Apples and Oranges...
Fred Martin (KI6YN)
on
March 9, 2004
View comments about this article!
I read the letters and complaints about the current crop of transceivers. As electronics engineer that designs satellite ground stations, I have at least a modicum of understanding of what it takes to make a good rig. Most of the comments I read show complete ignorance about basic economics and electronics. The bottom line is that 'you get what you pay for', there are darn few exceptions to that.
I am an amateur astronomer as well as a ham. I've found that most amateur astronomers are like most hams; they can cite chapter and verse from advertisements and nonsense they've heard from others in the hobby. Instead of investigating and studying, they take the word of others. It seems that this is true in most hobbies. When I first became a ham in 1988, the big push was phase locked loops and phase noise. I was amazed at the nonsense I read and especially the way the specs were quoted in the ads. Only Ten-Tec made sense in that they exclaimed exactly the way they made their measurements and gave realistic baselines. The antenna manufacturers were nothing but con artists with their ads, very little has changed!
I recently bought a Ten Tec Orion; it is a great radio for any price compared to what is on the market. I've seen it compared to the K2, another terrific rig.... but they are not even close in design and specifications. Lets get real, when you get near the top of the performance curves, every little bit cost a lot more than the gain in the middle or bottom of the curve. I wouldn't want to take the Orion out in the field but wouldn't hesitate to take a K2. One of the best rigs I've ever had was an old Delta 580, and I am still sorry that I sold it. My Icom 761 was a rock solid rig for ten years. It is true that quality control has become an issue in all countries, not just Asia. I had a 756 PRO and was quite disappointed with its performance.
My Omni 6 Plus was a superior rig in all ways but sure didn't look like much next to the Pro with the pan display and ten thousand knobs, switches and whatever. Of course, the Omni was easier to operate and being direct injection and ham band only, a much quieter rig than the Pro. Remember, the narrower the bandwidth of the front-end, the lower the noise is going to be; general coverage usually implies a large bandwidth for each segment. The tuning knob on the Omni turned like an old pig and the one on the Pro was smooth and well balanced, but the real object was sweet sounding CW both in and out and the Omni won hands down.
So, purchase a big fancy box and impress your friends with your possessions that you purchased and had nothing to do with in the design or stick with the object of the hobby, get a rig that performs both receiving and transmitting well. That is what the hobby is all about. I might mention that I also have a Yaesu FT-847, a great rig for mobile and can do it all. It certainly can't compete with the Orion at the base station level, but then again, the Orion wouldn't be very good for mobile and doesn't have UHF or VHF; the 847 costs about a third of what the Orion costs. See what I mean about Apples and Oranges.
Make a list of those features that are important to you and prioritize it. If the new rigs are too expensive for your budget, the look at some used stuff. There are a lot of classic rigs out there that are quite reasonable. Stop buying based upon advertisements and appearance of the radios and the manufacturers will clean up their own act.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KI4BNH on March 9, 2004
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I will eye with great suspicion those who try to flame you Fred. I think you speak the truth.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KT0DD on March 9, 2004
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Great Post Fred ! I too own a "sleeper" Omni 6+, and firmly believe that Ten Tec puts it's engineering where it counts, on performance. I hear stations that my friends with Yaecomwoods don't hear, and under all types of propagation / conditions, good AND poor. And Ten Tec service is unbeatable, IF you ever need it.
I was at Dayton 2003 when ick-com (oops) Icom introduced their IC-7800 Fire Breathing Dragon, and went to Ten Tec's booth and asked Scott Robbins, W4PA, about this +40db Third order intercept point that Icom is advertising, when the Orion is rated at only +23db T.O.I. Scott told me that at 20 KHZ signal spacing, they very well could have +40db T.O.I, with the 7800, but it's doubtful that it will have even +23db T.O.I. at 5khz spacing or closer as the 7800 uses a 6 KHZ roofing filter, and the Orion has a much narrower filter system, and ham band only recieve to boot. It will be interesting to compare the numbers, and maybe two Orions will be faster, better, cheaper than a $10,000 IC-7800. 73.
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by KA4KOE on March 9, 2004
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I'd be very interested why you were disappointed with the PRO, as I own one. I upgraded from a Kenwood '830s.
I love mine. Just curious.
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My 2 cents....
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by K7ZA on March 9, 2004
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On a purely subjective note, I own both a Omni VI plus and a IC-756 PROII. I operate CW contests and prefer the PROII to the Omni VI. Why? Can't put my finger on it but I feel more comfortable with the ICOM.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by M3SKF on March 9, 2004
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well said it takes guts to tell it like it is,hope to hear more from you in the future.
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by KI6YN on March 9, 2004
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The 756 Pro sat next to my Omni 6 +, there was no comparison between the two rigs. The Omni had a much lower noise floor and the DSP was far superior to that in the Pro. The Pro had too many nonsensical buttons and knobs for my fat fingers. All kidding aside, the Omni was just a better performer and easier to operate. I only operate CW, the SSB on the Pro was much better with respect to received audio. I use telemetry recievers that cost over $70K and am very familiar with getting that last bit of performance at the high end. Bottom line on any station is the antenna. The bigger the better and less the performance one demands of the transceiver. I usually operate QRP but will go the full 100 watts if conditions are bad. I love to ragchew and rarely, if ever, will chase cardboard. I had my share when I operated CW from Pitcairn Island in 92 as VR6FM! You have a good rig there and I must admit the pan display was a pleasure to use to check band conditions in a hurry, but alas, the Pro isn't on the same continent as either the Omni nor the Orion with respect to noise floor, sensitivity, and ease of operation. But alas, Apples and Oranges, the Orion is digital with roofing filters and the Omni is crystal mix direct injection, hence ham bands only.
Best 73 and c u l
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by KC8VWM on March 10, 2004
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Yup, I own a Yaesu FT-847 too. I know Orion makes better built radios but your right about the costs.
Overall, I thing the Yeasu FT-847 is a lot of "apples and oranges" for the money.
There is a great mod for the FT-847 I would like to share with the readers that decreases the noise floor on the reciever.
It makes the reciever sound like a completely new radio.
It involves swaping out a few cheap and "noisy" diodes inside the radio to Shottky BAT85 low noise diodes.
700k PDF file
http://80.162.141.166/mods.dk/downloads/DG2IAQ_Modification_Sheet_YAESU_FT-847.pdf
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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by NE1RD on March 10, 2004
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Just a quick note regarding Elecraft stuff. Not only do you
get a great radio, but you also have an opportunity to
have a fantastic experience building the rig.
I bought and built a K1 about a year ago and it was one
of the most enjoyable 40 hours I've spent recently. The
assembly instructions are clear and explicit, the diagrams
are complete and well organized, and, of course, the
radio itself it top shelf.
There is something deeply satisfying using a radio
you've built with your own hands. Plus, you know
you can fix it later if you built it yourself in the first
place!
My K1 eventually went to a ham who wanted the
radio but was unable to build his own. I'd like to
believe I found it a good home. Now, if I could
just pull together the bucks for a K2... :-)
-- Scott (NE1RD)
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by W3DCG on March 10, 2004
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Funny. I have a low end Ten Tec. I won't part with my 850. But- I keep coming back to the Ten Tec... I simply prefer using my Pegasus for everyday operation, it's more comfortable, faster to QSY, has radar, albeit nothing like real time Pro/ProII, and cost me less than 1/3 a ProII. Finally, the smoothness of the keying on this 1/3 the cost of a ProII rig is surpassed by none, at any price, and equalled only by other Ten Tecs including Orion (I'm talking about QSK here).
For someone who operates 90% CW or more, I would think this matters most. Like the Hi Fi SSB audiophiles out there, where nothing less than HiFi will do, seems like for CW people, nothing less than smooth, perfect, keying characteristics will do, particularly in the region between Full Break In and Semi Break In.
Ten Tecs have evolved from either Fast or Slow QSK, such that now the QSK is adjustable. The magnificent simple Tone On Tone Off switching vehicle that is Ten Tec's mark in trade, absolute Full Break In or Semi break In, or any point in between, continues to bring a smile to my face every time I transmit. I am in awe every time I send a character.
With CW, keying characteristics are like enunciation, on phone.
Ten Tec rules in the CW enunciation category. No contest.
Top that off with, the audio with ordinary microphones is excellent.
But, hey, given fit and finish, Ten Tec's are not exactly inexpensive. In fact, given the dumping prices of FT 897's for a while, I will admit, were it not for Pegasus, I'd be owning an 897 right now, and accepting Slow QSK, as a sacrifice, for portability, and optional conventional mechanical or crystal filtering in conjuction with DSP, even if it's "only" AF DSP.
Be that as it is- one must hand it to Ten Tec, their manuals make sense, you get a nice dose of theory, at least you once did, with PTO versions up through the 6 plus, complete with PCB photo shots, stage by stage, photographed diagrams...as well as block diagrams and schematics.
Sure my Corsair may be currently inoperable, but it feels good to know that if I want, I can have it repaired, at the factory. Perhaps my Pegasus sounds "digital" even a bit fuzzy, like a sweet Peach is a bit fuzzy...it's still rather tasty. Probably I could send it home for a visit to Tennessee for a minor work-over, and clean it up a bit- even closer to absolute perfection.
So regarding Apples to Oranges, it seems that Ten Tec is in it's own category.
Good old fashioned, home town manufacturing, with advantages and disadvantages. The Fit and Finish may not be on par with others, while excellence in engineering, evidenced by ease of operation, excellent ergonomics, excellent performance, and QSK unmatched by any and all, are qualities that should make any Ten Tec owner and/or countryman proud.
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RE: Apples and Oranges... Roofing Filters
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by N3HKN on March 10, 2004
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It seems that roofing filters (preselector) are receiving more attention now that manufacturers realize that they need to keep strong out-of-band stuff out of the radio as soon as they can. I wonder if I already have at least one good roofing filter on my mediocre Icom-746.
That filter is a 20 meter high Q magnetic loop one meter on a side made from 1/2 inch copper pipe. It is less than "about" 300 khz wide at 1.5 swr points. Since I live in a townhouse the loop turns out to have this BONUS feature. Probably do not really need it since without a monoband at 75ft strong saturating signals are rare. But nice to know that my receiver is actually improved with my antenna rather than being stretched to its limits!
Dick N3HKN
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by K5DVW on March 10, 2004
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I'm an RF Design engineer. I design radios for a living and the level of operation I've seen on a lot of ham equipment is horrible, even for their cost. But, we aren't commercial users and we don't demand, as a group, high performing radios. We compare things like sensitivity on HF rigs, which means virtually nothing and we get worried if the rig only produces 95W instead of 100W. We completely ignore adjacent channel performance and intermod rejection, which in my opinion IS the receiver performance. Infact, manufacturers rarely give us that information. Why? We're more interested in a gazillion memory channels, fancy lights, beeps and wide band receivers.
I wish the vendors would come out with a high performance version of their radios and charge 10 or 20% more. Many of us would gladly pay for performance.
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by KB9YUR on March 10, 2004
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Could it simply be that many of the older radios made in the last 10-15 years perform
better ?!? As an example, why does my older Icom 275H 2m allmode always receive
better then my 746 on 2m?
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by K3WQ on March 10, 2004
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Very nicely said.
I agree with your advice concerning how to make a new purchase (make a prioritized list of features, then purchase accordingly). I did precisely this when I purchased my present HF rig. I wanted an uncomplicated, new transceiver for less than $1000 with an internal keyer and a broadband receiver because I'm also an SWL. This meant that my choices were the bottom-of-the-line rigs offered by Icom, Yeasu and Kenwood. I picked the Icom IC-718 because owned Icom gear before. I knew that I was not going to get a top performer. The CW filter still passes strong signals beyond 1kHz (annoying during contests) and it doesn't have QSK, but I don't really care enough to "buy up."
I also agree with another poster, K5DVW, who said receiver performance is best determined by adjacent-channel and intermod rejection, rather than power and sensitivity. My Icom IC-718 would be the perfect rig if a little more attention had been paid to these performance measures in the design.
-Dave, K3WQ
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by KI6YN on March 10, 2004
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I'm not surprised with the comments. One thing that has to be understood and is specs for intermod or third order intercept (TOI). Without going through the arithmetic and just in layman's terms, it is the interference caused by an adjacent signal. The comment wherein the writer states that the Icom sales rep stated their TOI is "40 dB" is indicative of the nonsense we get in amateur radio ads today. Adjacent interference will be a lot closer than 20 KHz, more like 5 KHz or less, so why would anyone talk about intermod from a signal 20 KHz away? It is a marketing game called specmanship or brinkmanship or what I call bull..! Lets get real, once someone purchases a rig and realizes they got the short end of the stick, they won't do business with that company again. I can't say that Ten Tec is the best in the world, only that it is the best I've been able to find for MY OWN SATISFACTION. By the way, the Orion still has a bug with the pan display, but it isn't a show stopper. I don't work SSB, PSK, RTTY, AM, FM, just CW, so that is how I'm going to judge a rig. I enjoy it when I get comments about the sweet keying characteristics of my rig/s and as mentioned in a comment above, listening to the sweetest QSK around, thank you for the pin diodes as standard equipment Ten Tec. Please, study a bit of theory or ask an expert to explain things before you invest in a rig. As to quotes in ads like: "I worked a xyx1ek" or "got a rtr94ggz right out of the box with only 5 micro watts with a safety pin antenna", when you see that in a review or ad, better do some studying if that impresses you. I'll end this with my biggest lesson in ham radio, learned it my second year as a ham: I worked a guy in Florida, I'm in Southern California, he gave me a 599 and we ragchewed a bit and after signing, I got a call from a North Carolina station, he gave me a 449! OK, I think, just what is happening, I'm still running 100 watts to a two element cubical quad up 60 feet and my signal drops 30 dB right nextdoor to my last contact! Next exchange he tells me he is using a ten meter dipole in his attic!!! So much for signal reports and specifications for TOI, you have to know the baseline (standard, if there is one) being used for the testing. Like my favorite expert on antennae would tell you, when they state the gain of an antenna is 5000 dB, just what is that in reference to? That is the question you have to ask yourself. In all probability, it is being compared to a needle encapsulated in a Faraday Shield three thousand feet underground in an old well!
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by WI2Q on March 10, 2004
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I thought the equipment reviews were in a different section?
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by BANACEK on March 10, 2004
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There is your old complainer right there,
he can't find a real reason to complain, so he
complains that this article is in the wrong section.
Get a life, loser.
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by KC8VWM on March 10, 2004
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>>> I thought the equipment reviews were in a different section? <<<
Unlike the regular equipment review section, this forum is providing me with a much broader scope of information on all radio equipment as opposed to a single review on a particular radio.
I especially enjoyed the article by KI6YN describing the marketing tactics companies use to exploit radio equipment specifications.
Very informative articles. Thank you.
Charles - KC8VWM
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by KB2CPW on March 10, 2004
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I agree, as all hams usually begin this hobby by believing the hype in magazines and ads(most new hams dont benefit from Elmers until they've made a purchase and get on the air). They tend to rely on periodicals and articles when gathering equipment. Advertisers know this and make wacky claims in their ads to excite the newbies.
I too started out making purchases before knowing enough hams that would steer me thru the many pages of equipment towards the stuff I could rely on an benefit from. I was lucky though, as most of my purchases were well thought out and I never got burned or taken in by the ads, I listened on the bands to the radios and wrote down what others were using... Some arent so lucky and buy stuff they end up dumping on the weekly swap and shop (at a loss).
These ads sometime help us formulate opinions on the gear we buy and recommend to others, right or wrong. I used to laugh when some of the locals argued with a fellow ham on his choice of a Ten Tec rig as his main radio (the very expensive Omni V at that time). He would religiously recite specs and boast on how quiet the rig was and everyone would jump on him for the lack of "bells and whistles" and its hefty price tag of the time.
Anyway, the joke was on us. I had the opportunity to check one out later on and I was impressed. I have since owned the V, 6,6+ and an assortment of other older TT's over the years and was impressed with every single one of them. My all time favorite was the regular Omni VI. A nice balance of a DSP notch and a super clean RX that was second to none, In fact, I never had another radio with such a clean rx. The 6+ was nice but the DSP and CPU on mine kinda leaked into the RX audio path and made annoying noises that I noticed, maybe just the one I had did it, but I pined for the regular Omni VI I once had. :-)
I am looking to buy the Orion now, I just have to figure out which bank in my neighborhood to rob. Just kidding, I can swing it now without commiting a crime but sneaking that monster in will be a problem, and BTW, luckily it runs on 12v as I will be thrown out when it arrives :-) I just have to figure out how to mount it under the dash of my Honda and erect a tri band beam thru the sunroof. Best wishes to all, N2ZD Richy
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by VE3XYD on March 10, 2004
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YAESU won't let you down! Specialy FT-920... Once you try black you won't go back. HI HI
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by KT8K on March 10, 2004
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I agree with KB2CPW about new hams' knowledge and access to good elmering. I think there was more elmering going on in the past, and new hams more often had the assistance of the more experienced.
Another argument for each of us doing some (or more) elmering, and for supporting our local ham clubs.
New and prospective hams reading this - check out your local clubs and find one where the people are having fun doing things you find interesting. If nothing else, go to www.arrl.org, click on the "clubs" link, and do a quick search for clubs near your zip code. Then listen in (or check in) to the local nets and visit a club meeting or event (or two). Your ham radio fun will be significantly enhanced!
Hope to catch you on the air soon. 73 es best rx de kt8k - Tim
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by KT8K on March 10, 2004
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Oh yeah, and there are a lot of good ham club websites. Here's the one I belong to ... www.w8pgw.org.
Good reception! 73 de kt8k - Tim
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by WI2Q on March 10, 2004
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I too truly enjoyed the article.... and I want to apologize for the comment "I thought the equipment reviews were in a different section" . It wasn't meant to be sarcastic. After receiving a few emails about it, I realize it wasn't a very nice thing to say in the manner it was phrased. I hope I didn't offend the writer.... again.. my sincere apology.
Dave
Wi2Q
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by VE3FG on March 10, 2004
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Well done; a most interesting article and how very true.
Fred VE3FG
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by WA1SSY on March 11, 2004
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Hey WI2Q!
It takes a lot of class to say you're sorry. Good for you. We need more courtesy like that in our hobby. Attended my first QCWA meeting yesterday, older guys..very gracious. Hmmm, a young guy like me could learn something from these guys.
Best Regards,
Joe, WA1SSY
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by KL7IPV on March 11, 2004
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Great article. My first Ten Tec was their Omni-D. It was a great radio with the quietest receiver I ever had up until then. I had a couple of other radios and then the Delta II. That Jones filter let me hear stuff others didn't even know was there. I sold it to buy a smaller radio to fit my smaller cars. I still wish I had the Delta II to go back to when the noise on the bands seems to fill every corner. Thanks for the reminder.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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by WB8JKR on March 11, 2004
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Although improvements in receivers has been marked
and appreciated, it would sure be nice if manufacturers would clean up the dirty transmitters.
I have never owned a TenTec rig, but I have repaired
a number of their amplifiers and I find the physical
construction quality to be shabby. Just MHO.
Mark WB8JKR
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by K3ESE on March 11, 2004
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Well, this is a view from left field...my current main rig is a multiPIG+, designed and sold by Diz, W8DIZ. The way it looks is one of the reasons I like it! It looks like I built it! It's open, so I can change all the jumpers I need to switch bands, or to trim up ther BPF for a different section of the band. It has a bunch of bells and whistles...all added by me, and more to come. It uses a PLL VFO, and the RCVE performance compares favorably to that of the K2.
Once, I was an appliance operator. Then, I decided to learn what I could about how RF gets that way, so I started building. Using this rig is exquisitely fun...far more than anything at all that comes in a box.
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by WS8K on March 11, 2004
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KI6YN's great article leads me to beleive that all of us with general coverage rigs could benefit from using one-band band-pass filters between our rigs and antennas when we want to settle in and do some serious operating on a particular band. Of course, special consideration might be necessary on the transmit side of things. 73, Tim WS8K
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by K4CMD on March 11, 2004
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I really wanted all that nice selectivity too, but am an avid SWLer along with being an avid HFer and part-time contester/Field Day enthusiast.
Imagine my thrill when I discovered the Yaesu FT-1000MP Mark V Field, which has HF wideband receive and AM synchronous tuning for my SWL tastes, and a dozen bandpass filters, manual preselector, hybrid DSP/analog IF filtering and built-in AC/CD capability for my ham tastes.
What more could I ask for! I'm off to Charlotte Saturday to pick one up. See you on the bands!
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by WB2WIK on March 11, 2004
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Nice article, Fred! And it was good of you to point out that you operate only CW, so things like speech processor performance probably aren't even on the list of stuff you care about, but others might.
I've never found a lab test yet that could simulate a large, high-powered multi/multi contest condition where six 1500W transmitters are operated simultaneously, in the same room and using tower-mounted antennas spaced across a typical suburban lot, along with six sensitive receivers for those same bands. Or operating from a large multi/multi station with stacked monobanders on tall towers for each HF band, during peak F2 conditions when 99% of the signals on a band are all 40dB/S9 -- all of them. The stronger ones might be 30 dB stronger than that, but won't read any higher on the meter, since that's already pegged. It would take a randomly modulated comb generator to duplicate that situation, but it's a real-world condition during HF contests.
CU on the bands!
WB2WIK/6
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by N2YZS on March 11, 2004
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Very good article. Bells and whistles do not equate with performance. I have been extremely happy with the performance of Ten Tec equipment, because I can hear stations I could not on other equipment. They are uncomplicated and easy to use (good for us more simple minded people), and you can get high quality repair service and technical advice. The old saying is "Beauty is only skin deep." If there is nothing under that beautiful skin, then all you can do is look. I see the ham band radios with preselectors as the greatest things available to hams. If I want to listen to short wave, I'll buy a shortwave radio! Lots of crystal filtering also is a plus to me. I'm just learning the ins and outs of DSP, so I can't say much about it, except when I push a Noise Reduction button and the background noise falls significantly, it's a plus. The difference between 85 and 100 watts out is not significant to me (I have worked Russia with 50 watts out on my Scout while mobile with a Spider antenna). One last note: the two best things you can do for any station is provide the station with proper RF grounding (I have multiple paths, all different lengths electrically), and put up the best antennas you can afford, or that fit on your property. These two items will not only improve your station in its current configuration, but will also pay rewards as you upgrade your station. OK. Now you can chew me up!
73s Vern
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by W7DUD on March 11, 2004
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This is a superb article Fred.
Just a few of my observations, if you will indulge me.
I had 2 $1000.00 price class rigs. One with no amp. and the other on my station across the room, with the HF2500 hooked to it. I decided to upgrade, and purchased an FT1000MP Mark V, and an Omni 6+, after reading product reviews etc. At this point, Cancer called on the phone, and I underwent Chemo, Radiation, and major surgery. in 2001, I managed to return to my hobby. The Omni 6+ had decided not to transmit, and was out of warranty. I used the FT1000MP Mark 5 for about 2 1/2 years, and it was a classy rig. About 3 months ago, I decided to "Fix" the Omni 6+. I narrowed the search to relay K1. The relay had a loose solder joint on the top of the relay (probably not Ten Tecs fault, it was an intermittant problem).
To make a long story short, I put the Omni back together, and fired it up. To my considerable surprise, it has a very fine low noise, and sensitive receiver, and the factory filters seem very sharp. It is now a sweet rig. I can't explain why exactly, but it is the easiest rig to listen to, and to operate. Both my rigs are good, but the Omni has won the starting position.
Both the Omni 6+, and the FT1000MP Mark V, are several cuts above the bargain rigs I have.
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by KE2IV on March 12, 2004
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Oh the old TenTec's anonymous crowd!
I briefly (very briefly) owned an Argonaut V.
Over rated and confusing to begin with. And then, to really protect the (we're talking low power here, folks) final you had to add the "optional" fan. That installation required ripping into the rig and doing semi-major surgery!
Tell me what other company makes the final transistor fan an "option" rather than standard equipment!
The TenTec crowd are like fundamentalist christians, always with us - rarely correct!
This banter is veiled anti-Japanese b.s.
Reminds me of the '70's when the Collins and Drake crowd were whining about "rice boxes"!
Been there, heard it, it's b.s.!
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by N4OI on March 12, 2004
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I REALLY like my Yaesu FT-920. It has been rock-solid and some of the "bells and whistles" like the voice recorder / playback are very useful during SSB contests. The DSP is just audio but it cuts a lot of the QRM on the CW sub-bands. I get many unsolicited compliments about both the SSB and CW audio. I even had someone on PSK tell me my IMD was the best they had ever seen! About the only feature that I find I miss is a dual receive. For the money, it has been a great find. 73 de Ken - N4OI
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by W7DUD on March 12, 2004
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"The TenTec crowd are like fundamentalist christians, always with us - rarely correct!"
How would you know if ten-tec owners are correct? I don't see you here, with me, to evaluate my rigs. Who else, in this collumn, had you evaluate their rigs, with them?
"This banter is veiled anti-Japanese b.s."
This is way out broad, unspecific noise, and meaningless.
"Reminds me of the '70's when the Collins and Drake crowd were whining about "rice boxes"!"
I have only heard the derogatory term "rice boxes", in this thread once.
"Been there, heard it, it's b.s.!"
Been where? Head what? If you know, prove you were there, and heard it all. Do you practice "Remote Viewing"?
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Apples and Oranges...
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by WW8WV on March 12, 2004
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Great article,
I have had plenty of the "bell and whistle" rigs such as the FT 920, Ten Tec Jupiter and others. The FT 920 and the Jupiter etc... are fine rigs and I have enjoyed them in the shack BUT, I have learned much by my trusty ole Ten Tec Omni V. Where the DSP in the 920 and the Jupiter ( with the Jupiters IF dsp much more effective ) do help, the Omni V still is a much better receiver. It has much lower noise and can pull the weak stations in where the other rigs can't even hear them. I guess what I'm trying to say is that DSP is only being used to "hide" poor engineering in modern rigs and yes, I include modern Ten Tec rigs in this class. Any more, I take performance over "bells and whistles", and it's nice to own a rig where DSP is not even needed.
Again, great article and responses. Very interesting and useful post.
Jeremy-WW8WV
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by KI6YN on March 12, 2004
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Fundamentalist Ten Tec; I think that is as silly because there no content to your comments that refer to any specifics. Not one mention of specifics; just accusing me and others of being anti Japaneese rigs. Your comments are indicative of your reading comprehension; I complimented several Japaneese rigs and even stated I owned one. My intent was and still is to compare rigs on a equal footing. I am not pro any manufacturer, Ten Tec has had a few dogs and there is still a problem with the pan display in the Orion. But then again, the bottom line in this hobby is communications and with respect to that, let's stay on an even playing field. Keep your rash generalizations and taking things out of content to yourself, stick to the intent of the comments. Again there are many great rigs out there, but then again, if one doesn't really understand what is going on, the advertising from several of the manufacturers is just plain misleading and full of lies. Who cares about third order values that are measured 20 KHz away? Only a fool would accept that as a relevant spec. You want to call me names, fine, go back and cut holes in your pillow case and burn old copies of QST and have a ball. It won't have any affect on me. Between maches though, get an education.
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by W7DUD on March 12, 2004
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KI6YN:
Very good comment. That blanket, overreaching, no basis comment was totaly lacking in help from "grey matter", and does not even remotely apply to anything that has been said here.
These kinds of vague, no intellect comments, are usually made out of frustration, when one does not have the essential tools to say something meaningful.
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RE: My 2 cents....
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by W6QR on March 12, 2004
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I also have a PRO II and an OMNI 6+. Why do I prefer the PRO II? It appeals to the part of me that has acclimated to today's fast paced and 'high tech is better' life style. The first thing that comes to mind is the spectrum display, it spoiled me immediately. It permits me to quickly scan bands and determine if and where activity exists, where the pile-ups are, etc. There are also more things I can adjust and play with that make me feel that the performance must be better. I am, however, constantly reminded of the mediocre QSK performance. Now, if I am willing to spend a few minutes tuning each band the advantages of the spectrum scope are greatly reduced. The OMNI 6+'s relatively simple interference rejection features perform as well as the complex PRO II features.
Now that I can have my cake and eat it too I ordered an Orion. What rig will I keep for a backup?? The OMNI 6+.
Bill, W6QR
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RE: My 2 cents....
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by KT0DD on March 12, 2004
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>"Ah the old Ten Tec Anonymous crowd" & "Been there, Heard it, it's BS".
I'll bet this guy is in charge of outsourcing American Jobs to India / China / Mexico, at his place of employment. 73.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KR3DX on March 13, 2004
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The comments by Fred are right on target. However, I think the phrase "you get what you pay for", should be modified to: "you never get more than you pay for". There are plenty of con artists out there, both in and out of Amateur Radio, who are more than willing to separate the uninformed from their money. That 40db TOI is achieved by automatically reducing the RF gain in the presence of a strong signal. This artificially inflates the TOI figure. Now, I wonder what the Orion's TOI figure would be if the RF gain control was adjusted from max to min when the measurement was being taken. It's the same old numbers game. If some of the manufacturers would put as much effort into their rig's design as they put into figuring out how to fool the uninformed into thinking their junk is better than it actually is, they might have some gear that would give Ten-Tec some competition. Until then, Sayonara (whatever).
73,
Anonymous Ten-Tec promoter, right-wing extremist, christian, straight white male
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by N2YZS on March 13, 2004
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Quoting from WW8WV: "Where the DSP in the 920 and the Jupiter ( with the Jupiters IF dsp much more effective ) do help, the Omni V still is a much better receiver." Just to make a point about Ten Tec (I know, here we go again!), I went to the Ten Tec Hamfest 2 years ago, just before the Orion was introduced. My friend, who went with me, was seriously playing with a Pegasus (a Jupiter without the front face, basically). I believe it was Stan Brock who talked to him. When my friend said "I think it has a better receiver than my radio at home", Stan asked him what radio he would compare it to at home. My friend replied that he is using a Corsair (first edition) at home. Stan told him outright that he would be disappointed in the Pegasus once he stacked it beside his Corsair, because the Corsair receiver was still superior in low noise floor and actually hearing signals. He was, in a sense, trying to talk my friend out of a Pegasus (and did not try to steer him to any other product!). My friend purchased one anyway, and when we got home, we found that Stan had told him the truth. The Pegasus did work very well for digital modes, and the DSP filters were quite good, but the receiver, in general, was not up to the performance of the Corsair. The moral is:
How many people with be truthful enough about their products to tell you information like this? I can attest that Ten Tec will, and it plays heavily in my choice of Ten Tec equipment (along with great customer support and repair service). Maybe I am single minded, but I have compared my Ten Tecs side by side with others, and, in my totally unscientific comparisons, have chosen Ten Tec as my brand of choice. OK. Go ahead and chew me to pieces. Vern
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KR3DX on March 13, 2004
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I would like to back up the statement by N2YZS concerning the honesty of Ten-Tec. I was at Dayton a few years ago, at the Ten-Tec booth looking over the Jupiter. One of the Ten-Tec representatives was answering my questions. He asked what rig I was using. I replied "an Omni VI Plus". He told me that rig had a better receiver than the Jupiter. I would expect that to be the case, of course, but It's really nice (and rare, unfortunately) for a company to be honest and possibly lose an immediate sale, but of course it's good business in the long term, which seems to be the goal of Ten-Tec. I bought a Jupiter anyway, and I will trade in the Omni VI Plus for an Orion. My suggestion for deciding on what "features" to look for when purchasing a rig: get a good receiver (most transmitters are just fine, if properly adjusted). Then go out and buy yourself a video game for the times when you feel like twisting knobs and pushing buttons while watching changes on a display screen and listening to bloops and bleeps.
73,
Denny
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by AE6IP on March 13, 2004
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Well said. The last paragraph should be required reading for anyone buying anything technical -- not just ham gear.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KA7BTV on March 14, 2004
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Very interesting debate. Here is a different view. I own and use daily a 19-year old Kenwood TS-430s. In the 14 years that I've owned it, it hasn't had a single problem. It receives very well, transmits very well, gets great audio reports on SSB, great tone reports on CW, and in general is still just a solid performer. I have friends who have much more modern and high-dollar rigs, and have used some of them. I've tried out an Icom '756ProII, an Icom IC-706, an Icom IC-746, a Yaesu FT-847, and a few others. I was thinking about "Upgrading" my rig last year, so I read alot of equipment reviews, and got as much personal experience with as many modern rigs as I could. I assembled all of this new found knowledge and concluded that my old '430s is still doing a remarkable job, and that most of the features on the new rigs with which I played weren't really that important to me anyway. So, I bought another Kenwood TS-430s (used, of course). The end result is that I have not one but two fine rigs, one for main HF ham use, and one for SWL/Backup/Portable ops. With the money I saved, I got some other cool stuff. So you see, it really does depend on individual needs and tastes. My solution worked great for me but mabye not so great for you. It is, afterall, a hobby, and an old saying applies: "To each his/her own" :)
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KR3DX on March 14, 2004
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This is off of the topic, but I feel compelled to point out that the "old" saying is: "To each his own".
73
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by KB2CPW on March 14, 2004
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In response to the negative Ten Tec comments.. I would like to know how you came to that conclusion by only sampling one of their radios and not a high end one at that.. I went from a nice TS-850 to my Omni VI and the difference was night and day.. I liked my 850 but it soon became like listening to a cement mixer running when you got used to the superior rx on the Ten Tec.
Its simply amazing when the s meter only moves when a signal comes in (you would think the radio had no antenna its so quiet when noone is talking, no constant annoying drone like most rice radios, makes you want to toss them out of a window!). Your comments demonstrate that you are interested in pushing buttons instead of appreciating a fine rx for what it is. Try sitting in front of a high end Ten Tec (Omni V,VI, VI+, Corsair II, Orion etc..) and see what its like before commenting. I've had them all and nothing completely satisfies me, but the Ten Tecs come darn close as the high end radios have the legendary RX we've come to expect from TN.
Feel free to comment back as everyone, I am sure is laughing and pointing at you (behind your back):-p . 73 N2ZD
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Apples and Oranges...
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by K5XS on March 15, 2004
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I've had my share of most everything, and dealt with most radio brands on the market over the past 36 years.
I think the Yaesu, Kenwood, and Icom stuff is generally very good. I've had two issues in my time: A real dog of a Yaesu design problem (FT-707 in the very early 80s) and some serious supportability problems with all three brands.
As to perfromance, I doubt I can really tell the difference in performance among many of them compared to my Omni VI+ in my rural setting with slight line noise and very little QRM.
But...I've dealt with the service departments of Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, and Ten Tec, and the race isn't even close. Whenever I have called Ten Tec, I've gotten a real human who knows what he's talking about. On the rare occasions I have needed to send in a rig for maintenance, they are fast, thorough, and inexpensive. And there are smnall touches, like freebie little things (mic guards, small hardware, etc.) that I've never gotten from the others. And I will confess I'm a sucker for the hand-written notes on the bottom of the invoices that say "73, Paul" from their service manager.
My next rig will be an Orion. I don't need one, but I want to help keep Ten Tec in business and I like a new toy now and again. (But the Omni will stay right here too.)
And I'll also predict at least one of the big three (Kenwood, Icom, and Yaesu) will be out of the amateur radio market within a few years. I don't think Ten Tec will be.
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Apples and Oranges...Bells and whistles
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by K9DI on March 17, 2004
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Hell folks,
Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Patriot here. I read the article and the comments that followed it with great interest and I couldn't resist commenting as I think I have a bit of a different perspective on what is and isn't needed to operate ham radio compared to the other commenters.
Bells and whistles are NOT the end all and be all of what makes a rig a good (or great) one or a stinky pig. For example, I used to own an IC706MkII, I traded it for a TS520 with a 500Hz cw filter. I am in HOG heaven. Why, you might ask, therein lies a tale. I am visually impaired and the layers and layers of menus on the 706 just plain drove me nuts. I love the fact that the 520 has no menus!! It has a built in pwr supply and with tube finals it is a little more forgiving if the SRW isn't exactly perfect. I liked the 520 so much that when a local ham was selling his 820s I snapped it up and gained s digital display (not really needed, but nice to have) and 160M. I do admit to owning a couple of rigs with some fancy bells and whistles, my Elecraft K2 for instance. Yes it has menus, but they are mostly set and forget, and the filtering in the rig is just plain out of this world. My newest baby is also an Elecraft, KX1 #458 to be exact (thanks for building it for me Lloyd {K3ESE}!!). Why does the KX1 have myself and most other visually impaired ham ops drooling. The drooling is caused by the full CW announciation offered by the KX1. Wayne Burdick admitted that this feature was originally targeted at fully sighte ops that might be in bad lighting conditions while out hiking, or for eyes free operating in a mobile situation. When the KX1 was announced alot of us visually impaired ops wept with joy and CHEERED!! Elecraft has taken a leading role in providing accassibility for blind/disabled ops with a rig that is fully accesible to a totally blind or partially sighted op right out of the box with no modifications needed!! Also, ocming soon will be a software (I think) tweak that will add CW announciation capability to the KRC2 which, when coupled with a K2, will make the K2 a fully accesible rig for visually impaired ops My hat is off to Eric, Wayne and the rest of the crew at Elecraft.
To sum up, not everyone's idea of the perfect Bells and whistles/rig combo will be the same, and THANK GOD our hobby/service is big enough to hold everyone who is interested in joining us and enjoying it.
Vy 73
de
Wayne K9DI
k9di at k9di dot org
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RE: Apples and Oranges... Roofing Filters
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by W1AEL on March 18, 2004
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I've seen some posts that seem to be confused about just what a roofing filter is, and I'll try to clear up the topic.
Conventionally, receiver designers reserve the term "roofing filter" for the first filter in the first IF. The RF preselector is NOT a roofing filter. A preselector should keep strong out-of-band signals from degrading reception. This is particularly useful for those near an HF broadcasting station. The distinct task of the roofing filter is to prevent strong signals outside of the passband (but still in the ham band) from affecting the AGC or causing spurious responses. A high Q loop antenna, for instance, serves as a preselector, but it does not do the roofing filter's job. Fairly wide roofing filters serve the needs of casual amateur operation, but DXers and contesters need appropriately narrow ones to prevent problems from strong signals just outside the passband of the desired one.
Hope this helps. 73, Allan, W1AEL.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by W3DCG on March 18, 2004
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"Oh the old TenTec's anonymous crowd!"
Anonymous?
What? Huh?
Well, now I'm "...confused to begin with."
How, ever, in my wildest dreams, anyone could be confused by the simplicity of something as basic as an Argonaut V, is beyond my comprehension.
But not as beyond my comprehension, as the meaning of,
"Oh the old TenTec's anonymous crowd!"
Hey IV, what IS the meaning of that statement? You've never been one to mince words before, why now?
Nothing against JA radios, I love them too- but for the life of me, I do not understand, for radios that cost over 2 thousand dollars, why do they sound choppy at best, in Full Break In mode? Why does an eBay under 400 dollar used Triton 4 or Omni D, or Corsair, or Argonaut or Arogosy, or anything Ten Tec knock the socks off any JA radio costing multiple hundreds of dollars more?
Except for Kenwoods seem to do a decent fast switching job, actually have respectable high speed QSK keying characteristics.
I believe there is engineering excellence here, as evidenced by Elcraft, Ten Tec, SGC.
And even die hard, fundamentalist Ten Tec lunatic fanatics are generally willing to admit nolo contender when it comes to manufacturing fit and finish against JA.
OK- I concede, I'd have steep reservations about lugging an Argo V around in my back pack, trapesing about in the great outdoors. If I were doing that, I'd go JA for sure! With the exception of the K1. Or SGC 2020. But, for all the ruggedness of the 2020, there exists several JA equivalents that has more options- such as 6 meters, option of 100W, not only 20W, for the same price.
Why not then, K2/100? Because, after painstakingly assembling it, I'd be too afraid of breaking it out in the field. Plus a K2100 costs a lot more, especially when you factor in whatever your own personal labor rate should be.
So again, there is engineering excellence here- and how Yaesu can afford to off-load 897s for 700 dollars is beyond me. But, they make it up in options, after the sale, and also- it's a long range goal, it's called Dumping, or buying the majority of a market share, with a long-range eye towards profit, once the majority of the market is owned. They actually take a loss for a few years, gain market share, like what occured with the Television market. Or, they come out with an 897D, which costs a bit more, but actually a skosh less, than the cost of an 897 non D model with the TCXO option. The 897D comes with TCXO, however, it's the TCXO-2, not the TCXO-4, so actually, the 897 non D with the optional TCXO-4 is better than the 897D.
All tolled, it's about the same deal. They make up for the loss, by selling OPTIONS, after they've gained a hefty, but calculated, amount of market share.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by KT0DD on March 18, 2004
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I never did understand the fit & finish arguments of TT vs. JA rigs. The JA rigs always looked "Plastic", whereas TT rigs had the "Solid Metal" look to me. I prefer metal to plastic anyday. 73.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by K5XS on March 20, 2004
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I agree with the "plastic-y" feel of the JA rigs, but (even as a devout T-T fan), the metal construction is diminished by weaknesses. The knobs on my T-T don't turn as smoothly, and the panels are--to my thinking, anyway--not as tightly joined as on the JA rigs.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by N8FVJ on March 21, 2004
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I am a 'stickler' when it comes to receiver performance. Back when TEN TEC radios would run circles around the foreign radios, they almost went broke! So yes, looks & 'hipe' does sell.
I owned an OMNI V that is one good receiver. As for myself, I lean more towards performance & good functioning features. Good looks does not mean a thing to me. Present radio is the FT-100D due to a good receiver & 6 meters in one box. 6 meters is my favorite band & I like simple ham shacks.
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Apples and Oranges...
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by WA2JJH on March 22, 2004
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Good artical. We often do go by looks rather than performance. I have a ts-850SAT and an old Drake TR-7
The TR-7 uses high level mixing and has no real CPU as we know it. The receiver is quiter period.
I won a mil. spec Harris rig on ebay. Not even pass band tuning in it. I can hardly wait to see how it performs.
My FT-100D does it all, but the HF RX is awfull.
Now we have that ICOM 7800 for $10,000 bux. It sure looks nice. Not for me. I was talking to a ham on 20M.
He is on the waiting list for the 7800. I told him I would love to hear how it sounds. He heard about my Harris for 1/10th the cost, he said he wants to hear what it sounds like.
I guess a ham that can buy a 7800, will buy a Harris cuase he has the cash!
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
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by KD4E on May 10, 2004
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RE: Apples and Oranges...
Sure would like to acquire the info for this mod!
Anyone get it before it dropped off the mods.dk site?
Or was there a typo and it was for a different rig?
Tnx! & 73, doc kd4e at arrl dot net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is a great mod for the FT-847 I would like to share with the readers that decreases the noise floor on the reciever.
It makes the reciever sound like a completely new radio.
It involves swaping out a few cheap and "noisy" diodes inside the radio to Shottky BAT85 low noise diodes.
700k PDF file
http://80.162.141.166/mods.dk/downloads/DG2IAQ_Modification_Sheet_YAESU_FT-847.pdf
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