HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
Richy Russo (KB2CPW)
on
May 11, 2004
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Hi Rich here,
I've come up with a real neat idea but I am relying on the fine members of eHam to produce the hardware (since I am too stupid to do that myself.) Anyway, I would like to create an interface that will allow the transmission of amateur RF over power lines, hence "HPL technology" obviously meaning >>>hamming over power lines<<< :-p
Just think, no limits to the amount of power you could run (with a proper RF to AC mains interface) and since it's on a closed system, there may not be any rules regarding mode or band!!! Think of the pileups you will break running that old 8 foot tall Collins military 20-KW amp into your fuse box for an added kick!
As we know, power lines can carry a signal quite far and since its a "closed system" and the power people already >>>>worked out the bugs<<<< And I am SURE they wont mind sharing the technology with us hams.
Ham Heaven!!! No lousy covenants, silly antenna restrictions, unsightly towers or a homeowners association to deal with. No smelly coax or cables to be run around the house. The wife will be thrilled with this exciting new way of hamming! In fact, it gives grid squares and phased antennas a whole new meaning…
The beauty of this is that the power companies admitted that the system is flawless, the FCC's distinguished Mr. Powell (a well known engineer for many years and electronics inventor BTW, I forget his call sign... Please remind me…) agrees with them 100 percent and hams are assured and should not fear any problems with the up and coming BPL system.
In short this means >>>>no interference<<<< on our precious ham bands!!!
For those fuddy duddies not willing to move into the 21st century of ham radio, you will still have the old way of operation available to you. But this is just the boost Amateur radio needed, new technology and more spectrum thru our AC outlets. We can now combine our HF gear with our computers so we can work that net and log 'em at the same time. Want to go portable, just find an outlet somewhere and set up shop…
I sure hope that W4RT, MFJ and some of the other manufacturers can supply an interface allowing us to spread our amateur good will thru the walls of America.
I hope to hear you soon on HPL...
73 and 60hz to you and your families…
N2ZD
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by AD7DB on May 11, 2004
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I remember hearing this story, might be urban legend, maybe not. Radio Shack store managers were supposedly told not to sell any PL-259 to F-connector adapters. If anyone came in wanting to buy one they were supposed to ask them what they intended to use it for, and to refuse to sell the item if the answer was anything like this:
"I heard you can connect your CB to the cable TV line and talk all over the city!"
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by K3DML on May 11, 2004
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What a good idea! Too bad, I already bought 10 acres on a mountain top for my ham radio retirement years. I surely hope BPL doesn't spoil it for me. If it does, I can always QSO with my XYL.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KT8K on May 11, 2004
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I love it!
I remember decades ago a friend of mine was operating on 160 kHz VLF and made a coupler so he could use the power lines from his house out to the next transformer as his antenna. It wasn't strictly legal, unfortunately, since on that band you are only permitted a 50 foot antenna to go with the (I think) 1 watt output power limit, but he said it worked. There's no antenna length limit on amateur radio, so let's get to it! (Well, watch out for RFI issues with your neighbors, but ... other than that ...)
73 de kt8k - Tim
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N8BOA on May 11, 2004
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Great idea I think I will start with spark gap xmiter using cw and I can weld up a new boat lift in 3 qso or less 60hz hum sounds good
N8BOA
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WA4CCH on May 11, 2004
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It's realy not oil coated coax it's SWR grease you can buy it at any TRUCK STOP and it does have a foul smell somewhat like CHICKEN BURNING AKA C B
CHUCK
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RE: BS is Coming from a Website Near You!
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by K4RAF on May 11, 2004
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This is all cute & funny until some dope fries himself trying it...
Afterall, we all know testing for technical ability has been abandoned in exchange for feel-good "incentive" issues.
You screw up just once & they will easily find the charcoal!
We could honestly do better without this !#&*&%#!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N0MLR on May 11, 2004
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As I have already posted in a topic dealing with Pirate AM transmitters I have used this exact method back when I was 11. I use to feed the homebrew AM Transmitter thru a Cap into the main. It does indeed make a great antenna, my 1/2 watt signal could be heard all over town LOL. It does work.
Maybe we could work with the suppliers of the BPL network so that their repeaters won't be over driven and shut down when our 5 to 1500 watt signals are impressed on the power grid. But we may only need a watt or two if the system is set up right.
Theres no harmful radiation as the BPL engineers and power company have said so how can anyone object?
Hmm ??
;o)
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N0MLR on May 11, 2004
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Oh and anyone trying to hook up to the power line better know how to do it correctly or you can be killed!
Not just any cap will do!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N5LB on May 11, 2004
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Actually you missed one of the finer points. Mr. Powell, et.al. have, by NOI/NPRM/RM, suspended all known laws of electromagnetism. Hence, whether the system is open or closed is irrelevent.
By political contrivance all interference has been summarily mitigated. However, the laws of reciprocity are under review in the event Maxwell should attempt a comeback.
The Commission, under the brilliant scientific leadership of Mr. Powell, et. al. have redefined E cross H and turned it over to the Federal Highway Administration for signage. E cross H is no longer required in his enlightened leadership of the Commission.
Mr. Powell, et. al. is presently directing his wits to the matter of unlicensed telepathy, intending to allow a substantial increase in the authorized bandwidth and power, and the heck with licensed users. According to Powell, "cognitive cognition will make all of us one, even in rural areas poorly served by existing telepaths".
Its a Brave New World, lets poke some fun before the thought police close in on our IP addresses.
Thanks
Cynically
N5LB
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KG5JJ on May 11, 2004
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Well...there's just something about all the appliances and electronics in the house sharing the RF that "just doesn't do it for me". ;-}
I agree with an earlier post; suggesting such a thing (even in jest) might leave one open litigous consequences.
There are many, who are a few grapes shy of a fruit salad, who would try such things...
73 KG5JJ (Mike)
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N6ORS on May 11, 2004
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When you fire up the AC line and your toaster starts
resonating it will give a whole new meaning to the term
appliance operator.
73
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KF6JZC on May 11, 2004
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These are funny posts. However, on the serious side, there are things that we use everyday that to me seems like they would interfere with BPL. Items such as:
1. BC10 appliance and lamp controllers
2. Electric mixers or any variable speed electric motor.
3. Flourescent lights
4. Computers
5. Lamp dimmers
I am sure that there are more items that would also send noise in to the electrical wiring. In the past, these kinds of noise generators were filtered at the closest power transformer to your house. But with BPL, the transformers will be bypassed to allow higher frequencies generated by BPL to pass. These are the kinds of things we as hams should be thinking about.
Also, has anyone thought of the idea of designing a filter that can be plugged into the outlet that might cause sever attenuation to the BPL signal? I would think that it would fairly simple. After all, aren't we suppose to help in eliminating interference.
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5DFM on May 11, 2004
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its bad enough i have to put up with my neighbors , i need not transmit electric energy to light up there house with and lower there energy bills while increasing mine ;-P
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by NJ1K on May 11, 2004
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>>>Oh and anyone trying to hook up to the power line >>>better know how to do it correctly or you can be >>>killed!
>>>Not just any cap will do!
Originally I was thinking of using a Mountain Dew cap seeing as how these are a dime a dozen at ham fests but I soon realized it should be a Dr. Pepper cap...
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5DFM on May 11, 2004
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160 kHz VLF and made a coupler so he could use the power lines from his house out to the next transformer as his antenna. ! (Well, watch out for RFI issues with , but ... other than that ...)
73 de kt8k - Tim
um also be careful not to get fried ;-P how about cutting the main wire an holding it a few inches apart and making very large spark gap hi hi
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5DFM on May 11, 2004
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right , and now that kaPowels ok'd the power lines for transmitting signals with out fear of interfearence . well whats good for the bpl is even better for hams ;-) hook up a tuner and aaaaaaway we go ;-P hi hi
>Actually you missed one of the finer points. Mr. >Powell, et.al. have, by NOI/NPRM/RM, suspended all >known laws of electromagnetism. Hence, whether the >system is open or closed is irrelevent
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KF7CG on May 11, 2004
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To cause extreme attenuation of BPL frequencies on your in home power lines use a bunch of emi/rfi filtered line surge protectors. These things contain pi section filters that essentially short out the line for RF signals.
Another source of attenuation is the emi/rfi power connector in the back of every computer power supply. These are again pi section filters designed to stop switching power supply hash from getting on the powerline from the computer and to keep powerline hash from interfering with the operation of the supply.
Isn't it interesting, the more computers (at least desk tops) in a house the more a BPL signal will be attenuated. Enough of these devices and you have BPL dead spots strung along the power wiring.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5DFM on May 11, 2004
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even better , a nice new lumberjack axe . last night my local utility hd a black out and not a cloud in the sky . and you exspect them to fight interfeance this is a very unpopulated area
> However, on the serious side, there are things that >we use everyday that to me seems like they would >interfere with BPL. Items such as:
>1. BC10 appliance and lamp controllers
>2. Electric mixers or any variable
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5DFM on May 11, 2004
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i was thinking skull cap ;-P
>Originally I was thinking of using a Mountain Dew cap >seeing as how these are a dime a dozen at ham fests >but I soon realized it should be a Dr. Pepper cap...
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by W2BLC on May 11, 2004
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If memory serves me right, some work was done on sending signals via powerline during WWII. Remember, ham radio was outlawed during WW2 - hence, the tries at powerline propogation.
Seems to me there was some write-ups in the handbooks of the period. Or perhaps, it was in the magazines of the period that carried the articles.
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by W4XKE on May 11, 2004
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Several of us already communicate over the power lines. We bought the Radio Shack intercom units and the XYL can talk to us on any electrical outlet that has a common connection to the main power transformer. My shack is about 300 feet from the house and it works great out there. Just change the mode and you can work DX, HI HI. Johnny W4XKE
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WD8DKB on May 11, 2004
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I was under the impression that BPL signals can radiate from the power line itself much like an antenna. If we installed a filter at our a/c outlet it would stop the signal from coming into the shack from the outlet but our antennas would still pickup the interference from the BPL signal. Is this true or am I mistaken? 73 Max
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD5ALU on May 11, 2004
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"I heard you can connect your CB to the cable TV line and talk all over the city!"
I've been trying to figure out how I could get an antenna for 160 meters. What a great idea. Thanks.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KD7KFQ on May 12, 2004
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I love it, that's hillarious.. and so well written.. good job..
Jen
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WA4ET on May 12, 2004
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SIGN me up,, I am ready for a new mode. Maybe this is the way to fight BPL. Its unregulated, so what the hell, if we walk on them, its tit, for tat
;D OH YA !!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WA4FKI on May 12, 2004
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Outstanding idea, why not try it? How far can one transmit, can we work DX via power line. Would there be certificates for working all states?
Just think, no unsightly outside antennas. Could my old tube type radio be converted to work HPL? What frequencies could be used with HPL?
If we run high power would it effect the Watt Hour Meter then too would standing waves appear on the service entrance cable.
Wounderful idea, all the inventor hams had better get their heads gogether and start work. Its a good time to do this because of the Sun Spot Cycle. This mode of communications would not be effected by the Solar Cycle.
Finally, would there be a special license be required by the FCC. Would there be a CB portion also..?
Love the idea, like one ham said lets research the communications methods used during WW2. Gosh, WAS-HPL.
73's
Bill
WA4FKI
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KG4WRQ on May 12, 2004
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re: The dangers of getting fried, turning to charcoal, etc.
Hey, sacrifices have to be made. And my hat is off to those of you that make the supreme sacrifice for the rest of us.
- Tom
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WA4FKI on May 12, 2004
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Good Morning Again, found this on the Internet and thought it may be of intrest, just another HPL building block.
Read the text at:
http://www.collegebroadcasters.org/cctech/CBICarrierCurrentTheory.pdf
73's
WA4FKI
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KT8K on May 12, 2004
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I'm pretty sure my friend on 160 kHz was using inductive coupling to his power line, not capacitive coupling. That way he didn't have to breach any insulation or connect to anything "hot". He just wound enough turns of insulated hookup wire around the insulated power lines coming into his house to couple to it.
I was about to mention, also, that my local university (U of Mich) used to use carrier current to broadcast the student AM station into the dorms, which are spread all over town. I never learned how their system worked, and don't know if they are still doing it, but it is an interesting topic nonetheless, made even moreso under threat of BPL interference.
Hope to catch you on the 60-Hz-coupled bands!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by K4CMD on May 12, 2004
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Er, HPL doesn't need all that hardware.
We'll be "capacitively coupling" our signals into the unshielded power lines as soon as BPL becomes active in our respective communities.
Talk about a free service! It works both ways, Mr. Power Company!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KI6YN on May 12, 2004
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I have always preferred QRP, but will use the full 100 watts if cndx pr. With BPL, I'm considering purchasing a linear! One extreme to the other but I shall fight BPL if and when it causes QRM. There will be no negotiations, if BPL is legal, then so is HPL. It is not a technically challenging thing to couple into the power lines. I wonder if I can couple phase phase ( i.e. 220) and then have a balanced antenna! Only kidding. But this will be a war and we will win. There is enough bandwidth on the telephone lines with DSL or cable. Powell is just another puppet of big business and a Bush stooge.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N6KEK on May 12, 2004
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Very good article. Quite entertaining and original.
Bob
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by AD5GX on May 12, 2004
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I've always used the power outlet for an antenna. Isn't that what everyone already does?
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by G0GQK on May 12, 2004
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Doing this would really get the power providers wound up, but from what I have read there would be no need.
It would seem that RF wipes out the system, which would make it very difficult to sell to PC users anyway.
Cheer up lads and have another QSO !
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by NN6EE on May 12, 2004
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I seem to recall my Uncle (SK-W6EE) mentioning that he and some of his Buddies at the start of WW2, since Amateurs were no longer able to transmit over the airwaves, used the AC lines to transmit readable signals to each other in the same neighborhood, though I might be off-base on this one but it seems logical that you could do it!!!
Are there any WW2 guys out here???
Jim/ee
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KE4ZHN on May 12, 2004
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Cool! This gives a whole new meaning to "putting some fire in the wire"!
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by W4AMP on May 12, 2004
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I'm still working on my WALEO award. Worked all low earth orbiting satellites. And don't forget that there are UPS qso's to be had on 220. And if BPL wins? Touchlamps people, lots of touchlamps. Thousands, millions.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KF7CG on May 12, 2004
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Inductive coupling to the line will work best. Like the clamp-on ammeters that electricians use.
No direct connection to the line just induce the signal and let it go.
WARNING BAD PUN COMING!
This tactic should induce the BPL peoples to change some of their operation.
HPL should stand for H field coupling.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by K1CJS on May 12, 2004
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Gee, I didn't know it was April 1st again!
Also, how about microwave ovens? They generate a low power high frequency signal--how about just finding a way to bypass the noise filter and send out the result? Hey, we may be looking at Kentucky Fried Computers! :-)
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N2FZ on May 12, 2004
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To add to w2blc and nn6ee comments. I think if you look in a WWII era handbook (I cant find mine) you will find out what it was and how to do it. I believe it was audio only, not RF and good for a couple of miles down the power line.
Bill n2fz
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by W5ONV on May 12, 2004
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When I was 12 or 13 years old I often used our cable TV coax as my antenna for my 5 watt CB radio. It worked very well for transmitting but I would always get a hum on several of the 23 channels while receiving. I didn't know any better back then.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by KL7IPV on May 13, 2004
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Since this subject really centers around the FCC and it's members, the cap we should be using that they would understand would be a "DUNCE CAP."
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N6PUO on May 13, 2004
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There was a fellow a while back doing business as "Dovetronics" & was selling an antenna tuner/antenna that was designed to do just what this thread is about, radiate over the power lines. I looked for his web site today but can't find it anymore. I think he was in Florida?? Some of the older hams will remember his company as he was making stuff for older rigs & the military.
Darn...wish I could find his web site as it was an interesting gadget.
Anyone else remember him or the tuner?
Greg...
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RE: BS is Coming from a Website Near You!
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by W9RPE on May 13, 2004
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""This is all cute & funny until some dope fries himself trying it...""
I am all for drying up the shallow end of the gene pool. Let the pluggin' comence!!!
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by WA7NCL on May 14, 2004
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We should use the latest spread spectrum modulation. That way we will not interfere with any narrow band emitters like SW broadcast and commercial broadcast. The public will appreciate our couresty and concern for them.
If they do have the occasional interference problem, we can refer them to the FCC for a timely resolution of the problem.
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RE: HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N8XD on May 18, 2004
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N60RS wrote..
>>When you fire up the AC line and your
>> toaster starts resonating it will give
>> a whole new meaning to the term
>> appliance operator.
Oh that is really funny! :) I'm waiting for the new BPL Internet aware tosters that can get a telemarketer on the phone to sell a new one to you -- just before it's built in lifetime timer expires.
Tele: "Hello, your toaster is going to expire in an hour, would you like to buy a new one?"
User: "Uh, how do you know?"
Tele: "The toaster told us your warranty was up -- through the internet."
User: "Ok, since it's going to break, I'll take one"
Tele: "Thanks, we've preshipped it to arrive today so you won't miss your 7:00 Toast."
User: "How did you know I have toast every day at 7:00?"
Tele: "Your toaster told us through the internet."
User: "What else do you know?"
Tele: "You get up at 6:20 every morning, your alarm clock told us. You blowdry your hair after your shower at 6:35. You turn on the coffee maker at 6:50. You put toast in the toaster at 6:55. You get the orange juice out of the refrigerator at 6:57. You take the toast out of the toaster at 7:00. The new blenders even have web-cams built in."
User: "What gives you the right to spy on me like that?"
Tele: "We're "The Power Company" -- we can do anything we want. "power" is our middle name! -- Well I have more toasters I need to break -- your new 2 year toaster is on it's way. Be careful and don't slip on that piece of buttered toast you just dropped -- we would be required by law to turn over the video to your insurance company. ...and have a great day!"
*click*
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HPL is Coming to an Outlet Near You!
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by N0RTU on June 6, 2004
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Hello All!
How about a worked all outlets award?
You know, my shrink told me that I would need to keep my appointments for the next year or so because I had several issues that I needed help with.
But now that I've found E-ham, I'm going to quit the shrink!
I think all the answers to my problems are RIGHT HERE!
Ham Radio should be 90% learning......
and the other half operating!
73
de
Mike
N0RTU
Honey, have you found my Prozac yet?
There is nothing wrong with me.....
There is nothing wrong with me.....
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