Considering a New Rig?
Martin Ewing (AA6E)
on
December 15, 2003
View comments about this article!
The Icom 746pro, from the spec sheet, seems like the next radio for me. But I have the same problems that a lot of people have -- how to interpret the trouble reports on eHam.net, etc.? Here is how I am approaching it, and the advice I will have for Santa.
Consider:
1. Can I afford the risk? What if it's a lemon? A warranty helps, but at best there is a hassle to get service, and at worst there might be a design flaw that they can't fix. There is a (hopefully small) chance that you might have to walk away from the experience and declare a dead loss. So, don't invest your life savings. It's like the stock market; don't bet more than you can afford to lose. The less expensive mid-range rigs today have a lot of capability. Maybe they are a better choice?
2. Some good products get a bad wrap, because of bad experiences of a few customers. This gets to be a problem if the vendor does not handle them correctly. They have to be candid with the community and they have to be seen to bend over backwards to make sure the customers are happy -- replacing lemons, giving priority service, etc. You'd like Icom to give us their actual warranty repair statistics, but don't hold your breath. They could give a better warranty on the "drivetrain" for example.
3. Ham radio is a small market, especially compared to consumer electronics. New products come out slowly. A lot of current products have "older" technology. You'll have "buyer's remorse" if the next generation happens to come out the week after you buy your "dream" rig. It's almost like buying a computer.
4. On the other hand, don't be too eager to get the new technology. New rigs are really complicated, using proprietary technology (processors, firmware) and having few "user serviceable" parts. You may be completely dependent on the vendor's service department for spare parts. Will they be there 10 years down the line? I appreciate my non-digital Kenwood TS-520S more and more!
New technology may not be more flexible. How many rigs can you get that will easily handle 60-meters or PSK-31? How many new modes & frequencies are around the corner? When will there be a software-defined radio product with open user interfaces, but that still has a traditional radio look & feel? We see glimmers in QEX.
5. It's hard to get good buyer's information on ham products. There is no "Consumer Reports" where products get tested for durability, safety, and repair record, etc. Ham magazines do their reviews, but they usually are looking at a single unit.
6. It boils down to cost. By historic standards, today's equipment is cheap. The cost of a Collins S-line station in 1960 was listed at about $2,600. That would be $16,000 today. On the other hand, some S-line rigs are still running after 40 years. The practical lifetime of modern rigs has to be shorter, because of parts obsolescence, market developments, etc. That's "depreciation cost". You're likely to go to the well for your next rig sooner than you would have in 1960.
So this is how I think about it. I'm going ahead to ask Santa for something new, but with eyes open. If you dither too much making a decision, you lose out on fun.
-Martin, AA6E
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Considering a New Rig?
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by N1JAO on December 15, 2003
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Yes, it is worth the risk...buy buy buy! The smell and feel of a new rig can't be beat. I hope you get what you want , and it lasts a long time.
Robert
N1JAO
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by LNXAUTHOR on December 15, 2003
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- i found the easy solution: buy one of every existing model!
just kidding!
- seriously though, many of the $1200+ rigs have more features than i'll ever use... i hope this thread doesn't devolve into a brand war, but my 'high-end' base rig really isn't that high end; i believe most of my considerations could apply to anyone's needs:
1. the rig has been on the market for a while
2. it has a good reputation
3. it is well-constructed (open one up and you'll know what i mean)
4. it was designed by a ham for hams (you can browse to the designer's home page; how many rigs from other manufacturers offer that kind of unique insight or information?)
5. it has an ergonomic design that suits my operating style (everything i need is available from a front panel button, with no need to delve into menuing)
6. its computer control is of an 'open' design, making it easy to interface with any computer operating system (works well with Linux)
7. it was recommended by my Elmer
8. and last, its bang-for-buck ratio was high (less than $1000)
guess which rig i'm talking about?
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Considering a New Rig?
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by KD7EFQ on December 15, 2003
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Well, if it was designed and assembled here in the U.S.A. It's one of the two best radios available today. I wish they could say they used all American parts though. Oh well....:-) 73.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by DL9FCC on December 15, 2003
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i will have to say after some time that most of the problem [there is no problem with ic 7400 ic 746pro ] is the poor antenna some use like poor g5rv and so on
there is as well a fixed for this problem
and if you look on how many icom sold
and how many people have problem it is nothing at all
before buying good radio see if you can improve your i will have to say after some time that most of the problem [there is no problem with ic 7400 ic 746pro ] is the poor antenna some use like poor g5rv and so on
there is as well a fixed for this problem
and if you look on how many icom sold
and how many people have problem it is nothing at all
before buying good radio see if you can improve your
antenna [i can say that i look at it like this
good antenna is like good high road or motor way
and the car is the best out here but if the road have full of stone your car ill be damage, so this is how i look at it no need to but good radio if the antenna is poor there is a nice drake swan and so on tat can do very good job as well
a good antenna will give you free problem as well ck
and see if there is no RF problem as well this radio are very sensitive for RF they are not like the old tube that you can tx what ever the antenna is the ic 746pro is a very fine radio as well it have late
dsp chip in it so yes it is a good buy, but some people like t wait
so i ask why to wait life are to short for this
in radio industry today there all ways be a new product and better there is no end for this
we all live in high tech world
MARRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR
vy 73
Elan DL9FCC
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by W1RFI on December 15, 2003
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The information on the ARRL TIS web page on "Buying a Rig" may be of help.
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/rigbuy.html
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KG6AMW on December 15, 2003
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I never buyer first or even second year new model rigs. They always end up with oddball issues like antenna tuner problems, software issues or missing diodes to protect receiver front ends. One thing about designing and building rigs, you can get it 99.9% right and have a failure on your hands. Wait awhile, and then buy.
KG6AMW
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by K2ACX on December 15, 2003
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<<guess which rig i'm talking about? >>
Is it a Kenwood 570?
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Considering a New Rig?
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by KD7EFQ on December 15, 2003
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I hate to be the party pooper here but something to be aware of with the IC 746 pro is there was a design problem in the final PA section, and I don't know if it has been fixed by Icom or not. But you can look back in the reviews here, and in one of the discussion topics right here on E- Ham. Someone was looking for people who had this problem to contact him as he wasn't getting any satisfaction and was planning to apply a lemon law or something to his purchase. This is not to say the IC-746 YOU purchase won't be fine, but just something to be aware of. 73.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by W8JI on December 15, 2003
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For some reason it isn't considered fashionable to be honest about new radio performance. As an example every radio, no matter how poor, seems to get a "5" in E-Ham reviews. Give it less and the reviewer gets to suffer the wrath of the masses. I see reviews where people return radios for unacceptable performance, and they still give the radio a 4 or 5!!!
Factually radios are NOT getting better. There are clear examples of this.
CW design is poor. One popular manufacturer (who otherwise builds reasonable radios) sells radios that click excessively on CW, occupying more BW than legally allowed. It would cost the manufacturer pennies to correct this, but they don't. Why not?
Many radios repeat simple inexpensive engineering mistakes. My favorite radio was almost useless when strong signals got very close in frequency. The reason? The left a FET in the noise blanker hanging on an IF line with full gain even when the NB is OFF. It would cost less than pennies to fix this, all they needed to do was reroute a wire. Instead of fixing it, they repeat the same mistake year after year and even across model changes. Why don’t they fix it?
Look at the QST SSB IM performance tests of transceivers. Many of them have bands where the transmitter is just barely better than class C performance. Using the very generous ARRL measurement method of dB below PEP, which inflates performance 6dB over the test Eimac and others have used, radios are only in the high 20’s to mid 30’s for IM in the transmitter. Translate that to commercial standards by removing 6dB, and they are in the low to mid 20’s; only several dB better than class C for some radios. Why not improve IM?
Hi-fi audio fanatics claim they have “brick wall “ bandwidth, but overlook the fact some of their favorite radios have some of the worse IM performance, meaning all those rich tones increase the adjacent channel splatter despite the “brick wall” DSP transmitter filtering. Then they wonder why people complain, and blame the receiver!
We actually need more critical tests and more critical reviews. Radios SHOULD be getting better, but they are not. They have 10,000 DSP filters, all of which offer LESS performance for off-frequency rejection of strong signals. They have brick-wall transmitter filters, many of which are followed by crummy amplifiers that add bandwidth.
About ten years ago I started buying and trying every top of the line or better radio that came out, and to date I haven’t found any radio that is a substantial improvement over my old radio. Some of the new radios get booted out the first day or two because of dirty transmitters. One top of the line import radio transmitted spurious signals on two frequencies at once.
The blame for all this falls on US. We are the problem. We accept poor performance as long as it comes in a nice package with 10,000 useless features. We consider anyone who is critical of crappy radios a “problem”, and we consider people like OO’s who give critical reports “cops”. Maybe it’s time to ask for performance, not excuses.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by W3ULS on December 15, 2003
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Nice article on a subject close to my heart. My choices would depend on what use to which the transceivers would be put.
For phone, the IC-746PRO IMHO is unbeatable in a cost/benefit calculus, even with the PA failure problems. The engineering and construction are so sophisticated as to beggar belief in a rig priced at $1,300 new. (I have a review on this web site.)
For CW--don't laugh--my choice is leaning toward a Ten-Tec Argonaut V. It has beautiful CW tone, swift, silent QSK, and a wonderful IF/DSP filter setup that lets you choose umpty-ump bandwidths from 200 Hz on up with a turn of a "Multi" knob. Two good reviews--in CQ and QST--tell all about this neat rig, which provides for me a very satisfying operating experience. And you give up only 1 S-unit by having 20 as opposed to 100 watts to play with.
The ARRL Lab's measurements of the Argo came in with rather modest results regarding BDR, IMD DR and TOI. All I can say is that in strong-signal environments the Argo held its own against an FT-920 and an OMNI VI.
God, this stuff is fun!
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Considering a New Rig?
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by N8FVJ on December 15, 2003
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I also like the 'wait a year or two' when the radio is an expensive purchase, however at times I can't resist that purchase much earlier.
As for older used radios with digital displays & no service parts available, there is a risk. The Ten Tec products seem to be the exception here. The older analog radios such as the TS-520S are ultra reliable in this regard (non digital). Of course, the TS-520S just may be the most reliable HF transceiver ever manufactured. Most do not know this- the TS-820 digital displays issues are for the most part connectors that need cleaning.
As for an early purchase experience, I bought a used (never used) ICOM IC-746PRO from a ham & found out the driver IC issue later. I did not have a failure, however sold the radio with the details known. Lucky I did break even on the adventure.
I took a chance on the problem plagued FT-100D, but waited until the few last production runs were available. I simply marvel at the performance & technology. So far, no problems.
Unless one can afford a risk, the article has good advice for shoppers.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by W9WHE on December 15, 2003
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Three rules that have never failed me:
1) Buy new, but NOT until AFTER that model has been shipping for more than 1 year. By then, the MFR will have all significant bugs - and fixes - identified. Then, if you have a problem, you can have it factory fixed and upgraded under warranty.
2) Never buy a radio near the end of its manufacturing run, unless you plan to sell it off long before parts become a problem.
3) NEVER, EVER buy a radio from a private party without testing it first!
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Considering a New Rig?
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by K8DXX on December 15, 2003
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Regarding rigs in the $1300 - $1700 range, has anyone here considered the TS-200? A lot of them have been sold. Relatively few problems have been reported. After having owned a few Icoms, I'd say fit and finish on the Kenwoods is a tad beter. Receiver performance, although not quite an 'MP is more than acceptable. Feature wise, its hard to beat.
One question I've had about the TS-2000 VS IC 746 PRO has to do with the effectiveness of the 24 bit DSP in the '2000 and the 32 bit in the '746. I have heard preferences go both ways in terms of both band width control and noise reduction. Surprising! I thought the '746/'756 DSP would produce much greater performance.
Were I to buy a new rig today, I'd say that the only one worth the hassle of changing rigs (cost aside) is the Ten Tec Orion. Currently, I own an 'MP, TS 870, TS 2000, FT 817 and IC 706 MKII. At least in terms of the first three, the Orion is really the only new rig, IMHO that offers a truly significant difference in performance. So many of the other medium to high priced rigs are in the same ballpark.
I do agree, there is a lot to be said for just opening the box for the first time on a new rig. How much is that worth to you?
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Considering a New Rig?
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by NA4IT on December 15, 2003
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My suggestion, fo what it's worth...
If you are a new ham or new to HF, buy cheap, used, but working. With the exception of 2M rigs. New ones are about as cheap as used. Get on the air. If you hear something you like, ask about it. If you really like it and are convinced, go to someone's qth that has one and operate for a while. Then if you just can't do without it, buy one!
I have decided on a Yaesu FT-920. Now the question is...
WHO WANTS TO GET ME ONE FOR CHRISTMAS?
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by WB2WIK on December 15, 2003
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Nice article.
Two rigs I purchased without ever using one, and when they were very new to the market and completely unproven, were the Drake TR-7 and the Kenwood TS-850SAT. In both cases, when I picked up the rigs, I was the only one I knew who had each one.
In both cases, I got extremely lucky, as both later earned reputations as proven performers, and about the best rigs the manufacturers ever made.
Buyer's intuition, I guess.
A dozen other rigs have come and gone through my shack since these two, and they're all "gone," while these two remain. Neither has required any service at all, in 26 years and 14 years, respectively. Even the lithium battery in my "replace it after five years" TS-850S is still good, and my standby replacement battery, purchased 9 years ago for when the time came to actually install it, is still in the little package it came in. Wow.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KC8VWM on December 15, 2003
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I am going to take the line on the right on this one.
It is interesting to note the GTO metaphor used.
Todays plastic toy rigs (Yea-Coms ..hihi)simply turn on and off with a plastic or rubber push button. They lack the "look and feel" of these older radios for example:
There is definitely something nice about the smell of heating up 80 pounds of tubes, transformers, and solid steel in your shack. Now this is what I call a "Rig" in every sense of the word.
I always liked the crackling sounds the rigs make when the tube filaments start heating up. I enjoy the smell of the dust burning off the transformers steel case. You not only enjoy the "radio" per se, but you are able to experience it with all 5 of your senses.
I like the "big click" feel you get when you are switching the wafer style selector switches. No chincy one finger PC board micro buttons on these radios! You better use your entire hand and brute force to turn this band selector!!
No more mindless digital tuning required. You actually need to "find" these frequencies by using this innovative and unique tool called ears.
I remember there was a way to determine if you had a good tuner or bad tuner on a radio by doing this simple test. (This test does not work modern day digital display type radios)
Firstly you spin the main BFO and let it go as it spins. If it continues to spin after you let it go then you have a very good tuner. If the BFO stops as soon as you let go of it, then it is not a good BFO.
Obviously, if the BFO had good bearings it would spin freely. The point here is that this is how you would look for a good radio back then. Kinda like kicking the tires before you buy a car. Each radio was in itself unique. Two identical radios each had their own individual characteristics. An s-unit meter was more sensitive on one radio than the other. Receive quality was different. They even had their own tone and audio characteristics. Yet, these were two identical radios built at the same factory.
Today, Yea-Com builds carbon copy radios. Each one is an identical clone of the other. They have no individual characteristics to choose from.
Like my 68 GTO (really), it's not about the car, the performance, or even the year it was manufactured.
Rather, It's about the legend and an era that some will never begin to understand because they were simply not there to experience these senses for themselves.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KC8VWM on December 15, 2003
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How my post for "Classic Rigs" ended up on here in "considering a new rig" is still a great mystery.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by LNXAUTHOR on December 15, 2003
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to K2ACX, who wrote:
>> <<guess which rig i'm talking about? >>
>> Is it a Kenwood 570?
yep! you can view the 570 designer's page here:
http://www11.cds.ne.jp/~torii/eng1.htm
IIRC, he also designed the new Kenwood 100/200W mobile rigs...
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Considering a New Rig?
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by G0GQK on December 15, 2003
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I've been reading the product reports on the Icom 746 series for quite some time, and I am amazed at the large number of purchasers who accept that when they buy a new rig they will have some problems with it.
Amateur trancievers are launched into the market place before they are fully tested, and you, my radio friends, pay to have them put into good working order, sometimes not.You are anguished when you pay the high costs to have the useless boxes of plastic and metal transported across the USA to repair shops, and which you constantly complain about.
The manufacturers know that you like buying the latest models, some of you have three or four rigs sitting in the shack taking up shelf space. If it doesn't function properly out of the box, or gives out within three months, too bad, buy another.
Ask yourself, would your wife accept a new TV which consistently stopped working, in the middle of her favourite soap ? No, she wouldn't. And that is the reason why TV's rarely refuse to work, if they cease to function its usually in the first seven days. They have to work properly or they would be out of the business.
And, never buy a rig at the end of its run ! How would you know the model was to be replaced, the manufacturers don't tell you, do they?
I purchased a used Kenwood TS 430S in 1986, it had been used for 12 months prior to my purchase. It has never once in 17 years been taken to a repair shop, it still continues to function properly, and it cost me £600. Kenwood manufactured a first class transceiver when they produced the TS430, its a pity that others do not aim for such high quality production.
The best quality tranceiver manufactured today is undoubtedly the Yaesu FT 920, which is giving its users
excellent value for money.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by N3AIU on December 15, 2003
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Gentlepersons,
I'd like to add a little personal experience here. For several years, I've been using a TS-830S and I've been really happy with it. I use it 80% on CW, 10% on SSB, and 10% on PSK31.
Within the past year, my former permanent residence became a vacation residence. I left the 830S at the old QTH, which means that I had to buy another radio for the new QTH. I decided on an IC-706MkIIG, basically because I've heard nothing but good reports about it (I think that "waiting a year or two for the manufacturer to shake out the bugs" is a common topic in this thread). Plus, when I eventually move out of my small condo into a real house up here, I could put the 706 in my car and buy yet another radio for the home.
Well, I bought the 706. I must say that I'm really impressed with how much stuff that ICOM stuffed into the radio, most of which are useful and relevant to amateur operation. But, there were three things that were disappointments:
1) The radio is almost entirely menu driven (as opposed to dial/button driven). I guess this is necessary when you try to squeeze a large number of features into a very small package. I definitely think that this radio was designed by SSB guys, because I find myself pushing LOTS of buttons during normal CW operation (reduce power for tuning up, change from keyer to straight key for tuning up, change back to full power and keyer, change to narrow CW filter, etc.).
2) I have not listened to the 830S and 706 side by side, but I could swear that the receiver on my 830S sounds better than my 706. I think my new QTH may be more noisy than my old one out in the country, so the jury is still out on that.
3) I use an external VFO in conjunction with my 830S. I really enjoy being a "two-fisted" operator in a pileup. Having to push a button to go between two VFOs on the 706 doesn't feel as good to me.
MORAL: Just because you buy a brand-spanking-new high-tech high-price radio doesn't mean that you will happier with all aspects of its performance compared to older radios. Caveat emptor!
73, Nick N3AIU
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by VE3TMT on December 15, 2003
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To LNXAUTHOR....
Are you talking about the Kenwood TS850?? In my opinion one of the best, all time HF rigs ever made. They can be had from $700 and up, which ain't bad considering it will still outperform many of the new so-called "DSP" rigs made today.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by VE3TMT on December 15, 2003
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I guess I was wrong with my guess. I owned an 850, went to an FT920, then the TS570 and now back to another 850. In my opinion the 850 blows the 570 away. The only thing missing is 6m and DSP, which I never used anyway. You can pick up a used 850 for about the same price as a used 570 but in my opinion the 850 is three times the rig the 570 is. I've owned both, and that is only my opinion.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by K2WH on December 15, 2003
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I say buy an older rig. For the money they cant' be beat.
Then again also remember, when you buy a rig, you are buying a receiver. Anything can transmit. The receiver and all the bells and whistles that enhance the receiver are what you put you money down on.
K2WH
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KG5JJ on December 15, 2003
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You know, I didn't expect to spend much money getting back into HF after an 11 year hiatus (spent most of my time on weak-signal, ATV, VHF, UHF, and beyond).
Lessee...the TS-2000 looks nice. Not a contesters HF station, but it does everything else nicely. Bought one.
Heck, now I need QRO when needed. Amp has to be solid-state, instant band switching, no muss, no fuss. Liked the look and build quality of the SG-500. Bought one.
Darn it! Now I need a power supply for use when the SG-500 is not mobile. Hmmm. PS-50 power supply, made for the SG-500. Bought it.
Since I'm lazy, I need two auto-tuners...one for mobile and one for QRO base operation. Bought them.
Now, I needed a manual QRO tuner. Bought it.
Wow! That K8RA iambic paddle looks nice! Bought one.
Don't want to talk about the rest of the gear, as you're already bored-to-tears.
There's remarkable stuff out there, that wasn't available, even 11 years ago.
Bottom line; research what's out there, if you have the money to spend...spend it!
73 KG5JJ (Mike)
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KG4PFO on December 15, 2003
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There is NO perfect rig !! No one pc. will satisfy 100% of the operators.
Buy what you think is good for you.....odds are, after a short time , you"ll be looking agian.....and again.....and again,and so on... most (including me) will buy, trade and sell many different rigs, all in search of the perfect rig, that seems to be the norm.,and besides.....its sure is a lot of fun.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by M5GWH on December 15, 2003
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Seems price is the most important factor now on par with performance.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by AK2A on December 15, 2003
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I own a lot of radios and have tried the rest. My preference changes from day-to-day. I own three top of the line radios from yaesu, kenwood and ten-tec. Which rig gets the most use? My beloved back-up FT900. It has the best sounding recovered audio. I have a high noise level here so dynamic range doesnt matter because there IS NO dynamic range in the received signals. There is no substitute for obtaining and living with many different radios before making up ones mind. Some people do this with spouses, it's a little easier with radios. Enjoy
Dave AK2A
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KA4KOE on December 15, 2003
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I bought a second hand 756pro after playing with it for a month and a half. Thats the best way to buy a rig, if you have an accomodating friend.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by N6AJR on December 16, 2003
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I currently have a Kenwood 570 d (no G) , a yaesu ft 847, and a Icom 746 pro, in the shack and an ft-840 in my truck.. I have an amerirton als 500 solid state amp, an ic-2lk solid state amp ( with at-500 tuner) an ameritron 811H.
I also have a 300 watt 2 meter fm/ssb mirage amp, a couple of 100 watt 440 amps and a couple of 170 watt 2 meter amps, 4 or 5 power supplies, ( 2 switching, the rest linear,2 dentron MT 2000 a tuners, a couple of mfj dual cross needle tuners, probably 10 dual cross needle swr / power meters (diawa, mfj, workman), and that is just what I can see,from here. several kenwood, radioshack and yaesu 2 meter or 2/440 mobiles,,,
I have had 2 clipperton L's, a sbe 33, a sbe 34, an amp supply 1000 nt amp. a texas star 3000 watt linear ( garbage) a couple of 3 ft 101ee's a single ft101 e, a ft 101ZD, all with speaker, ext vfo, freq read out etc.. some siltronix 1011's a heat kit sb 104, a couple other heath kit single banders ( 2 on 20, 1 on 40) plus their powersupplies vfo's etc. and so on.
I like the ft 847 for satalite work ( uo 14 and ao 40) and ssb on 6/ 2/ 440.
I like the kenwood for psk31, and hf rag chewing ( comfortable , easy to use).
I use the icom 746 pro with the amp and auto tuner for effortless contesting, you change the freq or the band and the tuner and the amp also change automatically. I love it for contesting.
Any how, I have had lots of toys and that is why I kept what I did, remember he who dies with the most toys wins!
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by N6AJR on December 16, 2003
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what I was trying to say is that you buy what you feel good with and keep what you like. good luck and have fun
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Considering a New Rig?
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by WA2JJH on December 16, 2003
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I hedged my bets. Bought a used TS-850SAT. Love it.
My first real rig was a Kenwood TS-520. Always been a Kenwood fan. The RF speech proc, dual xtal I.f.'s and that incredable twin PBT on the TS-850 makes it a classic and a performer.I will never sell it.
I been through many radio's. Sold my TS-50 without hesitation. In it's day there was no rig like it. Bought it when it first came out.
I did buy New a Yeasu FT-100D at a close out from giga-parts.
All the bugs were fixed. They threw in DSP and 500HZ CW for $730.
Love that radio too. I do not like all the menues.
However I like being able to go from 20M to 440 in the same box. The General RX makes for a decent Police and fire scanner too.
I guess I made an OK choice on a secondary rig. The FT-100D's are now very desirable. The New yeasu to replacethe FT-100D did not catch on.
The advice of waiting for the bugs to be engineered out holds double for the FT-100D. It is now a good radio. In fact those that were closing them out are now charging top dollar for the ones they still can get from yeasu.
I call the FT-100D, my swiss army knife rig. It has every band,mode, and feature one would have on a base rig. All the menu's for simple operation can be a pain.
I never had 2,6,440 SSB in my whole ham life. As soon as the semester is over, I might actually read the manual. I will try 2 and 6M SSb for the first time.
I have been a ham since 1976. Got back into 440 as well. I always had dual bander H-T's. Never had a full power 440 rig.
One thing Yeasu did not fix is full power on 440. It is rated at 25 watts. I was told by many to limit the 440 power down to 15 watts.
Wonder why Kenwood never came out with a DC-daylight mobile?
What ever you buy, it seems that $800-$1200 new, buys
a lot of radio.
73 DE MIKE
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by K9KJM on December 16, 2003
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I bought a used Icom 756PRO and am VERY happy I did so.
Reading the horror reports here on Eham of the 746 tells me there are serious problems with it.... To the ham who said it was "all bad antennas" I do not believe that for a minute! Other operators with other rigs also have antenna problems in the same percentage...........
A friend of mine recently also bought a used Icom 756PRO and just LOVES it! No problems of any kind.
A tremendous radio also now in the 1300 dollar range!
(Sure the new Icom 756PRO II is better, But also lots more money!)
I have been an Icom fan for many years now, but some of the recent rigs have shaken that faith. I bought one of the new IC 2720H dual band radios that is the worst radio of all time as I see it! (OR at least recent time) The 746 seems to have lots of problems also.
I like to go with the odds........... Read the reviews on the 756 PRO.........
Good luck with whatever you get!
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Considering a New Rig?
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by KE2IV on December 16, 2003
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All of this damned angst over buying a near top of the line mainstream rig!
And all the regular e-hamers ready with their worthless 2 cents.
Like he's going to get screwed or something buy buying an Icom rig!
I hope this clown doesn't give as much thought each day as to whether or not to get laid!
BUY THE DAMN RIG!
Geez....
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by K4CMD on December 16, 2003
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Well, I'll say this ... complete with a disclaimer that this is my personal experience only.
Since 1984, I've bought the following HF radios, all brand-new from ham dealers, with the following results:
TS-530SP: Six years, never a problem
TS-440S: Two years, never a problem
IC-735: Dead in box, back to HRO
TS-850S: Two years, never a problem
TS-570D: Four years, direct lightning strike killed it
IC-746: Dead in box, back to HRO
TS-570S(G): Two years, no problems, currently in shack
No kidding! Sorry, I've tried to like Icom. I just can't seem to get one that will switch on once I open the box!
73 and good luck with whatever you decide on,
Meade K4CMD
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Considering a New Rig?
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by W9CW on December 16, 2003
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Just as with automobiles, smart money buys "used." And, I agree with W8JI, "new" does not make it superior to some of the older rigs available. If you can get by the marketing hoopla of all the bells and whistles offered by most of the new transceivers today, compare their receiver and transmitter dynamics to some of the top-of-the-line older rigs - you will be surprised. There are some very fine older transceivers with very competent receivers available for less than $750, and in mint condition. You don't have to spend over $1K to get a competition-grade transceiver. Here are some examaples: Kenwood TS-830S or TS-850S, Ten-Tec Corsair I or II, Ten-Tec Omni V, Drake TR-7(A), not to mention the venerable Drake R-4C/T-4XC combo. Interestingly, the TS-830S, and the Sherwood-modified R-4C, were some of the earlier and excellent implementations of cascaded filters over two I.F.'s. Yes, these were ham-only coverage rigs, but used a narrow first I.F. filter. This technique is now being applied, albeit in a new generation DSP-based design, with the Ten-Ten Orion. Ham-band only transceivers with either crystal or very clean synthesizer L.O. injection will generally give you the best blocking and IMD dynamic range performance. If you want to SWL the International Broadcast bands, buy a dedicated shortware receiver! If you are primarily a fone op, you can't go wrong with either the TS-830S or TS-850S. However, if you a primarily a CW op, the Ten-Tec Corsair I or II, and the Omni V are your best bet, with the TS-850S a viable choice as well.
73,
Don W9CW
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by K4CMD on December 16, 2003
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I'll second that. The 850 was one of the best rigs I've ever owned, and to this day I kick myself for letting it go 10 years ago. Kenwood really had something there.
(By the way, a local ham friend still has the 850 he bought new back in '91. He's used it in the shack, outdoors in several Field Days, and for a couple of years in the salt-air environment of his 34-foot sailboat on the Chesapeake Bay. Still performs well and has never given him problems after 12 years.)
Meade K4CMD
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Considering a New Rig?
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by K8DIT on December 16, 2003
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When I buy a rig, after having bought my first rig, I listen on the air to the people with their rigs to see who bought what.
Archetypes can be observed. Back in the '60s the most noteable of these was the Collins man. A Collins man had a common thread of not only owning that brand of gear, but held certain authority. I was 13 at the time
what did I know about human nature, ham gear?
This style of choosing a rig is like going to the mall to watch girls, to shop the shoppers. While not the most exhaustive way to determine anything of value, it's fun and is alot like reading "consumer reports" or
eham.net reviews.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by KA3POY on December 16, 2003
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Sometimes new is worse :) Really depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
I have tried lots of new top of the line (Mk V, FT-1000D, etc) transceivers and cannot find any that perform as well on AM phone as my (W3HM restored) 75A-4/32V-2 combination. For AM, large heavy transformers are still the deal!
73
Tim
N5IIT
was KA3POY
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Considering a New Rig?
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by W4VR on December 16, 2003
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I've had many of the top-of-the-line radios. I had an FT-1000D for 11 years. Now I have a 756PRO, which is OK. In my humble opinion, the 1000D is the best radio money can buy...if you can find one for sale.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by W4PA on December 16, 2003
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Probably the most important consideration is:
If you don't like it, or it dies on you, can you take it back for a full purchase price refund?
Because there is no definitive way to test a radio, to know if you're going to like it other than taking it home, hooking it up to your antennas and using it for a couple of weeks.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by VE3TMT on December 16, 2003
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KE2IV,
Once again George you have proved just how much of a jerk you really are. Believe me I could use another word but this is a public forum. Every other ham who replied shared their personal experience with rigs they owned, and I enjoy that kind of information. Then you step in with your worthless BS.
You are a loser with a capital "L" George. If you haven't anything good to say, why open your trap.
Get a life!
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Considering a New Rig?
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by WA2JJH on December 16, 2003
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Boy George I.V. is from RENT-A-TROLL. A professional
trolling agency. Trained Trolls are one of the largest
growing cottege industries.
The training is extensive. However demonstration of being a total misenthrope, will waive the test and union fee!
A USDA certified official Troll shack fits inside a P.O. BOX.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by VK5CC on December 16, 2003
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Well said Tom, spot on(W8JI).Most modern transmitters today are splatter boxes and DSP; well forget it.I'll stick to ts520s,ts820s and Collins S line and KWM-2'S anyday!
Cheers from Chris VK5CC.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by K4ZMV on December 16, 2003
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Martin, I'd take the advice of a lot of the commenters and buy a used radio. Some time ago I sold my FT1000D and waited until recently to purchase a new radio, a FT1000MP MARKV. Seemed to be a nice radio, but died 60 days from the day UPS left it at my door. Just bought a used Ten Tec OMNI VI PLUS and wish I had bought it first. Yaesu says the MARKV will be back, '... in less than two weeks'. So, a new radio isn't nirvana. I agree with W8JI about performance. Been a ham about 45 years, all CW, and I can tell you that transmitted signal quality is not improving. Ten Tec is the exception. All in all, there is a lot to choose from and the used route is the least expensive way to find out.
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KZ9G on December 16, 2003
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W8JI hit it on the head. Recent transceivers' intermodulation distortion products have worsened over the last 10 to 20 years.
Be careful what you buy...check out the measured specs in the ARRL's product reviews to get a better picture of what has happened over the years. Compare the specs...play with a few radios, and make an intelligent choice based on facts and operating preferences. Remember, it's your money...spend it wisely by doing some good old fashion research and evaluation.
73.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by WA2JJH on December 16, 2003
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New or used, there is that sad day, When the rig stops working. The older rigs one can do minor to moderate repairs.
With the new stuff, I do not have a great repair flair.
One might want to consider the track record of which companies do right by the ham.
I have found Kenwood for out of warrentee repairs to be expensive and timely.
My TS-850SAT once did need one repair that I was not up to. I had one very bad experience with KENWOOD on my TS-50.
I found an excellent 3erd party repair lab. If one checks out the repair reviews on EHAM, one independent lab has only rave reviews for ICOM and KENWOOD. This repair place is an ACE!
I hear that TEN-TEC is very ham friendly and is very good with repairs.
In a perfect world, when you receive a new rig DOA, the vender should ship you a new one upon receipt of the DOA Rig. I always ask the vendor, what if the rig is a lemon?
We have all heard of rigs that should get frequent flier miles in repeat repairs!
Before I buy, I now consider the what if? Who will back me up. Who will do an honest repair. Is the rig one that I can perhaps do limited repairs on.
Much to consider.
73 DE MIKE
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KC0MQR on December 16, 2003
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Why blame the antenna system? There are hundreds of radios out there including Icoms that do not have this problem. This is just that amateur radio!!!!! Field day, experimentation, remote operations, and yes not so good antennas. Give me a break!!! This radio has a flaw and Icom needs to get on with it and fess up. There is always going to be static discharge etc. and if you cannot build a radio that cannot take the heat stay the h--l out of the fire!! My radio has been gone
4 weeks and no word on when I will get it back and that is just rediculous!!!
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by W3ULS on December 17, 2003
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I agree with W4PA that the only satisfactory way to check out a rig for suitability is to take ownership of it and to use it where it's going to be used. However, I think it takes longer than a few weeks.
Also, while helpful, the reviews and lab data in QST are only useful as rough guides. You shouldn't decide against a rig based on QST, nor should you decide for it.
Since a lot of stuff has to be checked out, I don't think a few weeks with a new rig is enough--you have to have the experience of dealing with summer static, intermittent power line noise, propagation anomalies, contests, different antennas, etc.
I've bought both used and new, and am inclined in favor of the new if only for warranty coverage. But new or used, this evaluation process is expensive. In only a couple of cases have I cleared my expenses when selling a rig I no longer was interested in. The majority of my resales have been at a loss.
A final comment: any ham who has not experienced the Icom PRO series or the new Ten-Tecs is denying himself the experience of hearing what really good implementation of digital signal processing can do. The receivers in these rigs are vastly superior to any of the analog rigs with DSP add-ons available from other manufacturers. And they are only going to get better.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by KC2ILJ on December 17, 2003
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Well here is my comment:
I'm had the same problem before.
I choose Ft 1000MP marl V field for the price.Uhhhhhhhh nice smell whe you take this out of the box, I still with this radio and also got from second hand a Icom IC 756Pro II and a Icom Ic 706mk2g, and I telling you if you basic a CW operator like me ths 756 blow out the FT 1000 but for SSB I prefer the Yaesu and for mobil the 706.
If you can afford the price of the icom get them and if you are planing to work 6 meters, if not get the FT1000 mark 5 field.
Enjoy
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by KD5VHF on December 17, 2003
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I find it funny that alot of folks will spend BIG $$$ for the "Latest/Greatest" new rig with the "BEST" receiver then spend more $$$ on a amplifier and high power tuner then hook it all up to a wire antenna 15-20ft high because it "works". Makes more sense to me to FIRST spend the $$$ on a GOOD antenna system then upgrade the equipment if desired.
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Considering a New Rig?
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by WA4BWO on December 17, 2003
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Awww, just get you one of those Kenwood TS 2000s and be done with it. I got mine when they were brand spankin' new and never had a lick a trouble with it! Cept for the comments from the peanut gallery bout how Kenwood aint no good. It just went in one ear and out the other, (of the rig, that is) and it still keeps on tickin'. I even get comments about the audio quality beein' real good! Oh yea, it covers all bands and has two receivers in it too! I've never heard a peep from it, it never complains about being used ALOT and it's always on frequency with the rated output power. I can even hear stations on it like I can with my 756 pro (OOPPS). Oh yea, the TS never get jealous either, but the Icom does cause it dosen't gets used much anymore, cept for looking at the band cdx on the pretty screen from the long wire ant. Oh well, Happy Holidays and I hope Santa gives you your hearts desire. DH
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by KG4WBH on December 17, 2003
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Hi there,
Well it seems you really don't have any cut and dried, concise results from reading all these posts. I personally was searching for a nice "mid-line" HF rig and after looking at the type of operating I was going to be doing, I decided on the Tentec Jupiter. It is a dream of a CW machine and has great audio as well. I got the remote tuning pod and the desk mic and all is good at the base station now. It has an awsome reciever and silky smooth QSK on transmit. Buy one second handed if you do though, I saved alot of money by getting one used.
Pick what you want though, I have had a Kenwood and it had a great receiver in it, I have used a little Alinco DX70T for the last several months and it worked real well. Get what ever the dream for YOU is, not what some grumpy old man says is the best....
See you on the air,
KG4WBH
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KC8VWM on December 18, 2003
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KD5VHF has a very good point,
"I find it funny that alot of folks will spend BIG $$$ for the "Latest/Greatest" new rig then hook it all up to a wire antenna 15-20ft high because it "works"."
If it's performance you are looking for, it's all about what the antenna will do, not how much you spent on your radio equipment. For example, one should prefer to spend $800.00 on a good antenna system as opposed to spending $2200.00 on a 1500 watt amplifier.
As far as DSP and other "noise filtering technologies" on a radio are concerned, my radio is currently equipped with factory installed DSP and to be quite honest, I never use it. In my opinion all it does is change the tonal qualities of received signals. I have yet to actually "pull" out or improve a signal to any significant degree from the background noise floor using this device. I feel that improvements made to my antenna would do a much better job of pulling in the weak ones as opposed to using my DSP digital filter.
Notch filters seem useful when experiencing heterodyne on SSB from AM signals, however they too can have drawbacks. Great if you don't want to listen to a constant high pitched whine behind the station you are trying to listen to.
I don't believe in some of the latest fads for improved reception. For the most part it's marketing hype designed to suck more dollars out of your pocketbook.
I have reduced my noise levels on my radio by 3 s-units for a grand total of $50.00 of common sense.
Identifying and correcting noise sources in your home, reorienting your antenna away from noise sources can have a more significant impact on your reception capabilities than even the most advanced technologies available to reduce noise levels sold on the shelves today.
Stick to the basics for improving you transmission and reception capabilities. They worked 20 years ago and they still work today.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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by KG4WBH on December 18, 2003
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Hi again,
I couldn't help but notice the very important and wise words of KC8VWM. Finding noise in your home and a good antenna system that is errected properly. I personally use a G5RV and it is WAY too low. It works ok, but I plan on adding a modest tower (50' to 60') and maybe a triband beam on top of it.
On the topic of noise, COMPUTERS, and BABY MONITORS in my home create an amazing amount of RF trash and I found that grounding both the computer and the radios in my shack helped a lot. The baby monitor issue is another story though. Until my little girl grows up a little more I will just have to live with it. It isn't nearly as bad as the computer was though.
On DSP filters, they are cool when someone starts calling CQ 700 hertz up from your QSO and they are splattering 2 KC wide with their signal. Still it isn't the perfect filter (is there such a thing?) but it is nice to have from time to time. Most of the time I run without any kind of filters on and it is suprising how much you can hear with them all off.
Hope you get what you want and have fun with it.
73
KG4WBH
David
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by WA3VJB on December 19, 2003
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Martin,
You've asked a question that includes some very valuable points about basic "shopping" strategies. I would like to highlight an experience I had with Icom that may shed light on company policy toward customers. It speaks directly to your concern about a vendor's ability to handle problems correctly. The matter that follows has to do with a likely design failure and a company's inability and unwillingness to confirm or dispel the problem as documented by a potential customer.
A friend of mine who is active in the AM Community, Pete, WA2CWA, had recently bought an Icom 756 Pro II. When he used it on AM, I noticed a gritty sort of noise coming along with his audio that seemed to vary with the loudness or amplitude of his modulation.
Pete can't hear it himself and does not consider it a problem, so that's settled. But I was curious that a high-end transceiver like this was falling short being able to produce one of the modes offered.
I didn't pursue it right away, but after hearing several more 756 Pro II on AM, all with the same problem, I decided to conduct a technical exploration as to why this noise was taking place.
First of all, a call to Icom, where a service worker acknowledged there had been just that sort of problem on RECEIVE. It took a while for him to realize I wanted to discuss a transmitted audio problem, and, mystified, he kicked my call up to the Icom service manager.
The service manager seemed a bit abrupt with me, but I'll concede that maybe it was my tone of frustration at finding someone who could take the question at all. Nonetheless, he too said the receive problem had been solved, and he drew my attention to some paid advertising in issues of QST where Icom explained the corrective measures taken.
So, I was back to trying to convince him I wasn't talking about a receive problem. Eventually, in exasperation, he not only said he knew of no such problem, but that he would not have the time nor resources to "check" what I was saying as a cause for concern. Little did he know that I did not yet own an Icom, and that his treatment of my overture had now convinced me never to buy an Icom product.
Curiously, Icom's competitor in this part of the market, the FT1000 Mark V, sounds beautiful on AM, and offers the same DSP circuitry that seems to be to blame for the poor performance of the 756 Pro II on AM.
I call your attention to these sound files to hear for yourself the problem, which, as far as I know, remains unresolved.
http://amfone.net/audio/IC756-RumbleDemo.wav
Even if you and other potential buyers of the Icom have no immediate plans to operate the specialty of AM on the shortwave ham bands, I urge you to consider the lack of interest Icom showed when a perceived problem with one of its flagship radios was brought to the attention of those responsible for responding to such concerns.
Paul/VJB
Annapolis
P.S. I also picked up on N5IIT/Tim's comment below --
>I have tried lots of new top of the line (Mk V, FT-1000D, etc) transceivers and cannot find any that perform as well on AM phone as my (W3HM restored) 75A-4/32V-2 combination.
And Tim I'd like to encourage you to take a listen to this sound file of Randy's FT1000MP Mk V, recorded on 10 meters AM during Cycle 23.
http://amfone.net/audio/kk7tv.rm
Please also see my review here on eham.com, rating as unacceptable the use of a stock 75A4 on AM.
Regards to all, especially during the holidays...
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by KA4KOE on December 19, 2003
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Boy George is outta control. Michael, based on his behavior and your expertise with dealing with psychopaths, how would you characterise his condition? He's already had a few vile posts deleted by the site manager. Why don't they just lock him up in a soft room somewhere with nothing sharp handy?
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RE: Considering a New Rig?
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by BIRDMAN on December 24, 2003
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There is so much information in this post we can publish it! Wow, I love this stuff!!!
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by WA2JJH on December 27, 2003
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IHMO, waste of money to spend extra for A.F. type DSP.
You either have a good receiver or do not. Audio DSP will not make that rig perform like a top of the line NON DSP rig.
I.F. DSP can be good. However the I.F. DSP should not replace another stage of XTAL filtering.
IMHO do not let DSP adjustments be the top reason why you buy rig X over rig Y.
I would take good IF PBT and manual notch, over an audio DSP any time.
If you look at many inexpensive DSP rigs, NOTCH and passband tuning are emulated in the AF stages by the DSP. This saves money over dong the PBT and notch at the IF/RF stage.
An Audio DSP will not make up for a bad RX front end.
Some I.F. DSP's do a decent job, only because I.F.DSP is only to be found on the higher end rigs. The higher End rigs have a good RX from the get go.
73 happy rig buying 73 de wa2jjh MIKE
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