BPL -- American Public Power Association
Don Rasmussen (WB8YQJ)
on
April 19, 2004
View comments about this article!
Quote from the American Public Power Association;
"APPA is concerned that incumbent broadband providers and others will exaggerate potential interference problems as a means of convincing the Commission to limit the effectiveness and efficiency of BPL."
Note the "and others" part. That is us -- ham radio ops. It seems that Amateur Radio operators are being lumped in with "incumbent broadband providers" as the Nemesis to APPA (Power Line Assn) and their current best friends, the FCC. That explains a lot about the hostile manner in which we are being treated. Don't think of yourself in the FCC's eyes as that emergency volunteer, we must seem more like that creature from the movie "Alien" to them.
APPA:
"The burden should be imposed on challengers to BPL to demonstrate interference in a fact-based, empirical proof. Further, to the extent that interference is demonstrated, there should be an attempt to accommodate BPL, even if it means that existing communications providers may have to share or transfer bandwidth."
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6514287496
As for the FCC?
Ed Thomas, the FCC's chief engineer; "Why is this thing a major calamity?"
See what is happening in Manassas, Va.
http://www.w4ovh.org/bplinfo.htm
Following note is from n8fk:
"I live in Manassas, Va. and have filed complaints." Total complaints filed by amateurs in Manassas is in excess of 250!!!
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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BPL - American Public Power Association
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by WB8YQJ on March 29, 2004
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BPL Reference: http://www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by W6VPS on April 19, 2004
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Big Company..big bucks..big business..big political clout..
It's all about money and power and that's the bottom line folks.
W6VPS
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by L1D on April 19, 2004
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Once those $$$ keep going out the the ROI stays at zero BPL will die. Tax payers won't stand for it.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N3HKN on April 19, 2004
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Why do we hide behind in-direct references to money. Simply put the words bribery and payoff are appropriate. These FCC types are too clever to accept anything more than a company pen while in office. However, once they are removed watch where they go for employment or look for that big interest free loan to build the mansion that expresses their social stature.
Just because these people do not use a gun it is still robbery yet we hide behind vague references to their crooked behavior. Yes, follow the money but look at the slime AFTER they leave "public" office!
Dick N3HKN
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by W3ULS on April 19, 2004
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Folks, it's not bribery driving this. Do you really think the FCC's chief engineer is taking under-the-table payments from the power industry? Or the Commissioners? Come on. Saying so in a public forum will not exactly endear the amateur radio community to FCC's top brass.
The driving force is politics. A month ago President Bush promised an audience in Florida that his Administration would be bringing broadband access to many more homes in America via power lines. Having reached the White House, this issue is unstoppable.
And don't think John Kerry will oppose Bush on this issue because of complaints from hams in Massachusetts!
The best hams will be able to do is to seek to mitigate the effects. Accusing FCC people of taking bribes will not help in achieving this goal.
73,
John, W3ULS
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N3OP on April 19, 2004
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L1D wrote:
Once those $$$ keep going out the the ROI stays at zero BPL will die. Tax payers won't stand for it.
Well, I think most taxpayers are too lazy and apathetic to complain about new taxes. A few will be vocal, but any viciousness will soon die off. And remember, the FCC will not let BPL fail due to lack of funds. They will institute their "unconstitutional" taxing power, and create a new tax on Internet service or on telephone service to subsidize BPL.
Reggie
www.n3op.com
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KE1MB on April 19, 2004
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If you key up your transmitter and it wipes out BPL then they will only notch out those frequencys even more. The upside is the more they notch us out, they are also getting out of our ham bands. There are so many people fighting this, between us and their compention I really cannot see this getting too far. I can wait for the time when military communication to aircraft is disrupted..
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N3XL on April 19, 2004
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First IRAQ and now a rush to BPL! I hope Kerry sides with us on this.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KA4KOE on April 19, 2004
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Kinda reminds me of the story of the King's new clothing...its painfully obvious to everyone except those that count.
My contacts say the NTIA report is due out any minute. If this doesn't go positively on our side, then we're doomed.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KT8K on April 19, 2004
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Does anyone know how susceptible BPL systems are or will be to interference from RF sources already in place? Customers will not like a service that is frequently inoperative or interrupted, and I would think that any kind of broadcast system will interfere with BPL. Antennas (at least, simple ones) receive as they transmit, don't they? In a worst case scenario (where, it appears, we are headed) will BPL still turn out to be unprofitable?
BPL is touted as being the best option for those too remote for cable installation to be profitable. So why is BPL going to be profitable, especially if it is likely to have reliability problems?
Lets hope BPL dies of its own weight, if it winds up fully implemented (a worst case situation), and proves to be as big a mistake as just about everything else coming out of Washington in this administration. Certainly little if any of it has the public good in mind (tho certain companies and already-rich individuals are making a killing).
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KG6AMW on April 19, 2004
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You have to compare BPL implementation with a similar situation involving a high tech company being taken public and making its owners wealthy. They don't want a bunch of hobbyists asking lots of questions and scaring off investors, greedy and stupid utilities and gullible municipalities. Yes, post your comments at the FCC on this matter and take any all opportunities to calmly express your concerns about BPL interference problems. Know this, these people are in it for money and nothing else.
KG6AMW
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GET REAL !
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by WPE9JRL on April 19, 2004
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In case you haven't noticed, the FCC Field Engineering/Monitoring was disassembled and trashed about 20 years ago.
The FCC is run by lawyers and paper-pushing bureacrats that have little interest in following up complaints from a bunch of amateurs.
Big Biz will prevail on this one no matter how much the law may be on "our side".
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RE: GET REAL !
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by KE6VG on April 19, 2004
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When did this discussion get political? It seems like we have a few Democrats around here who like getting in a few shots. Both Bush and Kerry made comments about high speed internet for all. Bush in a recent speach
"We ought to have universal, affordable access to broadband technology by the year 2007," said President Bush today in a speech primarily about home-ownership (Reuters). "And then we ought to make sure that as soon as possible thereafter consumers have plenty of choices..." the president added.
I really think neither of them know much about up and coming technology. They are just another couple of politicians promissing a "ham" at every dinner table.
Write those letters to the FCC and maybe your State Representative.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KD4LEI on April 19, 2004
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Don't count on it! Kerry will see this as a tax opportunity and he too will ignore our concerns.
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RE: GET REAL !
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by N3XL on April 19, 2004
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Heard author of Perfectly Legal talking on C-span yesterday. He points out that over past 30 years, many tax laws and other policies have been put in place favoring big corporations at the direct expense of the middle-class. Both political parties are at fault. The current BPL fiasco is one more example of policy run amuck, IMHO. I think the natives are getting restless.
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And if we interfere with BPL?
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by W2BLC on April 19, 2004
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Just waiting for the other shoe to fall. That's the one where a ham gets taken off the air due to interfering with BPL.
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RE: And if we interfere with BPL?
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by KD4LEI on April 19, 2004
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Can you say...
Lawsuit?
Of course, the big power companies will try to settle out of court or rangle this in a way to make us as amateur operator's look stupid.
It's sad if you tell me...
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA4ET on April 19, 2004
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APPA:
"The burden should be imposed on challengers to BPL to demonstrate interference in a fact-based, empirical proof. Further, to the extent that interference is demonstrated, there should be an attempt to accommodate BPL, even if it means that existing communications providers may have to share or transfer bandwidth."
Gee, they must not have read the FCC declaration. WE need to accomodate them,, get real. They are the ones provided no protection. They are the one that need, and have to accomodate US.
This is the hole problem with BPL,, We hear one thing, they say something else.
ITs all about money!! let be sure about this,, with all the undergroung untillites these days, how are they going to make it work anyway,, they will need to transmittd a very strong signal for anybody to hear it, and what about the comsumers equipment
There seems to be a how host of problems associated with BPL, that they seem to be overlooking. It all looks good on paper, but demographics, competition and interferance will bury BPL in the long run.
DAvid
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KG6AMW on April 19, 2004
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This is not about one particular political party. Look at the FCC commissioners; they come from both sides of the isle and they all support this. This is about a group of people who want to make lots of money at the expense of licensed spectrum users and the FCC who have chosen political expediency (total internet access for all at any cost) over protecting the spectrum they were given to regulate.
KG6AMW
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by K1CJS on April 19, 2004
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I agree, this is NOT about one political party, this is about the current administration. Bush promised high speed internet access in every house--and the FCC is going to do it, one way or another.
Don't look to Kerry to change this either. He's also looking for votes, and this is one of the safe issues--most people want internet access no matter how its done.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KB9YGD on April 19, 2004
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Well I Am against PLC/BPL & I Personaly Dont Exist Just To Render Public Service When The Bottom Falls Out. My Equipment Is For My Enjoyment Of Amatuer Radio.Its Allways The Ham Operators Fault When People Hear You On Their Telephone Or Stereo Or TV.If the FCC Wants To Do Something They Should See To It That All Consumer Electronic Devises Are manufactured Correctly,Sheilded,Bypass Caps & Inductors Ferrites,Etc.I Am Sick & Tired Of everything Being blamed On the Amatuer Radio Operators & The Way The FCC has Handled All This.Just Look At 40 Meters!We Dont Have Any Spectrum Now & They Want To Ruin The Little We Have!73 de KB9YGD.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KB9YGD on April 19, 2004
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Well I Am against PLC/BPL & I Personaly Dont Exist Just To Render Public Service When The Bottom Falls Out. My Equipment Is For My Enjoyment Of Amatuer Radio.Its Allways The Ham Operators Fault When People Hear You On Their Telephone Or Stereo Or TV.If the FCC Wants To Do Something They Should See To It That All Consumer Electronic Devises Are manufactured Correctly,Sheilded,Bypass Caps & Inductors Ferrites,Etc.I Am Sick & Tired Of everything Being blamed On the Amatuer Radio Operators & The Way The FCC has Handled All This.Just Look At 40 Meters!We Dont Have Any Spectrum Now & They Want To Ruin The Little We Have!73 de KB9YGD.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N5LB on April 19, 2004
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Keep filing well thought out and fact based comments with the Commission. There is nothing else to do in this case. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, bribes, or anything of the sort, in this case. Its money and political promises driving a technology that probably will not survive the market anyway. BPL still has to work, consistently, and be cheaper than DSL or cable, and be at least as fast. There are no facts to support the assumption that BPL will survive the marketplace with these requirments.
So calm down, get a grip, and use your computer to generate the necessary information to support the non-interference requirments of Part 15. Thats probably the best you can do. BPL will be implemented, period. Lets figure how to hold the manufacturers and power companies to their promises.
Oh, and read Part 15. Its really hard to be taken seriously if you make comments without any knowledge of the actual rules.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by K4JRB on April 19, 2004
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I agree its politics. Its the only reason why BPL would go on when the power companies and APPA know BPL creates interference.
WE hear the same old arguments about interference we heard 25 years ago from cable companies and 45 years ago from community antenna companies. However over time the FCC has put strict control on cable companies.
Over a dozen years ago my 2 meter packet blasted the movie channel for miles and only a call to the FCC got the engineer out to fix the problem. Over time this will happen to the power companies but since the majority of them have cut so much staff that they cannot cope with power line interference much less BPL. Look at the ARRL Web page and note the number of letters sent to power companies about power line noise.
Some fix the problem but some are on their third letter from the FCC and hope to ignore it.
The real problem is that some poor ham will blast TV and broadband for miles and the local cops will try to arrest him or her (remember its a two way street). Hams will get another black eye and the power company will go on business as usual.
Dave K4JRB
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by K5UJ on April 19, 2004
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The front page of today's New York Times (19 April) has a story reporting that a large number of dial-up internet users have no interest in broadband
access. The story is backed up with at least one Pew survey and may be useful in refuting the FCC notion that there is some sort of widespread mandate for extensive broadband service. It reports that in February the Pew Internet and American Life Project surveyed dial-up users and found that 60% were not interested in switching to broadband, roughly the same result as in a February 2003 survey. This would make it seem that the demand for broadband service has been exagerated.
The story also said many users were content with dial-up access, are not interested in the hassle and expense of making the switch (some dial-ups are very cheap--5 or 6 dollars/month), do not perform any high data demanding activities (large downloads, gaming, streaming audio/video etc.) and do not want to be
vulnerable to hacking and viruses due to being connected all the time, and object to being pushed by the industry into getting something they don't want.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by AE0Z on April 19, 2004
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The law in our side in this. We have the right-of-way. BPL has to avoid interfering with us, that spokesman for the APPA has it backward. However, this is the real world, and money talks. What should we do?
The worst thing that could happen for us would be for some ham-vigilante to deliberately interfere. We need to be wearing the white hat if we are going to prevail.
When you can show:
1) you have filed timely, accurate, politely worded reports about the interference to the BPL provider, the FCC, and local elected officials
2) if you have increased your transmitting power, you did so only because of BPL interference and all your neighbors can report that you have proactively dealt with any RFI problems with them...
then you will have a story to tell any judge or jury or more likely local TV or newspaper reporter that the BPL folks will not want heard, because David vs Goliath stories hurt public image, and so does press about vulnerabilities of BPL to interference. Either kind of publicity will hurt their bottom line, and, after all, money talks.
Howard Parks, AB9FH
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA4MJF on April 19, 2004
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Dick, you would think so, but I remember
when some in Gettysburg were selling
"preferred" callsigns for up to $1500.
This was in the 70's or early 80s.
73 de Ronnie
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N2LSJ on April 19, 2004
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Here in Penn Yan NY we now also have the BPL operating in a small "test" mode. It would appear that on the outside the owners of the BPL system want to make it work and not bother anyone. I am not against any "new" technoligy but I do not want to see our amateur frequencies destroyed so anyone can surf the web cheeply. There is a lot opf problems here in Penn Yan. We have lost the 10,12 and 15 meter bands to the BPL, in the test phase! All signals are 60 over...except the bottom of the cb band...big deal.
We were (opinion) sold down the pike here by the village of Penn Yan board, and the person(a ham kb2itn) who posted an article in the Wallstreet Journal saying there is no problem and there is a lot of negativity...this from a guy that makes money on selling internet service and cell phones.You decide who tells the truth. I sat in my car and could not copy anything on the 15 meter band in the area where they "fixed" the wire problems. It is terrable to think that the village electric company has such a shoddy system. It's always about the $$$$$
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by K1CJS on April 19, 2004
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Power lines will radiate the signals they are carrying, just like an antenna. Just remember, an antenna works both ways, radiating signals and picking up radiated signals. BPL around any transmitter will be a hit and miss affair, especially around those x hundred thousand watt broadcast stations, let alone our ham stations.
Let em set it up and put it into use. It'll be abandoned when the interference the power lines pick up affects BPL users. They'll just cancel their service, and BPL will finally die.
The only unpleasant side to this whole thing is that we'll all be forced to pick up the bill for the BPL technology--both having to subsidize having it set up and the final cost of the fiasco--through our electric bills.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA4MJF on April 19, 2004
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In line with K5UJ's post, I saw on FOX News
yesterday that 40% of I'net users have
high speed access. So if 60% don't
want it that means basicly the high speed
ISPs have to fight over the 40%.
I use ADSL because it is always on, contrary
to what my cable company claims about their
Internet service (RoadRunner). Whenever
the power fails (which is often), I have to
switch to my outside antenna. Bellsouth
my phone service and ADSL provider always
has a generator at the hut before the batteries
fail.
TWC admits this in their telephone service
ads in small print: When the power fails
you will not have phone service, much like
your cordless phone. Now who would want
to get a phone service like that!
I would think BPL would have the same result.
If you're active in ARES and/or RACES
this is NOT good.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KB8ASO on April 19, 2004
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Come on! How do you think the gov. types in DC become muli millionares on a 100-300,000 a year salery?
BPL was supposed to bring high speed internet access to rural customers. Yea right. If that is so then why are the trials in Cincinnati being conducted in Hyde Park ( an upscale densely populated neighbourhood )? To make the highest profit per square mile serviced. I doubt that BPL will ever get into the rural areas. Too much overhead too little profit.
Randy AB9GO
"Folks, it's not bribery driving this. Do you really think the FCC's chief engineer is taking under-the-table payments from the power industry? Or the Commissioners?
73,
John, W3ULS "
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RE: BPL How about 5Ghz
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by KB8ASO on April 19, 2004
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p.s. What ever happened to 5Ghz BPL? I had read that some company was working on this technology. This makes more sense if the techological issues can be worked out.
Randy AB9GO
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KT0DD on April 19, 2004
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On 4/19/2004 W3ULS wrote:
>"Folks, it's not bribery driving this. Do you really think the FCC's chief engineer is taking under-the-table payments from the power industry? Or the Commissioners? Come on. Saying so in a public forum will not exactly endear the amateur radio community to FCC's top brass."
You've got to be kidding...It's been years, if ever, since we had a goernment we could trust & that wasn't in bed with one special interest group or another. We are a 100% Capitalist society, not a democracy or a republic. While they may not be taking bribes outright, they can sure endear themselves into a nice cozy CEO position after they leave government office.
Headline from the 2009 Wall Street Journal-
" Former FCC chairman Michael Powell has been appointed as chairman & CEO of Homeplug BPL.
73. Todd
"The race is over, The RATS won."
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by W9LBB on April 19, 2004
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There's a flip side to this coin you know...
With hundreds of thousands of radio stations being interfered with by BPL leaking OUT of power lines, anyone stopped to consider that signals from them will also be leaking back INTO the lines? All those miles & miles of power line not only make a good transmitting antenna... they does a pretty fair job as a RECEIVING antenna too!
Sure, error checking and such in the BPL system will cure SOME of the data errors the ingress of signals causes... but the interference is gonna cause a whole LOT of problems for BPL operators & users.
The cure therefore is simple...
I suddenly have a GREAT incentive to resume work on my push pull 4-1000A transmitter, with the 4-400A modulators for 160 metre AM!!! I need that kind of juice to talk to my buddies 25 miles away when the band is closed!!!
I think the BPL folks have forgotten the old saying... When you mess with the Bull, you've gotta expect to get the HORN once in a while. Or is that... Don't mess with the Eagles unless you know DAMNED well how to fly!
Now... where did I put that Pole Pig???
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KF6JZC on April 19, 2004
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We have all heard the comments over and over about the interference and they are correct from what I know. One problem with BPL that I have not heard discussed or even evaluated is the problem with security on this medium.
I am not an expert in Nerwork technology but I do know enough from the little that I have studied about networking that the most secure network medium is one that uses fiber optic cable and encryption. Why? Because fiber optic cable radiates absolutly no signal that can be picked up from the outside of the cable. The least secure method is using any technology that can radiate a signal. BPL would have to be the worst system invented in this regard.
In todays problems with identity theft, who would want any of their private and supposedly secure communications sent using BPL technolgy? This actually is one of the problems with any wireless technology. You would need some very good security measures to ensure that unintended users do not have access to your private communications.
Any security measure that is used for BPL, can be also used by an unintended user with a radio that can 'listen' to that signal from the power lines.
Perhaps someone more in the know on this subject can shed some more light on this scary aspect of this technolgy.
BTW does this remind anyone of another problem that radio hobbiest had starting a few years ago, scanners and cell phones?
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by AB7R on April 19, 2004
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He may be today, but of course, that means tomorrow he'll have a totally different stand. :)
Couldn't resist!!
Greg
AB7R
BTW....Did you know he was in the Vietnam War? Just don't talk about it.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by AB7R on April 19, 2004
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(Regarding the John Kerry support comment somewhere above)
He may be today, but of course, that means tomorrow he'll have a totally different stand. :)
Couldn't resist!!
Greg
AB7R
BTW....Did you know he was in the Vietnam War? Just don't talk about it.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on April 19, 2004
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I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested that if BPL causes interference, noise and headaches to amateur radio operators and if ham radio operators keep writing stupid and emotional letters with threats in them, then the practical and vindictive solution, will be to take away most of the high frequency privileges from ham radio operators.
73 de
The Eham unpaid guest
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on April 19, 2004
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>>He may be today, but of course, that means tomorrow he'll have a totally different stand.<<
You can write any of your representatives and say you want them to support or oppose something and they will say that their office will look into it. Now if we could get even one illegal immigrant to say they oppose BPL, then the politicians might take it a little more seriously.
Funny how you see community car washes, bake sales and change jars to raise money for an American's life saving surgery who will die without it, but an illegal immigrant's can get two organ transplants for free, then dies, then the rest of the family gets to sue the hospital and it gets nationwide media coverage.
"Illegal immigrants are against BPL"
I think it could work.
73 & still posting for free....
The Eham Guest
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by NE1Z on April 19, 2004
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"if ham radio operators keep writing stupid and emotional letters with threats in them, then the practical and vindictive solution, will be to take away most of the high frequency privileges from ham radio operators..."
This is more accurate than you think. I can't count how many times there have been real threats of intentional 'jamming'. Really nice way to handle problems.
The flip side is this, posted on Broadband Reports, under an anonymous login, (a ham & I did find out who it is):
"You can bet I'm going to be driving around with equipment after work each week. If I see any identifiable BPL signals over S3, I'm filing a Part 15 complaint. I'll collect data all day."
Get a life! I suspect this is exactly the case of complaints in Manassas & will likely be happening elsewhere. Stupidity like this can only damage our already compromised appearance to the public & more importantly, the FCC. This blatant obsession really makes us all look BAD.
Jamming & blizzards of complaints will only lead to one thing, 100,000 lose what is obstructing the potential of 300,000,000. This is nothing short of shameful conduct but be careful of what you ask for!
I also think you need to get real with any 'survey' that says dialup users don't want broadband. I have seen crackheads who didn't want to get high. Now they are toothless, clueless & homeless. Those polls are BS, Barbra Streisand!!!
Bill
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by WB4QNG on April 19, 2004
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I think the average person doesn't care how he gets his high speed internet service. He justs wants it. As for as ham radio goes the public could care less they have no idea what ham radio is. It is just big bucks. The presidents wants it he will get it. I do agree that when complaining make since with your arguments. Our biggest promblem I think is no representation in congress. I was shocked when I found out there are only two hams in congress and one is a Novice and no senators. I think that is the problem.
Terry
WB4QNG
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RE: And if we interfere with BPL?
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by N8MMZ on April 19, 2004
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KD4LEI:
The power companies don't have to lift a finger to make us look stupid (honestly, they really could care less) - read some of the comments on this issue... We do a pretty good job of making ourselves look stupid without their assistance!!!
73s de N8MMZ - Jonathan
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KB9ZYA on April 19, 2004
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Has anyone seen the news about a new wireless internet service in Sidney, AU? It is called "iburst" and has a range of 5 miles from the antenna - direct line-of-sight is not required either. You need a special computer card that works in the 1.5ghz band and the cost of the service is the same as normal dial-up! In one more year 75% of the population in Australia will be able to connect to it. Sources say that Bozeman and Butte Montana will get iburst service later this year- can anyone confirm this? Perhaps these BPL guys won't be able to sell their $49.95 mo service anyway if this iburst takes off in this country and it is priced the same as dial-up.
Mark
now AB9IR
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N4KR on April 20, 2004
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The "Airline Safety Task Force" has come out against BPL, claiming that it will interfere with aircraft safety and navigation equipment. If these claims are true, BPL will soon be dead in the water. Do the Electric Power companies want to take responsibility for an airline crash and loss of life ? The rats will run and hide if this happens. The public will turn on BPL if an airplane crashes on take-off because of BPL. Hams everywhere should watch this one. Airline Safety will take priority. ....
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BPL -- iBurst & Powell says Broadband Is Vital
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by NE1Z on April 20, 2004
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Hmmm, iBurst search revealed:
Looks to be true: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,63081,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4
Also see Powell's comments "FCC Head Says Broadband Is Vital" on WiFi Broadband:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,61869,00.html?tw=wn_story_related
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RE: BPL -- iBurst & Powell says Broadband Is V
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by N3HKN on April 20, 2004
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Government employees never accept direct "under the table" payments. They use the revolving door and take the promised lucrative jobs within the industry they used to regulate. I call that a bribe, though it is indirect to protect the guilty!
Dick N3HKN
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RE: BPL -- iBurst & Powell says Broadband Is V
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by WA4MJF on April 20, 2004
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Dick, just one recent case.
There was a ham (I hope RH has
pulled his ticket for not having
the requisite character to be a ham)
named Hanson who worked for the FBI. His job
was to "regulate" enemy spies.
He did not wait until he retired to
take a job with the spies he was regulating.
He was caught, how many have not?
73 de Ronnie
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by AC0X on April 20, 2004
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NE1Z said
>The flip side is this, posted on Broadband Reports,
>under an anonymous login, (a ham & I did find out who
>it is):
>"You can bet I'm going to be driving around with
>equipment after work each week. If I see any
>identifiable BPL signals over S3, I'm filing a Part >15 complaint. I'll collect data all day."
>Get a life! I suspect this is exactly the case of
>complaints in Manassas & will likely be happening
>elsewhere. Stupidity like this can only damage our
>already compromised appearance to the public & more
>importantly, the FCC. This blatant obsession really
>makes us all look BAD.
So, according to you, if we DO experience inteference from BPL, we shouldn't complain, because complaining makes us look bad. We should just tolerate whatever interference it brings us.
Why are you even a ham? I've never seen you post a single post that is the slightest way positive or promotes amateur radio. If you hate the hobby so much, if you think we're all so stupid and pathetic, why don't you just cancel your license?
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by KB2FCV on April 20, 2004
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Quote:
"The law in our side in this. We have the right-of-way. BPL has to avoid interfering with us, that spokesman for the APPA has it backward. However, this is the real world, and money talks. What should we do?"
It's on our side, for now. Since the FCC wants to see BPL go through.. how quick do you think they'll pull our HF priviledges if we are a primary source of interference to BPL? They are the FCC.. they can change things around on us.
Personally I hope BPL flops and it's gone altogether in a few year.
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by N6AJR on April 20, 2004
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Kerry ain't gonna help.. he left Nam early because he had 3 Minor injuries, and used a little known clause to leave combat if injured 3 times, then he came back and joined our favorie lady Jane Fonda and did the whole anti Viet Nam thing..He was a leader in the Vets against the War organization.. He is a liar and a manipulator and he will be worse than the idiots running the show now.... look up this stuff, its true
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RE: BPL
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by WD4HXG on April 20, 2004
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Did anyone notice that the FCC proposed changing the rules to reflect that one is an amateur by virtue of being registered with them, not holding a license. Could it be they plan on only registering amateurs, thus removing our status as "LICENSEES!". Since we would no longer be a licensee we would be on par with the BPL crowd at best.
<Just because I am paranoid does not mean that someone is not out to get me!>
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by W5GNB on April 21, 2004
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I really don't see what all the HURAAHH! is about on this BPL stuff, from the pictures on the W4OHV web page, it doesn't look like anything that a good High Power hunting rifle couldn't take care of!!
I bet I could site one of those little boxes in from about 1000-yards and quickly get things real QUIET!!
If they put one near my place, that is JUST what will happen!
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KE2IV on April 21, 2004
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Well to put it bluntly.
You folks kind of elected Bush (and seem ready to do so again).
He had foreign policy aims mainly intended to solve his Oedipus complex vis a vis his dad. But he couldn't do that without cover.
So he agreed to appoint Colin Powell (dad's general from Iraq I) as SecState.
But Colin had a price. He wanted his son, Michael appointed to a premier government post - like head of the FCC.
Now Michael is a good, free marketeer Republican and doing his best to further de-regulate radio spectrum.
Whether he has other connections to the utility industry is for someone else to discover.
But 'nuff said.
You wanted a Republican administration, further unfettered by having a Republican congress. Now don't go complaining when they auction off spectrum to the highest bidder damnit.
You asked for it...you got it.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by W6GZ on April 21, 2004
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BIG BROTHER'S TO DO LIST:
1. Build a network that reaches every room in every room in every home and business in Amereica. While your at it bug their refrigerators too.
2. Install Listening devices /video devices.
Once BPL is deployed item no. 1 (the hard one) will be complete. There are constitutional protections against no.2 but think about what the Patiot Act version 3.0 might look like after (God forbid) a terroist nuke attack.
BPL won't be stopped by appealing to reason. Greed beats reason every time. Fear and paranoia just might beat greed. What is needed is to create a real scare. One with the ACLU and NRA knocking on every Congressperson's door. Thousands of protesters in the streets wouldn't hurt either.
Heck, there might even be an environmental angle... How about the continuous RF exposure effect. Maybe it causes headaches and insomnia. It doesn't have to be real...just plausible.
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by W1RFI on April 21, 2004
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> Since the FCC wants to see BPL go through.. how
> quick do you think they'll pull our HF priviledges
> if we are a primary source of interference to BPL?
How quickly has the FCC pulled our privileges when our fundamental signals are a source of interference to cable TV, telephone, over-the-air TV, alarm systems and a host of other devices and systems that can suffer interference if poorly designed? If the FCC wanted an opportunity to yank amateur spectrum, they have had that chance for years.
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: GET REAL !
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by W1RFI on April 21, 2004
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> The FCC is run by lawyers and paper-pushing
> bureacrats that have little interest in following up
> complaints from a bunch of amateurs.
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/FCC_enforcement/FCC_Enforcement_Letters.htm
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/
Not bad for a "dismantled" function...
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by NE1Z on April 21, 2004
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"...according to you, if we DO experience inteference from BPL, we shouldn't complain, because complaining makes us look bad. We should just tolerate whatever interference it brings us."
You intentionally miss my point, called obsessive irresponsibility.
The ARRL has now successfully stoked up a posse of "ballot box stuffers" as illustrated by that foolish post of someone bragging about riding around in order to file mass complaints. A "I'm going to teach them" attitude makes us look bad & that was done by an admitted ham "engineer" on Broadband Reports. Great PR for ham radio! Add the obsessive compulsive behavior of finding ANY radio 'noises' to report, jamming BPL & now 'weapon use' further proves harm to our position by encouraging extremism. Irresponsible activism makes us look bad but so does tolerating it. I have read the BPL comments on ECFS, have you? It is sad when people are so against something yet they can't even spell a single sentence in opposition to it.
The premise of protecting mobiles from powerline noise is absolutely absurd. It is not done now, pre-BPL, nor is there protection for mobiles vs. noise practiced by law. Mobile HF is a compromised installation environment to begin with. Many of us have worked mobile & everyone knows it is noise rich with engine & line pickup. Vertical antennas are perfect for such pickup. Call Riley & make him laugh by telling him you are experiencing mobile noise. No fixed dipole or loop comparisons? Fixed stations are a majority so why document the mobile minority unless you seek to be slanted by aggravating issues. Computer models never reproduce field trials so they are an excuse for lacking real world numbers. No cooperation?
There are 354 hams in Manassas & 41 in Penn Yan Village. Who is willing to bet the complaint numbers won't excede 1 complaint per, including Techs & inactives, but will only be from a handful? I bet 2 or 3 times it!
"Oh it's the Tin Foil Hat Patrol again..." makes us look bad.
You are right, cancel your license...
Bill
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by AE0Z on April 21, 2004
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If the vulnerabilities of BPL to interference turn out to be significant, it will dry up, because the name of the game is money. If it has enough trouble to be a nuisance, or if enough people THINK it has, they won't buy, and that will be the end of that.
Ham Radio still exists because the FCC thinks we are necessary. Period. You can come up with 6 good reasons for cancelling the entire Amateur Service without breaking a sweat, and a minute's contemplation will provide at least as many ways of doing to it less overtly. But it isn't happening. Let's see what has happened in reality lately. A new band. Grant money for training. More states passing antenna/CCR laws. Fines for intererence and selling illegal equipment. Our stock is rising with the people who matter, not falling.
Let's stand our ground on this issue, because we have ground to stand on. Ham Radio is still justifiable in the 21st century, according to government entities and public agencies from the local level on up to Washington DC. Most of all, let's not give any ground to the BPL interests with bad behavior.
Howard Parks, AB9FH
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by KF7CG on April 21, 2004
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NE1Z Bill,
You are not going to like my analogy, but it is consistant and, I hope, well reasoned. BPL is like any of a dozen cancers that the medical profession has us search ourselves for during medical check ups.
Cervical cancer, the PAP smear, the doctor goes looking for the slightest evidence by collecting cells in a contrived way and then searching. Prostate cancer, the PSA test, the doctor has a blood sample checked for a possible problem yearly if you are at a susceptible point.
Here is the mobile radio analogy. Mobile radio in detecting BPL interference is performing the same function that the tests mentioned earlier and biopsies perform for cancer. These tests give an early warning of a problem that if it were allowed to develop to the point of being readily observable, it would be fatal.
If we wait until BPL interference is readily apparent at our fixed location it has become to big to stop. If the Amateur community through reasonable and well documented mobile interference surveys, reports, and complaints can keep the problem from growing we have solved a problem that may have been fatal to Amateur Radio in the HF spectrum.
To take this a step further, mobile operation can demonstrate the character of the interference. The same equipment in location A doesn't see the problem. It sees the problem at strength N at location B, and sees the problem at strength O at location C. This definitely shows a problem that is not a natural part of the environment.
Therefore, it is correct technique for mobile stations to search out document, report, and file complaints on interference. This is most definitely true when the causes insist that it isn't them.
Rabid extremism is not desirable, but a furvent diigence is required.
Dave
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by KG5JJ on April 22, 2004
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Well...since this issue has been ridiculously politicized, blaming both parties, from the Commander-in-Chief, to White-House-Wannabes, here is more of the same;
"A chicken in every pot, and fiber in every house!"
73 KG5JJ (Mike)
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA4ET on April 22, 2004
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Having attended a meeting this past week on BPL, and the lectuerer being a senior engineer and employee on a electrical company, I can express a differant point of view from many of you.
THis person that I will not name, is also a ham, and said, parraphaseing him "BPL is a black hole from which electrical companyies may fall into, and never make it back out"
That BPL is so riddled and flawed with misconceptions, it is unbeleiveable. The people making the decisions on this have no understanding of bandwidth and amatuer radio operations,it is no wonder they have allowed this supposed Broadband NARVINA to procede.
It sounded to me we have a up hill battle, because the concept of depoloyent and the problems involved are totally going unnoticed at the decision level, because of there lack of technical understanding of the infromation being despensed. It is kind of like your plumber being instructed how to impliment a nuclear reactor,and making all the decision on what to do. Its a formula that will be flawed from the start, and no wonder what they have said, seem to make no sense to the rest of us
DAvid
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by N4KIT on April 22, 2004
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Hey Ed - W1RFI ...
We've been hearing that the NTIA study would be released "any minute" since Friday, and nothing has showed on the NTIA site, or anywhere else I can find. Any idea what gives?
My fertile imaginatation is churning, could it be that the report puts such a huge hole in the no interference claims that the "powers that be" are doing everything they can to keep it quiet.
Or maybe I have just reached my MPE on conspiracy theories, hi hi!
73 de Chris
N4KIT
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA0DTH on April 22, 2004
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I really believe there is a better way.
In a wireless world, why try to jam broad band RF down old AC lines at who know what power level. With its losses, noise, and radiation problems.
It seems almost a point of desperation to get the internet to every home and cash in on the profits.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KT0DD on April 22, 2004
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Dont look now, Amperion has drawn a line in the sand and said to the FCC, whatever interference reduction measures they have taken already are good enough, even though they haven't done much to stop BPL carriers on 20,17 & 10 meters. Read the article on www.arrl.org. Time for everyone to buy a L.L. amplifier, and gear up for 1.5 KW mimimum necessary power to communicate. 73.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WB8YQJ on April 22, 2004
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>>>>>>
ARRL CEO David Sumner framed the situation another way. "From the very beginning, the fundamental problem with BPL has been that its proponents have no understanding of the low signal levels that are
commonly and effectively used by radiocommunication services," he said.
"If BPL emissions block weak signals that otherwise would be usable, that is harmful interference and they must remedy it. Progress Energy has as much as admitted that they can't. The only thing left for them
to do is to shut their system down and get back to their basic business of supplying electrical energy."
>>>>>>>>>>
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KT0DD on April 22, 2004
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>"Amperion has drawn a line in the sand and said to the FCC, whatever interference reduction measures they have taken already are good enough"
It sounds to me that Amperion is trying to set the stage for a Costly legal battle to determine what is and isn't "Good enough". 73.
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NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by NE1Z on April 22, 2004
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Where did the estimate of 70,000 mobile stations under 80MHz come from? Planet Goofy? What creative BS engineering!
Will the next Tin Foil Hat Patrol please report for Mothership duty...
Don't feed the greed.
Bill
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RE: NC BPL -- mobiles
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by WA4MJF on April 22, 2004
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Well, the State of NC has almost
2000 on 42 MHz (NCSHP) and another 1500
or so on 47 MHz (NSDOT). Another 500 or
so on 31 MHz (NC Forestry Service). So that
is 3000 of them.
There are also many VFDs, local law enforcement,
local government, power companies, contractors,
farmers, etc on the VHF Low Band.
18th Abn Corps has a whole bunch of mobiles
between 30 and 88 MHz. A lot of them are out
of country now though. So do the Jarheads
and the National Guard.
That is why they only use frequencies below
30 MHz for BPL here.
I'm sure other states are the same way.
70k mobiles would not be hard to get to.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: NC BPL -- mobiles
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by NE1Z on April 22, 2004
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The number was from the ARRL article that claimed they were trying to protect that many mobiles from BPL. I suspect they meant amateur mobiles unless they are now moonlighting. 70,000 below 80MHz is such BS, even by estimate!
I can't stop laughing at that PECO article & the ARRL's Gary Pearce KN4AQ in particlar. No Gary, we've never been asked to accept it because mobiles are transient & not protected. If PECO gets that definition they seek, the ARRL are going to be sorry they asked for it, indirectly.
Get on that Blunder bus!
Bill
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RE: NC BPL -- mobiles
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by AC0X on April 22, 2004
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NE1Z belched
>70,000 below 80MHz is such BS, even by estimate!
Oh, really? Show me where you get your data from?
Actually, don't bother. You've never said anything on this web site that didn't have the obvious purpose of destroying ham radio and supporting those who wish to destroy it. You're either heavily invested in BPL, or you get some kind of sick thrill out of bashing and trying to destroy something that means so much to so many people. Which is it?
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RE: NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by KE2IV on April 23, 2004
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NE1Z,
Why are you so sceptical with 80,000 or so users of mobile 2-way radio below 80 Mhz?
Ever hear of taxis, car services etc.?
I'd guesstimate we have in NYC at least five to ten thousand in that category. That gets a long way to the total given we're about 2% of the total US population.
The reality is that BPL arose during the hey-day era of utility investment when things like Enron were riding high. The idea was to leverage the in-place to the max, w/o regard to the consequences.
No one in charge is going to stop BPL - the insiders have already made their $ and the rest of the investors are now in for the ride.
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RE: NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by NE1Z on April 23, 2004
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I love you who are now defending commercial 2-way users, including them in with us. Is the ARRL moonlighting some some extra cash?
I'd have to believe that 1 in 10 amateurs are mobile everyday. Where did the ARRL dream up this number? They are always rich in their estimations & I am sure they can't justify it with hard numbers.
Hell, half the hams can't put any antenna on the car cause Mommy won't let them!
Bill
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by W1RFI on April 23, 2004
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> We've been hearing that the NTIA study would be
> released "any minute" since Friday, and nothing has
> showed on the NTIA site, or anywhere else I can
> find. Any idea what gives?
The report has consistently taken them longer than they thought. The first estiimates were that it was going to have been released December of last year, and the schedule keeps getting bumped. From what I have read, it should be released in two parts, with the first one being a preliminary report and the second a more comprehensive one. The preliminary report is probably going to be rather voluminous.
I would imagine there are approvals at all levels, adding a bit to the delay, but I will speculate a bit that the biggest reason it took so long is that there is going to be a lot of material.
I hope so, anyway, as I want to use their independent data to do all sorts of calculations.
Ed
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RE: NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by AC0X on April 23, 2004
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NE1Z was flatulent and the following noises came out:
>I love you who are now defending commercial 2-way
>users, including them in with us. Is the ARRL
>moonlighting some some extra cash?
K, let me try to explain this to you (try not to make your brain hurt too much). BPL affects ALL legal HF users, not just hams. Easy enough to understand?
>I'd have to believe that 1 in 10 amateurs are mobile
>everyday
No one said "everyday". Maybe it was once of the voices in your head that told you that?
I'm starting to feel bad for you. I took a look in "yahoo" for Psychiatrists in your town, and I found over 150. Plenty of people to help you with your need to destroy something you actually took the time to be part of.
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RE: NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by NE1Z on April 23, 2004
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AC0X,
You fail to see the truth through those bandaid-bonded glasses.
I did not know the ARRL had assumed protecting all nationwide HF radio users, not just amateurs whom they claim to represent against such interests & constantly probe for spare change to "defend" them. Now that I know the humble ARRL is doing the Lord's work for sure, let them go get commercial sponsorship.
Second, I did insert daily, trying to give the ARRL defense the benefit of doubt in their inflated mobile numbers. If it isn't daily & rather quantity overall, then PECo is wise to bring up the point of mobile operations being "very short lived". It shows the mistaken focus by the ARRL on mobiles, ignoring fixed stations which really need protection. It is not the battle, rather it's the war!
While we are annoyed at being annoyed, you simply can't have it both ways. Those of you who can't stand a taste of reality & a little perspective regarding ham radio come off looking like spoiled brats who make even less sense as your emotional level rises.
You can't lie your way out of any challenge & the ARRL is running out of lies in North Carolina! They need to tell the truth, for once, when it really counts!
Bill
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N3NL on April 23, 2004
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It is interesting to note that the ARRL reports that
short-wave listeners also have standing to bring up
formal BPL interference complaints. Refer to the
In Brief section of the ARRL web site on April 21, 2004.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
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RE: NC BPL -- Curb Your ARRL Jihadist Behavior
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by AC0X on April 23, 2004
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NE1Z sneezed, neglected to excuse himself, and this is what was produced:
>You can't lie your way out of any challenge & the
>ARRL is running out of lies in North Carolina!
The only lies are coming out of you. And the funny part is, you often even contradict yourself for your obvious purpose of trying to destroy amateur radio. Now, if you're doing this because you're somehow heavily invested in the future of BPL, then there are no words dark and disgusting enough to use to describe you. If, however, it's simply a result of a deep-seated mental anguish and sickness (maybe a league staffer cut you off on Highway 91 one day and you've never got over it?), then I do feel pity for you. Here's a link you might find useful to help you:
http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?&&city=Northampton&state=MA&uzip=01060&country=us&msa=8000&cs=4&ed=atw3x61o2Tx8PHRbB.uLvK4ib1nptywCbL8wGktSEVZO&stp=y&stx=8107127
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Black Helicopters
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by KA4KOE on April 23, 2004
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The guys in the tin foil hats are looking for black helicopters now. They say that those who want BPL only want to expose us to mind control signals via the powerline wiring in our houses 24-7.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by ASTROHAM on April 24, 2004
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Has it ever occured to anyone that the politicians at the FCC likely understand that BPL is doomed to fail, but it is political suicide to tell Uncle AJ and Auntie Dot, who live at the end of Rural Road 6 that they can't have internet because a small group of people with too much time on their hands will loose their toys?
The power companies need this like they need a hole in the head, and the cell phone companies are already on a sacred mission to create cheap wireless-for-everyone. Everyone who has powerlines going to their house doesn't necessarily have a computer. However, pretty much everyone who has a computer with a burning urge to connect also has a cell phone.
The free market will not allow BPL to survive, and no amount of rule-wrangling will allow it or prevent it. The FCC simply needs to politically support anything that will allow the digital divide to be bridged knowing all the time that BPL won't do it.
Unfortunately, I also think that there will be period of months or maybe years where isolated BPL trials will take some of us off the air, before the power industry figures out the obvious.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by K1CJS on April 24, 2004
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"......Uncle AJ and Auntie Dot, who live at the end of Rural Road 6 that they can't have internet because a small group of people with too much time on their hands will loose their toys?......."
It has to be emphasized that BPL out to the country in its present form IS NOT FEASIBLE! The cost of the needed signal repeaters to bring the signal even ten miles out into the country would make the service unprofitable, and the power companies want profits. Thats the only reason the power companies wanted into BPL--profits. Anybody who thinks they want to get broadband into every household without making money on the deal is crazy.
BPL in its present form will never make it out of urban areas. Period.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by NE1Z on April 24, 2004
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"they can't have internet because a small group of people with too much time on their hands will lose their toys??"
Not to mention the shame of having nothing to offer as an alternative. Part 15 used as Part 97 is NOT an alternative. Criticism is cheap but solves nothing.
If it were broadband on the 3.5Ghz band & 1000 hams used it one weekend a year for contesting, they would be against that too, "cause it is used".
You will see that we indeed can't have it both ways or should I more correctly say we won't.
Bill
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KF7CG on April 24, 2004
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Bill,
With that logic anyone that wants to should be able to preempt the funds in your life insurance. You aren't even going to use it. It will only get used once and somebody else can sure make a claim that they need and deserve the money more.
What about the funds in your retirement account? You aren't using them right now, they are only there because you were paid more than you needed and put them away, why shouldn't they be distributed to the needy? They need them right now.
Why should we have golf courses reserved out of the public lands? Only a small part of the population uses them. They could be much more valuable as school yards, business parks, or housing developments.
You see, I can apply the better good logic to almost any resource that is used by less than the majority and perceived as a "luxury," or privilege. Remember BPL isn't even a particularly good or cost effective means of providing Broadband internet service. Just a well hyped one.
Broadband internet is really needed less than 10% of the time. Most of the reason for broadband is to allow advertisers to churn out whiz bang, oh my gosh animation for web site commercials. I can live without them. Give me a good solid text connection for 98% of what I do. Broadband can't donload music, No problem -- No piracy.
There is very little justification for BPL, it isn't going to be used by the majority. It is supposed to be there to serve a small minority that are actually enconomically infeasable to serve with its systems.
BPL in urban and suburban settings is just not needed. We do not have that call in our arsenal so we must come from different directions to persuade others to realize this fact.
When and if a decision is made that interference levels like have been detected by the only stations close enough to characterize the problem is not interference it will be time to carefully and thoughtfully characterize the meaning of the word accept.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by NE1Z on April 26, 2004
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10% of people refuse to understand the need for broadband speed. You make your decision, I'll make mine, thanks! It really is all about choices, not "what-ifs" like piracy?
Even less than 1% have any alternative solution to offer.
I don't know where you got your numbers but go read Daily Wireless & educate yourself about the real world around you. Ham radio installs wireless blinders on many but not all...
Bill
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by NN6EE on April 26, 2004
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Gentlemen,
Yesterday I heard on the evening news that our illustrious "Dear Leader" aka G. Bush is entirely in FAVOR of bringing internet access to ALL homes in Amerika which means that no matter what the consequences of "BPL" will pose to us the fraternal order of Amateur Radio Operators he's going to endorse it and the LACKIES @ FCC will do his bidding!!!
You can take that to "The Bank"!!!
Part 15 Rules and Regs WILL be re-written to accommodate the new BPL industry and if Hams dare interfer with BPL data transmissions we'll be the ones who are penalized, and you can bank that too!!!
Regards,
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by NE1Z on April 26, 2004
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Instead of using TV as your news source, try reading a bit. Broadband is a term, like the internet.
His point is not taxing the emerging service & culture of the internet. It should not be hindered by taxing it, like telephone service has become. Internet sales tax is not going to get past him. This is good. BB internet is good for jobs & business, despite people here who say no one needs it.
I have read 11 articles on the subject & none of them comes close to the BS stated above.
I suggest reading Broadband Reports to cure your conspiracy fever or moreso, your rampant ignorance of the issues.
Bill
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by KE4ZHN on April 26, 2004
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Lobbying = Legalized bribery! Money changing hands via legal means (only legal because the crooks themselves made it so!) to buy political support for ones cause, whatever it may be. And even if its not cold hard cash, its done by granting "favors" like high paying do nothing jobs to those who support the lobbyists cause. No matter how you slice it, WE, meaning the taxpayer (aka little guy, sucker, and pee on) lose!!! Big bucks will always get what it wants because its too easy for them to just buy off some suit and tie wearing hypocrite up in DC who wants a better retirement plan then the government can provide. Its sad and unfortunate that the principles of democracy are for sale to the highest bidder, rather then our so called leaders doing whats right. If our founding fathers knew how badly the system they created has gotten twisted and corrupted for greed, they would be turning over in their graves.
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RE: BPL -- Curb Your Jihadist Behavior
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by AI4CB on April 26, 2004
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" ... would imagine there are approvals at all levels, adding a bit to the delay, but I will speculate a bit that the biggest reason it took so long is that there is going to be a lot of material..."
More likely that the report is being 'scrubbed' by the politicians to make sure it draws the 'right' conclusions.
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Bush supports BPL
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by AC0X on April 27, 2004
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To NE1Z
Yes, he does. Here's a quote from yesterday's speech in Minneapolis
"There needs to be technical standards to make
possible new broadband technologies, such as the use
of high-speed communication directly over power lines.
Power lines were for electricity; power lines can be used for broadband technology. So the technical standards need to be changed to encourage that"
This isn't just a vaugue "broadband for everyone" statement. This is a statement about "changing technical standards" to "encourage" BPL.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WA3KYY on April 27, 2004
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Bill, NE1Z, makes several good points we need to be aware of. Universal broadband access does not mean only BPL. There are numerous broadband technologies available to meet the goal of universal access. The current FCC and Administation policy is to let the marketplace sort out which will actually achieve the goal. The recent administation announcement about no taxes on broadband services applies to all forms of delivering it.
There is absolutely no indication in the NPRM on BPL that the Part 15 rules are going to be changed to shift the balance in favor of BPL or any other unlicensed device. In fact, more restictions are being proposed for BPL than any other Part 15 device currently on the market.
Given a free marketplace in which to develope, other forms of broadband service will likely kill BPL before it gets very far. A careful economic analysis will lead to that conclusion. The need for signal repeaters every 1000-2000 feet plus the costs of the line couplers and signal extractors are going to make it difficult for them to compete effectivley in markets already served by other forms of broadband. I have heard rumors that Prospect Street is not seeing the hoped for subscriber rates in Manassas, VA. Thus while there is interest, there does not seem to be the overwhelming demand BPL proponents were counting on. Their published monthly connect charges after the usual 1-3 month discount do not appear very attractive either compared to the alternatives.
The stated promise of bringing broadband to Rural America will not happen for the same reasons cable and DSL are not available there now. The cost to do it cannot be met by the expected return even if there were a large urban subscriber base to subsidize rural deployments. A mix of fiber, WiFi and/or 3.6GHz direct transmission will probably be cheaper than BPL, cable or DLS for those areas.
73,
Mike
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RE: Bush supports BPL
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by AB5XZ on April 27, 2004
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To AC0X:
The President needs to get some mail, I think. I intend to write to him and tell him (since his FCC won't listen) that BPL is going to destroy HF communication, amateur and otherwise. I'm also going to tell him that he is being lied to by lawyers and lobbyists, and that perhaps he should listen to the engineers for a bit. APPA must have a magic bullet that will solve the economic problems of rural broadband via BPL. UPLC says it isn't economical to serve rural areas with BPL.
I usually vote Republican, but I doubt that voting Democratic would stop this juggernaut. There are just too many lobbyists with too much money.
73TomAB5XZ
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by NE1Z on April 27, 2004
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"the use of broadband has tripled since 2000 from 7 million subscriber lines to 24 million..."
If we are to compete in the 21st century, we need to do all of the things he calls for & then some. I see it serves you nicely to cherrypick your issue but read the whole speech before jumping up & down.
He has called for shuffling 90MHz of Federal spectrum, yet not 1KHz of ham spectrum. Pretty even handed approach considering not much above 450MHz is used. Try admitting the obvious bookmark status of our microwave bands! We have nothing to offer technology, nothing but space...
The whole speech (in context) can be found at: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040426-6.html
"And we need to open up more federally controlled wireless spectrum to auction in free public use, to make wireless broadband more accessible, reliable, and affordable. Listen, one of the technologies that's coming is wireless..."
You miss the point, it is telephone regulations that impede wireless deployment. I make no apology for bringing the facts to a discussion but try reading outside the ham radio shoebox to get a full perspective. Again, try Wireless or Broadband Reports to see how the other 99.77% see things "under development" in the 21st century, not 1964!
Bill
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by AC0X on April 27, 2004
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From NE1Z
"(President Bush) has called for shuffling 90MHz of Federal spectrum, yet not 1KHz of ham spectrum"
Why should he call for shuffling any amateur spectrum? He'll just let BPL s**t all over it instead!
"If we are to compete in the 21st century, we need to do all of the things he calls for & then some"
So what you're saying is that we (and other HF users) should give up our legal access to HF for some legally unallocated, RF dirty, and already obsolete (with new advances in wireless) technology?
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RE: Bush supports BPL?
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by NE1Z on April 27, 2004
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I agree with Tom & have written to the President today.
I also feel BPL will die on its' lack of merit when compared to maintaining a wireless system. Keep in mind what broadband rollout will lead to:
South Korea, a country of 48 million people, is the broadband capital of the world with 70% penetration.
Most pay about $33 monthly for an 8 megabit-per-second DSL connection. Over 90 percent live within 2.5 miles of a broadband-enabled local telephone exchange.
They use wireless including operational "4G" clouds.
We have yet to clear 3G deployment but we will never see such low prices because of regulations Bush seeks to remove. 8MB/s is an extremely generous rate!
Bill
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RE: Bush supports BPL
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by WB8YQJ on April 27, 2004
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president@whitehouse.gov
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/04/27/1/?nc=1
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RE: BPL -- Shrill Emotions
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by NE1Z on April 27, 2004
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I didn't say anything of the sort, but since you ask:
"Why should he call for shuffling any amateur spectrum?"
Because 900MHz & above simply isn't used, that's why. 100's of MHz simply humming along without a soul on it... No data, no video, not even a single ham voice!
The spoiled brats will be forced to share the sandbox with others AC0X, get the picture? You can't have it both ways, prevent any encroachment but not use the upper spectrum. Had a swap offer been made, perhaps HF BPL could have been stunted from growing but that is too much to ask of OF's who sit on their local repeaters (all below 450Mhz), whining about asserting rights of retention.
What does the future of "first responders" look like?
http://www.calit2.net/images/news/2003/10-3_WIISARDgraphic.jpg
See it & weep because this is the future, all without ARES/RACES/REACT. Ham radio is so far behind, we are now a sacred burial ground for ancient technology. We don't have anything to rival the future development of our own treasured vocation, radio communications!
DX doesn't further the art, tinkering with RF & ASIC's does!
Bill
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RE: Bush supports BPL?
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by AC0X on April 27, 2004
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From NE1Z
>I agree with Tom & have written to the President
>today.
Thank you.
>I also feel BPL will die on its' lack of merit when
>compared to maintaining a wireless system
Which would work fine if this really were simply determined by the "free market". But it's not. Do you see any FCC Commissioners calling *any* form of wireless "Broadband Nirvana"? No, they're not. Yet they'll heap those accolades on BPL. Obviously, they're pushing and promoting for it, above other forms of broadband. And that's a BIG part of our problem.
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RE: BPL -- Shrill Emotions
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by AC0X on April 27, 2004
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NE1Z joined the cacaphony:
>Because 900MHz & above simply isn't used, that's why.
>100's of MHz simply humming along without a soul on
>it... No data, no video, not even a single ham voice!
900+ MHz is line of sight. Just because you don't hear anything, doesn't mean no ones there. Just no one in your area, at the moment you've decided to listen. There are LARGE parts of the commercial spectrum that'll sound just as dead if you listen to them.
>Had a swap offer been made, perhaps HF BPL could have
>been stunted from growing
Too bad not only wasn't any "offer" made, but power companies are acting as though there was no need for an offer. According to them, BPL won't cause any inteference. So, why should they offer to move it anywhere else than HF?
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N0FP on April 27, 2004
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Go to the ARRL website and look at the front page news about Bush's comments made in Minneapolis about BPL. Get those QSL cards flowing into the white house ASAP.
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RE: BPL - American Public Power Association
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by WB8YQJ on April 28, 2004
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HOW WOULD YOU SEND A MESSAGE? That part's easy - go to:
https://sawho14.eop.gov/PERSdata/intro.htm Read the introductory
paragraph and decide if you want to send e-mail, US Mail, or FAX.
(ARRL
Pres. Haynie used FAX).
1. Click on "Continue" to send e-mail
2. Select "write a differing opinion"
3. Select "Science & Technology" as your subject
4. Click on "Continue"
5. Enter name, address & e-mail address
6. Click on "Continue"
7. Enter your message, click on "Continue"
8. Edit and/or send your message
WHAT WOULD YOUR MESSAGE SAY? Here's one example:
************************************************************
Our country will benefit from a reasonable National Broadband Internet
Access Policy. There are several ways to achieve universal access,
such
as DSL, Cable, Wireless, Satellite and Fiber. One technique, Broadband
over Power Lines (BPL), does not deserve a place in our national policy
because, by polluting the radio frequency spectrum, it destroys much
more than it accomplishes.
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RE: BPL -- Shrill Emotions
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by NE1Z on April 28, 2004
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BPL will die on its' own. Wireless will beat any cost analysis & maintaining a BPL system can't be compared to a centralized wireless service point.
902-928 radio should have been made commercially. We missed the boat because hardware is available everywhere for the band. Cybiko terminals could have been a very handy application but nothing got off the ground in the ham world.
I really suggest going to dailywireless.org & see the cacaphony of wireless development going on around us. All of it needs a place in the spectrum to occupy.
Bill
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RE: BPL -- Shrill Emotions
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by WA3KYY on April 29, 2004
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Bill, we really did miss the boat at 900MHz. Given the power levels amateurs can use, we could have had some really neat digital stuff there at about the same cost as putting up your typcial county-wide 2M/70cm repeater system. Using Cybiko or other 900MHz wireless terminals for Public Service and ECOMM support would have been way ahead of VHF packet and voice.
What would be really neat is to develope an anamteur band wireless card that can plug in to PDAs or laptops coupled to digital repeaters. Our 3, 5 or 10 GHz allocations would be a good spot to experiment with this or even 2.4GHz except for the large number of 802.11b/g devices already there.
Yes, it's not new technology but is a way to embrace the digital movement in amateur circles in a big way. Who knows what might develope once experimentation begins.
Mike
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BBC White Paper on radio interference to Aircraft
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by WB8YQJ on April 29, 2004
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BBC White Paper on radio interference to Aircraft
Two interesting conclusions - interference effects on aircraft are virtually independent of height above ground, and with sky wave propagation, interference for ground-based receivers is omni-directional, so it is impossible to do as Alan Shark (president of PLCA) suggested recently, and simply point antennas in a direction other than that of the source.
For the best paper I have read on aggregation go to www.bbc.co.uk
Click on BBC Research and search for white paper WHP004 by Jonathan Stott.
If he is anywhere near right PLC should be banned immediately.
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WB8YQJ on April 29, 2004
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BPL = Bush's Pathetic Legacy
He is only *asking* for action here. There is no taxpayer money behind this, just this plea for the private sector to risk their money a second time on an idea that has already failed big once.
Next, he is asking the State regulators to remove laws that were meant to protect the public from greed entering the utilities. This, on the basis that somehow BPL more worthy of monopoly status.
After all this happens, we get the BPL legacy.
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BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by N2CTZ on May 1, 2004
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so when will i need to filter my radios when does bpl start in phoenix?
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by WB8YQJ on May 5, 2004
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Boeing and IEEE NOI Comments
Boeing
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=65\16183088
IEEE
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=65\16183235
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RE: BPL -- American Public Power Association
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by AE1X on May 29, 2004
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The reason (IMO) the complaints are being held is that this is a test site and a such the FCC will not be acting on the complaint only keeping track of them for statistics.
The Commission will only address complaints from that site once the site is fully operational and not before. The Commission will likely bring these complaints to the appropriate authorities when it makes sense to do so. During a trial run, complaints are not appropriate until the evaluation is underway.
Ken, AE1X
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