Used Equipment Observation
Curt Krelic (K3EY)
on
January 29, 2004
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I wanted to see what others think and see if they have observed what I have. Ever since the new equipment prices have dropped, the used equipment prices have remained relatively high in comparison. New equipment pricing is now within the reach of hams who previously would have never looked at new equipment because it simply was beyond their means.
This phenomenon was brought to light for me when in the process of finding some used HF equipment to play with. I placed some posts on different boards looking for some older HF gear. The replies I received surprised me a little. I was looking for equipment 14 years old and older. The prices I received by the people who answered my posts were prices that one can buy new equipment for. As one guy who responded told me: I paid over $1800 for this set up and I feel what I am asking is fair. Well here is the problem; for less than half that, which is $900 and he was asking $1000, one can go out and buy a brand new HF rig with more features than the 14 year old gear, even better performance. Plus, you will have a few hundred dollars left over.
I was looking for Ten Tec equipment because I use almost all CW. I found that Ten-Tec equipment to be even more overpriced than the Japan-made radios. I am all for buy American, but for the people touting that mantra; they will have very limited places to buy even the basic necessities to exist. Forget about shopping at Wal-Mart where prices are great but nothing is made in USA, forget about buying any radio equipment other than Ten-Tec. I can go on and on but you get the picture.
What I ended up doing is buying a new radio from the Ten-Tec factory which was cheaper than buying 14 and 15 year old equipment. Even 15-year-old Japanese radios are commanding what new equipment costs and for the life of me I don't understand how any of it sells. I guess some people don't research used and new markets and just buy on the fly. Seems some of the older equipment has become folklore of sorts with stories of how it was the best ever made. This is the kind of equipment that commands and brings more money than brand new equipment costs. Even if that equipment is 15 plus years old it still brings top dollar! Sorry, I don't buy into that folklore that it was better and the new stuff is worse. I don't believe manufactures make worse and not better equipment as time goes on. I think this stuff is created by a savvy few horse trades to keep the used market prices artificially high. I also think a lot of the pricing has to do with emotional attachment and nothing at all with real performance.
Hearing things like: I worked 200 plus countries on cold winter nights with this radio doesn't make it worth it's weight in gold, like some people seem to think. If you go on eBay people are buying obsolete and impossible to repair equipment for more that what buying new equipment with a warranty costs. Some of the older equipment like Drake and especially the Collin's stuff has become, in my opinion completely out of the realm of common sense as to the prices they command versus real world performance and features. It reminds me of an old muscle car. I had a 1967 Dodge RT with a 440 in it and paid $1300 for it years ago, it was in as new condition. I recently saw one for sale for $30,000.00! To me there is no rhyme or reason to this phenomenon of pricing. These are just some of my observations and I wondered if I was alone in my thinking, so I wrote this little article.
Curt, k3ey
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Used Equipment Observation
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on January 29, 2004
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Glad to see you found gear you thought was worth your money.
As you have found out, other people place a higher value on used gear than you do.
I’m having great fun going through a C-Line that I bought, trying to find out why it doesn’t work the way it should. I’m in no hurry. I learn as I go along.
What you are going through is a confrontation with your own concepts of valuing items. You are seeing that others value differently from you. You are also discovering that the value of a fixed amount of money varies also. Nothing has an inherent value.
73
Bob
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N4OZI on January 29, 2004
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Don't worry about the real old equipment, the boatanchors as some of us call them. In another 10 to 15 years the price will come down a great deal. Why? Well, who's going to buy it in 10 to 15 years from now? The sad fact is that the average age of the ham community goes up every year. At that time they will either be SK or too old to operate the stuff. Where will the demand for that stuff come from?
The general public could careless about the older ham gear, or any ham gear for that matter. It's not like antique radios, where the general public thinks it's cool to put one in their living room.
The bottom line: As the population of the ham community continues to drop faster than the number of old ham gear that's out there, it will come a time that the demand will drop and thus so will the prices.
Kind of a sad prediction but I don't see it going any other way.
Allen Cutts
N4OZI
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by VK4AE on January 29, 2004
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unless the used equipment is a true collectors item,then the people who ask outrageous prices for used gear,usually end up stuck with it until they become more 'realistic' about its value.
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by N0WVA on January 29, 2004
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Those old boat anchors must be built pretty good if they are outliving the old-timers who used them!:0) But, your right. There is always going to be someone who has a wad of $100's burning a hole in his pocket...
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KD5SFK on January 29, 2004
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It's Economics 101. Obviously the market is supporting the prices. Thank you EBay.
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by N2MOX on January 29, 2004
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I've made the same observation. Particuly(sp?) on EBAY.
Radio's that aren't even as old as some of my underwear ;)sell for the same price they are new!
I guess your right! Some people in this hobby don't seem to bother with alittle research they just spend spend spend!
It's a shame really...at night I tune in on 80m to here some of the oltimers rag chew, and I hear of what the old ham hobby was like... The mind set of people who really kept it alive with the magic of radio. Now things are changing, but for the better...I think not in some respect. People don't deem to be as motivated, or as smart(if you will). People would rather bring there radio back to the MFG. with the warrenty then to fix it.
On the same token, I can't blam them either. nobody wants to void the warrenty!
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KD7KGX on January 29, 2004
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I don't buy the premise of the article.
Take one example. A new Ten-Tec Orion sells for $3300. A new Ten-Tec Jupiter sells for $1250.
With just a modicum of effort it isn't hard to find an Omni VI/Option 1, 2, or 3 for sale for $1000 to $1200. These are great radios (performance-wise identical to a VI+, #1 and #2 have one less 9 Mhz filter slot) and have receivers that are only bested by the K2 and the Orion. You can get world-class performance for less than the price of a brand-new Jupiter (a good mid-level rig).
You can also buy a used as-new Jupiter for under a grand, if you shop around. I've seen 'em go as low as $800 (and missed out on a Buy-It-Now incredible deal that included lots of accessories, all that could have been resold for a profit). The Pegasus (Jupiter w/o the front panel, must be computer controlled) can be picked up for $500 and up.
You can pick up an Omni VI or Paragon for around $600, and they are still great rigs.
I don't price much Japanese HF equipment, but I can tell you that I have saved substantial amounts buying used on VHF equipment. Example: I picked up an Alincon DR-605TQ for $225 that had been owned by a smoker and looked like crap in the photos... but a half-hour taking the rig apart (including the mic) and cleaning the plastic parts with an old toothbrush and dishwashing liquid resulted in a like-new-looking (and functioning) radio. Similarly, I picked up a DJ-V5 that had been physically hammered... the front case was all scratched up and actually had holes drilled where some owner had tried to put a different power jack on the side for APRS work... for under $100, and then bought a new case from Alinco for under $25, and now I have a brand-new-appearing (and functioning) HT. I could tell you about the almost-new Tektronix 466 scope I bought for under $100, or the like-new MFJ memory keyer I bought with remote keypad and additional memory for less than half the retail price of the basic keyer alone... etc. There was a while there a few years ago where, because I was interested in them, I was buying and selling Toshiba Librettos and making at least 30% per transaction. Because I have taken the time to KNOW the going rate of items I'm interested in, I've occasionally been able to step in and pick up a true bargain... and turn around and sell it again within a week and make 25% to 50% on my money.
If you know what you're looking for and what the going prices are, there are bargains galore to be had online. Just remember to set a maximum amount you're willing to pay and be willing to walk away from an auction if the price goes too high... there'll be another item selling tomorrow.
Back to the original subject of this missive... if you have any patience you WILL be able to find almost anything at a bargain online.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KB9YUR on January 29, 2004
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Maybe the reason why some of the older radios command higher prices is because
they are perceived as having better quality and workmenship then todays products.
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by N8EMR on January 29, 2004
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some prices havent changed in 20 year. I purchased a used Kenwood ts-520SE in the early 80's for $350. The same radio is selling for the same price today.
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by KB3KKT on January 29, 2004
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For one there is a steady influx of new Hams that demand equipement. Many of the Tech's are buying hf gear in anticipation of get hf privilages and you have a huge market in freebanders and cb'ers who want the power for their hobby. This equates to demand and that keeps the market up. I track a number of items on Ebay and it sure doesn't look like a price drop anytime soon.
73 Lynn
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K3PZ on January 29, 2004
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It's all about perceived value. If a ham thinks the radio is worth the price then he will pay it. Remember, it is the buyers who will determine the (average price) selling price of a radio in the hamradio marketplace. If hams were not willing to pay some of the ridiculous asking prices for some of this gear, then the average selling price would be alot lower. Just my 2 cents.
Paul Zora
K3PZ
Port St Lucie, FL
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by LNXAUTHOR on January 29, 2004
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- i certainly agree with and understand the author's confusion over the pricing of used rigs... this confounded me when i first started shopping for an HF rig...
- it took me a while to figure things out, but i now think there's at least one good reason why used amateur radio transceivers sell for a higher price than other electronics...
- even though a rig may be out of date, years old, and no longer manufactured, if the rig supports all the current modes and bands, there is no difference in operation and signal... IOW, i defy anyone to tell the difference in a QSO between a properly functioning older rig and a properly functioning 'out-of-the-box' new rig...
- as we all know, every piece of gear is different, and transceivers vary in ergonomics, operator conveniences, I/O ports, and receive quality...
- isn't a good signal report is a good signal report? i worked a gentleman on phone (from Georgia) last week... he had great audio and a strong signal... what was he using? an ICOM FT-718 and a Heathkit SB-200...
- i have a love/hate relationship with eBay... buying used/new off eBay (or even at a hamfest) can be a crapshoot... perhaps a couple other factors contributing to the high price of used gear are:
1. impulse buying
2. obsessive collecting
3. nostalgia
- just my (US)$0.02
p.s. if you think used ham gear is expensive now, just wait for the 'sticker shock' prices we'll see next quarter when the Japanese amateur radio oligopoly readjusts its model market pricing...
p.s.s. i also bought American... Ten Tec Argonaut V - and i LOVE the rig!
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Used Equipment Observation
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by AG4RQ on January 29, 2004
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"It reminds me of an old muscle car. I had a 1967 Dodge RT with a 440 in it and paid $1300 for it years ago, it was in as new condition. I recently saw one for sale for $30,000.00! To me there is no rhyme or reason to this phenomenon of pricing."
You're not merely talking about an "old muscle car". You're talking about a 37 year old classic. Depending on the car's condition, I can see it commanding a price like that. The same goes for classic ham gear, especially Collins. Gee, I wonder what a mint '55 T-Bird would go for today! Do you beleive that the '55 T-Bird is almost 50 years old!
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K0RFD on January 29, 2004
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If people didn't BUY stuff for those prices, then it would be pretty hard to SELL stuff at those prices. That means that SOMEBODY thinks the price is fair.
Nobody has a gun to anybody's head with regard to buying "preowned" equipment. If you see something that you think the seller is asking too much for, offer him less. If he won't deal, don't buy it. It's pretty simple, actually.
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by KE4MOB on January 29, 2004
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I think you are seeing various things at work:
A) Ham rigs really don't depreciate (and very few are considered obsolete--as in unusable). Face it, a rig made 25 years ago has all the same basic function as one made yesterday. Bells and whistles are about all the difference there is. It is not surprising to see second, third, fourth and even fifth owners of a particular radio get just as much enjoyment out of the rig as the initial owner.
B) "Professional" amateur traders. Some hams buy an item one day, sell it the next...invariably to someone who will turn right around and resell it. And, naturally, they always want to make a profit. That's why eBay prices are so high. Very few of the auction items are bought to be used...they are bought to be resold.
C) Collectibility. Face it, some radios transcend time. Every ham who has ever had a real QSO knows that names such as TenTec, Collins, and Drake are legendary and will fetch higher than normal prices.
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by KC7MM on January 29, 2004
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There are a couple of things that are involved here. The first is inflation. Your 2004 dollar is worth much less than a 1975 one. I'm sure that you can find a table listing inflation factors that will prove this out. If you think a new Orion is expensive at $3,300, figure out what a new Collins S line would cost you in 2004 dollars! Second is nostalgia. Don't we all want to own that first rig we used? Now that we are older, our disposable income has increased substantially from those early years of our hamming activities. There are a lot of other hams yearning for that same piece of gear. Finally, although I love the quality and value of new gear (pricing today is incredible!), I can't work on SMT components! I have a hard time finding a diode smaller than a salt grain, let alone replacing it. The components on older gear, whether tube or early solid state, are large enough for us to get our fingers on. So it is well worth it for many hams to pay a little more for the old stuff, just for the satisfaction of being able to "play" with it and get it back on the air.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KG6AMW on January 29, 2004
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I never could quite understand the pricing structure for used Ten Tec equipment. Almost like, Japanese equipment value plus 50% because it's Ten Tec. This means that used Ten Tec equipment is generally overpriced due to emotional value and not real value. I'll look elsewhere.
KG6AMW
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N2XE on January 29, 2004
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Good article!!
It's just amazing that hams won't give me stuff I want for free. Really torks my rachet. When Howard Dean takes back our country, I'm sure I'll get everything I want for free.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KD8OK on January 29, 2004
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It is amazing to me what people will pay for the older equipment, expecially on eBay. I recently sold two 13 year old dual band mobiles on eBay (one with a problem) for quite a good price. One of them sold for almost as much as I paid for it "used" 13 years ago. It is definately a sellers market.
One thing that I have seen is that our local radio store (Universal) doesn't sell at eBay prices. So at least you can get a decent deal for retail used equipment.
However, I have noticed that some people like to try to sell at eBay prices at Dayton. I just keep walking when I see that.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K7VO on January 29, 2004
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I've seen very high prices on eBay too. I also bought my IC-202 there for $80. Isn't it supposed to be collectable? Yes. Then why did I get it at a reasonable price? Honest answer: I haven't the foggiest.
I've seen a Tokyo Hy-Power HT-750 6/15/40 meter SSB/CW HT go on eBay for $300 one week, $540 the next week, and $300 again the week after. I'm talking about similarly equipped radios, mind you, with pictures showing that they are in good shape, with owners promising that they work. New ones (with no accessories at all) are $519 plus shipping. I paid $303 for one on eBay with almost all the optional add-ons. Go figure.
Ten Tec gear is known for performance. Take a look at the ARRL lab test numbers for a mid '80s Corsair or Corsair II and compare them to some of today's rigs and you will see my point. Oh, sure, there are rigs out there that have surpassed the Corsair, both American and Japanese, but some of what is being offered today is inferior to that 20 year old design. Is a Corsair in great condition worth more than a brand new Icom IC-718? Obviously some people think so. I know I do.
I do have an interesting collection of Mizuho and Tokyo Hy-Power gear bought used. One or two items I paid "collector's price" because I wanted them badly enough. Most I didn't pay very much for at all. I think the key to getting good prices on eBay, at hamfests, or from local hams is knowing a lot about what you are buying, setting a firm limit on what you are willing to pay, and then a great deal of patience. If you have to have it NOW you are going to pay a premium.
Oh, and the American vs. Japanese argument: Ten Tec makes some of the best HF gear out there, no doubt. They do not make products comparable to most of the VHF/UHF gear and QRP portable gear that I have. I can either do without or buy Japanese. Now, if Ten Tec decides to make a nice HF SSB/CW HT I'll have my order in right away :)
73,
Caity
K7VO
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N8WCE on January 29, 2004
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Good Post Curt. Here's one for you: when icom first rolled out the v8 2 meter ht, places like HRO, AES, and Texas Towers were selling it for $139.00. Small dealers like the one near my QTH, didn't have them in stock yet. Someone must have ordered one, checked it out, and decided they didn't like it, because there was one on the used shelf. PRICE? $149.00, I swear. Less extream examples abound at this same store, they do have a great return policy on used gear, but there isn't a used single band or dual band moble, or ht in the place more than 10 to 30 bucks cheaper than you can buy new gear for. I do agree that nobody is holding a gun to anyones head, but I am constantly amazed that they sell any of them. I guess it's like P.T. Barnum said, one born every minute.
73 Willie N8WCE.
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by K0AMZ on January 29, 2004
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As long as Ten Tech maintains their factory support, their equipment will maintain its value. Their support is AAA+++
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by N4GI on January 29, 2004
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If everyone would avoid buying overpriced stuff from the professional SK estate sale vultures, we would all be better off.....
73,
Blake N4GI
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by W9RPE on January 29, 2004
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Be aware of the now rampant "eBay" syndrome. Simply stated..any old transceiver(or other equipment, doecn't seem to matter) that is advertised as "rare" or "vintage" automatically increases in value by $300-500 bucks and sometimes more. But...people pay it!!!!
Dahhhhhh....
Ron
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Used Equipment Observation
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by AB7UW-MONTANA on January 29, 2004
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In 2002 I purchased a Kenwood TS-930 s/at off of of E-bay for around 650.00 with shipping. Myself along with about another 50 bidders were wanting it,why? because its a hell of a radio! I then turned around and sold my very first rig, a Kenwood TS-820s on E-bay for around 300.00 including a MC-50 mic. I honestly believe the reason for these higher prices is due to the fact that Ham radio trancievers/transmitters and recievers dont become obsolete so therefore ther function is still viable. My most recent purchase was a Icom Ic-725 to use for a back up rig. I purchased it for 250.00 plus shipping. THe demand for Amateur gear is high so therefore the price is high. My 2 cents on this one Thanks! Vaughn N1XV ex AB7UW
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by K4CMD on January 29, 2004
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There's another aspect to this that hasn't been touched on yet (I think): Many people who don't buy radios "for keeps" -- but prefer to trade frequently -- are also those people who have to have the latest and greatest.
I was one of those, just once. When the Kenwood TS-570D (not the "G"; not the "S" model) first came out in January 1997, I just had to have one. The introductory price for this HF-only (no 6 meters) radio? $1,569 at HRO. I got a "hamfest special" and paid HRO $1,539 for the radio.
Now, what's a brand-spanking-new TS-570D(G) selling for today? Let's go over to HRO and see. WOW. $999.95. (Actually there's a $10 coupon -- oh boy -- but I'll be fair and use the $999.95 price.)
Today I could sell that TS-570D on ebay and get about $650 or $700 for it. Depreciation of 30 percent wouldn't be too bad, *IF* I had paid only $300 more for it new. But because I had to be the first kid on the block with the new toy, I'd be taking a 65 percent hit off what I paid for the radio. (That's one reason I've hung onto the little radio so long.)
What I'm saying is, some -- maybe many -- of these sellers are those who also had to be the first kid on the block, and they paid handsomely for that pleasure. But they want to squeeze every cent they can out of these radios that they paid too much for to begin with.
Meade K4CMD
P.S. I bought a brand-new Kenwood TS-530SP (successor to the venerable 520 series) in 1984 as my first HF radio. I paid HRO $639 for it brand new. It was in the late '80s that the definition of "mid-priced HF gear" changed from $700 to $1200, and when I sold the radio five years later, I was able to get $500 for it. 78 percent recovery -- not bad! (And BTW I'd love to have that radio back again -- I highly recommend it!)
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by WB2WIK on January 29, 2004
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In Marketing, one of the first principles to learn is that people (and manufacturers) don't set prices, the market does.
As long as someone's willing to pay X for Y, Y will always be worth X.
eBay is an awful place to buy ham gear, although some claim wonderful results. I don't see exactly how that's possible, since everything I see listed for sale on eBay is available locally to me for less money, and I can go try it out first; haven't found any exception to that, yet. Kind of like buying stuff from the television retailers and infomercial sellers: I've never seen any item on "QVC" or "HSN" or any of these TV-shops sell for a price as low as I can find at the local stores in L.A. And that includes the "this product is only available from us and will never be sold in stores!" items. Pretty laughable.
But, Caveat Emptor prevails!
WB2WIK/6
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Used Equipment Observation
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by W3DCG on January 29, 2004
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I share your pain.
That is why I'm with budget, naked Jupiter... a Pegasus.
I bought a used Corsair, and TS 850. Both needed repair within 1 year. Now the 850 is FB as new, but- my investment hovers a bit over a grande!
I love my Pegasus. No, I wouldn't contest with it. But for everything else, it works great for me, without a remote encoder.
I thought I'd need one, but I don't, instead, I'll upgrade my Mouse to Optical. Out of Pocket cost: 10 bux on sale.
I thought about Jupiter, decided- what I really want is to try the lowest cost current entry into RF DSP noise reduction while not compromising on the best keying ever created by humanity.
You know, if you surf at all, the mouse works just fine.
Hey! There are two Winged Pony's on the block right now!
In the final analysis- I decided Pegasus was lowest risk, highest value. No worries about intermittent, or scratchy, or wobbly knobs and switches, or scratches/bizarre anamolies with the display, and whatever else is associated with a used normal radio.
Pegasus is a box.
What could go wrong with a Power Switch?
Too bad they are being discontinued...but I do not worry about obtaining service, whenever that time arrives.
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Get Real
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by WPE9JRL on January 29, 2004
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My personal observation: Last year I posted a Wanted
Yaesu FT-1000MP ad on QTH.com. Had about 20 responses.
Most MP offers came at $1500+ for a stripped radio.
One offer came in at $1100 and it was exactly what I wanted: a later serial MP with no mods. I bought that one. The seller was a realist, serious about selling the radio...knowing brand new Fields were fetching about $1700.
It's all supply and demand. Most of the respondents to my ad were just testing the waters, not serious about selling. The guy I bought my MP from had three of them and was tired of one sitting on the shelf unused for a long time.
And.....you really want to see overpriced equipment? Drive to AES in Milwaukee. You'll see many used sets tagged at near 80-90 percent of new price. They've been like that way before there was an ebay.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by XE1UFO on January 29, 2004
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Yes, some used gear is VERY overpriced! Some is worth it!
As far as TenTec being the "only American made" gear out there, there is also SGC (www.sgcworld.com). And also Elecraft. TenTec is great: I have owned a TenTec Triton IV and now a Argonaut 509 (QRP)rig. But for the same price as their newest QRP rig, I got a much-smaller (transportable) rig and DSP2 from SGC. (SG2020)
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K1XV on January 29, 2004
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An economist would define fair market price as the price at which an informed seller would make a transaction with an informed buyer, with neither party under duress. That being said, inflated "asking prices" at which no one is willing to buy is not a fair market price, just as a buyers offer price that attracts no sellers is not a "fair market price".
Therefore, it only takes a couple of uninformed buyers bidding against each other to drive up eBay prices beyond fair market value.
While many slam eBay, I think it is wonderful because it creates a national, even world wide market for things that buyers might never, ever find at a hamfest, even Dayton. So the buyer of the unusual may have a shot at finding it on eBay, and the seller of the unusual may find the one buyer who really wants that item.
HOWEVER, on generic, common gear, I agree that market prices are generally too high to interest me, unless it is an item that is no longer in production and I feel for some reason I really want/need it.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K1XV on January 29, 2004
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First licensed in 1962.
There wasn't that much to begin with, but all that is left is my Hammarlund HQ-145X, a Knight SWR bridge, my QSL cards, a Dow Key relay, my General ticket (sandwiched in a Lucite base) a log book, and me. There is also an old RCA VoltOhmyst kicking around here too.
A lot of stuff disappeared when I got this idea in 1964 that I needed a Norton motorcycle and I had a fire sale of the posessions of my youth. Yes, the Lionel trains went too.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KG4YJR on January 29, 2004
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At least there is something in the electronics market that doesn't depreciate so fast. Pay $600 for a computer or television and two weeks later it's only worth $200. Most people, myself included will toss a broken 19" color television out the door and buy a new one for $100 instead of getting it repaired, long ago you would and there used to be about a $40 - $60 bench fee just to tell you what's wrong with it and it took two months to even get it back. Is there still TV repair shops anymore?
Back to amateur equipment, does anybody really pay $150 at the hamfests for a 10 year old 2m mobile or a brick sized HT with a bad battery for $100?
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Used Equipment Observation
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by WA2JJH on January 29, 2004
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AS many pointed out....EBAY and Estate sales bozo's!
Some times it is ego. I have paid a high price on ebay, because someone had the nerve to bid against me!
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KA5N on January 29, 2004
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Prices for new radio equipment are cheaper than in the 1950's when I became a ham. Then a Johnson Ranger KIT sold for $270 and thats about $3000 in todays dollars.
As for as used rigs, have you ever watched "Antiques Roadshow?" I recently sold an old 1950's comic book for $495 and it wasn't in mint condition.
However much we complain, a lot of people have a lot of money and they buy whatever takes their fancy.
I like the older rigs as apparently do many others. They are big enough to get ahold of they have real structure and are not just a pile of chips and PCB's
(some of the newer used rigs defy this) and a person can actually work on them. Unlike computers you don't need to buy a new one every couple of years in order to be able to operate.
As for Ebay, bidding on an item is a lot like gambling and the thrill is on.
Allen KA5N
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Ha, you don't get it.
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by AH6GI on January 29, 2004
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first of all, the old radios work "good enough".
second, do a web search for "catalin radio". These are cheap plastic, 5 tube AAS radios that sell, no kidding, for $10,000, $20,000 and UP.
third, there will never, ever be another Hallicrafters SX-88 or SX-115 made.
fourth - Every ham radio boat anchor was a piece of history and most were EXPENSIVE at the time. Unlike a 286 AT computer, an old radio will hold its own on the bands.
Ever heard an HT32B on 20 meters and thought, dang, it's got that horrible tube sound? No? That's because it sounds as good as the newest ICOM or Kenwood.
I refurb Heathkits and am working on a Signal/One CX7A.
My "reference standard" SB-303 measured within a few hundred Hz drift over a week. This is a 30+ year old analog radio.
I expect that in 5 years everyone here will be kicking themselves, saying, I could have bought that $15,000 KWM-2 for under $2,000 or that $1,500 SX-110 was only $200.
see my boatanchor page at www.kiyoinc.com/heathstuff.html for more musings. I also set up groups.yahoo.com/group/radioinvestor
Better buy that boatanchor NOW while it's still cheap.
de ah6gi/4
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RE: Ha, you don't get it.
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by K3EY on January 29, 2004
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Great replies!
This last one made me laugh because there is no way I will pay $2000 for a 30 year old radio because in 30 years from now it will be worth $30,000.00 LOL
Even if it's true, not this guy. Old to me is the radios of the 70's because I became a ham in 82, guess it's all relative.
Anyway I enjoyed reading all the great replies, very insightful!
k3ey
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Used Equipment Observation
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by W3JJH on January 29, 2004
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One of the things I learned in Econ 101 was that in a free market with many buyers and sellers the price of a item will be determined by each buyer's and each seller's valuation of the item. If I have a KWM-2 and you want it, then we will negotiate a price that reflects the value we both place on the radio. Or, if we can't agree, I'll have to find some other willing buyer, and you will have to find another seller.
TenTec had a demo Argonaut V with a TCXO. I had $790. Now, TenTec has $790, and I have an Argonaut V with a TCXO. Both parties were satisfied with the price, so the deal went forward.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KB1KOX on January 30, 2004
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While I agree that some of the "older " radio's seem to be fetching pretty inflated price's,as long as people are willing to pay ,I don't see them coming down anytime soon.Personally,even though I just got my ticket,I've been around ham radio long enough to appreciate some of the older gear.I dont like the "new" "plasticky" gear,give me big,solid and metal,something I can work on without a magnifying glass!I also believe that their are those out there like me who happen to like a particular brand and style of radio,for me ,its the late 70's-early 80's Kenwoods,-TS-711,811,130,440,ect ect.As long as there are people who are also looking for that"particular" brand or style of radio,they'll keep the prices up.And as far as ebay goe's ,just look at the used gear price's at all the major dealer's site's,No bargains there! One note to this though,I would like to buy at least one "NEW" rig,and quess who I've been looking at? Yup.......TenTec!!
KB1KOX
Neil
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KD5HIY on January 30, 2004
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My Favorite,
A used IC-718 HF - $550-600
A New IC-718 HF - $450-500
Im sorry but if i can get a new something for the same or a little cheaper than a used, thats what i am going to do.
Chris
KD5HIY
73
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Used Equipment Observation
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by W4LGH on January 30, 2004
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I'm with Curt...I do a lot of swapping and trading on the net, and find it almost as fun as operating. And what I though was good prices really wasn't, after I purchased the "Blue Book" of radio pricing. Most people claim mint condition, when actually it is in the GOOD to Very Good condition pricing. According to "THE BOOK" for it to be MINT, it would basically have to be BRAND NEW still in the unopened box. The book prices from POOR (complete basket case) to MINT (basically New) and the used prices people ask are for MINT condition equipment. For example lets take a Kenwood TS-430S, in GOOD condition its worth $250 and in VERY GOOD condition its worth $300, we all know what people are asking for them.
Anyway, its a sellers market, guess they can get whatever, as long as someone will pay it.
The good news is, I saved a bunch of money on my car insurance! HIHI...
73 de W4LGH Alan
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by N2HBZ on January 30, 2004
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I just paid $233 shipped for an Icom AH-4 tuner.
VE7RZ just paid N4RC $233.06 + $9.75 shipping on eBay.
What am I missing? Outrageous shipping charges to Canada? VE7RZ paid in Canadian dollars? hi hi
Ebay is basically a sellers market, unless of course the seller misspells the name of the item.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/opinion/L30SPEL.html
Peace bruthahs!
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RE: Ha, you don't get it.
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by AH6GI on January 30, 2004
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Investors call it the "greater fool" effect. While it was certainly true for investments such as Worldcom in 1999, Intel in 2000, gold in 1980, be very careful about generalizing.
Some investors have a sixth sense about investing and the signs that lead up to a "ten bagger". A "ten bagger" is the term for an order of magnitude increase.
I was outbid on a chrome disk insert for a Hallicrafters SX-85 knob. I bid $5.00, it went to $10.00. This is for an item that has a cost to manufacture of, oh, ten cents.
A Heathkit AM filter went on eBay for $100. AM. I might have paid $50, maybe.
Prices are running about twice what I think is fair but that is one of the indicators that I am being priced out of the market by the smart money.
I expect that radio prices will climb for the next 5-10 years. Did I mention that in the 1960's I bought 5 copies of the 1st Daredevil comic book at the newstand? The fellow who paid me $20/copy in the 1970's is the smart money.
I know a fellow who restoring a 1970's Plymouth Barracuda convertible, Hemi powered.
Search on "Catalin Radio", study what's going on with "Glass Audio". Then tell me that a Collins KWM-2 is worth less than either.
de ah6gi/4
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KW4N on January 30, 2004
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I have a Winchester Model 12 shotgun that was handed down to me by my father, from his father. To me it's priceless. Many people have made generous offers to own this gun that was made in 1923. What is the reason for this and for items in ham radio?
Demand and supply drive the market. A large part of the demand is a need to hang onto the past and it's stories. This is particularly true in amateur radio due to globalization.
With advances in electronic technology, manufacturing techniques, and especially cheap foreign labor, U.S. manufactured gear in the future is very unlikely. The upshot of this is the growing interest in kit's that is probably our last link to the past. Both of these reasons are a backlash to globalization, in my opinion.
73's
KW4N
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by G0GDU on January 30, 2004
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I think this has something to do with the law of supply and demand.
Yes,you can but new equipment as cheap or perhaps cheaper, but there are people out there who prefer to buy older equipment; some of which is considered to be better and more robust than modern equipment.
Unfortunately the supply of the older equipment is sufficiently limited as not the meet the demand and as a consequence premium prices are demanded and paid.
If the demand were to drop, or people were to stop paying the premium prices, then I are sure that you would find the price would drop accordingly.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by NY4T on January 30, 2004
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I have encountered the same scenario as you and can think of several explanations.
1. I don't think this happens too often but sometimes a ham will quote a ludicrous price just to see if someone bites.
2. In the case of some older hams who perhaps aren't very internet savvy, they often go by hamfest prices in past years rather than checking the internet to see what current prices are.
3. Quality - many pieces of older gear were built to a better standard than current gear which seems to focus more on bells and whistles than performance and functionality. For example, if I had $800 to spend on an HF rig, I would much rather have a Kenwood TS850 than a TS570. The 850, even without DSP, blows the 570 away in every aspect.
4. Sentimental attachment - this has already been mentioned in this thread - a ham's head says to sell the rig but his/her heart says no. This leads to the ham pricing the rig so high that no one will buy it.
5. Collector's Items - If you have ever priced some of the Collins gear, you know what I am talking about. Sure, it's high quality stuff but it's collectibility is what keeps the prices so high.
6. Room for negotiation - Having sold several pieces of equipment on the swap boards, I always get several lowball offers if I don't list my asking price as FIRM. Some hams intentionally overprice their gear then take less so the buyer will feel like they are getting a bargain.
I'm sure there are more reasons for used gear being overpriced but these are the ones that I have encountered. My standard procedure for pricing equipment is to search all of the swap boards for comparable equipment, take an average and then price the equipment just below the average price.
73,
Lee Hall (NY4T)
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AD6WL on January 30, 2004
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Another thing about eBay is that people get into a bidding frenzy. They see an item they want and with only a small amount of money being bid it seems like a good deal. Later on as the bid is coming to close they get emotional and often times overbid on some of this equipment. I have bid on a lot of items on eBay but by the end it is overpriced so I have to stop bidding. I don't really look on eBay anymore because it is such a waste of time for me.
It would be better if we could unload some of our unused gear to new hams or hams that are in need of gear that may be in a financial bind. This is mainly for more current type gear. I understand that collector quality gear is a different story.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K2WH on January 30, 2004
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Paid $ 1,100 for a 1938 Hallicrafters receiver.
K2WH
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Used Equipment Observation
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by WA3VJB on January 30, 2004
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Hi Curt,
I'll try to build out from some thoughts others posted here already, and you'll see where
I agree with them and would have told you the same thing.
Metaphorically, you are mixing tubes and transistors to come up with a faulty comparison.
If you want functionality, sure, contemporary radios offer far more per dollar and I'm
glad you have found one at your price. But your premise was finding a rig with older
technology, style and features. You didn't explain your motivation beyond "something to play with"
on CW, but because you sloughed off the market after seeing typical prices, I suppose
you were looking for a basic **cheap** radio, and clearly you're unwilling to pay
the nostalgia surcharge.
I used to detest ebay for its revenue-generating poisoning of the market for vintage gear, that
formerly was nearly entirely traded "in the family" among people motivated primarily by a love
for the gear, not the potential profit to be made. But, realistically, an ebay syndrome happens to any
such market once the word gets out. Profiteers move in, the price rises.
The visibility of ebay, and the knowledge of such pricing actually has a benefit of keeping
the unscrupulous from ripping off a widow or the otherwise uninformed pensioner who bought
that "collectable" brand new, kept it ever since, and has no idea of today's worth. I personally
know of two such peddlers, widely reviled, who were pretty much driven out of the "business"
because they kept getting told to go fly a kite as they tried to tell people such rigs were
worth nothing anymore.
In vintage ham radio, a separate market has formed that many never learn about. I've heard it
called being "inside the family," by some fellows I know in upstate New York. Numerically,
it looks increasingly like the best examples of a given model of gear are off the market now,
and "privately held" by people who actually use the rigs and are uninterested in revenue.
In many more cases, we have multiple examples of a given model, kept off the market, but available.
Someone interested must first demonstrate their sincere interest via QSO or other correspondence,
and then possibly procure such an example off-market, at a decent price, and mostly likely with a
handshake understanding that any future sale will also stay inside the family. It's easy to quickly see
whether someone has purchased such a rig on an honest basis, so the standards enforce themselves.
If you had spent more time among appreciative users of such gear, you might have gotten exactly what
you wanted. But, I'm convinced by your perjorative analogy to the old MoPar that you have neither the
time nor the incentive to learn how to appreciate such gear as others have done and who, in other cases, are
willing to pay top dollar to relish these rigs.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N5XM on January 30, 2004
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My opinion is that you have to be willing to do your homework, and a lot of it, and I'm not just talking about learning the value of assorted gear. If you are going to find what you want, you must look through thousands of ads to find good stuff at reasonable prices. You don't get this knowledge and experience overnight. There are some nice deals on nice gear if you are patient enough to sift through all you have to sift through to find it.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KC8VWM on January 30, 2004
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Apparently Curt K3EY isn't the only one with this observation. At last years Hamvention in Dayton I was looking to build a nice station out of a few older rigs.
My original thought was that I could save some money if I bought used equipment in decent condition.
Apparently, this is not the case with used Amateur Gear.
Why?
Well the used Swan 6m SSB rig was priced at $375.00 Then I looked at used HF rigs like the Yeasu FT 101 and it was going for around $350.00
Even after spending $750.00 for two used and very old rigs, I would still not have 2 meter or 440 SSB capability.
I was thinking that this was going to cost me more money than a brand new ICOM 706 MKII.
So I set out looking for a 2m SSB rig. This was particularly hard to find. I found a mobile rig, however it didn't look to be in very good cosmetic condition. It appeared to be a mid 1980 model radio. They wanted $350.00 for it. Had a yellow sign beside it that said "Works Good."
Well after doing the math, all this old technology was going to cost me $1,025 dollars and I still needed to find a power supply to use the mobile rig in my home.
I thought to myself, why is all this used gear costing me almost twice as much money as a brand new ICOM 706 MKII ???? They certainly didn't perform as well and don't have all the bells and whistles either. The old "Swan" 6m tube rig and Yeasu FT 101 would most certainly drift.
As it turns out I ended up spending $900.00 for an almost new Yeasu FT 847 All mode rig in the box, with desk mic and switching power supply included. It had all the CAT cables and came with satellite tracking software included.
It has 100 watts output, FM/AM/SSB/CW even Satellite mode! - covers all bands and all mode operation, has built in DSP. Even does cross band repeater functions.
So why so much money for the old used stuff that doesn't even come close to these capabilities?
I would love to buy an old boat anchor at the hamfest, but if the selling price is going to be the same as the weight of the radio, I think I will pass.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K2WH on January 30, 2004
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It's not the money! It's the adventure. If you are really interested in buying boatanchors you will spend the money.
K2WH
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K2IY on January 30, 2004
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Three Observations:
My hand held 50 dollar cell phone has more complex synthesizer technology and modulation / demodulation circuitry which outperforms any vintage equipment.
If Drake and Collins were still in business; hand building those tube rigs, they would easily sell for higher prices than new state of the art gear.
As they pointed out, buying up estates and reselling it is a big business. Alot of the stuff on eBay has been resold several times. Some resell for higher profit and; others resell because they don't have room for it (physically or financially) and want to buy something else.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KB9BVN on January 30, 2004
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I paid $129 for a brand new in the box 40m xceiver in 1998. I added a keyer and a freq counter to it and I have a grand total of about $170 in it. I have worked all states and about 20 DXCC entities on it.
I paid $35 for another 40m xceiver, I built it, it is rock bound, and I have worked a dozen states with it.
I bought a K1 4 bander loaded for about $550, it's now my main rig, it sits next to the TS140S I bought used for $300.
I have several single band transmitters that I have less than $15 in, and I even use them from time to time for kicks.
I forget what my point is, other than I have as much fun with my Tuna Tin II transmitter, and HB regen receiver as I do with my K1 or the TS140S.
Also, if you can't afford it, don't buy it.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N1YRK on January 30, 2004
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What's funny is comparing the price of used computers with used radios, I computer than cost $3000 five years agois maybe worth $50 now, where that $3000 radio might be worth $2000-$2500. The whole reason is that technological progress in computers is faster. There's a much larger market to spread the development and tooling costs over. Amateur radio is a much smaller market, and not growing. While there is some innovation, it doesn't happen at the leaps and bounds it does in the computer industry. The result it that older radios compete with new ones. This drives the market for new radios smaller, and prices up, in a spiral. Manufacturers need to realize that development costs in amateur radio have to be kept to a minimum, and that tooling needs to be calculated for 500 radios, not 10,000. On the other hand, the build quality is expected to be high, as the radios are considered investment, and not disposable tools that will be outdated in 3 years if they last that long. MFJ has prospered, I believe, with this formula. I don't know what ten-tec's formula is. I do note that both are in the south, a place with much lower labor costs than the old industrial north, where manufacturers such as National met their end.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KA3POY on January 30, 2004
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Just a few editorial comments:
For those who complain about gear selling on the Internet above fair market value, the definition of the term is the price at which the radio would be purchased by a buyer from an unrelated seller. So, by definition, whatever a rig sells for on Ebay in a transaction between two unrelated individuals IS the fair market value.
Also, with regard to repairability of radios, my analysis is that boat anchors are infinitely repairable in virtually any condition with relatively simple hand tools and rudimentary test equipment, while modern rigs with surface mount technology and integrated circuits may be substantially more difficult to fix.(one exception might be finding certain rare transformers for big tube transmitters..)
The one area where I do agree that Ebay prices are counterintuitive are where an item with no guarantee that it actually works is bid up to the price that one would expect for a working, guaranteed rig. In virtually all of business, buyers discount the value of property if there is substantial risk - whereas on Ebay unbusinesslike people assume the risk of a DOA rig without demanding any discount on the value. Weird.
73
N5IIT
was KA3POY
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Used Equipment Observation
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by NJ0E on January 30, 2004
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curt, it's actually *much* cheaper to get on the air
today than in the mid 70's when i was first licensed.
back then, i recall looking at a second hand galaxy
v mkiii transceiver for $330. now you can get second
hand kenwood ts520 for $250. consider what that $330
meant in mid 70's dollars, translated to today?
as others have pointed out, this is in part a reaction
to the "consumerization" of ham gear. in time, when
a gear with surface mount components develops a
problem, it will be "totalled"; worth less than the
cost to send it to the shop to be fixed, yet not
repairable by the average amateur either. "totalled"!
vintage gear can still be repaired by a reasonably
skilled amateur. the latest gear i see advertised
leaves me cold; i ask myself, "how could i fix this
when something goes wrong?".
i think ten-tec's quality "under the hood" is a cut
above the imported units. feature by feature, their
gear costs much more, but i think many amateurs
consider they will retain their performance longer.
i've pretty much decided for the time being to build
kits. i like cw, so the gear i need is relatively
simple. plus the assembly/test instructions are
useful for debugging any issues when they develop.
73,
scott nj0e
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Used Equipment Observation
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by W6PMR3 on January 30, 2004
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Informed is the key word here. I thought everyone knew that you can buy a 50 watt two meter radio, new for around $150 from AES and HRO. Yet every week on E-Bay there are several people selling the SAME radios for the "Buy-it-now" price for around $200.
Week in and week out I watch uninformed buyers pay $50 more for the same radio they can buy in a store.
Makes no sense except that those who are buying on the "Bay" are just uninformed on the price of new radios.
By the way, a real, restored 1970/71 HemiCuda drop top is now closing in on ONE MILLION DOLLARS !!!! Not bad for a Plymouth that sold for about $4,500:00.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N9WQ on January 30, 2004
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its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it!!!
bottom line!!!
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guarenteed DOA.
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by AH6GI on January 30, 2004
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I seek out and bid on "this radio is guarenteed to arrive dead, if it starts to work within 30 days, return for a full refund" units.
The reason, it's a known commodity. I enjoy fixing and refurbing the old radios. Also as pointed out, with simple hand tools and modern test equipment, 1960's and 1970's SSB radios are relatively easy to repair.
My Tektronix TDS-210 dual channel, computerized LCD oscilloscope, Aceco frequency counter, and various digital multimeters are a big help compared to, oh, that Triplett portable multimeter that we all had in the 1960's.
Add in the docs on the web, the schematic CD's, and technical help and encouragement available at sites like groups.yahoo.com/group/amateur-repairs and there is nothing that can't be fixed.
I have noticed (and comment on my site, www.kiyoinc.com/heathstuff.html) that there are folks who are bidding aggressively on guarenteed dead boatanchors.
They are not stupid (as some speculate). Let me say it again, boatanchor radios work well. These will never, EVER be made again. I expect that the prices will spiral up within the next 5 years.
If you want to experience band cruising with an SX-88, or hear the sound of AM on a 75A-3, you will pay the freight.
By the way, my friend's Hemi-cuda convertible is NOT for sale. He knows that he can get $1,000,000 for it. Here's the shocker, he paid less than $30,000 for it and at the time, paid top dollar. It wasn't that long ago.
So.
Everyone who feels that the old radios are not worth the going price. Please, keep selling. Drag it to a hamfest, I'll be there with cash money. So will others. Put it up on the 'bay. I have money in my paypal account.
I'm watching a Rockwell Collins KWM-2A, 3074177381 $2,100.00, 2 days to go. A HALLICRAFTERS SX-100 SHORTWAVE RECEIVER 3074227389 $343.87, 3 days to go.
If plastic, AM table radios, hundreds of thousands made, can sell for $30,000, an SX-100 at $343 is cheap.
or not, your choice.
de ah6gi/4
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RE: guarenteed DOA.
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by KE4DRN on January 30, 2004
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hi
ah6gi is right, if it is older rig you can fix it or have someone fix it for you. Most parts replaced easy without special equipment. Better replacement parts are available today then when the radio was new.
As for the higher prices on ebay, many sellers have built up a reputation for used clean gear that you don't get at the local hamfests. One reason is many sell on the internet instead of hauling stuff all over the state at the hamfests.
Sure, sometimes that little voice inside your head tells you to bid higher, I'm not going to let someone else get it !
Recently a kenwood ts-600 was up on ebay, buy it now for $ 159 or starting bid of $ 50. I knew this radio would go for over $ 300 based on other auctions.
I bid $ 100 so the buy it now would go away.
Seller got $ 347 for the radio !
Many people out there have money to spend, retired, invested their money, inheritance or just work two jobs like me.
We can't take it with us !
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6GI on January 31, 2004
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I disagree that the price of antique radios is tied to the age of the ham population. While there might be a relationship, why does antique furniture from the 1800's command a premium? No one from that era is still alive.
Why does any antique have any value? Look at all the hideous junk on those Antique TeeVee shows, those ceramics, that weird furniture.
I can buy a fine modern chair with plastic flippies at the Office Depot, a chair that is more ergonomic and comfortable than any $10,000 antique and for only $59.95.
Ditto a desk. Plastic over particle board, why spend tens of thousands for an antique.
I'm not guarenteeing that my SX-100 or Drake 2-B or Signal/One CX7A will be worth $10,000 but if you said, "you can have either the Signal/One or that colonial era chest of drawers. You can't sell them. You have to keep and use them."
I know which I'd pick.
Not everyone will agree but I can't see myself pulling open the drawers, hour after hour, grinning while telling folk about the cherry finish.
I can imagine tuning the Signal/One up and down the band and asking for signal reports, "How does the RF clipper sound this time?"
Think about all the folks who have hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in various collectables that offer little enjoyment compared to, say, a National Cosmic Blue NC-270?
I ran into a fellow who collects 1960's guitars. Big whoop. I bet he can't play them. I bet he's got them hanging on the wall and LOOKS at them.
Fire up that Hammarlund HQ-170. That's real fun.
de ah6gi/4
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N6CIC on January 31, 2004
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Curt has made some interesting points which have generated equally interesting responses. I actually don't think it is such a bad situation if you consider the fact that a good part of the pricing is due to hams seeking to collect a piece of equipment they couldn't afford in high school or college. Take the Collins 75A-4. According to Ray Moore "Communications Receivers, The Vacuum Tube Era", it sold for $645 in 1955-1957. Imagine what that would sell for today after inflation! I would have given anything to have owned a 75A-4 when I was in high school, but all I could afford was a used Hallicrafters S-38. The only used rig that I can't believe the prices people are getting for today is the SX-88...whew, $4-5000 on eBay!
There are quite a few decent rigs available on eBay, as long as one doesn't jump when a seller expects an outrageous price-just let it go. A few example I have seen in the last few months: TS-50S, TS-440S, TS-850S, TS-530S, FT-840, FT-920, FT-990, FT-757, IC-730, IC-735, IC-740, IC-746 (earlier versions).
73s,
Scott
N6CIC
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by HEAVYMETAL on January 31, 2004
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I think Ebay bidders don't do alot of shopping.
I agree with the original post in that if your going to pay $300.00-400.00 dollars for a used rig, save a hundrend or so more and buy a new low end rig, Yaesu, Kenwood or Icom, with a warranty, that probably outperforms the old one.
Ebay does'nt apply to ludricrous prices for radios but anything else.
I have a small machine shop and have seen small mini lathes go for over $500.00..plus shipping.
You can get the exact same lathe for $299.99 brand new in the box.
30 year old craftsman lathe go for $500-800...and then needing work or parts to make a decent cut.
You can get a brand new lathe, bigger, better built delivered to your door for $699.99 in the same class.
Sellers know most people don't shop and make you believe it's the only game in town..It's not.
Shop around.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6GI on January 31, 2004
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VJD: "In vintage ham radio, a separate market has formed that many never learn about. I've heard it
called being "inside the family," by some fellows I know in upstate New York. Numerically,
it looks increasingly like the best examples of a given model of gear are off the market now,
and "privately held" by people who actually use the rigs and are uninterested in revenue.
In many more cases, we have multiple examples of a given model, kept off the market, but available.
Someone interested must first demonstrate their sincere interest via QSO or other correspondence,
and then possibly procure such an example off-market, at a decent price, and mostly likely with a
handshake understanding that any future sale will also stay inside the family. It's easy to quickly see
whether someone has purchased such a rig on an honest basis, so the standards enforce themselves. "
ah. I hadn't thought of that. Recently, I was *given* a working SX-100. I am cleaning it up and am working with the giver to complete the restoration. He has offered to make some parts for it if I will do the mechanical work.
While we had not discussed any post sale agreement, other than he asked that if I "took it to the dump, please don't tell him."
I've heard that some of the car types prefer to deal "in the family".
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6RR on January 31, 2004
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Living in Hawaii on one of the outer Islands (Hawaii) used radio equipment is very hard to come by. I have bought 3 HF rigs on ebay all Kenwoods a 520, 430S, 530S (still waiting on the 530). All of them have worked just fine so far and the prices are ok. On the mainland you guys have a MUCH BETTER market than here so we have to pay the higher prices just to get any used equipment. Just recently I put a wanted ad here on eHam for a adapter to use a 4 pin mic on a 8 pin Kenwood I had 4 reply's and one ham wanted if you can belive this $60.00 bucks for one they cost $15.00 new in 87. I got one for $10.
So I just want to let you know that some of us have no choice but to pay the higer prices:( Anyone have a working 930 for $150.00 please let me know.
Roland AH6RR
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KE1JR on January 31, 2004
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I was looking for a used 2 meter radio on ebay, used ones were selling for more than the radio new from HRO with free shipping. Got the IC-2100H for 125 shipped, compared to 135+shipping on ebay used....When they had that special for 125 I shouldv'e stocked up on the 2100H and resold them.
I've bought two radios used, an Azden 2500 and a cheap HT. In each case I only saved about 30 dollars from the cost to get one new that has better performance and featurers. Wasn't worth it because I ended up just getting new ones a little later.
Unless you are looking for a specific radio that is out of production get your gear new.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N2TMC on January 31, 2004
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Prices of rigs are very high. That much is a given. The demand is high so the prices follow. I'm a disabled ham on a very limited fixed income and I've been looking for a rig for some time. Everything out there is a 9.5 out of a 10. There must be some really careful hams out there that take care of their equipment like it's in the shack at the ARRL. Where are the 3 out of 10's that can be had for a decent price and fixed up? I certainly have not found them on ebay. But the search continues!
73
George
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KB5IAV on January 31, 2004
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<<<In Marketing, one of the first principles to learn is that people (and manufacturers) don't set prices, the market does.
As long as someone's willing to pay X for Y, Y will always be worth X.
eBay is an awful place to buy ham gear, although some claim wonderful results. I don't see exactly how that's possible, since everything I see listed for sale on eBay is available locally to me for less money, and I can go try it out first; haven't found any exception to that, yet. Kind of like buying stuff from the television retailers and infomercial sellers: I've never seen any item on "QVC" or "HSN" or any of these TV-shops sell for a price as low as I can find at the local stores in L.A. And that includes the "this product is only available from us and will never be sold in stores!" items. Pretty laughable.
But, Caveat Emptor prevails!
WB2WIK/6>>>
When buying from Ebay, QVC, Wal Mart, etc., I have 3 words of advice: KNOW YOUR PRICES.
I've never shopped for ham equipment on Ebay, but I have shopped for computer parts, video tapes, and books on a few occasions.
When bidding on computer parts, I found people bidding hte prices of stuff up as high or higher than I could get from a mail order shop on Pricewatch.com or in some cases, a local store. Only one time have I found a good deal on a new computer part, a 3 1/2inch floppy drive, on Ebay. It was a name brand drive and I saved several dollars over both mail order and local retail price on it.
As for books, I did find a couple of used books in great condition for half the price of what buying them new would have goes me. Those were good purchases.
With the video tapes it's hard to say, they weren't expensive(each under $20) but at the same time, they were both used and out of print and I hadn't seen them anywhere else, so placing a market value on them isn't easy.
As for those who have had good results on Ebay with ham radio gear, computer parts, etc., I believe it is possible, as long as the bidder knows their prices, decides how much they are willing to spend and sticks to it, and doesn't get caught up in the rapid fire bidding that often happens during the last minutes of an auction.
However, with so many people getting caught up in the bidding, and the psychology of wanting to win, those good deals are hard to find. Hard to find, but not impossible.
KB5IAV
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KD5VGB on January 31, 2004
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I purchased a 9.5/ 10 FT 767 w 6 &2m a little over a year ago from a soon to be SK for top dollar. I later picked up a good one on Ebay for $450 w 2m because I liked the first one and wanted a parts radio. I have the first at home and had the 2nd in the RV, I just transfered the 6mtr module between radios.
In Dec last year when the price of the FT-920 went down to around $900, I put the good one on ebay and got over $700 for it. Boy! I thought I made a real good deal. I ordered a FT 920.
I set the 920 up right next to my 767 and went head to head with the 2 radios. The DSP and the optional AM & CW filters in the 920 do not hold a candle the 767 front end. The 767 can pull cw and ssb out of nowhere and the super duper dsp does not even know they are there. At first I thought it might be the difference in the speakers so I connected them to the same speaker, tuned to the same freq. I easily tuned the 767 to a below noise level cw signal and switched speaker input to the 920. I spent 45 min doing every thing n the book and then some and could not pull that cw out of the hash.
Well, I'm in the market for another 767 cuz if you can't hear em you can't work em.
Yes, the old obsolete 767 is worth as much to me as a new fancy box full of bells and whistles with no ears.
I am sick about selling the 767. It is too bad that there are no local ( less than 400mi. ) ham stores so I could have taken a test drive instead of relying on articals and printed specifications.
Yes, the 920 now sits on the shelf next to my Drake 4 and FTdx401. They also have better front ends as they have also gone head to head with the super duper dsp ding ding 920. Have to get some enjoyment out of it, watching it get beat out by xtal and mechanical filter cascades.
Yep!! the NEW radios keep the price of the old ones high.
JMHO
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KD5VGB on January 31, 2004
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Just as a foot note::
When I put the radios head to head I verify the calibration on both radios so they are looking for the same fox in the same hole.
73
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K7VO on January 31, 2004
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KD5VGB's experience is not unique. I have tested the 6m receiver performance of the NCG 7/21/50 against many newer, expensive, "better" radios. Rigs like the Icom IC-575H and Yaesu FT-650 couldn't pull out signals the old NCG rig did. I spent a lot of money for inferior recivers. Those rigs sure did have bells and whistles, though. I've even tested it against a friend's IC-756ProII. The Icom is the equal of the circa 1985 NCG rig at only 10 times the price.
I bought my first NCG 7/21/50 new on closeout back in 1987. I've had one other. Last year when finances were tight I sold both. I came to really regret it. Guess where I found another? Yep, eBay. Price: $265.05.
Do you still think I should rush right out and buy a new, low end HF+6m rig. I thought about it. The NCG is a 10W QRP rig with a built in power supply. The closest thing to it is an IC-703Plus. It would be cool to have all the bands in the rig, the built in ATU, and the small size. It surely would. Have you read about all the premature failures in the IC-703? I sure have. Just look at eHam reviews or the IC-703 reflector on Yahoo! Groups. Oh, and it would cost three times what my NCG did. When it failed, though, I'd likely have a warranty.
Maybe I should go high power even though I'm a die hard QRPer. Tell me: would an IC-706MkIIG or a Yaesu FT-857 or a Yaesu FT-897 have the same performance on 6m as my current rig? 6m is my favorite band, so, for me, this is the single most important issue.
Would you care to explain to me one more time why I really should buy new and why all this used gear is overpriced? I really am not quite getting it.
73,
Caity
K7VO
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Used Equipment Observation
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by N7TRZ on February 1, 2004
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I have gear from various eras (well, back to the 70's).
I just wonder if it isn't the fact that even though the latest and greatest is no-doubt more affordable than the older gear was, the newer stuff just does not lend itself to being worked on. Micro-sized parts crowded together with no room for human-sized tools. Inserted in a specific order, the reverse of which is required to get a failed part out. (ever wonder how they get the spark plugs into those 3 rear cylinders? They put em in before the engine goes into the car).
Maybe people are willing to pay for something with a larger descrete parts count that actually has enough room inside to work on.
I will always have a relatively late model radio, currently an IC-207H, but I hold no illusions it will require no ham skills, but rather cold hard cash, to do any fixing on it. I'll take an old IC-22 any day, even if I have to trim the rocks every couple years...
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K3EY on February 1, 2004
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After all the replies I maintain my stand.
Several people explained the ins and outs of buying and selling along with the psychology involved. I have been doing it for over 20 years and very familiar with the in and outs, the right and wrongs. I started out with the yellow sheets, along with horse trader nets on 75, and 40 meters, then of course internet sites such as this one and the sellers favorite site in the world, eBay. FYI…sometimes bargains can be had on eBay, BUT, one must be first and fast. Hopefully everyone else is either working or sleeping because the seller failed to take into account the time when listing his item, then you as a buyer, win, sometimes.
This article brought out the boat anchor guys spouting all the virtues of the old gigantic 200 lbs mental boxes and how they are to end all. To all those guys, God Bless You. There is a place for all of us in this hobby, but it’s not my cup of tea. You can still listen to the AM versus SSB 30 year wars on 75 meters almost nightly if you feel that is entertainment.
Some old boat anchor guys spend their time restoring making every detail look as new, they deserve every penny they can get out of those old classics. As far as the rusty ones, I personally would give them away to someone who wanted it if I had one, because I sure don’t. The size, weight and heat doesn’t do anything for me. Takes up too much space, it’s just not me.
The remarks you can’t work on the new ones; I don’t care, I never worked on the old ones I owned. I worked in avionics for 7 years sitting at a bench for a living, and built many QRP kits. I had my fill, I want to operate not solder.
A few remarked on how the old radios are just as good and ever better than the new ones, ok, thanks for the laugh. I have owned more radios than most people can count in the last twenty years, from the low end QRP kits to the top on the line latest greatest. All the rice boxes and Tec Tec, Drake, Atlas, Heathkits, and the other American made boat anchors that are now worth their weight in gold. I still prefer the latest greatest, except the ones that run HF to light which seems too much.
My next investment will be the Ten Tec Orion which is light years ahead of anything every made to date, including the new ICOM coming out that costs as much as a good car. Software controlled with simple updates is the future, and the future is what interests me.
I thank everyone for their replies. Everyone is different having different tastes, needs and wants. This hobby is so diversified it can accommodate everyone’s interest with room left over and that why you hear people on CW saying things like; Name is Mike, been hamming 68 years, rig here is not a Viking Valiant
Vy 73
Curt
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6GI on February 1, 2004
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Curt: "A few remarked on how the old radios are just as good and ever better than the new ones, ok, thanks for the laugh. I have owned more radios than most people can count in the last twenty years, from the low end QRP kits to the top on the line latest greatest. All the rice boxes and Tec Tec, Drake, Atlas, Heathkits, and the other American made boat anchors that are now worth their weight in gold. I still prefer the latest greatest, except the ones that run HF to light which seems too much."
You miss the point.
Here are some factoids. My SB-303 and SB-102 have .25 uV sensitivity. My QTH in the city has an S-7 noise level.
I have an SB-303 with cascaded Heathkit SSB crystal filters.
I've measured a Heathkit LMO over a week, it drifed less than 200 Hz.
This is "good enough" electrical performance.
On the SB-303, the attenuator, RF gain, and AF gain are all real mechanical pots with large knobs on them. The LMO is a mechanical friction drive that feels like oil on glass. The cap is a precision worm drive.
Then there's the feel of the Collins PTO.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K3EY on February 1, 2004
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Here are factoids: Been there done that owning both of those rigs in years past. Numbers quoted mean nothing to me, I don't care what they say or if the gear movement feels like Collins or not. Factoids are I didn't miss the point one iota. I don't like the old stuff, never did, never will. What is your cup of tea is not for me. My Icom Pro is way more fun to operate, way more convenient, and with great DSP way less irritating on noisy bands. You can keep your old boat anchors and I'll keep playing with the new gear using digital modes and DSP and different configurations not possible on the old rigs of bygone days which were stepping stones for the IMPROVEMENTS we enjoy in today’s modern radios.
You guys can keep paying top bucks for yesterday’s dreams and I'll spend less and have more for the buck along with tons of fun.
Vy 73
Curt
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6GI on February 1, 2004
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Hey no problem. If you like it, great.
The point is, many folk don't like knobs the size of toothpaste caps and pushing rubber buttons with all the ergonomics of a $9.95 TV remote control. That lite-grey on black look of modern rigs, ugh. I don't like that either. I don't like the tiny lettering or strange abbreviations.
Just don't fall for the hype that new=better performance. It doesn't. While my SB-303 LMO only has about a half kHz readout (as verified by a modern frequency counter), an SSB signal is 2, 3 kHz wide. So what's the point of a .01 kHz readout?
If you like "video game" radio displays, that's OK too. It doesn't make you (anyone) a better operator.
Again, if you like it. Good for you.
I don't. I prefer an analog, mechanical device. The big components that I can work with and fix.
I do have a computerized oscilloscope in my shack, my Tektronix TDS-210 LCD digital scope is as modern as any ICOM or Yaesu radio, costs almost as much.
No surprise, my 20 year old Tektronix 2215 has a clearer and easier to see display. The green, analog waveform doesn't pixelate like an LCD trace.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KD5ALU on February 1, 2004
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WB2WIK says "eBay is an awful place to buy ham gear, although some claim wonderful results. I don't see exactly how that's possible, since everything I see listed for sale on eBay is available locally"
You are lucky to have a Ham store Locally. Any radio I buy, must be by mail order since the closest Ham store to me is Out of state. As to E-bay, Great deals are there to be had OR sometimes you get had. This happens with used equipment no matter where you get it. My main HT and HF radio actually came from a local Pawn shop. Both for less than half of new retail and both radios are still in production. I have bought radios off E-bay too with good results. Bottom line, look for the best deal wherever you can find it and realize that you can be had regaurdless of the source.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by RobertKoernerExAE7G on February 1, 2004
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“I don't like the old stuff, never did, never will.”
An excellent reason to keep doing what you have been doing.
For many people it is MORE FUN to buy used gear, and play/restore it.
Some people like VHF/UHF, some people like HF; some people like WAS some people like DXCC; some people like rag chewing, some people like contesting.
Some people eat vile nasty tasting foods like beats!
Have FUN
Bob
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K7VO on February 1, 2004
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Curt, I am very glad you enjoy your Icom IC-756Pro so much. It's a great radio, no doubt. You bought it new, right? That means you have more invested in that one radio than I have in my entire shack, including base, mobile, and portable rigs. That includes equipment on 2m, 1.25m, and 70cm, none of which are included in an Icom IC-756Pro.
I also have redundancy. I did, in fact, have a 2m all mode rig on my desk develop a problem. I wrote a reputable service tech I know and was told what the probable problem is and what he would likely charge to fix it. It's not going to cost much so I packed it up and I'm sending it to him for repair. In the meanwhile I took a 2m SSB/CW portable I have and put it on my desk so I'm still on the air. I can't do that if I put all the proverbial eggs in one basket.
I have already pointed out that the rigs I have perform well. I don't see what I would gain selling them all off, adding more cash, and buying a new Icom. Besides, I'd need not only an IC-756ProII but an IC-910H as well, plus something for 222 FM. I could easily spend, what, maybe $5500 to do that? Well... if money isn't an issue, sure, that may be worth it to you. Money is an issue for me. Oh, and there's still no backup rig if I spend that much, is there? There's no mobile rig either. Plus portable gear. Make that $8,000 or so. Hmmm....
Don't get me wrong. I bought a new mobile antenna and triplexer at HRO very recently along with one of the DC multiple outlet power strips with the lovely Anderson power poles. I couldn't save much going used.
The fact remains that I can put a very respectable station on the air for a few hundred bucks on the used market. I can't do that new.
Not your cup of tea? When you said that I think you hit the nail on the head exactly. For me and for my budget used gear just plain makes sense, as it does for a whole lot of hams.
Oh, and no, I don't have any "boat anchors". It's all solid state, somewhat modern gear.
73,
Caity
K7VO
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K1FLH on February 1, 2004
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I agree with Kurt that the price structure is weird..
But I am one of the guys he refers to when buying
used (40 yr old) radio gear..one receiver and one
xmitter..
I know it is not as good as the new gear...and price
wise, I am paying too much..but just to go back
in time when I look at these jewels I am so proud of,
and just spend time LOOKING at them, to me is sure
worth what I paid...
I do the same with my OLD rifles...polish, clean
them and admire them...sort of odd but GREAT..I
guess lots of operators realize what I am saying..
Remember back during WW2 and seeing my first radio
station at Bedford Springs Pa Radio School...TDE
Xmitter and TBL Xmitter and the OLD Hammerlund and
National Receivers..Wow, they were in communication
with the Sampson Boot Camp. up in NY State..I just
looked with such a feeling I cannot describe even
today...it was great, seeing for the first time
a real station and it looked so powerful...thing
is, all that gear, the xmitters looking like robot
or large black refrigs..and only as I realized later
in life, only 500watts...took up lots of room and
today the linier??..Big time..but first station I
owned was a 5 Ft or more Rack Transmitter...Pwr sup,
Modulator section, control panel, Rf section, and
on top the VFO...good old days..73 Jim
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K3EY on February 1, 2004
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I confess. I am a sucker for the old BC radios, mostly the 5 tube jobs, the plastic ones that are also way over priced, but yet I buy them.
I had a big collection a few years back but sold most off for a profit. I am now back into buying some more, but only the ones professionally restored by a guy I know personally. I am hoping they are an investment. If not, I enjoy them regardless. I go mostly for the ones that have AM/SW and sometimes the old police band.
I also confess that the guys on 75 and 40 meters running 40 plus year old gear on AM really sound great! They are a breed I admire, but I stick to the newer radios with memories and DSP and etc.
73
Curt/K3ey
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Used Equipment Observation
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by VE3WGO on February 1, 2004
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I guess the radios that work ok, and parts are easy to get, will keep their value. But as more radios in the 70s and 80s started using custom parts that are getting impossible to replace, then what?
The Russians, Czechs, and Chinese companies that are churning out replacement vacuum tubes are keeping the old tube equipment alive.
Not sure that the highly integrated modern solid state stuff will keep its value as well. My TenTec Paragon has some weird flourescent display drivers made by Sprague, and an obsolete microprocessor, and RF chips that have been out of production for almost 10 years. I worry about fixing that beast. But my Heathkit HW-12 just has common vaccum tubes that are available on the web in many places, with almost no custom components in it.
Funny isn't it? If you can fix it, it will keep its value.
But I like digital display, DSP noise reduction, and VFO memories. They make working in our ever-increasing RF-polluted bands possible.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by AB8RU on February 2, 2004
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I occasionally find a deal here and there I guess its called timing. of course I have a Hamfriend who usually finds me something for a good price, I am going to call him to pick the item I need.
I don't plan on any hamfests until June this year anyway, XYL & I are working on a Vacation Plan right now.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K4III on February 2, 2004
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People must be stupid enough to buy them or they AREN'T REALLY for sale!
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by AH6GI on February 2, 2004
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WGO: "I guess the radios that work ok, and parts are easy to get, will keep their value. But as more radios in the 70s and 80s started using custom parts that are getting impossible to replace, then what?
Not sure that the highly integrated modern solid state stuff will keep its value as well. My TenTec Paragon has some weird flourescent display drivers made by Sprague, and an obsolete microprocessor, and RF chips that have been out of production for almost 10 years. I worry about fixing that beast. But my Heathkit HW-12 just has common vaccum tubes that are available on the web in many places, with almost no custom components in it.
Funny isn't it? If you can fix it, it will keep its value."
I might have a problem w/ my Signal/One CX7A and possibly the ICOM IC-720A (which I bought new with all the options, about $2,000.)
I have several Heathkit SB's. These are simple enough to keep running.
I gotta clear up one point. The tube-audio people say that tube audio is superior to solid state.
I don't agree with that sentiment. The old boatanchors are "good enough". Antennas, QTH (ground conductivity, angle to the horizon, altitude), and local noise levels, count for more than DSP and any of the features in modern rigs.
The newer radios are better but they are not that much better.
I suspect that the new radios are "throwaways" much like a VCR or 20 inch tube TV set.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KO4RN on February 3, 2004
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It's very simple. Some hams have money to burn. Just take a look at any front issue of CQ or QST. If I weren't a ham, I'd think both these issues were showing NASA stations capable of communicating with our new Mars land rovers!! Does any ham really need all that? It's amazing what one can do with an old TS-830S and an Alpha Delta antenna. I work mostly cw. Bought my 830S in 1991 for about $700 and I could sell it today for about as much. Throw in SCAF-1 audio filter and if I hear it, I will work it..eventually. That's all the selectivity or station I need. Meaning to each his own.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KE4IZA on February 4, 2004
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This has always been the case. People only remember what they paid for an item and for some reason can not comprehend that as time goes by and newer and better items replace what they have the value goes down. In the case of collector radios or antiques the value is simply how bad someone wants it and what are they willing to pay.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by W9WHE on February 4, 2004
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If the ARRL's "risky scheme" to convert all techs to generals happens, the price of used equipment is only going to go one way.....UP! UP! UP!
W9WHE
Demand a recall vote for ARRL directors.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by KD4HZW on February 4, 2004
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For many years, word-of-mouth and Hamfests were the main sources of used ham gear. Large metropolitan areas had large quantities of available stuff. The laws of supply and demand dictated lower prices. EBay,QTH.com and others have given those in "fly-over" country the same access to that (limited) supply that we city dwellers have always had. As a result...More demand, less supply, higher prices.
And the saddest part of this paradigm... it's brought about the demise of many good hamfests
K2SMD(ex. KD4HZW)
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by N8TPI on February 5, 2004
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to N4OZI..First off i cant agree that boat anchors will come down in price and i can tell you why..Im a tube audiophile and i own several pieces of mcintosh and dynaco and fisher,sherwood,heathkit and new audio research.I collect and restore this stuff including vintage boat anchors..If you look at the tube market as of late it increasing by exponential numbers...There is groove tubes and new sensor..JJ shuguang.. reflector..and valve art just to name a few..The audio tube market alone last year world wide sold 2.9 bilion us dollars in audio tubes alone..Each year its been increasing 20%.The new recording studios many are swicting over to vacuum tube audio recording and processing because of the availibility of tubes.Example marantz model 9 tube amps were 300 dolars a piece new in 1968..A pair of the comand upwards of 20000 dolars in japan and the minimun ive seen is like 9000.Mac gear is the same way,not quite as high tho..SX88 hallicrafter reciever is bringing 5 to 7 thousand dollars on ebay.I kinda thought as you did at first thiking gee if i wait the price will come way down because the newer generation of kids are unfamiliar with tube gear.No way.They know now just what tube gear is and its value just from having a musician frind that plays guitar..Go into a best buy or a circuit and find a kid 20 to 30 years old and mention you have a tube amp and ill almost guarantee he will start a conversation about it and how much he likes it..Not all kids but at least one in every crowd..These kids today are smart and they know what the stuff is and what its worth..They live on the internet so they should.Tubes just look kewl so i belive boat anchors will continue to command big bucks..They just sound phenomial and can be repaired.Someone mentioned about japanese radios having poor resale value..This is true because they are very hard to service and even the factory service center cant repair many of them other than the ten tecs which do bring a high price also.So maybe in 15 years they might come down and maybe not.I doubt it tho.Not with all the new tube comopanies starting up again and tube amps being built.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by N8TPI on February 5, 2004
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to N4OZI..First off i cant agree that boat anchors will come down in price and i can tell you why..Im a tube audiophile and i own several pieces of mcintosh and dynaco and fisher,sherwood,heathkit and new audio research.I collect and restore this stuff including vintage boat anchors..If you look at the tube market as of late it increasing by exponential numbers...There is groove tubes and new sensor..JJ shuguang.. reflector..and valve art just to name a few..The audio tube market alone last year world wide sold 2.9 bilion us dollars in audio tubes alone..Each year its been increasing 20%.The new recording studios many are swicting over to vacuum tube audio recording and processing because of the availibility of tubes.Example marantz model 9 tube amps were 300 dolars a piece new in 1968..A pair of the comand upwards of 20000 dolars in japan and the minimun ive seen is like 9000.Mac gear is the same way,not quite as high tho..SX88 hallicrafter reciever is bringing 5 to 7 thousand dollars on ebay.I kinda thought as you did at first thiking gee if i wait the price will come way down because the newer generation of kids are unfamiliar with tube gear.No way.They know now just what tube gear is and its value just from having a musician frind that plays guitar..Go into a best buy or a circuit and find a kid 20 to 30 years old and mention you have a tube amp and ill almost guarantee he will start a conversation about it and how much he likes it..Not all kids but at least one in every crowd..These kids today are smart and they know what the stuff is and what its worth..They live on the internet so they should.Tubes just look kewl so i belive boat anchors will continue to command big bucks..They just sound phenomial and can be repaired.Someone mentioned about japanese radios having poor resale value..This is true because they are very hard to service and even the factory service center cant repair many of them other than the ten tecs which do bring a high price also.So maybe in 15 years they might come down and maybe not.I doubt it tho.Not with all the new tube comopanies starting up again and tube amps being built.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K4RLB on February 7, 2004
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It's kinda like when you're "young" you don't "appreciate" that muscle car you owned...but when you're much older , it was the BEST CAR YOU EVER OWNED. Same with a lot of people buying older ham gear...it was a piece they always wanted and never had. It's called "NOSTALGIA"
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K0PD on February 7, 2004
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As one or more ham's have replied it's economics 101..Maybe after what ever Democrat get's to be president again they'll regulate and set prices and tax the older equipment...They'll make it fair for every one!Except the seller......
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by WB4QNG on February 7, 2004
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I agree I don't understand people. You can buy a new HF rig for $500 and a 2 meter mobile for $149 yet people don't think anything about a lot more than that for a used one. I think any 15 year old HF rig should be selling for about $250 and mobile 2 meter rigs should be selling for about $50 but what do I know. If I had any since I would have bought a bunch of the R/S two meter and 10 meter rigs when they went out of the ham bus. They sold those things for $69 now they are EBAY for around $100
TERRY
WB4QNG
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K0DOG on February 8, 2004
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I agree completely. Used equipment is more often than not greatly overpriced.
Last year I listed an IC-2100H for sale with the following description: "used exclusively mobile by a heavy cigar smoker. Many dings and scratches."
The listed price was high enough that no sane person would look at.
I was deluged with many responses.
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Used Equipment Observation
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by K1CJS on February 8, 2004
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I really don't know if this was yet brought up, but the older equipment is a heck of a lot easier to work on, and one of the things some of us amateurs like to do is work on and or modify our own equipment.
Just look at the newer rigs, and you'll see SMT parts, parts small enough to be overlooked, let alone for the leads to be seen to be soldered to the board.
I believe that is one of the reasons that older equipment will continue to be higher priced and somewhat scarce.
Just my 2 cents worth. 73!
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Used Equipment Observation
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by KC8WUC on February 8, 2004
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I believe that most people selling equipment are of the same mindset of people selling used cars... their radio is worth more because they bought it new and feel it's worth more because they (presumably) took good care of it. Case in point: my daughter "inherited" a 1989 Tempo from my father-in-law. While there was nothing mechanically wrong with it and the body was in good shape, the car wasn't worth more than $900 tops. He was insistent that we get full insurance coverage on it because this car had less than 50,000 miles on it. No amount of arguing or reasoning was going to break through his perception that this car was worth the $10,000+ that he paid for it fourteen years earlier.
The remainder of radios that are marked up or are for sale at higher than expected prices (in comparison to the price of new radios) are probably due to the Barnum effect. As others have said in their postings, a sucker is born every minute. If the market will bear these prices, then they'll continue to sell high; if not, then the sellers will have to adjust their prices accordingly. I, for one, will not buy equipment anywhere near the new price on eBay or eHam if it is used unless it has been factory modified with some exceptional filter or conversion (i.e., DSP, Collins filter, MARS/CAP, etc.).
73
Michael, KC8WUC
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K8JDC on February 9, 2004
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Well, I'm late getting in on this topic, so my thoughts may go largely un-noticed, but that's okay.
I have two thoughts in this area. First, I totally agree that most used equipment is overpriced. I see item after item priced WAY too close to a new one. (Used 706MKIIG's for instance are frequently priced at levels within a few bucks of a new one.) I searched for a used 706 for a long time. HRO finally ran an Icom special and I picked mine up at an excellent price. I know these things are popular and that there's a seller's market to an extent, but I when it comes to stuff like a radio, a used one just isn't worth new money because I don't know how it's been treated. The newer versions also have the latest firmware with the latest fixes. I like to wait a couple of years for the manufacturer to fix the bugs and then get one. I also see many used accessories like power meters priced within a few dollars of new. If that's the case, I'd rather buy new and know what kind of life my toy has lived.
_Rant on_
Secondly, my larger complaint is that I see WAY too much stuff listed as NIB, never used, never turned on, and so on. Who buys a $1000 radio and then decides to sell it after NOT EVER TURNING IT ON? I just don't believe these people. A quick search of the QTH ads showed 18 ads with NIB! "NIB - only removed from the box to take the photo". What? I don't buy it. I would rather they say "mint" or "like new". Don't tell me it's never been on - I just don't believe you. I can honestly say that I've never responded to an ad that said "NIB". If you drive the car off the lot, it's yours and no longer "new". Sell it as used like all us honest people. IT AIN'T NEW!
_Rant off_
JDC
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by KA4ETR on May 11, 2004
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You're absolutely right! Old gear prices are out of control. For instance Collins S-Line $1200 and UP! Drake R4-C $400 & UP! Hallicrafters SX-88 to the SKY!!!! Collins 75A-4, I'd have to sell my house, car and wife to get one!
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by K1YDA on November 15, 2004
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Dream on. y 15 year old who just got his first license really LOVES my old S line and can see the difference betwen it and the plastic faced cheap stereo looking stuff which gets sold today. Some of that old Japanese gear with real metal in it is almost as well made. BTW just cause it hase eight bizillion bit dsp does not mean the basic receiver is
any good.
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RE: Used Equipment Observation
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by N0TONE on February 6, 2005
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Some 15 year old radios have a reputation that they never break. Others have a reputation for always being in the shop. Which one will the brand new rig become? You won't know until it's 15 years old.
Key performance number on any HF transceiver: Receiver IMD-limited dynamic range. The manufacturers NEVER specify this, but the ARRL has measured it for a long time. If you look up the old QST reviews of radios, you'll find that, except for the K2, and radios that are over $3,000, nothing made today outperforms a good 15 year old rig in this one key item.
It is also very notable that brand-new rigs made by the Japanese manufacturers are using the very same add-on accessories (IF filters, mainly) as the 15 year old radio from the same vendor. That's a pretty strong clue that the radios haven't changed much in that time.
And, do not be decieved - an added button on the front panel is not "better performance" it is an "added feature". A chrome-plated bumper doesn't make it a better truck, it simply adds a chrome-plated bumper to whatever kind of truck it was in the first place.
I have never "needed" to buy a radio new. The old Kenwood TS-850 and Icom IC-765 set the standard with roughly 135dB IMD-limited dynamic range. My IC-751 isn't far off that mark. Today, the FT-1000D, K2 and Orion are better. Even the much-trumped IC-7800 is worse. Yet you can purchase either the 765 or 850 for less then a brand new IC-718, so why bother buying new?
AM
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Used Equipment Observation
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by WA2JJH on February 9, 2005
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YES CURT, SOME USED STUFF IS A TOTAL RIP OFF!
A FT-100 or an older ICOM IC-706-II for $500+ on ebay is a rip off. Used MFJ tuners bring top dollar.
The Kenwood Ts-850SAT is a great 18 year old radio.
Best RF speech proc, twin PBT, and every feature you could want for $750 is NOT A GOOD DEAL AT ALL!
I used to love that radio. I owned 2 of them.
One I got at a Hamfest for about $350, it worked!
The other EBAY at $650 worked for 2 minutes!
The dude said no return!
The Ts-850 is showing its age. EEPROMS that go, PLL problems, and many other infamous problems.
HOWEVER, ONE SHOULD NOT MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS.
THE DRAKE TR-7 USED for $600 has a world class RX in it. The TR-7 is simple to repair, because of it's mil spec constructon.
AMPLIFIERS---LEGAL LIMIT NEW RUNS $2000 or more.
Buy an old SB-221/220/HL-2200 for $350-$500, it will
still output 900W on 20M.
Add $600 in new graphit tubes and replace almost the entire power supply with HARBOCK MODS......YOU HAVE A $2500 NEW LEGAL LIMIT AMP!!!!!
IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU BUY. I purchased an ultra rare DRAKE R-7A FOR $900 on ebay. I did some minor repairs.
I can sell it to a DRAKE NUT for OVER $2000 NOW!
EVEN NEW RIGS WILL HAVE EARLY MODEL DEFECTS!!!!
TNX FER UR EYE OPENING POST.
73 DE MIKE WA2JJH
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