Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
J K (NE2Q)
on
October 23, 2003
View comments about this article!
(This sounds more like a Speak Out topic, but since it doesn't have anything to do with code/no-code, why not! :^) -- ed)
http://www.fcc.gov/homeland/
This is a link to the FCC's page introducing their thoughts and approach to Homeland Security. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see links to Chairman Powell's Statement, Commissioner Copp's Statement, and a 29-page report about FCC and Homeland Security.
I searched all the documents for the word Amateur & the word Ham. -- No Match Found!
Anyone care to see if Hams or Amateurs are mentioned in these important documents, action plan and speeches? Or maybe they have a different name for us!
Jay Kolinsky... NE2Q
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 23, 2003
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Unlike most of you, on the morning of 9/11/01 I was at what is now called Ground Zero.
I was lucky enough to be at the corner of Church and Fulton Sts. waiting for the light to change to cross when the first plane hit 1WTC.
Thereafter, I witnessed horrid sights of innocent victims throwing themselves from a flaming tower until, after the second hit, I finally high-tailed it out of there.
What I saw and experienced will always be my private thoughts and burden.
You who were not there can never know what I saw.
But from the garbage I see daily posted on this site, I am not surprised that there is no mention of ham radio in any kind of real EC recovery.
If you read the stuff here you can readily understand why no emergency organization would ever include ham radio operators as an integral component of response.
While individual HR EC groups may develop local liaisons, there is no way that even they can be relied upon in a true crisis
Would you put your life or the lives of your loved ones in the hands of the people who think that the survival of CW is the most important issue in communications?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K6BBC on October 23, 2003
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Dear George,
My wife and I visited Ground Zero last summer to pay our respects. Frankly, it was too overpowering being at that holy place to even partially understand the horror of that day.
Tony, K6BBC
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC7ZMV on October 23, 2003
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Even more broadly(hi) The FCC would like to get rid of amateur radio entirely. The reason? All spectrum should generate revenue for private business(except the military). So BPL is just the beginning. We have no chance. If the resaons were for the betterment of the society, then so be it, but profit is not a good enough reason in my view.
Jim
KC7ZMV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K9KJM on October 23, 2003
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No matter how many really good things amateur radio
operators have done for the welfare of this country.
I was very alarmed to see an article in a trade
journal written by a FCC commissioner about the
BPL as though that was already a done deal!
NO mention of any possible "problems" with other
services..........
(See Mobile Radio Technology (MRT) Magazine,
Oct. 2003, Page 47, Comments by FCC Commissioner
Kathleen Q Abernathy)
Those hams who continue to think that CW testing is
one of the "Big" problems facing the hobby better
wake up and see the real threats to this once great
hobby.
Apparently the good things we have all done in the
past count for pretty close to zero nowadays in the
eyes of some FCC Commissioners............
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AC7WL on October 23, 2003
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Previously posted by KE2IV:
"What I saw and experienced will always be my private thoughts and burden. "
"You who were not there can never know what I saw."
While I certainly agree that what happened was horrible, and was one of the greater disasters/acts of terror we have experienced in this country, I am annoyed by someone wearing their presence there as some sort of badge of honor... The simple fact of the matter is, most of us know exactly what you saw and/or observed, otherwise, no one would react to it with the the horror that this country has. Furthermore, as a U.S. Military Police officer stationed in the Middle East in 1992, 1995, and from 1996-1999, no one back here seemed to care to much when our barracks were bombed, when a ship was nearly sunk, or embassies incinerated until it happened over here (which, by the way, was the running prediction at our station). Add to that the gaggle over federal funds by family members of victims after the WTC disaster, and I really had a hard time feeling any sort of empathy for them while U.S. service members were getting their legs blown off or getting shot up in an ambush, and their families getting whatever SGLI might have them covered for.
As for the topic at hand, I cannot say I really blame the FCC, particularly given the code/no code flame wars which seem to be the "cours de jour" here on eham and to some degree on QRZ as well (no doubt someone will be trolling here shortly). Furthermore, the lack of any sort of acknowledgement by the FCC does not mean that you could not assist in time of disaster. We have just finished a flood warning situation up here in the Pacific Northwest and ARES was activated, from the traffic I heard, it sounded like these folks were doing a great job of assisting local disaster relief efforts. I suppose you also have to remember that you are an AMATEUR, one particular group had some "nifty" code words which honestly had me wondering whether these individuals had any sort of "real" life or spent to much time watching movies, anxiously awaiting their 15 minutes of fame.
Just my humble opinion...
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by HIGHQ on October 23, 2003
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Even more broadly(hi) The FCC would like to get rid of amateur radio entirely. The reason? All spectrum should generate revenue for private business(except the military). So BPL is just the beginning. We have no chance. If the resaons were for the betterment of the society, then so be it, but profit is not a good enough reason in my view.
Jim
KC7ZMV
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by G5FSD on October 23, 2003
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>The FCC would like to get rid of amateur radio entirely.
It's not up to them. The Amateur Service is defined by the ITU - it is INTERNATIONAL.
Besides, do you really think they could, with half a million licencees to complain about such a move?!
As long as IARU member societies continue to represent the wishes of millions of people at World Radio Conferences, the hobby isn't going away any time soon.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W5JBP on October 23, 2003
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http://www.citizencorps.gov/programs/affiliate.shtm#arrl
You will find amateur radio listed here. Citizen Corps is a division of the Department of Homeland Security.
Jim
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AA4PB on October 23, 2003
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...no emergency organization would ever include ham radio operators as an integral component of response.
This is just not true. Ham radio is involved with emergency response organizations on both a local and a national level. Ham radio operators participated in the response in New York, in Penn., and at the Pentagon. If you read QST or check the ARRL web site you find that ham radio is involved with emergency response all over the country (hurricanes, floods, fires, etc).
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N3HKN on October 23, 2003
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Yes, we ALL saw the terror of 9/11 on TV. Those of us that whatched it live saw the falling bodies and the noise that they made when they hit the roof where the police had to shelter so as to not be struck by them.
I 100% agree that payments to victims of 9/11 should NEVER have exceed those made to service personnel who either were killed or seriously injured in ANY conflict or event! That was almost akin to our slimy politicians charging veterans for meals at the hospital or dumping vets in Baltimore and forcing them to pay for transport home. DISGUSTING!
The involvement of Hams at a national level is understood, but perhaps it is not fully ratified. The ARRL should seek to clarify our standing with Homeland Security. Perhaps it is clear but not widely understood. In any case the Amateur Radio community needs to know exactly where we stand. Once knowing that we need to organize within that framework to be able to provide the proper response and not become part of the problem.
I do agree that the silly ranting about CW is, well goofy. Mindless bickering will not change anything. It only offers a few a soapbox that they need to function on a daily basis.
Dick N3HKN
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by CWTITAN on October 23, 2003
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I think you are way off the mark. Better do some more homework. In the first place, the FCC can not abolish Amateur radio, and BPL is NOT a done deal.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WB7RBN on October 23, 2003
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Well we are suppose to exist. After 911, the FCC estabished a Strategic Goal for Homeland Security which includes a Action Plan. The Action Plan clearly starts that: "The Plan relies heavily on partnerships with other government entities, industry, and citizen groups." I think we fall in the definition of a citizen group.
When I posted my comments on the BPL issue I used the FCC's own words for their Strategic Goal for Homeland Security since BPL will impact those goals. Not to bore you with complete text of my comments here is the FCC homeland security portion.
Homeland Security
The FCC's strategic goal for Homeland Security is to provide leadership in evaluating and strengthening the Nation’s communications infrastructure, in ensuring rapid restoration of that infrastructure in the event of disruption, and in ensuring that essential public health and safety personnel have effective communications services available to them in emergency situations.
Description
In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, all Americans were reminded of the importance of reliable, easily available, and interoperable communications systems – both for emergency personnel responding to a tragedy and individuals checking on friends and family. Much of what the FCC does either directly or indirectly affects the national security or emergency preparedness telecommunications activities of the public and private sectors.
Objectives
To fully and effectively carry out its role in promoting homeland security, network protection, interoperability, redundancy, and reliability, the FCC has established the following objectives:
· Evaluate and strengthen measures for protecting the Nation’s communications infrastructure.
· Facilitate rapid restoration of the U.S. communications infrastructure and facilities after disruption by a threat or attack.
· Develop policies that promote access to effective communications services by public safety, public health, and other emergency and defense personnel in emergency situations.
Action Plan
On July 10, 2003, the Commission announced its Homeland Security Action Plan. The Plan defines the Commission’s homeland security goals as well as the approach it will take to achieve these goals. The Plan relies heavily on partnerships with other government entities, industry, and citizen groups.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE4MOB on October 23, 2003
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Uhh....the FCC can (and has) completely shut down amateur radio before. Read your history. For example, it was none other than the OM himself (Hiram Percy Maxim for the uneducated) who went to Washington after WWI and lobbied to allow hams to get back on the air.
There are countries right now that do not allow ham radio operators to operate. What the FCC giveth, the FCC can taketh away. Your license is a privlege courtesy of Uncle Sam, not a right bestowed by international treaty.
95% of ham radio spectrum is used for nothing but glorified CB. Maybe 60 meters is the wave of the future....
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 23, 2003
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Yes we exist in the Eyes of the FCC. I have reviewed the documents and while the words "Amateur" or "Ham" doesn't appear in the documents, it is clear that the documents are referring to Amateur Radio operators as "other emergency personnel" This appears to be defined "separately" from "Public safety personnel"
The F.C.C.'s current objectives in homeland security are as follows:
Strengthen measures for protecting the nations
communications infrastructure and facilitate rapid services.
Restoration after disruption.
Promote access to effective communications services by
public safety, public health and other emergency personnel.
Enhance the Commission’s emergency response
capabilities.
Currently the F.C.C.'s Public Communications and Safety Recommendations are as follows:
– Public / private partnerships to achieve effective
emergency communications (*Note: PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS MEANING AMATEUR COMMUNICATIONS)
– State and Local government coordination with media
on delivery of emergency communications
– Periodic testing and review of the Emergency Alert
System
– Research alternate emergency communications
systems (ALTERNATE MEANS? HMMM...WHO COULD THIS BE?)
-Other initiatives that promote development of first
responder interoperability standards (FIRST RESPONDER?)
The documents also discusses agencies involvement such as FEMA. This is where Amateur Radio operators seem to fall into place in the pyramid of things.
Under the FEMA network called "FCC Critical Infrastructure and NS/EP Communications Relationships" Under the two tiered system under FEMA, emergency assistance groups are described as follows:
FEMA 1 --->> (CDRG) "Catastrophic Disaster Response Group" --->> (IAG) "Inter agency Advisory Group"
FEMA 2 --->> (ESF) "Emergency Support Team" --->> "Emergency Support Function #2 Communications"
--->> (CWG) "Comm Working Group"
This organizational chart plan under FEMA has the smell of Amateur Radio stained all over it. Hmmm. I wonder what "Emergency Support Function # 2 Communications" would be huh?
If you read the objective statements on homeland security communication protocols, they clearly indicate that they wish to establish more interoperability amognst "both" the "Public and Private" sectors during times of emergency.
This has historically been the primary role of Amateur Radio operators in the past.
Secondly, there has been a big push and funding provided to the Amateur Radio operator community. This training would provide additional emergency communication resources for "enhanced" public services during times of emergency.
To find ARECC Certification Instructors and/or Certification Examiners go here: http://www.arrl.org/cce/
73
Charles Bushell
KC8VWM
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 23, 2003
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After reading the document some more it makes better sense that the F.C.C. would refer to us as "Emergency Communications Personnel" as opposed to "Amateur or Ham" radio operators.
After all, how does it look to to the general public to publish words like "Amateur" listed in their emergency communication plans?
73
Charles Bushell
KC8VWM
"Emergency Communications Personnel"
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
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Someone has to inject some reality here.
The value of Ham radio to the public generally, and specifically to "homeland security" is minimal, and dropping by the day. Gasp! Why would I say that? Look at the facts:
1) With the advent of multiple independant cell networks and tri-mode phones, the odds that wirelines, Verizon, AT&T, & Cingular networks would ALL be down simulatineously for a significant period is quite remote. Have you ever seen a cop without a cellphone?;
2) Public safety communications systems are being hardened by and adding redundancy and back-up power; Talk-around channels (Simplex for when the repeater goes down) are ubiquitious. Multiple reciever sites with overlapping coverage are being installed within larger P.S. repeater networks. P.S. people are not as "helpless" or technically "incompetent" as some would have you think.
3) Sales of self contained suitcase repeaters using a cigarette lighter for power and a mag mount antenna are up. These can be set up by any cop or fireman that can plug in a cigarette lighter cord, place a mag mount antenna on the roof of a car, and flip a switch. Trust me here, they don't need us for this.
4) As for the public at large, between FRS, GMRS, & CB, a HUGE section of the population already has communications capibillity which rivals your 2 meter HT!
Therefore, the odds that Ham radio would be the "only means of communications" for any significant period is unlikely, except for the "doomsday sinereo". And let's face it, under a doomsday sinereo, communications will be a low priority compaired to breathing uncontaminated air!
Now, many hams living in a fantasy world of "ham radio as our savior" in an emergency will be very angry with me. But FACTS are FACTS. Time we understood reality.
Technology has made us FAR less valuable then in days gone by. And that's why we don't rate in the FCC's eyes.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 23, 2003
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Knowing individuals who are ""professional"" public health and safety workers, not weekend warrior hobbyists, they have shared with me that they do appreciate our efforts but have said that in the very near future they will have their new digital and satellite communication systems implemented full time. While my wife and I volunteer for disaster drills and are pleased to do so, we are not members of our local ARES chapter. Too much cronyism and politics.
73
Dave
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE4ZHN on October 23, 2003
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Yes, we do! And yes we DO assist in emergency communication, the FCC knows this. To hear all the doomsayers, amateur radio will be gone by next week, so you best get all your hamming done quick cause the big BPL monster is going to wipe us all out....yeah uh huh.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4GVQ on October 23, 2003
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W9WHe,
While I agree with your post in theory, please remember that cellular phones require landlines to work. So if landlines go out, cellular communications in that are will be down as well.
Also, while many folks have access to FRS and GMRS radios, these cannot compare to the capabilities of a 50+ watt 144mhz radio running through a repeater.
While ham radio may not be the only means of communications in an emergency, it can certainly help to spread the traffic out.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K4JRB on October 23, 2003
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Unfortunately we are out of sight out of mind with both the FCC and the Federal Government. I have found that most think we just get in the way and while we get all the press they do not like this.
Just look at the situation with RACES, FEMA, and ARES.
In may states RACES no longer exists. The ARRL is working hard to get amateur radio to be an integral part of FEMA and the local state EMA's. Inroads have been made in Homeland Security but there are still many
who feel we are untrained interlopers.
The ARRL must speed up the process with FEMA. ARES should be the official amateur radio arm of FEMA. The remaining RACES/CD organizations in the states where they still exist must fold into FEMA/EMA, and hams must stop all the chatter aginst other hams on forums such as eHam,the e-mail reflectors, and the various newsgroups. The catch word is "be positive." This comes directly from high ranking FCC officials.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
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KG4GVQ writes:
"Also, while many folks have access to FRS and GMRS radios, these cannot compare to the capabilities of a 50+ watt 144mhz radio running through a repeater".
True, but if the P.S. repeater is down, why would the ham repeater be up?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AJ5F on October 23, 2003
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I went to the Web site suggested above:
http://www.citizencorps.gov/programs/affiliate.shtm#arrl
From what I read, it appears the federal government only recognizes the ARRL to assist in times when emergency communications are needed.
I am not a League member. Does this mean all my years of training and experience in emergency communications are worthless?
Does this mean I will not be allowed by the government to communicate in case of a compromise in Homeland Security?
Probably not, but the thought is a little scary!
73,
AJ5F
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE4PJW on October 23, 2003
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> 95% of ham radio spectrum is used for nothing but glorified CB.
I didn't know our spectrum was being used for private, two-way, short-distance voice communications for personal or business activities of the general public.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB1GMX on October 23, 2003
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RE:w9whe
>>Gasp! Why would I say that? Look at the facts:
Those are not facts, they are assumptions.
>>1) With the advent of multiple independant cell networks and tri-mode phones, the odds that wirelines, Verizon, AT&T, & Cingular networks would ALL be down simulatineously for a significant period is quite remote. Have you ever seen a cop without a cellphone?<<
No I havent. I know a few that curse them for the deadspots and resort to the radio. Cellphones give them one thing, MULTIPLE CHANNELS OF PRIVATE communications. They are not unilaterally reliable nor are they secure in that the can be relied on during a communications emergency.
However the problem in NYC was twofold... all of the big sell guys were fond of the supertower (WTC) so they were colocated. The other was the 1+MILLION phone carrying civilions within 5 blocks of there trying to use the network at the same time. The system didn't go down completely before it was
grossly overloaded and then the building went down.
Remember line of sight in 40story contry (Manhatten NYC) is a very different thing from LOS in Kansas.
>2) Public safety communications systems are being hardened by and adding redundancy and back-up power; Talk-around channels (Simplex for when the repeater goes down) are ubiquitious. Multiple reciever sites with overlapping coverage are being installed within larger P.S. repeater networks. P.S. people are not as "helpless" or technically "incompetent" as some would have you think. <<<
No they are not incompetent by any means. However they also are not flexible. They are still limited to the limitations of VHF-low, VHF-hi or UHF and the channelization scheme of their radios.
>3) Sales of self contained suitcase repeaters using a cigarette lighter for power and a mag mount antenna are up. These can be set up by any cop or fireman that can plug in a cigarette lighter cord, place a mag mount antenna on the roof of a car, and flip a switch. Trust me here, they don't need us for this. <<
I'm also a commercial op of some 30+ years, My home turf was eastern LI and NYC and included three commercial UHF repeaters when they were in vogue. I've even installed a few of the "suitcase repeaters" and they are pretty neat in recent years. Yep the "yabut" is that a 25w UHF repeater with an antenna at 8ft (top of fire truck) agl still has limited UHF range and dead spots showing within a few CITY BLOCKS. While used in NYC the limitations of free channels to use and all that concrete really did point out limitations.
>>>4) As for the public at large, between FRS, GMRS, & CB, a HUGE section of the population already has communications capibillity which rivals your 2 meter HT!<<
Yep, a resource of hardware again. It's about OPERATORS trained to handle traffic and SKILLs to needed when the system is broke. This is about getting messages through be it cell, CB,FRS,GMRS or MURS and even ham. Whatever works is good, the skills needed to use it effectively, cooperatively and efficiently in difficult conditions is what it's about.
Oh, RE: being there. From those I've spoken to that were it wasn't about talking on their fancy 2m radio. It was about getting computers going, wiring phones, fixing lights, replacing fuses and getting power in place for a line of emergency workers on phones and often plain getting dirty.
Allison
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB9RHA on October 23, 2003
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Why should we be mentioned in definite plans? We're volunteers, nothing more. Yes, there's ARES/RACES and you can bet your life they'll be there, however, they're still volunteers. I am in no way bashing ARES/RACES, however, if I was the person coming up with emergency plans for anything as serious as 9-11, my primary concern would be the military and such, NOT volunteer organizations. Yes, I know we have volunteer fire departments. :D
73, Chris KB9RHA
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W5HTW on October 23, 2003
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W9WHE put it succinctly. Technology has made us almost (but not quite yet) obsolete for emergencies. Hastening the arrival of obsolescence are the hams who think we are God's gift to the government, who think we are not "amateurs" but are "professionals" and should be awarded such status. I've seen the looks on the faces of some local authorities here and elsewhere when you mention ham radio. "No thanks."
KE4MOB is right, too. Ham radio was curtailed during World War II, for example. After the war the reason we were reinstated was simple enough. We had proved we had what it takes to be drafted into the military, put into the field with hard to use and hard to repair radio equipment, and make it work in hard to survive conditions. And we could do so with very little training. When the war ended, most hams had been in the military. We knew military procedures, prosigns and the code, and we could piece together a radio from parts and get it on the air. We were indeed that "pool or trained operators and technicians for emergency backup." We were the "radio reserves" for the US Government.
We are NEITHER today! Most of us barely know where the PTT button is on our SuperBanderHopper, and we have long since forgotten what prosigns are. Half of us don't know any kind of operating procedure at all. The military doesn't need Morse operators, and it trains its own computer operators.
Virtually NONE of us are electronics experts, unless by chance that happens to be what we do for a living, and even then it is more likely in computers, not radio, not electronics, but LANS and WANS. That portion of the FCC rules is very outdated and non-applicable. We don't serve that purpose anymore. But even if we did -- we could still be disbanded! It's been done before!
W9WHE points out the capabilities of Public Safety radio. Even here in a poor, rural county, we have centralized dispatch, but with alternate operating points, backup generators, multiple repeaters, and professionally trained operators. Plus there is not only the "public service" phone links but state owned and operated phone links, satellite communications, cell phones, APRS, mobile computer and fax capabilities, and personnel to use them all. Multiply that by many times for urban areas. And, no, you won't see a cop without a cell phone! (Though here in this county they are often out of range. But the radios aren't.)
The days of ham radio being the main line of emergency communication have long since passed. That isn't anyone's fault, and it has nothing to do with 'dumbing down,' or code/no-code, or spouse/cell phone repeaters. It has to do with technology. When we were the backbone of local and regional communications, those public safety departments had very limited commimications. They are WAY ahead of us today. And they should be; they are the professionals, paid to do the job, trained to do the job, and doing it every day. I pay taxes so they CAN be way ahead of us.
Our position as a national or international emergency communications organization has gone even further down the tubes. You can listen to the emergency HF nets for health and welfare traffic during earthquakes or hurricanes and what do you hear? A net control seeking traffic, but none comes. Or a net control saying "If you need to send traffic, go to the internet!"
I don't say we don't do some good. And I think we still have that 'first strike' capability in some cases, such as tornados. But we harm our cause by first, asking for credit, and secondly, asking that we be called professionals. We are volunteers, sometimes appreciated, sometimes not, sometimes of help, sometimes in the way.
The vast majority of hams never participate in any kind of emergency, or even public service (such as fund drives, etc) I read somewhere that the ARRL says only about 1700 hams participate annually in emergency communications. That's out of 650,000 licensed hams.
I believe our mandate to perform for the public is outdated, or more likely, nonexistent. I'm sorry to see it go, but that is, in my opinion, the reality of the world in which we live.
ed
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA9SVD on October 23, 2003
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
Mail this to a friend!
KG4GVQ writes:
"Also, while many folks have access to FRS and GMRS radios, these cannot compare to the capabilities of a 50+ watt
144mhz radio running through a repeater".
True, but if the P.S. repeater is down, why would the ham repeater be up?
-----------------------------------------------------
One possible scenario: (Obviously, from Earthquake country:)
If your town is near the epicenter of a major "seismic event," your own city, town, etc. systems might be knocked out. But an Amateur mobile MAY be able to still make contact through a repeater 50 or more miles away (Mountains DO help in such circumstances.) and communicate with others in a widespread area. And there might be a selection of repeaters to use that are distant enough to be operable, not a P.S. repeater in the middle of the stricken area.
(And don't laugh; it's more than just a scenario; it happened during our Northridge Earthquake.) Rare event? Fortunately, yes. But do we just give up and say "it probably won't happen?" Actually, it WILL happen. It's just that nobody knows when. It's akin to buying home insurance. If you are a careful person, and have smoke detectors in every room, do you need the insurance?
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by FJGH on October 23, 2003
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Hams could provide very important public services but they are too stupid, lazy, and arrogant to do so.
Hams want to use their radios to become instant heros to feed their egos. They really don't want to work at anything.
But there are some activities that could be of great value.
One example >>>>
A perfect job for old farts with nothing to do is to have hams sit in their vehicles for hours and hours at a time watching the borders and coastline (great lakes near Canada) for intruders. There never will be enough paid cops to do this work. Our borders are like a sieve with huge holes. If thousands of hams watched the boarders with their radios able to instantly contact a central point, there would be no more problems with illegal aliens trying to get legal drivers licenses which some think is no big deal.
If hams actually did something other than want to just talk on their radios (as if that was some big deal), hams might get some respect.
And yes, I use my cameras, night scope, and other optics for just what I proposed.
Try getting off eham for a while and DO something.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WB4M on October 23, 2003
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I was wondering how someone would drag the CW issue into this thread -- congratulations!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WB2WIK on October 23, 2003
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In an attack, I have so many possible defenses, bolstered considerably by my participation right here.
I could bore an attacker to death by talking about code-vs-no-code; if that didn't work, I could strangle him with a fan dipole.
Seriously, I think amateur radio is well recognized by the FCC, and we have at least one internal advocate there (in Riley Hollingsworth, who is an active ham himself) as well as considerable ongoing evangelizing by our representatives from the League.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE4MOB on October 23, 2003
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KE4PJW sed:
"I didn't know our spectrum was being used for private, two-way, short-distance voice communications for personal or business activities of the general public."
Ever heard the lower part of 10 meters? Or most repeaters around 5-ish in the afternoon?
Interestingly enough, while scanning the lower part of 10 meters looking for freebanders, I ended up on CB Channel 27 late one night. Apparently there's a group of CB'ers around here having foxhunts!!!
Imagine that!! CB'ers acting like hams, and hams acting like CB'ers. At any rate, sure beats the heck outta the same ol' "ailment of the day" or "does this radio sound better--or does this one??" discussion on the ham bands....
Back on topic...I wonder if REACT also has a "statement of affiliation" with the Citizen Corps?
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WB9UDJ on October 23, 2003
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Well friends, I have come to the conclusion that as long as we do not fail to pay our taxes the government does not care if we exist.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG6AMW on October 23, 2003
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How that go, "I stink therefore I am", yea we exist.
KG6AMW
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
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What really hurts hams in the eyes of the P.S. community are they guys with the orange vests, blue dash lights, badges and the multiple HTs blairing loudly. Oh yea, and failure to bathe doesn't help either!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 23, 2003
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<<<<A perfect job for old farts with nothing to do is to have hams sit in their vehicles for hours and hours at a time watching the borders and coastline (great lakes near Canada) for intruders. There never will be enough paid cops to do this work. Our borders are like a sieve with huge holes. If thousands of hams watched the boarders with their radios able to instantly contact a central point, there would be no more problems with illegal aliens trying to get legal drivers licenses which some think is no big deal.>>>
Do you have something against Canadians?
Let's turn the scenerio around, Perhaps we could send the old farts with nothing to do is to have hams sit in their vehicles for hours and hours at a time watching the borders and coastline (great lakes near United States) for intruders and illegals that are migrating up from the United States into Canada to obtain illegal passports which some think is no big deal.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
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WA9SVD explains why P.S. repeaters would be down, but ham repeaters up:
"If your town is near the epicenter of a major "seismic event," your own city, town, etc. systems might be knocked out. But an Amateur mobile MAY be able to still make contact through a repeater 50 or more miles away (Mountains DO help in such circumstances.) and communicate with others in a widespread area. And there might be a selection of repeaters to use that are distant enough to be operable, not a P.S. repeater in the middle of the stricken area.
Let's see, thats: 1 IF + 1 MAY + 2 MIGHTS = a "definite mabey".
Like said before, we need some relaity. Setting aside the IFs, MAYs and MIGHTS, in all likelyhood, if the P.S. machine is down, so will the ham machine.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
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"Do you have something against Canadians?"
You mean other than:
1) they let practically ANYBODY into their country with NO identification being necessary?
2) they have a 3,000 mile essentially unguarded boarder with the US wherein ANY of their undocumented entrants could get into the US?
Other than that, I love Canadians! I think we need to protect ourselves from the Canadian "we let anybody in" immigration policy. So heck yes, let's put some old farts on the boarder with a 2 meter radio!
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by FJGH on October 23, 2003
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to kc8vwm
There has been 1 car that was full of exposive making devices caught crossing the Canadien border on the west coast. There have been two groups of mid easterns crossing the Detroit river from Canada at 3am in small boats who have been identified as posssible terrorists with ties to Afgan..
The economy of California and border towns in Texas that are being economically destroyed by illegal aliens coming in from Mexico.
There are lawyers suing the states for not providing water stops along the way to illegal aliens who are dying trying to cross the boarders.
As far as I'm concerned Candiens and Mexicans are useless in controlling their boarders and you are a Canadien who doesn't even want to live in your own country. Why are you here? Do we have to employ Canadiens as well as all the Mexicans??????????
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K1WW on October 23, 2003
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My observation.
Fortunately for Amateur Radio and Homeland Security, 95% of the people posting on eHam are non-entities.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 23, 2003
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"Dear George,
My wife and I visited Ground Zero last summer to pay our respects. Frankly, it was too overpowering being at that holy place to even partially understand the horror of that day.
Tony, K6BBC"
Tony,
I do hope that you and your wife return to GZ in a few years when we have a grand new vibrant urban complex and memorial rising up for you to see.
We here in NYC have mouned and we will never forget. But it is also time to move onward and to create anew.
As someone scrawled in the dust on an office window downtown the week after the attack:
"The weak destroy; the strong build."
We are starting to build!
73,
George
KE2IV
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4RUL on October 23, 2003
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After reading this thread, you are left with two choices:
Amateur Radio is going to disappear - Sell the radio gear quick
OR
Amateur Radio will survive - Put up that new dipole and forget the naysayers
I vote for Door #2!
Dennis - KG4RUL
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N4CQR on October 23, 2003
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You did. And from what I am reading, it is one of the more intelligent posts.
Craig
"Someone has to inject some reality here."
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 23, 2003
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Forget FRS and GMRS being used for serious situations requiring long distance communications, satellite telephones are becoming more affordable and are already in some community's budgets.
73
Dave
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 23, 2003
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Dear AC7WL,
I have no desire to get into a tit for tat over horrors witnessed or experienced. I will certainly stand by what you quoted since all I said is that no one can know what I saw. You are not me, anymore than I am you. You were not me that morning and did not experience what I did at that particular time and place.
I believe that that is just about all I meant with what I said.
I can never share your experiences either for the same reason. I can empathize with what horror you may have gone through. But it can never be anything more than empathy.
Also, please bear in mind that the 2,600 killed that day were innocents. They were simple working women and men doing their everyday jobs. They were not in the military and did not expect to be in a combat zone.
While we all mourn the soldier who is killed in battle - we know that he or she understood the risks inherent in the position and agreed to undertake them anyway. Particularly since we have an all-volunteer military these days. Quite frankly, death goes with the job of soldiering.
That is a lot different from simply sitting at a desk on the 90th floor of an office building and suddenly being wiped out by a jet liner deliberately crashed into the building. It is also a hell of a lot different to have been a momentary survivor of that situation only to realize that your only remaining option is to choose how to die - either in the flames of burning jet fuel or by leaping out the jagged smashed facade of the building.
That, sir, is some of what I saw.
George,
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K4FAU on October 23, 2003
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You have got to be kidding --
yeah Hams played a role 50 years ago....
but on 911 -- there was over 13,500,000 digital quality phone calls in and out of the NYC area alone -- so many that cell towers were *almost* overloaded --
now what the hell could a couple of Elmers on HF have done to make this better????...
name me one time in the last 20 years that the telecommunications arena was down and only HF could get in and out -- !!!
Its a fricking hobby -- not the DoD or Homeland Defense -- hell -- i would feel better if the Boy Scouts showed up to help us instead of a couple of hams -- at least the Boy Scouts would do more then sit around and talk about how important they were to the national defense of this country as they ate all the donuts, and fill the room with B.O ...
God -- I get so tired of people trying to make this hobby into a self fullfilling prophecy of importance....
Brian
US Coast Guard
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N4KRA on October 23, 2003
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Someone asked if the PS repeater is down why would the ham repeater be up...Well we do have backup power. eg,
In 1987 the Palomar Mountain fire burned out the powerlines going up the mountain that powered the repeaters. The only repeater that remained on the air so we could use it up there had backup solar power charged batteries. That repeater remained on the air for the entire time we were up there. I was set up at the base of the observatory handling packet radio health and welfare messages for the firefighters, many who had not been home in months as they went from fire to fire....The shadows were busy on the air with the officials. A very busy repeater system,,,The hams had the alternative power,,,noting else did...
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N4CQR on October 23, 2003
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Agreed, Brian. I see it as; help if you are asked, otherwise get out of the way.
Craig
ps, thanks for your service to our country via the USCG.
God -- I get so tired of people trying to make this hobby into a self fullfilling prophecy of importance....
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC2HJN on October 23, 2003
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Why would you want to be part of the "Department of Homeland Security". The government sticks it's nose into way too much of our lives already. Do we really need our "wanna feel important" neighbors watching us also? Where is the line drawn? We have police, FBI, CIA, NSA, DoD, Coast Guard, Armed Forces, Secret Service, etc. etc. etc... If they can't get it done, what makes you think some busy body with an HT can? The 9-11 attacks were NOT an "intelligence failure". The intelligence goes back years that this was going to happen. They just didn't ACT on it. And no, I'm not some conspiracy theorist, just do the research before you flame me.
I don't need somebody watching me. If our gov't allowed Americans to defend themselves, 9-11 would never have happened.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE6I on October 23, 2003
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>Its a fricking hobby -- not the DoD or Homeland
>Defense -- hell -- i would feel better if the Boy
>Scouts showed up to help us instead of a couple of
>hams -- at least the Boy Scouts would do more then
>sit around and talk about how important they were to
>the national defense of this country as they ate all
>the donuts, and fill the room with B.O ...
That was... so harsh. :)
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W5HTW on October 23, 2003
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>Its a fricking hobby -- not the DoD or Homeland
>Defense -- hell -- i would feel better if the Boy
>Scouts showed up to help us instead of a couple of
>hams -- at least the Boy Scouts would do more then
>sit around and talk about how important they were to
>the national defense of this country as they ate all
>the donuts, and fill the room with B.O ...
That was... so harsh. :)
And so darned correct!!
Ed
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE6I on October 23, 2003
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The public service thing has always been a little bit thin. I always wondered, what exactly do those CW nets moving 'ham-o-grams' around the country have to do with public service? I joke with my 'ham radio civilian' friends that we're all preparing for the great 'ham radio emergency' to come when all the phones and internet and TV go out, and the only way to communicate is via ham radio. And maybe they wonder if I'm trying to be funny, or am I just insane.
Practically, I'd say that the ham radio people served the purpose of getting bodies, though maybe not all of them trim and fit, ahem, to show up for the emergency drills and stuff -- so maybe that's not saving the world, but it's something I guess. How's the saying go. The most important thing is showing up on time, and I have seen the ham clubs get people to show up for these things. Maybe that means something.
I hate to be too negative these days. Ham radio has a lot coming at it, and maybe if we add to that it'll just lose the will to live. Really, the bands are pretty quiet so anything that gets people to warm up the ethers a bit is a good thing.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W3DCG on October 23, 2003
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The ham repeater might be restored via generator power, or a replacement portable, it is possible.
It could be an IRLP repeater. This could provide excellent VHF communications to other distant hubs. VHF stations are practical requiring smaller antennas, easier to take down and put up. But maybe the phone lines are down, maybe only some of them. Whatever lines are up, the Telco system will be overloaded.
When all else fails, enter HF, /P, /M, and Base, coupled with a network of line of sight stations comprised of HT to mobile, to repeater relay traffic links. It's easy to imagine.
The old fashioned way.
The foundation for success should wide-spread disaster affecting local to regional to National communications is Field Day.
We'll be okay, we'll be able to communicate. The question is, will Amateurs be able to organize quickly enough to meet the demand?
Departmental Heads, even Presidents have been known to make statements that were poorly considered, sometimes even assenine. Have not we all. They are human too. Just because the Head says one thing does not always mean the Body will respond accordingly.
I have some faith that within the beauracracy of the FCC, Amateur radio is actually valued for the difficult to quantify, crucial resource that it truly is.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA9SVD on October 23, 2003
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by W9WHE on October 23, 2003
Mail this to a friend!
WA9SVD explains why P.S. repeaters would be down, but ham repeaters up:
"If your town is near the epicenter of a major "seismic event," your own city, town, etc. systems might be knocked out. But
an Amateur mobile MAY be able to still make contact through a repeater 50 or more miles away (Mountains DO help in
such circumstances.) and communicate with others in a widespread area. And there might be a selection of repeaters to use
that are distant enough to be operable, not a P.S. repeater in the middle of the stricken area.
Let's see, thats: 1 IF + 1 MAY + 2 MIGHTS = a "definite mabey".
Like said before, we need some relaity. Setting aside the IFs, MAYs and MIGHTS, in all likelyhood, if the P.S. machine is
down, so will the ham machine.
=======================================
No offense Jonathan, but you seem to have missed my point. In a situation where the P.S. repeater(s) are knocked out, agreed, local Amateur Repeaters will most likely also be knocked. But the Public Services operate on specific frequencies, and they can't just jump around to another repeater. Amateurs, on the other hand CAN find a distant (relatively speaking) repeater that IS working, even if it's located 50 or more miles away, which can be distant enough to not be as seriously affected and still operational.
All kinds of scenarios are possible. But don't discount the ability of Amateur Radio to provide emergency communications. We have flexibility that most Public Services do not enjoy.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA2JJH on October 23, 2003
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We exist, however we are falling off the FCC'S radar.
The communications act of 1934 states it all.
Hams gewt almost zero press. In the old days, more than 20 years ago, hams were considered a national comodity.
On TV news you would see a few stories a year about hams using their stations with phone patches to provide emergency commuications.
When the famous NYC marathon started hams got a big plug for providing much of the communication. Now we are chopped liver!
I live less than a mile uptown from WTC. A few my friends died. W2SJ-SK was a transmitter engineer I worked with, when I worked for WPIX.
During 9/11 I signed up to work at the emergency comm
HQ. I live 3 blocks away! I got a shift to work. The computer screwed up and people from out of town served first! When my shift came up at the red cross, they said we no longer need you! They are investigating!
I did my own thing with my radio's. We had a group of hams that helped people out. We found the Ham and commercial radio's usefull since much cell phone service was knocked out near ground zero.
People thought we were some type of agency. We tried to expain. Many people just needed a shoulder to cry on. We had many tear soaked shirts. We just helped people by helped people. Did what I was tought im EMT school. Provided P.F.A.=PSYCOLOGICAL FIRST AID.
THE FCC OWES US HAMS BIG TIME. WHY? Little known fact in history. A HAM named MAJOR ARMSTRONG invented superhetrodyne. He invented FM modulation and stereo!
This was a great tactical advantage. The allied forces could talk on their FM radio's in moving tsnks and vehicles. THE AXIS powers had to turn off the engines to use thier AM MODULATION. I guess ignition noise became well known afer WW-2!
We are in their eyes, but barely! FUNNY HOW MANY OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE AND ISS ASTRONUATS HAVE HAM TICKETS!
WHAT CAN YOU SAY?
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K9WQ on October 24, 2003
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Even if hams are no longer important to emergency communications (though I don't think that's true), and even if ham radio is only a hobby (I think it's more than that) there are still reasons why the FCC must protect hams' spectrum.
There's a lot of antigovernment sentiment here, but government has many important duties. One of those duties is to manage and preserve finite natural resources. The radio spectrum is such a finite natural resource.
The entire radio spectrum should not be available for exploitation for profit any more than the entire California coastline should be available for exploitation for profit. Should we dam all our rivers? Pave over all our land? Cut down all our forests? "Harvest" all our wildlife? Burn coal with abandon? Dump poisons in our oceans?
Who will protect these things if government won't?
What a sorry world we've have if the "market" always had its way.
There are many dangers inherent in the notion that "Government is the problem!" or the quasi-religious idea that the market always knows best.
Someone once compared the ham radio spectrum to a national park. That's it exactly.
It is government's responsibility to restrain the greed and shortsightedness of the market.
It is the FCC's responsibility to preserve a part of the radio spectrum for the use of the people.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N6AJR on October 24, 2003
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I would like to go one day here with out doom and gloom, debate, arguments and unrest. Any one out there still able to write an article on antennas or building an amplifier or a new way to make an e-h antenna look like it works...come on folks.. lets do ham radio, not this garbage.. any one want to learn how to build a fan dipole ???
tom N6AJR
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 24, 2003
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Start your own ham website Tom, N6AJR and you can have it just the way you want it. Did you think eHam started just for you? I'll bet your website wouldn't get as many hits in a year as eHam does in an hour. If you didn't notice, eHam is pretty non-bias and lets everyone talk about what they want to and letting everyone speak their minds. What's wrong with that?
Plus, I could never figure out why a person reads an article on something they say they're tired of seeing. There are hundreds of articles I skip over on eHam that are of no interest to me. Works good too for television and radio shows that you don't like either. No need to thank me for that helpful advice.
73
Dave
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 24, 2003
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When we have so many doomsayers on here touting how useless we have become,(ie: W9WHE, W5HTW, FJGH, other trolls etc.) we may as well just start selling our equipment now while prices are high, stop fighting BPL and just give up. For every viable reason we can come up with to at least partly justify our existence, you will always have nitwits as above always focusing on the negatives. I'll bet not one of these people has even ever offered to take part in emergency assistance exercises, let alone the real thing. When someone has such a negative attitude as is demonstrated in their previous posts, we shouldn't be suprised that we constantly see them on here slamming anything positive we may post. its probably the only way they can feel alive in their pathetic little worlds. 73.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by FJGH on October 24, 2003
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kd7efq
Its too bad there isn't a child version of eham for you. Everything about your posts points to a juvenile mentality that spans from verbal tantrums to kindergarten name calling. You keep telling everybody on eham what you are going to do if no code wins or BPL becomes reality. Please believe me, nobody cares what you are going to do because you don't like whats happening in your little world.
I hope mommie and daddie are still around for a long time in order to take care of you.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 24, 2003
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W3DCG writes:
"The ham repeater might be restored via generator power, or a replacement portable, it is possible.
It could be an IRLP repeater".
You might not be aware that almost every Police/fire/EMS repeater is configured with back-up power. In fact, a greater percentage of P.S. repeaters have sustainable back-up power then do ham repeaters.
=====================================================
WA2JJH writes:
"W3DCG writes:
THE FCC OWES US HAMS BIG TIME. WHY? Little known fact in history. A HAM named MAJOR ARMSTRONG invented superhetrodyne"
How does one man's investion translate into "US"? WE, did not invent FM, a "man" did. That man just happened to be a ham. And NO, the FCC does not owe us. We have a "privelege" to operate, not a right. Its a privelege which can be taken away.
=============================================
KD7EFQ criticizes those that assert a defferent point of veiw. Typical liberal. What I (and others) have taken the time to point out is that hams are not nearly as important to siociety as we once were. So many hams live in a dream world, believing that they are (or will be) society's savior. The undenyable fact is that our value to siociety is minimal, and dropping, because of advances in technology, which are within the grasp of everybody - no techical know-how required.
I GET SO TIRED OF PEOPLE EXAGERATING THE VALUE OF HAM RADIO TO SIOCIETY.
In the words of that imminent philosopher, Clint Eastwood, you ham radio heros are "a legend in your own minds".
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 24, 2003
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K9WQ writes:
"Someone once compared the ham radio spectrum to a national park. That's it exactly".
If that's true, then hams polute the spectrum. If the spectrum is like a national park, then we should leave the spectrum in its "pristine" natural state, instead of polluting it with the likes of "CQ contest, CQ contest....you are 5/9 Alabama".
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N3UPM on October 24, 2003
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Sorry, but I have to take exception to the points made that great strides have been made in redundancy and saturation for existing communications. I work in emergency communications every day, and just before break I was working on wireless issues. Whether wired or wireless, public telephone networks reach overload almost immediately in any type of disaster, whether through regular calls, emergency calls, or calling 911 to report that your power is out, and "do you know when it's going to be back on, because "Matlock" is on at 8:30?" Public Safety radio communications reaches saturation on some "normal" days, digital voice, trunking, and portable repeaters make no difference, or make the problem worse yet, through non-interoperablity. Ever seen a cop that wants to carry 5 different portable radios, a cell phone, and an FRS radio (because the new, swanky, 800 Meg digital encrypted trunked data-capable radios just plain don't work)?
Furthermore, 99.99995% of the public, Amateur Radio included, while having some idea of what to do to help themselves in an emergency, cannot/will not be able to provide any help to others, beyond keeping themselves from becoming additional casualties.
Even if the government doesn't appreciate us, or call us heroes (everyone's a hero, didn't you know?), or make Amateur Radio untouchable through legislation- so what? It still lies with each operator to put their best foot forward and PROVE that we can contribute to the solutions. As a friend once said, "More Paw, Less Jaw"- so let's get on the air and act like civilized, intelligent humans toward each other, and try to shine on our own merits.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by NA4IT on October 24, 2003
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I agree it seems as though Amateur Radio has been forgotten about. But here is something I was pondering...
What if the FCC had kept the Citizens Band Licensing Requirement in place? You know, the old one you had to pay for. And, what if it was law that if you sold one to someone without a license, it carried say a fine of $10,000 for each offense. And the same fine for unlicensed operation.
Switch to ham radio. What if it were a felony with a fine of $10,000 for each offense of selling a Amateur Radio Transmitter or Transciever (not recievers) to an unlicensed individual. Same thing for operating without a license.
I wonder how much difference that would have made not only in Amateur Radio, but also in CB...
Just something to think about.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 24, 2003
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Well Kevin, I don't know what you do or where you do it, but 99% of P.S. systems work reliably. That's a fact. The remaining 0.9% are in the process of being tweaked. 0.1% will have ongoing problems. You may have an axe to grind with some system. However, I would sooner rely on your **average** Motorola P.S. system then your **average** ham system ANY day!
P.S. entities all over the US are getting Federal grants to upgrade communications. They are adding redundantcy and capibillity. You may be the exception. Just because you see some system stuck in the dark ages does NOT mean the rest of the world is not moving forward.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 24, 2003
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KB3HQX writes:
"Ever seen a cop that wants to carry 5 different portable radios, a cell phone, and an FRS radio (because the new, swanky, 800 Meg digital encrypted trunked data-capable radios just plain don't work)"
No. And I doubt many other prople have either!
Sounds to me like a scanner dude miffed that the local P.S. people went digital and you can't monitor them with your cheap Ham radio!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by G5FSD on October 24, 2003
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> "Someone once compared the ham radio spectrum to a
> national park. That's it exactly".
Yep. We've got half the people who want to use the park already inside it, and the other half being kept out because the ones inside are saying "we had to learn how to plough a field using a carthorse, and so should you or you're not coming in". But it's public land, and those inside have no right to dictate to the others, unless they can prove they have good reason AND a democratic majority agree... and that's the only sensible way to govern things.
:o)
If people want to use the radio spectrum, and can demonstrate (by passing a written test) that they know the rules, and know enough not to cause a problem, there's absolutely NO reason not to let them... if they behave, and it's policed properly it will NOT degenerate into a CB type mess. Anyone who genuinely wants to join in should be welcomed, and nurtured. Heaven knows there aren't that many of them. Why turn them away?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WB2AZE on October 24, 2003
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In 1999 Hurricane Floyd hit parts of NJ with severe flooding. This flooding caused all cell phone use in the area, no matter what carrier to cease. Why, because the building that does the switching was under water!! Nothing worked, no land lines, no cell phones no internet access.
I remember reading about the only way a fire alarm was reported to the fire dept, was via a fire alarm box (telegraph system late 19th century technology) mounted on a telephone pole.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N3UPM on October 24, 2003
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Ahh, facts. Perhaps you should have actually READ what I wrote and tried to extract some meaning from it before "flaming out". Here are the "facts" you crave:
W9WHE wrote:
"99% of P.S. systems work reliably. That's a fact. The remaining 0.9% are in the process of being tweaked."
Yes, indeed most systems do work reliably, under normal traffic loads. However, not one of those systems is designed to handle 10 or more times its normal workload, which it would be facing in a real disaster. The costs would be too prohibitive. And then add in the factor of losing a tower or two, and you're indeed up the creek.
-- "P.S. entities all over the US are getting Federal grants to upgrade communications. They are adding redundantcy [sic] and capibillity. [sic] You may be the exception. Just because you see some system stuck in the dark ages does NOT mean the rest of the world is not moving forward."
Actually, they are not adding redundancy or capability. They are adding interoperablity, which is what the grants are for. A trunked system with 10 channels is no more redundant or capable than 10 discrete analog channels on 10 seperate radios, much less so, in fact.
Perhaps you should join APCO or NENA, or at least read some of the articles.
-- "I don't know what you do or where you do it"
I am a Data Analyst for a 911/Communications center serving a mostly rural 835-square-mile county. I am also the ARES EC for the county. Our radio systems work just dandy, and are all Motorola, as are my personal radios. I deal with anything connected to telephones, radios, or computers; which around here is just about everything. My duty and responsibility is to make sure that the people in my county have fast, reliable, and appropriate access to emergency services Thanks for the interest.
I also travel extensively-(Chicago, Virginia, South Carolina, Japan, and Canada within the last 12 months) and when I do I make it a point to study and learn about other systems.
-- "Sounds to me like a scanner dude miffed that the local P.S. people went digital and you can't monitor them with your cheap Ham radio!"
Sorry, but "scanner dude"? I monitor and administer the "P.S" radio system with real equipment- I use my "cheap" Ham radio to check into my district ARES net and talk to my buddies.
So please, if you need an ego boost, and absolutely cannot do it without making personal attacks, yell at your goldfish or something.
78.575% of statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB9MAC on October 24, 2003
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Well, I usually come on eHam to look for reviews, but just happened to have a "little" extra time on my hands today and noticed this thread. So, for a change of pace I read the entire listing. What a waste of time. If hams are spending the amount of time it takes to read all of these or even some of these posts, when are they spending time being a ham? In the time I spent reading this thread, I could have worked on checking my station for emergency operational ability, set up a battery array for portable power, or even taught lesson #1 to a prospective ham. In this wasted time I could have worked to better myself as a person, instead I chose to read the bickering of several hams that have a chip on their shoulders and a lack of respect for the hobby and our purpose to aid in support of the government at the local, state, and national levels. We are not a body that controls communications in the country if an emergency arises, we are a body that has the ability to use communications as a tool when our country needs us. I've done a fair amount of volunteer work in my few years as a ham, and have seen a lot of others that were willing to step up to the plate to do what it takes to help when and where needed. My elmer was in rough shape physically, but that man could run a net with utter simplicity that was second to none. He could barely walk, but when duty called, he answered in the best way he knew how. I'm still fairly young, at 26 years of age. I've already chased down more twisters than my dreams will let me forget. I've also helped out at parades, races, and community events. But when the time came that I needed to set down my radio and fill sandbags to keep the floodwaters of the Mississippi back, I did so without hesitation. We as hams need to realize that holding a mic in one hand and pointing with the other isn't always the best way to serve our country. Professional as defined by Webster - "participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs". The only thing seperating us from the "Professionals" is that we don't get paid. Set the mic down, walk away from the computer and change the image of amateur radio one good deed at a time.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA9SVD on October 24, 2003
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"Someone once compared the ham radio spectrum to a
> national park. That's it exactly".
===============================================
That's it exactly is right. Our spectrum is a national resource. But I see that in a different light. We are on our precious Ham Radio frequencies, and big business and other interests want to dig coal mines, cut down the trees, and put oil wells in the middle of our "national park."
IMHO, that's a bigger threat that having "more visitors" in the park.
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Tom N6AJR
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by G7HEU on October 24, 2003
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That takes the biscuit! Somebody taking a pop at Tom ' fan dipole ' N6AJR. From all that I've read on Eham.net Tom is helpful to other amateurs and a good example of what ham radio is all about, (even if he does go on a bit about his favourite antenna :-) )
Seems to me that many people on this board have no idea what ham radio is all about.
When you sad, angry, types are finished:
Cut and pasting each others text to make a purile point.
Getting hot under the collar about CW testing.
Pretending to be cops with your hand held radios.
And generally learning nothing,
GROW UP. Try to be an adult and if that's too difficult then sodd off out of ham radio - we'll do fine with out you thanks.
Steve
M0HEU / G7HEU
p.s. There is an e-mail address for me on this site so keep your boring 'blah blah' personal and send it direct.
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RE: Tom N6AJR
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by G7HEU on October 24, 2003
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Email:
Or if not on this site (sorry was angry)it's on QRZ.com under G7HEU.
All those people that like to try to screw up our wonderful hobby with personal attacks and vitriol:
UP YOURS SAD LOOSERS.
I for one have had enough of you and am off to play on HF.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AG1T on October 24, 2003
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Coming from a background in Fire and EMS with an active station that does use amateur radio as part of our communications, I have to say the Amateur does not or will not have a primary role in Home Land Security.
What we have found is that we can't find people dedicated enough in the amateur radio community to train to the level that is needed in the role that we need them to fill.
We have found that radio amateurs don't work good outside of "the box". If the job does not entail one radio and one task, amateurs are useless. We tried to use trained amateurs to work in a remote "dispatch setting" ( because of the mountainous region we are in ) with multipal radios and agencies. What we found is that it became to overwhelming for the "regular amateur" to handle.
So we have gone back to using regular firefighters/emts /emds to do the job. We have also gone to the expense of covering our region better with emergency powered repeaters on fire frequencies as well ( hence eliminateing the need to radio amateurs to get us out of the hole ).
Amateur Radio role, in my opinion, will always be health and welfare only. Never will they be called upon to take on a more major role. Not unless there are some big changes and people really start stepping up to the plate.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AC3P on October 24, 2003
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Just a few weeks ago the Mid-Atlantic States were hit by Hurricane Isabele. Here in Baltimore County we activated RACES for the Baltimore County Office of Emergency Preparedness and ARES for the the American Red Cross.
The RACES net provided a link between the Emergency Operations Center and the 4 shelters that were set up for the flood victims. The ARES Net provided communications support for the various Red Cross Offices in the region.
Now I don't pretend that the amateur radio operators came in as superheroes saving the day, but we did provide a needed service even though the telephone and cell phone infrastructure remained in tact.
I personally witnessed our usefulness when the cell phone batteries at one shelter died and Red Cross Communications continued via our 2 meter net.
No, we are not the end all and be all of communications, but we are the backup when the regular systems fail for whatever reason.
We have a role to play and at least here in the Baltimore area the local governments take advantage of what we have to offer.
73
Frank
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA2JJH on October 24, 2003
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NO, hams are not to be first responders. Our training is not even close to any M.O.S.
However during WTC hams were pressed into service for communications. HAMS did primary communicatiions between CLEALSA PAIRS, AND THE RED CROSS.
COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN st vincints hosptal and ground zero ham mobiles were used.
Too many other cases to mention. Cell service was knocked out for miles. The new NYFD 800MZ digital H-Ts did not work. Many repeaters for federal and local M.o.s. were located on WTX.
Hams played an important role. NO we could not replace all the RF INFRASTUCTURE FOR PUBLIC SAFTY. We would never pretend to.
The famous NYC MARATHON is coming up. From the marathons beginning around 1977, Hams voluntered there time and radio's.
IF all hams decided nOt to show up at the marathon...GOOD LUCK!
IMHO...A ham with be more likely to be a good samaritan.
Besides Hams made many electronic innovations.
Superhetrodyn, FM stereo, and many other RF apps used in todays consumer equiptment.
IN 1934 The FCC saw all this. However todays economy works by the GOLDEN RULE. YA GOT THE GOLD, YOU RULE!
I guess we are just a pest to the FCC. NO GOOD DEAD GOES UNPUNISHED!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC5NYJ on October 24, 2003
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1. Amateur radio ops could get a working, generator powered repeater network up and running from a rooftop in a fraction of the time a Public Service entity would take to do the same, should a tower fail/fall.
2. Amateur radio ops could get a phone patch to HF and back set up quicker than any Public Service entity.
3. Amateur radio ops could get a WiFi link to just about anywhere in a metro area set up quicker than any Public Service entity.
4. Amateur radio ops could put a visual surveillance net into operation at no cost to local government quicker than any Public Service entity.
You get my drift? We can do all this quicker because we already have the tools just lying in wait....
Do the Feds know this or care? I'm sure they do.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 24, 2003
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KB9MAC,
My goodness, it's not as if one needs to be a Chaucer here on eHam but, give me a break!
Your post would have been much easier to read if you had paid attention back there in English composition class.
Have you ever heard of a "paragraph" or, for that matter, a sentence.
I gave up after a half dozen lines of your "free verse". I guess it passes here on the web as much else does. But, how can you ever hope to convince anyone of your ideas if they cannot comprehend your thoughts?
At 26 years of age, it's probably too late for you. Perhaps you will teach your children to learn how to read and write coherently?
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC5NYJ on October 24, 2003
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Furthermore, in my estimation, considering the type of disasters most likely envisioned by Homeland Security, that being incidents occurring in or affecting heavily populated metro areas, VHF and above operators would be more prepared to offer the type of short range portable voice, video and data communications that would be needed, as opposed to stringing up 80m dipoles between buildings to send broadcast quality SSB or 80wpm CW five or six miles to the nearest Red Cross shack.
I'm not sure Homeland Security is really worried about a multiple nuclear strike on major cities at this point, but more of a localized, or regional threat.
Just a thought.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 24, 2003
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KC5NYJ,
Yeah, right.
And Amateurs will do all of these things wonderful things right after they get done settling the Code vs. No-Code disagreement between them!
:)
73,
George
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB9MAC on October 24, 2003
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KE2IV,
I'm sorry to hear that all is lost for you. It seems that the only thing you have time for is to criticize people on their composition skills and complain about nearly everything.
Surely there must be something that you have a positive outlook on. Maybe you should hurry and scan all the other posts for grammatical errors. I'm sure there must me some typographical errors as well that need to be corrected.
Take just five minutes out of your busy day of being a sourpuss and walk away from the computer. Breathe in some clean air. Take the time to smell the flowers. If you keep up this sour attitude, you'll surely give yourself hypertension or a coronary.
I've come to learn that some people just need stress and conflict in their lives. These people need to seek counseling and quite possible need medication.
Enjoy Life!!!
Complain Less!!!
Kent Vanderploeg
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 24, 2003
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To FJGH: I guess you didn't take the advice I gave about seriously getting some counseling and taking some medication to control your insane outbursts. I would say I pity you fro sufering your mental delusions, however I only am able to pity those who are at least willing to help themselves which you apparently are not. I'm just glad I don't have to live inside the chaos in your head. Get some professional help. You certainly need it.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 24, 2003
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To FJGH:
Apparently I am one He** of alot more mature than you'll ever be. I am at least not afraid to post my callsign on here while you hide behind your alias. If it's anyone who has the baby mentality on here, It's YOU! You have already admitted your sickness by saying what a thrill it gives you to see how many people you can Pi** off by using an alias. You really do have a sick mind.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 24, 2003
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To FJGH:
Apparently I am one He** of alot more mature than you'll ever be. I am at least not afraid to post my callsign on here while you hide behind your alias. If it's anyone who has the baby mentality on here, It's YOU! You have already admitted your sickness by saying what a thrill it gives you to see how many people you can Pi** off by using an alias. You really do have a sick mind.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC0LPV on October 24, 2003
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>Let's see, thats: 1 IF + 1 MAY + 2 MIGHTS = a "definite mabey".
>
>Like said before, we need some relaity. Setting aside the IFs, MAYs and MIGHTS, in all likelyhood, if the P.S. machine is down, so will the
>ham machine.
I don't know about how other communities do it, but here in Emporia KS we have our main club repeater system located on a tower about 15 miles outside of town. I believe it has generator backup power.
The public service repeaters are ALL in city limits--virtually all of them located near the police/fire main station.
One tornado could take out either our tower, or the city antennas, but it is unlikely that the same storm could take out both. If it did, we still have hams with cross-band repeating mobile radios who could go to the high points in town to provide repeater service.
Ten minutes in one of the hardware stores, and I have a copper pipe J-pole antenna to put up somewhere handy...home brew skills are still important as backup for emergency communication.
Jim
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC0LPV on October 24, 2003
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By the way, people's confidence in regular telephone networks can be tested in one simple way.
Try to make a few extra long distance phone calls on Mother's day.
/That/ is the quality of our public infrastructure.
Jim
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 24, 2003
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Let's Face it. The human race has peaked and we are now well on the way of DE-volution. Once was a time that if something became obsolete, it was replaced by something much better, faster, more reliable etc. All one has to do is open their eyes and look around today and you will see that is NOT the case today.
We put men on the moon, and should have had a manned mission on Mars by now, But Nooo... some greedy congressperson whined we were spending too much money. Yet they vote themselves a raise every chance they get.
They have just grounded the Concorde, saying it was too costly and old. Yet, there are no plans to replace it with something better, faster and cheaper, as is the buzz phrase today.
I'm not going into the code/no code thing, but it falls along the same lines. Have we lost our desire to improve ourselves and better ourselves. One good read on E-ham nowdays and the answer is a clear YES.
No wonder many of our children find it more important to get the coolest tatoo, or pierce as many parts of their bodies rather than to study science or math, and end up pushing picture buttons at McDonalds and not knowing how to count change back from a sale, while listening to angry, violent cRAP music. One shouldn't be surprised after seeing how ADULTS behave on here.
Certainly, we need to be concerned with Weather and Terrorist based disasters, But we are ignoring the biggest disaster of all, The self inflicted degeneration and self-destruction of the human race.
Amateur Radio will probably be destroyed by greedy, profit-motive interests such as BPL etc. One less healthy activity to offer our young people. Maybe a Tatoo of a Hallicrafters will be fashionable someday.
As for myself, I will no longer waste my time with replies to Topics on here or elsewhere, as I prefer to be a part of the solution, rather than the problem. 73 to all.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 25, 2003
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"Let's Face it. The human race has peaked and we are now well on the way of DE-volution. Once was a time that if something became obsolete, it was replaced by something much better, faster, more reliable etc. All one has to do is open their eyes and look around today and you will see that is NOT the case today.
We put men on the moon, and should have had a manned mission on Mars by now, But Nooo... some greedy congressperson whined we were spending too much money. Yet they vote themselves a raise every chance they get.
They have just grounded the Concorde, saying it was too costly and old. Yet, there are no plans to replace it with something better, faster and cheaper, as is the buzz phrase today."
---------------------
Oh, oh.
We have ourselves a pessimist here.
Now we could discuss the enormous strides in medicine and genetics, plus bio-engineering etc. Or even, this being the Web, consider the growth of digital technolgy as an example of moving forward.
And remember when there weren't such things as MRI's or CAT scans?
Not really that long ago, actually.
Not to mention the fact that there is a presently a virtual "flotilla" of exploratory spacecraft approaching Mars due to converge there in January/February 2004.
And I guess our pessimist would tell us we should ignore that the a third spacefaring nation has emerged just last week (er...yes, that's China - wake up, baby, check the label on the latest TV you just bought!).
Well KD7EJQ, the world may be coming to an end for you. But I figure, so long as folks is still procreating, things are looking up!
BTW: I am "old man" now past 50 years of age. How old are you?
73,
George
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K6BBC on October 25, 2003
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George,
I think you are getting stressed out tonight. Relax. It's Friday. Put on some Neil Young (the quiet Niel Young) . It will all be here tomorrow.
Tony
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 25, 2003
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KE2IV:
I'm not that far behind you at 42. To Me, Robots instead of men doing space exploration are a Cop-Out. Sure, The Preliminary stuff needs unmanned probes, but there is a movement to stop manned spaceflight altogether in exchange for unmanned probes. The real challenge is in man being able to live & work in the hostile environment of space. Ultimately, if we don't self destruct first, we will outgrow this planet and need to live elsewhere.
Seondly, the advances in Genetics, Medicine, and Digital Technology is only good if you have a consumer base that can afford it. With more people being born, and less jobs being available due to automation or sending jobs out of the U.S. as is prevalent today, who will have the income levels to afford it? More people go without Insurance than ever before due to exhorbitant rates. Medical costs are skyrocketing beyond reason. Digital may be affordable for the home user, if they can afford a computer. Real Jobs are being replaced or sold out overseas (I refuse to use the "Politically Correct" term - outsourced) and low wage temporary jobs are becoming the norm (Slave Labor) even in white collar circles now. Either this country had better wake up and start taking care of it's own, or the next Bestseller book you will see #1 on the NYT Best seller list will be titled " The Late, Great United States." Yes I am Pessimistic, and have good hard evidence to back it up. I wasn't going to reply anymore to these posts, but you were at least somewhat civil with your response. 73, and I am done with replies from now on.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KZ9G on October 25, 2003
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Ladies and Gents,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Our Nation and it's values are at a crossroads right now." Our traditional values, both family oriented and spiritual, are under attack. These are the same values that have served to form our Great Nation from it's noble and humble beginnings, and brought us to this point. Please just remember to keep the faith, whatever that may be, and preserve our "pro family" values. If we become lazy and compromise these values, we will fall apart. Just review the Roman Empire’s history if you don’t believe me. Don’t give up!
The fiber of our American culture is being attacked, and this obviously includes the subset of our society that revolves around amateur radio. I believe we are all hearing and reading about private interests' continually pressuring the FCC for coveted bandwidth. Given the advances in radio and digital technology, we are also seeing more and more pressure from fellow radio enthusiasts to gain greater access to our bands. IMHO, these issues need to be addressed through our undying support of organizations advocating amateur radio, as well as our own written and oral communications to those organizations and government officials who can affect our hobby's future. Whatever your opinions happen to be, please communicate them to those officials that can help us. What else can we do? We could continue to complain and bicker here. However, that won't get us anywhere.
As for me, (God willing) I'll be accepting a recently offered position in Anchorage doing what I love - serving my country's federal, State, and local agencies by supporting their radio communications planning and evaluation efforts. Fortunately, the State of Alaska is a beacon of hope and light for the rest of the Nation concerning intergovernmental agency cooperation and resource pooling. The fine and wise officials up there are creating a Statewide, Project 25 compliant, VHF radio system that will be utilized by federal, State, and local public safety agencies. If you would like to read more about this unprecedented communications system, please visit the following URL links:
http://www.state.ak.us/local/03092302.htm
http://www.apco911.org/frequency/siec/documents/documents/alaska_000.pdf
http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2003/db0807/DA-03-2612A1.pdf
Keep the faith, and please take an active role in the issues that are important to you, especially concerning ham radio and technology. More importantly, stand up for what you believe, confidently providing the moral direction so desperately sought after by today's youth.
Long live ham radio! I am thankful for the network of friends I’ve made through this great vocation. I am also thankful for their guidance, as they have helped shape my telecommunications career around the world. I must also say, good jobs are STILL available!
73.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W3DCG on October 25, 2003
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What follows here cut directly from a post by W9WHE:
>>by W9WHE on October 24, 2003
W3DCG writes:
"The ham repeater might be restored via generator power, or a replacement portable, it is possible.
It could be an IRLP repeater".<<
Yes, I did write that, this is w3dcg.
Next, W9WHE completely misquotes and botches the next part:
>>"WA2JJH writes:
"W3DCG writes:
THE FCC OWES US HAMS BIG TIME. WHY? Little known fact in history. A HAM named MAJOR ARMSTRONG invented superhetrodyne" <<
I never said anything of the kind, and I take offense at my call being tacked onto something I did not think nor write.
If you are going to quote people, fine- but don't MISQUOTE them.
This cyberspace is a Cut-and Paste friendly medium, so how can you botch that so well. Shoot from the hip, fine, I generally proof read before I post, at least somewhat, even when shooting from the hip, even when I've merely Cut-and-Pasted.
Next, you state:
>>You might not be aware that almost every Police/fire/EMS repeater is configured with back-up power. In fact, a greater percentage of P.S. repeaters have sustainable back-up power then do ham repeaters.<<
How do you wish I'd respond to that? Say you're wrong or I doubt it? Well, my response is, I should hope citizens tax dollars are being spent such that government communications links have back-up redundancy. Of course they should be configured with backup.
I wonder how many of those that maintain and installed such systems are hams too?
In the final analysis, I wonder, what is your point? That the Service of Amateur radio serves no useful purpose? Are you saying that the Amateur service lacks the capacity as a whole, to mobilize and establish emergency communications links, or that we should have no backup Service to support the Government Services should they fail on whatever levels they might?
In today's modern world, I do not think of the Amateur service as the front-line, foremost important, END-ALL-BE-ALL communications link. I do not believe that the Amateur service ever was inteded to serve such a purpose. My view has been, that it was always a stand-by service, designed to work with and augment Local, State, and Federal authorities in any capacity deemed helpful. Sure the hams may be just standing by. Standing By. Stand-By.
Are you saying that Police/Fire/EMS are infallable? Sure they have backup systems, are those infallable? Do all public services with such systems routinely check their backup systems? After all, redundancy is always on the side and easily forgotten- that is- until Primary fails and Backup must take over.
Or does Government have all bases covered so much there would be no gaps that skilled radio Amateurs might fill when the need arises? I do not pretend to be one highly skilled technical person, while I do know of several highly skilled technical people who are hams, and should an important piece of Police/Fire/EMS/Armed Forces communications piece of gear fail, chances are there is a ham somewhere who might have a greater probability of either fixing it or coming up with a replacement solution than the average citizen. I know of tons of hams who have all manner of test equipment, extra radios, and the know how to use them all effectively, in their houses.
I am saying, that when all else fails, chances are- Amateur radio will be there, with amateur systems up and operational.
Technology surely has changed many aspects of life, not only within the world of Amateur radio. Computers have changed the world. Yes.
But what is wrong with promoting the study of electronics, and radio communications skills? Ham radio is more than just 2m, HF, Contesting, DXing, mindless blabbering on 75m, Code or No. Amateur radio encompasses all of wireless communications. From Radio Control models to Space communications. And especially, computer to radio interfacing.
To say that Amateur radio serves no purpose other than hobby... it is the hobby aspect from which a well spring of innovation rises. At the very least, it places radio gear, at zero tax payer expense, in the hands of many people because it is a hobby.
Big base radios, and small, extremely portable little radios that cover 160m-70cm, transmit and receive, in a tidy little self-contained (except HF antennas) TOTABLE package. I'm sure that-
Police/Fire/EMS have all manner of radios with such versatility, don't they?
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA2JJH on October 25, 2003
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W9HWE,I usully find what you have to say to be ""on the money"". However Superhet was just only one example of a HAM pushing the envelope on communications art. ARMSTRONG INVENTED FM STEREO TOO.
Collins used to make only mil. systems. Collins was a ham. The mechanical filter is still offered on NEW RADIO'S as an option
The communications act of 1934 is what I go by.
I guess MARCONI was a freebander! In WW-2 superhet FM was a major tactical advantage the allied forces had.
This allowed mil. FM mobile operation.
This should say something about the hobby, no?
Do you hear of HAM RADIO bankrobbers or murderers.
HAMS for the most part are more law abiding than the average joe.
Too many advances in communications were made by HAMS first! Hams designed many RF cicuitry.
Maybe that says something about the Hobby!
Many of the repeaters for federal and other M.O.S. were on top of WTX! Much of the M.O.S. comm systems had major problems as a result. Years ago I had to do work on WTX(the roof with all the antenna's). One would see about 400 5/8 wave station master antennas.
There were stickers on these antenna's about being property of the U.S. GVT. I did not want to know which agency!
The average person just used to see the huge broadcast antenna. There were about 400 station master antenna's for several federal agencies on that roof too!
The access to ham repeaters were a huge help! High power mobiles were used for emergency traffic. Much emergency traffic was passed by HAMS! Should all the HAMS stayed home and played pocket billards instead!
Yes, I know other states have their act together. with M.O.S. RF infrastructure. CA. is the best with HF and fiber optic back op.The WTX debacle showed M.O.S.
deficiencies in their RF infrastructure.
HAMS play a major roll in the NYC marathon. Should all hams boycott the MARATHON, and over tax the police!
I agree with KE2IV. We are going down hill. There is a manned missiom to MARS in 2019 however.
I do know what W9WHE is annoyed by, and I agree!
Some ultra dorkey space cadet hams think they have some type of M.O.S. authority. They just like the power trip. They, if anything get in the way of people with special training.
I do not want to get into a tread war with you.I respect your other thread opinions.
Lets just say we agree to disagree.
73 and respects MIKE
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by N0MLR on October 25, 2003
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I have a recent example of how hardened the Public Service radio system is in our area. Back in the summer the Motorola shop I worked for had just fired the Tower Managment Company that had been leasing the tower space. Well the company had contacted the power company for a disconect of the power since it was no longer responsible for the sight. All of a sudden I started getting calls from the 911 center the EMS and Fire departments and the local business people who rented repeater use. All said they had no comunications.
I left the shop to go see what was wrong. I didnt know at the time the power company had just pulled the meter. I was thinking more along the lines of a Fire or maybe a Tower had fell since everyone was without comunications including our shop since we were on repeaters based at that site. Imagine my surprise when I discovered no power and no BACKUP Generator or Batteries. I had only worked for the company for 8 months and was the Bench Tech at the shop. I was the only one that seamed to be working that day since the other Techs were nowhere to be found. Well to make a long story short Don't rely on your local Police in a major emergency they may not be as in control as they think!
Greg Dunn / N0MLR
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 25, 2003
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As KD7EFQ wrote:
>>Let's Face it. The human race has peaked and we are now well on the way of DE-volution.<<
The statement is already comming to life as the last concord flight was this week. The flight industry never advanced beyond that and now the flight industry is back to where they were 35 years ago as far as flight speed.
But hey, now we're taking people's fingernail clippers away to make flying safer right?
73
Dave
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K4III on October 25, 2003
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Check for the words "React" and "CB" and "GMRS"...
That's what we are to the FCC...
Just another free-band user with the hassle of licensing and renewals. Real exciting!
Another reason for simplification of requirements/testing/license renewals...
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W3DCG on October 25, 2003
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Yeah... where I work we provide pagers for a local area, that is correct, old fashioned beepers.
However, it remains an often critical Life and Death link (98% of those carrying these beepers happen to all be physicians encompassing most every specialty- but the actual Life and Death part applies mostly to Cardiac Surgeons, Cardiologists, Surgeons, OB-GYNs, although many other kinds of physicians may have a patient that takes a turn for the worse at any time).
Come to think of it, it seems there are many physicians who happen to be hams.
Anyway,
Tower sites where we have transmitters have backup generator power. Amateur repeaters appear at some of these sites. If the backup power works as it should, most site leasee's will have uninterrupted service, including the hams.
If not, then, well, there won't be any power.
Regardless, if there was a widespread outtage, not necessarily due to only the loss of power, use your imagination- there are many around who can come out of the woodwork with their mobile based rigs which have HF-UHF full coverage, multi-mode capability. Stand alone Contest Stations which may or may not have full generator capability can be pressed into service if need be. I would not be at all surprised if on HF, coast to coast and in between, "Amateur" stations of a Contesting genre did not posses the loudest, clearest, cleanest signals on the air, and in the greatest numbers.
You know, even the guy or gal who just uses their mobil rig to chat to and from work, or once a year as a Rover for one QSO party, is one more non-criminal, law-abiding citizen, having at their disposal an awesome communications capability that depends on nothing except propagation, and gas to run the car/truck.
Not because they are paid to have it.
Rather, because it is their hobby.
They do it for fun, not money.
Considering the investment many hams make in their gear, time spent using their gear, and especially considering the non-pecuniary interest mandated by law, I think it rather comforting to have these sort of tinkers/communicators/even appliance operators in our communities throughout the country.
The depth of knowledge that radio Amateurs possess as a group, combined with the wide range of equipment they own and operate for fun at their own expense, in my humble opinion, is a resource that should not be so flippantly disregarded.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by FJGH on October 25, 2003
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kd7efq
In this thread, you have exhibited 4 distinct child-like personalities. Are you schizoid?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 25, 2003
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Can we get a reality check?
The Concorde was not progress. It was a noisy, fuel inefficient way of sending over-paid executives and celebrities on an uncomfortable flight across the Atlantic.
$12,000 per R/T folks.
It failed the test of the marketplace!
This doesn't mean that supersonic technology has not advanced tremendously in the past 30 years - just ask the top gunners in the USAF et. al.
Oh, and BTW, the people who live around JFK Airport were cheering yesterday at the last flight of that thing. It's been a blight on their community for 30 years. Or perhaps they just don't matter, right?
As to space flight. I'm all for discovery. However, I am wise enough to know that it is not a singular focus of society. There are competing needs and there is only so much money to go around (particularly in this tax-averse society).
Also, perhaps the doomsters should wake up to the fact that their fantasies about space travel are the stuff of Hollywood movie lots - not technology which grows step-by-step. Too often, real expectations have been built around Buck Rogers fantasies generated by Hollywood and it's great ability to use special effects!
And as to the use of robotic spacecraft. Since more flights to Mars (2/3) have resulted in catastrophic failure rather than success, don't you think it just a little bit intelligent to get things right with robots before we risk human lives?
73,
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 25, 2003
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"George,
I think you are getting stressed out tonight. Relax. It's Friday. Put on some Neil Young (the quiet Niel Young) . It will all be here tomorrow.
Tony"
K6BBC,
BTW: Got your check today. Goes in the bank on Monday. Your donation to BPL fund follows shortly thereafter (5 biz days to clear from CA to NY).
Now if I can just get you to join the ARRL. It needs folks like us.
73,
George
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 26, 2003
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KE2IV, I was strictly speaking of the commercial airlines, not military or other experimental aircraft and you are probably the only individual that couldn't grasp that. Of course the concord was despised by the intolerant class envy types, as I observed in your statement about rich people overindulging themselves. There are some people who think we should still be using wagons pulled by horses, ships with sails and using the bathroom outside again.
Myself, I welcome the new technologies and I think that if people deserve to benefit from them. Why shouldn't I drive my SUV with the air conditioner on full blast? I work hard for my money and I believe I deserve to choose how I like to spend it Freedom of choice and speech seems like it's despised unless you agree with others opinions or agendas.
73
Dave
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7EFQ on October 26, 2003
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FJGH
If you are such an expert on child Psychology, You really need to apply your skills most when you look in the mirror in the morning. And please do something about your chronic mental diarrhea problem. I'm sure I'm not the only one growing tired of your senseless exhibitions of insecurity on here. Really, you need to exercise your keyboarding 101 elsewhere as you never contribute anything meaningful to these threads, and I grow tired of having to filter thru your feces on my way to reading something with substance and real meaning. :(
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by FJGH on October 26, 2003
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kd7efq
If you are as mentally handicaped as you sound, you need to talk to your provider about your behavior. Failure to control anger with other mental disabilities like schizophenia present can be a dangerous combination.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W5HTW on October 26, 2003
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KE2IV, Probably there is a new division in the human race. It is said that evolution was a division, and some of us became humans and some of us became apes. Today there is that new division. Some of us are growing intellectually, advancing science. Some of us are moving in the opposite direction and the proof is in front of us. Just for one tiny example, of many many thousands: A man takes an axe to his wife, hits her in the head several times, then dumps her in a frozen residential street to be found by a passing motorist. She survives, after many surgeries. The man has no remorse.
That isn't human behavior. That is subhuman. Any one of us can cite similar - or worse - incidents in which we see proof a faction of what we often call the human race is indeed returning to its roots of total violence with no remorse and no consideration. Pre-history; animal level instincts. At some point in the not-too-distant future, society will have to draw a line in the intellectual and emotional sand. If your behavior falls below that line, you can be declared non-human and exterminated immediately, the same way we exterminate rabid dogs.
Yes, portions of society are indeed de-evolving. But portions are advancing, and the gap is becoming wider between the two. More and more we see no one is standing in that gap. Like the amoeba, we are dividing.
Carrying this to ham radio, we are a part of this breakup, this division of civilization. We see hams that have no sense of decency, no concern over rights no caring, no concerns. "Do your own thing." We are seeing the creation of two (or more) ham radios, one of them of people who still have respect for other humans, and the other with no respect for anyone. The more that second group goes, the less respect we all will command in the eyes of government agencies that regulate us.
Just as the government gave up on CB radio, they will be forced to give up on us, despite the fact there are a large number of good hams in our group. (Just as there is an urban legend about that there are good CBers in that group!) But the tree full of mostly rotten apples will be cut down, and the good apples will fall as well. The FCC will not attempt to rectify the situation by weeding out the bad. They have nearly given up on that now, as we all know. What efforts they make are more tokens, in response to large numbers of complaints.
If we become the bad boys like CB, another thorn in the butt of the FCC, we are a different animal, for we have far more frequencies, and we are alloted far more power and more modes. In other words, a rampant and unregulated ham radio can do far more international harm to communications as well as to good will, than the CBers can. We therefore become a bigger threat to the well-being of other agencies, as well as to the FCC itself.
It is well past time to straighten our act and see if we can earn some respect. It may be too late. The problem is, writing about it here will not make improvements. We can discuss it, but the solution remains out of reach. We ham are a part of human - and perhaps subhuman - culture! De-evolution will take us out of the picture.
Ed
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 26, 2003
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"KE2IV, I was strictly speaking of the commercial airlines, not military or other experimental aircraft and you are probably the only individual that couldn't grasp that. Of course the concord was despised by the intolerant class envy types, as I observed in your statement about rich people overindulging themselves. There are some people who think we should still be using wagons pulled by horses, ships with sails and using the bathroom outside again.
Myself, I welcome the new technologies and I think that if people deserve to benefit from them. Why shouldn't I drive my SUV with the air conditioner on full blast? I work hard for my money and I believe I deserve to choose how I like to spend it Freedom of choice and speech seems like it's despised unless you agree with others opinions or agendas.
73
Dave"
Dave,
Why did you conveniently ignore the fact that I noted that the Concorde failed the test of the marketplace?
British Airways and Air France ran everyone of those flights at a loss despite the $12,000 r/t ticket price. Effectively, regular fliers on those airlines were subsidizing an exclusive service and it finally became an issue of bottom line over prestige. BA is fully privatized and AF is mainly so. The shareholders got tired of seeing red ink - simple as that.
And I have no doubt that you do drive your SUV with the A/C running at full blast, it is rather common these days. I, in my BMW, prefer to zip around you folks in your bloated, top heavy gas guzzlers. It's always fun to watch you folks hit the brakes when you try to chase me through a tight turn and start to wobble! :)
Further, efficiency is the measure of technological progress. Think about how much less electricity PC's "burn" today despite the fact that they are umpteen times more efficient and powerful than their predecessors.
You may equate gluttony with progress - but not all of us do.
And, BTW, exactly how many times did you fly the Concorde? Or what it a flight of fancy in your dreams?
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 26, 2003
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"Probably there is a new division in the human race. It is said that evolution was a division, and some of us became humans and some of us became apes. Today there is that new division. Some of us are growing intellectually, advancing science. Some of us are moving in the opposite direction and the proof is in front of us....
" At some point in the not-too-distant future, society will have to draw a line in the intellectual and emotional sand. If your behavior falls below that line, you can be declared non-human and exterminated immediately, the same way we exterminate rabid dogs...."
W5HTW,
This is the kind of hateful filth that the Nazi's preached in Germany in the 1920's and 1930's. The term they used was "untermensch". Go look it up.
Exactly who is going to declare some of us "non-human"? You!? And when, sir, do you propose to begin this Final Solution?
You are beyond the edge. You are not the solution, you are the problem!
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AE6IP on October 26, 2003
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KC5NYJ
> 1. Amateur radio ops could get a working, generator powered repeater
> network up and running from a rooftop in a fraction of the time a
> Public Service entity would take to do the same, should a tower
> fail/fall.
You and I definitely live in a different country. In my town, the
ARES repeater has been flakey for months. On the other hand, the
County OES can set up a *complete* communications center in a trailer
in *7* minutes from when they arrive on scene.
> 2. Amateur radio ops could get a phone patch to HF and back set up
> quicker than any Public Service entity.
See above.
> 3. Amateur radio ops could get a WiFi link to just about anywhere in a
> metro area set up quicker than any Public Service entity.
I don't think WiFi means what you think it means. But otherwise, see
above.
> 4. Amateur radio ops could put a visual surveillance net into
> operation at no cost to local government quicker than any Public
> Service entity.
"visual surveillance net"? Have we, perhaps, watched one too many spy
films?
> You get my drift? We can do all this quicker because we already have
> the tools just lying in wait....
You don't, by any chance, have a blue light on your dashboard, do you?
> Do the Feds know this or care? I'm sure they do.
No federal, state, or local emergency service organization *relies* on
volunteers of any sort for anything.
However, when they do incorporate volunteers into their emergency
planning, they *prefer* volunteers who are willing to take
instruction, and who have been well trained in more than one aspect of
emergency services.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AE6IP on October 26, 2003
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> Can we get a reality check?
coming right up.
> This doesn't mean that supersonic technology has not advanced
> tremendously in the past 30 years - just ask the top gunners in the
> USAF et. al.
Kelly Johnson, may he rest in peace, would certainly dispute such a
claim if any of the "top gunners" were to make it. Supersonic
technology hit its peak in the early 60s.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KD7JNY on October 27, 2003
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Well I understand your POV, I thought I'd take your points one by one and make my observations.
>1) With the advent of multiple independant cell >networks and tri-mode phones, the odds that >wirelines, Verizon, AT&T, & Cingular networks would >ALL be down simulatineously for a significant period >is quite remote. Have you ever seen a cop without a >cellphone?;
Actually the odds are not that small. In an emergency situation many people panic and overload the Cell system with calls that it can not handle. Also if disaster takes out enough cell towers the cell network is worthless in those area where you really need them.
>2) Public safety communications systems are being >hardened by and adding redundancy and back-up power; >Talk-around channels (Simplex for when the repeater >goes down) are ubiquitious. Multiple reciever sites >with overlapping coverage are being installed within >larger P.S. repeater networks. P.S. people are not >as "helpless" or technically "incompetent" as some >would have you think.
I wouldn't say they are helpless, but at least in the Greater Phoenix area, its all a matter of budget. The Phx PD have been attempting to get a new radio system for many years as thier current one has many problems with it. Phoenix and the surrounding cities just don't want to spend the funds at this time.
>3) Sales of self contained suitcase repeaters using a >cigarette lighter for power and a mag mount antenna >are up. These can be set up by any cop or fireman >that can plug in a cigarette lighter cord, place a >mag mount antenna on the roof of a car, and flip a >switch. Trust me here, they don't need us for this.
This is true and AZ and many other states are trying to do this with special vehicles that allow interagency communctions, which are big problem in this state, and one of the areas which HAMs actually help with. I don't think there has been a disaster in this state that HAMs were told to go home, mostly they been a sort of first in and last out scenario.
>4) As for the public at large, between FRS, GMRS, & >CB, a HUGE section of the population already has >communications capibillity which rivals your 2 meter >HT!
I'd have to say yes and no. FRS has limited range but does have a place. GMRS has repeater channels, but I'm not sure if I know of any active in my area (I'm sure there are I just don't hear any active).GMRS also requires a license, something that many people don't know who actually buy them (Yes I have a GMRS license). CB has it own issues of course and none of the Emergency Comm teams in our area use it at all.
>Therefore, the odds that Ham radio would be the "only >means of communications" for any significant period >is unlikely, except for the "doomsday sinereo". And >let's face it, under a doomsday sinereo, >communications will be a low priority compaired to >breathing uncontaminated air!
I don't think I every thought Ham Radio was the "only means of communication". In AZ it seems we fit a support role that needs doing and doesn't fit the duties of any other agency. Actually NYC 9/11 was a "doomsday scenario" and guess what Ham operators were there. The fires here in AZ was a "doomsday scenario" and Ham operators were there again providing a vital communication link for the Red Cross. Actually here in AZ it seems there is not a Red Cross situation that they don't demand and expect Ham operators to come out.
>Now, many hams living in a fantasy world of "ham >radio as our savior" in an emergency will be very >angry with me. But FACTS are FACTS. Time we >understood reality.
>Technology has made us FAR less valuable then in days >gone by. And that's why we don't rate in the FCC's >eyes.
I'm not angry with you at all. You have a set of points that are likely valid for the area you live in. Here in AZ where Cell phone coverage is spotty and State, County, and city agencies don't get the money to build good radio systems, its not valid right now. That's not to say in the future it will not be. Technology is funny thing, it has made us less valuable and more valuable at the same time. While complex comm system are available, these might not be available and have gone down during emergencies and in AZ they seem to know that, all Emergency Operations Centers here have Ham Radio Gear as part of thier requirement to be an EOC.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4YJR on October 27, 2003
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KE2IV,
My wife has a new BMW Z4 and she loves it. It seems like an appropriate vehicle for you. I won't get caught dead in the car alone without her though as too many old guys have them.
73
Dave
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 27, 2003
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KD7EFQ loves to confront people with psycho-babble. Just ignore him. Everybody else does!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 27, 2003
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KC5NYJ writes:
"Amateur radio ops could:
a) get a working, generator powered repeater network up and running from a rooftop in a fraction of the time; (Ever hear of a suitcase repeater with cigarette lighter cords and mag mounts?)
b) get a phone patch to HF and back set up quicker; (ever hear of cell phones?)
c) could get a WiFi link to just about anywhere; (Can you say cellphone?)
Setting aside the fact that such "skills" are now largely unnecessary because of advances in TECHNOLOGY and REDUNDANCY, I guess I never really viewed hams as SUPER-HEROS.
Now that KC5NJY (chief superhero)has demonstrated that SUPERHERO-HAMS like himself are SMARTER, FASTER, and MORE USEFUL, then the trained and paid professionals, I guess we sould just fire all of the professionals and put KC5NJY in charge of our future.
Son, let's just leave the ***really important*** stuff to professionals, not "amateur" superheros. I, for one, don't want to be in the hands of people that are "legends in their own minds".
What say you SUPERHEROS go back to assisting the red cross with doughnut and coffee traffic. Ok?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 27, 2003
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Well... how 'bout passing me some traffic doughnuts while I read the rest of these forum messages.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KG4UQZ on October 27, 2003
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I have read this entire list and have read only a few that was good of ham radio. If it's not good then why even be envolved in it . I enjoy my hobbie , and if I can help someone while doing my hobbie,that makes it even better.
As for me, I don't care if the goverment or anybody pats me on the back, or even sayes that I'm a real help, I do what I do, because I enjoy radio .
Why do you do it?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 28, 2003
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"Amateur radio ops could:
a) get a working, generator powered repeater network up and running from a rooftop in a fraction of the time; "
Hey,
Have you taken a look at most "Amateur radio ops" these days?
How the heck are these "supersized blubber bubbas" ever going to get onto a rooftop?
There goes the roof....
Gimme a break.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 28, 2003
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>>>>Setting aside the fact that such "skills" are now largely unnecessary because of advances in TECHNOLOGY and REDUNDANCY, I guess I never really viewed hams as SUPER-HEROS.
Now that KC5NJY (chief superhero)has demonstrated that SUPERHERO-HAMS like himself are SMARTER, FASTER, and MORE USEFUL, then the trained and paid professionals, I guess we sould just fire all of the professionals and put KC5NJY in charge of our future. >>>>
The question is.. Have YOU taken a look at HAM radio lately?
Hats off to the many dedicated Amateur Radio operators now involved in the relief efforts as a fire in California rages and is burning entire communities clear to the ground. These incredibly fast-moving fires driven by hot, dry Santa Ana winds have burned over upward of 25,000 acres. The fire can be seen from space.
So far, he estimated, some 100 ham radio volunteers are participating, many of them supporting the efforts of relief agencies such as the Red Cross and The Salvation Army.
Amateurs are staffing shelters throughout the communities providing assistance. The Red Cross and The Salvation Army were sharing duties at the shelters, which were providing refuge for some 1200 people.
Additional hams have deployed to San Diego-area emergency management offices and hospitals.
Hams in San Diego County have been making use of HF because fires have compromised or damaged some repeaters. The San Diego ARES Net has been activated on 7.233 MHz with 3.905 MHz as a backup. The Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network (SATERN) also has been using 7.233 MHz as a coordinating frequency.
SATERN Coordinator Paul Cook, N6RPF, reports that SATERN has been assisting with communication in the San Diego area and that the situation is busy and intense. He says some broadcast radio stations have had to leave the air because of the fires' proximity.
It appears that Amateur Radio is clearly demonstrating what it is capable of doing in times of Disaster.
Anyone feeling that Amateur Radio is not considered an important function during times of Emergency, better be asking the many families that they have assisted by the many Amateur Radio operators in the San Diego area if they feel the same way.
73
KC8VWM
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AC3P on October 29, 2003
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Update.
Our local RACES/ARES members received letters in the mail yesterday from the Baltimore County Executive thanking them for their help during the Tropical Storm Isabel.
Guess amateur radio operations were important at the local level after all.
No superheroes. Just a useful resource.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 29, 2003
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So hams are "assisting", "staffing" and "manning". and they are using HF.
But WHAT SPECIFICALLY are they doing?
Nobody is ever SPECIFIC. They are allways "assisting" with some vague and un-described effort or "manning" shelters.
WERE THEY:
a) getting those "down" repeater systems back up?
b) setting up "WiFI"?
c) running HF phone patches to pass critical info so that firefighters did not get burned up?
OR WERE THEY:
a) helping the salvation army with doughnut and coffee communications?
b)setting up nets and ASKING for traffic?
c) running around those shelters with talking belts and orange vests?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KC8VWM on October 29, 2003
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W9WHE,
I have a question,
Why does it really matter to what extent they are helping so long as they are making a contribution to the community?
KC8VWM
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 29, 2003
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I'm tired of the orange-vested, badge toting, blue light-on-the-dash wannabees crowing about how incredibly valuable they (and ham radio) are to siociety. These super-heros with their talking belts and orange vests make the rest of us hams look bad.
Those guys make the ham/paramedics among us reluctant to offer their services. They make the ham/rock climbers among us unwilling to help. The ham/engineers won't go near anything those guys touch. NOBODY I know with REAL training and REAL credentials (not that ARRL crap) want to volunteer, because they don't want to be viewed as one of the "superheros" that know more than the paid professionals and can:
1) set up Wifi;
2) rig up a repeater on the roof;
3) run HF patches.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by AE6IP on October 29, 2003
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> W9WHE,
> I have a question,
> Why does it really matter to what extent they are
> helping so long as they are making a contribution to
> the community?
> KC8VWM
I'm watching ABC coverage of the fires now. We've just been informed that 4 firefighters from around here have been seriously injured fighting the wild fires. One of them is dead. Two may not make it through the night. 10,000 good people are putting their lifes at risk to fight these fires. Three more local fire companies are driving down there right now. In addition, safety and emergency staffs are stretched beyond their limits trying to do their job.
Meanwhile, I get email from the ARRL *crowing* about how big a deal it is that a handful of hams are handling a tiny amount of health and welfare traffic for a few Red Cross shelters.
It's called a sense of perspective. Someone should take a large clue-by-four and beat it into the heads of the blue light and badge brigade.
73
Marty
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB2FCV on October 30, 2003
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I feel that our usefulness has dwindled greatly in any sort of Public Service function. I have been a member of RACES in the past and I have been a volunteer firefighter for the past 12 years. I think I remember maybe one call where RACES was ever called out.. when the Red Cross was activated during some storm. I think that they still have their place for low-priority communications, but they will never be a vital, essential, "save-the-world" public service that the "blue-light orange-vest" crowd makes it out to be.
With regards to the comments about hams being able to setup repeaters in minutes, visual surveillance, WiFi quicker than any public service entity; it's a bit of a different process for towns. Before a repeater is put in, there are many local zoning ordinances, town approvals, budgeting, studies and other red tape that has to occur. Once they are built and in place, they are usually secure with several redundant backup systems for both power and radios. If it still fails beyond that, they have not only the power company high-tailing it over to repair the problem.. they also have the communications company on contract to show up 24/7 to take care of any problems as well.
Sure, any one of us can throw up a repeater system in a matter of minutes... but what use will that be to a police or fire department who operate on different frequencies? I don't think I'm going to bring a blue-light-orange vest brigade member into a fire with me to provide communications if our repeater goes down.. I'll just switch to channel two on my portable and go simplex.
In any event, I'm not really sure what it will take to protect our spectrum. I'll continue to operate HF CW until the FCC gives it completely to BPL (Hopefully that will never happen!). I've sent my opinions to the FCC, and through our club we've chipped in and donated to the ARRL for the fight. Beyond that, what more can I do? Worse comes to worse and we have to share spectrum with BPL.. I have my K2, maybe I'll go camping more often :)
73,
James KB2FCV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by NGC7789 on October 30, 2003
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Considering what it has become, why would anyone
want to be part of Homeland Security, a.k.a.
the Dept. of Fatherland Overreaction?
They have done a good job of destroying
the hobby of high power rocketry. Who would
want to participate in the building of the
coming United PoliceState of America?
"People who are willing to give up freedom for the
sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom
nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KE2IV on October 30, 2003
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AND WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE. AND THE "THREAD"
HAS CLEARLY BEEN EXHAUSTED; WE GET THE USUAL 'VISITATION' FROM THE BLACK HELICOPTER CROWD:
----------------------------------------------
"Considering what it has become, why would anyone
want to be part of Homeland Security, a.k.a.
the Dept. of Fatherland Overreaction?
They have done a good job of destroying
the hobby of high power rocketry. Who would
want to participate in the building of the
coming United PoliceState of America?
"People who are willing to give up freedom for the
sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom
nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin"
--------------------------
Wow,
Sure glad your not MY next door neighbor!
[Input sound from Twilight Zone about here...]
Yo, NGC7789 (why do these clowns never ID themselves?),
Time to take the blue lithium pill so you can seem a bit "normal" with the doc tomorrow.
73 and Happy Halloween,
George
KE2IV
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 30, 2003
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KB2FCB writes:
"I don't think I'm going to bring a blue-light-orange vest brigade member into a fire with me to provide communications if our repeater goes down.. I'll just switch to channel two on my portable and go simplex".
What. You can't do that! What about the orange vested, badge carring, talking belt "superheros" that can set up a repeater on the roof, set up WiFi, and run HF phone patches. Don't you know, you NEED them!
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by KB2FCV on October 30, 2003
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W9WHE,
You forgot about the Crank-Up tower to rescue kittens from the tree... shame shame
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 31, 2003
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W3DCG writes:
Stand alone Contest Stations which may or may not have full generator capability can be pressed into service if need be. I would not be at all surprised if on HF, coast to coast and in between, "Amateur" stations of a Contesting genre did not posses the loudest, clearest, cleanest signals on the air, and in the greatest numbers".
Pass me the barf bag. Where do these guys come up with this stuff?
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by W9WHE on October 31, 2003
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I hate to break it to you contest worshipper types, but if the LOCAL P.S. repeater goes down, they need LOCAL communications, not "coast to coast" "your 5/9 Alabama".
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Pulling Together.
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by W8KQE on October 31, 2003
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Regarding BPL and other future spectrum/band encroachments, we need to ALL PULL TOGETHER. There is clout and power in numbers, and as far as I can tell, the ARRL, though not perfect, is THE organization doing something for all. Whether you see it or not.
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K0PP on November 1, 2003
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Another "angle" on emergency service ...
Here in Montana my radio club has been told, in no uncertain terms, that we WILL NOT be used for any form of emergency srvice. Why not? Our services would limit the amount of overtime the (union) dispatchers might be able to work.
Reality: The FCC's not going to come to the outback of Montana for a "minor" enforcement matter.
In this area, hang gliders are users of 2M. One is licensed and contends that his buddies are operating under his "control". (;-)
Hunting outfitters are "regular" users of 2M.
The local ski patrol borrows a commercial company's HT's for use in ski races ... on the company's frequencies.
2M radios are sold in truck stops in Canada and used by Canadian drivers throughout North America.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by WA9SVD on November 1, 2003
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Once they are built and in place, they
are usually secure with several redundant backup systems for both power and radios. If it still fails beyond that, they have not
only the power company high-tailing it over to repair the problem.. they also have the communications company on contract
to show up 24/7 to take care of any problems as well.
--------------------------------------------
James (KB2FCV:)
That's all well and good, and probably what happens 99% of the time. But exceptions DO occur.
Here in So. California, in two different areas, the repeaters used by the fire fighters were incinerated. There's NO 24/7 communication company or power company that is going to get that service restored anytime soon; at least not until the fire area is safe and power is restored; in some of the remote areas, that could be two weeks. Sure it's an extreme case. But THAT is what Emergency Communications and training is all about. It's about that 1% of the time. NO, Amateur Radio Operators are not first responders. Nor are they the primary communications system. Amateur Radio is a BACKUP, a secondary system when Murphy (and/or Mother Nature) gets the upper hand. And hopefully seldom needed. But it still does have a function, but it can only provide that function by training.
Or would rather have hams say "we can't help" because we have no idea what to do or what is required. (It seems to me that the untrained hams are the "blue jacket and orange light" types, who only think they have an official function. Let THEM do the "donut detail," and the serious people provide the real help.)
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Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by NJ6F on November 2, 2003
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The FCC would rather not mention us because if it has to depend on us for communication, that means the country will be in some sad state of affairs technology wise, something that they did not concieve, or really plan for. Sort of like the excess costs of having to rebuild Iraq... or...that the flow of oil for additional revenue would be in such a sad situation or that we would have to go begging to the UN for more funds.
* We are just the last mode of communication our government would have as a back up, so they silently put up with us until and if that sad day ever arrives.
Just my personal gut feeling. We are just the last contingency when all else might fail. Perhaps during a meteor crash with our satellites knocked out for one reason or another, our sheer numbers and placement allow a reasonable probablility of communication.
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RE: Do We Exist In The Eyes of FCC?
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by K1CJS on December 30, 2004
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I choose to ignore some of the posts that are just trolling for reaction and put one simple truth in print. I am in charge of communications for the local EMA, and yes we, as amateur operators, are not called out for simple occurences. The EMA director has stated the amateur operators are for BACKUP communications purposes and should be ready to assist in other ways during occurences where we are called. In my eight years of service we have not been called, but we keep our skills up by going through refreshers and other training.
The truth I choose to point out is this: If we are never called out (I personally hope we never are) but are accidentally in a location/position to help to save a life, is our effort worthwhile? I think it is, or I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
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