A New Century?

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A New Century?

Tony Randel (K6BBC) on October 23, 2003
View comments about this article!

I recently purchased a Yaesu FT 8900R for my Ford Explorer. Living in Los Angeles and commuting 90 miles a day, I hoped this little wonder of a radio would help pass the time and the miles. Now, after 2 months, the radio is on eBay. -- So why the sad outcome to a hopeful venture? In a modern metropolis of nearly 20 million where almost every repeater split on 2 and 440 are taken and with several excellent 6-meter repeaters serving Southern California, the bands are dead. The only repeater with consistent operation is the much-maligned 147.435 repeater. Although 435 is not a flavor for most, what the users of that eclectic machine do get right is the apparent lost art of communication.

My early days of VHF were on AM on the granddaddy of repeaters, K6MYK in the Hollywood Hills. In the late sixties, it was great fun. It was a community where everyone was welcome. We had interesting QSOs, lots of laughs, and many activities involving helping our fellow hams. We even had an on-air auction to help buy a disabled ham a new TV.

This all changed with the proliferation of FM and wall-to-wall repeaters. QSOs became shorter and more formal -- less conversational. This was the seventies. Now, today, there is little fun or excitement in the voices I heard over the past few months on VHF or UHF. Many hams, not all but a great number, will just ignore stations they do not know. These bands have devolved.

I believe it is time to reevaluate our great hobby. I have been outspoken about dropping the code. (Do we have to drag the code debate into every article? -- ed.) I have believed for many years that CW is a turn-off to perspective hams. I believe the ARRL needs to crawl into the 21^st Century and acknowledge there is an Internet and except eQSL cards as legitimate. There is no justification mailing cards when high quality JPEGs can be sent in seconds around the world and printed at destination. There is no justification for closed repeater systems. The public airways belong to everybody qualified. Closed repeater systems simply encourage radio xenophobia.

I'm sure most of my thoughts will be met with a giant THUD. I admit I am a radio curmudgeon after so many years. But I do believe our beloved hobby needs new life. It's time.

Tony, K6BBC

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A New Century?

by HIGHQ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The repeaters are the same around here - dead quiet. A lot of the operators are too - literally (SK)! You mentioned CW so I will too. Now we just have to wait for a comment from a pro-coder saying that the "dumbed down", cb type no-code operators have driven everyone off of VHF/UHF. LOL.

73,
N8VB

RE: A New Century?

by N8VB on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The repeaters are the same around here - dead quiet. A lot of the operators are too - literally (SK)! You mentioned CW so I will too. Now we just have to wait for a comment from a pro-coder saying that the "dumbed down", cb type no-code operators have driven everyone off of VHF/UHF. LOL.

73,
N8VB

RE: A New Century?

by N8VB on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

N8VB sorry about the above post. I was trying to respnd to something you said but my text didnt make it. <Now we just have to wait for a comment from a pro-coder saying that the "dumbed down", cb type no-code operators have driven everyone off of VHF/UHF. LOL> I hope that is not true. I am studing to get my ticket but maybe I should listen to the repeaters myself to see if anyone is on around here.

Roy

RE: A New Century?

by HIGHQ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

N8VB sorry about the above post. I was trying to respnd to something you said but my text didnt make it. <Now we just have to wait for a comment from a pro-coder saying that the "dumbed down", cb type no-code operators have driven everyone off of VHF/UHF. LOL> I hope that is not true. I am studing to get my ticket but maybe I should listen to the repeaters myself to see if anyone is on around here.

Roy

RE: A New Century?

by HIGHQ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I think there is something wrong with the forum.

A New Century?

by KD7KGX on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in the Pacific Northwest, some repeaters are almost unused and some are very busy. We have a lot of nets on several of the repeaters, and I think the sponsoring clubs are very wise to encourage nets since that gets people on the air.

I think the problem is that current repeater etiquette, as promulgated, discourages casual contacts between hams. Calling CQ is frowned upon. Saying, "This is XXXXXX monitoring" usually will result in silence. Coming back to someone who has called "monitoring" will often result in silence... strange! Maybe it's because VHF repeater use has evolved into a utilitarian tool instead of a way of making contacts with other, unknown hams... that ham who was monitoring simply wanted to let HIS buddies know THEY could reach him but he wasn't open for a general conversation. Certainly, since VHF repeater users don't engage in some of the more traditional aspects of ham radio (QSL cards, logging contacts) the comradery isn't there.

This isn't a code/no-code debate, since no one needs code to use repeaters. Instead, it points to the changing demographics of ham radio and the fact that many Tech licensees are 'utilitarians'... into ham radio for the utility rather than for the excitement of contacting others. You are looking for contacts, but most people who use repeaters today are only looking to talk with others they know. I will add that this phenomenon (of lack of use of VHF repeaters by Techs) indicates to me that granting HF privileges to no-code Techs will not result in increased use of the band... because the people who haven't upgraded and who won't renew when their license expires are not motivated enough to pursue ham radio as a real hobby... it's just a tool.

If I were you, I'd keep my radio, and look to see if any repeaters in my area supported IRLP or EchoLink... users of such repeaters and systems are definitely looking for conversations. Hopefully other hams (especially new hams) will hear you having all the fun of working foreign hams, join in on the fun, and get motivated enough to earn HF privileges. You can also listen for other new hams calling "monitoring" on the various repeaters and try to engage them in conversations.

Fixing ham radio is up to us. If we want more conversations on the repeaters, we have to be willing to start them, and to be available for them.

RE: A New Century?

by HIGHQ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in the Pacific Northwest, some repeaters are almost unused and some are very busy. We have a lot of nets on several of the repeaters, and I think the sponsoring clubs are very wise to encourage nets since that gets people on the air.

I think the problem is that current repeater etiquette, as promulgated, discourages casual contacts between hams. Calling CQ is frowned upon. Saying, "This is XXXXXX monitoring" usually will result in silence. Coming back to someone who has called "monitoring" will often result in silence... strange! Maybe it's because VHF repeater use has evolved into a utilitarian tool instead of a way of making contacts with other, unknown hams... that ham who was monitoring simply wanted to let HIS buddies know THEY could reach him but he wasn't open for a general conversation. Certainly, since VHF repeater users don't engage in some of the more traditional aspects of ham radio (QSL cards, logging contacts) the comradery isn't there.

This isn't a code/no-code debate, since no one needs code to use repeaters. Instead, it points to the changing demographics of ham radio and the fact that many Tech licensees are 'utilitarians'... into ham radio for the utility rather than for the excitement of contacting others. You are looking for contacts, but most people who use repeaters today are only looking to talk with others they know. I will add that this phenomenon (of lack of use of VHF repeaters by Techs) indicates to me that granting HF privileges to no-code Techs will not result in increased use of the band... because the people who haven't upgraded and who won't renew when their license expires are not motivated enough to pursue ham radio as a real hobby... it's just a tool.

If I were you, I'd keep my radio, and look to see if any repeaters in my area supported IRLP or EchoLink... users of such repeaters and systems are definitely looking for conversations. Hopefully other hams (especially new hams) will hear you having all the fun of working foreign hams, join in on the fun, and get motivated enough to earn HF privileges. You can also listen for other new hams calling "monitoring" on the various repeaters and try to engage them in conversations.

Fixing ham radio is up to us. If we want more conversations on the repeaters, we have to be willing to start them, and to be available for them.

RE: A New Century?

by RobertKoernerExAE7G on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Oh dear.

Unused repeaters.

I’m sure I have an HT in one of my closets.

73
Bob

by WB9GKZ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The repeaters around my area are pretty much dead except for boring weekly nets.

My most interesting observation is that there are no
local CB'ers to be heard chatting at night when the skip goes out.

Think about it: The two biggest pipelines into ham radio, 2-meters and CB are dead. Where does that leave HF in about 10-20 years?

A New Century?

by KX2S on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Whats a repeater? Is that an amateur with alot of gas?

A New Century?

by KG4YJR on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I got tired of the local repeaters very quickly. The same people everyday talking about the same thing. Lately I've been monitoring and putting out several calls daily on 146.52 (simplex) on my lengthy commute home in the afternoons. I'm starting to meet a new ham passing through town about twice a week.

73
Dave

A New Century?

by G5FSD on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

It's sadly true. The internet, satellite TV, mobile phones, games consoles... all the toys from the last decade or two have decimated the amount of activity of the air (whether ham or CB).

For most people, if you DO just want to communicate (from home) with strangers in an CB/ham sort of way, the internet is far easier and better value. With people you DO know, mobile phones and 'texting' keep you in touch with your friends. Two-way radio just doesn't compete.

So, amateur radio gets left with the 'real hams' who actually love radio for what it is. This means a huge drop in numbers but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Mobile VHF is a waste of time unless you're lucky to live within range of a bunch of like-minded souls. The VHF/UHF bands have become generally unused in flat conditions (like 6m!), and only find use when there's a lift. That's why I've never installed VHF in the car, but get my kicks once or twice a year taking everything up to high ground during great conditions. If you manage to get more from VHF FM than this, consider yourself lucky!

A New Century?

by KC8CON on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I think the biggest problem is to many repeaters. It is the same around here. Some repeaters are about dead except for the communters to work in the morning and evening. Then there are some repeaters that are very active. I really think that there are to many repeaters to choose from and that is why some are dead and some very active.

Just my two cents worth.

73
Juddie, KC8CON

RE: A New Century?

by KB9YZL on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in the Chicago area, it is pretty much the same picture. Most of the repeaters are rather quiet, except for pre-scheduled nets, and rush hour usage by groups who already know each other. I once tried to join one of these commuter discussions, and was made to feel very un-welcome.

I think one of the earlier replies “Hit the Nail on the Head” when it was noted that; >>”……..many Tech licensees are 'utilitarians'... into ham radio for the utility rather than for the excitement of contacting others.”<<

I will freely admit that this was my route into Amateur Radio. It wasn’t until after I had secured a Tech License that I really got interested in the Hobby! I needed better mobile communications than the Children’s Band was able to provide, and the whole 2 meter thing looked like the perfect solution.

I think this is a very typical scenario in the VHF/UHF world, and I suspect that many of the Tech Licenses stay Techs because they are in it for utility purposes only. They have no real desire to explore the other aspects of the Hobby.

If this “Utilitarian Usage” is as widespread as I suspect, it would explain the situation on the repeaters. After all, if you regard your radio as only a tool, you will think of the repeater, and all the possibilities it offers, in the same way.

I, for one, would like to see more VHF Simplex usage. I think it would be great if there was a nationally recognized 2 meter frequency where you could go to get a civilized version of the kind of road information that is available on CB-19. This sort of “casual contact QSO” is exactly the sort of thing that would show the “Utilitarians” how much fun Amateur Radio can be.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL

(Wow!!!...... I got through an entire post without mentioning Code!......Oops…. Blew it!)

A New Century?

by N2XE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

If the general Amateur Radio community wouldn't have such a hissy fit when we operate modulated CW on repeaters, they would be jam packed with action.

RE: A New Century?

by KB1FLR on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in RI/MASS we have several very busy repeaters. Heck, there is even an SSTV repeater here. True, you stand a much better chance of finding a QSO during rush hour, but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I suppose that some of the slowdown in repeater usage is from HF mobile rigs becoming ubiquitous. I switch between 17 meters and 2 meters as the mood strikes me. There are lots of /M ssb ops on 17 and even some cw /M's on 20.

Rick, KB1FLR

RE: A New Century?

by K2ACX on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

N8VB:
The dumbed-down, CB-type no-code operators have driven everyone off of VHF/UHF.

You heard it here first. Hahaha. :)

Brian K2ACX

A New Century?

by K4SFC on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Cliques; pure and simple. There are twelve repeaters listed in the ARRL Repeater Directory for Louisville, KY. I challenge you to get a "ragchew" on anyone of them. Unless of course, you "brown-nose" the "Clique" that is CONTROLLING it. And it's not just here, I've been KY to NC and KY to DE this year. I managed one QSO total for the two trips. And it was on 146.520.
Let me add one other thing that is bothering me. You cannot muster a decent gathering of hams on a repeater anymore even during a WX alert for a Tornado sighting. One reason I believe, is the "METEOROLOGISTS" in our area scream "Wolf" so often, they are being ignored. For about three years now, they start the "WX Alerts" on the TV for T-storms as far away as 100 miles. Even with no Tornado sightings. Why do we continue to put up with this? I've lived sixty-one years without needing someone to tell me when the WX is bad. If all the "METEOROLOGISTS" disppeared tomorrow, this is one person who would not miss them one bit.

RE: A New Century?

by WR8D on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

RE N8VB: We're starting a come back here. We have 4 two meter machines linked together all the time with echo link on them too. Its really nice to be mobile on two meters and talk with folks over seas. Each time one connects to us we tell him to tell his friends and the next time he brings more of them with him. As for the cb types which "did" run most the older hams off the band here where i live...we told them to hit the road and not let the door hit them in the ass on the way out. Its worked very well. The older hams are coming out of the wood work having nice qso's...and the new folks we're getting sound just as nice as the older hams. We're very satisfied. The only standing harsh rule we have is leave the cb slang on 11 meters. If you want to talk on our system talk like the ham you're supposed to be. Not like a damn cber. Good amateur practice will take you everywhere.

73
John WR8D

A New Century?

by CWTITAN on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Same in Idaho. I think the problem is a lot of CB type lingo used on the repeaters, along with bad radio lingo. Things like "here is" "73rds" 73s,Q signs, and the general unfriendly people. Some repeater owners think they own the radio waves...etc....If it is ham radio, put on the air for public use, (in spite of PLs) I don't think the owners of equipment have any right to useage as long as it is legal. There is nothing wrong with laughing (saying hi hi is bad, bad, bad, bad, and shows how stupid you are), and having fun on FM. That is what it is for. Some of you equipment owners/Control operators act like COPS OF THE AIRWAYS.Get some light in your lives, let people have fun.

A New Century?

by AD7DB on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Ummm, as a Los Angeles resident (and hopefully not permanently marooned here), I can't believe you can't find active repeaters... unless you're listening from midnight to 5:00am or something? I have a number of frequencies programmed into my radios. If I hit the memory scan button, it will NOT make the full round without hitting some ham activity. (No, I don't have the infamous "435" repeater programmed at all.)

Regarding the closed systems, especially on 440, it's been that way for decades. I KNOW why they do it; I don't especially AGREE with some of their reasons, but I know why it happens. About ten years ago, a number of my friends and I left a local computer club and formed our own closed club so we could get away from the people who didn't want to learn how to use their own systems. (Folks would bring in a computer and loudly demand someone fix it FOR them, rather than learn how to troubleshoot it themselves with our help.) My understanding is that many of the closed repeater groups came to 440 from 2m under similar circumstances. Some systems are closed because they've spent thousands of dollars setting up links all over the place. "The more extensive, the more expensive." They want long-term members whose dues will support the system; they don't want freeloaders. Some systems don't restrict membership; I belong to one of them. Others have the attitude of "don't call us, we'll call you, but don't hold your breath."

Sorry you had such an experience in such a well populated city as this. I hope you'll give it another try sometime... there ARE some good repeaters around.

Dave AD7DB

A New Century?

by CWTITAN on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

OH YEAH, THE NO CODERS HAVE DUMBED DOWN RADIO, CBERS HAVE RUINED PROPER USAGE.

RE: A New Century?

by K3UD on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Believe it or not there was a time when 2 meter repeater operation was exciting. I started out by converting a GE pre progress (pre-prog) commercial FM transceiver for the early 50s to 2 meter FM operation. This was a monster which mounted in the trunk with a control head connected from the dash. The power supply consisted of a dynamotor which dimmed the lights whenever you transmitted. It was great!

There were a very large number of hams on the repeaters of the mid to late 60s and early 70s when the boom took off. Everyone seemed welcome and sometimes the activity was so great that it was tough to get airtime. Repeater activity seemed to have peaked in the early 80s with a second peak in the early 90s when the no code Technician license became available.

I began to notice a large drop off in repeater use from about 1986. At the time I was doing a good amount of driving around the middle atlantic, midwest and midsouth areas and found that there seemed to be a good amount of unused repeaters. Activity, except for established nets had declined to the point where contacts became fewer and farther between.

Activity increased tremendously in the early 90s with the advent of the new tech license. The activity changed then with more husbands and wives getting licensed and using it the way cell phones are used today. By 1996 or so most of this increased activity seemed to have died out.

This was also the era of conflict between the new users and the old line users of repeaters and was the era of much increased use of PL coding and shifting PL coding in an attempt to try to lock out certain users. I remember it as a rather ugly time which probably fostered the situation being described today.

The ironic part of it is that there seems to be more repeaters than ever, and the equipment manufacturers seem to be selling more FM gear than ever. yet, the overall use seems to be less than ever. Go figure.

It could also be that the use of PL and the relative complexity of programming the tones might have something to do with it. (everytime I need to program a tone I have to consult the manual because I do it so infrequently) There also may be more "private" closed repeaters or just a lack of interest.

73
George
K3UD

RE: A New Century?

by N8VB on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

WR8D:

I am glad you are making some progress getting them off the repeaters. I find the cb lingo irritating too. When I hear someone talking like a cber on the repeater I adopt a trucker like voice and use the cb lingo right back - most get the point and cleanup their act. A few just never do get it...

73,
N8VB

PS It looks like the system had a hiccup earlier... seems to be better now. LOL.

RE: A New Century?

by K0BG on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The word "devolve" albeit archaic means to move onward or downward. This is exactly what happens as the natural course and flow of life as any Simm City player will tell you. Once the city grows to a certain size, slums appear, and for amateur radio it is the 2M repeater facit of our hobby. It is also natural for the intelligentsia to shun the slums. And if we keep berating and debasing each other, the whole hobby will become a slum with obvious results.

Alan, KØBG

RE: A New Century?

by WB2WIK on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I don't know where you're commuting to from Newbury Park, but the T.O. area has some very fine and reasonably populated repeaters. As AD7DB said, if I let my two meter mobile (FM) rig "scan" the 90 or so channels I have stored in memories, it won't scan more than 2-3 seconds before it locks on activity -- and that's the case just about 24 hours a day. I'm in the west Valley, about 20 miles east of T.O.

However, I surely agree that VHF-FM-repeater activity is definitely not what it once was. Why should it be? It's not terribly interesting, there's virtually no experimenting going on, most of the equipment is of the throw-away variety (including my own), and autopatches outgrew their usefulness when cellular phones became "free" with service so inexpensive that most welfare recipients have it.

What has occurred over the years, though, is a huge increase in HF-mobile activity. Totally huge. When I was first licensed in the mid-60's, to run HF mobile was an exotic art practiced only by the wacky or rich. "KWM2 under the dashboard of the Fleetwood here, old man..." I knew hundreds of hams personally, and maybe one or two were equipped for HF-mobile.

Now, multi-featured 9-to-12-band multimode 100W mobile rigs fit almost in the palm of one's hand and can be installed almost anywhere, including a bicycle. HF mobile antennas are everywhere, as are the rigs and the activity. I cannot operate any HF band for more than two minutes without being called by a mobile station.

The advantages of HF-mobile are many, and obviously include the opportunity for worldwide propagation and contacts, which tend to be more interesting than chatting about the traffic on the 101 freeway. VHF-UHF-FM-repeaters still definitely have their place when it comes to local traffic handling, disaster work and so forth, but for general hamming it's become just plain silly.

Evidently, most hams agree with this sentiment because while the amateur population is higher than it's ever been, VHF-UHF-FM activity is most assuredly much lower than it was in the 1980's.

WB2WIK/6

A New Century?

by KG6JEV on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Having recently moved from Northern California to Virginia, I can certainly add something to this interesting thread. The N6ICW repeater (147.195), located in the Sacramento area, is an example of an excellent repeater. I was more of a lurker on that system, but never had a problem finding someone to have a pleasant QSO with. The repeater had its quiet moments, but could be pretty busy in the mornings and afternoons. After moving to Virginia, I decided to keep my '6' call. I also decided to become more active on the local machines. Anytime I was mobile, I sent out my call. More often than not, at first, I was greeted with the same response you got - dead air. I kept at it and didn't get discouraged. Four months later, I still get dead air quite frequently, when sending out my call, but I've also made some friends and wouldn't think of selling the dual-bander. If someone chooses not to talk to me, for whatever reason, that's fine with me. I think a lot of it has to do with being the 'new guy on the block'. Is it right? Probably not. In the meantime, I'll keep trying.

73,

Steven / KG6JEV/4

RE: A New Century?

by W9WHE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

WHY are repeaters so dead??

1) The number of repeaters has EXPLODED in the past 10 years thereby spreading the number of actual users over a greater number of systems; and

2) the actual number of users has been dropping.

RE: A New Century?

by W9WHE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Can you say...."cellphone"?

RE: A New Century?

by W5EEX on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Hmmmm....all those unused repeaters on 2m and 70cm equates to a LOT of unused bandwidth.....how long before the "next BPL" comes after it too??? At least
there is an argument to be made that the HF freqs are being used.....if the VHF/UHF freqs are sitting idle, why not give them away to commercial, money-making
interests??? I have a difficult time understanding why all the "no coders" whine for HF priviliges when there is so much VHF/UHF bandwidth sitting idle. What's more,
with IRLP, they can work DX easier than us guys on HF.
The local hams (mostly Techs) talk about their radio setups (VHF/UHF dual banders, etc) but I don't hear them on the air.....what's the deal? Did they forget to connect the coax to get RF to the antenna?? Maybe they are calling each other on their cell phones.
73,
W5EEX

RE: A New Century?

by KC8VWM on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

It is not just repeaters that don't have any interesting conversations on them, it seems to be society in general. I think we are losing our ability to actively engage in the "Art of Communication."

If we all sit and "listen" to repeaters, how can there be any conversations?

KC8VWM

A New Century?

by KB9RHA on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

LOL I don't think there's anything wrong with the forum. I could be wrong, but if you're double-clicking the "Post" button, it will post your comment twice.

Some of the repeaters in my area, NE IL/SE WI do seem like they don't have the activity they once did, but there's others that still seem quite popular. I hope the popularity of repeaters doesn't die off. I was hoping, in the near future, to put up a 6M repeater in this area. I hope I'm not wasting my time and money.

73, Chris KB9RHA

Repeater activity

by K5UJ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I've been doing a few admittedly minor things to help a friend get started in this hobby. Recently he was licensed as a Tech. and I have been talking to him occasionally on a local repeater. This means that for me, a ham who has always been an HF operator, I have been listening to a local repeater for the first time in years. I too have noticed changes. Folks don't seem to be having fun. QSO's have a kind of deadly serious tone about them like we're all on Dragnet ("Just the facts ma'am."). To keep this brief, I'll jump to my suspicions as to the cause: 30 years ago, the hams on repeaters were mostly the same guys running HF stations and the roundtable type hijinks and frivolity of HF made it over onto 2 m. Also, VHF FM was viewed as more of a communications tool; not always an end unto itself.

I think we need an entry license that grants some HF privileges, so new hams can set up novice type stations and learn a few things about grounding, making a simple dipole antenna, and experience and learn about HF propagation and HF operating. I think my friend is doing a lot of good things, getting involved with the local club etc. and he is going to stick with it but I am afraid right now there are too many hams who do not get past the 2m. rig, mic, mag. mount antenna phase and eventually loose interest and move on to oh, I don't know, stamp collecting?
I believe VHF and up FM etc. for new hams has been a mistake, but then I also think the whole VEC thing was wrong also. My opinions; please correct me if I am wrong.

Rob Atkinson
K5UJ

A New Century?

by KE4ZHN on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in the Orlando fl. area I have noticed a decline in repeater activity as well. But,in this area, we have too many machines! There must be 30 repeaters in the Orlando and surrounding areas alone. There are but a few with somewhat regular activity on them, but most of them sit silent. I feel a big part of this is that many of the regulars that used to hang out on 2 have now upgraded and become HF operators. About 5 years ago, you couldnt tune for more then 2-3 minutes and you would hear a repeater active. Now its kind of sparce. While this isnt a bad thing, it is a shame that many of these machines sit silent. I think its just a simple case of too many repeaters for the coverage area. On the rare occasions I do use a repeater, it is nice to have such a big selection of basically unused machines to choose from to yak with a bud out of simplex range though. I prefer to use simplex when possible, but thats not always practical. Its possible the advent of real cheap cellphones has had an impact as well. All I know is, 2 mtrs. is great for local around town communications and having a bunch of repeaters to choose from is nice! ;-)

RE: A New Century?

by AJ5F on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I played the "Rip Van Winkle" and went inactive for about 13 years. When I finally got back on the air about two months ago, I found the 2-meter band right where I left it with activity on local repeaters here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area about the same as before. I found the same mix of technical discussions and entertaining ragchewing. I was pleasantly surprised that all the no-coders (which didn't exist when I went inactive) operated in the same spirit and technique as what I was hearing in the 1970's and 80's.

Two-meter FM is alive and well in North Texas. Our biggest headache is not inactivity, but rather the opposite -- doubling!

If you are ever in the area, monitor 145.17 and jump in with the finest bunch of fellows and gals I have ever met.

Maybe repeaters are dead in California, but so are a lot of other things there.

73,
AJ5F

RE: A New Century?

by VE2DC on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I think W5WHE has it right... 2M seemed a lot busier when there were a mere handful of repeaters in the area. There are so many repeaters now on so many bands that the average number of users on any given repeater is < 2... therefore not many QSO's result ;-)

RE: A New Century?

by WB2WIK on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Repeater activity all over the country is "down," for certain. Possibly North Texas is a rare exception, and perhaps because the activity started later there and thus is more mid-life than end-of-life as it is in some other areas.

The first repeaters in the country were in Los Angeles, and indeed began as "AM" repeaters back in the 1950's. W6MEP on Mt. Lee was one of those. It transitioned from AM to FM, and changed frequencies and locations several times...but...<yawn>...who needs it, anymore?

It was fun when it was all experimental! I loved converting taxicab rigs to the 2m band, running 2-channel, crystal-control, with 60W-output tube rigs! It was a challenge to get anything working at all, and when we finally made a contact we felt like we just landed on the moon.

Today...buy a rig for $100, and you're there. What fun is that?

WB2WIK/6

A New Century?

by N1ZHE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I live in Southern Maine. The repeaters are getting quieter almost daily. And does anyone remember packet? It's long gone from here.

I don't think the problem is CW. You don't need CW to work repeaters.

I think the problem is the Internet/instant messaging, among other things.

Oh well, it's encouraging me to upgrade from tech plus to general and perhaps extra. Hope there are more people on HF.

Hope I can get my grandsons interested someday.

David

RE: A New Century?

by K6BBC on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Thank you to everyone for responding. Very thoughtful.

Tony, K6BBC

A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by N0TONE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Most of the comments in this forum agree that repeater usage is all but dead.

There is a lesson to be learned, for those who teach classes or get newcomers into the hobby.

Don't EVER suggest that a newcomer's first rig should be a 2 meter HT. It is a virtual guarantee that they will find no usage, get bored, and leave the hobby. The story is told over and over.

Get them on 2 meter SSB, or 6 meters or maybe even get them to buy a 10W mobile rig and install an outside antenna, hopefully to find simplex FM, but NEVER under any circumstance, should you encourage a 2 meter HT as the first rig. It's a guaranteed way to ensure they won't stick around.

And I think the ARRL needs to remove that recommendation from their literature, as well.

In our local classes, we offer the "option" to learn code, and most students voluntarily learn code, and start with a General class license, and get excited about 20 meter and 17 meter SSB. Our retention rate (locally), of the hams licensed 10 years ago, is about 70% for the Generals. Looking at the FCC database, it appears to be less than 5% for the Techs.

Pay attention to this lesson, it could make or break the future of the service.

AM

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by AD6WL on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The repeaters in this area always seemed to be monitored by someone. Not many QSOs going on except for the weekend travelers going from southern California to Las Vegas. However, whenever someone needs assistance on the repeaters there was always someone there to assist them. I have personally helped two individuals thru use of our repeaters and I mean hams who were in accidents not just the hams driving thru asking for detours around the crowded freeways here. The best way to describe it is that the repeaters are there when you need them but not much beside that.

Declining Repeater Usage

by K3YD on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, I too have noticed reduced repeater activity. I attribute this to two factors:
1. The proliferation of repeaters. In many urban areas there are dozens of machines. A half dozen ops can be "listening" on 6 of say, 24 machines in a community and none ever make a QSO.
2. Increasingly common use of PL. PL is not much of a problem for a local repeater user but is a big problem for travelers. As a transient, it's difficult to learn the PL for most repeaters, even more difficult to program it on the fly. Plus, many people consider any PL-equipped machine to be CLOSED or PRIVATE. I drive 20~30K miles/year--mostly within 400 miles of my home. Without exception, the only QSO's I have on these trips, once I'm more than 50 miles from home, are on the few remaining "open" (non-PL) machines.
If repeater owners (clubs or individuals) want to increase repeater activity--try shutting off the PL.

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by KE2IV on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

One of the better threads here - with some useful insight to the issue.

I would suggest that there are several reasons for the decline in activity.

The first, and obvious, is cellphones. Years back, as I recall, much of the activity on one of the repeaters I monitor consisted of folks using the autopatch feature to check-in with home. That's no longer necessary and until I heard someone use it a few months back I thought that the function had been removed from the machine!

Secondly, as with activity on the HF bands and elsewhere, the internet has taken its toll. Most of the time, if your here you're not on the air.

Third, whether a machine is open or closed isn't nearly as big an issue as the fact that even on repeaters in the former category, "regulars" rarely comeback to hams who are just passing through. I imagine most of us have experienced the phenomenon of getting on a repeater annouce that you are monitoring only to be greeted with dead air. Then, a minute latter, Harry calls Bill, Bill responds and away they chat!

Granted Harry and Bill know each other - but neither seems to have any interest in greeting a newcomer.

So, in some ways, repeaters are like the local bar. It may be crowded with "regulars" all chatting and having a good time. But if you just stumble in, you'll wind up nursing your beer all alone because you just aren't part of the "in-crowd".

There is one positive I've noted with the decline in activity. I rarely (if ever) hear the wackos anymore - even when there is some activity (e.g. the daily traffic net) that they could harrass.

I guess all of those clowns have migrated to sites like this one, where they can still get attention.

73,
George
KE2IV

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by N0TONE on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

KE2IV, you have some good points.

One of the ARRL staffers, chatting with me off the record at Dayton (therefore I won't disclose his name/callsign), gave me a theory. The theory, IMHO, is probably closer to the truth.

* As our ranks fill up (particiularly in the no-code tech area) with newcomers whose sole purpose was for emergency preparedness operations, a new repeater tradition has sprung up. That new tradition is that we must keep the repeater clear, in case there is an emergency. I haven't owned a 2 meter rig in a few years, but even 5 years ago, I would often hear a conversation start on a repeater, then one of the club regulars would pop in, and remind the ragchewers that the repeater should be kept clear for emergencies, and suggest (nicely) that they could use simplex.

* As we try to make it easy to get into ham radio (public question pools, etc), we get a lot more newcomers who are not prepared to erect an outdoor antenna of any sort - not even the proverbial Ringo Ranger. The "Shack On The Belt" message has been learned, and learned very well.

Therefore, the newcomer with the shack on the belt tries to use the repeater, gets told to go to simplex, but he can't use simplex because his only antenna is the rubber duck. It doesn't take long before he realizes that this hobby is more work than he wanted, and he gives up, and another HT is bought from ebay.

Secondarily, there are newcomers who live too far from the machine to even make it into the repeater with just the rubber duck. Nobody told them they might have to install an outdoor antenna, and it's more effort than they want to mess with, and we have another HT on ebay.

AM

RE: A New Century?

by K4SFC on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Subsequent to my previous posting, I'm receiving emails from well meaning individuals telling me "good repeaters" in North Carolina and stuff like that. If you would take a minute and click on my "web page link" on eham, you will see I'm from NC. I got my license in Fayetteville in 1979. But I live in KY now. I visit relatives/friends in NC every year.
As far as the email taking me to tasks over my comments about WX men. Until Tornado touch down can be predicted to time and place, stay off my TV! I can look out the window and do what you do.

RE: A New Century?

by G3SEA on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

1. We might show some appreciation for the hams who
set up and maintain these repeaters.

2. Since many hams first rig is a 2m HT they now have the capability via EchoLink to talk across the country and the world for meaningful contacts.

3. IRLP & EchoLink may well be the salvation of many of these repeaters. :)

A New Century?

by NI0C on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I had to laugh at the author's assertion that "the ARRL needs to crawl into the 21st century and acknowledge there is an Internet and except[sic] eQSL cards as legitimate." I wonder where he's been? The October issue of QST announced the ARRL Logbook of the world, which uses the internet to collect log information from amateurs worldwide! I've been using it for the last several weeks, and already over one percent of the QSO's I've uploaded have been confirmed by Lotw.
The system known as eQSL did not meet the security and integrity requirements for ARRL awards. I've heard others complain about this, but as a long-time participant in the DXCC program I appreciate the high standards of the ARRL.

73 de Chuck NI0C

RE: A New Century?

by W2BRI on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I find that I can get a lot more QSOs on 40 meters from the car, so that's where you'll find me. Get on HF, always a good place to find people day and night.

RE: A New Century?

by WR8D on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Talking about the guys that would come in and tell the folks on the repeater to move to simplex...well if someone did that here in Wva you'd never get to talk to anyone. Here in these hills its almost line of sight. We have to talk on the machines to maintain contact. We always drag our feet so to speak incase there is an emergency though. Simplex only works a few miles in these little twisty valleys...so we link the machines up through 440 or 220 links.

73
John WR8D

RE: A New Century?

by N6AYJ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

The reasons I got off 2 meters completely were: (1) unfriendly users; (2) boring; (3)cliques; and (4) Hollingsworth's misinterpretation of Part 97 to say that a repeater owner has the right to order you off his machine while leaving it up. As far as I'm concerned, let the repeaters die from lack of use. I won't miss them a bit.

RE: A New Century?

by W5HTW on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Many good comments here.

Perhaps one of the biggest downfalls of the repeaters has already been mentioned and that is the spouse who was pushed onto the air as a Tech to keep in touch a la cell phone. When cell phones became nearly free, that spouse who wasn't interested in ham radio at all anyway, shifted to the cell phone. I still hear an occasional hubby calling the wife to say he's picking up the kids at the kennels but it isn't prevalent. Also the FCC cracked down a bit on business use. I used to hear repeaters in this area being used to dispatch (again, by the wife-ham in the office calling hubby-ham in the truck) to deliver computers, plumbing supplies, construction materials, etc. I think some of the control ops got on the case of these people as I almost never hear that anymore. However, that did take some of the activity off the repeaters, even if it was business activity.

Also, as someone said, we needed (badly!) the Novice ticket, that entry level ticket. It was a critical, and permanently-damaging, mistake to get rid of it as the entry level to ham radio. It granted people the excitement of HF for a trial period. When we made the entry level the Tech ticket, a lot of people thought they could get into this hobby and be a real ham. But what happened was, once they were in it, they found they had even more restrictions than they had had on CB. Now they still had channelized radios, low power, no DX, and what's worse, they had rules! The visions of sitting at the Kallifornia Kilowatt, with the big tower and the big beam, and working Middle Bangolia, or handling traffic for the troops at sea, were still as far away as ever. It was serious disillusionment time. They locked the HT in the drawer and have no idea where it is now. Ham radio had been mis-promoted to them.

And as WIK says, there is no experimenting on the repeaters. We've done what there is to do. We've set up state-wide links, and we have APRS (which is not a ham invention but was developed from a government project) and suddenly, as Steve says, it's all boring. Just how many squelch tails can one listen to in one day and not be sick of them?

VHF is fun. But VHF FM is like driving a taxi. You talk to the same folks about the same thing, day after day.

It WAS a buncha fun for those of us in the 60s and early 70s who, again as Steve says, modified those commercial FM radios to get on two meters. It took some work, it took some knowledge, and often it failed the first time or two you tried it. So you kept on until you got it right. A challenge! Wow, what a word! Gotta say it again "Challenge!" We mounted Motracs under the seat, control heads between the wife's legs, and we made sure we were in motion when we keyed the 80 watt rig so the alternator could keep up with the load. We had two channels, maybe four. I recall seeing my very first Clegg synthesized radio and thinking, "Wow, I gotta have one of those! No crystals!"

Before that we put military ARC3s (8 channels, 8 watts, AM) on the air and it was all fun. And we did the Heath Twoer, too, of course, building it ourselves.

All that is gone. Now we call AES or HRO and say "put me on the air." Rig arrives, plug it in, program in the repeaters and talk. Nothing wrong with that, really, but then again, the record shows, "It ain't fun." We are not challenging our minds, so we get tired of it very quickly. You can't keep working the same crossword puzzle day after day.

The majority of repeaters I know that have PL, by the way, do so to prevent intermod, not to "hide" from users. PL tones are published, often are announced on the repeater ID.

I think, and this sounds like the anti-CB crowd (of which I am probably one anyway) that just as CB is dying off, the "VHF CB" is also dying off. The diehards will remain on CB, and the diehards on 2 meters will remain there. Until licensing changes again, then they will have a brand new playground. Perhaps that will give them a challenge?

Ed

RE: A New Century?

by KE6I on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

>Also, as someone said, we needed (badly!) the Novice
>ticket, that entry level ticket. It was a critical,
>and permanently-damaging, mistake to get rid of it as
>the entry level to ham radio. It granted people the
>excitement of HF for a trial period

I don't know. If you think repeaters are a ghost town, well those novice bands have been pretty quiet for awhile. I remember in the 70's hearing all kinds of signals there, but in the 80's and 90's it just shriveled up. (I'm in California.) Asking a new ham to hook up their first badly installed dipole on a HF radio, and to call CQ using CW on 7.125 is setting them up for disapointment, imo. These days, I am hearing low speed CW contacts on the low end of 40 meters -- probably from the 5wpm extras, which is fine as far as I'm concerned.

I suspect we're so thin on the ground these days, that the whole idea of parcelling out spectrum for passing license tests is just no longer workable.

RE: A New Century?

by K6BBC on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I agree N6AYJ. If one chooses to put up a repeater, it is for all to use. How dare any repeater owner write a letter (and it’s enforced) to the FCC. This is outrageous.

K6BBC

RE: A New Century?

by KE6I on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Btw, in terms of actually talking to people on repeaters these days, I find it just takes extreme persistence. Call, and call and call. I treat repeaters just like calling on 6 meters. Program in a lot of different machines and transmit on all of them. More than a few times, the guy who owns the machine will come back, surprised that someone other than him is out there. Usually they'll be really nice and want you back. And sometimes, the wife comes on confused that someone is actually talking on 'their channel' -- maybe because it happens so seldom. I have a big beam and lots of power so I can hit lots of repeaters.

A New Century?

by KJ6WM on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Repeaters - unused - I agree some are, and some aren't. On 440 especially, many are thought of as personal, -- and can't be used.

Who brought up the code/no-code?
Code, aka CW - why not make it a requirement? Yes, we have dumbed-down America. Most hams don't know what they are doing with the gear they have. Most Americans aren't technical enough to be able to do the math to make up a dipole. Since we have eliminated CW, and reduced the technical aspects, why not do away with the exam?

Computers, aka PCs - many hams, including many at ARRL headquarters would rather play with a PC than a ham radio. How about QSOs via the internet; is that ham radio? Just look through a few of the recent issues of QST. Compare them to some from, say 1970. And -- who ever does any experimenting (what hams used to do in the early days)?

You said "I'm sure most of my thoughts will be met with a giant THUD."

Well -- THUD!

And -- "we just have to wait for a comment from a pro-coder". Well, pro-code for sure, but more so, pro brains, hardwork, and having to earn the right to have a ham license.

Ham radio is a lot more than repeaters. If ham radio is mainly repeaters, then it isn't worth having. But, join a club and you will have a few guys who WILL talk to you. Things might improve. The ham ranks are dwindling. Why? Maybe it's because many of the new hams are ex-CB, no-coders that got into it to be able to chit-chat. That being the case, what kind of an Elmer will they be to potential new hams? They will explain that being a ham gets them the priviledge of having an HT or mobile rig and that they can talk to their buddies. This keeps bringing in guys who have no interest in ham radio but want to talk on the radio (ala CB radio) -- so the ranks dwindle more. As it is we are about to lose the priviledge.

So where do we go from here?

RE: A New Century?

by W5UX on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Many years ago, we were on an eight party telephone line. It was terrible. Seemed like every time you wanted to use the phone, somebody was on it. Repeaters are many times worse. Factor in human nature and It just doesn't work. A traveler coming through has questions that are hard to answer. Repeaters are ok when another ham is coming by your home to help you set up digi modes and you can help him get there. Of course for road problems and emergencies.

RE: A New Century?

by N9EYL on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I built the Ten-Tec Two meter transceiver here a couple of years ago. Looked in the repeater guide out here in OKC, OK and was unable to get anybody to answer my call on ANY of the repeaters. I eventually had to arrange a contact with one of my ham buddy's to even try it out. That sucks for having just hand built a new radio! I think I have made a total of three contacts on this radio including the arranged one since I have had this radio.

That is why I carry a cell phone for emergency communication. At least I know I can get it to work if I am every broke down in the middle of nowhere or come upon some sort of emergency. Heaven forbid trying to sort though all of the BOGUS PAPER REPEATERS in the repeater directory!

As for all of the PRIVATE CLIQUE REPEATERS, these are more gently referred to closed systems, I think they should only be allowed to use Business or GMRS frequencies.

If the ARRL was to publish a repeater directory with only the actually operating repeaters which where open for actual amateur radio type use, I would be willing to bet it would be a fourth of the size of the one we have now.

Jeff
AE9J

RE: A New Century?

by KG5JJ on October 23, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Cellphones have made repeaters a seldom used redundancy. Much like the internet nearly killed packet radio.

Factor-in (at least in this area) the irritation of many repeaters voice identifying with "good morning or evening", date, time, temperature, special announcements and a protracted CW ID on top of it all, EVERY 15 MINUTES day and night, is it any wonder nobody wants to use repeaters here?

Add the constant kerchunking, with resultant Auto-IDs, poor operating practices on-the-air, and it's a bit more than mortal humans should have to endure.

My VHF and UHF operating is filled with weak-signal work now...it has replaced the VHF and UHF FM operation for quite some time.

73 KG5JJ (Mike)

A New Century?

by N9ESH on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

A lot of folks are showing up on 2 Meter SSB.

RE: A New Century?

by N6AJR on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here in northern calif there are a ton of repeaters in use. Most that I hang out on are very friendly. one in the major san francisco bay area, 147.240 has no pl and is a super machine with youngsters, old farts (me) and a good cross scetion of guys and gals on at different times during the day.

Sacramento and stockton have good activity. the turlock amature radio club has a machine that you can talk on from rio vista to visalia, and over as far as paso robles. that is normal, on a good day you can talk from the grapevine to sacramento. And there is usually a bunch of nice folks on there too.

I never have a problem finding some one to talk to. There is also some 2 meter and 440 ssb work here ( sidewinders on two , for instance) and atv, and lately we have been playing with psk31 on 2 meters.. it works... so look a bit more, there are folks out there.

BTW I under stand closed repeaters. I guess some folks say I paid for it, I am responsible for it soI should be able to decide who can play on it. They ar correct, and supported by fcc rules, but most folks are open and have fun.

just my findings tom N6AJR

RE: A New Century?

by K7LAS on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I like what you said and how you said it.

I am a Tech. I do plan on upgrading, though - just so I can talk bad about the no-c**** - just kidding.

We have several repeaters here in town that are very active. That may be just because this town is very active - compared to others. We also have the western reflector for IRLP homed here - also nice to have.

Utilitarian. Yep, got lots of those here, too.

As a no-c*** type, I choose to do other wise. I've got a 3 band antenna (on a rotator) that has 2m / 70cm and 6m. The 2m / 70cm are vertically mounted - excellent long distance FM repeater work. The 6m side - last night I worked 13 contacts in TX, OK, KS and MO. I was like a kid in the candy store, it was awesome.

Last weekend I put up a 2m / 70cm horiziontal orientated beam, also on a rotator. Time to work some ssb on vhf / uhf. Also time to work at getting some others here in town working ssb and off the repeaters.

Oh, I live in a CC&R envirnoment that says I'm not supposed to have outside antennas. I guess I weened them starting with the scanner antenna 5 years ago. Then the dipole antenna. Then the dual band verticle strapped to the chimney. Then the tri-band. Then the horizontal dual band. Nothing outrageous, mind you - only the last one is high enough to "see" over most of the trees in my back yard.

Recently purchased a RigBlaster Plus to do some digital stuff - working on it.

Several of us use 146.52 simplex on regular basis. In the beggining we had a couple OM's try to chase us off - "You can't be on this freq - it the calling freq!!!" My - our - thoughts are: we talk, we allow time for break-in's, people hear there is activity. You would be amazed at the QSO's we have with folks coming into / leaving / just passing through town. I have read so many articles about folks bitching that 146.52 is dead, as they travel around the country. Not here.

Not all Tech's are stuck in a rut. We have a guy here in town that conducts code practice - on a repeater! - every weekend. Nice to have those types of OM's around. They care, they don't slam you. They actually want to help.

Ham Radio is just too awesome to me. Way too much to do and not enough time to do it. Sure, some are as you said - utilitarian. But there are lots in this town that are not. And there are lots of OM's more than willing to help. Glad I'm where I'm at.

Just my hz worth.

73 - Mark

RE: A New Century?

by N3DQU on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

G5FSD said "So, amateur radio gets left with the 'real hams' who actually love radio for what it is. This means a huge drop in numbers but isn't necessarily a bad thing." There may be some truth to this.

RE: A New Century?

by K2WH on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Repeaters are for the weak and timid. Get off the repeaters and onto HF for real ham radio.

K2WH

RE: A New Century?

by W1DLS on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

This is a very interesting thread.... Repeaters are indeed very UTILITARIAN, and it would seem that CELL PHONES have taken their toll.

We need an entry level license into HF. HF is "Real Radio", just for the fun of it. New people to meet, new places to talk to. Antennas to experiment with, and maybe even a kit to build. (There are still some out there!)

The fact that the entry license is into VHF makes NO SENSE AT ALL. How can you interest people in "Real Radio" by handing them a walkie talkie?

BRING BACK THE NOVICE LICENSE!!!!!!!

David,W1DLS (ex WN1SCI)

RE: A New Century?

by N9EYL on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I still say if you are going to have a closed repeater why shouldn't you just put it in the Business or GMRS bands??? That would make a lot more room for IRLP or Winlink nodes. I bought the equipment and helped put together a IRLP node for a friends repeater and it seems to get some use. I would like to see more of them go up but, s*** where do you put it?

Private repeaters belong in the Business or GMRS bands.

What if I put an open IRLP node up on a "Paper Repeater" frequency and wait for somebody to send me a notice? Can you generate harmful interference to a repeater that is not on the air???

Jeff
AE9J

A New Century?

by K4CMD on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

You all missed seeing the forest for all of the trees.

Know why there's nobody on your local repeater?

Let's see -- this thread started yesterday, and no fewer than SEVENTY hams have responded to it.

Now, I ask you -- ten years ago, where would these people have been? Staring incoherently at a CRT for hours on end, or talking on the radio?

TURN THE DAMNED THING OFF AND PICK UP THE MIKE, GUYS!!!

Meade K4CMD
(In here for my WEEKLY visit)

A New Century?

by K4CMD on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

P.S. I love it. Fifteen years ago the pro-coders (and other naysayers, OK?) were firing warning salvos about overcrowded bands. Now we're crying because the bands are dead. Thank you, World Wide Web!

Want to find another dead spot, one that makes my heart ache? Just try calling CQ in the novice bands!

Meade K4CMD

RE: A New Century?

by WB2WIK on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

As a pro-code guy, I'm going to put up a new repeater using a fan dipole antenna and make it MCW, exclusively. If the controller detects any sort of "voice," it will override the user and send, "code only" at 50wpm continuously.

Did I mention I'd use a fan dipole? :)

I received a solicitation in the mail earlier this week from a repeater group here in CA who has this huge system of interlinked, autopatch repeaters on the 440 MHz band. (No joke.) For a membership fee, I could join the group and use this wizard system. I didn't join, since I already have two cell phones and don't need to make that many calls.

But evidently, there really still are people doing this stuff. I applaud their technical achievements, but still wonder "why?"

WB2WIK/6

A New Century?

by KG4YJR on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I heard that people used to order pizzas using autopatch. Was that in the good old days?

RE: A New Century?

by NI0C on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Autopatch Phone calls for commercial purposes were (at least at one time) strictly forbidden by FCC rules. This included calls to one's place of business as well as ordering pizzas. I once used an autopatch to call a tow truck in an emergency situation.

RE: A New Century?

by K0BG on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I was just thinking, Steve. Since 2 meter antennas don't have to be too big to work well, maybe we could put our heads together, and come up with an RF slip ring. Then we could use an actual fan blade as a fan dipole! Heck, we could even use it to cool the repeater.

Alan, KØBG

RE: A New Century?

by KE0XL on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Interesting comments on the lack of CB conversations when the skip is not in. I have not listen to CB radio since about 1965. My brother had a CB in his car back then. Maybe the lack of conversations is the society we have become. We are insulated from each other like never before. When I am on 2M FM I talk about politics, other hobbies and even sometimes religion. These converstaions sometimes last as long as a 30 minute commute. I do not hear many other hams having converstaions like this. Here in our 2.2
million metro (Denver) our machines are dead most of the time. I think one possible remedy to the dead air is connect via ECHO or IRLP with the world. Here the law of big numbers apply. Chances are you will find someone on these connects in an english speaking country that wants to talk about more then the WX.

RE: A New Century?

by KB7YOU on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Hi,

I've been reading the messages on this thread and thought that I would contribute a few comments and thoughts.

First, I would like to extend my thanks to all the Hams in Utah with special thanks to those who live in the Salt Lake City area. These people, and the repeaters that they maintain and use, are one of the most interesting and enjoyable aspects of my Ham radio experience. I'd also like to extend my thanks to all the Hams that monitor the various FM and SSB simplex frequencies in my area.

At home, during my commute and on road trips, I know that I can always find an interesting technical conversation, a friendly rag chew, technical help and new and interesting people.

I am a general class ham - just upgraded from tech+ - and I really appreciate the fun and challenge of working HF. However, I think that there is plenty to be learned by the new tech on area repeaters. Even though you can call up HRO, etc. and "Get On The Air" there are still plenty of operating practices, coverage issues, interference problems and other things to study and learn.

An HT ham may decide to build a jpole or become interested in simplex and buy or build a small Yagi. This might lead them into packet or SSB modes, etc.

The point is, area repeaters are only tools. The people on them make them "good" or "bad". The other point is that no matter the privileges, skills or equipment, there are good people and bad people on the air. As others have mentioned, HF is not immune to the LID.

In my opinion, ham radio is about learning, helping and communicating. So, if you want to have fun in the hobby try the following:

1. Keep learning more about radio. The ARRL handbooks are packed with info and - at least for me - are enough to keep me busy for YEARS learning new things.

2. Help other people - hams, non-hams, community service efforts, etc.

3. Talk. Get on the air, join a club or two. Get others into the hobby.

4. LIDS, Cops and other "undesirables". Be polite and teach them by example. In my area there are several poor operators on the repeaters. I never bitch at them and when others avoid them, I talk to them. Why? because for me, that's what it's all about. I figure that if I am willing to talk to these folks and lead by example, they will improve. After all, I've made my share of mistakes and have learned from others.

One last thing, this thread is pretty mild compared to others I've read on eham. But even so, what's up with all the nasty, hate filled posts? In case you have not noticed, flame posts don't do anything good for our hobby.

That's my 2 cents.

73
Chris
KB7YOU

RE: A New Century?

by N9KPD on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

a few notes on this. What I figure your talking about "meteorologists" are the media based ones, like tv and radio. Heck some don't really have any background and if they do, they are pushed by their management to keep people watching TV or listening to the radio station and stay on their channel. ok thats my 1 penny of thought on this topic. The other penny is, come up to chicago land and the region up here during severe weather if you want to find active spotters. We have multiple nets that have good numbers of checkins and a larger net,that the other ones relay to, that has a station at the NWS office itself. So i'm thinking lots of the severe weather comments are probably geographically and "politically/advertisement" driven as up in Chicagoland area up here we do have a good number of dedicated spotters. I myself am an Emergency Management member for the local village and also a ham operator for more than half my age now, even tho I'm 25, I've been involved with skywarn for as long as the Plainfield tornado.
As for the crywolf type of situations I do have my complaints too about things like that, specially on the city level when they have police officers who are not even trained go out saying they see a tornado when all it turns out to be is a rainshaft. It doesn't make me look any better in the fact I am both a trained weather spotter and previously met major and at the same time an official for the city.
Also we have many 2m and 440 repeaters up here that have people who are friendly, save for 1 organization which I will not bring up cause of my own personal feelings, but other than that there are many repeaters up here that have activity during parts of the day.
Travelling? I've done my travelling from Chicagoland to Charleston, SC 3 years in a row now for vacation, and have made contacts on local repeaters running thru the area along with simplex 146.52 which we usually moved off to another freq. and also made 20 and 40 meter contacts SSB. (dont ask me to do code while driving please, specially thru the mountains ;-) ) But I still enjoy the hobby very much and have used it for both ragchew, competition, meeting new people, and emergency situations. And also encourage others, even tho there are thigns such as the cell phone and the internet with chatrooms and all that.
73's
-Dave N9KPD

A New Century?

by NB5Z on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Good Grief!

Someone please tell me about the fan dipoles! This horse is dead.

NB5Z

RE: A New Century?

by KG4WKY on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

KG4YJR

You've actually made contacts on 146.52? I've made long trips up I-95 and I-75, calling on .52 every 15 -20 minutes for HOURS on end and NEVER heard a reply. Only once (beside the obvious of folks finding each other in a crowd at a hamfest) have I actually heard a QSO on .52, and they faded out before I could do more than say "hi". Rather demoralizing. I'm headed north for Christmas this December so I'll try again, but I don't hold out much hope.

In other news, I've seen that about 1/3 of the repeaters listed in the current pocketsize ARRL listing appear to be either defunct or toned differently than the guide lists. It's particularly bad in central Florida. I know the guide comes out annually, but how often is an exhaustive check of the data contained therein made, if at all?

A New Century?

by KD7KGX on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I've never had much of a problem making QSOs on repeaters out of state while traveling.

I don't have a repeater guide... I can see how one would be useful.

Instead, I set my HT (Icom T90) to scan thru the 2m band. When it breaks on a voice conversation, I stop the scan and listen for a squelch tail. If I have found a repeater, I then scan for the PL tone, and save the freq in a memory location. If I had picked up the automated repeater announcement, I will do a short 'monitoring' broadcast to make sure I have the freq offset correct. Often, I will get a call right back because of my region being different, i.e., KD7KGX in Florida. I'm sure this basic technique will work with any rig that can scan a frequency range and has tone scan.

Following this simple method has never failed to identify at least one repeater in any metropolitan area, and I've never had a problem getting a QSO on that repeater IF I am within range for an hour or two. Commute times work well, as well as evenings (7pm to 10pm local time), when most local hams will have their radios on.

One more thing... don't be hesitant to break in on an ongoing QSO if you've listened for a few seconds and they are just rag-chewing. I often use the "how are you copying me?" query to get the conversation going, then talk about my HT/mobile, then tell them where I am and what I'm doing (driving thru on I-XX) and where I'm from. Works every time.

RE: A New Century?

by OLDFART13 on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

To WB2WIK/6, since most repeaters identify every 10 minutes in CW, I am going to assume that your MCW repeater will identify in Voice every 10 minutes.

Don't forget the infamous 11meter CW repeaters down in Carlsbad CA.

RE: A New Century?

by K7IHC on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with a concept that was mentioned above: too many repeaters for the number of operating hams.

Here in the S.F. Bay Area, there are *loads* of 2 m, 440 MHZ, and other band (1.2 GHz, 222 MHz) repeaters. Many of these are wide-area coverage linked systems. I find that only a few repeaters or systems are actually used on a regular basis, but those that are frequented have a good group of users that welcome new hams. During most regular (7 am-11 pm) hours, I can usually find someone to talk to on the active repeaters. It's in the smaller places I travel to, where there's only a few repeaters, that I don't usually receive a response to my call sign on the air. That *might* be due to clique-ish attitudes, but I'm not sure.

As for the *closed* 440 machines, I've found that you can usually be accepted on these by establishing a rapport with the owner/licensee. That's what I did in my area, and it works out well.

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by KE2IV on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Sorry NOTONE,

I don't buy it.

Wasn't born in Brooklyn years ago to fall for this line of crap!

No one at the League would state such things. Unlike you, the ARRL is "INCLUSIVE".

You preach the exclusivity crap that is destroying this noble activity which we love!

BTW: Are you really a ham? Do you have a callsign?

Once again, this shows the fallacy of eHam that it won't restrict access to folks willing to ID themselves!

KE2IV

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by N0TONE on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

KE2IV,

I'm very sorry to see that you have chosen to respond with hostility.

I have offered an explanation for the dearth of activity on repeaters, and the alarming rate at which technician licensees drop out of the service, and have also offered an example of what one local organization does to address at least the second problem.

If you have alternative suggestions, I'm sure everybody on this thread would be happy to hear them.

Your aggressive attack, unfortunately, serves only to demonstrate to non-hams why they might choose to find a more amiable hobby.

AM

RE: A New Century?

by KG4YJR on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

KG4WKY,

I just recently started putting my call out more than once, about every five minutes or so and that was the trick. There is another ham, KE4EG that monitors even more frequently than I and now we have a quick QSO then listen almost everyday on 146.52 in Jacksonville, FL. I know that to the "Ham Gestapo" types a QSO on a calling channel is a sacrilege but it's letting more people passing through that somebody is there.

73
Dave

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by KE2IV on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

"KE2IV,

I'm very sorry to see that you have chosen to respond with hostility.

I have offered an explanation for the dearth of activity on repeaters, and the alarming rate at which technician licensees drop out of the service, and have also offered an example of what one local organization does to address at least the second problem.

If you have alternative suggestions, I'm sure everybody on this thread would be happy to hear them.

Your aggressive attack, unfortunately, serves only to demonstrate to non-hams why they might choose to find a more amiable hobby.

AM"

NOTONE,

Again, I ask.

Do you have a ham license? If so what is your call? Why won't you ID?

Why should I, or any ham, care what you think about anything here if you won't ID?

Cripes, please don't even respond if you won't ID with your callsign!

George,
KE2IV

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by KE2IV on October 24, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

"KE2IV,

I'm very sorry to see that you have chosen to respond with hostility.

I have offered an explanation for the dearth of activity on repeaters, and the alarming rate at which technician licensees drop out of the service, and have also offered an example of what one local organization does to address at least the second problem.

If you have alternative suggestions, I'm sure everybody on this thread would be happy to hear them.

Your aggressive attack, unfortunately, serves only to demonstrate to non-hams why they might choose to find a more amiable hobby.

AM"

NOTONE,

Again, I ask.

Do you have a ham license? If so what is your call? Why won't you ID?

Why should I, or any ham, care what you think about anything here if you won't ID?

Cripes, please don't even respond if you won't ID with your callsign!

George,
KE2IV

A New Century?

by KE4DRN on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Hi,

many members in our club have upgraded to general or extra and enjoy using the newer multiband allmode radios that are available today.

For those of us that can't have towers or visible antenna, mobile hf is the way to go.

With the cycle ending many will return to the repeaters and keep them active.

Our club once had over 450 members, with companies downsizing, many members relocated and our membership has dropped. Another local club is running CW classes on their wide coverage repeater !

73 james

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by N0TONE on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

KE2IV,

OK, we'll play it your way.

The reality is that I listen so much more than I transmit, that my activities and involvement would scarcely be different were I not licensed. I would have been involved in any case because of being an instructor in electronics, and a promoter of emergency preparedness and a consultant who has helped design many radios, amateur and commercial. I would have been exposed to exactly the same things about amateur radio as I have already.

So, now that you can consider me not a licensed ham, but instead someone who is keenly interested in the hobby, what is your perspective on my comments?

AM

RE: A BIG lesson learned from this thread

by KG4YJR on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

At least individuals like N0TONE and FJGH reply with posts that have rational thought out replies, whether we disagree with them or not, instead of the typical emotional outbursts that are typical most of the time. As I've stated before, I applaud eHam for being non-bias and allowing everyone with an opinion to express themselves and I respect everyone's right to do so. I'm not afraid of what I have to say and if I'm proven wrong that's ok with me too therefore I have no problem posting my call sign and watching the lookup numbers ad up on QRZ after a debate on a topic.

I never can understand why so many men like looking up information on other men though.

While some people think that an individual with no call sign posting has no credibility, to me neither does an idiot saying: "you are just a stupid CB'er wanting to ruin my hobby". While I may disagree though with a mental midget like that and tell him so, I never tell a person that they should "shut up" or "go away".
I believe in free speech folks, how about you?

73
Dave

RE: A New Century?

by WB4QNG on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Cell Phones
SK's
Too many repeaters
I agree with all who said these things. Once I wouldn't drive a car without a two meter rig. It was the only way to communicate if your car broke down or you came upon an accident. Now cell phones do these duties. I remember when there wasn't 3 or 4 repeaters and now there are 12. Most of the time they are dead.

RE: A New Century?

by KG4EFA on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

We have 3 repeaters on VHF and 2 on UHF, in my area of Alabama. All 3 of the VHF repeaters are used all the time, and only 1 of the UHF is used, but not much.
Rick KG4EFA.

RE: A New Century?

by KK7AC on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

What does CW have to do with VHF/UHF inactivity??? Last I saw you did not need code to talk on these bands. How is that stearing away hams? .....well I must get back to the CQWW now; 10 meters was in fine shape today. 73, KK7AC

A New Century?

by N0RTU on October 25, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I tried to read most all of the opinions listed here. It's a good thing that we all can post our opinions here and I hope it always stays that way. However, of all the posts here, only two make sense to me.
Comments by G5FSD and the acknowledgement by N3DQU hit the nail on the head.
There are many ways to communicate electronically today. Cell phones and internet are just a couple.
You don't need to take an exam for either of the above. That means that little effort is needed to use these methods of communication. I don't know about anywhere else in the US, but here in the midwest, I've yet to hear anyone say that they have had to take an exam to get a cell phone!
The long and short of all of this is, Ham radio is for those people who tend to be technically oriented. I started as a no-code tech in 1992. I never stopped reading, learning, and studying about radio. It's in my blood. I took and passed the 20 wpm code exam and of course the written exams and now I'm very much proud to say that I hold the extra class license. I worked my ass off for it. I studied, I built some of my shack equipment, and I'm still learning every day about radio and related subjects. It's a simple fact of living that when you work hard for something, you value it much more than if it comes with little work or effort! You respect it, and you always know that your priveledges can be taken away if you screw up!!!!!!!
I would never knowingly interfere with a QSO in progress. Nor would I ever cuss someone on the air. It's not that I havn't felt like cussing a couple of people. But I sure wouldn't throw away my license for it! You see, I hold dear this priveledge! I believe that ten years or so ago, because an entry level license was made relatively easy to get, the ranks swelled. After the new wore off, those without radio "in the blood" just gave it up. It's not that they were bad people, it just wasn't that important to them. I believe this is the crux of the "no code-Know code" debate today. Most of those who want the code requirement done away with will come to ham radio and soon burn out. Most, not all. Those who favor code requirement respect and value their licenses and worked hard for them. True, not all use the code. But they recognise that those who TRULY want the upgraded license will tough it out, grit their teeth and do the code. Those that do will likely stay with ham radio longer and value it more.
I believe the ARRL and the FCC both need to take a look at the core reason why there is an amateur radio service in the first place. Doesn't it go something like this???
"To maintain a pool of proficient radio operators who will advance the radio art and contribute to technology."
I know this isn't the word for word, but the main idea is there.
Ham radio is about radio. It is by its very nature technical. Not all people are technically oriented.(thank God!) Those that are bailing out now are not bad people, perhaps they just aren't technical people.
I feel our ranks will be smaller as other means of electronic communication become available. If these other means don't require tests and skills, the majority will go that way. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so.
Let those who will be true hams with a good spirit withstand the testing and come in.
Those who don't want to test, study, and gain knowledge in the field of radio can go somewhere else. There are many avenues for them now. The internet being only one.
Like the sunspot cycle, I think the "Ham" cycle also naturally varies.
If there isn't much activity on your local 2 meter repeater, I wouldn't worry. I'm sure it will pick up in the future.
However, I wouldn't let lack of 2 meter repeater activity dictate how we test and license our hams.
Lastly, for those who say there is little or no activity on the repeaters in their area, let me ask you this....
Do you make welcome the new ham?
If a new op uses the wrong language or procedure do you scold and put this person down?
I certainly hope not. Perhaps a phone call or face to face meeting is in order to discuss the problem with humility and a nice tone of voice. I've heard several "more experienced" ops in my area "chew out" the less experienced person. This is surely a black eye to hams everywhere.
We can all see the problems before us. We all have a wonderful grasp of the obvious...............
Let's do something about it by taking the lead, being the new persons "first friend" on the air and leading by example. NOT by being critical or just shunning that person. We do have some problems on the bands........but not all of them are the "new operators". Some of our problems can be found by simply looking into the mirror.......

Best wishes and Safe Hamming to All
Mike
N0RTU

A New Century?

by K0ZXU on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I've returned to Ham Radio after 35 years, and I'm enjoying as much as I can -- repeaters, HF, a little DX, digital and so on.

I don't think repeaters are dead or dying, but I do think it takes a little patience to connect up.

Here in the San Francisco Bay area, I've found several repeaters with interesting, intelligent Hams who enjoy a good QSO. That's not to say I always get a response when I announce that I'm listening.

Some Hams may be lurking but just don't feel gregarious at the moment I call. Others may have just finished a QSO and they are all talked out. But several times a week I'll have a very interesting conversation. And nearly always, when I explain I've just returned after 35 years, they welcome me back warmly and offer suggestions on gear, modes, etc.

I do think Hams who use a repeater frequently should help support the costs of the operation. Generally that means joining the club and paying dues, and that can lead to knowing more people on that repeater.

IRLP and EchoLink are making repeaters more fun, too. I recently took part in a late-night 4-way QSO involving Hams in Sacramento, the UK and New Zealand. This was on an EchoLink-connected 440 repeater. (And no, I didn't think of that as DXing. It was just letting technology enhance our hobby to allow some interesting new people onto the local repeater.)

I sometimes use EchoLink to link to a repeater in Iowa where I grew up. I'm beginning to get to know people who live there who I never knew back then. It's a nice link back to my roots. I just talked to a Ham driving his family though my home town and who checked the local repeater for someone to talk to. His family was impressed he was talking to California.

I wouldn't want FM repeaters to be my only Ham mode, but they are one enjoyable part of this great hobby.

A New Century?

by WB8NUT on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Part of the problem is that too many hams have no idea how to carry on a conversation. Some are so boring, I could scream. Then there are those that feel the need to repeat back everything you said, "o.k. on the new motorcycle not running right and that you are going to do a rebuild,....." or " fine business on the son getting some girl pregnant and you need to get her married and find a way to pay for the wedding and can't find a band for the reception..." YIKES - people - learn to converse and stop talking about your aches and pains and your wife's operation and your dead friend. Get interesting and people will want to talk!

A New Century?

by N6JSX on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Getting my re-start in HAMdom in LA I can say that it is not as dead as you may think (even though I've been gone for over 10 yrs.) Most of the shit chat is during the commuting hours.

However, I moved back to my homw town in Wisc. and lived there for about 8 yrs. Now they have dead repeater systems. One reason was the Owner/licensee did not like non-technical husband & wife type chit chats and turned the system off on users. (We are convinced this licensee is psycotic but.) Another repeater is plaugued with nepotism/buddism and if you are not in the family you will be ignored.

BUT the MOST significant problem with Wide coverage repeaters and repeater support groups is the gut ripping politics that seem to dominate repeaters.

But now I'm on Ohio and, yes, the repeaters seem to only have users on during the commuting times or NETS. Otherwise they are silent with few monitoring. One Repeater the highest in the state is usually always busy - some interesting topics - like the old days of HAMdom. They got an interesting Train NET and you can aloways find some one to talk too. I do sense some politics but they seem to keep it in check. A fun repeater to use.

I have put up and coordinated my own 440 repeater that will eventually turn into a HF remote base with 24/7 NOAA Alerts. My repeater is dead too - but I don;t mind this as when the HF system goes in operation I do not want many users or I won't be able to play HF remotely with an HT.

But the prime reason I feel repeaters are going down hill is due to the technical requirments of the users are also going down hill. The old days we had to design/build, construct. Today, it is THEE "rice box" with HAMdom evolving into rice box operators. The old fashion technical conversations and sharing of widedom is passing as the "required" technical levels of this hobby are degrading.
The other reason (at least for LA) is there is little worry that Uncle Charlie will catch you being a LID - only if you are obvious and have a routine. Overall our socioty has littel respect for the laws of the land and HAMdom has fewer for Part 97.

As we watch the Enron's, Clinton's, Nixon's, OJ's, and pot smokers getting 20 yrs but petifile priests getting off and other obvious travisties of injustace - all that is being re-afirmed daily to our youth is the golden rule - those who have the gold - rule! Thanks to the yellow journalism and the ratings based news media of 1980's on.

RE: A New Century?

by K4JSR on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Cell phones have replaced the major use for repeaters:
The autopatch. I hate to admit it, but repeater usage
dropped in proportion to cell phone popularity.
I can remember 30 years ago when repeaters and autopatches were the "new toys" on the block.
You could spot a new ham with his talkie that was as
big as a present day 2 meter rig and his acoustically
coupled DTMF pad showing all of his friends what he
could do, and they could not -- because they were not
radio hams. It was a frequent sighting in the Atlanta area, especially right after a radio club
meeting -- usually in a 807 joint.
I sure miss the 807's! :-)
In the afternoons you could hear 20 -30 autopatches
in a row being made by hams who had just left their
offices, filled with telephones, to call their XYL's
and let them know that they were leaving work.
Of course after the peak autopatch traffic time passed, the hams would stick around and chew the rag
for while. How many of us would get on a repeater and
rag chew now after completing a cell phone call?
Times have changed and so has repeater usage.
Maybe when everyone gets tired of having dead silence
on the repeater freq's some of the repeaters will go away. This would force those remaining to go to the
surviving repeaters and actually have a QSO.
73 Cal K4JSR

A New Century?

by K0RFD on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

There's nothing *wrong* with repeaters, and God bless the volunteers who build them, coordinate them, and run them.

Amateur radio is a complex hobby or service (depending on your point of view) that has many, many aspects.

Repeaters are perhaps the most utilitiarian aspect of the entire Amateur Radio hobby/service. Do I use repeaters for QSOs? No. Do I consider repeaters to be fun? No, not me. Do I have a cell phone for emergencies? Sure. Can I get cellphone service everywhere in Colorado? Not on your life. Not in THIS state, were line-of-sight is a rarity that has to be carefully sought after and studied. When I am driving from here to visit my daughter in Durango, over 3 passes that top out over 10,000 feet, there are many places where the "no service" message appears on my cellphone. Man, am I ever glad that nameless, faceless, but dedicated people make sure the repeaters are there 24/7, because there's always somebody on 2 meters. Why? Because the repeater operators are motivated only by the simple desire to do a good job, whereas the cellphone companies are motivated by minimizing towers so they can maximize profits.

Not everything needs to be fun, or even overutilized, to be valuable. To all you repeater operators out there, thanks for the important service you provide. Just knowing you're there is a comfort.

A New Century?

by K0RGR on October 26, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Two meters is not what it used to be , but on a recent trip from SE Minnesota to Raleigh, NC, I had no trouble finding 2 meter activity everywhere I looked.

My secret was that I had a rig whose many memories could easily be programmed into 'banks'. The flexible memory arrangement also lets me program as many or as few memories as I like into each bank. I programmed a bank for each state I passed through, using the ARRL's PC-based repeater atlas as a guide. My rig (IC-2720) has two VFO knobs. I would set one VFO to scan the bank for the state I was in, and the other one to scan either the previous state or the next state. Thus, I always had the right PL tones programmed in, no fuss!

A combination of several VHF and UHF repeaters cover SE MN and Western Wisconsin. Shortly out of range of those repeaters, I found two folks having a QSO on .52 and was amazed to be able to work them for a very long time, until I was in range of another set of active repeaters. Once over the Illinois border, and all the way deeply into Indiana, I could hear and work the high level repeaters in the Chicago area - no lack of activity there, even on a working day for most people. Lots of people on in Indianapolis and in northern Kentucky. I didn't hear much in WVA or VA, but I was too busy driving in the hills to do much hamming. Once again, I found lots of repeaters near the bigger cities in North Carolina, with lots of activity. I checked into a net in Raleigh from Durham just to see if I could.

I've had similar success on trips to the west, but it can be a real pain to program all those frequencies, even with a computer, the first time, and my old Standard rig was very hard to reprogram. Sadly, I had trouble finding a QSO in the Bay Area, too, even though there probably is no place in America with more hams per square mile! Too many of the open repeaters have gone away, including the ones I was involved with years ago. There were too many on the air out there 25 years ago, too - mostly dead boxes that are never used. We do need a 'pruning process' for dead repeaters that take away frequencies from groups that would actually use them.

I was very encouraged by what I heard. Often, two meters is just dead in this area. From my hilltop location, I can hear large parts of three states, but there are often times when I can scan all the standard two meter frequencies and find nothing on. So, it was great to see that to the east of here, in more densely popluated areas, two meters is much more alive.

One big problem we have here is an older Extra Class with an alcohol problem. He is well meaning, but nobody likes talking to a drunk, even a well meaning one. He has run off a lot of newbies. I haven't heard him on for a couple weeks since I said something to one of his best friends - perhaps the concerns reached him in another way. Put away the bottle or the microphone, either way is fine.

A New Century?

by AB9FH on October 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Move to Milwaukee. We have several active repeaters. I spend 90% of my time on 1, but I can hit 3-4 with 2w from the HT into a mag mount antenna. It makes a very interesting way to fill in a 30 minute commute. It is the same people most of the time. I am fortunate that they are friendly, curious (politely if ever not genuninely), and willing to share experiences and advice. I have learned a great deal about the kinds of local events that hams support and was able to link up with a group doing a Kids Day event. There are nets most nights of the week. The club to which I belong has a less active repeater but recent changes have increased it's usefulness, I hope it too will see more action.

I figure, if somebody is getting tired of hearing *my* voice on the repeater, serves 'em right for their own silence. Their best approach is to get on themselves and then I will get proportionately less airtime!

On the simplex side of things, check out http://www.qsl.net/mrac/FMContest2004.html.

Howard Parks, AB9FH
1 Peter 4:10

A New Century?

by K3VO on October 27, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

1. Pl for one has created a problem for transit stations passing thru an area.
2. New techs were sold HTs and the repeaters were full of marginial signials.
3.The new rigs are a pain to change freq unless you have them pre programed. There was a lot to be said for the early gear where you just turned the knob to a new pair. Now push the wrong button and you lose everything. Icom, Kenwood, Yaseau make you rigs user friendly again.
4.We are going to lose 2 meters if we do not use it.
Bet your boots industry is monitoring the big band for lack of activity. If you think repeater useage is bad try 2 meter SSB. We have more rigs with 2 meter SSG ie Ic-746, TS-2000 etc and zip activity except contests.
I have asked both the editors of the VHF col. of CQ and QST to get a calling freq on 2 meter SSB for guys with vert. polirized. Most guys have a vert but not a horiz yagi. Get them chatting and get the interest up. Both thought it was not a great idea but would publize it. Well ,still waiting.
They may think its a dumb idea mean while they use their rigs twice a year.
We ask for more bands and do not use what we have. Time for some leadership in this hobby.
We are in a new wireless age and schools think ham radio clubs are also a dumb idea.
Yes the hobby will die and we are putting the nails in the coffin
Ed K3VO

RE: A New Century?

by K6BBC on October 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Great post K3VO!

K6BBC

RE: A New Century?

by N2MG on October 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Some of the same guys who complain about the bands (HF bands mostly) being somehow "too" crowded because there's "no room" for their favorite operating style/mode during contests, are complaining here that the bands are too empty.

Guys, can you not see the double standard?

You seem to want more hams "like yourself" (rag chewers, chatters, DXers, net operators) on the band, but no contesters.

God forbid several thousand more operators than average get on the band on a few weekends and start "making noise". Gee - what will become of us, then?

Mike N2MG

RE: A New Century?

by KE4USZ on October 28, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I feel the same way. I live in san diego, and I haven't been able to find a decent repeater that is 'open'. Maybe it's because I am listening at the wrong times?

A New Century?

by WB8ROL on October 29, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Here's a NOVEL idea ..... try something besides 2 mtrs and 440 ...... There is part of a 220 mhz band left even though Ham ops and the A.R.R.L. have largely ignored it and gave it to UPS or whoever. Instead of following the herd -- make a new path or try a less traveled one. Ever hear of 900 mhz or 1.2 gig? I know they aren't talked up by the league but hey -- lots of room. Show a little interest and the manufacturers will be there ....

220 mhz in the Dayton Ohio area is sparse and 900 mhz and 1.2 gig is really barren.

BTW, 220 mhz actually kicks 2 mtrs butt, in my opinion, when it comes to mobile/rptr operation. More "X's" but not as big. On 2 mtrs you chop out under many conditions where on 220 you just flutter fast ....

Then again, just keep complaining about 2 mtrs and give the rest of vhf and uhf to UPS and such ....

A New Century?

by W3RAZ on October 30, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

I remember when I first got my license (then N8VQJ) and the repeaters were hopping. There was one real busy one and a couple that we would go to after meeting on the others. The FLAGSHIP K8DRE repeater had links on 6m, 10m (only turned on by some control ops), 220 and 440. Now, 2m is the only link that works half decently, We only have 1 6m repeater in the county and it's not even listed and half the time it does not work. I do get involved in nets but my prime interest now is HF...until the band drops off and they are heading that way now. Ragchews on the local machines are rare now but I do get in one at least once a week. I so want to get a FT-817 to carry back and forth to work so that I can talk during breaks on 20 and 40. Trying to convince the XYL to let me get it. My wife would rather me spend the 900 bucks on another computer (a Mac is my suggestion) then a nice portable setup for myself. All of my money must be spent for the "family" benefit is the way my wife sees it (nevermind that it may help our family in a disaster). I think what will happen is the ones that are not in use as much will close up and then the few that ar eleft will get busier. I hope so anyway!

I do remember listening to the original W3RAZ, my grandfather, talk alot on the repeaters. 2m was his thing as well as 10m. Well, that time has come and gone. I don't think things will ever be as busy as they were back then. The pro CW crowd needs to realize.....kids don't want anything to do with CW and having it as a requirement is a detriment. In this months QST I read a Op-Ed complaing about Echolink and other internet linking systems and them saying it isn't ham radio yet I see it as one of the few innovations of the last few years (well, that and the feeble digital voice radio schemes). Kids would rather PAY the cell phone companies and internet companies. Maybe we need to advertise the better quality of analog and our other modes. Maybe we need to focus on the thign that I see....ham radio is better then a cellphone.

For W3RAZ

by N0TONE on November 1, 2003 Mail this to a friend!

Welcome to ham radio. Sounds like you're a recent inductee.

Here's my idea for you and your portable rig dilemma. For $900, you can get/assemble a used PC or Mac that will do anything a sane person needs, and have $700 left over for the rig.

A buddy of mine works at a place which has picnic tables out back where the employees gather and eat the lunches they brought from home. There's one tree about 40 feet high. He got permission from the owner (it's only a small company) to put an antenna in the tree. He just slingshotted wire over the top, let the other end hang, broke the wire at about 15 feet, and fed it more or less as a vertical dipole.

Rather than lunching with the rest of the crowd at noon, he takes his two baloney sandwiches, an Icom IC-706 and a pair of 7AH gel-cells out to the picnic tables about 1:30 pm, and works a bunch of DX while enjoying his late lunch. Perhaps you can work out something like this, too.

As far as promoting ham radio versus cell phones, I think you're better off not even comparing them. Comparing ham radio to cell phones is like comparing a sports car to a racing bicycle. Both are extremely good at what they do, but they are intended for completely different purposes.

A cell phone is intended to let you talk to whoever you want to, whenever you want to. But you must know them already - and know their number. And, it can only be you and one other person, unless you want to pay rapidly mounting fees for three-way calling. AND, it's a private conversation, not a party line.

On ham radio, the whole point is to accidentally hook up to anybody who might be listening. And, unlike the internet, they won't be other computer fanatics. They may be people completely different from you. That's the mystery. They might be in a country where there is NO internet (there are lots of such countries, like most of Africa).

Even the old hard-core die-hard CW ops have cell phones. It doesn't substitute for anything ham radio used to be used for. After all, even on channelized repeaters, you were not well assured that your buddy would be listening when you called for him. But he'd sure answer the phone, and the phone had an answering machine.

It's not about CW. It's about the mystery, and the not knowing who you're going to befriend today. You can't do that on a cellphone, unless you want to risk having someone refer to you as a prank caller!

AM

RE: For W3RAZ

by KF8ZR on July 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Never seen a 1 x 4 callsign before but I agree with the N0TONE 1 x 4 callsign that we can't really compare the cell phones with ham radios.

There are plenty of active repeaters out here. Not sure what your problem is. One key method I found is that I looked in the repeater directory and entered any repeaters in the area even if they are out of the area then any normally used simplex frequencies. I also operate packet so I find activity there too.

My mobile radio is 2 meters monobander with 30 channels and also a 10 meter rig so if I can't find activity on 2meters I try 10meters.

Hope these suggestions help.

A New Century?

by VU2PEP on September 14, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

This reminds me of an incident. I visited Bangalore
in 1986, when they had the first ever VHF repeater.
The only city in India to have some semblance of activity. I called cq for 2 days no one came back. The city boasted of 50 active hams on VHF. I got
frustrated and gave a couple of calls on CW, I had a big pile-up asking me not to do this.

I am afraid things have not changed to this day.

A New Century?

by KF6CZG on February 8, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Don't know where you are in the LA Area, but there's a nice machine in Alta Loma (north of Rancho) on 145.440 _ PL 136.5, and the CLARA repeater on Santiago Peak (Orange County) is nice. Technically a closed system, but they tend to be friendly. 145.220 - PL 103.5

However, I do understand what you mean. I can hit over 10 machines from my apartment with an HT and only those 2 ever have much activity aside from nets.

Oh, and this'll get me flamed, but try out Echolink. The Missing Lynk system has got a ton of activity, day or night, node #272345. If you want a friendly group they can't be beat, just throw your call/QTH out and odds are somebody will come back.

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