Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

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Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

Gary Auerswald (WB9UDJ) on February 9, 2004
View comments about this article!

Have our radio manufacturers sold us out?

It appears that we ham's are being stuck with under engineered, poorly constructed radios built with inferior parts. ICOM who I thought built quality equipment to the point that I own many of them and have made hundreds of wholehearted recommendations to others to buy their product has gone to the dogs. I was pushing others to buy the new IC-2720H radio and the IC-746 PRO radio. Well guess what, ICOM has built at least those two radios and sold them to unsuspecting Hams with the probable knowledge that they will fail. Kenwood and Yaesu are no better as they have also produced some notable junk.

It used to be that manufacturers would stand up and admit that they had a problem. Ham's would be upset but not devastated. Today these manufacturers run and hide; they rely on the buyers of their product to have to send the radios back at their own cost. Then they will deny that anything is wrong with their product. They would be better off to admit their problem and recall the radios either to be fixed or replaced with a new model that does not have problems. If one of them were to do that they would have customers flocking to their sales staff wanting radios from the company that cares.

In our little Ham community we have had 8 IC-2720H radios bought and 5 of them have failed. All of the IC-746 PRO radios that have been bought have failed. I myself have had my 2720H fail and it was replaced and it looks like the replacement is not far behind. I have 12 IC-2100H radios and have had 3 of them fail already. When I try to contact ICOM I get an automated response that is usually not even close to answering the question sent. One can call their phone number and after you finally get a human being they have no idea as to what you are talking about let alone answering your question. They claim that there is no problem but when 5 out of 8 radios fail the same way how can they honestly say that.

I challenge the manufactures to take responsibility for their products. Or I hope that some Ham Radio operator happens to be a lawyer and starts legal action to make them recall their junk, replace them with good working radios or refund the owners money at twice what they paid.

Member Comments:

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Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by VK5CC on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Agree with your comments and concerns. I am so glad i run a Collins S line and KWM-2A with 30L1,312B4,D104,MM1 AND 302C-3.I don't have to worry about reliability or quality control as nothing built since a Collins even matches it. Thanks Art for the finest radio's a ham can buy! KEEP EM GLOWING!!

73 DE Chris.

p.s.We were sold out years ago!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

IN ONE WORD>>>>YES!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N2BSD on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

You want to hear the truth?

The truth is that HAM's are the cheapest lot I have ever seen. They want a quality engineered radio that is worth $5000 for $895 (or less).

If a company designed and built radios that would last and sold them on the open market, would they make it? No! Everyone would complain the prices are too high and their wouldn't be any reason to replace them.

Take a look at Ten-Tec. They engineer some good gear, BUT, their finishing makes it feel like junk (to me).

If Ten-Tec designed some enclosures that didn't look and feel like an altiods box or a Tuna Tin, and finished their front panels like the older Kenwoods (quality) their prices would probably be double.

Would anyone buy it? No way!

Why? Because HAM's are too cheap, and really excellent gear costs money (to design and manufacture).

Why do you think Motorola isn't in the HAM business?

That's why you should just buy the cheapest of the cheap or buy used from someone who is stupid enough to sell their Kenwood TS-850S/AT for $600-$800.

RANTING AND RAVING

by NS5U on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

IT is called greed. Give it to me too cheap to be produced in this country, promise me I will never have a problem and if I do you will fix it for free, and whatever I bring to market for sale is worth 10 times whatever anyone else can produce. The Walmart mentality is helping to take us into the new service economy which is nothing more than the feudalism of the middle ages. The owners of capital will be served by the rest of us peasants. The peasants create the middle class.....the wealthy owners of capital Why can't we all spend just a little bit more and buy it locally? Why don't we penalize international corporations who refuse to invest their capital in the States but expect access to our markets? Ten Tec and lots of other companies don't have much of a chance to survive a market place which places the highest premium(their purchase power) on the lowest purchase price and the most freebies. Smart shopping can be stupid purchasing when it is so short sighted. The economy is recovering according to the media but the employment picture is still bleak as the high tech jobs of yesterday are converted to the service economy of Hardee's.

Would you really be willing to pay for the radio you think you deserve? How do you feel about selling your services or products in direct competition with India's $12000.00 a year PHD's. What does that make you worth?

Well as long as you are shopping the web calling the dealer's to save $30 on a radio selling for $900 which would cost you $3000 to produce and then screaming for service and support for the $3000 rig...........you are getting what you deserve.

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by NS5U on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Wow I feel better getting that off my chest. :-)

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by AK7P on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I revamped my old Drake equipment and don't worry about the Jap crap that you're screaming about. The other posts are correct; if the hams had supported our domestic manufacturer's, you would not be relying on offshore stuff and the problems you mention.
Good DX if you can get the rice rocket to work.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W9GDH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had good luck with Alinco gear. Had problems
with a Kenwood moble. I have 2 DR605s. One in my truck
now for 5 years. Use it every day with temps -10f to
120f inside the truck. I started buying Alinco gear
from recommendations from other Hams. I'm not trying to sell Alincos, but if they can build good gear why can't Icom, Kenwood, and others?

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by EXPAT on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Wow, I sure am glad to read something like the above post after haunting the eham boards for a month or so now and wondering if anyone was in touch with reality...on the other hand, my Misc forum post was about getting cheaper batteries. This WalMart-ization of America is a serious problem and very insidious. After all, no one wants to pay more than necessary, but the US economy (for now I´ll stay away from the political situation) is sinking and slave-labor products have a lot to do with it. Why is my "handle" EXPAT? Well, essentially because I live in Europe for eleven months of the year, and have for six years, so the technician test has to wait until July, but the point is that life in the US has become too harsh and inhuman(e). Did you guys know that in SOME countries it is NORMAL to get four weeks vacation right away? That health insurance is MANDATED by law in Europe? Look, it is no paradise here, either, but workers, middle managers, EVERYONE except the owners in the US is getting shafted while big companies "outsource" even middle class jobs! Ironically, my degree is in chemistry and I could probably work in the US if I wanted to, but I am an English teacher (sorry for any grammar mistakes) with permanent residency in the Czech Republic. One thing I´ll say about keeping my US passport, though, it sure is easier to take the tests in English! Keep smiling, Randy

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If the rice box makers could come up with the features of an TS-850SAT, and took a few tricks on construction and field repairability of the old Drake7/a I would have no problem of paying $2000 for a rice box.

This audio DSP stuff is a bunch of crap!
I.F. DSP has a way to go as well. A good receiver with dual Xtal IF's will not benefit much from IF DSP.
For those that have to have IF DSP, make it an add on. Make the IF DSP processor have a PC interface. New IF DSP algorythms can me loaded into a PROM.

Go with a high level mixing scheme of a TR-7.
Use kenwoods RF speech proc. Use ultra over rated finals like in the TR-7 to improve IMD.

We do not want an $8000 radio like the Icom 7800!
The $8000 ICOM is the ultimate sell out.

Many hams hold on to their TS-850SAT's for a good reason. Many hold on to thier 30 year old Drake TR-7's.
They were both the best solid state radio's of their day!

The only thing I like, are the swiss army knife rice boxes that are mobile and DC-daylight. This does come at a great cost to performance of course. For $700, you do get many bands and modes in one over menued box!

They sold use out with dual banders. IMOD and construction. I have seen Motorola FRS radio's that can take far more abuse.

Of course the typical ham stereo type is a frugal over weight white haired man. That is a bunch of crap!
If you got SUCKERS on the waiting list for the ICOM 7800, how can you call hams frugal!

I really do not care what anybody else says....WE HAVE BEEN SOLD OUT PERIOD!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB8YMV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had an Icom IC2100H for a couple of years now and the only thing I think could have been designed better is cooling. If you run it on hi power and make a few old buzzard transmissions (as I do from time to time) it gets so hot you can grill a hamburger on the fins (mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, burrrrrggggeeerrs). All I did was take a 3 inch 12 vdc muffin fan out of an old pc power supply and ty-wrap it to the top of the fins. Now that its wired into the power cord so that when the radio has power the fan is spinning the thing runs cool as a cucumber all the time.

73 Mark WB8YMV

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG4YJR on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I'm not sure about amateur radio manufactures, but I know for certain that computer and other consumer electronics companies shop around the Asian and Mexican markets to subcontract their manufacturing with "assembly plants for hire". Manufacturing facilities are set-up solely to bid on mass producing various types of consumer goods and to be competitive in the global market you have to be versatile and adaptive. You may make Playstations one week, then have to bid on making toasters the next. Whenever a new product model comes out or another subcontractor gets too expensive, companies like G.E., Sony, hell everyone for that matter send out the specs and parts list to all these subs to bid on. The main focus, how many models, how fast and for how much. Just speculation but if it's so widespread in other consumer electronics I really don't see amateur radio manufactures excluding themselves from this practice. Imagine, the radio you just bought may have been assembled by someone who put together Playstations, Teddy Ruckspins or toasters the week before.
Service support centers are set-up the same way too, outsourced. The person on the other end of the phone has a checklist and keywords on their computers to assist callers with. The main priority is to get you off the phone as fast as they can to take another call and to get you to call back as they charge the manufacture on a per call basis most of the time.

Once again, I don't know if it's reached amateur radio yet but it has for most of your other consumer electronics. If it hasn't then they just haven't caught on to it. Yet!

73
Dave

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KV4BL on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I would say, "Yes, they have". This has been going on at one level or another for some time but is getting worse, in most cases, with the passage of time. Since the original author's posting mentioned it, let's pick on Icom, first. First off, let me say that I like Icom mobile radios, generally speaking, and for that reason, when they foul up (as they did with the piece of garbage known as the 2720H), I find it to be kind of hurtful. When they brough this piece of crappola out, and were so blind as to overlook putting alpha memory channel tagging in a radio with 200+ memories, I recall hoping that they would lose their @$$ on this one. My hope was, that most hams would find this inexcusable oversight to be unacceptable and not buy the thing. Additionally, they dropped the excellent 2800H from production at about the same time they introduced the 2720H. Bearing all of this in mind, I was disappointed when lots of hams started buying this thing. As such, when the warts started to grow and show on the 2720, I was not overly sympathetic for those who purchased it and certainly not for Icom. Nothing personal guys, just one of those things where the writing was on the wall (IMHO) and many failed to heed it. Now, it appears that most see the 2720 for exactly what it was from the moment it left the R&D room, a bad idea at best. They should have simply improved on the already good design of the 2800. Yeah, it didn't do simultaneous V-V or U-U but at least it had alpha tagging and it did work! I'd still like to hear Icom's explanation for dropping the 2800H. Yaesu has had quality issues for some time. After two really bad experiences with their dual band portables (a commercial grade and an FT-50) and a trip through their own special customer service hell, I swore I'd never defile my shack with another Yaesu anything. Back in late 01, I had need of a cheap, rugged, 2m mobile for use in different "company cars" that I would be driving on special duty. Cigarette lighter plug and magnet antenna were the general idea. Was going to get another 2100 but was intrigued with the Yaesu 1500M for some reason. Reviews on e-ham indicated it was a good radio so I got one. Performed VERY well and was happy with it. The assignment ended and I gave it to another ham friend to use as a mobile, thinking that if I needed another one, I'd just buy it when the time came. Less than three years into production (give or take) Yaesu decides to cancel production of one of their most satisfactory transceivers in some time. The 1500 almost universally was liked by its owners and didn't leave them feeling like "Yaesu did it to them again". While it did prove to me that Yaesu CAN make a decent radio (I've even considered purchasing an 8900R if they can make a fix for the 10M TX audio), it was a shame that this very small and reliable radio was taken off of the shelf in its prime. It is sad that except for possibly the 8900 and maybe the 8800, there are no really good transceivers capable of doing cross band repeat on 2m and 440, currently on the market. The Icom "offering" has already been covered, the Kenwood TM V7 still has all of the original "issues" like its notorious screen problems, so what is a ham to do if he or she needs a good X band capable dual band mobile? You're not likely to find it at Kenwood or Icom right now. Oh yeah, one last thing, what do we have to do to get manufacturers to use REAL GLASS for displays on ht's??? I'd gladly pay another $15 or so just to have a screen on my ht that doesn't scratch if an insect walks across it. 73, Ray KV4BL

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB9YUR on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Responsibility can be a 'two-way street' as well. How many Hams out there have
actually taken the time to send a hardcopy letter (not Email) to the Manufacturer
expressing their opinions about what they like or don't like about a particular radio?!?
Or even expressing what they would like to see in future models. For example,
take the Icom 275, 746 (I own both) and probably the 756 series. The radios are
overall good quality products (at least in my opinion). But they suffer one glaring
design flaw, the small funky RF PWR control. A better design would have been
to allow the operator to assign power level settings according to a band or even
individual frequency via memory. Do you really need 100 watts to use the repeater
down the street? No, so you turn down the RF PWR control. Later on, you decide
to work some good 6m band openings, so the power level control probably gets
turned up again. After a while, this gets to be a real hassle. Now, had Icom
taken the time (and probably only added a few more dollars to the total cost of the radio)
to design memory power level control, I think most Hams would be happy.
In short, I'm sure there are plenty of other minor and major design issues that
Hams would have liked to see happen, but never bothered to let the manfacturer
know about (good or bad).
George ...

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by SSBDX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I don't buy Kenwood or Yaesu, but Icom makes very good products. Every manufacturer makes products that fail, that's what a warranty is for. I have had very good luck with Icom, their products are well designed, and look good (for a Jap radio). Stop whining!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC9ETP on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Quit your bellyaching! Nobody is forcing you to buy anything from the big 3.

Convert a Motorola for ham use, build a kit, or design your own radio.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG4WBH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Well, This sure got the feathers all ruffled. I have only been in HAM radio fora little over a year so my vision is sort of limited in this respect. So far though, I have only been exposed to Alinco and TenTec HF rigs, but in FM 2 meter stuff I have quite the assorment of manufacturers. All of them work fine, I have issues with programming some of them, but all in all, I haven't had a bad radio yet. I even have had good service out of my MFJ 969 Antenna tuner!!! I must be one of the few lucky ones...

God Bless and 73
David - KG4WBH

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K0BG on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Reliability is one issue, customer sevice is another.

From my experience and that of others, all of the big three need to improve their customer service competency level. Like you, some of the answers I've received from Icom were blatantly defective adding insult to an already terse situation.

Alan, KØBG

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8FVJ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I am not backing up the manufactures, however the majority of this market demands radios at low prices when compared to the costs/profit ratios 10-15 years ago. Adding to that pressure is releasing the latest product for the ham radio operators resulting in minimal testing & debug time.

The result is equipment that is designed & assembled with less than commercial duty type parts/construction that adds up to failures in the field. An ICOM IC-765 would cost over $4K today and produce about zero sales.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by NY7Q on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

truth is,,,,most of the radios produced are worth about 400.00 and sell way over that...2 and 3 thousand is ridiculous for a radio. most are customer r&d, and then the corrections are never made. ICOM is the worse of the lot. thats why i own 19 YAESU transceivers!!!! Collins???? come on guys, that crap is so old and over rated....sure, its tube and was fine in its day (state of art) but today its just not practical unless you are a repairman with lots of test equipment and spare parts that cost an arm and leg. thats the real truth guys....

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB2FCV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have to say, I do like one new manufacturer in the market: Elecraft. They have excellent products and even better yet, TOP NOTCH customer service! How many other companies can you actually talk to the designers and owners of the company to get support or offer input?

I own several older ICOM radios and my mobile / home rig is a 2500M. My ICOM 2AT is basically indestructible, it's still used today. Aside from the dial lights going out on it, the Yaesu 2500M has been a solid performer. I have had some Kenwood VHF rigs that died (TM-241, TM-731) after only a few years. I don't really like Kenwood that much. We had two TS-2000's that went belly up at this past years field day. I've used the radio and it's nothing to write home about.

As it's been said before, we want to pay $800 for a radio that costs $3000 to make. Somewhere you're gonna lose quality in there. I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with "the big three" directly, but from what I understand.. it's a pretty big hassle. For now I'll put my money with Elecraft for anything HF. Yes it's a kit, but that's half the fun! 73's, James KB2FCV

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KT0DD on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I don't understand the Ten Tec Bashing. At least they still use METAL in their Enclosures. Yaecomwood's are mostly PLASTIC! Besides, Ten Tec puts their engineering where it counts...on performance! I'll keep my money here in the good ol USA! Now, if only Art Collins could be RE-incarnated...or cloned? HI HI.73.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W9WHE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The truth is that many hams are too cheap to pay for quality. Disagree? Then explain to me:

Why MFJ is so popular?
Why do so many hams buy junk HTs?
Why do so few hams use Motorola VHF & UHF equipment?
Why do so many hams use RG-8X cable?

You get what you pay for. Many hams just won't pay for quality.

W9HWE
Proud to have CANCELLED my ARRL membership!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WR8D on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

In 1999 i worked my way up to an icom 775dsp with all the filters. This radio is beautiful and has the best receiver i've ever sat in front of. It seems after the 775 line was dropped icom started going to pieces. I'd like one of those 756pro2's now but i know several folks running them and they tell me the rig does not do 100 watts on hf..maybe 65 watts is tops. "Why"..i've also heard of all the bugs in the others too. It just did'nt used to be this way. Back when i bought the 775dsp new i had wanted a kenwood 950sdx. By this time production on the 950sdx had been dropped but the factory tried to lie to me just to get me to buy one from their stockpile. It looks to me that around 99-2000 they all started to fall apart. It just did'nt used to be this way.
73
John WR8D

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W9WHE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The original author opines:

"It appears that we ham's are being stuck with under engineered, poorly constructed radios built with inferior parts.

Nonsence.
You are not "stuck" with anything. NOBODY forces you to buy that Jap-track junk. You can buy Motorola equipment that doesn't suffer from intermod, EXCEEDS quoted specs, and will continue to work if you drop it.

You are voting with your dollars. Unfortunately, many hams keep "voting" for junk. The solution is simple. Stop buying junk. But the reality is....most hams simply will not pay for quality. They want "cheap" and "cheap" means junk.

You get what you pay for. Well, unless the ARRL has its way and has the government "give away" HF priveleges. Maby the next ARRL push will be to have manufacturers "give away" equipment!

W9WHE
Boycott ARRL & its products.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K4SFC on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, no quality & no service. Except bad/poor that is. If we would boycott their products it just might make a difference. But, so many hams are affluent, they just buy another one and move on. Therein lies the problem. And the ARRL does nothing to help the problem, as long as they get their advertising dollars, mum's the word.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2IXE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

RE:
So few Hams use Motorola HTs

I'll add or GE, or other commercial grade stuff (as I sit here with a GE M-PA on my desk)

I've seen 16 channel GE rigs go for $5!!!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG5JJ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

So...Wal-Mart (and other worldwide businesses) are at fault for the "junk" equipment market.

Reality check; as stated before, we, the consumers, are at fault for worldwide corporations using cheap labor in third-world countries.

Why? we DEMAND low prices, and low prices mean JUNK, built by unfortunate laborers in those under developed countries.

If anybody wants to point a finger at who is to blame for this; look in a mirror and point-away.

73 KG5JJ (Mike)

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AA8X on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

You are correct about Icom quality. After spending big bucks for an IC-2700 with all accessories, this rig turned out to be the biggest piece of crap ever manufactured. The unit had multiple failures with internal connectors, failure of both RF modules, problems with poor soldering on pc boards and intermittent connection when using an external speaker due too bad soldering on speaker jacks. Even when working, it was beleaguered by an enormous amount of intermod and could never be used anywhere near the Chicago land area. The last strew was went it stopped receiving on both VHF and UHF. This time the IC-2700 went to the junk heap. After that experience, I would never purchase another Icom product.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG4YJR on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>And the ARRL does nothing to help the problem, as long as they get their advertising dollars, mum's the word.<<

That's why I find the user reviews section here on eHam more useful than a magazines review. Most magazine reviews are a little biased in favor of their sponsors and their testing of gear seems to be in some sort of sterile, lab like conditions using specialized gizmos that print out data that is probably insignificant and totally unnoticeable except when measuring it with the meters. Does it work, does it work the way it's supposed to, does it have intermod issues, does the seller or manufacturer stand by their product? Not that it had +0.0000009% more gain on RX in their lab, with their equipment, than similar models like it tested.

73
Dave

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8MMZ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ditto N2BSD!

Just look at the inflation from 1990 to 2004 (I'll use a postage stamp for this). First class postage in 1990 was $0.25. Presently you can send first class at $0.37 -> thats an increase of 50%.

So lets see - an entry level rig was around $800 (fully equipped) in 1990. By my calculations, an entry level rig (ceteris paribus) should be $1200.

Well, why can you still find new entry level rigs for $1200?

Let me ask you another question - have any of you folks not gotten a payraise in the last 15 years? Well it appears that the manufacturer's haven't if you run the numbers - if we (consumers) demand cheap equipment, well - that's what we are going to get! First - the labor costs will be controlled (i.e. offshoring) then the parts quality/content will be controlled (i.e. el cheapo!).

I can't blame the manufacturer's for being competetive and trying to trim the bottom line - they have payrolls to make and bills to pay. It's not greed so much as it is survival. If we are willing to shell out more $$ for better stuff, then they will be willing to build it.

Cheers' es 73's
N8MMZ - Jonathan

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AB7R on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I must be one of the lucky ones when it comes to off shore rigs. In the past I've had:
775-no problems
746-no problems
100MP-no problems
Omni VI+ mp problems
Orion - lots of problem but excellent service from TenTec.

But I have heard MANY horror stories, some true, some maybe exaggerated. But then I found Elecraft and built a full K2 station. I know the quality that when into it because I put it there..at least the construction. They have the best customer service, user support and a great design that even today continues to evolve.

I even considered a Pro-II, but then why chance it. I'll stick with what works for me, and that's the Elecraft.

As far as price concerns.... come on...this is a free market economy. If you don't like the Icom, stop buying them. They will either change their service and/or product, or get out of the amateur market.
Who's next...Yaesu, same thing. If you're not getting your marginal utility per dollar and think it will be better elsewhere; stop buying them.

When all is said and done, these manufacturers will either shape up their services and products, or hams won't have a choice what to buy. Except Elecraft that is. hihihi. (No, I don't work for them, just love the rig.)

GL and 73 to all
Greg
AB7R

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AD6WL on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have mainly Yaesu gear and have only had one problem with my FT-1000 MarkV. It was under warranty. I shipped it to them, they repaired it and I had back on my desk in less than 2 weeks. I have had no problems with it since. Good product, Great service.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by NY7Q on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

another note: i think TENTEC is the BEST of the lot, but who can afford it. Thats why i own second best...Yaesu...you cannot beat TENTEC service and the equipment is marvelous, but,,,,like i said, I cannot afford it....

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K6TLA on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Bad design, quality control, insufficient beta testing or all of the above? You be the judge. Here are a few of my personal experiences with recently produced equipment.

First Yaesu: FT-817, finals that blow for seemingly no apparent reason, currently on my third set.

FT-100D - VHF/UHF final that is biased on at all times including receive. Eventually it blows and replacement cost is a couple of hundred dollars. Internal fan does not operate enough to keep radio cool, user mod required. SWR warning intermittantly activated when SWR is within limits, user mod required. 15 khz FM filter is used for AM mode transmit and receive. AM mode virtually unusable unless optional AM filter is purchased.

FT-897 - LCD display contrast is poor and difficult to read. If not viewed straight on contrast drops even more making readability very poor. In AM transmit mode output power spikes to 125-150 watts as transmitter is keyed, slowly settling to rated AM carrier power of 25 watts. When operated under CAT control pulse noise is heard in the receiver. When VFO is tuned pulse rate changes with speed and direction of VFO rotation.

Icom: IC-706 MKIIG - radio case gets hot in receive mode, user mod required. AM transmit mode has problem similiar to FT-897. As transmitter is keyed power spikes and then settles to rated AM carrier power.

Guys, these are things that should not be happening. The final PA problem with the FT-817 has been well known among FT-817 owners for well over two years now yet nothing has been done about it. Manufacturers should be certain that all functions work properly before releasing new models to the market.

.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by NG1I on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Boy did this posting open my eyes. Typically I don't look for the cheapest because paying for something of good quality is better than paying for something cheap twice .

I have a full working TS-430 station for years and was thinking about the FT-2000. Anyone with any hints, suggestions, comments out there? I do appreciate them & what you may have to say either way.

Boy have I been dumb..always thought the big 3 were supposed to be reliable..... DOH!

Thanks all!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yet another appoach. Take a basic DRAKE TR-7. It should be cheaper to produce with the reduction in parts.

Just add an RF speech proc. Notch, and the twin PBT the TS-850 has. Add on 100 memeories to it. replace the PTO with a modern freq vco.

Keep the same case and modular PC construction.
Leave out the crappy audio DSP. Put in an option for a PC programmable IF DSP.

Put in the oversize finals the TR-7 has for less IMD.
Leave out features like internal keyer, voice commands and menues!

Keep the same near mil spec construction of a TR-7.

Shazzam...A rig worth $2000. $3000 if made in the U.S.A.

Not all hams are cheap.
I own commercial motorola H-T's
I use RG-8X--The real stuff not thr RAT Shack copy!
I plead guilty to buying MFJ...However I am buying the new made in the USA LMG auto antenna tuner for $150.
No crummy cross needle meters. No cheapo coax switch and no cheapo tuning caps that have trouble handling 100W.

For $150 for an auto tuner, I can afford to buy a real SWR/power meter and 1K dummyload.

BTW the so called 300W dummy load in your MFJ POS deluxe has a wire wound rresistor! Remember the old novice test?

I ran 200 watts and the dummy load resistor lite up like a toaster!!!!!!

I have not found a $2000 rig that can beat my TS-850 and TR-7 in many area's.

We keep getting suckered in for the DSP, and other fsncy crap!

I would love to take my ts-850 and TR-7 and build a hybrid of the two!

One can also look to TEN-TEC and ELCRAFT.
I have heard nothing but great reviews on the high power elkraft K-2. Yes it is a $800 dollar kit.
However MANY have compared it very well to the $2000 rice boxes.

ELCRAFT is ham frindly, Help is available. The rig also lends it self to modification and constant improvement.

My next purchase will be from the USA. NO MFJ DOES NOT COUNT AS USA!

lETS SUPPORT TEN-TEC AND ELKRAFT. Tell them what we want in a rig. If you do not get exactly what you want, then the FCC says you have the right to add features. Just as long as you stay within emmision standards.

So you can belly ache about the $8000 ICOM or you can deal the the remaining American Ham radio companies we have! You can also add features only you want. Leave all the bells and whistles for the Model Rairoaders!!!!!!(hi-HI)]

73 DE MIKE

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA4CCH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

LONG LIVE TEN-TEC
BEST CUSTOMER SERVICE
BUY IT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEY WILL TAKE IT BACK
73 CHUCK

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K9KJM on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, Icom has really let hams down with the 2720H
and 746PRO (And I bet a few other models too)
BUT they can make GOOD equipment. The new T90 handi is
a great little radio! So is the good old 756PRO, IC765/IC761, R7000, IC2350H, IC2410H, IC2710H etc.
To give a new model the same sounding series number like the crapola IC2720H being somehow "related" to the
good old 2710 is about criminal. I waited over a year for the junk 2720H to finally hit the streets after Icom first ran the big ads for it.... Apparently some behind the scenes problems with it???.... Guess what? It still has more than it's share of problems.
I got stuck with one of these piles of junk.
Writing to Icom tech support is about as good as talking to the wall.
The one line answer I got was not worth my effort to
write to them. They did NOT even know how the thing
is supposed to work!
I would suspect that Icom took the good old 2800 off the market because profit margin on the new crap 2720H
is much higher...........
Those who say "buy Motorola" are maybe not aware that
Motorola does not have a dual band mobil radio that can cross band repeat....... And Scan over 200 frequencies...... etc.....
I used to use a few Motorola radios, Had my trunk full of equipment and all of it still did not do what a single Icom 2710H would do.... Only thing lacking in the good old 2710 was DCS (Digital Squelch) And for that matter, the 2800, 2410, 2350 et al.
Yes, The Motorola and other commercial radios are Much
higher quality than the rice boxes. But look at what the original cost was........ And how much they do NOT do that the little Icom/Kenwood/Yaesu rigs do at
about one fourth the cost.
I hope that all of these posts on the various forums
have an effect on Icom and others to clean up the act.
If not recalling the junk IC2720 and 746, At least REPLACE the model with one that really works. And do NOT try to deceive hams with a "like" sounding model number!
We KNOW they can all make decent radios. Check the
reviews here on Eham carefully! Vote for only the good ones with your dollars!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K4JF on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have NEVER had a piece of Kenwood gear with any problem. In 28 years of hamming I've owned R-599D/T-599D Twins, TS-450, TS-870 (Great rig!), TS-790, TS-700, TM-V7A, TM241A (another great rig - still using one in my sailboat), TH-22, TH-42 and others. Have a Ten-Tec 6M rig - seems OK, not much use. I've owned junk, like a Tempo One, but have generally had great success with KW. Also had good Heathkit, Collins, and Hammarlund gear, as well as Motorola. The solution is research the gear - talk to other hams, and never buy one that's just out (I broke that rule with the TM-V7A, but it is a wonderful, reliable rig giving me rough duty service for over 6 years now).

The junk is not limited to ham gear. Just bought my sweetie a DVD player. Audio went out on 3rd movie. Warranty? Forget it.

My opinion is that our ham gear is better built and more reliable than most electronics on the market. The manufacturers know they are selling to a knowledgable (OK, relatively so) market. Most consumer market stuff is "use it a little and throw it away". The manufacturers will have a new model out soon anyway.

As far as customer service - that's an extinct bird. NOBODY does it any more. On any product.

RE: MORE RAVING LESS RANTING?

by NS5U on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

IF you have read this far you don't have enough to do. I own a K2 a great American Rig but NOT CHEAP! I have I have almost $1800 in a kit built rig......and I don't have everything. I love the radio and the company but listen to the ham community and it is too much to pay plus you have to build it. If they manufactured them the price could easily be over $2700 and it would still be a bargain to buy something Americans got paid a decent living to build which performs better than all other radios available short of another American BUILT radio. Quit crying about what you won't pay for while you spend $35 tonight to have pizza brought to your couch potato @$$. If you spent what you more wisely you would have plenty left for what matters.........quality. Live slower live longer love better.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC8OWL on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

This brings to mind an interesting thing ...

Some local hams wonder what I see in the Motorola commercial equipment I use for VHF and UHF. To me it's simple, they hold up much better that much of the equipment offered by Icom, Yaesu, and Kenwood.

Receive audio, transmit audio, durability, performance, and ease of use under tough conditions are only a few examples. In addition, with new Motorola radio's like the GP2000, it's a snap to program the radio's in the field or though the key-pad.

Don't get me wrong, I also own regular ham gear and have been happy with most of what I have purchased, but when it comes to public service or other activities outside of the shack, I think quality of the commercial equipment outpaces that of the amateur equipment my leaps and bounds.

Just my $0.02; your milage may vary

73 - Mike, KC8OWL

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by M3TRJ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What about the people who can't afford expensive stuff? I'm sure there are some reasonably priced high quality radios out there.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W7WIK on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

That's why I buy Ten Tec.

The fit and finish might not be like the Japanese rigs, but the radios work well and customer service is great. I have a Ten Tec Jupiter and it works very well for my needs.

Marco, W7WIK

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by TUBEGUY on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sold us out years ago....problem is all the new stuff is darn near impossible for the average ham to fix...(unless you have microscopic fingers)I'll keep running my trusty rusty old S line....if it breaks I can still fix it.(and get parts)

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K5UJ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

All you guys hollering about how expensive gear has become and how little you get for your money now have no idea why that is. Two words: Health insurance.
American and foreign ham companies with full time employees here offer their employees benefits packages that include retirement and health insurance, or did you think people working for ham radio companies paid their own hospital bills and retire on socal security? Being hams, you probably did. In the past 3 years or so, health insurance has gone through the stratosphere in the U.S. Those cost increases on the widgets you buy have not been due to component price inflation. As an example, I've been watching one product in particular made here by an American company and its price has gone up almost $500 in the past 3 years while component prices have pretty much stayed flat. I can guarantee you the revenue from that price increase isn't going towards a better B+ transformer etc.

You want to keep jobs here and keep American ham companies in business? Get behind health care reform.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<<<What about the people who can't afford expensive stuff? I'm sure there are some reasonably priced high quality radios out there.>>>>>

Yes I do have to admit ICOM did listen. I am not sure of the model number. It is 160-10M with audio DSP. Runs new for about $500 U.S.

That is a good deal. No real IF pass band tuning or notch.

However a solid 100W, all modes. I do not know what kind of job the AUDIO DSP will do in terms of NR, Passband tuning, and notch.

I know my Yeasu FT-100DLX which was closed out at $730 was a steal, It covers 6,2, and 440 as too. It also makkes a not to terrible police scanner.

It is like the ICOM 706 mark II-g. oth radio's had major problems early. However they did fix all the problems.

Funny thing about the big three. The FT-857 was suppossed to replace the FT-100D. FT-100D's are now selling for more than the new radio it is supposed to replace!

I got my FT-100DLX fully loaded with DSP, TCXO, and 500HZ filter for $730 U.S. from GIGAPARTS. Now if you can find a NIB late serual number FT-100DLX, the price.
is $900!!!!!

That new under $500 ICOM seems to be for the beginner in mind. Not tones of hidden menues, like my FT-100DLX.

A return to simplicity of the late 1970's in terms of features.

Do not be overly exited about the AUDIO DSP built into the new low cost ICOM. Real IF shift is just that.
Any funtion that is in the IF chain, that an audio DSP tries to emulate will have limited results.

However $500 for an all mode 100W HF rig is a very good price(NIB)

That is one area where the rice box makers showed us how cheap the modern radio is to produce.

I like my $700 SWISS ARMY KNIFE RIG(FT-100DLX) for having every band and mode in one tiny box.
No on HF it is not my Kenwood TS-850 or Drake TR-7!
It just does the job. However having 100W on 6M is nice. 50Watts on 2M is great! However power must be turned down on UHF to 15W. That is one bug yeasu did not fix. I HATE ALL THE MENUES! The general coverage varies greatly. On UHF it is as sensitive as a very cheap scanner. Good enough for NYPD listening.

I think that new ICOM might be the way for you to go.
The rig is ultra simple to operate. For better or worse audio DSP, full power, and general coverage.

For less than $500, you cannot go wrong.

73 DE MIKE

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC8FWD on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hello,
I had a Yaesu FT-7100M,It had intermod probs software probs so I sent it to Yaesu they told me they tried to fix the intermod but it did not work and they offered me the FT-90 in trade The 90 cost more but yeasu did not charge me they did a even swap for a new radio I give Yaesu 5 Stars I have a lot of their equip and run it hard it does me Justice 73 de KC8FWD

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What about the people who can't afford expensive stuff? I'm sure there are some reasonably priced high quality radios out there.

I checked the $500 Icom radio is the NEW icom 718.
Got great reviews on Eham.

Seems that with DSP, you can have the radio NIB for about $500-525. Look for free DSP through in specials and rebates.

Just have to find a cheap 13V 20 amp supply for full power.

Some people have made decent power supplies out of old thown out PC desk tops. They are switching supplies however, so do use ferrits and other RFI reducing techniques.

I like the TODD series. No RFI. I picked up a 60 AMP for $200. weighs 2 kilo's! That is great if you want to take the rig to other locations.

Be weary of buying ASTRON supplies on EBAY. Make sure your supply has overvolt and crowbar protection.

You might get a good deal if you order the ICOM supply with the rig. Save on handling. I think Icom does offer a switching supply for $189.

Just add the NEW LMG $140 100W auto antenna tuner, and your in business!

73 DE MIKE

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by VE3WGO on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yes, as so many have said already, we are getting what we pay for. Hams expect military quality and warranty, but at Walmart prices. And that's what killed the interest of Drake, Heathkit, Collins, etc from serving the Ham Radio market anymore. They are still very much in business, but they have other interests these days. If a Ham Radio manufacturer didn't have another line of business to rely on, it disappeared completely.

So now all we have left are some small, private American radio companies that make one or two types of radios, (like Elecraft, MFJ, and Tentec), and a very few modest-sized Japanese ones (Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, etc) that somehow are staying alive. Ham Radio dealers seem to be slowly disappearing too.

If you want (say for example), Icom to get out of the Ham Radio business, just keep bashing and don't buy their radios. Their Chief Financial Officer will then show them that the business case for new Ham Radio R&D can't be justified since sales have fallen, and no new Icom ham radios will come out. But watch it -- others like Kenwood, Yaesu, and Tentec just might follow that same business plan. And your wish will come true. They'll stick to the higher priced marine, fire/police, and and government equipment which is higher quality -- and much higher priced.

A much better idea is to write a clear, cordial letter to your favourite Ham Radio manufacturer, suggesting how they might improve their radios, or you could even suggest a new model. I'm sure they like to get this feedback, if it is supportive in nature. And they like you to actually BUY their products, when they do finally make the kind we asked for.

But in truth, I think we are on very precarious ground these days, and we are witnessing the slow, painful collapse of the Ham Radio industry. MFJ saved Hy-Gain, Ameritron, and Mirage, otherwise they would have died long ago. What about MFJ itself? Or Tentec, or the others?

Bottom line -- we need to quit being such a bunch of whining backbenchers who want the world served to them on a silver platter.

So get out there and buy a new Ham Radio AT LEAST as often as you replace your personal computer, digital camera, or your car! The Ham Radio industry is depending on us!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K0EWS on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For those wanting high quality ham gear at a very good price for what you get, I offer 3 words...Elecraft, Elecraft, Elecraft......and the beauty is that if it breaks, you can work on it yourself, a terrific support system, and much cheaper to fix. 73 to all

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG6AMW on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No, they analyzed this market and provided it with what it wanted. Rigs with lots of features that generally run well (but not super) for $1700 that will be sold off in 3 years for $1000 so something new can be purchased. If you don't like it go pay twice as much at Ten Tec and make believe that its actually better because it was made here and it cost twice as much.

KG6AMW

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W3JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No. We have not been "sold out" by the ham radio equipment manufacturers. In order to sell someone out, there has to be an obligation to default on. No company is obliged to provide hams with any particular type or quality of equipment. The market determines what gets made and sold. We are the buyer side of the market. If we, as a group, are not willing to pay for high quality and performance, no company can stay in business offering high quality and performance to mass market customers.

I used to run the Engineering Division of a company in the audio business that sold consumer and pro audio products. The level of performance offered by our pro gear was second to none and our quality was excellent. We also charged as much as $7 k for a pair of monitor loudspeakers. Our consumer gear was targeted mostly at the high end of the market. A typical pair of speakers might cost $700. Either system would deliver reasonably clean audio, but the pro system would deliver much higher SPL for a given level of distortion, and was designed to have a much longer service life.

We also built product for a sister company that sold mass market systems for as little as $100 a pair.

The customers got what they paid for.

As consumers, we hams get what we pay for. If you want to spend a few hundred bucks on an IC-718, you can. If you want to spend tens-of-thousands of dollars on a Harris RF-1140( ) and R-590A, you can. One is consumer (read, hobbyist) equipment, the other is gear for someone who must have reliable communications 24/7.

Of course, nothing justifies poor customer service. In addition to my collection of boat anchors, I own radios from Alinco, Icom, Kenwood, TenTec, and Yaesu. I've had bad customer service from all of them--except TenTec. One instance was so bad that I mailed my radio to the Chairman of the offending company and told him that, if he could get his service department to fix it, he could keep it. My repaired radio quickly reappeared along with several nice accessories. A good response, but I never should have had go so far up that company's food chain.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<<<<$1000 so something new can be purchased. If you don't like it go pay twice as much at Ten Tec and make believe that its actually better because it was made here and it cost twice as much.>>>>>>

FWIW TEN-TEC does make an entry level rig with real IF DSP. The cost is about $750. Only drawback is that it is 20W out. However true IF speech processing allows for up to 15db RF compression withith out distortion.
The difference between 100W with 15db of clean RF compression will equal a 100Watt rig with the 6DB max of audio DSP you can add.

The new ARGONUAGHT has true IF DSP. The price is not bad either. The RX filtering is excellent.

Ten-TEC is also a ham friendly company to deal with, as is elcraft. The service from the rice box makers is variable at best!

Also TEN-TECS rigs while pricey do last longer and have better specs. One of their rigs used two stages of IF XTAL filtering as well as IF DSP.

Check the varience of specs from the rice box makers.
The ARRL lab may like the $2000 rice box they tested.
However check the return rates and service on EHAM.

At TEN-TEC, a ham may answer your phone call. Elecraft too!

It is always a matter of choice. I aint ever selling my DRAKE TR-7. To blame hams frugalality on the demise of a ham company is just plain silly.Drake is alive and well and selling commercial HF radio's.

There was an american vertical company called GOTHAM.
They eleuded that their verticals covered 10-80M.
When the Box arrived the OM would find some cheap aluminum section and a loading coil.
No mounting bracket ubolt adapter, nothing!
They like Trigger electronics went down because they scammed hams period!

In life there are no simple answers, just simple people.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8WCE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

There have been some good ones here lately. The DJ196T being shiped to dealers despite Alinco knowing the DTMF tones were off enough to not work properly. Yaesu FT100 (all versions) sold as an "ALL MODE" when the AM recrption is poor at best, and the AM TX almost uninteledgable even after you turn the RF PWR down to about 5 watts and screw with the carrier level. Yaesu FT897 going deaf, and the only solution buried in a hidden menu. Yaesu FT1000 (all versions) and most other yaesu HF rigs, with their excessivly fast rise time in the CW mode that splatters key clicks all over the bands. I am a hard core Icom owner, but it's sad to see them continue to ship IC746PROs as fast as they can make them, knowing the finals won't last 6 months with moderate use. As others have pointed out, I too don't want to pay 4 to 5K for an hf rig, but I honestly don't believe that these bugs can't be ironed out without sending the price through the roof.
73 Willie

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by SSBDX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If you guys think $3k is too much for a quality radio, you don't know much about radio equipment history. In 1964, a KWM-2 was $1100. Guess what it would cost in 2004. The same can be said of most of the other radios. Johnson transmitter $600, Heath SB102 $360 (this was an outrageous price for a piece of crap like a SB102), Hallicrafters SR400 $700. In 1964 average factory worker wages was around $3 /hr. A small 3 bedroom house in 1964 was $20k in the mid west.

Radios today are dirt cheap!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7QE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Today, a KWM-2 would be well over $6,000.

Harvey
K7QE

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W5EI on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If you don't like the Japanese ham radio product offerings, there are plenty of alternatives. You just have to pay for them. Ten-Tec and Elecraft are there for you. I suspect the quality control problems of Yaesu, Icom, and Kenwood have to do with labor costs. Most companies are scrambling to outsource their labor, whether it is for manufacturing or service. I don't know if the big three even still manufacture their gear in Japan. It wouldn't surprise me if their labor is contracted out to sweatshops in China or Bangladesh. Just try to set up a factory for anything in the United States. The comments made previously about health care costs are dead on. Throw in environmental regulations, sex and age discrimination lawsuits, OSHA regs, liability and workers' comp insurance costs, and all the other nonsense an employer has to cope with, and it takes a pretty gutsy guy or gal to even bother with it. The reason Collins and other old-line companies are still in business is that they can cover their costs and still make a return over the T-bill rate by charging exorbitant defense electronics prices to Uncle Sam. We all end up paying for this in higher taxes. I'd like to buy an IC-746PRO, but there is no way I am going to risk the hassle of having to ship back to Icom a new, non-performing radio. So, I'll just sit back with my tried and true Elecraft gear, enjoy the Drake 4B line, and hope the TS-2000 holds together for the occasional DC to daylight needs.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K2WH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ya know, I hear these types of statements all the time and in my 35 years of buying equipment from all manufactures, I have not had one single failure of anything. This includes many ICOMS, Kenwoods and Yaesus. New and old. I currently have 3 complete Kenwood stations 30+ years old and still operating nicely. I have the ICOM 756pro for 3 years now and still works perfectly the ICOM-2800h mobile rig for 4 years now and still works perfectly. I have the Kenwood TH-F6a HT for 1 year now and still works perfectly. I have the Yaesu FT-847 satellite rig for 2 years now and it still works perfectly.

I think the problem may be with the users who abuse these radios. They are not built to military standards. If you want rigs that operate like the military ones and are as durable as military gear, then expect not to own any gear because it will be too expensive to buy.

Are the manufacturers selling us out NO. They provide a product that does a good job and yes they fail every now and then. But then all things do. So, stop complaining and work the DX.

K2WH

the solution is: BUILD IT YOURSELF!

by NJ0E on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

i decided some months back, that any new radios i
add to my shack, i will assemble myself, so i can
service them myself. in my case, that limits the
complexity of the equipment quite a lot, but i don't
end up feeling trapped. have been very satisfied
with the products i've purchased and put together
from small wonder labs. also, the emtech zm-2 is
a slick little tuner.

someday, i'd like to try a k1 or k2. the elecraft
gear seems to elicit rave reviews from everyone i've
known that has put one together.

so quit your whining, plug in your soldering iron,
and get to it.

73
scott nj0e

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K0WA on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What an interesting bunch of guys you are. So, I thought I would add my 2 cents.

Elecraft - not cheap, but fun. Customer service is great! There are plenty of guys out there that will build it for your too.

Ten Tec - Never own one, but just about did with the Orion...again a personal preference of sinking $3600 into a rig. Yes, I am frugal!

But, have hams done this to themselves by asking for more and more frills at the same price point? These Japanese marketers are pretty savvy. They look at the Dxers and Contesters for those bells and whistles to add to thier rigs. Hams have demanded a lot of extras. Do we really need all that stuff? Yes, if your are a contester and a DXer. No, if you are a rag chewer. A HW101 would work.

Also, how many of these radios are sold in a year's time. Not many conpared to other things these guys to make. It is a finite market.

So, get off the back of the Japanese...they are just paying attention to the people who use radios. YOu can see that when they come out with QRP radios to compete in the very popular QRP market. Also, they have come out with some rigs that are in the $800 price range...so they are paying attention to the market place.

If you want customer service and a great radio that is extremely function...get an Elecraft K2/100 with the KAT100.

And the League? Well, they are between a rock and hard place with advertising and good relations. I would not want to be in that position, but that is thier lot in life. Personally, any voice we have I will support.

Lee - K0WA

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB2FCV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I had almost forgotten to mention in my previous post that I don't plan on buying any new "big three" HT's. I think I'll only buy motorola. We use these day-to-day in the fire service and they are basically indestructible. Sure, you pay for them, but they are going to last a very long time. For me, a handheld radio has to be bulletproof. I don't want to be afraid to take it or use it in any situation. I think some of these new radios are over complicating things. I don't need menus, cross band repeat, 1000 bells and whistles and 2000 buttons all over the thing. I just need to know that when I am on a certain memory that It's gonna work when I press the mic button. No flimsy speakermics that give out in a month. I know alot of hams that replace their 2meter HT every 3-5 years. I know of radios in the fire dept that have seen alot of action and use and are 15+ years old! Replacing something every 3-5 years gets expensive. I'd rather pay a little more for something that's gonna last.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WD5L on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

To a large extent we play into the kind of equipment we get. The Amateur Radio manufacturing industry is, not entirely, but for the most part driven by market forces.

We don't want to pay too much for equipment and the cost to employ competent engineers who have to pay housing mortgages and yes the dreaded medical insurance drives up the cost of the product. The largest cost for any of these manufacturers is it's employee related costs.

I worked in the computer industry and my job was to provide the UNIX/Linux support to our corporate customers in a call center. In the 7 1/2 years I worked with this company I noticed how they first cut back on training and then they tried to merge us with Microsoft Windows call group because we didn't spend as much time on the phones. The thinking was that the UNIX customers wouldn't mind long hold times and have a Microsoft specialist aswer those questions. So a Microsoft Windows specialist, who was absolutely terrified about UNIX, was expected to answer address technical issues posed by veteran UNIX administrators with over 20 years experience or worse answer questions posed by a retail vendor who himself was absolutely clueles about UNIX. All this to drive down costs because these customers, too, were also going lowest bidder. Remember the movie Armeggeddon where one of the astronauts quips, "Aren't you comfortable knowing that this ship was put together by the lowest bidder?"

It seems to me we do have choices. We can demand higher quality equipment by voting with our dollars. Some have mentioned Harris Radio but as an EE told me he had to junk a Harris once because one of their outsource vendors stopped making a particular chip. So this has limitations too. Also a Harris or a Collins is not ergonomically designed to lend itself to easy QSY across the ham bands.

Another option is the kit building avenue. This is an avenue I think has merit. I personally like Elecraft and I have been constructing equipment for over 27 years. I built my second CW transmitter back in '77. I have built the Herring Aid 5, Tuna Tin 2 and so on but I have gone on to build more sophisticated rigs like 20 and 30 meter DC transceivers. For those who can't build or lack the where-with-all there are those who will assemble for a price or for free. Caveat Emptor.

A final solution would be to assemble from scratch. There is a wonderful book by Randy L. Henderson called Build Your Own Intelligent Amateur Radio Transceiver and is still available. It is not for the faint of heart but it presents an interesting and challenging task for those of us who like challenges.

There are alternatives we can excercise if we choose to use them.

Rick WD5L

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N2YTF on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I really dont think its a matter of hams being cheap so much as it is a problem of (a) hams wanting the newest technologies and (b) hams not really knowing much about the technology that makes the radios work.

Every radio buyer, commercial or amateur, is cheap. There are low quality commercial radios just like there is low quality ham gear. No radio puchaser in any service WANTS to pay allot for a radio, and usually the folks in charge of puchasing radios in any service dont know much about the underlying technology (ask your local commercial radio dealer about this or read about New York City's fiasco involving digital radios for its firefighters.
)

Whats different about the amateur radio community is that it is eager to get the newest technology, not that that it is uniquely cheap. The amateur radio community supports many different lines of radios that cost more than 3,000$US (the top of the line tentec and yaesu 1000d come to mind), and considering the worlds ham population is less than 2 million (and about 600,000 in the US) this small population (compared to other consumer populations,say for cars or cell phones) is spending an enormous amount of money to support so many large ham radio companies.

Hams always want the newest technology, even if it is unproven. This is the real difference between hams and other radio consumers. Several years ago at Dayton my ham buddy could not stop himself from buying the newly announced vx-7r. He was seduced by the "new" technology of the radio, not by its low price (it was very expensive at that point). Just as some people take pride in the manufacturer of their car, some hams like to have the "status" of having the newest-supposedly highest performance ham gear. This is not how I think, but there are many hams out there that think this way. Once a local ham on the radio even made fun of my setup because I was running a 2 to 6m transverter and didnt have a dedicated 6m radio. He said my stuff was lousy technology and a joke.

Consumers in other areas often shy away from new technologies. Many car buyers shy away from new, unproven, models for example. But hams always want the newest thing.

Its ham radio manufactures' rush to always be first with new technologies combined with the small number of purchasers for ham gear that produces ham gear with problems. Hams are more interested in owning the radio that has the latest trick gadget than in having boring, but reliable gear. Ham manufactures play into this perfectly, just look at some companies ads that announce, "first radio with" and all that stuff. I dont have anything against ten-tec but tentec just came out with an ad like this in I think QST...its a dateline that announces how they were first to bring out a radio that did this thing or that thing, year by year.

Every business has to prioritize, and ham radio producers are focused on having short design and development times to get the newest tricks/gizmos into radios before their competitors. Of course testing and reliability can not also be top priority.

In a way, this is more in keeping with the experimental nature of amateur radio, snd should not necessarily be discouraged. If ham radios were built with just standard technology and features in standard form factors (being as big as they really should be for good performance), then ham radio itself would loose some of its experimental nature and many hams who operate in unconventional settings would be out of luck (for example the ham who needs a compact 817 do everything rig to operate at lunch at work).

73 de Tom, N2YTF

P.S.
I completely dissagree with the OFF TOPIC comments of EXPAT, and could write a long response but will not.

RE: the solution is: BUILD IT YOURSELF!

by KD5UJX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I had to send my FT-857 in for service on a problem that was most likely my fault. YAESU got it back in 2 weeks and fixed it under warrenty and did all the "updates" what ever that was (no explanation from YAESU)in a timely manner. The only complaint I have is VERY poor communication. I just bought another one!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB2FCV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think for VHF Gear, I like good quality stuff.. but its not something I necessarily want to service. For HF Gear, I love to build / repair / etc. Elecraft is great in that aspect that it performs very well, it's cost is reasonable, and it's something you don't have to send off anytime something breaks. As mentioned before, their support is superior to anything out there. I would not buy a new HF rig from the big 3 today. Alot of the stuff is throwaway in my opinion. Once it goes out of warranty, it'll cost more to fix it than it's worth. Sure, they can be fixed.. but surface mount stuff is entirely a different ballgame. I like older rigs, especially the boat anchors. They are pretty easy to diagnose, they sound great on the air (providing they are stable) and they 'feel' like a radio (to me at least). If I need something quick or light for a contest, I've got the K2 (I can always add the 100W option). If I want to kick back and rag chew.. then fire up those tubes!

RE: the solution is: BUY QUALITY!

by W9WHE on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think cheap hams sell out our hobby by refusing to buy quality equipment.

W9WHE
Supports the ARRL boycott.

RE: the solution is: BUY QUALITY!

by KB2FCV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Agreed!!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB2OEV on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have one thing to say; Get an Elecraft!!

73
Bob, KB2OEV

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2MMI on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Seems like the topic has taken a twist. It is one thing to debate what choice of quality/vs/price a manufacturer is taking, it is quite another thing when a manufacturer has knowledge of a design or manufacturing defect--and tries to cover it up.

In the US there are state and federal laws governing warranty, and for a company to KNOWINGLY continue to make and sell products with a known defect violates many of them. Companies that think they are clever often get away with it--until someone sics the FTC or state authorities on them, and they have to pay fines as well as compensate the users.

All I can suggest is that if owners of any radio, from any company, have reason to think that their radios were sold with a defect intentionally hidden or intentionally not remedied, get together, contact the powers that be, and sue for damages. I hate to say "sue" but some companies just aren't smart enough to stand up and do the right thing. A reputable company would at least say "We're aware of an issue, we'll repair that for free for you." The PR value of that is priceless.

When I've got a product failure, I'll ask ONCE. Nicely. Then I'll hit 'em with the biggest stick I can find.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AD5GX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had good luck with my Amateur Radio equipment: Icom 706 MarkIIg, Icom 746, Yeasu 1500, Yeasu FT-530, Yeasu VX-5, and Kenwood 707.

Notice I had options for each category. Each of my radios were chosen after speaking with other hams and reading eham reviews. Each of the above have incredible ratings and they proved to be true.

I do research for all big items (cars, computers, radios, etc). Each product has its lemons. Research is the only way to avoid them.

I agree with the poor customer service. But that is true across the board. (What do you do with a phone company that cannot spell your name right after multiple tries? You fire them!) Phone, satellite, internet, and many other companies rival eachother in the abhorrent quality of their customer service.

I for one am prepared to pay a premium simply for good customer service! For example, instead of selling extended warranties, stores should sell "Enhanced Customer Service". Meaning, for $100, you get a 800 number to a customer service department that is actually helpful!

Customer service will be the death of many companies. I think Walmart is successful not just because of low prices, but also because of the absolute best customer service available today.

73!

Matt AD5GX

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG6AMW on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"I think cheap hams sell out our hobby by refusing to buy quality equipment." Ok, I'll bite. How?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG6QHP on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

As a manufacturing consultant, I have dealt with many companies that had the mistaken notion that building inferior, defective equipment loaded with "bugs" was a tradeoff to meeting competition on price. Others mistakenly equated high quality with high cost. The truth is that it can be cheaper to build a high quality product than a low quality product. High quality products do not generate customer complaints which reduces the need for customer service and "repair" departments. High quality products generate word of mouth advertising which is not only free but it is the best way to generate increased sales. The slogan of Packard was "ask the man who owns one". Conversely purchasers of lemons on average tell about 20+ of their friends their troubles cutting sales. High quality products also have a loyal customer base that leads to repeat sales. Poor quality saps management relegating them to never ending fire-fighting activities choking off future growth.

In the 70's my mom bought a Chrysler lemon that was always in the shop and within 3 years the body had rust - through holes the size of baseballs. The manufacturer told her that her car was "old" and needed to be replaced. She decided that Chrysler needed to be replaced. She has only had 2 Toyotas in over 20 years and brags about her trouble free cars to anyone who will listen.

The bottom line, don't buy junk. It only encourages them to build more junk.

73,

Jim

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by G0GQK on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The problem lies, not so much with the named manufacturers, but the hundreds of parts made by their suppliers who are probably in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Korea etc.
But of course it is their responsibility to ensure that the products sold in their name are of a merchantable quality. They need to lean on their parts suppliers. It would not make their quality control any better if a $899 rig sold for $1525 unless the quality is improved.

The quickest easiest way to do this is stop buying ! Then they will act pretty quickly.! This poor quality situation is very unusual for any Japanese manufacturer because they are all usually 110% efficient. Examples are Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KK7WN on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If you think that the late 1950's to early 1960's was the golden age of radio equipment quality ( many writers seem to think so), multiply the then price by approximately 6x to get today's dollar equivalent. For example, a Hallicrafter SX88 would now be selling for about $3,000 + and that is just the receiver. You also would have had to buy or build a transmitter. No doubt that today's equipment is less physically robust. However, given its complexity, the cost to give it boatanchor durability would probably far exceed what Ham's would probably be willing to pay.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KT8DX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hmm - I'm going to put a fly in the ointment here. After 26 years of hamming, I've only had two rigs - that's right two rigs - die on me. I'll tell you what they were at the end of the post. I'm a tough user of gear as well - lots of field days, camping, and mobiling here.

Here is the list of what I've owned over the years from current to the distant past:

FT-817 (the second best thing I've ever held)
Patcomm PC-500
Patcomm PC-9000
Patcomm PC-16000A
Ten-Tec Century 21 A and D
TT Corsair
TT Omni-D
TT Argonaut 505 and 509
TT ARGO 556
IC-756PRO
IC-746
IC-738
IC-200
TT Paragon
Norcal Sierra
HW-7
HW-8
SB-102
HW-101
SB-104A
SBE-36 (total junk but it worked)
Tempo One
Tempo 2020
FT-7
Knight R-100a
Knight T-150
FT-840 (great rig)
BC-348
Kenwood R-599/T-599
Radio Shaft HT-202
HT-404
HTX-245
TS-707G
SGC 2020

I'm sure I had more, but that is all I can remember.

The ones that failed:

The Paragon (major loop board was a major source of problems)
SGC SG-2020 that frequently lost its PLL lock till finally lost it permanentally.

I'm not defending rice boxes here, just pointing out that the American manufactures aren't perfect either.

My favorite all time rigs? The two I currently own - the C21 and the FT-817. One is honest and the other has little power but a huge ego. Just like me I guess.

73s and enjoy

KT8DX

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AE6IP on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Although I understand the issues involved from the vendor's point of view, I can't really speak directly to the price/performance/cost/profit issues in consumer electronics, for various reasons.

So, instead, let me draw you an analogy, from musical instruments.

In the early 60s, when I first started to play guitar, one could buy a cheap guitar from an outfit like Honer for about $100 in the US. One could instead buy a Martin for around $500. If one were a classical guitarist, one could get one's name on a list, and a particular Spanish luthier would, eventually, make one a guitar for around $1500. The Martin was a much superior guitar to the Honer, probably more than 5 times better than the cheap guitar. The Spanish guitar was far superior to anything one could find in the US, but there was only one luthier in the entire world who could make them.

Fast forward to 2000, the last time I went to the Healdsburg Luthier festival. One could still buy a cheap guitar from an outfit like Honer for about $100 in the US. It's pretty much the same guitar as it was then. Or, one could buy a Martin, but rather than $500, one would find it for around $3000. The classical guitar? The one spanish master luthier now has a waiting list longer than he's likely to live. On the other hand, one can now find dozens of very good luthiers in the US, capable of making guitars of the same quality. The problem? The guitar I lusted after, but didn't buy at Healdsburg, which was typically priced, was $16,000.

Meanwhile, the Gretsch Country Gentleman that I bought in '72 for $300, and sold in '82 for $500, is now on the market. The current owner wants $5000 for it, and will probably get that. A brand new Gretsch Country Gentleman, a guitar Gretsch started making again a few years ago, is $3000.

One problem in ham radio is that Hams want to play the guitar I didn't buy for $16,000, but they only want to pay $100 for it.

The other problem in ham radio is that too many Hams still buy the $100 guitar, keeping the market for it alive.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7VO on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I'll be a dissenting voice. There's more good stuff out there than bad and it costs less (in real dollars) than ever before. Rigs like the Yaesu FT-817 and the Tokyo Hy-Power HT-750 are marvels of engineering.

The THP HT-750 didn't make it on the American market because hams here didn't want to shell out $519 for a 6, 15, and 40 meter SSB/CW HT of superb quality with a receiver that rivals many base rigs. Well... the rest of the world did and American QRPers in the know kept ordering them factory direct. (Two QST articles on the HT-750 over the years didn't hurt.) The HT-750 was just discontinued after 12 years on the market. A new 6-80m all band HT is in development. THP is supposed to be reentering the U.S. market, too. Will Americans buy quality this time for a few dollars more than Icom or Yaesu? We'll see.

High end rigs tend to perform like high end rigs. I don't see bi**hing and moaning about the Icom IC-756ProII, TenTec Orion, or Yaesu FT-1000MkV in the posts above, do I? I see moaning about $129 2m rigs. Well.. you know what. The manufacturers do make good on them when they fail, don't they?

Bottom line: you get what you pay for.

73,
Caity
K7VO

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7AZN on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I run Icom, sure I had a problems and Icom America corrected it. No charge and returned @ no charge in just a few days.
Our community has purchase a number of IC 2100 H and Ns models with no problem.
Some of the IC 2100's had loose screws that secured the main board, tightening them corrected the trouble.
Every manufactures has equipment failures, from TV's to Cars, that is why they apply a warranty. Just shipping the equipment is reason enough to suspect troubles. Ever see how the packages are handled?
New Radio equipment has so much going on in them that it seems to me a wonder they work at all.
Hang in there people. They are doing the best they can and still make an affordable product.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG4PFO on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Have we been sold out, No...I dont think so.
I think they are pretty much making the products disposable, much like many other things you buy this day and time....A better question is: do you get what you pay for......Sometimes.
I see several post suggest Hams are cheap.
Im not spending Five grand on a radio.
I would be more willing to spend a thousand every couple of years and have a new radio in hand.

David

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC7MM on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Radio Manufacturers haven't sold anyone out. NS5U, I agree with you 100%. Same with KK7WN. Most of you in eHam land don't seem to have a clue about economics. If Art Collins was building and selling his gear today, a transmitter would cost you as much as two Ten Tec Orions! I will take a new Orion any day! Let's look at the economics supported by the "good old days" crowd. Let's say you found your dream machine KWM-2, at an SK estate sale. In order to get it back to factory specs, You bring it home, strip it down and completely rebuild it. You will end up with a honest to goodness work of art. But consider the price: first your purchase price, plus the time you put into it. Let's say conservatively 100 hours. At $8 minimum wage equivalent per hour, you have $800 into it PLUS parts. buy new! The reality of the world is that people during the depression up through the late 70's built more equipment than now because they couldn't afford to buy new stuff! And a lot of that homebrew stuff was really garbage. I don't see a lot of it being sold here, do you? Right now, I would love to buy an Orion, but just can't justify the outlay. So I do with second hand.

I think we are all getting poorer as the effects of the global economy become more pervasive. To keep prices down, industry of all types is buying machines to do most of the work. World population continues to increase, creating many more folks who are just as smart as we are willing to work for a lot less than we are accustomed to. So blue and now white colar jobs are flowing out of industrialized countries into third world countries. Because we have less to spend, we want cheaper products, but don't want to give up all the whistles and bells. So industry tries to make what we want at prices we can afford. With profit margins squeezed to the bone, they sometimes let bad products out into the market. Other industries have done and do the same thing. Remember the Ford Pintos whose gas tanks blew up when the little cars were rear-ended. Or the Bronco II's that rolled over unexpectedly. Ford knew about both problems but continued to market the vehicles because it would have cost them too much to fix them or replace them.

So now it's happening to the ham radio industry. How to get around it? Buy quality, even if it means having to build it yourself or buying used. Go Elecraft and Ten Tec.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC5NYJ on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"if the hams had supported our domestic manufacturer's"

That's brings me to an interesting point to ponder. Would ham radio have as many members today were it not for the influx of competitively priced Big 3 rigs? Would Hammarlund have survived? What would be a reasonable price for a Collins dual band mobile today?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2HJN on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Granted, if you pay a lot for a radio you expect it to work as advertised BUT I thought us hams were supposed to be able to fix busted radio equipment? And don't give me that surface mounted story. If you are a ham and can't fix your radio...shame on you. I have worked on broken laptop computers with a modified soldering iron and a cheap MICROSCOPE. Almost burned myself holding the iron a few inches from my face but it worked. Some things can't be fixed but most can if you need to.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB4QNG on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yes and No. We do have problems we shouldn't have with radios but then we have problems with every thing we buy that we shouldn't have. I will say that in 1975 an entry level HF would cost, correct me if I am wrong, 5 to 6 hundred dollars. According to a inflation web site that $600 radio would now cost you over 2 grand. Look at the 30 year old radio. No digital dial, no memeories, one VFO, no DSP, no built in SWL, Power meters, and you got to wait 30 minutes for them to warm up so they wouldn't drift. You also had to spend 5 minutes tune them up and if you went any distance up or down the band you got to retune them. You could work on them of course you had to replace the tubes, resitors ect when they went out. In 1975 you could buy you a mobile 2 meter rig for around $200. This same rig today would cost you over $600. Back then you got a 10 watt, 10 channel cyrstal control rig. Now I don't know about the rest of you but myself I will keep my $500 Icom-718 and my $169 Icom V8000 and I will be happy.
Terry
WB4QNG

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K3NG on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Y'all need to build an Elecraft, then if it doesn't work you can only whine at yourselves.

Geez, I'm confused. What's ruining our hobby now, cheap radios, expensive radios, American radios, or Japanese radios ? From past forums you'd think code / no code and the ARRL was wrecking the hobby but now I see it's cheap "sell out" hams. I see the ARRL has taken some blame here, though, with their advertising interests. I'm surpised no one has come to the conclusion that this is all an FCC conspiracy to eliminate the service so commercial interests can have our frequencies. It's so obvious. I'm ashamed that none of the astute eHam followers have figured this out.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8EKT on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

BUY JAPAN!
READ THE LABEL!
If it don't say "made in USA or Japan" DON'T BUY IT!
These new cheap radios are mostly made in china!
Where the quality of those 12 year old girls really shows in the solder connections.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Dude, I can think of 10 conspiracies-like dah!
However conspiracy theories are not too hip these days!
Remember...Paranoia is simply just knowing all the facts!(Willium S. Burroughs)

So I will not bore EHAM readers with my top two conspiracys! I did have a total of 15! They were real good ones too!(hi-hi)

Sorry no deep throut in a Washington Garage here!
Maybe you can dig up the smoking man from the X-files.
He had the REAL TRUTH! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!!!!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W4LGH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sold out or not sold out? Is that really the question?
Are ham cheap? "That's why I run Collins gear". All interesting statements.

1st off I do not think we were sold out. Being involved in the Electronics industry my entire life, I really don't think anyone was sold out. As a matter of fact I have always said, "Why is it that the one thing everyone wants (electronics), do they want to give it away? Look at cell phones, the first ones were $1200 and that was with service. Now they give them away. And they are full blow complex DIGITAL tranceivers.

Hams aren't necessarily CHEAP, we all have a small fortune (sorta speak) invested in our stations. I say small fortune because its all relative to our desposable income. What we all want is a perfect radio, with all the bells and whistles, all modes, all bands etc., and we want all this is a small compact box that will fit in our rooms. The manufactures have tried to do this and at a cost that the market will bear. The engineering is one thing, but then the plans go to the "BEAN" counters, who know nothing about engineering, and they say, cut this, cut that, will it still work? Well the engineers look at it and have to say YES, it will work, BUT.... However the "BEAN" counters don't want to hear the "BUT" word! They say, cut it out, we'll save a dollar on each radio, times the number of radios, and that ads up quickly. Now what will the market bear?? Well you can buy a fully loaded Flat screen 20" color TV for $100. But how many of these TVs will be sold, in comparison to the number of HAMS. So its a small nitch market, 700,000 hams to 150,000,000 TV owners! So we really ought to be happy that someone out there really wants to be in the business. Forget the actual COST of manufacturing, would you rather build and sell 150,000,000 TVs for $100 each or 700,000 radios for $1000 each? Do the math!! After all we created this FREE ENTERPRISE economy.

The comment about "Thats why I run Collins" Well Collins was a fine radio, and it was built like a battleship, it was also a big as a battleship in compairson to todays radios. Also a Collins rig in 1957 was close to $1000, whats that in 2004 dollars?
And last, if you take the total number of Collins radios built from their start to their end, all models, and I would bet Kenwood, Yaesu and Icom have built 100+ times that number. I would bet that Collins never made CLOSE to a million ham radios over their entire operating carear. Can't say that about Kenwood, Yaesu or Icom. 5% failure rate, is a 5% failure rate. 5% of a million is 50,000 and 5% of 10 million is 500,000. Again, do the math!

So NO I do not think the manufactures have SOLD us out. We have SOLD ourselves out, and should be damn glad that someone out there still wants to make products for us.

Look at MFJ, everyone loves picking on the "Mighty Fine Junk" company, but we all own and use something that he has made, why, because he will make things that no one else wants wants to bother with, but makes our hobby a little more fun and enjoyable.

If man makes it, it WILL break! So of the worlds finest engineers designed the space shuttle, and 2 of those out of the 180+ missions have broken. Thats less than 2% failure rate guys. If you are going to look @ numbers, look @ all the numbers!!

I am stepping down from my engineering soap box, but welcomeany and all comments. (And yes I have had to send radios back for repairs many times! Waiting on one to be returned right now.)

73 de W4LGH - Alan
www.w4lgh.com

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by RobertKoernerExAE7G on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Great rant.

Add BMW and Harley Davidson motorcycles to your list of companies to stay away from.

BMW, for a couple of years, shipped its L1200LT series MC with a known programming problem in their engines. As soon as temps hit mid 80s and up, the engine would have a flat spot around 2200 RPM. Getting a re-programmed chip, to get the engine running correctly, entailed waiting 11-13 months.

Plus, many of the 1200 series MCs have a rear bearing failure rate around 7-15%; The 99 and 00 K1200Lts had a known defective starter relay, if the voltage dropped to 11 volts or less; the relay would freeze closed—no way to disengage the starter. New starter, around $200 plus labour.

Think BMW notified its customers and recalled the MCs to fix then—NO WAY!

Think the speedometer in your car or MC is close to accurate? According to the US government it doesn’t have to be. My BMW’s speedo, by design, off by 8% plus 2 mph—subtract 8% minus another 2 mph to get your actual speed.

As far as I know, at least Alpha still makes amps built to last.

Next time I’m in the market for a new rig, my TS950S, Drake C-Lines and TR4CW still work fine, I’ll be scanning the internet for known problems of current and past production rigs. I figure a rig has to be out for 2-3 years before we find out if its designed well, and has good quality parts.

Bob

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8TPI on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

i agree with VK5CC...I have all old vintage gear like drake and collins and hallicrafters and my lastest a johnson viking valiant..I do however own a yaesu ft990 and an ft840 which i got both on a trade deal..Not to mention the inferior quality the noise factor on the japanese radios is phenominal.I hear people at swaps talk about having an icom 765 and they say i like the rig ok but it is noisy over all.I know some will say that nuts but if you listen on 40 or 80 or 160 meters youll definitely notice a much higher noise floor than say a ten tec..i know this because i have done comparisons with my drake c line and my friends tentec corsair 2 only to be disappointed.Want more proof? Just look at resale value of a kenwood or a yaesu or icom and youll notice you cant give em away unless you have definite buyer..Every ten tec ive ever seen at a swap got its price pretty much even if it was an omni c or any rig.I realize the crystal mixing they use has a lot to to with the low noise floor but also remember the tentecs are modular and are easy to service.Ive known people that have sent their 850 kenwoods into kenowwd for service only to get a 300 bill saying they cant fix it properly.That is sad and just remember you sent your money to the japanese economy to recieve dissapointment.How sad.I love my old tube gear..I can service it and i have all the parts or can attain them easily..Think next time about ten tec.They stand behind their equipment and have a very dedicated following..its no wonder why.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by SSBDX on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

In response to the "if hams supported American manufacturers we would have better radios" comments, some hams either have no memory or a short one.

Over the years I have used most the American popular rigs, like TR-4, SR150 and SR400, Sb102, HW12, KWM2, HQ180, Drake 2b, and a few more. What I remember wasn't all that positive.

Hallicrafters made some very mediocure radios that I thought could have been much better. Heath is out of the kit business for one reason, they made some of the worse junk you could buy except for Eico. I really liked Drake but hated the sweep tubes they just had to always use in transmitters. Collins was relatively expensive and didn't change their look for 25 years. I can get bored looking at the same design for 25 years.

American ham equipment was for the most part forgetable. Most of the manufacturers never stayed in business because of hams. Virtually every manufacturer made commercial or military radios and that is what kept them in business. Government contracts come as feast or famine.

In other words, hams made little difference in keeping American manufacturers in business. And American quality overall wasn't all that good.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What is a rockwell collins KWM-380 going for these days? Solid state commercial grade.
I would rather buy that radio then spend $8000 on that ICOM 7800.

I can also add Audio DSP to my TR-7. A third party does sell a real RF speech proc for the TR-7.
Even with out the AUX-7 board you can hard wire diodes in for favorite freqs. 1 cut jumper gives WARC and MARS+.

If you can pick up a used TR-7 for under $500, there is plenty of room to add in modifications. Put in a keyer board. Build your own TCXO synthesiser to replace the PTO. See www.minicuicuits.com

The DRAKE TR-7 is build like a tank. Just add in a crummy audio DSP for psuedo notch and other DSP wonders. A real RF speech proc module that plugs in between the mic and the rig.

There you have it, A drake rig that blow any audio DSP radio out of the water!

It will put the TS-570 to dirt shame! Blow away many of the new under $1200 rigs.

SINK OR SWIM!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KI4CRA on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No, I don't think so. I have had all 3 Yaesu, Icom and Kenwwood. Didn't have a problem with any of em. My current rig is an Icom 706MKIIG, I also have a Kenwood 820S that I still use. I don't think as K4SFC put it that we are affluent, maybe he is, but I'm not! I had to save and sell and save some more to get those items. As a matter of fact I sold my Yaesu to a gentleman from SC. for his 706mkIIg + a little cash. I can state one thing tho, that my rice box as you call them out performs my kenwood. Don't get me wrong the kenwood is a great radio even if it almost 30 yrs old.
All I'm saying is look before you leap, if you have a problem with your new rig whatever brand it may be, thats what the warranty is for folks! We have them (warranties) on just about everything we buy now a days. If you can't get satisfaction from one person move on up to the next in line, and so on. True you get what you pay for, but those of us that are disabled and on fixed incomes have to be a little more frugal than the rest. I can't do the kit ones as I can't sit for more than a few minutes, it would take me a year to do it myself, no thanks. I'll just stick with what I know, and what works for me, and come hell or high water I'll stick with Icom, maybe not new but I'll definetly stick with Icom. Just my $.02 worth.

Nothing New

by WPE9JRL on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Consider my old Johnson Viking Valiant transmitter built right here in the good ol' USA circa 1957. This transmitter's components are stressed out to the max. It's a wonder any of them are still around and have not melted down on the tabletop. The B+ has to deliver close to half an amp while modulating, the bandswitch contacts heat up and self-destruct, the dreaded VFO resistor craps out.....etc, etc.

Ham gear is cheap junk....I don't care if it's a Collins 75A-4 or a Icom Pro. If you've ever worked on commercial gear, you would know what the cost is to carry a radio past 5-10 years of useful service with little or no downtime. It is expensive.

We should be happy how cheap in cost today's ham gear is compared to the tube junk of forty years ago. Remember the bad old days when a pair of sweep-tube finals demanded to be changed every twelve months?

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by KC2MMI on February 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

< I will say that in 1975 an entry level HF would cost, correct me if I am wrong, 5 to 6 hundred dollars. According to a inflation web site that $600 radio would now cost you over 2 grand.>

Come on folks, we all know better than that. In 1978 a SONY 19" color television cost $600 discount, bottom dollar. Today a 25" color TV from a dozen companies costs 1/3 of that. You can't simply compare the price of anything based on flat inflation adjustments.

And incidentally, back them SONY was trying to earn a reputation for the best color TV in the world. They literally inspected each component before assembly, then imspected the boards after assembly, then inspected the entire set--every set--after complete assembly. The triple inspection process cost them a fortune, but unlike Hitachi (1980) and Samsung (1990) SONY didn't ship loads of DOA sets. Now? SONY has met market price pressures, and they no longer perform inspections any differently from anyone else. Which might be why my last SONY radio had four cold solder joints. So much for price adjustments.

My 6MHz/16bit IBM/AT cost $3300 dealer net in 1983 or 1984, just the box, no printer, no monitor, no nothing. Today a $500 system from a half dozen vendors runs at 2.4GHz/32 bit and that's an 800-fold increase in speed, plus it is way more reliable, smaller, and runs cooler while it outperforms the old systems in every way. So who cares what a boat anchor cost twenty years ago? A hundred and fifty years ago aluminum was the most precious expensive metal on the earth. Today? We throw it out daily.

And my obsolete old laptop, now crumbling in its 5th or 6th year, still has more computer power than the entire Apollo program had--ALL of the program. Of course mine didn't include Tang and SpaceBars, maybe that's why it was cheaper?

The bottom line is that the ham radio market is too small to allow anyone to make "enough" profit, and still make top line gear. Selling top quality in any marketplace is damned hard, and in a tiny market even harder.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WF7A on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Pardon me while I vent a spleen. :) I like to play Devil’s advocate, so let’s look at it from the manufacturer’s point of view.

Because of the computer industry we’ve grown spoiled and expect more features for less money in our consumer goods. We all have stories of how our first computer system cost thousands of dollars, yet for the same dollar amount we can now buy systems 300+ times more powerful than those we had 15-20 years ago. Yet, how much profit does CompUSA make on each, modest, IBM PC-compatible it sells today? Around $10.00. Really: ten bucks, paisanos. (They make their money on everything in the store _but_ the computers.)

We’ve also become a nation of beta testers, both in software and hardware. In a rush to beat the competition, manufacturers will cut corners in R&D and quality control to get their product out onto the market. “We’ll fix it later” is the paradigm most companies operate by nowadays as part of their business stragety and it’s not going to go away anytime soon.

Let’s look at the amateur radio market—a niche market that's shrinking. For the Big 3, ham gear is pretty much an afterthought and not a money-making venture for them, so they have no inclination to invest R&D or Quality Control bucks to improve their products and services. Sure, we should expect exemplary customer service, but the simple truth is since we’re not the mainstay of their income they're not motivated to go out of their way to please us. (Smaller companies, whose incomes rely heavily on our dollars, are smart enough to know that customers are king and if we’re not treated well their livelihoods will suffer.) Moreover, some of lower and middle managers and executives of the Big 3 regard us a more with contempt than anything else. (I won’t quote you what one former executive from Icom thinks of us, just to keep this post G-rated.)

Not only does money talk but well-written and constructive letters of complaint directed to the right people work well, too. Just ranting with "Your Blivet 101 model bites the big one!" won't do any good to change or improve things. Sometimes, it's a people issue: a personnel change can be just as important as a component change, my friends.

But I digress…

Could the Big 3 build us the ultimate rig where it would knock our socks off? Sure, the technology has been around for years now so they could if they really wanted to. (Big kudos to Ten-Tec for producing firmware-driven rigs—that’s the real wave of the future.) However, if they did that then you wouldn’t buy another rig for y-e-a-r-s, so to make up lost revenue they’d have to charge big $$ for those radios to pay for tooling, training, servicing and marketing costs. Would you be willing to pay big bucks for perfection? It depends on your income and love of the service/hobby, I guess. Most of us don’t have that kind of money so we’re willing to buy the Yugos (MFJ), Pintos and Hondas of the amateur radio equipment market and put up with their foibles and shortcomings.

What to buy? Aye, that's the brain hernia. I’ve found eHam to be an indispensable source of terrific feedback…but that can be a problem, too: I’m having the worst time deciding which HF rig to buy--it’s truly an agonizing decision! I’ve owned equipment from the Big 3 and *blush* MFJ and they’ve performed all right for my use. (I’m a dyed-in-the-wool CW guy. I may be slow now, but I’m fierce.) I’m leaning toward either a Ten-Tec Jupiter or Orion because they’re easily upgradeable whereas all the current rigs from the Big 3 are not. Maybe they'll learn. :)

Ciao!
Rich

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W9JCM on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Cheap hams?? Guess what its a hobby and isnt supposed to cost a arm and leg. It didnt back in the day. Why now? Because the big 3 or 4 know that we have a lot of appliance operators that want pretty looks and every option you can think of and will pay for it. Just like the yuppies ridding harley davidsons same mentality. (NOTE: you will never see me on that harley stuff to slow and fat. Go Jap bikes!)But people do have a right to get the most out of there hard earned dollar. And I follow that to a T. Anyhow there are good rigs and bad rigs. Good buys and bad buys you have to do your homework. Just like buying a new or used car. Thats one great thing about Eham.net I always read the reviews on here before making a purchase. Looking up the ARRL tests are little if any help because the in croud knows the would never bash anything. When is the last time you read a article in QST or CQ that totally ripped apart a rig or other piece of equipment? I havent in the last 6 years. Bottom line always buyer beware doesnt matter if new or used do your homework.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KE4MOB on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Interesting comparisons: back in the early 90's before I got my ticket I was deep into amateur astronomy. Instead of the "Big 3", amateur astronomy had the "Big 2": Meade and Celestron. I can remember going thru the latest "Sky and Telescope" and "Astronomy" looking at all the ads for those two manufacturers...but my eye always caught upon that ad for the tiny little 3.5" Maksutov...the stainless steel Questar that retailed for umpteen thousands of dollars.

I still don't have the Questar....I settled for a Dobsonian light bucket from Coulter Optical before they tanked in the mid-nineties. Took three months of waiting for them to grind that slab o' glass...

Back on topic though:

Should we ask for more from the manufacturers? Sure. But why should they listen? The used market is swamped with radios in the 3 to 5 year age range. Why? Because as soon as the latest model comes out, we dump the old one. It's like a drug. The manufacturers know that no matter what they put out, we will buy. We gripe and groan about poor radios, all the while patiently standing at the door waiting for the UPS truck to arrive with the latest and greatest.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KA1IS on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I wrote to the ARRL 2 months ago, suggesting they may want to look into the icom 746pro situation - see if its real or significant, and follow up on their review of that product.

I gave up waiting for a reply. Can we assume that self-preservation through advertising revenue outweighs the courtesy of a reply to a member?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N2YZS on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I use Ten Tec. Solid performance, well designed, and backed by the best support and service available. I agree that they are not always the nicest looking rigs, but the guy on the other end can't see it anyway. The real beauty of any rig is on the inside, and Ten Tec shines in that department.
I've never owned an Electrocraft, but I understand that they are also good in all departments, including service and support.
By the way, IF DSP is NOT CRAP!!! When I can afford an Orion, you can bet your life I will have one! IF DSP is the future of ham radio, and the future is here!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K0RGR on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I've had some great radios. My luck has not been as good lately.

I still love my little FT-817 even if it failed after an hour on the air. The repair center blamed 'defective resistors'. Still magical, though. Great for portable PSK31.

My IC-746 still works great. Once in a while, I have to hold the power button down a few seconds to get the backlight to come on.

But I almost can't forgive ICOM for the 2720H. I should have dumped mine the day I bought it. If you buy a good outboard intermod filter, you can still enjoy the rig. But, if I wanted to spend $100 more on the rig, I'd have bought a different one.

I'm very intrigued by the new Ten Tec. It sounds like the receiver is truly outstanding. I've always been willing to fork over extra money for a better performing RX. And, yes, I can confirm that their customer service is fantastic. I had one of their first Triton 100 W rigs a few decades ago. I actually won both phone and CW Swwepstakes contests for my section with it! My brother borrowed it and broke the dial mechanism. After it sat in a closet forgotten for ages, I contacted Ten Tec to see if I could get parts - they were able to completely repair the ancient thing!

Ten points for Elecraft, too.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WF7A, excellent feedback. You were very objective!

I really do not think you will go wrong by buying a TEN-TEC ORION or JUPITOR. I know one of them has true IF DSP as well as an excellent 2nd IF XTAL switch choice.

This way you have a very well conventionally filtered radio and true IF processing.

If you call TEN-TEK, I am sure a very nice person will explain the diffences of the 2 radio's! I think that is an excellent test of what future service would be.
TEN-TEK will answer any question once you have one of their radio's. The realise TEN-TEK is a word of mouth corp, for new and repeat buyer source's

I think the Orion was judged better in RX than the gold standard(TS-850sat)

Gee I am thinking of an ORION.
Then again if I bought every rafio that I thought was good, I would have 10 rigs(Hi-HI)!

Which ever Ten TEK you get, please let us know about it by doing a EHAM EQUIPMENT REVIEW.

I have found 1 honest NON KENWOOD repair service.
Do not wan tot give any plugs. Just look for the review
with many positive stories.

Eham is an excellent resource buy having pier review of ham equipment. You can also get the ARRL's party line on the rig. You then have the ELMER section.

I think you also get very good opinions from hams that have acually owned just about every rig. Many, like my self use service monitors on rigs I review on EHAM.

So please be a YENTA when you get either rig on the air!

73 DE MIKE

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N6AJR on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have owned them all.. from a clipperton L to a sbe 33 and sbe 34, And ameritrons ( 4 or 5 amps , 2 811's 1 811h, an als 500)I have had ft101e series ( 4 or 5) and loved the zd.. a couple of tempos.. ( not my favorites) and a ton of yaesu, kenwood and icom stuff.

curently I have a yaesu ft 840 in my pickup with a 300 watt amp and a MFJ tuner , and a IC 2100 for 2 meters.. in my car I have a kenwood G707 dual bander, in the shack I have a ft847 for satalite work and AO40, and 2m and 6 m and 440 sideband work, I habe a ic 746 pro with an at500 and an ic 2kl for contesting position 1 for search and pounce and a ic 756 with the als 500 and a at 500 tuner for pos 2 for contesting in the grab a freq and yell cq contest positi8on, an a kenwood 570 with the ameritron 811h and a dentron MT 2000 for my rag chews, a rat shack 10 meter rig and 4 astron power supplies and 2 ic 125 power supplies, and a hombrew for the 43 volt supply for the ic 2kl. I have a 300 watt 2 meter mirage amp, a couple of 170 wat 2 meter amps, a couple of 100 watt uhf amps, an all of my meters are dual cross needles, from diawa, mfj and workman. most of my rotors ar cde ( cdr) or kenpro or yaesu. I also have a yaesu ft 1500. and a kenwood 261 in the shack for repeater work at home.

I don't remember what else is stored in the closet.

I have bought stuff new from HRO and on line and at Ebay and from fellow hams, I also have sold a bunch of stuff and given a bunch of stuff away, to youngesters, fellow hams and school clubs and such.

I will spend a thousand or $1500 on a new rig, and I am too old an shaky to build any more.. ( I spent 8 years in the air force in electronic counter measures repair, so building my own rig is not appealing to me) and my eyes are going bad too. this getting old is not for sissies!!

Any how, I have had a lot of equipment, and have good luck with almost all of it.. I did not like the SBE stuff( cheep back then and not any better now) And have had a few pieces of gear hold up when I did something wrong (1500 watts into NO antenna) and still work.. so I think as a whole we are getting value for our money. but we have a responsibility to support the home stores so they stay in business. any how..

So bottom line, most of the stuff is better than what we pay for it, and some times crap fails.. from a cadilliac to volksssswogen,,poo poo occourrs. I have had good service from kenwood and icom and never delt with yaesu..

Be careful to buy good stuff , take care of it and be glad we are in a country that allows us such a wonderful variety and oppourtunity to purchase such good stuff at so many places for such a decent price..

thanks to all from Alinco to elecraft to yaesu, you guys are doing ok in my book

and remember he who dies with the most toys wins!
73 tom N6AJR

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7FD on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Solution: Elecraft K2

73, John K7FD

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB6SSW on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

An old axiom: customer service is only as good as the company's products. A company that makes a quality product will be willing to stand behind the product. Even after Collins became but a small avionics division of Rockwell, they would still take a ham's phone call. Well after Drake stopped making ham gear they still were available with parts, service and free technical advice. Call SGC. Someone actually answers the phone. And, although they had some startup problems with the early versions of the SG2020, they stood behind their product (at least in my experience) and quickly resolved the problems.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K6BBC on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Audio distortion developed in my Yeasu FTDX – 560 about 3 years into use. I traded it in for a Kenwood TS-520. From that point on, I NEVER had any problem with any of the Kenwoods, Yeasus, or Icoms I purchased for HF or VHF. I currently am running an IC-178, IC-706, and Yeasu FT-817. All great rigs. 30 years without a problem. NONE.

K6BBC

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by OE3HPU on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with WD 9 UDJ and (partly) as well with N 2BSD.
I am a quality engineer (not in the same but similar business )and I also have to face that in todays economical life there are other things than quality that count. Time to market, production facilities abroad , low payed employees for beeing the cheapest, turn over goals etc.
Therefore the usual and well known feedback loops between production,engineering ,development and customer service do not work properly. If faith is with you,you get a shining star out of the R&D department ,everything works ,no problems in production etc. - than you are lucky and get a perfect product.This is more likely with budget products at high production numbers than it is with expensive sophisticated equipment (example: FT 840 versus FT 1000MKv or IC 718 : IC 756 ,IC 746 PRO. Another factor is time . Less people in the service departments have to care for more upset customers . This won`t work.
Another point is that many companies reduce QD staff and replace them by " Q systems ". (I ask you :What is a red light good for if one passes the crossing, knowing that there is no police on hand). In practice you need both ,a system (simple and effective)AND control methods.
My prescription is: Reduce the number of models,reduce the number of unnecessary features,concentrate on basic performance ,increase the price (by 30 % or so),keep the salaries reasonable ,but increase the number of employees (especially R&D,QA and service). Good craftmanship also means: Work is Joy.

Hans

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out? - No

by W3RAZ on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The radio manufacturers have all done an ecellent job i smy feeling. I know it may not be yours, but it is mine. My two recent purchases:

Icom W2A - fine HT. Only issue was a NiMH battery that died after a year of HEAVY use. Thats ok! I got my money's worth out of it and traded up to:

Yaesu VX-7R - The best HT I have ever owned. Of COURSE it gets ate by intermod....it's a 4 band radio. It's GOING to happen. I have NEVER had intermod eat me anywhere except within Downtown Columbus and even then it doesn't happen everyday. I have worked many traffic nets from in my office or right outside (get out better) the office. I have dropped my ht (not many times...a couple), I have stored it in my backpack, I have it shoved in my laptop backpack's slash pocket I have used it on a bus, in a car and it pretty much has done everything I have asked of it. The shortwave recieve ain't great, but thats mostly because of the ht antenna. If I spent the time to make a SWL antenna, I am sure it would do fine.

I think the overall problem is that we hams expect the world, for under 500 dollars. You get what you pay for. Also, you CAN'T expect ANY radio to live very long with a HIGH SWR! 2:1 is usually considered fine, but why settle for that? You can tweak the tuner well enough to get this within reason. JUST because your radio says it will protect itself in high SWR situations doesn't mean you should push your luck! I have a HTX-10 that I have a CB whip tuned closed to 1:1 near the middle of the band and WITHOUT a tuner I can generally be fine. I got my HTX-10 for 50 dollars on Radio Shack clearance. Do I expect it to work miracles? No. I DID make a out of the country contact on 10 with this little radio (Honduras) and I am happy with that. You also can't treat your equipment bad and expect it to hold up. Just cuz it says its MIL-STD does not mean you should be careless with it...both physically and electrically.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W2CSH on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I own some Collins Equipment, some Drake Equipment and Heathkit rigs. I own them because as I am satisfying a leftover youth radio envy syndrom. As I satisfy my curiosity I sell them off. My every day radios are Ten Tec. I own 11 Ten Tec radios all of which will outperform the rice burners in receive sensitivity. I hav only had one problem with a Ten Tec scout I purchased new in 1997. Ten TEc fixed it for free when it was out of warranty and even installed the noise blanker for free while it was at the factory. Ten TEc answers its phones in english and will go the extra mile to satisfy. I own an Icom W32 HT, a Yaesu FT-90 mobile and a Yaesu VX-5R. All of them work just fine.

Now for those who's postings suggest using Motorola Radios for VHF/UHF the answer is simple. You have to pay somebody to reprogram them every time you want to use a new repeater or frequency. I can pick up a repeater book, find a new repeater and simply add the frequencies and tones in any HAM type HT from Japan. To do that with a Motorola radio I have to send the radio off, pay to have it programmed and get it back in two weeks. Kind of makes planning a weekend trip a nightmare doesn't it?

I recently built an Elecraft K2/100 for a friend. I finished it in December but liked it so much that I kept it for "Break in and Testing" until the end of January. He finally threatened to send the sheriff if I didn't turn it over. It took him, his wife and his mother-in-law to get it out of my hands in the driveway. I'm going to sell the Collins junk and build one for myself. Once I sell all the Collins crap I will have no need for the room full of test equipment and spare tubes.

Now for the guy who is an ex-patriot living in the Czech republic, Please turn in your passport and stay there. You are no American. Please don't pollute our country by taking your Tech test here. Besides if you don't even have a tech license what the heck do you know about radios anyway?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB5HWS on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

By this logic, I suppose MFJ has 'sold you out' since the date of their inception?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC0ATC on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If anyone has a dead 2mtr or dual band FM rig
they are tired of, just send it to me.

kc0atc

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2KUK on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

On an academic note, here's a nice summary of how product costs get calculated. One can imagine how product features and "quality" (however one defines it) are impacted by these business concerns.

The URL for the on-line book from which this excerpt was taken is: http://books.nap.edu/books/0309046769/html/index.html

(See page 15 there for this excerpt)

Target Costing

There are several ways in which a firm can calculate the acceptable cost of manufacturing. Some firms look at costs as a given, which, when subtracted from revenue, will indicate margins. Business strategy then focuses on what is done with the resultant margins. There is another way to deal with costs, however. Target costing, a technique developed by Japanese manufacturers, starts with margins. A firm builds a business strategy on the basis of the margins it will need if it is to make key investments and remain competitive. After deciding what future investment needs will be (in the context of a strategic business plan), a firm looks at the potential product revenue. By subtracting the needed margin from revenue, a firm calculates a "target cost," the cost it must achieve if it is to remain competitive, In this way the business strategy, not the cost structure of production, drives a company to set production goals and product prices in a proactive way."

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K4HJN on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I purchased a 10 year old Ten Tec Paragon with PS for $950 (with all the XTALS)about 1 1/2 years ago and then drove it to the Ten Tec factory 35 miles away where it was brought up to factory specs for $100. It has been a great rig and very dependable. Think:
1. American built 2. Excellent service 3. Reliable

If you don't want to spend big bucks, call them and check out what they have on the used shelf. You get to talk with someone helpful and friendly and you help keep a good American (and Tennessee) company in business.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K4HJN on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I purchased a 10 year old Ten Tec Paragon with PS for $950 (with all the XTALS)about 1 1/2 years ago and then drove it to the Ten Tec factory 35 miles away where it was brought up to factory specs for $100. It has been a great rig and very dependable. Think:
1. American built 2. Excellent service 3. Reliable

If you don't want to spend big bucks, call them and check out what they have on the used shelf. You get to talk with someone helpful and friendly and you help keep a good American (and Tennessee) company in business.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7ZP on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Just like talking politics... just wondering if we "spell it" AFFLUENT or EFFLUENT. We are responsible for the decisions WE make, more time spent reading reviews and searching for potential problems before we buy would help a lot.... also it might force the mfg's to design better crapola.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K3WQ on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I understand the affection for the older, pre-microprocessor controlled rigs. They are constructed from simple, easy-to-understand technology and are thus more serviceable. On the other hand, I very much enjoy the newer rigs, even though I'm less capable of servicing them. I accept this, knowing that this is how consumer electronics has evolved over the past 30 years.

I own an Icom IC-718--a bottom-of-the-line rig--because I have no desire to own an expensive "super-rig" full of features (especially memories) that I won't use. This reflects my attraction to the simpler technology of the past. It's unobtrusive, has an internal keyer and broadband receiver, all of which I have, in part or in whole, because of inexpensive microprocessors and surface-mount technology. This reflects my attraction to the new technology.

On the whole, I feel the newer stuff is a better deal. You get more feature per dollar than you did in the past, and it actually fits in your house or car. This, of course, comes with a price, often in the form of non-accessible components and cheesy, silk-screened buttons. Such is progress.

-Dave, K3WQ

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K3DWW on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Jeeze, I dunno what you're talking about OM. The only rig I've had a problem with in the last 25 years was an ICOM handi with an internal battery that had to go back to ICOM when it died of old age. Nor am I easy on them - our Alincos and FT470s put in 1000s of miles on H-D handlebars without complaint while our Kenwoods and other Yaesus bounced around in various cars and trucks. My only beef is too many features and too few knobs! Sorry to hear about y'alls troubles.
73, K3DWW

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by G0MJW on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No. When I was first licensed 21 years ago, the average HF rig cost £800. There were over 2$ to the pound back then as well. That was roughly one tenth of an annual salary for a young graduate.

Now I can buy a better rig, even at UK inflated prices, for £800. This is one twentieth of the annual salary for a poorly paid young graduate. The minimum wage works out at £8000 per year!

Prices have more than halved in 20 years. If you pay double, you sometimes get better quality.

Stick with what works

by WB2WIK on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I guess my feeling is "stick with what works."

I've had a lot of gear pass through my shack and shop over the years, but only the strong survive -- the rest comes and goes. Still use my 14 year-old TS-850S/AT and my 27 year-old Drake TR-7 system daily; in fact, since the TR-7 is analog and I use it on 60 meters where frequency stability is an absolute must, I never turn it off...it's been "on" for years.

WB2WIK/6

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB9JXE on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

My close friend and I both purchased new Yaesu radios at Christmas. The wives were cool with this (we told them after the fact). My buddy bought an FT-8800 and I got an FT-857.

We found that the FT-8800 had a known problem (not know to us) with cross-band repeat. It needed a factory fix. The FT-857 was fine, although turning the volume control ¼ does nothing. My buddy e-mailed Yaesu about the known problem with the FT-8800. We found out about it here on eham.net, not from Yaesu. I e-mailed Yaesu about an error in the FT-857 manual. Neither of us ever received a reply. It’s been nearly a month now. He finally called them on the phone and got his rig fixed. He had to pay to shipping it back to them for repair. This was a 2-day-old radio with a known design bug.

It seems to me that no matter what the subject, customer service is a lost art. Some vendors still provide it but they seem to be outnumbered by those who fail their customers. Kenwood answers my e-mails within a few days or the same day. DeLorme, maker of a popular PC mapping software package, was down right rude on the phone after I waited 15 minutes on a toll call to speak with them about their product problems.

Of course, customer service costs money. We as consumers seem to want the lowest prices possible. The price cuts come at the expense of something, quality or service, etc. Lately, the cost seems to be the exporting of jobs from this country. Sad. At some point, there will less people working here, in these united states, and fewer to pay taxes or buy anything.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W3DCG on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Lots of ranting...

I was so easily swayed to agreement, especially as costs of everything has gone UP except my salary/wage (it's really a salary desguised as a wage).

TV service providers (Cable and Dish) are going through the Ionisphere, at least where I live.
Water/Sewer, due to ABSOLUTE mismanagement, along with Garbage, and taxes in the now lousy city in which I live are beyond any kind of reasoning. There is nothing that can be done except pay or if lucky enough, sell.

Then, I got to thinking what the average car cost in say, 1966-1970, and then how much was one of the pinnacle radios, a Collins KWM2A? Seems like it was over 3 thousand dollars bare bones, no filters, no power supply. You could get a VERY NICE car then for that price.

Now an average car hovers around 20 grande.

The Pinnacle Radio of current production, is 3300, I hear Icom is coming out with some possibly 8 thousand dollar radio.

3300 bux for an Orion, that is, 33 hundred 2004 dollars, not 1960's early 1970's dollars. What kind of car will 3300 dollars get you now, in 2004?

With that in mind, how about, throw in all the extra filters it will hold for the best of all worlds. Need all that Auto Tuner stuff, so add on something GOOD, perhaps a MAC 200 from Washington state. Maybe go "cheap" save a few bux, get all In-Rads from Oregon.

In the end you'd still be in under 4 grande. 4 thousand 2004 dollars, not 1960s/70s dollars.

And what do you get for those 4000 dollars compared to a KWM2A and the matching power supply, by way of performance, and options-

The list is huge. They are completely different worlds.

So all things considered, when you look at radios such as the 817, 857/897 for complete versatility, when you see brand new + AF DSP for 500 bux in an IC 718, when you get IF DSP+100W+the finest keying money can buy for under 800 in a used Pegasus, and see things like the Orion with filters, and wonderful "tuners"/Couplers from SGC, any transceiver from Elcraft (in my book expensive but rock bottom for the performance it offers), the current offerings are not that bad, and the world of ham radio gear is healthy, NEVER BEEN BETTER.

Yep, I drooled over a TR-7 too when I was a kid, like I drooled over anything new back then, from Drake,Ten Tec, Cubic, to Kenwood/Yaesu/Icom, in that order. But Drake didn't make it, nor did Collins. Rockwell is still around, why not Collins? Why not Drake? When the military/government contracts dried up, what happened?

I wished Ten Tec had a mid level or low level offering that might include optional additional crystal filtering with RF DSP, but I'd rather they stay around- and if that means that I can wish until I can come up with 3800 bucks or else just do without it, that is fine by me.

I'd rather Ten Tec be financially sound, and doing the best they can, and still be making and SERVICING every radio they ever made 40 YEARS FROM NOW. If that means focusing on only making 3 HF radios, even only two, that is the choice I'd hope they would make. Elcraft does this.

Henry Ford did this.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB9NJB on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What a bunch of complete nonsense! I have Drakes (a C Line), and a Collins S-Line. I love the radios, and use them often, but they do not hold a candle to my FT1000MP Field in any category. You can buy far more radio today for far less money. In its day, an S-Line cost as much as the average car. As for quality control, I really don't think our ham products are more prone to failure than any other complex piece of gear.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N4KZ on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Here's something a little different regarding this topic.

Please stop making your words plural by adding 's. That is not correct.

Why do so many of you spell radios as radio's? If we are talking about more than one of something, just add an "s." Some words, such as box or church, need "es" to make them plural. It's radios, antennas or towers, etc. and not radio's, antenna's or tower's.

Putting 's on the end of a word shows possession. It has nothing to do with making it plural.

You criticize the makers of these radios but what really is broken is the American education system which produces students who can't spell or follow simple grammar rules.

Also, there is no reason to write ham as in ham radio in all capital letters. It is not HAM radio. Words should be all caps only when the word is an acronym, meaning the letters are the initials of a word or phrase. An example of a acronym is SCUBA which stands for self-contained underwater breathing apparatus.

It's just too painful to read many posts because they are full of grammar mistakes.

73, Dave, N4KZ
See you on the air!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB0GU on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Well it is not the radio mentioned in the original post, but the early version Kenwood TS870 I bought shortly after they were introduced is still working fine. It originally was released with some less than perfect performance problems and firmware & hardware updates were made on subsequently released units. As far as I know none of us who bought an early model were offered the upgrade at no charge or minimal charge or were even informed of the changes by the manufacturer. The 870 is still the best radio expenditure I have ever made and the rig works far better than any radio I have ever owned. I will be holding on to this one for a long time to come. The only reason I might part with this one is if I could get a newer one with the updates and improvements in place.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W1TXT on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Here's a list of Gear I've purchased over the years - at least what I can remember. I've listed those rigs I've owned and the number of times they needed to be serviced. With the exception of the TL-922a, all gear was purchased new.

Heathkit HW16.............................0
Yaesu FRG-7...............................0
Tempo One + Power Supply and Remote VFO...0
Kenwood TS-820S...........................0
ICOM R-7..................................0
ICOM 251A.................................0
Kenwood TS-940S/AT........................3
Kenwood TS-50 & AT-50.....................0
Ameritron AL-80A..........................0
Ameritron ATR-15..........................2
Ameritron RCS-8...........................0
Tokyo High Power HL-160V..................0
Astron RS-35A.............................1
Kenwood TL-922A...........................0
Kenwood TS-711A...........................0
Grundig Sat. 800..........................1
Kenwood TS-2000...........................2
Kenwood TS-B2000..........................1
Icom 706MKIIG.............................0
TenTec Centurion..........................0
ICOM 2100H................................0
Kenwood TH-F6A............................0
Kenwood TH-D7AG...........................0
Radio Shack HTX-202.......................1
Yaesu FT-2400.............................0

What I find interesting is WHY people keep purchasing gear that have had reported problems over and over again here on eHam.net. Take advantage of this forum and don't ignore those comments. Sure, sometimes you have to filter through the emotional stuff - good and bad - but you can get a good sense as to that what kinds of problems you'll get if you purchase that new rig.

Rigs I've strongly considered, but just couldn't bring myself to purchase - ICOM 746Pro and Yaesu FT1000 MK5 and Field.

73,
W1TXT / Tom

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KF3EG on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

GEEEEZZZZZZ !
Its not just radio's, look at the Car manufactures.
Hams cheap I don't think so, Hams buy well built amps for 2000 to 6000 dollars sometimes even more.
Prozac should come with an Icom IC 7800 for 8 grand, what in this world can this radio do for 8,000.00 bucks? Its keeping up with the Jones crap.
Listen around the bands,they all work when they work, some sound better than others, why, not because of better manufacturing, but because the so called( I read here) cheap Ham has invested in a High dollar Mic and EQ.
Chevy, Ford,Chrysler= Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood.
Some buy Chevy some buy Kenwood, its what you like.
And for the big question, What is made anywhere in the world today that does not malfuntion, break or wear out? Nothing, nothing lasts forever. Not even you!
I have owned many radio's and I find the older radio's like the TS520se to be made like a tank, doesn't make coffee, the only notch it has is in the side cover from a nasty bump,shift, is when I rock my butt in the chair,DSP (damn stupid product) never heard a rig with DSP worth having it in the rig, except a Ten Tec.
When I buy anything, before I buy I check to see what kind of service I get with the product, why, all things break. Out of all the radio manufactures I have delt with Ten Tec has it hands down, best service in radio, Yeah Yeah I know they don't put it in a fancy enclosure like Japan, but maybe because Ten Tec rigs don't spend half their life in a UPS truck going back for repair, OR thats where they cut the cost outside not inside. And I haven't seen to many Jap radio's I would call good looking these days.
Why do you have to buy a new radio, say in 5 years, because the big 3 won't service it anymore. I sent a Ten Tec model 540 Triton over 20 years old back to Ten Tec and they made it like new and at a very reasonable price.
Last point, I own a company that manufactures a product, the people who work WITH me, not for me and I bust our butts to make it the best it can be, the result is we make small profit and pass on quailty to the the consumer.Here 10 quailty pieces with small profit is worth more than 100 with poor quailty and high profit. Quailty sells PERIOD. The numbers speak for themselves, 3000 units @ $400,000 and not one return or warranty claim, Now if a back woods country boy like me can do this out of a old pole building and a hand full of people, I am sure the big 3 could IF they wanted to.

73
Jim

THE GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W4PA on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Interesting reading. I read every word of every post above. Everyone has an opinion; I consider us fortunate we enjoy such a good reputation.

Some excellent points made above. Ten-Tec lives and dies by the free market - if we don't offer products people want at the price and quality that is demanded, we're history.

Listening as usual. You know where to find me, either by email at sales@tentec.com, phone (800) 833-7373 or through the office line at (865) 453-7172 ext. 103.

73
Scott Robbins W4PA
Amateur Radio Product Manager, Ten-Tec, Inc.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KA7BTV on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Could be. But mabye Japanese quality was better in decades past?? I have two Kenwood TS-430s radios, one of which is in daily use. In nearly 14 years of almost continuous use(Powered up for most of the day), it has never had any problems at all. The other '430 is used Mobile/Portable and so far has proven just as reliable over the 1.5 year period in which I have owned it. These radios are well known for their reliability. Anyway, I think that the overall quality of most consumer electronics has suffered somewhat, and Amateur Radio equipment is no exception. Whereas it used to be feasable and normal to repair rather than replace your livingroom TV set, this is no longer the case unless it is an expensive set. We live in a disposable world. I too have owned Collins, Drake, Hallicrafters, and a host of other American and Japanese branded ham rigs. I really loved my KWM-2 (Winged), and my TR-3 and later TR-4. Quality second to none. Modern ham equipment is getting to be a lose-lose situation - manufactures simply can't afford to build the level of quality which we demand for the amount of money we are willing to spend. Even the Japanese can't do it. Oh well. At least our old SSB/CW rigs still generate good SSB & CW :)

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KG4YJR on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>3000 units @ $400,000 and not one return or warranty claim<<

That's impressive Jim. I never could convince people I'VE worked for and working for currently, that even though it might take a little longer, maybe a half hour or so to do something right, they force us to do a six hour job in two hours instead, then we spend an additional ten hours fixing problems that occurred from doing the job poorly from the start that could have been avoided with just a little more effort. Kind of like spending a dollar to save a dime but they justify it by saying it's all our (the employees) fault, not theirs. It makes them feel better.

73
Dave

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K4JSR on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KA7BTV said;
"Could be. But mabye Japanese quality was better in decades past??"
Maybe you ought to look real close at the country of
manufacture on the unit itself. You'll be surprised to
find that a lot of your Japanese stuff was actually
made elsewhere. The Japanese have found, as our own
highly esteemed business people, manufacturing off-
shore is cheaper. The quality always seems to suffer
when that happens. The statistical model of quality
is that each unit produced is just like every other
unit of that product. Some Dilbert style pointy haired boss somewhere can always say that their quality is consistent, even when it is trash.
As far as American made, Ten Tec RULES!
73 Cal Neff K4JSR

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by HAMDUDE on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If you look at the rigs of yesteryear, and the modern digital rigs of today, how can anyone say we have been sold out? Sure, cosmetically the new rigs are made of cheesy plastic, and not nearly as rugged as their old counterparts, but Id much rather operate a new state of the art radio, rather then a drifty old clunker any day! The rigs of the past are wonderful for their time, tubes are still best in certain applications, but its very tough to beat the new radios when it comes to operating features and capabilities. Nostalgia rigs have their place as a part of amateur history, but if you look at their cost in those years dollar value versus new radios adjusted for inflation, you cant beat the new rigs. The older Collins stuff as great as it is, was WAY overpriced for what you got. How can any of the old tube rigs match the capabilities of a modern digital rig for the same money when you consider inflation? Many forget that todays dollar isnt worth spit, so paying up to $2000 for a radio is the result of the times we live in, not greedy radio companies. For their time, the tube rigs cost way too much for the features and capabilities you got, but that was the best technology had to offer at the time.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N8XN on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The radio manufacturers have given us exactly what we asked for. They listen to all the requests for the unnecessary bells, whistles, lights and displays. Thus the new age radio. Mass production of anything equals failures, take your car for instance. Most manufacturers of radio don't manufacture their own parts, they engineer radio, it's unfair to blame them solely for failure. Yes this is an age of " ignore them and they will go away" customer service. However this is also an age of store-bought Hams. In my area if Hams could buy a new radio, have the hole drilled -heaven forbid- antenna mounted and mic hung on the hook, they would. What we did to ourselves is what has changed radio. Remember Heathkit anyone? When was the last time anyone took the cover off of a dead out-of-warrantee radio, figured out what was wrong with it and fixed it. My first radio was a Kenwood TS-450 HF/6, cost $1400 new. My latest mobile FT-100 used $400. Sold us out? NO. Trying to keep up with that price? YES

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

ten-tec and elcraft, REALLY HAVE THE BEST COSTOMER SERVICE, PERIOD.

How says to but American has to be expensive.

Check out Ten-TECs Argonaught 5. TRUE IF DSP PROCESSING. The radio is also software defined! Something the big 3 might do.

Full featured rig $750! Sorry no 2M and 440.
The only yurn off to the radio is the fact that it is 20W SSB.

In most situations, the power difference will not make or break you in a QSO. Of course for CW it is perfect.

The fact that is is TRue IF DSP and software defined, means one could tailor the TX to your voice.
Also any speech processing is done at the RF level.
More RF compression can be used than AF DSP speech processing.

Between the voice tailoring and RF proc., It will do well against ant 100W radio.

I am sure some of the engineering is used in the Orion.

So for those that want to buy American, and have cusstomer service by interested hams, this radio might be my next!

It is great for QRP too.

I am going to test TEN-TEC this week. I have a 1978 vintage Aurronuat 509. I have been meaning to fix it for years. All modular construction. One can truly mod the heck out of the old argonauts.

The rig transmits and recieves, however the slide rule VFO readout is a B-tch to fix.

If all that is said about Ten Tec is true, they will be able to fix this radio, for a small fee.

Everybody I know that owns a TEN-TEC raves about the customer service. I heard ELKRAFT is like that too.

True for $750, i do not get UHF anf VHF built in.
I like the fact that the radio's RF and IF chain can be changed by downloading new software. I wonder what would happen if hams started to write thier own code for the radio's.

A ham could customise the IF for the QTH location!
Certain noise, ect. SDR-IF's are the way of the future!
True IF DSP does very well. I would like to have 1 eight pole collins mechanical filter in it. (2.2KHZ) However I belive in IF-DSP. Especially IF DSP that is upgradable

I do not know why this rig has not grabbed some attention. I guess many are turned of by not having 100W out.

It is the same vintage as the ORION. Many times excellent features will be slipped into the cheaper radio's. Why design the same circuitry twice!

It should be nice addition to my shack. Right next to my TR-7.

If anybody owns this radio, please let us know what you think.

TNX DE MIKE

So with companies like TEN-TEC and ELKRAFT, we were not sold out.

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by KD7KGX on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

EXPAT sez:

This WalMart-ization of America is a serious problem and very insidious. After all, no one wants to pay more than necessary, but the US economy (for now I´ll stay away from the political situation) is sinking and slave-labor products have a lot to do with it....
...but the point is that life in the US has become too harsh and inhuman(e). Did you guys know that in SOME countries it is NORMAL to get four weeks vacation right away? That health insurance is MANDATED by law in Europe? Look, it is no paradise here, either, but workers, middle managers, EVERYONE except the owners in the US is getting shafted while big companies "outsource" even middle class jobs!

I reply:

EXPAT, who do you suppose pays for that 4 weeks of vacation right away? Who do you suppose pays for universal health insurance? WE DO! There's no such thing as a free lunch! Re 'harsh and inhuman(e)', unlike 'civilized' Europe, we didn't let 10,000 elderly people die from neglect last summer. The Europeans talk a good game, but they don't walk the walk. How many synagogues have been vandalized in France? Why is the level of crime in London higher than anywhere in the US? Why do people in England die waiting for (rationed) medical care? Why did the Balkans suffer from 'ethnic cleansing' while western European countries had to be shamed before they would intervene? Europe is a corrupt cesspool with a pretty facade... and when their social services collapse in a decade or two because no one is paying in to the system, it's going to get pre-WWI ugly.

The reason we are losing manufacturing jobs to Third World countries is simple: the cost of labor is MUCH lower overseas. For every dollar of payroll an employee earns, the employer must pay an additional 20% or more for taxes and benefits. That means a $20k per year employee with health benefits costs the employee over $25k to employ. This is also why high-tech jobs are moving offshore along with manufacturing jobs. A Russian or Indian programmer may not be as creative and/or productive as a US programmer (and then again, he may), but he only costs $10k per year versus $50k plus $10k extra for taxes and benefits. The US company doesn't have to provide paid vacation, sick leave, unemployment, or maternity/paternity leave for the foreign employee (and if they do, it's still far cheaper than to do it here). If the US company needs to cut payroll expenses, it's a lot easier to lay off foreign workers than US workers, and there is no unemployment expense either.

This is why manufacturing has left, and high tech will be joining them (after all, software development is really another form of manufacturing). This is why more and more we are seeing the elimination of smaller retail outlets with a higher level of service and the growth of 'big box' superstores with lots of inventory, low-paid (and low-skilled) employees, and no service. Everyone complains about service, but no one is willing to pay for it... and good employees cost far more in direct dollars than their gross pay would indicate.

Our problems are caused by the unintended consequences of well-being (or selfish) but stupid politicians who have changed the American business legal climate, not realizing that companies do have a choice... they don't have to employ people here because America doesn't have a monopoly on skilled labor or a good work ethic. Mandating universal health care, a shorter work week, and other utopian programs will seem like a good idea... until the country goes bankrupt trying to pay for these programs.

Hams are cheap... but Americans in general are cheap. We bitch and moan about how there are no more US-manufactured ham radio companies, but we are not willing to pay what it would cost for a ham radio company to be able to survive. Elecraft figured it out... that's why they make the purchaser provide the labor. I'd love to see Ten-Tec 'kit' the Omni VI+ and offer it for $1000... I'd bet they'd sell thousands.

In short, inexpensive skilled foreign labor, short-sighted US labor laws, high-tech manufacturing methods, cheap bulk transport, and instant communications have changed the global economic climate as drastically as the start of the Industrial Revolution, and in ways we can't even predict at this point.

A word to the wise: Unless your high-paying job requires both skill and personal, face-to-face interaction with your customer (or some other aspect which means it can't be done overseas by a well-skilled person), don't plan on being employed until retirement. That's why the service industry is growing... kind of hard to have your oil changed by someone in Mexico or India... and why higher-paying jobs that can be done in isolation are moving offshore. We Americans need to remember the lesson of the dinosaurs: adapt or perish.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AC5XP on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Your'e kidding, right? Have you ever checked the price of commerical radio equipment, especially for HF? Willing to fork-over that kind of dough?

I'm utterly surprised there are still manufacturers that go through the effort to actually designing and manufacturing ham radios. There is a reason why companies like Collins do not sell ham radios any more.

My experience with any ham radio is quite positive, a lot is offered for what one pays for it. And in the few instances that things went wrong I have always repaired myself.

It is all a matter of expectations. Do not expect to get a Mercedes-Benz for the price of a Yugo.

Loek d'Hont AC5XP

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB6FLY on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yes! I am amazed at the poor quality and design of the VHF and UHF mobile and portable radios that are being marketed to Amateur Radio operators today.

I maintain a fleet of Motorola and Kenwood radios for a major aerospace company, and I know what features make a radio useful and reliable. Unfortunately, the manufacturers that cater to the Ham market have decided that Hams don't need any of those features!

For example, none of the Ham radios I have tested have an adjustment for the CTCSS tone deviation. The CTCSS deviation is a fixed fraction of the voice deviation, and if it is two or three times what it should be, that's too bad. None of the Ham radios I have tested include a high-pass filter in the audio chain to block the CTCSS tone from coming through the speaker; if the buzz bothers you, that's too bad. None of the Ham radios I have tested have a stable, temperature-compensated reference oscillator to keep the radio exactly on frequency; if the carrier frequency drifts out of band, that's too bad. None of the Ham radios I have tested appear to have been set for proper deviation during manufacture; if the deviation is double or half what it should be, that's too bad. None of the Ham radios I have tested either generate or respond to Reverse Burst Squelch Tail Elimination; if squelch crashes annoy you, that's too bad. I could go on and on.

I like some Ham gear because the channels can be changed or re-programmed from the front panel. But for quality and design excellence, Motorola is #1 and Kenwood (Commercial) is #1.1.

RE: RANTING AND RAVING

by NJ0E on February 10, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KD7KGX said:
>>
hams are cheap... but Americans in general are cheap. We bitch and moan about how there are no more US-manufactured ham radio companies, but we are not willing to pay what it would cost for a ham radio company to be able to survive. Elecraft figured it out... that's why they make the purchaser provide the labor. I'd love to see Ten-Tec 'kit' the Omni VI+ and offer it for $1000... I'd bet they'd sell thousands.

<<

i don't agree that it's cheaper to provide a kit than
a finished product. kit's have alot of extra
packaging for all the individual components. and in
elecraft's case, they're all through-hole components,
rather than surface mount components. the surface
mount components are much, much cheaper, but are
difficult for the average kit builder to work with.

also, with a regular finished radio, you just have to
provide a user manual, but not an assembly manual.
an assembly manual is much thicker and more detailed
than a user manual. then there is the customer
support to help the kit builder if he/she runs into
problems.

i think the elecraft folks looked at the finished
hf transceiver market and saw a crowded, brutally
competitive market. they looked at the kit market
(which they had evolved from, via the 'norcal 40'
and 'sierra'), and saw a vacuum left open by the
demise of heathkit. i think they made a wise choice.
there will always be an element in amateur radio
that derives more satisfaction from assembling
their own apparatus (and learning something in
the process) than having the most technically
advanced product available in the market.

73,
scott nj0e

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N9GXW on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had an ICOM radio I did not really care for, but it was a cheep HF rig and I got what I paid for. It was cheep and it was junk. I currently use a Kenwood TS-570S and knock on wood” have had no problem at all with it. In fact am listening to the BBC on it right now. I also have a Kenwood V7A dual band rig and the only problem I have had with it was self induced, and when I called Kenwood Customer Service the guy could not have been nicer or more helpful. I like Kenwood and have had good luck with them. I recommend them all the time. I am saving my pennies now to try and get enough to buy the new TS-480 SAT. May not get there raising a family but am going to try.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KD7KGX on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB6FLY sez:

Yes! I am amazed at the poor quality and design of the VHF and UHF mobile and portable radios that are being marketed to Amateur Radio operators today.

I maintain a fleet of Motorola and Kenwood radios for a major aerospace company, and I know what features make a radio useful and reliable... (and lists several features that most ham rigs don't have).

I like some Ham gear because the channels can be changed or re-programmed from the front panel. But for quality and design excellence, Motorola is #1 and Kenwood (Commercial) is #1.

I reply:

I think you're looking at two different types of end-users. In the utility radio category, the commercial end-user wants something that can be dropped, frozen, sprayed with water, left in a vehicle for months without maintenance, etc., and then turned on and it works. He doesn't need to choose from more than a couple of different frequencies, won't change the squelch, output power, mode, band, etc. In short, he needs an extremely rugged APPLIANCE.

The ham wants something that is very frequency-agile, mode agile, small, light, fairly inexpensive, physically attractive, and feature-laden. For VHF voice comms, he doesn't care about rock-solid frequency stability as long as the radio maintains good voice quality on memory settings (such as programmed-in repeater freqs). Most hams don't subject their gear to extensive temperature swings. In fact, most hams use their radios very infrequently as compared to commercial users (especially government users like LE agencies).

In short, the features that WB6FLY listed are very useful for technicians who want to ensure their radio is operating at peak efficiency and who have the test equipment and skills to verify that. Most of the rest of us never hook up our VHF/UHF 'appliance' radios to test gear... and this stuff works well enough out of the box so that we have no reason to. I would add that, based upon my limited experience as compared to a professional radio tech, the ham-grade VHF/UHF radios I've purchased (Alinco and Icom) could be adjusted for deviation and frequency aligned... with the right test gear.

There is nothing preventing hams from purchasing more expensive commercial-grade radios... but by and large we don't do it because the benefits aren't worth the cost. It stands to reason, then, that the ham manufacturers, by and large, ARE providing products with quality sufficient to the needs and expectations of their customers.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KD6TQE on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB6FLY:
I have a SyntorX9000 lowband in the mobile.Rock solid, no intermod,100 watts out on 6 and 10 meters. I can key it up as long as I want, it will not quit.
But put it into perspective-a new syntor X9000 was 3-4000 bucks new in its day.What ham could (or would) buy such a rig for that price.The current ham rigs are an excellent compromise in cost verses features/performance. Comparing the two really isnt fair.
Regards,Glenn Hatz AE6PR

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KA4KOE on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Remember, JJH: sooner or later, OM, I am gonna let your fellow Co-Op dwellers on Greenwich Street know what you're doing up there and then you are dead meat! Still playing around with guns too? In NYC?"

You don't know who you're messing with. My advice to you is to leave this particular New Yorker alone. Also, IV, your sending threatening qsls in the mail to my friend Mike was really, really stupid.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KF3EG on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Fight nice guy's, damn, it sounds like the Artty Wind Jammer and Spikeo the psycho days burning up the air waves to Jersey. 23rd street pier would be a good place to end your frustrations with each other, like the old days.

I would like to add to my earlier post:
I do not just buy Ten Tec because it is made in America I buy their equipment because it is good.
For someone to say Ten Tec uses the Patriot American market to their advantage is not a fair statement. I also do not understand the statement that Ten Tec gives one less for more money, look at their radio's, the Jupiter, what is there to buy? other than standard power supply and a desk mick, that you have to buy for any radio. Same with the Orion.
I am not beating the drum for Ten Tec but fact is fact, I own Kenwood radio's also.
What good is any radio if the service is crap?
Ten Tec has the best service I have delt with.
Buy American ! damn right I do go to QRZ and punch in my call and read my Bio and you will see part of why I buy American the other part is I am a Proud American !And Fought for that right HOW ABOUT YOU
73
Jim
KF3EG
The Gun Is Always Loaded

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by D9AL on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<<{Remember, JJH: sooner or later, OM, I am gonna let your fellow Co-Op dwellers on Greenwich Street know what you're doing up there and then you are dead meat!>>>>>>

What is up with this KE2IV. All he does is bash people. I thought JJH gave good advice on IF DSP that is software programmable, and can be had for $750!

I have not seen a rig with IF DSP for under $1800!

Also Ke2IV, you should know who you are deaing with when you make vague threats. You never know what resourses they have. They may have people on "both sides of the law"

It is indeed you that commited illegal acts!
If you do go over to his QTH and talk to Neighbors, that is also slander as well. It also seems JJH has a good command of the NYC penal code. You should ask your self that before you go over to his QTH.

You also can be mistaken for a stalker by the way you talk. I can tell from waht I have heard of JJH is that he is tough, knows many people in NYC. He also has family that are cops.

I think JJH is setting you up like a bowling pin.
He is laughing at your acts of stupidity. I think once JJH has enough on you, he will be a force you wished you never hsd messed with.

Practice what you preach. Do you ever have anything construcive to say. Is trolling you main mode. Are you in a habit of sending theats through the mail!

Many New Yorker lost loved ones in WTC. Let me guess....you think the CIA and ISREAL did it! right?

I never see you in the ELMER section. Your a member of N.C.I. Did you really earn your EXTRA ticket?
You do not seem to be that bright!

All JJH did was to give some pointers. I have seen JJH answer many peoples questions on EHAM.

All you do is complain

Also if what JJH said is true, a threating letter is enough proof for JJH to make you have much expaining to do to the Police. The threats on EHAM just add fuel to the fire.

I am sure what ever trouble you think you can srart for JJH, JJH while respond with something you really did not want to be bothered with.

I agree JJH comes may come accross as a know it all to some. His humor can be very dark.

However KE2IV, you have to learn not to let people like JJH get to you. My advice might be too late for you. It seems JJH has the law on his side. You broke the law. JJH seems to be a bit of a stratogist.

Would you care to share with EHAM, why you sent JJH a threatening letter. What on earth did you say! Could have JJH taken it the wrong way. However you publicly
stating that you would cause trouble for JJH in a public forum is not the way to go.

In the old country, nobody threatened to hurt somebody. The person just disappeared!

I guess you have a good reason to have your FCC ticket.
at a P.O. address!

SANS 73 KE2IV you need help!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC7ZWG on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Jeeeez!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sorry O.M.'s that I strayed. This one particular ham has been a reel troll.

Getting back to the subject. TenTEC and ELKRAFT.
IMO, the reasoon why you get such excellent service from these two corps is the fact they are owned and run by hams.

I just called both companies. I find it a toss up for the TEN-TEC Argo-5 IF DSP 20 watter or the ELKRAFT
K2.

I have yet to meet an uphappy ELKRAFT builder/ user.
I guess when you get the box of parts, it is scary.
However, I have not heard from anybody who said....I cannot get the thing to work period.

Ten-Tec spent much time on the phone with me about the new ARGO-5. For $800 built and true IF DSP, it seems to be more appealing to me now.

I would say TEN-TEC and ELKRAFT listen to their customers. They are also very open about design flaws and will send the software and/ or parts to fix the small problem.

Perhaps what makes TEN TEC and ELKRAFT radio's better are the fact they are HF only. They both know the designs well on the phone.

Those two comapnies have not let us down.
The other 3 is a mixed bag. Depends on the radio, and which rep you talked to that day. However their turn around are all very slow.

Also with the big 3, lots of a defective radio can roll off the assembly line. The usual response from the big 3 is total denial there is a problem!
I have heard of many $2000 radio's collecting frequent flier miles. It seems the big 3 have a trent towards not fixing the radio right the first time.

So yes the big 3 have left use down.

The American two know they do not sell the volume. Word of mouth for new and repeat sales are their bread and butter. The 2 also stick with whsat they know best HF. They do not cram 2M and 440 in thier.

I have also noticed with TEn-TECS, there is always space inside the cabinat to put in your own mods.

I can see ELKRAfT doing amatuer radio a big favor, by having their radio's in kit form.
A real sense of accomplishment when completed. Also the more advanced kit builders might think of mods while building. I know the K1-K2, mods from hams are published by the company. This is a very good idea.

And yes the fact that these companies keep AMERICANS employed is important to me.

73 DE WA2JJH

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N5PVL on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

Actually, it is the other way around... We sold out on the radio manufacturers! - And we are still doing so, every day!

According to the EchoLink web-site, over 100,000 hams are registered to use EchoLink, an internet chat that hams have been encouraged to use as a substitute for radio.

Talk to any number of EchoLink users at all, and you will hear:

"I sure am glad that I won't have to save up for that HF rig, or study to upgrade my liscense in order to "work the world" with "ham radio"!

It's not just the HF rigs that are not being bought by hundreds of hams who otherwise would have. I hear from many hams who express satisfaction that EchoLink eliminates the need for a VHF or UHF radio as well.

If you can "work the world" without having to buy any expensive RADIOs at all, then that is precisely what many "hams" will do.

That is why we shoot ourselves in the foot to even have such an option. We are shooting the radio manufacturers too of course, but not in the foot.

Recently I talked to an elderly ham who had quit using his dual-band radio to access the local "EchoLink" repeater "because the computer does a better job than the radio." The ham said this despite the fact that he has always been full-quieting into the repeater.

When you have a destructive new trend that has over 100,000 new hams walking away from using radio, of course the manufacturers are going to take a major hit. - And you know what? The ham gear manufacturers were not swimming in money to start with. The profit margin on Ham gear is not that big.

AND it is not just radios that do not get bought or sold because of EchoLink... There are dozens of ham accessories such as keyers, keys, microphones, station clocks, antenna tuners, SWR bridges etc. etc.. that would have been purchased - if it hadn't been for EchoLink.

So when you notice prices going up, while quality goes down, be sure to thank your fellow "hams" who are so excited to have a an alternative to buying and operating ham radio equipment, and who do so in droves.

Save a special thanks for the author of EchoLink, as he has been made aware of this problem and simply does not care.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N4OI on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I am a relatively new ham, but apparently very fortunate that my equipment has been trouble-free so far. My main rig is a Yaesu FT-920 which has been fantastic. Both audio and CW consistently bring unsolicited great reports. I built an Elecraft K1 that has been absolutely rock-solid since I first applied power. Same for my RockMite, which I had a call back to my CQ on the first day, and my DSWII-20 that is flawless. Even the OHR QRP wattmeter I built has been bug-free. No problem with the Bencher paddle, Palm mini-paddle, the FP-1030A power supply or the Rigblaster Nomic PC interface. Go figure? That said, I am planning to help support Elecraft and Small Wonder Labs (Dave Benson is fantastic!)by buying as much as I can from them. I will also probably buy something expensive from TenTec one day, if possible. Anyway, from my perspective we have some great equipment options to choose from - and the best (Elecraft, Small Wonder Labs, TecTec) are from the USA! 73 es God Bless de Ken - N4OI

DIAMOND MANUFACTURE SOLD US OUT!!!

by VE3XYD on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Its true that many of us want a cheap product that will work right.

Some of us don't mind paying extra few bux to get better quality product with high performance...

My friend works for high tech RF company. He tested about 3 diffrent models of antennas sold by Diamond. All 3 models did not meet the specs according to the manuals! None of them even come close with the dB and many other aspects...

THe truth is!
Even if we pay more money for high quality stuff, we still get ripped off my manufactures!

MANY MANUFACTURES SOLD US OUT!!!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KI6LO on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The radio manufacturers are not any different than any other type of technically oriented product. With the newer breed of radios with so many advanced technical features and circuits, the level of testing required to ensure 100% accuracy of the design and resultant product would drive the cost of the already ridiculously high radio to the point that the normal work a day Joe could not afford to buy them. There is a break even point at where the systems are tested to ensure that they work as advertised with reasonable certainty and success. Beyond this, problems are addressed as they are discovered. Since amateur radios are not described as a life critical device (ie not a medical device where if they failed, a life could be lost), the amount of testing is determined by the cost vs the return on investment (ie profit). I know some will disagee with the life critical statement, but it is true. Off the shelf amateur radio equipment is not designed to be an integral part of such a critical system. This is not to say that it might not be used in a support role (ie ARES/RACES/etc.) but such systems aren't designed around ham radios.

As far as selling us out? I say no with reservations. I have no problem with the manufacturers making a profit since that keeps them solvent and in business. I understand that there are limitations to developing systems given time schedule and budget constraints as I design and manage development of advanced systems for a living.

I do have a problem with a customer oriented business (believe or not radio manufacturers are customer oriented - or should be) not doing as much as possible to provide a sound reasonable customer service dept. It would be in their best interest to do so up front. I would even recommend that they develop a product line based service interface to the customer to address high visibility problems as they are found in day to day consumer service before customers start exchanging information on bad service. It is much easier to deal with a unhappy customer than a pissed off one.

As a final thought, I would love nothing better than to have Heathkit or something similar available nowadays. I know that there are a couple of companies that supply kits but they too are expensive for what you get. The ability to able to build your own equipment is very limited today, given the limited availibilty of kit companies and small quantity components to individual experimenters. Not only did building your own save money but it was a true learning experience that statyed with you. You learned the system and could maintain it for most problems with a simple hamshack equipment and tools. Todays technology requires a sophisticated lab to test and repair SMT and micro circuits.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W4MGY on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Considerig the culture of ham radio itself, and the fact that most hams today are plug in and play appliance operators; to a large extint we are getting what we willing to pay for. US Hams in general are a cheap bunch to deal with. Most expect to get $3000 performence in a $1200 radio. Gimme a friggin' break! Compared to other hobbies like bass fishing, model railroading, and flying; ham radio is a pretty cheap deal. Problem is we have too many who are afraid to demand and willing to spend money to get better quality. Maybe that's a hold over from the CB radio heritage some hams have in their past.

Another factor is that hams are sometimes too critical about the performance of a pile of hobby radio equipment whose technology and overall design was out-dated 40 years ago. Ham radio as a hobby is probably a bit out-dated itself. Look at what the kids are playin' with today..computers! Yeh, I know; I'm banging this out one one myself. After reading this, no doubt, you probably would consider me outdated elitist. So, no big deal, been called worse. The fun stuff in my shack is American-made old boat anchor radios like Collins, Drake, and Hammarlund. I am into professional grade stuff, never cared for the 'amateur' Jap ricebox stuff being sold today. Maybe I will throw in a bit of snob appeal for extra measure. If I had my druthers about it and the room, there would be a couple of old 1 or 5 KW AM BC rigs set up to use on HF. BTW, I have absolutely no compunction whatsoever about running all high power all the time.

Why the old gear? The old stuff can be maintained and repaired with my weak eyes. Old radios really had real 'gonads'... they are big and heavy, have a solid feel to them and given reasonable care will still be be here up and running when the new imported stuff is laying in the landfill. Any ham who fondly remembers the great old gear gets a bit misty eyed when he sees a nice Collins A-Line, or a nice Halicrafters setup from the late 50's. Do you think we are really going to feel that way about an FT-1000 MP Field Mark V? Naw, I doubt it seriously. The kids like the old retro look too. Besides, I hate the cheezy feel of the new stuff with plastic cabinets and rubbery knobs being passed off as CB...er, ham gear.

The idea of spending money on imported radio stuff to make a forign company richer while American manufacturing jobs fade away seems like an act treason. Beleive it or not folks, a great deal of the radio equipment used by our military cannot even be made in the USA anymore. The down side of all of this is we have no choice if we want new products. My wife and I own a Jap truck and a minivan..only because it is made in the US. When the 'Big 3' ham manufacturers decide to build factories in the US and employ Americans who will be buying their products, I might give it a passing thought.

DSP, which is being touted as a great inovation is a necessity because modern RF synthesized ham radio gear has poor shielding, and full of RF noise. QST and the big three will not tell you about the poor RF designs we have to live with just so we can have puch button, DC to Daylight radios at $800. Sorry guys, the old Collins or Drake gear can hear just as well. Forget what a pile of lab gear says...it's what the radio can do in the real world that really counts.

Yes, I have a couple of Ten Tec HF rigs, an OmnI V - which does a good job, and would probably buy another; and a Jupiter which in all honesty was a real disappointment. My wife and I are both hams, we have several of those imported 2 meter VHF toys from the big 3 like HT's and mobile rigs. When they crap out, they will be replaced with pro Motorola gear. To answer the title question honestly....we in the ham community sold out our American manufacturers in preference to imported gear years ago. So there you have it...my 2 cents woth. If you think I wrote this with tougne in cheerk...think again.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WF7A on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

With all due respect to your earlier post, 'JJH, Japanese motorcycles are refered to as rice _burners_, not rice _boxes_...and nearly all motorcyclists call them that, not just Harley owners. I prefer riding Beemers (BMW motorcycles), myself...though I had a Kawasaki KH-400 3-cylinder/2-stroke bike that had a speedometer with increments measured in Mach values. :) Loved that bike...

I'm not sure if refering to Japanese rigs as "rice boxes" is racist or not--all I can say is, it's a good thing the Shiites don't built radios else I _know_ what we'd be calling those things... ;)

But back on the subject of the selling out of hams...

I used to be a TSR (Technical Support Rep) and Technical Writer for AEA back in the early 1990s. (You can blame me for some of the inaccurate info in some of their manuals--sorry about that!) Although the company manufactured excellent products we had a lower management problem which, IMHO, made the company very unpopular in ham radio circles and probably caused its demise: the manager gave us the directive that unless a customer REALLY bitched and moaned about a product, we didn't take it back; all sales were final. Of course, manufacturing defects were taken care of promptly and courteously, but I think the company's reputation suffered greatly because of that one person's lack of respect for the customer. I think he regarded customers as nuisances instead of people who can provide valuable feedback in improving a product.

This is what I meant earlier about how a personnel change can make or break a company or product. (I do want to point out very strongly, though, I have the greatest respect for Mike Lamb--who owned(all of?)AEA and is/was a major player/owner of Timewave: he's very much customer oriented and knows how to treat them right!)

Sure, some products have design flaws that need correcting but it isn't an instaneous process: it takes time to research the problem, produce repair protocols, order/shift around parts, train repair people, change documentation, notify dealers and customers, and so on. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world so we, as customers, sometimes need to patient while manufacturers/software writers get their act together. If they decide that it isn't worth their while to effect changes and make you happy with your purchase, then they're only going to go bye-bye.

Adieu,
Rich

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2MMI on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Mike, do you have any experience with the TR-7 hands on? A friend is willing to lend me one (that's been in the basement for 20 years) but it needs some fixing. We're one island east of you & would be glad to bring it over WITH lunch & the manual this weekend if you think you can raise the dead. TR-7, that is.<G>

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AB7JK on February 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Most ham radio gear today is over designed non user friendly junk that's mostly designed to aggravate the user into buying more and more equipment looking for the right one. Go QRT and do away with the scumbags.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KE4FVU on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I've had an Alinco DR-130T Since I was licensed in 1993.I've never had a problem with it.The numbers are worn on the keypad thats it.I bought an Alinco DJ-V5 last year I love it.I have a Yaesu FT50R.It has had a short in the on/off button for a while.I bought it at a Hamfest so I was not the original owner.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KA7RRA on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What do you mean hams are cheap?????????? I own a kenwood TS-2000 that I paid 1800.00 a Kenwood TMD-700 that I paid 470.00 a ICOM 706 that I paid 870.00 A alinco DR-235T that i paid 160.00 and two hand helds total 500.00
grand total about 3600.00 of ham radio gear that I own
and you are calling me cheap?
dont forget the antennas that I had to buy so I could transmint about 500.00 so that is close to 4100.00 in ham radio gear sorry bud Iam not cheap
DAve

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by ON4SSC on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The Yaesu FT-817 came with a failed IF filter, but I love this little rig so much I'm ready to get it repaired some more times. If I had something to ask to Yaesu, it would be (at least) to fix the famous "failed finals" problem of the 817. Lots and lots of hams have experienced this problem but Yaesu seems to do nothing about it.

I also have a Kenwood TS-140 and this seems to be a very well built rig. Sure, much better and without almost all those difficult-to-repair smd components you find in recent rigs.

Like some other ham said, there are a lot, lot more better things than bad things in ham gear.

73 de Stephane ON4SSC

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KA1LDD on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No one sold anyone out. It is a simple matter of supply and demand. They're not building stereos that everyone in the country buys, it is a select market. There are what like 250,000 hams in the U.S. How many buy new rigs every year? Only the few lucky guys with the big bucks, and they don't mind spending three grand on a radio.
As for quality, look at other items in your home. Compare the construction of your TV or stereo to your transceiver. Its not even close. Other than the conductors themselves those items don't even have any metal in them.
You pretty much get what you pay for only for ham radio it is on a sliding scale because the quantity is so much lower than the rest of the electronic world.
I would say buy more rigs to lower the prices overall, but that isn't really practical. The more people we get into ham radio, the lower the prices will become for all equipment. Supply and demand doesn't really work in this market because we will never out demand the supply (except for the Orion I know).

EchoLink bad for ham radio?

by KD7KGX on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Blaming the 'demise' of ham radio on EchoLink is something that cannot be supported by the facts.

There are more hams now than ever before. The manufacturers don't have to worry about EchoLink and computers replacing ham radio. Hams are like everyone else... their interests wax and wane and go in different directions. EchoLink may be on the front burner for a few months, but eventually interest will wane and the user will go back/on to other methods and modes.

If we are worried about the decline of ham radio, we need to get on the air and operate more. If a new ham cannot make contacts then he will soon tire of calling CQ, and move onto something else. Conversely, if contacts are as easy as getting on an Internet chat room, then most hams will tire of that as well and seek something more challenging.

Re all the slurring of the Japanese manufacturers... if they weren't offering something that was perceived to be better than the status quo, then Icom, Yaesu, Alinco, and Kenwood would never have captured the ham radio market as they have done. Sure... old Collins gear looks neat, but there is no doubt that any new mid-priced rig is a better piece of gear for making QSOs... more frequency-stable, easier to operate, more QRM-fighting features. Nostalgia is fine, but today's Corvette will blow the pants off of the earlier versions, too.

The market is always right. Companies that are successful are, by definition, doing SOMETHING right. Hams wouldn't be buying radios from the Big 3 if their needs and expectations weren't being met... and Collins, et al, would still be players in the ham radio business if their products were competitive (a mix of price and features).

RE: In the Beginning.....

by W0FM on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

In the beginning.....there were no commercial manufacturers of amateur radio equipment. Hams homebrewed everything from parts they could scrounge from other devices.

Then....Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, National, Drake, Collins et al got us in the habit of buying ready-made "off the shelf" equipment with nice features and decent factory support.

Then....those guys went away because they could not make a profit at their chosen trade by offering good equipment with good support.

Next.....the YaeIcoWoods of the world stepped in to fill the void.

Now....hams think their prices are too high and their support is insufficient.

The result.....(hopefully) we hams may be forced to learn how to build our own equipment again by default.

What goes around, comes around.

73 and Happy Building!

Terry, WØFM

RE: In the Beginning.....

by VE3WGO on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sad truth is that parts are getting expensive in small quanitites, because the manufacturers are buying them in SMT reels of 1000+ or more at a time. Business is squeezing out the low volume purchaser more and more. So our homebrewing capabilities are gradually disappearing.

And what will we do when the "Big 3" in JA-land decide that they can't stay in the Ham Radio business any more? Where do you think we will get an HT or mobile VHF/UHF or satellite rig? Or a competitive compact HF rig that keeps Tentec or Elecraft honest?

I have a slightly aging Tentec HF and transverter, aging Kenwood 2m allmode, and new Yaesu HF/VHF. I don't find it appropriate to discuss them in any way except for what they do for me, because I'm technically inclined, not racist or politically inclined. They all work well, but I can't help but notice that the newer ones are smaller, lighter, and more adaptable to our increasingly polluted airwaves.

One final thought: I work in the radio manufacturing business and we know that SDR's (Software Defined/Downloadable Radios) are an excellent strategy for radio manufacturers. Although the advertised reason for selling SDRs is that it allows the end user (ie, you) to benefit from evolution of features and other things like new frequency bands (60 M), the truth is that it's an easier way to get the hardware out to the marketplace before the software is ready. Why else would a manufacturer advertise that you can download the latest software from their website? Think....why in the world should you need to download new software? Microsoft has us all trained to think that it's ok to ship junk, because it can be patched later.

So, yes, the SDR manufacturers are selling us out, in my opinion.

It reminds me of the conversion to front-wheel drive cars in the early 1980s -- the manufacturers trained us to believe that it is better for our safety (it might be), but the truth is that it is MUCH cheaper to manufacture than rear-wheel drive, because it saved 1 out of 2 major production steps. That's why they pushed it so hard. Heard about it continuously as I grew up in an auto-worker family in southern Ontario.

RE: In the Beginning.....

by K2VI on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS,I HAVE A KENWOOD TS-870S ICOM 756 PRO ICOM 718 AND A KENWOOD TS570 D/G. ALL HIGH QUALITY SOLIDLY BUILT RADIO'S.I KNOW THEESE COMPANIES SCREW UP FROM TIME TO TIME BUT GIVE EM A BREAK.IF YOUR NOT HAPPY WITH JAPANEESE RADIO'S MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE AN EMPTY SHOE BOX RADIO LIKE THE TEN-TEC BRAND.YUCK!

RE: In the Beginning.....

by WF7A on February 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K2VI: just a gentle reminder that when you type in all caps in e-mails and e-messages, it means you're yelling; this isn't RTTY, y'know. :D

'WGO, I'd like to disagree. I think software releases are a good thing for SDR devices: it makes those devices much more flexible and attractive to customer needs and wants, both in the present and the future; is economical because you don't have to replace "x" generations of hardware-driven boxes over time when one SDR box will do over the longhaul, and it allows for greater creativity for the designers/engineers to improve upon existing features and add new ones as technologies and people's wants change. Take for example a poster earlier in the thread who was able to jump on 60M after upgrading the firmware in his Ten-Tec. How many of us were able to jump on 60M with our "standard" hardware-driven rigs? True, there may not be a great demand for most hams to jump on 60, but I'm sure there's at least a handful of hams out there who wished they had waited jussssssst a little bit longer before buying a new rig so that it would come from the factory 60M enabled.

I received a friendly e-mail today from a poster on here who said "Rich! Before you buy that Orion, check out Icom's IC-7800!" So, I wandered over to Icom's website and took a gander at the pre-release info. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't impressed by it--it looks to be a killer radio. (Out of idle curiosity I wonder if the four 32-bit DSP processors in it really make a night-and-day difference from having just one). However, it's still a hardware-driven device: purchasers will be paying BIG bucks for a rig that looks cool and performs well, but can't be upgraded. Maybe the IC-8000 will be an SDR rig... who knows.

On a different tact, I don't know why some hams take issue with a rig that isn't crammed to the top of electronics--that it's inferior if it has unused space in it. No guts, no glory, eh? :) Maybe a manufacturer wants the box big enough so it's ergonomic? I'd rather have a radio I can easily use than to have one so small that I have to make an effort to avoid touching a button or switch.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KC2MMI, you asked about the TR-7. Yes I have worked on them. If you have one sitting around for a while, it still might be working. You do not have to use Drakes huge supply.

Just use any 30 AMP supply. You have to hook up 2 plus and minus cables to the power connector.

See if yours still works. I will be more than glad to assist you in the ELMER section with it, if there are problems. Check all the voltages coming out of thr regulaor board.

So for sure get it out of the basement and power it up.
You can order a service manual for about $30 on ebay

Let me know how you do.

73 DE MIKE

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB7SAJ on February 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hi
I used to repair those 2100s for AES
in Milw. Watch the transmit recv. switching
diode, it likes to burn holes in the pc board.
Keep your transmit time as short as possible.

Yes we've been sold out, the skills we gained
from our hobby used to get us a good job, no more
Our radios are throw away junk.
Globalism is bunk!

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB7SAJ on February 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Welcome to the club
Not only are you right, its much worse
than you think. On low end equipment
Icom makes good money which is what
manufacuring is all about. Too bad Heathkit
couldn't keep up. The mechanical design on
almost all the jap stuff is laughable.
I repaired Icom's for AES in Milw. for 7 yrs
I couldn't stand the junk any more, I quit!
73

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC2MMI on February 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Thanks, Mike, checking the voltages out of the regulator would be a good place to start. My friend still has the inch thick service manual (although I turn the pages delicately<G>) so maybe we'll get to that this weekend.

The radio needs two each +&- power leads? Huh, curious. It would be nice to find out this is "just" a supply power problem but I think it is never that simple.<G>

Rather than cluttering the list...can we take this to email in coming days? You can reach me as KC2MMi at verizon.net

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KC2MMI, be more than happy to help you out getting your TR-7 on the air. I will contact you at your email.
If I was not so busy with work and school, I would be glad to help out in person.

The first Plus is for most of the radio. The second is for the PA.

If you wanted to do a quick check on most of the radio. Hook up the low amp plus, and one negaitive wire of a good 12V PS to your rig.

If you get RCVR audio and the digital display works, you are in good shape.

Do not even bother with the high amperage VCC, until you see ths the rig will do that much.

The regulator board in the radio often goes. If your
DR-7 board is bad, that is bad news.

The low amp 12volt connection will tell you much.
The DRAKE TR-7 is a great rig, even by todays standards. The WARC bands are very easy to do.

I am sorry to those that will take offense, however once you see the inside of a DRAKE TR-7, you will SEE MY strong position on buying AMERICAN!

73 DE MIKE

What Am I Doing Wrong?

by N5LXI on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had a variety of radios over the years. Mostly Icom HF (although two Yaesu), mostly Kenwood VHF and/or UHF transceivers (one Icom) and HT's from Icom, Yaesu and Alinco.

All have workekd perfectly. All were purchased new, and at a good price. A 2-meter mobile rig from 20 years ago was about $450, a similar (but better) current rig, about $150. You can buy a nice starter HF rig today that will work great and last for years for $600 or so.

The only current rig I've not liked is a Argo-V, which they took back. The user interface could be better on many modern radios, but it's a problem of many features and small space.

But overall, modern radios are very good and the price very fair.

joel / N5LXI

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N5LXI, Your not doing anything wrong. What ever rig you like and works for you, is the rig for you.

Diffrence is that TEN-TEC took your radio back. There was nothing really wrong with the rig, it was not for you. They did give you your money back period.
Ten Tec will let you try their radio's for 30 days. No ifs ands ors or buts.

Try that with the big 3. You hear plenty of stories of radio's that get frequent flier milage on multiple repairs.

I can say I was only able to buy a FT-100D in confidence only after so many hams suffered with the older FT-100D's. The FT-100D still has one problem, Yeasu is in denial about. One should reduce VHF and UHF power levels in half. Use only 25W on 2m instead of the rated 50W. Use 12W instead of 25W on UHF.

I rate mt FT-100D as a medocre HF rig with decent
VHF/UHF performance. For $750 bux with the somewhat usefull but arkward DSP.....I got a lot of radio for my money.

Is it a keeper...NO! Does it work...YES!
It all depends on your needs.
For decent HF, I use my 2nd hand ts-850SAT, that I had to put in my own repairs.

I like my TR-7 as well. The construction on it looks like Mil. spec. The TR-7 has actual boards you can take out. There is plenty of room inside to do your own repairs. I would say my TR-7 is a user servicable rig.

I am sure the ICOM-718 is a great rig. I would just hope it had the same return policy as a TEN-TEC. I also know better that the ICOM 718 is not for the kind of ham that likes to repair or modify his own radio.
Does that make it bad...Of course not! I have seen thr reviews and the ICOM-718 is rated highly.

There are some hams that will swear by thier tube rigs. I owned tubed rigs. I just could never find a Collins for a decent price.

I did not group all japanese rigs as bad.
I have just noticed that I have never met a K2 owner that was not happy with his rig or the service.

I have noticed many TEN-TEC owners to speak very highly of their rigs. When they had problems, Ten-Tec took the rigs back. No hassle or hustle!

Ten-TeC has also taken the lead on SDR radio's.
They have the inexpensive ARGO-5. They have the $3000+
Orion. Both can be upgraded with software. Both wisely use IF DSP. AF DSP has much to be desired.

IMHO, I think TEN-TEC's policies make for a happier ham. They will sell less radio's than the big 3 yes.

Maybe the way we are SOLD OUT is this. The big 3 come out with a bunch of rigs with bugs in them. After a few years, the radio's are then good radio's.
Since thier IF/RF chains are all proprietary, the radio will be obsolete by the time the bugs are worked out.

Hey, that is cool too. Some hams like buying a new rig every 2-3 years. So I guess that is my answer, as to have we been sold out. We are sold out by choice.
Some choose to get sold out. Some like being sold out.
Its a free country.

The big 3 never own up to an engineering problem at first. The Argo-5 had SSB TX audio problems and Ten-tec
was not shy about admitting it!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AG4SD on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Can someone tell me why my 60's CB stuff was so much better than the offerings from the Big 3? TRAM, BROWNING, SONAR et al absolutely stomps today's convoluted menu driven imports, in ease of use, aesthetics, heft and feel. Further, customer service is an oxymoron..After three days of frustrating hours upon hours of attempts to reach Yaesu about a problem with my 817, I finally gave up..Agree, we are quality and service challenged by this bottom line oligopoly..Next time it's TEN TEC or SGC for me.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB9JXE on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

My new Yaesu FT-857 works fine. It’s small, nimble, and works well. Comparing this to older gear, which I also enjoy using, is an apples to oranges comparison.

But if this new gear needs service, it’s out of the scope of most hams to make repairs. The parts are just too small. It’s a new world of electronics, like it or not.

Just to reiterate a previous comment, Yaesu has never answered any e-mail from me. Kenwood on the other hand, answered in a day or so and interacted with me troubleshooting over e-mail during the same day. My TS-2000 has an unknown glitch with setting the PC interface baud rate. You must power cycle the rig to get the baud rate to change after an edit on the menu. Newer radios work fine. My older firmware must be the difference. I have one of the original TS-2000s. The rig is 3 years old and Kenwood support was happy to help me.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by N4JBK on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Unfortunately all I can comment on is yaesu because that is allmost all I have owned for the past few years ( the 1 icom I owned I never had to utilize customer no service). Case in point back in November I ordered some pins and plugs that go into the back of my G1000DXA rotors, I received the plastic part of the plugs but as of this date (02-14-2004) I have yet to receive the pins. I have called yaesu parts severak times and have been told " they are on the way and I don't know why it has taken so long". I sure wish I knew where to buy these little pins from another source.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KC8SKX on February 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Actually the reason for the lower quality in US ham gear is the lack of a viable market to sell to.

If you check the Ham Dealers in Europe you will find many models not offered or available to the US market due to the high cost.

The big 3 in Ham Gear know they can't get thier needed price in the US market so Higher quality items are offered to the EU. They must warrant the items in Europe for 2 years to sell them in the EU, and since they can get a fair price for the equipment, they sell the higher quality items there. It would not suprize me to find that the equipment sold in the US (most of) is actually second quality equipment.

The EU market is 1.2 million Hams. Much larger than the US market. Prices are much higher. So this is why so many US hams complain about quality. Yet they are unwilling to pay for it.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W9WHE on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KC8SKX writes:

"The big 3 in Ham Gear know they can't get thier needed price in the US market so Higher quality items are offered to the EU".

Actually, I think its quite the oppisite.
In europe, you see brands like Yupiteru and other lower quality varities. Rarely do you see higher priced, quality items like Motorola hts. Not alot of Alpha amps in europe either.

Perhaps you would identify these so-called higher priced items that only euro-types are willing to buy.

W9WHE
Proud to support the ARRL boycott.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K7VO on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Actually, you have more high quality products in the E.U. Tokyo Hy-Power pulled out of the U.S. market but are alive and well selling high quality amps in Europe, Japan, Asia, Australia, etc...

ETO Alpha is an American company. I am not at all sure that they have an export business.

Also, what is a "euro-type"? Do you mean European people? A little disrespect seems to be some people's stock in trade, doesn't it?

73,
Caity
K7VO
proud to support the W9WHE boycott and his one man crusade against the ARRL

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W6IXV on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Dear Sir:

I would agree with you on this subject. A dollars paid for the rigs, but that's about all.
But more important, Our Ham brothers, who sell their used rigs wrongly advertized with total dis-respect with no ethics what so ever. I got took for more than once, with lies with broken radios advertised as mint conditions!!
When I spoked with the ARRL headquaters, well, you guessed it.they could not even give me a number for the FBI. This is why, next year I shall be a NO MEMBER with the ARRL.George

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AK9S on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

You get what you pay for...and sometimes less. I agree that some of the newer low-end gear lack in quality. Customer service? What's that?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W0FMS on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The real problem is that all of the Japanese stuff made in the last couple of years is outsourced to China.

Just like we are doing with US goods-- making them in Mexico.

The comments that hams are cheap are correct. $3300 for an Orion that is nearly commercial quality is a bargain. A commercial radio like that goes for >$10K.

Of course, there are rumors going around that Ten-Tec is in finincial trouble as well, probably because of this. The lack of profitability of ham gear killed Kachina with their 505DSP. Can't make a $2000 radio out of $2000 of parts-- it doesn't work.

In general, I'm starting to agree that it's time to start worrying about quality of the stuff we live with rather than just quality. We are selling ourselves out, the manufacturers are just helping us do that in order to survive.

And I hate Wal-Mart. Or as I've heard it called "China Central". Do yourself and the world a favor, shop somewhere else instead.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W6TH on February 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have been Icom from the start, but ran into a newly purchased radio problem from Icom.

No output from the speaker output. Second the 20 db attenuator does nothing.

I will not send it back for correction as the remainder of the radio is excellent.

The fault is quality control and not the engineering.

I will repair these two problems when ready for another radio. In the meantime I shall enjoy its use.

.:

Elecraft, Ten Tec...

by N5LF on February 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Two words:

Elecraft
Ten-Tec (or does that count as two by itself?)

The Elecraft K2 - even if you pay someone to build it for you - is high quality at a very reasonable price.

Ten Tec makes several excellent models - to fit many price ranges.

Want quality? Buy older gear that has a proven track record. All manufacturers that have been in buusiness more than 10 years have such models on the used market.

Rule #1 in my book applies to BOTH software and hardware: Don't buy Versions that end in "point zero."

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KB3KAQ on February 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

i have to disagree with the comments that quality would drive the costs up from $800-1200 to the $3000-4000 range. that is simply not true. i used to work in the toy train industry and our products stuffered from a lack of quality control in China and Korea where they were manufactured.

the additional cost for the upgraded electronics and higher quality paint masking and the labor involved amounted to pennies per unit. it was deemed too costly to buy the extra "quality" by management who was trying to control costs.

for Icom or Yaesu to build that quailty in the radio would be a few dollars per unit. multiply that 2-3 per unit by the total run and you can see why they don't. the investment ties up too much cash that could be used by the marketing department to gloss over the endless parade of problems the customer will have.

i personally am waiting for the 746PRO issue to blow up into a class action suit. time will tell. look out Icom, i'm coming to Dayton...

KB3KAQ

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by W4PA on February 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>Of course, there are rumors going around that Ten-Tec is in financial trouble as well, probably because of this. The lack of profitability of ham gear killed Kachina with their 505DSP. Can't make a $2000 radio out of $2000 of parts-- it doesn't work.<<

Ham radio is not a growth market but if you build what the ham community wants, price it so it will sell, and keep a careful eye on costs you can be successful.
We're doing fine; we'll be building ham equipment for years to come - it's what we do.

73
Scott Robbins, W4PA
Amateur Radio Product Manager, Ten-Tec, Inc.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA0DTH on February 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think there are one or two dog radios with each ham radio equipment manufacture, over a period of time.
And now days with so much equipment being software driven, it adds to the risk of errors in the functionality. Also so much equipment, engineering and production are being outsource to the lowest bidder.
One thing I look at before purchasing a radio is:

1. How long has it been on the market,
The test of time is very valuable. Especially now days. Software bugs, performance, and parts issues from the field. It takes some time to ring out everything.
I don’t like the idea of running out and buying the first new product that hits the market. Especially if it is computer software driven.

2. Look at the end user reviews on eham.com
It wont take you too long to see how the radio is fairing in the hamshack.

3. How well is the product support for the unit.
Is the company well established and appealing to the market.

Just some thoughts for what it’s worth.

Terry, WA0DTH

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KD5YOU on February 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I read about other hams comments on the Icom 2720 several months ago. After that I decided to buy the Icom 208H. It doesn't have crossband repeat or VHF+UHF receive, but I can still talk on either band. It has the alpha tags and power level programmed with each memory channel. The display is easy to read from either side and is bright. I also have an HTX-202, Kenwood TH-22AT, and a Kenwood TH-79A. I haven't had the 79A very long, but the 22AT has been dropped and water was spilled on it. The 202 looks like it has been to the war and back, but all of them work great. I wish there was a domestic ham radio manufacturer and I would be willing to pay more for something that is done right the first time.

73's

John

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KQ4BX on February 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

My ICOM 746 PRO has not failed, but I guess it is too new. I will have to give it another year, it has only been 15 months.
Let's be fair here. Use some common sense when posting what you believe to be facts, which are only your views from where you stand.

Facts: You don't know how many Icom 746 Pro's were sold. Even though it was one of most popular ICOM radios ever sold.

Fact: The majority of HAMS that get on the Internet to talk about their radio, do it because it failed or is giving them some trouble. There are many that get on the net to learn how to better operate their rig too.

Fact: If there are a million 746 Pro's out there, and you heard about 100 failures, that is not so many. I doubt that you can recall 100 failures. Also, the HAMS that are complaining the loudest, are doing it everywhere anyone will listen, so you may be seeing posts from one person in many places on the net.

Fact: If you hang around in the Listserver for your radio, you are likely to see more complaints than anything else. This may give some narrow minded people the illusion that every radio ever made is defective. The only place I have not seen this sort of statement hold true is in the FT-920 group. They all talk about how great their rigs are, failures are far from the main topic. How many FT-920 were sold? Who the heck knows, but I can tell you that Yaesu didn't sell as many 920's as ICOM did 746 Pro's and feel comfortable that I am telling you the truth.

Your statements are pure slander, and you feel you are justified for some reason. Why don't you get some facts, and post a retraction?

Every sensible person knows that everything is relative. The total number of rigs sold is a valuable fact that is missing from your statement that says that every 746PRo has failed. Mine did not, so you are already wrong. I bet that there is at least one other that has not failed, that would make you double wrong. My factless claim is that you are totally wrong, and many of your statements are way off base.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KF6HLL on March 9, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

As one reply noted, "you vote with your dollars". You get what you pay for.

I've sold and repaired consumer electronics for 30 years (receivers, CD players, VCRs, tape decks, etc) and this is the complete story.

Let's face it, there is a Costco/WalMart mentality out there that says "I like it but it should be cheaper". So you buy that way and send a message to Japan, "Americans want lots of features but want to pay less."

That requires them to design it with lots of features, make it as cheaply as possible, and you have been seeing the results for 10 years: Cheaper built products, some undertested, leaving consumers to discover the problems for the manufacturers, etc...

Did you ever expect to find a VCR at Safeway or your favorite supermarket for $49? Did you think a DVD could actually be produced for $49, much less sold for that?

As long as you vote that way with your pocketbook, they'll keep producing it cheaply. Don't complain, you got what you voted for.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KE6PID on March 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No, I don’t believe they have. Looking back to a 1980 edition of QST the equipment available then was not as sophisticated by far as what’s available today. If you correct for inflation today’s equipment is much more capable for a much lower cost. In 1980 a mobile was mono-band, it was synthesized had only a basic memory – some but not all had single tone a PL deck, and sported maybe 20 watts of output. It was larger than what’s available today, and cost about double (corrected for inflation) of what you pay today for much more.
Is ham radio equipment the best available? In a word no. If it were not to many people would be able to afford it.
It’s basically high grade consumer electronics, not much more. Would you be willing to pay $300 - $600 or more for a feature poor mono-band HT? I don’t think they would sell to many, but that’s the going price for a commercial grade HT like a Bendix/King or Motorola. It’s my opinion that many perspective buyers of ham gear are more concerned with appearance and features like broad band receive, multi-color displays, high power output and tri-band operation than grass roots radio performance, and we want all this in miniature for cheap with a high capacity battery, so how durable is it going to be? So its frequency drifts around with temperature, transmit audio isn’t as good as it could be – but hey, it’s got a built in altimeter and I can change the dial to 16 different colors!

No, the radios you want is what’s been made available to you. You vote with your checkbook, they sell a load of gimmicky cheap rigs with suspect performance and questionable durability but sell far fewer of the rigs that emphasize grass roots performance and durability that cost more, where did you expect the manufacturers to put their focus?

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB8NUT on May 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Wow, never have had those kinds of problems, but then again, I don't usually buy Icom. I buy TenTecs, which are made in the U.S. and they are fantastic radios. Have three of them in the Shack and they work flawlessly. Not to mention, two of them have updateable firmware. If you are tired of inferior Japanese goods, start buying TenTec.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WB8TNJ on September 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I read an article in CQ magazine, August 2004 issue, page 27, on Yaesu's new FTDX-9000 rig. The price tag, $13,000.00, according to the subtitle of the picture, is rediculous. Whether I could afford this price or not is not the question, for me at least.

I find that the new rigs today are too compact. I find it difficult to believe they can operate properly with all the heat they generate inside. Yes, I know they have cooling fans but why make them so small, run such high power knowing they will fail due to heat related problems?

The bells and whistles the rigs have today, how or when would the average ham use them all not to mention the manus required to activate and/or adjust the options. Does that mean I would not try one of the new rigs? No, BUT, having read the articles and reviews, the problems a lot of these rigs have had, the over pricing, I seriously doubt I would buy one.

The manufactures talk of DSP, filtering and the many other options because of "crowded band conditions". Please!!! I'm on the air everyday and I have never heard the bands as crowded as they talk about. Working DX in a pile up, yes that happens but good operating practices can help and it doesn't cost you $13,000.00 for that.

I'm sure there are those out there who want the very best and the newest thing on the market if nothing more than to say "See I have it".

I'll stick with the older rigs such as Drake, Collins S-Line etc. They operate just as well and, in the end, do exactly what a $13,000.00 rigs basic design, minus all those useless bells and whistles, does, and that's to communicate on the ham bands but at a lot less cost. Who would pay $13,000.00 to operate CW? Not me that's for sure!!

73's

Michael
WB8TNJ

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K1CJS on September 6, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Three factors contribute to the fact of newer radios being poorly constructed and prone to failure.

First, the tendency of modern radio equipment to get smaller and smaller.

Second, the problem of those miniturized parts and heat dissipation from those parts.

Third, the work attitude of those who oversee the manufacture of the radios and those who do the final assembly and testing.

Its all part of our 'the hell with it' throw away culture.

I've heard that there's a company in the US that will start putting out their own line of ham radio gear at competitive prices, possibly as soon as next summer/fall. I think I'll see what those people offer before I drop any amount of money on new equipment. I can wait a year--how about you?

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by AH6FC on September 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sure is a lot of hostility out there.
I bought an IC-746 PRO in December '03; it was on sale. Never had owned ICOM before, had Heath...which was great when it worked. (when it didn't it was only my fault!). Read the many concernes about the transmitter failures on the 746, but took the chance. It has worked very well. No problems. I've had my questions regarding operational quirks answered within 1 day by ICOM via email. I'm very happy. Even with their problems, the newer rigs (i.e. ICOM, Kenwood, etc) are so much more reliable than the older rigs, and much cheaper (dollar devaluation adjusted).

Though I'm lusting after the IC-7800, I might be interested in an upgraded 756 III (IV).

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on October 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

yes! YOU CAN BUY A RACAL RA-3752 DUAL RX WITH DSP FOR ABOUT $2000!

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KD4DWP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have had some problems with Icom FRS radios. The model is the 4008A. I can't tell you how many times I have sent these back. I paid $125 for the pair about 4 years ago. I still have problems to this day. I could send them back again but gave up. Thinking about it I think they have been back to Icom in Washington about 8 times. They work for awhile then quit.

I have a Kenwood TS-450S with no problems at all. I had to send it back once because I broke the mic knob and they fixed it in a week. I have had the radio since 1992.

I currently own 3 Alinco VHF/UHF rigs and have not had any problems. I have owned an Alinco DR-570 since 1991 . I sent it back to Alinco once because I lost a knob and a button and wanted them to check the radio out. This was in the mid 90s. Turn around 1 week also.
I also had a DR-130 with no problems. Last Christmas was given a DR-235 and have had no problems

I had a Kenwood TR-140 before the TR 450 and it was great also.

For a short period of time I had a Yaesu 847 with many problems and also a dual band Yaesu H/T with several problems. The glass display fell apart. I don't remember the model number.

I also owned a Radio Shack two meter H/T that I sold a few years ago with no problems.

Hope this helps someone in the future,

Ben

icom has problems?

by N7SSS on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

http://www.co.medina.oh.us/judgecollier/jury_verdicts_2004.htm

4-5-04 ICOM of America, Inc. v. Rapid 2 Way

Case no. 03 CIV 0078

In this case, the Plaintiff, ICOM America, claimed the Defendant owed $114,000 to Plaintiff on an account for products sold and shipped to Defendant. Plaintiff sold Defendant hundreds of hand-held radios and accessories. Defendant, Rapid 2 Way, purchased these radios for rent and sale in its business. Defendant acknowledged that it owed money to Plaintiff on account, however Defendant claimed the Plaintiff supplied it with substandard and defective radios causing damage to Defendant’s business. Defendant claimed Plaintiff committed fraud in its representations regarding the radios.

The Plaintiff was represented by Kenneth Baker, Esq., and Michael Slodov, Esq., of Cleveland, Ohio. The Defendant was represented by Bruce Hall, Esq., of Medina, Ohio and Gregory Beck, Esq., of North Canton, Ohio.

Verdict: After a thirteen day trial, the jury awarded the Plaintiff $92,915.95 on its claim on the account and attorney fees. The jury awarded the Defendant $579,131.83 on its claim of breach of contract and breach of warranty. The jury awarded the Defendant $774,321.50 on its claim of fraud. The jury further awarded $1,045,837 in punitive damages along with attorney fees.

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by KJ7YL on December 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think there is some truth that the quality of ham radio products have gone down. There are other brands that do not get the credit they have comming.

I have two Alinco 605TQ radios both of which have never failed in the three years I have owned them. The radio recievers do not have intermod problems because the reciever frequency range does not go up to 800mhz.

Clearly there are models no matter who makes them are lemons. When the companies do not fix the issue or the have several products that fail then I would suggest another brand. My Alincos work well here in Seattle in a high RF area.

RE: Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by K0DEN on January 12, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

I also agree,

This is why i have taken to convert the commercial stuff to my needs. I currently use a Motorola MT1000
HT due to the fact that i had a Kenwood THD7A and it got knocked over and broke. Right now i am in the process of converting a GE/Ericsson M-PA to ham bands, the only draw back...these radios are not field programmable and unless you have access to the cables and software which are pretty expensive, your radio dealer is not going to be happy with you when you go in to his shop every week to reprogram.

73 de KØDEN

Have Our Radio Manufacturers Sold Us Out?

by WA2JJH on January 14, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

After much research and trial and error. We have been sold out.

I am getting a K2. I have a Tmos amp, I designed for it. The k2 is single conversion! However there are good old fashion xtal filters in it.

I am selling off the pegasus, and 2 falling apart ts-850's. One sold off as parts.

I will keep the 2 TR-7's and one R-7a, because I can sell them for a profit!

Yes xtal filter-less dual conversion all DSP is a sell out.imho

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