Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
Andrew O'Brien K3UK (KB2EOQ)
on
May 23, 2004
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I wonder if anyone has proposed that the FCC introduce a license class aimed specifically at young kids?
I recently bought a couple of FRS hand held radios for my kids, aged 10 and 8. Last year I tried to develop their interest in amateur radio but they showed no interest whatsoever. I am pleasantly surprised to see how they have taken to the FRS radios. My two kids take them with them whenever outside in the backyard woods, they radio home periodically. When my kids have friends over, all the kids want one and run around playing radio games, mostly pretending to be "spies" using a radio. Thus, their imagination has allowed them to create a way of making radio "cool".
I think the fun is based on ease of operation and the fact that they don't have to remember anything "complicated" like a call sign, IDing every 10 minutes, and jargon like "73, QRT"
Perhaps the FCC should develop a license class that automatically expires when the person is aged 14. One aimed generally at kids in the 8-13 range but one that does not exclude younger kids.
With my son's real interest in the FRS radios I took a look at the current Tech class exam. While he is a bright kid, the exam questions do not appear to be written in kid friendly way. The textbooks for studying the current Tech license are even worse. Not at all kid friendly.
I would propose a Junior Technician license. One that restricts kids that pass the exam to 220 MHz, 440 MHz, or 2 meters. Power limit would be 5 watts. The exam, written at a 2nd grade level, would emphasize basic safety and good operating habits, perhaps a few minor regulations. 10 questions in the exam, a pass would require at least 8 correct. The ARRL would develop a textbook specifically written for the target group.
With this license class, we would have a clear recruitment plan for new "young" blood. Those FM repeaters we have, mostly unused, would then encourage kids to use handhelds much like the FRS radios...and have fun talking to their friends via amateur radio over a wider range than FRS.
Andy K3UK
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KG4YJR on May 23, 2004
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I can see the FCC foaming at the mouth right now just thinking of all the revenue they could generate from the parents of the juveniles that operate inappropriately and violate FCC/Amateur rules. The parents would be the ones ultimately responsible for paying say, a $10,000 fine if their kid decides to play rap music with profanities on the local repeater.
A Good idea that needs some input though in my opinion. Maybe if only minor children with a licensed parent or a licensed guardian to act as their sponsor and the stipulation that the sponsor would accept any and all responsibility including the fines and loss of their own license.
The benefits with the idea you mentioned would be costs. With a 5 watt limitation the options are pretty limited to QRP radios and kits. A real benefit to the many parents like myself who have suffered through all the "must do" "must have" school activities and hobbies that last about two weeks.
The real plus to this story is at least people like the author, Andy-K3UK, are still trying and thinking of ways to get people involved in amateur radio instead of the typical "chase and discourage all new-comers away, we don't need them" attitudes that are continuously spouted on these forums.
73
Dave
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by NA4IT on May 23, 2004
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Suggestion...why not talk to your children's school about becoming one of the ARRL's "Big Project" schools. One of our local elementary schools here is one, and I believe we will see a lot of kids get their license. (And one thing I have learned, is a kid can talk a parent into just about anything, so I expect to see some adults take the plunge also!)
Here are a couple of links:
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/tbp/
http://www.qsl.net/kc4rcs/
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KG4RUL on May 23, 2004
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"With this license class, we would have a clear recruitment plan for new "young" blood. Those FM repeaters we have, mostly unused, would then encourage kids to use handhelds much like the FRS radios...and have fun talking to their friends via amateur radio over a wider range than FRS. "
There is your answer, FRS. Nothing new needed.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WR8D on May 23, 2004
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I hate to say this but it just needs to be said.
From the sound and attitude of many of our new technician class license holders...we already have a junior license. Think about it! Just sit and listen to many of them. Look at their comments here on the thread. Ok now flamers the world is watching, go ahead and prove my point.
73
John WR8D
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WPE9JRL on May 23, 2004
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You're right, FRS radio's are fun for kids....for that very reason: you can operate freely with little or no restrictions, just what kids love.
Imagine the kids now licensed on the ham bands. In no time they will be "talked down upon" by some self-appointed freq-cop. Have heard this many times on VHF where some poor newbie gets the riot act written to him for some minor, innocent "violation" of ham-speak or protocol.
Let the kids be kids. They will soon tire of the radio's and drift into the world of the internet like most kids do. They will probably forget all about radio and may be better off for it.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K7FD on May 23, 2004
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Agreed. The current tech license is for children.
K7FD
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N4LI on May 23, 2004
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Well, I think your basic premise is a good one – it is imperative to get more young people into the hobby. In fact, I was every complimentary of the ARRL’s new entry-level license idea in my Comment filed on their Petition in April:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516086790
I was quite critical of a few other proposals by the ARRL, though. But, that is beyond the scope of this string.
So, I am also not opposed to a simple, limited, VHF-only license for matters such as this. The Devil, as they say, is in the details.
Ham radio has testing, and we do it for a reason. RF, even at low power levels, can be dangerous. Do the calculations for RF exposure with an HT; bear in mind, the radiator may only be an inch from your face. This is something operators, even young ones, should be tested upon. Kids... don't stick the antenna in your mouth.
But the possible harm does not stop there. Your proposal limits power output to five watts. Again, I applaud the concept of a graduated license with increasing power privileges. But, on the repeater bands, 5 watts is often as good as a kilowatt; once you’re in, you’re in. So, operators need to be as well-versed in repeater operation as a full Tech, or even an Extra-Lite like me. Can a second grade level exam do that?
I am with ‘ya, Andy… I want more kids on the band. We just need to make sure they are ready. Perhaps the “New Novice” license proposed by the ARRL might be the way to go here. They propose just 25 rudimentary questions. Do we need to make it easier still?
GL
Peter, N4LI
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KZ1X on May 23, 2004
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We used to have such a license. It was called the "Novice."
For some unbeliveably stupid reason, it was jettisoned.
Let's bring it back. The League's proposal to do just that is sound. I heartily endorse it, and you should, too.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by EXPRO on May 23, 2004
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Lets see we have a entry level techie license right now, it requires buying or borrowing a simple memory q and a test. Why do we need yet another class of license. I agree the current techie license is for children just listen to the repeaters.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K0BG on May 23, 2004
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I agree with John WR8D.
And I also agree with the ARRL on returning the Novice license.
It seems to me, that the operating mishmash John WR8D was referring to started when the Novice went away in the first place.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WQ6F on May 23, 2004
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Let's really simplify this whole thing. Why not just issue a license with the birth certificate ??
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N5EIL on May 23, 2004
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I agree with one of the above postings, that the current tech is perfect for kids. I am 16 and hold my general. If I can do it anyone can. Just teach them the joys of ham radio.
N5EIL, Neil
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KE6PKJ on May 23, 2004
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There are already many bands for the kids to play on the radios license free with at least half a watt or greater. You have 136 Khz LF, 27 mhz HF, 462 Mhz FRS, 900-2.4-5.8 Ghz spread spectrum and the new vhf MURS band where you can add external gain antennas and transmit voice or digital. So really the privileges are already from LF to microwave, why do they need another band? If their natural inclination is to learn more about radios, then the next step is to take all of 20 minutes to read the technicians Q&A book and pass the test.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KC0KBH on May 23, 2004
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I think it is a good idea, but the current tech test isn't that hard. I was licensed when I was 9 in 2001. And I just upgraded to General a few days ago.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on May 23, 2004
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I looked at the calendar. Nope. Not April first.
K6BBC (still laughing)
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WA9SVD on May 23, 2004
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While I respect your idea, I must disagree. Amateur Radio is a definite licensed SERVICE, and as such, requires adherence to the FCC Rules and Regulations. Along with the privileges (including to talk over the radio) there ARE also responsibilities, such as language, identification, etc.
There have been seven year old children that have gotten their ticket the "old fashioned" way, by taking at least the Tech exam. I see no reason to require anything less. It at least shows that they at least have some idea of the rules, whether by rote or not; they have at least seen the rules at some point.
For the "FUN" aspect, FRS, or CB is more than sufficient, IMHO.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KG6OYK on May 23, 2004
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FRS fits the needs of kids that want to play with virtually no restrictions. GRMS gives you more power and the ability to use repeaters with no test required - just a license fee. Want more? The Tech license will give you more spectrum, power, etc., but with more responsibility. It's a tradeoff.
SteveL - KV6O (formally KG6OYK)
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KG6OYK on May 23, 2004
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TYPO ALERT! GRMS should have been GMRS. Also, MURS is available - I have a few of those at two watts and my kids use them - much less congested than FRS.
SteveL
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W3HF on May 23, 2004
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Our experience is the same as KC0KBH. My (then) nine-year-old son attended a license class last spring, one that was directed at children. There were five boys in the class, from third grade up to about sixth grade. They (we) taught the same material as the "adult" classes, but made sure we defined the words in a way the boys could understand.
Matthew was the first to take and pass the Tech test. He hasn't yet upgraded, but he's interested, and we keep talking about it.
I also agree with N4LI--if we need a license simpler than the current Tech, the ARRL's suggested "New Novice" is probably the way to go.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K2WH on May 23, 2004
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I don't understand. You say we should have a special license for young kids so they can learn and perhaps get interested in ham radio.
Why the special license. They are already learning with the FRS radios. If FRS does not pique their interest, having a paper license, isn't going to do it. I think you would just be starting a new CB band, where ever that would be.
K2WH
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W5HTW on May 23, 2004
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You're behind the times. A "junior ham license" was created in 1991.
Don't need no more
Ed
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KA4TUE on May 23, 2004
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W5HTW.. you got to be the biggest asshole on the planet. No wonder the hobby has gone South!
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N5MZL on May 23, 2004
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While I think Andrew's heart is in the right place, for kids that young, I would say that things like FRS or CB are more than adequate. We hear about kids in that age range getting their licenses all the time, (albeit from what one reads about such children, they are exceptional to start with), so it is doable now.
The thing is, an interest in communications in general and radio in particular is rather like gold; it's where you find it. If the kids that are currently having a blast with their FRS radios really have the radio bug, you will know it soon enough. If their interest is genuine, in time they will be good candidates to become ham radio operators.
73 de N5MZL
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by AG4RQ on May 23, 2004
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How about a 'Toddler Technician' License? You can give the toddlers coloring books with pictures of radios and antennas to color. When they color in all the pictures, issue them a 'Toddler Technician' License. Fisher-Price and Mattel can make the radios for their use.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WILLY on May 23, 2004
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by KA4-TUE on May 23, 2004
"
W5HTW.. you got to be the biggest asshole on the planet. No wonder the hobby has gone South! "
??
He can't be.
Want proof?
Easy - see your post. Beyond any doubt, it proves that you are far and away more qualified for that title.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by AG4DG on May 23, 2004
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I fully agree with the need to promote amateur radio. However, this requires public awareness, something that has been lacking for a long time. I only found out about amateur radio because I was a weather weenie who wanted to become a storm spotter. By that time, I already had my BSEE degree, and I was old enough to buy beer. Believe me, amateur radio is EXTREMELY obscure.
The ARRL and many individuals on discussion forums believe the current Technician license is too difficult to obtain. Can anyone present evidence of this? I think that the evidence shows that the Technician license is a good entry-level license. When both the Novice license and No-Code Technician license were both available, new hams chose the No-Code Technician license as a first license by something like a 30:1 margin. Both licenses required passing the Novice written exam. The Novice license required passing the 5 wpm exam while the No-Code Technician license required the Technician written exam instead. The new hams overwhelmingly felt that the Technician exam was easier than the 5 wpm exam that the ARRL and others insist to be easy as pie. Why would anyone expect the 5 wpm exam to be easier? The Technician exam was just a continuation of the Novice exam, so studying for the Novice and Technician exams wasn't that much harder than studying for the Novice exam alone. The Morse Code exam, even at 5 wpm, was completely different from the Novice written exam and thus posed far more of a challenge than the Technician exam.
At a time when the FCC wants to merge license classes, it's difficult to justify adding a new entry-level license class when the existing one seems to serve its purpose quite well. I certainly don't think the existing Technician license should be eliminated in order to add a new entry-level class, and I think automatic upgrades from Technician to General are too extreme. The only change I think is necessary is fully eliminating the Morse Code testing requirement, but it's NOT enough (in and of itself) to recruit more amateur radio operators.
For the most part, the license system is OK. I see insufficient PR and awareness of amateur radio as the limiting issues.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KC9DOY on May 23, 2004
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I took my test to upgrade to General class this year at the Dayton Hamfest. Sitting in the same room was an 11 year old young man taking his Technician license test. He passed his test and only missed one question. You should have seen the smile on his face. It was obvious that he had done his homework. I think that the youth of today enjoy a good challenge. Based on this experience, i am confident that many young folks out there are capable of passing the tests as they are.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on May 23, 2004
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In California, the state legislature wants to give 14 year olds the right to a 1/4 value vote. I’m amazed how pervasive nitwit thinking has become.
K6BBC
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K3UD on May 23, 2004
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In some ways there might be some merit to the idea.
Back when CB was CB (60s through early 70s) before the truckers and freebanders virtually took it over, Lots of kids either purchased or had given to them the ubiquitous 100 milliwatt walkie talkies which were available at many appliance and department stores, as well as the local Lafayette and Radio Shack stores. About half of the members in my Boy Scout troop had them in 1965. The cool thing back then was to have local nets in the close-in areas of your subdivision, and chat with owners of the real 5 watt CBs with their outside antennas. This was closer to ham radio than a lot of hams have ever wanted to admit. A lot of these kids got more interested in radio and eventually became hams.
Some kids with FRS/GMRS radios are doing much the same thing today in subdivisions in my locale. Parents purchase them so they can keep tabs on their younger kids, and neighbors kids and there is even some local channel coordination going on. Like the 100 milliwatt CB talkies, these can be purchased almost everywhere with a pair of basic FRS units often priced on special below $10.00.
Whether it will spark interest in kids to pursue radio communications further remains to be seen.
Unfortunately, I can not see 8 - 10 - 12 year olds showing up en-mass on a local repeater without some problems being generated among the present users of the repeater. I well remember what happened when the new Techincians started to show up on repeaters when that license was introduced.
Sometimes thinking out of the box might spark something.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KA3RFE on May 23, 2004
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Kids playing radio games on FRS is fine. Leave them alone. If they get interested in amateur radio at some future time, that will be great!
FRS is for fun. Amateur radio is fun with a purpose.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W5HTW on May 24, 2004
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WILLY, at least he knows it has gone South! Point proven.
<<by KA4-TUE on May 23, 2004
"
W5HTW.. you got to be the biggest asshole on the planet. No wonder the hobby has gone South! "
??
He can't be.
Want proof?
Easy - see your post. Beyond any doubt, it proves that you are far and away more qualified for that title.>>
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KB5SXH on May 24, 2004
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First let me say that I don't personaly agree with the point of view that the current technician license is for "children". While some of the children I've heard on the air have better operating practices than the "adults" I've heard, that's beside the point.
I do wish the test were harder. I wish that the questions and answers were not readily available to everyone on the internet. There's not much anybody can do about that at this juncture as the cat is already out of the bag.
There always have been, and always will be operators who are not interested in the technical aspects of HAM radio. My YL is a new ham, and still she looks at me quizicaly as I'm laying half in the repeater cabinet that's in the middle of my living room planning my DC distribution bus, or tearing apart friends' radios trying to figure out what is wrong with them... It's a fact of life, and the only thing I or anybody else can do to change things is not only to teach, but to make our fellow HAMs want to learn.
The day that my YL got her call sign assigned, I gave her a brand new HT, and a list of frequencies for the area, and told her she was on her own. I answered a few general questions, but I made her read the book and learn her radio. It was a harrowing experience for the both of us, but at least she can use her radio.
People tend to be pretty careful about asking me technical questions, or eliciting my assistance with their technical issues, because they know that the cost of my services will be that without fail, I will teach them about what is going on.
Do I think we need a special test for children under the age of 14? I think not. I was quite a bit younger than 14 when I got my ticket, and I wasn't alone. I had a friend who was an extra and I think he was under 10 when he passed that. I had several friends who were HAMs handily below the age of 10. I have a friend who's seven year old son is studying for his technician class license, and is doing well. During the morning my friend even puts him on the radio, and the kid already has better operating practices than many older hams that I've heard on the air.
I would love to see more young hams, but I don't think the way to go about that is to give them a special licensing class. I don't think that creating less knowlegable operators, of any age, will contribute greatly to the ranks of amature radio. There will be a very large attrition rate with these individuals, because they will not understand quite as well as the others on the air, and there will be a certain amount of disdain for these individuals.
HAM radio has always been a well-rounded hobby. It is shared by individuals from every demographic. I make roof coatings for a living, but I can get on the air and talk to lawers, doctors, trash collectors, retired military personnel, et cetera. Young people, old people, men, women, you name it, they're out there.
My goal is not exactly to target a particular demographic, but to target them all. I admit that I target children a little more than everyone else, because I was a kid when I got my ticket.
I would love to see more children in the hobby, but I would rather they be on the same level as everyone else.
Just my not-so humble opinion on the matter.
73
John KB5SXH
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W3RAZ on May 24, 2004
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We don't need another license class. The Tech serves the purpose very well. The FCC is seeking to reduce cost not increase it. Adding another license class is contridicitory to the current thinking the FCC has been using.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by AC3P on May 24, 2004
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If an 8 year old can pass the Extra, I don't think we need a license for kids.
73
Frank
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W1XZ on May 24, 2004
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What we really need is a test for adults. Right now I am destinated at the home QTH and have to get outta here, so 73's to you all.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N2XE on May 24, 2004
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License for kids????
Isn't that what we did with the 5 WPM code requirement?
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From FRS, next step is shortwave listening
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by NJ0E on May 24, 2004
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i don't believe we need a special license class for
children. i think FRS serves adequately, and in many
respects, much better than the old cb/channel 14
100 mw walkie talkies.
for a next step from FRS, i suggest shortwave
listening. i was an swl for a year or so before
passing my novice exam (at age 13). it's still a
great hobby, though not quite as popular as it
was in the 50's-70's.
there are some excellent kit receivers on the market
that are not expensive. you and your son could work
together on assembling and aligning it. check out:
http://tentec.com/rcvrkit.htm
(i have no affiliation).
i have built the model 1056; it is fb, and i learned
a thing or two in the process. for general shortwave
listening, the 1054 or 1253 would be a better fit,
as they would do a better job with amplitude
modulated signals than the direct conversion 1056.
73
scott nj0e
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WM5Z on May 24, 2004
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Let's let FRS be FRS, and amateur radio be ham radio. I think what you propose is what the FCC had in mind when they made the FRS band. Let's not create another CB fiasco.
since I have seen several hams get their ticket at age 8, I see no reason to do what you suggest. Since a few of them have even upgraded, one at least, has even gotten her extra(!)at 12 years old, I see no need to lower any standard.
I am in favor of increasing our ranks. I don't think this is the way to go about it.
Steve/ WM5Z
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K0RGR on May 24, 2004
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Well, actually, FRS sounds like CB in most places I've used it. Perhaps not so many 'roger beeps' and turkey callers, but loads of miscreants. So, you may want to determine if you really want to expose your kids to that, and keep a sharp eye on them if you do - I have no doubt there are pedophiles patrolling the FRS band.
But, in reality, I think the current proposal to reinstate the Novice license with some real HF priveleges is all we need to attract and keep more newcomers. I think that getting the kids we get on the air, and keeping them in the hobby is the real key. Another VHF/UHF only license will just lead to more dead ends. We need more cheap shortwave receivers that can copy SSB - get the kids listening on shortwave.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by HAMS_R_FAT_PIGS on May 24, 2004
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Boy you guys are so smart and know everything. How does the rest of the world keep amateur radio going without all you self proclaimed genius's giving them advice on how things should be?
In the meantime, don't worry about the youngsters. We're teaching them the way to communicate abroad is by using instant messenger with BPL.
Go take a bath and loose weight you fat smelly pigs!
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KB8RNU on May 24, 2004
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No. The current tech license is an entry point into the hobby. For those whose primary interest is in the world above 50 mhz, it is perfectly fine.
I rarely use my privileges on voice at all. My interests are in data, video, satellite, telemetry. That is where the _new_ developments are occuring (with the exception of PSK31, which is very, very cool). That's where the radio art is being advanced.
A technician class buddy of mine designed and built a low cost TNC, from scratch, and wrote all the firmware for it. He does not know code, but knows the low level details of the APRS and AX25 standards down to the bit. Are you going to honestly tell me he's not a "REAL" ham? Please....
I've operated HF. Plenty of the folks down there are just as clueless and rude as any tech I've ever chatted with on 2m.
Sweeping generalizations are the sign of a poorly formed argument.
Jason
> Agreed. The current tech license is for children.
>K7FD
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by AH6RR on May 24, 2004
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The current "Technician" License is simple enough for Kids in fact the "Extra" is very easy to pass also.
When I got my Technician ticket (Now Tech with Code) in 1986 the questions where harder than the extra is now. I have since upgraded to Extra. As far a FRS goes it is a good starting point as CB used to be (long ago in a time far away). Here in Hawaii you can hear Spanish, German, Japanese ect. on FRS when the cruise ships are in town so the Kids can get a taste of HF radio there. Yes we need lower cost SSB Receivers for SWL to get more kids listening on the bands.
Now for the comment made by "Hams are Fat Smelly Pigs" You must be one of the perverts that pray on Childern over the internet. Just look at all the porn, smut, and chatroom perverts out there not including all the email bulk mailers that want to turn everyone into drug abusers. That's just what I want my Kids to see (Not!!).
Leave the License classes as they are. Just promote "Ham Radio" More than we are.
Roland AH6RR (Not a Fat Smelly Pig)
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WILLY on May 24, 2004
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by HAMS_R_FAT_PIGS on May 24, 2004
"
Boy you guys are so smart and know everything. "
Thank you for the compliment.
"
How does the rest of the world keep amateur radio going without all you self proclaimed genius's "
Has anyone proclaimed themselves to be a genius? Maybe I missed it.
Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, with you considering the gap between your own intellect and theirs as being a genius level gap. Possible?
"
giving them advice on how things should be? "
Besides the other obvious differences in us, here you've illustrated yet another. Many of us consider these message forums as a wonderful way to exchange ideas with others, including expressing one's own opinions. It appears that you don't want to use these as places to give advice.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WILLY on May 24, 2004
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by W5HTW on May 24, 2004
>>> WILLY, at least he knows it has gone South! Point proven.
<<by KA4-TUE on May 23, 2004 >>>
To: W5HTW
:)
By the way, even though I don't 100% agree with everything there I like what you present on your web pages at http://W5HTW.home.att.net/index.html .
Much interesting reading found there. Thank you.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N6DW on May 24, 2004
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I appreciate the thought behind this suggestion. My son passed his technician last year at 14. The real problem is not the licensing. It is finding someone for him to talk to. Almost every ham he has meet or talked to on the radio has been been very polite and helpful, and as my son is your basic goofy 14 year old, that is saying a lot. But he needs a place where he can meet other young hams on the air, and that really isn't available with a technician license in this area. The HF novice priveleges are sorely missed.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on May 24, 2004
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N6DW has absolutely nailed the problem. The Technician IS NOT an entry-level license. There is very little to offer in the Technician privileges. Operating on repeaters in Southern California is mind-numbing. Six meter operation is too sporadic and unrewarding for the new amateur. Any data mode is far better realized on a computer with a dialup modem. I have four children and I would have a difficulty recommending to them ham radio as a hobby. The mean age of the ham population in the US is now over 55 years old. When I started in radio in 1968, the band were full of young people. Now, young hams are about as rare as a P5 callsign (North Korea). Everyday I hear QSOs about elder hams latest medical condition. Our hobby is ageing and dying. And, worse, because of the lack of infusion of new people, the level of QSO is sinking into useless trivia. Our public image is almost non-existent. When we are represented in public, it is by those goofy hams that ware orange vest and use those stupid handi-talkies doing a remarkable job imitating all those geeks in high school everyone made fun of. It’s no wonder young people are staying away.
It’s time for all of us to get with reality, stop being selfish, and start supporting the ARRL’s proposed restructuring.
K6BBC
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by NN6EE on May 24, 2004
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Andy,
No offense but they're already thinking about a JR. level HF ticket with NO CODE, there's also the NO-CODE Tech and there's the "EXTRA-LITE" license as well!!!
Any other license that would be created now would be entirely a WASTE of time and money!!!
So why make it any easier then it ALREADY IS or will be???
:-)))
Jim/ee
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W6EZ on May 24, 2004
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It's always a good idea to think of ways to get kids involved.
FRS is very popular and a lot of kids can be heard there.
GMRS is already abused. No one ever seems to bother getting the license.
I always make a standard offer to the kids in the family. (inlaws and such) Study and get the license and I will get them the first radio. (Hey, a simple 2M handleld is cheap.) So far, only two have done it with a third studying.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WB2WIK on May 24, 2004
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As for somebody to talk to, I work quite a number of "kids" on the HF bands; probably not as many as I did 30 years ago, though.
The licensing exam process is outdated for sure, but I don't think it's "hard," just outdated. My nephew Rob, who studied only with me and only for a couple of weeks, received his Novice ticket (KD6EWT) at age 8, and his Extra (AJ6E) at age 9, and was featured in W6DDB's "Novice" column in CQ Magazine immediately thereafter, with a half-page photo, back in about 1990. Although he never had any high school math, he didn't find any of the process particularly difficult, and I chauffered him to the VE exams.
That convinced me the process isn't "hard," just unwieldly. The problem today is that Bill W6DDB, like all of us, got old and there just aren't many good programs for beginners, especially kids. Another problem is the "how ya gonna keep 'im down on the farm, after he's seen Pareeee?" syndrome. Today every kid has internet access and computer games, and already chats with other kids all over the world at the click of a mouse, 24 hours a day. Ham radio has a tough time topping *that.*
To that end, I'm not so sure that providing the youngest crop of easy-in Newbies with VHF-FM low power privileges will help much, since it won't get them much farther than the $49/pair FRS license-free hand helds will, and they could become bored quickly. At least there's the possibility of some enchantment with the hobby when one hears voices with foreign accents coming from his speaker and realizes his next contact may be very interesting.
We need more pro-kids hams, for sure. W6DDB did such a great job, and has no replacement I can find...
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K1CJS on May 24, 2004
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I would say the thinking that the current Tech license is easy enough for kids is right. There's no need for an extra license class. Also, some of the 'kids' are taking and passing the General and Extra license tests, and are probably better operators than some of the current license holders.
No, I don't think there is a need for a 'junior technician' license class.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KC8VWM on May 24, 2004
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Nevermind extra class in a day, I cant even solder a pl-259 connector class license - I am currently studying to upgrade my toddler tech license so I may be extended the humble privilege of operating on the more notable FRS bands.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by DUALGATEMOSFET on May 24, 2004
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We need a "Canine Class" license so we can get our dogs interested in ham radio. Lets teach our pooches Morse code. Its the only mode they would be able to use, as they are not able to talk or type. Just set up a microphone with a vox and put them on the air. The test for the Canine class license would be the 5 wpm Morse code test. Then we can truthfully say that ham radio is going to the dogs!
73 from DUALGATEMOSFET
aka
"The Epitaxial One"
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WA2JJH on May 24, 2004
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How about this. GMRS is lic free now. That gives kids 3Watts, 22 channels, and 38 PL codes.
I do not think it should be part of the Amatuer radio service.
However If these young ham to be's wanna use call signs and operate just like a real ham, they will be ahead of the game when they go for their tickets.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WA2JJH on May 24, 2004
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How about this. GMRS is lic free now. That gives kids 3Watts, 22 channels, and 38 PL codes.
I do not think it should be part of the Amatuer radio service.
However If these young ham to be's wanna use call signs and operate just like a real ham, they will be ahead of the game when they go for their tickets.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WA2JJH on May 24, 2004
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dual Gate...Thats pretty funny!!!! I never use VOX, becuase my cat is very vocal.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on May 24, 2004
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Denial is not a river in Egypt. Its’ perfectly clear why kids avoid this old mans club.
And as I said before, the tech class is a big drag.
K6BBC
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KD5ALU on May 24, 2004
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There is a "Junior Class" . It's called CB or "Children's Band" radio. Just listen for an hour or so as school is getting out. Unfortunatly 2 meters can be just as bad. There is no need at all for a juniour class amateur lisence. This is proved by the number uf under 14 operaters that hold an Extra class. If youth are interested, they will do the work.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K0CBA on May 24, 2004
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".... all the kids want one and run around playing radio games, mostly pretending to be "spies" using a radio. Thus, their imagination has allowed them to create a way of making radio "cool"."
Sorry, but for what they are doing, FRS is where they belong NOT any portion of the ham bands.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by AG4DG on May 24, 2004
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There's no need to create a new entry-level license with HF privileges. Eliminating the Morse Code test requirement would grant Tech Plus privileges to No-Code Techs AND make it easier to upgrade to the other classes.
Except for the Morse Code test requirement, there's nothing terribly wrong with the license system. The lack of PR and public awareness is the real issue.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W5HTW on May 24, 2004
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WILLY .. Ha! Thanks for the plug. You aren't supposed to agree with it! After all, it is opinion, and it is MY opinion. If you do agree with some of it, fine. If not, that's OK. It's the view from my place.
On the subject of Junior license, I'll veer from sarcasm for a moment here and talk straight.
The Novice license was the perfect entry level ticket. It made one learn, and much of the learning was by doing. It put one on the air, on HF, immediately, from day one, using real amateur procedures and talking with, and associating with, more experienced amateurs, usually Novices who had been licensed longer, but also Generals who dipped down there to teach. It was the true ham radio apprentice license.
When the Technician ticket was made the entry level, a new problem was created, that of the pre-training ground being CB radio. That meant a lot of Technicians in the 1990s came into ham radio having "already learned it all" through several years in CB. They were too smart to be entry level hams, as they were, in their own minds, already experts in radio. Consequently they wanted to be viewed as such, and when they weren't, they put the proverbial chip on the shoulder and decried all hams who had gone before them as "Old Farts." After all, THEY, these new hams, were the complete experts. They didn't want to learn to be a ham; they had been 'playing ham' for years.
The reality, though, was they were still doing the exact same thing they had been doing on 27 MHZ. Talking to the same people every day, short range, channelized contacts, and had no chance to "shoot skip." And, worse yet, they had real RULES to follow! My Gosh! And, yes, a lot of them got severely disillusioned, as that elusive ham radio that had stayed out of their grip for years before, was no closer!
Our mistake is in making CB the training ground for ham radio. Kinda like making a tricycle the training ground for truck driving.
We DO need a ham radio training license. I hope the new replacement Novice ticket does that. But it needs to recruit from the non-radio, non-CB population. Or when recruiting, say over and over again, "repeat after me, this is NOT CB."
Another reality is the FCC is not (so this entire thread is a waste of time and bandwidth) going to consider more than three classes of license. They are not going to expand their workload in regards to ham radio, but are going to condense it. They will NOT create a new ham license that goes beyond the to-be-established three - Novice (or whatever it will be called) General, and Extra. That is the maximum the FCC will allow. So some kind of Junior Tech license is out of the question. We could ask for a Junior Novice license, a Junior General, and a Junior Extra and up the ante to six licenses, but it ain't a-gonna happen. And with some kids getting an Extra class ticket while they are still figuring out how to "See Spot Run" is probably all the 'junior' we need. They can't even spell amateur and now "I are one." (Of course, that applies to a heck of a lot of the later crop of hams, too!!)
This thread is going nowhere for fun, except to incite a lot of folks on both sides of a non-existent fence. We will wind up with the current ARRL proposal, or something extremely similar to it, being made into law, and no Junior, Little Fella's license is going to be a part of it.
Still, it's often fun to just kick the bucket around!
73
Ed
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KB7EFZ on May 24, 2004
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My XYL (40), eldest daughter (11), and eldest son (10) all got their licenses as a Christmas gift for me in 2001.
I helped with their studies, reviewing the material that they had received in a local class, and it took them less than a month of studying to prepare for the examination.
Each 'aced' the exam.
Daughter is interested in getting her general soon. Son also interested. Just the usual motivation problems, so I expect it will be some time before they upgrade.
I don't think we need to 'dumb down' the requirements, they're well within the reach of a youngster.
$.02
-Tom, KB7EFZ
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KF6JZC on May 25, 2004
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We don't need a 'junior license'. The current question pools for the different levels are only an exercise in memorization anyway. I also read in QST every once in a while where someones 6 year old got their license.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WR8D on May 25, 2004
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Ref W5HTW Ed,
No body has been able it seems to put it in the exact words so well as you have. You explained exactly what has gone wrong with most of them. Infact you hit the nail exactly on the head with what we experianced with a few locals here. They were on cb for 25 years. Got pissed off and cussed us when we tried to "elmer" them. They already knew it all and came to the hambands legends, "in their own minds".
73 from another as you've probably been called
"old fart".
John WR8D
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W8MW on May 25, 2004
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>It’s time for all of us to get with reality, stop being selfish, and start supporting the ARRL’s proposed restructuring -- K6BBC
Well put.
Reality: QST reader poll shows less than 3% of ARRL members are under age 30. Overall demographics are probably similar. But hey, that's no big deal to members of an old man's club. Trouble is, the club house is in bad shape. Rough number subject to correction by a better data miner: 99.98 percent of licensees did not comment on license restructuring petitions before the FCC. Are the lights already out and the meeting is over?
Selfish: The specifics of this father's proposal are fair game for debate. But the willingness of so many to turn kids away from amateur radio through wholesale rejection is selfish, judgmental, arrogant. Not a trace of wise stewardship from that camp.
ARRL is proposing an entry level license with a more inclusive set of privileges intended to get beginners hooked for life. I'd sure like to see that happen.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KB3GJP on May 25, 2004
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I just who like to say, Havent there been kids age 10 that have passed the tech test. Havent there been kids that gone from Tech to extra under the age of 10. If they really wanted to use Ham Radio You would know.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W8RCA on May 25, 2004
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When I was licensed as WN8GIB in 1970 I used to work tons of kids my age (14 at the time) everyday on CW (remember that mode??) with my 1 xtal on 80, 40 and 15. I was lucky I owned 3 xtals most of my friends had 1 or 2. I had more fun then than I've had in the 34 years and 4 callsigns since then, coming home and trying for another state, and reading the QSL cards that were in the mailbox before taping them (boy did that please my mom...) to the wall. What was once my greatest joy has become something to do if I'm too bored to think of nothing else to do. Back then total investment in equipment less than $200 total....today $4000 wouldn't touch it, and it gets used a tenth as much. The young blood we've lost will never come back, times have changed. How about this new license class?? When a ham dies whoever cheats his wife and buys his equipment at 10 cents on the dollar, then gets his license, call to go along with his equipment and must keep it till he dies so someone else can keep the tradition alive.....I was going to say I was kidding but the longer I look at the post I'm not that sure I'm that to far off........Jeeez I'm beginning to scare myself....Lets just try to interest some of our friends with an IQ over 100 to get in the hobby, and maybe it will finally grow again...............
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WR8D on May 25, 2004
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W8WM, they hooked me for life back in 81 with the novice license they had then. I wanted to be a ham, the novice class ticket gave me access to hf and i had a ball. I would sit up half a night working stateside and dx contacts. What was wrong with that license, not one thing. It established a ground level entry class level to hf? Oh but we had to use that horrible mode that i won't mention here. If we even think of it, some smart ass tech comes along and spews we're living in the past and all of us are elite snobs. There will always be attitudes and have always been those that want to buck the system. It sure was fun getting on the air in the novice bands and being respected, breaking in on some extra operator that was burning up the airwaves and watch him or her slow down to our speed just to make the contact. We gave our kids everything that we never had and i guess thats why this generation wants everything for nothing. Back to the point though we already have a "junior" license and its the technician class.
73
John WR8D
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by WILLY on May 25, 2004
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by W5HTW on May 24, 2004
"
WILLY .. Ha! Thanks for the plug. You aren't supposed to agree with it! After all, it is opinion, and it is MY opinion. If you do agree with some of it, fine. "
Way over 50% of it, I find agreeable. Probably over 75%.
"
If not, that's OK. It's the view from my place. "
May I express a bit more of my opinion of it? :)
You put words to paper in a very readable manner.
But your artistry leaves much to be desired. That or something is wrong with my web browser.
I must tell you though, as I was reading there, that I got the distinct feeling that you feel that the time you put into writing and editing your thoughts is much more important to you than making it look pretty.
I appreciate that.
"
...
The Novice license was the perfect entry level ticket."
Agreed.
"
It made one learn, and much of the learning was by doing. It put one on the air, on HF, immediately, from day one, using real amateur procedures "
Agreed.
"
and talking with, and associating with, more experienced amateurs, "
An excellent point!
An important point.
Agreed.
The value and appreciation of good experience seems to be lesser these days.
"
... ...
Our mistake is in making CB the training ground for ham radio. "
"Our" ?
Whose?
The hams didn't _make_ CB a training ground. Perhaps someone else did.
I would venture that the hams DO make a mistake when they ALLOW CB to be a training ground. Ham radio operators, by doing and saying nothing, are allowing poor operating style to creep in, and it would seem in some areas to take over. I submit that we shouldn't ALLOW CB malarkey to become part of our being, but should respectfully insist that it be left on CB.
In other words, welcome anyone that wants to join us and the operative word is join.
"
We DO need a ham radio training license. "
Agreed.
"I hope the new replacement Novice ticket does that. "
Would you be so kind as to post the full www address, if you have it, where we can read it and about it, to get the complete picture of what is being propposed?
"
But it needs to recruit from the non-radio, non-CB population. Or when recruiting, say over and over again, "repeat after me, this is NOT CB." "
Excellent!
"
...
(so this entire thread is a waste of time and bandwidth)
Perhaps.
Perhaps not.
Here is why:
"
...
Still, it's often fun to just kick the bucket around! "
:)
73
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K3ESE on May 25, 2004
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One thing emerges as crystal clear from this thread...eHam's policy of allowing "people" to register without callsigns is tantamount to issuing an official 'Moronic Flaming Troll' license.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W8MW on May 25, 2004
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WR8D: Yup, same thing happened to me thanks to the old Novice ticket. When I got mine in 1962 the Novice bands were full of kids and it was very easy to make friends in the same age group. Growing up in a small town without a big ham population, it was HF that really got me hooked. So I strongly support a return to HF privileges for an entry class license, not limited to just 10 meters. There's utility in VHF waves, but there's magic in shortwaves.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on May 25, 2004
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"Yup, same thing happened to me thanks to the old Novice ticket. When I got mine in 1962 the Novice bands were full of kids and it was very easy to make friends in the same age group. Growing up in a small town without a big ham population, it was HF that really got me hooked. So I strongly support a return to HF privileges for an entry class license, not limited to just 10 meters. There's utility in VHF waves, but there's magic in shortwaves. " - W8MW
For all you newer hams, this is the way it was. It has never been stated clearer. HF is the attraction to ham radio. VHF and UHF are very close to Internet in feel. HF will hook a new ham. Great comments W8MW. As I stated before, I was there during those days and those days were better. Everybody needs to support the new Novice ticket. It will make the hobby better.
K6BBC
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by NN6EE on May 25, 2004
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W8MW,
In my half-vast/half-assed experiences "eHam" has QRZ.Com BEAT 1,000,000 to 1!!!
That's NO JOKE!!!
Jim/ee
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K3UD on May 25, 2004
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"Rough number subject to correction by a better data miner: 99.98 percent of licensees did not comment on license restructuring petitions before the FCC."
Actually it was 99.84% out of the 682,769 active licensees in the FCC database who did not comment on the ARRL petition. If you add all the petitions together I don't think there would be any meaningful change in the number.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by NN6EE on May 25, 2004
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George,
I did'nt bother filing a comment because I'm all for the ARRL getting what they want in the case of re-structuring!!!
Why? Because that's what the lazy "Proletariat" WANTS!!!
Jim/ee
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by W5LSD on May 25, 2004
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Oh for Pete's sake. Isn't the current Tech
license already at a second grade level.
The dumber it gets....the faster it gets
even dumber.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by NN6EE on May 25, 2004
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Mr. LSD/Acid :-)))
Amateur Radio still means SOMETHING to we older guys but unfortunately the younger-generation did'nt pick up on that did they???
Jim/ee
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N5XM on May 26, 2004
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In principle your idea is ok, but I just don't think it is needed. We had a 12-year old boy at our VE session last night, and while the kid didn't ace the test, missing seven questions, he made it, as you can miss nine and still pass. I've seen adults do worse than that. Why should kids have to do with a lesser license just because they are kids?
It comes down to stimulating kids to truly have an interest in radio in general, and Ham Radio in particular. Making it easier for them is not the answer. It's already easy enough.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by G0MZS on May 26, 2004
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I have two children, both girls, aged 12 and 14. Both have a licence and are able to opperate on HF without an adult of licence person sat watching over them.
My youngest girl was licenced just before her 10th birthday so see was 9 at the time. She does not play rap music. Infact she saved a mans life while on 2m!!
I had spotted a car crashed on the A1 and my cell phone was not in the car so I asked her to call the police and give directions to the crash. She directed them to the exact location and saved the mans life, he was in a bad way.
Because of the foundation licence we hear alot of children on the airwave, hf, uhf and vhf. I have not heard anything other than correct opperation practice from them. The same can not be said for the adults in the hobby!! 75m,40m when listerning in America is a real eye opener. Never heard so much foul mouthed adult on the air until I visited America and listerned around the band! Oh sorry I have, on our local CB channels.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KB9VRG on May 26, 2004
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I recently made a QSO with a ham who was licensed at the end of last year. He just had his last day of school and will be entering the sixth grade. It was one of my more enjoyable QSOs in a long time. He had very good operating procedures -- again, something I question from other hams in our area.
If your kids want to play around on FRS, keep it that way -- that's what the service is for. When they're ready to take on the additional privelages and rules of being an amateur radio operator, get the license.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by KA4ETR on May 27, 2004
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I think that anyone who can pass the test, act responsibly and operate according to the rules should have the license, but then again, the standards have been lowered so much, I don't guess it matters anyway! How do you think the General, Advanced and Extra class amateurs felt when they dropped the code requirement to 5wpm? It cheapened everyone of our licenses, that's what. I had to drive 75 miles to an FCC exam center and take a 13wpm code exam and written test. It's about the same thing as saying, "well, you can get your 'BS' degree at college in one year rather than 4 years" with the same privledges as the 4 year students! Stinks, doesn't it? Well, that's what happened to Ham Radio. We should be on the CB level, say another 10 years or so! I used to be proud of my license because I didn't get "something for nothing"! As you can see in my post, I didn't call anyone a dirty name or used dirty language. I operate the same way on the air also, with courtesy and respect. I'm sure a pitiful few young people will appreciate the privledge of operating on the Ham bands. Good luck to the young people who appreciate the hobby and take the time to "DO IT RIGHT"! 73 to ALL.
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K4CMD on May 28, 2004
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ALL the kids will be on HF soon! Haven't you heard of BPL?
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N3SRU on June 1, 2004
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Everyone is for getting new blood into our hobby. Where I live things are happening. Young people are finding uses for ham radio that are constructive. We are not overwhelmed but the interest is there. Search and Rescue for example draws a lot of young adults. Working public service events like bike and foot races is another example.
The last time I looked Tech was the largest license class and I bet it still is. There is no big upward migration discernible here however. Ever take a look at the FCC database on how many license expire?
FRS is a kids radio service. There they can do and say as they please. Most kids talk to their friends and mostly their friends live within a fairly close distance. Would they use repeaters as they are intended (and here I mean for covering distances) if they had access? Do they know anyone far enough away to need a repeater?
The problem as I see it isn't putting bigger, better radios in their hands, the problem is getting them to want to know more about them and to see what a wonderful hobby and life path it can be. I doubt that a $150 radio or whatever they might cost is going to do anything for them that a $35 radio can't do. I read recently about the youngest Extra being 8 years old or maybe less. Kids can do the hard stuff, often easier than us older folks. They glom onto computer stuff at the speed of light. We all know that. I'm afraid that dumbing down the license class is simply passing the buck. The job is ours.
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Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N9EGM on June 2, 2004
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I really believe that they should bring back the code requirment. It's a shame that they dropped it to the point that no one want's to learn it.
Jim n9egm
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by K6BBC on June 2, 2004
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I think it is a shame they don't test for stick-shifts as well.
K6BBC
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RE: Time For A 'Junior Technician' License
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by N2CTZ on November 4, 2004
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i am sick of the dumbing down of this hobby i got by tech license when i was a kid.
we need to bring back the code and have our kids study instead ofg fat playing x boxes and eating megameals
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