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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
John Clifford (KD7KGX)
on
September 7, 2003
View comments about this article!
Can We Afford To Eliminate the Morse Requirement?
What many who call for the end of the Morse requirement for HF access, and who simultaneously want to grant HF privileges to current no-code VHF/UHF licensees fail to take in account is the impact of hundreds of thousands of new users to the HF bands. Can the bands take this influx of operators, and can we afford to eliminate the Morse requirement? I don't think so, and here's why.
Here in the US, 1/3 of the active ham population (200,000 out of 600,000 +/-) are no-code Technician-class licensees. Do we have enough HF spectrum to let every Technician on the air without interference? Let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations and see....
Let's assume that each SSB QSO will have 4 participants on average (higher than is the norm, BTW). Let's also assume that, for understandability, we must separate SSB QSOs by at least 2 KHz. That gives us the following room on the US General-band segments (based upon the US HF band plan as published by the ARRL):
160 meters - 200 KHz = 100 QSOs
75 meters - 150 KHz = 75 QSOs
60 meters - 5 channels = 5 QSOs
40 meters - 75 KHz = 37 QSOs
20 meters - 75 KHz = 37 QSOs
17 meters - 58 KHz = 29 QSOs
15 meters - 150 KHz = 75 QSOs
12 meters - 60 KHz = 30 QSOs
10 meters - 400 KHz = 200 QSOs
Total Possible QSOs = 488
We can have a total of 488 separate QSOs, or less than 2,000 HF operators talking at once without interference. This calculation eliminates any other modes that are legal in the phone sub-bands such as SSTV.
How Full Will the Bands Be?
IF every US Technician licensee is given General-class privileges, and just 1% of them get on the air at any given time the bands will be full. There will be no room for General-class or higher licensees in the phone sub-bands. Of course, we all know that hams aren't evenly distributed around the bands but instead concentrate on those bands with openings... higher up during the day and lower during the evenings. I cannot imagine the cacaphony that will ensue when 2,000 new hams get on 20 meters... or 500 get on 20 meters, 500 get on 40 meters, and 1,000 get on 75 meters.
There is already squabbling about frequency usage on 75 meters and 20 meters. When hams who are against the indiscriminate granting of HF privileges warn about the chaos that will ensue, the specter of THOUSANDS of hams elbowing for their 2 KHz share of the band is what they are concerned about. This is why many currently-licensed Generals and above are stating that they will retreat to the CW sub-bands... quite frankly there won't be any ROOM in the phone bands for them.
Two Types of Hams -- Two Types of Ham Radio
The vast majority of Techs who just want to talk to someone in a foreign country on their radio don't care whether they're using their 2m mobile or a new HF rig. These users, what I call 'utilitarians', are more interested in talking than the technology behind the talking. Utilitarians include truck drivers who buy 2m and HF rigs to facilitate communications without bothering to get a license. Utilitarians run CB with linears because they want to talk further than the legal maximum of 5 watts will allow. Utilitarians get Tech licenses and get into ham radio because they don't really care about electronics but want to be able to talk long distances without using a cell phone. While most of these Utilitarian licensees operate within the rules and regulations, they also are not willing to upgrade their licenses to gain additional privileges. In short, Utilitarian operators are not the future of ham radio, but instead will be the force that kills amateur radio, as we know it. What we need are more electronics enthusiasts, 'geeks' if you will, who are fascinated by radio, who want to learn more, who are willing to devote a modicum of time to study for and pass a test, and who have the curiosity that leads to experimentation and discovery of new technologies or new applications of existing technologies.
I worry about the future of ham radio populated with no-code HF licensees, many of whom will not know enough or care enough to operate without interfering with others. Sure, some Generals-and-above aren't good operators, but I think it's a valid assumption to conclude that more (not all, MORE) non-Morse-capable ops are less willing to learn proper operating etiquette or the necessary technological knowledge, as evidenced by their unwillingness to learn a rudimentary knowledge of Morse.
Solutions to the Coming HF Chaos
In short, the bands can't take an influx of hundreds of thousands of additional hams, many whom will not have either the knowledge or the temperament to operate without interfering with the current HF ham population. My solution: either keep things the way they are with a 5 wpm requirement for HF access, or give no-code Techs the same privileges as Techs with the code endorsement, namely CW access to the Tech HF sub-bands where they can learn proper HF operating etiquette and work DX without interfering with the present HF population.
I view IRLP and EchoLink as safety valves for the HF bands, since they allow for DX contacts to be made without using HF. Now, some hams decry these solutions as not being true ham radio (and they have a point), but they do allow no-coders to communicate with people in other regions and other countries. Frankly, these technologies have some advantages over traditional HF operation, including no expensive gear requirement, no big antennas, no in-depth knowledge of radio technology, and no possibility of interference to neighbors or other hams. Rather than ridicule those who use these technologies, we should strongly encourage their use so as to take demand off of the HF spectrum.
I know these solutions will not be popular with the no-coders out there, all whom believe (some correctly) they know enough to get onto HF without causing problems. My response: if you want to talk to DX ops without having to prove Morse knowledge, then get on your local IRLP or EchoLink node. If you want to fire up the HF rig, then spend a couple of weeks studying and pass the 5 wpm test... not because you absolutely need to know Morse but because having the discipline to pass the test is one way of demonstrating that you are willing to comply with the current rules and regulations and thus you are more likely to be a good operator.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K4IQT on September 7, 2003
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John, I agree wholeheartedly with you about the demonstration of some real committment if a ham or potential ham is willing to learn International Morse and be able to communicate at least slowly. However, IMHO your assumption of QSO's per unit bandwidth does not include some significant conditions.
First, at any location the strongest signal wins the battle for the most consistent contact rate - this is determined primarily by distance, propagation, and ERP. On any frequency you have multiple QSO's occurring simultaneously simply for that reason - for example, on 75 meters I can copy a ground-wave signal (say, 400 miles or less) easily and cannot even detect any signals from 7-land (where you are). This is true to varying degrees and for slightly differing reasons on all the HF bands - only those stations with grossly overwhelming ERP (perhaps via great antennas, perhaps via illegal power levels) become almost universal QRM.
Second, most of us are using transmitters with power levels under 200 watts PEP, and most of us have rather simple (cheap) antennas.
Third, we're not all on the air at the same time, due to geography and personal preferences. Sometimes it just seems like we are......especially when you're a QRP station.
Frankly, I think we have a better shot at beating BPL than we do with stopping the no-code movement. The FCC is going to listen to the mostest, loudest, and richest when they finally issue a ruling on this. IMHO all "real hams" should know and use CW at least occasionally, and be prepared to communicate under the worst transmission conditions - that means via CW from a simple battery-powered rig in a backpack. We're supposed to be more than ragchewers and DX chasers, and the no-code faction will eventually turn ham radio into an extension of CB, no matter how well-meaning they are.
But don't give up - we are not the mostest, the richest are the manufacturers who will all support no-code to sell more HF gear, but we who think CW has a place in ham radio can be loud and even obnoxious if we need to be. Perhaps the FCC will get the message......
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 7, 2003
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John, great article !! I do believe that your band occupation number are quite low though. Because of band conditions, several QSO's can take place at the same time on a frequency, due to the difference in propagation between various areas of the world. I too worry about what will happen if the floodgates are opened and we are forced to deal with thousands of newbie HF operators who want nothing more than to "shoot skip", and could care less about the technical requirements. We will see the newbies buying high power HF amplifiers to make their signal "louder", even though Part 97 wants us to use the lowest possible power to make the contact. Due to the band crowding, complaints of interference will rise, and because the newbies will have much less technical experience in HF operation, RFI complaints will rise too. It's not a pretty thing to think about...is it ??
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by B1GGJOE on September 7, 2003
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This article states the best reasoning that I've seen to eliminate the CW sub bands and open up for SSB Phone use. If CW is so spectrially efficient compared to SSB than why does it need 50% of our allocated bandwidth?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K4AXX on September 7, 2003
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You know John, you make an excellent point here. 20 years ago, when I believe that there were a heck of a lot more operators on the bands it was awful tough to find a spot even with a full gallon most of the times. Forget about 20! Better head on over to 15 where at least you stood a chance, or the wide open spaces of 10 (that is if they were wide open that particular day). When I got back into ham radio 2 years ago I was amazed how things had thinned out. The bands were in pretty fair shape and yet no one was hardly on 15. 10 had really become the wide open spaces (what a joy!)and you could hold a QSO on 20 with a ground mtd. vertical and a 100 watts without getting stepped on. Matter of fact, today I can actually hold a QSO on 20 with a 3' Maldol whip mounted on my FT-817 when conditions allow. There are really fewer hams on the HF bands then ever, and it just ain't conditions. We can use more hams on the bands, but it is a two edged sword. Eliminating the CW requirement will put more ops on the bands and create a lot of congestion. Not putting them on the bands might cause us to lose those bands as our numbers dwindle.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8UZE on September 7, 2003
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No it shows a need to keep the CW segment as is. Usage of the digital modes and CW modes will rise dramatically as ops capable in these modes will move down here to find an open spot to operate. These band segments will then get pretty congested too. I would even expect some of the new no-code ops to get disgusted with the congestion on voice and learn code to get away from it adding to the congestion on CW.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB3FGC on September 7, 2003
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if morse code is a good tool for discipline what happened to the operators on 80 meters?
must be the code
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by M0BCG on September 7, 2003
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we have to have MORE active , transmitting radio amateurs in the world .
only by having this will we be able to protect our bands from commercial interests or swamping of interference.
the more amateurs that there are operating and emitting RF, then the more need there will be for the likes of BPL companies to get theyre act together .
remember that we can also cause interference to operating systems , and by that emmision the authorities will have to do the necessary work in order to keep the spectrum in order for all users .
the only way amateur radio will have a say in what goes on in the radio spectrum is by having the backing behind us in order to do so .
that means we must do all that is possible to increase the amateur population as much as we can .
remember that we must think of the children in this world, who will be future radio amateurs, they must have the same enjoyment and qrm clean bands as we have now.
its no use being selfish and wanting it all for youreself , that is not the way to go on under the present radio climate .
being selfish will only bring the loss of amateur radio closer to being reality .
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 7, 2003
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KB3FGC, this is the argument that the no-coders ALWAYS make when presented with this issue. The answer is...yes, some LIDS get through the CW testing...do you want to LOWER the standards that much more to let MORE of them in ???
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8OB on September 7, 2003
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Come on give us a break. Every time this issue comes up the no-coders always say this. Fact is most of this has occured since the start of the dumming down of ham radio. Sure 30 years ago you had a small number of clowns on 75 meters but mostly tuning the band you heard lots of traffic nets and many well behaved round tables. Sure CW only keeps out most of the hardcore morons but giving the test answers out in advance lets the more educated of these people in. Keep in mind most of your anti-human types are actually very smart people.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K0BG on September 7, 2003
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Two kilohertz is rather narrow in view of the wide-spread use of compression and hot mics like the Heil series. Let's all hope the band width limitation PRM goes into effect before the no-coders hit the HF airways.
Alan, KØBG
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N1LLU on September 7, 2003
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I don't believe you will find everyone wants to get on just phone on HF. I for one with my disablities have been waiting for the time when morse code would not be required or hopes to see that..
I am looking at being able to do packet on HF and such, but no phone.. In Maine we have no packet network at all as it went away due to the fact that the Maine ham's says the internet is here..
So I hope on my behalf and others with disablities we get our chance to get on HF weather to play packet or those who want to make a contact with a distant friend or family member on phone..
But like to see the CW bands stay as they are for those who like CW or anyone that wishs to try CW...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K0CBA on September 7, 2003
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The formula is missing the "S" factor where S represents the extremely large number of possible HF'ers that that are "screwed" because of antenna restrictions. That could cut the number down to maybe 1 in 20.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KK7AC on September 7, 2003
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KB3FGC asked what about 80 meters...must have been the code? What the .025% of all hams are the rotten ones in the bunch? Those are the ones you are talking about. What about the 10% techs that talk like CB'ers and use 10 codes? You dont hear them because they are on band spectrum that does not atmosphere skip so not everyone hears them. Dont be so butthurt, upgrade and become a complete ham. A 10 year old girl can copy code and get her extra, so can you. (Is your subscription to No-code International almost up?)
KK7AC
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by CASPER669 on September 7, 2003
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KD7KGX:
It would appear to me that you've spent plenty of time researching this particular issue. Your hard work and ability to voice you're opinions clearly shows a dedication which should be commended.
With that said, please allow me to debate a specific point you've made.
There seems to be (in your article) a continued segregation between those who have passed the code (Genereal class licensees and higher) and those without the code (Technician class - and the likes). I find this to be a major problem (or flaw) in your logic. As I mentioned earlier, you've obviously spent a great deal of time researching and finalizing your points, theories and opinions. This forces me to ask a very simple question... When was the last time you spent as much time elmering someone without code? OK, I'll take the spotlight off you and make it a more general question because these problems definitely were not created by any one license holder... When was the last time any General class or higher licensee here in this forum took any time to help in elmering anyone with a Technician class license?
For myself, I speak to newly licensed operators at least once every couple of weeks. In my area, the numbers appear to be growing. I interest them in telling them about the rewards of upgrading, the satisfaction of working new modes and the desperate need ARES has for more volunteer work. I also attempt to discourage the continued misuse of CB type equipment, while at the same time, allowing for the proper use of the same equipment. There is nothing wrong with wanting to talk to someone without the use of a cell phone. There is a problem with the illegal purchase and/or use of amplifiers in this regard.
I've had people tell me that sometimes they explain these things to 'newbies', but they just don't seem to listen. Well, that will happen. Most of those who don't listen will wind up letting there licenses expire, because they can't sustain the enjoyment any longer. There problem is that they don't realize that half the enjoyment of a QSO is listening...
Do I believe that the code requirement should be dropped? Of course not. I think that it should be retained... If not for any other reason but to teach a 'new' method of communication to those willing to learn. I use the term 'new' loosely, as most people don't know the code. For them, it would be a new method of communications.
Your views were important enough to you to want to share with the rest of the Amateur Radio community. You felt it important to make us understand the math surrounding the entire code/no-code issues, and for that I thank you. But sometimes it takes less effort to cure the problem then to complain about it. Get on 2 meters... Get on 70 cm's... contact a local in your area and share some of your experiences with Amateur Radio, instead of opinions. This will do a great deal of good... Not just for you or the Tech licensee you may contact, but for Amateur Radio as a whole. If you're a member of RACES/ARES/MARS/SKYWARN or another group or club, show the Tech how satisfying this work is for you. Explain the necessity for your group. Point out all the good (and bad, in some cases) experiences you've had in that regard.
Remember... We all started somewhere. Many of us had an elmer, while many of us didn't. Those of us who didn't had to work twice as hard, yet we managed. I think if you follow my advice, you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how willing some of the Techs in your area are to learn something new. You should also know that this is still new to most Techs, and their desire and ability to learn is sometimes greater than we realize.
When all is said and done, you'll sit in front of your rig, hear the person you elmered on HF and think to yourself, "I created this operator... Listen to him/her go!". Now that's true satisfaction in the hobby - the ability to help someone else!
Thank you for taking the time to read my 2 cents. God bless and 73!
Chris KC2KFW
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB2JKM on September 7, 2003
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An interesting start on a topic, but woefully short of technical basis. Try adding the factors of propagation and even a very elementary understanding of arrival time theories (a.k.a. traffic engineering) to the picture and John's numbers suddenly will be off by many orders of magnitude.
Now, let's consider just making the contacts more efficient so that the holding time goes down. Maybe we should start using more of the "10 codes"? But, in order to save time and spectrum occupancy, we'll have to eliminate "good buddy" from the vocabulary.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8MW on September 7, 2003
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K4AXX wrote: 20 years ago, when I believe that there were a heck of a lot more operators on the bands it was awful tough to find a spot even with a full gallon most of the times.
That is exactly the way I remember it too. I have been been on HF since 1962. Thru the 60s, 70s and early 80's the bands were full of life. Regular daily activity took a major dive in the mid 80's and it never rebounded. I went from cussing the QRM to wondering what happened to all the hams.
The total number of amateurs was less, yet on air activity was higher. That suggests there is no direct relationship between number of calls in the FCC database and number of people actually using their HF privileges. IMHO, the reason fewer operators made more noise on the bands was because the average age was younger and enthusiasm was higher. I'm not sure we will ever see the average age as low as it once was. But it might be possible to stimulate more enthusiasm.
My guess: If the entire Technician population was granted General privileges, the HF bands would still not be as active as they once were. I for one would rather hear our bands full of signals instead of vast chunks of spectrum going unused.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2WEC on September 7, 2003
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KD7KGX - John Clifford,
Do you really believe all that you have written and proposed? The HF bands at least when I listen are for the most part VERY quiet except for contests.
Now let me tell you another thing; I am a no code technician class Amateur. I very much resent you ignorant comment in regard to this class of operator. We are NOT all truck drivers and poor operators using ten-codes and the like. I did not get into Amateur Radio to get something for nothing like eliminating my cell phone. I operate within the rules and have a good understanding of the theory of how my equipment works. I intend to upgrade when I have the time.....right after I finish my second college degree (and I am 47). I have never asked to be handed the HF bands. Fact is that there is more of a challange and technical knowledge required to work DX on the VHF/UHF bands. Do you care to debate that? Not every Technician wants the HF bands, they have found a challange right where they are. Some got the license for legal family communications and to do public service. It sounds like it is YOU with the problem. Your precious HF bands will never so so crowded that you cannot find a place to work the mode or band you choose at any one time.If I were you I would go back and rethink your comments and make a public apology to the no-code Technician class Amateurs you have offended. Your thinking on many if not most of them is way off base. I challange you to prove me wrong. Quite a few are doing what I am doing, VHF/UHF DX on 144 - 222 - 432 and 50 MHz. I also chase satellites. And yes I use my equipment to chat with my wife and friends on both the local repeaters and mostly on simplex. Amateur radio is different to all and that include those of who have yet to upgrade and those who choose not to. My comment to you is, research your material before you spout off. You have many, many errors in not only your figures but your thinking about people in this hobby. Please go back and correct your work and resubmit. I can be reached at N2WEC@arrl.net should you care to debate this.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 7, 2003
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You hit the nail on the head. I am for going back to the 13 wpm. We had no problems to learn the code 70 years ago. What is happening to this educated country of ours? Look back into the year of 1940 when the upper side of the cw band was given to the phone band as they needed more room. At that time we only had the amount of 50,000 hams, can you imagine the mess for the future?
Very good write up and a pleasure to read.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AC0X on September 7, 2003
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No, this article doesn't make any "good points". And, no, despite the subtitle, it does NOT show that there "just isn't enough spectrum" for everyone on HF. What it is is an example of is the most bizzare reasoning I've ever heard against elimination of the CW requirement. If the "CW as an op filter" argument doesn't work, if the "CW is a ham radio tradition" argument can't get you supporters, then do a little bizzaro-arithmetic to show how you can only ever have 500 HF hams in the whole world. I have a question to both the author and to everyone who posts that they agree with him, and that is "Are you serious?". The super-tough-at-the-FCC-office exams you all took couldn't have been that wonderful, they obviously didn't teach you about the basics of radio propagation.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8JJI on September 7, 2003
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Let's just dump the code requirement and stop worrying. The bottom is not going to fall out of ham radio.
They gave no coders vhf and uhf voice privilages back in the 90's and they thought that would be the end of all decent comms on those bands, well, those bands sound completely the same as they always have been for years and years.
Stop worrying ! Now go enjoy the hobby !
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8JI on September 7, 2003
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I think, if we pass no code, we are ALL heading for hell on HF. Passing no-code might turn out to be the best thing that happened for CW, becuase that is likely the only way we will be able to have interference-free QSO's!!!! We all better just draw back and think before we leap.
First, the hobby isn't dead or dying. It has more amateurs than it ever had...and frequencies have not expanded that increase to match.
Overall I'd bet the author isn't that far off. He has errors and omissions that underestimate crowding, as well as those overestimating impact.
First, he assigned 200kHz to 160. The bandplan is 40kHz for CW and digital, and 160kHz for SSB and wide modes. 160 is also somewhat shared with navigation. In all modes, CW and SSB, the band becomes totally packed in the winter both for phone and CW as it is!!! It is already absolutely full in peak periods. (Of course so are the other bands.)
Second he assumes the bands are all open and usable at any time, and of course they are not. Most people will be crowd onto 20 meters during daylight and 75 meters at night. This will be ESPECIALLY true as the sunspots lessen, and 15 meters and higher become virtually useless for anything but local groundwave over the next several years.
Most people simply can not operate 160 because of room for antennas.
Forget 40 also, because of QRM from foreign BC. This problem will also increase as sunspots drop.
These facts alone more than offset any small omissions or errors made by the author!!
Finally, I keep seeing the very lame argument that CW doesn't keep poor ops off 75 meters, to which we should consider:
1.) Even a very slow learner with very little effort can learn enough to pass WPM in what amounts to copying a few words out of a text, and not having to send. Not only was the old speed higher, the old requirement was to copy SOLID without any error one minute out of five minutes and to SEND the same (or whatever made the FCC examiner happy)!!! CW already isn't much of a test.
2.) People can easily get licenses WITHOUT a CW test, and I'd wager many more than we suspect do just that. Most of the license fraud has been with VE's who decided, like W5YI, CW isn't important.
3.) If you look at FCC actions, MOST of the violations requiring FCC intervention are with newer low or no-code operators who are using voice modes. This has historically been the pattern. Most of the jammers, cussers, and general LIDS are phone ops or ops who hate CW and everything else about life on this planet. They are mostly the "we want everything handed to us without work" crowd, just like crime everywhere is.
My observation is that 75 and 20 meters have gotten worse are requirements are been reduced. Whether that ties together with lessened technical requirements in fact or not, or if bad behavior is a social change over the years, no one would know. But it certainly gets worse as the CB mentality and overcrowding mix.
Myself, I don't want to experiment for this simple reason. CB is an unlicensed service, and by far it is filled mostly with people who have no regard for any rules, including what frequency to operate on or how to operate a radio or amplifer without splatter.
Recently I was told on 40 meters, by an Extra class who was using channel Six CB-lingo when talking, that his 15kHz wide S9+10dB (not real strong)SSB signal was due to my "poor antenna Q", and the fact that I was probaly "using an antenna tuner rather than a selective Hi-Q antenna", and not how he was running his system. These are the types of technical morons that are now extra class, which is supposed to represent the most skilled we have to offer!
The question is, do we want more?
As for the HF bands, they already full up as it is. The last thing we need is a sudden flood of radio-clueless people populating the already crowded bands.
Let's all work to be cautious!!!!!! Once we undo something and open the floodgates, it will be impossible to change it back! I have no problem dropping CW totally for the phone bands, but the technical test MUST be strengthed to a REAL test of actual understanding of how the little box on the desk works, and HOW to comply with rules about bandwidth.
Without that, this is justa big step towards CB.
73 Tom
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KA4KOE on September 7, 2003
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No we can't. Time to get those trains running to get the "old and infirm" off the bands to make room for the young.
'Bout time for a good ole fashioned pogrom!
Lighten up before you flame me.
P
KA4KOE
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC8MEW on September 7, 2003
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Just my opinion. Why does everything come down to code or no-code? I have been a ham since 1977. I hold a general class ticket. If this topic is such a big deal I believe we should begin a very serious look at gaining more band space. As more of the commerical industry going to satellite communication that leaves alot of room in the spectrum unused. Tune around in theses bands, for the most part they are as quite as a mouse. Look at 60 meters, why stop there!!!
Another point I would like to make is 40 & 80 meters. I know I am going to ruffle alot of feathers but you can not swing a cat and not hit a net. They seem to go on 24/7. Just listen to the rude comments made by the hams who live on these bands during a contest weekend. By the way, I don't do contest. I find them a way to make contacts. A shame, using a contest just to meet other hams. Just try to call cq in the general portion of the 40 & 75/80. I understand they are of some value but do we need hundreds of them.
Lets look at the vhf/uhf bands. If it wasn't for repeaters they would be dead. I believe we should look at using all the modes here, ssb,digital. Make them as popular as we see on hf bands. Satellite communications is alot of fun but only lasts about 15 minutes a couple times a day. We need more birds!!!
Remember, What is going to happen to our hobby if ths broadband things ever happens??????????????????
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K4FAU on September 7, 2003
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John.
You are 10000% right. But why stop there. I think that you should require one to also have a PhD in Electronics, able to send and receive code at 40 wpm, and deisgn satellite packet circuitry also !!.
And why not -- if being able to recieve code at 5 wpm is the separation of great operators from us 2m truck driving idiots, then hell, 30 and 40 wpm would allow the band to be used by only you and the "father son, and holy ghost"...
I hope that one of these no code guys finally get their ticket and live right next to you and able to put out twice as much as you do and knock old timers such as you off the air --
I mean it was bad enough when the argument was that code was an important mode -- now you are saying that there is not enough room for all of us and that you are more important --
what an egotistical selfish butthhead!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5HIY on September 7, 2003
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Round and Around we go will it ever stop nobody knows.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 7, 2003
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Some pretty nasty ham operators we have here today and as you read, you will find more.
The idea of Amateur Radio is to communicate with one another and have respect for one another. That I do not see it here today.
Check back to the year from 1915 to the year of 1946 and you will find there was none of this gossip and filth with language as we have today.
Can we afford everyone on hf? I say no. Raise the cw test back to 13 wpm and enough technical theory to help and not to destroy.
FOR ALL WHO FOUGHT FOR IT. FREEDOM HAS A TASTE AND A MEANING. THOSE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW.
-------------------
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5VHF on September 7, 2003
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I get the impression what you are really trying to say is there should be no more license issued (code or no code) so you can have "space" for your contesting. Quote from your biography on QRZ "I'm hoping to earn the CQ DX Millenium award for working 100 countries in 2001 (didn't have the gear to get the ARRL's award for 2000... drat!) as well as earn WAS. I can see how paperchasing is very addictive!" Hmmm, Seems more operators would give you more "paper". So tell us, Will you now not count any contacts or accept QSL's from countries that have dropped the code requirement?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB2TQC on September 7, 2003
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John,
I agree with what you are saying. I'm fairly sure, as has been already stated, that your numbers are probably low. I'm trying to make the same arguement on the QRZ site using 40 as an example. Good Luck and 73,
John WB2TQC FISTS #8690
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K4FAU on September 7, 2003
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We apologize that a few more folks on the HF waves is going to prevent you from obtaining your goal of being the DX'r of the year.
But really --who is dummying down what?
So congratulations – you passed a Morse code test that your great grandfather would be proud of you for – but lets face it – its only a mode -- so you can send 5 wpm to a ham across the continent when in fact, the technology now allows you to send the entire Webster’s Dictionary in 2 minutes via gigahertz technology – so instead of looking forward – we are clutching something from the past to validate our existence. You remind me of the story I saw on the History Channel about how upset the US Army Horse soldiers were when the mechanized vehicles came on board and stated that this was the end of the US Army and that motorized vehicles would never succeed…I hope ten years from now my kids look back and laugh how we as a group based our technical proficiency on how well we rode the Morse Code horse and not drive the higher technology vehicles!
and the bottom line is that your figures are completely in error -- if you are using your elementary theory that every ham is going to go out and buy equipment just to take you off the air -- then there should be as we speak 250,000 no code people on the air right now on 2m/70 .... and thats crazy... most of these band are silent accept for the repeater contacts -- oh wait thats right -- its a giant conspiracy that they are all waiting to get their HF no code license just to interfere with you ...
Not every ham is going to go and get new equipment -- and these guys are as much hams as you are -- and their numbers are growing each day as our numbers (the CW guys) are shrinking --
but not every new no code HF guy is going to stay on the air 24/7 just to take up your valuable airwaves -- its only hobby for most of us with real lives ...
you want to do something constructive -- get the CW bandwidth reduced to open up more phone bandwidth in the alloted spectrum for us that do not want to us CW but enjoy voice...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W7COM on September 7, 2003
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"I worry about the future of ham radio populated with no-code HF licensees, many of whom will not know enough or care enough to operate without interfering with others. Sure, some Generals-and-above aren't good operators, but I think it's a valid assumption to conclude that more (not all, MORE) non-Morse-capable ops are less willing to learn proper operating etiquette or the necessary technological knowledge, as evidenced by their unwillingness to learn a rudimentary knowledge of Morse."
Where do you find any basis to say this? I don't hear any of this happening on the repeaters or simplex in our (Puget Sound) area. Your "valid assumptions" lack any valid logic that I can fathom. What exactly does being "Morse-capable" have to do with a willingness to learn proper operating procedures, or technical proficency? As far as I'm aware, I use proper procedures on V/UHF, if not, please let me know, and I help maintain (i.e.; solder on) one of your local repeaters. I've also been a cheif engineer at a number of broadcast stations, where lack of proper procedure results in much more than a card from an OO.
You slam at "non-Morse-capable" fellow hams leaves me astounded at your complete disregard of the skill level of the average no-code ham. To lump us in with freebanders, just becasue we don't see a need to transmint on HF, shows just how narrow your thinking is. What lead you to feel this way? What is your real fear?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 7, 2003
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W8JJI said "They gave no coders vhf and uhf voice privilages back in the 90's and they thought that would be the end of all decent comms on those bands, well, those bands sound completely the same as they always have been for years and years."
I've been licensed for more than 20 years...after the 1991 introduction of no-code, the 2 meter band HAS gotten MUCH worse...we now have "hams" on our local repeater using 10 codes !!! ...just wait until they get on HF...I wonder what the DX stations will think of them using 10 codes ???
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 7, 2003
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W7COM....the answer here is ATTITUDE....you CAN pass the code test....your unwillingness to do so is the only thing standing in your way....
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 7, 2003
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More elitist drivel and failed logic. You are assuming that ALL operators will be on the air simultaneously, and that ALL frequencies will be open to ALL areas simultaneously. Furthermore, your labeling of techs as "utilitarians" is probably one of the most pretentious comments I've seen here. How many of your own rigs have you designed and built from scratch? Have you invented some sort of breakthrough in HF technology lately? Building a K1 or 2 from a kit or stringing up a wire doesn't make anyone a contributor to the art of radio, nor does learning CW. Just because you can make a peanut butter sandwich doesn't make you a chef.
I design and build commercial radio stations and studios, digital automation systems and wireless digital networks. Does that make me a "utilitarian" radio operator? You bet.
NewsFlash, oh Prince Of Radio, we are almost ALL, by virtue of this being a hobby, "utilitarians".
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 7, 2003
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And BTW, and I know this will be an insult to some, but in my opinion, contesting is the lowest form of ham radio. Nothing irks me more than hearing some automated spiel over and over. That's just my opinion, and it's not meant to be a personal attack, but more along the lines of preferences. Contesting adds little "the art of radio" and serves little more than to clutter up the already presumably "full" spectrum.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by DOODAH on September 7, 2003
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John, you're worrying over nothing. Here in Europe where the 'lower classes' have been 'let loose' on HF, it really isn't that bad. I've yet to hear a problem.
Let's face it, if all these fine folk had REALLY badly wanted HF, they'd have buckled down and worked their way up to the heady heights of 5wpm by now.
These types will also _have) to BUY a 'rig', etc., and even the budget models are not cheap.
The sky is NOT falling. Trust me, I'm anonymous ;o)
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB2TQC on September 7, 2003
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K4FAU,
Hi. As I posted earler reducing the CW spectrum is just what I'm posting to prevent. Yes I think the hobby will become even more degraded. YES I think it will be a mistake to drop the code requirement and YES I support KNOW-CODE. But my main concern is giving up CW spectrum space for those of us who still enjoy using this mode. I am a small time user logging only 1190 Q's since 6/2K but 1124 of them were CW. I'm not looking for DX'er of the year. I have 52 countries confirmed. On the QRZ site I proposed that If they did remove the CW requirement and found they needed more space then they might propose taking over some of the Novice portions. Not too many hams transmit there anymore. Without the Novice portion of 40m I, as a Advanced Class op. am relegated to between 35 and 40 Khz of spectrum space. As an extra I get a whole 25 khz more. Phone is authorized in 150 khz of space. With the Novice portion thrown in it would be 200 Khz Isn't that enough or do I have to give up my right to operate totally?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W7COM on September 7, 2003
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RADIO123US:
"W7COM....the answer here is ATTITUDE....you CAN pass the code test....your unwillingness to do so is the only thing standing in your way...."
Yes, I can pass the Element 1. I just don't have a need for HF, except maybe 10m FM. I could pass the General today, if I desired. I could make a good try at Extra, and pass it if I read the book to get the ham specific information out of it.
But today I'm hacking the code-plug on a SyntorX low band rig, burning an EPROM for it and installing it in my truck so I can have some fun on 6m FM. My inovation today will be to figure how to fit two RF decks in a short-cab Ranger :)
Ted, KC5NYJ: You sound like my type of ham!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC0PTO on September 7, 2003
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There are many other replys to this original post that say it better than I can, but your premise is very flawed. If you take your premise to its conclusion, then I guess no more new licenses had better be issued, as you claim the bands are already overcrowded, which they are not. As to the "utilitarian" class of ham, I guess I fall somewhere in between, as I use both purchased commercial gear and homebrew gear. I used to make my living as an Electronic Engineer and technician, but now choose to use professional quality purchased transceivers for the most part, as I can no longer either afford to scratch build anything that would compare to the available commercial gear, and no longer have access to the equipment I had at my disposal when I was working in the field. Does that make me a "utilitarian"? If you say so. What's wrong with that? Ham Radio has many avenues that a person can follow depending on his or her tastes. Scratchbuilding and/or designing your own equipment is but one of many. The code - no code thing is getting pretty well trashed over ad nausium, so maybe we should all start thinking and putting our efforts toward the real threat to our hobby, BPL.
Just my humble opinion 73 de KCØPTO
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by MUNGO on September 7, 2003
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Everybody is so worried over nothing. It is time to get rid of the code requirement.
The cw requirement is the worst thing for ham radio.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5JIO on September 7, 2003
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I have been a "no-coder" since 2000 and since passing the test, I have met a number of great people willing to help in any way possible. To me, this is what ham radio is all about--HELPING--not hurting. On the same hand, I have never seen so many egotistical, snobbish, political jerks than in this hobby. You guys make me sick, why would I want to get on hf & "enjoy" a QSO with people like you?? I say they can keep the code requirement as I have no interest in joining with yourselves.Let the flames begin.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB2TQC on September 7, 2003
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KD5JIO,
No Flames here OM. Your opinion is your opinion. Your loss as far as I can see because you're gonna miss out on talking to alot of people who are really nice, friendly, and considerate folk. People who only want what they believe is fair. You believe No-Code is the way to go. I don't. Doesn't make you a bad person nor does it make me a bad person. We just want different things. I just want to keep operating CW. And I'd like to continue doing it in the same band space that I am using today. As I've said on the QRZ site, If there has to be no-code HF'ers let them fill the SSB sub-bands. Unless of course they want to learn or practice CW. Then I would try to do my best to help. Just leave the sub-bands alone. That way if no-code IS a mistake I won't have to live with it. 73
John WB2TQC
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K3UD on September 7, 2003
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I don't believe that it will be as bad as suggested. As mentioned, for a growing number of hams, it is getting tough to use HF because of CC&Rs, other antenna restrictions, TVI, RFI and all the other FIs.
There is something else going on I did not find in the thread. It seems that almost 98% of the the no code Tech licensees are not renewing their licenses. Research has been done in the FCC database which include Tech licensees from the inception of the licence class to the end of the grace period. This alone could be the internal regulator. ( this statistic has been cited in recent petition to the FCC)
Like many others who posted, I think that the HF bands could use some more population. One thing that may happen is the gradual expansion of the phone bands. While I would support the notion of keeping a code requirement for at least the Extra Class, I think this is a dead issue and not worth any more agony.
73
George
K3UD
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K0OOK on September 7, 2003
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So, following your logic, the 400,000 HAMs that already have HF priveleges should have already filled up the bands. If, as you say just 1% of the Technicians got on HF at one time all of the bands would be full, then since the bands are relatively empty, that means that less than 1/2 of 1% of the HF able HAMS are on the bands now.
The numbers just don't add up.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4CVL on September 7, 2003
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Can we afford to NOT have everyone on HF? With all of the bitching and moaning I hear about "use it or lose it", I don't see how having the HF ham bands full of hams is a bad thing.
In fact, with the BPL initiative, having MORE hams on HF to create "unintentional interference" to the UNLICENSED BPL devices makes absolute sense in "winning the war" and ultimately preserving the HF spectrum (for HAM radio use).
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 7, 2003
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JOHN, Your ''RIGHT ON THE MONEY". Not enough HF spectrum. No if's ands, or but's.
You are also making an assumption that everybody will not use too much mic gain, or punch up the speech processor. Every hams rig will be in perfect alignment,
an ice cubes chance in a volcano.
One idea I had was to give HF Voice to TECH'S on 10M
only. Almost 2MHZ of space for cw, ssb, and digital.
In my neck of the woods on 10M all I hear are freebanders.
73 MIKE
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KF4MKJ on September 7, 2003
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Okay the FCC drops the code requirement. We get a few more operators on HF. I waited untill it dropped to 5 WPM. There was never anything wrong with my abilities as a operator. I just couldn't get the speed up. Before the speed was dropped I had decided to just be a good operator on 50 MHZ and up. Guess what? I still enjoy 50 MHZ and up but I get on HF for an occasional QSO, or to work a little DX or maybe putter around in a contest a little while. The hobby is what you want to get out of it. Oh yeah. The tests were no problem. I had allready learned most of it along the way. From reading magazines, books, listening to the old timers that are still around, and the occasional person that has something intelligent to say on the internet beside the endless code/ no code debate. All that is left for me to say about it is enjoy the hobby and forget being bitter because someone may have it a little easier than you did.
73 KF4MKJ
73 KF4MKJ
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 7, 2003
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P.S. If one would like to DX 24/7 TRY THIS.
WWW.IVISIT.com. An O.M. on 440 told me about this one.
Download the software. Select special interest ham radio.
Plug any microphone in your P.C. Add a cheap webcam.
A simulated rig pops up on the computer screen.
There is a whole list of callsigns of who is on.
A lot of DX stations you could never work on 20M will be 59 of course. I tried it. It is nifty.
It works OK on A standard 56K DIAL UP. The audio has a few artifacts. The video will be about 3-5 fps.
You will see the O.M.'S shack.
A few O.M.'S I know use this similtaneously with HF.
This dual approach is good for QSB,QRM, and QRN.
I liked it, but then again I like 2 day old sun rippend suishi! (HI-HI).
73 DE MIKE
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC9AWS on September 7, 2003
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This article is just another rationalization for trying to keep other people off the HF Bands. Same mentality, different rationalization.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC8MEW on September 7, 2003
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This is my secound reply. I would never want to offend anyone. This is a hobby. And for each of us it has a special meaning. I have read the code/no code debate.I had to pass the code requirement when I recieved my first licence. I still do a little cw. On a very good day I might be able to do 10 to 13 wpm. I run a qrp station only, 2 watts max. I believe, cw, psk31, rtty or any of the modes should be a personal choice. I also have read comments to the effect that the code would keep some less educated people off these frequencies. The reality is, we are not all electrical engineers. I work in a nursing home assisting the elderly with their daily living. So by "their" standards I should not have a licence. I wonder how many hams out there work in the electronic's field? If that would have been a requirement, ham radio would have fallen by the roadside many many years ago. I do a little homebrewing. Not because I beleive that is what a real ham does. I do it because I enjoy it. I have also read comments about hams acting like cber's and truck drivers. We don't live in a perfect world. There will always be a bad apple in the bunch. So why does the truck driving industry have to be the bad apple. Just a thought. Maybe we should replace the code with radio ethics. So back to the main question, can we afford everyone on hf? Not everyone who holds a general class and better is on hf. Vhf and uhf can and are very interesting frequencies (satellites, eme, moonbouncing, ssb and so on). I also believe some of the no code techs would not operate on hf even if they had the oppertunity. At this point in time I don't think we can afford to keep any hams off these bands. With that broadband thing becoming a issue. If we don't use these frequencies we will lose. The more hams on hf the greater voice we will have.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4EWJ on September 7, 2003
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that right ... it gonna take a fight to keep the
aholes off hf and on 11 mtrs where they belong.
most of you code bashing cretins dont have the slightest idea of history or the cw art...theres
was an old saying "any dumb sob can talk in a mic"
it was true then...its true now.
BTW...I dont give a damn if you like it or not.
E
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by TOASTY on September 7, 2003
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Maybe it will be better to keep us tech's off HF. Hell, we can follow your advice and use IRLP and ECHOLINK over our BPL, we will still be causing interference to your precious HF frequencies. Either way, it looks like you grumpy old men will lose, but hey, at least it gives you something to bitch about, right?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8JI on September 7, 2003
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I suppose a technical test or CW test could be viewed as a conspiracy to keep people off the air, if the person wanted to operate and didn't really want to study.
I can't argue with that.
There already are bands available for people who dislike or don't care for CW, and I certainly have no objection to allowing no-coders on restricted voice segments on HF.
My point is this. We should at least make the technical test a reasonable test of ACTUAL knowledge or skill. People who operate HF radios that can cause problems world-wide really should have a good idea how to use the radio.
They don't have to be experts, just understand some basics and take a meaningful test to show that they do.
Just turning it all loose without any type of meaningful exam would certainly seriously impact already overcrowded phone bands, and we would NEVER be able to undo the harm. Amateur radio would simply merge with CB radio, as the "old farts" all left.
73 Tom
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 7, 2003
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KC9AWS said "This article is just another rationalization for trying to keep other people off the HF Bands. Same mentality, different rationalization. "
The only one keeping YOU off of the HF bands is YOURSELF...unless you believe it's a BIG conspiracy :)
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KG4MCC on September 7, 2003
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I am a no-code tech, but I do not want HF priveleges with my present license.
However, I would expect General Class HF privleges if I passed the General written exam (assuming that the code requirement for U.S. citizens is abolished).
I also think that the code requirement for Extra Class should be retained.
The author forgot an important fact. Many of the present HF operators (especially on 75/80 meters) use high power amplifiers every time they operate. I have heard many of them turn off their amp, still maintaining readable communications with each other, but turning the amps back on because "it sounds better".
Technology will help with readability issues. If those presently using amps to "sound better" used a good DSP on receive instead of more power, I bet that many of them would have improved receive audio without the extra transmit power.
Maybe we should also have "transmit emission controls" on all new amateur radio equipment (DSP TX audio processing) too. There will always be those who "break the rules", but if the equipment had a transmit bandwidth processor that was difficult to defeat, then a lot of operators would use this equipment unmodified (just like the emissions controls on automobiles).
If the present amateur radio rules are just enforced, then there will be very few problems with "no-code operators".
Let us all fight against BPL, demand stricter adherence to the rules, and put the petty bickering to rest.
Dave - KG4MCC
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by LNXAUTHOR on September 7, 2003
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quote: "...why would I want to get on hf & "enjoy" a QSO with people like you?"
- the fact is, you won't ... all contesters want during a contest is a 10-second exchange of call sign and RST...
- perhaps the only thing i'd dread with a massive influx/growth of operators on hf would be all the contesters, all the time, with no open frequencies on the weekends...
- pls don't misunderstand - i don't have anything wrong with contesting or contesters - who use SSB and CW, btw... that aspect of ham radio doesn't really appeal to me... personally, i prefer nets and rag-chewing... but that's ham radio, isn't it? a mode, use, and enjoyment of many different aspects for all?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB4QNG on September 7, 2003
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I agree this a good reason to open up a lot of the cw band space to phone. I think this is long over due. Don't want to eliminate it but 1/2 of it could be changed tomorrow. The novice portion should be eliminated right away. There is one thing that wasn't taken in to consideration how many hams die every day.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AETHERBURNER on September 7, 2003
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The points made in here are well taken. Because of cellular reuse because of skip zones and the like, the numbers relating to the amount of conversations are probably quite low. If this was a flat playing field where regardless of location a person would hear all other conversations, then this could possibly be quite true.
Then of course Part 97 says that we should not deliberately interfere with an ongoing QSO and if it was a flat playing field, then there would be no way of having two distinct QSO's going on unless you are used to HF and picking out the voice that you are speaking to.
Enough of this so it is time to put it aside. There is not enough room for all to be on at the same time - not possible. What will probably happen is that the bands will decongest themselves eventually as ops just give up and leave the hobby because they can't get in and have a peaceful Q because of QRM. These ops will probably just not renew...dwindling licencee count...FCC says since counts are dropping that the Amateur Service is not necessary anymore. Ether they totally deregulate it or kill it off. Me, I will just get a real tight filter, put up with the ringing in the ears and find a usable CW pitch that is comfortable and have a mellow conversation just hearing the person or people in my roundtable. Now to price out a 250 Hz filter and clean the contacts on my paddles. I won't give up the use of the bands, just change how I operate.
---.. ...-- . ... -... . ... - -.. -..-
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD7UKT on September 7, 2003
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Four words can summarize this whole thread:
High noise, low signal.
--David, KD7UKT, who has already passed his 5WPM for General class, so don't call me a no-code!
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KA6VNU on September 7, 2003
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The sky is falling!!!!!
What a crock!
Walt KA6VNU (low code)
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by HAMFAN on September 7, 2003
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BBwwwaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Article poster, gee you're funny mister. I've been truly entertained, [would've been better if you could have impressed anyone], but entertained nonetheless at all these amusing and sometimes clever arguments you pro-codites are struggling to come up with at the last minute. Why do you old gin and tonics even keep trying? And so late!!! It's over. This is a done deal. Accept your defeat gracefully and go on with life...or get out and make room for the next generation.
What an obtuse notion. The bands are going to be crammed to overflowing all the time/everywhere. Did you take your Geritol today? Are we supposed to be taking you seriously or are you just yanking our mic cords? When was the last time YOU operated on 15, 12 or 10? Even when good propogation is present these bands are mostly empty and need alot of new operators to use them.
Your idiotic insinuation that all not-interested-in-code operators have no technical expertise, ability or inclination only goes to prove that you are the state's leading arsehole (credit to Mel Brooks).
Attitudes like yours and those of ALL of you outreageously bigoted haters of fellow hams just make me want to go around at the next hamfest and brain every doofus I see wearing a stupid pro-cw bumper sticker accross their butts with a baseball bat. All you asinine moronitrons are a huge embarrassment to the greater ham community. Even now somebody is going around collecting all of these stoopid cw vs. common sense posts from here and qrz and compiling them into a big book of laughter and shame which they will be showing their friends at parties 10 years from now and then using to teach their future hammy grandchildren 20 years from now as how not to be an intolerant ignoramous type person.
Ya'll are soooooooo pitiable.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE4MOB on September 7, 2003
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Hate to throw a monkey wrench into things, but there is no way all 200,000 Techs are active. If they are, then there's an awful lot of dead air out there on VHF and UHF for no apparent reason.
The number of inactives are mind-boggling. Take a look at the list of license expirations and you'll see what I mean.
Steve, KE4MOB
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6EZ on September 8, 2003
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I have heard this very same argument before.
Maybe the FCC will have to limit all transmissions below 30 mHz to CW so each qso will use less bandwidth, thereby easing the crowded conditions.
True, there may be no requirement for CW to get on the band, but if CW is the only allowed mode.... well, you get the idea.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W5HTW on September 8, 2003
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<<KC5NYJ on September 7, 2003 Mail this to a friend! More elitist drivel and failed logic. You are assuming that ALL operators will be on the air simultaneously, and that ALL frequencies will be open to ALL areas simultaneously. Furthermore, your labeling of techs as "utilitarians" is probably one of the most pretentious comments I've seen here. How many of your own rigs have you designed and built from scratch? >>.
My own definition of the "utilitarians" is those who use ham radio to accomplish something unrelated to ham radio. The first thought coming to mind is the hubby-wife cell phone gang. For the majority of them, they have no interest in ham radio as an ends, just as a means to communicate "honey bring up a loaf of bread." That is neither illegal nor unethical, but it contributes nothing at all to the hobby of ham radio. Others using it to order a pizza, or in lieu of aviation radio when going hot air ballooning, also come to mind. For them, the interest is in an activity that is not ham radio, but they use it as a utility to further that interest. We are also seeing quite a bit of this in those whose hobby is actually computers, but they use the ham radio as the 'utility' by which the computers communicate. To me, one of the prerequisites of being a ham is to be interested in the hobby, not simply to use it in place of CB, cell phone, FRS, etc. Many of those wives won't talk to anyone but the husband anyway. They are not "hams" in spirit, only by necessity because hubby said "See, honey? You can keep in touch with me on my way home from work."
Yes, I think a lot of Technicians did let their licenses drop after the ten years, or are doing so now. And many of them quit the hobby long before the license expired. They had been wanting to get into ham radio. They saw the images of hams at their big stations with their big beams, handling traffic in the Carribean, or chasing DX in Latvia, and they wanted to play that game. They visited some ham with a tower and beam and they sat in his ham shack as he talked on the S-Line or Heath or Drake line, and talked around the world. "I wanna do that!" they said. With a poor understanding of the licensing, they leaped at the new code free ticket in the early nineties, anxious to be a part of this world-wide hobby. And then they found they were still on CB, just VHF CB. It was just like where they came from, except with shorter distance, a license, more rules, and more old timers griping about it. They still had that "insurmountable" barrier of the code to join the "real" ham radio, and they dropped out. They stuck with it before cell phones became available to everyone, but once the cellular companies made those phones attractive on the family plan, these Technicians found no fun in the hobby, and no use for it. They had, in fact, been misled into thinking they were getting the golden goose, when they got a dead chicken. They were still on CB, and that big DX station was just as far out of reach as it had been when they were on Channel 19, working truckers.
So I doubt a good many of them would leap onto HF. They have moved on, no longer care about ham radio. If by some chance they hear there is a new ham radio with no code at all, they may take a look. Then again, they may not.
Some will, though. I have heard enough guys on repeaters saying "I wish I could get down there on 20 meters." Well, they will. Unfortunately their 'training ground' has been, Step 1, CB, and Step 2, VHF CB. They have no idea what HF is (was) supposed to sound like. Back when we had the Novice ticket a new ham learned by doing. But with the Tech code free as the entry level ticket, nothing is learned. There is no Elmering. Just pick up the mic and do your own thing. It would be very hard for those types of hams NOT to bring their 'operating procedures' to HF; it's all they know.
But will that be the downfall of ham radio? No. In fact, I think the downfall has already occurred, and not just recently. It came about in the late 80s, and that is why we hear so many Generals and Extras carrying on the CB tradition. It was made easier, and there was no longer a time-in-grade requirement for the Extra, a proving ground. The VE program, anyone can tell you, offered amazing chances for those wishing to become HF hams to pay for the exam and the passing of it. Though in the last few years the VE program has tightened, due to FCC monitoring, in its early days, anyone with $150 bucks or more in his pocket could become an Extra Class ham. I know of some of those who actually bragged about how much they paid for their licenses, on the air! No fear, no shame. Although one guy did say he paid $1200 for an Extra ticket! I think he got screwed, as many got them for $200. And, yes, I know personally a couple. But it's milk under the bridge, and I no longer care.
Maybe that's when ham radio started its downhill slide, as testing became a joke when the FCC handed it over to the peers. That has, fortunately, changed quite a bit, but not entirely, as anyone who reads the FCC notices of violations is well aware - the VE groups still get lots of troubles, and lots of tickets issued get pulled due to irregularities. But it brought us a lot of Generals and Extras who knew nothing about radio and less about code. Now they are the "old timers" on the air! And they are setting the example for the new kids on the block. They can't even teach the new kid how to read an ohmmeter.
Will this elimination of Morse testing kill ham radio? Well, what is left of it will remain, but the changes may be far more dramatic than even today's newbies imagine. Still, it will be ham radio, or at least the only "ham radio" we have. So, no, it won't be dead. It may be unrecognizable, but that depends, I guess, upon who is doing the looking.
ed
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2NZJ on September 8, 2003
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HERE WE GO AGAIN GUYS. THIS ARTICLE IS GOOD FOR JUST THAT 488 COMMENTS of FLAMES,BASHING,CRASHING AND ETC.its a real shame to read aprox over 1000 threads of these bashing inflamatory comments made at each other directed with anger and resentment and other remarks about the no-code vs pro-code debate. AFTER ELEMENT ONE IS REMOVED THINGS WILL RETURN TO NORMAL AND IN DUE TIME ALL THIS WILL MOST LIKELY BE LOST IN THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. ( i hope ) let it go Joe. 73 to all N2NZJ TOM
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5YDY on September 8, 2003
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You make an awful lot of erroneous assumptions. First, nocode Techs can't just get on HF the day the "bell tolls for CW". They have to buy HF gear. How many nocoders do you know have HF gear just sitting ready for that day? Next, how many will live where they can actually put up a humble antenna outdoors? If they are young generation buying into subdivisions, they'll be rudely rebuffed by CC&Rs. A mobile VHF/UHF or VHF/UHF HT is a lot cheaper than an HF rig. How many do you think can even afford to buy a new HF rig if they wanted to? How many wives will see the hobby very differently when it means "ugly" antennas at home, big antennas on the family car instead of an HT in the hand and a small mobile in the car?
Get real. I suspect the number of nocoders that will actually go HF the day they can will be small. And it is my hope that you rude, ugly hams that detest anyone that doesn't know code stay off the air the first week go our first QSOs can at least be fun.
KD5YDY
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD6TQE on September 8, 2003
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Lets see,the cw requirement is akin to going to the DMV and demonstrating how to saddle a horse before getting a license to drive on the freeway! You can stay on the surface streets only. You are not a Real driver unless you upgrade to saddle installation! At least the freeways wont be as crowded.
See how stupid this sounds.The "walked 5 miles in the snow to school" crowd will reach room temp soon and the controvesy will die with them.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2YZS on September 8, 2003
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Ya just won't let it die, will ya? You are damned and determined that everyone else will learn Morse because you did. Anybody who takes the time to learn the theory involved, buy the study materials, take the time to read and understand the study material, search out an examination date and site, wants to be a Ham, and know that there will be more to learn as he goes on, but this means nothing to you. If you want to preserve Morse, spend more time teaching a new Ham Morse and it's finer points, instead of complaining about the "No Code" alternative. Maybe you will learn a little about good operating practices and good will towards others in the process. Enough is enough.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 8, 2003
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John Clifford KD7KGX:
A flawed arguement for sure... just nonsense...
Before you go bashing all the no code techs you should take a look at yourself first.
N8VB
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Segregation, or bias? ...and What about Elmering?
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by KD7KGX on September 8, 2003
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CASPER669:
Yes, there is a segregation between General-class licensees and Techs... but that segregation is not the result of arbitrary prejudice (a bias) but instead because the former has passed Element 1 and the latter hasn't... for whatever reason (inability, stubbornness, lack of effort, etc.). And, that segregation (NOT bias, segregation) is the sole responsibility of the less-privileged party. I don't look down on no-code Techs... this is just a hobby after all and people decide for themselves their level of interest and commitment. I encourage those who show interest in upgrading to to try for their General. But I strongly oppose the efforts of some who, rather than meet the standards, want the standards lowered to meet them.
Asking me how many people I have Elmered is, in my opinion, irrelevant. It is not my responsibility to drag no-code Techs screaming into the Brave New World of HF access via (or around) Element 1. Now... have I helped other hams? Yes, numerous times, in the spirit of ham radio (giving away home-built J-Poles, loaning out study guides, answering questions, etc.). Is my license the result of an Elmer? No... I met my first active ham when I went to take my exam... and I never operated as a Tech but went straight to General and HF because that was what I wanted to do. My Elmers were QST, the ARRL website, the ARRL study guides, the ARRL Handbook, the ARRL Operations Manual... and a lot of listening before I made my first QSO (CW with an HW-9). I have built my own radio (Elecraft K2), bought, repaired, and improved my two other rigs (Ten-Tec Omni VI and Heathkit HW-9), and have learned a heck of a lot about electronics while enjoying myself thoroughly, and I continue to learn. That's why I got into the hobby.
I have only owned VHF/UHF gear for the past 6 months, have taken the ARRL ECC course, am getting involved with my local ARES group... all for utilitarian purposes and spurred on by 9/11. Let's face it, VHF/UHF FM operating is appliance operating... you buy the correct radio and antenna (or just radio if it's an HT) and you're into the local repeaters. This type of operation can be fun, and can be useful, but it is not nearly as challenging as HF (and not nearly as fun in my opinion). The amount of technical knowledge required is far less than that needed to make QSOs as a General. That this is true is a tribute to the industry for making HTs and mobile 'plug and play'. It's a lot harder and a lot more expensive to buy a complete HF station, set it up, and use it to make QSOs.
The archetypical ham radio operator is a self-starter who has curiosity, enthusiasm, innate intelligence ("common sense"), the necessary discipline to work for results, and the courage to not be afraid to fail when trying to accomplish something meaningful. Of course, all of these traits tend to separate the successful from the unsuccessful in life... perhap that explains why many successful people in all walks of life are also hams, or is it vice-versa?
Cell phones, computers, and the Internet have all had an effect on reducing the number of active hams of all classes. Twenty-five years ago there was no World Wide Web, nor could you get a cellphone for free and get unlimited long-distance calling for pennies a day. Computer technology was just beginning to become affordable to the everyday person, and boy was it primitive... my TNC is more powerful and more user-friendly than the Altair/MITS or Imsai 8080. Radios were cool then, and what else could you use to chat with someone in Africa or Europe for free? Today, most people who become Generals get into the hobby and stay involved because they want to learn more about the technology, not because they want to keep a sched with a friend in the next state or talk to their wife over the local repeater.
The future of ham radio depends on the number of technologically-savvy and electronics-curious people we can get involved in the hobby. All of the tests including Element 1 are easy enough. Rather than dumbing down the tests, perhaps our efforts as hams would be far better spent cultivating our children in elementary, junior high, and high school by setting up ham radio clubs. I'm putting my money where my mouth is by setting up an open IRLP node on a local repeater via link radio that is heavily used by a school club, in the hopes that the possibility of talking via HT to the rest of the world will encourage more to get their Tech license, and a taste of ersatz DX will spur enough of them on to go for their General. Not all kids will become hams, but hopefully those who fit the type will find out about ham radio and eventually get involved. Geez, does it sound like I hate no-code Techs?
And to those who ignored the content of my article and instead responded ad hominem, you demonstrate the exact attitude that is NOT wanted by me or most others. You are the type of people who, if you do not change your attitude, will kill ham radio as we know it and probably kill it completely. It's not about Morse... but you don't seem to get that because you don't listen to anyone who tries to explain it to you.
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What happened to all of the hams?
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by KD7KGX on September 8, 2003
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W8MW:
That is a good question. It's interesting to note that this sharp decrease in activity coincided with the rise of the IBM PC-based personal computer and also with the availability of cheap and quick telephone modems and BBS systems. Makes you wonder if the electronics hacker who made up much of the ham population went over to computers and never came back... and now he's busy arguing about code versus no-code on eHam!
Seriously, the ARRL or someone should do a study to determine what happened, and why. Then we might have some ideas as to why these enthusiastic participants suddenly lost their enthusiasm... and maybe how we can get it back.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC8UNF on September 8, 2003
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Just get rid of the code requirement, everything is gonna be fine.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NOAH on September 8, 2003
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Better yet, let's outlaw phone and just use CW on the bands.
Just think, a CW signal takes up maybe 500 Hz, which means we can fit four times as many people on the air as the original estimates called for.
Now we're talking.
Keep in mind that I'm not actually a licensed General, though it's not for lack of ability or desire to learn code-I have in fact learned code, I just haven't made it to a test session in six months.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N3EVL on September 8, 2003
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Hmmmm, sorry, but I just don't buy the (flawed) premise of this article. I particularly object to the tone that attempts to promulgate this class distinction among hams - if you don't know & do cw you're not a real ham - I will never accept this. If you cannot make an agument for the cw test requirement _in terms of cw the mode_ then it's day is done. IMHO, the day the HF bands are bursting at the seams with new, enthusiastic operators looking to DX and ragchew will be a happy day for ham radio and is _exactly_ what we need.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2NHU on September 8, 2003
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World governments have stopped using Morse.
The WARC and ITU have removed Morse code as a treaty requirement - the admins see that the 'old mode' has very little real value today.
Many countries have ALREADY reacted to this development by dropping Morse as a licensing requirement.
Morse is just another outdated mode, like spark - nothing more and nothing less - useful to be sure, but hardly necessary.
The fact is, the FCC will drop Morse for part 97- so rather than carp, let's all work on new band plans for the many users of the spectrum.
You like Morse? Beter get those QSOs in now, because in just a few years the pool of Morse-capable operators will be much smaller - the average ham is 52 years old.
Yes, the future is here, now. Will you be like the old fools that couldn't let go of "spark"? Or will you "spark" someone's interest in a great and rewarding lifetime experience by Elmering someone, like N2KBD did for me twelve years ago?
Think about it.
If you're REALLY that crazy about Morse, prove it - Elmer someone today.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N1RJA on September 8, 2003
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Doesn't it always seem like most articles posted in this forum end up in the "code vs. no-code war?? It's truly amazing! Why is it always assumed that "HF" is the crown jewel of amateur radio(today)?? I believe that there are many hams today that simply have very little desire to do HF and don't neccessarily think that HF is the crown jewel of amateur radio. In decades past, (when HF was in it's glory), upgrading had always meant more HF privelages. Made sense. Now we are many years advanced with newer technologies that in many cases, has left HF communications in the dust. Maybe it's time to consider breaking from the "HF is king" mentality and consider crowning a new king?? Satellite comms? Digital comms? Take your pick. Then we could completely restructure the licensing system towards upgrading to the new "king" of amateur radio. And lastly, it might put to bed once and for all the "code vs. no-code" war!!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC9AWS on September 8, 2003
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Radio 123US., What's your call sign? Are you even a Ham?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N3EVL on September 8, 2003
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Hmmmm, sorry, but I just don't buy the (flawed) premise of this article. I particularly object to the tone that attempts to promulgate this class distinction among hams - if you don't know & do cw you're not a real ham - I will never accept this. If you cannot make an agument for the cw test requirement _in terms of cw the mode_ then it's day is done. IMHO, the day the HF bands are bursting at the seams with new, enthusiastic operators looking to DX and ragchew will be a happy day for ham radio and is _exactly_ what we need.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 8, 2003
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RADIO123 IS A HAM, for the person that thinks he has to know. RADIO123 has answered many questions in the elmer section. What is RADIO123'S CALL, What are you wearing mirrored specs and have a sig loaded with 9mm hydroshocks. PLAYING COP TODAY?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 8, 2003
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RADIO123 IS A HAM, for the person that thinks he has to know. RADIO123 has answered many questions in the elmer section. What is RADIO123'S CALL, What are you wearing mirrored specs and have a sig loaded with 9mm hydroshocks. PLAYING COP TODAY?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC9AWS on September 8, 2003
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It really doesn't matter what anyone that posts here, thinks, or beleives. The FCC is going to be lobbied by the people that have real influence with politcians, mainly the manufactures, and others that will make money from more people that will need more HF rigs. In the area where I live the HF traffic is nil! You either use it or loose it!
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 8, 2003
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Interesting…………….I haven’t seen any other subject that so effectively brings out the unpleasant side of so many people, so consistently.
I did find KD7KGX’s article informative in one respect:…..It explained clearly what it is that many Hams seem to fear in the whole “No Code” debate. Up until now, I had been baffled as to why this was such a passionate subject. It seems clear from KD7KGX’s comments that it is very much a “Turf” issue.
Keep the numbers of HF operators small, and the bands stay nice and clear: Great idea! Just don’t forget that in keeping your numbers small, you also make yourselves a politically insignificant group, with little voting power, and NO clout. (Hmmm……what was I reading lately about BPL?)
The article also shed new light on another issue that has puzzled me; the way “New Blood” is treated in this hobby.
Just the other day, I was talking to an acquaintance who happens to be a CB enthusiast. (Go ahead and laugh, if it makes you feel superior) I asked him why he had never gone for a Ham License. His answer surprised me. He said:
“Well….I thought about it, so I went to some of the Ham sites on the ‘net, to see what it was all about:..….Boy, some of those older Hams really do specialize in ‘eating their young’ don’t they?”
He then went on to explain that he preferred the CB band, with all it’s profanity and troubles, to the “2nd Class Citizen” treatment that new Tech Licenses seem to get from other Hams.
All I can say is; “Nice Job guys,……that’s a really positive image you’ve managed to create out there”. (But that’s OK, because I now understand that you really don’t want all those CB users to “Graduate” and get into real radio and learn proper operational procedures:……that would make things even more crowded.)
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD3JF on September 8, 2003
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I think I disagree with you.... I know the point you are getting to. Remember that QRP is growing by leaps and bounds at the present.... Just because there is not a requirement for code to obtain a license does not mean nobody will be communicating with CW. Check the classified out and check out all the amateurs that are looking for QRP rigs and just not on Eham. CW is the fun mode. Like PSK you do not need much of an antenna, very little power, and you are not taking up much space working CW.
Elecraft has come out with a new QRP rig the KX1. Can you imagine the number of amateurs who have their name on the order list? It would not take much for me to sell my Alinco DX70T and build a Elecraft K1 and use it for the rest of my life. I am getting the K1 anyway even if I keep my Alinco.
It might be interesting to take a survey to check the number of Tech. licensees that have no intention of being grandfathered to General. I know some of them.
Incidently, I upgraded a few years ago to Extra class for mainly one reason.... I wanted to be able to work that 25khz on the lower portion of CW band. So, if CW is dropped as a requirement that will not cause me to not work code.
Paul Gates, KD3JF
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KA4KOE on September 8, 2003
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Ya know, I'm a rabid CW fan, and I pride myself on being able to make a bug sing.
Yes, I'm sad that code will probably go by the wayside. But, there are some merits to the no-code crowd's arguments.
I don't think the sky will fall if the CW requirements go away. I'm a helluva lot more worried about BPL, and you should be too.
Get your priorities in order and quit wasting oxygen bellyaching about things that, in the grand scheme of things, won't matter in 5 or 10 years time.
Philip Neidlinger
KA4KOE
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by 2INTEREST on September 8, 2003
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Oh, <yawn> another code/no code basherie. If you know coders think the bands are crowded, you better think again. The HF bands are so empty except during contests that you can tune entire bands and only hear two or three ongoing QSOs. The CW band segments are actually more empty than that, (except during contests) sometimes you only hear one ongoing. Of course the bands are more active in the evenings and on weekends, but not that much more active.
We should be fighting to save those bands instead of fighting between ourselves over a mode of communication whose actual usefulness in todays world is slowly shrinking to a minute fraction of its former usefulness. Instead we are being bashed over the head with tha same old arguments.
It is no wonder the ranks of technician are growing slowly--almost as many are dropping their licenses when they come up for renewal as there are people getting their first licenses. These newcomers are invited in after a nice sales pitch for ham radio and then are yelled at, kicked in the butt and pushed aside by other operators who don't even try to show the newcomers the correct and proper way to operate on the ham bands. The newcomers then use their own learned way of operating--learned on 11 meters!
When someone else tries to correct them, however properly and politely, they in turn give the same kind of treatment to that operator that they received from others on the same ham band. That is when they are branded and ostracised, over and over again. Is it any wonder why they let their license renewals drop?
I don't speak about code here, only the arguments both sides use when yelling at each other when I ask "Who really cares about ham radio?"
I think the answer is "Those who are actually on the radio instead of being on the internet and the mud sling partys like this!"
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RE: Segregation, or bias? ...and What about Elmer
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by CASPER669 on September 8, 2003
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KD7KGX:
I appreciate your willingness to respond one-on-one to my earlier post in such a well thought-out manner. It's rare to receive a reply in these forums without being flamed, so I thank you for that.
Obviously, you've also spent time getting new HAM's on the air, which is very admirable. Based on your last reply, you've also helped upgrade some Tech's through to General. Again, another admirable tactic.
My comments were written only to suggest ways to you that might help alleviate some of the issues you had mentioned in your original post. Please forgive me if they made you feel defensive. Most of the time, it's impossible to relay the actual meaning one is trying to get across where writing is concerned. I shall endeavor to correct this in future postings.
I'm very happy to hear that you have taken an interest in your local ARES group. As I'm sure someone within the group has already mentioned, they could use all the help they can get.
Forgive me if I sound like a dunce, but I'm still unclear about how this segregation is necessary. The Technician class licensees in my ARES group alone are brilliant in matters of radio theory and electronics. I'm embarrassed to say, but I'm astounded with the theories, research and hard work these folks have put into HAM radio, making me feel like I'm just along for the ride. Some have been published, while others quietly work on issues that help make APRS or Packet work so much better, never being published. They appear to be quite comfortable right where they are. I respect them because of their professionalism, hard work, and their willingness to share all that they have learned with anyone. I consider them to be true HAM's, adding to the community new methods, theories and designs. Because they don't have the code (again, for whatever reason) doesn't make them any less of a HAM to me.
It's been my experience (as limited as that may be) that every HAM has their own 'niche', and they usually progress from there at their own speed. When segregation occurs, this forces a hierarchy that can sound or be viewed as degrading for some, while others are above them. This can interferre with the comradity and the partnership that I was under the impression existed between all HAM's.
I thank you, again, for your kind words and I hope one day to speak to you on the air - hopefully about theories, electronics and other issues that I'm sure I could use help on!
God bless and 73!
Chris KC2KFW
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by GRAYLINEDXING on September 8, 2003
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I do Elmer people. I do demos, and teach the local scout troop. You should see those kids eyes light up when they see code come alive on a screen, yes computer. Yes the computer for first contact. Then it's their turn. Straight key, put down their name on paper using the silly dots and dash's and show them how to send it, then let them try. By the end of one evening these 9 - 11year olds are able to send " hello mom and dad" When the parents pick them up, both the kids and the parents are proud. Problem is kids pick up the code in snap. The older you get the longer it takes to lean, proven fact. Kids see the code as an adventure. Knowing, and doing something most other people can't do. If you just want to 10-4 good buddy, or just flap your yap, get a calling card or get on CB.
Why do we need to do what the rest of the world is doing ??? In most of the countries dropping the code requirement, the number of hams, or potential hams is small.
The real problem is that THE NO CODE GROUP DOESN'T want any rules. Not just in ham radio, but in every part of life. CRY, CRY, CRY, till you get what you want. I JUST WANT IT, SO GIVE IT TO ME. THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CW REQURIEMTENT, IS A REQURIEMENT
Not only do the no code advocates want to do away with the code, THEY HAVE ALSO ASKED THE FCC TO MAKE THE TEST EASIER. GO READ THE PROPOSALS THAT ARE INFRONT OF THE FCC.
THINK I'M WRONG, GO READ THE FCC LINKS POSTED HERE ON EHAM.
They have also posted the same here on eham forms.
SO WHAT DO REALLY HAVE……………..
They want to have, people who really just want 10 CB bands.
Lets see what they are saying.
No code testing.
Easier test or no test.
Do away with the CW subbands ( I guess digital also ).
AM, ban it.
FM, yeah , why not ban it to.
Never once did I hear a no coder say……………..
"remove the code test, but lets replace it with a real technical exam, one with out prewritten answer books, and also include a basic skills test, like soldering a mic connector, or making a dipole"
By the way, what does soldering up a mic connector, and making a antenna have to do with ham radio.
You all just watch. Some anti code advocate will say " well who needs to solder a connector, or MAKE a antenna to be a ham"
It's called DUMBING UP THE HOBBY. Call what it is.
When did you ever see that proposed. Never.
OK fine. Lets do away with the subband, and band plans. Lets just let everyone go where they want to.
Boy won't it be fun when a RTTY, PKS, or CW contest goes all over the band. What a hoot.
Lets face it, all you people wanting to toss out the CW testing requirement, your just to lazy to learn. You really don’t want a hobby. I bet you would put up a big old hissy fit if you had to take a real exam, that did not have a answer study guide. My G**, what if you had to buy some technical books, and really study.
Hey here's another idea you guys could push. After you win the code test battle why not do the same in you local school system. DEMAND that your kids get copies of the exact questions that will be on their exams, and, and, oh hell why not, lets just DEMAND that little Sally and Johnny get the answer sheet to the SAT test also.
WHY not. Big folks don't need to study for anything, they just sit in the corner and cry till they get it.
This issue is not about the mode CW. It's about making sure that people using a resource, yes it is a resource, have some respect for the hobby.
As for the congestion on the bands. Well I don't know where some of you folks have been, but just try finding a empty spot on 75 meters during the evening to have a QSO ( don't you just love that ham talk ). Same is true on 40 meter most days and nites, and 20 when it is open. These are just the bands where all the newbees will be flocking.
I really don't think you ( no code, no test, no anything hams ) will stick around for to long. The cost of gear, sending out for repairs, lighting strikes, RF in the phones, TV, VCR's and the like, having to put up antennas. Nope, that will take it's toll.
Nope the issue is not the mode, CW. It's the need to be tested. YOU JUST DON'T LIKE IT.
HERE'S ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT
" Cheese Line Hams "
Just like the Gov't giving out cheese, all you need to do is get in line, and just have it handed out to you.
What ever happen to pride. Pride in working. Maybe working hard, or maybe just working a little each day, to achieve something. What ever happen to feeling good about reaching a goal. Seems to be a thing of the past. To bad since it is a foundation that makes all people proud of themselves, and breeds confidence.
Why should you just be handed something. There are many, many rules, regulations, policies, hurdles, etc....... that we must all be tested for, provide facts as to why we are worthy, and more. Why don't we just hand out small plane pilots licenses ??? Why not. I'm sure many people would just like to just hop in and go. Why have regs and rules.
Whine, whine, whine. That's all we hear today. I want this, I want that, on and on and on it goes. We live in a world to day of “I want it, so just let me have it”. I deserve it. Why should I have to........... and most of all, I make a good buck, I can buy and have anything I want.
How about this one, while we are just giving away things. Why not just give everyone enough money to be as rich as _____________ fill in the blank. No need to work for what you get, just ask for it.
I believe that much of this “why don't you just give it to me” attitude about privileges is due to the lack of time people may have in their lives to study and increase their skills. Life is busy these days, time to do things, read, learn new things. Time is in short supply for many people. If that's the problem, then don't ask others to solve your problem by giving you something for free.
In case the new hams on the block have forgotten, amateur radio has always been based on some amount of technical skills, and proof of ability. How easy you have it. Twenty five years ago, you needed to perhaps, to buy several technical books so that you could learn the information necessary to pass the FCC exam. Then there was the crying about the Dick Bash study guides. Then guess what. The FCC and the ARRL, decided it was great to just hand out the test questions, and the correct answers. I do agree that it's not all bad. The need for much of the old theory is outdated.
Code ??? well in all honesty anyone can learn 5 – 10 wpm. Actually 13 wpm presents an honest left/right brain problem. This has well documented, but slower speeds can be mastered by anyone, who wants to. It just takes time and effort. How did millions of people do it before you. How did thousands of people with no background in code, learn it in just a few weeks during WWII (and no I was not even born at the time), but thousands did. So stop all the crying that you can't do it. Does it take time, YES. Does it take an effort, YES.
Yes we need new blood in amateur radio. Not just young, but young and old. Many people who are now active hams, did not get into the hobby till they were older. What we need is people who want to be proud of being a Amateur Radio Operator. Proud of being able to serve in an emergency, or disaster. Proud knowing something.
Just think about something for a min. How many times have you seen a Eham forum request for information, that could have been easily answered buy a little digging around on the Internet ??? See it all the time. Or how about asking how to connect / setup, something that is already spelled out in the manuals. Yes !!! you will make mistakes, but that's part of learning, and when you solve the problem you should be proud of your self.
Just because you can shoot hoops, should you be in the NBA finals ??
Just because you can set up a sound card to a mic plug using a Rig Baster interface, should we just give you more privileges ?? I think not.
Pride, sense of worth, pride in learning something new, pride in knowing just a little more than the average guy on the street, pride in being part of a group of people who are special in the what they accomplish.
Nothing of any worth as a person is obtained by just being handed it for free. Nothing of any worth in Amateur Radio is obtained by being handed it for free.
By the way, just because you can run in a local marathon, does not mean that you should get a starting spot on the Olympic Team. You earn it, and you earn it by hard work. Those that do are proud of what they accomplished.
Proud hams VS cheese line hams.
I have an idea. While your in the Gov't cheese line, waiting for your free cheese, we'll just give you a free extra class ( ham ) ticket.
We can call it the "HAM and Cheese" program
AS I said way back at the top. Kids seem to really like CW, and have very little trouble learning it.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 8, 2003
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GRAYLINEDXING:
What a long winded, negative biased RANT! I hope you feel better after spouting such nonsense.
Talk about going overboard - you seem to think everyone is asking for all rules to be abolished. I think most people who would like to see the testing of an outdated mode (CW) eliminated would agree to a more comprehensive written tests covering operating procedure and technical questions in place of element 1. This would be a more than fair exchange.
If you like CW then operate CW. I don't advocate testing for proficiency in setting up a PSK31 station even though I love PSK31. How would all the old-geezer computationally-challenged hams like to have a PSK31 test shoved down their throats?
N8VB
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 8, 2003
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In a previous post the following was written:
>>"Just think about something for a min. How many times have you seen a Eham forum request for information, that could have been easily answered buy a little digging around on the Internet ??? See it all the time. Or how about asking how to connect / setup, something that is already spelled out in the manuals. Yes !!! you will make mistakes, but that's part of learning, and when you solve the problem you should be proud of your self."<<
Excuse me.........but isn't HELPING EACH OTHER the whole reason we join clubs, and sites like eHam.com? What kind of fraternity is it where some of the more experienced members want to just stand back, with a self righteous sneer, and watch others "make mistakes"?
Again I say; "Good job guys....great PR."
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N3EVL on September 8, 2003
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GRAYLINEDXING included (among all manner of bogus accusations) in his rant:
"...THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CW REQURIEMTENT, IS A REQURIEMENT..."
IMHO, the real problem is that some wish to preserve a CW requirement for reasons that have nothing to do with actually using CW.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB1IUB on September 8, 2003
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I am tech that can not pass the code test.
I believe that I could find some pyschological
testing information that explains that
the testing scenario is not acceptable
for me. I do not have auditory processing
like other people. I bet that most circuit
designers are a similar vein. I am a
visual thinker.
I had thought I was copying all the call
signs, correctly. Apparently, I was way
off.
I'm getting a tired of this big code nonsense
and how much one is degraded for not passing
a mere 5 wpm code test. I am always reminded
when I come to this website about how the 5wpm
test is not a real test. I have seen many
comments about how 5 wpm can be passed with
a little study in two weeks time.
Do you really want to talk to someone on the
air at 13 WPM about how 5 WPM is not real code?
Statements such as individuals with 5 WPM code
are technologically incompetent do not display
the cordial and courtiful attitude that hooked
me on amateur radio.
I would like the moderators to stop allowing these
posts. You are never going to get five dollars
from me, if you think this barrage of hate is
fantastic discussion.
Bill
www.qrz.com/kb1iub
www.billohara.com - website of where I work per diem.
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RE: GRAYLINEDXING
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by N2NHU on September 8, 2003
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Are you licensed? What is your call?
You are spewing the same crap as months ago...
http://www.eham.net/articles/5389
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC8KEQ on September 8, 2003
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The other day I attended a hamfest. It was a very good event with lots of flee market tables, amateur radio dealers ,forums and lots of really nice prizes. I saw lots of hams renewing old aquaintences and meeting others face to face for the first time. It all seened to be all you could ask for......except. I noticed the average age of those attending in my opinion was 50 plus. While my little survey is by no means scientific it didn't take long to notice that there seemed to be less than 1 percent attending that were young people say 20 years old or younger. If this is the face of amateur radio today where all of the worry is about code or no code, dumbing down the hobby and all of the other debates, than pretty soon the only place you will be able to see ham antennas will be at nursing homes. People we could debate these issues forever but it will mean absolutely zero if month by month we see fewer people in our club meetings, or on the air at all.
I have nothing against these debates (it showes genuine interest) but we have completely ignored a lot of issues just as important. Think about some day in the future when you pick up the mic or grab the key to call CQ and it takes you a long time before you get a reply. I hope that the FCC will not drag this out very long so we can get back to defending the hobby from things like BPL and the alienation of younger people towards joining our wonderful hobby. Thanks to eHam for letting us debate. 73 to all of you. Gotta mow the yard.
KC8KEQ
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RE: GRAYLINEDXING
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by N2NHU on September 8, 2003
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GRAYLINEDXING,
You are a CBer for sure-
http://www.eham.net/forums/Amplifiers/272
In this article you said:
"...How much can you run though 12 ga stranded wire ??? I know 7 KW will be OK……… If everything else is 110 %. Yes, more than one person has set a tree unfire. Just keep the end of the antenna out of the trees. Good luck in the contest. "
7 KW?!?!
Go back to your unlicensed transmitters and stop fooling around with the big boys.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 8, 2003
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KA4KOE, PHILIP IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Table the CW/ANTI-CW DEBATE. BPL IS THE REAL ENEMY.
PHILP is a E.E AND A P.E.,he knows about what is going down.
I love a good conspiracy theory. THE BPL COMPANIES ARE STIRRING UP THESE CW VS ANTI CW DEBATES TO DIVIDE
US!
Just finished a letter for the FCC. The gist is that hams created radio technology. MAJOR ARMSTRONG A HAM, INVENTED SUPERHET, AND FM STEREO. Hams still do much public service. The media no longer gives hams coverage. The public thinks CB,GMRS AND HAM are kinda the same thing. People know nothing of the communications act of 1934!
Forget about affording HF! The real question should be, will HF be usable at all!
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K0RGR on September 8, 2003
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Sorry, your math looks good, but it doesn't agree with reality.
There might be a real concern if we do get a couple hundred thousand newcomers on HF, and they all decide to run 1500 watts. I have urged the Commission to limit the no-code HFers to 50 watts, initially. This will help to eliminate any threat of overcrowding.
There are already over 1 million Japanese hams. Most of them are no-coders with HF priveleges. They've been around for decades - if you live near the West Coast, these are the endless pileups of J stations you work once the propagation shifts to the Pacific.
By your calculations, those J stations must already be stacked about 200 deep on each HF frequency.
Now, I recently confirmed a long-held suspicion. From the middle states of the eastern seaboard and California, you hear 2-3 times the activity on HF that we hear up here in the Upper Midwest. That's just a result of geography and proximity to large population centers.
Now, having said that, I think most old timers will agree, the level of activity is nothing compared to what it was even in the early 80's. You really couldn't squeeze a signal on 20 meters on Friday evening. 80 meters was full from 3500 to 3650 with CW, RTTY, and AMTOR. 75 meter SSB was about the same story as 20 meters in the daytime.
I doubt we'll ever hear that again, but I wish we could. Things might get pretty tight on Field Day and Sweepstakes. That's when I'll pull out my secret weapons: CW and PSK31, similar to what I used to do when 20 meter phone was too busy decades ago. That will be incentive enough for many no-coders to learn the code!
In spite of having a no-code HF license for decades, Japan's total ham population is only 1.6 million - I cannot believe that we will exceed that number here.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC0PBC on September 8, 2003
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Poor logic, many (equally poor) assumptions, and a basic "lump all the no-code techs in with the truck drivers running linears" attitude.
And then all the ensuing bickering through the rest of the thread.
Makes me wonder about this hobby I got myself into.
I've done my share of public service work this summer, have you?
I've also done my share of helping others with equipment (INCLUDING HF equipment, thank-you-very-much).
Alas, I'm a lowly no-code tech though. One of the hordes that is going to stink up your precious airwaves.
I've been working on code as I find the time, but I'm beginning to wonder -- will passing Element 1 somehow transform me into a snob??
I know passing Element 1 won't teach me anything about radio, electronics, propogation and so on -- because I've heard plenty of Generals and above that know very little about those things.
Do I get all snooty and ridicule them for not knowing electronic and radio theory? Nope. I just help them as I can, assuming they want/need help and are willing to accept it.
You folks in the heat of this battle -- both CW elitists and no-coders alike -- I wish you realized how ridiculous this all sounds. Over and over and over again...
73, Gary
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4MDL on September 8, 2003
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You bring up a good point. (Not enough space on phone subbands.) That is a problem I don't dispute. But it has an easy fix though. How about all that unused space between the data subband and the beacons. Move the beacons down the band and open the rest up to phone. Case closed and problem solved. I love CW becouse its a fun mode, but lets face it, EVERYONE is between the bottom of the band to the data subbands around XX.080 Mhz. Then its just a lot of nothing until you hit the beacons somewhere in the middle or top of the CW/Data Subband. It always seemed to be a lot of useless space to me.
KH6/W4MDL
Thomas
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Incorrect! No Problems in Europe with Nocodes!
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by HB9PJT on September 8, 2003
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John KD7KXG is total wrong! Here in Europe many countries have opend the HF for no code amateurs. The big run is absent and the discipline of the no codes is very good. You are wrong when you think that shortwave is the biggest goal for every nocode amateur. Do not belive in unrealistic theory! Ask some European amateurs about the new situation!
By the way: KD7KXG's calculation of max count of QSO's is absolutly incorrect. A ham with expiriences knows that every frequency can be used for many QSO's at the same time because the propagation does not allow to reach every place on every frequency.
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RE: Incorrect! No Problems in Europe with Nocodes!
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by W6TH on September 8, 2003
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FRIENDS, ROMANS AND COUNTRY, LEND ME YOUR EARS ONCE AGAIN.
THIS IS ALL AN ILLUSION, Its not happening. Take your choice.
An erroneous perception of reality.
An erroneous concept or belief.
The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.
Illusionism in art.
A fine transparent cloth, used for dresses or trimmings.
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RE: Incorrect! No Problems in Europe with Nocodes!
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by W6TH on September 8, 2003
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FRIENDS, ROMANS AND COUNTRY, LEND ME YOUR EARS ONCE AGAIN.
THIS IS ALL AN ILLUSION, Its not happening. Take your choice.
An erroneous perception of reality.
An erroneous concept or belief.
The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.
Illusionism in art.
A fine transparent cloth, used for dresses or trimmings.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA7NCL on September 8, 2003
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Can we afford not to let what few hams there are left not to be on the HF bands.
The crowded band theory just doen't wash anymore. Listen to the bands. Except for contests they are very quiet.
For those of us old enough (which is most all of us these days) think back 30 years to how difficult it was to find a spot on 20 mtr ssb or even on CW!
There is room for legions of PSK and digital signals! There is room for the guys who listen a lot and talk in groups and round tables or nets.
I am tired of all the guys who want exclusive frequencies that they can sit and talk with their ancient buddies undisturbed.
I am tired of calling CQ on bands I know are open and getting no response because there are not enough HF hams left and those few who are left are so old they have to go to bed at 9PM local time.
When I started out as a new ham in the 70's there were hams on 24 hours a day, you could have a QSO on CW, SSB or even RTTY at all hours of the day or night. Bands with sporadic propagation (think 10mtrs) were active because locals were yakking away to make noise on the bands.
But some guys like quiet bands......quiet like a tomb or a cemetary. Think about it.
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RE: Incorrect! No Problems in Europe with Nocodes!
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by W8JJI on September 8, 2003
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Dump the code requirement !!!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 8, 2003
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Hams of today are dx'ers and not rag chewers. Get a KW and join them.
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True HAMs, Super Hams, or just people who want to
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by KD7KGX on September 8, 2003
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CASPER669 sez...
"Forgive me if I sound like a dunce, but I'm still unclear about how this segregation is necessary. The Technician class licensees in my ARES group alone are brilliant in matters of radio theory and electronics. I'm embarrassed to say, but I'm astounded with the theories, research and hard work these folks have put into HAM radio, making me feel like I'm just along for the ride. Some have been published, while others quietly work on issues that help make APRS or Packet work so much better, never being published. They appear to be quite comfortable right where they are. I respect them because of their professionalism, hard work, and their willingness to share all that they have learned with anyone. I consider them to be true HAM's, adding to the community new methods, theories and designs. Because they don't have the code (again, for whatever reason) doesn't make them any less of a HAM to me. "
I sez...
There's no doubt that many very intelligent people are happy to become, and remain, Tech licensees. There's also no doubt that many very intelligent people who are Tech licensees are not happy about the lack of HF privileges... but rather than pass the Element 1 test they want to see the code requirement removed.
I don't know what a "true HAM" is. But, it seems to me that the gist of your argument (and that of others who have touted the virtues of this-or-that Tech) is that since these "true HAMS" are so smart, so gifted, have worked on ham related issues and have accomplished something, why shucks... we should just GIVE these sterling examples of HAM-hood HF privileges in appreciation for their efforts -- way to go, guys!
I don't buy it. A true General licensee has passed Elements 1, 2, and 3. A true Expert licensee has passed Elements 1 thru 4. A true Tech licensee has passed Element 2. I'll repeat myself, again, and state that no licensee is any "better" than another based purely on their class of license. Some just have earned HF privileges, and some haven't.
CASPER669 concludes...
It's been my experience (as limited as that may be) that every HAM has their own 'niche', and they usually progress from there at their own speed. When segregation occurs, this forces a hierarchy that can sound or be viewed as degrading for some, while others are above them. This can interferre with the comradity and the partnership that I was under the impression existed between all HAM's.
AS DO I...
Comradeship comes from the sharing of experiences and mutual respect. There is comradeship in ham radio because, unlike the other non-commercial services, we all have to earn our licenses. As the license level increases, the tests gets harder, and the numbers get smaller, comradeship increases along with pride in accomplishment.
It's like the black-beret thing going on in the Army. Up until a few years ago, only special units got to wear a beret... the regular army had to wear the standard baseball cap cover. Of course, the beret is a chick magnet and there's nothing more exiting to an 18-year old guy than the prospect of earning a hard-to-get beret and having the lovelies flock around him. Of course, under the Clinton "leadership" someone decided that soldiers needed to feel good about themselves... get some "self-esteem"... so if EVERYONE could were a beret then, geez, we'd all be gung-ho soldiers. The alternative would have been to require ALL soldiers to meet the physical standards of the elite units... but that wasn't going to happen, so it was just easier to give 'em all a black beret. Now, do you think that the troops who have EARNED their berets look upon the 18-year-old boot as their equal just because he's wearing a beret too? Do you think that the 18-year-old beret-wearing boot is as well-trained as the elite troop?
Now, ham radio isn't as competitive as the military and the subject certainly isn't life-or-death... but human nature is human nature. We all want to be recognized as being special, and many of us will be motivated by this desire to exert ourselves. Incentive licensing was an attempt to get human nature to work for ham radio by getting likely hams (those who were self-motivating) to exert themselves and learn more in exchange for recognition and privileges. The hard part is figuring out how hard to make the upgrading, and if you look at the numbers of hams who have upgraded since April 2000 when the 13 and 20 wpm requirements were eliminated, you can see that a LOT of Generals have upgraded to Extra... but not very many Techs have upgraded to General and/or Extra.
I guess those of us who don't want to see the current testing standards reduced feel this way because we believe that it is EASY to get HF privileges... and we also believe that the answer to ham radio is not quantity but quality. Now, an argument can be made that code proficiency doesn't mean quality nor does it show the proper attitude... but the code requirement is the ONLY part of the ham radio license that actually requires a commitment to study and the willingness to accept the code requirement shows a get-along, work-within-the-rules attitude (in my opinion).
I'm open to other testing methods that demonstrate this attitude, and I'm also open to granting all no-code Techs Technician-Plus privileges (including Novice HF access), but I'm NOT open to granting General HF privileges to those who haven't passed the code test.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WN3VAW on September 8, 2003
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I could spend several paragraphs pointing out the technical, social, and logical problems with this argument, but I think the issue can best be summed up in two words:
We'll manage.
Sheesh.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC0PDH on September 8, 2003
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I can't believe the number of times this Code / No Code argument has surfaced in the few months I have been a ham. Having said that, your article was heavier on solid content than most. But I think you mistake Techs and their designs on HF.
I am a no-code Tech, that seemingly despised class who aren't commited enough to be real hams. I also am what has been called a utilitarian; I don't know much about electronics, own a radio and am happy I can make contacts in my region on VHF.
I don't know much about electronics, but I am learning, and want to learn. I am signed up for code classes, even though it looks like it won't be needed soon - because it interests me. I want to learn it and use it.
I mention these things by way of making a point - there are no-codes who want on HF, want to do right by the traditions of radio; who are inspired by the thought of working DX. Not all of them want to use the CW mode, let it be treated as a separate mode as has been suggested elsewhere; part of testing, but not essential except in the overall scheme of your test score.
I just don't buy it that there are legions of us lowly no-codes who want to plunk down big bucks for an HF rig, antenna, etc... so they can talk with someone on the other side of the world who only wants a new contact. There are plenty of VHF users who have no interest in HF bands, for whom the mistique of DX is meaningless. They like to ragchew with local buddies, work events and the like. With the current testing regime in place, are they really going to flock to HF bands? If they are as lazy as you present them, would they even bother?
The removal of the code requirement won't open floodgates of people moving up. It will open the door for those who may not want to use the CW mode, but truly want to work DX. Why not let them come up. They are probably young, motivated and want to learn. Isn't that what Ham radio needs right now?
A final note: I am relatively new to ham radio, and so not so far outside the non-ham perspective. People don't envy the big towers like we might; don't value code like we might. What fires the imagination is communication with others through our own ingenuity and hard work. We look collegial, approachable, competent.
What happens around this issue gives the lie to that image, and has made this ham embarassed. Issues are divisive, but let's work them out like adults; like people your average person would want this SERVICE to provide to them for help in an emergency, in the passing of traffic. We shine when we don't lose sight of that.
73
Michael
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 8, 2003
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DRINK STEAK !....A TALL TASTY GLASS-0-BEEF!
DOOH, WRONG EPUB
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AB0XE on September 8, 2003
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The solution is easy
Give everybody HF privileges and then
Eliminate all the SSB bands and make everything
CW. Then we will have room for everybody.
Yahoo mountain dew!!!!!
It will be great !!!!!!
--... ...--
Steve
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N9CYS on September 8, 2003
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Laughed so hard I almost got in a wreck the other day. I was monitoring some ham (who evidently memorized the answer pool) working a dutch ham over a Chicago repeater IRLP link.
This guy couldn't believe he was talking to Holland. Kept asking about his modulation, sig strength, skip, etc. VIA REPEATER!?!? Later gushed about working DX with an HT! I know he was thinkin', "Only 99 more for DXCC on 2M!" Dude, you worked a REPEATER!!!!
I should've had him QSY to simplex so I could explain his gaffe, but I didn't want to rain on his parade. Besides, the next guy he worked was hoping the band was still OPEN!!!
Apparently, some parts of the ham gene pool have become little more than a puddle. OK, I give in - lose the morse requirement, but please, PLEASE, quit publishing the test questions AND answers. Make the tests more difficult. RTFM. It's TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSYYYYYYY!!!!
BTW, I'm an old timer but not an old fart - in my forties, so don't bother flamin' me with the typical CW/old fart BS!
If ya wanna play (radio), ya gotta pay (your dues)! Keep incentive licensing an incentive!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K3UD on September 8, 2003
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Ed, W5HTW wrote.......
"Maybe that's when ham radio started its downhill slide, as testing became a joke when the FCC handed it over to the peers."
Even when the FCC did the testing there were always hams giving the license tests for the Conditional (General), and the old Novice and Technician classes. This was back in the time period when the General class had all amateur privileges. The payoffs for licenses that you mention went on back then as reading old issues of QST and CQ will reveal.
When 73 magazine started in 1960 Wayne Green was always quick to point out where and how this was happening going so far one time as to name a club where each new non ham member received a Technician license (5-WPM, General theory test) shortly after joining. There is nothing new about this except perhaps the scope. (Although I always wondered why the FCC did not clamp down on it).
The VE system certainly has more checks and balances han the old Conditional testing system had.
This was in the 50s and 60s (a Golden Age for ham radio?) Of course, if the FCC suspected anything, a ham could be called in the FCC for a re-test. They still do it today.
I personally did a lot of instructing and testing for the old Novice and Technician license back in the early 70s and again in the late 80s. People worked hard to pass the tests just as many people do today. Of course the FCC itself prepared the tests then, but all the info you needed to know was in the license manual. We ran classes for the code and theory in order to bring he technical material to life.
The present VE system just expanded on what was already being done in terms of testing. What I am not sure of is whether the ham clubs as a whole are doing as much teaching as they used to.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by X-WB1AUW on September 8, 2003
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I am a hunter.
I hunt the HF phone segments for DX.
I hunt on every HF band for DX CW signals.
Most of the NO-CODE! will NEVER shoot CW prey. LOW-code target shooters will not be able to identify if they shot CW prey.
I enjoy hunting, and will hunt where hunting is good.
Feel sorry for the NO-CODE! and LOW-code ops.
They will never know the thrill of working to pull a CW signal out of the noise.
They will NEVER hear the beauty of a great bug op.
They will never hear the music of CW.
They will never enjoy the beat and cadence of their own call.
CW is ONLY a mode!
I’ve tried and I can’t, so CW tests must GO!
They are like tourists in a foreign country, criticizing “foreign” culture—let us in; change your culture to ours; we know better than you.
Some NO_CODE! ops will become good ops. Many LOW_code ops will imerse themselves in part of our culture, and be positive additions.
Many NO-CODE! and LOW-code ops will not last until the next upswing in sun spots, especially if they all try to squeeze into the SSB portions of the few HF bands which open, or have as their only joy arguing, and making excuses why they can’t accomplish goals.
They will wither and die. Fiddle on; fiddle on Grasshopper; winter is coming.
73 OT dit dit
Bob [ ; - )
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 8, 2003
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hmmmmm, what can we afford.
one poster had veal flavored ice cream
I drunk a t-bone steak.
2 day old sun rippened suishi is inexpensive
hungarian snot steak is for hams hungry for no cw.
did some one say yoohoo and mountain dew shakes.
a demerol knish, schedual II
ok, i am taken food orders.....next!
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N9UWI on September 8, 2003
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John,
After watching this ongoing debate, and for so long keeping quite about it. I have watched and read most of the comments made about the code no-code debate.
First the facts. I am a no-code operator, N9UWI I have had the call for 10 years now. Only once did I make a serious error in operation on one of the many 2m repeaters I use. The ham that talked to me about it helped me to see what I needed to do, and helped to make sure I did it right.
“Two Types of Hams—Two Types of Ham Radio”
John you stated
The vast majority of Techs who just want to talk to someone in a foreign country on their radio don't care whether they're using their 2m mobile or a new HF rig. These users, what I call 'utilitarians', are more interested in talking than the technology behind the talking. Utilitarians include truck drivers who buy 2m and HF rigs to facilitate communications without bothering to get a license. Utilitarians run CB with linears because they want to talk further than the legal maximum of 5 watts will allow. Utilitarians get Tech licenses and get into ham radio because they don't really care about electronics but want to be able to talk long distances without using a cell phone. While most of these Utilitarian licensees operate within the rules and regulations, they also are not willing to upgrade their licenses to gain additional privileges. In short, Utilitarian operators are not the future of ham radio, but instead will be the force that kills amateur radio, as we know it.
While my job gave me the time and also while I was in college, I was active in ESDA in Peoria, IL. I was an officer in the Bradley University Amateur radio Club (during that time, rebuilt the station and the antenna system). Also worked with the Peoria Area Amateur Radio Club on superfest the annual Hamfest. The best experience I had was doing a great deal of work for the ARRL convention that happened in Peoria.
As you can see, "I have not given anything to the hobby, and there is no way that I am the future of ham radio".
But many people like yourself have commented to me that I am not a real Ham due to the fact that I don’t know code. You don’t have to know code to be a real ham. What you must do is enjoy the hobby, and work to make the better for everyone. There have been a number of older operators who have helped me out along the way, and one of those was my old Scoutmaster who had an HF rig on all our trips. He like most operators have supported my learning more, helped me out, and never looked down on what I did not know. The problem is after all this time; I am watching something I love get ripped apart with the mentality that if I had to do it so do you. Got news for you things change and life is not always fair. Please support the hobby, if there is a problem where you are take action to fix it, help someone out. When was the last time you spent time 60 feet up on a tower to fix the antenna system that you did not have the license to use, I did it twice.
I personally have tried a number of times to get past the code; so far I have not. I enjoy what I do now, but would also like to be able to operate on HF. I would like to see the code part of the test removed, but ***I also don’t support the entire test pool being out there for people to memorize***.
There will always be good and bad ham operators, just like there are good and bad people in all aspects of life.
In case you are wondering what I would do with HF, I would like to set up a simple dipole system, and see what I can do with the lowest power settings I can manage. I have had lots of fun on 2m simplex, running very low power and a good antenna system, so am I going to run out and put up a system with 1500w and a large tower, no. Will I make sure to use 10 calls, no. Am I a good operator, yes, does most of the ham community realize this, yes they do. It is time everyone accepted us for what we can do, and what we offer to the hobby.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by THEWISEONE on September 8, 2003
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yet another boring dead end response to a article. Most of the people adding comments are from the crybaby force who only have a double digit I.Q.. GROW UP YOU PEOPLE REALLY NEED TO GET A LIFE!!! BETTER SMELL THE ROSES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB7LYM on September 8, 2003
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I have seen all that talking and finger poking before. I can still hear it... You must do it like our forefathers did. There is no other way. CW must be here forever. Like it or not. Now lets take a sample. Here we have an Electronical Engineer of NASA who does not see the importance of the obsolete CW but the Old Guru's say...Like your Forefathers or out you go !! They ( The Guruh's ) think and that might be hard for them that we all are obligated to learn the dots and the Dahs.And then the numbers that are given. Picked like Apples from a tree.
For a moment I thought that it was Ross Perot at its best.
Nah.... Go with the flow or swim upstream with an anvil around your neck. Those OLD ONES that don't like it...well soon they will be replaced by those with navel rings, ear rings and only the Lord knows where all the other rings are attached. They will be your future Hams and Officials from the FCC.
Note: For the Old Ones there is always Cable TV
kb7lym
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 8, 2003
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Ed, W5HTW wrote.......$200 for a extra, yes, and I write 6 or more for free. I have never seen so much dishonesty through Amateur radio clubs and have witnessed the cheating of such.
One of many examples:
Practiced tapes used for the testing.
Very poor 5 wpm copy, overlooked.
There you go:
Is this really a true ham radio?
I regret being there to see that.
------------
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by LOWBANDER on September 8, 2003
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Lets face it, more than likely the FCC will eliminate the code requirement in the near future. Am I worried that the bands will suddenly become full of strong signals on HF. Nope! Most trailer parks don’t allow towers, so we won’t be able to hear the CBPlussers anyway……
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by MUNGO on September 8, 2003
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I'm glad the fcc will drop the cw req.
I will gladly welcome all the new hams to HF !!
They deserve HF just as much as anyone else!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 8, 2003
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I am going to take a break from this, ah, ah, oh, code no-code and get to my kitchen and enjoy our California oranges and our Washington red apples.
Please don't leave as I will be back.
P.S. I work 100% Continental Code and not cw.
You see, my code gets through to the "real hams".
73, 30, W6TH
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N9UWI on September 8, 2003
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MUNGO,
Thanks. Nice to have the support.
Oliver
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AG4DG on September 8, 2003
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The Morse Code enthusiasts should look forward to overcrowded SSB bands on HF, because this would highlight the selling points of CW - readability in a lower SNR environment and narrower bandwidth.
Are crowded amateur radio bands such a bad thing? If our bands are too empty, then commercial interests will use that as an excuse to appropriate them from us. Case in point: parts of the 1.25m band.
Eliminating CW testing will actually lead to MORE CW operators. The CW TESTING requirement is a turn-off to outsiders, and the non-ham engineers and other technical people represent the type of people we want to recruit. Once they're IN the hobby, they will be more receptive to the merits of Morse Code communications. Until they experience amateur radio, they will see Morse Code as just a 19th Century ritual of the Old Boys' Club.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KA4KOE on September 8, 2003
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Hey JJH, sally on up to the bar....have one on me. Whaddaya want, old boy? We uns gots -
Melon Rind misty drink with bug tears
100 Octane AV gas with a JP-4 chaser
MEK, Cherry Flavor only. Tums are on the house.
Jack and Dope.
Demerol with your choice of Halothane, Fluothane, Ether, or Chloroform--let us choose your partial pressure om!!! Don't want to lose you.
Shirley Temples for those with delicate tummies.
FREE CHERRIES AND SODY CRACKERS FOR THE BOYS!!!!
Sally up, Sally up!!!!
AND ON TO ELDORADO!!!!!
Philip
KA4KOE
.....this is probably the most intelligent comment on this thread to date.
BLECH!!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W1RFI on September 8, 2003
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The analysis does not take into account propagation. On 75 meters, for example, it is entirely possible that multiple QSOs can be taking place at the same time. Even on 20-10 meters, the skip zone involved in propagation and the antenna directivity involved permits spectrum reuse over geography.
It also assumes that all of those simultaneous operators are going to be using SSB channels. Some will be on CW, digital, operating VHF or, more likely, not operating at all.
It also does not take into account the percentage of time spent listening instead of transmitting. When I get on the air, I spend most of the time tuning around.
Even during the major contests, when lots of operators get on at the same time, there are many thousands of QSOs taking place over a relatively short period of time.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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DON'T LIMIT HOBBY BY BANDWIDTH!
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by K4III on September 8, 2003
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Forget CW, Let's try for more Spectrum!
If what you imply is true... When was the last time there wasn't enough band & spectrum to accomodate hams? The FCC seems to always be cutting back...
I'd rather talk to more people using more spectrum alottment than less and possible cuts, Wouldn't you?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by GRAYLINEDXING on September 8, 2003
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Posting on eham is a lot like going fishing. Some days you go trolling and get nothing. Other days you get hits left and right.
Seems like I cut me a few out of the heard today.
N8VB - Rant. Well maybe. But, you read it. Read the different eham postings, and the petitions to the FCC. Several of the petitions, and many postings are asking not only dropping the CW testing, but also making the test easier. Just spend the time looking and you will find them for your self. Everything I outlined, has been suggested. Not my ideas, the ideas of others. If you read between the lines, some people are even suggesting that CW be abolished from use.
N2NHU - While not an "old timer", I was an extra class before you were out of high school. Guess again never owned a CB. For Pete's sake, get into the real world. You don't think people are running REALLY HIGH power. You can call Henry Radio up and order yourself a Henry 8K in a snap. Plenty of amps exist that will run 5 k or better, all legally sold and made ( or still made ) by legit companies. As far as the 12 ga wire, yes you can, and oh yeah, plenty of good hams have set a tree unfire. PS, some are running tubes that have handles on them. So think before you spout off. Seems like you have nothing better to do than track previous postings. Hope you have a T1 line.
N3EVL - IMHO - yes the issue is not "CODE" testing, but the fact that many ( not all ) are just to lazy, take no pride in reaching goals, and want regulations changed to make it "easy" for them. Fine I can agree that there is no more need to test for CW, as there is for PSK 31, Slow Scan, RTTY etc. But can you, and everyone else please admit to the fact that "code" testing has been a filter. A filter to "try" and make sure that the resource is not abused. No one like this comparison, but that's what happened to the CB Band.
You say no. Well I can still remember when my friends father, and other fishing buddies use CB's in their beach buggies. They had them in the vehicles, at home in the basements, to keep in touch. Guess what. They all used their 11meter call signs, they all ran just 5 watts. They respected the rules, they respected the resource. This was circa 1958 - 196?. Fast forward. The FCC just said, fine, no test, no call signs needed, go to it. Well what happened.
I am sure that everyone can think of some situation where the relaxing of regulations, restrictions, or licenses had a negative affect.
And NO, the above does not imply that hams that know "code", are better. Nor does it mean that they do not abuse the resource, regulations, or intent of the hobby. There are many general class and higher hams that should be thrown off the air.
Back to the original posting:
Yes it might be very possible to have to many people on the air at one time, at some periods of time and propagation. No not from early morning to 4 PM, but after work, and on weekends it's very possible. How about contest conditions every weekend and each evening. Can you say for a fact that it will not happen ???
CW out dated: I doubt it. Will one of you wise and all knowing technical types please prove to me that there is another mode ( available to hams ) that will complete a two way path, when bad static, solar flares, or worse ( may, can, might ) occur, better than CW.
With the advent of Home Land Security, and some very real threats, ALL modes of communication most be considered. A simple rig with a few watts, and a key, will get the job done. Out dated, not not by a long shot.
Remember ham radio is a service.
Which brings me right back to the issue of the importance of hams KNOWING something. If you don't know something, then how can you provide the service ???
Post Script: Having more hams on the air will not keep the barking dogs at bay. Do really think that when the Govn't wants to use the bands for other services, that they just won't end it ( ham radio ). You don't get it. Band spectrum is money. BIG money. Unless hams can pay ( big time ) the day will come when the bands will be sold to the highest bidder.
How can you stop that from happening ???
Well maybe by showing the country, the FCC, and big business, that you are worth having around. How do you do that. KNOW something. It does not have to be "code", but at lease have some sort of technical knowledge.
Translated. OK no code testing, but lets have a real exam. Lets not just hand out free lunch passes.
By the way folks, nothing in this issue is 100 %, and you all know it, but it's very possible that much of what has been postulated will occur, and it may not all be good. Moving with caution is always better than a knee jerk reaction.
Maybe with the date of 9/11 coming up, we need to take time to think of how small the issue of code / no code really is and put our thoughts else where.
- - … …--, …-.-
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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Think I will start putting my ham radios on Ebay before they become worthless. The Centerfed Zepp I shall keep and hang it on my wall.
Was cold this morning, the temperature was 72F, time to cut firewood.
---------------
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KZ9G on September 9, 2003
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Ed Hare is right.
This analysis is severely shortsighted. Besides not taking into account ever changing propagation paths (skip zones) and antenna directivity and take off angles, it doesn't consider system gain and/or effective radiated power (ERP) figures as it pertains to received signal strengths (above or below the noise). As Ed mentions, many ops just don't transmit that much, and spend a serious majority of the time just listening. I'd like to think that I could apply Erlang calculations to model simplistic HF spectrum traffic capacities. But, so many more variables are involved that this seems impossible. Remember the ever changing propagation conditions, operating characteristics and station transmitting conditions that would have to be considered?
Here's a simplistic example:
If contacts do take place on an "open" band, reuse of the same propagation "circuit" between two relatively close points isn't considered. Let's say the average HF SSB contact averages 5 minutes in length between 2 global points, say A and Z. After the QSO is complete the same propagation circuit and/or frequency could be used by hams in the same general A and Z areas of the world. Or, different areas of the world (say B and Y) that were hearing either of the initial QSO's parties (A or Z), could reuse the frequency for communications to completely different parts of the world (B to X and Y to C). Other stations, say D and W, could have reused the same frequency to completely other parts of the world after A and Z concluded, too. As you can see, it get very complex, and this complexity lends itself well to frequency reuse.
Being in the telecom business, I've studied and used something called Erlang calculations to accurately determine the trunking circuit capacity I needed to support a certain grade of available phone service without having a customer receive a "fast busy." A fast busy indicates that all telephone circuits are being used. Our standard is to have enough capacity (equates to telephone circuits) so that less than 1% of the total number of attempted phone calls during peak usage times (busy hour) are not blocked with a fast busy. Erlang calcs are used in other types of traffic analysis, and not only in the telecom business. As I stated earlier, they could be used to describe communications capacity of ham bands, but because of the many changing variables involved, it would be difficult at best to determine the capacity of spectrum over periods of time. I can say that the capacity of the ham bands far more immense than anyone would have thought for our type of communications. I could also say that those stations with multiple directive and omni-directional antennas at varied heights will have greater chances of success in completing their desired HF communications circuits.
Oh, I’m all for a limited no-code HF license.
73.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 9, 2003
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GRAYLINEDXING:
One or two out of every 100 messages does not justify your characterization as "many".
As for your characterization of people who would like to see the code test eliminated as " to lazy", I have noticed that "many" of them do know the difference between "to", "too", and "two". You might want to take a look at yourself first before calling anyone "to lazy"
If you like CW then use it. I do. It has already been shown that the original article that started this thread is technically and logically flawed. I personally believe that eliminating element 1 testing will not result in the "flood" of new operators that many of the pro-code people suggest. It may, though, increase the number of CW operators by a few percent in the long run since some of those new operators will take an interest in CW and learn it. Shoving it down people's throats isn't going to do it.
WA7NCL:
"I am tired of all the guys who want exclusive frequencies that they can sit and talk with their ancient buddies undisturbed."
"I am tired of calling CQ on bands I know are open and getting no response because there are not enough HF hams left and those few who are left are so old they have to go to bed at 9PM local time."
"But some guys like quiet bands......quiet like a tomb or a cemetary. Think about it."
Ha ha ha! Exactly! Just what I have been thinking lately. Those people may get their wish to see ham radio become a cemetery and die with them.
N8VB
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 9, 2003
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KOE tnx fer bar car in a dead thread. i do not need top shelf. instead of jp-4, i will have a jet-a and diacetylated alkaloid martini. put in a marinol olive.
shaken not stirred in a thorium centerfuge.
the dead horse will have a cuban cigar, and a little axil rose from monica L. invites for tehm society will be sent to selected posters. 98xray.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by SP6RGB on September 9, 2003
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New hams don't need CW but more education.They should know by heart all written and unwritten rules and of course observe them. Thera are many hams with CW acquaintance but as operator they are much worse then CB operators.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC8UNF on September 9, 2003
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I hope they drop the code requirement in the USA soon.
Ham radio desreves better.
It is not likely that we will be over-run by lousy operators or overcrowded for that matter.
It seems that there are some hobbyists that place ham radio up on a high esteemed pedestal where it does not belong, and they are afraid of any changes to the way it is because that is the way they are and it does not make sense nor is it good for the hobby.
I think that ham radio should be enjoyed by more people and it should be WAY easier to get into and on HF. It is not some secret hobby, we are not practicing medicine , we are not flying the space shuttle .
We are just communicating with a radio. THAT'S IT !!!
I say stop trying to keep people out of this hobby by retaining an element that is grosly unapealing to most who have considered entering this relm of RF hobbying. The code requirement has WAY outlived it's usefulness and should be eliminated ASAP.
If you choose to utilize cw to communicate with ,there is nothing wrong with that.
The CW requirement has outlived it's usefulness.
Don't worry about over-crowded hf bands.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K8NQC on September 9, 2003
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When I hear ham operators speak of their most fun operation it is usually Field Day. That is the time the bands are most crowded. I was around when wide A.M. signals filled the phone bands in a hurry but we sure enjoyed the hobby. I think that except for those who want to own a frequency with a clear passband we can enjoy those crowded bands more than quiet bands. It does mean a change in operating habits and attention to receiving skills but high use of the ham bands is a "good" problem. 73,
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W8JI on September 9, 2003
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It seems that there are some hobbyists that place ham radio up on a high esteemed pedestal where it does not belong, and they are afraid of any changes to the way it is because that is the way they are and it does not make sense nor is it good for the hobby.
I think that ham radio should be enjoyed by more people and it should be WAY easier to get into and on HF. It is not some secret hobby, we are not practicing medicine , we are not flying the space shuttle .
We are just communicating with a radio. THAT'S IT !!!
>>>>
If you think amateur radio is not a special privledge that should be regulated and filtered through testing, or that it ranks with collecting stamps, butterflies, or other hobbies, you have a poor concept of what radio is.
The power we are allowed to run is more than many BC stations, yet even fairly low power stations reach all over the world on HF. We have potential to interfere with other spectrum users (as well as other amateurs)at great distances, we can select any frequency we want within authorized ranges, and all of this demands skill and understanding of what that little box on the desk does and how it functions.
MOST or virtually all of the new radio technology came from and still comes from amateurs. Electronics technical fields are still full of amateurs who are often key players in their fields, and amateur radio is about the only emergency communications pool that works reliably in a disaster.
Let's not take this technical hobby down to the level of things like randomly dialing numbers on a telephone or CB radio, just for the sake of not wanting to learn how to use a radio and what it does!
If this was a valueless communicators hobby, we'd have far fewer frequencies and radios with "channels".
73 Tom
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 9, 2003
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W8JI:
I agree with you that Ham radio is a technical hobby. What is technical about keeping the CW requirement though? No technical ability is needed to learn CW.
It would make more sense to test for the understanding of vacuum tube circuity than test for an "outdated"* mode like CW.
N8VB
* I do use CW and enjoy it. I also understand vacuum tube circuitry. Both are still "outdated".
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W1RFI on September 9, 2003
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> If contacts do take place on an "open" band, reuse
> of the same propagation "circuit" between two
> relatively close points isn't considered.
Such spectrum re-use is a normal part of most radio technology today. But one can call "Is the frequency in use" and be told that it is because a net is going to start on that frequency in an hour. One can call "QRL?" on CW and have a station 1000 Hz away tell you that it is, even though the necessary bandwidth for CW is about 200 Hz. And this says nothing of some of the technical ways of managing spectrum.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by LOWBANDER on September 9, 2003
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Quit worrying about HF becoming filled with CBPlussers. I’m telling you that the Trailer Trash CBPlussers will not be allowed to install any type of towers in the Trailer Parks! They will stick with their rusted out pick-up trucks, and 2 meter mobile rigs! 10-4?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 9, 2003
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Well...........it sounds like it's about time to end this thread.
When posts start to equate VHF use with "Trailer Parks", you know that the Trolls have joined the discussion.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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Very strange how many know very little about communications on this thread. With modern technique, it is possible to fit many into the single slot. I myself can single out one signal with three on the same frequency. Self training through the years. I am talking of Continental Code transmissions which today is called CW.
I have worked with filters with a 2 cycle pass band, there is no reason why we cannot expand our receiver technology and add more hams to the ham band frequencies.
As far as I am concerned, All good things come to an end.
---------------
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB8NUT on September 9, 2003
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This is not very scientific. We all know there are more than 488 Sideband QSOs on the HF bands at any one time and we are still not using most of our allocations. 10, 12 and 15 meters are dead. We can fit a lot of people on HF, and far more than what is indicated here by the original poster. There is plenty of room. Trying to justify code/no-code by how many people we can accomodate on the bands is silly. The code requirement is silly. It is an old and outdated mode but a mode still fun to use, but like any mode, we should force it down anyone's throat.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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WB8NUT
Code or no code has nothing to do with band use. The higher bands are not used as band conditions being what they are.
Code test now down to 5 wpm is not bringing in the full use of the ham bands. It will when a DX signal is heard and the band will liven up a bit. Talking of both CW and of SSB. We don't have rag chewers, but DX'ers and contesters looking for new QSL cards. Ham radio has turned out to be a certificate hunters group.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NZ5L on September 9, 2003
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As long as the CW subbands remain in force there will always be room for those operators who have put in the effort to master this mode. It won't matter much how many "CBers with tickets" are out there. It's the ultimate de-regulated self-policing scheme, and a good example of the old maxim "virtue is its own reward". It is also (by far) the easiest way to work the rare DX with a simple antenna or low power station because it's where the true hobbyists of every nation will congregate.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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NZ5L
Yes, I say let them in, the CB'ers and they will filter themselves out and the good ones will remain and enjoy the benefits of ham radio. Usually the bad apples are separated and discarded.
You mess with the best, you die like the rest.
Semper Fi
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RFSOAKED on September 9, 2003
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What a total bunch of crap! Ridiculous reasoning to the inth degree!!
I can't beleive the bunk this guy is spouting off in this article. It would take a lot more than a little math like he did to show what might happen, take in account propogation, cost of equipment, ability to erect antennas on property, hours available to operate (some techs do hold jobs and have families you idiot!), and a number of other factors.
Hmm, only 500 hams on HF, i guess that just leaves the old time Extra's, at least thats what it seems hes getting to. I happen to be a 13wpm General, and spend a fair amount of time listening to dead hf bands and static, yes my antenna is working and hooked up so dont even ask, and i wonder where he gets the evidence of the bands being crowded??
I hear all the arguments about 20 meters being over populated, yeah right, that only happens during contests, and when the contest is done dead silence on most of the band. You don't hear a couple dozen stations calling CQ anymore, i just tuned across 20, i heard two nice QSO's in progress, some PSK, and a smidge of SSTV, but other than that its hardly crowded. The majority of activity on 80 is 3860, and that is usually due to nets on that frequency, but im sure you think its crowded with two or more QSO's.
It is pure bunk, your just rewording all the other arguments and bashing the no-code licensees as usual. If you think your right why not petition the FCC? Why not comment to the 7 active petitions? Stop posting this crap on eHam!
What if all the no-code techs passed the 5 wpm exam? What then???? Oh, but it would never happen huh? I'm just pointing out the fault in your logic, if all the no-code's passed the 5 wpm test and became Generals then you would probably argue about General class licensees having access to HF, where does it end i ask?
The real threat to HF is if all you HF licensed hams stop typing on eHam and get back on the bands, then perhaps it will be crowded on there! HI HI (note this paragraph was a stab at humor, if you dont get it then dont flame about it)
Well, back to talking to the no-code techs on the local repeater, and maybe some 2m or 6m SSB, when in Rome!
73
David
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 9, 2003
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".. What we need are more electronics enthusiasts, 'geeks' if you will, who are fascinated by radio, who want to learn more, who are willing to devote a modicum of time to study for and pass a test.."
What we need is for General class licensees to have a better understanding of ham radio before being let loose to embarass themselves and the rest of the elite in this forum, and for those "No-Theory" Generals like the OP to to be sent back for re-examination, since they are obviously "utilitarian" operators.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W5UX on September 9, 2003
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Soon the higher bands will not be open leaving most of us on twenty meters.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 9, 2003
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OK……………let’s put aside all the elitist attitudes, big egos, and mudslinging for just a moment. There is an important point that needs to be considered:
When Multi-National Commercial Interests start to bring items like BPL to the table, you guys have to realize that the days of HF as you know it are potentially numbered. If you want to hang on to what you think of as “Yours”, you must be able to show both Congress and the FCC that the HF Amateur Bands are HEAVILY used by MANY people. (It wouldn’t hurt to remind them that we’re talking “voting age” people, either!)
If you fail to deal with this issue forcefully, showing that many people will be disenfranchised by an unfavorable decision, you will find yourselves with only a small portion of your precious HF Bands left! (Who knows,….. you might even be forced to associate with all of us “Untouchables” on the VHF/UHF bands!)
Now is not the time to be excluding people! If you are hoping to win a fight with the bureaucrats, you will need numbers!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KG4WKL on September 9, 2003
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Not all lids are as bad as most of you old farts make us out to be. I have never met a more prejudiced bunch of people in my life, and i am from the south. Get over yourself and enjoy the hobby, Thats what we all should do.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4FFG on September 9, 2003
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I have an idea that will solve the (obvious and imminent) overcrowding of the hf bands:
When (or if) the code requirement does go away, and all of us folks who haven't passed a code test are suddenly thrust upon the hf bands, why not create a “schedule of operating times.” This schedule will be made up so the most senior amateur radio operator (license class, how long in that class, how long licensed as an amateur, etc) will be allowed to operate during the time of day (due to atmospheric condition, etc) that particular bands are open. Other folks with less seniority won’t have the good times on the bands; they will have to suffer with less than perfect conditions on bands that they don’t want to operate. That would be fair, right? That would create more of a class distinction, and keep the unwashed off of hf.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4FFG on September 9, 2003
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By the way, wtf is a "lid" anyway? Am I one?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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W4FFG
I have a much better idea and that is to get off of eHAM and QRZ.COM and turn our transmitters on and have a nice friendly chat.
My rig is along side of my computer and am scanning the bands looking and working a QSO at the same time. Very simple when you do not have to sit in front of your radio at all times.
Too many wiseguys and they insult the old timers, so that means they are young snots, can't teach them because they know it all and very jealous type individuals.
--------------
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W4FFG on September 9, 2003
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W6TH:
I agree with you. More time on the radio, less time on the computer. I admit that is advice that I need to heed.
But, I add this: there are also old timers who insult us "young (I guess I'm relatively young - I'm 42) snots" first. That knife cuts both ways...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 9, 2003
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What is a lid you ask. The loose meaning is a ham that has bad operating habits. There is no lid handbook, so I will give you a few example's. Other hams will give you their favorites.
1)Kerchunking repeaters
2)calling CQ over an existing QSO
3)calling CQ too close to an existing QSO.
4)BEFORE CALLING CQ, not calling qrz, is the frequency in use.
5)setting your mic gain and speech proc to the max, thinking you will have the best signal.
6)not owning and using a dummy load, before tuning on air.
7)using 1500W PEP to qso a few miles away.
8)using roger beeps and echo mics.
9)when new, if you use CB lingo, someone corrects you.
then you use CB lingo to spite everybody!
10)If you had to ask if you were a lid, you are not a lid. Nobody is perfect. And you took the effort to ask!
73 DE MIKE
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2NZJ on September 9, 2003
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THE ANSWER TO THIS ARTICLE IS ( YES ) WE NEED EVERY ONE ACTIVE ON THE BANDS.get rid of element one and you know what it will still take years not months to see any reasonable amount of actvity INCREASE at all.all of the negative comments i've read are what is known as over reactive HYPE. we need to change our way of thinking we all need to get along together as a fraternity and address the real threat BPL/WI-FI AND INACTIVITY. BTW RFSOAKED'S COMMENT WAS RIGHT ON. I observe the same results here. so we can afford much more activity on HF. 73 N2NZJ TOM.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on September 9, 2003
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W4FFG
I don't consider a old timer of any person who has received their ticket after the year 1947. To me these are new timers, I consider an old timer back from day one up until the year 1946. We may say old, old timers from day one up to the day of 1946.
We old, old timers carried this ham radio with the highest honors possible and we have been let down and have been disgraced. We are being laughed at by the entire outside world from these remarks being made by these wise guys who seem to be illbred and the world is seeing it.
Please refrain me from being an old timer and consider me a old, old timer and that will relieve quite a strain for all of the old, old timers.
Let's now set a example of the difference of the old timer compared to the old, old timer.
We old, old timers made no effort to stop any of today hams from becoming future hams of today, so please find us at no fault.
73, Vito W6TH.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KY1V on September 9, 2003
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I repeatedly read comments such as...
"Are crowded amateur radio bands such a bad thing? If our bands are too empty, then commercial interests will use that as an excuse to appropriate them from us. Case in point: parts of the 1.25m band."
I am still astonished that the "no code" supporters think their presence on HF will "save the bands" from marauding corporate bandits out to take over the HF spectrum.
Last I noticed, the only bands the corporate world has interest in acquiring is the VHF/UHF spectrum. The people trying to save the HF bands, from takeover by the no code supporters, are those of us that passed the code!
Talk about pretzel logic!
God save the queen...errr...I mean...code!
David, KY1V
Avid supporter of HF DX, CW, SSB, Contesting, rag chewing, discovering new friends, keeping CB'ers on 27Mhz, earning my privileges, and making tons of cash to build large antenna arrays!
See you all, well at least the code types, during CQWW, de VP5X (KY1V)
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KZ9G on September 9, 2003
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RFSOAKED said:
"I hear all the arguments about 20 meters being over populated, yeah right, that only happens during contests, and when the contest is done dead silence on most of the band. You don't hear a couple dozen stations calling CQ anymore, i just tuned across 20, i heard two nice QSO's in progress, some PSK, and a smidge of SSTV, but other than that its hardly crowded. The majority of activity on 80 is 3860, and that is usually due to nets on that frequency, but im sure you think its crowded with two or more QSO's."
I say this is a fairly accurate assessment of current intra-continental (within the continent) HF communications. The bands are NOT crowded.
W6TH said:
"Yes, I say let them in, the CB'ers and they will filter themselves out and the good ones will remain and enjoy the benefits of ham radio. Usually the bad apples are separated and discarded."
I say that this is the best comment yet from the OOT, W6TH.
WA7NCL and N8VB said:
"I am tired of all the guys who want exclusive frequencies that they can sit and talk with their ancient buddies undisturbed."
"I am tired of calling CQ on bands I know are open and getting no response because there are not enough HF hams left and those few who are left are so old they have to go to bed at 9PM local time."
"But some guys like quiet bands......quiet like a tomb or a cemetary. Think about it."
(N8VB) Ha ha ha! Exactly! Just what I have been thinking lately. Those people may get their wish to see ham radio become a cemetery and die with them.
I say this is another rather astute observation. I call CQ on 40 M CW with 200 watts and a great full size vertical with many radials under it at midnight and later and usually don't get a response at 24 WPM. I just don't understand it. Every once in ahile I'll catch someone in the Midwest, East Coast, or Canada with varying signals, but not that often. Same with 40 M phone.
Oh, 20 Meters during the day is also usually a wasteland of just 2 or 3 QSO's happening at the same time. Since the AVERAGE age of the typical ham operator is in the late 50's to early 60's, why aren't these retired folks on 20 meters filling the phone band? Oh, they're not heard on CW here in WA State either...not during daytime hours.
The overcrowding arguments just don't make sense because they just don't exist.
73.
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by NN6EE on September 9, 2003
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JOHN!!!
Well done!!!
Your article on Amateur-Band Occupancy was a helluva lot better thought out then Ms. Bonnie's (KQ6XA) article on why CODE ought to be eliminated!!!
You know what you're talking about!!!
She does'nt!!!
Bravo!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by HILLBILLYJACK on September 9, 2003
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The talk about Trailer Parks not allowing towers is not quite correct. Ya see, I spoke to Lucy Lu, our Trailer Park Queen, and she said that towers will be OK, as long as we can run a wire between them, so we can hang our babies diapers out to dry! She also said they would look good on Christmas all lite up with the lights. So ya see, living in a Trailer Park, with a CB Plus licenses ain’t so bad after all. See ya on HF, I go by Hillbilly Jack, and that’s a BIG 10-4!
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by RADIOBOB on September 9, 2003
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Boy,
I have read so many different replies, that I have almost forgotten what the original article was about.
I have been following the different writings on this code - no code issue for months, and looking at the FCC site. As mentioned, way above, there are suggestions, and FCC petitions that ask for the complete removal of all but the very basic of application forms, and very minimal testing.
I am trying to figure just what is so hard with passing a 5 wpm code test, and a rather simple written test.
Some have said that CW is not technical. Well then what is technical. Should we have a technical test ?? The test now used is not technical.
It is sad to see that the, new blood, does not see ham radio as something special. That does not make people who are proud elitist.
Some have mentioned field day as the very best fun time of the year, because of all the activity. I guess. But to me and many others, who like to have a nice QSO on the weekends, it all but ends all hope of that. Not much fun trying to listen to a conversation when stations are 1.5 - 2 kc away on both sides. I can't see how that can be much fun on a regular basis.
Some have pointed out that the bands, above 20 are not being used very much. True but for a very good reason. They are dead, aka no propagation. Even the big short-wave stations, and government stations abandon the upper bands when they are dead. No number of hams using a band can open it up.
There seems to be no end to the number of people wanting to dilute the process of becoming a ham radio operator. Where will it stop.
I really feel that the nation sees ham radio as a weird hobby, and that it serves no purpose. I feel that the government also sees it the same way. That's a shame. When the chips are down and a true disaster strikes, it is hams who step in and keep the lines open, and make sure the help is where it needs to be. How do they do it. They do it by technical knowledge and competent skills. Untold hours of fee service each year, provided by a core of skilled, and proud
individuals.
If we reduce the requirements will we still have those skills.
As far as CW as outmoded goes, that is just an opinion from those who do not know how to use it. When the band is dead, when the biggest of solar flares hits, I can always seem to hear a weak CW station some where. I can't say the same about SSB, PSK, RTTY, Packet and the likes.
Like it or not, CW is still the most basic, and most reliable form of communication, even if not fun. Isn't ham radio about being able to provide communication ?
If CW as a part of the requirements, is dropped, and more people try to crowed into the HF parts of the bands, we will have some very big radio wars. It will be interesting to watch / hear. The ham bands are sort of like a lake. There is a certain number of boats any small lake can easily accommodate. Above that critical number X, the waters begin to get rougher, and the tempers and the frustrations of the boat operators increase. At some point being on the lake is no longer fun. The ham bands are just the same.
If anyone can pass the written test, and it seems that is pretty easy to do just that, then why have any kind of test. Why not just have a FCC application. What's the difference.
Well I haven't been on CW for a few years now. Probably a good time to dust off the key and get back into the swing of it. Looks like there'll be plenty of room in the CW sub band, that's until someone decides that it needs to be abolished. The sad part of it is that CW really is lots of fun. It does not need to be a blistering speeds to be fun.
Well BPL will probably do us all in.
Time to take some photos and start posting this junk on Ebay. The stuff will be worthless in a few years.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 9, 2003
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we fight and fight, and fight and fight and fight.....
it is the itchy and scratchy show!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE4ARH on September 9, 2003
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"...the start of the dumming down of ham radio..."
Oh, the irony......
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC0ODY on September 10, 2003
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"Dumming down", indeed. Perhaps if this poster would learn how to spell, or at the very least, learn how to run a spell-checker, their post would seem more credible.
I'm a new General (as of 1/03) and I got my 100 DX entities within 5 months of getting my HF privileges. A few of those-- perhaps 6-- have been via CW during contests. Being a "5 WPM General" does not lend itself well to contesting with the 25+ WPM big dogs on the block. Nevertheless, I've found the HF bands to be remarkably free of QSO's much of the time, except during contests. I'm wondering what the originator of this thread is getting at about crowding on the HF bands. There are so many factors involved with getting on HF *at all*, that I find such a conclusion to be specious at best.
Perhaps the thread's originator is just displaying more fear and loathing of those who *might* be sharing frequency spectrum with him, et al. ... then again, who knows when, and even if, the FCC will decide to let go of the code requirement to get on HF.
I don't recall seeing anything about the HF *written* portions of the AR exams being eliminated, so what's all this talk about "Technicians" gaining automatic HF privileges, anyway?
I have been inactive since my move to a restricted location, but I now have 24/7 access to a fully-equipped HF/VHF/UHF station, courtesy of my local ARES group. Yet I still wonder if *anything* I read on these forums will convince me that getting back on the airwaves is a worthwhile endeavor. Too much "pot-kettle-black" stuff here, folks. If you want amateur radio to survive, then quit putting down other licensed operators (no matter WHICH license class they hold!) and spend less time on your damned keyboards complaining...
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5YDY on September 10, 2003
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RADIOBOB needs to be retested on Extra Class theory. In fact, I would recommend that all hams advocating more difficult theory exams should be retested for their class of licenses to make sure they are up-to-date on their technical knowledge. The technology has changed so much, I suspect many Extra class operators couldn't pass the current Extra Class Exam without the same amount of study the rest of us put into it. Go ahead and take a practice test on QRZ and see how well you actually do compared to what you THINK you know.
RADIOBOB>>>>When the band is dead, when the biggest of solar flares hits, I can always seem to hear a weak CW station some where. I can't say the same about SSB, PSK, RTTY, Packet and the likes.
p2-28 of Extra License Manual: PSK31. "The data rate for this system is 31.25 bits per second. This results in an RF signal that has a bandwidth of only 31.25 Hz! This is by far the narrowest bandwidth of any digital communications mode. PSK31 will copy signals that are extremely weak. This combination of excellent weak-signal operation and very narrow bandwidth provides communications system that RIVALS the performance of CW."
p8-20-21 "The bandwidth of a CW signal is determined by two factors: the speed of the CW being sent and the shape of the keying envelope...Suppose you are sending Morse code at a speed of 13 wpm. The bandwidth of the transmitted signal is: 52 Hz.
PSK31 is only 31.25 Hz compared to average bandwidth of 52Hz for Morse code. PSK31 will perform more accurately than Morse code (less human error).
>>>RADIOBOB: I really feel that the nation sees ham radio as a weird hobby, and that it serves no purpose. I feel that the government also sees it the same way.
You are so wrong about that opinion. Tonight at a Red Cross volunteer meeting our local amateur club introduced ham radio to the attendants. A quote by Riley Holligsworth (you better know who he is) said: (I wish I could give the exact words but here's my best memory), Amateur radio is the only fail-safe means of communication on earth.
>>>RADIOBOB: Untold hours of fee [sic FREE] service each year, provided by a core of skilled, and proud
individuals. If we reduce the requirements will we still have those skills.
Absolutely. CW is not even used as an emergency mode of communication anymore. The VHF/UHF bands are the backbone of emergency communications within a diaster area. But we could sure use a lot less PRIDE among our skilled amatuers and little more common respect for other class hams.
ARRL is urging the recruitment of more hams into ARES and offers 3 levels of on-line courses in emergency communications. They are PARTICULARLY interested in hams aged 55 and up. Wonder why? You OMs that think you know it all will be surprised to learn that you don't know squat when it comes to emergency message passing in the 21st century. Almost all message passing will be in digital mode as it is more accurate, more efficient, and more appropriate for emergency traffic.
KD5YDY
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC0ODY on September 10, 2003
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KC5NYJ sez: "What we need is for General class licensees to have a better understanding of ham radio before being let loose to embarass themselves and the rest of the elite in this forum, and for those "No-Theory" Generals like the OP to to be sent back for re-examination, since they are obviously "utilitarian" operators."
Well, as a new General (and one who has taken care to observe correct operating procedures) you won't get any argument from me. After all, I got into amateur radio knowing ZIP about electronics, radio propagation, RF and everything else that we are supposed to know upon getting our licenses. Knowing that some of us newbies are NOT EEs or RF experts, and yet we're still being allowed into the hobby, should cause some of you to take a long pause at our testing procedures. Just think-- many of us AR newbies are being allowed licenses to operate (on HF, even!) even though everything we learned about amateur radio was through the license study manuals!
To those of you who take pause at that statement, I ask you, in all honesty: whose fault is it that one such as me was allowed to get a license and enter this hobby knowing far less than most of you probably knew BEFORE you even thought about obtaining an amateur radio license? Being bright and eager apparently does not count for much!!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD7KGX on September 10, 2003
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I have to wonder how many of the people who are upset by my original article have actually READ it, and then read the rest of the messages before they post? Everyone who claims that I am anti-Technician class, or "an old fart" (ha!), or that I have some feelings of insecurity must not have read the article.
No one, including me, is claiming that the bands are crowded today. The article was merely pointing out that the Law of Unintended Consequences is applicable to ham radio. Re criticism of the 'back-of-the-envelope' calculations... 'back-of-the-envelope' calculations are by nature inexact and represent an educated guess. They aren't exact BUT based upon the premises made I believe they are close enough. And the question still stands: can we as a community afford to have frequencies that allow for regional, national, and world-wide interference open to many who are not willing to put forth the effort to train themselves to use the resource correctly?
I wasn't a ham 25 years ago... I had never seen a ham at that time and my opinion of ham radio was that it was an esoteric hobby followed by eccentric technical cranks with electronic engineering degrees. However, the observation of those who were licensed at the time is very interesting, as is the assertions by others that many hams have bought their HF privileges instead of earning them.
I find it interesting that, although the number of HF-privileged US hams is at an all-time high, utilization of HF is at historic lows. Where did all of those hams go, and why don't more of us get on the air? (I do a lot more operating in the winter.)
Take the max number of operators that I allowed, and double it to get 4,000 hams, or about 0.75% of the current US ham population (2% of the current General-and-above population). Whether 2,000 or 4,000... that would be a LOT of traffic resulting in VERY crowded band conditions in the US. To those who claim I don't know about propagation, rest assured that I do... my assumptions balanced the extra 'space' provided by propagation with the crowding that would occur as a majority of the active hams concentrated on just the open bands.
Upon reflection I can see three alternate visions... one where it's easy to get into a QSO because there's a lot of people who want to work you... another where it's unpleasant to be on the air because it is so crowded that there is a lot of accidental and intentional interference... and a third, where band usage wouldn't change all that much because most of the Utilitarian no-code HF users would try it once or twice and then go back to VHF where they could actually derive some utility from ham radio, happy on the repeater because they HAD the long-awaited HF privileges even if they didn't plan to use HF all that much. To those who claim that no-coders will "save" ham radio, what happens if the third alternative is correct?
On a related subject that has come up in this thread, why, on weekends and evenings, aren't at least 1% of the HF-privileged ham population on the airwaves? That would be an interesting subject for another article.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5YDY on September 10, 2003
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Yeah, I read all the hogwash you posted about there not being enough room for no-coders. Where did we get the idea that you're anti-Tech? Just read a few of your "eloquent" statements:
>>>>"The vast majority of Techs who just want to talk to someone in a foreign country on their radio don't care whether they're using their 2m mobile or a new HF rig. These users, what I call 'utilitarians', are more interested in talking than the technology behind the talking."
What research have you done to support this sweeping generalization? The VAST MAJORITY?
>>>>"While most of these Utilitarian licensees operate within the rules and regulations, they also are not willing to upgrade their licenses to gain additional privileges."
NOT WILLING? Hundreds of techs just let their license expire. They don't even want to use the privileges they already have. Our local repeaters on 2m and 440 band remain mostly silent and are used only for ARES and radio club nets. It has nothing to do with willingness. Some are more interested in the working the birds, EME, or weak-signal work. Many "graduated" to cell phones.
>>>>"I worry about the future of ham radio populated with no-code HF licensees, many of whom will not know enough or care enough to operate without interfering with others."
Another broad generalization with no basis. Every tech knows the rules because they passed a test showing they know the rules. All the techs I know are perfect citizens on the VHF/UHF bands. They're polite, friendly, and care very much that they operate in a professional manner. Where do you get "MANY" from? Most of them haven't been on any airwaves for years! They left the hobby!
>>>"I think it's a valid assumption to conclude that more (not all, MORE) non-Morse-capable ops are less willing to learn proper operating etiquette or the necessary technological knowledge, as evidenced by their unwillingness to learn a rudimentary knowledge of Morse."
A valid assumption? Based on your personal prejudice more likely. Knowledge of Morse helps a person learn proper operating ettiquette or necessary technological knowledge? What scientific theory supports such a ridiculous conconclusion?
May I assume because you were unwilling to go to graduate school and get a Ph.D. like I did that you don't know proper etiquette on the internet? May I assume because you don't have a masters degree in computer science like I do that you lack the technological knowledge to operate your computer properly? May I assume because you are unwilling to learn COBOL programming language that you're just a utilitarian computer user? You just buy one to use. You're not interested in technology behind the digital computer. You just want to USE the computer to post on internet forums, balance your checkbook, and maybe print out some pictures. If you can't see the parallel here, then you're suffering from overexposure to RF and it has short-circuited some of your neural networks.
KD5YDY
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 10, 2003
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KD7KGX wrote:
"Re criticism of the 'back-of-the-envelope' calculations... 'back-of-the-envelope' calculations are by nature inexact and represent an educated guess. They aren't exact BUT based upon the premises made I believe they are close enough."
You just don't get it, do you? Not even close at all. People have pointed out the fallacy of your argument here is this thread. And when you say "educated" guess I really have to laugh. Nonsense...
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WR8D on September 10, 2003
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REF W8JI: Exactly on the nail head sir...but they just wont listen. I had an extra class cber tell me that his 2 thousand feet of tv hardline run up to the top of a hill over in ky was a better antenna than my full wave loop at 40 feet fed with homemade wire feeders. His "moonraker" was a better antenna than my 2 element 5 band quad at 65 feet. We've tried to elmer these people. They just dont care. All they want to do on hf is splatter..God help us when they get hold of an eq. They even mess with their filters so they can be 6khz wide on ssb. We dont need anymore of these chickenband hams. Lets pray the fcc can see this.
73
John WR8D
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 10, 2003
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KD5YDY you are right n the money!
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 10, 2003
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WR8D: You need to get over yourself. I would be willing to bet you have said and done some stupid things on the air too. Does that bring you down to the same level as your cber friend?
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 10, 2003
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KD5YDY said "May I assume because you were unwilling to go to graduate school and get a Ph.D. like I did that you don't know proper etiquette on the internet? May I assume because you don't have a masters degree in computer science like I do that you lack the technological knowledge to operate your computer properly?"
Sorry, you can have all the college degrees in the world, but it doesn't get you on the HF bands....you still HAVE to pass the code test to get there...don't you remember the classes you took as an undergraduate ??? Some of them probably seemed unnecessary....but you had to pass them to get your degree....you are obviously very capable of learning the code...why not just do it ??? It's alot easier than complaining about it here....
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 10, 2003
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RADIO123US wrote;
>>>>"Sorry, you can have all the college degrees in the world, but it doesn't get you on the HF bands....you still HAVE to pass the code test to get there...don't you remember the classes you took as an undergraduate ??? Some of them probably seemed unnecessary....but you had to pass them to get your degree....you are obviously very capable of learning the code...why not just do it ??? It's alot easier than complaining about it here...."<<<<
I think many who are arguing this point of view are completely misunderstanding the objection. Obviously, we all have the ability to learn Morse Code. Heck, I learned it 45 years ago as a boy scout, and with a little review, I'm sure it would come back to me. I'm just not interested in that mode of operation, so I haven't invested my time (which is in short supply) in pursuing something I won't use.
What many of us "No Code Low-Lifes" object to is the belief held by some that they have some kind of fantastic insight into our character and mental abilities, all based on whether or not we have a 5 WPM certificate.
My primary interest is Mobile Communications, so it's very unlikely that I'll ever be a heavy HF user. I'm participating in this thread mainly because I'm concerned about the future of the hobby, if issues like BPL are decided against us. We need to be a unified group, not a "Balkanized" collection of little warring factions.
No one on this forum is stupid! Everyone here is obviously computer literate, and in possession of some sort of Ham License. I am confident that even the newest Tech understands CW’s positive points, and the reasons for maintaining it as a mode. The discussion is not about keeping CW. It’s about whether or not people should be compelled to “go through the motions” even if they don’t intend to use CW.
To those of you who believe that the answer to this question is “YES”, let me ask you this: Would you happily “go through the motions” if another faction demanded that you pass an additional Digital Data test in order to maintain your license, or would you ask WHY?
Oh yes.........one more thing; Please stop with the "You have to do it because that's the rule!" argument. (It sounds like somebody’s mother!) The whole discussion here is about why that rule exists!....... Dogma has no place here. If there isn't a logical argument for your position, drop it.
Consider this: …..Right around the time of the Bicentennial, New Hampshire was conducting a review of it’s State Laws, with the intent of weeding out any that were either obsolete or in need of revision. They discovered one law, still on the books, that dated from the early 1700s. It clearly specified that the penalty for weather forecasting was Burning At The Stake!
Rules (and laws) are always subject to review!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2JJH on September 10, 2003
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the small requirment of 5 wpm makes it harder for lawless freebanders to just use HF anytime they want to. They still do. mostly 10 and 12 meters, because companies like copper sell such radio's
IMHO, only someone that is willing to learn an obscure skill like cw demonstrates the drive. Also many while learning the code, would join a ham club.
At the club would be a station. The perspective novice/tech would see proper operating proceedure from others.
IMHO, this has been the only thing that has prevented copper electronics to make el cheapo
3-30 mhz radio's.
Until the FCC DECIDES, NOT US...CW IS A REQUIRMENT FOR HF PHONE. It is not the mandate of OLD FART HAMS.
It is pure and simply the law, right now!
All the complaining on an epub will not change the law, period.
When I 15, I wanted 20 meter SSB. I did not want to learn the code either. However it was the law.
To my pleasent suprise, I liked my CW only novice days.
My first VFO rig was given to me for free. Had to fix it. With a simple antenna, and 60 watts out, I worked over 30 states, Canada, and japan in a few months.
During that time, I LEARNED THE DO'S AND DON'TS
LIKE IT OR NOT CW HAS WORKED AS A FILTER. Perhaps there is a better code free filter, I do not see one.
FINAL POST ON THIS.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5YDY on September 10, 2003
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RADIO123US: Point out to me a single sentence I wrote where I was complaining about the code requirement. That was not the topic of my posting at all. It was the broad sweeping statements that denigrate a certain class of license without any factual evidence to support their theories about the kind of people that are Technicians in this hobby. I have already passed elements 3 & 4 and am working on the code as I have time. It's that prevailing attitude that anyone that is "just a tech" is a lazy lowlife, lawless and stupid, way below your self-elevated status. Most of us are NOT like that and I'm sick of you snobs posting that junk. Anyone that judges another's character, morality, intelligence or worthiness based solely on class of license shouldn't be allowed to stay in this hobby. It's a HOBBY, nothing more and nothing less. I'm sorry to post such a scathing rebuke but you "earned" it.
KD5YDY
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 10, 2003
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KD5YDY, I was responding to your scathing rebuke of John/KD7KGX...you seem to indicate that since you have a PH.D, that you are somehow better than he is.....maybe that's NOT what you meant, but it sounds that way.....
The code requirement is about attitude, not whether or not it makes you a better ham....I honestly hope you pass the code test soon....
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD5YDY on September 10, 2003
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I never think I'm better than somebody because I have earned high level degrees. I was using an comparative parable. Go back and read. My "assumes" are worded as questions (not as facts) to emphasize the ridiculous logic being used. Tongue-in-cheek but a very good example of the flawed thinking about "utilitarian" users of ham radio equipment.
KD5YDY
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AA8SH on September 10, 2003
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John's concerns about future band crowding are not supported by precedent. What precedent does tell us is that after each relaxation of testing requirements there is a brief flurry of activity on the affected bands as newcomers try them out. Those who find they like the new priveleges upgrade their' stations to match their new priveleges and generally remain active. Those who do not will soon drop out. This happened in the case of Novice Enhancement, No-code Tech, and the relaxation of CW in general.
I submit that licensing could be done away with entirely with little increase of QRM, as long as Amateurs have a means in place to police malicious QRMers. Crowding alone will not create chaos, as John thinks.
This is why. If a newcomer does not upgrade his station, he will be unable to cause meaningful interference to those that have. 100W and a G5RV is not a threat to the seasoned 160 or 75m operator. As my friend Jeff says, you could give out licenses on the backs of Whoppers and it wouldn't change the sound of 160 at all. He's right. Even on the higher bands, two newcomers at 100W on wires will be unable to last around anyone with an adequate station.
In other words, it is far easier to QRM on a repeater or on the CB than it is on 160 or 75. This holds true to a lesser extent on the higher HF bands as well.
This being the case, it becomes clear that it is not a question of how many are licensed, but how many have towers, beams, high wires in the clear and amplifiers. The answer is now and will remain "not many". Clark Ackison AA8SH
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Can We Afford the icom 7800
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by WA2JJH on September 10, 2003
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$8000 smackeroo's for a hf radio. are icom execs on crack!
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Can you afford a ROLEX presidential or an IWC re-i
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by WA2JJH on September 10, 2003
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Got your attention. Look at all the bickering and ill.
Lets have some out of context fun! ""Can we afford everyone"". Except for elected officials, I did not think you could buy somebody!
This begs the question, what is someone worth?
Some dude with a beard in the 1800's said we were all created equal. I cannot remember his name! They did name a tunnel after him that connects New York and New Jersey.
Which famous U.S. president is the GEORGE WASHINGTON bridge named after?
What is the shape of the oval office?
What is the color of the whitehouse?
The art of affording. It almost begs the question, maybe people should pay to get on HF. Do we have a sliding scale, like in affordable housing?!
Do we charge by the kilowatt hour. Steve would say, I have never seen a kilowatt hour. Charge by the kilohurts, that is painfull!
The next word is CAN. Lets CAN that for now!
HF. The public only knows that there is vhf and uhf TV.
EVERYONE ON HF, does that include the hotdog man, the door man, the salesman at radio shack. 6 BILLION people on HF. HF = high fidelity. OK everybody has a stereo. CASE CLOSED!
THE FIGHT BREAK IS OVER......CONTINUE
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2MR on September 10, 2003
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Not to worry...BPL will be a self limiting equalizer for HF over crowding, "only the strong will survive"
Mark N2MR
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NN6EE on September 10, 2003
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Gentlemen!!!
This is a recently posting that I made on another thread on eHam but it's just as revlant out here!!!
ENJOY!!!
******************************************************
RE: Code v. No-Code: A Businessman's View Reply
by NN6EE on September 10, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Kent,
You've got a point about the EXAM!!!
I'd have NO problem with dropping the CODE requirement as long as the Technical elements of the TEST would not be published in a "Question/Answer" format and that the license manuals published for a particular class of license would give THEORY background only and point you in the proper direction as far as the resulting answer was concerned!!!
We all KNOW the tests are too damn easy now even with the whimppy CODE test @ 5wpm!!!
MAKE THE THEORY TEST an "ESSAY-FORMAT" test and tougher than it is now & I'm sure alotta guys including myself would withdraw our collective disgust in removing the CODE REQUIREMENT!!! NO MORE MULTIPLE-CHOICE B.S questions!!!
Whadda ya think Guys???
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by 2INTEREST on September 10, 2003
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First, this is post is not at all about code. Second, I draw my observations about those dx contesters who stepped up to the ham HF bands from illegal operations on the 11 meter CB band.
Now, I submit to you that the HF bands are crowded--during contests. There are a load of ill mannered louts on them now--during contests. Operators do use much more power than needed to maintain a communication--during contests. One operator will cheerfully and unashamedly overpower and drown out another--during contests. And so on.....
I am not saying contesting is a bad thing, but contesting is what brings out the worst mannered operators at a time when the bands are crowded. And as usual, the few who do the damage manage to have everyone branded with their label, since those who try to operate legally and ethically soon revert to the tactics used by the bad operators after being drowned out and overridden a few times.
Happily, contests are not around every day. And, maybe the observers should be required to listen during contests and issue their notices for any violations observed instead of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.
Contests, however well meaning they are, are the real nightmares that most of the HF doomsayers are speaking of here. Why they don't just say so is obvious. They use this flawed argument to justify keeping testing just as it is instead of trying to justify it by arguments that are more difficult to prove.
However much it pains me to say it, the no code side is winning by using better, more justifiable arguments to prove their case. And with that, this once magnificent hobby is sliding furthur into the shadows--and more toward falling into the same cesspool that swallowed the 11 meter citizens band.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by 2INTEREST on September 10, 2003
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Be sure to make your preference known on the survey presently on this site concerning the code test issue. Scroll down to the bottom of the home page.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RFSOAKED on September 10, 2003
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I have been watching that survey, the No's that want to keep CW hit it hard at first, but the Yes's have been steadily climbing all day, i wouldnt be surprised if it catches up and passes the No's soon!
73
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Sweeping generalizations...
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by KD7KGX on September 10, 2003
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KD5YDY sez:
RADIO123US: Point out to me a single sentence I wrote where I was complaining about the code requirement. That was not the topic of my posting at all. It was the broad sweeping statements that denigrate a certain class of license without any factual evidence to support their theories about the kind of people that are Technicians in this hobby.
I REPLY:
Point out to me where I denigrate a certain LICENSE class. Point out to me where I say that it's BAD that Utilitarians get ham licenses. On the contrary, I state that most Utilitarians are good operators. I do imply, however, that ham radio needs radio enthusiasts, not just good operators, to survive.
I will point out to you the evident fact that a large number of Techs are letting their licenses lapse rather than either renewing as Techs or upgrading. This indicates to me that they have found a better/cheaper method of solving their utilitarian problem -- communicating -- than ham radio. Doesn't mean they're bad, evil, or stupid... but does seem to indicate that they aren't the people that will carry ham radio forward into the future. (They most likely ARE the people responsible for carrying Nextel and Verizon forward!)
KD5YDY CONTINUES:
I have already passed elements 3 & 4 and am working on the code as I have time. It's that prevailing attitude that anyone that is "just a tech" is a lazy lowlife, lawless and stupid, way below your self-elevated status. Most of us are NOT like that and I'm sick of you snobs posting that junk. Anyone that judges another's character, morality, intelligence or worthiness based solely on class of license shouldn't be allowed to stay in this hobby. It's a HOBBY, nothing more and nothing less. I'm sorry to post such a scathing rebuke but you "earned" it.
AS DO I:
Tell me where in ANY of my posts I have made such sweeping generalizations. The answer: I haven't.
KD5YDY, you do not know my level of education, and it is presumptions of you to assume that you do. I will tell you this... I have passed over a lot of job candidates with Masters Degrees in Computer Science who couldn't code worth didly, and hired several people who hadn't completed their undergraduate degrees who were excellent coders and understood the principles of software engineering. I will also tell you that in my undergrad days many years ago, my professors told me that unless I specialized in COBOL and quit playing around with lab technology like Unix and C I'd never get a job. Of course, I'm retired now and they are still working.
Nevertheless... I understand why employers look for a college degree and use it as a go/no-go indicator. It doesn't indicate knowledge, but it does show a level of maturity and perseverence... the ability to buckle down and get a job accomplished. I view the code test similarly.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K2JX on September 10, 2003
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Can we afford to "not have" everyone on HF ?
Remember the 'ol phrase, "use it or lose it" ?
Cw or Phone get on the bands!
My 2 cents,
73, de K2JX, (still using tubes and cw.)
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE6I on September 10, 2003
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Yeah, doesn't seem to be a huge problem right now. Even with a lot more hams on the band, well, we could just have 'really big roundtable' conversations. Would not be the end of the world.
People need to chill out and not get so territorial.
Also the comments about the low bands are interesting. Me, I have a wire at 35 feet and 600 watts and people can hear me on 80, but I'm not really tearing up the band. Sometimes I'll transmit and the big guns all come back -- "did you hear that?" Still 600 watts on 80M ssb is hugely better than when I had 100 watts on 80M, and I didn't really make many contacts on that band those days.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 11, 2003
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A great article. Really makes one consider the wisdom of dropping CW testing and replacing it with psychological testing.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 11, 2003
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Sigh………………Yet another post submitted under an assumed name, with a totally empty personal profile.
I have an idea………..In consideration of the day, why don’t we put aside the petty in-fighting for just a little while, and devote some silent thought to what happened two years ago;….. remembering those who were killed, and those who sacrificed their lives willingly.
In the next few years, it is altogether too likely that some of us will be on the air, assisting in the aftermath of a similar disaster.
Let’s keep things in prospective.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 11, 2003
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Sigh………………Yet another post submitted under an assumed name, with a totally empty personal profile.
I have an idea………..In consideration of the day, why don’t we put aside the petty in-fighting for just a little while, and devote some silent thought to what happened two years ago;….. remembering those who were killed, and those who sacrificed their lives willingly.
In the next few years, it is altogether too likely that some of us will be on the air, assisting in the aftermath of a similar disaster.
Let’s keep things in prospective.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 11, 2003
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NN6EE said:
"Your article on Amateur-Band Occupancy was a helluva lot better thought out then Ms. Bonnie's (KQ6XA) article on why CODE ought to be eliminated!!!
You know what you're talking about!!! "
That is really scary coming from an Advanced class ham. I think we've already gone over the reasons why the OP logic is flawed and full of unfounded generalizations and NN6EE just affirmed what we've suspected all along... CW and a few extra questions do not a radio expert make. "lot better thought out"?? I think not...
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 11, 2003
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KC5NYJ:
Hear, Hear! I agree! Very scary...
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB1GMX on September 11, 2003
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1)Weak argueement. Far too many first order assumtions made on who and how many. This results in a plethora of presumed results that fail on close examination.
2)The presentation of some users is less than complmentary if not completely error prone. There is a unavoidable bias presented that needs checking.
3)It assumes that everyone with a license wants to be on HF! There again is a faulty assumption. How many of the general and higher never play on HF or use it only rarely?
4) there are areas where CB in the forum of REACT is still active and works with HAMs for public service.
The presumed CB paintbrush needs a washin too.
Those four tests make it troll and plonk. However lets go further as there may be hiddin jems.
Now.. 6m alone is 4mhz wide minus that tiny 100khz sliver. The remaining 3.9mhz is more bandwidth than nearly all of HF alone. Then we have 2m, 222, 70cm and up most all nearly empty. Lets look at 70cm, up there I can have a repeater, run digital, use CW, have a fastscan TV station and a whole list of things that would never even fit in the 10m band never mind 75 phone along with not being permissable. those things can make having a Tech license more valuable for those that want to experiment. Why do techs not renew then,
BOREDOM no one mentored them or a lack of interest allowed them to miss many of the more exciting activities like DF(fox hunting), SSB, Satelites, RC models for some.
No, IMHO going HF and after passing all the tests is almost a step backward as most of really neat techical projects I like are not allowed there. Not to say the long distance capability of HF is bad but, is that all there is? I suspect not, if it were then QRP, PSK31 and a whole lot of other HF (and MF) activity would not happen. I put that in to poke at the presumtion of eletism that getting HF privelidges are
everything, they are not. What band you do your favored activity on really isn't a factor for the most part.
What was true in all is active hams, who like to use and play with radio is the essence of all amateur radio. For some it's not about the radios, public service is their favored activity. Other find the box neat and then ask but what can we do with it and proceed to find out, that's another avenue. In the end use it, enjoy it and expriment with modes that forfill your needs. Thats what the hobby is about.
Allison
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K0RGR on September 11, 2003
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I just happened to be home this afternoon , so I decided to take a quick survey of the HF bands to look for activity.
First, I was surprised at the activity on 40 meters at 2 o'clock in the afternoon on a weekday - the top 75 Khz. of 40 meter SSB was very crowded. I heard only 1 CW QSO in progress, however.
There was no activity on 30 meters. I rarely hear any on this band.This should be THE PSK band. It's almost always open and has better propagation than 20 or 40 at many times of the day and night. The antennas are small, too. Who cares about the lower power limit on PSK31?
15 meters was open, but the only activity on the band was a number of PSK31 signals on 21070. This great band has really fallen into disuse. I can't understand why - when 10 is dead, this is the place to go.
I found 4 SSB QSOs and no CW on 17 meters. There were approx. two PSK QSOs and one digital mode I could not identify.
10 and 12 meters appears dead.
20 meters was the workhorse band, as might be assumed. I found 8 CW QSOs in progress, and at least 8 QSOs on PSK31 on 14070. I found two MFSK QSOs and a couple of packet stations. Also found AMTOR or PACTOR on 14.106 . Then, starting at 14.132, I heard a number of European amateurs. Altogether, I found 18 SSb QSOs or nets between 14132 and 14335.
In some places, there were 20 Khz. gaps between stations - it would not have been hard to find an open frequency. Paricularly above 14250, the activity was sparse.
So, we see about 1/4 using CW, 1/4 using digital modes, and the rest using SSB. The good news is that there's still lots of activity, even when not at a peak time. I think the better news is that there appears to be room for lots more, particularly if we start using the other available bands.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE6I on September 11, 2003
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QUOTE...
So, we see about 1/4 using CW, 1/4 using digital modes,
and the rest using SSB. The good news is that there's still lots of activity, even when not at a peak time. I think the better news is that there appears to be room for lots more, particularly if we start using the other available bands.
END QUOTE...
Back in 1975 maybe HF bands would have been filled with people if they dropped the lowered the testing requirements, but these days nothing is going to change on the air no matter what they do to the licensing. The reasons are the internet and the deed restrictions on antennas. People can't put up antennas even if they want to. HF is safe from the crowds no matter what. Nobody cares.
Also, considering the ham bands in total, there is a huge amount of room -- especially people understimate how well they'll do on 2m SSB. For me, comparing, say, 600 watts and a wire at 35 feet on 80M versus 100 watts and a 5 'el beam at 35 feet on 2m, the 2m would wins out a lot of the time. I've done this comparison with other people in Northern California, and it seems often 2M is the band that gets through, while 80 is very weak.
I don't know. This whole attitude has been around forever. When was it that bunch of guys decided that 'nets' somehow weren't really ham radio and made endless trouble? Bleah.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 11, 2003
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Well, aside from all the debate, at least John KD7KGX has an opinion and the initiative to sit down and do some calculations for the love of ham radio. That in itself is most commendable. I think we could all do without the perpetual, seemingly infectious tendency for some to look down their noses at others for no other reason nor merit beyond a misplaced sense of loyalty, camraderie, and desire to be "in the club". We are all in this thing together, folks.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE6I on September 11, 2003
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Also, on the CB issue, I don't know about other parts of the country, but here in the SF Bay Area, CB is pretty quiet, except for when the band is open, and then its filled with Spanish speaking stations. Don't know where these guys are, but I assume maybe down in LA or something. And, right now, the ARRL doesn't even make the license test aids in Spanish. So, there's no attempt to get those guys properly licensed at all.
Where is this huge hoard of people willing to take 'the too easy test' on CB anxious to get on the ham radio bands? The technician test isn't that hard and that already gives you 10Mssb. I assume the freebanders are mostly illiterate and unable to read due to the poor school system and will be stopped by any test requiring any kind of reading comprehension.
This is surprisingly common I've discovered. I've been at the DMV and have seen guys filling out their driver's written test like they were doing the lottery. Just marking answers and hoping for the best. What a waste!
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 11, 2003
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Hi KE6I!
You wrote: "The technician test isn't that hard and that already gives you 10Mssb."
The last time I looked at a band plan, I came away with the distinct impression that "No Code Techs" had no HF privileges at all. Has something changed while I wasn’t paying attention??
73
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 11, 2003
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KE6I, Extra, said:
"The technician test isn't that hard and that already gives you 10Mssb"
You guys are NOT making a very good case against no-code HF priveleges. Some here accuse no-code proponents of having no initiative and a lack of interest in the rules and regulations, which will certainly translate into the demise of Amateur Radio.... Then once again, we see tickets above General spouting misinformation about R&R... What gives? Isn't knowing theory and bandplans part of being an Extra or Advanced?
the FCC regs plainly state:
"Technician
The privileges of a Technician Class operator license include operating stations while transmitting on channels in any of 17 frequency bands above 50 MHz with up to 1,500 watts of power. To pass the Technician Class examination, at least 26 questions from a 35 question written examination must be answered correctly. A Technician Class licensee who also has passed a 5 words-per-minute (wpm) telegraphy examination receives privileges in four long distance shortwave bands in the HF range (3-30 MHz) (Refer to Section 97.301)"
Nowhere does the plan allow for no-code Tech HF operation. Did something change or is the FCC site wrong?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NN6EE on September 11, 2003
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TO ALL THE EXTRAS!!!
You're RIGHT!!!
Use the or lose them (LOWER 25khz) of 80/40/20/ & 15m!!!
You Elitist "EXTRAS" are'nt deserving of the lower 25 on any of the bands, you're not using them except in CONTESTS" and even then you Boys migrate up to where the action is ABOVE .025!!! Even I would'nt waste my time talking with a "AMATEUR EXTRA" @ 5wpm when he should have been able to do 20wpm in the first place!!!
:-)))
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE6I on September 11, 2003
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Yeah, well, you know, I took that test and then forgot some of it. I think it's those band edges for Advanced other license classes that I never had never really stuck in my brain so well.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KE6I on September 11, 2003
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Really, I think the sub-bands have always been an obstacle to communication, which goes against the purpose of ham radio. If it were up to me, Extra would just get you the better callsigns -- and I'd guess a lot of people would still go for it even then. Here's a random thought...
Technician -- All HF at 100 watts.
General -- All HF at full power.
Extra -- Call sign preference
And that's it.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NN6EE on September 11, 2003
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KE6I,
I understand where you're coming from OB but if you guys don't use the allocated CW privileges given to you why should not Generals and us ADVANCED class holders be there to promote the MODE called CW???
Especially since every "JOE-YOKEL-WORLD" HF Wanna-BE insist that his or her Govt. get rid of it!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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Since we're talking about code/no-code...
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by W4FFG on September 11, 2003
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...I thought I'd fall in line and make a serious comment.
Usually, because I'm currently a Technician, I tend to lean towards the no-code end of things. And I've been known to post the occasional smart-ass remark or two, but I read something tonight that (finally) made some sense to me about keeping morse code as a filter for access to the HF bands...
KD7KGX posted "Nevertheless... I understand why employers look for a college degree and use it as a go/no-go indicator. It doesn't indicate knowledge, but it does show a level of maturity and perseverence... the ability to buckle down and get a job accomplished. I view the code test similarly."
To me, this simple statement is pretty profound. Employers do look for a college degree when screening/interviewing potential employees - and the degree doesn't even have to really relate to the job. Simply put, (as KD7KGX said) the completion of a degree shows maturity and commitment, and indicates the this potential employee would probably be an asset.
This example relates direcly to the code/no-code argument. Learning code and demonstrating some form of proficiency (copying 1 minute of code or answering questions relating to the message) also shows maturity and commitment.
So, I'd like to apologize for the smart-ass remarks that I've made in these forums. I was wrong. I hope to "see" you on the bands.
Don, w4ffg
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RE: Since we're talking about code/no-code...
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by NN6EE on September 12, 2003
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DON!!!
Very well done Post es no argument!!!
I too got a A.S. Degree out of Jr. College with a Certificate of Achievement as well (3.2 grade avg.) and eventhough I never really used it it did prove to my prospective Employers later on that I was willing to go the EXTRA MILE instead of "CRYING, BITCHING, and COMPLAINING about anything!!!"
Well Done Don!!!
Jim/nn6ee
Advanced Class
Code Proficiency= 40wpm
Retired Sheet-Metal Worker
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K7TUT on September 12, 2003
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If you look at the statistics you will find that the majority, vast majority of no code techs never renew their license. The hobby is dying a slow death. As for me, I would rather have crowded conditions then listen to the hiss of static when no one is there. I believe that eliminating the code will give this hobby a push in the right direction. Oh, by the way, I am an Extra who loves CW. I have a 14 year old no code tech son who is bored with 2 and 6 meters but loves to talk on HF. He has a problem with the code as he passed the General theory with no problem. He just cant seem to get the code as many cant. Why make it a requirement when we who love it know that is a language to us and not just a mode? Eliminate the code requirement and see what happens. I,for one, believe you will see that many young Hams will get their license. What is more fun then to talk to a new young Ham on the HF bands who studied for their license and passed? Let it go people and stop thinking that it will doom us! It seems to me that many, not all, who cling to the code requirement are the same people who feel that we "dumbed down" the Extra class license. I spent 8 weeks in a class to get my Extra and even though I agree that it was easier than 20 years ago, it re-ignited my interests and love for this hobby. Those of you who earned your license at 20wpm CW and passed a literal engineering tests are to be commended BUT.....your pride will end up destroying this hobby, not helping it if you do not LET IT GO.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 12, 2003
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KD7KGX wrote:>>>> "Nevertheless... I understand why employers look for a college degree and use it as a go/no-go indicator. It doesn't indicate knowledge, but it does show a level of maturity and perseverence... the ability to buckle down and get a job accomplished. I view the code test similarly."<<<<
Perhaps we wouldn't need a "go/no-go indicator" if the current testing procedure wasn't a such a joke!
We need to push for testing that allows an applicant to actually demonstrate that they have learned (and retained) the technical and operational information that is critical to good operation. The current practice of publishing all the questions and answers is laughable. I wish that I had had all the test questions and answers in hand back when I was pursuing an Engineering degree.
The main reason I really don't feel that code is a very good litmus test is that it's just not that hard! (At least at the 5 WPM level) I learned it 45 years ago as a boy scout. I've never tested for it or used it in amateur radio mainly because my tinnitus is so bad that I have trouble telling an "s" from a "u"! (Too many loud noises in the late '60s)
Remember, your 5 WPM "go/no-go indicator" will do nothing to prevent the new licensee from keying:
" - . -. / ..-. --- ..- .-. / --. --- --- -.. / -… ..- -.. -.. -.--"
73
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2QGV on September 12, 2003
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DISCLAIMER:
I hope no one takes the below comments as a serious effort to establish a position about this thread other than it is just so much wasted hot air…………….. Does anyone have a source for any other writings the original author may have written about Truck Drivers? I would like to know more about the social implications or stigma he has so broadly painted across my face, therefor prompting this serious effort at participating in the thread……………… Isn’t this a lot like requiring a test to show proficiency at motorcycle riding between Miami and Key West before you can get your Voters Registration card? This too would also keep a bunch of uninformed utilitarian truck driving voters from spoiling your elections and like Morse, most who go to the one time effort will never again make that trip on a motorcycle. Over the years this too could become a time honored tradition used to keep your political process clean and pure........ How about getting rid of some of those HF Nets that have one focused requirement for participants to say - "(I remember) My Call, I have nothing to say that anyone would be interested in, I'm still alive, and will be listening".......
******************************************************
Wow! Everyone has an opinion, but in this case, I believe none of the opinions will change the final outcome.
Utilitarian and Geek:
Well, I would guess most Hams would not be too happy if these were added to their licenses to replace Nov., Tech., Gen., Adv., or Ext. designations. Try explaining to your neighbor, friend, or local newspaper (anyone not a Ham) that you hold an Amateur Utilitarian Morse Non-Proficient or Amateur Geek Morse Proficient license issued by the FCC. Ha or Hi. I’m sure they will understand that the Geek license is better based mostly, if not solely, on your proficiency at continuous wave Morse. You can use Dits and Dahs to make letters, words, etc.. You explain it is the Universal Language, although the percentage of the earth’s population who can understand this language can be represented by dividing the distance from NYC to San Francisco in meters into the number 1. You have now demonstrated superior intellect and commitment to maintaining a high quality of standards; your puffed chest is turned away, they will most likely look at your back and think “Duh?”.
Let’s make the assumption that the rest of the world will drop the Morse requirement, and that here in the USA, American Utilitarian or Geek Hams will continue to have restricted freq., mode, and power based on Morse proficiency testing. Ok, here are some questions and problems needing solutions.
1. Is it possible to erect a RF Shield Bubble over the USA that only affects the Ham HF/RF bands? (Wouldn't want those Utilitarian Morse Non-Proficient Foreign Hams eating up any of your precious USA bandwidth – you could turn on the 1.5 KW amp, swing the beams and squash them; but that is not acceptable, right? Best to keep them out in the first place.)
2. What type of signature and technology would be needed to show a Morse proficiency test had (prior to the dropping of the requirement) been passed and therefore allow foreign voice, digital, or CW RF signals to pass freely through the USA RF Shield Bubble? How would a Geek Morse Proficient US Ham be able to recognize that he/she is communicating via voice or digital with a real Geek Morse Proficient Foreign Ham? Such tough questions, how can we find the answers?
3. Would QSO’s with Utilitarian Morse Non-Proficient Foreign Hams count toward DXCC for a Geek Morse Proficient USA Ham? How would the verification process work if not?
4. If the Morse requirement is dropped here in the USA, will Geek Morse Proficient Hams talk to Utilitarian Morse Non-Proficient Hams on HF?
*****************************************************
I’m getting bored. I have expended too much energy and time producing this bit of dribble…………….
Remember,
"There is no room at the Inn"
73 de N2QGV
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 12, 2003
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I find myself wondering if this whole debate is really just wasted hot air. After all, is there any real data on just how many of the "Ignorant, Godless, Codeless Hoard" will actually make use of the HF Bands?
I know seven people who have gotten their first license in the past two years, and only one of them has expressed any interest in HF at all. The others, whose interests range from simple mobile ops to Fast Scan TV, are perfectly content with the VHF/UHF bands. Before you HF users get all excited, let's figure out just how many No Code Techs would actually use the HF Bands if the code requirement went away.
Now there's a survey question I would like to see asked!
Open the survey to ONLY No Code Techs, and ask them if they would have any interest in HF if the code requirement were to be dropped.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N4GI on September 12, 2003
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Somebody wrote:
<<<First, I was surprised at the activity on 40 meters at 2 o'clock in the afternoon on a weekday>>>
Yeah, and you guys should hear 40 at night. It's wall to wall AM qso's!!!!
Perhaps the FCC should just let all the shack-on-a-belts have 40M AM-only privileges??? AM is one of them talking modes...isn't it???
CEEEEE-KEWWWWWWWW DX!
73, Blake (TIC) N4GI
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AD7DB on September 12, 2003
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This whole argument is a complete waste of time. The Code/NoCode horse has been beaten to death mercilessly. And the math is flawed too. If all the existing hams of General class and up got on the air at once we'd be out of HF spectrum. That's nowhere close to the real scene.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2NZJ on September 12, 2003
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YES WE CAN WELL AFFORD ALL THE NEW HAMS WE CAN GET.it will keep the hobby alive and well for a long time to come. we will never be overloaded at any time IF THE CODE REQUIREMENT IS DROPPED AS A TEST ELEMENT you will see growth however BUT EVER SLOWLY.we will not have an INFLUX OF NEWBIES BY THE DROVES.what we can not afford is STAGNATION BY THE RETENTION OF AN OBSOLETE TEST REQUIREMENT.support either RM-10786 or RM-10787 so this GREAT HOBBY WILL NOT EVER DIE INTO THE ANNALS OF HISTORY.REMEMBER THE HOBBY YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR "OWN". DE N2NZJ TOM NCI# 4936
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 12, 2003
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"shack-on-a-belts" ? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
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RE: Shack on a Belt
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by NN6EE on September 12, 2003
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Blake/N4GI,
That's just terrible about hearing HOW POPULAR that ancient/archaic MODE called AM really is!!!
GEE!!! Now there's another mode that ought to be "OUT-LAWED"!!!
That'll be another mode that the NO-CODE INT. People will want to get rid of as well because it would take up too much space in the Ham spectrum that the new HF "NO-CODERS/NO TESTS/NO NOTHING advocates may want to utilize ultimately with their new "PLUG & PLAY" rigs!!!
OH!!! Another proposal!!! Let's dissolve the FCC as well!!! Who needs them when the "WANNABES" would rather have a FREE-FOR-ALL on HF because it's their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, by God!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Shack on a Belt
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by KC5NYJ on September 12, 2003
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I knew what he was referring to, it's the spirit of the comment that I question. I suppose he means folks who only own an HT, and therefore should be held with great contempt. In other words, sort of a class discrimination with no basis in reality. Or to put it more succinctly, it's a comment from a person who feels if all hams don't share his particular interests within the hobby, then they should be maligned and perhaps banned.
N4GI- why don't you qualify your snobbery by filling us in on your contributions to the advancement of the art of radio?
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FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!
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by RFSOAKED on September 12, 2003
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Someone on this thread mentioned the current survey on eHam about keeping the CW requirement. As of today the Yes votes for the removal are in the lead, now its obvious that the ballot box has been stuffed, and its all over the web like a call to arms to defeat the survey, but there is something else funny coming to light now.
Yesterday when the No votes from the pro-cw hams were in the lead by twice as many votes they were shouting how the survey was showing how good CW is and why it shouldnt be removed. But now that the Yes votes are in the lead, valid or not, the pro-cw types are coming around again to comment how the survey holds no merit and should not be considered in any shape or form. Thats odd, because just 24 hours ago they were swearing up and down how the survey was gods last words.
oh well, thats my 2 cents.
73,
David
13wpm General class licensee
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RE: FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!
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by NN6EE on September 12, 2003
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Hiya David!!!
At least you're one of the individuals who went thru the PROCESS and got your license LEGITIMATELY!!!
And just maybe your "take" on this controversy is that "HEY GUYS, quit crying "IF I COULD DO IT WHY CAN'T YOU???"
But alas, apparently there is a supposedly "NEW-BREED" that wants entrance to a actually elitist fraternity of HF Operators without proving their mettle to us in any way!!!
So "NO-CODERS" if you don't try to do it the HARD WAY, learning CODE, I'm not the only one who will hold you in contempt!!!
Whether you guys know it or not there are thousands of us other guys who came up thru "THE RANKS"!!!
We're damn proud of that fact!!!
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!
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by KB9YZL on September 12, 2003
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Boy…………………….Do I feel foolish!
I FINALLY figured it out! (Well, I am getting older, and they do say that the mind starts to go…………)
I understand now what is going on here. You guys doing all the shouting in the “Pro Code” corner have come to the realization that a simple 5 WPM code requirement isn’t going to keep anybody off the HF Bands. You realized that you were going to have to come up with something else to keep your precious HF Bands relatively empty for your rag chewing.
So………you collectively decided that if you could appear to be Pompous, Elitist Snobs, with no tolerance, and a serious class prejudice, no one would WANT to come up to the HF Bands to talk to you!
BRILLIANT!!!! Your plan has certainly worked with me! If I ever need to talk to an intolerant, venomous person, I’ll call my ex-wife. She at least knows me, and can make her harangue sound believable.
Have fun up there! The only place you’ll ever have to talk to me is in these forums.
BTW: I learned code a LONG time ago.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD7BBO on September 12, 2003
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You've got to be kidding. what your saying is that all the new upgrades will be on the air 24/7 I can't
buy that. Even through your nubers are right if the entire u.s. was talking at once.Another point is not will be running same amount power and how many will not renew thier licens this year.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 13, 2003
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I am shocked and saddened by the self-destructive attitude of so many hams regarding the anachronism we call CW. These self-important snobs will be the death of this great hobby.
I have been licensed since 1968. I was 12 when I passed my General. With the ham population about half of what it is today, the bands were more alive and more diverse in interest and age, Today, the bands are empty a great deal of time and mostly populated with radio cliques. The young ham is nearly extinct. And yet, the geezers (of all ages) are intent on maintaining CW because it is a “filter” or some sort of perverse hazing. Meanwhile, the hobby dies the slow death of extinction.
Not only is the topic article ridiculous with it use of numbers, it’s dangerous in its attitude. Even more disturbing is the number of supporting comments. But I understand the Flat Earth Society is still going strong as well.
It’s time to reinvent this great hobby. Clutching to the corpse of the past will be its undoing.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 13, 2003
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NN6EE:
All you are proud of is being an elitist snob...
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by GW0VMR on September 13, 2003
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Over here as you all know what is being talked about has happened, the only change so far tends to be the use of more slang on SSB rather than plain simple English, other than that I honestly can not see a lot of change and this is from a CW mad operator. The strange thing is I find that most amateurs dont operate ham radio! they just seem to like having a call-sign so the band usage in the main will I feel stay about the same?
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2QGV on September 13, 2003
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The below <snip> is from:
The ARRL Letter, Vol 22, No 36
Date: 9/12/2003 9:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time
"Morse code proficiency "as a qualifying criterion for an HF amateur license is no longer relevant to the healthy future of Amateur Radio.""
and
"the council's resolution recognized Morse code as "an effective and efficient mode of communication used by many thousands of radio amateurs."
Phone (SSB, FM, AM) and Digital (PKS31, etc) are also reconized as effective and efficient modes of communication used by many thousands of radio amateurs. I believe it forecasts what action the FCC will take this year, and therefore makes this thread a mute issue.
<snip>
* +IARU already looking toward next WRC
<snip>
In the aftermath of WRC-03, the council urged IARU member-societies to call to the attention of their administrations "the desirability of adopting specific changes in their domestic regulations for the amateur
and amateur-satellite services, so that they will be consistent with the revised Article 25 of the international Radio Regulations."
In that vein, the IARU governing body called for the removal of Morse code as an examination requirement to operate on HF. The council reiterated its stance first taken in 2001 that Morse code proficiency "as a qualifying criterion for an HF amateur license is no longer relevant to the healthy future of Amateur Radio."
"IARU policy is to support the removal of Morse code testing as a requirement for an amateur license to operate on frequencies below 30 MHz," the IARU Administrative Council resolved. At the same time, the
council's resolution recognized Morse code as "an effective and efficient mode of communication used by many thousands of radio amateurs." It also
took into account ITU-Radiocommunication Sector (ITU-R) Recommendation M.1544, which sets down the minimum qualifications of radio amateurs."
<end snip>
<end comments>
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KI4BCL on September 13, 2003
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Okay time to chime in from the middle. I'll be 44 in December - so that sort of makes me a MT (middle timer) compared to the OT's and newbies.
To the new folks - welcome aboard! You passed the test. Everything you don't know - folks already here will help you out with. Accept correction with humility and offer criticisim tactfully. New blood is the life of any hobby, etc.
If you came from CB many years ago (like I did) - please shed your old habits. It's not the CB designation -- it's the undisciplined behaviour, and lack of respect and courtesy that is not welcome.
Listen to the experienced folks - there's alot that can be learned from them.
OT's we all need help with one thing or another. Offer correction without humiliation. Remember - you too were probably laughed at by the OT's of your day.
It's up to the established hams to set the standards for good behaviour, lady/gentlemanly conduct - so that others can see how to act.
NOW - I hate to say this - but most of the rude comments and profanity I have heard - is on HF with what sounds like the older operators. Remember ALL - we have kids out there listening and learning as well.
It's the exception and not the norm - but it is still UNSAT - let's fix this and fix it now.
"We cant tell where the bad ops are alot of times because it's HF". The bad ops all live or operate near someone. If you know someone who's been acting up on the bands - simply tell them to clean up their act or risk getting turned in. Simple as that. This is a wonderful hobby - let's keep the ranks clean folks.
Over all - do we need more hams? NO - we need more QUALIFIED, WILLING TO LEARN, GOOD ATTITUDED (new word) HAMS. I don't care you have little experience -you'll get that from operating (see items above). Hopefully then - the new hams will pass along their good experiences to the new hams after them.
Testing: - Make the tests more comprehensive - not loaded with stupid BS trick questions - just questions - alot of them in the pool - that find out if you either know the material or not.
Keep the Band allocations as they are.
I have heard -"Well we should open up the CW allocations for SSB, etc" - LOL - you're on drugs. How about getting MORE spectrum from somewhere else. If anything - make allocations more specific. I personally enjoy CW. There are other modes that I can't see me getting excited about - however - I will throw everything I have at fighting to make sure those allocations stay put too.
I'm not a newby and nowhere near where the real experiecned folks are. I think I'm pretty near the target (on this opinion) though. Take ownership of our hobby. GUARD IT JEALOUSLY! Apply common sense and courtesy - and enjoy!
GodBless,
Ken Hunter
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RE: Shack on a Belt
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by N4GI on September 13, 2003
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KC5NYJ wrote:<<N4GI- why don't you qualify your snobbery by filling us in on your contributions to the advancement of the art of radio?>>
Sure! We can set up a sched., maybe 40CW? I'll tell you all about myself. Look forward to meeting you.
Blake N4GI
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RE: Shack on a Belt
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by K6BBC on September 13, 2003
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Well, the ME generation has finally surfaced its ugly head in amateur radio:
"I personally enjoy CW. There are other modes that I can't see me getting excited about - however - I will throw everything I have at fighting to make sure those allocations stay put too."
If anyone does not think the band allocations are in complete disarray, they must be living in 1938. I personally have not heard a single QSO from an American ham on 20 meters from 14.100 to 14.150 or on 15 from 21.150 to 21.200. In fact, as one tunes away from 14.075 the band seem empty until 14.150.
As Hams, we need to reevaluate how we divide our spectrum. Starting the phone band on 20 meters at 14.100 would not effect anybodies enjoyment of CW.
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RE: Shack on a Belt
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by KI4BCL on September 13, 2003
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1. I'm not sure how the subject line in the forum got twisted up "Shack on a Belt"
2. K6BBC - nah - there's lots of traffic in those bands... Depends on when you're listening.
Also - I'm not sure where you are concluding that I'm a ME gen'er.... email me if you want - I want to hear your reasoning on that one...
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 13, 2003
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The ME Generation: Those who were raised with the belief that the needs of the individual are paramount to the needs of society.
Activity between 14.100 and 14.150 – RIDICULOUS.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC5NYJ on September 13, 2003
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<Sure! We can set up a sched., maybe 40CW? I'll tell you all about myself. Look forward to meeting you.>
So, you are unable to convey your many accomplishments on the forum? Or are you unable to interface with humans directly? Or is it that you, like many other hams, including myself, really have not done anything in particular to advance the art of radio, nor plan to, but simply enjoy the hobby?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KI4BCL on September 13, 2003
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"The ME Generation: Those who were raised with the belief that the needs of the individual are paramount to the needs of society."
You're right on that one - however - you missed miserably if you're aiming at me. I served in the U.S. Marine Corps for 11 years. I went in with a case of the ME's however - I was fortunate enough be mentored by senior enlisted and officers. I used to teach math, electronics, rf theory, etc to junior and senior Marines. I surely haven't done enough - but I surely have not done nothing.
Onward: "Activity between 14.100 and 14.150 – RIDICULOUS."
Yaesu FT1000, 40m Dipole @ 25 feet, here in northern Va - I took a minute several hours ago right after your post and checked. I found several stations running various digital modes. The band does not have to be active all the time. Yes - I realize the conditions vary according to location.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by NN6EE on September 13, 2003
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N8VB!!!
RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF? Reply
by K6BBC on September 13, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I am shocked and saddened by the self-destructive attitude of so many hams regarding the anachronism we call CW. These self-important snobs will be the death of this great hobby.
******************************************************
Nah I'm not an ELITIST pre se BUT I DO TAKE PRIDE IN THE HOBBY and my highly-honed SKILLS at using CODE!!! TOO BAD YOU HAVE AN AN "EXTRA-LITE" attitude it makes the EXTRAS that came before YOU pissed-off!!!
You're a very "SHALLOW" person yourself!!!
:-)))
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by VHFANDUHF on September 13, 2003
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Jesus christ, you old f@#$%^s need to take a chill pill and get on with life.
Its funny reading though, the old pro-cw stuffed shirts have to resort to name calling and lower class licensee bashing to make them feel important. Just to damn bad most of them are impotent instead.
Yep, you bash, i bash, thats the way it goes. What comes around goes around jackasses.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 13, 2003
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Dear KI4BCL:
My utmost gratitude to your for serving our country. I hope no offence has been taken.
Dear NN6EE:
What is an “extra-lite.” I have an advanced license. I took my exam at the FCC in Los Angeles where I copied 13 WPM and passed two written exams.
And another thing, what’s with your call? You picked it. What were you thinking?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8VB on September 14, 2003
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NN6EE:
Extra Light, ha ha ha. I have both EE and CS degrees along with 22 WPM proficiency in CW. Somehow I don't think that makes me an Extra Light... BUT calling me an Extra Light makes you an elitist snob.
N8VB
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 14, 2003
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Well....., now I've seen it all: "Extras" calling each other names and questioning each others abilities!
I guess it's nice to know that they don't reserve their venom specifically for the new Hams!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WB6UYG on September 14, 2003
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This type of posting is divisive, and bigoted. Yes, putting down a class of individual to make yourself look better is bigotry. Lets try building people up, not tearing them down. I may be an extra, but I'm thinking one class of license and no code is the answer.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KZ9G on September 15, 2003
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K7TUT said it best. Read his comment above.
I'm proud of my radio and CW talents, as well as my continuing career in the business. But, I'm not that proud... Please, let's not have our hobby die a slow death. The average age of typical ham is already in it's late 50's or early 60's, and in 10 to 20 years the MAJORITY of the licensed hams will be long gone (if not sooner). Moreover, I'd like to enjoy HR when I retire someday, and at the rate we accept change within our ranks, it'll surely die with the oldtimers and their stubborn inflexibility (unless the FCC does something to save the service).
It's time for a limited no-code license. Let's get new hams on-board and hook'em for life. Maybe we can get a few of our teens involved with RF, as well as computer technology, and keep a few Americans as engineers - instead of importing them as is presently being done by the wireless companies I deal with.
73 de Steve, KZ9G
"A thirty something telecom engineer who earned his amateur and commercial licenses in front of the FCC as a teenager and 20 year old."
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KD7KGX on September 15, 2003
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I think most people agree on the problem: the ham population is not increasing in a statistically significant way (not keeping pace with the growing population).
I think most people disagree on the solution, because they disagree on what is causing the problem.
I'm sure the code requirement discourages some percentage of potential hams. At 5 wpm I don't think it's a high percentage. I base this on the # of people who have gotten Techs since the CW requirements were reduced in 2000 -- two-thirds of new hams since that date have gotten HF privileges by passing Element 1A.
I'm sure that on-the-air bad behavior discourages some potential of hams, who rather than get into an argument just stop operating... and after a while decide that the hobby causes more stress than it relieves. I don't know what the percentage here is, but I bet more hams stay off the air because of jerks than fail to earn their HF license because of the Morse requirement.
I don't want the airwaves to myself... who would I talk to? :-), but I know that when I'm in the middle of a CW QSO and some thoughtless person decides to tune up on my frequency... and then follows our QSO as we QSY... well, the aggravation makes me stop operating after I end the QSO. It doesn't take a very large number of lids (unintentional interferers) or jerks (intentional interferers) to ruin an evening on the air. Note that these people aren't necessarily HF-privileged hams... any ham (or any person) who owns an HF capable rig has the potential to interfere.
Here's what I _DO_ want... a testing protocol that:
• Isn't too hard, so that laypeople who are interested in basic electronics can pass the test after 20 to 30 hours of self-study,
• Tests proper operating knowledge, so that new hams will know enough to NOT interfere with other operators,
• Tests basic proficiency in ALL popular modes by appropriate means, i.e., VHF/UHF FM operations testing would verify knowledge of band-specific standard repeater offsets, repeater QSO procedures, and simplex QSO procedures, SSB operations testing would verify knowledge of proper QSO procedures, measuring/verifying signal bandwidth (perhaps with another ham's help), CW operations testing would test BASIC (5 wpm) receiving capability, proper QSO procedures, and zero-beating, and HF digital mode operations testing would verify PSK signal adjustment, interface construction, proper tuning techniques, and audio and/or visual (from waterfall samples) identification of different modes,
• Ensures that a person who passes the test has demonstrated the KNOWLEDGE to operate properly on the bands allowed by the license class.
However, this leaves a BIG hole... how to verify proper attitude? How do you at least improve the odds of keeping the type of person who would intentionally cause interference off the bands?
We can fit several thousand more HF users on the bands at any given time... IF they all cooperate. But, if new users are the type who think they own a frequency because they use it occasionally, or that it's fun (or those elitist HF bastards deserve it) to send the intermittent dot, or carrier, on top of an ongoing CW QSO, or that they can be rude or obnoxious to hams involved in a QSO... or a ham wanting to join a roundtable... well, a few dozen of these on the air at any one time and the HF bands become pretty much useless.
I'm not convinced that eliminating the code will greatly increase the total # of licensed operators. I'm not convinced that keeping the code prevents large numbers of otherwise motivated people from becoming hams. I believe that the value one places in a resource or accomplishment are directly related to the amount of time, money, and/or effort required to earn that resource or accomplishment, and that correspondingly people value something more when it is earned than when it is given. I also believe that the type of operator who would rather have the rules changed than legitimately try to pass Elements 1A and 3 is more likely to be the type of person who doesn't really care about the rules. Note to you "educated" types: "more likely" doesn't mean EVERYONE so if you feel this doesn't apply to YOU then you are probably right.
The original Novice license was a great method of generating interest in ham radio. I want to repeat that method, but make it easier by the use of modern technology. My solution, again, would be to give all Techs immediate Tech Plus privileges... no more and no less. For those who want to work DX but hate code, spend $50 and get a program that sends and decodes CW from a computer. You're on the HF bands, you can run one HF digital mode (CW), the chances of you interfering with currently licensed operators is greatly reduced, the utilization of the Novice subbands will (hopefully) be greatly increased... and you will find yourself learning CW in spite of your hatred to the point that you will be able to pass the code test in less than a year without effort and then you can run with the Big Dogs. But don't be surprised if, somehow, you find yourself using the computer only for logging, you acquire lots of keys, and you spend most of your time in CW QSOs and enjoying the heck out of ham radio.
To all of you who claim I hate Techs, am a snob, want the bands to myself, am insecure, vote Democrat/Republican/Green/Socialist Workers Party/etc., beat my wife/mother/dog/etc., torture small cuddly animals, and/or am itching to drop my mic and/or key and head for the nearest bell tower with a clear field of fire... sit back and take a deep breath. If you really want what is best for ham radio then can you really find fault with my solution?
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N4GI on September 15, 2003
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KC5NYJ writes:<<So, you are unable to convey your many accomplishments on the forum? Or are you unable to interface with humans directly?>>
Uh, no sir. Actually I am too busy interfacing with normal humans every day to argue with you, and quite simply, I enjoy operating my radios more than typing stuff on an internet web site. Ever stop to think that "the forum" really doesn't care to read either of our boring banter?
I'm done,
Blake N4GI
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 15, 2003
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To KD7KGX;
Thank you for a thoughtful, well written post!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W5UX on September 15, 2003
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Part of the problem is that radio is not a macho thing. In my high school, I think there were three hams. In this cowboy society, The youngsters are not about to get into a nerd hobby. After people get much older, They don't worry about things like that. When my high school buddies came by. I told them the ham set belonged to my dad. They stared at as if it were something the cat coughed up.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KR4XH on September 15, 2003
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to KD7KGX,
VERY well said... And some welcome food for thought.
73
don KR4XH
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AB8EO on September 15, 2003
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Lets see.. 2-2.5 khz for ssb qso versus 50 hz for cw.
hmmmm
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KR4XH on September 15, 2003
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and I was referring to your last post. NOT the origin of this thread(which I believe is flawed, as many have pointed out).
The last one was very good though...
don KR4XH
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WP3YU on September 15, 2003
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Great!!!!!!!!!!
But you are forgetting something pal, all of you can enjoy the benefits of VHF/UHF bands. There are lots of spectrum for everybody. So enjoy it while we techs experiment in HF...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by AA2ZR on September 15, 2003
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I started out as one of these no-code techs when it wasn't cool to be one. My late grandparents, K4GKN & K4GKO, had great influence in me upgrating to HF privs. First, Tech+, then General, Advanced & finally Amaeteur Extra. This was some time ago. There NEEDS to be some code requirement and I feel more difficult written exams. My grandparents told me they were REQUIRED to draw schematics of unknown (until the exam) ciruits. You may have to travel many miles to get to an exam. Also, it was not in front of your ham buddies but a FCC examiner. It seems like it's easy enough to get a licence now... why make it any easier. A ham licence like a drivers licence is a privilege NOT a right.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 16, 2003
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OKAY, I HAVE NOW BEEN DRIVEN TO SCREAMING.
AA2ZR – WHAT IS THE VALUE OF DRAWING SCHEMATICS???!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!!! IN FACT, I DON’T WANT TO TALK TO ANYBODY INTERESTED IN DRAWING SCHEMATIC. IN FACT, I HATE FRIGGING TECH TALK. I HAVE BEEN A HAM FOR 35 YEARS AND I AM SICK, SICK, SICK OF IT. THERE ARE MANY INTERESTING TOPICS IN THE VAST WORLD TO CONVERSE ABOUT – SCHEMATICS IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But here lies the problem. The geezer mentality. This will be the hobbies undoing. We need a more diverse group of hams. Interesting people with interesting things on their minds – not the useless clap track we hear 24/7 on the bands.
PEOPLE. AS HAMS, WE NEED TO SEE TO IT THAT THIS HOBBY EVOLVES.
DROP THE CODE. IT IS JUST FLAT OUT STUPID AND A WASTE OF TIME TO LEARN IT IF THERE IS NO INTEREST.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by RADIO123US on September 16, 2003
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KD7KGX said "I also believe that the type of operator who would rather have the rules changed than legitimately try to pass Elements 1A and 3 is more likely to be the type of person who doesn't really care about the rules. Note to you "educated" types: "more likely" doesn't mean EVERYONE so if you feel this doesn't apply to YOU then you are probably right."
100 percent correct...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K1XT on September 16, 2003
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You must be kidding. I've been licensed 25 years, and I've noticed less use of the hams bands now then ever before. I have no problem finding a frequency to operate on. Twenty meters used to be almost impossible, now it sounds more like 15 meters. And 2 meters here at my QTH of St. Louis is hardly used at all. There is a repeater on every split, but very little activity. Some repeaters I have scanned for days and never hear a single QSO. Many hams today talk via the computer while the rig hisses in the background. That's not "radio".
Bill k1xt
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by HAM-MAN on September 16, 2003
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RE: K6BBE
Finally! Thank you so much for your message. I've been saying this for years. I've been a ham for 12 years and am "young" (early 30's) compared to most hams out there. Having said that, the problem that faces the Amateur Radio world today is the vast amount of "older" gentlemen who are set in their ways, dislike "kids" such as myself and are just plain stubborn. In years past, the code was practicle, and very long ago, it was the only means of communication. Those days are long gone and the older folks just don't want to let go.
I'll never forget when I first got my license, I was 18 and decided to go to a meeting of one of our local repeater clubs. When I got there, I was surrounded by people 65+ years of age, rude language, and general grumpieness. All they did was argue with one another, call each other names, and act very mean. I couldn't believe it. No one intruduced themselves and they made me feel unwelcome. If this is way that Amateur Radio is promoted, its lifespan is extremely limited. Needless to say, I never went back.
Getting rid of the code, I think will invite new operators and keep ham radio alive. Also, there will be more than enough room on HF because, let's remember even though the code will be gone, people still will have to pass the theory and spend money to buy radios. I think the only people who will do so are interested parties.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by K6BBC on September 17, 2003
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HAM-MAN – you are 100% correct about the geezer factor. They put a bad light on the hobby. It’s the same geeks who run around wearing handhelds and acting like cops.
K1XT – also right on the money. The bands are far less used than 20 years ago. There is plenty of room now – PLENTY. I have a Yeasu FT 8900 in my car (10, 6, 2, 440) I live in the LA area. I have the same reaction as you. Very little activity. I finally got on on of the repeaters and starting chewing out all the people who listen, never talk to anyone they don’t know, etc. Well, suddenly there was 3 other stations on the freq. Can you explain the logic of monitoring a dead channel?
We need a new crop of hams.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8FVJ on September 17, 2003
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I find 75 meters every night & 20 meters during the day & early evenings on weekends very busy. Rest of the bands are ok. We are losing 10 meters due to low sun spot activity, yet 15 meters is open & barely used.
75 meters at night is like a country club that polices itself. At times a reply is 'get the heck out of here'. It is a very effective control without any 'drive by shootings' so to speak.
So, I believe the real effect would be minimal. As for the CW side, I would like to have the voice bands extended & modify the CW/Digital space later if overcrowding results. I doubt if it will ever need to be changed back.
The problem is the hobby needs more operators for the commercial side of the business. Yep, it is a business & without dollars being spent, the hobby (any hobby) will slowly die.
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by MM0DBC on September 17, 2003
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Hi,
I've been following the various postings on whether
compulsory morse testing should stay or go,and am
amazed at the amount of animosity being put
into print.the debate has degenerated to the point
that certain sections of the community seem to look upon the fact that if you haven't passed a morse
test your some form of lower being.
Can I point out that we all passed the same basic
exam to get a licence and the only difference is
some went on to pass a morse test.
"THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE SOME SUPERIOR INTELLECT"
its time some people remembered this.
As to the point made about commitment and the study
of furthering communication modes
"TO MY KNOWLEDGE A MORSE TEST DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN
FIX-BUILD-DESIGN OR PIONEER ANYTHING "
there are many people out ther who can't send morse
but are far more valuable to the continuation of the advance of the hobby than some CRETIN who pertains to be "A REAL HAM COS HE PASSED A MORSE TEST"
I am in no way against either a morse test or the valuable use it has in the hobby but
PLEASE LETS ALL GET ALONG IT'S A HOBBY NOT THE HOLY GRAIL. there's enough people trying to gain access
to the radio spectrum without us self destructing for them
Dave gm6jua/mm0dbc
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by ECHOLINK on September 17, 2003
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The hams bitching about the code, no code debate is a cult. You know the “I had to do it so should you crowd". The “right of passage” to get on the air should not be the code. The reality is that the code is going and 20 years from now those in the cult will be dead and gone and ham radio will be alive and well. I guess when your claim to fame in life is knowing the code this is what happens.
I must admit I am worried about over crowding (which already exist). The only solution is to expand the phone portion of the band. It is about time to revamp the old outdated band plan anyway.
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by CODEBASHER on September 24, 2003
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>Open the survey to ONLY No Code Techs, and ask them
>if they would have any interest in HF if the code
>requirement were to be dropped.
>
>Kent Carroll
>KB9YZL
I for one would, to talk to my sister in southern Oregon (cheaper than phone calls and more fun too) and maybe an hour ot two each day at a round table or for a net or two. The rest of the time I'll be on 2m and 70cm monitoring/talking to local friends. As there will be few friends on HF due to the High Degree of "Qualifying" that will be out there!
73's de N0KLU, Mike
Rolla, Missouri
NCI-4743
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by CODEBASHER on September 24, 2003
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Polish Digital Clock
Every now and again there comes a graphic so good the fresh concept
blows you away. The University of Poland science students have finally
finished their digital clock they have been working on for 4 years. Go
to this site to see the results:
http://www.yugop.com/ver3/stuff/03/fla.html This is a real clock, and
its pretty cool.
Try something different for a while and cool down the temeratures.
73's de N0KLU, Mike
Rolla, Missouri
NCI-4743
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KB9YZL on September 24, 2003
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Mike;
Thanks for your reply to my informal survey. I'm collecting the serious posts (unfortunately a minority) in an effort to make sense out of this issue.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N8ZTY on September 25, 2003
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The main purpose of amateur radio is service. We content that our society needs amateur radio for national security. We believe that it is important to have a pool of train people to help with communications in times of emergencies.
If we agree with these statements then it is in our nation's best interest not to limited numbers. We need to have as many qualified operators as possible. We need large numbers. Thus the FCC should never limit the numbers due to bandwidth concerns.
Now the issue is what makes a qualified operator. That the only issue that is important and we have argued that issue adnasum.
Philip
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N0RTU on November 27, 2003
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Hello John!
I'm sure I can't calculate all the variables that would go into figuring how many qso's could be contained inside our HF allotments at any given moment.
However, I will say that I believe it will work if "newbies"(I don't like that word, it sometimes infers that the less experienced ops are the troublemakers on our HF bands and just as often I've heard some of the most foul language, insults, intentional QRM, and so on from folks who have been licensed for 20++ years!)are allowed some HF freqs.
Here is how.
1. No matter how much it hurts the rest of us, we can learn to be patient and courteous.
2. Some of us "more experienced" operators need to remember that we don't "own" a certain frequency.
3. Finally, for those who have a problem with this, Go to your nearest Wal-Mart store in the Pharmacy department, and for less the twenty bucks you can be the proud owner of a sense of humor!
Yes, some of the "newbies" will be a pain for a while. Probably just like you and I were a few(maybe more than a few) years back.
It takes a little while to learn what is acceptable and what isn't.
But, the bottom line is this. There are some super great people in the "newbie" ranks. Although their manners may need a little fine tuning at times(and ours don't?), some of these ops may very well have some fantastic contributions to make to radio. I'll bet they will in fact.
Let's don't push them out before they even get a chance.
No single ham has the say as to what the rules and reg's will change to. We will have to accept what the arrl(the source of many of our woes) and the fcc decide or get out.
If the less experienced operators get hf priveledges I do believe there will be room for us all.
But it will be up to all of us to calm down, cooperate, and learn again how to "play together" and make new friends........
Best wishes and safe Hamming to all
Mike
N0RTU
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on February 13, 2004
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N0RTU
Say young man, I read your article
But
can you repeat it as I don't fully
Understand
Were you eating biscuits and gravy at the time?
Say again please.
.:
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by W6TH on February 13, 2004
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John Clifford KD7KGX,
John I believe your article is one of the greatest. I don't believe that many will take heed to your beliefs and will be as crowded as possible. There will be no stopping of band crowding as the money bags will win the vote.
What is due to happen.
With the abundance of hams entering do to freebanding, meaning no code or testing operators, most in time will be disgusted and will leave the ham fraternity and go elswhere for more excitement. The increase will be decreased and will be back to what it is today. All things average out to norm.
Ham radio will be a rich mans hobby and will no longer benefit the poor or those that cannot afford it.
The disgrace of ham radio will be those that caused this and that will be the organizations who provided such happenings.
When you look at it there is always room on top.
73 John and keep us informed.
.:
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by N2EY on March 23, 2004
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>This article states the best reasoning that I've seen >to eliminate the CW sub bands and open up for SSB >Phone use.
We don't have any "CW sub bands" on amateur HF. They're all shared with digital modes.
>If CW is so spectrially efficient compared to SSB >than why does it need 50% of our allocated bandwidth?
It doesn't have 50% of our allocated HF/MF bandwidth. Look up the number of kHz allocated to CW/digital on the ham bands from 160 through 10, and compare to the number allocated to phone/image. Except for 30 meters, where all 50 kHz is CW/digital, those modes have no more than 50% of any band. On some bands the percentage is far less, and on HF/MF as a whole it is less than 50%.
One reason to have subbands where 'phone isn't allowed is to give an incentive to use modes that are more spectrally efficient.
--
There's plenty of room for more hams on HF. Here's why:
Of those who currently hold Tech licenses (about 200,000 who do not currently have HF):
- Some are totally inactive
- Some have no interest in HF
- Some cannot get on HF for a variety of reasons
So right away there would be far less than 200,000 showing up.
Of those who would become HF active:
- Some would immediately go for General or Extra
- Some would use modes other than 'phone
So we'd have even fewer heading for the 'phone bands.
And on top of all that, how many hours per week would they actually be transmitting?
We currently have over 470,000 US hams with licenses that allow at least some HF privileges. Ignoring 60 meters with its 5 channels, there are only 3750 kHz allocated to US hams below 30 MHz. If just 1% of us are on the air (actually transmitting) at any given time, that's 4700, or more than one per kHz. Are the bands that crowded?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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RE: Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by KC2IJI on June 28, 2004
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Ridiculous.
I'm a mere tech, so by some definititons here, I should be pleased with my CB, er, 2m FM rig.
I also have a 746 Pro that I use for SW listening, Utility, and sometimes ham monitoring.
You guys on 75 have nothing to be proud of.
I consider learning code to be equivalent to being forced to learn mandarin chinese. I suggest that we all be forced to learn how to run a spark gap transmitter too.
I don't see how CW makes one a "good ham", or not knowing CW makes one a "bad ham". I'm all for sub-bands, and respecting of same. This argument makes less and less sense. While some want CW "because it's Know Ham" or some such garbage, or fear of CB'ers (circa 1978), the fact is that CW is no longer a necessary item. I understand that it is the most efficent mode, but at this point, with the average ham on life support, and me a baby ham at a mere 40 years, CW is only making those bands more open for the commercial interests we KNOW want to buy them.
End the CW requirment NOW, FCC. We no coders will have to deal with snobs for the first two years, but later no one will really care.
Casey
K2FIX
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WH6DCC on October 14, 2004
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Hi John, I agree with what you are saying but it seems that you are putting the Hams with a no code ticket like me in a bad light, it just seems that way I hope not, I am very much into electronics and that is why I became a operator, I just do not have the time right now to do my code, the written tests are no problem for me, it looks like I do not fit your description of a no code operator, I think it is bad to seperate the hams into 2 catagories smart ones and dumb ones or as you put it code and no code, it seems that you are creating the demise of the hams by making 2 different typs of hams one vs the other---not good..I will get my code done one day, also let me tell you a story of a CB operator that did not know how to read or write, learning the things he needed to get his ticket is how he learned to read and write and he passed his10 wpm code, Hams helped him and motivated him, you sound non-motivating, we as hams are obligated to help ANYONE to get there ticket and get on the air...BUT I do agree we should keep the code and not discontinue the code...
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Can We Afford Everyone on HF?
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by WA2DYA on December 9, 2004
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I guess it might be a temporary problem. I've keep reading all those articles about ham radio dying. In another 10 years, or so, the bands will all be empty.
Hi Hi --- CHAS
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