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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
Steven E. Matda (KE4MOB)
on
August 29, 2003
View comments about this article!
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately (that can be a good thing or a bad thing--just ask my wife) about the debates that have raging here on eHam and other sites. Ham radio has a lot on its' plate right now... BPL is looming upon us, and the removal of the CW requirement is a hot topic right now amongst everyone. For the first time ever, we are simultaneously looking at the possibility of our demise and a major revision in the way we credential licensees.
Needless to say, our response to BPL and CW will set the tone for ham radio for the remainder of the century. Whether or not ham radio will live or die depends upon the next couple of years. Seventy years from now, will the new ham be able to look back on what we did and say "wow, those hams back then really did a good job" or will there even be new hams in 70 years? That's what is at stake, pure and simple.
We all have opinions, and opinions are as wide and varied as the topics that we debate. Debates become heated, tempers flare, and before you know it, what started out as a considerate debate about a topic that concerns us has deteriorated into a name-calling, mud-slinging frenzy that does nothing but to ignore the problem at hand and to further the interests of others who desire to see us gone. Oddly, it seems that the current batch of issues facing ham radio may actually be the beginning of the end... not because the issues themselves are insurmountable, but because the debate about the issues may cause such a degree of bloodletting from within our ranks that we may never recover. A "spontaneous combustion" if you will...maybe even call it an "issue-assisted" suicide.
So before you "go off" on somebody because you think their opinion is wrong and your opinion is right, remember that after this is all over, win or lose, we (as a group--not "me" or "you" as individuals) are going to have to pick up the pieces and move on. So let's turn down the rancor, not burn too many bridges, nor alienate groups of hams based on a so-called "label". After all, we are in this boat together and will have to pick up the microphone, key, or keyboard when this is all over and do what we do best... which is communicate with each other. The artificial wedges are being driven into the ham population as we speak and the splinter groups are starting to form. But remember the words of Abraham Lincoln: "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
In conclusion, it's time to start finding a middle ground. Ham radio is too important of an activity in each our lives to be sacrificed over something as petty as one's own ego.
President, Russell County (Va) ARC
http://www.youmax.com/rcarc
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K5MAR on August 29, 2003
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Well said, Steve! Another quote that's appropriate: "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately." (Benjamin Franklin) Too often today we see the attitude "It's not leaking at MY end of the boat, why should I bail?" The hams that elmered me back in the late 60's would be disgusted with the animosity in the ranks of amateur radio these days. Bicker among ourselves in private if we must, but it's time for ALL hams to close ranks and defend our hobby/pastime. We are sitting on top of some valuable spectrum, and we'll lose it if we are not vigorous in defending it. We can just as easily lose it to the liberals "for the greater good of all" as to the big business interests. These people don't care a whit what we are doing on what band in what mode, or what kind of tests we passed or where they were taken. To quote myself from Yahoo group posting "In this day and age, not only do you have to do a good job, you have to be seen to be doing a good job." We've got to convince people that our usage of the frequencies allocated to us is the best possible use. It's time to put our egos in the upright and locked position, there's bumpy weather ahead.
Mark Schneider - K5MAR
AEC, Payne County, Okla. ARES
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KE4ZHN on August 29, 2003
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Very well put Steve. I for one am sick of the infighting and mudslinging as well. A little debating is fine sometimes as none of us will agree 100% of the time. But, to have dozens of people get on here and other ham threads and engage in flame wars and toss insults at each other constantly is totally nonproductive and damaging to the hobby. If we let bpl and the cw debate destroy the common bond we all share, even if bpl doesnt come to pass, whats going to happen if hundreds of hams are all PO`ed at each other over flame wars online? I imagine the only communication youll hear on the air would be continuations of the same garbage except on phone instead of with text! The last thing amateur radio needs for the future of the hobby is hundreds of people in splinter groups tossing insults at each other and infighting till the FCC gets sick of hearing it and just sells off our spectrum. No matter what your opinions are, and there are many, we should try to remember that even if you totally disagree, the other guy has just as much right to his as you do your own. Thats what makes America a great country! Will there be ham radio 70 years from now? I honestly dont know because Im afraid I wont be around to find out, but I hope that future generations can enjoy this hobby. It would be a shame to see it all go down the tubes due to bpl or so much infighting it destroys the hobby and turns it into cb if it even exists at all. I think we can all benefit from just swallowing our pride a little and just being a bit more tolerant of the other guys opinion even if you think hes off the wall. We are all amateurs and share a common interest in radio. Why let the corporate entities and infighting win? Better to let our stubborn pride slide a little and just adapt to whatever happens. After thinking about all this fighting and bickering, I have changed my outlook and decided to just go with the flow and try to make the best of things however they may turn out. Ive been involved in radio for over half my life, and to just toss it aside and walk away from it would be like losing a good friend. Fighting wont make it any better no matter what happens anyway. If the FCC drops cw tomorrow, is the world going to end? Hardly. If bpl comes tomorow, will amateur radio be doomed? That remains to be seen. Personally, I feel that its too early to jump to conclusions at this stage of the game. None of this has come to pass as of yet. Its so far, nothing but speculation of the future, and that can be a dangerous thing for us all.
73 Rich KE4ZHN
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N8YV on August 29, 2003
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Perhaps the best way to handle the situation is to place every ham under arrest for animal abuse---after all, haven't we already beaten this horse enough?
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by DOODAH on August 29, 2003
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Us "no-coders" just want to get on with our HOBBY without all the bigoted attitudes coming from SOME pro-coders. Given the sheer volume of silly rubbish that comes our way, we'd have to be superhuman not to fight back!
Perhaps if the minority of rabid pro-coders would just leave us alone to enjoy our HOBBY, without trying to dictate what hoops we must jump through, these arguments wouldn't bring down the hobby.
I don't believe any of this will finish off ham radio though - it's WAY more resilient than that!
73
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KB9YUR on August 29, 2003
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Here we go again, and again, and again, and again. Apparently, some people have
way TOO MUCH time on their hands and need to get a life or maybe even a job.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VK3KCG on August 29, 2003
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Well said Steve.........
Would I be so bold to suggest that there has been some deliberate baiting from various interest groups that want to derail our efforts on BPL.
As for CW; it is just another mode; maybe we could test for proper pronunciation of the Queens English to allow the use of phone?
Bottom line is that we need more amateurs;(The larger the amount of votes, the bigger stick we wave).
Stick together; hold tight; support the ARRL so we can win this fight.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA4PTZ on August 29, 2003
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Steve,
The sky is not falling , the world is not coming to
an end. I have been a HAM for 27 years and many
debates have raged ,including the CW debate, and
GEE! HAM Radio is still here. You can ask those
even more senior to me, they had their debates as
well. Yes, It will change.
As will everything else on this planet. I can run
through my opinions on all the ills of the world
again but why ? HAM Radio will still exist.
I am sure that the quality will be deminished.
You see, Steve, greed is the root of all evil. As
long as mankind allows greed to control him, we are
doomed. But I seriously doubt that the planet will
self-destruct anytime soon, but I could be wrong.
73 and enjoy it while you can,
Tim
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG4YJQ on August 29, 2003
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Famous qoutes from so called ambassadors of amateur radio as seen by me here on eHam:
"Let's make the exams harder" = keep more people away.
"Your tech license means nothing, it's worthless" = run even more people off.
Yep, you OT's sure know how to make new people feel welcome.
73
Elaine
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by RADIO123US on August 29, 2003
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KG4YJQ said "Famous qoutes from so called ambassadors of amateur radio as seen by me here on eHam:
"Let's make the exams harder" = keep more people away.
"Your tech license means nothing, it's worthless" = run even more people off.
Yep, you OT's sure know how to make new people feel welcome."
This is very typical of the no-code mentality and one of the reason why alot of hams do not want to "compromise". To the no-coder "compromise" means "give me what I want or I will whine and complain until I get it".... Elaine, why do you think the OT's don't make you feel welcome ? Have you ever thought that the problem may be YOUR attitude towards them and not the OT's ???
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by DOODAH on August 29, 2003
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"compromise" means "give me what I want or I will whine and complain until I get it"
= "I made the effort, but it was a long long time
ago and I've forgotten what it was like but you pesky kids of today have it all too easy. You deserve being messed about a bit because I'm old and grumpy and youth is wasted on the young..." blah blah etc etc
Yawn.
OTs - thank Goodness they're not ALL like that.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N9AVY on August 29, 2003
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Nicely said Steve... now can we get back to the name-calling, in-fighting and some bashing of the 11 meter crowd ?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VP1MWB on August 29, 2003
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I am a Grumpy old bastard who until recently wanted to retain cw and make it harder for non technicals to get a license..
I now see the error of my ways; yes it was a pain in the ass learning cw all those years ago and I wanted evey other would be ham to sweat in blood learning the code as I had too.
This is the wrong way to think; cw serves no purpose as a testing instument,get rid of it.
Make the exams easier so we get new bloods into our hobby, the more the better.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CURMUDGEON on August 29, 2003
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I'll happily make a concession and say," just give them the damned license" for free. Now will that make you all happy?
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K5JDB on August 29, 2003
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Kindness, consideration and maturity are contagious. 73 Jim
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KE1MB on August 29, 2003
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Sorry RADIO123US but I am gona plug you on your last comment. Atttiude problem? Ok here is an attiude for you.
First attitude problem:
Lets see at age 14 I got a pink slip form an OO that told me I had clicking noises comming from my CW rig. With no help from anyone or advise from the OO who sent me the notice I quickly solved the problem by dropping my CW key in the trash.
Second attitude problem:
Every time I read this site and see the HATEFUL and DEGRADING comments that come from the "Elite" operators I form a judgement about them based on how those here represent themselves and go home only to throw the CW key away again.
I am so sick and tired of reading comments from those who represent CW that I have lost all pleasure and desire for CW. Because of what I read from others here I have lost all the magic that can be had with code. I hate it and will never pick my key up again if all I am to find on the air are the same kinds of people I find here.
Yes I am angry inside so go ahead and throw stones at me for it. And while you trash me with your comments just remember how many others read what you write and think about how they see you and this hobby. Thats right while you are at it maby you can turn more new people away.
Yes I am angry.
Yes i have a attitude problem.
So go ahead and take your best shot and smile while you are at it.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KB1FLR on August 29, 2003
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We need to focus both on preserving the hobby and maintaining the standards of the service. Hopefully we can come up with a solution that can address both goals.
Spending less time on the Internet and more time on the radio would probably help.
Rick, KB1FLR
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by RADIO123US on August 29, 2003
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KE1MB, all I am saying is we shouldn't have to LOWER our standards to ACCEPT those people who cannot make the grade... I understand that you THINK that most of the OT's are hateful and set in their ways...they are NOT...most only want our standards to be maintained.
I don't see why you would be angry about that ???
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N5RMQ on August 29, 2003
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Come on Guys and Gals, Remember this is YOUR HOBBY,this is something you do to relax. If its getting you all worked up you are defeating the purpose, mabey you should find another LESS STRESSFUL (key word here) HOBBY.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K0RGR on August 29, 2003
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Enough!
This horse is dead. It has ceased to be. There is no respiration, no heartbeat.
Continuing to torture the poor dead animal only makes us look silly.
The "amateur fraternity" is rapidly devolving into "Animal House" without the humorous or entertaining parts.
In fact, I believe that eHam and QRZ are doing us a great disservice by making this stuff so visible. How many potential newcomers have read this site and determined that we must be Neanderthals?
I have made small donations to the people that run these sites for some time. I'm beginning to question the intelligence of that charity. It's rather like donating to a benevolent organization and finding out that the money gets channeled to Al Quaeda.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W3LOW on August 29, 2003
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Steve:
Bravo. Enjoyed reading an article with some good sense for a change. Pretty hard to find anymore in these discussion boards. A good number of posts that I have read not only breed discontent, but also some articles strive for its sole purpose. Enough said.
Living here in northeastern Pennsylvania and licensed nearly 11 years now, have seen many people enter and leave the hobby alike.
Amateur radio for me is a fantastic hobby, a pursuit to learn, share ideas, experiment, camaraderie, provide emergency communications, have well trained operators available when needed and the list goes on and on. The hams in my area have been nothing short of wonderful. Helping people enter the hobby, providing solid advice when questions arose or just lending a helping hand with a local club putting up an antenna for a handicapped ham. Can say, without any hesitation or others opinions regarding my own,
that ham radio is alive and well, in northeastern Pennsylvania.
If you are a ham reading this article,
You must maintain your individual idea of the hobby, asking what and why did I get started in the hobby and not be strayed by others’ nonsensical ideas. Was it because of an uncle that you visited on weekends had an amateur radio set-up? Or perhaps you remember sitting in front of a short-wave radio, not TV/computer, that sparked your initial interest in the hobby?
For whatever reason, we must never forget who and what we are as amateur radio operators. Today, more than ever, we have many trials facing the hobby. Let's remain together, focused for the common good of the hobby, for us and our children.
Thanks for reading,
W3LOW
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N2XE on August 29, 2003
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<<it's time to start finding a middle ground. Ham radio is too important of an activity in each our lives to be sacrificed over something as petty as one's own ego. >>
a)Middle ground is for the wishy washy spineless. Either you believe in something or you don't. If you're wrong and can be convinced otherwise, that's one thing but to cave in just to get along is pathetic, weak and benefits no one.
b)Ham radio is just a hobby. A good hobby, a fun hobby and an educational hobby but it's a hobby none-the-less. If it's "too important" in your life, somethings wrong. That's coming from a guy who absolutely loves the hobby...
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by 2INTEREST on August 29, 2003
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Oh, dear, another author who has correct and proper ideas. Better watch out, this may be contagious! Maybe there is hope after all.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG4YJQ on August 29, 2003
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RADIO123US,
>>This is very typical of the no-code mentality<<
Who said anything about code?
I'm happy with my license class whether you like it or not.
You are a bitter little person
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1ZF on August 29, 2003
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Hmmm... Yet another call sign that doesn't come up
in E-Ham's database... Hmmm...
All you no-coders that seem to want to take over, hey! There's a service just made for you: CB! Why don't you go back there and leave us alone?
Gene
K1ZF
(40wpm sticker)
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1ZF on August 29, 2003
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Steve, I owe you an apology: Your call sign came up in QRZ. Common E-ham. What's up with that?
Gene K1ZF
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG4YJQ on August 29, 2003
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Gene,
I'm sure you are alone most of the time...
Very alone.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VA2ADB on August 29, 2003
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'But remember the words of Abraham Lincoln: "A house divided against itself cannot stand."'
So THAT'S where Jesus got his best lines! ;-)
Alan VA2ADB
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WG2A on August 29, 2003
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Typical! There is no compromise from the anti-code types, hell, we've made the written exams easy as can be and lowered the cw requirement to a pitifully simple level and they still won't compromise. This guys attitude is EXACTLY why he gets grief from the "old farts" & rabid cw types. The problem is, eliminating cw testing is only the first step that these types will take. Their objective is to dumb down the requirements to a very simple 20 question multiple choice test for ALL ham spectrum use.
Chuck WG2A
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W4EWJ on August 29, 2003
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OTs' yea....well maybe when it was harder and took
some effort to learn theory and morse and become
a ham...just maybe that made one feel good about the
hobby and have respect for those that jumped through
the same hoops. When someone is given something
or gains anything without some effort then that
something or anything has less value or meaning.
Maybe if some of you knew more about the history
of CW and the role its played in the hobby and
commercially, the lives its saved and was the last
means of communications to lives lost you would
gain some insight into the thinking of those of
us who respect and enjoy the mode. Maybe you would
understand that your little egos who enjoy making
your jabs on EHAM without concern for the possiblity
physical confrontation make you look small and without
merit. Maybe if you listen to the absolute garbage
on SSB that so confronts the world, the jamming, music
cursing, CB mentality operating you would understand
the contempt that those who practices such garbage
deserve and are looked upon by us OTs'. Additionaly
you would understand that the hobby is just that,
a hobby, with a lot of different views but also that
the basics, the glue, the mortor to hold the hobby
together is the methods of entrance to the hobby of
amateur radio and it used to be that it was held in
high regard simply because of the difficulty of
entrance, the exams the cw requirement. Some of us
look upon cw as that glue, if you will.
It helped save my life...And I know a few folks who
died after locking down the key or trying to send
the auto alarm....do any of you know about a young
fellow named ALBION LANE? he was the R/O on the
MARINE ELECTRIC lost off the eastern shore of Va.
in the early 80s...lost at sea. I could name others
in the 80s but what the hell....cw is archaic to some
to hard to learn, useless as a communications mode,
not used anymore (you should listen to 4XZ, 8BY,
UEM. CWB, WPC. CLA, IAR, SVO, UFB, The Indian National
Railroad and many others...why is it still a requirement for the Special Operations folks?
My point is that simple basic respect for each other
as AMATEURS (I've seen it from both sides) would go
a long way in eliminating the ill will that exists.
You damn well bet I respect anyone that learns
morse and becomes proficient in its use, for some its
hard and they deserve more respect...can anyone out
there tell me what effor it takes to speak in a mic?
Dont mean to burst your collective bubbles but
reality is simply that. HOWEVER I enjoy and respect
the guys who dont cuss, jam, play music, act as if
they are actually CB jerks on SSB, and for the
majority of hams, SSB is their enjoyment of the hobby
and so-be-it they contribute a lot and for those
folks they have just as much right to their spectrum
as anyone else as long as they dont abuse it. There
was a day when to say a curse word would have brought
the wrath of the FCC down upon you, jam, play music,
be drunk on the air, no-one would have dreamed of
such child like actions, yet its common place today
and maybe thats why there are fewer active hams
Maybe it has nothing to do with the 5 wpm cw
requirement. BPL? If the FCC is convinced it will
fill the govt coffers then it will probably be
looked at very seriously...public, hams, be damned.
But in their insight they might require future
cables be underground, or some thoughts about effective
filtering (whatever that might be)
The hobby has changed just like society and it
probably reflects the changes. My conclusions are
my own...just take a look at the past and dont
be too sure that it wasnt important or that it does
not have an impact on the present or future.
rgds
Earl
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5UX on August 29, 2003
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Something that can be had for nothing is not worth having.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by NE0P on August 29, 2003
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The No-code group has the typical "Bipartisian" mentality of today. Compromise means that you have to do it my way, and I will give nothing up. So it is the same "do it my way or else."
Also, why all this elitism against CB operators? They are fellow radio operators, they just didn't want to learn useless electronics. It is similar to what the no-code blames the pro-code group for. Guess the anti-coders want to feel superior to someone.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC7YRN on August 29, 2003
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>we've made the written exams easy as can be
If you go to aa9pw.com and take a practice exam, is that your assessment of it?
Certainly it's easier than driving to an FCC office and drawing, from scratch, an oscillator circuit. No question about that.
Still, I suspect you'd be reassured about the qualifications of today's hams if you sampled the examinations they've passed.
If not, well, keep pointing out important and useful things that new licensees ought to know. The ones who take the healthy attitude that a ham license is a learner's permit will pay attention and learn.
73 de KC7YRN Fred
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KZ9G on August 29, 2003
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Hi John (NE0P),
How are you doing! I wouldn't say electronics is useless. I've had, and continue to have, a great 22 year career in the radio-electronics and telecom businesses. I've gone from being a lowly Technician to a Senior Engineer and Telecom Consultant in the wireless and wireline industries. Just think now, it all started with our ham radio interests as teenagers in Davenport, IA.
By the way, where's David, KA0GOA, these days?
73 de Steven, KZ9G
Bothell, WA (just N. of Seattle)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WG2A on August 29, 2003
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Hi Fred! I didn't mean to impune people who take the recent exams, but yes, I did sit before an FCC examiner, three times. My point is that the questions and answers are now published and can, with some effort, be memorized, much easier than it was before. When I was a novice, I asked my elmer to help me pass the general, he handed me the ARRL Handbook and said "Read this!", Well, that's what I did, failed the general twice miserably, but the third time was a charm. some of the stuff I read did "rub off" I guess! LOL!
Chuck WG2A
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KB4EZ on August 29, 2003
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Well said Earl. CW is still an important and viable means of communication. As for the statement about how difficult the test are now that was made by another post (KC7YRN), they left out the part about knowing in advance what the questions are and what the multiple choice answers are. Just go to MJF.com and you can order a book with just the questions and ONLY the correct answer given.
73 de Ray KB4EZ
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by BUBBA4CW on August 29, 2003
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Roger... Dodger... 10-4 GOOD BUDDY....
This be BUBBA...
WE is gonna get the 2 meter ra-did-io and extend it out and pump it up....
Ya' all come back now...
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CW559 on August 29, 2003
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Just remember...there are only 2 modes...CW and CB.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and why bo
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by VE7AZC on August 29, 2003
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I've been a ham for about 6 years and have all the priveleges. I'm finding that a lot of the conversation is pretty shallow and destructive on all the bands (except mayber 160m), except for the technical stuff, which is getting increasingly rare. The boring content is pegging the needle as well. I don't feel it's worth it to continue to have this investment in gear simply for the short moments of good communuications that take place.
There's so much fighting on the bands that I'm embarassed to have anybody of my freinds or family listen. The other day, in the middle of a benign conversation, some Alpha Hotel told me to put a condom on my microphone and shove it in my mouth. This is not too common, but it happens just enough in conversations that I hear to make me wonder if it's worth the trouble. It's certainly not what I signed on for. So I'm getting out. The radio is for sale, soon the amp and the tower and all the other stuff will go. It was fun building the system ... especially the tower and quad antenna etc. But it's time for a new and pleasant HOBBY. One of the earlier commentors said that a hobby should be relaxing, and I totally agree. This is not only NOT relaxing, but for the money spent, it's just an expensive ticket to the Jerry Springer show. I'm outta here.
You may say good riddance, but regrettably I feel I am cutting my losses.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by CURMUDGEON on August 29, 2003
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I like that! There are only two modes, CW & CB. Yes, thats it! A day will come when the phone boys will curse the day that they allowed themselves to be sold the no code arguement.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N3EVL on August 29, 2003
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To CURMUDGEON & CW559:
Gentlemen (or ladies): I'm sorry to hear that the radio service to which you belong has such limitations placed upon it in terms of operating modes and related avenues for exploration and advancement. You may be interested to learn of an alternative that is known as "Amateur Radio," a service to which I have belonged for many years. Unlike the service you describe, here we can use a variety of different operating modes and bands and employ a vast range of tried and tested and cutting edge technologies. We get to talk to all manner of people with simialr interests, sometimes just around the corner and sometimes across the world. In doing so we both teach and learn as we go and even make long time friends. I commend this service to you for your consideration.
73, Pete
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on August 29, 2003
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> "Let's make the exams harder" = keep more people
> away.
>
>"Your tech license means nothing, it's worthless" =
> run even more people off.
Just think, if we could find a way to keep everybody away, we could have the finest amateur radio service ever! :-)
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by BUBBA4CW on August 29, 2003
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How much for that them tower getup?...
Will it fit on my big rig? or my tracktor?
Burrrrrp
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N6AJR on August 29, 2003
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First............. why is almost 50 % of the comments here posted by FOLKS WHO DON'T USE THEIR CALL???
Second ........... CW IS JUST ANOTHER MODE
Third............. We take the test GIVEN AT THE TIME WE TAKE IT, and this is not decided buy you or me but by the FCC !!!!
Fourth............. Lets drop the code as a REQUIREMENT and make it a MATTER OF PRIDE, as in "I am a no code ham who learned the code because it IS another mode and I am proud of it."
Fifth............. All you old farts and newbies, (I am both, an old fart who was licenced in 1979, but has not been active from 1980 till 2001) WE BOTH LOVE HAM RADIO, so lets find common ground and ENJOY.
hope this helps... tom N6AJR (a brand new, old fart, oldtimer, no coder, who took the code at san francisco FCC, who used to be on CB, and now is an old time, extra (light),who likes to post on EHAM. )I was a tech plus from the start, and promptly forgot the code and remained a "two meter tech", with HF CODE privdleges for 20 something years, so don't complain to me about techs.....
Now there is something for everyone to take a shot at me. Flame away, but don't take it out on the HAM RADIO, because it has no concience, just the folks who use it.
And remember to start your brain before engaging your mouth ( or in this case keyboard.)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N6AJR on August 29, 2003
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First............. why is almost 50 % of the comments here posted by FOLKS WHO DON'T USE THEIR CALL???
Second ........... CW IS JUST ANOTHER MODE
Third............. We take the test GIVEN AT THE TIME WE TAKE IT, and this is not decided buy you or me but by the FCC !!!!
Fourth............. Lets drop the code as a REQUIREMENT and make it a MATTER OF PRIDE, as in "I am a no code ham who learned the code because it IS another mode and I am proud of it."
Fifth............. All you old farts and newbies, (I am both, an old fart who was licenced in 1979, but has not been active from 1980 till 2001) WE BOTH LOVE HAM RADIO, so lets find common ground and ENJOY.
hope this helps... tom N6AJR (a brand new, old fart, oldtimer, no coder, who took the code at san francisco FCC, who used to be on CB, and now is an old time, extra (light),who likes to post on EHAM. )I was a tech plus from the start, and promptly forgot the code and remained a "two meter tech", with HF CODE privdleges for 20 something years, so don't complain to me about techs.....
Now there is something for everyone to take a shot at me. Flame away, but don't take it out on the HAM RADIO, because it has no concience, just the folks who use it.
And remember to start your brain before engaging your mouth ( or in this case keyboard.)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N1RWC on August 29, 2003
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OK Here's a top shot...
Actual Case in point..
I have an AMATEUR EXTRA License...
I can't fix my own radio, I can't calculate how much RF is too much..
But I got an Amateur Extra Class license.
And before it was a CB License.
When was the last time you saw a "New or Recent" Amateur Extra actually repair or attempt to work on their own equipment? I haven't heard of one yet, but then again that old phrase..
I passed my 5 WPM, Do you know where I can get my radio fixed?
Makes respectable Amateurs sick with disgust for that much stupidity. In my opinion, an actual test of showing some talent or skill to benifit the hobby should be the replacement for Element 1, can't pass that then you can't have a license.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N1RWC on August 29, 2003
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By the way, for all you folks that know how to operate a computer but have little brains, I do not have an extra class license, I was referring to the idiots who fall into the group I just wrote about.
I'm a happy tech who can probably repair and build from scratch better than those "Extra Class" Hams out there.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by BUBBA4CW on August 29, 2003
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US CB FOLK CAN PUMP IT UP...
ADD FUNNY FREQ'S....
And over modulate like crazy...
And we dont need no stinkin' license...
hehe
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VE2QNC on August 29, 2003
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As CW is disappearing it's no time for compromise or searching for a middle ground! Sorry, too late. Compromises should have been done 30 years ago by opened minded people. There were none at that time. Only people sitting on their priveleges. Now that the "war" is lost, they are begging for midle solutions... No. We are entering into a new era that will definitely not based on the same principles. Sorry, too late...
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N3EVL on August 29, 2003
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Poor BUBBA4CW - another unfortunate example of someone who didn't adhere to the RF exposure guidelines ;)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 29, 2003
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"Something that can be had for nothing is not worth having."
In that case, you won't mind not breathing.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KE4ZHN on August 29, 2003
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Truly amazing...here Steve tries to make people aware that all this fighting and bitching is silly and what happens?
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K9WLF on August 29, 2003
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"It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the Amateur who holds the license." Looking at the posts, this is as true now as it was 4 years ago when I got licensed. I learned the code to get my license and if I can, I think everyone else can, too. I will admit that I don't use code, partly because the mode doesn't interest me, partly because I have arthritis in both hands so it is easier to step on a foot switch for my PTT, so I can save my hands for my job as a computer and printer technician. As I said, I don't use the code, but I support its' continuance as part of the test. If the code is to be removed, then the tests should be made more difficult. As was said, anything given freely has no value. I also hope that everyone who reads this can see that I have made my point without flaming, name calling, vitriolic diatribe or making a fool of myself. Remember that the general public can also read these posts. How can we expect the public to support and respect Amateur Radio when we obviously, in general, do not respect ourselves and the others in our hobby. To paraphrase an old TV show," We can fix it, we can make it better, we have the technology."
73, Tom K9WLF/4; Assistant County RACES Officer, ARES CAT Team member, ARRL VE, mobile DX'er, Broward Amateur Radio Club Vice President and (my girlfriend says) all around nice guy.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by AE6IP on August 29, 2003
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<< When was the last time you saw a "New or Recent" Amateur Extra actually repair or attempt to work on their own equipment? I haven't heard of one yet, but then again that old phrase..
I passed my 5 WPM, Do you know where I can get my radio fixed? >>
Give me a couple of minutes here while I finish soldering my home brewed rig control interface, and I'll see if I can find an answer for you.
Marty
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 29, 2003
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"I'm a happy tech who can probably repair and build from scratch better than those "Extra Class" Hams out there."
d00d. you're just the guy i'm looking for. this NTSC parasitic quadrature modulation chip I'm designing has a timing glitch in the Biterbi decoder that I'm having trouble finding in the simulator. Any chance you could look at the VHDL files and see if there's something wrong with the design rules?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 29, 2003
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<< Truly amazing...here Steve tries to make people aware that all this fighting and bitching is silly and what happens? >>
When the fighting gets silly the silly get bitching?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KE4ZHN on August 29, 2003
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Thats right, and the know it alls try to show their ass too.......
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VK3DMN on August 29, 2003
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I could repair and modify the old FT200 I used to own, I can and have worked on the old TS520 that's still sitting on the shelf. Ditto the Ft7 I used to have. I built a 20 amp power supply for my station and I've built tuners and antennas.
I wouldn't even think of trying to work on the VX1R or some of the other modern sub miniature rigs... they are simply too small! It isn't a matter of knowledge; it's a matter of practicality.
Just because an amateur chooses not to work on particular radios they may be running does not make them less a ham.
BTW I will have a look at the new Icom 718 I've ordered (I thought about the 706 series, but they seemed to compact to be easily worked on :-)
Now back to the original topic ;-)
The poster makes some valid points about finding a middle ground.
How about this...
It seems to me that the current CW sub bands could be reserved for those who have passed a CW test, and the remaining segments of the bands could be opened up to people who don't have a code qualification.
That would give morse operators communication without interference from other modes, and it would give access to all hf bands for no code licence holders.
By the way... for those unfamiliar with VK licences the D prefix means I passed the original faster morse requirement, and no I don't use it, it has no interest to me. But I understand that it has strong interest for others.
What do you people think... is something like this workable around the world?
If not... then why not?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AK4P on August 29, 2003
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Why not volunteer to be a MARS operator? There is a need for MARS (Miltary Affiliate Radio System) operators to support our brave young men and women who are fighting the war against terror around the world. You'll find, I think, that MARS is a lot more structured, and poor operating practices are not tolerated. If you're not satisfied with the ham bands, then consider MARS.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by X-WB1AUW on August 29, 2003
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WHEN the FCC asks for comments about weather to change HF access, or not, everyone can file their comments.
After the FCC decides if they are going to change the requirements to HF access, people will ONLY be able to take whatever tests the FCC requires for ham radio privileges.
I'll still start in the Extra portion of the phone bands if I just want to chat, less QRM there.
It is still theoretically possible to grant HF access that DOES NOT include SSB, or AM.
FM ten meters anyone?
Novice sub band access, with Novice sub band power restrictions for sending and receiving computer generated CW?
Might be we need a rewrite: beginners ticket, intermediate, and regular tickets.
Bob
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N1KGH on August 29, 2003
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There's something missing here: If we put Extras up on a pedestal--I am one myself--and say they're supposed to know everything, they won't admit to their ignorance, and the problem will perpetuate itself.
There are things I don't know. Lots of them. I took the Extra (the old written pre-restructuring) exam. I took my GROL.
But there are things I don't know.
Even in my computer field, I'm always behind on knowing things, even though I work *very* hard for my knowledge (it's my day job). I'm ecstatic about the Web, for I don't have to look stupid in front of someone else. Imagine that.
According to some, we have people who don't want to learn. If I had a wannabee drill-sargeant as an elmer, I could see why. As well, it's the easy way out for some Extras to stand on their exams and think they never have to learn anything again. Some do this because they've learned little enough to pass.
Others are nasty because guys like W2OY ("No kids, no lids, no space cadets!") were mean to *them*. Some hams romanticize W2OY. Perhaps if I get divorced and lose a custody battle, and take it out over the air (or today, over the net), I can be put on a pedestal, too.
My advice for all the Extras out there is to be humble, remember there is more than you'll ever know, admit it publicly and ask questions when *you* don't know the answer. Your Elmees will appreciate it.
Take care,
Dave
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by X-WB1AUW on August 29, 2003
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PS: the best thing about NO-CODE! ops is they aren't in the CW pile ups, or on 30 meters; less QRM.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KY1V on August 29, 2003
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First, let me apologize for posting off topic. My hat is off to Steve for his foresight.
I have intentionally kept out of the flame wars as I find the behavior quite immature. I cannot resist, however, posting a comment about the following statements posted by KE1MB
"Second attitude problem:
Every time I read this site and see the HATEFUL and DEGRADING comments that come from the "Elite" operators I form a judgment about them based on how those here represent themselves and go home only to throw the CW key away again."
From this statement, one can only assume that the "elite operators" to which KE1MB refers are those whom have successfully passed all of the FCC elements required to obtain full operating privileges.
I am baffled when I think how a person can characterize those whom have achieved more than they have in such a spiteful manner, all the while desiring as much as the next person the same status! Yet this very same person is not willing to put forth any effort to achieve it!
Is there something wrong with this picture, or am I looking through a stained glass?
It reminds me of people whom sit around in the break room at work and complain how another co-worker got promoted and took the job they should have had, but that same complaining employee doesn't show up to work on time every day, doesn't work overtime when requested and doesn't make any effort to further their education.
These people think they deserve the same things other people EARN but believe they shouldn't have to do anything to get them.
KE1MB goes on to state:
"Yes I am angry.
Yes i have a attitude problem.
So go ahead and take your best shot and smile while you are at it."
Life is too short to be angry. If ham radio, or the people whom share the hobby, makes you angry, find something else to do. Your life depends upon it. Happiness keeps us alive!
Attitude problems are THE NUMBER ONE inhibitor to success, in ALL aspects of life, not just ham radio! Drop the attitude and perhaps you will find there are plenty of doors leading directly to success. Perhaps you may open one of them that leads directly to 20+wpm (is that required any more?) and an Extra class ticket.
I am not interested in taking shots at you, however, in the end, I can only sit back, relax and smile.
As a friend of mine whom moved here from a repressed society used to constantly remind me..."Life is good"
Enjoy it for it will all be ending shortly!
David KY1V
"Taking full advantage of all of life's opportunities presented before me"
<em>KY1V</em>
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AF0H on August 29, 2003
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If code testing is dropped, give the no-coders the same privelages as a Tech Plus. They would have HF access like they want - 10 meter voice and the rest cw portions. grin They would still have to learn cw to use their new privelages, and talk about a pile-up on the 10-meter novice phone band . grin
73 de
AF0H - Rob
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by NN7B on August 29, 2003
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BPL won't kill ham radio. It might make it miserable to operate but, it won't kill it.
Losing a CW requirement for HF privileges won't kill ham radio. It's still the most popular 'basic digital' mode we have and bridges all the languages of the world.
What will kill ham radio are the anal-retentive hams who have an personal agenda or want to complain about every little problem or change that comes along. Hams will kill ham radio. In my opinion, which everyone is welcome to, we will simply self-destruct from within.
Paul - NN7B
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AB5XZ on August 29, 2003
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After the dust settles, I promise to:
Get on the air on CW and see if it's still fun (it was in 1959 when I was KN5YFK).
Try a NEW mode (PSK31 sounds like a good one).
Build something.
Have a phone QSO in Spanish!
Have a CW QSO in Spanish!
Teach a new ham how to use a multimeter.
Teach a non-ham how to get a license.
Work on 5 Band WAS.
Write an article for a club newsletter.
Give a talk at a radio club meeting.
Design and make up a kit for a small project.
Enjoy this great HOBBY!
73TomAB5XZ
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by HFHAM2 on August 30, 2003
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CURMUDGEON said:
>>I'll happily make a concession and say," just give them the damned license" for free. Now will that make you all happy?<<
I doubt it, equality wasn't enough for Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson et al. They're gonna ride that particular "guilt trip" for all it's worth!
Now the no-code wieners including that self-important CB book writer of dubious X-Y Chromosome balance want to eradicate CW entirely.
Well sorry to disappoint, but we young (and old) farts are going to be around for quite a while yet.
No, we can't all just get along!
CW is *not* "just another mode.
CW *is* ham radio.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1ZF on August 30, 2003
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Hey Elaine,
Lonely …Gee! I’m surrounded by people, most of them hams. This morning, I had breakfast with six guys who are licensed. Yesterday, it was eight. At work, I supervise 12 people who are “RF” literate. There’s room in this hobby for everyone, code or not. I just wish the no-coders would quit poking us in the side.
73, Gene, K1ZF
(40 WPM sticker)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by MRMORSE on August 30, 2003
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You so called O.F.s are nothing but stinkin' whiny hoodlums. You think it's hep to operate cw with a sideswiper? Well that just ain't cw! Unless you're operating a straight key at 70 words per minute you ain't a ham. What the hell is a transistor anyway? Boy they sure dumbed down ham radio when they stopped the testing on tube theory. If your rig isn't homebuilt on a piece of pine board with at least 3 tubes and cotton or asbestos covered wiring....Well then it isn't a ham radio. I bet you just went out and bought your radio.... you wannabe's. And another thing, what the hell is this newfangled single sideband stuff??!! If it ain't A.M. and you're not using a carbon mike like the good Lord intended, then you can't call yourself a real ham! And what's up with those slick manufacturers? Do they really think there's a benefit to single conversion receivers. It's just a ploy to soak you for your hard earned dollars. All you need is that "super jenny" rushbox. Don't let 'em fool you. Yep ham radio is sure going down the toilet. Oh wait, I can't say that, the toilet hasn't been invented yet.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by KZ9G on August 30, 2003
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AE6IP - Marty,
I've fixed my own gear over the years. But then again, I was trained and allowed to do so as a radio-electronics technician in the USAF over the last 18 plus years (retirement from the Air Guard soon awaits). This electronics foundation set my career in motion in the civilian world as a technician, engineer and consultant in the telecom industry. I choose this path because of my early love for comm-electronics, and particularly because of my exposure to ham radio as a teenager. Granted, my rigs are 10 years old and older, but I still maintain them, just as I have with military and FAA air traffic control systems, cryptographic and RF systems ranging from milliwatts to the 10 kilowatt level. Even to this day, some of us younger 30 and 40 year olds have the knowledge, test equipment, and experience to do it.
As for CW, I love it. But due to the telecommunications technology with I'm intimately familiar with, morse code just isn't as important in today's world as it used to be; it's high time for limited no-code HF license. It's quickly become just another mode of operation, but a dearly loved mode that has formed the foundation of radio, amateur and otherwise.
73.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AB7JK on August 30, 2003
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I don't know what the big deal is - the no coders won't be on the cw portion of the band anyway so who cares? Less interference for the rest of us. Who cares how many ex cb'ers are causing interference on 14.170 -it's their problem. Who cares about the ham radio "fraternity" - it doesn't exist anymore in any aspect of our society. We've been dumbed down, demoralized and media manipulated for so long it's better not knowing who you are communicating with on the other side of the QSO and there is no going back. Making peace with what's left of your scrawny, no-good selves is your only hope. May God help us all - he won't. He only helps those who admit there is something wrong with themselves and who stop judging everyone and everything else.
Tired of psychotics in Florida
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KZ9G on August 30, 2003
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AB7JK:
I know we're up late tonight, but really... You started out with an interesting and rational point, but then you went off the deep end. If you want, I can meet you at 7023 for a 30 WPM, cross-country QSO about this opinion of yours.
73 de Steven, KZ9G
Bothell, WA
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on August 30, 2003
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> Who cares about the ham radio "fraternity" - it
> doesn't exist anymore in any aspect of our society.
One would think that by reading your post and views of your fellow hams, but I didn't get that from MOB's article that started all this. That may tell us something about the source of at least one smallpart of this lack of "fraternity."
> We've been dumbed down, demoralized and media
> manipulated for so long it's better not knowing who
> you are communicating with on the other side of the
> QSO and there is no going back.
Is this your example of the "fraternity" that should be in amateur radio?
> Making peace with what's left of your scrawny, no-
> good selves is your only hope.
Hams are far from scrawny... :-)
>May God help us all - he won't.
God has provided more help to me in my life than I could have imagined, and assuredly more than I even know.
> He only helps those who admit there is something
> wrong with themselves and who stop judging everyone
> and everything else.
I can't speak for the Lord, and I suspect you can't either. But your deciding that there is no fraternity left in the world is as absolute a judgement as I could imagine. Standing on a soapbox in a public forum and proclaiming that everyone is dumbed down and no-good is a pretty strong judgement, too.
If you want to invoke God in your argument, follow His examples and it will become pretty clear that the world is a good place after all and most folks within it are decent and worthy souls.
We are not responsible for the actions of others; we are responsible for ourselves, and if you truly believe that fraternity in our world is important, then even if you were the only one, you should exhibit that fraternity in everything you do. Those who preach but are unwilling to at least try to practice carry no credibility with me.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD7EFQ on August 30, 2003
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It didn't take long for this thread to DE-generate as they always do. I'm not suprised. Look at how popular the (FAKE) Pro-wrestling has become. Maybe we should all be required to take Tough guy names here instead of use callsigns. "The Undertaker, or Stone cold Steve, or Mad Dog, or wait a minute, Hey I just realized, they do that on CB already. Most people's attitudes on here are "tuned-up" as if they just got out of a WWF wrestling event! Pathetic! T
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KE4ZHN on August 30, 2003
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Hey Kim, if your so tired of Florida, why dont you do us all a favor and move? Just because some of us dont fit your so called profile of perfection doesnt mean your better then the rest of us who happen to enjoy life in Florida. Dont let the door knob hit you in the ass on the way out.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W9JCM on August 30, 2003
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Hey DOODAH you are another NO IDer on eham eh? You gottal love it boys and girls how do we give a comment from someone who posts with no call any grain? No coders will always be no coders so get used to it. I am a coder one of the last to pass the general 13wpm code and love it. I have my csce framed on my wall, and dam proud of it. Personally I am sure we will drop the code requirement. But we should add to the general test a lab test. How to build a dipole, how to solder a pl259, how to properly ground. I know half the no coders around here can't do that, this is the big joke of ham radio today. No knowing code. Its utility operators ones who pass tests by memorizing the Q n A. You dont learn a thing and it shows.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by LNXAUTHOR on August 30, 2003
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1. eham.net has no requirement to use a callsign for a username
2. eham.net is a Web-based eforum open to anyone and everyone
3. what is the rationale for denigrating posters who don't use a callsign username? i joined eham before getting my General class ticket.
4. my comments are just as legal/valid as any poster using an FCC-issued callsign
5. eham.net is entirely free to mandate that any users or posters must have a valid callsign username, but until then i'd still like to read why usernames are 'aren't as good as' callsign usernames
73
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on August 30, 2003
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<< eham.net is entirely free to mandate that any users or posters must have a valid callsign username, but until then i'd still like to read why usernames are 'aren't as good as' callsign usernames >>
I can understand why someone may not want to change a username after getting a call sign, but it is entirely possible to add your name or call sign to your signature.
Anonymous statements can be valid, but I, and most others, generally give a lot more credibility to statements made by someone who believes in them enough to personally take responsibility for them.
A claim made by a "friend of a friend" is less trusted or trustworth than a claim made by someone you know.
I have noted, too, that most of the anonymous posts are worded such that no individual would want to admit to having made them. Why cast yourself in with that lot?
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W3LOW on August 30, 2003
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Ed:
Well said as always. When looking at these discussion boards, I don't look at the comments first. Initially my eyes go to see if a ham wrote it.
The others that don't give a call sign, well, let's just say they don't get a second glance by me.
73,
W3LOW
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on August 30, 2003
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Good artical. Too much anger and flamming going on in these threads.
Here is my idea for a compromise. This is just an idea.
10M is under used by hams. 2mhz of space. Illegals infiltrate 10M with total impunity. OK Reily did bust a huge trucking corp using 10M as a poor mans business band.
Many want HF phone without CW. Why not give no code techs total 10M use. They can operate phone or practice CW, if they want to.
10M can be a total DX delight. The illegals know that.
Then after passing a CW test or what ever the FCC decides to do with testing, full GENERAL privledges are granted.
Yet another idea. Perhaps after X amount of time, an O.O. or V.E. can be assigned to 10M PHONE. If the no code tech can demonstrate good operating proceedure, then perhaps an upgrade.
You can not please all the people all the time.(ABE LINCOLN)
I know my pro-CW friends may not like this idea.
It is a compromise. A good compromise should make both parties unhappy!
73 DE MIKE
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5AU on August 30, 2003
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CB is what's Left.
Bunch of Lazy whinning "Gimme for nothings". Ever who
started the NoCode Crap should have his Ass Whipped.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA4DOU on August 30, 2003
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It seems to me that the compromise occurred when the code speed reduction from 13 and 20 wpm to 5 wpm took place. How many more compromises will it take to appease this crowd?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG5JJ on August 30, 2003
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"Second attitude problem:
Every time I read this site and see the HATEFUL and DEGRADING comments that come from the "Elite" operators I form a judgment about them based on how those here represent themselves and go home only to throw the CW key away again."
Perhaps the author of the above should spend more time on CW and less on the internet? ;-}
Ummm...hateful and degrading comments have been coming from both sides. Why aren't comments from the self-proclaimed "non-elite" making you "throw-down your toys and go home" as well?
73 KG5JJ (Mike)
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by W5PVR on August 30, 2003
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Whoa, stop. take a break, I have been in Radio 65 years and a ham for 49 of them. I have seen: CW vs AM. AM vs SSB, SBB vs Digital Modes and all the others. All the previous contentions were resolved by time. Hang in there and operate what ever turns you on, There is no need to get upset, just fire up the rig and letter rip you young guys need to smell the burning resistors. Believe me you havn't lived until you experience a metal can wet electrolytic condenser explode. And a good knowledge of theory can make you a lot of money.
73,
Bob, w5pvr@I2k.net
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by NY7Q on August 30, 2003
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AFTER THE DUST SETTLES THERE WONT BE A HOBBY OF HAM RADIO. IT'LL BE LIKE CB FOR SURE. CW GONE, EXPERIMENTING GONE, ELECTRONICS GONE. THE TEST WILL BE GONE NEXT, AND BANDS WILL BE GONE. MARK MY WORDS.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1CJS on August 30, 2003
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An excellent article, Steve. It says the same as a few of the prior articles, but possibly in a better way. Too bad some still persist in being miserable as in an assortment of comments from this article:
"Just remember...there are only 2 modes...CW and CB."
"CB is what's Left. Bunch of Lazy whinning "Gimme for nothings". Ever who started the NoCode Crap should have his Ass Whipped."
"Yep, you OT's sure know how to make new people feel welcome."
"I am so sick and tired of reading comments from those who represent CW that I have lost all pleasure and desire for CW."
"It's time to start finding a middle ground. Ham radio is too important of an activity in each our lives to be sacrificed over something as petty as one's own ego."
"Middle ground is for the wishy washy spineless."
Things haven't changed, but things must change. When the change finally happens, ham radio can get back to what it should be.....Possibly.....Hopefully.....
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5HTW on August 30, 2003
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<<"CB is what's Left. Bunch of Lazy whinning "Gimme for nothings". Ever who started the NoCode Crap should have his Ass Whipped.">>
Started with the EIA, back in the early sixties, and pushed by some magazines and others, who all wanted a no-code ham license. They got it in the early 90s. Now they are getting no-code ham radio.
<<"Yep, you OT's sure know how to make new people feel welcome.">>
Sure do. But we limit that welcome - and the accompanying assistance - to those with an interest in ham radio, not in changing ham radio into CB. Or cell phones.
<<"I am so sick and tired of reading comments from those who represent CW that I have lost all pleasure and desire for CW.">>
My guess is you never had any such interest anyway, so you had nothing to lose.
<<"It's time to start finding a middle ground. Ham radio is too important of an activity in each our lives to be sacrificed over something as petty as one's own ego.">>
Not true, regarding the importance. It's just a hobby and when this one dies, there are other hobbies to take its place.
<<"Middle ground is for the wishy washy spineless.">>
When the vote is yay or nay, middle ground is not a vote at all, and isn't even on the ballot.
<<Things haven't changed, but things must change. When the change finally happens, ham radio can get back to what it should be.....Possibly.....Hopefully.....>>
That will, can, never happen. Those who are not happy with the New Ham Radio must find another hobby, for it will never return to being a technical hobby, or to a fraternity of qualified hobbyists. Some of us will fan the dying embers until they grow cold, while others will simply sell off the equipment and take up golf.
The majority of hams who 'think' they are electronics experts today can't figure out how to use an ohmmeter. They think they are the equivalent of a Bachelor's degree in electronics just because they passed a very basic test on how to turn on a radio. They may know how to boot up a computer or change a video card, but they have no idea how to troubleshoot a "radio."
Of course, that skill isn't needed today. All they need to know is how to unwrap it when it arrives, where to find the wall outlet, and which hole the microphone goes into. Experts? How silly! "Them days is gone ferever!!"
It has little to do with Morse, actually. It has to do with the entire approach of American society that we have to start at the top, have the easiest and fastest route to our goals, exert the least effort, know the least and think we know the most, and try pushing the mountains we used to climb down into anthills so no climbing is needed or desired. It is a desire not to have achievement, but just to have. It is the act of making everyone qualify for everything, by law, rather than having them qualify by devotion. It is granting automatic 'rights' where there were privileges to be earned. We still want to plant the flag on the mountain peak, but we want the peak to be only a foot high. Morse was only one rock in the way of leveling the mountain. When the mountain is gone, the challenge of climbing it will have faded into nothing more than a gray memory. We are near there in ham radio, and in a lot of other walks of life as well. We are no longer about achievement or personal challenge; we are about 'rights.'
We aren't going back. We who enjoyed the old ham radio must adapt to the new, whatever that will be, or we must turn it over to the new and let them have their not-so-golden days. Then, when the next mountains are leveled, they, too, can complain that it has changed, that it is not the ham radio they visualized.
When we are so diluted we are no longer fine wine but pale water, we will not have the strength or the desire to fight things like BPL. And our need to society, already greatly diminished, will be replaced by our obnoxious attitude that we are God's gift to the community. We will have over-valued ourselves into no value at all, and perhaps will have become more of a pain in the butt, to the FCC and to authorities around us, that we are neither needed nor accepted.
Eventually, it will be gone.
Ed
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on August 30, 2003
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I just found a dead horse in my EA-6 PROWLER. The dead horse is mounted where the shriek, amram, and harm missles used to be when it was the A-6 intruder.
In the event this turns into yet another CW/ANTI-CW
debate, please let me know where to drop the horse!
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5UX on August 30, 2003
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Years ago cb radio got so ugly and out of hand that the FCC threw up it's hands in horror and said "We give up." Is this going to happen again? I Don't know whether to fight or get a "handle" before the good ones get used up.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 30, 2003
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>> Anonymous statements can be valid, but I, and most
>> others, generally give a lot more credibility to
>> statements made by someone who believes in them
>> enough to personally take responsibility for them.
>> A claim made by a "friend of a friend" is less
>> trusted or trustworth than a claim made by someone
>> you know.
>> I have noted, too, that most of the anonymous posts
>> are worded such that no individual would want to
>> admit to having made them. Why cast yourself in
>> with that lot?
>> 73,
>> Ed Hare, W1RFI
You're a good man, W1RFI and deserve all the credit you get for your work on BPL and other technical areas. But you do neither yourself, nor the hobby any credit when you resort to ad hominem attack.
This is, I think, the third time I've seen you make an innuendo attack on those you disagree with, rather than addressing the issue under discussion.
The debate over anonymity on the net is ancient and has no resolution. There is no validation done by eHam.net, and it would be easy to adopt the call sign of someone not using computers and publish whatever bile you wanted, so 'anonymity' is a red herring. (How do you *really* know I'm AE6IP?)
Not only that, but in this endless discussion of Morse code, if you measure carefully, you will discover that there are just as many vile remarks made by people using callsigns as by people using anonymous accounts, so it doesn't seem that 'personal responsibility' is any more of a throttle on foul-mouth than 'anonymity' is a license on it. (You will also find that both sides are pretty evenly matched in terms of the number of reasoned nonemotional posters and the number of foul-mouthed commentors. This is typical on the net.)
People on both sides this discussion are getting worked up beyond reason, and as a community leader, you should be setting an example of rational discourse, not contributing fuel to the fire.
We amateurs can turn this debate into a pissing contest that will do nothing but split our community and reflect badly on our hobby; or we can turn it into a rational disscusion among civilized people who have a valid difference of opinions. Which of those two approaches do you wish to throw your lot in with?
Any argument made, on any side of any issue should be evaluated on the merit of the argument, not on the credentials of the presenter. Claims should be substantiated, not judged on the person making the claim. Community leaders should work to heal the rift caused by dissent, not to further it.
73
Marty AE6IP
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by VP1MWB on August 30, 2003
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I have come to the conclusion that CW ops are a pack of wankers and selfish pigs!
ME ME ME ME.......F**** the hobby, If I cant have it my way I will F**** it for everyone.
You lot can jam your paddle right up your ass.
They go through life playing "Spot the CBer" as if is the only game in town.
You pack of Pin Headed, backward thinking, Neanderthal back biting, I think I am holyer than thou, Ham radio destroying, Alpha Hotels!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can all get stuffed!!!!
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on August 30, 2003
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Hey W5UX...thats exactly what they want. cb did exactly like you said. It got nasty and ugly. The 25 year veterans of cb that are to stupid to pass the 5wpm will be on hf pretty soon. Its all about dumbing down the tests so arrl can get new membership simple as that. Hams reading this.. the fcc has a 30 day period for you to voice your opinions about dropping the code. If you love your hambands go to the fcc site and voice your opinion. Maybe the arrl wont be getting thousands of cbers as members if enough of us speak up now. Any arrl "brown noses" reading this..."bite me"
John WR8D:
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by WA2JJH on August 30, 2003
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Marty, I agree with you 1000% visa-vi on how some people insist they are right all the time. Some call it narsistic personality disorder.(excuse spelling) on a DSM-IV 300 code.
I have learned there are always 3 sides to any debate. SIDE A, SIDE B, AND THE TRUTH! There may not be a truth either
Anyone who claims to be right on all things all the time, are insane. People like SUN YUNG MOON,JIM JONES
and others.
THOSE that seek dominion over other people by way of sophestry, should be taken with a grain of salt.
Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. However I think it is rude when an individual has to attack other opinions. Using a position of power or abuse of leadership is not what the founding fathers had in mind.
In fact what I really hate the most is this new trend.You state your opinion. Then somebody feels like it is their manifest destiny to put the persons opinion
in ''SHAME QUOATATION NOTATION"".
My opinion is people should use restraint in quoating somebody, then systematicly shoot them down.
Example of shame quotation notation
{{{Somebodys opinion}}}....Then a total bash of what is inside the quoate brackets.
Whats up with this NEW TREND! Last time I LOOKED AT MY PASSPORT, IT SAID U.S.A.!
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC8YHN on August 31, 2003
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I hope someone reads this.....
Hey everyone, there are more things to worry about than the requirements to get your license.
For all you that think it is not important to have Code, remember that this is a privilege with the purpose of building up knowledgeable operators for emergency and other important needs, not to serve the needs of individuals. CW does serve a purpose in both emergency and in protection of our country. Any of you who have taken NBC (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) training or understand the effects of electromagnetic pulse radiation will understand what I am talking about; the simpler the communications method, the more successful in time of need. Believe me if anyone thinks that there ICOM or Kenwood would live through a pulse will find their rig a case of dead parts. We live in the shadows of 9-11 and not to sound doom and gloom, it matters that we do have a communications structure in times of emergency.
But also for those who don’t understand about unity for the protection of our hobby, everyone should unite on the subject of BPL. BPL is a very bad thing. What I have been reading for the past week is that no one seems to care; all they want to do is rant about the work it takes to get a ticket. The BPL thing I know first hand, being part of a study for IT and disaster recovery back in the late 90’s with two power companies. Technology has not changed enough to make it acceptable. There is so much that is not being talked about and unfortunately I can’t remember all of it to explain. For some reason Hams don’t want to unify on this subject and it will hurt all of us in the long run.
Thanks for reading this,
KC8YHN
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by N2NZJ on August 31, 2003
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I CAN CLEARLY SEE THE FRATERNITY IS NOT INTACT ON THIS ISSUE. sam pro-code bashes joe no code we must have close to 1000 comments between e-ham and qrz.com together on this issue alone. this is only one of 3 issues the other 2 if passed BPL AND WI-FI will all but kill the great hobby we so enjoy IN ANY MODE USED.so all this bashing and crashing each other is getting us ALL NOWHERE FAST.AFTER THE DUST SETTLES THERE MAY BE VERY LITTLE LEFT FOR ANYONE ON EITHER SIDE OF THE FENCE. let us direct our energy to the issues of BPL AND WI- FI. and not DIVIDE ourselves on this REMOVAL OF ELEMENT ONE ISSUE. REMOVING IT WILL NOT KILL AMATEUR RADIO. B P L & WI-FI WILL. so i say to all 73 de N2NZJ TOM
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N5JOB on August 31, 2003
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Dear Steve,
Good points on letting everyone have their opinion. Too bad e-Ham and QRZ DO NOT.
I guarantee you, in 70 years, there will be no amateur radio. I predict that, in 25 years, it will be a memory.
Some don't like that, because they like radio. Well, I like it too, but that's not going to change the fact that amateur radio takes up frequency space and adds next to nothing.
I don't want to get e-mails from those guys telling me about their "public service" efforts at the yearly Potato Pagent Parade down Main Street, either. Any REAL public service can be carried out in probably 1/10th the frequency spectrum the Amateur operators are assigned now.
So, you enjoy it while you can fellows!
This entire issue reminds me so much of February 1st, 1999. Some of you will understand that, some of you won't. For the ones who don't, then it's none of your business. That couldn't be stopped and neither will the phase-out of Amateur Radio be stopped.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG5JJ on August 31, 2003
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Denizens of Doom, Naysayers, Doomsday Merchants, Nannies of Nostradamus, Eve of Destruction Advocates, and Apocalyptic Antagonists:
"It's the end of the world as we know it! It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine!"
Those who don't understand the above, it's none-of-your-business..."
Give Me a Break! ;-}
73 KG5JJ (Mike)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by N1RWC on August 31, 2003
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To All those whining about not using a callsign for e-Ham.net....
why don't you go to the member Only area at ARRL.Com
You need a callsign to access it,
and you can bitch and moan all you want
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1CJS on August 31, 2003
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Ed,
You wrote: "It has little to do with Morse, actually. It has to do with the entire approach of American society that we have to start at the top,....."
I agree with you entirely. I have no real interest in the HF bands, I am going to upgrade to be able to do emergency communications with my state EOC from my area and to flesh out a VE team if possible. I would like to try VHF moonbounce too. So, I'm learning morse.
I do know how to read a meter and an o-scope, do actually repair the simpler problems with my rigs and also build and install antennas and co-ax cables. I know exactly what you mean about the people who pull it out of the box, plug it in and use it--I feel the same way.
However, I see many fine young hams who also want to learn. At this minute I am listening to one who is trying to fix his homemade j-pole 2M antenna. He asks good questions and listens to the answers. I learn just by listening to the hams who are advising him, asking questions of my own and offering my few observations. Isn't that what its all about?
I can just hope there are more out there like him. If there are, and those few keep up the ideals and basis of ham radio, I don't believe ham radio will ever disappear.
73, Chris
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA4DOU on August 31, 2003
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RM-10787 is now active on the FCC website and public responses are being filed. Now is the time to be heard on this issue.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on August 31, 2003
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Lets all get over to the fcc website and give our comments to the fcc about the code issue. There's six items there that need a "hams" opinion. For once and for all this fighting on these threads is about to come to an end. If you value your hambands voice your opinion to the fcc to keep the code. Dont listen to arrl they just want your money and more members. Arrl is supposed to be our voice...well take a look at recent years and see for yourselves. Does'nt look to many of us like they have been speaking for the ham community. Lets keep our hambands intact. We dont need 25 year veterans of cb that cant and wont be elmered. All hams need to come together right now. In 30 days or so it will be to late. And for all you inbreeds that want to pick at this comment and turn our hambands into another cb circus....Well....i cant say it here but you know what you can do.
73 to the hams
Ye Hear Me to the chickenbanders:
John WR8D
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1CJS on August 31, 2003
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Just to make it easy for all, and even though the petition numbers are on this website, here they are again:
RM-10781, RM-10782, RM-10783, RM-10784, RM-10785 and RM-10787.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 31, 2003
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> For all you that think it is not important to have Code, remember
> that this is a privilege with the purpose of building up
> knowledgeable operators for emergency and other important needs, not
> to serve the needs of individuals.
The amateur radio service has several purposes, of which that
is only one. Also, in practice, emergency communicators use phone or
digital modes, not Morse code.
> CW does serve a purpose in both emergency and in protection of our
> country. Any of you who have taken NBC (Nuclear, Biological and
> Chemical) training or understand the effects of electromagnetic
> pulse radiation will understand what I am talking about; the simpler
> the communications method, the more successful in time of need.
EMP weapons require high altitude detonation of thermonuclear
devices. They are not the weapon of choice among terrorists, who tend
to use far less high-tech means. (Think box cutters.) It is very
likely that an EMP burst would be the start of an apocolyptical
weapons exchange.
> Believe me if anyone thinks that there ICOM or Kenwood would
> live through a pulse will find their rig a case of dead parts.
Three kinds of electronic equipment would survive a pulse; modern
electronics that had been specifically hardened against pulse;
equipment stored in effectively shielded locations; and equipment not
relying on pulse sensitive semiconductors. Tube based radios, for
example, which are not merely used for CW, would have a good chance of
surviving. QRP rigs, which these days are almost all semiconductor
based, would not. Thus, more phone gear would likely survive than CW
gear.
> We live in the shadows of 9-11 and not to sound doom and gloom, it
> matters that we do have a communications structure in times of
> emergency.
We should remember that CW played no role in the 9-11 recovery.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC5LMF on August 31, 2003
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hell CW hasn't played a role since the sinking of the Titantic and even then no one answered the call...
lets face it... Motorola, Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu and many others are chumping at the bit for the CW requirement to go away and the requirment will go away becuase of them and their efforts and not a bunch of emails floating around about whats "right or wrong" with the requirement... and when it does go away .. and my money in on early nxt year, they can sale all these new HF'ers all this new equipment...
I sent and received Morse code for the US Army for 10 years at Field Station Berlin... and can send and receive normally faster then I can talk... but like some .. i see absolutely no need for it with the amatuer bands and will be glad when it is gone so we can get some fresh blood into airwaves...
I get so tired of hearing people say that by doing away with the Morse code portion of the test that you are dummying down the highly elite pool of prestigious ham operators.
Why don't we also force everyone who wants to upgrade from a dial-up internet access account to a high speed broadband connection take a mandatory 20wpm typing test whether they'll type letters or not.
So who is dummying down what?
So congratulations – you passed a Morse code test that your great grandfather would be proud of you for – maybe if the world collapses and starts all over again you can get a job as a telegraph operator for a railroad in the old west –but lets face it –you can send 5 wpm to a ham across the continent when in fact, the technology now allows you to send the entire Webster’s Dictionary in 3 minutes via gigahertz technology – so instead of looking forward – we are clutching something from the past to validate our existence.
Reminds me of the story I saw on the History Channel about how upset the Horse solders were when the mechanized vehicles came on board and stated that this was the end of the US Army and that motorized vehicles would never succeed…
I hope ten years from now my kids look back and laugh how we as a group based our technical proficiency on how well we rode the Morse Code horse and not drive the higher technology vehicles
Sam
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 31, 2003
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"AE6IP- no one gives a damn what you think on anything."
;)
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on August 31, 2003
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> I guarantee you, in 70 years, there will be no
> amateur radio. I predict that, in 25 years, it will
> be a memory.
That prediction has been made every year since 1914, and so far, every single person who has predicted the end of amateur radio has been wrong.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on August 31, 2003
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> You're a good man, W1RFI and deserve all the credit
> you get for your work on BPL and other technical
> areas. But you do neither yourself, nor the hobby
> any credit when you resort to ad hominem attack.
??? What ad-hominem attack? I offered a general observation about the nature of anonymous posts.
> This is, I think, the third time I've seen you make
> an innuendo attack on those you disagree with,
> rather than addressing the issue under discussion.
The issue I was discussing was a response to the fellow who asked what is wrong with anonymous posts. If you saw that as an attack, you are incorrect. Admittedly, it is a bit of "thread drift" from the original article, but that happens.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: MS/Word template for comments on RM-10787
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by AE6IP on August 31, 2003
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By the way, if you want to comment on RM-10787 and you use Microsoft Word, you can use
http://www.fogey.com/RM-10787-template.doc
replace the <blah> stuff with the appropriate data, type in your comment, and submit it through the FCC's Electronic Comment Filing System at
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on August 31, 2003
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> The issue I was discussing was a response to the
> fellow who asked what is wrong with anonymous posts. > If you saw that as an attack, you are incorrect.
> Admittedly, it is a bit of "thread drift" from the
> original article, but that happens.
Yes, I do find a comment that incorrectly lumps all anonymous posters together as if they all were the bad ones and neglects to mention that people using what is supposedly their own ID are just as foul to be an attack on the use of such handles.
You did not mean it as such. I apologize for overreacting.
However, I stand by my advice that one such as yourself who places so much emphasis on the credentials of the commentator should be more accurate and less inflamatory in the observations they make.
Those who post anonymously do not have the corner on bad behavior. Those who post under what appears to be their own ID may not be. Those who are who they claim to be have no corner on civilized behavior.
If you wish to condemn poor behavior, than condemn poor behavior, but don't tar an entire group of people with the condemnation when they don't deserve it.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KR4XH on August 31, 2003
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Some people reply with real callsigns.
Some people reply with "fake" callsigns.
Some people reply with "handles" and "aliases". It is their choice.
It's permitted.
These are the rules and the protocol of e-ham. Please adhere to the groundrules that we've agreed-upon. This is not 2m FM or 11m. The rules and protocols are different.
People complain that they "hear CB on the 2m repeaters". And they also hear it on 75m phone.
They we have the "all caps" idiots here on e-ham, who completely ignore regularly accepted forum protocol because "I'm a professional RTTY operator".. Bravo Sierra!!!!!!!!!
C'mon people... Get a life. It's real easy to "roll with the changes" when you're not the one that's having to roll...
73
don KR4XH
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5AU on September 1, 2003
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Germany keeps the code requirement !!!
Morse Code Exams Option Retained for Coming Years in DL.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC8VWM on September 1, 2003
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As Abraham Lincoln Says it: "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
KC8VWM
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 1, 2003
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> If you wish to condemn poor behavior, than condemn
> poor behavior, but don't tar an entire group of
> people with the condemnation when they don't deserve
> it.
I have said my piece about bad behavior on more than one occasion.
I was discussing credibility, not behavior, and a general trend that most people who post anonymously say things that I don't believe they would say if they had to assume personal responsibility by not posting anonymously.
That does not mean that only anonymous posters say bad thing.
That does not mean that all anonymous posters say bad things.
That does not meant that anonymous posters do not say good and useful things.
Credibility does not have the same dictionary meaning as behavior.
It may eliminate some of these misunderstandings if you read what is written.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KQ0T on September 1, 2003
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PERSPECTIVE PLEASE. The code/no-code debates are so unimportant when compared with the very real possibility of the complete loss of HF to BPL. From this discussion I get the feeling most of you are not aware of either the seriousness of the BPL threat or of it's real probability.
We need to focus on what's MOST important with all our collective resources. This is a political issue. The current administration would love to be able to point to nationwide broadband internet as an acheivement in the next election. The FCC chairman has expressed support for the idea of BPL and while there have been objections and cautions expressed in public comments the proponents are feeling pretty confident.
Echoing previous posts, find out about what BPL will mean to you and let's do the best we can to defeat this. While some of you don't like past ARRL actions I think you'll find that supporting their efforts on our behalf transcends past greviences. We must work together or we can say goodby to HF ham radio.
Links:http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/files/C63NovPLC.pdf), http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/
David McDaniel
W0LRK
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on September 1, 2003
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W1RFI says:
> I was discussing credibility, not behavior, and a general trend that
> most people who post anonymously say things that I don't believe they
> would say if they had to assume personal responsibility by not posting
> anonymously.
> [...]
> It may eliminate some of these misunderstandings if you read what is
> written.
You wrote:
>> I have noted, too, that most of the anonymous posts are worded such
>> that no individual would want to admit to having made them. Why
>> cast yourself in with that lot?
That is not a comment about credibility. It is a comment about
behavior. And by using "most", it is an ad hominem attack on the
majority of anonymous posters.
Your remark that "most people who post anonymously say things [...]
the would [not] say if they had to assume personal responsibility" is
a comment on behavior not credibility.
It may eliminate some of these misunderstandings if you read what you
have written.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CURMUDGEON on September 1, 2003
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Ed, W1RFI, please excuse AE6IP, he seems to need to have the last word. Whats really got him rattled is that FISTS has come out with a proposal to keep and upgrade cw, not to mention that its been revealed that he has only been a ham for a year.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AB7JK on September 1, 2003
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To those who respond so negatively to my posts: You're the ones I'm referring to - otherwise my words wouldn't bother you so much - so go ahead and brood, seeth, and conjure up all those sick images in your head about what you would like to do to people you disagree with. Watch them multiply - take that trip. Yeah you.
Cw issue: Why waste so much energy on an issue that's so unimportant? How about disputing relevant issues? Too scary? No moral courage? Hello - anyone alive out there?
Tired of psychotics in Florida
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 1, 2003
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>> I have noted, too, that most of the anonymous posts
>> are worded such that no individual would want to
>> admit to having made them. Why cast yourself in
>> with that lot?
> That is not a comment about credibility. It is a
> comment about behavior. And by using "most", it is
> an ad hominem attack on the majority of anonymous
> posters.
It was addressed to the majority of anonymous posters that say things that are worded such that no individual would want to admit to having made them. Anonymous posters that make constructive comments would not feel "attacked" by what I said. And it is my guess that you are probably the only one who saw my general observation as an "attack," unless you are defining attack as all that which does not agree with you.
> Your remark that "most people who post anonymously
> say things [...] they would [not] say if they had to
> assume personal responsibility" is a comment on
> behavior not credibility.
You are free to believe in whatever you choose, but I do not give as much credibility to anonymous posts as I do to those that are attributed. Are you really telling us that you do not use someone's behavior as part of your judgement about the truth in what they say?
> It may eliminate some of these misunderstandings if
> you read what you have written.
Even more useful might be not to read into what I have written. . .
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 1, 2003
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People that keep bracketing other posters comments, are not helping ham radio's unity.
One must be really insecure to keep bracket quaoting, and either shoot down or have to re-explain their opinion.
However one of the bracket quoaters gave the best advice! IGNORE THEM! I SHALL!
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on September 1, 2003
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> It was addressed to the majority of anonymous posters that say things
> that are worded such that no individual would want to admit to having
> made them. Anonymous posters that make constructive comments would not
> feel "attacked" by what I said. And it is my guess that you are
> probably the only one who saw my general observation as an "attack,"
> unless you are defining attack as all that which does not agree with
> you.
You wrote 'most anonymous post are' previously; now you write "most
who...." Well, which is it you meant? Those two phrases describe quiet
different groups of people.
By the way, there are plenty of comments around here with call signs
attached to them making the same sorts of remarks, so you're obviously
wrong about the the comment about responsibility.
> You are free to believe in whatever you choose, but I do not give as
> much credibility to anonymous posts as I do to those that are
> attributed.
Do you really give more credibility to thoe hate filled posts with
call signs attached than you do to reasoned comments from people not
using call signs?
> Are you really telling us that you do not use someone's behavior as
> part of your judgement about the truth in what they say?
In an online forum, yes. The only thing that matters is the point
made. On the internet, we're all anonymous.
> > It may eliminate some of these misunderstandings if
> > you read what you have written.
> Even more useful might be not to read into what I have written. . .
It never stops amazingly that those who speak the loudest about
responsibility for their words are so often the first to blame the
reader when they are misunderstood.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on September 1, 2003
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> PERSPECTIVE PLEASE. The code/no-code debates are so unimportant when
> compared with the very real possibility of the complete loss of HF to
> BPL. From this discussion I get the feeling most of you are not aware
> of either the seriousness of the BPL threat or of it's real
> probability.
We're just bikeshedding; it's no big deal.
From http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/bikeshedding.html
[originally BSD, now common] Technical disputes over minor,
marginal issues conducted while more serious ones are being
overlooked. The implied image is of people arguing over what
color to paint the bicycle shed while the house is not finished.
It's not really from the BSD team, it's from the sociologist
Parkinson. CW is a simple topic, one on which there are legitimate
differences of opinion, and one that's easy to discuss -- so we spend
time on it.
BPL is a complex topic, and the only thing we need to say about it is
'yuk' and then go write appropriate letters, comments and email. Most
of us can do everything we can about it in an afternoon, and then
we're done.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by RADIO123US on September 1, 2003
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K1CJS, I thought you said you were permanently leaving this board ??? What happened ??? You still haven't passed the code test that you claimed you were going to take ???
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KR4XH on September 1, 2003
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WA2JJH,
Sound advice... To be heeded.
73
don KR4XH
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AE6IP on September 1, 2003
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> Whats really got him rattled is that FISTS has come
> out with a proposal to keep and upgrade cw, not to
> mention that its been revealed that he has only been
> a ham for a year.
D00D, I've got some bad news for you. I "revealed" I've only been a ham for a year quiet some time ago on this forum. You gotta keep up, man, your trolling chops are really slipping.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 1, 2003
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Perhaps if one really does not like ones opinion, would it not be nicer to paraphase.
Rather than using arrows, brackets of exact quotes.
Shows more creativity. Another advantage of paraphrasing is that it does not get so personal.
Everyones view is important. I could care less of callsign, or not.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KA4KOE on September 1, 2003
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GO MIKE JJH!!!!
Good question: "After the dust settles what's left?"
Different Answer: "A lifeless wasteland, clickingly deadly with ionizing radiation, forever poisoned, forever uninhabitable. The only company left is the hardy cockroach, seemingly impervious to the fatal rays."
HOW'S THAT?
Philip KA4KOE
CW Snob
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CAPO2 on September 2, 2003
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BON JOURNO. iTA WOULDA be so a gooda if a de RFI don putsa mucha efforta into BPL. as much as he busta heads
in threads.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 2, 2003
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> BON JOURNO. iTA WOULDA be so a gooda if a de RFI don
> putsa mucha efforta into BPL. as much as he busta
> heads in threads.
And I will gladly let that be the last word. :-)
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1MKF on September 2, 2003
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If the testing and licensing process would just pass those capable of operating in a legal and correct manner THEN operators could learn what they need (CW, electronics, antenna design, etc.) in order to enjoy the aspect of the hobby they desire.
Most HAMs just want operators to:
1. follow the FCC rules
2. follow accepted practices
Testing should concentrate on those two items.
MarkF
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on September 2, 2003
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Whats left...well millions of cbers on our hf freq's. Doing the same idiot crap that they are doing on 2 meters at this very moment. These are 25 year veterans of chickenband. They are unelmerable they come into amateur radio all ready knowing more than most of us.."they actually say this" Most of us will be driven to digital or the cw bands to get away from the filth and riff raff. But the arrl will have all kinds of new members and more members mean more "bucks". That is all its going to be about in the end. We'd all better be looking to the "chickenband" problem which is upon us now. This will kill amateur radio as most of us know it. Fcc is hearing comments as you read this. If you want to save amateur radio get over to the fcc site...look up RM-10787 tell them you want to keep the code. We have less than 30 days to deal with this problem..Broad Band over the power lines is just a little farther down the road...but this code-nocode RM-10787 will decide if we are even going to have bands to worry about.
73
John WR8D
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on September 2, 2003
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I almost forgot...Before you start picking at my comment Ed...i'd like to buy you for what you're really worth...and then sell you for what you "think" you're worth. Most of us know what is going on and where to put the blame...but most folks just dont want to get in here and have to put up with all the bs. So suck it up and do something for us "hams" for a change without thinking about endorsements etc. The ham community is watching.
John Blackburn WR8D
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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Gods, the horse looks to be at the skeletal stage!
Regardless, if the CW test is taken away or not, do you actually think that the American public or anybody except hams will even care? Sure some techs will upgrade, but I think that's about it. I can't see where some hams think that 'hordes' of the unwashed masses will suddenly flock to HF, let alone ham radio in general. Again, do you really think anybody even cares? 98% of the American public doesn't know what ham radio is, nor do they care. Why should they when they have the internet, cell phones, Play Stations 2's, FRS, PDA's, etc, etc to play with? And please stop with the 11 meter comments. No, I'm not a CB'er and have never been on 11 meters, but I don't see where people get off thinking the CB hordes will suddenly sweep into the HF bands,either.
We're not debating about Presidential candidates or the war in Iraq. This is lowly old ham radio! Get your head out of the clouds and plant you feet firmly on the ground. Now breath deeply. It'll be OK, I promise.
W1PMC
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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Gods, the horse looks to be at the skeletal stage!
Regardless, if the CW test is taken away or not, do you actually think that the American public or anybody except hams will even care? Sure some techs will upgrade, but I think that's about it. I can't see where some hams think that 'hordes' of the unwashed masses will suddenly flock to HF, let alone ham radio in general. Again, do you really think anybody even cares? 98% of the American public doesn't know what ham radio is, nor do they care. Why should they when they have the internet, cell phones, Play Stations 2's, FRS, PDA's, etc, etc to play with? And please stop with the 11 meter comments. No, I'm not a CB'er and have never been on 11 meters, but I don't see where people get off thinking the CB hordes will suddenly sweep into the HF bands,either.
We're not debating about Presidential candidates or the war in Iraq. This is lowly old ham radio! Get your head out of the clouds and plant you feet firmly on the ground. Now breath deeply. It'll be OK, I promise.
W1PMC
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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Gods, the horse looks to be at the skeletal stage!
Regardless, if the CW test is taken away or not, do you actually think that the American public or anybody except hams will even care? Sure some techs will upgrade, but I think that's about it. I can't see where some hams think that 'hordes' of the unwashed masses will suddenly flock to HF, let alone ham radio in general. Again, do you really think anybody even cares? 98% of the American public doesn't know what ham radio is, nor do they care. Why should they when they have the internet, cell phones, Play Stations 2's, FRS, PDA's, etc, etc to play with? And please stop with the 11 meter comments. No, I'm not a CB'er and have never been on 11 meters, but I don't see where people get off thinking the CB hordes will suddenly sweep into the HF bands,either.
We're not debating about Presidential candidates or the war in Iraq. This is lowly old ham radio! Get your head out of the clouds and plant you feet firmly on the ground. Now breath deeply. It'll be OK, I promise.
W1PMC
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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Gods, the horse looks to be at the skeletal stage!
Regardless, if the CW test is taken away or not, do you actually think that the American public or anybody except hams will even care? Sure some techs will upgrade, but I think that's about it. I can't see where some hams think that 'hordes' of the unwashed masses will suddenly flock to HF, let alone ham radio in general. Again, do you really think anybody even cares? 98% of the American public doesn't know what ham radio is, nor do they care. Why should they when they have the internet, cell phones, Play Stations 2's, FRS, PDA's, etc, etc to play with? And please stop with the 11 meter comments. No, I'm not a CB'er and have never been on 11 meters, but I don't see where people get off thinking the CB hordes will suddenly sweep into the HF bands,either.
We're not debating about Presidential candidates or the war in Iraq. This is lowly old ham radio! Get your head out of the clouds and plant you feet firmly on the ground. Now breath deeply. It'll be OK, I promise.
W1PMC
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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Gods, the horse looks to be at the skeletal stage!
Regardless, if the CW test is taken away or not, do you actually think that the American public or anybody except hams will even care? Sure some techs will upgrade, but I think that's about it. I can't see where some hams think that 'hordes' of the unwashed masses will suddenly flock to HF, let alone ham radio in general. Again, do you really think anybody even cares? 98% of the American public doesn't know what ham radio is, nor do they care. Why should they when they have the internet, cell phones, Play Stations 2's, FRS, PDA's, etc, etc to play with? And please stop with the 11 meter comments. No, I'm not a CB'er and have never been on 11 meters, but I don't see where people get off thinking the CB hordes will suddenly sweep into the HF bands,either.
We're not debating about Presidential candidates or the war in Iraq. This is lowly old ham radio! Get your head out of the clouds and plant you feet firmly on the ground. Now breath deeply. It'll be OK, I promise.
W1PMC
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 2, 2003
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WR8D, WOW! You do not pull any punches. I respect that.
IMHO...You speak for the silient majority!
TNX & 73 MIKE
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K4TUX on September 2, 2003
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Very nice guys! Let everyone get in fight about code verses no-code and beat each other into the ground when we have HUGE issue on the horizon that WILL MAKE THE ENTIRE ISSUE OF THE CODE AND HF PRIVLEDGES MOOT !!! BPL is comming if the big corporate money has anything to say about it and, according to the tests I have read and other knowledgable people I have talked with, WILL EFFECTIVELY END OUR HOBBY BELOW VHF. This entire article started as an attempt to make us realize that we are going to have to work together and put our smaller issues aside if we are going to hope to get the message out about BPL and the damage it will do!
Maybe, just maybe, all of us could pull our hands away from each other's throats long enough to realize that if we do not let everyone we know, as well as the FCC and our representives in Washington, know about the effect that BPL will have on radio communications and the tremendous potential for interference with other equipment as well. (Think your neighbor gets mad when he thinks that your ham transmissions are messing up his TV now, just wait until the power company starts sending broadband tansmissions at high power over miles and miles of wire!!! Bet you are the first person he levels the finger at and you can bet he is not going to believe you about anything then! Mean while, you might as well throw away your HF rig...you certainly aren't going to be hearing any DX on it !!) If we don't stop arguing over the details of our hobby and address BPL as a unified front, EHam and other internet sites are going to be the only place we are going to be carrying out conversations beyond the horizon :-( !!
73
Brian Clark
K4TUX
P.S. Yes, I have voiced my concerns to the FCC and my reps.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on September 2, 2003
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To W1PMC: Well some of us live in areas where we have already seen some of the as you say "hordes" arrive. A few years ago when the code got dropped to 5wpm folks got a taste of the smarter of the "hordes". These as i say were the smarter ones. They are unelmerable. We've tried...they came into the hobby smarter than us hams. They get on our 2 meter machines and use cb handles and 10 codes and laugh at us when we try to talk to them. We shut the machines off for 24 hours and they come right back. There's not a thing we can do about it...but it just sounds like pure ole cb. Now remember what i said...these were the smarter of the "hordes" wait untill the hf spectrum is open to the hardcore cber. If you're not blind and deaf it should be easy for you to find a taste of this either on hf or 2 meters. When did any of us ever hear an extra class operator tuning his rig by whistling into the mic. I never did untill most the cbers that wanted to be extra class got upgraded 2 years ago. Before that time if you got in the extra class portion of any band you better have your i's dotted and your t's crossed.
73
John Blackburn
WR8D
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CURMUDGEON on September 2, 2003
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At this stage of the game, just what do you think can be done about BPL that hasn't been done?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1PMC on September 2, 2003
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To w8rd:
Through my job I'm able to work/monitor many repeaters in the New England area. I'm not doubting what you say has happened in your area, but I've as yet to hear what you're talking about happen on any of the repeaters I monitor.
Also, I've only been licensed for a few years, but have been an avid SWL for at least 15 years. Maybe I'm listening in the wrong place, but I don't think that there's any more QRM now on the HF bands than there was in the 80's.
But then what do I know.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AK4P on September 2, 2003
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FYI
I did an informal count of comments on FCC RM-10787. It looks like the count is about 2.5:1 against keeping Morse Code as a requirement for licensing. Just thought you'd like to know.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W5UX on September 2, 2003
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About the survey. Why don't we take a survey of school children to see how long summer vacation should be? It is only human nature. Maybe we should take a survey to determine if we should divide up the wealth so as to be fair to all. The lazy ones usually outnumber the industrious. Welcome to welfare radio.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KZ0ZZ on September 2, 2003
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As an avid internet user, I am 100% for BPL. Given a choice between ham radio and BPL, BPL is the obvious choice. Cw is outdated, HF is outdated, ham radio is outdated. In a few years it will not matter.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD3JF on September 2, 2003
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You said it right Russell... I am not so sure that dropping CW is the answer although I understand the reasoning. I would rather have a 15 WPM test and 100-150 questions to study for the 50 on the test. I think 800 questions to study for the Extra class is ridculous. And it all happened because the code was dropped. For me it was dropped because I had an Advanced license. I got my Extra a couple of years ago so I don't have to face the 800! Now I realize that Paramedics have 1000?s to study but ham radio is a hobby or did I miss something??? LOL!
Paul Gates, KD3JF
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by K1CJS on September 2, 2003
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W1PMC wrote:
".....I don't think that there's any more QRM now on the HF bands than there was in the 80's."
You're most likely right. I travel around New England as well and don't hear much crowding on the HF bands or the 2M or 70 CM bands either. Oh, I forgot--some people only listen during contests when the bands are crowded.
"But then what do I know."
You know as much as some of the posters on these boards--and more than others! ;-))
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AK4P on September 2, 2003
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Just an observation....
I looked at most of the comments filed on FCC RM-10787. Thought the No-code comments outnumber the Pro-code comments almost 3 to 1, most of the No-code comments say something like "Get rid of Morse Code and GIVE me HF." Very few say much more. I needn't say much more, either.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by BUBBA4CW on September 2, 2003
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YO... BUBBA HERE...
They should open up all the bands for everyone...
No Tests !!!! at all
Then I can talk to all my relatives all over...
and without one of them there LIN-E-ARS...
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KG4OOA on September 2, 2003
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I agree fully with WA2JJH. There is a silent majority out there that hasn't been heard. Only a small percentage of active hams waste their a large part of their time here swearing and name calling
I have been staying out of this web site because I feel that it is a sham. Just keep the hit meter spinning so advertisers will spend money and keeping the cronies at ARRL happy.
Now for some humor:
THIS GUY GOES TO A DR. HE HAS A 150 IQ HE COMPLAINS HE IS TOO SMART. PEOPLE ARE INTIMIDATED BY HIS SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE.
THE DR PUTS THE MAN IN A SPECIAL MACHINE THAT KILLS BRAIN CELLS.
AFTER 5 TREATMENTS THE DR ASKS....DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED. THE MAN REPLIES BACK 10-4 GOOD BUDDY!!!
I liked it.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD5YDY on September 2, 2003
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AS of today at least English, German, and Dutch tourists to the U.S. can use HF without knowing code through RECIPROCAL LICENSING. So wouldn't it make sense to allow U.S. hams those privileges. This is our land, the land of the free. Why should we get less than visitors to our great land?
For those that say "Anything you get for free ain't worth nothin'", I say, the most valuable gift for all eternity is offered for free. We can do nothing to earn Salvation. It is a free gift.
It's like the Brooks & Dunn country hit "Red Dirt Road". He learned that heaven wasn't just for high achievers. Maybe some day soon the HF bands will become a privilege for me. (I plan to pass the code first part of next month but I wish I didn't have to jump that hoop to enjoy the hobby). Isn't it just possible that the technicians that have waited for so long to operate HF bands would respect the air ways and operate like high class amateur operators? Why do so many automatically assume the bands will be trashed because we don't know code? It would be a wonderful privilege.
When that happens, I hope getting on HF will be worth the long wait. I sure hope most of the hams on this forum stay off the air and fill the forums with their anger and hate. Then I'll have a chance to meet hams worth being called an amateur radio operator. No one exuding the kind of ugliness on this forum could possibly be a real ham.
KD5YDY
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 2, 2003
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> I have been staying out of this web site because I
> feel that it is a sham. Just keep the hit meter
> spinning so advertisers will spend money and keeping
> the cronies at ARRL happy.
I am curious; what do you think that ARRL will to with those ad and dues revenues?
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KR4XH on September 2, 2003
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KG4OOA,
I liked the humor portion of your post! But IMHO the bit about the ARRL is without foundation...
Elaborate if you please, or else just send another humorous snippet!
73
don KR4XH
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 2, 2003
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ED, I think people get the most annoyed is that you always think you are right. You are the self appointed guardian of HAM RADIO.
Your practice of using""SLINGS, ARROWS, AND DIRECT quotation of anybody that dares to disagree with you is
annoying to many.
You do not have to defend everthing you say.
PEOPLE DO HAVE A TOTAL RIGHT TO HAVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT OPINION OF YOURS.
We all know you are ARRL BRASS. I could give a rats behind about that.
The President of the ARRL seems to be more level headed. I know I did NOT renew QST, because of you.
I would rather send a check for $10.000 to the right elected official, then send $40 to the ARRL.
I am not the only one that feels that way.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 2, 2003
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ED, I think people get the most annoyed is that you always think you are right. You are the self appointed guardian of HAM RADIO.
Your practice of using""SLINGS, ARROWS, AND DIRECT quotation of anybody that dares to disagree with you is
annoying to many.
You do not have to defend everthing you say.
PEOPLE DO HAVE A TOTAL RIGHT TO HAVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT OPINION OF YOURS.
We all know you are ARRL BRASS. I could give a rats behind about that.
The President of the ARRL seems to be more level headed. I know I did NOT renew QST, because of you.
I would rather send a check for $10.000 to the right elected official, then send $40 to the ARRL.
I am not the only one that feels that way.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 3, 2003
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> Your practice of using""SLINGS, ARROWS, AND DIRECT
> quotation of anybody that dares to disagree with you
> is annoying to many.
In every newgroup and discussion board I participate on, quoting the part of the post one is discussing is considered good netiquette. Not do so is annoys more people than not. I have seen many posts here where no one can figure out just what or who the poster is responding to.
"Always right?" I think not. If you disagree with something I say and believe me to be wrong, say so, and say why. I will learn from the discussion, as will you and all those reading it.
> We all know you are ARRL BRASS. I could give a rats
> behind about that.
I have explained no small number of times that unless I am posting about the ARRL Lab or RFI program or something else under my professional responsibility, I am posting personally. Did you miss that?
> The President of the ARRL seems to be more level
> headed. I know I did NOT renew QST, because of you.
Am I really to believe that you didn't renew your membership and are witholding your support from important ARRL programs because you think that I think I am always right and that I quote people when I respond to them?
> I would rather send a check for $10.000 to the right
> elected official, then send $40 to the ARRL.
Did you?
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by CW559 on September 3, 2003
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Ed, what is your annual salary from the ARRL? What are your job duties besides posting all the time on the amateur radio websites? Have any of the salaried people at the ARRL donated a year's salary yet to the "BPL fight"?
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 3, 2003
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I do not use direct quotes with arrows. I Think it is a cheap shot.
However, YES. I DID NOT RENEW QST BECAUSE OF ONE OF YOUR LAMBASTINGS 6 MONTHS AGO!
Yes I do know a few elected officials, that I have more faith in than YOU!
I do send contributions to elected officials I KNOW, to answer your nosey vitrioloic qustion!
I do not believe 40 BUX to the ARRL will accomplish anything.
The president of the ARRL is more humble.He states up front all opinions are his. He does not bother with caustic lambastings.
You always rub people the wrong way, if they do not agree with you. Just check out the thread battle you had with another poster in this thread. YOU will always hold on to your position, even when wrong!
Your rude in general. MANY, have emailed me directly, and said they will not renew. You are not doing any meaningfull service by lambasting other hams here!
Ok, Maybe netiquette allows direct quotes in arrows.
Many find it rude. NOTICE, not once did I QUOTE YOU OR MENTION YOUR NAME OR CALL! That is MY opinion of being decent!
I AM IGNORING YOU FROM NOW ON. However watch how this guy will systematicly pick my post apart!
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 3, 2003
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> Ed, what is your annual salary from the ARRL?
Most people will not answer that question, and neither will I.
> What are your job duties besides posting all the
> time on the amateur radio websites?
Posting on amateur radio websites is not my job at all. My job is to run the Lab, overseeing product testing and the other Lab activities. My personal work of late has been about 60-80 hours a week on http://www.arrl.org/bpl type matters.
> Have any of the salaried people at the ARRL donated
> a year's salary yet to the "BPL fight"?
I would think not. Does the fact that I could approch half of that in donated time count?
73,
Ed, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by BUBBA4CW on September 3, 2003
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Gee... If I wanted to hear all this fighting and complaining...
All I have to do is turn on my ra-did-io...
Flip to channel 19 or 17...
This post almost sounds like my CB... hehehe....
10-4, good buddy... I'm puttin' da hamma down...
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by AK4P on September 3, 2003
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W1RFI
I haven't had the opportunity Ed, to say thank you for the work you've done on BPL. Hope it helps! 73, de AK4P
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC0PBC on September 3, 2003
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(This turned out to be long, sorry)
What's the matter with quoting? Who am I talking to? What am I talking about?
Quoting from a person's previous message is very common practice on the Internet. It helps tie the conversation together, making it easier to follow.
I plow through hundreds, sometimes thousands of emails and other online correspondence per day. I don't have the time to try to figure out the context of a given message. If it's not obvious to me, I'm very quick with the "next" button.
In *my* opinion, trying to carry on a conversation without providing appropriate clues to put the message in context (or telling others to do the same) is indicative of a few things:
- you're new to the Internet and are unfamiliar with standard ways of doing things here (no biggie, we all have to start somewhere - but where do you get off telling others to comply to your desires rather than adapting to standard practice on the 'net? When in Rome...)
- you're afraid to be held accountable for what you say in public fora (if this is the case, just put a little more thought into what you say in the first place)
- you're so self-absorbed that you either think everyone else will automatically *know* the context of your message because your messages are that important or don't have any problem imposing upon the time of others; forcing them to put in extra time to figure out the context of your message (just plain rude, in *my* opinion, 'nuf said)
73, Gary
Disclaimers:
* Posted in the suggested, friendly, non-quoted style for your comfort.
* Nothing in this message is intended to imply that I agree with you or whoever it is that you're replying to regarding the *real* subject at hand in this thread.
* Sorry for the OT post everyone, but it struck a bit of a nerve when I saw someone claiming that someone else was rude for following common (and appreciated by me) Internet posting practice.
* Sorry again for posting this OT message here in the thread; I would have sent a direct email, but I couldn't find an email address in the profiles here or on QRZ. Not sure how the "many other people" were able to send email, but I took a couple quick stabs and didn't want to spend any more time on the effort. Something tells me a callsign@arrl.net email would bounce.
* For the record (and back on topic), I have mixed feelings about CW. I recognize the importance of CW and I'm working on it as I get time, but will I stop working on it if they drop the requirements? Yeah, maybe.
Would CW make me a better operator? Nope. Have I heard General and above operators that were poor operators? Yep.
I recognize that not knowing CW makes me useless in that particular mode of operation. I also recognize that I have the ability, knowledge, and equipment to operate in *other* useful modes that many CW operators do not.
I have yet to meet a ham that has the knowledge, skill, and equipment to operate in every single mode available to us. This is supposed to be a community, and as such we should work together to *complement* each others' skills and abilities, not look down our nose at someone who's "not as good as you".
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 3, 2003
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OK GARY. You make a good point. I AM MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT I WAS WRONG!
THE ONLY exception is to ONE HAM in paticular that is an ARRL so called leader. I do not like abuse of a leadership position. MANY AGREE!
His M.O, is a chronic pattern of lambastings.
I have been on the internet when it was not even called that. I remember 300 buad as the max speed!
OK, yes one should be held accountable. However this seems to be a chronic. I still am not thrilled with arrow quoting. Shows lack of creativity. It would be nice when used with integrety! IMHO, This one ham likes caustic lambastings of those that disagree.
If you look over the thread, it went down hill and as YOU pointed out....WAY OUT OF THE SCOPE!
I agree whole heartly to stick to the topic. However If one starts a fight with me, I at first pull the punches. Then when I know I MADE MY POINT, I IGNORE!
Not the first time this one particular ham has done this over a few years. I GUESS you can say HE STRUCK A NERVE WITH ME AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS!
I STAND CORRECTED with the exception of one!
73 MIKE
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KR4XH on September 3, 2003
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WA2JJH,
My e-mail is on eham. PLS send some pointers(or links) on lasers in communication, as it seems to be specialty of yours.
I'm pretty-much "in the dark" about them...
That's "what's left after the dust settles?"
The same HAM hobby that existed before the dust storm...
And it will likely endure long after I'm in the ground.
I apologise that this is a semi-off-topic post.
But I hope that I made my point....
73
don KR4XH
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD5YDY on September 3, 2003
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If W1RFI is spending 40-80 hrs a week on BPI issues, how was he able to post ELEVEN messages on this single thread alone between Aug 29-Sep 3? Yes, weekend and holiday might give him free time to trowel the ham forums. But isn't ELEVEN postings on a single thread OVERKILL. Wonder how many postings I could find over same period of time on other threads and other forums? Maybe lack of rest explains his irrational comments. He needs to take some time off from work at ARRL and from the ham forums and get some rest. Then he'll be able to think before stirring up the stench for all of us to read.
Just an observation. That's all.
KD5YDY
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Looking for a compromise?
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by KR4XH on September 3, 2003
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OK, here's a compromise...
http://www.qrz.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=3&t=43128
My apologies to eham.net, but this is a petition I could really support...
73
don KR4XH
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by WA2JJH on September 4, 2003
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Don. The compromise posted on QRZ seems seems reasonable. It is one of the better compromises I have seen so far.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 4, 2003
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> If W1RFI is spending 40-80 hrs a week on BPI issues,
> how was he able to post ELEVEN messages on this
> single thread alone between Aug 29-Sep 3?
Let's see -- 11 messages, maybe about 20 minutes, if I am typing on a slow day. :-) During that time, at work, I responded to about 100 emails a day, so 11 messages as I set around my computer mostly early AM or late evening is really not all that impressive.
> Wonder how many postings I could find over same
> period of time on other threads and other forums?
Probably a similar number. Do you think that eham.net or other forums should limit the number of posts made by individuals? It is common in the back-and-forth that is an on-line discussion for multiple posts to occur. I am curious; there are other folks who have made multiple posts to some threads. Have you posted any criticism about them, or am I somehow special to you?
> Maybe lack of rest explains his irrational comments.
> He needs to take some time off from work at ARRL and
> from the ham forums and get some rest. Then he'll be
> able to think before stirring up the stench for all
> of us to read.
If you disagree with me, say so, explain why you think I am wrong and offer an alternative. That seems a bit more useful than criticizing someone for working too hard to try to help amateur radio. . .
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KC0PBC on September 4, 2003
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I haven't had a chance to read their official proposal, but I like the outline I see on QRZ. Well thought out, IMO.
I'm not sure if they cover it or not, but one idea I had (to help round out the knowledge tests) is to add a required EmComm element to the exam.
Often, it seems, we play the "what until there's an emergency, then you'll wish we were around" card whenever something comes up that threatens our bands -- but yet there isn't anything solid about emergency communications in our tests. Why is that? An EmComm element in our exam requirements would add a little bite to the "emergency card".
There will always be operators that sit on their thumbs until an emergency strikes. So be it. But if they were forced to study EmComm to get their license, they might have a better clue (and maybe a book laying around) when the scat goes splat.
I hope I can say this without trivializing the importance of CW -- but in this day and age, EmComm has gotten sophisticated enough to justify actually learning about it rather than just thinking you can "wing it". It's more important to have EmComm as a required (across the board) element than it is to have CW required across the board (HF) in my opinion.
73, Gary
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by WA2JJH on September 4, 2003
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In order not to have a mess after the dust, I thought one other thing could have been added to the QRZ proposal.
Give the tech's full HF phone on 10M, with 1KW input.
Why? Because the freebanders are INFILITRATING 10M more everyday. Only the FCC will have the final say on what element is needed for a GENERAL TICKET.
10M phone can be monitored by V.E.'S OR O.O'S to see if a HF VOICE BAND with out a code requirement works or not! This way we will see once and for all, if CW is not required. If it works on 10M, which is under used, maybe it will be a test of what will happen if element 1 is eleminated for all HF.
I have come to accept that some will not practice to pass element 1. Element 1 is still in the QRZ proposal.
This leaves future time to decide. Perhaps then the fighting between NO CODE vs CODE can be ''on hold"" for now. No more division of hams.
BPL? Maybe the BPL companies should have to deal with ANY HAMS CLAIM of a raised noise floor. The BPL companies should be forced to gave the ham ULTRA TIGHT bandpass filter's for each ham band.
A low brow approach would be to raise max out to 5KW PEP.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 4, 2003
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> BPL? Maybe the BPL companies should have to deal
> with ANY HAMS CLAIM of a raised noise floor.
Under the Part 15 rules, if an unlicensed emitter causes "harmful interfernce," the Part-15 device operator must correct that interference. The hard part is deciding what is harmful interference. Merely hearing a signal in "our" bands is not harmful interference. After all, how would we feel if the NTIA/gov't folks said, "We hear those hams on 5.3 MHz, so they gotta' get out?" If we were to see a 10 dB increase in our noise floors, it is not harmful interference if we are the ops who exchange S9+30 dB reports on 75 meters. My QRP buddies and I could see a dB of noise increase as interference, but will the FCC protect operators who want to work my HF 10 milliwatt station.
> The BPL companies should be forced to gave the ham
> ULTRA IGHT bandpass filter's for each ham band.
Unfortunately, it THEY who need to filter the ham bands. Once radiated, there is no practical way to filter it. To some extent, filtering may reduce the amount of noise heard from some BPL signals vis a vis some amateur signals, but they will not essentially help improve the communications effectiveness of the station -- the degradation of the noise floor will still impact that station and decrease its operating range.
> A low brow approach would be to raise max out to 5KW
> PEP.
There are some hams who claim to be doing that already. :-) Unfortunately, many hams choose to use less than 1500-watts for ecomomic or social reasons, and more power would translate to more TVI and interference to other consumer devices.
73,
Ed, W1RFI
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 4, 2003
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Have to update. The power companies WOULD have to NOTCH
out all the ham and other important freqs, all though out the 7200VAC transmission stage.
As for the high tension stage 300,000VAC, that is a tall order.
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WA2JJH on September 4, 2003
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Posted By WA2JJH
OK ED, I concede that a simple solution is extremly problematic. You have more experience with this.
I wish there was enough time in the day to be fully up to speed on BPL.
Getting my phd. in bio-medical engineering comes first!
We have had our arguments on unrelated issue's. That is the past, as far as I AM concerned.
I am all ears on what your extensive BPL experimentation has come up with! Yes, the power companies are an extreme force to be dealt with.
From any hams viewpoint, the power companies should filter for ham freqs. at pole end. When power lines get stepped down from the industry standard of 7200VAC to the industry standard EDISON 3 wire 220VAC stage.
We both know the RF engineering to do such that is possible. Extremly expensive for the BPL providers.
I am sure the power companies will do thier best to
weasel out of doing anything! Something like asking the FCC for some type of exception. Of course they will have thier RF engineers say the opposite of what may happen.
HEY, the power companies are still playing ''THE BLAME GAME'' on the blackout!
73 MIKE
I would love it if you started a BPL thread on EHAM.
I am sure just about any active ham would!
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by W1RFI on September 4, 2003
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> Have to update. The power companies WOULD have to
> NOTCH out all the ham and other important freqs, all
> though out the 7200VAC transmission stage.
That notching is being done by Home Plug, Home Phone Networking Alliance and the VDSL committees. For an example, see:
http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/homeplug/homeplug_ARRL.pdf
One BPL manufacturer, Current Technologies, uses the HomePlug specification. Except for the 5.3 MHz, which is not notched, it has less interference potential than un-notched systems. However, hams that live in very RF-quiet neighborhoods, hams with high-gain antennas or hams with antennas close to electrical wiring (including indoor antennas) would need more notching than the HomePlug specification calls for. "Notching" is almost a misnomer, because it is accomplished by not using any carriers in or immediately adjacent to the ham bands. By my estimation, about 60 dB of notching would make a serious -- but not complete -- dent in the interference potential.
I know that one of the other manufacturers is looking seriously at ways to prevent harmful interference. Most, however, are standing by the industry claim that BPL does not pose an interference risk.
> As for the high tension stage 300,000VAC, that is a tall order.
Fortunately, BPL is not being run on the high-tension lines. It is a neighborhood distribution, intended for the last mile. The "PLC" that is run on the high-voltage lines is below 500 kHz and is intended for the utility company to control its equipment.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD5ALU on September 4, 2003
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CURMUDGEON said:
CW is *not* "just another mode.
CW *is* ham radio.
What if my old cousin Sam had never invented Morse Code. I guess amateur radio would never have evolved then.
CW is a mode of operation just like SSB, RTTY, PSK and so many others. Instead of dropping code, lets require testing of proficiency in every mode. That will even it out for every body. Maybe one would argue “Oh, but I don't have a computer so I don't use those modes. Why should I test on them?”
I am an Extra class operator. An Extra “lite” to some of you. I received my Extra ticket after the code requirement was lowered. I did get my HF privileges when it required 7wpm for the code test. I guess that make me better than those who did it at 5wpm but not as good as those who did it at 20wpm.
I have a degree in electronics. Do I repair my own equipment? If it is a simple repair, Yes. But I have a full time job that requires a lot of overtime. I have 3 kids and a wife. I barely have time for the hobby. Building and difficult repairs are out of the question. I also don’t have the equipment to make repairs on the equipment that I own. Do you OT’s all have oscilispes, logic programming devices, and SMT soldering machines in your shack? I envy you then. I am not against the Old Timers. I hope to be one some day. But please don’t rant and rave because we didn’t take the same exam you did. Be an Elmer. Help the new operators to be GOOD operators. It is actually getting difficult to find some one who is willing to be an Elmer. When I say a good operator, I mean one with good operating practices. One who knows the regulations and follows them. One who is courteous. One who can recognize an equipment problem and fix it/get it fixed. One who can listen and learn from those with more experience. Does proficiency in CW make one a good operator as I described?
Until recently I was of the opinion that CW should continue to be required, but it is up to the FCC and not me. If you have (constructive) comments on the topic, Let’s discus the pros and cons of the requirement. Make your views known to the FCC to aid them in their rule making. Let’s stop with the bickering and name calling. We ALL got our licenses according to the rules and regulations set fourth by the FCC at the time we tested and all are equally valid in the privileges they grant.
Kelly
KD5ALU
Forgive me if I rambled but the were so many different posts that I wanted to comment on.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on September 5, 2003
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Hi Kelly. The problem is not that you got your extra at 5wpm and i got mine at 20. We're seeing tons of people that just cant or wont be elmered. They come off cb after being there for 15-25 years and wont change their ways. They wont listen to the old timers or the new folks that are good operators. Most of these cb types as we call them are rude arrogant folks. They talk on hamradio just like they did and still do on cb. I've even been told that they were going to change us. Or if i didnt like the way they talked to shut my radio off. This debate has really got out of hand...but honestly its not that because i passed 20 wmp that i think im any better than you or anyone else. Its just the type of people and attitudes they have that are coming into the hobby after the code was dropped to 5wpm. Now most of us after seeing and having first hand experiance with these idiots are just afraid of what we'll see next. Lots of us were vec's and after having these types of experiances have dropped our vec programs. Read this guys and gals...honestly its not that some old fart thinks he's better than you because he passed 20 wpm code and can do 40 wpm in his head and talk to you at the same time on the phone. Its the trash that most of us have had to deal with and its going to really get worse when the code is gone completely.
73
John WR8D:
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WR8D on September 5, 2003
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Hi Kelly. The problem is not that you got your extra at 5wpm and i got mine at 20. We're seeing tons of people that just cant or wont be elmered. They come off cb after being there for 15-25 years and wont change their ways. They wont listen to the old timers or the new folks that are good operators. Most of these cb types as we call them are rude arrogant folks. They talk on hamradio just like they did and still do on cb. I've even been told that they were going to change us. Or if i didnt like the way they talked to shut my radio off. This debate has really got out of hand...but honestly its not that because i passed 20 wpm that i think im any better than you or anyone else. Its just the type of people and attitudes they have that are coming into the hobby after the code was dropped to 5wpm. Now most of us after seeing and having first hand experiance with these idiots are just afraid of what we'll see next. Lots of us were vec's and after having these types of experiances have dropped our vec programs. Read this guys and gals...honestly its not that some old fart thinks he's better than you because he passed 20 wpm code and can do 40 wpm in his head and talk to you at the same time on the phone. Its the trash that most of us have had to deal with and its going to really get worse when the code is gone completely.
73
John WR8D:
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by WH0AMI on September 6, 2003
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It is a fact that many post without their callsigns, I did once and got flamed and "once burnt, twice shy", I think eham should require a call with valid email address.
What is with the "CBer" dislike? I guess I missed it, but only truckers use CBs, mainly because they are bored. Some become amateurs, and they seem pretty polite.
Why are we discussing this yet again. Do you care?
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by RADIO123US on September 6, 2003
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WR8D, you are 100 percent correct in your observations. We have several CBers on our local repeater who passed the simple no-code Tech exam. They use their "CB Voice" and the "CB Lingo" on the repeater daily. They have been approached privately (so not to embarrass them), and they told the elmers that they were not going to change and we had to "live with it" !!! Since the repeater belongs to the local radio club, and it is a reflection of the club's values, it's to the point where the repeater control ops are threatening to shut down the repeater when they are using it. This will only get worse if we allow this to move to the HF spectrum...what will hams in other countries think if they hear one of these CBers on 20 meters....??? At least on VHF/UHF repeaters, the control ops can shut them off....
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by KE4NYV on September 6, 2003
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Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one!
Jason KE4NYV
www.ke4nyv.com
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by WR8D on September 6, 2003
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Looks like you kind of "speak" with yours Jason.
John WR8D:
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by NN6EE on September 6, 2003
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Mr. N6AJR,
What I'd like to know is how ANYONE can forget the CODE in the first place???
Learning the CODE, if done properly, is like learning how to SWIM. or ride a BIKE, or making LOVE, once you learn it and DO IT how can you possibly forget it???
GAWD DAMN!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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After The Dust Settles What's Left?
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by KD7KCP on December 12, 2003
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My fellow Hams, now lets be honest about this whole "keep the code get rid of the code " thing. A lot has been written about the prose and cons of keeping the code some on both sides rather well written, and some not. I myself have been rather sharp tongued on the subject, and I have received a few interesting responses because of it. One ham KB9YVG in a obscene response writes "You think like an old timer.. I learned CW in a three hour seesion when I was around 12. I have no particular in interest in HF. You seem like on of those operators who like to have their daughter (obscene response) when they hit that key. I thought '73 met "please don't do my kid", whoops that must be CB talk." and another response by KG4YJR writes "What a moron". It is obvious to all that the defensive vitriolic responses of the "get rid of the code test "crowd is due to the fact that their argument ,no matter how will crafted, is intellectually dishonest. The truth is (and every one knows this ,both pro and con camps) that some are willing to earn their goal and others are not. You see some think that just because they want something they should get it even if it means cheating (changing the rules). Some of these lazy slothful types will argue in an intellectually dishonest manner that their concern is "saving Ham radio" when in fact they simply lack the desire to spend the energy to pass element one. To these lazy slothful types I ask: Why not be honest? And just say the truth ,come on and repeat after me: "I just don’t want to take the five words a minute CW test, so change the rules just for me!". Sincerely;
slow code general,
KD7KCP
73
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by WA8FYO on January 10, 2004
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You hit the nail on the head with W2OY. When I was in Jr. Hi, I used to get on the air before school. These was Mike with his "no lids, no kids, no space cadets". He also didn't like single sidebanders, of which I was one. I used to battle with him and as an SSBer, I usually won. It was childish, but then I was 13. There were a bunch of us younger ops who liked to ragchew qith friends in 75 and Mike and his fellow travellers made it plain that we "kids" weren't welcome. I got my General Class license at 11 years of age and by the time I was 13, we had an SSB rig with a 2000 PEP homebrew linear. I still have two Heath single-banders and a Heath linear stowed in my garage. I went on to operate from my ship in the Navy and ran phone patches for sailors to their families while we were crossing the Atlantic.
Making the new guys feel welcome, is the key.
I no longer own WA8FYO, but neither does anyone else. My Dad and brother were WA8FYM and WA8FYN respectively. My grandfather was 8BJ, making me a 3rd generation. Once you learn Morse, you never forget it. I qualified with the ARRL at 15 WPM. I still have my QSL cards from 59 countries.
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RE: After The Dust Settles What's Left? ... and wh
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by N6AJR on March 2, 2004
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nn6ee, jim,:::
It might be strange to you but I have had other things in my life besides CW.. and I do remember most of it, but not enough to use comfortabley on the air.. Maybe it had to do with the agent orange.. who knows..
I choose not to use it.. My choice , do you do satalites, SSB dx, UO 50, sstv, atv, AO-40, psk 31, rtty, contest..?? pick any one of those, now which one don't you do, and does this make you less of a ham ?? I think not.. CW is just another mode..
so I won't judge you and please take this oppourtunity to not judge me..
I don't appreciate it and I certainly don't need it.
73 to all
N6AJR, tom
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