The Real Threat
from
KB1IUB
on
October 31, 2003
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We continue to argue about "code" versus "no code" license classes and seemly inevitable effects of the deterioration of the requirements for HF privileges. While we fight among ourselves over petty rules, which every licensed amateur radio operator follows, the freeloaders run amok. They actually even gain publicity. I will keep this succinct, as there are elements, which oppose long-winded bombastic texts.
I am under the impression that Mr. Lance Armstrong of Texas does not have an amateur license. This fellow represents the United States as a member of the USPS racing team. Mr. Armstrong is using amateur radio at low power levels such as 300 mw to communicate with members of his organization while racing. He is not only illegally operating on amateur frequencies, but reports have surfaced that he scrambles his communications. Let us not forgot that commercial activity is forbidden on amateur frequencies. Mr. Armstrong is there for himself and the team’s goal to win the race.
This fellow is a key representative of American bicycling and is using amateur radio illegally. Are we going to do something about it? Instead of worrying about HF access for amateurs, we should take to task any one that violates the rules in any band.
Please look at this web page,
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,462473,00.html.
It is flaunted to the mass market. Readers of Popular Science could be potential amateur radio proponents. They could easily take to operating as freeloaders when they see there are no penalties for such a "hero."
Bill
KB1IUB
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The Real Threat
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by K5MAR on October 31, 2003
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Interesting! I checked, and the DJ-C5T has the usual "MARS-CAP" mod for out of band operations. The question in my mind is: while doing this is illegal in the United States, what are the rules in the countries where he competes (like France, for instance). You're right, this does send the wrong message. As far as encrypting his comms ("This year the radios were specially configured (the team isn't saying how) to avoid eavesdropping."), I would think that any scrambling device would be several times larger than the radio itself. Maybe Pop Sci's source was blowing a little smoke here.
Mark Schneider - K5MAR
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The Real Threat
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by G5FSD on October 31, 2003
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This is the Tour de France. In France...
Over there the 70cm band is only 430-440 MHz, so US-bought radios could operate on non-amateur allocations in Europe (although the radios are probably not type approved for that).
In addition, there is an allocation for unlicenced low power voice comms at 433MHz over there, although I believe it's restricted to 10mW, and again these ham radios haven't been approved even if they use any right low power setting. Still, no-one's really going to bat an eyelid or care two hoots.
73
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The Real Threat
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by KB9YZL on October 31, 2003
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I heartily agree with the Author that Illegal Operation is a serious problem, and that it needs to be addressed. I just don’t think that this is the place to start.
First of all, look at the magnitude of the violation. Let’s face it…..a couple of guys in bicycle shorts with 300 MW transceivers aren’t going to be a QRM problem to anyone. If we make this our focus we look like we’re “picking nits”.
Secondly, going after an athlete for a FCC violation simply because he’s “prominent”, isn’t going to get us anything real. This country has a long standing history of turning a slightly blind eye to what happens “on the field” with athletes. Hell….go to ANY hockey game, and you’ll see at least three serious assaults. If you or I did the same thing on the street, we’d be thrown in jail.
No….The Illegal operators we need to nail are out there “Freebanding” on 10 and 12 meters, and doing it at serious power levels. They are a real problem, and their numbers are growing.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: The Real Threat
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by AB5CC on October 31, 2003
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That "Special Configuration" may simply be CTCSS. My Brother takes FRS radios to the ski slopes. He and others were under the impression that they couldn't be heard by anyone else if they used the "privacy tones" or CTCSS. I showed them how anyone could hear them by simply removing the tone from the channel. They were disappointed.
I subscribe to Popular Science and I did notice the reference to the DJ-C5T. If it has been modded for use on FRS or GMRS frequencies, it is still not type-accepted for that operation. Maybe no one cares. I have been on 5 Carnival cruises and Carnival and probably every other cruise line will rent FRS radios to you for the whole week. What's the problem with this? The ships are registered in Panama or Bahamas, not the US. FRS is a US allocation. When the ship pulls up to a large city somewhere and 200 folks are using UHF radios on an unauthorized frequency, it could be a problem. For example, in Europe, they use a version of FRS which is right in the amateur UHF band. What would happen if a ship sailed to NYC from Europe and docked with 200 folks operating handhelds at 430-440mhz?
Kenneth
AB5CC
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The Real Threat
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by N2KMF on October 31, 2003
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Actually, over in Europe the equivalent to the US FRS band is at 446 MHz, and is in fact called PMR 446, so an alinco dual-band handheld would in fact probably be legal (especially since it puts out less than 1/2 watt and has a non-removable antenna). Before I bought a dual-band handheld myself, the only 70cm radio I had was a PMR446 radio, a Motorola that my brother had purchased for use with his unit in Kosovo. When he came back he knew he couldn't use it, and thought that I, being a ham, might be able to use it. I was pleasantly surprised that the 8 channels were right in the simplex portion of the 70cm band, and I made a couple of contacts with it at 446.0625 (Channel 1). He may be skirting the law in Europe (I don't know about type-acceptance issues over there), but he would certainly be within the spirit of the law, if not the strict text of it. Over here is a different matter.
As for modifiying the radios, my guess is that they will transmit and receive on different freqs, and perhaps use an obscure PL tone. Anything else will add weight, and I get the impression that they are trying to shave fractions of an ounce. Even if they encrypt it, it wouldn't be anything more than frequency inversion (which is ridiculously insecure).
They would be better off coming up with code words, and changing them once a week or so.
73 de Bill N2KMF
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RE: The Real Threat
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by K0BG on October 31, 2003
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The biggest picture is not Mr. Armstrong, but the so called "freebanders". With the help of Mr. Worth who is still openly selling illegal, non type accepted radios and linears over ebay, they have nearly taken over the 27 thru 30 Mhz band spread. And now the guy is selling 40 meter radios too. What next? Modified Alincos?
Alan, KØBG
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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>>>>I am under the impression that Mr. Lance Armstrong of Texas does not have an amateur license. <<<<
While this is true, I am wondering if we have all the facts in front of us.
Your article mentions that Mr. Armstrong isn't a licensed amateur but is Alinco radio even being used on Amateur Radio frequencies?
The Popsci article only indicated that he was using a "credit card" sized Amateur Radio. This was probobly chosen due to weight considerations and speed performance factors etc.
The article did mention that his radio was "modified."
These modifications at some point probobly required the expertise of an authorized individual equipped with a bench, scope and frequency counter etc.
Surely, they went through some preplanning stages to establish what appears to be a complex communications system.
I mean, I don't think they simply walked into the Alinco store and said, hey that's what we will use. The racing team probobly had to carefully research and choose everything used for the race.
I have some questions:
What frequency does the race TX/RX on?
Has the racing team been granted a special event or "other" license by the F.C.C.?
Is the racing team listed in the F.C.C. database?
Perhaps, special consideration was given by the F.C.C. to use this particular "non type accepted" equipment in the MUR band?
I don't condone illegal radio operation, I am just trying to get the facts before all the assumptions are posted online.
73
KC8VWM
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RE: The Real Threat
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by NI0C on October 31, 2003
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I agree with Kent on this one. I can't get worked up about people working VHF or UHF at power levels that aren't likely to be heard by anyone more than a kilometer away. We do have serious interference on the HF bands (I've heard it on 40m as well as 10m and 12m) from unlicensed RF poachers, as well as deliberate band rage interference by licensed hams who should know better.
73 de Chuck NI0C
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The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by W3DCG on October 31, 2003
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Well, I checked out that link.
Very cool.
Tiny power levels, I wonder how that might really work for them on simplex. Hopefully works for them.
If it's legal there, that is good.
Otherwise it's a matter of enforcement, because likely they compete in various countries.
Does the threat, "threat," warrant enforcement?
Whether or not it does, it could be something to keep in mind for the hosting teams' if it should turn out to be illegal in their country.
Could throw a wrench into the spokes of some key tactics and weaken overall strategy.
A Tech license is not so difficult they may decide to license each racer.
Next the question might be, as it's an exhibition sport on public through-ways, could it be considered more like a parade rather than a professional race such as NASCAR; but then so does Grand Prix F-1 motorsport take place often on public roads. Perhaps as they are mobile, non motorized, a line could be drawn there as to the legality, or- if technicaly illegal, not enforced.
It is likely not a case such as harmful interference caused by a non-coordinated repeater. They never mention the use of repeaters. These races occur often on terrain of varying topography. Hills, mountainsides, between tall, large structures, such as down-town metro locations. They likely will not be maliciously interfering. Or interfering at all. They will be on whatever frequency they are on for only the duration of the race.
However the technical legalities pan out, these bicyclists are prime candidates for RDF Sport, and the HF Pack groups. They merely need two things:
Exposure to Amateur radio, and Interest- perhaps one of these bicyclists might find interest in the legal operation of a back-pack class HF-UHF radio, from exotic locations around the globe.
I see some real potential there.
I'm just dreaming now, but imagine every member being a licensed ham, communicating by callsign- Amateur callsign. I think it would be great. As far as "encryption"
it's not like they are a party to some covert, subversive, criminal activity.
They are merely, riding their bicycles, in virtually complete view of the general public. Those credit card sized transceivers are difficult to modify, probably all surface mount technology- therefore it is likely that the "encryption," is already built-in to the standard radio. I doubt Alinco is going to retool just for them, or make a special, hand modified order of credit card radios for them. If someone like the other team wanted to eaves drop badly enough, likely they could enlist the help of some Ham who could figure it out, but it would not be worth the trouble.
And so, the "encryption," really just serves to bolster the case that in fact, the probability of this team, during the race, unintentionally causing harmful interference, close to absolute nil. If anything, it would be opposing teams trying to jam their communications, and then- that would be a case of malicious interference.
Now then, these riders, self-propel at velocities which place them on the global pinnacle- ultimate bicycle elite. However, it should be no different than any bicycle mobileer.
Recruit them I say, make them interested in becoming hams. If it is okay for a Teacher to be "on-the-clock" while demonstrating Ham radio in a class-room, it should likewise be okay for a licensed Amateur to ride a bike and operate his/her radio, demonstrating to the world, on Television, while also, "on the clock." But a teacher is teaching, educating. But the bicyclist is demonstrating some key principles of physics, to which every kid can relate. Most kids have or have had a bicycle. No matter, lawyers could eat this up, but I do not think rules and regulations were intended to prevent this kind of harmless operation. These bicycling mW radio users do not even emit carbon-monoxide.
73.
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by NE1Z on October 31, 2003
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The real threat is US hams thinking the world revolves around ham radio & US rules about it.
Face it, he could go to Nextel & no one would hear him. Then you would cry "he can't drive & talk on his cell phone"...
You people need to get over yourselves & this self-importance you feel must be thrust upon everyone.
Who really cares what radios or freqs are used in France?
Jeeves!
Bill/SB
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RE: The Real Threat
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by W9JCM on October 31, 2003
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Not having a lisc is one thing BUT is the unit type accepted for use on the band. Modifying the unit and using a non type accepted radio could also be breaking the law. I guess even after getting snipped he still has some hehehe.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by N8XRV on October 31, 2003
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Are they using these radio only in France? So be it, let them have their fun, let France decide if they are legal or not.
Are they using these radios illegally in the US? I don't care if they are running .0005mw. I don't care if they are using UHF, VHF, HF etc. The rules should be enforced!
If it's OK for someone to use low power in the HAM bands, and not be a HAM, then soon the power will start to increase, and eventually it's going to be a mess.
I earned the privlege of using specific frequencies on VHF and UHF, and am working on my General Ticket. I don't think just anybody on a bicycle should be able to use them because they want to.
As for the encrypting, as mentioned earlier, in France? then the french should enforce it if there is any illegal activity.
I doubt they know how to encrypt anyway, They probably turned on CTSS or DCS and think it's encrypted.
My 2 cents.
73 N8XRV
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RE: The Real Threat
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by WILLY on October 31, 2003
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"
by KB9YZL on October 31, 2003
I heartily agree with the Author that Illegal Operation is a serious problem, and that it needs to be addressed. I just don’t think that this is the place to start. "
Agreed. Sort of.
"
First of all, look at the magnitude of the violation. Let’s face it…..a couple of guys in bicycle shorts with 300 MW transceivers aren’t going to be a QRM problem to anyone. If we make this our focus we look like we’re “picking nits”.
I wouldn't base it on the magnitude of the violation. That is, if there is a violation at all. I see many others have commented on the possibility that there might not even be a violation.
But if there is one, then there is one. It matters not if they are QRMing anyone or not.
I agree that it would have the appearance of picking nits though.
These people are world class in their field, and wouldn't want to get a blotch on their name. They are probably self conscious about their image. If they truly are in violation, simply letting them know would likely end it. I think that is what should be the goal in this specific case - if there is a violation, get it to stop.
"
Secondly, going after an athlete for a FCC violation simply because he’s “prominent”, isn’t going to get us anything real."
Agreed
"
This country has a long standing history of turning a slightly blind eye to what happens “on the field” with athletes. Hell….go to ANY hockey game, and you’ll see at least three serious assaults. If you or I did the same thing on the street, we’d be thrown in jail."
No comment
"
No….The Illegal operators we need to nail are out there “Freebanding” on 10 and 12 meters, and doing it at serious power levels. "
Agreed that these people that transmit illegally need to be prosecuted.
"They are a real problem,"
Agreed.
The obvious problem is the present violation of laws. I feel that there are more problems with them in the future, if something isn't done about it, and quickly.
I wonder if the fines imposed would pay the salaries of those doing the work?
It would for a while, until the violators thinned out.
"
and their numbers are growing."
I doubt there is a way to either prove or disprove this statement, but I believe it - and it is a very sad situation.
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by WILLY on October 31, 2003
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"
by NE1Z on October 31, 2003
The real threat"
Threat to what?
" is US hams thinking the world revolves around ham radio & US rules about it.
.... "
The world doesn't. Everybody here knows that.
But this forum DOES revolve around ham radio.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by NGC7789 on October 31, 2003
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Interesting article.
Personally, I don't like carbon fiber frames.
Both my frames are 4130 Cro-Moly. One, a Bianchi,
is TIG welded, the other, a Miyata, is lugged &
brazed. It's too bad making a good lugged frame
is a dying art, as this makes the strongest frame.
Dura-Ace components are excellent. My Miyata
frame has a Dura-Ace crankset & shifters.
However, I think 10-speed cog clusters are
overkill. They require a very narrow chain,
and are touchy to set up with indexed shifters.
I've never liked clipless pedals, I use MKS
track pedals with toe clips.
(Sorry this is off-topic, but I love
road bikes.)
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The Real Threat
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by KK9H on October 31, 2003
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I would suggest forwarding this information to Riley Hollingsworth at the FCC so he can also be aware of our concerns.
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by WILLY on October 31, 2003
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"
The Real Threat
from KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
----
Please look at this web page,
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,462473,00.html.
It is flaunted to the mass market. Readers of Popular Science could be potential amateur radio proponents. They could easily take to operating as freeloaders when they see there are no penalties for such a "hero." "
Wouldn't it be interesting to email the editors at that magazine with the url for THIS conversation, and invite them to come read it and comment here?
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RE: The Real Threat
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by K4FAU on October 31, 2003
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yeah -- i see the FCC jumping all over the most famous name in Bicycling becuase he may or may not have used a radio to communicate to his team at 300 mw...
give me a break -- this i the very reason that people think we are idiots -- go after the guy broadcasting on 11 meters with 1000 watts ...
the way to do this right is to have the ARRL get with Mr. Armstrong -- get him a tech no code license... and then let the world know that Lance is a "fellow" ham...
not by arresting him...
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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Why is everyone "assuming" that this person is operating illegally?
Just because the radio is an "Amateur Type" radio doesn't mean it is being used illegally.
The article only indicated that he was using a "credit card" sized Amateur Radio. This was probobly chosen due to weight considerations and speed performance factors etc.
The article did mention that his radio was "modified."
These modifications at some point probobly required the expertise of an authorized individual equipped with a bench, scope and frequency counter etc.
Surely, they went through some preplanning stages to establish what appears to be a complex communications system.
I have some questions:
What frequency does the race TX/RX on?
Has the racing team been granted a special event or "other" license by the F.C.C.?
Is the racing team listed in the F.C.C. database?
Perhaps, special consideration was given by the F.C.C. to use this particular "non type accepted" equipment in the MUR band?
What are the facts?
73
KC8VWM
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RE: The Real Threat
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by W2IRT on October 31, 2003
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Nobody's suggesting we arrest him or cite him (I would hope), but I think it might be prudent to say that his heroics are setting an example for the World and that it would be a good idea, in keeping with the spirit of such an awesome responsibility, to use technology lawfully. I think the last thing anybody would want to see would be some French official, in a fit of anti-American pique, disqualify him next year for breaking a French or EU radio law, etc.
As to encrypting, don't kid yourselves -- there are some *very* secure rolling-code inversion modules that can fit into pretty well anything these days. Transcrypt and ComSpec both offer these, as well as others.
Cheers,
Peter W2IRT
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RE: The Real Threat
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by N1KCW on October 31, 2003
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another amen...
what is the big issue with running 300mw with an out of band modded radio on an frs frequency...if this was such a big deal, believe me you wouldn't be able to mod a radio by removing a solder blob....
its illegal to drive 66mph on most highways too...the FCC must love it when someone whines about such minor stuff
rich
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RE: The Real Threat
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on October 31, 2003
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Holy $hit Bat Man!
Who would have known the REAL Threat to ham radio is Lance Armstrong.
BPL.
Illegals on ham bands.
Business trying to buy ham allocated frequencies.
CB gear masquerading as 10 meter gear.
Interference from satellite TV switching power supplies.
Businesses wanting to use ham bands for consumer products.
All of these are just a “pikers” compared to Lance Armstrong using a ham radio in France (where it is probably legal?).
What was the reply from the FCC when you nailed this sociopath?
What was Lance Armstron's reply when you mailed him a letter about this?
Bob
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KE6YOC on October 31, 2003
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Is this a real threat? Threat to who/what? Do you think the French care?
By the way - today is Halloween, try tuning to 6.955 tonight for Pirate action.
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The Real Threat
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by W4VR on October 31, 2003
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You are worrying about something inconsequential to the hobby. I sincerely hope you don't lose sleep at night over it.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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:I heartily agree with the Author that Illegal
:Operation is a serious problem, and that it needs to
:be addressed. I just don’t think that this is the
:place to start.
Yes it is. The fact remains illegal operation is
being encouraged by Armstrong's use. It has received
publicity. I am shocked at the people that think Armstrong only bikes in France. The Tour of Italy
is just as important if not more important. He bikes
in America as well.
Not only is he using the radio illegally in terms of
transmitting without a license, he is USING IT FOR COMMERICAL ACTIVITY.
When every other bicycle racer uses amateur radio
are you still going to think the same? They
are a number that do. This encourages freeband in HF
as they don't think the FCC cares about ANY of the
RULES.
If no opposing cars were in the intersection would you run through a red light? I wouldn't. I think that it
is time that we examine all rule violations.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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:The biggest picture is not Mr. Armstrong, but the so
:called "freebanders". With the help of Mr. Worth who
:is still openly selling illegal, non type accepted
No, the problem is with fellows like Mr. Armstrong.
They are erroding the enforcement ability of the FCC.
These fellows inspire HF freebanders and others
to illegally use HF. They see a lack of care by us
and the FCC regarding these things. The flaunting in Popular Science does not help at all.
I would almost guarantee that issue lost hundreds of
potential hams and generated several freebanders on
various portions of the spectrum.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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Many of you are missing two of the points regarding
the issue.
1) The activity is a COMMERICIAL event. These fellows
are working. This is not an average joe riding
down the street. They are competing for CASH.
2) The activity is illegal and authorized use of
the radios. IT was published in an exteremely
popular magazine to the detriment of the amateur
radio service.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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:The real threat is US hams thinking the world revolves
:around ham radio & US rules about it.
Wake up. He is a US Citizen. He is representing the
USPS! He is breaking the rules of other countries in addition to the USA's rules when operating here. Did
you even understand my arguments?
Such operation regardless of where it occurs is not
harmless. It is a flagrant rule violation. You like
to compare illegal HF use to a murder and illegal VHF use to simply robbery. The robber would still get at minimum a fine and be punished! What happens if he operates at 144.100 Mhz? These rule violations encourage other rule violations when there is a lack
of enforcement.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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:the way to do this right is to have the ARRL get with
:Mr. Armstrong -- get him a tech no code license... and
:then let the world know that Lance is a "fellow" ham..
I am under the impression that the technical examinations are too difficult. In the recent
past I have heard this statement from several
bicyclsts. However, this is still a commercial
activity and should not be done on amateur
freqs.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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:lawfully. I think the last thing anybody would want to :see would be some French official, in a fit of
:anti-American pique, disqualify him next year for
:breaking a French or EU radio law, etc.
Another side issue of the coin. I would like to say
that I heard the French treated him very respectably,
today.
I am truly saddened by the fellows here that do
not understand the issue. Who cares about BPL
when anyone can illegally broadcast on the their
bicycle while engaged in a COMMERCIAL activity?
We should or we might as well tell BPL to roll
in. Why would people refuse to draw the line?
Why would they want to tolerate individuals that
that could harm the reputation of the US and
the amateur radio service since few would be
interfered by such activity?
Well to be honest with you most CB'ers do not
interfere with amateur radio activity. Most
don't run much power with high loss coaxial
cable to poorly radiating antennae. Most CB'ers
don't intentionally interfere with TV
equipment. They are stuck in the same boat
as Amateurs as TV equipment remains in poor
shape today.
Many of these individuals will think that
operating on the amateur frequencies are ok.
Why? Because Popular Science published an
article with Lance Armstrong and amateur
radio. It isn't just this specific incident
but a widely growing circle of people through
out the country with the impression that FCC
and rules regarding radio usage doesn't
matter. As you allow one individual to
skate the rules then they all can.
They also have the opinion that the amateur
service regulations can be simply ignored
due to the development of this mindset.
No rule violation can be allowed.
Bill
P.S. It seems that many of you think one
only bikes in France. I suggest that you
do some reading on the subject.
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by K2WH on October 31, 2003
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If we take Mr. Armstrong out back beat him with sticks and then shoot him in the head will that be sufficient?
This is silly. What have you done to help battle a
real threat like BPL.
K2WH
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RE: The Real Wake Up
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by NE1Z on October 31, 2003
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KB1IUB scribbled: No, the problem is with fellows like Mr. Armstrong.
They are erroding the enforcement ability of the FCC.
These fellows inspire HF freebanders and others
to illegally use HF.
The problem really is if he is so high profile, why hasn't the FCC cited him yet? Afterall, he isn't hiding from public view! There is Erroded Enforcement, already here, for 5 years! Our "Ham Radio Hero" can't get off the ground or out of the hamfest lecture hall!
Give me a break, you people are all about control & legal arguments. I will just operate & you can continue to waste your time arguing.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC2LSU on October 31, 2003
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geeze, cant we give Lance a break, the guy survived advanced testicular cancer that had spread to his lungs and his brain back in 1996. He should be given an honorary Extra license just for that feat of magic
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC2LSU on October 31, 2003
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Lance's treatment during Oct-Dec 1996 involved removal of the cancerous testicle, one initial round of BEP chemotherapy (Bleomycin, Etoposide, and Platinol), followed by 3 rounds of VIP chemo (which substitutes Ifosfamide for Bleomycin to reduce the chance of lung damage). He also had brain surgery to remove 2 cancerous lesions on the top / back of his brain - this was done in conjunction with the VIP chemo sessions. Lance continues to receive regular tests to check for any recurrence - all tests so far have been completely clean and he will be considered "cured" 5 years after diagnosis (Oct 2001).
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KB1IUB on October 31, 2003
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KC8VWM:
I did a search for the team and Armstrong
to see if there were any licenses. I did
find an Armstrong with a tech license in
California. I don't think that they are
related.
TO ALL:
I have talked to several people that
are under the impression that they are
operating the radios within the amateur
band. There is AFAIK no license issued
for any operation. Perhaps people will
start getting my point. Everyone in
the world knows that they are doing
this except hams apparently. This is
erroding any other potential rule
enforcement for the service. The
buck has to stop somewhere.
Bill
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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>>>By the way - today is Halloween, try tuning to 6.955 tonight for Pirate action. <<<<<
Why? is that where you will be transmitting tonight?
(just kidding)
73 & Happy Halloween
KC8VWM
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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>>>>....The activity is illegal and authorized use of
the radios. IT was published in an exteremely
popular magazine to the detriment of the amateur
radio service.
Bill <<<<<
How the heck does the article do all this Bill?
As far as most readers are concerned he may very well be a licensed amateur radio operator.
I don't recall reading anywhere,
"Here is Mr. Armstrong cycling along with his illegal Alinco credit card sized amateur radio, -hey kids at home, you should try operating illegal Amateur Radio too!" written anywhere.
Besides, how do you know that Alinco didn't just "custom make" this radio for the racing team on a "legally" assigned and licensed F.C.C. frequency in exchange for free "publicity." It's not exactly the first time this ever happened.
Boy, it sure seems when these forums get rolling on a perception (right or wrong) it really goes out to left field with all sorts of assuptions.
Next thing we are going to hear is "Red Cross personell is illegally using Amateur Radio equipment on F.C.C. assigned frequencies." oh, wait.. they are!
and non licensed Amateur Radio operators too!
Gee, the F.C.C. allows that? Go figure...
KC8VWM
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The Real Threat
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by KB9YZL on October 31, 2003
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Many of the posts here seem to be concerned with “The Message” Mr. Armstrong’s apparent violation sends to the public. I’m not so sure it sends any message at all.
In reading that article in Popular Science, how many of the “non-radio” general public would even be aware that there was a potential rules violation in what Mr. Armstrong was doing??.................Probably none!........They probably think everything is on the up-and-up, and it wouldn’t even occur to them to see the whole thing as an enticement to “The Dark Side”.
“Joe Average” will read that article, and think; “Hmmm……cool little radio!”. He will then turn the page and read the next offering, promptly dismissing Mr. Armstrong’s radio as one of those things that is of no real importance.
We have to be careful! By making a big public issue of the whole thing, we could easily do far more damage than the original article did.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KC5NYJ on October 31, 2003
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It's possible, but not probably the radios have been modded to use FRS or GMRS. If it were a factory mod, with the radios set for channelized use only, there's no reason they wouldn't pass or get an exemption. It is, after all, the USPS team. I'm sure they have some pull with Riley's Rangers. As for "encryption"? Highly unlikely. First, the radio would need to be totally redesigned. There is no provision for scrambling on that radio from the factory. Who knows? Popular Science and it's reporters are not really the brain trust of journalism, you know.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KA3RFE on October 31, 2003
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Since when does the FCC have jurisdiction in France, or Italy or any other country? They DON'T! American laws have no reach outside this country. So he's an American citizen? Big Fat Deal! So he's engaged in a commercial endeavor? If he's not within an area in which the FCC has no control over, he's not breaking any FCC regs.
If France and the other countries where Armstrong is racing have specfic rules in the frequency bands he's using, then THEY are the ones with the jurisdiction.
And while I'm typing this: WHAT THE BLOODY HELL HAS TYPE ACCEPTANCE TO DO OUTSIDE THE U.S.A.??? Type acceptance is an FCC matter and doesn't have a dammed single thing to do with any radios used outside the country. That's why you will find equipment listed "for export only" on some gear made here.
Read my lips: American government regulations, laws, jurisdictions et. al. have no power outside the areas not under United States control.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC5NYJ on October 31, 2003
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OK-
Perhaps this is yet another case of flying off the handle with no real info to back up the charges.
Here's an excerpt that pretty well explains the deal-
"On the Web
We are in the middle of the Tour de France, which means that whole world can pass its time watching Lance Armstrong act out his role as cycling's superman. While much has been made of Mr. Armstrong's physical attributes, notably an amazing lung capacity, the 20-day race is as much about machine as man.
Visit http://www.popsci.com/popsci
science/article/ to find a detailed discussion of almost everything you might want to know about the Armstrong technology. His special aids include a 10th cog in his rear wheel, which translates into two additional gears to aid him during mountain climbs. Then there is his four-fabric, Swift Spin skin suit, whose manufacturer claims it may cut a minute off his race time over the course of an hour.
And not least is the credit-card-size Alinco DJ-C5T dual-band two-way radios, designed to tell Mr. Armstrong and his teammates how they and everyone else is doing. These Dick Tracy devices have been around for a while, but this year they've been given special frequencies to combat eavesdropping."
See? "Special Frequencies". That tells me Alinco is in on the deal or somehow this has been taken care of.
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RE: Woodpecker clatter
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on October 31, 2003
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OK.
So tell us.
How many years did you have to listen to the INFAMOUS 28.635 truckers? Did you send any tapes of them to the FCC?
When you first got on HF, how bad were the illegals. What are they like today?
Do you think BPL will cause as much interference as the Russian Woodpecker?
Do you have any proof that Lance Armstrong is using a ham radio in the USA for commercial purposes?
What do you think should be done about the fishing trawlers, from Japan, using the bottom of 7 Mcs?
Bob
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RE: The Real Threat
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by PE1RA on October 31, 2003
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:lawfully. I think the last thing anybody would want to :see would be some French official, in a fit of
:anti-American pique, disqualify him next year for
:breaking a French or EU radio law, etc.
[snip]
:I am truly saddened by the fellows here that do
:not understand the issue. Who cares about BPL
:when anyone can illegally broadcast on the their
:bicycle while engaged in a COMMERCIAL activity?
In Europe, 433-434 MHz is free for 10 milliwatt use. Also 446 MHz (8 channels) are free with 500 milliwatt. (remenber that 70cm over here is 430-440, in some countries even 430-436 or 432-440).
Commercial operation? Alot of McDonalds Drive-ins use 433.2100 and 433.4100 for ther communication with the 'ordering pole'. Did you Americans know this?
73 de Rene PE1RA
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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KA3RFE,
Good point, in another country they may very well not even have a "Type Acceptance" program of any kind at all!
Besides, I think it costs about $6k for a visit to the FCC lab. Alinco might already have these type accepted in the commercial/gov channels for narc/surveillance use.
I am sure the expense is of no matter or consequence to to Lance Armstrong's United States Postal Service Racing Team.
KC8VWM
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RE: The Real Threat
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by W7COM on October 31, 2003
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KA3RFE: "Read my lips: American government regulations, laws, jurisdictions et. al. have no power outside the areas not under United States control."
Yeah, tell that to Manuel Noriega.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by PE1RA on October 31, 2003
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Hi KA3RFE,
:Since when does the FCC have jurisdiction in France,
:or Italy or any other country? They DON'T! American
:laws have no reach outside this country. So he's an
:American citizen? Big Fat Deal! So he's engaged in a
:commercial endeavor? If he's not within an area in
:which the FCC has no control over, he's not breaking
:any FCC regs.
:If France and the other countries where Armstrong is
:racing have specfic rules in the frequency bands
:he's using, then THEY are the ones with the
:jurisdiction.
Many Americans feel that they do have jurisdiction. A few years ago, the US adopted a law that made it legal for US law enforcement agencies to arrest people in other countries.
They did not bother with jurisdiction then. All of Europe cried out loud and the law was ammended....
: And while I'm typing this: WHAT THE BLOODY HELL HAS
: TYPE ACCEPTANCE TO DO OUTSIDE THE U.S.A.??? Type
We do not have type acceptance over here in Holland. You are very much right.
:Read my lips: American government regulations, laws,
:jurisdictions et. al. have no power outside the
:areas not under United States control.
True. I am a no-code licencee and can use the HF bands in most CEPT countries nowadays... I don't think the FCC would approve if they had jurisdiction. Sorry (hi)
73 de Rene PE1RA
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8VWM on October 31, 2003
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.....<<<< Commercial operation? Alot of McDonalds Drive-ins use 433.2100 and 433.4100 for ther communication with the 'ordering pole'. Did you Americans know this?
73 de Rene PE1RA >>>>
Now hold it a minute Rene, your going to stir another bee's nest over here in America.
"News Headline"
Washington, DC (Reuters)- "Ham Has Beef Over Pole"
... Can I get fries with that?
KC8VWM
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The Real Threat
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by W2CZ on October 31, 2003
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Tour de France is in France?? FCC jurisdiction in France?? I think not!
BPL threatens us and we worry about a biker in France geeezzz!
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KA3RFE on October 31, 2003
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What most of you dingbats having hiisy fits need to understand that whatever happens in another country is completely outside the jurisdiction of the FCC. FCC regs only apply to areas within the control of the United States. France isn't one of them.
Whether or not he may be violating French law and operating illegally is a matter for the French to deal with, not the FCC nor American amateur radio operators.
Sheesh.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by AG4RQ on October 31, 2003
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Lately I've been noticing quite a bit of SSB activity on 30m. Today is the first time I heard anything in English. I have no idea if the signals are from the US or not.
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RE: OOPS!
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by OLDFART13 on October 31, 2003
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To the real dingbat, what you fail to consider is that they don't just hook up the radio while in france. Everything is taken care of to the smallest detail and is practiced thousands of times. I'm sure thier comm system was practiced numerous times in Texas and other areas within the US.
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RE: OOPS!
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by OLDFART13 on October 31, 2003
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Very true that they might not even be on ham bands here in the US. Of course I never said that they were. It would be very interesting to find out what freqs they do use.
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Illegals On OUR Ham Bands?
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by W5HTW on October 31, 2003
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Oldfart:
That was a nice job of backpelling.... >>
I read that posting too. Nope, he didn't say they use ham bands, here OR in France. What is "backpelling?"
However ... I don't care if he's carrying a Collins KW-1 on his bike in France, and neither does the FCC. And even if they did, they can't do anything about it.
We have plenty of illegal activity here in the US, and, to be honest, I don't see it as "degrees." If Mr. Armstrong is operating illegally here in the US, he's breaking the law, and, like anyone else, should be caught and have his wrist slapped. If he's operating legally, like on MURS, GMRS, UHF ham, whatever, leave him alone.
Here in our Estado de Nuevo Mexico, we have a whole rash of hot air balloonists and hang glider operators who get HTs and operate on frequencies like 146.12, etc., with no call signs. Of course, they could probably do the same thing with FRS. All over the nation we have trucking companies, taxi operators, escort services, construction companies, operating on two meters or 440 mhz without benefit of license. I say treat 'em all the same, big or little, including Armstrong, if they are breaking the law.
Some of today's hams take the view that it's OK. Those of us who invested a lot of effort and interest in this hobby do not feel that way. We don't like the 'freebies' who buy the new HT and become a pain in the butt on OUR frequencies, without going through a wee dab of the art of ham radio childbirth.
Kinda hard to draw the line, though, isn't it? And getting harder all the time! Do we want it a "little hard," a "lot hard," "real easy," or "incredibly easy," or maybe "free, no effort?" If "free, no effort" is what we want, then that is what we get with these violators. We are moving that line. Or erasing it.
ed
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RE: Illegals On OUR Ham Bands?
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by K4FAU on October 31, 2003
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My understanding is this...
1. The FCC has no jursidiction outside the US so Lance operating the radios in France is a French problem not YOURS...
2. The US Postal Service .. USPS ... is his sponsor .. and thus I bet you that they are the ones that purchased the equipment he requested (although i do know that Alinco gave him these radios for publicity).. but the point being is that he has an official US Govt sponsor and I bet you a million dollars that the FCC has somehow given him and his crew "special permision" to certian freqs ...
3. You assume that the FCC did not give him a "paper" license the way that they do the astronauts -- did you know that since 1997 no space shuttle astronaut has actually taken the test -- but are simply given OJT credit. They are given a one hour clas on how to point the high gain antenna nd reset the radios after power down nd up... If you don't beleive that then ask the FCC for the name of the VE and test date and location of the astronauts!!!!
But your right -- lets go after him -- that will make us all look good .. perhaps we can all get together and tel the FCC if they don't do this then we will all tear up our licenses.. maybe he can get jail time -- that will insure that us Hams will look great on CNN.. that we protected the world against such a renegade s Lance Armstrong operating on 300 mw....
Once you are done with him lets go after the red Cross -- cause they also use our hams freqs to do thing like "help poeple".. what kind of excuse is that ...
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Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by NE1Z on October 31, 2003
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He has a Tech call, KF6MHQ, so what is it your business?
I guess you would rather "relay" through a stupid voice net so you can be "in control" of what he says to his team?
That is so you all can claim "public service"?
Wake up indeed! Next topic, whining about FRS radios for business applications. Afterall, they aren't "family" but they also aren't licensed. That never matters in the endless legal argument!
All you OO wannabes should move to France!
NE1Z/SB
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by K6BBC on November 1, 2003
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Why would anybody give a hoot about what Lance Armstrong does in France. Ham Radio is a hobby. It’s not a religion. It’s not a cult. It has piss little to do with public service. My suggestion, if you want to save the hobby, learn to have interesting conversations (yes, conversations – not QSO) while on the air.
JUST GET OVER YOURSELF.
K6BBC
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RE: Illegals On OUR Ham Bands?
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by WA9SVD on November 1, 2003
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3. You assume that the FCC did not give him a "paper" license the way that they do the astronauts -- did you know that
since 1997 no space shuttle astronaut has actually taken the test -- but are simply given OJT credit. They are given a one
hour clas on how to point the high gain antenna nd reset the radios after power down nd up... If you don't beleive that then
ask the FCC for the name of the VE and test date and location of the astronauts!!!!
--------------------------------
Just curious. If that's true, then why aren't ALL the astronauts licensed?
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KE2IV on November 1, 2003
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"Interesting article.
Personally, I don't like carbon fiber frames.
Both my frames are 4130 Cro-Moly. One, a Bianchi,
is TIG welded, the other, a Miyata, is lugged &
brazed. It's too bad making a good lugged frame
is a dying art, as this makes the strongest frame.
Dura-Ace components are excellent. My Miyata
frame has a Dura-Ace crankset & shifters.
However, I think 10-speed cog clusters are
overkill. They require a very narrow chain,
and are touchy to set up with indexed shifters.
I've never liked clipless pedals, I use MKS
track pedals with toe clips.
(Sorry this is off-topic, but I love
road bikes.) "
OOOHHHH,
You are an old roadie, aren't you.
Still into steel after all these years of aluminum and carbon?
I switched to aluminum (just brought my trusty old first generation Cannondale out to our new home in Tucson) to ride El Tour.
Tried out a "Lance special" Trek before doing so. VERY NICE...
Next bike will definitely be carbon - gave up on ChroMoly steel long ago - too springy for me.
But carbon definitely is "sweeter" than aluminum - which is a hard butt ride.
Agree on Dura Ace. Definitely top line for me too. Have it on my late model Cannondale back in NY.
But after relunctantly making the switch to "clipless" have come to love it. Same with index shifting. That's the one "regret" with the old timer Cannondale. But maybe using the down tube levers will keep the nostalgia quotient at an appropriate level.
But when I go for that new carboTrek will probably live with Ultegra.
Go Lance, Go Roadies - sooooo tired of "mountain bikers"!
Sure hope he gets the record breaker next year.
Oh, now where were we about some clown misinterpeting the use of Euro FRS frequencies via CTCSS coding in order for the USPS racing team to maintain communications? How come no one filters out this off-base crap.
Amazing how an ill-informed person could waste all these megabytes.
73 es keep ridin'
George
KE2IV
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RE: The Real Threat
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by W3DCG on November 1, 2003
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To PE1RA, I've got two words for you:
THANK YOU.
That really helps bring this all back to the ground. I really feel this to be petty. One could liken it to throwing someone in jail because they were found with a joint, when we really ought to be after the crystal-methamphetamine cooks and distributors, shooting first and asking questions later. Well, maybe not- we should ask questions first, verify the answers, re-verify them, and then shoot.
Or making a big deal and busting someone for J-walking when the road is already closed to traffic during a parade.
Get real, at three-tenths of a watt, on UHF, SIMPLEX,and DCS to boot, what is the big deal.
I agree that making a big deal out of that, harms the image of Ham radio. For the sake of a positive public image, we should applaud their use of this technology that is old-hat-standard to us, and assist them- in the same spirit that we use our radios to assist during marathons, parades, The Special Olympics, and other high-profile media events.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by K6BBC on November 1, 2003
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All posters please take note. KE2IV, George, is my personal choice to replace the current president of the ARRL after a vote of no confidence. Please join me in this grass root movement. Save your hobby. Save ham radio. Long live Percy Maxwell Hiram or what ever his name was.
K6BBC
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KE2IV on November 1, 2003
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K6BBC writes:
"Why would anybody give a hoot about what Lance Armstrong does in France. Ham Radio is a hobby. It’s not a religion. It’s not a cult. It has piss little to do with public service. My suggestion, if you want to save the hobby, learn to have interesting conversations (yes, conversations – not QSO) while on the air.
JUST GET OVER YOURSELF.
K6BBC "
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the ever succinct and on-target comment.
Yes, too many self-appointed "guardians" seem to feel they need to "police" the hobby - even when they know diddly-squat about international frequency allocations for various communications services.
Given this highly nationalistic phase we in the US are going through - I guess it's not surprising that hams here think they can control the rest of the world! Is it any wonder that more and more even our "friends" are becoming disgusted with us?
Too often we forget that ours is an international hobby with variations on frequency and mode allocations.
Reminds me of what my school teachers used to say:
"Put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion!"
73,
George
P.S. While not "on the air" this was a conversation - not a QSO
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KC8QMU on November 1, 2003
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For all you nice people here on Eham.net,
I thought I would supply you some information on NE1Z,
He is the infamous "suckbag" from 3.910, 7.240, and 21.430 Mhz.
Over the past 2 years, he has become famous for his daily (and nightly) QRM, malicious interference, and vulgar derogitory remarks to us.
Almost each and every day, for about 2 years, this bottom feeder has appeared on air at all times of the day and night to spew his slanderous crap at our group, AND ALL WHILE NOT ID'ING WITH HIS CALL.
Well, here lately the "ol'suckbag" as those in the group have come to call him has been busted by another ham in close proximity to him - caught red handed in one of his usual annoying unidentified slanderous raves against this group.
So, now, does anyone but me find it ironic that NE1Z, the "suckbag", has the intestinal fortitude to come here on eham and post in a subject about the problem of inappropriate operations on the ham bands?
Interesting......
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KC8QMU on November 1, 2003
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Oh, and by the way, this character is also known as "Tony the Jammer". That may ring a bell with a few of you, also.
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The Real Threat
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by KB7LYM on November 1, 2003
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The facts are that the FCC has no jurisdiction in France or other countries. Hamradio gear can be bought by anyone who got the mulla. Alinco's, Icom's, Kenwood
and Yaesu handheld VHF and UHF are used on fishboats,cattle ranches.
And on the Internet you can get all the information you want for any modification.
Armstrong is not the threat.
I think that in a few years that all the bands are available like CB
Remember when you needed a licence for that and it was the FCC law that no hard language was to be transmitted !
NOW THAT WAS A JOKE AYE ?
And for those that sit with bloodshot eyes listining for any violators, getting ulcers,sleepless nights. high blood pressure, I have a solution
A Glass of warm milk
Softly tucked under the soft blankets so they can't hurt themselves
And rest.
Don't worry about it. It will not get any better.
Frank KB7LYM
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KB1IUB on November 1, 2003
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The Call is for a fellow in Californa
that appears to be another fellow.
Why don't you read something before
you make your outrageous comments.
Bill
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by WILLY on November 1, 2003
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"
by W5HTW on October 31, 2003
----
We have plenty of illegal activity here in the US, and, to be honest, I don't see it as "degrees." "
Agreed.
"
If Mr. Armstrong is operating illegally here in the US, he's breaking the law, and, like anyone else, should be caught and have his wrist slapped. If he's operating legally, like on MURS, GMRS, UHF ham, whatever, leave him alone. "
With these two sentences, you have done an excellent job of simplying and summing it up.
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by WILLY on November 1, 2003
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"
by KC8QMU on November 1, 2003
----
Almost each and every day, for about 2 years, this bottom feeder has appeared on air at all times of the day and night to spew his slanderous crap at our group, AND ALL WHILE NOT ID'ING WITH HIS CALL. "
By what means are you identifying him to a certainty?
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by OLDFART13 on November 1, 2003
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Aluminum frame, carbon fiber fork es seatpost, dura-ace 9speed, HED wheels, and no pack pedaling. You gotta love Lance for taking on the world and winning in france especially after beating cancer.
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by NE1Z on November 1, 2003
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Outrageous comments?
Look up libel & read the definition because your case is baseless...
This is all so stupid & really makes us look like "The Tin Foil Hat Patrol"
Get a life people...
NE1Z/SB
PS: I never jammed anyone, I don't have a signal!
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RE: The Real Threat
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by WA9SVD on November 1, 2003
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Speciulation does little good, and relying on details from a PopSci article are only a step away (not necessarily above) a similar article in the Los Angelse Times, Chicago Tribune, or the National Enquirer. It seems there are TWO issues involved: Use of Amateur Frequencies, which we do NOT know from the magazine article, AND use of a modified radio, on an unknown frequency.
IF Mr. Armstrong's team is using Amateur frequencies IN THIS COUNTRY (meaning the U.S.A.) then that is inappropriate use, licensed or not, as it seems it is associated with a profit making venture.
GMRS, again in the U.S., would be more appropriate, and should provide similar coverage.
IF the laws in Europe allow modified radios to be used on various frequencies, and that is what is being done, there's NO violation, regardless of what the U.S. FCC says!
IF Mr. Armstrong is using similar equipment in this country (the U.S.) it is inappropriate use of Amateur frequencies or use of non-type accepted equipment in the frequency allocation for some other service. He (andd his team) should receive a letter from the FCC (if the allegations are proved) just like anyone else.
Illegal use IS illegal use. The laws should apply to everyone, celebrity or not. The attitude that "it's not hurting anyone" is poor, indeed. Who then decides when the line is crossed and an act begins to "hurt somebody?" Or if the speed limit is 65, is it OK to go 70, because it's not hurting anybody? How about 75? 80? 100? 150? If you don't enforce the law and make exceptions for "the rich and famous" what law is there?
All I'm saying is that if there is inappropriate use of Amateur frequencies in the U.S., it IS a matter of concern and it IS a violation. If the regulations are different in other countries, then it's up to THAT country to take action IF a violation occurs.
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The Real Threat
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by N5QDY on November 1, 2003
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Hey all--
I have also spoken to some hang gliding enthusiasts who also use low watts and amateur frequencies for their hobby. They actually told me they were using the ham bands. When I told them I was a ham, it didn't seem to bother them that they were operating illegally.
I only got their first names each time, and it was only a conversation in passing, so I could not report them. Would anyone have cared if I did report them?
Scott
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC8QMU on November 1, 2003
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WILLY,
This is known because after he was caught in the process, he started coming on the frequencies and attempted to play nice. Some of the guys are willing to play with him, others aren't.
Besides, check out his signature. /SB
Guess what that means!
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RE: The Real Threat
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on November 1, 2003
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If you have proof they are illegals on ham bands, and can provide information to the FCC identifying them, and don't do it, who will?
Bob
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The Real Threat
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by T32AI on November 1, 2003
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Here in the western Pacific the freebanders own 10M and often are found @ 14.014, 21.015, & 18.075. Only the CQ WW SSB contest ran 'em off the 10M band, but just for the wknd. The debate over U.S. rules & regs + code/no-code aren't even an issue in the over-all scheme of the future of ham radio so I agree w/KB1IUB.
One could argue the "equipment did it" much like the gun-registration crowd mentality but the flood of old 23 channel CBs and such ended up in the hands of many of these S.E Asian taxi drivers, etc. and there'll always be a supply of black-market whatever be it smokes, drugs, or radios. On one hand, look @ it from the point-of-view of these guys in these backwaters, who's gonna stop 'em, a ham license is $25/yr., telephone service is expensive, and communicating via radio is actually helping their economy by helping to get things done. Understand, I'm not advocating their actions but removing the incentive for these guys to break int'l. regs is the key along with the enforcement of same. Remember back in the 70s even the almighty and powerful FCC gave up on licensing the CBers (after LBJs $25.00/licensing fee)? Recall too that was shortly after the folly of the "incentive licensing" program the FCC instituted back in '68 (who proposed that idea anyway)?
Rick
www.wh0ai.net
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RE: The Real Threat
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by WA9SVD on November 1, 2003
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Scott,
Some people DO care. Here in Southern California, there are some hang glider pilots that use FM on the low end of 2M, around 144.120 MHz. (And I'm sure they aren't using "low power" on their H-T's)
Whether licensed or not, (probably not) they don't identify. It really tears up the weak signal portion of the band. So should they be reported? SURE. And if they can afford a hang glider, they can afford to get a GMRS (or whatever is appropriate) license and type approved equipment.
The attitude that "it's only low power" or "it's not hurting anything" is a poor attitude indeed.
If that's an acceptable attitude, where do you draw the line? 101 mW? 1 Watt? 100 watts? 2KW on the CW portion of 10M? Why even have Amateur Licenses at all if we are to accept illegal/unlicensed operators?
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KE6I on November 1, 2003
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>Well, here lately the "ol'suckbag" as those in the
>group have come to call him
This kind of namecalling doesn't help your credibility. It's not funny either.
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KE2IV on November 1, 2003
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OLDFART13 says:
"Aluminum frame, carbon fiber fork es seatpost, dura-ace 9speed, HED wheels, and no pack pedaling. You gotta love Lance for taking on the world and winning in france especially after beating cancer."
Dear OLDFART13,
Hey, never knew about CF seatposts. May make my "ancient Cannodale" a bit easier on the butt (even with the OT Brooks saddle which is itself a hemmroid inducer)!
Ditto using one on my late model one otherwise set up like your bike and does have a CF fork.
Thanks for info.
As for 'Lance winning in France' (again and again, BTW) why not? And please don't ask him to lead the Freedom Fries parade.
HE LIVES IN FRANCE!!!! Southern France to be more specific. He actually LIKES the French.
Besides, duh, his life and livliehood revolve around the Euro bicycling circuit. You gotta be where the job is! He'd starve trying to make a living at bicycle racing here.
While I imagine he retains a residence in Texas;
I'm not sure, but believe he may by now have dual citizenship. I know he's raising kids "over there".
Oh the horror to the black helicopter crowd - probably another reason they'll be trying to run down us spandex-clad cyclists!
George,
KE2IV
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by KC5NYJ on November 1, 2003
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Just think...
Say for example, you hear one of the hang-glider guys using the ham frequency. You get on there and call him on it, maybe try to mess his communications up. If he crashes he can blame you for interrupting emergency communications. You will be sued and lose.
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RE: Lance "Illegal" OR KF6MHQ?
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by W3DCG on November 1, 2003
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Yeah, we should all just go now, and get legally on our radios and have some fun.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by WILLY on November 2, 2003
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"
by KC8QMU on November 1, 2003
WILLY,
This is known because after he was caught in the process, "
This is circular.
My question was, how did you identify him in the first place - which is tantamount to 'catching' him.
Now you've said you identified him by catching him.
If you want me to ask you, how did you catch him - with certainty that you got the right person - then ok. How did you catch him?
"
the started coming on the frequencies and attempted to play nice. Some of the guys are willing to play with him, others aren't.
Besides, check out his signature. /SB
Guess what that means! "
I wouldn't know. Please tell us.
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RE: A Real Threat?
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by K7IHC on November 2, 2003
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2m *freebanding* by hang glider/paragliders
Has this been a genuine cause of interference with licensed amateur operatons?
A friend of mine who used to paraglide (a nearly-permanently disabling accident made him sell all his equip) showed me his radio one day. It was an older Yaesu 2m HT (something like an FT-411 or older) that he said all of the other para/hang glider people had. I mentioned to him that it wasn't legal to operate on the 2m band without an amateur license. He got it from another glider person, and didn't really know it was not legal to use without a license. He also told me HRO is a popular source for HTs and accessories for the hang/para glider crowd.
So, should we hams actively report and document the unlawful use of the 2m band by these recreationalists?
I haven't had them interfere with my comms on 2m, but the basic principle of using radio spectrum that they're not entitled to *is* an issue, just like the 10m *freebanders*.
I don't buy the earlier statement that you could be held liable if you interfered with their *illegal* communications and one of them subsequently crashed. The usual glider comms on 2m consists of (from what I understand) air-to-air chatting and info to the *ground crews* for landing site info.
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RE: A Real Threat?
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by W3DCG on November 2, 2003
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Why not turn the Hang/Paragliders ON-to ham radio? Instead of this persecuting attitude. Are they really that much of a bother to anyone here?
On the one hand we seem to worry and complain that we need to drop code requirements because of dying numbers, and yet when we see these free-wheeling, probably very cool people who would likely gravitate toward the growing QRP group of Mountain Ops, and whack-O but certainly noteworthy group of Amateur radio sky-diving, QRP enthusiasts- Imagine, blipping out a few QSOs while suspended under a parachute canopy using a K-1 on your way back to terra-firma...
8-land Bob now living around Knoxville, TN does this.
Anyway, maybe they are such thrill seekers that they can't possibly find interest (not enough adrenaline) in even QRP portable or say, para-gliding CW QRP Airborn Mobile- but I think some might actually think THAT challenging enough they might actually bite, just because it's there, and a challenge.
But no one seems to be presenting this to them- instead the hams that know seem to want to persecute and then prosecute them.
Perhaps, they are just doing it the way it's always been done in this fringe sport. Apparently from info gleaned by posts on this thread, they go to HRO, and as newbie hangliding hobbiests come into the fold, this ham HT stuff is just part of it.
Maybe FRS or whatever it's called- you know those even smaller than HT walkie talkies that sort of blip a ring tone, like an "over" tone when you let go of the transmit button-- maybe those weren't around when they started this tradition of using ham HT's. It has simply been passed down, from Glider Elmers.
I'm thinking, I'd rather have a smaller walkie-talkie that goes bllleeeeep when I let go of the PTT.
They are less expensive, work just as good, simpler- and so why would these guys not be using those instead? Maybe they don't know. I'd rather be fumbling around with the least amount of controls if I'm flying around in the sky, hanging by a few threads.
Unless I was doing that, someone decided to turn me on to Amateur radio, I got interested, and decided to incorporate that into the previous hobby, by getting a cool HF QRP radio, trailing a resonant end-fed wire, getting a license, learning CW just because it's cool, and making two great hobbies even better, certainly raising the coolness factor of either hobby exponentially.
Or else, we could simply form a mob and go on a witch hunt.
Rush (Canadian Rock Band) wrote a song, called precisely that- Witch Hunt- It's on their Moving Pictures LP/CD.
Yeah! Let's make a band- MOB HAMS.
***** With the persecution mentality appearing in some places here, I would expect these hang-gliding, harmless people, to adopt a similar NEGATIVE attitude about the wonderful hobby that ham radio truly is. Now days, if ham radio is not a positive- enhancing influence, then we've all gone blind, and lost sight of what ham radio should be. *****
W3DCG,
signing clear of here.
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Selective Enforcement
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by W5HTW on November 2, 2003
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OK. Let's let the hang gliders skate on this one. No biggie. After all, what's the big deal? Just some folks illegally on the ham bands.
OK. Let's go after Lance Armstrong. Yes, biggie. His credit card radio is driving us all insane. Ah, more folks illegaly on the ham bands.
OK. Let's go after the CBers on ham bands. Hmmmm. More folks illegally on the ham bands.
Hey, let's rewrite the rules. If we "like" the dude or dudette, it's OK for that person to operate illegally on the ham bands. If we ENVY the person, a la Armstrong, it isn't OK.
This whole thread is asinine. Either it's illegal or it isn't. Unless, of course, it's a national hero, or Uncle George, or Sister Susie, or just some happy fliers with 2 meter HTs.
I'd suggest applying logic, but logic seems to be the one thing today's hams have the least of.
Yeah, I'm outta here, too.
Ed
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RE: Selective Enforcement
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by W3DCG on November 2, 2003
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It's not just about young cool people.
Met a guy at a hamfest yesterday, the Stone Mt. hamfest. He sells refurbished (perhaps as is used is more accurate) oscilliscopes in a tent.
He came here from Spain many years ago, spoke zero, nada, zip, zilch English.
The people here in Georgia helped him at every turn.
He has been into gliding- the big ones, that get towed up by a Piper Cub or equivalent.
But lately he and his son have been trying ultra-light gliding- I think that must be hang-gliding.
Maybe it is with a motor.
Not sure.
This gentleman is over 60.
The sparkle in his son's eye, glitters brightly at QRP displays, and meetings so I have heard.
In this case, this is an over 60 year old gentleman with his son, Ham radio entered their lives first, and then next gliding, and now hang-gliding, or ultra-light flying.
It could happen the other way around.
Technically, many CBers operate illigally, who goes through the hassle of actually applying for a license. Few I would bet.
How many of these CBers properly ID? Another breech in rules and legality. How many follow the distance rules, I vaguely remember some limited distance rule, but back then I was about 7 I could be remembering a rumor. How much do these CBers really harm anyone on 11 meters?
And finally, how many of these CBers wanted more, and became lawful, bonifide, fair to excellent Amateur radio operators.
I'll concede if the FCC has the time and resources these fly by the seat of their pantsers need a slap on the wrist and nominal fine.
My hope, would be that whatever ham is in actual contact with these people, gets to them first, sells them on the virtues of ham radio, some of them go for it, and we can all get back to being the friendly, nice, supportive people we all really are when it comes to ham radio.
Really now, di di di dah di dah. 73!
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RE: Selective Enforcement
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by RF_BURNS on November 2, 2003
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Did some checking. Lance IS a licensed amateur. He maintains homes in both California AND Texas. His primary legal residence is in California - as his ticket indicates.
License Info: http://www.qrz.com/detail/KF6MHQ
I'm embarassed for those of you so quick to rant & rave before actually checking things out.
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The Real Threat
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by KE4ZHN on November 2, 2003
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I seriously doubt Mr. Armstrong is dumb enough to operate his HT illegally in any country. I see by some posts he is in fact a licensed amateur so the original article has no basis. After all the man has been through, the last thing he needs is some wanna be cop examining him under the microscope to verify if hes legal or not. Besides, if hes in France using the radio, its out of FCC jurisdiction so who cares what he does there? Leave the guy alone for crying out loud.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by K0XU on November 2, 2003
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Just some thoughts:
He may be using a DJ-C5T on the bike, but who is he talking to? I bet they are running more than 300mW. Alinco also used to make a FRS radio about the same size. Maybe that would be more appropriate.
No, Lance does not live in France, he lives in New Mexico. And trains in the US (among other places) and races in many countries (including the US).
Do they even think about licensing their radio equipment? Probably not. Do others do it? You bet. Is it legal in any of the countries they race in? Probably not. Will they ever get caught? Not if everybody keeps quiet. What will happen if they do get caught? They will be told to not do it anymore.
As for those that think that this may be a good way to get new people into amateur radio. Think about it, the radio is just because they want to talk while biking, hang-gliding, etc. If they wanted a radio hobby they would look for one. They just want a cheap way to talk.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC5NYJ on November 2, 2003
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Somebody.... PLEEEAASSSE! Tell me where I can hear these "CBers On The Ham Bands". I've read so much about them. It seems they are everywhere, but I've yet to hear one. Can somebody help me out? I've plenty of receiving gear here and all I need is a push in the direction of the proper ham band to catch a transmission from these "CBers On The Ham Bands".
Ok, BTW, along the lines of Lance and his Incredibly Modified DJ-C5. Someone mentioned he probably only wanted "cheap communications". Well, kids, FRS radios with VOX come in all shapes and sizes, with all the privacy DCS and CTCSS functionality, and even some with built-in GPS, all for less or the same price as an Alinco HT.
I'm still puzzled. Why would somebody choose to implement a radio which has no integrated VOX, is fragile at best(have you seen the antenna connector?), uses an integrated rechargeable battery, and can't possibly, as a cheap miniature dual-band rig, be as immune to interference, images, intermod, etc. as even a basic $30 Motorola FRS/GMRS? Who knows? There must be some reason other than the cool factor? Or not. If Lance is indeed a ham, then he likely shares our love of gadgetry. Whatever the case, if Lance is a licensed ham, then let's remember in order for two-way communications to take place legally, the party(ies) with which he communicates must also be licensed. Who is this other person(s)?
BTW, I'd like to see this information confirming Lance maintains residences in California AND Texas and was licensed in Cali. I know his wife has family in Cali and he was married there. I'm not disputing, but I looked for this info on the web for about an hour and found nothing to verify that info. Just curious.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KE6I on November 2, 2003
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>Somebody.... PLEEEAASSSE! Tell me where I can hear
>these "CBers On The Ham Bands". I've read so much
>about them. It seems they are everywhere, but I've
>yet to hear one. Can somebody help me out?
Agree. I haven't heard the 'CBers on ham bands' either. Really, I barely hear any CBers on CB these days, except when the band is open I hear people talking in Spanish. Hmm, how do you say "10-4 good buddy" in Spanish?
Most of the problems I've heard, and I think this is way overblown, are from licensed hams with a little too much of the drinkie-poo, or guys engaged in fueds and name calling that escalate into jamming.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on November 2, 2003
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“Agree. I haven't heard the 'CBers on ham bands' either..”
Something is dramatically wrong if you’ve been licensed from at least 97 and haven’t heard tons of illegals on ten meters. ‘Couse, if you’ve never on ten, it makes sense.
Just ask the VK and ZL hams how much interference they get from all of the illegals in Asia.
Bob
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RE: The Real Threat
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on November 2, 2003
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“Agree. I haven't heard the 'CBers on ham bands' either..”
Something is dramatically wrong if you’ve been licensed from at least 97 and haven’t heard tons of illegals on ten meters. ‘Couse, if you’ve never on ten, it makes sense.
Just ask the VK and ZL hams how much interference they get from all of the illegals in Asia.
Bob
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RE: The Real Threat
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by OLDFART13 on November 2, 2003
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If you work 10 meter RTTY you have heard the CBers. 28.085AM is a big hang out of thiers.
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RE: The Real Threat
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by W3DCG on November 3, 2003
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How does one apply for a license on equipment?
I want some of those licenses too!
:P
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RE: The Real Threat
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by K2LES on November 3, 2003
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Are you clowns for real? Do you honestly think the FCC is going to care one iota about someone running 300 mw on 70cm? The most they'll do is send a letter to the offending person (if they can find 'em) and that'll be the end of the matter.
You guys and the rules. What do you do in your spare time? Sit on the side of the road and turn in everyone doing >1 MPH over the speed limit to the police? Are you the type of person who'll beat the shit out of your kid because he came home 1 minute late past curfew? Are you going to file for divorce because your wife burned dinner? Are you so goddamned inflexible and intolerant that the slightest deviation from the "standard" will make you run out with an assault rifle and start firing into a crowd to teach them a lesson about the "rules"??
Get real. You people are getting your blood pressure up because of something you read on the Popular Science magazine website. For all you know the magazine may have made an error about the model radio being used.
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The Real Threat
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by DIABLO666 on November 3, 2003
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Do you guys ever do anything except bitch all the time?? It really gets boring to read this sort of crap day in and day out. It's no wonder our hobby is in such a shambles. Fighting between ourselves never got anyone anywhere. If you have problem with Lance write him a letter. If you think he is operating illegal file a formal complaint with Riley. It does little to no good at all to air all our dirty laundry publicly. " people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones at each other"
peace
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RE: The Real Threat
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by WA9SVD on November 3, 2003
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I don't think anybody is seeking to have Lance Armstrong or his team drawn and quartered, boiled in oil, or any such draconian punishment. On the other hand, if he and his team ae using Amateur Radio inappropriately, then the issue should be addressed. IN THE COUNTRY where a violation exists.
The real issue, (IMHO) is (or has become) not specifically Mr. Armstrong, or even hang gliders, but the illegal use of Amateur frequencies, whether by licensed or unlicensed operators.
Some say "what's the harm" in hang gliders using 300 mW. on 2M? What's the harm. They are not hurting anyone. Not anyone but the weak signal VHF operators. But of course, HF operators have no interest is that, so "there's no harm." But let illegal operators encroach on 10M, and suddenly, the HF operators are demanding lynch mobs ala Dr. Frankenstein.
What's the harm? If I only operated VHF FM, I'd say the same thing. What's the harm in some illegal operators on 10 M? It's a big band. We can tolerate it.
The real point is, both situations involve illegal operations on Amateur Frequencies. If we tolerate it on one band, eventually the case could be made that since we didn't complain it's OK for unlicensed operators to use our frequencies on any of the bands.
The penalties (at least for a first offense) should fit the crime. Just as going a couple of miles over the speed limit might warrant a warning, so minor violations warrant a warning from the FCC that a violation has occurred. But blatant and/or repeated violations should not be tolerated.
(And I don't think there is such a thing as a "CB" operator on 10 Meters. They are illegally operating unlicensed operators. CB does not exist on 10 Meters. Don't call them "CB" operators. Call them unlicensed/illegal and be through with it. CB has nothing to do with it.) IMHO, of course.
BEst Regards to all.
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The Real Threat
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by HAMDUDE on November 3, 2003
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You tell em LES! I couldnt agree more! What a bunch of whining, sniveling bull**it over some poor guy who barely escaped death due to cancer over such trivial drivel such as this! Not only that, did anyone bother to actually verify IF in fact the man has done anything illegal before flogging him on this forum?
Its a good thing that real law enforcement isnt so picky about enforcing rules because if it was we ALL would be in prison! There isnt a person alive who hasnt broken the law knowingly or unknowingly among us. And those who proclaim as much are flat out liars!
Id bet that many of these "heros" who seem willing to hang Lance spent a good many years pirating on CB, or driving 15mph over the limit everyday or who knows what? These are the same types who go to church every sunday and proclaim how righteous they are. Hypocrites!
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The Real Threat
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by WU1T on November 3, 2003
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YAWN. Seriously, YAWN. The amount of obsessing over illegal operation by people on eHam is seriously out of proportion with reality. As many people have pointed out, the operation of Armstrong's radio may very well be legal in the countries he uses it. But as usual, hams can't see the "big picture" and are still stuck in the "wanna-be" policeman mentality that drives them to obsess over what everyone ELSE is doing with a radio. If it's that big of a deal to you, www.fcc.gov surely has an Employment link. I'm sure your enthusiasm would be greatly appreciated over there!
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KA2UUP on November 3, 2003
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Since we are in politically correct times, I want to say that the term "illegal operators" is inappropriate. From now on we should refer to illegal operators as "undocumented operators." HI HI!!!
73 DE Bert @ KA2UUP
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC5NYJ on November 3, 2003
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Wow.... The upper HF bands were open pretty well this past weekend so I took the 'ol R-5000 for a spin around 10m to verify it was indeed open. I got 10-20 over S9 from two repeaters on 29.620, so I dropped her back down to 28.065 and started tuning up. Nothing. A couple of CW ops, and a guy in Spanish. No "CBers on the 10m band". I checked back quite often while I was flipping around looking for BBC relays on other bands, and listening to 6m for an opening, and never once heard a "CBer on the Ham Bands". There were some more Spanish speakers around 4pm on 28.150, and a snooty sounding guy on 29.347, but I heard them ID and looked 'em up. At least their calls were valid. Who knows? They may have been "CBers on the Ham Bands".
All in all, I'd say "CBers on the Ham Bands" are a sneaky bunch, what with being able to cause all that trouble on RTTY without me even noticing their signal. Maybe they were at the noise floor on PSK31. Damn them. I'll catch them some day.......
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by NE1Z on November 3, 2003
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Enthusiasm can't replace qualifications.
Lacking them will get you nowhere.
You won't be alone.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by AD6WL on November 4, 2003
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This is taken from 1 month of spots. Info from DX-SUMMIT Database:
GB7DXS 24947.0 CBERS USB 1650 01 Jan 2003
W8LR-@ 28613.0 CBERS good grief 0000 09 Feb 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 K7PIG harrasing cbers 2210 02 Jan 2003
VE1CZ-@ 28535.0 CBERS the new cb band!!!!! 2243 02 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 WD5EDR over cbers 2004 03 Jan 2003
XE2AC 28538.0 N1TRDR CBers on AM K2047 03 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 K7PIG on cb ch 19up2 2252 06 Jan 2003
W8LR-@ 28613.0 CBERS good grief 0000 09 Feb 2003
K1TTT 28533.7 WD5EDR cw trying to qrm cbers 1735 09 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 K7PIG harrassing cbers from az 1833 09 Jan 2003
VE1CZ 28535.0 K7PIG help him harrass the cb, 2208 09 Jan 2003
KC5QFE-@ 28269.0 CBERS CBers w/music 2305 09 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 K7KER mt over cb intruders K2202 10 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28087.0 AD6WL rtty over cb qrm K1833 11 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28535.0 WD5EDR cw over cbers 1856 13 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28534.6 K7KER mt over cb qrm K1925 13 Jan 2003
INF0 28435.0 BUBBACB Where is FCC's Riley H.? 1931 14 Jan 2003
OK1HH 28196.0 LU4JJ (QRM ( CB pirates) 1353 18 Jan 2003
K1TTT 28534.0 F6KCP over cb qrm, cq w6/w7 1722 20 Jan 2003
JL1UXH 28025.0 ST2X HVY CB QRM in JA.... 0830 25 Jan 2003
OE3BCA 28000.0 U/FMSTN strong CB stn QRM on band. UA0815 27 Jan 2003
K8LJQ 28001.5 T31MY QRM BY CB SSB QSO 2222 28 Jan 2003
IS0AGY 28313.0 INTRUDER CB 1316 30 Jan 2003
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by K2LES on November 4, 2003
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Oh wow. 22 whopping incidents of CB'ers on the 10m band. Yawn.
What next? Policing the GMRS bands to turn in all the people who bought FRS/GMRS radios and didn't get a license yet? Tracking down MURS users to make sure they're not running over 2 watts?
Face it. There's always going to be someone running a radio on a band they're not supposed to be and at a power level they're not authorized at.
Hey guess what? I run my Yaesu FT8100 rig on FRS - not type accepted and way overpower. Ditto with MURS. I also use it for out of band TX (where I'm authorized to) but it's not type accepted. Oh, and before I got my license - I kerchunked a few repeaters with my HT. Hey - I even screwed around with a McDonald's drive-thru with a programmable commercial rig and messed with customers. My Alinco HT picks up cell phones. I've even listened to a few cordless convo's lately. Back in my CB days, I peaked my radio and the antenna was likely a bit overheight as well. I've used the VHF business frequencies without a license before they were designated as MURS. I've let my other unlicensed half use my 2m HT in one car so I can talk to her in my car on my mobile. I thought about ways of modifying my FRS radios.
Yes - I've committed all of these "crimes" against radio.
So tell me, what are you going to do about it? Oh? Don't have a tape or any other proof? Too bad.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by AD6WL on November 4, 2003
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>>>”Oh wow. 22 whopping incidents of CB'ers on the 10m band. Yawn.”<<<
Yes, that is 23 spots in a one-month period of a quick 5-minute check. I could fill this whole page if I had any desire to dig deeper. I’m sure there are many cases that are not spotted on the cluster also. My only purpose of that post is to show that there are a lot of illegal operators on 10 and 12 meter. Just because when someone happens to tune around the band and doesn’t hear them doesn’t mean that they are not there at other times. As for the rest of your post I won’t even waste my time since what you posted speaks for itself.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by KA3RFE on November 4, 2003
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"What are you going to do about it?"
Well, considering you were nice enough to confess to numerous violations in many bands, a copy of your post sent to the FCC might be enough to interest them toinspect your station - something they have the right to do at any time - unannouced. And they could seize all of your equipment, yank your license, and give you a hefty fine. They have your own words to go on, after all, and they may not need any other evidence.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by WT0A on November 4, 2003
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Well, Les doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. And a cat lover to boot.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by KB9YZL on November 4, 2003
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Seen in a previous post:
>>>>”…………a copy of your post sent to the FCC might be enough to interest them to inspect your station - something they have the right to do at any time - unannouced. And they could seize all of your equipment, yank your license, and give you a hefty fine. They have your own words to go on, after all, and they may not need any other evidence.”<<<<
As I stated much earlier in this thread, I am firmly in favor of pursuing people who operate without proper license or authorization. I also believe that in our society, the punishment should be appropriate to the crime.
The mental image of the FCC swaggering around, acting like the B.A.T.F. back in their heyday, is disturbing. Call me old fashioned, but I still believe in constitutionally guaranteed things like “Protection Against Unwarranted Search and Seizure” , and “Due Process”.
Let’s face it……99.9% of the “Illegal Use” violations do not merit anything more than a Lawyer’s Letter. The only circumstance I can think of that would require an actual visit by Enforcement Personnel would be a case where there was intentional interference with Emergency Service Frequencies.
Our American Society is maintained by a fabric of laws. This is the way our Government was constructed, and history has shown it to work fairly well. History has also shown that we have made it work without resorting to the use of Police State Tactics.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by K2LES on November 4, 2003
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>> Well, Les doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. And a cat lover to boot.
I'm a lot smarter than you think pal.
Besides, do you really think the FCC is going to react on a complaint based on what someone said on a message board on the internet where there is no real proof that the person on the message board is actually legit??
There needs to be some credibility to one's complaint for the FCC to take any action.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by WILLY on November 5, 2003
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"
by KB9YZL on November 4, 2003
---
As I stated much earlier in this thread, I am firmly in favor of pursuing people who operate without proper license or authorization. I also believe that in our society, the punishment should be appropriate to the crime. "
Agreed
"
---
Let’s face it……99.9% of the “Illegal Use” violations do not merit anything more than a Lawyer’s Letter."
Agreeed - hopefully.
Then follow up on that letter, to be sure the offending actions ceased. If not, then pursue it. This could likely be necessary on a small percentage of the letters, as the word would get around that the letters have teeth.
"
The only circumstance I can think of that would require an actual visit by Enforcement Personnel would be a case where there was intentional interference with Emergency Service Frequencies. "
There could be others, but this makes sense.
"
Our American Society is maintained by a fabric of laws. This is the way our Government was constructed, and history has shown it to work fairly well. History has also shown that we have made it work without resorting to the use of Police State Tactics. "
Agreed
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by WILLY on November 5, 2003
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"
by K2LES on November 4, 2003
---
Yes - I've committed all of these "crimes" against radio.
So tell me, what are you going to do about it? Oh? Don't have a tape or any other proof? Too bad. "
Some years ago, there were thousands of people with the same poor attitude.
The FCC finally gave up, and let them have their way.
They have their own band, and there are thousands that operate there even today.
You should go operate there, as you'd probably like it more - operating with like minded users. On the ham bands, your attitude won't be appreciated.
It is located around 27Mhz. I'm sure you can find it.
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by WILLY on November 5, 2003
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"
by WT0A on November 4, 2003
Well, Les doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. And a cat lover to boot. "
And he gets drunk
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by WILLY on November 5, 2003
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"
by K2LES on November 4, 2003
>> Well, Les doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. And a cat lover to boot.
I'm a lot smarter than you think pal.
Besides, do you really think the FCC is going to react on a complaint based on what someone said on a message board on the internet where there is no real proof that the person on the message board is actually legit??
There needs to be some credibility to one's complaint for the FCC to take any action. "
So you either intentionally don't tell the truth ( a liar ) or you lack respect for radio rules and regulations and are a scofflaw.
Which is it?
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RE: The Real Threat is WannaBes
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by KE2IV on November 6, 2003
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And at the end of it all: who cares?
Gosh, a whole of a lot of qudaddffle about a whole lot of nothing.
Does anyone here really think the rest of the planet really give a rat's fart about anything said here?
If these folks are representative of HR - it's dead!
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RE: The Real Threat
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by KC0LTD on November 7, 2003
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Why not just send Mr. Riley a message with all these NON LEGAL makers.
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RE: The Real Threat? I see potential Ham.
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by KF4OSS on July 2, 2004
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[QUOTE]The real threat is US hams thinking the world revolves around ham radio & US rules about it.
Face it, he could go to Nextel & no one would hear him. Then you would cry "he can't drive & talk on his cell phone"...
You people need to get over yourselves & this self-importance you feel must be thrust upon everyone.
Who really cares what radios or freqs are used in France?
Jeeves!
Bill/SB[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU! You took the words right out of my mouth.
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