When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
Charles (KC8VWM)
on
March 23, 2004
View comments about this article!
This topic of discussion deals with legal issues pertaining to the recording, disclosing, and replaying of tape and other electronically recorded Amateur Radio signals.
THE WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS INTERCEPTION AND INTERCEPTION OF ORAL COMMUNICATIONS SECTION 705 (47 USCA 605) states that it is unlawful to disclose the content of radio transmissions overheard unless they are amateur radio traffic, broadcasts to the public or distress calls. It is unlawful under this section to use traffic monitored for personal gain.
Source:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/pIch119.html
While it is not illegal under this section to openly discuss details of a conversation with a third party that you overheard on Amateur radio frequencies, you are prohibited from using that same information for the intended purpose of personal gain.
"Personal Gain" is widely interpreted by lawmakers and this often includes related commercial interests.
One example might include a tow truck operator going to police calls heard over a scanner if a response has not yet been requested, or a taxicab driver using a scanner to listen to a competitors dispatcher calls. The taxi cab driver would race ahead and pick up those passengers before the other company's taxis would arrive at the call.
Another example, one might intend on using a persons recorded conversation from a radio communication from a local amateur radio repeater on a ham radio Internet website that charges subscriptions to hear these recordings. (Example: A conversation recorded involving a ham operator and an astronaut in space -- or similarly, a big on-air heated discussion that happened down on 75-meters a week ago etc... -- real audio format etc.)
While most may feel it might be appropriate in the first example and not appropriate in the second example, are there actually any laws that define these two instances -- or are all such recordings treated equally under the law despite the content involved?
One could argue in that by using a persons recorded conversation from amateur radio on an Internet website, this could be intended to further enhance that Internet website to attract more users to it for the purpose of personal or commercial gain.
When amateur radio transmissions are illegally used in this context, the affected individual may be entitled to civil damages resulting from the illegal use of these and similar recorded radio transmissions.
-Questions related to this topic:
- Do you agree that civil damages should be in order? If so, when?
Or:
- Is there little or no control over how these recorded amateur signals are used by people?
- Are Amateur Radio signals legal to intercept and record without anyone's prior consent?
- Is it unlawful under this section to use Amateur Radio traffic monitored for personal gain -- Do you have an example?
- What do you think the term "personal gain" means? -- In your own words.
- Can you legally replay a recording of an earlier conversation heard on the air during your own transmission without a person's prior consent or knowledge?
The forum is now open for your discussion and thoughts on the topic!
"When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?"
73 KC8VWM
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by N6AJR on March 23, 2004
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The FCC states the only time one can get $ while doing ham radio is with a teacher/ instructor etc. teaching ham radio as part of their ciriculum. Other than that it is illegal to use the radio for $.
I guess you could make " purpose recorded tapes" or cd for sale as part of a training system, but not legally off the air, only simulated off the air.
ARRL does have some on air recordings on some of their tapes, but I don't know if they are off air, I think recorded after the fact for publishing.
If you want to make money off of the ham radio hobby, make and sell a logging program, a dipole antenna, some type of patch cable for Icoms to computer, start a ham related web site..or such.
Interesting topic.
73 tom N6AJR
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by N6AJR on March 23, 2004
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Second thought.. when reporting an illegal transgression on the air Riley says to make an audio tape of it and send it in as proof.. since he gets paid to do his thing is he breaking his own law??
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by NA4IT on March 23, 2004
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"beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds..."beep"...10 seconds...
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AA4PB on March 23, 2004
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As I recall, the Communications Act does not apply to the interception of Amateur Radio signals. The thing about Amateurs not being paid for their services applies to the Amateur operator, not a 3rd party who might intercept the communications and somehow benefit from that.
There might be some other laws that apply based on the content. For example, if the transmitted material were copyrighted you might be able to go after someone who intercepted, duplicated, and distributed it.
Basically however you shouldn't transmit anything via Amateur Radio that you don't want recorded or made public.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KG4RUL on March 23, 2004
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Beep...Does...Beep...not...Beep...apply...Beep...here..Beep....
The "Beep" HAS TO be audible to the one whose voice is being recorded to inform that person a recording IS being made. Unless you are running a duplex circuit, this requirement could not be met.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by N3QT on March 23, 2004
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"...you shouldn't transmit anything via Amateur Radio that you don't want recorded or made public. (AA4PB)".
IMHO, I concur.
I consider my "transmissions" to be like air. Everyone can inhail it.
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. hi hi hi.
~~
N3QT
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KA4KOE on March 23, 2004
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Charles:
Its good to see your name at the top of an article! Great!
Sincerely
PHILIP
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K2WH on March 23, 2004
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This begs the question, has or is KC8VWM up to no good or did he do something that has put him in legal trouble?
Other than that, I regularly record amateur radio transmissions off the air directly to CD for archiving and historical purposes especially DXpeditions. I even email audio segments to the DXpeditions for which they are grateful. If you go to the James Millen Memorial Station site, you can hear a live off the air recording (AM) I submitted to them from the James Millen station celebration.
I have CD recordings of my own rare DX contacts going back 5 years. More amateurs should do this. If you have a computer, sound card and an interface for digital transmissions, you can record on air audio directly to your hard disk.
As to the question, profiting from recordings, I can't understand why anyone would or could do that.
K2WH
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K2WH on March 23, 2004
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Sorry, the website is:
http://www.qsl.net/jms/Articles/w1hrx2001.html
K2WH
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K1CJS on March 23, 2004
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"Beep...Does...Beep...not...Beep...apply...Beep...here..Beep....
The "Beep" HAS TO be audible to the one whose voice is being recorded to inform that person a recording IS being made. Unless you are running a duplex circuit, this requirement could not be met."
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but I believe you have radio mixed up with telephone, in other words 'wire' communication. If not, how do you transmit a beep to a shortwave or broadcast station to let them know they are being recorded? Same idea......
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by WI2Q on March 23, 2004
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This legal/not legal misunderstanding has been the reason manufacturers make their recorders on their new trancievers useless for this purpose. All you can do is record your own voice on their radios' digital recorder to play back over the air.... Yes, it will record off the air, but you can't transmit it. I was very dissapointed at that feature. I would have liked to have had the ability to play a recording back over the air for the ham who asks for this help in setting up their audio. This is a common practice with audio tape recorders and very often sound card recordings. I'm waiting for the "mod" on the pro's and the ts2000 to do just that.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K2WH on March 23, 2004
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KI2Q:
"I would have liked to have had the ability to play a recording back over the air for the ham who asks for this help in setting up their audio. This is a common practice with audio tape recorders and very often sound card recordings."
I agree, the practice of on the air playback is common but I think it is getting way too common.
There are some hams that feel it necessary to replay the audio of a station they are working right after the first exchange without prior permission. The playbacks seem to be done as a normal function of their ham station as though the other amateur is auditioning for something.
Most of the "Playback" activity I have heard originates from the HiFi crowd. Personnally, I find it childish, and it adds unnecessary pollution to the airwaves. The station on the other end doesn't need it to "Tailor" his audio on the air because he probably doesn't care anyway. Besides, if he wanted to hear himself, all he has to do is listen on a seperate receiver that most of us have while transmitting into a dummy load.
K2WH
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KE4MOB on March 23, 2004
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Question is: How would a person making the transmission claim damages if A) the transmission has no expectation of privacy and B) they received no compensation for it?
It's sort of like picking up things out of a person's trash on the curb, taking it to the flea market and reselling it.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by W5HTW on March 23, 2004
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Another opinion from someone who is not a lawyer ... So I shall mentally browse my thoughts on this ...
Example: During Field Day the local TV station visits your site, and shoots video of you operating the radio. Or perhaps during a real emergency. They play it back on the 5 PM news. That is not pecuniary interest; that is news, even though the program is paid for by advertising and is an income producer for the tv station.
Could you legitimately make a recording of a ham radio contact, and include it on a CD you were selling for profit, in helping others understand ham radio? Yes, I believe you could. Recordings have been made of contacts via satellite and have been used in promotional items, that are sold.
"Beep, beep?" You do not have to provide a beep on the telephone when you are recording the conversation. All you have to do is advise the other party, by voice, that the conversation is being recorded and you only need do so once, prior to recording. In fact, if you call a radio station's request line, talk line, or news line, the law reads you do not even have to be advised you are being recorded if you could "reasonably expect to be recorded" based upon the place you are calling. And the telemarketers record your conversations all the time, though they do ask your permission.
Back to ham radio. Ham radio conversations have zero protection for privacy. So now the remaining question is how about pecuniary interest? The rules are changing, of course, for once upon a time it would have been very illegal to use a ham repeater to call the pizza place and order dinner, but that is accepted now. I would interpret the restriction to mean you can not actively use ham radio for the purpose of earning money. However, if you use ham radio to have a conversation, and you record that conversation, then use it in a promotional CD, the primary use of ham radio was to have the conversation.
Can you write a book about ham radio and sell it? Of course. Can you include in your book a transcript of a radio conversation you really had? Of course. That is a "paper recording."
Can the ARRL use real radio recordings in their for-sale materials? Yes, I believe they can and do. I believe the restriction would be if the conversation was staged on the air solely for the purpose of making the recording. Then the primary goal becomes pecuniary interest. Where the primary goal is radio operating, I doubt it applies.
Enough wandering!
Ed
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AD7DB on March 23, 2004
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>Could you legitimately make a recording of a
>ham radio contact, and include it on a CD
>you were selling for profit, in helping
>others understand ham radio? Yes, I believe
>you could. Recordings have been made of
>contacts via satellite and have been used
>in promotional items, that are sold.
The Gordon West theory tapes I used years ago had a few spots of actual QSOs. Space Shuttle communications, general ragchewing, sounds of AMTOR, etc. I think they were used very effectively and added some interest to the tapes beyond the droll question/answers.
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KD7ZRO on March 23, 2004
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As I recall, it is illegal to use ham radio for personal gain. I, however, disagree. I use ham radio to listen and talk, to me that is my personal gain.
the term Personal Gain is very broad indeed,
Rod KD7ZRO
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KE4MOB on March 23, 2004
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"It is illegal to use ham radio for personal gain."
That needs to be clarified. I'm sure Bob Heil, Buck Rogers, Gordon West, et. al. would have problems with it. After all, they are hams who make a living off of ham radio.
The corrected version should be "It is illegal to receive compensation for the transmission of amateur radio communications."
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KA3RFE on March 23, 2004
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This issue has been clarified by the FCC in the past. Amateur radio transmissions are not subject to any expectation of privacy at any time. The "personal gain" mentioned refers to transmissions of the protected services, not to ham radio. The section that mentions ham radio is there in order to exempt amateur radio from the prohibitions. It takes some careful reading, but that is the gist of that particular section.
"Beeps" have been done away with for years. The requirement is now just to notify the party that they may be monitored. And those beeps were for telephone, not radio.
It never ceases to amaze me the jots and tittles people try to apply to rules and regulations that are simply not there.
73, Pete KA3RFE
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by G0GQK on March 23, 2004
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What on earth has this subject to do with amateur radio ? Taxis? Fire engines ? Police ? Scanners?
There is nothing wrong in recording the conversation of an amateur radio contact and re-broadcasting it back, as long as it is announced by the station re-broadcasting who the station is. Amateurs have been doing this for years !
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by AJ3U on March 23, 2004
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Come on guys. So, if I understand correctly, some of you believe that the recorded Amateur QSO's that are available for replay on many websites (including the ARRL website), in museums with Amateur Radio displays, instructional videos about Amateur Radio, and countless other places are illegal?
Let's use a little common sense here.
A.J. Farmer
AJ3U
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by AC0X on March 23, 2004
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Oh my dear Gahdenheven....
Wasn't this stuff resolved years ago with the "ordering a pizza over the repeater" arguments?
Pleeeez.. what's the matter guys, getting bored of the code/no code argument, so we have to come up with another reason to create a controversy?
Jeeeez......
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by AC0X on March 23, 2004
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Oh my dear Gahdenheven....
Wasn't this stuff resolved years ago with the "ordering a pizza over the repeater" arguments?
Pleeeez.. what's the matter guys, getting bored of the code/no code argument, so we have to come up with another reason to create a controversy?
Jeeeez......
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K6LO on March 23, 2004
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Dittos. You can only order Pizza on CW. ; ) Luke
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AA4PB on March 23, 2004
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I think people misunderstand the issue of making money via ham radio. If I use a phone patch or another ham to call in a pizza order for me that is legal. If on the other hand, Pizza Hut sets up a ham rig for the purpose of taking pizza orders from hams then the control operator of that station is violating the rules.
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by N9CYS on March 23, 2004
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Yaaawwwwwwnnnnn....the bands must be dead, huh?
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KG4VGH on March 23, 2004
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You are correct K1cjs.....and a step further......If you call someone and record the call....they must be made aware of the recording ....However.....should someone call you and you record....no such statement is needed.....
All of my incoming calls have been taped, for years....since I started have major problems with an EX...
always a joy to me when they ask if I mind if they record our conversation....I tell them....not if you don't mind me recording you.....silence and click
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KC8VWM on March 23, 2004
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>>>However, if you use ham radio to have a conversation, and you record that conversation, then use it in a promotional CD, the primary use of ham radio was to have the conversation. <<<
The FCC Rules covers some of the prohibited uses of Amateur Radio frequencies.
Basically, you cannot use ham radio to further any business purpose whether profit or not profit, directly or indirectly.
>>>>I believe the restriction would be if the conversation was staged on the air solely for the purpose of making the recording. <<<<
Making a promotional CD for distribution would be considered an indirect business purpose and could be considered contrary to the FCC rules.
>>>>The playbacks seem to be done as a normal function of their ham station as though the other amateur is auditioning for something. Most of the "Playback" activity I have heard originates from the HiFi crowd.<<<<
PART 97 Sec. 97.113 Prohibited Transmissions.
(f) No amateur station, except an auxiliary, repeater, or space station, may automatically retransmit the radio signals of another amateur
station.
>>>As I recall, it is illegal to use ham radio for personal gain. I, however, disagree. I use ham radio to listen and talk, to me that is my personal gain. <<<
Good point! This is precisely why this article was written.
While space does not permit me to quote every point made here, they are many other comments in this forum that provide excellent "food for thought."
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KC8VWM on March 23, 2004
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>>>There is nothing wrong in recording the conversation of an amateur radio contact and re-broadcasting it back, as long as it is announced by the station re-broadcasting who the station is.<<<
I have to disagree. This practice seems to have been prohibited by FCC rules for some time now.
>>>Wasn't this stuff resolved years ago with the "ordering a pizza over the repeater" arguments? <<<
This is not the same topic of discussion, however thanks for your input.
>>>>As I recall, the Communications Act does not apply to the interception of Amateur Radio signals. The thing about Amateurs not being paid for their services applies to the Amateur operator, not a 3rd party who might intercept the communications and somehow benefit from that.
There might be some other laws that apply based on the content. For example, if the transmitted material were copyrighted you might be able to go after someone who intercepted, duplicated, and distributed it. >>>>
Similar Comment:
>>>Riley says to make an audio tape of it and send it in as proof.. since he gets paid to do his thing is
he breaking his own law?? <<<
If the material is copyrighted, you may not be permitted to intercepted, duplicate, and distribute that recording.
Additionally, I would like to point out that at the beginning of certain Amateur Radio news reports on Amateur Radio frequencies, they read a disclaimer indicating that it is "copyrighted" and may not be reproduced without permission.
Query: If I "copyrighted" my Amateur radio voice transmissions, would this insure my signals are not recieved, recorded and distributed by others?
I appreciate all your input on this forum discussion.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AA4PB on March 23, 2004
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All original work is automatically copyrighted. Filing a copyright and placing notice on the work entitles you to twice your losses if someone duplicates it. Otherwise you are only entitled to your acutal losses. Filing the official paperwork also makes it much easier to prove that it belongs to you.
It might be rather difficult to prove financial loss from someone recording and duplicating your normal conversations over ham radio.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KA3RFE on March 23, 2004
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WVM:
You're incorrect regarding business communications A ham may not use ham radio transmissions to further his own, or his employer's business interests. You're thinking about the older 97.113 rule which has been re-written and in effect for quite some time now.
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by W7KEW on March 24, 2004
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The recording of Amateur Radio or Citizen Band transmissions is always legal. There is no privacy provision to those type of transmissions. Also any government radio transmission that is not encrypted is also legal to listen to and record and relay.
The only time you will run into problems when trying to record cell phone and cordless phone transmissions or private digital transmissions.
If a radio signal is copyrighted like broadcasting then you can record and play back that copyrighted broadcast for your own private use as much as you want.
The only time you will have copyright problems could be broadcasted copyrighted material or private radio systems that you distribute to others that are not parties to the broadcast, then you will have legal problems.
See
http://www.afn.org/~jlr/gass2.txt
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KE2IV on March 24, 2004
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First question:
What does most of this poster's queries have to do with Ham Radio (err...this is still eHam, I think)?
Second:
What is the premise of the query?
Recordation of any transmission, regardless of media, is fully legal. It is the subsequent re-transmission or broadcast (i.e. dissemination) that may or may not be legal. This is the gist of the case regarding web-based music sharing!
Is that where this poster is coming from?
Third:
Since by definition, AR operator's cannot "profit" from their radio activities they have no "copyright" protections regarding their communications within the service.
So, no, you cannot "charge" the commercial networks because you spoke to a ham in space and recorded it!
Not to say you can't try. But remember, both Uncle FCC and Uncle IRS may then decide to "talk" to you about it.
Fourth:
I hope you are 1L. Because if you are beyond first year then you're not doing well in law school!
73 (I hope),
KE2IV
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KC8VWM on March 24, 2004
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>>>You're incorrect regarding business communications A ham may not use ham radio transmissions to further his own, or his employer's business interests. <<<
Hi Pete,
I thought I said that. ?
73
Charles
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KC8VWM on March 24, 2004
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>>>First question:
What does most of this poster's queries have to do with Ham Radio (err...this is still eHam, I think)? <<<
It has to do with the legalities of intercepting, recording and distributing Amateur Radio signals. This is within the context of Amateur Radio operations.
>>>Second:
What is the premise of the query?
Recordation of any transmission, regardless of media, is fully legal. <<<
Is it fully legal? ...I will refer to Napster as the prime example of what occurs when one records & distributes internet media that is in the so called "public domain" - Similarly, recording a conversation between an Astronaut and ham is "assumed" to be free and is ditributed in the public domain.
>>>Third:
Since by definition, AR operator's cannot "profit" from their radio activities they have no "copyright" protections regarding their communications within the service. <<<
Therefore, if one conducts an Amateur Related News service and provides information on how to "donate" money for that particular service to continue, are they then "directly or indirectly" using ham radio transmissions to further their own, or another individuals business interests?
>>>Fourth:
I hope you are 1L. Because if you are beyond first year then you're not doing well in law school! <<<
I am not a lawyer and don't pretend to play one on TV either. :)
The fact is that there seems to be many grey areas in the recording and distribution of Amateur Radio transmissions.
I recognize that we are not Lawyers here. This forum is however intended as an open dialogue for discussing this matter as it pertains to Amateur radio.
Thank you for your most excellent comments.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KF4VGX on March 24, 2004
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I was given a free pizza once. The guy didn't hear the proper address over his radio ,so he wound up at my front door.
Needless to say it was a pepperoni pizza so I took it :).
Whats this have to do with ham radio? The pizza delivery guy was a ham operator,we had a nice conversation while eating someone else's pizza.
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by K1CJS on March 24, 2004
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If some of you older hams remember, when repeaters were first thought of and used, the FCC required the repeater owner to record all of the conversations over their repeater. As a matter of fact, I believe that although it is no longer required, the repeater owner can still do so to protect themselves and their license.
I also believe that the repeater owner doesn't have to let anyone know about the recordings either. This puts a different twist on the whole recording controversy--namely the FCC allowing recording of ham radio transmissions.
Chris J. Smith, K1CJS
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K4CMD on March 24, 2004
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Should we allow people who won't even post their name in their profile to post articles on eham?
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by X-WB1AUW on March 24, 2004
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If a tree falls in the woods (and hits your antenna), does it make a sound ?
If hams have a religious meeting on the air, and they “speak in tongues”, do they break the "no ciphers rule"?
Bob
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KB9SJZ on March 24, 2004
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So does this mean that I can not have a Vox tape recorder recording communations that are being done on my repeater, when I am at work and maybe away from my 2 meter radio. This would be used for my benefit only, to make sure that the ones using my 2 meter repeater do not break the FCC rules. Thank goodness I don't have a lot of traffic right now, but maybe will when I have the new repeater up on the air soon. This will replace a early 1970 repeater, that used to belong to someone else.
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What about FM Radio, and reselling, or ......
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by LFX on March 25, 2004
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What about regular radio. I have been trying find somewhere information on this. I want to record a regular FM station talk radio show, edit and take out commercials and pass to friends. I do this for my personal archieve, but someone actually told me I should sell them on ebay for a small fee, or just list then as free and ask for the cost of the cd and shipping, so I would not be making any personal gain.
Thing is, isn't there some issues here with copy right? Or since it is publically broadcasted radio is this not a problem? Yes I would like to share this with others, and I am not looking to run a business doing it but I don't want to end up in court of fined or something.
Thanks, LFX
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Clear up a coupla things....
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by WA4MJF on March 25, 2004
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in this thread.
Early on it was stated that only teachers
may be paid for operating ham radio. However,
the ops at a club station that broadcasts
at least 40 hours a week of scheduled transmissions
on at least five HF bands (simultanesously at the
same time)may also be compensated. So there
are two types of ops that may be paid to operate
ham radio.
As to the radios that record and won't retransmit,
the FCC put an end to those during the war
between BARF and the International Phone Bypass
Nets. One of the tactics was to record someone,
say Herbie of BARF and replay the recording over
and over again.
Even after a treaty was signed and BARF hangs
on 313 and the Bypass Nets on 300, the restriction
was kept.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AE6IP on March 25, 2004
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> Recordation of any transmission, regardless of
> media, is fully legal. It is the subsequent re-
> transmission or broadcast (i.e. dissemination) that
> may or may not be legal. This is the gist of the
> case regarding web-based music sharing!
This is incorrect, at least in the US. There are several specific interceptions that are proscribed by US Federal Law. If follows that if the interception of a transmission is illegal, than recording the interception is also illegal. (There's case law, to do with FBI overstepping its authority on wire-taps.)
> Since by definition, AR operator's cannot "profit"
> from their radio activities they have no "copyright"
> protections regarding their communications within
> the service.
This is also incorrect, at least as far as its reasoning. Copyright is independent of intended use of the copyrighted material. A non-profit, for example, can copyright its material, to prevent it from being used in ways the non-profit deems inappropriate.
However, there is case law that indicates that ordinary speech doesn't qualify as a 'work' under the copyright laws, and further, amateur communication comes with no expectation of privacy. Thus, unless the amateur's transmission qualifies as a "work", it does not benefit from copyright. However, at least one of the forms of legal amateur broadcase, "bulletins of interest" qualifies as a "work" and is subject to copyright -- evene if the originating source is a non-profit.
> So, no, you cannot "charge" the commercial networks
> because you spoke to a ham in space and recorded it!
Ah, now that's an interesting grey area. You are specifically prohibited from any retransmission of communications from the shuttle, unless permission is granted by NASA, but not, oddly enough, from other space stations.
Further, the regs specify that you may not transmit for compensation or with the expectation of compensation, but they do not specify that you may not be later compensated for a recording that was made with no expectation of compensation. Clearly, a newsworthy recording could be sold to a news outlet for rebroadcast by that outlet, but it is not clear whether other recordings could. (Anyone know any case law on this?)
> Not to say you can't try. But remember, both Uncle
> FCC and Uncle IRS may then decide to "talk" to you
> about it.
The IRS's only interest is that you properly account for and pay taxes on any income. They don't care whether it's legal income or not.
> I hope you are 1L. Because if you are beyond first
> year then you're not doing well in law
IANAL
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by N8XD on March 26, 2004
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Recording of Amateur Radio signals is always legal...as is simply listening to them.
The transmissions in the amateur radio frequencies are considered public. Imagine how you would act if you were listening to a conversation in person (or even participating in that conversation). You have the same rights and responsibilities.
The only time ham radio cant be used to make money is during "transmission" (that's the category it falls under in part 97). But there is an exception for the non-regular sale of ham radio gear...you can transmit to do that!
Selling radio gear, charging someone to install an antenna, manufacturing radios, building custom circuits, practically anything can be done for money. Amateur radio is big business and it's all legal. Anyone can make money from participation in the hobby. -- just not for "transmitting".
--Keith (N8XD)
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K1CJS on March 26, 2004
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"Ah, now that's an interesting grey area. You are specifically prohibited from any retransmission of communications from the shuttle, unless permission is granted by NASA, but not, oddly enough, from other space stations."
Could that be because the shuttle is under the direct and sole control of NASA, but the International Space Station is not? The ISS is under the control of the member nations that built and maintain it--the rulings of the individual nations are not applicable unless all member nations agree to them.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by AE6IP on March 26, 2004
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> Could that be because the shuttle is under the
> direct and sole control of NASA, but the
> International Space Station is not?
Could be. anyone know if there was ever a restriction on skylab?
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by WB4QNG on March 26, 2004
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I do know a man that spent 3 years behind bars because of a recording off the air and it was off a CB. When Jessie Jackson was running for president. He was drunk and said when Jessie Jackson came to town he was going to shoot him. Whoever heard him called the FCC and they told them to tape it and send it to them. Somebody listen to it because in less than a week the secret service was hauling this guy away. They charged him with threatning a presidential canadate. He could have gotten life but they plea bargin it down to the three years. I wouldn't have believed it but I knew the guy and it was in the paper.
Terry
WB4QNG
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by WB2DCV on March 28, 2004
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The topic deals with recording 'radio signals'. That's a very broad category; however, I think most of the folks here are interested in amateur radio. So let's deal with that.
The basic fact is that, amateur radio transmissions are afforded NO privacy protection at all. (See 47 U.S.C. Sec. 605, commonly known as the 'secrecy provisions' of the Communications Act of 1934.)
The Electronic Commications Privacy Act, which amended and supplemented the Wiretap Act (18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510) is not applicable to amateur radio communications. Section 2510 applies to communications conducted over facilities provided by carriers or others engaged in interstate communications for hire.
Other commentators already have provided sage advice: We should conduct ourselves in such a manner that we wouldn't mind having our words broadcast on the evening news and attributed to us!
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by KC8VWM on March 28, 2004
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What about the playback of those same recorded signals? When is it appropriate and not appropriate?
The topic adresses that issue as well.
73
KC8VWM
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by VK2GWK on March 28, 2004
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All this splitting hairs over US Federal legislation does not prevent a "ham" in Faroffstan to record your interesting conversations and sell them in Hong Kong or where ever for his pecuniary personal gain.
Ham radio is international you know.....
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KC4ZGP on March 30, 2004
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This is a captalist country. If there's a buyer for it, sell it. For instance, if someone wants to buy your daughter, sell her.
Note: You shall not sell sons or pets.
Kraus
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by KC4ZGP on March 30, 2004
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If you're a father and your daughter marries, she changes her last name from your's to her husband's. Sounds like a property ownership change to me. Except in the former, you papa, get some cash. Say ten bucks.
Pay attention folks.
Kraus
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by W6TH on March 31, 2004
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Hello every one. I am selling my complete ham shack of my SP 600 Super Pro JX, my Collins 32V transmitter and my Johnson desktop amplifier. The going price is for $5000.00 and I will give a much lower price for payimg cash. A cash payment and no money orders or checks, I can let it go for a mere $2500.00. I can be reached at XXX XXXX, call collect.
Now one question: Is the 40 meter swap meet on 7240 in California legal or not? Well as I see it, ham radio "is" used for a profit. What say?
.:
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by W6TH on March 31, 2004
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Now for another question: Should this be recorded and then voiced on many other bands, will this be legal for the recording?
I have a few more of these happenings on the ham bands including recordings and the recordings are legal, as long as not used for broadcasting, lets say music or talk shows with advertisements.
It is perfectly ok to record a hams voice and others for testing purposes, etc. Also if you taped your son, daughter playing music and you want the other hams to hear the music, perfectly ok as long as you are not selling.
.:
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by W6MRR on April 2, 2004
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From the current ARRL FCC Rule Book 13th Edition, page 2-31 under "Retransmitting Radio Signals".
Quote: You must never record someone else's transmissions and play them back over the air without persmission 97.113(a)(4) End Quote.
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by WA2JJH on July 28, 2004
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Excellent artical.
Many of the post's answered much of this topic.
OK: Did you know in NYS you can record any thing on your phone without giving consent. Some other states are like that too. Some states you must worn the party at the other end before you record.
However just ask Linda Tripp about the law in D.C.!
Back to ham radio. Many rigs like the TS-850 have built in solid state recording. So it is legal.
I would assume when Hams have their audio recorded then played back to them, that is not third party.
I hear much of...I just spent 2 hours tweeking my DSP,equiliser,and carrier shift. Can you record me and play it back? I assume it legal. Liddy practice....depends on how some hams do this record/playback audio check.
Any time some OM offers to record my audio and play it back to me, I say yes.
Good subject and open to much feedback and more questions.
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RE: When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illeg
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by K8MHZ on January 24, 2005
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<OK: Did you know in NYS you can record any thing on your phone without giving consent. Some other states are like that too. Some states you must worn the party at the other end before you record.>
You may be confusing 'anything' with second-party recordings. Michigan has similar laws. The law states that if a recording is made of a wireline transmission (like phone) ONE party in the conversation must be aware of the recording. What that says is that you can record anything on the phone IF you are one of the people talking. You CAN'T record things on the phone in which you are not a part of. That is the restriction for private line conversation. Open line, like ham and CB radio have no restrictions for making recordings. Also, the radio portion of cordless phones have no expectation of privacy and as such may fall into the open line category.
Now here is something that I would like answered. The laws we are talking about forbid personal (like financial) gain from info heard on a scanner. Why then does the media not only use it, but actually rely on scanner traffic for their news? How do they get away with it? Do they have special provisions?
Thanks,
K8MHZ
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When is Recording Radio Signals Legal or Illegal?
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by WA6BFH on April 19, 2005
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It is good that these topics are brought to light, because without such attention no one will be aware of potential problems and pitfalls. Even in a recent article that I wrote on FCC Part 97, it is amazing how many bizarre reply comments were posted where lack of understanding was evident.
My point is that unless a person, even 20 or 30 years ago was and is familiar with everything that might be contained in the Congressional Federal Register (CFR), you simply don’t know what may be considered illegal under certain instances or situations. I recall at about the time of the ‘ordering a pizza’ argument, an FCC commissioner said that if looked at very technically within the law, it was illegal for the ARRL to have an assistance station operating at Ham conventions that would provide directions for getting to the convention. The idea being that in this example, the ARRL makes money from the convention, so they should not be using Amateur radio to thusly profit.
These days even well and far beyond what was then in the CFR we have to be aware of how such things may be looked upon as a considered threat to anti-terrorism!
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