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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Current in Antenna Loading Coils

Yuri Blanarovich (K3BU) on October 15, 2003
View comments about this article!

Current distribution in the Antenna Loading Coils.

Yuri Blanarovich, K3BU, VE3BMV, VE1BY

A recent article on eHam.net by Alan Applegate, K0BG "In Search of 'The Perfect Mobile Antenna'" on Aug. 5, 2003 and posted comments, created some controversy and heated exchange between myself and the "well respected engineer" (according to Aaron, NN6O) Tom Rauch, W8JI. This article had some flaws and was far from approaching "perfect" mobile antenna. To which W8JI stated:

"By using a flawed and seriously over-simplified model, the results are totally misleading when applied to conventional antennas. Repeating misleading information in article after article does NOT make it correct. It certainly does not make our community more skilled or better informed about how things work."

and

"While I appreciate all your (K0BG) efforts, it is important that readers and writers fully understand why and how something works before reaching conclusions. Otherwise this all just wastes bandwidth, and people learn incorrect information. The goal of E-Ham and Internet should be to INCREASE technical skills through mass peer review and learning, not to repeat misinformation. "
 

In view of the above and in order to "INCREASE technical skills through mass peer review and learning"  I have summarized in my posting the most important items contributing to high efficiency of mobile or shortened antennas. W8JI commented that I was  wrong about the current distribution in the antenna loading coils, where I stated:

"4. Loading coils. Should be mounted as high as possible in the antenna mast to increase the current radiating portion of the whip. Wire or tubing should be rated to carry the power without melting the coil. Q of the coil is not that important, coil in this situation is the part of the radiating element, most of the current is at the base of the coil and surprisingly Q or form factor is not THAT important as measured and verified experimentally by W9UCW. Loading coils at the base or autotuners are the worst. Bugcatchers, single coils with no shorting, spider mounts for multiple coils are very efficient."

To which W8JI replied:

"The idea current is high in only the start of a coil is not correct.
Model an antenna with EZnec, and look at the load. Model a coil in any software, and look at current. Read any textbook, even beginner's textbooks, and see what they say. Measure a real antenna yourself!

......

You are like to call names, insult people, and argue rather than take the time to learn basic electronics. This is in any book, including the ARRL Handbook. If you look at HOW an inductor works, the current flowing in one terminal ALWAYS equals the current flowing out the other terminal. "


(The rest of the exchange can be seen at eHam.net following the K0BG article at http://www.eham.net/articles/5998)


This was quite an accusation and a challenge to reality and my knowledge. This was not the first time that W8JI "challenged" me and was proved wrong. Knowing what was the reality (uneven current distribution, coil gets hotter at the bottom) and what Barry Boothe, W9UCW measured, I was curious what was the source of W8JI misinformation. I ordered 19th edition of ARRL Antenna Book and followed chain of references that led to information on page 16-7 and Fig. 9 and 10.

Looking at those two pictures, we can see that the current across the radiator was "linearized" to be a nice straight line instead of actual cosine curve. Also, Fig. 10 is missing the important cross-hatched area, the current across the coil is shown as a "nice" linear current over h2 and coil apparently has zero physical length. This passage in the Antenna Book is written by Bruce Brown, W6TWW "Optimum Design of Short Coil-Loaded High-Frequency Mobile Antennas" first published in ARRL Antenna Compendium, Volume 1, page 108.

Going back to that reference we can see on page 109 Fig.1 a current distribution on 1/4 wave radiator.

This is a true representation and shows the last 30 degrees "linearized", which is OK for simplification, but it introduces an error, which could magnify in precise calculations and modeling. 

This is expanded in Fig. 2,

The base coil is omitted, which "simplifies" or distorts the picture of real current distribution in shortened radiator with base loading coil. As we will see later, if the coil was shown, 1 A current applied at the bottom, and current measured at the top of the coil, authors would have seen the drop across the coil and current at the bottom of the radiator (top of coil) would not be 1 A, but more like shown by the shaded area in Fig. 3.

 Then we see in Fig. 3 coil inserted in the middle of 30 deg. radiator. Coil has "zero" physical length and current distribution across the coil is shown as constant and as W8JI claims. The implication is that coil magically widens the area under the current curve over the top 15 deg. Here is the cross-hatched area that is missing in the ARRL Antenna Book, which is really what is happening in the coil loaded radiator. This figure implies that current across the coil is constant and actually makes short radiator work better than the "naked" one, without the coil (proportional to the areas under the current curves). In reality, the picture should show current across the coil coming from the bottom right corner of the shaded area to the top current curve at 15 deg. or bottom of the coil.

Bruce, W6TWW, states:

"Therefore, the current exiting the top of the coil is the same as that entering the bottom of the coil. (This is true for conventional coils. However, radiation from long skinny coils allows coil current to decrease, as in helically wound antennas.) This is easily verified by installing RF ammeters immediately above and below the loading coil in a test antenna. Thus, the coil forces a much higher current into the top section than would flow in the equivalent part of a full 90-degree-high-antenna."

So here is qualifier that in long skinny coils, as in helically wound antennas, radiation allows coil current to decrease. The problem seems to be that in one case the current decreases across the coil (helical), but in "regular" loading coil that is not allowed, which is false. (Where was the measurement, verification?)

Is this really true or is it based on a previous reference? Lets follow the trail to the referenced article (by W6TWW) in 1953 QST, p. 30 by J. Belrose, VE3BLW (now VE2CV) "Short Antennas for Mobile Operation" and we see the origin of the "constant" current across the coil and the "linearized" current distribution..

   

Curves with 1, 2, 3 show various current distributions from 1 for no coil, to 3 for coil that brings the antenna to resonance. Jack in his calculations assumes that the current across the coil is constant and that seems to perpetuate all the way to the latest edition of ARRL Antenna Book. So much for the "theory". What is the reality? I repeatedly asked W8JI to measure the current in typical mobile coil loaded antenna, like in Hustler 80 m resonator. His reply was that he measured thousands of coils and he found constant current. He would not reply to this one case that represents a typical situation and is the subject of this dispute.

 

What is the truth?

It all started with discussion on the TopBand Reflector (see the archives on eHam.net for May 2003) with thread "160 m Mobile Antenna Suggestions"

http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2003-05/msg00044.html

Barry, W9UCW pointed out his findings based on real life measurements of decreasing current across the loading coils. This agreed with my "unscientific" experience, when I fried the loading coil with 600W into Hustler resonator, melting heat-shrink tubing and wire at the bottom of the coil. There was an exchange of arguments on the subject of current in the loading coils, with W8JI insisting on constant current across the coil. Unfortunately, the TopBand reflector moderator terminated W9UCW responses, so W8JI had his famous "right" last word.

Tom, W8JI on his web page http://www.w8ji.com/mobile_and_loaded_antenna.htm states:

"The modeled current distribution for 1-ampere applied at the base (in 1-foot intervals) is:

1ft= 1.0031 
2 ft= 1.0091
3ft= 1.0178
4ft= 1.0318

5ft= 1.0175
6ft= .97512
7ft= .92984
8ft = .89522

Measuring the current into and out of the loading coil with a small thermocouple RF meter, I detect no difference This is in close agreement with the model. " 

and "conclusion"...

"Clearly there is no basis to the claim current is high only in the first few turns of an inductor, or that current tapers in relationship to "electrical degrees". The most accurate way to state the effect would be to say: "When the loading coil is short and the capacitance of the antenna beyond the coil is reasonable (in this case 3000 ohms Xc or less), there is an immeasurable reduction in current in the coil."

First, there is a problem in his modeling with current increasing from the base towards the coil. That should be the flag telling him that 2 + 2 is not sometimes 4.04. Second, EZNEC has no provision for incorporating physical length of coil. It just considers LC parameters. Roy Lewallen, W7EL, author of EZNEC and Wes Stewart, N7WS recommend workarounds to replace the coil with cylinder of similar size or breaking the coil to number of physical segments with appropriate inductances. W8JI "findings and measurements" hardly reflect the reality. As someone said, one measurement is better than thousands of theories. The question is, how was W8JI measuring the current, and getting more current than it was applied at the base?

 

Barry, W9UCW among other arguments and explanations wrote:

"In our measurements, we used long and short coils and the current taper was
was almost identical if the topmast capacitance was held the same. If the
"make up" was above the coil, there was slightly less taper down of current,
due to the larger capacitance above. It would also resonate lower in freq.
It appears to us that the current decrease in the coil has most to do with
the section of the quarterwave element that it effectively replaces. The
actual decrease in our tests was always a little more than the decrease
calculated for the "replaced" section, no matter what coil was used. I hope
that answers your questions."

 

"I think your position (W8JI) is clear....that under the condx described, current
reduction in a loading coil can't, won't, never did, never will happen. My
position is that it always does, and I've measured it. Neither of these
hypotheses will  go far to satisfy the real objectives of our study."


Barry, W9UCW was kind to provide proof in the form of some measured data and photographs showing the antenna setup, loading coil and RF ammeters installed at the top and bottom of the loading coil, which could be reversed:

"Here are some actual measurements of current below and above loading coils.
 92" mast, using a HI-Q coil (openwound airdux, 2 1/2"d) with small thermocouple type meters mounted on the insulated coil support. First for 40m, moving the coil in the mast from base to center to top (with hat) and reresonating.
                                    Base    --100ma below & 66ma above
                                    Center --100ma below & 45ma above
                                    Top     --100ma below & 37ma above
 
 Then, same test but for 30m
                                    Base     --100ma below & 75ma above
                                    Center --100ma below & 60ma above
                                    Top     --100ma below & 52ma above
 
On a long, skinny 160 resonator with 25pf of top hat and whip, mounted on an 8' mast, I read 100ma below and 65ma above the coil.
 
Because of the constant claim that this must be due to the fact that the coil is so big compared to a wavelength, I measured the in and out current on a TOROIDAL loading coil used on a 20m mobile antenna. It was a 78" base mast (including spring and mount) with a 38" top whip (including 12" of alum. tubing for adjustment).
                                     Below   --100ma & Above  --79ma
When I moved the coil to the top of the mast and made a horizontal "X" top hat to resonate it back on the same freq, I got
                                      Below  --100ma & Above  --47ma
 
So, It happens even in a totally shielded loading coil with miniscule power going thru it!  Kirchoff has no laws about current being the same on both ends of inductors. His current law is about one POINT in a circuit and his voltage law is about a closed loop."

... and some significant difference W9UCW in field strength measured between the base and center loading coil:

"The actual difference in signal strength between top and base loading of a 9' antenna is about 16 db (measured) on 75m, but Tom calculates 8db on 160. That's because he assumes the same current in the coil. Actually it's worse on 160 than 75."

 

Barry's  pictures are worth a thousand words:

W9UCW's setup with radial field (60), base loaded vertical with RF thermocouple ammeters inserted at the top and bottom of the coil.

 

Here is the coil in center loaded radiator, 100 mA meters at both ends of the coil. The bottom one is showing full deflection (with power adjusted to) - 100 mA while at the same time the top ammeter is showing 45 mA as described above. The meters were mounted that way so that they could do a test and then just turn the coil assembly upside down and do another test to make sure results were the same and that no anomalies crept in. Results were always identical.

 

The reality.

So how does the real distribution of current in loaded antennas look? The answer can be found in the John Devoldere's "Bible" - "ON4UN's Low Band DXing", 3rd Edition, on page 9-34:

When I pointed out this reference to W8JI, his response was:

"I just looked at that, and you are right. John is incorrect, and I'll bring it to his attention. Thanks for pointing that out."

This is not the first time that W8JI is wrong. His typical modus operandi is first to attack and ridicule the opponent, then the exchange of arguments ensues. When he realizes he is wrong, rather than admitting, he clouds the issue with his "arguments". After staying quiet for a while, he then emerges, pretending to be the expert on the subject with corresponding postings on his web page, without giving credit to the originator. Normally this is called plagiarism. 

The Internet is a great place to publish ideas, good and wrong. In the spirit of Tom's posting on the eHam.net's purpose, I had to react to his disinformation by presenting the facts, especially when it happened more than once. 

Why is this important? Technical subjects have their laws and rules. Perpetuating wrong information doesn't serve anybody. As we can see in this example, something that was "established" 50 years ago, perpetuated through "peer reviewed" books to this day, can cause problems and wrong conclusions.

In summary:
The current in a typical loading coil in the shortened antennas drops across the coil roughly corresponding to the segment of the radiator it replaces. 

... and that's the way it IS, hardly W8JI's  -

"...there is an immeasurable reduction in current in the coil."

I hope this will help to better understand the loaded antennas, to incorporate the effect into the modeling software and to develop more efficient shortened antenna systems.  

www.K3BU.US

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on September 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
For some reason photos do not show in the article as posted on eHam.net.

To see the photos and larger last Fig. from ON4UN's book, please go to www.K3BU.US and click on Articles.

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU:

Did you think that adding the P.Eng., M.Sc. after your name and before your callsign would impress us all to the point that we just assume that you are correct?

Nah...

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU:

After reading your article once again I must conclude that you have some kind of inferiority complex. You feel the overwhelming desire to "prove" that W8JI is wrong as well as feel that you need to put some meaningless letters after your name (P.Eng., M.Sc.) to support your arguments.

If you have a problem with W8JI then, IMHO, you should fight this out privately with him and not in a public forum with the end result of only embarassing yourself.

It is obvious that you both feel the need to be "right" all the time. Both of you need to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To be clear, I would have given W8JI the same criticism if he had posted a public article like this lambasting you. I don't see any references to you in W8JI's article on his web page. Responses are a different thing. Why not just report your findings and leave the nastiness between you and W8JI out of it? If you had, the article would have been much more interesting reading and would have been much more credible. I am surprised that the article manager let this article go through.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by NORMAL on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N8VB,
After reading your 3 consecutive anal replies to K3BU, one can only conclude that you're wound a little to tight yourself. I see you're a little uncomfortable and feel compelled to lash out when you perceive a little of yourself in Mr. Yuri Blanarovich, P.Eng., M.Sc.(K3BU VE3BMV, VE1BY). Your own personal attacks against K3BU tell us a lot about you and your thought process.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
NORMAL:

Yep, it is easy to "lash out" when you remain anonymous. Using your reasoning I could conclude that you perceive a little of yourself in me and that is why your responded! Of course your theory is hogwash.

The difference is that we are arguing with each other here in the replies. I seriously doubt that you (or I) will write an article specifically to point out how wrong the other person was.

What is the point of this article? To contribute useful experimental results or to point out that Yuri was right and Tom was wrong - na na na na na na! LOL. I have seen this argument here in Eham, the topband reflector and the newsgroups for several weeks now and it is tiring. In an antenna article I want to read about antennas not about some silly argument between stubborn headed rivals. Sheesh...

Putting P.Eng., M.Sc after your name on a Ham Radio forum is a little pretentious, IMHO.

Sorry if my multiple responses have upset you. Have a nice day.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KE2IV on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I would agree that the original poster should be heartily criticized for starting with an ad hominem attack.

It is so uncivil as to be a very surprising and unusual approach to encounter on this most respectful and gentlemanly website wherin personal invective is never used nor countenanced!

[Hey, what did you say about CW!!!???]

:)

Given that, I would suggest that we all take a deep breath and see if there is anything to the theory that is the true gist this post.

I, for one, will print it out (I did get most of the pics from my browser) and try to determine if it makes sense.

If not, I would suggest that the author forward it to either CQ or QST for consideration as a lead article for their April 2004 issue. :)

73,
George
KE2IV

P.S. And, BTW, what is wrong with professional certifcations being noted and acknowledged? Are we that "dumbed down" as a society now that acheivement should be hidden lest we be scorned? Screw that kind of sh_t!

George, B.A., M.A., J.D., Extra Class ham, ARRL Life Member etc.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3FHW on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
After reading this post I still don't know how current is distributed in an antenna coil. I think the "Flat Earth Society" should be consulted to provide some clarification to this controversy. I think I would feel much more enlightened after reading their dissertation.
Fred, W3FHW

 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by L1D on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
We could do with out the "W8JI is wrong wrong wrong" childishness in your article.

Will I ever get my radiosporting refund?
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by FJGH on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It appears the "I am an expert and I will argue to the death" people out out today. What a waste of time. NOBODY CARES!

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In the spirt of being amateurs we should be open minded and look at all data and trying to piece together the best model.

Both K0BG and K3BU have put together excellent articles that helps other readers put together and understand their antenna installations. Both are to be commended.

K3BU, to start your article with the chip on your shoulder, "I'm right and your wrong" is contray to your assertion in your disagrement with W8JI. Walk the talk...

I hope this does not deter Alan, K0BG from future posts as I enjoy reading his article.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KE2IV:

"P.S. And, BTW, what is wrong with professional certifcations being noted and acknowledged? Are we that "dumbed down" as a society now that acheivement should be hidden lest we be scorned? Screw that kind of sh_t! "

There is nothing wrong with professional certifications being noted and acknowleged in general. But he isn't applying for a job here... LOL. Saying that we are "dumbed down" is itself imflammatory on your part. I am not saying that such things be hidden. Only that we don't need to have them waved in our faces as if somehow those qualifications make him an expert on the subject matter.

I just think the it is pretentious to beat everyone over the head with "qualifications" or "certified" expert nonsense on a HAM radio forum. But that is just my opinion...

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W9PMZ:

I certainly hope that K3BU and K0BG continue to post their articles on eHAM. Such information is welcome especially when the majority of articles seem to be code vs no-code. K0BG's articles are always helpful and I look forward to opening the eHAM webpage to see one of his informative articles posted. Certainly they are doing more to help by posting good articles here than we lurkers are doing by arguing in the replies. LOL. That fact does not escape me.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K5DVW on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Interesting article and situation here. While I could have done without the personalities being mentioned, I did enjoy the article and do appreciate real, technical, and theoretical information being passed to the amateur community. I see all too often erroneous information being posted and published in ham magazines. I've even seen it in QST.

While most hams just don't care, the outside perception by many engineers and scholars is that we generally don't understand what we're doing beyond a first order and we're a bunch of appliance operating hacks. I don't believe that, but when I see a lot of incorrect technical data being posted and unchallenged, it makes me understand why the perception. Heck, a large number of us can't even spell simple words it seems, so how are we to understand electromagnetics?

I also have seen first hand how some hams get downright nasty when they post incorrect data or say things that are more old tales than truth and someone tries to set them straight with facts.

And what's wrong with putting letters before or after one's name to signify a certain education level? Give me a break! I for one would more accept that someone with a degree in engineering or physics did a complete and accurate analysis of a problem like this than some guy that read it in the ARRL book and came to some conclusions. Wouldn't you? It doesn't make a person more correct, but it does tell me they might just understand it better.

Anyway, I learned something reading the article. I understand it and it made me say "Ah ha!". Something that I didn't know and something that I can use going forward and for that I appreciate that it was posted.

K5DVW
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Nice to see that Rauchian Cult followers responded with attack on my academic "attachments." I did not include them in my article, this was automatically picked up by eHam article posting machine from my profile. I have humbly removed the offending titles from my profile. Sorry if I offended anybody.

The tone of my article was dictated by public attacks and ridicule by W8JI on myself and others, when he was wrong. When it happens about fifth time, then it is time to respond, present the facts and hope that he will learn from it to be more open minded, discuss and argue the subject and give credit where is due.

Who cares (about current in the coil)? This is very important subject for those who design, work with shortened or loaded antennas, as well as those who buy "miracle" antennas. As W8JI demonstrated by making references to "peer reviewed" literature, there was 50 years of wrong information that was perpetuated all the way to ARRL Antenna Book. One single measurement, as W9UCW has shown, can verify the reality that current in the loading coil is significantly different between the top and bottom, and that matters a lot

Knowing this fact is very important when designing and optimizing loaded antennas for maximum performance. Appears that modeling programs do not consider and properly include this fact in their procedures and calculations and you get wrong results as W8JI demonstrated.

To those who believe that earth is flat, loading coils have the same current at both ends, and were insulted by my alphabet soup, I say I am sorry to disturb you.

To those who appreciate the facts and expansion of knowledge and I helped to contribute something useful to antenna design, I am glad I could help.

To eHam forum, I thank you for opportunity to publicly respond to W8JI dumping and to present the facts. I am not the only one who he does it to, but I can take only so much. Prior responses on various reflectors were usually "terminated" by administrators, when it got obvious that W8JI was wrong. Tom has lot of good ideas, done good work, helping many hams with advice, but nobody is fool proof and we all can learn a thing or two and be more polite (and still die stupid :-). If this will help him to realize the problem, than "we can all get alone" better and limit our discussions to the technical subjects without name calling and ridicule.

just plain Yuri
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3BU:

"If this will help him to realize the problem, than "we can all get alone" better and limit our discussions to the technical subjects without name calling and ridicule."

Yes maybe it will help W8JI realize the problem... but part of the problem is that you think W8JI is the only one who has a problem... go back and look at some of your responses on eHAM, the reflector and the newsgroup. You will see someone as sure that he is "correct" as W8JI is.

You should yank all the nastiness between you and W8JI out and repost your article. It did not need the other crap in it. Just report your results... argue about it afterwards. Most people would find it very interesting if they are able wade around the nonsense attacks on W8JI.

73,
N8VB

PS. Would it make you all feel better if I put PE, MSEE, and BSCS after my name? What would it have to do with anything on eHAM other than annoy someone?
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU:

"Nice to see that Rauchian Cult followers responded with attack on my academic "attachments.""

Nice to see that you are not above making attacks yourself. Are you sure W8JI and you are not long lost brothers? ;-)

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9GOC on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri -
Thanks for an interesting article.

While others have seen your references to the statements of W8JI as an attack on him, to my reading it appeared you were instead citing specific examples of your technical disagreement prior to refuting them.

Citing the points of disagreement before presenting your position has been a well-established technique in public debate for hundreds of years - - I'm sorry to see that some of my fellow hams are unacquainted with the protocol.

73,
Frederick/W9GOC
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W9GOC:

For example:

"This is not the first time that W8JI is wrong. His typical modus operandi is first to attack and ridicule the opponent, then the exchange of arguments ensues. When he realizes he is wrong, rather than admitting, he clouds the issue with his "arguments". After staying quiet for a while, he then emerges, pretending to be the expert on the subject with corresponding postings on his web page, without giving credit to the originator. Normally this is called plagiarism."

Citing points of disagreement yes. Personal attacks no.

Sorry to see that you have mistaken personal attacks for standard protocol in public debate.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
There are two issues here. The first is technical. Yuri is the one with his physics correct. Kirchoff's Current Law (also know as Teslacoil's Deviant to Fudd's First Law) requires that the flow into the inductor be equal to the flow out. In a lumped parameter network that means that the magnitude of the current at the input terminal must equal that at the output terminal. However, the loading inductor in an antenna not a lumped parameter. Some energy is radiated as E and H fields. This may be verified by both test and analysis. Ammeters on either side of the inductor will show different currents. Modeling the inductor in EZNEC as several smaller series inductors in adjacent short segments will show different currents in each inductor.

The second issue is one of style. Mudslinging has no place in polite company.

As for the alphabet soup question, I see nothing wrong with establishing one's background by citing a degree or the like. Pretend for a moment that the thread was about the physiological effects of RF energy and one of the commentators appended "MD" to his name. Would he be out of line to let us know that he's a medical doctor and speaking with that background? Many of us have particular expertise that bears on questions raised in these threads. I, for one, would like to know when someone is posting an opinion with some basis in legitimate training and experience.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
BTW, I used to be on the Editorial Board of an engineering society's journal. If you think some of these exchanges get bitter, ...
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9JCM on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Man take a chill pill. This isnt a job its a hobby. Get a life.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JHH wrote:
There are two issues here. The first is technical. Yuri is the one with his physics correct.>>>

Not really. If you look at my website

www.w8ji.com

and what I have said all along, I have always stated current will be measurably DIFFERENT if the inductor is a significant part of a wavelength long.

Radiation in the form of electromagnetic energy does NOT cause a current taper, the cause of the current taper is rooted in displacement currents which would relate to electric field strength and the amount of capacitance.

The current taper in an antenna is a function of the distributed parameters of the antenna which control he displacement current, rather than EM radiation.

In a small lumped component, like a toroid, there is no measurable current taper because there is no significant displacement current. I find it odd that the measurements reported in the article show a large taper.

Small components like linearly wound coils or chokes can have significant current variation along their length if they approach self-resonace, but I've always said that all along.

My statement is and always has been that current taper over the length of loading inductors is unimoportant and largely unmeasureable when the distributed capacitance of the inductor is close to or less than distributed capacitance above the inductor.

Working daily with RF engineering for the past 30 years, I've literally measured hundreds of systems that follow these rules. It's all just good basic science.

What the author is doing is quoting selected text out of context, and trying to alter what I said to accomplish some sort of personal attack. It would be more productive for everyone to not consider what someone ELSE says I said over what I ACTUALLY said in context. Games like that don't belong in technical forums, they belong in bars.

My objection is primarily to Yuri and Barry (W9UCW) claiming or seeming to claim coil loss and Q is insignificant in a mobile or loaded antenna due to this "current taper". The primary reason inductor loss has limited effect is that colaterial losses in grounding and the earth around the vehicle dilute the effects of inductor Q. The notion that losses are "major" only in the first few turns of a loading inductor is incorrect. It goes against both physics and common sense.

I don't mind contributing to technical discussions, or to being corrected when I am wrong. I do object to being misquoted or quoted out of context. I prefer to make my own statements about what I mean, and not have a stranger make them for me.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JHH wrote:

There are two issues here. The first is technical. Yuri is the one with his physics correct. Kirchoff's Current Law (also know as Teslacoil's Deviant to Fudd's First Law) requires that the flow into the inductor be equal to the flow out.>>>

Not really. If you read all of my posts in context, and do not assume that someone else speaks for me, you'll see I addess displacement currents and did so in models on my website. I always have done that, Yuri just chooses to not read what I say for some reason and to pull things from context.

I have models of this on my web pages at www.w8ji.com including a spice model of an inductor. Please don't take someone else's word for what I said or what they claim "I think"!!! I prefer to speak for myself.

Radiation, resistance, and magnetic flux does not cause a current taper, the displacement current does. Displacement current over the length of a small fractional wavelength loading coil that is not operated near self-resonance is minimal to the point of being immeasurable.

The real error is thinking or claiming the current taper occurs because of the wire length in a coil, and the "electrical degrees" it replaces. If you read carefully, you'll find claims a small shielded toroid with NO displacement current had significant current taper. This is impossible, and merely proves measurement methods or data presented are somehow seriously flawed.

There is no reason to rehash the same arguments, but I do feel obligated to remind everyone to read for themselves and not allow ANYONE to report what the "other person thinks". Especially when it is out-of-context snips mingled with obvious personal attacks.

73 Tom
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by FJGH on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
k3bu

I think you are really missing what is going on here.

1. Most hams on this site are not engineers and don't really understand the theory and never will. You are not considering the audience for your comments. Did you not take any technical writing coarses?

2. There are some very big egos on this site and they are pretty much nothing but nasty people who will argue forever just to hear themselves talk and put others down. They have no self esteem but try to get it by arguing.

3. Hams, in general, have very poor people skills. Hams are some of the rudest, condescending people I have ever met.

4. If you try to win arguments with an idiot, its never going to happen. Keep in mind that some people read technical books and think they are now a graduate engineer. Other people are degreed but it doesn't make them smart. An idiot is an idiot.

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KA4KOE on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Yep. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by WY3X on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. I could have read it and assimilated the information, but then I thought about a basic electronics course I took a few years ago. I do not claim to be the smartest person in the world- but have either of you considered the "basics" of electronics? In a series circuit, current measured going into the circuit will measure what comes out of the circuit. There may be voltage drops, but current does not change. The reason the coil in your antenna heats up more at one end than the other is caused by losses, which is caused by out-of-phase relationships and present as heat. The loss would (should) not affect current from one end to the other in a coil, but may affect voltage due to capacitive/inductive losses which show up as resistance. (Think of a single resistor in a series circuit...) Since an antenna is a series circuit from one end to the other, current going into a coil should equal current coming out. Right? As far as I know- this theory applies to AC and DC circuits equally. I can't think of a single series circuit that loses current or in which current cannot be measured as equal in all parts of the circuit.

On the other hand- isn't an antenna like a wire run in parallel with the ground? (I'm not speaking orientation, I'm speaking electronically.) So perhaps an antenna IS part of a parallel circuit? If so, you could have differing currents, although in the half of the circuit that is the antenna, there would STILL be the same current from one end to the other. (It would present as one leg of a series-parallel circuit.)

BEGIN TOMFOOLERY AND TROLLING:
The question remains in my mind- where is the termination point that allows current to flow? Do electrons just disappear into space from the end of the antenna? At infinite time and space, eventually, the antenna would be depleted of electrons and collapse on itself! (Stephen Hawking, where are you when we need you??? Honestly, this could never occur because you're supplying replacement electrons/holes at the antenna base... <GRIN>)

Now that I've said that- undoubtedly someone is going to try to make me look like an ass- but I'd rather just see a better, simpler explanation. There is more to life than argueing and trying to make others look stupid. So- if you have something intelligent to add.....please do so! If you want to continue bickering, please do it in private or mutter it under your breath!

-KR4WM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by KT8K on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
My question is technical (and probably shows my ignorance).
I know that voltage increases moving away from the feedpoint in an antenna, as current decreases. Quarter wavelength radiating elements have been described as developing high voltages at the end away from the feedpoint. This suggests to me that power is "relatively" constant along the antenna, with only a small reduction in that power from radiation, hysteresis, and resistance losses. I expect to see constant power levels in a closed circuit, though AC characteristics cause current and voltage to vary inversely at points in the circuit related to the frequency at which it operates.

1. Since high voltages are developed at the ends of radiators, and decreased current is expected along the length of the radiator, shouldn't current decrease be measurable in a coil which electrically simulates part of the radiator (balanced by a corresponding increase in voltage)?

2. Has anyone measured the voltage at the ends of a loading coil? If voltage is changing current should be also, and the only difference from a constant power level (and voltage-current tradeoff) would be due to radiation and resistance losses.

3. If current is constant through the coil, does that mean coils should never arc over because voltage would also be constant, such that there would be no voltage difference between the ends of the coil?

There is obviously much I don't understand about antennas, but I appreciate the opportunity to learn, and thank all of you who have contributed to my education. It makes perfect sense to me that there is no free lunch: that coils will decrease an antennas radiated power, not increase it, while increasing power losses due to resistance and hysteresis. As always, I am eager to learn.

tnx es 73 de kt8k - Tim
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by FJGH on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
kr4wm

Have you considered a pi network? If you have a pi connecting a tube plate resistance of say 3k ohm to a 50 ohm load, the current into a 50 ohm load is about 4.5 amps at 1kw. Do you really think there is 4.5 amps of rf current going into the pi from the tube plate circuit?

An antenna has many components other than a metal rod and a coil which are visible and obvious.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by KT8K on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
My question is technical (and probably shows my ignorance).
I know that voltage increases moving away from the feedpoint in an antenna, as current decreases. Quarter wavelength radiating elements have been described as developing high voltages at the end away from the feedpoint. This suggests to me that power is "relatively" constant along the antenna, with only a small reduction in that power from radiation, hysteresis, and resistance losses. I have seen antennas described as closed circuits, part of the circuit being the capacitance between the antenna and ground, or between the two legs of a dipole. I expect to see constant power levels in a closed circuit, though AC characteristics cause current and voltage to vary inversely at points in the circuit related to the frequency at which it operates.

1. Since high voltages are developed at the ends of radiators, and decreased current is expected along the length of the radiator, shouldn't current decrease (balanced by a corresponding increase in voltage) be measurable in a coil which electrically simulates part of the radiator?

2. Has anyone measured the voltage at the ends of a loading coil? If voltage is changing current should be also, and the only difference from a constant power level (and voltage-current tradeoff) would be due to radiation and resistance losses.

3. If current is constant through the coil, does that mean coils should never arc over because voltage would also be constant, such that there would be no voltage difference between the ends of the coil?

There is obviously much I don't understand about antennas, but I appreciate the opportunity to learn, and thank all of you who have contributed to my education. It makes perfect sense to me that there is no free lunch: that coils will decrease an antennas radiated power, not increase it, while increasing power losses due to resistance and hysteresis. As always, I am eager to learn.

tnx es 73 de kt8k - Tim
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Too bad there is all this personal venom floating back and forth. This is actually an interesting debate. For those of use who don't care who is right, but rather what is right, it would be nice to see the rational portion of the debate continued without all the testosterone residue. Lets stick to the facts. I believe that both Barry W9UCW and Tom W8JI have made honest good faith attempts at accurate measurement of the current distribution across loading coils in mobile antennas. Since they both can't be right, one of them probably made their measurements incorrectly or didn't properly control for some variable.

In terms of theory, I believe Tom is correct that in the absence of displacement current, the terminal current into and out of the inductor has to be equal. Current is nothing more than moving electrons. If electrons flow into the inductor, they have to go somewhere. Unless you have corona, the electrons can't just leap off the coil. If they don't flow out the other end, then where do they go? The answer is that for a current taper to be present, there has to be localized storage of these excess electrons in the inductor, which would be consistent with displacement current (this is all time varying of course). I believe this is indisputable (conservation of electrons). I think it is also indisputable that whichever observations are correct (Tom's or Barry's), they need to be consistent with Maxwell's equations which armies of scientists have yet to invalidate after over 100 years of experimental science. In lumped circuit applications, (e.g. tank coils and antenna tuners), we know that inductor Q is very important and that distributed C non-withstanding, we would NOT expect to see significant current taper in an inductor. So the question is, if we put that same physical inductor in an antenna, why would we now get a current taper? I agree with Tom that the only way this can happen is if there is sufficient capacitance between the coil body and ground such that the shunt impedance to ground is less than series impedance thru the top hat. Is there sufficient capacitance between a physically short coil and ground to give rise to a large displacement current? Or am I oversimplifying things due to my meager understanding of electromagnetics. I personally don't know for sure (there seems to be bodies of experimental evidence which support either conclusion). In any case, I can think of a lot of experiments, which could help me sort out the fact from the fiction. This is the direction we need to go. Calling people names is probably less work than doing experiments, but it won't provide any real intellectual satisfaction.

73 de Mike, W4EF

P.S. The only letters I can put after my name are B.S. so I usually don't bother :):)
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by W8JI on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Tim,

None of this is magic, but some of it is rather obscure unless you work with RF systems. Mike W4EF and W3JHH have a handle on this pretty well.

>>I know that voltage increases moving away from the feedpoint in an antenna, as current decreases. Quarter wavelength radiating elements have been described as developing high voltages at the end away from the feedpoint. This suggests to me that power is "relatively" constant along the antenna, with only a small reduction in that power from radiation, hysteresis, and resistance losses.>>

The problem also is phase angle Tim. In reactive circuits, real power is not I*E. It has to contain the phase vector between voltage and current.

But you are correct, power is high all along the antenna. We just have to be careful tying that into radiation (which is caused by acceleration of charges)and other staic fields. I explain some of this on my web site under "radiation".

>>1. Since high voltages are developed at the ends of radiators, and decreased current is expected along the length of the radiator, shouldn't current decrease (balanced by a corresponding increase in voltage) be measurable in a coil which electrically simulates part of the radiator?>>

No. An inductor, unless it is physically long compared to the rest of the antenna, acts only as a power factor correction. The inductor has current lagging voltage, which counteracts the capacitive reactance of the "short" antenna which has current leading voltage! When voltage and current are not in phase, one of them has to increase to maintain the same real power. When it is a series circuit, the voltage increases and current remains constant. When it is a parallel circuit (shunt reactances to ground) current increases and voltage decreases moving along in one direction of a distributed reactance.

This is a basic principle of matching cicuits. I'm sure it is correct becuase I have used it for years, and Maxwell and the rest even over a hundred years ago were not fools. Current will not change significantly over the length of the series coil unless the capacitance from the coil to ground is MUCH larger than the "capacitance" represented by the impedance looking into the whip above the coil.

I can tell you from experience that isn't very likely. I put a spice model of a coil on my web pages to demonstrate how little effect stray shunt C has.

>>2. Has anyone measured the voltage at the ends of a loading coil? If voltage is changing current should be also, and the only difference from a constant power level (and voltage-current tradeoff) would be due to radiation and resistance losses.>>

As explained above, and in more detail at www.w8ji.com

Of course I have measured this dozens of times, and it all works exactly like the match says it should. The general rule is unless you have an exceptionally poor coil and antenna design, or intentionally have a large long coil compared to the area above the coil, you would never measure the current taper with reasonably good gear.

It is quite easy to make incorrect measurements however, since VAR power (phase angle) is so extreme in a mobile antenna.

>>>3. If current is constant through the coil, does that mean coils should never arc over because voltage would also be constant, such that there would be no voltage difference between the ends of the coil?>>

No, because phase angle between current and voltage changes along the coil. The problem centers around the fact people incorrectly assume a loading coil "replaces" missing length. It does not.

The loading coil only "replaces" missing length when it is physically long...like a helical antenna.

Of course current is not exactly equal becuase every inductor physically has some small capacitance to ground, but the effect is really pretty small unless you have something wrong OR the inductor is approaching series (self) resonance.

Most textbooks have this correct. Especially ones that have undergone peer review. Watch out for unreviewed texts!! They can mislead you.

But these are all very simple basic rules that really cannot be broken. They are just not discussed much in our fraternity, so folklore and bad data take over.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by KB0GU on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Gentlehams;
I note with some distress the negative personal comments which are routinely exchanged on this site. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and exchange of ideas. I am saddened by the personal affronts and disparaging remarks. I wonder if I might make a request. Write the articles or replies, set them aside for a day, look at them again the next morning and clip out the personal attacks? Exchange those if you must in private correspondence and keep the content on e-ham professional. We will all be better for your efforts.
Respectfully Submitted;
Gene A. Bigham M.S.
KB0GU
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by K0BG on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
My God! All I wanted to do with respect to my original article was to explain a complex stituation in terms a newbie could understand. It was not my intent to start a vile and perverse arguement.

In due respect to Yuri and Tom, I suggest you both read the lead article (as of this date) entitled "Can't we all just get along" by yours truely.

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by VE7AZC on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I hear Jerry Springer is running short of material for his shows. I send him a copy of this thread. I'm sure you'll get a call.

H
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by K4FAU on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I'm heading back over to the Code vs NO-Code thread --its much more pleasant over there....

lol

brian
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KE6YOC on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Wow.
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K0RFD on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
As far as the technical aspects, publish them in a refereed journal instead of an internet forum. People will have more respect for the ideas. Most decent journals have "discussion" and "reply" sections where people can throw stones at each others' ideas without throwing stones at each other.

As far as the personal stuff, take it to the parking lot, boys. It just obscures the science.
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5GNB on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Sooooo............
I still fail to understand what this article has to do with the NO-CODE vs CODE issues?????
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils -  
by K3BU on October 15, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K0BG wrote:
>>My God! All I wanted to do with respect to my original article was to explain a complex stituation in terms a newbie could understand. It was not my intent to start a vile and perverse arguement. <<


Alan,
You started it all with your article about "perfect" mobile antenna, which had some holes in it. W8JI made some comments and sharp remarks, I made some comments, after which I was challenged to write what is important to efficient mobile antennas. I wrote few points, after which W8JI attacked me (where were the "policemen" to chastise him for personal attacks?). I presented facts, asked some questions. W8JI then engaged in tirades and twisting facts and words. I am not going to engage any more in verbal exchanges, he ignores the FACTS and defends his "knowledge" with mumbo-jumbo aimed at confusing average reader. You can theorize all you want if the FACTS are there to prove otherwise, anyone can make the measurements and see who is right. You can see W9UCW photos at http://www.k3bu.us/loadingcoils.htm and his one picture is worth 1000 "theories". Unfortunately, for some reason those photos did not show on eHam posting.

Those who read and understand the arguments presented can make up their own mind. Those wishing to worship flat earth "theories" are free to do so. It just puts us Hams in a bad light and judging by further "responses" by W8JI, he is beyond "repair."

Those who realize what is happening with the current in loading coils can take advantage of it and improve efficiency of their mobile and shortened antennas. It was satisfying to see some positive responses from knowledgeable readers and I thank you for them, I hope I helped to correct some misconceptions and to understand how the current in loading coils behaves. Many thanks to Barry, W9UCW for sharing the data, pictures, comments and support.

Yuri, K3BU/m
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KD5UJX on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Does the damn thing radiate better at the top or the middle or the bottom? When the dust clears, let me know.

My Dear Ol' Dad always said "Never get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man"
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU:

You are still missing the point, I'm afraid.

"You started it all with your article about "perfect" mobile antenna, which had some holes in it. W8JI made some comments and sharp remarks, I made some comments, after which I was challenged to write what is important to efficient mobile antennas. I wrote few points, after which W8JI attacked me (where were the
policemen" to chastise him for personal attacks?)."

The difference is that you were arguing with each other in the replies to an article. You personally attacked W8JI in your article which seriously detracted from your findings. You are being chatised for putting such remarks in a technical article where they did not belong.

"I presented facts, asked some questions. W8JI then engaged in tirades and twisting facts and words."

There was much twisting on your part also. Go back and read some of your responses - if W8JI has made tirades then you certainly have too. We are all guilty of it but you seem not to be able to admit it.

"I am not going to engage any more in verbal exchanges, he ignores the FACTS and defends his "knowledge" with mumbo-jumbo aimed at confusing average reader."

You just did. So much for your promise. In W8JI's above response I see no name calling and nastiness that you have engaged in here.

"It just puts us Hams in a bad light and judging by further "responses" by W8JI, he is beyond "repair."
"

By this comment so are you, obviously...

Have a nice day.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU wrote >>The question is, how was W8JI measuring the current, and getting more current than it was applied at the base? >>

There was a slight (~3%) inverse taper in Tom's EZNEC modeling results. This can easily happen if you set the inductive reactance of the loading coil too high. I just built a EZNEC model of a 10' high center loaded vertical for 160 meters. I adjusted the coil inductance manually for a zero reactance input impedance (e.g. resonance). Initially, I guessed a little high with the inductor setting and got a similar (actual more severe) inverse taper. Essentially my initial "cut" had an electrical length greater than 90 degrees. At first I thought the same thing as you - "how can this be??". Then I looked at the input impedance a noticed that it was inductive. I thought of Homer Simpson - "Dooh!!"

Interestingly enough in my modeling exercise, I got a taper similar to those shown in your article from the ARRL handbook which I guess are originally from Bruce W6TWW (figure 10). When I broke the coil up into 4 discrete pieces spaced 6" apart, the results were about the same. Placing the coil in the center results in nearly constant current below the coil with a more radical taper above the coil.

73 de Mike, W4EF...............................
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Mike and all,

That's right, it is VERY possible to have current peak at the base of the loading coil, and decrease as you move towards the feedpoint even when at minimum SWR.

This is very true if the mast is near sheetmetal of a vehicle.

As you say, breaking the inductor into seperate model segments does not greatly increase current taper across the coil.

I'd implore everyone to read what I actually said all along, not to read what anyone else claims what I said!

I was careful to make sure everything agrees with electrical rules, I always do this when I measure anything difficult to measure or model as a cross-check.

The only thing that actually violates electrical rules is a large taper in current across a short coil, and high current in the first few turns. The exception to that would be if capacitance from the inner areas of the coil to the chassis of the vehicle was overwhelming large compared to the impedance looking from that point in the coil upwards towards the whip.

This would, of course, indicate a very poor loading coil design or antenna construction since NONE of that current increase would be necessary for normal operation of the anetenna and would not contribute to desired radiation. The second thing a large current taper would indicate is a coil near self-resonance, but again that would be a very poor antenna design with much higher than normal losses. The last cause would be improper or inaccurate measurements.

Unlike some have claimed, Eznec and Spice models MUST calculate currents accurately or the results are grossly wrong. While antenna models have limits where accuracy fails, you just have to read the manuals and stay outside those limits. It is actually MUCH more difficult to read currents accurately in a real antenna than most of us would imagine, because of the high power factor and strong fields around the measurement device(s), so I don't think anyone is intentionally making innacurate measurements.

One strong alarm though is where a claim is made that measured current through a small "non-radiating" toroidal inductor changes a good bit from terminal to terminal. That should raise a red warning flag for anyone because it violates several rules we use and have used for many years!!

Again I hope every reads what I post (which most of which is on my webpages at www.w8ji.com, NOT what others say I post. Especially when the posts imply this is something personal or that I am "in the mud fighting". This is all technical, and is very important for people who really want to know how a short or loaded antenna actually works.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
OK Tom,

Ohms Law and Kirchoffs Law are still correct. And the assumptions are that the length of the inductor is much less than a wavelength.

But, I am still puzzeled by the "picture" on K3BUs web site that shows 100mA going into the inductor and 45mA coming out of the inductor. What do you think has happened here?

73,

Carl - W9PMZ (BSEE, MSEE and Jr.)
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:

"Again I hope every reads what I post (which most of which is on my webpages at www.w8ji.com, NOT what others say I post. Especially when the posts imply this is something personal or that I am "in the mud fighting". This is all technical, and is very important for people who really want to know how a short or loaded antenna actually works."

I have been following your and K3BU's exchanges since they started under Alan's mobile antenna article. It is apparent, as anyone will see by reading the responses for themselves, that you were pointing out your disagreement and corrections to K3BU's "theories" in what I thought was a well reasoned, decent, and respectful way. K3BU was the first and only one to use words like "idiot" or "mumbo-jumbo" and continues to make personal attacks when a disagreement is pointed out. It is obvious that he cannot accept being questioned on his "facts" then lacking the supporting technical and scientific knowledge he is quick to resort to insults. After reading his rebuttals I cannot rely on any of the possibly useful information he reports because the noise level is S9+40 in his responses.

K3BU wrote in one of his responses: "Real man admits mistake, and real, real man would even apologize for being wrong and thank for getting straightened out."

Using his reasoning I would question whether K3BU is a "Real man"... Unfortunately he cannot possibly conceive the idea that he might just be wrong.

73,
N8VB

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
>>Ohms Law and Kirchoffs Law are still correct. And the assumptions are that the length of the inductor is much less than a wavelength. But, I am still puzzeled by the "picture" on K3BUs web site that shows 100mA going into the inductor and 45mA coming out of the inductor. What do you think has happened here?>>

Hi Carl,

Well we know Kirchoff and Ohm are correct! I think most experienced people would agree that the current in one terminal MUST equal the current out the other, except for current changes caused by a third path. That's just the way electrons behave!

Now of course there always is a third path, but with reasonable form factors it also is VERY high impedance compared to the antenna above the coil. Even if distributed capacitance is low above the coil and high in the coil, current still won't extremely different unless the coil is near self-series resoance.

I would always assume the data is not altered. I have only seen that a very few times in my life, so we can disgard that problem in 99% of the cases.

The only remaining answer is the coil may actually be near self-resonance, which means there is extremely high reactance above the coil (almost no whip or hat)OR it is in a second mode of resonance where XL is starting to decrease again from far too much coil.

We also don't really know much about the test setup, the behavior of the meters used, or their effect on the system.

Remember the extreme voltage differences from the bottom to top of the coil, and the size of the meters themselves. Those are NOT small meters, and their capacitance would not be trivial compared to the reactances in the rest of the system when those reactances are high.

I've found most disagreements with good known working theory center around HOW things are observed or in the equipment used. I've measured hundreds and hundreds of systems, and never found Kirchoff or Ohm or any of the others to be incorrect, so it must be something in the test!! I doubt anyone, even if emotional about the issue, would lie.

The red flag for me is the statement in the article text that curtrent into and out of a small toroid with no "field leakage" was measurably unequal. We all know can't be correct, so it must be the equipment or how it is used.

What do you think?

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Tom for the response, points taken.

I have been a test engineer now for 22 years, writing test programs for avionics and cellular base station radios.

An observation has been made by W9UCW (that it seems that K3BU bases his technical arguements on), ala 100mA going in and 45mA coming out. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view point) it agrees with the model that K3BU / W9UCW et. al. have asserted. But it doesn't agree well with what we know about Ohms Law and Kirchoffs Law.

So my test engineer instinct kicks in, having made in the past mistakes on measuring data, what could have gone wrong in W9UCWs measurements...............

If there is anything that I have learned over the years; when you get an answer it always helps to understand if the answer is reasonable, does it fit what we expect, is the measurement technique adequate and does the measurement obey known physical laws.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The golden rule here to remember about electrical theory in practice, is the fact that it is generally referred to as "theory."

KC8VWM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K0BG on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To Carl and Tom. It seems Occam (actually William of Ockham) was correct.

One thing is for sure, if I would have known how much press (good or bad) my original article was going to generate, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place. Nonetheless, I've learned from it more than I put into it with thanks to you both.

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The key to understanding what is going on with respect to inductor current graident is the difference between a lumped parameter component and a distributed parameter component. When capacitors or inductors are designed, the usual assumption is that they will be used over a range of frequencies low enough that the longest dimension of the component is very small compared to a wavelength at the highest frequency. If that assumption is violated, then different design rules apply because the E or H fields in the components will not be linear. In the case of a long inductor in an antenna system, some of the energy will be radiated as the part becomes long enough to be an antenna radiating element itself.

I did a quick and dirty EZNEC model of a 2.1-m tall ground plane antenna for 15 m. For the first pass, it was center loaded with an inductor that was 100 mm long. I divided the inductor into 5 series elements to be able to see what current tapering occured. For the second pass, the center loading inductor was 1.2 m long and divided into 11 series elements. The mechanical length of the first inductor is equivalent to about 0.7 % of a wavelength. The second inductor is about 8 % of a wavelength long.

The current tapering in first inductor was

.933
.928
.920
.909
.895

which is about what would occur over a piece of straight wire.

The current tapering in the second inductor was

.993
.979
.955
.921
.973
.826
.767
.700
.626
.545
.459

which is greater than one might expect in a straight piece of wire but within the margin of error for the modeling. EZNEC has some difficulty dealing with very small segments.

If an antenna loading inductor (or capacitor) is small compared to a wavelength then the current (or potential) gradient across can be ignored. As the part grows in length, it will become a significant radiating element. When this happens, significant gradients will appear.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Carl, W9PMZ writes:

>>So my test engineer instinct kicks in, having made in the past mistakes on measuring data, what could have gone wrong in W9UCWs measurements......<<

Very simple, let's see other people measure the current, let them show the proper way of measuring if W9UCW way, or thermal heating of uniform solenoid is wrong. Show us the data, pictures and where we are wrong. I repeatedly asked W8JI to measure current in 80m Hustler (or his) resonator and tell us what it is. So far no show. He claims he measured thousands of coils, we want to see the results, data, pictures of one measurement on loaded antenna and show us where W9UCW went wrong. Very simple, and N8VB can assist him instead of unloading his "literary" talent here.

The whole argument seems to be centered about "the (wrong?) theory" is right - actual measurements and FACTS are wrong. Barry's pictures show that we are not talking about "screwy" measurement setup, with weird cars, long coils, wrong meters, etc. as Tom is trying to assert. He used almost ideal ground plane radial field, "normal" coils, and physically small thermocouple meters.

This reminds me the old frog joke: when you tear one leg off the frog and say "jump," frog jumps..... when you tear off the last leg and say "jump," frog doesn't jump. The "conclusion" is: the frog is deaf.

Talk is cheap, lets see where W9UCW measurements and pictures went wrong, saying that he "must" be wrong doesn't cut it, regardless how much mumbo-jumbo is written. BTW, Barry is preparing publication on this subject for IEEE, which hopefully will be peer reviewed. Maybe she's not flat after all!

Yuri
ex IBM test engineer
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I tried modeling in EZNEC a 5 meter long vertical on 80 meters with a center loading coil with length 0.5 meters. The center loading coil was a length of wire 0.5 meters long with distibuted loads placed at 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% on its length. The coil section was 5 segments since NEC has problems with anything greater for such a small (0.5 meter) wire at 3.5 Mhz.

This is the current distribution in the simulated coil section for a source curent of 0.100 A:

.09929
.09848
.09672
.09404
.09045

Which is what I would have expected. Playing around with EZNEC I was not able to get a current taper greater than 10% no matter the wire diameter or number of segments as long as the length of the coil section was small compared to the length of the top and bottom sections.

The description in Yuri's article of the thermocouple ammeters and coil setup is not really clear. It would be nice to know more detailed parameters of the setup there.

I agree with the other responses that it is probably measurement error introducing the large current taper results. I am very dubious of the claim that in the toriodal case there was such a current difference. My feeling is that additional testing and verification would reveal a measurement error especially in that case. A toriod is approaching a zero length inductor as modeled by NEC so the currents in and out should be the same unless we invent some new kind of physics (like in the case of the EH reality vs. EH claims) or when the author invokes the "flat earth" theory. We would expect more current taper as the length of the coil became longer (this is shown by modeling in EZNEC) because the coil is becoming an increasing part of the radiating structure. But for the toroid, nope.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU:

"Show us the data, pictures and where we are wrong."

In a few days I will have all the equipment together to try to duplicate the experiment. Is it possible to get more detailed info on Barry's setup? It is not really clear in your article. This is all very interesting. I am particularly interested in the toriod case.

I have not made the conclusion that you are wrong... I just take issue with the way you have chosen to present the information (all the nastiness).

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Kirchoff's Current Law actually states is that the integral of current density over any volume of space is zero. If the current at the input terminal of an inductor is x and the output current is some lesser value y, then there must be some additional output path supporting the current x-y. Otherwise, the integral of the current density over the volume of space occupied by the inductor would have some positive (and, hence, non-zero) value.

A current drop of roughly 2:1 is being reported. I can understand how that might occur with an inductor radiating as an antenna. I can't visualize how that would happen with any practical toroid.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks everyone for keeping this technical. It is a worthy topic.

One poster made a comment that "that's why they call it theory".

Actually it is a common misconception that "theory" means "guess". Theories in the case of science are actually very rigid well-established rules. If it doesn't follow established theory, it is virtually 100% certain you are doing something wrong.

I'd like to throw this out for consideration. My statement is that current can only taper significantly if a "third" path exists outside the two terminals of a component. While the author quotes W9UCW as saying Kirchoff's Law can't be applied or isn't valid, I think this is a valid application. I've never know anyone to prove Kirchoff wrong.

The current flowing in must equal sum of currents out. The only way to reduce current at one terminal is if the component has a substantial second path (through displacement currents).

The conditions where this effect would occur are if the inductor is:

1.) physically long compared to a wavelength

2.) at or approaching self-resonance

3.) near something that greatly increases capacitance

4.) has almost no capacitance above it (same as 2)

5.) There is a measurement error

Can anyone think of an additional reason or see a flaw in any of that logic?

All of the above, except for 5, mean the system has large unnecessary efficiency shortfalls.

Back to lunch.
73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
A German colleague (Dr. Prof. Ing. Karl Bader) once remarked, "When theory and practice disagree, practice must obviously be in error." What the good doctor meant was that there are some elements of "theory" that we now treat as laws, such as Newton's Laws of Motion, Ohm's Law, The Laws of Thermodynamics, and Kirchoff's Laws, and that when we get results that seem to violate these principles, we'd better stop and make sure we understand what we're really doing.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
One must always suspect measurement error when his results are in opposition with accepted theory. One experiment is not enough to disprove accepted theory. Measurement error is one of the reasons that the Pons and Fleishman fiasco in Cold Fusion happened. After experiment after experiment was done, the general consensus was that measurement error was the factor in all of the positive results. If there were anything to Cold Fusion* we would all have Cold Fusion power plants in our homes and cars by now. Unless you believe in conspiracy theories...

73,
N8VB

* I am talking about Pons and Fleishman test tube type fusion, not the work done by Steven Jones in Muon-catalyzed (Lukewarm) Fusion.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I made the following comment,

The golden rule here to remember about electrical theory in practice, is the fact that it is generally referred to as "theory."

W8JI says,
<<<One poster made a comment that "that's why they call it theory".

Actually it is a common misconception that "theory" means "guess". Theories in the case of science are actually very rigid well-established rules. If it doesn't follow established theory, it is virtually 100% certain you are doing something wrong.>>>


My comments,

It is also a common misconception that theories in science are always regarded as rigid or well established accepted standards of practice.

There are many good examples of bad science, misconceptions(dogma)being accepted and taught as the de facto standard in society today for example;

Electronics teachers and authors of textbooks are often chided for passing on an "error" to their students. Teachers promote idea that electric current is a flow of positive particles in one direction, when it really is a flow of negative electrons going the other way.

In fact, the chiders are themselves mistaken. They're laboring under the misconception that "electricity" is invariably made of negatively-charged particles called electrons. This is wrong. It also leads people to wrongly conclude that electric currents are really a flow of negative particles. Actually, in many situations, electric currents can really be a flow of positive particles. In other situations the flows are negative particles. And sometimes they're both positive and negative flowing at once, but in opposite directions. The true direction of the flowing particles depends on the type of conductor.

73,

KC8VWM







 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

>>It is also a common misconception that theories in science are always regarded as rigid or well established accepted standards of practice.
There are many good examples of bad science, misconceptions(dogma)being accepted and taught as the de facto standard in society today for example;<<

But we are talking about Ohm's Law, Kirchhoff's first and second rule, Faraday's Law, Maxwell's Equations, and so on. The rule we follow are from peer reviewed and tested verification by countless applications, not misinformation by people in a position where they say anything they like and have to know just a little bit about everything.

I don't think you'll find many experienced people who think that it's really just Ohm's suggestion or Kirchoff's whim or Maxwell's approximations.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
By the way, I wasn't sure about starting this but one of the articles errors occurs in the section where the current diagrams from books were extracted. The author of this article claims:

<<<<<<<<<<
Looking at those two pictures, we can see that the current across the radiator was "linearized" to be a nice straight line instead of actual cosine curve. Also, Fig. 10 is missing the important cross-hatched area, the current across the coil is shown as a "nice" linear current over h2 and coil apparently has zero physical length.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The fact current is a triangular distribution in a short radiator above the loading is well established. That wasn't an error in the drawing or "lineralized, it is how current actually is distributed. The sine shape comes from time delay in reflection from the far(open) end where the antenna terminates in an open. This reflection is also what causes current to be maximum 1/4 wl away!!!

Without significant length in fractions of a wavelength the shape becomes triangular. It does so because the phase angle of the reflection has no time to enter the picture, so the current distribution is controlled by distributed inductance and capacitance.

It is distributed parameters like shunt capacitance and series inductance that cause current to taper in an antenna, not radiation. The end reflection and the standing wave it creates give it a sine shape. Terminate the end, and current is linear!

Any very short antenna with uniform cross section has triangular or near tringular current above the loading coil, and nearly flat distribution below the load.

It is that very current distribution that causes the radiation resistance of a base loaded short antenna to be 1/4 that of a top loaded antenna of the same height.

In the real world we don't quite make perfect 4X radiation resistance increase when going from base to top loading, but we can get darned close. The reason is radiation is all related to current by ampere-feet, and with a triangular distribution the current integated over length is 1/2 of the maximum. With 100% top loading, current is uniform and maximum so ampere/feet is twice as large. The antenna is effectively the same as one twice as tall, so radiation resistance is 4 times higher.

This is why it is so important to put a hat up at the very top in a short antenna, and why people who do that win mobile shootouts even with modest loading coils.

73 Tom

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 16, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Tom said,

<<<<I don't think you'll find many experienced people who think that it's really just Ohm's suggestion or Kirchoff's whim or Maxwell's approximations.>>>

Comments:

I appreciate your statement, however I was pointing out that first, there are statements that are just scientifically wrong.

Secondly, if we follow what is wrong in determining our baseline factors, then the final result will reflect this as error.

Kirchoff based his information on "known" laws of applied sciences at the time. It would then be equally important to further examine if any of Kirchoff's work was based on for example, Newton's theory of energy at that time. As a result, Kirchoff may have made errors in his statements.

Newton's first law is stated incorrectly as follows:
"An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force."

It should say, "will remain in motion at constant velocity."

This is a very serious error if any of Kirchoff's work was based on any "potential" influences of electromotive forces in his theoretical determinations.

Another Newton misconception is “Friction works in the opposite direction to the force of motion.”

There is no such thing as a force of motion.

Kirchoff's first rule accounts for the behavior of how current flows through an electrical circuit with a single or multiple path. It is based in part on the Ohm's Law.

Recently, Ohms law itself has been found to be in error as a method of power measurement.

See for yourself.
http://www.aethmogen.com/pubs/app2001/23olaw/01txt.shtml

73

KC8VWM






 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

Don't waste your time. The website referenced above is another one of those UFO/Free Energy/Pseudoscience websites.

From the website:
"Dr. Adams (Honorary Doctor), inventor of the "Adams Super Power Thermo Impulse Salient Pole Open Magnetic Circuit Reluctance Electric Motor/Generator" and "Aether energy" technology."

He also claims that fluorescent lights generate gamma rays and cosmic rays! LOL!

GIVE US A FREAKIN BREAK!

I hope KC8VWM is just having a little fun. If he thinks Ohms Law has been proven wrong by anything on that website then... hmmm... I don't know what to say!

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

Don't you find it strange that Adams makes the claim the Ohms Law does not apply to measuring the power consumption/output of his generator only after his motor was tested and shown to produce no excess power? Very convienient.

Of course, I may be one of those CIA agents who Adams claims to have been harassed by in the past... Spooooky!

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
On the UFO web site as referenced above, it stated,

"Realistically, since calorimetric measurements have been proven to be the only accurate and reliable means of proving unity and power measurement, then orthodox electrical instrumentation has become dispensible (sic) is new era of technology."

They are at least correct on this count. And it is very pertinent in RF measurement due to the errors introduced in normal diode detectors. For signals with high peak to average ratios it is normal to use thermal sensors. Diode sensors can be used but they must be compensated very carefully.

Another often-missed term in power measurement that can lead to an incorrect answer in these measurements is uncertainty. Uncertainty is not accuracy; they are independent of each other.

With regard to Ohms Law being proved wrong, I wonder if he really used Ohms Law; J = oE (how do you make Greek characters here???), or, current density = conductivity times the electric field. I don't ever recall this being wrong.....

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Calorimetric measurements are sometimes very tricky to do without error. Errors in calorimetry was one of the contributing factors in the Pons and Fleishman Cold Fusion debacle.

Adams claims that one can only use calorimetric measurements to verify the energy production of his motor/generator not Ohms Law, conveniently.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The website was not actually a UFO website. I just lumped websites covering UFO technology, Free Energy, and pseudoscience all together.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, I was thinking. Tom points out that radiation resistance is related to the integral of the current distribution along the radiator. I am wondering if there would be enough difference in the expected radiation resistance of the antenna given a minimal current taper thru the inductor vs. the more radical current taper observed by Barry such that the differences in expected radiation resistance for the two cases would be readily discerable via measurement? In other words, is there enough resolution in the radiation resistance measurement that it could be used to prove one distribution versus the other?

73 de Mike, W4EF..........................
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I ran an EZNEC model of a 92-in whip with a loading coil at the base, the center, and the top to see how it would compare with the results reported above. The whip was operated over a set of four 1/4-wave radials. It was resonated with the coil at the base. As the coil was moved up the whip, a top hat was added and adjusted for resonance.

Coil at bottom
I in 100 mA
I out 98.9 mA

Coil at middle
I in 100 mA
I out 98.8 mA

Coil at top
I in 100 mA
i out 99.2 mA

Because of the improvement in current distribution resulting from moving the coil up the antenna, there was a significant variation in antenna efficiency.

Relative Efficiency
Base Loaded 0 dB
Center Loaded +5 dB
Top Loaded +5.6 dB

Here's a suggestion on measuring the relative magnitudes of the current on either side of the inductor. Build a pair of current transformers (such as used in an SWR bridge) and place one over the antenna on each side of the inductor. Connect their outputs to an oscilloscope. The absolute readings on the scope will not be calibrated, but the relative magnitudes should be accurate.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JJH:

The current transformer approach is what I was going to try as well as locating two thermocouple ammeters.

Will post the results when I get them...

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Forum posting rules:

1)Remember, the earth is flat...

2)Always obey the so called laws of science or you will make other people think too much.

3) Never challenge the validity of those laws with ham operators or else you will be judged in the same category as UFO fanatics.

4) Always believe everything you read in textbooks and follow the rest of the cattle.

5) Always try to limit your knowledge about electrical theory and never try to think out of the box.

6) Always make sure that you never validate any other parts of a posted message, only concentrate on the more controversial information and disqualify everything else said in a posting based solely on that information.

7) Never try to have an intelligent discussion in an open forum. Always keep a closed mind.

KC8VWM



 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Never believe anything you read on a Free Energy Website. Never open a physics textbook... blah blah blah

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

Why aren't all our houses and cars now powered by Adams motor/generator? Can you tell us that?

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Why aren't all our houses and cars now powered by solar or wind energy? Can you answer that?

KC8VWM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It has been said,

"Why aren't all our houses and cars now powered by solar or wind energy? Can you answer that?"

It's obvious, it's those damn CC&Rs..............

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To quote Lt. Cmdr. Montgomery Scott: "Ye canna change the laws of physics!"

I started out my career in the audio industry and spent a great deal of time in the loudspeaker business. Loudspeakers may be the only electrical device less well understood by most engineers than antennas. One of my friends in the business (Paul Klipsch) always wore on the inside of his jacket lapel a bright yellow button with the word "Bullshit" on it. Whenever he was presented with another nonsensical design from someone who had discovered some "new" physical principle, he would simply open his coat to flash the button.

When I was running engineering at at one company, I was offered several different loudspeaker designs that (had they really worked) would have violated the First Law of Thermodynamics. Ho, hum, another major breakthrough!

The idea that Kirchoff's Law do not apply to antennas is errant nonsense. Kirchoff's Current Law follows directly from the principle that energy must be conserved. If the integral of current density over a volume is non-zero, then energy is either disappearing or being created. The first instance would imply the presence of something like a black hole. The second would require spontaneous generation of energy (perhaps from a white hole).
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

I can tell you why we are using solar cells to power our homes. Cost and efficiency.

If my house were oriented for maximum solar collection and if all the trees on that side of the house were cut down and if the entire roof on the south side of the house were covered with a good solar array, that array would deliver an average output of about 40 kW-h per day at a cost of about $20k for the array. That doesn't include the cost of the inverters to make the DC into AC or storage batteries for use at night or during bad weather.

40 kW-h per day is a lot less power than my household presently uses, and at BG&E's electric rates my mortgage would be paid off well before the payback on the capital investment in solar power.

BTW, I have some experience with solar power. For the last few years I've been designing satellite power systems.

73 de W3JJH
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on October 17, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JJH writes:
>>Here's a suggestion on measuring the relative magnitudes of the current on either side of the inductor. Build a pair of current transformers (such as used in an SWR bridge) and place one over the antenna on each side of the inductor. Connect their outputs to an oscilloscope. <<

No can do! This will detune the antenna and give useless results. You could use current transformers if you would have small meter attached right at it.

You need to use small thermocouple ammeters and look at them from the distance via binoculars, just like W9UCW pictures show. Or use one meter and flip the coil around, which could be even better, without "accusing" the other meter of affecting/throwing the results off.

Yuri
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU wrote:
>>>No can do! This will detune the antenna and give useless results. You could use current transformers if you would have small meter attached right at it. >>>

I agree with Yuri. The method that W9UCW used had the right idea - minimize disturbance to the system and minimize sensitivity to the electric field. On the first count, I think he had it right (e.g. small meters, no external wires). The question is, was his method good enough to control for electric field effects. I believe Tom's contention is that despite his best efforts to measure current only, the technique Barry used had some sensitivity to the local electric field which we could expect to vary along the length of the coil. This begs the question, however, what did Tom do differently in his measurements such that we should believe his results over Barry's? I believe Tom claims to have made a large number current measurements where he always saw minimal current taper. If this is the case, what is really at issue here is what is the exact nature of the differences between Tom's and Barry's current measurement techniques. Any third party attempt to replicate these measurements should focus carefully on the current sensors. Perhaps N8VB can measure his test antenna both ways, first with a sensor identical to Barry's, and then with one identical to Tom's. Anyway, this is where I would put my magnifying glass, and where peer review should concentrate.

73 de Mike, W4EF...................................
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

Solar and wind power do not violate any physical law. A motor/generator that extracts energy from the vacuum of space is science fiction.

To answer your question: It is a matter of practicality. In some places the Sun doesn't shine much and the wind doesn't blow much in other places. The cost of the storage system for either source is high. Is the typical home owner going to know how to or put up with the maintenance requirements of the storage system? As long as electical power purchased from the local power company is cheaper than solar or wind no on is going to even think about making a change except for those who like the novelty of it. Those are just some of the reasons.

Regarding your comments about "so called laws of science" - those laws have served us pretty well wouldn't you agree - the technology around us today is the result of applying those laws. Where are all the advances from the Free Energy (Zero Point, Vacuum, UFO...) crowd? Funny that the only thing they seem to accomplish is ripping off their investors and yaking endlessly about their nutty ideas on wacko websites.

If you want to continue to live in fantasy land, then...

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JJH:

"Here's a suggestion on measuring the relative magnitudes of the current on either side of the inductor. Build a pair of current transformers (such as used in an SWR bridge) and place one over the antenna on each side of the inductor. Connect their outputs to an oscilloscope."

To clarify, until a borrowed pair thermocouple ammeters arrive I plan to build a pair of self contained current transformers with the circuitry in small enclosures with microammeters for display. I want to make the sensors as small as possible to minimize disturbances as others have mentioned. I would worried about the disturbance to the setup that running wires to an o-scope would cause as you suggest.

I like the idea of using a sensor on both sides of the coil so that you can turn the coil upside down to check for symmetry like Barry did. I also thought of using a current xfmr - op amp - V/F converter - LM386 amp to 1" dia speaker setup in a self contained enclosure so that you could just hear the difference between tones at a distance. I thought about being able to measure it remotely by feeding the signal picked up by a microphone and amp/filter into my digital scope if the environment is reasonably quiet (maybe a Sunday morning).

If anyone thinks this is a bad idea I will just wait until the thermocouple ammeters arrive.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by WC4SKY on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
to KE2IV

I love a post thar starts with:

"It is so uncivil as to be a very surprising and unusual approach to encounter on this most respectful and gentlemanly website wherin personal invective is never used nor countenanced!"

And ends with:

"Screw that kind of sh_t!"


 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9TM on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What is all this chatter about "Current in Antenna Loading Coils" when the purpose of this forum is to have emotional arguments over the code/no-code debate? Please, let's stay on subject gentlemen.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EWJ on October 18, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
CW is the best mode for communications....all the
others are just subsets. Anybody can speak into a
mike but it takes real skill to be a good CW
operator.

Earle
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K0BG on October 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Earle, if it takes real skill to be a CW operator, then why are there so many bad fists on the air?

Alan, KØBG
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
One technical comment and a few words of caution fellows:

First, EM radiation has NOTHING to do with the current taper. It is distributed impedances at work and distances to a point of wave reflection at work.

Consider a small loop antenna. The current is nearly perfectly uniform yet the antenna radiates all along it's length. That's true even when it is several feet in diameter, or twenty feet in length (circ).

Consider a short hat-loaded vertical with a large hat, same thing.

It is the ratio of shunt impedance for displacement currents compared to series impedance at that point that sets the current taper, or the distance to a sharp boundary where the radiator terminates.

The reason a small toroid or small coil could have current taper relates only to those two things. Both tie into the physical size of the coil, where it is mounted, and the impedance beyond that point.

Second, you are measuring in an intense electric and magnetic field. I don't think you will be successful with magnetically coupled devices, or anything sensitive to electric fields.

Turning the coil over doesn't do a thing electrically, if the coil is symmetrical. The real test for false readings from stray coupling would be to short the meter terminals and look for zero, remove the meters and see if resonance changed, and reverse the meter terminals and see if readings changed.

This isn't a casual experiment. Even with my well-equipped labe measurements like this generally require special measurement fixtures. You will be sticking a meter in a system with many kilowatts of VAR power and extreme voltage variations from the top of the coil to the bottom, even when the transmitter is running fairly low power.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N8VB,

<<<< Where are all the advances from the Free Energy (Zero Point, Vacuum, UFO...) crowd? Funny that the only thing they seem to accomplish is ripping off their investors and yaking endlessly about their nutty ideas on wacko websites.

If you want to continue to live in fantasy land, then...

N8VB >>>

N8VB,

I have no further comments for this debate, nor do I wish to engage in any further debate with you on this matter.

73

KC8VWM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EWJ on October 19, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
ALAN

Beats me...guess because they dont have real skill
yet. Takes time...lots of it...practice...dedication...
desire...

Funny I dont hear many BAD fists...just folks trying
in their own way.

Wanna hear a bad fist? Take a lsn on 8269khz nightly
around 0150gmt especially 0200gmt...now that guy
has a bad fist...but my guess is that the people he
is communicating with can understand him perfectly
and he knows exactly what he is doing...he is a pro.
BUT being a pro does not mean you are good...just
effective.

I was just trying to stir the pot Alan...after W9TM
previous to my post.

Earle
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
if we follow what is wrong in determining our baseline factors, then the final result will reflect this as error.

Kirchoff based his information on "known" laws of applied sciences at the time. It would then be equally important to further examine if any of Kirchoff's work was based on for example, Newton's theory of energy at that time. As a result, Kirchoff may have made errors in his statements.


Newton's first law is stated incorrectly as follows:
"An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force."

It should say, "will remain in motion at constant velocity."

This is a very serious error if any of Kirchoff's work was based on any "potential" influences of electromotive forces in his theoretical determinations.

Another Newton misconception is “Friction works in the opposite direction to the force of motion.”

There is no such thing as a force of motion.


This, I'm afraid has nothing to do with UFO's or other twisted connotations derived from N8VB's sense of logic.


KC8VWM


KC8VWM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

"This, I'm afraid has nothing to do with UFO's or other twisted connotations derived from N8VB's sense of logic."

You are the one who directed us to a wacko UFO/Free Energy/Pseudoscience website for "proof" that Ohm's Law is in error. I question your sense of logic based on the nonsense informaion that you base your "proof" on.

N8VB


 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

"This isn't a casual experiment. Even with my well-equipped labe measurements like this generally require special measurement fixtures. You will be sticking a meter in a system with many kilowatts of VAR power and extreme voltage variations from the top of the coil to the bottom, even when the transmitter is running fairly low power. "

I am beginning to get the idea - no matter the outcome one side or the other in this disagreement is not going accept the results.

I guess it would be easier for everyone to just believe what he/she wants to as a matter of "faith"...

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

Mindlessly parroting information that you have read on a pseudoscience website or what you have be incorrectly told in an inadequate american high school science class is not going to convince anyone.

KC8VWM incorrectly stated that:

<"Newton's first law is stated incorrectly as follows:
"An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force."">

and

<"It should say, "will remain in motion at constant velocity."">

In Newton's Principia the First Law it is stated as:

"Every body perseveres in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a right line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed thereon."

The First Law is stated in most physics textbooks as:

"An object at rest will remain at rest, and a moving object will remain at a constant velocity unless unbalanced forces act on it."

KC8VWM also incorrectly said:

<"Another Newton misconception is “Friction works in the opposite direction to the force of motion.”">

and

<"There is no such thing as a force of motion.">

Newton stated nothing about a "force of motion" as you claim. I urge you to read Newton's Principia and find exactly where he mentions friction and a "force of motion"

KC8VWM wrote:

<"I have no further comments for this debate, nor do I wish to engage in any further debate with you on this matter.">

Yes it is way off topic from the original article and it would be better to stop this debate instead of embarassing yourself here further.

KC8VWM said (after claiming to want no more discussion with me on the subject):

<"This, I'm afraid has nothing to do with UFO's or other twisted connotations derived from N8VB's sense of logic.">

It may not have anything to do with UFO's but it does show the same kind of thinking that can be a result of visting and unquestionably believing what is written on too many UFO/Free Energy/Pseudoscience fantasy-land websites.

Have a nice day.

N8VB






RE: Current in Antenna Load
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
It a very odd reaction to claim "no matter what the results no one will accept them".

All I'm doing is cautioning about HOW difficult it is to make measurements and how care is required.

Anyone who thinks in terms of sticking a big meter at the end of the coil, or worse yet sticking an op-amp in a strong electric field, really isn't a good idea.

I'm out of here. The article was nasty, the replies are nasty, and no one learns anything in that environment. E-ham should be ashamed of the quality of these forums.

73 Tom


 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

Well then how *exactly* would you suggest the test be performed? You haven't been very forthcoming in how you have measured and determined that the current in the coil is constant vs what Barry has measured.

If you do go then, bye... don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out!

N8VB
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by WV4I on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Good Day Gentlemen. Thanks for all the effort you put into such highly detailed, technical discussions as this one, no matter who is "right". However, most of us just stay with basic antenna principles, and don't try to remember all the underlying theory.
Simple "truths" re best coil placement point(s), antenna height, length vs 1/4 electrical wavelength, etc., would do the majority of hams reading this site far more good than delving into the complex theory behind such considerations.
Is there not a site somewhere devoted to, say RF/antenna design, by/for electrical engineering pros, that would be more appropiate for discussions of this depth???
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have to agree with Tom.

KC8VWM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (or away from the Honorary Dr. Adam's Free-Energy-Farce-a-tronic-Generator, LOL).
-

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I already described things to watch for in a test, but obviously people are distracted by unrelated issues.

Read back.

73 Tom

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

"Anyone who thinks in terms of sticking a big meter at the end of the coil, or worse yet sticking an op-amp in a strong electric field, really isn't a good idea."

I am open to any suggestion you make. Sticking a meter at the end of the coil is exactly what Barry did. You suggest it is a bad idea. I have read back over your posts but you only seem to criticize suggestions of how to do it, not provide any real information on exactly what equipment you would use or how you would perform the test. I am sincerely interested in exactly how you would go about it. You don't mind responding at great length to other posts so please don't tell me you do not have time to give your procedure on how to go about it.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by NI0C on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JJH:
In one post above, you stated that Kirchhoff's Current Law was based on conservation of energy. Strictly speaking, Kirchhoff's Current Law is based on the continuity of charge. It is Kirchhoff's Voltage Law that expresses conservation of energy.

73 de Chuck NI0C
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KC8VWM on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

N8VB,

<<<If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (or away from the Honorary Dr. Adam's Free-Energy-Farce-a-tronic-Generator, LOL). >>>>

N8VB,

Oh..., I see the egotistical arrogance continues. You know it's perfectly acceptable for you to disagree with my comments.

However, the manner you display your arrogant responses have little to be desired.

Keep talking, we're all listerning...


KC8VWM

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

Obviously you have no sense of humor.

Have a nice day.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W3JJH on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N0IC,

Not to quibble, but isn't the Conservation of Charge implied by the by the First Law of Thermodynamics?

73 de W3JJH
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KD5UJX on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I can't believe there have been so many replies over "current distribution" in a damn loading coil. There is nothing funnier that a bunch of EE's having a pi$$ing contest. You guys need to get a life. Who cares how the current is distributed? What is the best place for the loading coil? Top, middle, base?

Sign me,

ROTFLMAO
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
KD5UJX:

Yes in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter much - but it gives us something to do when the sunspot number is down and the K index is up. LOL.

As far as getting a life, you might want to take your own advise. You must have had enough time on your hands to at least look over the replies. Otherwise you wouldn't be lurking around eHam like the rest of us.

73,
N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EWJ on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N8VB

Aint that the truth.

Urinating contests aside...you guys have
enlightened my understanding of inductors...actually
some interesting reading...maybe theres something
to life besides CW.

Earle
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on October 20, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI writes:
>>All I'm doing is cautioning about HOW difficult it is to make measurements and how care is required.
Anyone who thinks in terms of sticking a big meter at the end of the coil, or worse yet sticking an op-amp in a strong electric field, really isn't a good idea.
I'm out of here. The article was nasty, the replies are nasty, and no one learns anything in that environment. E-ham should be ashamed of the quality of these forums. <<


I hope that some of you are getting the picture now and would perhaps excuse my "personal attacks" on W8JI. Instead of questioning or arguing technical matters, he goes into ridiculing and pontificating. It can be taken once or twice, but when it is a pattern and happens about five times, as it happened to me, for pointing some fallacy in W8JIs "teachings", then it burns. This was the reason for the tone of my posting, I had enough of that crap and I will not take it. The article according to W8JI is "nasty" because it presents the facts, data, pictures, follows the roots and trail leading to error perpetuated in some literature for 50 years.

As you can see he will not address the questions or answer arguments. He will go about mumbo-jumbo that is twisted and designed to impress casual or unenlightened reader. You can't really argue with him, because he misrepresents one's postings and presents "arguments" that are out of the scope of the point of discussion. One can follow the threads and see the pattern.

Just as an example is the latest: "Anyone who thinks in terms of sticking a big meter at the end of the coil," - who said anything about sticking BIG meter? W9UCW shows how the current was measured with smallest practical thermocouple ammeters, did W8JI point out what was wrong with that picture? Not! Did W8JI show how he measured current as he claims and what were the values? Not! You ask him how to measure, he will tell you "All I'm doing is cautioning about HOW difficult it is to make measurements and how care is required." If we are close to making the measurements and verifying FACTS, proving that he was wrong, then he is "outa" here. Where are his MEASURED figures, pictures?

Want prediction based on the past? He will find out he is wrong. Then he will get "busy" with something else, his web page will be "modified" to reflect the reality. Give him about 6 months and he will reemerge as a guru and parade as a "discoverer" that the current is significantly different on the ends of the loading coil and will be preaching it to the world without due credit where it belongs.

We presented facts, measurements, pictures. He presented mumbo-jumbo, scrambling the real issue and reality. He is hailed as "well respected engineer", I would like to see his engineering diploma.

It is not about one upmanship, I do not make my living off ham radio, but I will respond to fallacies being presented as a gospel and I will not take ridicule for when I am right from someone who is wrong. I thank you eHam for this forum, because on some reflectors it seems that moderators are members of "Rauchian Cult" and promptly terminate the discussions when they get to the point that he is wrong, so he has the last word "explaining" how he is "right."
Yes, lets stick to technical arguments, get things right so rest of the hams can learn, benefit and show ourselves in professional manner as it used to be in the earlier days of radio.

Again thanks to those who expressed gratitude for rehashing this subject, it is significant. Those who do not get it, just skip it or hit delete key, maybe one day you will appreciate the significance of the current in the loading coils, especially if the modeling software is capable of accommodating it properly. Knowing what is happening in the loading coils can make 10 dB difference in your signal and that is SIGNIFICANT!

Yuri, K3BU/m
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N0TONE on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This could have been an interesting article, but amidst the duplicitous attempts to show scientific evidence, some reasoned and some simple hysterics, I think the title was wrong.

It should have been: "W8JI doesn't know anything about mobile antennas and I'm going to PROVE it!!!" with a subtitle "and I'll include 3 contradictory scientific explanations along the way".

Seriously, Yuri, try re-writing the article, but make NO references to W8JI or his webpage or to anybody else whose opinion happens to agree with yours, and then your theories can be discussed according to their merits.

Rmember, the idea is either right or wrong. It doesn't mean squat who does or doesn't agree with it. Science is science. Write it up that way.

AM
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by HIGHQ on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Wow what a discussion. My previous employer did antenna testing for the military so I am interested in the discussion., I dont remember them ever looking to see if the current changed in a loading coil. From reading over the messages I suspect that W8JI doe not have any test data to back him up instead I think he is probably making an educated guess about the results. If he did have the data I am sure it would have been on his web pages. One objection that I have to something he said is about op amps. We used a setup similar to what the one guy described with the opamp stage sheilded and in the field of the antenna. We did not have any problems because we used a milliwatt signal source. As long as N8VB keeps the power levels down then it should be fine.

Roy
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
N8VB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am open to any suggestion you make. Sticking a meter at the end of the coil is exactly what Barry did. You suggest it is a bad idea. I have read back over your posts but you only seem to criticize suggestions of how to do it, not provide any real information on exactly what equipment you would use or how you would perform the test. I am sincerely interested in exactly how you would go about it. You don't mind responding at great length to other posts so please don't tell me you do not have time to give your procedure on how to go about it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Here are some of the suggestions that Tom has already provided:


W8JI wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Second, you are measuring in an intense electric and magnetic field. I don't think you will be successful with magnetically coupled devices, or anything sensitive to electric fields.

Turning the coil over doesn't do a thing electrically, if the coil is symmetrical. The real test for false readings from stray coupling would be to short the meter terminals and look for zero, remove the meters and see if resonance changed, and reverse the meter terminals and see if readings changed.

This isn't a casual experiment. Even with my well-equipped lab, measurements like this generally require special measurement fixtures. You will be sticking a meter in a system with many kilowatts of VAR power and extreme voltage variations from the top of the coil to the bottom, even when the transmitter is running fairly low power.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


It would be nice, however, if Tom elaborated some more on exactly what he means by "special measurement fixtures".


W8JI wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It a very odd reaction to claim "no matter what the results no one will accept them".
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Not really, Tom. We already have two sets of measurements, yours and Barry's. One camp seems to believe Barry is right, while another camp seems to think your claims are correct. I happen to think you are correct because your observations seem to square better with my understanding of theory. In any case, unless we develop a current measurement technique that everyone agrees is accurate, then we are likely to end up back at square one. If for instance, Phil, N8VB does the same things that Barry did when he makes his measurements, he is liable to get the same results as Barry. If this happens and Phil announces to the world that his data shows a current taper in the coil, you are very likely to respond to him with same criticisms that you gave to Barry. I think this is what Phil was driving at when he made the above statement - "no matter what the results no one will accept them". If on the other hand, you provide him with more guidance with respect to proper sensor design out in the light of day for all to review, then perhaps it will inspire more confidence in Phil's results. I think this is the only thing that will move the debate forward.

73 de Mike, W4EF.............................
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi W4EF

What I actually said was this:

"I am beginning to get the idea - no matter the outcome one side or the other in this disagreement is not going accept the results."

Which is essentially the same thing, but if you believe what another poster said earlier in his comments, I am of the anal personality type which is why I had to point out the difference! LOL.

And you are right on. If I repeat Barry's experiment then I will be just spinning my wheels if everyone doesn't agree it is a valid way to measure the current in the loading coil. I, too, tend to agree with W8JI that the current should be essentially constant (ruling out a lot of shunt capacitance) from making a guess from what I think I understanding of theory. Barry's results are contrary to what I would have expected. Is he wrong or is his measurements in error? Who knows without performing more tests.

It would be helpful if W8JI would reply with a specific suggestion on how to perform a test that he thinks would be accurate. I mean specifying exactly what equipment he would use and a detailed description of the physical arrangement of the test antenna with coil. He said that he has measured hundreds of coils so he should be able to remember exactly how he has done it. What is not clear is whether he has measured current through loading coils in vertical antennas like what Barry has done.

I am sincerely interested in trying to perform a test that most everyone will agree on. I am trying to keep an open mind on the question of current taper in the coil and will not be offended if my ideas on how to proceed are shot down as long as the person doing the shooting has a specific recommendation on how to proceed. Let them post thier suggestions for peer review.

73,
N8VB
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KE4ZHN on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
How about we get the 2 guys involved in this argument to lay their tongues on the coil, and have someone key up a legal limit amp into the coil loaded antenna and see for sure if theres current flowing through it? What started out as a good scientific article has become a ridiculous, pointless bashing fest between two amateurs who think they know it all. At this point, who cares which one is right?
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
The problem is when an article starts with a bad personal tone, reply posts follow that example. Even if both people are not involved in persoanl attacks, both get labelled that way by people who just don't bother reading who said what.

The reason technical accuracy is important is many people actually want to understand how things work. Some people don't, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Internet and these forums could be a good place to learn and exchange ideas, but the problem is communications aren't tempered by good manners normally shown in direct conversation. Because of that, a useful tool to help people becomes a place where the only thing we learn is how to be nasty to each other.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Mike,

You wrote:
>>Not really, Tom. We already have two sets of measurements, yours and Barry's. One camp seems to believe Barry is right, while another camp seems to think your claims are correct. I happen to think you are correct because your observations seem to square better with my understanding of theory.>>

Well, we certainly agree electrical rules do not allow the behavior as described in the article. But that is NOT saying the rules won't permit dissimilar currents. I've given several examples where it could occur in extreme degrees.

Part of the problem is I never have said current cannot be different. All I have ever done is state the conditions that allow it to be different, or prevent it from being different. I've also disagreed with the stetement that current is "high only in the first few turns" and that is why coiol loss isn't important in a mobile antenna. That is absolutely incorrect in any remotely reasonable system design.

The problem is distributed capacitance and the ratio of shunt C to load C presented by the whip. It requires a poor system to have the current tapers described, and the antenna would be much less efficient than necessary.

As a matter of fact, this may actually be a good way to spot a poor design! Because of that, it is useful.

The toroid certainly cannot be correct, because the qualification was it was "small" and "had no external coupling".

My web pages make this all clear, and they have been unchanged since this all started months ago.

>>In any case, unless we develop a current measurement technique that everyone agrees is accurate, then we are likely to end up back at square one.>>

Again this is probably one of the more difficult measurements to make accurately, because the physical size, behavior, and construction of the measurement devices are very difficult even for experienced people.

I've been trying to think of how someone else could do this with minimal equipment, but measuring current with fair to good reliability in the presence of strong electric and magnetic fields isn't trivial!

Knowing how to build a shielded box that is immune to high fields, and sample current without sampling external flux from a nearby coil is one thing. Knowing how to tell someone without access to parts and equipment how to do it is a huge problem. But I'm thinking about it.

>>If for instance, Phil, N8VB does the same things that Barry did when he makes his measurements, he is liable to get the same results as Barry.>>

I doubt it. I'd bet money that Phil would not get the same results unless he used EXACTLY the same meters and test methods.

In any event it would be very easy to see if the meters were responding incorrectly. One clear thing was that no one did anything to verify meter reliability in the measurements. Phil could do that with some simple tests.

The problem I have is all the personal insults going on make me wonder how much fun it would be to spend time proving Faraday and Maxwell were actually correct.

>>If this happens and Phil announces to the world that his data shows a current taper in the coil, you are very likely to respond to him with same criticisms that you gave to Barry.>>

Not really. I never said there would never be any amount of current change. I said the amount is not a function of the number of electrical degrees the coil replaces, and would depend on the ratio of shunt C to series impedance of the load beyond the coil.

In a properly designed system with the coil reasonably far from self-resonance, the current would be essentially equal at both ends unless the coil was very long compared to antenna length.

That's just how it works.

If someone is measuring current taper outside those qualifications then I would argue, or if they say the current taper has a "shape" of the electrical degrees the antenna has been shortened, that is wrong. If they say the the "current is high only in the first few turns" and "coil Q isn't important because coils have high current in the first few turns", that is also incorrect.

The same with the article's claim that the triangular distribution of a short whip is a "shortcut". The sine waveshape comes from the standing wave generated by the reflection at the open end of the antenna, and a sine shape does NOT occur in a short whip above the loading coil or hat. Current is triangular in a short antenna (after the loading coil) because there is no time for the reflection to change phase with distance.

The only thing that bothers me Mike is the article describes many things incorrectly, not just antenna currents. It even describes what I said incorrectly.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9UCW on October 21, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
This article has certainly elicited a lot of discussion. W4EF, W3JJH, N8VB and others have added some comments that might lead to the possible resolution of the controversy surrounding current taper in loading coils. I hope that resolution comes. I’ll try to contribute to the effort by adding more details of our measurement set-ups, for which various posters have asked. But first, I’d like to put our work in perspective.

The objective of our study which began in 1993 is to quantify the effectiveness of mobile antenna configurations by making empirical measurements. Effectiveness includes other parameters than just field intensity. Configurations include many variables, like Hi-Q vs. LO-Q coils, coil shape factor, positions of the inductance in the mast, lengths of all portions of the antenna, capacitance/inductance ratios including the use of “hats”, one vs. many resonators, mounting angles for resonators, matching vs. not matching at the feedpoint vs. using a remote tuner at the transmitter, connection to the “plane” or “grounding” including use of “mag-mounts”, size of the vehicles and others. The first three years work was done in Fletcher, NC at the home of K8CFU, now W7ACD. Thousands of measurements were made utilizing a test stand built to simulate a full size vehicle over pavement. It was an elaborate set-up with multiple measurement points at different angles, heights and distances from the test stand. Many people were involved. Measurements at remote pick-up points were “blind” and all test stand settings were monitored. The tests were repeated several times in three years. The overall layout of the test program was the result of 30 years of input from lots of learned persons who looked at our earlier efforts and offered suggestions year after year for changes and improvements that would make the results come out “right”. Frankly, many things we found in early tests flew in the face of “conventional wisdom”, and that provoked folks to offer ideas for improved test measurements. We took all ideas to heart and continue to be totally open to those who tell us “what’s wrong” with our measurements. The idea is to get it right and report it to hamdom, not to refute anyone’s claims or disprove any “laws” or theory. We have no axe to grind and I can’t imagine why we would. None of us own any “antenna stock” or expect to be immortalized by “Barry’s Law” or “Arch’s Law” or whatever.

When we finished the tests at Fletcher in 1995, we assessed what was left to measure and what we had to resolve. Two items seemed to disagree with much of the literature on the subject. One of those items was the fact that after 30 years of modifying measurement tests, we still had the same results regarding HI-Q vs. LO-Q coils. We confirmed over and over for the umpteenth time that the greatest difference in field intensity (near and far) between long, skinny, close wound coils on a form, vs. big diameter, spaced, large wire air wound coils, all other factors being the same, was .3db, and that was on 160M. The difference couldn’t be measured on 80 thru 10. Another item was that we could not verify the assertions of some authors who put forth formulae locating the inductance somewhere near the center of the mast as the optimum spot. In fact, we consistently found that the field intensity was highest with the inductance highest in the mast, of course finding some way to have an appropriate capacitance beyond the coil to achieve resonance and useable bandwidth. These two items, unlike the rest of the data from the Fletcher program made us ponder the writings to see where we might have gone wrong.

While other tests and measurements continued in Texas for the next few years, there was an effort to hit the books really hard. Finally, we saw that all the writings on the subject based the conclusions about losses in certain coils, and positions of the inductance in the mast, on calculations assuming a constant current throughout the inductance. Meanwhile, we had seen rather unscientific indications that the current diminished in the coil. We found that if the calculations had been based on that tapering current, the results would be close to what we measured in Fletcher. That led us to get some new, government-issue, thermocouple type RF ammeters to see if the “unscientific indications” were true. They were. So, for us, current taper in loading coils has been a secondary issue, one which might explain the difference between the real world and the writings of many learned authors. Of course, other hypotheses need to be explored, too.

I feel compelled to say that we have not been impressed by the output of “modeling programs”, personal web-sites and the random calculations of other persons on the subject at hand. All of these sources are based on assumptions that we cannot verify by empirical measurement, and in fact, are at odds with the real world numbers we have measured.

Now, as for our measurements of current into and out of loading coils, here’s what we did. Measurements were made on several different configurations. At first they were made on test stand antennas, then on ground mounted antennas with an extensive above ground radial system and finally on vehicle mounted antennas. All have been in the realm of normal mobile sized antennas from five to nine feet overall. All positions of the inductance from base to top have been measured. Small diameter close wound-on-a-form coils as well as large air wound coils have been tried. No “heliwhip” or coils considered a significant part of a wavelength have been used. Two different toroidal loading coils have been tried. All measurements have been on antennas isolated from surrounding conductors, foliage and structures at least a half wavelength away. Our four RF ammeters are identical in all ways and have been checked for calibration. For test purposes, two of them are mounted with their thermocouples as close as possible to the ends of the coil under test. The coil with its meters has always been reversible to double check results. The procedure has been to bring up the RF feed to the antenna until the bottom meter is full scale at 100 MA and then read the top meter. We found that adding the meters to the antennas made minimal changes in the antenna under test, limited to moving the resonant point down a bit due to slightly added capacitance above the coil. We find no indication that the meters are affected by the RF field.

I hope these details will help those who want to pursue the question of current taper. We have not made a “career” out of measuring the coil currents because until someone proves otherwise, we are satisfied with the results of our measurements as an explanation of the more important issues surrounding coil construction and placement vs. effectiveness. I don’t think of any of our findings as denial of accepted “laws”…but possibly a drawing into question the application of those laws. Nevertheless, I’m sorry that so much spleen has been vented on this side issue and hope that the energy can be re-aimed at finding answers to the dichotomies unveiled.

Barry, W9UCW
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by HIGHQ on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
1. Could you wind a coil from resistance wire and quickly measure the tempature of the coil in different places along its length after transmitting to get an idea of what the current is at each point? Who cares about the effeciency of the test antenna since you are really only interested in current taper in the coil. 2. I wonder what results you would get in measuring the current taper in the loading coil of a short loaded horizontal dipole?

Roy
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Barry,

When you say you compared low-Q to high-Q, how did you measure Q in the coil? What frequency and test method/equipment?

Is there a detailed report published on HOW you measured things, including field strength and Q?

I'm not sure how much of what Yuri writes agrees with what you actually claimed, but let's assume for a moment it all agrees. When a conclusion, as you state, disagrees with accepted texts and theory it is very important to everyone involved in the measurement to find out why everyone else is wrong.

I'm especially puzzled why or how a toroid occupying nearly zero length could have current taper, becuase it would imply even Faraday and Maxwell were incorrect in their theories.

While I agree a current taper is possible, the mechanism would require a loading coil operated near self-resonance of considerable shunt C to the surroundings compared to the impedance seen above the coil.

It is the sprinkling of very questionable conclusions throughout these exchanges that I take exception to, such as "current is high only in the first few turns so coil Q isn't important".

Coil Q isn't terribly important in a mobile, but that is because other losses dominante the system. Not becuase current disappears after the first few turns of a coil.

I'd bet Faraday and Maxwell and Kirchhoff aren't really wrong, but if they are the results would be more astounding than if claims E-H antennas worked were true. Turning many major rules upside requires compelling detailed proof.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Roy,

Measuring heat is difficult because you would be making an indirect measurement.

When making measurements, it is always best to directly measure whatever you are interested in. Don't measure the length of fish to determine the weight, hi hi.

You could do that, but would have to know the thermal losses in the coil and work in a temperature stable environment.

Almost 100% of the time when a measurement or conclucion disagrees with established science, it is a flaw in methods used that was overlooked. Most of the rest is just plain bad data. The rest of it is that there is no disagreement at all.

There have been a lot of "perpetual motion machines" invented through flawed data, so great care is always advised when disagreeing with established science. If I found something like that, I don't think I would release the data in a flurry of personal insults in an amateur radio forum. I think I'd go right to the IEEE and be professional about the whole thing.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by HIGHQ on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Tom said <Measuring heat is difficult because you would be making an indirect measurement.>

Isnt that what you are doing with a thermocouple ammeter anyways?

Roy
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Roy,

Yes, and it is true also that almost any current measurement is somewhat indirect.

The difference between a thermocouple and heat in a coil may be significant.

In a meter, the heated element is inside a somewhat thermally isolated area where heat loss is somewhat controlled. External temperatures influence thermocouple meters heavily, but they at least have the element inside a case with dead air and read while current is applied.

A coil would be much more exposed to the environment.

Both the thermocouple meter and resistance wire coil share some problems. Both can greatly perturb the systems we are trying to measure, both respond to heat rather than directly reading current. But in general the meter is probably better, assuming it is not physically large compared to the area of antenna above the coil.

I use meters that measure flux density in a closed core via a current transformer, and SHIELD the meters with screening so the meter and coupler sees no potential difference from the strong electric field or from coil flux when measuring current in high impedance systems. The meter and enclosure has to be very small, so the capacitance it adds is very small compared to the system being measured.

By the way, I feel compelled to keep adding this. It isn't the fact current tapers I find difficult to believe, it is the conditions of current taper and the conclusions that make no sense and argue against the rules.

Proving Maxwell, Faraday, Kirchoff’s, Henry, and Ohm's laws, rules, or equations wrong is not a trivial pursuit and requires extraordinary care. "This is what the meter said and that's all there is to it" is NOT enough.

A long coil with nothing or little above it would have considerable current taper from end-to-end. A coil terminated in impedance near to or lowers than the distributed capacitance of the coil would show very little current taper.

A toroid, compact and with very small volume compared to the area above the toroid, would have virtually no taper. The same is true for a compact air coil.

When I have measured systems, this is what I find and it agrees with the rules. If there is evidence the formulas and rules we use are wrong, it belongs in front of peers with an ADEQUATE description of how data was taken.... not as a "I'm right, you're wrong" arm-waving article in a Ham forum.

It would be better to use space for facts and descriptions rather than "he said I said". The burden falls on those claiming common knowledge is wrong, not those defending what has historically worked.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

Show us how and what you measured current in the loading coils. If there is a difference in our measurements, as you claim, let's see where the error was made and by whom. Ignoring FACTS and "defending" theories that are missapllied serves as no proof. We are talking about radiating antennas and not a closed circuits.

Can we finally see how and what you MEASURED, as you claim, in loading coils?

Yuri, K3BU

 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe this is a dumb question but I have to ask the question, will a therocouple even work?

How much temperature rise could you expect in a finite length of antenna?

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Maybe this is a dumb question but I have to ask the question, will a therocouple even work?
How much temperature rise could you expect in a finite length of antenna?
73, Carl - W9PMZ>>

Hi Carl,

The other fellow was suggesting measuring temperature rise in a coil wound from intentionally resistive wire. The problem obviously is thermal conductivity and heat radiation, which would make any reading difficult.

A thermocouple RF current meter would probably work, if it was small enough (with an internal couple) and shielded to prevent induction field coupling from disturbing readings.

If we knew where to purchase small inexpensive thermocouple meters cheaply, I'd be willing to buy a couple and make a calibration test. I have the equipment to do that, and the time would be minor.

Maybe someone can source some SMALL RF current meters in the 1A range?

Actually the burden of proof falls on the person or persons claiming conventional theories are wrong. But I don't mind spending a little time to help ensure accuracy.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W4EF on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
K3BU wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Show us how and what you measured current in the loading coils.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think he just did, Yuri

W8JI wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I use meters that measure flux density in a closed core via a current transformer, and SHIELD the meters with screening so the meter and coupler sees no potential difference from the strong electric field or from coil flux when measuring current in high impedance systems. The meter and enclosure has to be very small, so the capacitance it adds is very small compared to the system being measured.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

K3BU wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ignoring FACTS and "defending" theories that are missapllied serves as no proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't think anyone is ignoring FACTS, Yuri. I don't think anyone here believes that Barry, W9UCW, did not measure what he claims to have measured. What is at issue is whether or not there were confounding factors (e.g. electric field coupling) in his measurement technique that MAY have introduced errors into his data.

K3BU wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We are talking about radiating antennas and not a closed circuits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, agreed, but coils are stupid. They aren't smart enough to know whether they are sitting inside and amplifier chassis or if they are hung in the middle of an antenna. The laws that govern their behavior are the same in both cases.

Actually you should be happy, Yuri. The debate is actually progressing forward. Barry is participating, and we are finally starting to get some good insight into the sensors that Tom used to make his measurements.

73 de Mike, W4EF..............................
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W9PMZ on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Why not just tape a therometer to the antenna?

If the temperature rise is so small that a therometer can't register a difference, how accurate of a thermocouple will be needed?

Also, can't we predict what a temperature rise will be?
a) assume that Tom is correct.
b) assume that Yuri is correct.

If an experiement is to be run, you should at least predict what the measurements will be so proper testing equipment can be used.

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 22, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Hi Carl,

The thermocouple I referred to is INSIDE a meter. The RF current is passed through a controlled resistance, which generates heat. A voltage meter measures temperature rise by voltage generated in a welded junction of dissimilar metals. These metals generate a voltage that is proportional to temperature. This is the typical construction of older style RF current meters.

These meters are sensitive to temperature and strong external fields, as many components are. They also have poor resolution compared to other methods, but are inexpensive, simple, and have long-life for measurement of RF currents.

I think I wasn't clear enough, and you misunderstood the thermocouple to be outside the meter.

Please don't say "Tom is right" as a one or the other thing. I'm not in an argument. I simply believe Maxwell, Faraday, Kirchhoff, Ohm and the rest are correct. That's all I'm saying.

Absolutely every bit of this is predictable, but we actually know very little about the test setup Barry used. What would be useful is a real paper on the test with real specifications of what was used. Without that no one can say anything about the measurements.

One thing is clear, however. The either the theories the authors used are incorrect, or people like Maxwell and Faraday were all wet.

I believe the following:

Coils don't "know" they are in an antenna and behave differently when they are in circuits or antennas.

Current in very short uniform cross section thin radiator above the load does not have a sine shape, and the books and models are not "wrongly" using a triangular distribution as a "shortcut". That's how it really is.

Current cannot be high "only in the first few turns" (unless the coil is in a high-order self-resonance).

Toroids or other physically small inductors, do have noticably different current in one terminal and out the other (unless they are at or near a high-order self-resoance).

If someone thinks that is how an antenna system or components actually work, they should write a paper and submit it for peer review. It flys in the face of everything we know about system behavior, so if they are correct it would rewrite much of what is accepted as fact.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
<<<
Toroids or other physically small inductors, do *** have noticably different current in one terminal and out the other (unless they are at or near a high-order self-resoance).>>>

Sorry, that should have said "do NOT have". Typo.



 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N8VB on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

" <<<
Toroids or other physically small inductors, do *** have noticably different current in one terminal and out the other (unless they are at or near a high-order self-resoance).>>>

Sorry, that should have said "do NOT have". Typo. "

I thought maybe Yuri finally had gotten through to you. Oh well. LOL.

N8VB
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by FJGH on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
They still aren't done yet!
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K8KAS on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
What a bunch of feathers,as a 10 year old kid I remember playing with my 160 meter Master Mobile coil with a neon bulb and RF applied, what did I see "a change in the brillance of the neon bulb over the coil length" wow the current voltage ratio changed over the length of the coil. What does all this mean anyway,who gives a hoot. The mobile antenna that gives you the greatest far field for a given power wins anyway.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by NI0C on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
W3JJH:
I am finally getting back to you concerning your Oct. 20 post on this thread where you asked if Kirchhoff's Current Law was implied by the First Law of Thermodynamics. I tend to view such questions from a circuit theory viewpoint since that has been my teaching specialty for over 20 years. Therefore, I consulted with a faculty colleague in the physics department where I teach. He says I'm right, that charge and energy aren't quite the same and that "the Q in the First Law stands for heat, not charge."

73 de Chuck NI0C
 
Getting Kirchoff correct and making RF current mea  
by N0TONE on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Kirchoff has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and I'm afraid, incorrectly.

Just as Heinrich Hertz had no concept of frequency, yet we use his name to refer to frequency, so too, Kirchoff did not have any concept of volts and amps. We honor the great man by attaching his name to useful circuit theories.

However, astronomers are in possessions of the correct form of Kirchoff's laws. It is thus:

"For any given 3 dimensional area, the sum total of energy entering must equal the sum total of energy leaving".

The "current law" and the "voltage law", when both applied, lead to this result.

It is worth considering that Kirchoff's current law does NOT apply merely to a node. Rather, just as his astronomical law refers to any 3-dimensional surface, one could draw an enclosed shape around any part of a circuit, and the sum total of all the currents flowing in must equal zero. Draw a circle around the battery in a battery/lightbulb circuit, and you'll see that the current entering the battery must equal the current leaving the battery, in order for KCL to be satisfied at both nodes.

We hams get into a whole lot of trouble, though, when we attempt to apply our knowledge of circuit theory (regardless of how good it is) to an antenna subject, because antennas require us to think of electromagnetic fields FIRST, and only consider that volts and amps are the RESULT of those fields - not the cause of them! Even in a bit of RG-8, the current and voltage in that cable result from the electromagnetic wave that was launched into the cable by your transmitter. THe current and voltage coming out of your PA's final tube are a RESULT of the field interactions happening inside the tube.

In the case of the loading coil, here's a simplified way to look at the situation.

Consider that the coil is not merely a two-terminal device, but a three-terminal device. Two of the terminals are, in fact, the bottom and top leads. The third terminal does not exist physically, but it can be used to represent an effective current flow into or out of the coil, used to represent radiation from the coil.

So it comes down to "how much does the coil radiate"?

An infinitely short coil doesn't. A coil wound on a low-loss, high permeability toroid core also doesn't. Those coils will have the same current at each end. This is a fundamental truth, and if you measure a difference from one end to the other, you have not determined anything about the coil, you have, instead, demonstrated that something is amiss in your measurement technique. As a coil gets longer, it becomes more possible that it does radiate. However, I think that would be poor design - why would you want the #12 wire of a coil to radiate, instead of the large-diameter antenna elements?

Measuring these currents is EXTREMELY difficult.

On a well-built mobile antenna, we'll have a fairly large (2 inch, for example) diameter to the bottom section. If used at low frequencies, the radiation resistance is exceptionally low - below one ohm. If we break the connection between this bottom section and the coil, and insert some sort of RF ammeter, we will have upset the entire antenna. The RF ammeter has, by necessity, added length to the antenna, and ALL ammeters have an internal resistance greater than zero. That resistance adds to the under-one-ohm radiation resistance of the antenna, and therefore, has changed the behavior of the antenna.

Now, if we move this ammeter to the top of the coil, we again must break the connection from coil to antenna to insert it. We have again, disturbed the antenna, but in a different way than before. If we measure different currents at the bottom and the top, it is likely because we are, fundamentally, measuring a different antenna in the two cases.

If we had two such RF ammeters, and could demonstrate satisfactorily that they gave identical readings in identical situations, then we could insert one at the bottom of the coil, one at the top, and then we'd be measuring bottom and top currents on the same antenna. But that antenna would not be the one we really want measurements on.

I use a powdered-iron transformer for making these measurements. I build the transformer to have an extreme ratio of current, to minimize the effect on the antenna. I calculate what the current ratio should be of the transformer design, then I measure it. If there is a discrepancy, I won't use the transformer until I have identified and corrected the design flaw. The correct design varies depending on the nature of the antenna you're trying to measure.

I always use a coupling ratio of 1000:1 or greater.

The transformer consists of a powdered iron core, large enough to slip over the antenna, so that I don't have to physically break any connections on the antenna to insert it. The primary is simply the one "turn" of the antenna going through it, and the secondary is the turns of wire I've added to the core. A low impedance load (often one ohm) is placed across the secondary, followed by a carefully-measured (traceable to NIST) attenuator, and a square-law RF detector. Ferrite materials are used on the interconnection cables between all of this to avoid the RF detector being affected by the fields from the adjacent antenna.

I'll build two of these, since once the first is built, they're easy to duplicate.

I haven't done any of this in over 10 years, so I no longer recall which powdered iron cores I settled on, but I think they were by Ferroxcube.

I once had an occasion where the bottom of a coil did get warm, while the top did not. Yet my RF ammeters showed the same current on both ends. What was going on?

I ultimately determined that the soldered connection from the coil to the lower antenna mast (for experimentation, it was copper) was adding some undesireable resistance. Solder is not a particularly good conductor of electricity. I copper-plated over the solder joint. Not only did the bottom section of the coil no longer get warm, but the two RF ammeters both showed about 20% more current flowing in the antenna. And my far-field instruments showed a 1.5dB increase in field strength.

Tom is right - these are VERY challenging measurements to make. Even when I worked in a research lab, we did them wrong more often than we did them right.

AM
 
RE: Getting Kirchoff correct and making RF current  
by W9UCW on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
To N0TONE
Hello AM,
Thanks for your input and interest in solving that debate. Yours are the first really meaningful thoughts as to why there is a debate and perhaps how to solve it. For me, the words of Mark Twain come to mind when he said “Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example”.
All kidding aside, I hope you are able to implement your plan and make the measurements. Besides, I think we may be running out of scientists that I can be blamed for having blasphemed. I figure the next step is that I will be accused of doing the devils work. Thanks again.
Barry
 
RE: Getting Kirchoff correct and making RF current  
by K3BU on October 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here is the posting by Cecil, W5DXP on antennas NG sheding some light on the "theoretical" (Kirhoff and Ohm laws applicability) arguments and their propriety to the case:


"Assume a transmission line with an SWR of 10:1. Put a series inductor
in series with the transmission line. Assuming negligible losses, the
forward current is the same at each end of the coil and the reflected
current is the same at each end of the coil. The question is: Do the
superposed currents, Ifwd+Iref, remain constant? Of course not, because
of phase shifts. With a large enough coil, one could cause a current
maximum point on one side of the coil and a current minimum point on
the other side.

That same principle holds true for standing wave antennas which are
antennas with (surprise!) standing waves. The current is NOT the same
at each end of the coil (unless a current maximum or current minimum
occurs in the middle of the coil). However, for traveling wave antennas,
the current at each end of a loading coil would be close to equal.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp"


 
RE: Getting Kirchoff correct and making RF current  
by K3BU on October 31, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Here some info from Cecil, W5DXP from rec.radio.amateur.antennas News Group on the subject:

"Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
> What I was looking for is to see 1. if anyone else MEASURED the current in
> loading coils, and what results they arrived at (and if we are wrong, then
> where did we go wrong). 2. If this is right than to have modeling software
> implement it with least error. I would like to use that for optimizing, say,
> loaded elements for receiving arrays on low bands, optimizing mobile antennas,
> loaded multielement beams, etc.

Hi Yuri,
try this out for your argument in the other group. Using EZNEC:

Example 1: 102' CF dipole with loading coils in the center of each arm
to cause the antenna to resonate on 3.76 MHz. I get XL=j335 ohms.

Example 2: Replace the above loading coils with series inductive stubs
hanging down. Ten foot stubs with six inch spacing between the wires is
what I used. What happens to the current across that six inch gap is obvious
from the current plot using EZNEC. Hint: There is a step function across
that six inch gap just as there will be with a six inch coil.

Then ask: Why doesn't EZNEC treat these two cases the same way?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp"


and ...

"
Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
> There is too much reliance now going on modeling program results, ignoring some
> realities.

Yuri,
here is a modeling result that you might like. :-) I took a 102' dipole
and loaded it in the center of each leg with an inductive stub that made the
dipole resonant on 3.76 MHz. I added a one ohm series 'load' to each side of
the stub. Drawing one leg of the dipole, it looks like this:

----------R2-+ +-R1----------FP--- ... other half
................|. | ... (dots inserted here to get spacing)
................|. | inductive
................|. | stub
...............+-+

EZNEC reports 0.85 amps through R1 and 0.57 amps through R2, a difference
of 33%. If one could model the inductive loading reactance as an actual
physical coil instead of a lumped single point impedance, results would
be similar to the above.

Now here is something that might blow some minds. The inductive stub
above is ten feet long. That's about 1/8WL on 20m. A 1/8WL shorted stub
equals +jZ0. The results of running the above antenna on 20m is that the
current through R1 is 185 degrees out of phase with the current through R2.
At the time when the current through R2 is flowing toward the end of the
antenna, the current through R1 is flowing toward the feedpoint. Wonder
what Kirchhoff would say about that. If you replace the stub with a coil
of the same reactance, not much changes.

Tell W8JI to stop using lumped circuit analysis when he should be using
distributed circuit analysis. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp"

 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K0PP on November 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
Regarding current in loading coils ....

I can supply a photo of a "Minooka Special" loading coil wound with #14 CU wire on a 3" PVC pipe that melted and partially bent over. It is very obvious that the greater heat was at the lower portions of the coil ... this is where the bending took place.

The coild was atop a 66' piece of 3" irrigation tubing, and the top hat was made from eight CB whips arranged in the form of a sphere about 5' in diameter. This top hat, now on an insulated tower, can be seen by going to KI7HM on QRZ.com and following the lead to K0PP.

Alan and I go back a L-O-N-G way ... he knows of what he speaks. (:-))

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
 
Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by N7WS on November 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
In his comments at: http://www.k3bu.us/loadingcoils.htm
Yuri says:

"Roy Lewallen, W7EL, author of EZNEC and Wes Stewart, N7WS recommend workarounds to replace the coil with cylinder of similar size or breaking the coil to number of physical segments with appropriate inductances."

To my recollection, I have made no such statements and when I pressed Yuri to provide a link to where I said this, he could not.

Making up stuff to support a preconceived conclusion is bad science. There seems to be a lot of that going on in this discussion.

Wes Stewart N7WS
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on November 3, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I checked the archives, and Wes is right. I made a mistake making reference to him instead of Richard Clark, KB7QHC, who gave me the suggestion in the following posting:

>>Hi Yuri,

When I open the load dialog window, it presents R in some form or
another (the answer to your Q provision). Are you concerned the
program will treat the load as an infinitesimally small object? If it
does, you could decimate the coil inductance and distribute it across
10 segments whose span is equivalent to your anticipated physical
length. Perhaps a lot of trouble (and perhaps there's another, better
way), but it seems to be the price of your query.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC<<

I had no intention to mislead or make things up. I relied on my memory, which got confused between those two 7s, frequent posters on Antenna NG. My apology and I will correct the reference in my web page article at www.K3BU.us

Yuri, K3BU
 
RE: Getting Kirchoff correct and making RF current  
by W5DXP on November 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!
I have added my references on this subject to my web page:

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
First of all no one has said the current can't change in a real loading coil. Please NEVER let Yuri (or anyone else) tell you what I said. READ THE RESPONSES YOURSELF.

What Yuri does is extract a few parts of phrases from dozens of posts, and snip it down to what he wants me to say.

What I (and most other people) have said all along is the current reduction is a function of physical size and distributed capaciatnce of the coil. It cannot, as Yuri claims, taper in an inductor that does not have significant physical size compared to the rest of the antenna. It cannot taper in a toroid with NO external fields.

What Yuri (and perhaps Barry through Yuri)state is most of the current is in the first few turns, and that is why coil Q is unimportant. That's not true. The reason coil Q is somewhat less important than we might think is the ground losses and other colaterial losses ar so igh.

In a PERFECT coil or a coil has small distributed self-capacitance (like a toroid with no external fields in Yuri and Barry's examples) current HAS to be equal at each terminal. There can be no other result (watch Yuri snip part of this to use).

In a REAL coil occupying physical length that terminates into nothing (ALL of the distributed capacitance at the end of the antenna is in the coil) the current would have to reach zero at the end, and the current in the coil would have a taper based on the series reactance and shunt capacitance to the outside world. The taper would be increase somewhat smoothly as you moved up in the coil, all or most of the current would NOT be in the first few turns.

In the real world loading coils are between those two extremes. If the coil occupies and insignifcant area compared to the rest of the antenna so its self-capactance to the outside world is small compared to the antenna area above the coil, the current taper is insignificant. If the coil is large and distributed over a large area and its distributed capaciatnce to the outside world is large compared to the antenna above the coil, it would have a significant current taper.

In neither of these cases would coil Q become unimportant nor would current significantly taper in the first few turns. Taper would ALWAYS be a function of the ratio of impedance looking outwards towards the remaining area of antenna and the shunt impedance caused by capacitance of the physcial area occupied by the coil. If there are no external fields, there can be no taper.

Please don't let ANYONE else, especially a nasty attitude and personal grudge, tell you what I said or meant to say.

As for the example of coils bending at the bottom given a few replies up, the can be several reasons for that. Mechanical force can be different, heat conduction can be different, there could be large coil capacitance compared to termination capacitance, etc.

We really wouldn't know, and reaching any conclusion with knowing all of the related variables is like using numerology or the Zodiac to predict health, wealth, or happiness.

In conclusion, let's let everyone speak for themselves. What I said is on record. What Yuri said is on record. What Yuri said I said, or what I said Yuri said, is not always what the other guy actually meant or even what he said. This is especially true with people who like to play word games rather than undertsand how things work.

Everyone should speak for themselves, and not write in an uncontrolled emotional state. These are technical issues, not a matter of person.

Please don't let anyone speak for me.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by K3BU on January 7, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Tom, W8JI, wants to be "right" and have a last word, twisting things around (again):>> <<

>>First of all no one has said the current can't change in a real loading coil. Please NEVER let Yuri (or anyone else) tell you what I said. READ THE RESPONSES YOURSELF. <<

Here is the W8JI conclusion at the end of his article and subject of the controversy:

"Conclusion
A normally functioning inductor has essentially equal currents throughout the inductor, loading coils are no exception. Any current difference requires a substantial current flow through undesired stray capacitances or leakage currents. Neither radiation or induction could change this, it is a basic rule of circuitry.
In a reasonably well-designed system, current into and out of the loading inductor should be substantially equal."

I say, it is substantially different, in order of 40 - 60% in a typical antenna loading coil, like on 80m center loaded mobile whip.

>>What Yuri does is extract a few parts of phrases from dozens of posts, and snip it down to what he wants me to say. <<

Yea, I made you to say that, right? Nice twist!

>>What I (and most other people) have said all along is the current reduction is a function of physical size and distributed capaciatnce of the coil. It cannot, as Yuri claims, taper in an inductor that does not have significant physical size compared to the rest of the antenna. It cannot taper in a toroid with NO external fields. <<

So what are you saying? It does or it doesn't? We are talking about the typical loading coil, like in 80m mobile antenna that is quarter wave electrical length. We claim that the current is different (in order of 40 - 60%) between the top and bottom of the coil. You claim, without mumbo-jumbo, that it can't be. So decide what are you saying and stop childish games.

>>What Yuri (and perhaps Barry through Yuri)state is most of the current is in the first few turns, and that is why coil Q is unimportant. That's not true. The reason coil Q is somewhat less important than we might think is the ground losses and other colaterial losses ar so igh. <<

That is not the subject of discussion. Current in the coil is, Q is the side effect that is not important in THIS discussion, so leave it alone. Stop putting words in our mouth.

>>In a PERFECT coil or a coil has small distributed self-capacitance (like a toroid with no external fields in Yuri and Barry's examples) current HAS to be equal at each terminal. There can be no other result (watch Yuri snip part of this to use).<<

I will leave it here, as the rest of it. W7EL, author of EZNEC measured toroid coil and found that it HAS different current at its ends, roughly proportional to the part of antenna that it replaces.

>>In a REAL coil occupying physical length that terminates into nothing (ALL of the distributed capacitance at the end of the antenna is in the coil) the current would have to reach zero at the end, and the current in the coil would have a taper based on the series reactance and shunt capacitance to the outside world. The taper would be increase somewhat smoothly as you moved up in the coil, all or most of the current would NOT be in the first few turns. <<

Nobody said that the current is in first few turns (it is gradually diminishing as per cosine curve), you are making things up in order to ridicule and get around the subject and later to emerge that you said all along that the current can be different (because it is).

>>In the real world loading coils are between those two extremes. If the coil occupies and insignifcant area compared to the rest of the antenna so its self-capactance to the outside world is small compared to the antenna area above the coil, the current taper is insignificant. If the coil is large and distributed over a large area and its distributed capaciatnce to the outside world is large compared to the antenna above the coil, it would have a significant current taper. <<

That is very small part of the contribution to the diminishing current. The real reason for decreasing current are the standing waves on the antenna, just as they are on a straight piece of wire.

>>In neither of these cases would coil Q become unimportant nor would current significantly taper in the first few turns. Taper would ALWAYS be a function of the ratio of impedance looking outwards towards the remaining area of antenna and the shunt impedance caused by capacitance of the physical area occupied by the coil. If there are no external fields, there can be no taper. <<

Again, Q is not the subject of discussion. You tried to model the zero size coil in EZNEC and you got erroneous results. You can't model zero physical size coil in EZNEC. Try to replace the coil of particular inductance with linear loading stub of the same inductance and see what the EZNEC says then. No change in current? Show us! I hope you agree that coil and loading stub perform the same function - loading the antenna and causing the same behavior of current at their terminals.

>>Please don't let ANYONE else, especially a nasty attitude and personal grudge, tell you what I said or meant to say. <<

I don't have personal grudge, I simply will not take your ridicule especially when you are dead wrong and perpetuating your "teachings". Anyone can go back and follow the threads and see the progression of "nasty" and who started it. You would be better off if you disputed the facts and engaged in discussion, rather than ridiculing and pontificating. I am waiting to see how long it will take you to twist out of this one and become guru on why the current IS different at the ends of the loading coils. About 6 months is your track record?

>>As for the example of coils bending at the bottom given a few replies up, the can be several reasons for that. Mechanical force can be different, heat conduction can be different, there could be large coil capacitance compared to termination capacitance, etc. <<

Yea, right, in perfectly uniform coils, with uniform forms, with uniform wire? Only in your excuses dictionary.

>>We really wouldn't know, and reaching any conclusion with knowing all of the related variables is like using numerology or the Zodiac to predict health, wealth, or happiness. <<

Not you using wrong "laws" for wrong case. You can't use closed circuit analysis in open circuits with SWR along the radiator.

>>In conclusion, let's let everyone speak for themselves. What I said is on record. What Yuri said is on record. What Yuri said I said, or what I said Yuri said, is not always what the other guy actually meant or even what he said. This is especially true with people who like to play word games rather than undertsand how things work. <<

Anyone can follow the threads and see who said what, no need to teach that. So I play word games and don't understand how things work? Here we go again.

>>Everyone should speak for themselves, and not write in an uncontrolled emotional state. These are technical issues, not a matter of person. <<

So stick to technical issue, discuss matters in a civil way and do not ridicule others especially if you are wrong and do not understand what is going on. You will only make yourself look silly and unprofessional.

>>Please don't let anyone speak for me.<<

You do that very well, there is no need for that. Admit that you COULD be wrong and learn from it. Now you will go and spent dime to twist facts to make them come your way, but the reality is one, anyone can measure and verify things and see for themselves. There was extensive thread on rec.radio.amateur.antenna newsgroup where W7EL, W5DXP and others explained what is going on, and also showed that you are wrong. W7EL will tell you that you cannot model coils in EZNEC as you did.


>>73 Tom<<

73 Yuri
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 8, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI said:
"What I (and most other people) have said all along is the current reduction is a function of physical size and distributed capaciatnce of the coil. It cannot, as Yuri claims, taper in an inductor that does not have significant physical size compared to the rest of the antenna. It cannot taper in a toroid with NO external fields."

What is apparently being missed here is the fact that there are two currents flowing through that toroid when it is used for loading on a standing wave antenna. There is no taper for the forward current and there is no taper for the reflected current. But the delay through the toroid causes a taper in the total current which is the sum of the forward and reflected currents. This is explained at the bottom of my web page at:

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/current.htm

73, Cecil, W5DXP
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Your explaination is not correct Cecil, at least in the system I tested.

That system was a 40 meter antenna only about 6-7 feet tall, so it had plenty of "standing waves".

I measured a toroid in such a system, and the current was as near eaqual as I could resolve with a 2" meter scale.

The data is up at:

http://www.w8ji.com/mobile_and_loaded_antenna.htm

It's unfortunate this whole issue got so personal, but I'm 100% confident I can prove beyond any doubt that the dominant effect is distributed capacitance and that the current taper in an antenna is no different than the behavior of a coil in any other system of similar impedances.

I can absolutely beyond a doubt prove it, and it is VERY repeatable.

Yuri's time, and your time if you thing current in a small toroid replacing the loading coil in a mobile antenna tapers from "standing waves", would have been better spent on fractals or on CFA antenna design.

:-)

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Yuri,

I just spoke to Roy Lewallen W7EL, and his impression of what you were saying is the same as mine. Roy said he understood you to claim current taper had something to do with the "electrical degrees" the coil replaces. He used the example that a 45 degree antenna would have a 45 degree taper in the coil, based on the "electrical degrees" of antenna length replaced by the coil.

Roy also told me he measured antennas, found no disagreement with what I said.

Roy has agreed to forward his measurements, and I'll post them. He said he would be a little embarrassed to put them up on his website because he thinks it is like posting proof that Ohm's Law actually works.

While I don't expect either you or Cecil to change your tune, I think it is important that people understand how these simple systems work. Many people rely on things they see in articles to work on their equipment, and I'd hate people to think the current flowing out one terminal can be different than the current flowing in another terminal without a substantial third path for current.

In a loading coil that path is the stray capacitance from the coil to the media outside that coil. It has nothing to do with the electrical degrees you use, or the standing waves Cecil uses. A coil with low capacitance to "earth" or objects around the coil compared to the termination impedance of the coil by the antenna above the coil has essentially equal currents. With a toroid well above the vehicle chassis, current was equal at both ends. With a reasonable size inductor, it was a few percent. With a large long inductor, it was quite noticeable.

That's exactly as predicted by theory, and what Roy and I both measured.

If you or Cecil find something different, I strongly suggest you don't bother arguing with me. I suggest you submit the work for peer review by an engineering group like the IEEE. Certainly the IEEE would be interested in proving Kirchoff, Faraday, Maxwell, or other conventional circuit theories to be wrong.

It's very important we get all our textbooks corrected, if indeed they need corrected.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
>While I don't expect either you or Cecil to change your
>tune, I think it is important that people understand
>how these simple systems work. Many people rely on
>things they see in articles to work on their equipment,
>and I'd hate people to think the current flowing out one
>terminal can be different than the current flowing in
>another terminal without a substantial third path for
>current.

So never mind that John D. Kraus disagrees with you? Take a look at
Figure 23-21(b) on page 824 of _Antennas_For_All_Applications, by
Kraus & Marhefka, 3rd edition. It shows coils being used to shift
the phase of the current by 180 degrees through it. That means that
current is flowing into both ends of the coil at the same time.
Do you think Kraus' antenna violates Kirchhoff's laws?

Quoting the text: "A coil can also act as a 180 degree phase shifter
as in the collinear array of 4 in-phase 1/2WL elements in Fig. 23-21(b).
Here the elements present a high impedance to the coil which may be
resonated withoput an external capacitance due to its distributed
capacitance. The coil may also be thought of as a coiled-up 1/2WL
element." Here's what the current looks like in order to achieve
a 180 degree phase shift.

--------->-COIL-<---------
........Iin........Iout

Roy's data clearly illustrates the phase shift through the coil.
ARCCOS(Iout/Iin) gives an estimate of the phase shift (assuming
forward current and reflected current are of equal magnitude).
In Roy's experiment, Iout/Iin was about 0.95. ARCCOS(0.95) equals
18 degrees, an approximation for the phase shift through the
coil.

Also take a look at the current distribution for Fig. 23-21(a)
for I at F1. It clearly illustrates the current drop across the
traps. These two figures are reproduced at the bottom of my
web page at: http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/current.htm
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
> Your explaination is not correct Cecil, at least in the system I tested.

I can set up three systems. One has equal currents. One has the input
current greater than the output current. One has the output current
greater than the input current.

Even the results of your testing supports Yuri's argument. For every
result except the toroid, you proved that the current in is NOT equal
to the current out. I suspect you positioned a current maximum point
within the toroid which, of course, equalizes the magnitudes of the
currents while reversing the phase. Delay is another explanation,
covered below.

> That system was a 40 meter antenna only about 6-7 feet tall, so it had
> plenty of "standing waves". I measured a toroid in such a system, and the
> current was as near equal as I could resolve with a 2" meter scale.

The input current can be greater than, equal to, or less than the output
current depending upon the phasing involved. Kraus says we can get a 180
degree phase shift from a single coil. THAT'S CURRENT FLOWING INTO BOTH
ENDS OF THE COIL AT THE SAME TIME. That blows your theory all to heck.
My Diamond uhf antenna contains one of those 180 degree phase shifting
coils. Maybe you should tell Diamond that their antenna cannot work.

If a current maximum point is located in the middle of your toroid,
then, of course, the magnitude of the current in will equal the magnitude
of the current out. Exactly what was the feedpoint impedance using the
toroid? Was the system resonant?

Did you measure the delay through your toroid without the presence of
standing waves? If so, what was it? That delay is equal to a phase shift.
No amount of mucking with the measurements can change that delay. If that
delay is very small then the sum of the forward current and reflected
current would be close to equal at each end of the toroid. Take a look
at the explanation on my web page. It shows a coil with a 45 degree delay.
If the delay on a different coil is one degree, the differences in the two
currents would be one degree, i.e. negligible. Perhaps, that is what you
are seeing. Knowing the delay through your toroid, sans reflections, could
explain everything.

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/current.htm

> Yuri's time, and your time if you think current in a small toroid replacing
> the loading coil in a mobile antenna tapers from "standing waves", would have
> been better spent on fractals or on CFA antenna design. :-)

Can't your argument stand alone without a dirty dig? :-)

Please reference page 824 in _Antennas_For_All_Applications_ by Kraus & Marhefka,
3rd edition. This stuff is all explained there including phase-reversing coils,
current drops across coils, etc.
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
>W5DXP wrote:
>>What is apparently being missed here is the fact that there are two
>>currents flowing through that toroid when it is used for loading on
>>a standing wave antenna. There is no taper for the forward current
>>and there is no taper for the reflected current. But the delay through
>>the toroid causes a taper in the total current which is the sum of the
>>forward and reflected currents.

W8JI wrote:
> Your explaination is not correct Cecil, at least in the system I tested.

I want to expand on this subject which is also covered on my web page.

There is a forward current into the loading coil and a reflected
current out of the loading coil at the bottom of the coil. There
is a forward current out of the loading coil and a reflected current
into the coil at the top of the coil.

Total current at the bottom of the coil = Ifwd(in) + Iref(out)

Total current at the top of the coil = Ifwd(out) + Iref(in)

There exists a delay through the coil that can be specified in
degrees. This delay causes Ifwd(out) to lag Ifwd(in) by that
specified number of degrees. The delay also causes Iref(out)
to lag Iref(in) by that specified number of degrees.

Assume that Ifwd(in) and Iref(out) are in phase.

If the delay through the coil is one degree, the net current
out will almost equal the net current in. (This is probably
true of Tom's toroid) This does not prove the math to be
incorrect.

If the delay through the coil is 45 degrees, the net current
out will be 0.707 of the net current in. (This seems to be
true for one of Tom's measurements)

If the delay through the coil is 90 degrees, the net current
out will be zero. (Helical 1/4WL antenna)

If the delay through the coil is 180 degrees, current will
be flowing into both ends of the coil at the same time. (This
is used for phased co-linear arrays)

I haven't seen anything that would prove my explanation to
be incorrect. If the current through the toroid doesn't
change appreciably, it simply means that the delay in
degrees through the toroid is very small.

I also don't know how the subject got twisted around to toroids.
The original subject was loading coils for mobile antennas and
Tom's own measurements prove that the current out is NOT equal
to the current in for real-world mobile loading coils.
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W7EL asked me to post the following.



Tom,
Thanks very much for sending the copy of the posting. I'd appreciate it
very much if you'd post the following on the same reflector for me:

------

It was brought to my attention that the following statement was recently
posted on this reflector by Yuri:

"I will leave it here, as the rest of it. W7EL, author of EZNEC measured
toroid coil and found that it HAS different current at its ends, roughly
proportional to the part of antenna that it replaces."

This is not true. I assume the statement was made due to careless
reading of the postings I made on rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rather than
a deliberate distortion, so I'll very briefly describe the results again
here. I made measurements of the current into and out of two different
toroids in series with an antenna at its base. The first measurement was
made using a 33 foot vertical with seven ground radials, whose feedpoint
impedance measured 35 - j185 ohms at 3.8 MHz, and a toroidal inductor
with reactance of 193 ohms and Q a bit over 300. I found that the
difference in current between input and output of the inductor was 3.1%
in magnitude and with no measurable phase shift, despite the short
antenna. The 3.1% current difference between input and output can be
explained simply by 6.8 pF of stray capacitance between the coil output
and ground and/or current probe, or a bit greater value distributed over
the coil. I repeated the measurement on the bench, with a series
resistor and capacitor in place of the antenna, and measured 2.3%
difference between input and output current. This is within measurement
error of being the same as when connected to the antenna. (One would
expect the stray C to be a bit different, also.) So in the one case I
did the measurement with the inductor "replacing" a very significant
part of an antenna and in the other with the inductor replacing no
antenna at all (or an entire antenna, if you choose), and got
essentially the same result. How this can be interpreted as my having
drawn the conclusion stated by Yuri is beyond me.

Unfortunately, the fact that the antenna is spaced only about 1/4" from
a 4 foot mounting pipe (which altered its input impedance), in addition
to the abbreviated ground system, left a great deal of wiggle room for
people proposing alternate theories, so I did a second test with a more
idealized antenna. For this test I constructed a vertical antenna that
was 33 feet high, made of #16 insulated wire, and strung 23 radials out
on the surface of the wet ground. The feedpoint impedance of this
antenna at 3.8 MHz was measured as 15.8 - j437 ohms. This is close to
the theoretical impedance, assuming about 8 ohms of ground loss
resistance. The inductor had a reactance of 387 ohms. As described in my
posting on rraa of November 11, the inductor "replaces" about 33
electrical degrees of the antenna.

The result from the second test was a current difference of 5.4%, again
with no measurable phase shift. And again, this small difference can be
explained by about the same amount of stray capacitance. It's nowhere
near the 16+% that the "cosine rule" (that the output current equals the
cosine of the "replaced" antenna) proposed by Yuri and others would
predict. In no way did my measurement validate his theory -- 5.4% isn't
even "roughly" more than 16%.

Frankly, I'm a bit embarrassed to have bothered to make these
measurements at all -- it's a lot like making careful measurements to
validate Ohm's law in order to refute someone's measurements that
"prove" it wrong. As it is, it's turned out to be even worse than just a
waste of time, since the results are now being distorted to support the
very theory they clearly refute. I hope this will clarify just what
measurements I made and what they showed.

For anyone who can stomach the waffling, backpedaling, and insults which
characterized the original discussion, look up the thread "Re: Current
in antenna loading coils controversy" and its variants in the google
archives of rec.radio.amateur.antenna. Postings describing my
measurements were made between November 8 and 11, 2003. If you read the
thread, particularly the reaction to my posting of the measurements,
you'll see why I've given up on that newsgroup as a forum for rational
communication.

Many thanks to Tom, W8JI for bringing the misleading quote to my
attention and for posting this for me.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

-----------------


So we see from the above, a second reliable engineer who made measurements independently of me came up with the same data I did, none of which agrees with Cecil's or Yuri's claims.

When two measurements made independently by two different methods agree, with neither person influencing the other, it is compelling. Especially compared to speculation and insults.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Cecil,

Apparently you have never taken time to read what I actually said, and what Barry Booth W9UCW and Yuri said.

I never said the current couldn't be different, I simply said it has nothing to do with the "electrical degrees" as Yuri and you propose.

Very plainly the inductor in the mobile antenna I tested (which is was only a 3ft base, a three inch coil area, and a two foot top terminated in a small hat) is nowhere close to resonant on 40 without the inductor. As a matter of fact, the antenna self-resonance is about 20MHz, which means the antenna is electrically 11ft long on 20MHz. This is about 30 degrees long on 7 MHz, or 60 degrees short of a 1/4 wl antenna.

Despite the fact the electrical length "replaced" by the loading coil is about 60 degrees, there was only about 3 percent difference in current going into the coil and current coming out in Roy's measurements and NONE in mine with a toroid. Yuri claimed a toroid has significant current taper, and that was clearly false.

With a conventional small coil, Roy and I both measured about the same taper. Still only a few percent.

Roy using one test setup, and myself using another, found data shows any notion current change having something to do with electrical length is unfounded.

It not only doesn't work in theory, it doesn't work in practice.

Frankly like Roy I am a little embarrassed to have to argue something as simple as how an inductor works. I really don't care if you or Yuri think there is some voodoo involved. I just don't want any person intentionally misrepresenting what I or others (like Roy Lewallen) say.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Cecil,
>
> Apparently you have never taken time to read what I actually said,
> and what Barry Booth W9UCW and Yuri said.

I came in late on the thread and have not read all the postings except
for yours. Please don't assume that I agree with Barry and Yuri 100%.
Here is one of your assertions picked at random:

> In a normal mobile or home antenna with even a somewhat reasonable
> loading coil design, the current is immeasurably different at each end.

Besides your one special case toroidal coil example, every measured configuration has
the currents *measurably different* at each end. Measure the delay through
your toroidal coil and I will calculate that difference for you since
you are unable to measure it. There is no such thing as a real-world
coil with a zero propagation delay! Your above statement is false as
are a number of your other statements. I hate to waste bandwidth quoting
your false statements, but here are some of them:

> ... compared to
> antennas with proper inductors like the Bugcatcher, which has
> almost perfectly equal currents at each end.

A Bugcatcher is not a toroidal coil. The magnitude and/or phase
of the two currents is NOT "almost perfectly equal".

> In a well-designed system, the current is almost perfectly uniform.

All "well-designed systems" use toroidal coils? :-)

> 2.) In a normal mobile or home antenna with even a somewhat reasonable
> loading coil design, the current is immeasurably different at each end.
> For all practical purposes, it is identical because a common properly
> working current meter would never resolve the difference.

Your "common properly working current meter" proves it is measurably
different except for one special case toroidal coil.

> It (current) is exactly equal in a two terminal component, and in a
> typical reasonably mounted and constructed loading coil there is only
> a modest current reduction at best.

The 180 degree phase-reversing coil in Kraus' phased array is a
two terminal component which is small compared to the 1.5WL of
the wire in the antenna. The currents have opposite phases. Is
Kraus wrong?

> Model an antenna with EZnec, and look at the load.

Note: EZNEC makes an assumption about lumped inductive loads that is
not valid for real-world coils. EZNEC cannot be used to prove anything
about real-world coils. It seems obvious that you didn't know that at
the time you posted the above.

> The rule is this:
> Coil current is essentially equal at both ends, as long as the coil
> is not long compared to the length of the antenna.
>
> THE VOLTAGE can be (and is) different on each end of the inductor,
> NOT the current.
>
> Unless the coil has
> considerable length compared to the antenna length, it has the
> essentially the same current in one terminal as out the other.
>
> The CORRECT current distribution is shown in the ARRL Antenna
> Handbook in 16-6 figure 9 of the 18th Edition.

Note that an earlier figure (Fig 7 in the 15th edition) contradicts
the above. There is always a current step-function across a real-
world loading coil used in a physically short 1/4WL antenna. Your
quoted figure is the one that is wrong and needs to be corrected.

> Displacement current over the length of a small fractional wavelength
> loading coil that is not operated near self-resonance is minimal to
> the point of being immeasurable.

You *measured* it on *every* configuration except the toroidal coil.
Roy even *measured* it on a toroidal coil.

> When it (inductor) is a series circuit, the voltage increases and
> current remains constant.

This is what you posted and apparently once believed. Your own measurements
prove this to be a false statement. The current remaining constant in both
magnitude and phase violates the laws of physics.

> Unlike some have claimed, Eznec and Spice models MUST calculate currents
> accurately or the results are grossly wrong.

As has been proven, EZNEC does not calculate currents accurately.
I have EZNEC files to prove that if anyone wants them. One simply
cannot model a phase-reversing coil using EZNEC's lumped inductance.

> The current flowing in must equal sum of currents out.

Nope, in a phase-reversing coil, the current flowing in can be
one amp into each end (zero current flowing out). This was your
original basic mistake - using lumped circuit theory on a distributed
network problem.

> In a properly designed system with the coil reasonably far from self-resonance,
> the current would be essentially equal at both ends unless the coil was very
> long compared to antenna length.

In your measurements, your coils are NOT "very long" compared to the
antenna length. A Bugcatcher coil is NOT "very long" compared to the
antenna length.

> I never said the current couldn't be different, I simply said it has
> nothing to do with the "electrical degrees" as Yuri and you propose.

Apparently, you have never taken time to read what I actually said.
I said every real-world coil has a delay through it and that delay
affects the superposition of the forward and reflected currents. On
my web page, I give an example of a coil with a 45 degree delay. It
seems obvious to me that delay can be almost anything except zero.
Believing that the delay through a coil can be zero violates the
laws of physics. Please don't confuse what Yuri has said with what
I have said.

> Despite the fact the electrical length "replaced" by the loading coil is
> about 60 degrees, there was only about 3 percent difference in current going
> into the coil and current coming out in Roy's measurements and NONE in mine
> with a toroid.

I gave you the formula for calculating the degrees occupied by the coil.
ArcCos(0.97) is 14 degrees. I didn't say it would be 60 degrees. I said
the degrees occupied by the coil can be estimated using ArcCos(Iout/Iin).
Incidentally, if the magnitude and phase of the current into and the
current out of your toroid are equal, your toroid violates the laws
of physics.

If there is no difference in current going into and out of your coil,
then there is zero delay through the coil. But there is a delay through
*every* real-world coil. Whatever that delay is, it affects the sum of
the forward and reflected currents. If your feedpoint impedance is
slightly inductive, a current maximum point exists inside the toroid
and could explain your unusual measurements. In that case, the magnitude
of the currents could be equal but the phases would be opposite.

> With a conventional small coil, Roy and I both measured about the same taper.
> Still only a few percent.

You said: "... the current is immeasurably different at each end." Now you
admit that you and Roy MEASURED it. Both statements cannot be true.

> Frankly like Roy I am a little embarrassed to have to argue something as simple
> as how an inductor works.

Frankly, I am embarrassed that a well educated and otherwise knowledgable
engineer once believed the following statement: "In a normal mobile or home antenna
with even a somewhat reasonable loading coil design, the current is immeasurably
different at each end.", and now won't even admit that statement/belief was
false even though the currents have been proven to be measurable. The discussion
had to be diverted from a normal bugcatcher mobile loading coil to a hardly-ever-
used-for-mobile toroidal coil to try to save face.

In short, for every real-world coil, there is a difference in the magnitude
and/or phase of the net current-in compared to the net current-out. To
maintain that the current-in is ever equal in magnitude and phase to the
current-out in a real-world Bugcatcher coil is simply wrong.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Cecil,

Playing childish word games doesn't prove you are correct.

If you think propagation time delay has something to do with current taper, then you are welcome to your opinion. But I think you should prove it.

Factually I replaced 60 degrees of antenna with a lumped component, and saw NO current taper at all that I could measure. The current taper I did see in other loading systems was proportional to the distributed capacitance along the coil, and the termination impedance. That's what my data shows, that's what W7EL's data shows. Both measurements were totally independent and both closely agree.

Maybe it is time for you to build a system that behaves like you claim, instead of asking other to do that or playing "he said you said" games.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
> Playing childish word games doesn't prove you are correct.

Your own data proves that I am correct.

Those aren't word games, Tom. Those are your quotes. Your
own measured results disprove your earlier assertions. You
must have asserted twenty times that there is no, or NONE,
or negligible, or unmeasurable taper in the current through a
loading coil. Yet you measured the very tapers you earlier
denied exist.

Congratulations, you learned something worthwhile and can stop
spreading those ridiculous old wives' tales that distributed
network components act just like lumped components and you can
stop using EZNEC to prove anything about real-world coils. I
see you have corrected your web page - that's good.

> If you think propagation time delay has something to do with
> current taper, then you are welcome to your opinion. But I
> think you should prove it.

You allude to reflected waves in your postings. The laws of
physics say the net current in a standing wave antenna is
the superposition of the forward current wave with the
reflected current wave. That's not opinion, that's scientific
fact. Your words are not going to change the accepted laws
of physics. Your data agrees with what I have said so you
have proved it for me.

> Factually I replaced 60 degrees of antenna with a lumped
> component, and saw NO current taper at all that I could
> measure.

Because you positioned the current maximum point inside the
toroidal coil. Whether that was accidental or deliberate,
only you know. Since the current magnitude through your
toroidal coil was equal, the phases have to be opposite.
You conveniently didn't measure the phase. The laws of
physics say that either the magnitude or phase or both
magnitude and phase must be different through a real-world
coil in the presence of both forward waves and reflected
waves. That condition requires a distributed network
analysis. You have proven that a lumped component analysis
will not work.

If you will remove turns from the toroidal coil until the feedpoint
impedance is slightly capacitive, you will no doubt get the
same results as Roy, ~3% of current taper. How much taper exists
in a coil depends upon its location in the network. It is
possible to position it for zero magnitude taper which is
what I suspect you did.

> The current taper I did see in other loading systems
> was proportional to the distributed capacitance along the coil,
> and the termination impedance.

But Tom, you have been asserting loud and long that there is
no current taper in a coil. You said there is "NONE" and
capitalized "NONE" for effect. Your own experiments prove
there is always a current taper (except possibly in one special
case). That is enough to prove your earlier assertions are false.

> That's what my data shows, that's
> what W7EL's data shows. Both measurements were totally independent
> and both closely agree.

And both show a current taper, something you denied the existence of.
You have proved there is no such thing as a zero current taper through
a coil exposed to reflections which contradicts your earliest assertions
of "no", "NONE", "negligible", or "unmeasurable" current tapers.

> Maybe it is time for you to build a system that behaves like you
> claim, instead of asking other to do that or playing "he said you
> said" games.

The system you built behaves like I claim so I don't have to do
anything except point to your web page. Your data proves that
I was right. All real world coils possess a current taper including
your toroidal coil. Either the current maximum point is inside the
toroidal coil or your equipment is not sensitive enough to make an
accurate measurement. Move that current maximum point outside the
coil and make the measurements again. I suspect you are presently
being fooled by opposite current phases.
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Your posts are too long!

Tell me how to make the toroid show the phase shift you claim.

Either that, or build one for me and I'll measure it.

The mechanics I understand of a coil are that flux linkage prevents one end from having a "delay" in current from the other end. Of course if the inductor is very long and has incomplete flux linkage, it can indeed have delay. Delay lines,for example, are constructed from parallel wires. The second wire opposes magnetic flux from the first, and the result is minimal flux linkage. In this case large delays can be obtained.

What I'd like you to do is tell me how to make a mobile loading coil have a large amount of delay, while not being physically distributed so flux linkage from end-to-end is low.

If you can tell me how to do that, or supply one, I'll agree with you.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
>Tell me how to make the toroid show the phase shift you claim.

I just did, Tom, in the paragraph above. Remove turns from the toroid coil until the feedpoint impedance is
slightly capacitive. That will ensure that the current maximum point is outside of the coil. Then you will
probably measure the same taper as Roy did on his toroidal coil. If you want a bigger percentage taper,
locate the coil 2/3 of the way up the antenna. If you want to observe an infinite taper use the coil as a
top hat.

>The mechanics I understand of a coil are that flux linkage prevents one end from having a "delay" in
>current from the other end.

Wonder how Kraus' phase-reversing coil ever manages to work with a zero delay? :-) Wonder if your toroidal
coil has a self-resonant frequency? :-)

There's a delay even in a straight wire. All real-world coils have a delay through them. You can
measure that delay in a circuit without reflections. At any one frequency, that delay will show up in degrees.
At Intel, we installed coils in current paths to delay the rise times.

> Of course if the inductor is very long and has incomplete flux linkage, it can indeed have delay.

All real-world coils have a delay. Please define "very long". Is a one foot long Bugcatcher coil "very long"?
I would say no, it isn't "very long".

>What I'd like you to do is tell me how to make a mobile loading coil have a large amount of delay,
>while not being physically distributed so flux linkage from end-to-end is low.

The delay is what it is. Just put a Bugcatcher coil in a circuit without reflections and measure it.
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Cecil,

Sorry, but when I removed turns from the toriod the current wasn't different at all. I did that as a process of tuning the coil. There was one point and only one point where the coil was resonant.

Also a small dimension air inductor shows almost no current change, certainly within error limits of my meters.

I'm afraid you'll have to build a coil that behaves like you claim, because I sure can't!!

Here is what Roy Lewallen recently posted on rec.radio.amateur.antenna:

I really begrudge the necessity of posting once more on this newsgroup,
and particularly on this thread. However, I'm dismayed and disgusted by
postings being made by Yuri and Cecil in other forums in which they're
claiming that measurements I made agree with theories and predictions
they allegedly made, and that my measurements therefore validate their
theories. (A quick scan of this thread shows that they even made the
false claims here, after I had quit posting.)

One of the postings is the following, made by Yuri on the eHam TowerTalk
group, Nov. 21, topic "Trap Resonance":

"Why don't you mention what W5DXP came up as explanation for Tom's
errors, why don't you mention what W7EL measured and that it was what I
predicted based on available information and was right on - the 5%
difference for the base loading coil?"

and this one, posted by Yuri on the EHam.net forum topic "Re: Current in
Antenna Loading Coils" on Jan. 7:

"I will leave it here, as the rest of it. W7EL, author of EZNEC measured
toroid coil and found that it HAS different current at its ends, roughly
proportional to the part of antenna that it replaces."

and this one, posted by Cecil on that same group on Jan. 12:

"Roy's data clearly illustrates the phase shift through the coil.
ARCCOS(Iout/Iin) gives an estimate of the phase shift (assuming
forward current and reflected current are of equal magnitude).
In Roy's experiment, Iout/Iin was about 0.95. ARCCOS(0.95) equals
18 degrees, an approximation for the phase shift through the
coil."

As you'll see below (or by looking up the original thread), the first of
my two measurements, for an antenna shortened an equivalent of about 18
degrees, resulted in 3% current attenuation across the coil (not 5%),
and zero phase shift (not 18 degrees). The second test, where the
antenna was shortened more than 33 degrees, measured 5% current
reduction and no phase shift. The method used in the above quote
predicts more than 16% amplitude reduction and 33 degrees of phase shift
for the second test. There's no way my data "clearly illustrates"
Cecil's explanation. To say that it does is a pure fabrication.

I feel compelled to respond to these fabrications, and put the record
straight. I'll do it here, since this is where my measurements were
originally posted.

I made two sets of measurements of the current into and out of a
toroidal inductor at the base of a vertical antenna. The details of the
measurement method and the measurement results were posted here, on this
newsgroup, on this thread. Pictures of the setup were posted on my web
site, with a link posted here.

Before I posted each set of measurements, I asked for predictions of the
results, so that alternate theories could be tested. (I was criticized
for doing this -- it seems that the preferred method of testing a theory
is to look at the results first, then adjust the theory to fit.) Yuri
made a prediction (actually, two different ones) for the first set of
measurements that didn't accurately predict the results. When I
calculated the predicted result for the second set of measurements using
the same method he had used for the first prediction, he retracted any
claim that the method would be valid. (Exact quotes are below.) He
didn't make any prediction at all for the second set of measurements.

Cecil made a number of vague predictions which he later contradicted or
retracted. At the time the second set of measurements were posted, he
had made no prediction at all.

Perhaps Yuri and Cecil have, after the measurements were posted,
developed theories to explain the results. As of the time the
measurements were posted, they hadn't. I highly recommend that anyone
considering their alternative theories to find where they have
calculated the results which agree with my measurements (particularly
the second one, which was designed to produce a testable difference),
and how they derived the equations used for the calculation.

Following is a summary of some of the exchanges between Yuri and me on
this thread last November. The entire thread, "Re: Current in antenna
loading coils controversy" and variants, is available for viewing at
groups.google.com.

------ Summary ------

Here's what really happened. The following quotes are directly from the
google archives of the rraa thread.

I made two sets of measurements. The first had the inductor connected at
the base of a 33 foot vertical. But the vertical was mounted about 1/4"
from a four foot pipe, which reduced the base reactance.

Here, I was asking for predictions for my FIRST measurement -- the one
with the vertical mounted on the pipe.

Yuri posted on Nov. 9:

"In that case,
If the feedpoint current was at 0 deg of the radiator length, and coil
replaces 18 deg of wire, the cos 18 deg = 0.951 which should make
difference, drop in the coil current 5% (or half, 2.5 deg?)
Providing current maximum is exactly at the bottom end of the coil."

and later on Nov. 9:

">Incidentally, I take it that your prediction for the setup I did measure
>includes an 18 degree phase shift of current from input to output of the
>inductor?
>
>Roy Lewallen, W7EL
>

Yes, I used Cecil estimate/calculation and taking
cos 18 = 0.951056516 which is 4.8943483%"

So now we have his prediction, using the "cosine rule". The measurement
I made showed about 3% current reduction from input to output, but with
about 2% (the same amount within measurement error) also occurring when
the antenna was replaced by a series resistor and capacitor -- that is,
no antenna at all. So the 5% prediction was wrong. His prediction of 18
degrees phase shift, which wasn't present, was also wrong. When asked
for the justification for the "cosine rule", he never offered any, so
its origin remains obscure.

However, I saw that the value was too small to be convincing, which is
why I devised the second test. The second test used a more ideal
antenna, with more of the antenna being "replaced" by the inductor. The
"cosine rule" would predict more than 16% reduction, and more than 33
degrees of phase shift.

Before I gave the results from the second measurement, I posted the
predictions which had been made, as I understood them. Since Yuri had
invoked the "cosine rule" for the first test, I naturally assumed it
would also apply to the second. (This is simply applying the equation
Yuri used in his Nov. 9 posting to the second antenna setup. It's also
the equation now being used by Cecil, as shown in his quote from the
eHam group.) So in my posting I said:

(Quote from my posting on Nov. 11):

"**Yuri's method predicts a reduction of output current magnitude of
16.5% and a phase shift of 33 degrees."

to which Yuri responded, also on Nov. 11:

"It is not my theory. My argument with W8JI and his followers: is the
current in typical loading coil in quarter wave radiator same at both
ends or does it drop with distance from the feedpoint. I have made
temperature observations, W9UCW measured the difference, W5DXP provided
some explanation. Based on Cecils analysis of data you provided, and on
my understanding of the phenomena I guestimated drop in current in your
setup. No theory, no mathematical procedure (yet) just attempt (using
degrees replaced by coil in a radiator) at explanation of what is
happening. I will measure things myself, try to verify previous
measurements and then come up with conclusions and "theory". So far
Cecils (and ON4UN book) theory seems to be closest to the truth. . . "

So now, Yuri has disclaimed the "cosine rule". /He made no other
prediction of the results of the second test./

In summary, Yuri first stated that the "cosine rule" can be used to
calculate the current drop. That would have predicted over 16% current
reduction in the second test. Then he retracted his claim that that
theory would work, before the results from the second test were posted,
and never made any other prediction. He never predicted the 5% result
which was measured, as he's now claiming.

And if you can find a numerical prediction anywhere in the thread which
Cecil made and stayed with, my hat's off to you. $100 goes to the first
person who can point to any prediction made by either Yuri or Cecil
before the second measurement results were posted that predicted second
measurement results of 5% magnitude and zero phase shift. (In the case
of Cecil, this would have to be a prediction that wasn't later modified
or retracted before the second set of results were posted.)

My measurement results are consistent with the fact that the currents
into and out of a physically small inductor are equal. The small
magnitude difference I measured can be explained by stray capacitance on
the order of 7 pF from the output to ground and/or the probe -- not an
unreasonable amount to expect. In no way do my measurements support the
odd theories being proposed by Cecil and Yuri, and any statement that
they do is completely false.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL



 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Tom,
This is getting ridiculous. I already explained to Roy that he did not measure the phase angle I was talking about. The angle that needed to be measured was the phase shift through the coil when reflections were NOT present just as I explained to you earlier. Roy did NOT measure that phase shift so he measured the wrong phase shift. Since the forward current and reflected currrent are approximately equal and rotating in opposite directions, the net current phase is approximately constant. We already knew that. Roy didn't have to measure it but he did which helped to prove the forward/reflected current explanation to be correct.

You admit above that Yuri predicted an 18 degree phase shift which corresponds exactly to the 5% difference in currents in Roy's second experiment. ArcCos(0.95) = ~18 degrees. His estimate could not have been any closer. Everything you and Roy have posted supports my explanation except for your special case toroidal coil. Thank you guys for your support even though you didn't fully understand.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
> Your posts are too long!

That's a good one, Tom, after your last post.

> I'm afraid you'll have to build a coil that behaves like you claim, because I sure can't!!

I'm disappointed in you, Tom. You are admitting in public that you cannot build the phase-reversing coils described by Kraus in _Antennas_? He says: "A coil can also act as a 180 degree phase shifter ..." You are not going to claim that a coil that shifts the current by 180 degrees has the same current at the top as at the bottom, are you? Coils can have any amount of phase shift. A standard bugcatcher coil has enough phase shift to "behave like I claim". Every one of your experimental coils "behaves like I claim" except for your special case toroidal coil.

Fact is, a phase-reversing coil has current flowing into both ends of the coil at the same time. What does Kirchhoff have to say about that? Would you say that the phased array described by Kraus using phase-reversing coils is impossible?

The original question was: Is the current at the bottom of a bugcatcher coil equal to the current at the top of the coil? The answer is NO!
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
We are talking about a loading coil operating well below self-resonance Cecil.

Why all the waffeling and wordspeak?

Build a loading coil that is not near self internal resonance and measure it. I'm sure if you are a correct as you "claim" you can do that.

Your suggestion of pulling turns off the toriod doesn't work. What is your excuse for that?

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
> We are talking about a loading coil operating well below self-resonance Cecil.

It still has resistance, inductance, and capacitance. In the real-world, you simply cannot get rid of that capacitance. EVERY experiment performed by you and Roy with air-core coils yielded the current taper predicted by me. Now you are trying to convince yourself and the rest of the world that there was no current taper even though you and Roy measured it.

> Why all the waffeling and wordspeak?

You are the one trying to convince us there is no current taper after you and Roy measured current taper. What's up with that? Either a current taper exists (my side) or it doesn't (your side). Your results with air-core coils clearly indicate a current taper for EVERY test. After all that, trying to convince anyone that there is no current taper is delusional.

>Build a loading coil that is not near self internal resonance and measure it. I'm sure if you are a correct as you "claim" you can do that.

I don't have to do that since your experimental data supports the scientific fact that there is a current taper in EVERY air-core coil tested. How can you ignore the results of your own experiments?

>Your suggestion of pulling turns off the toriod doesn't work. What is your excuse for that?

I suspect the capacitance is so low that you are incapable of measuring the delay through the coil. If the delay through the coil is 5 degrees, the current out will be 0.996 of the current in. I don't think you are capable of 0.4% accuracy. It wouldn't surprise me if your accuracy was a magnitude worse than 0.4%.

In any case, hardly anyone uses a toroid as a loading coil for a mobile antenna. The original question was:

Is the current at the base of a real-world loading coil equal in magnitude and phase to the current into the stinger. You and Roy said yes, that anything else would violate Kirchhoff's laws. The rest of us said no. The correct answer is NO! Kirchhoff's circuit loop laws simply do not apply to distributed networks which is the message Yuri relayed to you from me long ago.

After all the hand-waving, smoke and mirrors, ad hominem attacks, old wives' tales, and sacred cows, the fact still remains. In a real-world mobile loading coil, the current-in is NOT the same magnitude and phase as the current-out.
--
73, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W8JI on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
After all the hand-waving, smoke and mirrors, ad hominem attacks, old wives' tales, and sacred cows, the fact still remains. In a real-world mobile loading coil, the current-in is NOT the same magnitude and phase as the current-out. >>>

I never said the current couldn't be different with a large coil.

I just described the correct rules, and why it happens or doesn't happen.

73 Tom
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by W5DXP on January 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI wrote:
> I never said the current couldn't be different with a large coil.

On 440 MHz, my Diamond mobile antenna accomplishes a 180 degree phase shift in the current with a 1/2 pinky-finger sized coil. :-)

> I just described the correct rules, and why it happens or doesn't happen.

We both know the rules but I think the current taper is larger than implied by your first postings and smaller than I thought at first. It's a good exchange when one party learns something. It's a great exchange when both parties learn something. Sorry if any feathers got ruffled. (You drove me to drink. :-)
--
take care, Cecil
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by KD5UJX on January 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have said it before and I'll say it again: Nothing is more entertaining than a bunch of EE's in a Pi$$ing contest, and the only thing they get wet is ther OWN shoes. Hi Hi :p

You guys slay me.

All this about the current distribution in a stupid coil for Christ's sake.

I can see the headlines now, CURRENT TAPERS IN LOADING COIL, STILL NO CURE FOR CANCER.

Keep it up, it makes my day.
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by VK3TCV on September 10, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It has got nothing do with this subject so stop critercising other peoples opinions
 
RE: Current in Antenna Loading Coils  
by VK3TCV on September 10, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It has got nothing do with this subject so stop critercising other peoples opinions
 
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