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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
Daniel Crites (K1WW)
on
April 27, 2004
View comments about this article!
Are the days of short wave listening over? If you are in one of the proposed BPL areas it appears so. From what I've heard of the various audio clips, you'll be battling an unending blanket of saw-tooth modulated audio tones. No more reception of BBC, VOA, or other foreign broadcasts.
In other worlds, the HF radio spectrum will become a wasteland of jamming signals authorized by the FCC. Cuba, China and other anti-democratic countries have been selectively jamming the short-wave spectrum for years, now our own government is going to allow BPL to do it for them.
All of this is being allowed to happen with the FCC taking the position that BPL can not cause interference, but the truth of the matter is that the very nature of BPL is to cause interference. It cannot operate in the HF spectrum without causing interference. If I live in a BPL area and I want to listen to the short-wave broadcast band then BPL will be interfering. That's fact not fiction.
Will BPL have to shut down if I complain? According to the FCC's own rules it will. I don't understand how the FCC, a regulating and enforcement agency, can authorize a service to jam the frequency spectrum with BPL and at the same time tell them they will be held liable if they do so.
Can anyone explain all this in a manner that makes common sense? I just don't get it.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N9WB on April 27, 2004
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It’s simple. The power industry has more money than we do. Money talks, the truth walks.
N9WB
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KB9YUR on April 27, 2004
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Maybe enough potential BPL consumers can be convinced it's not worth getting.
Maybe not ...
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by VE2AED on April 27, 2004
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Seems to me , and frankly I know very little about US law but can't all hams file some sort of suit against the engineers at the FCC for perscribing such unworkable and unsound laws. Engineering practices are supposed to be based on non destructive practices . From what I've been reading seems that there is not one knowledgeable "engineer" in the FCC group !
Howard VE2AED
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WIRELESS on April 27, 2004
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This issue concerning BPL is an excellent example why Americans need to understand the people they are voting for when they vote. Don't blame the FCC, they are the lap dog of Congress and the Administration. And YOU voted (or didn't vote against) for those now in office. If you don't like BPL, blame yourself!
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N8YXR on April 27, 2004
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Unfortunately for us, the FCC is no longer run by engineers or technical people. Our radio regulations are now decided on by people who can barely set the clock on their VCRs.
US hams need to become active enough to make politicians realize that this has to be changed. Too many of the decisions on technical issues are being made by people who have no idea how to understand the technical merrits of an argument.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N4KIT on April 27, 2004
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I may get blasted for this, but I beleive that BPL will crumble on its own. It may take a while, but sooner or later, the "money" will realize that there is no return on investment to be had in BPL. Other technologies such as FTTH (Fiber-To-The-Home), longer range wireless (thanks to hams for that one!) and satellite are maturing rapidly and coming down in price. I firmly beleive that BPL will be overtaken by events, once it has a chance to show it's true colors. Prospect Street's offering in Manassas is not doing anywhere near as well as the company had hoped, and I strongly beleive they may be looking for a way to bail out already.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0IZ on April 27, 2004
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Too much money at stake for the power companies, and related vendors, to be that concerned with ham radio.
It doesn't take much additional noise to keep that weak DX station from being heard - probably a level of noise that a power company exec (and the FCC chairman) would consider no problem.
Since BPL radiation from power lines is presumably the problem with interference, I'm hoping that the converse is true: That BPL will be disrupted by normal, authorized use of ham frequencies.
While the BPL distributers may pay short shrift to ham radio complaints, I would think disrupted data links to consumers would get their attention. Imagine the number of compaints if a 1KW 20 meter SSB station wiped out a 1 mile radius of BPL. Gee, that would be too bad...
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K8SWL on April 27, 2004
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This is a topic that catches my attention faster than anything radio related. Many amatuers started out as SWL's and moved on to amateur radio. I never left SWLing, I just added amateur radio as an additional hobby. I've been listening to shortwave radio for over 40 years and have no intention of stopping because of BPL.
I live in the metro Detroit area where cable and DSL are fighting for customers and almost giving Broadband service away. I don't believe BPL will fare well in this market, if they even choose to enter it. (I can only hope).
The folks that may need to be concerned are probably in small towns (3-10 thousand people) somewhat seperated from major cities.
I've dealt with line noise problems several times at several different locations around the country. In one case, the power company failed to cooperate in any way. All the usual telephone calls complaining fell on deaf ears. So I started directing my complaints to ears that would hear me. ie: letters to the editor of the local newspaper, calls to AM radio talk shows complaining of the noise that was interfering with their signal, addressing the City Council, letters to the local utilities commision etc. The end result was the Electric utility contacting me, sending 4 service people to my home at 8:00PM on a Friday, replacing 3 transformers, numerous insulators, over 1000 ft of line, and 7 service feeds to homes. This all took place within 48 hours after they initially came out.
The moral of this story is, it's not going to be an easy fight. It will require an offensive on many fronts. Don't count on the FCC to resolve the issue. The squeeky wheel gets the oil. This wheel needs to be squeeling, not squeeking and it needs to get oil wherever it can find it.
My thoughts, rants and aggrivations.
yours may be different.
because of our American freedom, this can be !
Mike K8SWL
Kilo Eight Short Wave Listener
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0RGR on April 27, 2004
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Well, we can hope and pray that BPL dies a natural death, but I think that's unlikely based on a little history.
Cable television was another technology nobody believed in. The earliest cable companies mostly went bankrupt. Then came a second wave, with better technology and a salable product. In order to get high enough market penetration, the cable companies made deals with real estate interests,developers, and local governments to put restrictive antenna covenants in place, forcing people with new homes to subscribe to cable.
Still, a very high percentage of cable companies went bankrupt. Then, something unexpected happened. Huge holding companies arose to buy up these bankrupt systems for pennies on the dollar. Suddenly, the unprofitable derelicts became 'cash cows' with huge profits because all of the fixed debts of developing the initial systems had been eaten by the early investors, most of whom took a bath.
Other, better financed systems experienced about 10 years of red ink until their initial construction debts were paid off, then they too became profitable. The cable company's biggest expenses now are the cost of all those channels they have to carry to be competitive. BPL won't have that expense.
If BPL makes any inroads at all, I would expect the same process to happen. The early investors will get soaked, but the second or third wave will cash in. Once this thing gets planted, it will spread like kudzu.
I watched news reports of President Bush's speech in the Twin Cities yesterday. The highlight of the whole speech was his promise to deliver a 'Broadband' solution to all Americans in a few years. It was very obvious that the solution he is promising is BPL. He promises that it will be very competitive with existing broadband connections. It should be obvious that the laws of physics will be rewritten, if needed, to make BPL happen.
Hopefully, we can reach some kind of accomodation with BPL that will let us continue to enjoy some of our HF spectrum, but I am not at all convinced that a long term peace will be achieved. Initial notching and filtering to avoid ham bands and broadcast bands will be replaced by legal wrangling and threats of lawsuit.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KF7CG on April 27, 2004
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This is where the SWL, when educated can help us. All the usual local complaints need to be promptly and accurately filed. Then complaints describing the exact nature of the interference and the governmental response to the claims filed need to go to the stations interfered with. International treaty trumps even The Constitutions so SWL and foreign stations asking for an end to the interference may be the last best hope.
A massive SWL uprising through the SW broadcasters needs to be created. This will leave the BPL supporters with an unstereotyped crowd with which to deal.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KG6AMW on April 27, 2004
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It may not kill it, but it will make life harder for those who wish to listen to overseas broadcasts. Contrary to popular belief, the FCC has always been run by political appointees who have been supported by very strong engineering staff a practice which continues today. The BPL issue today is not a question of payoffs or engineers with torpid concepts of RF engineering, but rather a question of political expediency. The FCC along with the political establishment in Washington (both parties) wants the public at all levels to have broadband access to the Internet. That said, I hope the FCC uses enough wisdom in this matter to protect existing licensed spectrum users as they undertake this. I'm not hopeful.
KG6AMW
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N4QA on April 27, 2004
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Broadband services for the masses *will* happen.
I believe that previous assertions of big money's involvement in this are correct.
However, Broadband over Power lines (BPL) is not the vehicle by which broadband will be delivered. Fiber and > 2 GHz rf systems will ultimately be utilized.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KT0DD on April 27, 2004
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After Progress Energy's declaration to the FCC that they have done all the filtering necessary (but still haven't completely notched out interference on 20, 17 & 12 meters, Its clear that all hams should come together under a single banner, be it the ARRL or another, as long as we have one loud voice. Enlist all the Lawyer hams as necessary to start putting a class action lawsuit against the power companies and the FCC. If the BPL companies are saying they've done enough, then it's time we said we've put up with enough from them, they have failed to demonstrate interference mitigation, and seek to shut it down.
Also, write your congressman, and the President to explain that they are destroying a vital part of homeland security preparadness. It's time to STOP playing nicey nice with this.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WB1FPA on April 27, 2004
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I am just wondering which of the FCC's commissioners is lining up their next job (... in the BPL industry)? This technology offers a infinitesimal amount of bandwidth when compared to Fiber and yet it's worth???? I don't think so! The FCC never placed any standards on RFI and interoperability on consumer devices in the USA (aside from the Part 15 joke), so any promise to keep clean the shortwave spectrum seems very shallow to me.
I'm hoping that some degree of rejection may be possible using active cancelization techniques like the MFJ-1026 (JPS ANF-1). If not, then shortwave days are limited. (Probably not possible due to the data rates involved.)
Imagine the frustration of trying to receive and help with emergency traffic from an affected area with BPL noise covering up the stations in the affected area! Not a pretty picture.
Tom Howey WB1FPA
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NA4IT on April 27, 2004
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Well, for many years now we have paid the ARRL to be "our voice" in Washington. But it seems it has done no good. I wonder if any difference would have been made if all the money collected by the ARRL had been spent on promoting amateur radio, instead of defending it. Around here, Homeland Security thinks 800 MHz is the way to go to communicate, although they say "amateur radio has it's place".
And on the matter of BPL providers having to accept interference from us, well, my beam is eye level with the power lines in front of my house, about 50 feet away, and I may just decide I want to work a little DX in that direction...
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KG4PNP on April 27, 2004
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From where I listen the interference from BPL needs to be looked at as informational leakage. If the modulated signals are receiviable then they can be tranfered into information. So much for that secure online banking or private high-speed email. Just as soon as a demonstration of the open nature of the BPL subscriber's online transactions is made public the rush to sign on may well fade away. The higher frequency and fiber routes may by their secure nature become the reality and the HF band Broadband may loose its attractiviness. Just imagine the class action lawsuit against the power companies for letting personal information fall into criminal hands due to their selling of BPL technology. What about the issuse of national security ? The leakage of information that would pass over an unsecure BPL node on its way over the Internet could be looked upon in hindsight as just as bad as the alledged information about the 911 attacks that was overlooked. If I were in the spy game business, I'd sure be pushing for BPL just for the open nature of its leakage ( read as interference). Just something to chew over.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K1CJS on April 27, 2004
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Get used to it--BPL is here, it is going to stay, it is going to spread until better systems are developed.
On another note, and forgive me for saying this and dragging the old discussion into the thread, where are all the complainers that surfaced when it was thought the HF band were to be 'inundated' with an influx of new general and extra licensees because of restructuring and the elimination of you know what.
Whats going to happen to the HF bands now? Why aren't all the former complainers in the general and extra classes doing any complaining?
I'll tell you one thing, something isn't right in the ham ranks, let alone the FCC, power companies, or the government.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AA6E on April 27, 2004
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I'm working on my comments on the FCC NPRM on BPL right now. Are you? Check www.arrl.org for info how.
I do talk about the poor shortwave listener, but I suspect there aren't that many "serious" SWLers in this country. (Tell me if I'm wrong.) By serious, I mean people who look for transmissions from Outer Mongolia and such.
I suspect most SWLs are casual, and listen to the BBC, Deutsche Welle, or some other big-time stations that come in at S9 minimum on 40 meters here. I'd be surprised if BPL was even noticeable to them.
-mse
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KG4YJR on April 27, 2004
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Budget cuts have forced many SW broadcasters to cut down on their North American/english broadcasts considerably or to eliminate them entirely. A lot of SW broadcasters are already changing to Internet streaming of their programs as their only format, therefore more demand for broadband.
Let's not forget too that George Bush is saying that every American home should have high speed Internet access by 2007.
73
Dave
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0RFD on April 27, 2004
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I was an SWL for several decades. So it pains me to say this. SWLs are not going to move this discussion one way or another. The FCC doesn't give a rat's behind about the audience. You ever hear the term "supply side"? Well that's what this Bushie FCC believes in. Even though the first Bush administration proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it doesn't work.
I think you should file comments with the FCC. I certainly will. But you shouldn't be too insulted if your status as a listener doesn't carry any weight. I mean if SW broadcasters were actually SELLING something, and we (the audience) were actually BUYING it, then we might have some stroke. If the people who TRANSMIT shortwave don't care enough to file comments, then it's hard to imagine that the people who simply listen to it for free would have any power at all, at least as far as the way this Administration thinks.
Money talks. If the SW broadcasters were making serious money off their activities, then they would have more status with this administration than you or me. But if they were making money, they wouldn't be on Shortwave, would they?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W4EWJ on April 27, 2004
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what are the propagation properties of BPL
on HF and what is the potential for interference
to Canada, Mexico, S. America?
Has the FCC received formal complaints from
Hams being interfered with in the test markets?
Has ARINC responded to the potential problem?
(Arinc provides HF SSB to inroute acft)
What is the position of the various US Govt
users of the HF spectrum, and the embassies
in DC who use HF (a lot)?
Is the Raleigh and Manassas markets being interfered
with by Hams?
Just some things I wonder about.
EWJ
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N5LB on April 27, 2004
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Regardless the politics the ONLY formal actionable item is for every interested party to submit their comments on the NPRM to the Commission. The window closes May 1 I think.
The ARRL has requested a grass roots effort be made to Congress and the White House. Its probably worth doing. It is an election year so we get to express our opinion in writing to the politicians and then we get to express them again at the polls.
Personally this matter is bad for some incumbents when I cast my vote in November.
What about you?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0RFD on April 27, 2004
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NLB Wrote:
> The window closes May 1 I think.
May 3.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N0FP on April 27, 2004
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Go to the ARRL website and check out the front page news about Bush's comments made in Minneapolis. Get those QSL cards flowing into the White House ASAP!
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KG4OHH on April 28, 2004
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I think that, If the FCC can change the rules for one set group of people, they also can change the other set at the same time, meaning for us ham's more RF power, Free Notch Filters for the HF band's, on call tech free of charge, even free internet, then well see how the people that cant even set a timer up on the VCR feel about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
================================================
Now for the real world:
Money talks & the truth walks
Along with our HF band's
Well thank you B.P.L, thanx a lot!
================================================
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KE1MB on April 28, 2004
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I am a nightly SWL. BPL will suck hands down. Maby my old R390A can hear thru it? I only have one objective right now. Get the 1kw mobile amp in the car!!! Notched out all the ham bands huh, well guys, let me give that a field test. Heck if i gotta raise my output power to legal limit just to talk to my buddy across town then that's the FCC's fault. I really cannot see how these people think they are not going see problems when the sunspot cycle comes back in.
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GET REAL
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by WPE9JRL on April 28, 2004
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SW Broadcasting (as we knew it) died about two decades ago. As soon as the Berlin Wall crumbled, so did the big SW powerhouses.
In case you haven't noticed, there is very little of SW Broadcasting left. Swiss Radio is pulling the plug on it's operation as we speak.
SW radio is a dead medium. BPL will just be the final nail in the coffin, as the patient died years ago.
Pat WPE9JRL
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by T32AI on April 28, 2004
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Heres an interesting story on filing NPRMs:
http://www.isp-planet.com/fixed_wireless/politics/2004/how_to_talk_to_the_fcc.html
73 - Radio Rick'ski (now in 9-land)
www.wh0ai.net
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0ABE on April 28, 2004
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OK…
Wouldn’t BPL in its current incarnation be considered a hacker’s paradise? BPL signals (interference) received on any conventional shortwave set could, in theory, along with a computer, interpret the information coming through. Don’t we as hams do pretty much the same thing with SSTV, RTTY, etc? The software can be obtained for free. Pirate broadcasters on the HF bands have added SSTV to their shows and they tell where to get the free software to interpret the pictures they send over the airwaves. As stated in another post, so much for Internet security. What I’m saying is this WILL be an issue with BPL as its users loose their identities, credit card companies as well will have a few things to say.
Now, let’s take it a bit further. Couldn’t a hacker with an HF transceiver, a laptop, and the proper software not only receive and interpret BPL signals but actually interact with the Internet? Now we are looking at some big money as software and music companies loose even more of their product to P2P file sharing/swapping. Hey, if it can be done with SSTV and PSK then it can be done with BPL, with devastating effects. Anyway, isn’t that what hackers are doing now with unsecured WiFi nodes? With BPL the hackers would be using their daddy’s FT-100D or maybe a simple home brewed 20-meter transceiver. This type of activity would be quick, easy, and untraceable. …AND it might mean an early death to BPL, either that or BPL providers will develop proper filtering and security.
I might be way out in left field with this. If I am, could somebody set me straight?
73 Mike KØABE
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AK7P on April 28, 2004
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Can you say "class action suit"? I have thousands of dollars in gear and labor invested in my amateur HF station and rendering it useless will cause me irrepairable harm according to the new wimp USA. I want to be compensated for all my investment and future loss of use. Where are the lawyers when you need them?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by DUALGATEMOSFET on April 28, 2004
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K1CJS said >>>On another note, and forgive me for saying this and dragging the old discussion into the thread, where are all the complainers that surfaced when it was thought the HF band were to be 'inundated' with an influx of new general and extra licensees because of restructuring and the elimination of you know what.
Whats going to happen to the HF bands now? Why aren't all the former complainers in the general and extra classes doing any complaining?<<<
The complainers are the no-codes like you. Its always the no-codes like you that stir up all the controversy. No-one mentioned code until you put your acetylene torch to the gasoline drum. Why? Envy. You are on the outside looking in and you don't like it. All the dissension was started by the no-codes. You admitted yourself that the Generals and Extras aren't complaining. It is you who is complaining. Keep on driving the wedge deeper and deeper between the factions. It is you, not BPL that will kill ham radio.
73 from DUALGATEMOSFET
aka
"The Epitaxial One"
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NE1Z on April 28, 2004
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It is a shame that shortwave is now condensing down to relays & internet streams. Reminds me of that Echolink crap!
Gone are the days of Radio Moscow on 11840, from Cuba, with 60Hz PL tone!
Bill
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AB5XZ on April 28, 2004
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I had a few minutes today to look at two documents:
1. From www.whitehouse.gov, the policy letter (initiative) that, among other things, talks about encouraging broadband deployment. I conclude that it is reasonable and rationale, because it says that BPL implementation must be done "responsibly". That's what will keep HF from getting destroyed by BPL.
2. From NTIA, the report we've been waiting for. The first volume of the report talks about why NTIA is involved in the BPL discussion, and gives lots of background on government HF requirements, then concludes that BPL needs to be subjected to more stringent standards than the rest of Part 15; that BPL needs to be power-controlled; that BPL needs to be constrained regionally in what frequencies it uses; that BPL disconnect from any power lines where it doesn't have customers; that BPL providers need to have precision identification of every BPL device, so it can be shut off if it's a problem.
I think this is a pretty reasonable approach overall. I commend NTIA for doing a good job on this task. I commend them also for mentioning (when nobody else in government will) the ARRL models, the ARRL information on other governments' BPL tests, and the effect on mobile HF receivers.
NTIA has *Real Engineers*, and not so many lawyers/politicians as the FCC. I do not say this to belittle the work that FCC's engineers do, but I think they are caught up more in bureaucracy than those in NTIA. It's kinda like the Challenger accident: "Take off your Engineer hat and put on your Manager hat for just a second, and tell us we shouldn't launch".
73TomAB5XZ
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WD5L on April 28, 2004
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There are a couple problems with the concern you aired regarding BPL security.
First, typical amateur radio rigs are narrow-band commmunications systems in comparison to BPL. These receivers would only receive a small portion of the signal which would cover several MHz of bandwidth.
A modified BPL modem would almost certainly be required to receive the signal and not an amateur radio transceiver.
Second, If the BPL provider doesn't encrypt the packets then the user almost certainly could. Many websites requiring exchange of crucial data like credit card numbers will use some form of encryption like RSA and use a 1028 bit key.
This would make it very hard but not impossible to get internet users' personal data.
Third, just as has been mentioned on the list you would have to have a strong signal in comparison to background noise or ham equipment. If a strong signal appears in the center of the BPL signal then the result will be garbage.
This is not to say that BPL users should relax. People are careless with their persoanl information in ordinary circumstances and it would be no different over BPL. A BPL customer would have to be skilled with encrypting their E-Mails and request some form if digital encryption from the BPL provider, if it is not already being used or if it is available as an option.
That said even cable modem based broadband internet access is not secure because its topology is essentially like a token ring network and anyone with packet analyzer software could read all the packets flowing by his node. And cable modem access is the preferred choice, at the moment, for high-speed internet access.
The bottom line is that it is much easier for a hacker to get data from a cable modem or by writing spyware to infect a victim's computer and sending that data through a mail server installed by the spyware.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K1CJS on April 28, 2004
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"The complainers are the no-codes like you. Its always the no-codes like you that stir up all the controversy. No-one mentioned code...."
Sorry pal, I won't bite. Besides, you mentioned code, I didn't. All I said is "you know what".
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KD5DFM on April 28, 2004
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right dont blame the FCC , blame Mr powels son . How did he get that position ???? , Why did he get that position ?????. What was Enron ?, a power company and dosent halaburton do a lot of utility work ????? ..-. ..- -. -. -.-- .. ... -. - .. -
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KD5DFM on April 28, 2004
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i just really think its sad that our country cna be bought by corporate greed and thats both sides of the house . why wont we wake up and vote all those congreemen who's been in office twice , out , and i think four years is also enough for any president . i wou;ld just once like to see a common man be in the congree . our founding fathers would turn in there grave on both partys .
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RE: GET REAL
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by KD5DFM on April 28, 2004
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"SW radio is a dead medium. BPL will just be'
as the "who' sang ... long live rock and short wave ;-)!!!!!
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N9OI on April 29, 2004
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I have been watching these comments with great interest but one point has received only minimal coverage. The fact is that we, operating normally and legally, will interfere with BPL. This one worries me a lot!
Picture this, my 20m SSB signal disrupts BPL for twenty of my neighbors and they call the power company to complain. The power company system checks out fine and the customer is told, "no problem here, do you see anyone with a ham radio antenna in your neighborhood, that's most likely the cause of the problem."
When the angry mob gathers at my doorstep demanding the end of my activities so they can have their internet access do you think that any of them will care that I did nothing wrong. This is a public relations battle that we will never win, especially if the FCC will not back us. One wonders if this might not be the power companies plan, to have public opinion put an end our rights so that we will not bother them.
I have to admit that I have been holding off on new equipment purchases until I see if our hobby will survive or I determine that I need to take up a new hobby.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WB8YQJ on April 29, 2004
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Our wonderful elected officials elected not to heed this either.
III. Conclusion.
For the reasons stated above, BPL systems radiating RF energy are likely to interfere with existing licensed radio services, including television broadcast bands.
http://www.nab.org/Newsroom/PressRel/Filings/BPLReplies82003.pdf
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N0RKX on April 29, 2004
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<<"Second, If the BPL provider doesn't encrypt the packets then the user almost certainly could. Many websites requiring exchange of crucial data like credit card numbers will use some form of encryption like RSA and use a 1028 bit key.">>
Maximum allowable encryption in the US on the web is 128 bit.
Anytime you allow network signals to "leak", the data on that network is vulnerable, be it a wireless or copper network. The BPL network will be even more vulnerable to hacking than the 802.11b WAP's are today. With 802.11b @ 2.4 Ghz your vulnerability is limited by short range, and if your smart, an encrypted access point. With 802.11b the signal between nodes is encrypted.
I guarantee the providers won't be doing the encryption which leaves it to barely aware Mom and Pop internet user. CC fraud on the internet is going to reach biblical proportions.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KR4BD on April 29, 2004
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I think the only answer is for all of us to legally light up our HF amplifiers. You know the law, use only as much power as necessary. With BPL, we will need more power to get through the noise. Nothing illegal on our part... The neighbors will love it!!!
Tom, KR4BD
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N5MZL on April 29, 2004
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After reading through this thread, I can only shake my head. For one thing, despite any mewlings from the usual "it's a Bush/Powell/Ashcroft/Halliburton/Enron/FBI/CIA/DAR plot to (fill in the blank)" crowd, it would not matter one scintilla who was in the White House or Congress, or even on the FCC board, as to whether or not BPL would have been proposed.
Like so many other things, BPL had it's origins with the Clinton/Gore crowd's talk of "universal Internet access", etc, before that e-vil and hated spawn of Satan, George W. Bush, ever got elected. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to check his tin hat, as it's screwed on just a tad too tight.
As several someones have already said, "Money talks and...", well you know the rest. Somebody, somewhere, thinks he can make money off this BPL junk, so they are going to give it a try. Will it succeed? Very unlikely.
Fact is, I have forgotten more about data communications and computer networking than most of you will ever know, and again, someone else has already put their finger on the Achilles' heel of BPL.
It's "wireless". That is, while it's interfering with us on HF, the same geeks who are currently cruising around in their "war cars" tapping into the wireless data networks, both home and office, that already exist will be out doing the very same thing with BPL.
Yes, encryption may slow them down, but it's not going to stop them, because any crypto scheme one geek can come up with, another will eventually figure out a way to break it. On a "wired" network, like cable, DSL, or fiber when it comes (and it will, and when it does, BPL will die a quick death because fiber will have orders of magnitude more bandwidth than BPL ever can), you are relatively safe in terms of data security.
But on a wireless network, no matter the type, you are vulnerable, 1024 bit encryption be d*mned. Only the Feds have what could be considered really bulletproof crypto, and it was established several years ago that they are not going to allow that in the public's hands, and for good reason (9/11, just for one good example).
As it is, BPL is vulnerable right out of the gate, because we are not the only service that can be adversely affected. Think about it. What is the biggest bane to our existence as hams, especially when living in an urban area? RFI/EMI problems with the neighbors. TVs, stereos, telephones(!); we've all run into it at one time or another.
And BPL is using HF, just as we are, only on a much wider range of frequencies. It will be very interesting to see what happens on THIS front, should BPL come to pass...:)
So by all means, let's write our letters, not failing to mention what the NTIA has already had to say about this, and generally remain vigilant. But let's keep things in perspective, too. This whole thing could still crash and burn very easily.
Something to think about...
73
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WD5L on April 30, 2004
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<<"Second, If the BPL provider doesn't encrypt the packets then the user almost certainly could. Many websites requiring exchange of crucial data like credit card numbers will use some form of encryption like RSA and use a 1028 bit key.">>
>Maximum allowable encryption in the US on the web is 128 bit. <
Granted. My mistake.
>Anytime you allow network signals to "leak", the data on that network is vulnerable, be it a wireless or copper network. The BPL network will be even more vulnerable to hacking than the 802.11b WAP's are today. With 802.11b @ 2.4 Ghz your vulnerability is limited by short range,<
BPL more vulnerable than 802.11b? You haven't seen hams with 2.4 GB hy-gain directional antennas then. They specifically seek out wireless hubs from high rise office buildings. Also, there are hams communicating with microwaves from distances of several hundre miles even at 10 GHz. I just got an E-mail last week from a former University classmate who did just that from a building in Dallas to another Ham in San Antonio.
>...and if your smart, an encrypted access point. With 802.11b the signal between nodes is encrypted. <
802.11b is only encrypted if Wireless Encryption Protocol (WEP) is enabled. Further if the broadcast option is turned on it will announce your wireless firwall/switched hub to the world.
>I guarantee the providers won't be doing the encryption which leaves it to barely aware Mom and Pop internet user.<
I agree.
>..CC fraud on the internet is going to reach biblical proportions<
How's that unless you're right up next to the powerlines. Remember this is a broadband signal, and just as others have pointed out, one out of place signal in that large swath of digital BPL bandwidth will corrupt the data. Further a hacker could expose their motives to the power company or law enforcement once they catch on to this method of access. It's still alot easier to install a keylogger or other spyware on the PC to collect the data. It would be, for the purpetrator, make it harder to be detected.
73,
Rick, WD5L
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AE6IP on April 30, 2004
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It is rather amazing how uninformed and out-of-date amateurs are about
information outside of their very narrowly focused interest in the
hobby. BPL seems to be the single issue which most demonstrates this
lack of information. Some of the below has already been pointed out,
but it's worth repeating.
Some random comments on the current group of offerings:
1) The "money talks, truth walks" conspiracy theory is rather naive,
especially as it always seems to neglect that BPL isn't a matter of
power companies versus hams; but rather a matter of power companies
trying to get into a market that is already full of money.
Suggestion: rather than feeling sorry for themselves, hams should
work to build alliances with the existing broadband providers who,
after all, have a stake in seing BPL fail.
2) The "barely set the clocks on their VCRs" argument is soooo last
millenium. Among the people you are speaking of, VCRs have long
since been replaced by PVRs, which get their time from satellites.
3) The history of early cable isn't relevant for two fairly obvious
reasons. First, the players this time are attempting to leverage
existing physical plant and capital to enter a market that
already exists. Second, said players aren't entering an empty
market. (About which, see point 1)
4) Fiber is *not* going to be the broadband answer. Consumer
broadband does not require enough bandwidth to justify the fiber
infrastructer costs, and such programs as are trying to do
consumer fiber broadband, such as Palo Alto, CA, are not doing well
economically, (or even technically)
5) There are some fairly significant technical problems for high
bandwidth wireless, as the few areas now experimenting with it are
discovering. In parts of the world where the wire-to-the-home
infrastructure doesn't exist, wide-area wireless can compete with
wired broadband, but not in areas where the existing physical plant
can be harnessed for wired broadband.
6) The "homeland security" argument for HF is stillborn. Outside of
the ARRL, there ain't nobody that takes amateur HF emergency
communication seriously. Oh, they find it useful some times, but
they're not going to go to bat for it as "critical" to homeland
security. Why? 'cuz emcom has, for the most part, bypassed amateur
HF.
7) For the people contemplating using their HF rigs and PCs to hack
the BPL system: fergitaboutit. You don't have the receive bandwidth
or PC power to do it. Remember, "B" is for *broad* band. If
you're going to try to crack BPL (which, by the way, is illegal,)
then do it with equipiment intended for BPL reception.
8) It is probably heart-warming to think that you can legally interfer
with BPL. On the other hand, it is probably not heart-warming to
realize that doing so will raise the ire of people who have much to
benefit and nothing to lose by solving the interference problem by
taking the ham bands away.
9) Blaming it on politicians, especially those already out of office
is probably also heart-warming, but also doesn't get anything done
to solve the problem.
10) To those who claim to have forgotten more about networking than
they ever knew, I would suggest looking into the history of the
distributed.net attack on RC5 before making comments that "any
crypto scheme one geek can come up with, another will eventually
figure out a way to break it". (Actually, the claim is probably
true, but strong crypto systems aren't designed by geeks, they're
designed by good cryptographers.) Or that only the Feds have
strong encryption.
But mostly, the thing to reaalize is that "BPL" doesn't necessarily
have to mean the systems currently being tested in the US. There are
other ways to do it, and it is most likely one of those will be the
technology settled upon.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AE6IP on April 30, 2004
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>> Maximum allowable encryption in the US on the web is 128 bit.
> Granted. My mistake.
I think you've gotten confused over the obsolete weak encryption
exportation rules. The OpenSSL documentation suggests 2048 as the
minimum key length for RSA, for example.
> BPL more vulnerable than 802.11b? You haven't seen hams with 2.4 GB
> hy-gain directional antennas then. They specifically seek out
> wireless hubs from high rise office buildings. Also, there are hams
> communicating with microwaves from distances of several hundre miles
> even at 10 GHz. I just got an E-mail last week from a former
> University classmate who did just that from a building in Dallas to
> another Ham in San Antonio.
Hams? Don't know about your kneck of the wood, but it's pretty common
for people who telecommute to us commercial outdooor antennas for
point-to-point access to their employer
> 802.11b is only encrypted if Wireless Encryption Protocol (WEP) is
> enabled.
802.11b WEP is broken. Sane people use SSH tunnels to avoid being
snooped. Paranoid people use things like the CISCO extentions to
802.11 to keep their WIFI lan private.
>> I guarantee the providers won't be doing the encryption which leaves
>> it to barely aware Mom and Pop internet user.
> I agree.
connectivity providers won't encrypt. There are good reasons for not
doing so. However, most sensitive data will (continue to) be
encrypted, because the commercial entities don't want to enterain the
liability risk.
>>..CC fraud on the internet is going to reach biblical proportions
is that in cubits?
> How's that unless you're right up next to the powerlines. Remember
> this is a broadband signal, and just as others have pointed out, one
> out of place signal in that large swath of digital BPL bandwidth
> will corrupt the data.
I dunno about you, but if I were going to attack BPL, I'd attack it
passively, trying to cop credit card numbers and such like, and then
use those numbers, well, in ways that are hard to trace and shouldn't
be described in public.
Good thing I'm too ethical to do anything like that. ;)
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KE2IV on April 30, 2004
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If I were to think only of myself as a Ham Radio operator, I would vehemently oppose BPL.
But life isn't so simple, is it?
My wife and I are fortunate enough to own 3 homes. One, our original, is in upstate NY and, remote as it might seem, I have DSL access there.
We also maintain a condo in New York City where, believe it or not, my ISP cannot offer DSL and I'm loathe to switch to another (i.e. the local phone company) who can. So I endure dial up from this location.
Our third abode is in Tucson, AZ. Since we are just now establishing our presence there and making it a home, we do not have any landline phone service. Instead, while there we use our cell phones - and via them now have web access (at 250kb/sec).
Having such a setup I have come to realize that I really will never need landline phone service in Tucson. But then again, I will always need electricity and want web access.
So, call me a sell out if you want, but if and when Tucson Electric offers BPL service - I'm there. It will save me my cell minutes and "free" me from wondering if it's past 9PM before I go online.
Oh, BTW, as you might expect, the CCR's prevent me from putting up any kind of real antenna for the low bands - so what will I lose with BPL anyway?
I know that BPL is likely to cripple HF communications but - you gotta do what you gotta do - you know what I'm talkin' about?
Now, imagine if over the past twenty or so years we hams had grown our ranks into the millions by dumping CW and welcoming new HF users...ooops - that a whole different issue!
73,
George
KE2IV
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WB8YQJ on April 30, 2004
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George,
I sure hope you get your BPL at that umpteenth QTH you have in wherever. It is *SO* worth selling out all your ham radio friends and ruining the 2-80Mhz natural resource we call HF for every other service (including emergency rescue) in the process. doh!
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WD5L on April 30, 2004
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>>>..CC fraud on the internet is going to reach biblical proportions
If you look back at N0RKX I think you will find that he quoted that statement not me. Frankley there are easier ways and targets then hacking in through BPL. Forutnately for me, as well, I am also ethical enough not to do that.
>is that in cubits? <
Ask N0RKX.
73,
WD5L
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W6TH on April 30, 2004
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Seems many are blaming the F.C.C, President Bush, his son, Colin Powel and many others, but who is and are the real trouble makers? The people that started this BPL thing?
Blame and put the blame on those folks that voted for Clinton and
Gore as look back when this was initiated and already passed with no knowledge to you. When you voted for Clinton and Gore combination, you voted for BPL. I wonder how many shares of stock that Clinton and Gore will have if and when this goes through?
Look back and see what the first moves were: A different sytem for medical care and the offering of the BPL. You voters were deceived and better wise up on you next voting.
I told all that with the ARRL to watch you back, well you didn't.
.:
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NN6EE on April 30, 2004
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Gentlemen,
It's kind of hard to understand with all the potential problems that BPL will cause as well as the tremendous amount of money that will be required of that new industry as well as the probable litigation that will follow from various citizens as well as multiple organizations can they (BPL) really afford it in the long-run?
Is it actually worth all the potential hassles to all involved?
Realistically it's just not worth it!!!
Regards,
Jim/nn6ee
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N0RKX on April 30, 2004
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> BPL more vulnerable than 802.11b? You haven't seen hams with 2.4 GB
> hy-gain directional antennas then. They specifically seek out
> wireless hubs from high rise office buildings. Also, there are hams
> communicating with microwaves from distances of several hundre miles
> even at 10 GHz. I just got an E-mail last week from a former
> University classmate who did just that from a building in Dallas to
> another Ham in San Antonio.
My point was BPL is flawed technology. There are better, more secure, and profitable ways to supply broadband access. BPL isn't being driven by technology, security, or economics. It's the tired old "chicken in every pot" BS that was swallowed hook line and sinker two generations ago.
I guess we need to decide as a country whether it's good policy to disrupt an valuable national resource in HF communications for the sake of providing broadband internet, which is 85% advertisement anyway, to 10% of the population.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NN6EE on April 30, 2004
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RKX,
BRAVO!!! You HIT the "nail" right on the proverbial head!!!
It's incredible that BUSH and his Lackies would want to continue with "ARCHAIC" technology in the form of BPL!!!
Hey 'BUSHIE" what's happening is "WIRELESS" not WIRES
Dummie!!!
:-)))
ee
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NL7W on April 30, 2004
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The current BPL situation is a sad state of affairs. In the end, we may have to "go digital" ourselves on the HF bands, voice and all.
Just wouldn't it be nice if your software defined computer with a RF front-end, found a relatively clear chunk of bandwidth around a radio circuit's predetermined frequency of optimum transmission, determined the best modulation scheme, and connected with the radio at the far end? Gee, then you wouldn't have to think about, as well as listen to much of anything other than the nice, clear, and qrm and qrn free voice, text or video on a screen.
Quick, painless easy to use - with little thought involved... Just what the no-coder's want, right?
73.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by K0BKL on April 30, 2004
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We are supposed to use the minimum power neccessary to communicate, but if it takes a kilowatt for your buddy to hear you across town, have at it, and if that jams the BPL, too bad!
75 meter crosstown qso's at 1500 pep anyone?
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KI6HT on April 30, 2004
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As ham radio is under siege by BPl I find it amazing that peeople who live in another reality would blame Clinton/Gore for what the FCC has done to usAre you so blinded by your extremist ideology that you can not see you are being SCREWED?Aside from exercising your 1st amendment rights maybe hams should exercise their 2nd amendment rights on the nearest power pole after the sun goes down
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KE2IV on April 30, 2004
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WB8YQJ,
OM - I think you missed my point.
We hams are a small number of folks (600,000 or so at best in a nation of 310,000,000+).
With such numbers (or lack thereof) we hams are delusional if we think we can stop BPL. We're not even a speed bump for the juggernaut of $$ behind BPL.
We might have had a chance if there were many more of us....but for years now, by clinging to CW as a key requirement for someone to become a ham, we've ensured that generations of potential hams are uninterested in joining our ranks.
When we should have been welcoming - we spent our time repelling.
We have sown, and now we reap - if perhaps a bitter harvest.
As the old saying goes: Be careful what you wish for; for you may acutally get it. We still have sacrosanct CW bands on frequencies that may soon be unusable!
And as I say, I am now just an old selfish codger - so bring on BPL - I need broadband these days much more than any HF band!
Thanks for your comments.
73,
George
KE2IV
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KI6HT on April 30, 2004
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AhI knew if I looked long enough I would find a comment from Bush's friend and lobbyist for BPL NE1Z11M not open tonight?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AE6IP on April 30, 2004
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> It's the tired old "chicken in every pot" BS that
> was swallowed hook line and sinker two generations
> ago.
Um, that 'tired old' argument was a promise that no American would go hungry.
I wonder how long it'll be before the revisionists declare the great depression never happened.
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KI6HT on April 30, 2004
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I'm sorryI take it all backNo problemLife is wonderfulDon't woory be happy
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N2CTZ on May 1, 2004
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its time for hams and the arrl to put pressure on the elected officials otherwise we will cease to exist.
hey arrl people why the quiet-if bpl comes arrl will no longer exist and you guys will have to get real jobs!
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AC7KZ on May 1, 2004
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Yep I feel and hope that bpl will crumble under it's own weight. The cost of deploying such a venture is astronomical.
Right now I can get dsl for $15.00 a month through the phone company. Power companies will have to have the price at a much lower rate to snag customers from the phone companies.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W6TH on May 1, 2004
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KI6HT
You are not very much informed, but Gore the army signal corp photographer was the big cheese and full control of the FCC. He claims he was the figure head of the internet and taught Gates a few things. Do you believe this or are you still in the clouds as to world affairs?
Furthermore, I don't believe this BPL will amount to anything as Clinton and Gore are looking for an easier way of life, you know welfare.
.:
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WB8YQJ on May 1, 2004
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>>> OM - I think you missed my point.
No George, I got your point 100%
Let's forget ham radio for a minute and focus on any one of the other services that use HF for the world good. Emergency services, SWL broadcasts, aviation.
Why should these services suffer for a flawed connection to your third home?
Read this response by CQ magazine to the NPRM George. It will give you an idea of the implications of BPL that go far beyond ham radio.
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516182523
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WB8YQJ,
OM - I think you missed my point.
We hams are a small number of folks (600,000 or so at best in a nation of 310,000,000+).
With such numbers (or lack thereof) we hams are delusional if we think we can stop BPL. We're not even a speed bump for the juggernaut of $$ behind BPL.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W6TH on May 1, 2004
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OK
OK
Now I believe this was the questiuon asked on this thread, right?
Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
In my honest opinion, no I do not believe so.
As long as we have eBAY, what need do we have for anything else.
.:
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by NN2G on May 2, 2004
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I am surprised that no one has said that BPL could end up being a National Security Issue.
We hams are not the only ones who communicate on the HF bands. In addition to broadcasters, the military uses the HF bands too. That alone is reason not to fool with the HF band. What has been the military stance on BPL? What have the MARS operators said about BPL?
What about harmonics from BPL, surely that will be another issue within itself.
Ham radio ops have helped saved lives many times in the past during local weather/ storm related emergencies. If the communications could not be received on the other end due to BPL, then is this not then a possible life threatening issue?
So its going to boil down to either Joe Sixpack being able to surfing the net for the latest sports scores or saving lives in some emergency. Which is more important?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W6TH on May 2, 2004
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-----------------------------------------
That is a thing of the past. same as cw, its History. So is saving lives and property.
------------------------------------------
Big busines is the "IN" thing. The country must catch up. The country is falling behind.
Money the "root of all evil".
.:
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N9WB on May 3, 2004
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NN2G Wrote:
So its going to boil down to either Joe Six-pack being able to surfing the net for the latest sports scores or saving lives in some emergency. Which is more important?
...............
Short Quiz
(Q)Which is more important?
Choices:
(1) Joe Six-pack and the surfers.
(2) Saving lives in an emergency.
(3) Whatever makes the billionaires money.
Correct Answer: Choice 3
N9WB
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by N3NL on May 3, 2004
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As is pointed out in a news article elsewhere on eham,
short wave listeners have legal standing to file
complaints about BPL interference. Therefore, the
BPL operator will have to clear both the ham bands and
the 3 MHz of short wave broadcast spectrum of BPL
noise.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WB8YQJ on May 5, 2004
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Boeing and IEEE NOI Comments
Boeing
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=65\16183088
IEEE
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=65\16183235
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KA4KOE on May 5, 2004
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IEEE anb Boeing are heavyweights. Read the difference in opinions between the BellSouth and ATT postings...its humorous. However, it won't be funny at all it BPL rolls out and there is a crash somewhere.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WA3KYY on May 7, 2004
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An even more humorous comment was from the National Energy Manufactureres Association. They are claiming the BPL is not even RF on the wires but modulated electricity and except for Part 15 emmisions, should not even be subject to FCC regulation!
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AB5XZ on May 7, 2004
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The BPL operator, to avoid interference complaints, will have to "notch out" at least the following:
1. Amateur bands 160m to 6m, and any new ones the FCC allocates.
2. SW broadcast bands.
3. ALL of the 59,000 US Govt allocations.
4. Aircraft HF channels
5. Marine HF channels
6. State and local public safety allocations
7. WWV, WWVH
And it won't be enough just to listen for a local transmitter (duh!).
73Tom
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KB2FCV on May 7, 2004
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It's sad to say, but if BPL really takes off, I feel HF will legally be taken away from us. As stated, we are 600,000 in a population of 300,000,000.. not even a speed bump. Turning on our amplifiers will only quicken the end of the HF spectrum for us. I intend on enjoying HF while it lasts before BPL takes over.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AB5XZ on May 7, 2004
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I enjoyed reading the Boeing comment. Quite plain-spoken, and realistic.
Question:
When is a point source not a point source?
Answer:
When a BPL proponent calls it a point source, it might have a zillion miles of wire connected to it, but it won't radiate, for sure.
Question:
When is there true Broadband competition in an area?
Answer:
When the power company gets to have a monopoly.
Question:
When is something an "unfounded speculation", with no basis in fact?
Answer:
Whenever a BPL lawyer sees some engineering test results.
Question:
Why did the BPL lobbyist cross the road?
Answer:
Say again? I can't understand you because of the noise!
Question:
When does the FCC read its own rules?
Answer:
When it wants to, and not before, and maybe not ever.
With all *due* respect, of course.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W1RFI on May 8, 2004
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> Since BPL radiation from power lines is presumably
> the problem with interference, I'm hoping that the
> converse is true: That BPL will be disrupted by
> normal, authorized use of ham frequencies.
That is a social problem of immense proportions. When telephones pick up interference from amateur transmissions, the FCC regs are on our side. Still, that is a difficult conversation to have with a neighbor. Hams who get embroiled with that issue are in for a nightmare.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W1RFI on May 8, 2004
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> Initial notching and filtering to avoid ham bands
> and broadcast bands will be replaced by legal
> wrangling and threats of lawsuit.
The legal wrangling is already happening, and right now, this industry is on its best behavior. See the latest Raleigh, NC stories at http://www.arrl.org/bpl and read some of the BPL-industry comments to the FCC NPRM at http://www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/NPRM_hyperlinks.html.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W1RFI on May 8, 2004
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> Well, for many years now we have paid the ARRL to
> be "our voice" in Washington. But it seems it has
> done no good.
The FCC started out their Notice of Inquiry seeking to remove unneccessary restrictions on BPL that was already permitted under Part 15 rules. The Notice of Proposed Rulemaking removed no restrictions, but in recognition of the interference potential of BPL, it added a number of proposed requirements to BPL that are not mandated for any other unintentional emitter. The NTIA report, outlining interference to several hundred meters distance for ground stations, cited ARRL's earlier findings as being important to their work.
There is still work to be done, but the work done so far has not been to no effect.
> I wonder if any difference would have been made if
> all the money collected by the ARRL had been spent
> on promoting amateur radio, instead of defending it.
The approximately $300,000 raised in the BPL fundraising effort could buy one short prime-time advertisiment on national television.
ARRL has done a lot to promote amateur radio in other areas. Do you have any ideas that the League could use to do more? They will probably have costs, so can you also offer how you think they can be funded, or what present ARRL programs should be scrapped to allow them to be done with existing resources?
Ed Hare,
W1RFI
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W1RFI on May 8, 2004
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> I suspect most SWLs are casual, and listen to the
> BBC, Deutsche Welle, or some other big-time stations > that come in at S9 minimum on 40 meters here. I'd be > surprised if BPL was even noticeable to them.
BPL signals have been reported as being S9 to has high as S9+40 dB. They will affect shortwave broadcast reception.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by W1RFI on May 8, 2004
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> I think the only answer is for all of us to legally
> light up our HF amplifiers. You know the law, use
> only as much power as necessary. With BPL, we will
> need more power to get through the noise. Nothing
> illegal on our part... The neighbors will love it!!!
Calculations show that BPL could be as much as 60 dB higher than the otherwise quiet ambient noise level in the clear parts of HF amateur bands. That 100 watt station you are talking to would have to increase his power by 60 dB. Do the math. :-)
73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
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Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by WA2DYA on May 8, 2004
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The way I see it, interference to Ham HF bands is not as problematic as Ham interference to BPL. BPL subscribers will complain about the Ham radio operator next door blocking access to their internet connection. An explanation that under Part 15, they must accept interference will neither be acceptable or understood by someone paying good money for a broadband connection.
By now, we all know the Government is not on our side on BPL issues. The FCC will act. Will 'Quiet Hours' return?
--- CHAS WA2DYA
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AC0X on May 8, 2004
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KE2IV wrote:
>And as I say, I am now just an old selfish codger -
>so bring on BPL - I need broadband these days much
>more than any HF band!
So you'll even take a dirty, slow technology to get it?
You're one of those people who empties their ashtrays on the street, pees on the side of the road, and dumps your leftover house chemicals in the local sewer system, too, aren't you?
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by AC0X on May 8, 2004
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W6TH wrote:
>Blame and put the blame on those folks that voted for
>Clinton and Gore as look back when this was initiated
>and already passed with no knowledge to you.
What do you mean "passed"? Do you mean rules were set up to allow this? Funny, I don't remember seeing any NPRM about this during the Clinton years.
>Look back and see what the first moves were: A
>different sytem for medical care and the offering of
>the BPL.
Again, I don't remember Clinton "offering the BPL", promoting it, or even talking about. Only W and his political apointees talk about BPL. Or are you blaming Clinton because of his initiatives to promote Broadband Internet access in general? Well, first, in case you didn't know, broadband doesn't always mean BPL. And to blame someone who promotes Broadband for BPL is like blaming the guy who invented asphalt for the kid who plays loud music while driving by your house.
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RE: Will BPL Kill The Shortwave Spectrum?
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by KT4XF on May 25, 2004
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As KR4BD & K0BKL pointed out, all of us using the full 1500W will be able to QSO; as W1RFI pointed out, it wont be enuff!!!
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