 meters are even more marginal, and 10 meters is a vast wasteland. As the sun spot cycle continues to wane, conditions will only get worse and every little bit of efficiency you can garner is worth the effort.

Alan Applegate, KØBG

Roswell, NM

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by NJ6F on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

For the car I use a 4 foot Spider antenna that has the coils top mounted, 4 bands at a time and with the ferrite core sliders on the nice (slim coils) that have a numbered scale, each coil is pretuned already so there is no need for a tuner and I use a stainless steel mast. Set the ferrite core once and forget it.
This offers fast band change while driving with no hassle...just push the band button and your there. It does not have that much wind resistance since the coils are the width of your finger and maybe 1 to 2 feel long. (Fast pretuned) switching to any band / coil that is on the antenna is my preference in a top loaded design. Just because we have autotuners, this does not mean we have to go backwards and force ourselves to use them on bug catcher type antennas.
I catch no bugs with my setup and it is relatively lightweight and the fastest switching. Screw the Q

I also have the spider antenna set up as a dipole in a portable stationary configuration that is only 8 feet in length and run 75 thru 6 meters automatically... yes all the resonators are on each end including the WARC bands. In this case I use my quiet FC20 autotuner to just trim up little differences.
Happy mobiling/ Rich
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by DOODAH on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thank you very much for taking the time to write this. There are plenty of 'takers' here, but not many 'givers' - thanks for making the effort.

Now, how can we turn this into a CW argument, LOL
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, are you ever going to end this "analysis" of mobile antennas? You have done about 4 or 5 articles full of your usual nonsense. Got any other topics to talk about, you are really getting boring!
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, are you ever going to end this "analysis" of mobile antennas? You have done about 4 or 5 articles full of your usual nonsense. Got any other topics to talk about, you are really getting boring!
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, are you ever going to end this "analysis" of mobile antennas? You have done about 4 or 5 articles full of your usual nonsense. Got any other topics to talk about, you are really getting boring!
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, how many more of these mobile antenna articles are you going to do. You have personally disseminated more incorrect information than probably any other person on this site. Do you know any other topics that you can butcher.
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC1QF on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As a mobile user I have used Hustlers (both thin and thick), Hamsticks (from 80 to 10), Hamstick look alikes, Yaesu ATAS-100, Texas 10" bug catcher, SV1SV (a series of mobile antennas with center loading made in Greece), the recent 20 meter collapsible whip for the FT-817 and others. The best signal reports I get are from the ham whips (on a small European car) and recently the ATAS-100 (operated by an Icom 706MKII(G) using the ATAS-100 controller - a $100 accessory one could built for $10, but this is another story). I use this combination with a Jeep Wrangler TJ and it works great.

I recently bought a W6AAQ but haven't installed it yet, and plan to do so over the next few months.

What I need to do is to get rid of the electrical noise on the TJ. The antenna mount is welded on the front bumper for perfect ground. NB does a good job, but only when the car is stationary, is the reception perfect. I have installed a second deep cycle battery for amateur radio use, separated from the main battery circuit by a battery isolator. It works well.

Let me know how you managed to get rid of noise on a North American spec'd 1999 Wrangler TJ. Thanks!

Best 73s,
Peter, KC1QF/LX1QF
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K0BG on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Peter, I wrote an article about noise abatement. The URL is: http://www.eham.net/articles/4623 and it maybe of some help.

Alan, KØBG
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K4IQT on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, thanks for the excellent tutorial. Except for the ubiquitous VHF whip, I'm about done with mobile antennas myself. My first was a 2-meter halo back in 1962, and then a lotta years with Hustler HF mobile antennas with dual base springs and holes in the rear bumper or just behind the rear window in front of the trunk lid.

After having several destroyed by tree branches and by people who discovered that the resonator was unscrewable, I sort of gave up. Also, new cars don't have real bumpers, and I'm tired of patching and painting before trading in the old heap.

I love your description of an improper mobile antenna: "and you end up with little more than a dummy load on a stick." Actually, almost all HF mobile antennas that can be used while in motion are very close to dummy loads, but still can be lots of fun.

73,
Terry
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC8RQH on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Is that all you do is just rag on people? I have read the last 2 articles, and that's all you do is bash on people. You sir need somthing more in your life. I am sorry to see that your selfesteam is so low, that you have to bash on people to make you fell better about yourself, Who are you to call someone stupid? What make's you better than anyone else. I really feel sorry for the people that are around you.

What Ashame
73
KC8RQH
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC8RQH on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
that reply was for WA8KJP
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W5RDF on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Like many amateurs I too have searched for the Holy Grail of mobile HF. For the past few years I have been using the Icom AH-4 tuner connected to a 7 ft. hamstick style antenna, but it was designed for two meters. My feeling was that the minimal amount of coil on the antenna would minimize any I2R losses (RF heating). For your diehard Hustler users, tune up with your 75 or 40 M resonator and leave the rig in CW mode for about 30 seconds, then unkey the TX and place your hand on the coil, notice the heat, that's your precious TX power heating up the air. When you use a tuner Icom SGC, etc. remember a few rules. First use a good conductor from the tuner to the antenna, capable of withstanding the high voltage that is present. If possible use pure copper spark plug wire, be careful! most wire is really a composite and has a high resistance. A good place to check is your local lawn mover shop. Use good connectors crimp on ring terminals are ok if you solder the conductor to the body of the ring terminal. For your tuner to ground use a large short connection, again solder the connectors. Drill a hole close to the tuner and clean it down to bare metal with your Dremel tool, mount using a stainless sheet metal screw and a star washer. Most modern mobile rig have a plus and minus leads. Terminate these at the battery, again with good connections. In addition, ground the case of the transceiver to a good car frame ground, don't forget to take it to bare metal. For the antenna mount shop around, check with the local two-way shop, they may have a junk pile with a commercial ball mount, ASP, Motorola, GE all will work fine. When using a used mount it is a good idea to go to your local marine parts store and purchase new stainless steel hardware for the mount. . Plan your installation carefully and assemble all your various parts and pieces prior to starting the project. Holes can be drilled in such locations to minimize the impact. Finally, bolt the transceiver down, having it slige around on the seat or on the floor can be a real hazard. If you are the faint of heart type and don'w want to drill any holes, don't expect top performance from your mobile installation.
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KG4NEL on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Once again, an excellently-written article about something that looks much, much easier than it actually is. I'm in the process of putting the finishing touches on my mobile installation, including an AH-4/102" whip combination for HF and 6m. For mobile HF (and really, anything mobile) you shouldn't make compromises in anything - equipment or installation practices. Maybe I'm just a little too concerned with making things neat and organized(probably comes from another hobby of mine, car audio), but a clean install is one you can be proud of, and not be afraid to show other people.

Jim
KG4NEL




 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm a nebish and a kvetch. I can't function in a normal society, I simply need attention. The only way I know to get (negative) attention is to lash out at others. My behaviour is pathological I know, but it makes me feel superior for the momement. I crave to actually have the knowledge of those that I rail against. My insecurity and jealousness comes out as anger and I refuse to deal with it. Denial is my middle name, stunted social misfit is my game.
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
Anonymous post on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Well well, another inbred idiot bootlegging my call. What is up with people who are just gutless wonders that hide when they act really stupid. Apparently, this hobby is full of these kinds of inbreds.
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W7RHT on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KJP, if the shoe fits....
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3UD on August 5, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

Great article and worthy of publication in any of the ham journals.
After reading it, one wonders how any mobile work gets done, especially on 75 and 160 meters. It just goes to show that not a lot of radiated energy is required in order to make contacts.

I am one of the diehard Hustler users and have using the same Hustler I purchased used in 1965 when I was still a Novice and could not drove. Yes the resonators get real warm with 20 or 30 second transmitted carrier attesting to the inherent ineffeciency of the design, but.........I get what I consider good results with it, working both coasts and Alaska on 75 and routinely working DX on 40 meter CW (while parked).

Never had the same performance out of the hamsticks, and really do not want the overhead of the big Bugcatchers or the Screwdrivers. Sometimes the tradeoffs are worth it.

I am going to try the Dummy Load / 10 foot wire this weekend. Kind of sounds like the MAXX COM antenna tuner(?) that sold for $500 back in the 80s and probably just as effective (or ineffective)

Thanks for the effort put into the article!

73
George
K3UD
 
He missed it completely  
by N0TONE on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG, I think your title is highly misleading. Your article is not about "the perfect mobile antenna". Your article is about "optimizing the center-loaded mobile antenna".

The highest efficiency mobile antenna would not use a center loading coil at all, but would be top-loaded.

AM
 
RE: He missed it completely  
by ANULLRETENTIVE on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Not misleading at all. Define "perfect". To some it may mean radiated RF efficiency only. To others it might be a combination or tradeoff of other factors, ie; Bandwidth, Q, weight, aerodynamics, ease of mounting, physical appearance, etc.
 
RE: He missed it completely  
by K0BG on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To N0TONE.

Actually, it isn't about any particular type of loading, center or otherwise albeit some work much better than others. As others have pointed out, you have to decide for yourself which is best for your type of operation.

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: He missed it completely  
by K5DVW on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
WA8KJP must suffer from more than one mental disorder as now it appears he's arguing with himself. Sheesh!

Alan, I didn't read the entire article, but I'm sure it's full of good material for those who are more interested in just picking up a microphone and talking.

Thanks

DVW
 
RE: He missed it completely  
by KX8N on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Sad how ANY post on e-Ham can turn into a bunch of bashing. It's no wonder that nobody takes hams seriously.
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC8HZM on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Great article, I enjoyed reading it.

I wonder how the small ground plane of a car affects antenna efficiency. For example, even at 10 meters, the roof of most cars is far smaller then 1/4 wave in any direction. Would there be any benefit to using electrically shortened radials to provide a more proper 1/4 wave ground plane?

Marten
KC8HZM
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by WB2WIK on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article, I finally found the time to actually read it!

Re corona balls: What if you only have a female corona, what then? :)

Re HF mobile antennas in general, I've always found that *any* mobile antenna works best when my vehicle is parked next to the ocean or atop a high mountain. Curious how the antenna seems to know where I'm parked, and behave accordingly.

73 de Steve, WB2WIK/6

 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K0BG on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Actually Steve, it is you who have the aurora, not your antenna. And I must say, you are an inspiration for us all.

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by X-WB1AUW on August 6, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Nice prose Alan.

Very informative series of articles.

Much more coherent than anything else I've read about mobile antennas.

73
Bob, AE7G
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan,

I know you are not going to like to hear this again, but your schematic model of the HF antenna is seriously flawed. You show ALL shunt capacitance after the coil, and BEFORE the Rr of the antenna. This would only be true if the loading coil were IN THE TRUNK, and the mount exited through the trunk.

By using a flawed and seriously over-simplified model, the results are totally misleading when applied to conventional antennas. Repeating misleading information in article after article does NOT make it correct. It certainly does not make our community more skilled or better informed about how things work.

As an additional point, the section on Q is not entirely accurate. While the Q limits I have bench measured with special fixturing are indeed around 1000, they do NOT decrease when the inductor is out in open air on a mobile antenna!

Form factor also does NOT change by inductance value, it changes by REACTANCE value. REACTANCE is the key when setting optimum form factor, not inductance.

For example, a 20 uH inductor on 1.8MHz would be optimum with a nearly unity form factor. As we move significantly higher in frequency, the same 20uH inductor would require a longer and longer form and smaller diameter to remain at optimum Q. This is because end-to-end and turn-to-turn capacitance plays a larger role. The self-resonant frequency MUST be moved higher to ensure optimum Q, and that REQUIRES a longer and more slender form.

At low frequencies mutual coupling dominates, and the optimum form becomes compressed in length and larger in diameter.

Thus it is a reactance problem, NOT an inductance value problem!!!

While I appreciate all your efforts, it is impotant that reareds and writers fully understand why and how something works before reaching conclusions. Otherwise this all just wastes bandwidth, and people learn incorrect information. The goal of E-Ham and Internet should be to INCREASE technical skills through mass peer review and learning, not to repeat misinformation.

While I have many hundreds of hours of work time measuring inductors, my time pales compared to some of the most comprehensive studies. The most comprehensive studies and even general technical information, as well as my own experience, significantly disagree with this article.

I certainly hope you keep writing, but I hope you review basic concepts key to understanding and explaining antennas.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KE1MB on August 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Oh the Hamstick.... So my ideas on taking the easest to mount antenna and make it worth something are such. I am going to attempt to remove the plastic wrap and wire from the fiberglass portion of the antenna. Then experiment with light weight 4" or better prewound coils at the mid way point. Once a desired coil length is found and the connection from the base to the coil is compleate the the coil could be affixed to the fibergalss with epoxy. One side of the coil will have to be against the fiberglass support. In other words the coil will not be centered. I would think this would allow me to use the lightweight design with a much better coil. I have tried this before using a 8ft wip cut in half with PVC as a insulator and a large coil and it worked great. I will have to see with the Hamstick.
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by FJGH on August 8, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As far as the perfect mobile antenna, there ain't no such animal. A 160, 80, and 40 meter mobile antenna is a dummy load as far as I'm concerned. You can spend all year optimizing an antenna for these bands and you won't gain anything noticeable. I'll bet if you dragged a 20' piece of wire behind your car it wouldn't be any worse of an antenna. On 20 m or higher, you might get into the 5 - 15 % efficiency range. Better than nothing but perfect, I don't think so.
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by AB7JK on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What's the big deal? Just mount a Hamstick in a Hustler mag-mount and transmit - talk about killing what should otherwise be a simple and fun experience. The "I know more than you know" one-upmanship type hobby killers are on the loose again!
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC8VWM on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Now, how can we turn this into a CW argument?

 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yes, unfortunately another "elaborate" article missing the point and title. What is the result of the "search"? Where are any comparisons or data showing effect of Q, position of the coil, top hat, top loading, mounting place, where is the search?
What is "the perfect mobile antenna"?
If one is looking for information on efficient mobile antenna, there is an excellent book out there by Herb Johnson.

If one wants to put out "killer" signal from mobile installation, here are some basic rules:

1. Car - get the biggest mother boat on the wheels you can get. Highway cruisers from the 60ies and 70ies are the best. Large sheet metal gives you better "ground" counterpoise and capacitive coupling to ground. Some serious mobilers use small trucks. Today's plastic toy cars are compromise and will detract from your signal. SUVs are not the best (perfect :-) cars for radio efficient antenna mounts. Roof mount shortens the antenna length, bumper mount "shields" the antenna, distorts the pattern.

2. Antenna mounting place. The best is on the roof or fender of sedan. Fender is more practical and good compromise between length of the antenna and location on the "ground plane." Bumper or trailer hitch on sedan are next, SUV the worst.

3. Antenna. For maximum efficiency the current carrying portion (base) of antenna should be the longest possible. Top hat, top loading and smallest coil mounted high are the best. The uglier, the better. To gain efficiency on low bands I use top loading guy wire going to a short mast on the front bumper. Yes, you can work DX on 160 and it doesn't look too bad. Screwdriver antennas are the best compromise between efficiency, continuous tuning and decent looks. Better than jumper shorted coils, hamsticks or dipsticks. Base loaded whips and tuners at the base are the worst, in the range of 10s of dBs.

4. Loading coils. Should be mounted as high as possible in the antenna mast to increase the current radiating portion of the whip. Wire or tubing should be rated to carry the power without melting the coil. Q of the coil is not that important, coil in this situation is the part of the radiating element, most of the current is at the base of the coil and surprisingly Q or form factor is not THAT important as measured and verified experimentally by W9UCW. Loading coils at the base or autotuners are the worst. Bugcatchers, single coils with no shorting, spider mounts for multiple coils are very efficient.

5. Top Loading. Is the best, can be made in the form of spokes, spoked wheel, or other forms of top hats. Guy wire attached above the top of loading coil is the best, using magnet wire, almost invisible. It can go to the front or rear (or both) bumper mounts.

6. Matching. On 40m and down the impedance gets very low. The best way to match is use few turns of copper tubing coil with alligator clip and finding 50 ohm point on the coil. It takes about 5 turns on 160. Nice thing is you also have continuity for DC to ground. Better way yet is to make antenna electrically longer and use series variable capacitor to tune it across the band.

7. Power. Antenna should take the power without unnecessary losses due to heating. Proper wire gage in coils, good connections, good (copper or aluminum) material for radiating parts helps. Corona balls or loops for low bands are required if running 500W or more.

8. Noise suppression. Very important, but not the subject here, as well as use of headphones or lipstick.

"Perfect" mobile antenna? It would most likely be vertical wire quarter wave long, "terminated" by kite and pulled by 1960 Caddy, with quick winch. More perfect would be another one following it quarter wave behind and phased, while also pulling trailing Beverage RX antenna behind.

What is K3BU using for efficient setup? 1972 Buick LeSabre, ICOM 706MKIIg, Metron and KLM amps, two Hustler masts mounted on the fenders for HF. Mag mount VHF antennas on the roof. Hustler coils are rewound with 1/4" copper tubing or #12 wire, used either as single or spider mount for 3 resonators and loading wires going to front bumper mast. One of the masts will be replaced with hefty screwdriver for the "general coverage." Might be not perfect, but closest to very efficient within the possibilities and sanity. I hope this gives some perspective in few words.

Yuri, K3BU/m, VE3BMV/m, VE1BY/m
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Everything is great except this:

<<4. Loading coils. Should be mounted as high as possible in the antenna mast to increase the current radiating portion of the whip. Wire or tubing should be rated to carry the power without melting the coil. Q of the coil is not that important, coil in this situation is the part of the radiating element, most of the current is at the base of the coil and surprisingly Q or form factor is not THAT important as measured and verified experimentally by W9UCW. Loading coils at the base or autotuners are the worst. Bugcatchers, single coils with no shorting, spider mounts for multiple coils are very efficient.>>>

The idea current is high in only the start of a coil is not correct.

Model an antenna with EZnec, and look at the load. Model a coil in any software, and look at current. Read any textbook, even beginner's textbooks, and see what they say. Measure a real antenna yourself!

The rule is this:
Coil current is essentially equal at both ends, as long as the coil is not long compared to the length of the antenna.

Kirchoff was not a fool, his Laws do work.

Also spider mounts do sometimes decrease performance,depending on what resonators you mix.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI writes:
>>The idea current is high in only the start of a coil is not correct. <<

Wrong again Tom!
Loading coil in the antenna is part of the radiator and current is distributed proportionally across it, just like in the "missing" radiator that coil is replacing/shortening. Quite a difference from the coil in the resonant RF circuit. You can quote Eznecs and Kirchhofs and books, but you should measure it in the real life antenna and convince yourself once for all.
W9UCW has done lot of measurements, confirmed the FACT (not some "theory") and anyone can do the same. Just take the neon bulb and move across the coil and see the difference, increase towards the tip in intensity (RF voltage), which corresponds to decreasing current in the coil.

So according to your "teachings", if we replaced rest of the antenna whip with coil we would have, maintain the same current all the way to the tip? Isn't that what we are all dreaming about in the mobile or shortened antennas? Get real!
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by CWTITAN on August 9, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Awwwwwwwah, just build a screwdriver antenna and forget all this garbage. You can even purchase some really nice ones....They always work the best....
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3FKI on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3FKI on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Will you comment on the Diamond and Comet mobile HF antennae?
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

You are like to call names, insult people, and argue rather than take the time to learn basic electronics. This is in any book, including the ARRL Handbook. If you look at HOW an inductor works, the current flowing in one terminal ALWAYS equals the current flowing out the other terminal.

THE VOLTAGE can be (and is) different on each end of the inductor, NOT the current. The voltage drop current times reactance. An inductor with 1000 ohms loading your 160 meter antenna (or any other antenna) would have 1000 volts across the inductor when 1 ampere was flowing THROUGH the inductor to the antenna above the inductor.

The reason the bulb brightness is very much different at each end of the coil is a neon bulb indicates voltage, not current. One end of the coil is close to the feedline and has little voltage, the other end is at the antenna and has E=I*X, or 100 volts plus whatever the sum of original voltage was. The voltage difference across the coil, for 1 ampere of current, must ALWAYS be 1000 volts in this example.

Barry and you have made serious and obvious technical mistakes. First, you are measuring incorrectly. You can not use a neon bulb to measure current. Second, you are telling the world Henry, Ohm, and the rest are idiots....you are not arguing not me, you are arguing with every textbook published and the rules made up by people smarter than you and I.

I just trust Ohm and the fellows more than I trust you, sorry. When I read Barry's Law, or Yuri's Law of neon bulbs measuring current in a textbook or see proof it works, than I will agree with you. Name calling and insults or references to another ham someplace who has an unknown knowlege of electronics won't convince me you know what you are talking about, and are smarter than Henry, Ohm, Kirchoff, and the rest or that you know more than the ARRL Handbook editors.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI writes:

>>You are like to call names, insult people, and argue rather than take the time to learn basic electronics. This is in any book, including the ARRL Handbook. If you look at HOW an inductor works, the current flowing in one terminal ALWAYS equals the current flowing out the other terminal. <<


What names did I call you? What insults did I use? Wasn't that you who was mocking me way back, calling names and "pathological scientist" (when you were wrong)? You are wrong and you are using wrong case to argue your point. The above is true for coils in RF circuits, but not for loading coil in the antenna!!! I am arguing because I see wrong and I won't let it fly by. Who needs to learn basic electronics is perhaps you, you argue against measured FACTS and REALITY.

>>THE VOLTAGE can be (and is) different on each end of the inductor, NOT the current. The voltage drop current times reactance. An inductor with 1000 ohms loading your 160 meter antenna (or any other antenna) would have 1000 volts across the inductor when 1 ampere was flowing THROUGH the inductor to the antenna above the inductor.<<

In RF circuits, but not in the antenna loading coil!!! MEASURE IT!

>>Barry and you have made serious and obvious technical mistakes. First, you are measuring incorrectly. You cannot use a neon bulb to measure current. Second, you are telling the world Henry, Ohm, and the rest are idiots....you are not arguing not me, you are arguing with every textbook published and the rules made up by people smarter than you and I. <<

No, Barry measured it correctly (with thermocouples and RF ammeters) and you can do it too. Why don't you measure it and then argue??? See who is the idiot!

Show me the textbook that says that in the loading coil in the antenna radiator the current is the same at both ends of the coil. Neon bulb used at the antenna indicates that voltage increases towards the end, while current decreases proportionally. Coil is the part of the radiator. All textbooks show that. Look at page 9-34, Fig. 9-40 in ON4UN's Low Band DXing 3rd Edition. You would see that short vertical with loading coil has a different value of the current at the bottom and diffrent (less) at the top of the coil. There is a nice cosine formula which will let you calculate the amount of current at each end.

As K7GCO told you once, "don't you get tired of being wrong?" This is about 5th argument that you will lose with me.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Yuri,

<<argue your point. The above is true for coils in RF circuits, but not for loading coil in the antenna!!! I am arguing because I see wrong and I won't let it fly by. Who needs to learn basic electronics is perhaps you, you argue against measured FACTS and REALITY.>>

I'm sorry Yuri but what you say is not correct. Unless the coil has considerable length compared to the antenna length, it has the essentially the same current in one terminal as out the other.

Think of it this way. An antenna requires a given amount of current to radiate a given power for a certain radeiation resistance. It follows the law of I squared R, just like a resistor (excepot the power is radiated as EM wave).

If what you were claiming were true, and the current was high only in the first few turns, you would have no I to drive the antenna radiation resistance distributed along the antenna. You might as well just throw the antenna away, and load up the coil alone.

<<In RF circuits, but not in the antenna loading coil!!! MEASURE IT!>>

I have. Probably many dozens of times in antennas. I used real current meters, not neon bulbs. Neon bulbs do not measure anything, let alone current. They indicate and respond to voltage since the electric field ionizes the gas inside the bulb. You can also model this on any modeling program, and look at current distribution.

<<Show me the textbook that says that in the loading coil in the antenna radiator the current is the same at both ends of the coil. Neon bulb used at the antenna indicates that voltage increases towards the end, while current decreases proportionally. >>

Neon bulbs do not measure current. To measure the current, you have to break the circuit and insert a device in series with the system that measures current.

We normally measured current in NDB tranmitters for airport beacons. On the antenna side of the loading coil, we measured exactly the same current (within the limits of the meter) as on the transmitter side of the loading coil.

Ask any VLF operator using short antenna how much current he reads between the loading coil and the antenna.

<<Coil is the part of the radiator. All textbooks show that. Look at page 9-34, Fig. 9-40 in ON4UN's Low Band DXing 3rd Edition. You would see that short vertical with loading coil has a different value of the current at the bottom and diffrent (less) at the top of the coil.>>

I just looked at that, and you are right. John is incorrect, and I'll bring it to his attention. Thanks for pointing that out.

The CORRECT current distribution is shown in the ARRL Antenna Handbook in 16-6 figure 9 of the 18th Edition. They also explain it correctly. You can also find it in Termin's biook, Radio Engineers Handbook in the chapter on antennas page 795 figure 28 of the his First Edition.

So there are three references, and all are good reliable books written and peer reviewed by more than one person. So it is not one person's "word" or idea. There also are the models, that most people can do on a computer.

The rule is this, a 10-foot tall whip loaded with a coil at the base actually has MORE current at the base into the WHIP then when center or top loaded when it radiates the same amount of power. This extra current is what causes the additional ground losses.

The Antenna Handbook and other commercial texts are right on, and anyone who has ever measured systems with physically small loading coils (compared to the length of the antenna) knows this.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<K3BU wrote:
>>W8JI writes:

>>I'm sorry Yuri but what you say is not correct. Unless the coil has considerable length compared to the antenna length, it has the essentially the same current in one terminal as out the other. <<

Aaaah Tom, here you come again, first being wrong, then realizing that perhaps you are wrong, then start clouding the issue with mumbo-jumbo, sneaking in "condition," then you will go quiet for a while and then we will see corrected "teachings" about the subject on your home page and in postings to reflectors. We've been there, done it how many times? Real man admits mistake, and real, real man would even apologize for being wrong and thank for getting straightened out.
Now we see "considerable length" and "essentially" creeping in and more smoke and mirrors.
First you flatly stated that loading coil within antenna has always same current at both ends and you called your dead "friends" and their books as a witnesses. Your claims about EZNEC and other software "showing" the same current is defective, because physical size of the coil or length to diameter ratio is not considered, and that is the key to the difference in amount of current flowing in and out of the loading coil.
Another "discovery" of this effect is mentioned way back in ARRL Antenna Compendium Vol. 1 p. 109 by W6TWW where he states: "Therefore, the current exiting the top of the coil is the same as that entering the bottom of the coil. (This is true for conventional coils. However, radiation from long skinny coils allows coil current to decrease, as in helically wound antennas.)" To what extent, depends on the physical arrangement, but more-less it is always there.

>>Think of it this way. An antenna requires a given amount of current to radiate a given power for a certain radiation resistance. It follows the law of I squared R, just like a resistor (except the power is radiated as EM wave).<<

...and that (effects of radiation) is the difference that you seem to ignore.

>>If what you were claiming were true, and the current was high only in the first few turns, you would have no I to drive the antenna radiation resistance distributed along the antenna. You might as well just throw the antenna away, and load up the coil alone.<<

That's nonsense, the current is proportionally distributed and diminishing across the coil as dictated by the size, inductance, Q of the coil and remaining length of the antenna radiator beyond the coil. See the Cosine formula in ON4UN's book.

<<In RF circuits, but not in the antenna loading coil!!! MEASURE IT!>>
>>I have. Probably many dozens of times in antennas. I used real current meters, not neon bulbs. Neon bulbs do not measure anything, let alone current. They indicate and respond to voltage since the electric field ionizes the gas inside the bulb. You can also model this on any modeling program, and look at current distribution. <<

You measured and what were the results? Did you measure current in loading coils up higher than half of the radiator? Neon bulb was mentioned as an illustration, no need to harp on it. W9UCW measured it properly with instrumentation and found the current to be different between the top and bottom of the loading coil. Try it, you will see it too. Modeling programs do not include physical size of the coil, just the value of the inductor and there is your problem, ignoring reality that modeling program doesn't capture.

>>We normally measured current in NDB tranmitters for airport beacons. On the antenna side of the loading coil, we measured exactly the same current (within the limits of the meter) as on the transmitter side of the loading coil.
Ask any VLF operator using short antenna how much current he reads between the loading coil and the antenna. <<

Base loaded? You will not see much difference there, see cosine law.

<<Coil is the part of the radiator. All textbooks show that. Look at page 9-34, Fig. 9-40 in ON4UN's Low Band DXing 3rd Edition. You would see that short vertical with loading coil has a different value of the current at the bottom and different (less) at the top of the coil.>>
>>I just looked at that, and you are right. John is incorrect, and I'll bring it to his attention. Thanks for pointing that out. <<

Don't bother, he is right and you are wrong.

>>The CORRECT current distribution is shown in the ARRL Antenna Handbook in 16-6 figure 9 of the 18th Edition. They also explain it correctly. You can also find it in Termin's biook, Radio Engineers Handbook in the chapter on antennas page 795 figure 28 of the his First Edition.
So there are three references, and all are good reliable books written and peer reviewed by more than one person. So it is not one person's "word" or idea. There also are the models, that most people can do on a computer. <<

MEASURE IT! In shortened antenna with loading coil 2/3 up.

>>The rule is this, a 10-foot tall whip loaded with a coil at the base actually has MORE current at the base into the WHIP then when center or top loaded when it radiates the same amount of power. This extra current is what causes the additional ground losses. <<

Base loaded, close. That's why their performance sucks compare to top loaded or with loading coil 2/3s up the antenna. Measure IT!

>>The Antenna Handbook and other commercial texts are right on, and anyone who has ever measured systems with physically small loading coils (compared to the length of the antenna) knows this. <<

Just like Earth "is" flat. But there seems to be a wind of change creeping into your argument by including "physically small loading coils" now.
Take the MFJ current meter and measure the current on 80m Hustler coil just below and above the coil. See what you get.
Time to "update" your web page article and start preaching the real truth and facts.

>>73 Tom

73 Yuri, K3BU/m, VE3BMV/m, VE1BY/m
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

It appears you have your mind made up that the ARRL Handbooks, Jasik's book Antennas, Terman's Radio Engineers Handbook, conventional circuit theory books, EZNEC and other NEC based programs, and even most antenna current meters in the world are wrong.

I certainly can't argue with anyone who's mind is so firmly made up that nothing else matters.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree like the gentlemen we are.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 11, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom,
it is not a matter of making up one's mind, it is matter of facts, reality and truth.

Why don't you measure current on say Hustler mobile antenna with 80m loading coil and see if you get the SAME current below and above the loading coil? You claim to make so many measurements and with right instruments, why don't you do one more and tell us what it is?

Can you show file for EZNEC or others of L loaded antenna with physical dimensions of loading coil (length to diameter ratio) included in definition?

Claiming that Jasik, Terman et al, "show" that you are right doesn't make you right. I can't see mention of current distribution in loading coils of short antennas in the books you cite (I have newer editions). Just MEASURE IT and you will see the REALITY and not opinion or made up mind. Very simple! Time to acknowledge facts and drop "convictions".

73 Yuri, K3BUm
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<it is not a matter of making up one's mind, it is matter of facts, reality and truth.>>

So we are supposed to believe an inductor magically stops working like it does in one circuit, when placed in another circuit and is suddenly allowed to violate all the rules components follow, and no one except a handful of Hams knows this.

<<Why don't you measure current on say Hustler mobile antenna with 80m loading coil and see if you get the SAME current below and above the loading coil? You claim to make so many measurements and with right instruments, why don't you do one more and tell us what it is>>

I've already measured many dozens of antenna systems, and they have essentiually equal currents as long as the coil is physically short compared to the antenna length. I told you that at the very beginning. Why should I measure one more specific system?

The Hustler antenna has almost NO whip above the coil. The coil is PHYSICALLY somewhat long compared to the whip, and has a HUGE capacitance at the end cap of the KW resonators.

The long coil compared to stinger length and the high shunt capacitance at the upper end of the coil caused by poor coil design allow current to decrease in the Hustler coil because:

1.) The coil is a significant part of the antenna length beyond the coil.

2.) The end cap has capacitance and that provides a path for displacement currents.

Without substantial undesirable displacement currents from poor loading coil design, the current into an loading inductor always substantially equals the current out. There has to be a third unwanted path for currents, Kirchoff's laws work in every system. That's why we don't call them "Kirchoff's suggestion".

<<Can you show file for EZNEC or others of L loaded antenna with physical dimensions of loading coil (length to diameter ratio) included in definition?>>

I can easily include coil length, but NEC has a problem with stepped dimensions. It can all be modeled with care, however.

<Claiming that Jasik, Terman et al, "show" that you are right doesn't make you right. I can't see mention of current distribution in loading coils of short antennas in the books you cite (I have newer editions).>

Then you are overlooking it.

It is really a very basic fundamental rule of electronics. Current is ALWAYS the same in a series system unless there is a shunt path to divert current. In an antenna or transmission line with standing waves, the current diversion comes from displacement currents caused by distributed capacitance.

The same applies to a loading coil. Unless it has substantial capacitance to the outside world compared to the rest of the antenna above the coil, current is essentially EQUAL at both ends. It is not high in the first few turns, as Barry incorrectly claims and you repeat.

In order for a loading coil to have appreciable current taper, it would have to be physically long compared to the antenna above the coil so that its capacitance to the outside world was comparable to the input capacitance of the antenna section above the coil.

A helical antenna is one example of this. The long slender coil has so much stray capacitance it has a definite current taper along its length. It is also a POOR inductor, and has poorer efficiency (examples are Hamsticks and Outbackers) compared to antennas withproper inductors like the Bugcatcher, which has almost perfectly equal currents at each end.

This is all really pretty basic, and doesn't break any rules. The current taper has nothing to do with "electrical degrees" the coil replaces, it is a function of extremely poor loading coil form factor.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom,
More smoke and mirrors, Eh?

Take Hustler 80m "regular" resonator, add CB longer whip and MEASURE IT!!!
Let us know what is the difference between the current at the bottom and top of the loading coil. One more measurement please?

Show us the file in EZNEC demonstrating what you are claiming.

Loading coil in the shortened antenna radiator is part of the radiator, has distributed capacitance vs. surroundings and the current in the coil decreases with distance from the feed point. This is physics and FACT. No amount of your mumbo-jumbo will change that.
MEASURE IT! It's there for anyone to see.

No amount of your "reasoning" will change the FACTS. Spreading misinformation doesn't do any good to ham or professional community. W9UCW is working on publication sheding some light on the "problem".

MEASURE IT!

73 Yuri
 
In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by FJGH on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What is the point to all this theory bashing? Trying to determine the exact analysis of this subject on an internet forum is kinda like a big waste of time for most who are reading it. Practical and usefull recommendations probably would be more valuable.
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>What is the point to all this theory bashing? Trying to determine the exact analysis of this subject on an internet forum is kinda like a big waste of time for most who are reading it. Practical and usefull recommendations probably would be more valuable. <<

Practical and usefull recommendations were posted by me, W8JI questioned it and tried to show that I was wrong based on his "rules". He has a web page propagating wrong information.

The significance of the subject is that having loading coils made of heavy wire or tubing does not contribute much to the performance of the mobile antenna. It is more important to have top loading hat or have a coil at about 2/3 up in the vertical radiator. We are talking about 10s of dB difference and that is significant, especially on low bands.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 12, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<<The significance of the subject is that having loading coils made of heavy wire or tubing does not contribute much to the performance of the mobile antenna. It is more important to have top loading hat or have a coil at about 2/3 up in the vertical radiator. We are talking about 10s of dB difference and that is significant, especially on low bands.>>>


Having measured all this several times, I can give an answer. The real reason the size of wire does not matter a great deal is:

1.) The Q can be around 300 or more even with airdux or miniductor. Going to copper tubing, even if you do it correct, will only result in doubling or tripling the Q. This is only a few ohms change in resistance

2.) The ground losses are about 25 ohms on 160 meters even in my full-size long bed pickup truck. Changing the coila few ohms means nothing when compared to the large ground loss.

3.) Using a hat (especially) and/or mounting the coil way up high can nearly quadruple the radiation resistance over a base loaded antenna. Efficiency goes up about trhe same number of times when the ground loss is so very high.

The fact large diameter conductors don't help has nothing to do with the current dropping off in the coil. It is the change in radiation resisatnce while the loss resistance is about constant (because of the high ground losses) that makes it behave like that.

Behavior is very different over a very good ground. In that case top loading doesn't do much at all, and coil Q has a larger effect because it is the dominant loss.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by VE3EGA on August 13, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To the 'anonymous' poster....

Have you ever heard the expression "if you cant say anything nice, then dont say it at all!"

If you have a personal 'grief' with Alan, take it up with him directly, not in such a cowardly and anonymous way, man, have you no respect for yourself? - remember we dont need LIDS on here as well as on the air!

Alan, a great article for those of us who can read and understand the content - keep 'em coming!

73 de Terry ve3ega/va3ip

 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K0BG on August 13, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To Terry ve3ega: The anonymous poster originally had his call posted, but I assume it was removed at his request because someone bootlegged his call with the symbol (`) in front of it. The post was none other than WA8KJP, our resident curmudgeon.

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC7YRN on August 14, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What does a top hat do to losses?

Does it matter? I'm guessing not, compared to the dramatic win in increasing radiation resistance.

The schematic showing a model of the equivalent circuit of a mobile antenna explained how stray capacitance causes losses. Did I understand W8JI correctly that it should show a distributed RC network along the radiating part of the antenna?
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<What does a tophat have to do with losses?>

I explain this with examples and models at:
http://www.w8ji.com/mobile_and_loaded_antenna.htm


1.) The hat reduces resistance of the loading coil, if installed correctly, for a given Q. That's assuming it is installed correctly and not jammed up against the coil.

2.) The hat also reduces power loss because it makes current in the antenna more uniform below the hat. Current distribution controls radiation resistance, it has nothing to do with how many "electrical degrees" the hat makes the antenna "look like" at some higher frequency. In a short monopole radiation resistance is controlled by the shape of the current distribution and physical length of the spatial area current is distributed over. It is ampere/feet, not "electrical length" that matters.

A uniform cross section slender whip has 1/4 the radiation resistance of the same size whip with all the capacitance at the very top. This regardless of where the coil is located in the system.

With everything else constant, efficiency goes up by a factor of 4 when a large hat is installed at the very top(6dB would be the maximum with a lossy ground system, it would be LESS as the ground system gets better) of a slender short radiator.

<Does it matter? I'm guessing not, compared to the dramatic win in increasing radiation resistance.>

That's right!!

When the system has high ground losses, like a mobile on low bands, coil resistance of any reasonable loading coil means very little. That's because on 160m you have 20-30 ohms of ground resistance, so what difference does it make if loading coil resistance changes + or - 2 ohms?

On the other hand the hat increases Rr (when installed properly, near the end of the antenna) and lowers the current required to generate the same radiated power. The lower current (for a given radiated power)reduces loss in the distributed ground loss resistance, and even in the coil. That is primarily why a hat helps. At the same time bandwidth will increase, and that is an additional bonus.

<The schematic showing a model of the equivalent circuit of a mobile antenna explained how stray capacitance causes losses. Did I understand W8JI correctly that it should show a distributed RC network along the radiating part of the antenna?>

Absolutely. The model is oversimplified, and as such it gives INCORRECT answers. Radiation resistance is distributed throughout the length of the antenna, it is NOT all lumped at the end. Some Rr is distributed below the coil, a tiny bit distributed in the coil, and some distributed above the coil.

If you add shunt capacitance down low, it does not increase loss any measurable amount!! It basically doesn't change a thing, except feedpoint impedance.

If you add shunt C just above a low-mounted coil, it increases current through the lossy coil and increases losses. If you add capacitance up high, ALL of the Rr has more current and so efficiency increases. It takes less current to radiate the same power.

The model shown would ONLY work if the coil was mounted in the trunk, because it shows all Rr above the coil!

By the way, the normally very SMALL taper in current in the coil has to do with physical coil length and how shunt capacitance out to the vehicle or area around the vehicle is distributed along the length of the loading coil. In a well-designed system, the current is almost perfectly uniform. It is only when coil capacitance to the outside world is very high and the antenna above the coil very small that current taper is clearly measureable.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC7YRN on August 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks, Tom. This is all fascinating -- it seems like to analyze the system you absolutely have to treat it as a unit instead of taking it a piece at a time.

I admit to being unclear on one point:
"1.) The hat reduces resistance of the loading coil, if installed correctly, for a given Q. "

Did you mean
A. "reduces resistive losses through the same coil due to a more uniform current distribution",
B. "With Q held constant, allows the designer to substitute a coil with less reactance and therefore less resistance",
C. something similar to A or B, but more accurately phrased, or
D. something else altogether?

Also, are the various arguments obscuring a consensus that capacitance between the loading coil and the vehicle body is a Bad Thing, and that system design should avoid close distances and high dielectric constants between the coil and the vehicle?
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KK7EM on August 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I enjoyed the article on mobile antennas. One individual indicated they knew of a way to interface the ATAS-100 to an ICOM 706 for about $10. Can anyone tell me how to do this? Thanks!
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KC7YRN on August 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Is it this one?

http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/projects/ATAS100/ATASControl.html
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

<<like to analyze the system you absolutely have to treat it as a unit instead of taking it a piece at a time.>>

We can analyze it one piece at a time, the pieces just have to be correct...and enough pieces to represent the real world. Looking at only one piece or an over simplified model will get us into trouble!

<<I admit to being unclear on one point:
"1.) The hat reduces resistance of the loading coil, if installed correctly, for a given Q. ">>

Because the hat increases capacitance, it decreases capacitive reactance.

Because the capacitive reactance decreases, the compensating inductive reactance required (the loading coil) decreases.

Since ESR (equivalent series resistance)is XL/Q, adding a hat (above the loading coil some distance)decreases coil resistance when Q is about the same.

A coil with a fixed Q of 300 with 400 ohms reactance has an ESR of 400/300= 1.33 ohms. If adding a hat causes the system to require 200 ohms XL for resonance, and Q is the same, ESR would drop to 200/300 = .67 ohms.

This is a tiny change in system loss resistance when the ground loss is 5-30 ohms, as it is in virtually any mobile on 40 meters and lower. This is also why doubling Q doesn't do much when the rest of the system is lossy.

The largest beneficial change is in radiation resistance, where it can be as much as 6dB signal improvement in changed radiation resistance alone! This of course would only be achieved if the hat was at the very top, and the coil was someplace very much lower.

<<Also, are the various arguments obscuring a consensus that capacitance between the loading coil and the vehicle body is a Bad Thing, and that system design should avoid close distances and high dielectric constants between the coil and the vehicle?>>

Absolutely. For a given radiated power level any capacitance directly between the coil and chassis or from end-to-end in the loading coil increases current in the coil, without increasing current in the radiator above the coil. It also can reduce feedpoint impedance, and almost always decreases bandwidth.

The destructive capaciatnce has to be either directly across the coil (from turn-to-turn or end-to-end) or from the UPPER area of the coil to the chassis. Stray capacitance at the feedpoint end does almost nothing to increase loss, because voltage is not high. Without high voltage (strong electric fields) we can't have high displacement currents. That's why a very simple model is incorrect. A correct model would show capacitance at several places, and radiation resistance distributed at several places.

To have the correct answer, the model has to correctly show WHERE the capacitance is added in relationship to voltage and dissipative resistances.

73 Tom

 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom, W8JI first writes:

>>This is in any book, including the ARRL Handbook. If you look at HOW an inductor works, the current flowing in one terminal ALWAYS equals the current flowing out the other terminal.
THE VOLTAGE can be (and is) different on each end of the inductor, NOT the current. <<


and then later after some arguments, ALLOWS "SMALL" change:

>>By the way, the normally very SMALL taper in current in the coil has to do with physical coil length and how shunt capacitance out to the vehicle or area around the vehicle is distributed along the length of the loading coil. In a well-designed system, the current is almost perfectly uniform. It is only when coil capacitance to the outside world is very high and the antenna above the coil very small that current taper is clearly measurable <<

Here we go again Tom? First arguing and trying to make someone look like a fool, because you are "right," then, after some arguments, realizing that maybe things are not as you know or see it. Then we get some mumbo-jumbo. Then becoming "guru" on the subject.
Real man would admit error or mistake or lack of knowledge, would give credit where it is due or heaven forbid apologize?
Did you measure currents below and above loading coil on 80m Hustler? What is it (equal)? Can you show EZNEC file demonstrating your "equal current in the coil"?
So now you would admit that there is a "small" difference? I bet this difference would grow with time as you will become an "expert" on yet another subject.
Nice going!

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Yuri,

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

1.) An ideal inductor has exactly equal currents at each end. This is true for ANY two terminal device, and Kirchoff's laws make that clear. The Handbooks have that correct, inductors (as with any component) do not have dissimilar currents at each terminal.

2.) In a normal mobile or home antenna with even a somewhat reasonable loading coil design, the current is immeasurably different at each end. For all practical purposes, it is identical because a common properly working current meter would never resolve the difference.

3.) If the inductor has about as much distributed stray capacitance to ground as the entire antenna above the inductor has, there will be a few percent taper in inductor current. This is because the stray capacitance forms a "virtual" third terminal, allowing small displacement currents to flow.

4.) The reason loading coil Q does not often make a large difference is because of ground losses, not because "only the first few turns have high current". Changing one loss by a few ohms means almost nothing when other losses represent 10 ohms or more.

5.) The reason a capacitance hat makes a difference is because it changes radiation resistance by as much as four times. It would make the system up to 6dB better with no other changes if the hat is mounted right at the top.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The only way you can clear "misunderstanding" is if you provide figures that you measured on the coil of 80m Hustler mobile antenna (easy for others to replicate or verify) and provide EZNEC file showing that current is the same at both ends as you claimed. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors to dance your way out of being wrong.
Surely you can make one more measurement, or you already did and it doesn't jive with your "theory"?

73 Yuri
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

Thanks for your "suggestion" I make more measurements or use models, but I already have measurements and models at:

http://www.w8ji.com/mobile_and_loaded_antenna.htm

and related pages. I also gave some reference textbooks.

Where can I find yours???

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by AA1NZ on August 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This has been a very interesting discussion following the article. I am especially interested in measuring the currents both above and below the loading coil, and would like to find a simple method using readily available, non-complex equipment. Any suggestions ?
Thanks gang...
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Simplest way of checking the difference in current through the loading coil is to transmit for about 20 - 30 seconds into say Hustler regular 80m resonator with 100W. Then check the temperature at the bottom, middle and top of the coil. You would see that bottom is warmest, center less warm and top even less. This indicates, assuming the same type/diameter wire, that current is greater at the bottom of the coil - greatest loss in heat due to highest current. If you run about 500W into low power resonator, you would see your heatshrink tubing starting to buckle and melt from the bottom. (Done it :-) You can also use thermal strip thermometer or infrared one.

Otherwise, if you have thermocouple based RF meters, you can stick one at the bottom, one at the top and see what they show. You would see more difference than W8JI seems to "find".

The problem with measuring the RF current in the antenna and loading coil is that proximity of anything metallic (probe with leads, etc.) detunes the antenna and causes erroneous readings. So you need something physically small and non-conductive that does not significantly detune the antenna along the measured area. Quarter wave whip is more sensitive for detuning towards the top.

The latest from W8JI is: The current across the coil is the same, but (now) sometimes isn't. Take your pick. But anyone with simple sense of touch can verify that there is quite a bit of difference. His EZNEC modeling does not properly accommodate physical size of the coil and therefore his 3 decimal place "accuracy" is way off.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by AA1NZ on August 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for the suggestions Yuri. I have several RF ammeters ( thermocouple type), but can only figure one way to put them in series with elements of the antenna. At the feedpoint, I don't expect insertion to cause as much inaccuracy as trying to put it near or above the coil. Are there any tiny metering devices you know of? I'm not too concerned with testing a Hustler 80M coil because of what I believe to be pretty high coil (hence heat)losses in this design. I had in mind something more efficient and better designed like a bugcatcher loading coil or my hi-q 4 incher. I do have an infrared thermometer ( with laser aiming dot), and was hoping to find some sort of very small thermal device that I could series in the circuit and calculate current from temperature. I guess actual temp would tell me what I need to know--I really don't need to know the exact units in amperes--just how much heat (power) is in a practically lossless (whip / mast) part of the antenna, and how it compares to each section. I don't mind cutting masts or whips if I can answer my questions. I'm not quite yet ready to buy the neon light as a current indication theory, tho. Hence my reason for wanting to measure current. This give you any new ideas or suggestions ?? Sorry to be so long winded, but I think a measurement procedure may answer questions for many others as well. 73, Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
There is a practical side, and there is a nit picking side to the "problem" of efficient mobile antenna. The real net indicator of any effort to improve efficiency is to measure the signal strength. In order to verify that indeed current in the loading coil is maximum at the bottom end and it tapers towards the top end, the simple "temperature" test or measurement with RF ammeters is sufficient. Barry, W9UCW has done extensive testing and optimization on mobile antennas and Minooka Special (loaded low band vertical used by many top band expeditions) and showed that Q is not that important and that the current is diminishing across the coil. This allows some "economizing" especially on 160 and 80 coils, where they can be made of perhaps two wire diameters, in order to minimize the wind load.

So far the best recipe for efficient mobile antenna is to try to use maximum top loading hat or wires you can stand (or longest whip), use maximum (road to top 13'6") mast, have loading coil about 2/3 up the mast, use heavy enough wire to minimize I2R losses, have efficient matching at the base and biggest mother car (old sedan) you can have. Any other compromises will eat dBs quite rapidly.

I had very good success with using guy wire going to the front bumper mast as a top loading, I could use 80m coil and about 10ft of wire to resonate it on 160m. I use Hustler resonators, stripped the original wire, made coils of copper tubing or #12 wire and used CB whips to maintain 13'6" max height. Coils are clamped to resonator flanges with hose clamps, which allows easy insertion of RF ammeter (first at the bottom, then flip the coil around). They hardly get warm running 600W. I am sprucing my 72 Buick and redoing some antennas, so it should be more efficient and more ugly :-)
Time permitting I will try to have detailed description on the web page.

73 and GL Yuri
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<This has been a very interesting discussion following the article. I am especially interested in measuring the currents both above and below the loading coil, and would like to find a simple method using readily available, non-complex equipment. Any suggestions ?>>

There are all sorts of incorrect suggestions of how to measure current (to prove or disprove something all peer-reviewed textbooks agree on), with most of the "Intenet Ideas" NOT having much to do with current and some certainly nothing to do with a "measurement" becuase they give no quantity!

It almost seems silly to have to say this, but in order to measure current you have to measure the current! You can not measure voltage or heat to determine current.

We can NOT use most simple clamp-on current meters, and certainly can not use rod-type current meters, near a loading coil. The measurement device must not be influenced by external magnetic or electric fields, and it must not significantly perturb the system by adding significant capacitance or inductance.

Remember your are trying to measure a SMALL difference in a normal, well-constructed, compact, loading coil.

The best way to measure the system is to use two small identical therocouple current meters. The antenna is cut and insulated where the meters are installed. Theormocouple meters generally are non-responsive to electric and magnetic fields.

73 Tom


 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

If you disagree maybe you can logically explain WHY the current diminshes, or logically and calmly explain why you disagree.

>>Simplest way of checking the difference in current through the loading coil is to transmit for about 20 - 30 seconds into say Hustler regular 80m resonator with 100W. Then check the temperature at the bottom, middle and top of the coil. You would see that bottom is warmest, center less warm and top even less. This indicates, assuming the same type/diameter wire, that current is greater at the bottom of the coil - greatest loss in heat due to highest current.>>

That does not measure current. It indicates temperature, which has a great deal to do with complex thermal effects.

Thermal effects aside, losses can be VERY unevenly distributed in a coil where current flowing into and out of the coil is uniform.

Effects like end-capacitance and shorted turn effects can cause some areas of a coil have more loss and more heat. Hustler coils are especially poor loading coils. They use close-wound enamelled (or worse yet Litz) wire, have large metal end caps jammed up against the wire, and have a phenolic (paper) form with a vinal covering that not only is a lossy dielectric but traps water!

> If you run about 500W into low power resonator, you would see your heatshrink tubing starting to buckle and melt from the bottom. (Done it :-) You can also use thermal strip thermometer or infrared one.>

How does that measure current?

<Otherwise, if you have thermocouple based RF meters, you can stick one at the bottom, one at the top and see what they show. You would see more difference than W8JI seems to "find".>

How do you know that, if you have not done that?

<<The latest from W8JI is: The current across the coil is the same, but (now) sometimes isn't. Take your pick. But anyone with simple sense of touch can verify that there is quite a bit of difference. His EZNEC modeling does not properly accommodate physical size of the coil and therefore his 3 decimal place "accuracy" is way off.>>

I've measured hundreds or thousands of inductors in my life, all with very accurate test methods. I've serviced antennas, designed antennas, and measured antennas for the last 30 years. Eznec and P-Spice are good tools people without proper test equipment can use, or that anyone can use to observe things that are very difficult to measure. I've confirmed the models to be within a few percent.

If loading coils work the way you claim, we would be in trouble. All of the rules we follow in designing circuits would have to be rewritten.

Kirchoff was not a "fool" when he defined that all current flowing INTO one terminal of a two terminal component must flow out the other. Every component behaves that way.

The only "additional path" for current in a coil (or other componet)is via capacitance to the world OUTSIDE. That path could provide displacement currents. They would be proportional to the capacitive reactance and voltage difference across that capacitance, following more very clear well defined rules or "laws".

At the very bottom of the loading coil, voltage and current are in phase so voltage is low. Voltage is maximum at the very TOP of the coil, so that is where capacitance has the largest effect. It is sheer nonsense to think the first few turns have all the current, when that current has nowhere to go but up the coil! Current and voltage can be any proportion compared to power in a reactive system. We can have 10000 volts with 5 amps, even with a 100 watt transmitter, when the system has high power factor. What happens is voltage increases as we move up the coil, even when current remains the same.

The current division at any point is proportional to the ratio of impedances terminating that point. In order for MOST of the current to not flow into the whip above the coil, the capacitance of the coil to the vehicle has to be MUCH higher than the capacitance of the whip above the coil. And this all deals with the area well beyond the starting point in the, because there is very little voltage available at the coil bottom to cause displacement current to flow in the very small coil to vehicle capacitance.

I have a spice model of this at:

http://www.w8ji.com/inductor_spice_model.htm

It even shows voltages.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
>>If you disagree maybe you can logically explain WHY the current diminishes, or logically and calmly explain why you disagree. <<

OK, one more lesson.
If you look at any illustration showing vertical antenna working against the ground plane (counterpoise, radials) you see illustration of little capacitors going from points along the radiator following the arc to the ground plane. That is called distributed capacitance between points along the radiator against the ground plane. As we progress from the base of the antenna towards the tip, current in the radiator decreases from max at the base to min or almost zero at the tip. If we insert the coil of practical (non zero) length in the radiator, that coil, being part of the RADIATOR, behaves partially as an inductor and partially as a segment of radiator [suggestions for modeling are to use cylinder of the same physical properties (W7EL) or break it to more segments/inductances (N7WS)]. Just like in the portion of the radiator that coil "replaces", the current will be diminishing towards the tip. Loading coil placed further away from the feedpoint, the more pronounced this effect (Cosine law). So assuming the coil is made of the same diameter wire and has physical length greater than zero, due to distributed capacitance, the current will be diminishing towards the tip (it radiates too, some current is "lost" due to radiation).

As far as using touch or thermometers to check the current in the coil, it works like this. Assuming coil is uniform, close wound, same wire (Hustler 80m coil). Case one, current is the same across the coil (W8JI circuits) - I2R losses will be evenly (within reason) distributed across the coil, coil would heat up more less evenly. Case two, current is not the same across the coil (as in loading coil in antennas) - I2R losses will be greater where the current is higher (base of coil) and wire will be warmer in that area (I is greater, R is the same, wire). Note that this type of testing should be done starting with cool coil, short transmit time (say 20 secs.) and checking the temperature immediately after stopping to transmit. Otherwise thermal conductivity of the wire will tend to equalize the temperatures. Even by touching the coil with finger, one can tell appreciable difference in temperature between the bottom, center and top of the coil. This demonstrates that there IS DIFFERENT CURRENT flowing across the loading coil. End effects of caps are the same at both ends, coil form material is the same, other factors are negligible compare to effects from the uneven current distribution.

The best way to measure the current (to 3 decimal places) in the system is to use two thermocouple RF ammeters, one at the top and at the bottom of the coil, as I described earlier. This demonstrates instantaneous current at any time without major disturbance to the antenna.


>>If loading coils work the way you claim, we would be in trouble. All of the rules we follow in designing circuits would have to be rewritten. <<

You still don't get it? I rest my case.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
>>If you disagree maybe you can logically explain WHY the current diminishes, or logically and calmly explain why you disagree. <<

OK, one more lesson.
If you look at any illustration showing vertical antenna working against the ground plane (counterpoise, radials) you see illustration of little capacitors going from points along the radiator following the arc to the ground plane. That is called distributed capacitance between points along the radiator against the ground plane. As we progress from the base of the antenna towards the tip, current in the radiator decreases from max at the base to min or almost zero at the tip. If we insert the coil of practical (non zero) length in the radiator, that coil, being part of the RADIATOR, behaves partially as an inductor and partially as a segment of radiator [suggestions for modeling are to use cylinder of the same physical properties (W7EL) or break it to more segments/inductances (N7WS)]. Just like in the portion of the radiator that coil "replaces", the current will be diminishing towards the tip. Loading coil placed further away from the feedpoint, the more pronounced this effect (Cosine law). So assuming the coil is made of the same diameter wire and has physical length greater than zero, due to distributed capacitance, the current will be diminishing towards the tip (it radiates too, some current is "lost" due to radiation).

As far as using touch or thermometers to check the current in the coil, it works like this. Assuming coil is uniform, close wound, same wire (Hustler 80m coil).
Case one, current is the same across the coil (W8JI circuits) - I2R losses will be evenly (within reason) distributed across the coil, coil would heat up more less evenly.
Case two, current is not the same across the coil (as in loading coil in antennas) - I2R losses will be greater where the current is higher (base of coil) and wire will be warmer in that area (I is greater, R is the same, wire).
Note that this type of testing should be done starting with cool coil, short transmit time (say 20 secs.) and checking the temperature immediately after stopping to transmit. Otherwise thermal conductivity of the wire will tend to equalize the temperatures. Even by touching the coil with finger, one can tell appreciable difference in temperature between the bottom, center and top of the coil. This demonstrates that there IS DIFFERENT CURRENT flowing across the loading coil. End effects of caps are the same at both ends, coil form material is the same, other factors are negligible compare to effects from the uneven current distribution.

The best way to measure the current (to 3 decimal places) in the system is to use two thermocouple RF ammeters, one at the top and at the bottom of the coil, as I described earlier. This demonstrates instantaneous current at any time without major disturbance to the antenna.


>>If loading coils work the way you claim, we would be in trouble. All of the rules we follow in designing circuits would have to be rewritten. <<

You still don't get it? I rest my case.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI writes:
>>There are all sorts of incorrect suggestions of how to measure current (to prove or disprove something all peer-reviewed textbooks agree on), with most of the "Intenet Ideas" NOT having much to do with current and some certainly nothing to do with a "measurement" becuase they give no quantity!
It almost seems silly to have to say this, but in order to measure current you have to measure the current! You can not measure voltage or heat to determine current. <<

Silly?
How does the thermocouple current Ampere meter work? There are numerous examples how we can measure or calculate one parameter by measuring another parameter. For example power, measure voltage and current and you can calculate (measure) power, if you don't have power meter. There are many examples of similar situations in peer reviewed textbooks. Incidentally, precise power measurements and calibration (of wattmeters) is done by calorimeters where you measure amount of heat (difference in temperatures over time) that current in the load resistance generates.
Quantity could be: Hot , Warm, Cold, or number to n-decimal places. For various situations, various "precisions" can be sufficient.

Believe what you want, but it may not be reality.

73 Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

At the very start you said:

"Wire or tubing should be rated to carry the power without melting the coil. Q of the coil is not that important, coil in this situation is the part of the radiating element,****most of the current is at the base of the coil****and surprisingly Q or form factor is not THAT important as measured and verified experimentally by W9UCW."

To which my very first response was:

"The rule is this:
Coil current is essentially equal at both ends, as long as the coil is not long compared to the length of the antenna."

I'm glad to see we both finally agree coil physical length compared to antenna length is important!

Unfortunately your idea loading coil Q is not important because of very large current taper is not correct. The actual reason Q is not terribly important is because other system losses are so large that the coil resistance makes very little difference unless the coil is very poor.

Maybe in a month we will also agree on that.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on August 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom W8JI writes:
>>I'm glad to see we both finally agree coil physical length compared to antenna length is important! <<

Nice try (again)! You are disagreeing with yourself now. Argument is that in antenna loading coil the current is not the same at the beginning and end of the loading coil (unless its physical length is zero). You claim with your peer reviewed books that it is. Have a balls and admit that you were wrong. This is not getting amusing.

>>Unfortunately your idea loading coil Q is not important because of very large current taper is not correct. <<

Don't put words in my mouth.

>>Maybe in a month we will also agree on that. <<

Maybe you will agree with me later, as it has happened before. See the argument about low dipoles on 160 and other subjects when you were wrong and then with time came around and now you are the "expert" on the subject. It is admirable for person to learn, but mocking someone who is right and then later coming around and pretending that it is "his" idea is pathetic.

I apologize to the readers for stretching this so far, but this is about 5th time with W8JI (when he was wrong and argued).

Yuri, K3BU/m
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by W8JI on August 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Yuri,

It seems you are saying coil construction is not critical because most of the current is in the first few turns. When I try to say "no, it doesn't work that way" you assume I am saying the current is always exactly equal.

It is exactly equal in a two terminal component, and in a typical reasonably mounted and constructed loading coil there is only a modest current reduction at best. Those cases are ONLY when the capacitance above the coil is very small compared to the capacitance from the UPPER area of the coil to the vehicle chassis or earth around the vehicle.

If a substantial whip or hat is involved, current as far as we could ever tell would be equal. That's why I keep saying "essentially" equal.

The first current measurement device you offered, using a neon bulb, was not valid. A neon bulb responds to the electric field, not current. This isn't meant to be an insult, a neon bulb held near a conductor just isn't a valid way to measure current. No reason to get upset about it!

The second was heat. In order for heat to be valid, thermal conductivity must be known to be constant. Electrical conductivity must also be constant at all points. Neither is true in a typical inductor, as a matter of fact it would actually be VERY difficult to make one have evenly distributed conductivity except at very low frequencies or DC.

The argument "meters use theromocouples" and "power can be measured with caloric standards" doesn't apply to this case, because the loading coil neither has controlled uniform heat loss from all areas nor does it have uniform loss in all areas. Simply having the same wire size does not work when the wire is near other metal and covered in and wound over poor dielectrics, and stuffed up against metal disks. Caloric standards are not a piece of something hanging in open air, measured by watching something with unknown thermal response split open. Caloric standards, like thermocouple current meters, are very carefully designed and controlled devices.

There really isn't any reason to get so upset, I'm just trying to make the point that in order to measure and quantify something we actually have to measure what we want to know. We can not look at heatshrink splitting and assume it proves anything about current. We also can not use a neon bulb to indicate current in by moving it around a loading coil.

Please don't take this to be nasty or insulting. It's just the way it works.

73 Tom
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on September 14, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>>Tom, W8JI writes<<

>>It is exactly equal in a two terminal component, and in a typical reasonably mounted and constructed loading coil there is only a modest current reduction at best. Those cases are ONLY when the capacitance above the coil is very small compared to the capacitance from the UPPER area of the coil to the vehicle chassis or earth around the vehicle.
If a substantial whip or hat is involved, current as far as we could ever tell would be equal. That's why I keep saying "essentially" equal. <<

Would 30 - 60% reduction according to you be "essentially equal" current? Are you inserting now qualifiers to show that you were right all along? Nice try! Why don't you tell us what you measured on Hustler 80 or 40m coil? Oh, and from your web page showing EZNEC model, how did you get the current to increase from 1A at the base to over 1A towards the coil? Perpetual motion or energy generating antenna? And you measured the same thing? How?

>>The first current measurement device you offered, using a neon bulb, was not valid. A neon bulb responds to the electric field, not current. This isn't meant to be an insult, a neon bulb held near a conductor just isn't a valid way to measure current. No reason to get upset about it!<<

Don't put words in my mouth or make me look like an idiot. I mentioned it is an example, that neon bulb shows increasing voltage towards the tip, which indicates corresponding reduction of current along the radiator.

>>The second was heat. In order for heat to be valid, thermal conductivity must be known to be constant. Electrical conductivity must also be constant at all points. Neither is true in a typical inductor, as a matter of fact it would actually be VERY difficult to make one have evenly distributed conductivity except at very low frequencies or DC. <<

How does the electrical and thermal conductivity vary in an air wound cylindrical coil using the same material, wire and form diameter? VERY difficult?

>>The argument "meters use theromocouples" and "power can be measured with caloric standards" doesn't apply to this case, because the loading coil neither has controlled uniform heat loss from all areas nor does it have uniform loss in all areas. Simply having the same wire size does not work when the wire is near other metal and covered in and wound over poor dielectrics, and stuffed up against metal disks. Caloric standards are not a piece of something hanging in open air, measured by watching something with unknown thermal response split open. Caloric standards, like thermocouple current meters, are very carefully designed and controlled devices. <<

More BS, stand by for pictures showing the measuring setup, real thermocouple meters and values MEASURED on real coils and antennas, and not "figured" by you from "peer reviewed" books. Power lost = I2*R. If R is the same (which it is in air wound coil without your metal caps) then heat generated in resistance is proportional to the square of current. If the current is different at the base of the coil vs. the top, then the base would be warmer than the top and vice versa. Assuming the test is done quickly before thermal conductivity normalizes the temperature within the coil, anybody can see that bottom of the coil is warmer, therefore it carries more current than the top. Simple grade 5 physics.

>>There really isn't any reason to get so upset, I'm just trying to make the point that in order to measure and quantify something we actually have to measure what we want to know. We can not look at heatshrink splitting and assume it proves anything about current. We also can not use a neon bulb to indicate current in by moving it around a loading coil. <<

You can't upset me Tom, you are just sinking deeper and deeper, and looking more and more foolish. Your twisting of arguments and trying to weasel out, showing that you are "right", when you are wrong is just getting too much, too often. If you cannot understand that certain parameters can be measured and indicated indirectly, then I suggest you get some elementary books and refresh your knowledge.

>>Please don't take this to be nasty or insulting. It's just the way it works.<<

No, it is not the "way it works" and you can MEASURE it. Stand by for an article explaining the case and showing some pictures of REALITY and measured data.
What is insulting Tom, is your way of ridiculing the person who points out your wrong, then after some arguments going quiet for a while, and then emerging as a "guru" on subject, pretending that you "invented" the thing all along and preaching to the cult, without giving credit where is due. Time to grow up.
Watch for an article on loading coils on eHam.net showing where you went wrong and what the reality is.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by NOCODING on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Uh...

On the subject of Mobile Antenna...The article seemed to be geared toward a multiple band setup using one antenna...?

What if you are simple (in the mind maybe) and only want one good band...for example 2meter.

It seems a lot of the info (especially the last 100 pages of back and forth arguing) is for a large setup you can move, rather than a setup for a vehicle that is mobile while using it.

Thanks
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by K3BU on September 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The arguing applies mainly to low efficiency antennas, those loaded with coil or other means. The lower the frequency, more loading is needed, efficiency goes down rapidly and the coil "business" is important. It applies to all loaded antennas, in motion, etc.

As far as 2m or even down to 20m there is no problem, there is little loading and efficiency is good. When you get to 40m and lower, this is where efficiency suffers and it pays to know what contributes most to higher efficiency, low losses for best performance.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna':  
by KF8ZR on October 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Alan, enjoyed your article. I've been using the hustlers for years. I only use 10 meter mobile right now. I haven't set up anything else HF related in the truck in a long time. As far as "ain't no such animal" the title of the article is just that, a title. It's meant to give ideas on better antenna performance not meant to give animalistic ideals.
As far as becoming a CW/non-CW rant. This one wasn't about CW/non-CW it was about antennas.

Thanks for a great non animal related, non CW related article. Very good work!

>As far as the perfect mobile antenna, there ain't no >such animal. A 160, 80, and 40 meter mobile antenna >is a dummy load as far as I'm concerned. You can >spend all year optimizing an antenna for these bands >and you won't gain anything noticeable. I'll bet if >you dragged a 20' piece of wire behind your car it >wouldn't be any worse of an antenna. On 20 m or >higher, you might get into the 5 - 15 % efficiency >range. Better than nothing but perfect, I don't think >so.

 
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