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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
Charlie (KF4OSS)
on
June 17, 2004
View comments about this article!
Why More Repeaters Need LOCAL Internet Linking
My original inspiration for writing this article is the current repeater “situation” in the Northern Virginia and Washington, D.C. capitol area; however, I believe the ideas presented in this critique can be (and should be) applied to any major metropolitan/suburban area.
Here in the nation's capitol, I believe we have a serious problem of repeater underutilization. The problem stems from not necessarily “too many” ham clubs or groups in the area, but rather the lack of cooperation between these groups. Many formal ham clubs and less-formal groups of enthusiasts have put into service repeaters all throughout the greater metropolitan area. Many of these repeaters are well constructed, and would function very well in a less urban area. However, the problem with nearly all of the repeaters in this area (the exception being a small few) is that they have very limited range, especially when it comes to portable (handheld) communication. Why? The repeater itself is not generally at fault, but rather it is the environment surrounding the repeater that deserves the blame. Tall buildings everywhere, combined with the fairly hilly terrain of the area are terrible for line-of-sight communications like VHF and UHF. Just try using simplex in the D.C. area: the results are usually sporadic. Fifty watts and a decent VHF vertical base station antenna typically yields fair results on simplex when environmental factors are not an issue; however, in urban areas such as Northern Virginia, it is often difficult to communicate with another base station that may only be 15 or 20 miles away because of an unseen building or hill in between the two stations that is significantly hindering the line-of-sight.
I believe that these poor mobile, and more importantly, portable radio coverage areas are generally responsible for the shockingly high number of largely dormant repeaters in the area. I can name at least five VHF and countless UHF repeaters in the Washington, D.C. area, off the top of my head, that only get used for a quick QSO maybe two or three times a day, at max, by the same two or three people. Since it seems impossible to get a clear signal into any given repeater with an HT (unless you live within about 5 miles of it), I have sold all of my ham HTs. The only portable radios I have now are commercial radios which I use for talkaround (simplex) communications at hamfests and on-the-job as an EMT.
All right, so the problem is that most repeaters in the Washington, D.C. area cannot provide a decent service area to portable (HT) or low-power mobile radios, especially when on the move in an automobile. Because of this, many otherwise well-built repeaters are now inactive and are essentially “going to waste.” How can LOCAL Internet linking help remedy the problem?
Linking local repeaters via the Internet can not only bring life back to once idle repeaters, but you'll find it will probably bring a lot of “life” back to the amateur community as whole. You've probably noticed by now that I keep referring to “local” Internet linking. Most of you have probably heard about a free software program called EchoLink that allows hams to connect a radio to their computer and allow other hams from all over the world to transmit on that radio via the Internet. While it is certainly interesting to have amateurs from across the globe talking on your local repeater, EchoLink can also be used as the medium for linking or patching local repeaters together - in my opinion, a much more functional use for the software -- hence the term local Internet linking.
What does this mean? Well, it means all those underutilized repeaters can be “combined” into one, wide-area network, or “super-repeater.” For example, say there are four VHF and four UHF repeaters in the metro area that are hardly ever used. Let's also assume that these eight repeaters are spread out equally throughout the geographic area:
1 repeater (A) in Fairfax County
1 repeater (B) in Arlington County
1 repeater (C) in Alexandria City
1 repeater (D) in the District of Columbia
1 repeater (E) in Montgomery County 1 repeater (G) in P.G. County
1 repeater (H) in Prince William County
1 repeater (I) in Loudoun County
*Obviously, 1 repeater per county is not going to provide coverage throughout the entire county - this is a totally random example showing how linked repeaters can provide coverage over a large geographic area.
Since all these repeaters are linked, whatever is said on one repeater is simultaneously transmitted on all the other repeaters on the network. Why is this significant? Well, linking the once underutilized repeater has essentially expanded its range by eight times! Additionally, a repeater that once had only three regular users may now theoretically have twenty-four regular users! A ham using an HT in Fairfax County, Virginia can now easily communicate with a friend in P.G. County, Maryland. Additionally, a ham on-the-go can stay on the “same” repeater even after he or she is out of range. Take for example a ham that commutes to work from Fairfax to D.C. If he or she starts a QSO using an HT on Repeater A at the beginning of his or her commute to work, he/she can continue the QSO even after he/she gets out of that repeater's coverage area by switching to the next appropriate repeater in Alexandria, Arlington, or D.C.. Of course, all the repeaters are linked, so although the user is changing frequencies to achieve better coverage, the amateur is still on the same “network,” and will still be able to continue talking as if no change occurred. Think of it as the ham radio equivalent of cellular telephones.
OK, so how do I create a local EchoLink network?
The beauty of using EchoLink to locally link repeaters is the extremely low cost and ease of setup. In terms of equipment, all it takes is a ham that is willing to dedicate a spare mobile, or even portable, if he/she is close enough to the repeater, radio set to the repeater's pair, an old computer and a broadband (DSL or cable modem) internet connection, and either a home made or commercially made interface that connects the radio to the computer. I use the RigBlaster Nomic (MSRP about $40) to connect my VHF mobile radio to my computer, and it works like a champ! The last piece of the puzzle is the EchoLink software, which is free, and can be downloaded from www.echolink.org.
Obviously, this set up will be required for each repeater that is to be included in the network. There is still one important step remaining once every repeater in the network has been setup on EchoLink. The repeaters must be linked in the EchoLink software so that all communications are shared among every repeater. This is accomplished by a feature EchoLink calls conferencing.
There is really no excuse not to locally link inactive repeaters.
Using the EchoLink linking method is extremely cheap and affordable - much cheaper than linking repeaters via RF or dedicated leased-line links. Linking repeaters will, in my opinion, create a greater local sense of “community” between hams within the region, plus it will allow repeaters to do what they're really supposed to do: provide wide-area, regional coverage to lower power portable radios. Really, the benefits to linking up local repeaters are endless.
There are a few guidelines that should be followed, however, should a local repeater network be created:
-Outside linking should be disabled (in other words, set up the EchoLink software to refuse connections from other stations and allow connections only from other repeaters in the area). Remember, the point of this EchoLink application isn't to connect the repeaters to the entire world - instead the goal is to vastly improve local operating conditions.
-The links MUST be left up all the time. The system would be ineffective if certain repeaters were only online at certain times.
-Repeater owners and clubs must cooperate and communicate with each other in order to build good working relationships so that such a system can be implemented in the first place!
If anyone in the Washington, D.C. area is interested in taking on such a project - let me know! I'm more than willing to help out.
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by AI4CB on June 17, 2004
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Not sure I follow. Seems like you're proposing a system that two guys on HTs could tie up all 8 repeaters simultaneously over a 200 square mile area?
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N3NDW on June 17, 2004
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I too am in favor of linking repeaters via echolink or normal linking devices. The first reply you have is the normal response. Why tie up the repeaters. I say why not. They are sitting idle all day, so what do you care if someone else is using the machine. Its appearant that no one is using then, but the silent hams are the first ones to protest such a move. I am in favor of linking repeaters along all the interstates across Pennsylvania, but I get the the same comments, "Who wants to listen to truckers all day". If you are not an active ham, what difference does it make? I would suggest that you leave the system open so that if I were coming to the area from out of state, I could find someone who might provide traffic or weather information. I use the Target system while driving from Pittsburgh to the DC area or points south, and it helps pass the time talking or listening during the trip. All the silent repeaters do is lock up the repeater pairs of frequencies so others can not use them.
Its time for all the hams to get off their butts and get involved in the hobby. The radios are meant to be more than a personel communications device between you and your mother.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N4BRJ on June 17, 2004
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EXCELLENT idea!
I've never understood why someone would go to the expense and trouble of putting up yet another reapeater when the ones already out there are so under used. Ego?
In response to the first post, the question posted above me is a good one. Why not? Nobody is using them anyway!
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WB3HUO on June 17, 2004
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We had a linking disaster in our area. There was a repeater owner with a UHF repeater that had a programmable receiver/transmitter that could be programmed to link into any repeater in the local area.
The problem was that the owner decided to give out the linking control codes to all of his friends and not to the repeater owners that he was linking into. He never requested permission or attempted to even communicate with the other repeater owners in the area.
As we soon found out, our club's 2-meter repeater now was being dominated by the other group. Also, due to an interference problem on the his UHF repeater, our repeater was being constantly keyed up and retransmitting the interference at all times of the day and night.
Since we didn't have the control codes, we were forced to shut down our repeater when this happnened.
When we talked to several of these fellows, they were under the impression that we had already given the UHF repeater owner permission to link with us. The fact was....we didn't. Perhaps if the owner had talked to us we could have worked something out, but he chose not to.
What made matters worse is that the other group began starting arguments with our club members on our 2-meter repeater and blaming us for starting trouble. LOL.
So needless to say, I'm against linking unless its within the same organization or with another group that arrangements are worked out in advance and the link can be controlled by both organizations.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by ASTROHAM on June 17, 2004
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I agree with the original poster entirely. Having founded clubs and taken care/built repeaters, my only sorrow is to find that my machines were hardly used except for the evening nets. Also deplorable, are the hams that monitor the machine constantly, though never respond to requests for help from "out-of-town" callsigns. (Wouldn't be so crass if only they didn't call each other ten minutes after the event and talk about it)
Linking repeaters increases the odds that someone will be willing to answer the call, and occupy the bandwidth so that our hobby doesn't seem so dead to the scanners.
I'd recommend linking the widest coverage machines, so that a half-watt HT can be used in at least a 75-mile radius.
J
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC8VWM on June 17, 2004
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I tend to agree about the underutilization when it comes to local repeaters. Here in my area, I can at least recieve 23 regular repeater ID's, with only my HT.
I can obviously access many more repeaters in my state with my 7 element yagi and my main station equipment.
However, repeater activity in my immediate and even outside my local area seem to be very intermittent at best. I think if it weren't for the scheduled weekly nets, there would be almost no on-air activity at all.
Some of the nets lately seem to be just be an exercise in keying up your microphone and spitting out your station ID lasting for about 15 minutes.
I think even if you did link repeaters together as the writer suggests, would this really serve to improve the current quality and content of daily on-air activities?
Perhaps we need to focus on "what is communicated," instead of "how it is communicated."
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 17, 2004
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The good thing about Echolink is that you only link a Repeater when necessary or at your option. Great for local Skywarn or local events .Our local Skywarn Coordinators would say ,but its a local event only not for someone in England our china etc . HA HA ! this creaks me up , ? You only link what is necessary to carry the event at the time ,the software will let you block any other connections. There is no-way another Repeater or link can connect to your repeater at this time because the software is so easy to control and setup to your clubs needs. What thay really should say is we really don't have enough information on how to use or setup Echolink. But with all due respect you only link what is necessary at the time of such an event .As with a standard ( old way ) repeater link you will or could have more problems. Id's on top of each other , audio being hot on other linked repeaters ,stays linked all the time. With Echolink the software lets your repeater ID locally and not through the linked repeaters ,it also will help you in setting the audio level to match the linked repeaters audio. Believe me there are a few non Echolink linked systems around here that sound rough ( High pithed squeal's , ID's on top of each other )as the settings keep getting changed by the local repeater owners . Echolink even logs all the commands and will keep a log of who connects to your repeater.
2004-06-14 00:16:31 Shutdown
2004-06-14 07:56:54 Startup
2004-06-14 08:46:21 Verifying KF4BWG NORRIS 207.65.110.145
2004-06-14 08:46:27 Connect KF4BWG NORRIS - 207.65.110.145
2004-06-14 09:04:08 Disconnect KF4BWG Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-14 15:37:43 Connect N2YJP Kris 38400 12.76.4.118
2004-06-14 15:39:13 Disconnect N2YJP Timeout
2004-06-14 16:17:19 Connect N5ZQI KEVIN 17698 12.159.225.125
2004-06-14 16:18:15 Disconnect N5ZQI Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-14 19:09:00 Connect NV4I Joe 130236 67.226.229.60
2004-06-14 19:10:48 Disconnect NV4I Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-14 19:33:20 Connect KG4BHR-L Woodbridge, VA 108847 68.32.167.35
2004-06-14 19:34:46 Disconnect KG4BHR-L Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-14 21:23:13 Verifying KI4AKL charles angel 68.47.252.233
2004-06-14 21:23:19 Connect KI4AKL charles angel - 68.47.252.233
2004-06-14 21:24:26 Disconnect KI4AKL Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-14 22:40:28 Connect KG4WDZ James 153002 216.79.217.11
2004-06-14 22:42:57 Disconnect KG4WDZ Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-15 00:25:36 Shutdown
2004-06-15 08:03:12 Startup
2004-06-15 12:15:38 Connect KC9FSV Steven 191310 65.30.134.174
2004-06-15 12:16:12 Disconnect KC9FSV Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-15 12:38:58 Connect KB9UPS Steve 51728 12.215.121.248
2004-06-15 12:40:16 Disconnect KB9UPS Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-15 15:11:48 Connect AC5AS BILL 136729 67.11.229.21
2004-06-15 15:14:17 Disconnect AC5AS Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-15 17:18:55 Connect AC4FG Ernest 181665 66.26.197.116
2004-06-15 17:19:27 Disconnect AC4FG Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-15 22:53:52 Shutdown
2004-06-16 10:08:32 Startup
2004-06-16 10:13:29 Connect SM4YWL Thomas 185074 213.65.113.104
2004-06-16 10:14:09 Disconnect SM4YWL Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 11:11:11 Connect OE3XES-R -- 185200 80.121.73.149
2004-06-16 11:13:45 Disconnect OE3XES-R Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 12:03:00 Verifying KI4AKL charles angel 68.47.252.233
2004-06-16 12:03:05 Connect KI4AKL charles angel - 68.47.252.233
2004-06-16 12:07:55 Disconnect KI4AKL Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 12:13:09 Connect KW4CQ Bob 37769 68.49.137.216
2004-06-16 12:13:20 Disconnect KW4CQ Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 12:28:42 Verifying N4KJU-L John Hager 24.177.26.108
2004-06-16 12:28:48 Connect N4KJU-L John Hager 103539 24.177.26.108
2004-06-16 12:29:51 Disconnect N4KJU-L Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 13:57:52 Connect KW4CQ Bob 37769 68.49.137.216
2004-06-16 13:58:38 Disconnect KW4CQ Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 14:17:40 Connect KG4BHR-L Woodbridge, VA 108847 68.32.167.35
2004-06-16 14:34:12 Disconnect KG4BHR-L Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 17:54:42 Connect AC5AS BILL 136729 67.11.229.21
2004-06-16 17:56:47 Disconnect AC5AS Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 18:33:37 Connect KG4BHR-L Woodbridge, VA 108847 68.32.167.35
2004-06-16 18:36:28 Disconnect KG4BHR-L Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 20:09:48 Connect KG4BHR-L Woodbridge, VA 108847 68.32.167.35
2004-06-16 20:14:23 Disconnect KG4BHR-L Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 21:33:35 Verifying KI4AKL charles angel 68.47.252.233
2004-06-16 21:33:41 Connect KI4AKL charles angel - 68.47.252.233
2004-06-16 21:34:40 Disconnect KI4AKL Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 22:32:22 Connect N1QVC Leroy Carter 49319 4.247.4.115
2004-06-16 22:33:06 Disconnect N1QVC Peer requested disconnect
2004-06-16 23:21:56 Shutdown
2004-06-17 08:10:02 Startup.
It will even record an event for you ,as others may want to keep a record on each event. In other words a tornado touches down and one would like to keep or log the local Skywarn net. Great for on hands experience of educating our young. I have over the years received so many emails from local Skywarn Coordinators about why something can't be done its ridiculous. With their little speech about how Echolink works. In fact thay don't know how Echolink works if thay did it would be on their local Repeaters without a question . Its a modern way to link Repeaters and with more control than you have with the old standard way of linking Repeaters.
73 KF4VGX
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N2BR on June 17, 2004
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I alway tell anyone who want to setup echolink with a repeater,If you dont own the repeater please talk it over with the repeater trustee or owner or even the club.Echolink is great software to use even on a repeater and like Johnny KF4VGX posted you can control if you want outside connected or not.I have been running the software here for over 2 years and soon plan to connect to my 440 mhz repeater plus my friends 2 meter repeater and also link some simplex frequency to it.My system does get used by many ham's traveling I-40 and wanting to connect back to there home town echolink station,And some for the first time.Echolink can be use to link repeater on a local level or open to a wider area.Dont knock it till you have tryed it!
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KE4SKY on June 17, 2004
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I used to be president of one of the repeater associations in Northern Virginia which the writer is talking about. I'm no longer an officer of the association, but know a bit about its network and its design considerations, and offer the following comments as a system user only.
Repeater systems aren't designed to provide wide area HT coverage, but rather to enable standard mobile units with a unity gain antenna to have useful communications within the repeaters coordinated operating radius. A 60 mile operating radius is possible in the DC area with a good site, but these are increasingly hard to find or keep. With increased building activity and more RF emitters going up every day, increased building attentuation, shadowing, receiver desense and intermodulation from commercial and public safety users create a hostile environment for amateur repeater systems, regardless of how much effort you put into notch filters, bandpass cans,etc.
Even if repeater associations could afford to build additional multiple remote receivers, linking systems and voters to design HT capable systems, finding affordable sites for placing them is increasingly difficult. Going commercial rates for roof-top engineering suite space in the DC area ranged from $600-800 per 6 ft. rack per month in 1999 and certainly costs more than that now. Commercial real estate managers know how much per square foot roof tower space is worth and they don't offer it for free out of the goodness of their hearts just because clubs who do some public service a few times a year.
It was only a few years ago that the bank which owned our prime repeater site decided it was a better business decision to sell the building and lease it back. So the new management company gave our association 30 days to either cough up a year's rent in advance or relocate our six racks of equipment and remove our feedlines, antennas and equipment, which we did. And it was only last year that a TV station which used to let us place a remote on its broadcast tower at wonderful height and in a great location decided that our equipment was incompatible with its plans to convert to high definition digital TV, so we lost that site.
Most remaining amateur repeater sites in Northern Virginia are either on hospitals, government owned or leased buildings at minimal or no cost, because such placements were specifically approved by hospital administrators or the county board of supervisors in support of ARES and RACES communications under the county's Emergency Operations Plan and have been so coordinated with the local office of emergency management. We get only the leavings, and are grateful for any scraps which fall off the table.
I don't feel that using Internet interconnects to enable a couple HT users to tie up multiple repeaters and associated links to conduct a local rag chew represents efficient use or management of our very limited of RF spectrum. I would rather mentor new users in how to build a build a J-pole or other more efficient antenna system to reliably stay in the repeater so that I don't have to listen to their crappy signal, and maybe their learning something about how to improve their communications would make the conversation which control operators must listen to more interesting. Or even better - they might learn how to improve their station so that they could take their ragchew to simplex and that they don't have to be attached by their baby monitor to a repeater!
We teach in our RACES training courses that amateurs who are serious about EmCom should not depend on an HT as their primary rig, but only consider it as a spare or backup and when needed for walking solo assignments.
With many of the newer compact mobiles being well under $200, cost should not be a factor. If you live in an antenna restricted area you may have to be a bit more creative, but attic and balcony "stealth" installations are easy at VHF/UHF and work surprisingly well.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by OBSERVER11 on June 17, 2004
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I just love it when some new guy comes along with an idea that has been dismissed over and over since the dawn of time.
There is not rational reason to tie up so many frequencies at one time for such a limited use.
A huge system as you propose will draw every freak, wacko, anti-social, repeater rat for hundreds of miles around.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K0RGR on June 17, 2004
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There are several sides to this argument, and while Echolink does provide a very easy way to accomplish this, much more work will be required to make it work to everyone's satisfaction.
I am a believer in repeater linking to increase activity, and Echolink is a good way to do that in many cases. However, when the repeaters to be linked are all local to each other, I think it might actually be easier and more functional to link them through a common central UHF machine. Properly done, that system would not be dependent on the Internet - a good feature in emergencies, which are not unknown in the DC area.
You must be very selective about which repeaters are linked. Linking very active machines will actually have a negative impact on activity, because the people who are monitoring now will be repelled by their repeater being taken over by 'foreigners'. You must find a way to exclude ID's and announcements from being repeated - they quickly become poison to remote users - maybe tolerable when two repeaters are linked, unacceptable for three or more repeaters. It's not real easy to set this up and still meet FCC requirements for Identification of link stations, but it can be done.
Also, you must put in place a firm rule that the system is to be used to establish contact, and the the users must then move to another repeater or simplex channel if at all possible. Long ragchews on the linked repeaters will result in NOBODY monitoring - killing all the repeaters in the chain.
This is another reason to discourage handhelds - they don't have the range to use alternate paths.
I would not be in favor of linking our three VHF machines. Most hams here can access to at least one of the local systems with a handheld and all of them with a mobile rig. One of our machines is high level - it is already linked to systems in Wisconsin and the Twin Cities. Another system is the primary repeater for our club, and it is widely used for public service events. The third one is equipped with Echolink. Overall, activity is low, but it is not unusual to find all three systems in use at peak times.
What I'd like to see is a system similar to Long-Tone Zero, but for non-emergencies. I'd like to be able to get on a local machine, and if I can't raise anybody, send some touchtone command that would link the local machine to either a higher-level system or to a network of other machines. Once a QSO was established, another command would drop all the links not needed to maintain the QSO.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by AD7DB on June 17, 2004
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Well, it sounds like a neat idea on paper. In practice, you run into all kinds of problems, including some you never thought of.
Besides, how will you pay for this? Nothing comes for free. The rule with linked systems is, "The more extensive, the more expensive."
Many repeater owners spend thousands of dollars a year keeping just one machine going. The small amounts from any user base (club memberships, etc) don't pay for a fraction of it. And then there's the labor factor.
I'd try it on a very limited scale first, say 2-3 machines. You might learn what you're in for.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N4GI on June 17, 2004
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>>portable radio coverage areas are generally responsible for the shockingly high number of largely dormant repeaters in the area.<<
Newsflash: Repeaters are dormant because the traffic on them is lame.
Good luck getting someone to fork out the dough to buy 8 repeaters, though.
73,
Blake N4GI
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K2WH on June 17, 2004
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"I just love it when some new guy comes along with an idea that has been dismissed over and over since the dawn of time. There is not rational reason to tie up so many frequencies at one time for such a limited use. A huge system as you propose will draw every freak, wacko, anti-social, repeater rat for hundreds of miles around."
Absolutely correct to the above statemtn. And, if you desire wide area coverage, get on HF from the mobile.
I have said it many times in the past and I'll say it again, this continual linking of repeaters to just about everything possible, is not the direction to go with ham radio. HT's are meant for very short distances, 5 miles or less. Cars with about 50 watts, 20-30 miles max. I don't want to be heard in San Diego while driving in New Jersey. My local repeater had Echolink and one day all I could do was listen to this guy in Australia talk about what his wife was cooking for dinner. I switched to 20 meters and talked directly with a guy in Sydney just as easy. And who ever said a repeater must be constantly used anyway?
I'll bet the hams that whine about the lack of activity on repeaters would be just as pissed with too much activity. Ban Linking altogether.
K2WH
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4OSS on June 17, 2004
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K2WH & OBSERVER11: What a typical, lame response.
You totally missed the point. Perhaps you should read more carefully. But I don't know, I'm just "some new guy," after all. (Sadly, I've been a ham since Jan. 1997).
From my article:
"Outside linking should be disabled (in other words, set up the EchoLink software to refuse connections from other stations and allow connections only from other repeaters in the area). Remember, the point of this EchoLink application isn't to connect the repeaters to the entire world - instead the goal is to vastly improve local operating conditions."
Once I get off work, I’ll respond to some other comments.
Sometimes I wonder why I don't just tear up my license and send it back to the FCC.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC0ARF on June 17, 2004
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Hello,
I think more and more people are expecting perfect results with the "shack on the belt". Anyone who has really thought about HT's... loss antennas, low power emissions, poor ground plans should realize they are not going to go all that far. This means receive sites to support them.
When doing operations strictly with my HT, I try to have my truck around, and use crossband repeat technology to keep my HT power on low, and preserve battery life. At my house, I also crossband repeat a lot for the same reasons. Granted, not everyone has a xband mobile radio to do this with, but no one previous to me has mentioned the idea.
I would also favor IRLP linking over echolink. IRLP is a very sound and robust technology, and the support processes are of high caliber. You can also script things to automagically download Amateur Radio Newsline, and play it right from the computer. Or a homemade DVR. Contact me off list if you would like to know how.
Perhaps before your linking idea suffers any monitary setback, you should obtain a program like Radio Mobile, and plot out what you are trying to do. Maybe all your repeater system needs are a few linked receive sites (which are usually nothing more than crossband repeaters).
I would avoid linking overkill, however, as sometimes it is nice to go to a quiet local repeater system to chat alone, or to use that autopatch without having to interrupt everyone else. Also, as I found out in SE Wisconsin, there are a lot of political barriers, and everyone seems to need his own repeater for his 5 friends.
Christian
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WB2WIK on June 17, 2004
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The "local linking" idea is certainly not new, and one reason it's not popular is that it's been tried before in many metro areas and failed.
In the NYC area, we had local linking on systems back in the 1970's. The whole idea of the Metroplex repeater system was local linking, not just in-band but cross-band as well. The organization built up to over one thousand paid members before it all sort of fell apart because such a system just isn't needed.
Here in southern CA where I am (L.A. metro area, more hams than anywhere else in the country, and very mountainous terrain restricting coverage of any single repeater), this was tried decades ago. Ho-hum. Now, we still have a few active "networks" of linked systems on 222 and 440 MHz, and one local linked system on 52 MHz and nobody really cares. The widely linked systems (even though "local," the available user population is enormous) had to resort to very short timeout timers and user restrictions to keep any sort of order, and this made the majority of prospective users lose interest and go away. But without those restrictions, the repeaters would be continually timed out and of use to no one.
I'm happy the "repeater boom" of the 1970's is very much behind us. The experimentation, prior to popular use of the internet, has all already occurred using wireless links and telephone lines, so the only advantage of the link backbone being the internet is that it's free, and not likely to go down; but the concept is the same regardless of the backbone.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by OBSERVER11 on June 17, 2004
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KF4OSS..
Sometimes I wonder why I don't just tear up my license and send it back to the FCC.
NOW! that is the responce I'd expect!
You cannot get your way, so you pick up your toys and go home to mommy... well grow up child, LISTEN to someone that has been around a little longer than you. Many of us have "been there, done that".
Here is a first step for you, just to get the ball rolling.
Contact your repeater coordinator and ask for 2, 3, 8 pairs, and watch the laughter.
After you convince them that you are serious, now go get support, and wait for the laughter.
You need to LEARN something about ham radio first. The handy talkie was NEVER intended for use in a car, the mobile is the real radio for this. If you want HT to HT, check out a neat service called NexTel.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K4JSR on June 17, 2004
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I agree with CB and WH. In the old days repeater owners would often increase the useful range of their
machines by putting up remote "voting receivers".
The remote receiver with the best S/N ratio of the user would be the one to be repeated. The idea works great for police and fire agencies but sucks harder than the tornado that pulled Dorothy out of Kansas for
ham use. The reason it sucks for ham radio is that there are, sorry to say, people in this world who enjoy abusing these systems and gumming up the works
for the rest of us. One method used by these "on the air trolls" was to put a very low power transmitter
near the site of one of the remote receivers. The receiver could easily be found by monitoring the repeater's output while driving around the area with
very low power transmitter doing its thing. When you
hear the repeater come up, turn the transmitter of and
on several times for verification. Then put the transmitter in a hidden location close by and set a timer to kerchunk the repeater periodically. This
would, of course, drive the repeater users, owners and control operators berserk. The extremely weak signal from the transmitter and the short duration
of the transmitted pulses in an urban area made RDF'ing very difficult. After the third time of going
through that nightmare, my friend the repeater owner
said "NUTS!~" and removed the remote receivers and deliberately runs an alligator repeater.
Alligator meaning big mouth and small ears.
Magnify the above problem with people complaining that
while the repeater had the best "Talkie" coverage
in the area, when not being abused, they still could
not get into the machine from their basements running
low power from their toy talkies.
Now tie up seven or eight repeaters by
linking them on a fulltime basis and you will just start another Jihad.
The idea of linking several repeaters for emergencies
or wide area nets is still being done successfully
in many areas. When the net or emergency is over,
the link-up's plug is pulled and normal operation of the individual repeaters is restored.
I like that you started this thread because these kinds of things are not readily known to newcomers.
73, Cal K4JSR
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by VE2SHF on June 17, 2004
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Sounds good. We have more than ten repeaters linked together here on 10, 6, 2 and 0.7M. There is a much higher level of activity since they are linked together and it helps to make new friends.
However, they are linked with RF link.
It seems to me that what you want to do require a lot of bandwidth on the reflector side. A cable modem or DSL connection would probably too slow. Maybe you could fine a local sponsor amongst the Internet providers.
Good luck,
Eric
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N4ZOU on June 17, 2004
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The big problem with 2-meter repeaters is that there are too many of them. With the large number of repeaters operating on the same frequency pairs a tone access is required to keep from activating the other repeaters sharing the same frequencies. This causes the HT problem as the repeater with the required tone access automatically causes and attenuator effect to weak signals. The sub audible tone with a weak signal just will not allow the weak signal to keep the repeater open for them. So tone access removes the main purpose that the repeater was put up for in the first place, allowing HT access coverage over a large area. At least that was to first reason to put up a 2-meter repeater. Today a 2-meter repeater is used an excuse to have a 2-meter repeater club that does nothing except to brush someone's ego. The only local repeater that is active is the repeater that the local EMA agency put up and has no tone access on it. This allows groups to use a tone to prevent the transceiver from breaking squelch and making noise all the time. When someone needs to call a group or even a single operator they simply turn on the required tone and the repeater will pass it and the transceiver ('s) with the same tone programmed to respond to that tone would break squelch and let the operator answer the call. This allows the repeater to be used without bothering operators standing by for an emergency call including late night calls. Linking would not be allowed, as tone control would be required. This would defeat the whole purpose of emergency use of that repeater.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KR4WM on June 17, 2004
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> If you want HT to HT, check out a neat service called > NexTel.
You just can't convince some people that this is the
simple truth! Better HT coverage = $$$$$$$. Many folks
just don't understand the concept that a repeater is
designed to provide "somewhat" extended coverage when
simplex will not reliably make a contact. They're not
designed to talk to people in the next state 200 miles
away or to the other side of the earth. This can be
accomplished with internet chat software and not
needlessly tie up repeaters. Interstate and
intercontinental amateur radio communications are much
better suited to HF. Don't even get me started about
how cheap phone cards are these days for calling
overseas! Why tie up a $3000.00 repeater just because
it's not being used? Are you too cheap to pay 50 cents
to call Aunt Marg in England? Or are you being penny
wise and pound foolish paying for all the equipment
to save you from spending 50 cents on a phone call?
(Not directed to the original poster, I'm speaking
in generalizations here....)
If you want to link up a bunch of repeaters, contact
the owners and ask how they feel about it. After all,
the equipment belongs to THEM. If they tell you no,
don't whine and complain about it, invite them all over
for a demo and put on a program that proves your point.
You'll have to have all the equipment laid out on a
table so they can see it work. This means -YOU- will
have the burden of buying all the linking equipment
required, or locating suitable financing, -NOT- the
repeater owners! If nobody shows up for your demo,
don't be suprised. If they do, put on a show worthy of
Barnum & Bailey. Then you'll know you did your best to
convince them. Make sure you have plenty of burgers and
brewskis on hand to "bribe" them with. A cordial
setting will always accomplish more than an
argumentative setting.
Be prepared to be "elected" full-time control operator
if they accept your offer, however. This means endless
hours of sitting in front of your radio at home
monitoring for other folks's "transgressions". If
you have a job or a real life, be prepared to put it
-ALL- on hold. If you can't do that, you're wasting
everyone's time.
If, after watching your demo, they tell you no again,
then drop the subject and stop pestering everyone about
it. If you don't, you're being a troublemaker and
nobody will want to talk to you anymore! Remember,
it does no good to beat a dead horse!
-KR4WM Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KT0DD on June 17, 2004
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I think Repeater linking to get better area coverage is a great idea. Especially where terrain & poorly placed repeater sites can be a problem. If you have hilly terrain, or your main repeater is up on a mountain next to 2 500,000 watt broadcast stations and is cinched down so tight due to intermod that a HT has trouble bringing it up, a 440 link to 2m with a gain antenna to the "tight" repeater can be a help. Also, I have worked the MEGALINK system in New Mexico, and it is FANTASTIC!! Coverage from West Texas to So Calif !
Of course, you're always going to have to deal with the Crotchety OLD mossbacks on here who are the self appointed experts that know more and just want to "Control" Amateur Radio. Just ignore them, and with the proper permission, Link Away! 73.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K1OU on June 17, 2004
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Repeaters suck. Why would one want to link a bunch of machines together to hear people a hundred miles away moaning about CW? Or hear a parade in Mayberry be coordinated by a bunch of orange-hatted zealots?
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WB3HUO on June 17, 2004
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So you can can be driving in traffic in downtown Manhatten while listening to Fred & Wilber in Hooterville, Iowa talkiing about why Bessie isn't producing any milk.
It's like when you go to the Department store and see the same channel on 20 different TV's.
LOL
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KD7EVS on June 17, 2004
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in an area with that many repeaters, trying to start with new machines, wouldn't work. so go for existing.
eight, is way to many. you could probably get 5 to work.
get organizational backing. see if there are any other linked systems.
typically spending money on one really great machine is better than two (or more) not so great machines (both quality and location).
linking is best done to get messages to a machine where someone who is listening or to cover an event in a formal net... not to ragchew. there is a fine line between to little and to big. to little and no one will use it. to big, and no one will use it. trust me. once a repeater get a certain number of people who are using it. eventually people won't want to go to it cause 'everybody is listening.' especially true of new hams and some of the shyer hams. no one wants to make an autopatch call cause 'someone might need it' no one wants to ragchew cause, we would tie up the system... eventually a system that gets to this point, people start going over to other smaller systems and interest dies for the linked system and when an emergency happens, either a) no one remembers it's there b) it aint there anymore.
this is one reason why systems can be linked but aren't always.
oh, and while on the emergency note... don't rely on internet linking for emergency use. if it's there, great, but if it aint. better have a plan B. that's why RF linking still remains the primary means of linking.
lastly... if you are considering going toward a larger system. consider this. most HTs don't have a problem with hearing repeaters, it's getting back to them. Metropolotian areas are great places for a voting reciever. if you don't know what a voting reciever is, then you probably don't have the tech knowledge to set one up... find someone who does to help TEACH you. voting reciever systems are quite simple in theory and can be simple to setup. but to setup right, it can be pretty complex. Remember... a user shouldn't be able to tell, or need to know, that a voting system is being used, voting receivers should be totally behind the scene.
I believe Cedar Rapids, Iowa had/has one. I know a few of the cities I've lived in/visited have had them and they work well, I just can't remember where they were.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W5HTW on June 17, 2004
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<< K2WH & OBSERVER11: What a typical, lame response.
You totally missed the point. Perhaps you should read more carefully. But I don't know, I'm just "some new
Sometimes I wonder why I don't just tear up my license and send it back to the FCC.>>
No stamps?
Or: Maybe ALL ham repeaters everywhere should be hard-linked. Yeah, I dig that! One massive kerchunk across the nation! Wow!
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N6AJR on June 17, 2004
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I live 50 miles from my favorite repater. So I use a mobile rig on a 12 volt Power supply and 50 watts into a 4 ele beam to reach it from home. In the local area I use a HT, but mobile I use another 50 watt rig and a gain mobile antenna.
I don't expect others to have to deal with my problems. If you need beter coverage get a diamond or commet antenna an instead of the dummy load that comes with a HT (like 17 inches tall) antenna for your HT so you can put out a decent signal. Or use a small linear and a battery pack to pump up your power. HT's are for LOCAL work..like at disneyland or in a smaller community, not to talk to folks in a different state. get the right equipment for the job..
73 tom N6AJR
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KT0DD on June 17, 2004
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I think someone needs a beter repater..whatever a repater is....
Couldn't resist. 73 :)
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K9WLF on June 17, 2004
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Here in south Florida, the club that I am president of has a VHF repeater with several remote links. Broward county is roughly 25 miles east to west and 30 miles north to south, though the county is not square but shaped like a chair. When all of the remote links are working properly, our repeater system covers most of the county and small parts of the counties to the north and south. The only problem is at the far southwest of the county where there is not that much population. HT's will work through a good part of the county also, as long as they have a gain antenna. There is no need to link repeaters here nor is there any interest to do so. One club uses IRLP on their repeater but that is so Techs can talk "DX". To be honest, there is not that much traffic on any of the repeaters, except the IRLP repeater, and linking them will not improve usage. Those who are members of clubs tend to stick to using their club repeater more often than not. I know I would vote against linking. One club links their 2 repeaters for the local NTS traffic net on tuesdays and, because both repeaters do not quite operate the same, Net Control is always losing the beginning of call signs because people won't pause a moment after keying to allow the link to come all the way up first. The best way to accomplish what you want, is to join a good club with a good repeater system and volunteer time and resources to set up remote links. I hate to sound like an old curmudgeon ( I am not, licensed in 1999), but if it uses the internet to get the signal out, it is not real radio. As one other poster said, I do use HF mobile to talk to a wide area and love it.
73 and good DX, Tom, K9WLF/4 "The Wolf on the Air"
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by X-WB1AUW on June 17, 2004
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Nice prose.
"If anyone in the Washington, D.C. area is interested in taking on such a project - let me know! I'm more than willing to help out."
When you talk about this at the local repeaters you are a member of, what happens?
Bob
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by PHINEAS on June 17, 2004
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I agree with the poster. Let us fact it, alot of repeaters only exist for cool points for the owners. I think repeaters in a city should be linked. However, this would take the power away from some of the repeater owners who just put one up to look cool and talk to their friends. Let us not forget the magic word called Co-Operation. I have thought about putting up a repeater because I did not want to be bothered by some of the local people. I am sure I am not the only one who has thought that way.
IMHO, if a person can afford to spend 100+ dollars on an HT, these same people can spend a few more dollars for a 50 watt radio, and a good antenna. Then MAYBE they could even talk simplex. Or even better, setup their own echolink stations, and link them together. Heck, maybe even put them on an under utilized band like 6M FM.
Phineas
K0KMA
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N3QT on June 17, 2004
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"...yikes".
My comment. My opinion.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N0RKX on June 17, 2004
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WB3HUO wrote,
"So you can can be driving in traffic in downtown Manhatten while listening to Fred & Wilber in Hooterville, Iowa talkiing about why Bessie isn't producing any milk."
#1. There is no Hooterville in Iowa.
#2. If you're going to slam someone with a stupid stereotype check your speeeeling first Einstein. It's Manhattan not Manhatten, city boy.
-------------------------------------
We have one of the finest linked repeater systems in the country used primarily for Skywarn activities. They RF links are brought up when the need arises and for weekly nets, not ragchewing.
Spending the time and effort associated with linking repeater systems, via RF or I-net, for better HT access is ridiculous. BY A BETTER RADIO!
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KG4PZZ on June 17, 2004
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K0KMA:
"Heck, maybe even put them on an under utilized band like 6M FM. "
Speak it, brother!
Here in town (just a little south of "Northern Virginia" -- Spotsylvania/Fredericksburg) we have three really good systems. The SARA system that goes from here to DC for commuters (heavily utilized), the RVARC system for general chit-chatting (fairly utilized), and then SARG has a few repeaters. They have a 440 repeater with good coverage downtown, but only fair coverage elsewhere. That repeater is linked to a 2m repeater that gives good coverage across Spotsylvania, out to the west end of the county, and then it's linked back to a 440 repeater in King George. The system works BEAUTIFULLY if it's all up and running, and is sometimes a god-send during a storm (or Hurricane Isabell, if the antenna had survived the entire storm).
The real nice system we have, though, is the 6m linked system. One repeater, in town, with good height and power (all backed by Motorola, of course), provides superb coverage. At first, the reciever was a little so-so, and a lot of us were interested in the newer 6m handhelds coming out. Next idea? Remote recievers. It works beautifully. I mean, spectacular. Handheld coverage is good, mobile is 110%. It's linked with the Gum Springs repeater west of here, and provides excellent coverage, with an excellent repeater, on an underutilized band. That's hamming.
Connecting 10 2m repeaters? That's a pain in the neck. "Meet me on 145.670" or whatever ... turns into a 2 hour wait as Jimbo and Sally decide to have a talk for that long about the swine having piglets, and you have no other repeaters to switch to. Why? Because they're all linked together.
Nice in theory, but after you consider it for a while, there are better alternatives. A nice quiet frequency on 80 or 40 would probably be good. Digital is relaxing (and silent). Considered packet with diginodes?
Fred
K4PZZ
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W8KX on June 17, 2004
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The problem with repeaters is that they tie up two good simplex frequencies. I don't use repeaters and most of the hams I know don't use them either.
In other words, I could care less.
W8KX
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KG5JJ on June 17, 2004
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I agree with the multiple ID SNAFU, even when repeaters are NOT linked. The irritation of a half-dozen or more repeaters ID'ing every 15 minutes with welcome, time, temperature, CTCSS tone access and Ann Landers tip-of-the-day, and more, is just too much negative stimulus to listen to.
I really miss the days of CW ID, and you didn't hear anything until someone used the repeater. The internet killed packet radio, cellphones killed repeaters, and what was left drove off users with the ridiculous voice IDs, and more.
Repeater user operating practice deserves a bloody nose here too.
Frankly, I don't use repeaters for all the above mentioned reasons, and more that won't be mentioned.
73 KG5JJ (Mike) Repeater-free for many years.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K6BBC on June 17, 2004
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What is the point? In Los Angeles we have a series of linked repeaters. And guess what. Nobody uses them.
K6BBC
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K0RFD on June 17, 2004
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OK, I've been following this thread. As usual, I have an opinion whether it's useful or not.
As I read the original post, repeaters would be used more if they were linked. Well DUH, if you call one repeater and get 4 more, then all 5 are used.
So the question I have is, is that the RIGHT goal? Is the goal to make repeaters more USED, or is it (should it be) for the repeaters to be more USEFUL?
Here in Colorado, the Colorado Connection has done an absolutely wonderful job of establishing a statewide linked repeater system. The important upside of this effort is that no matter where you are in the I-70 or I-25 corridors, you can hit a repeater and other people in metropolitan areas will hear you and get help to you if necessary. The downside is that when two old ladies in Colorado Springs decide they want to chit-chat, a WHOLE BUNCH of repeaters are tied up.
I agree that linking repeaters will make them more used. I am not sure I agree that "more used" makes them "more useful". Since I haven't invested a nickel in any of our repeaters, maybe what I think doesn't count. But I'm passing it along anyway.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K0RFD on June 17, 2004
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N6AJR wrote:
>get a diamond or commet antenna
(do an elmers search on FAN DIPOLE.)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N9AVY on June 17, 2004
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Why tie up several repeaters with HTs with marginal signals ? Either buy a "real" radio or get a cellphone.
I'm constantly amazed that some newbie with a brand new HT tries to access our local repeater with a signal that's 70% "bacon frying" and then leaves in a huff because no one will talk to him ! Our local repeater is now beset with two different sources of interference which no one has been able to identify in last year or so. One sounds like a buzz saw running across frequency and the other desenses signals on the input. Try copying an HT through all that !
More repeaters mean more service/maintenance problems which all costs $$$and time. I'd guess the guys with the HTs would be the first ones to complain when they can't use repeater system.
My 2 cents...
Jerry N9AVY
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 17, 2004
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OK, Some of you folks are a bit behind times, For example ,like Dog's at the end of a chain ! Waiting to pounce on our fellow hams who post on Eham because there willinness to experiment . Idea's to increase repeater use and amateur fellowship should be supported . That's right you know who you are , Setup in that sweakey chair put your glasses on and belly up to the desk and read information that someone has posted on Eham . ( And you will disagree with it ) .
Hell ,I know what your thinking I'm 48 and growing :).
Why because its not the way you did it,or the way we did it .
Lets look at the following post here for example .
by KR4WM
Quote - If you want HT to HT, check out a neat service called > NexTel.
You just can't convince some people that this is the
simple truth! Better HT coverage = $$$$$$$. Many folks
just don't understand the concept that a repeater is
KF4VGX - Not that expensive with Echolink (To link that is ). But with your idea's maybe we should all go to Nextel and forget about ham radio all together. Let's Forget that thats where are youth are now .
Quote - designed to provide "somewhat" extended coverage when
simplex will not reliably make a contact. They're not
designed to talk to people in the next state 200 miles
away or to the other side of the earth. This can be
accomplished with internet chat software and not
needlessly tie up repeaters. Interstate and
intercontinental amateur radio communications are much
better suited to HF.
kf4vgx -Your telling hams around the world that HF with and all its propagation problems
That FM Repeater operations is a waste of time . With Echolink there designed to use and accept Ht's as the next Nextel system for amateur radio. Hay our youth are getting interested now!
Don't even get me started about
how cheap phone cards are these days for calling
overseas!
kf4vgx- He's right here ,so every one just stop trying to convince Hams to use HT's and start using phone cards. Why even be a ham when you can use the phone system's to call fellow club member's and its cheaper now days anyway ? Lets get Real !
Why tie up a $3000.00 repeater just because
it's not being used? Are you too cheap to pay 50 cents
to call Aunt Marg in England? Or are you being penny
wise and pound foolish paying for all the equipment
to save you from spending 50 cents on a phone call?
kf4vgx - This is a good one lol ! I ask you what good is a 3000.00 dollar repeater WORTH not being used ? 2 cent's
Better yet why not just issue phones cards to all club members , Its cheap enough now days ,to hell with Amateur radio and our youth ( Who will be here after were gone )
Thats what happens ,we lose our younger generation to cell phones and computers .
With software like msn etc who needs to become a Ham these days ? Thats what our younger generation thinks and pursues this day and age.
Better yet bring let's bring them something that will keep their interest to amateur radio. Echolink !
kr4wnm -(Not directed to the original poster, I'm speaking
in generalizations here....)
If you don't, you're being a troublemaker and
nobody will want to talk to you anymore! Remember,
it does no good to beat a dead horse!
kf4vgx - OH great ! A trouble maker has less hams to Talk to on a Repeater that noone is using anyways, but the same Yuppies everday ! The dead horse needs to be revived if were going to keep our young involve with amateur radio.
Who wants to hear Jo brown and Sally may on the local Repeater day in and day out ? Do you ?
Make the hobby exciting and our young will get interested in it !
Or be closed minded to new interesting ways and see how boring a repeater becomes.
Quote ; OBSERVER11 on June 17, 2004
KF4OSS..
Quote ; Sometimes I wonder why I don't just tear up my license and send it back to the FCC.
NOW! that is the response I'd expect!
You cannot get your way, so you pick up your toys and go home to mommy... well grow up child, LISTEN to someone that has been around a little longer than you. Many of us have "been there, done that".
Here is a first step for you, just to get the ball rolling.
Contact your repeater coordinator and ask for 2, 3, 8 pairs, and watch the laughter.
After you convince them that you are serious, now go get support, and wait for the laughter.
You need to LEARN something about ham radio first. The handy talkie was NEVER intended for use in a car, the mobile is the real radio for this. If you want HT to HT, check out a neat service called NexTel.
kf4vgx - Now your one of the main reason's Hams abandon this hobby all together perhaps you can try and be more polite to upcoming Hams.
KG5JJ on June 17, 2004
Quote ; I agree with the multiple ID SNAFU, even when repeaters are NOT linked. The irritation of a half-dozen or more repeaters Idling every 15 minutes with welcome, time, temperature, CTCSS tone access and Ann Landers tip-of-the-day, and more, is just too much negative stimulus to listen to.
kf4vgx - Yes ,that is a problem with linked systems. but using Echolink can sure solve this problem. Its all in how you setup the system.
73
John KF4VGX Myrtle Beach S.C.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KG4IVT on June 17, 2004
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JESUS H. CHRIST, can't someone make a suggestion about how things could be done and NOT have it deteriorate into an argument? It doesn't seem that way with amateur radio message boards on the f-ing internet. What is wrong with some of you people that some of you have to jump on someone when they make a well thought out observation of how things might run a bit more efficiently or if not that, god forbid, differently? Is ham radio turning so stagnant that any kind of idea that might make having a piece of amateur radio equipment usable in a different way is now a bad idea? What happened to being on the forefront of technology like I was being fed when I was studying to get my license?
To some of us, HF is NOT the holy grail and I personally think that HF is crap. I've listened for years, operated at other people's stations under their calls, and have found that it would not be something that I'd like to deal with as my primary source of operating. I have a radio capable of doing HF but a lot of things prevent me from getting on HF even if I had the license priviledges (and the drive/interest to even upgrade). When it comes down to it, Ham Radio is a damned hobby and not a hierarchy of people that have different classes of licenses that think they're better than others because of some piece of paper issued by the government. Most people persue hobbies on their own time, in their own way and not based on what a bunch of bullies try to get them to do/make/say/think. The like it or lump it mentality seems to be growing in this hobby like a cancer, ready to stamp it out at some point.
The original scope of the article seemed to be to establish a possible state/area wide repeater system where users in one part of a state could communicate to users in another part of a state by coordinating frequency pairs of under-utilized repeaters by using ANY RADIO AVAILABLE TO THEM and NOT just an HT. While this may not work due to the petty squables and ego trips exhibited by a lot of repeater owners, it is a good idea in my honest opinion. This article did not say that a system like this would be used JUST so people could use HTs to talk all over a state. Another poster said something about the Targetlink system (I have this programmed in my radio as 146.745MHz). This machine is accessible by me only from my shack in my house on my IC-746 HOWEVER, it is a really good machine capable of some decent coverage in several states. I've talked to people in parts of Ohio or travelling through Pennsylvania, West Virginia, etc on this machine. I have ham friends that live "at home" when I'm at college and we don't talk on the radio until all of us get home to turn our rigs on and talk. What would be so bad about me firing up my mobile radio OR my HT and getting on a statewide system and talking to them at night when they're most likely still up and all the other hams have gone to bed? Some of them don't have HF priviledges either and not because they're like me and choose not to upgrade (go ahead and use that as a slam against me, as I know some of you will, but I honestly could care less about being a general or an extra until I choose to persue those priviledges if/when they interest me). If repeaters are not meant to be wide coverage machines, which in a way I do understand, what's the point of them? If HTs are not meant to be used at something, for instance, other than a hamfest, why do they have splits/PLs/, why can you attach an external antenna/amplifier to them and so on and so forth?
I will state that I am not a a dedicated repeater user like you paint the poster to be and like you'll most likely paint me to be in some negative BS fashion. I think repeaters are important for a variety of functions that they serve and are a very big part of ham radio, like it or not. And those of you that suggested a cellphone, would you say that if the poster was a relatively new ham (or someone thinking about getting a license) still getting his/her feet wet that said "Hey guys, I've got an idea here, what do you think about this?". I am sure I'm not alone in saying that I'd be disappointed in plenty of the overly negative responses on here if I was a new ham suggesting something like this.
Finally, I don't need to "learn" (quoted and used extremely loosely in context) anything from some of these self-proclaimed elmers/gomers that get bitchy at the mention of something new or different like what the original poster suggested. I can learn on my own by reading, experimenting, and talking/listening to sensible hams/radio and electronics hobbyists that I've met along the way that know a bit more than me and won't talk down to me or anyone because they have more ham-miles under their belts, years on their licenses, etc. It sounds as if some of you tried to teach people about ham radio with some of your attitudes, you'd scare them away for good.
By the way, I do have a lot of respect for those of you that proposed the possible technical problems with such a system. That's the way I thought most people would respond.
Standing by for all ridiculous assumptions.....
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by OBSERVER11 on June 18, 2004
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JOHN - KF4VGX...
KF4OSS is well established as an expert in everything, just read his comments on this site and others and you will quickly see that he does not understand POLITE, to get his attention, you YELL AT HIM.
EchoLink and any other VoIP system is a fatal flaw in the making. You live in M.B. SC, what happens when a hurricane heads your way? Can YOU pick up the phone and draw dial tone? Can you log onto AOL? NO! and why not? The INFRASTRUCTURE has been damaged. Without going into detail, research on a cut cable at a Bell CO in Chicago, see how long telephone service was down, look at storm damage in Washington State, a whole section of the state was down becasue a fiber optic cable was broken in a flood. WIRED SYSTEMS CANNOT BE TRUSTED, and what is the backbone for this grand project?? A WIRED SYSTEM!
This leaves WIRED systems, and the cost is prohibitive, and considering the recent history of repeaters, you will be hard pressed to find any interest from anyone with the money to back a system.
With so many repeaters currently linked via VoIP, why are they not all linked together? FOR THE VERY SAME REASONS I (and others!) OUTLINED... you paint a big target on yourself that reads "hear I am come screw with me"... repeater rats don't need an invite.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 18, 2004
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OBSERVER11
JOHN - KF4VGX...
KF4OSS is well established as an expert in everything, just read his comments on this site and others and you will quickly see that he does not understand POLITE, to get his attention, you YELL AT HIM.
kf4vgx - On the internet all Caps. You YELL at him ,in real RF communications you ask his opinion and move on.
EchoLink and any other VoIP system is a fatal flaw in the making. You live in M.B. SC, what happens when a hurricane heads your way? Can YOU pick up the phone and draw dial tone?
kf4vgx - He was not talking about Hurricanes . First off ! I haul ASS , :)
KF4VGX - No I cannot ,I simply move my Echolink laptop and portable antenna's to where there is a phone line and continue. Any person who travels will tell you its easy to correspond while traviling.
(In other word get out ( Blank ) of Dodge if its threating )
OR I use my cell phone connection as a backup . ( Would you like a demonstration ) ? The main observation is simple. Be in a position to be able to project back into the effected area.
Can you log onto AOL? NO! and why not? The INFRASTRUCTURE has been damaged. Without going into detail, research on a cut cable at a Bell CO in Chicago, see how long telephone service was down, look at storm damage in Washington State, a whole section of the state was down becasue a fiber optic cable was broken in a flood. WIRED SYSTEMS CANNOT BE TRUSTED, and what is the backbone for this grand project?? A WIRED SYSTEM!
This leaves WIRED systems, and the cost is prohibitive, and considering the recent history of repeaters, you will be hard pressed to find any interest from anyone with the money to back a system.etc
KF4VGX -WIRED systems can be trusted if properly used . I dont need a money ,I enjoy communications with other hams. Its really quite nice :).
With so many repeaters currently linked via VoIP, why are they not all linked together? FOR THE VERY SAME REASONS I (and others!) OUTLINED... you paint a big target on yourself that reads "hear I am come screw with me"... repeater rats don't need an invite.
With this Target painted ! We had better be in control of our links and repeaters . :) I understand your concerns ,But really as a fellow ham . What would You suggest ? Its in the interest of a Hobby to increase our ranks BTY !I have used Echolink in Expermenting and found it to be reliable if properly used, 73 kf4vgx
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N6AJR on June 18, 2004
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Ok so repeaters are spelled that way and not repater.. I don't use spell check or I'd never get a post on..
And a 2 meter fan diople mounted vertically at 170 feet will help this poor soul get across town with his underpowered HT.
Folks ya got to use the right tool for the job. If you want great coverage you need a great antenna and perhaps even a modest amount of power. Ht's are ment for local stuff, Mobiles go a bit farther, and a 1500 watt 2 meter base with stacked 22 element x 8 antennas will do moon bounce. Its a matter of using the right tool for the job.
The HT is not made for LONG DIstances.. really. Buy a radio or at least pop for a good antenna..
It isn't about arguments or elmers and old farts or newbies on the air. It s is called using the right equipment.
Its hard to hunt ducks with a .22 and paper target shooting with a shot gun doesn't make much sense. You can do it, but why?? Why expect a 5 watt HT with a dummy load antenna to get any coverage??
and Yes, look up Fan Dipoles.. it's some interesting reading..:)
73 tom N6AJR
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 18, 2004
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N6AJR quote;
Ok so repeaters are spelled that way and not repater.. I don't use spell check or I'd never get a post on..
And a 2 meter fan diople mounted vertically at 170 feet will help this poor soul get across town with his underpowered HT.
Folks ya got to use the right tool for the job. If you want great coverage you need a great antenna and perhaps even a modest amount of power. Ht's are ment for local stuff, Mobiles go a bit farther, and a 1500 watt 2 meter base with stacked 22 element x 8 antennas will do moon bounce. Its a matter of using the right tool for the job.
The HT is not made for LONG DIstances.. really. Buy a radio or at least pop for a good antenna..
It isn't about arguments or elmers and old farts or newbies on the air. It s is called using the right equipment.
Its hard to hunt ducks with a .22 and paper target shooting with a shot gun doesn't make much sense. You can do it, but why?? Why expect a 5 watt HT with a dummy load antenna to get any coverage??
and Yes, look up Fan Dipoles.. it's some interesting reading..:)
KF4VGX -If Nextel can be used for wireless communications so can a amateur radio operator with an HT :)
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by OBSERVER11 on June 18, 2004
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OOPS, my mistake, it is late... I said WIRED, I meant WIRELESS.
Also, consider this, at each site, you will need the following:
A COMPLETE REPEATER SYSTEM
that includes the tranmitter, receiver, controller, feed line, antenna, and location.
A control receiver (a legal requirement), antenna.
AN INTERNET ACCESS
be it xDSL, fractional T, Frame Relay, ATM, what ever. You need to get the telco to install this too, as well as the site owner permission. Never expect the LEC to put in DSL at the base of a water tank!
A COMPUTER
add the needed software, CITRIX, Win2K Terminal Services, whatever, so you can REMOTELY access the computer to control the stuff you would normally maintain from the keyboard. That means site licenses.
Speaking of sites, this system will need a home, rent is not cheap, a club can sometimes convince the local water utility they need access to 1, maybe 2 water tanks, but it is a real stretch for more, unless you are the HIGHEST BIDDER, forget cell towers, not enough broadcast towers.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K9KJM on June 18, 2004
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The basic idea proposed by KF4OSS is GREAT! WHY NOT?
ALL repeaters should be able to operate thru ECHOLINK.
This is a simple hook up. And as mentioned, Echolink can be configured any way the operator wants it.
Just for the emergency situation that REQUIRES linking two repeaters together for best operation. If not wanted most of the time, SIMPLE, Just keep Echolink shut off.
But for an experiment to see how linking some repeaters would work, Echolink is the ANSWER! And the software is FREE!
If, By chance some of the link ups really do work out to improve coverage and the repeater owners/trustees
agree on operations, A UHF or microwave link could be looked at to improve the reliability of linking. As mentioned, If the internet goes down, So does Echolink.
Please be SURE to check with the repeater owners/trustees before turning Echolink on the repeaters......... Even tho legal if you watch your end of the operations, It is much better to keep the
owners/trustees in the loop of things......
Good Luck with this project!
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by AI4CB on June 18, 2004
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Someone else already brought it up but it bears repeating (no pun intended) because it's true:
You want a system where two people with small, underpowered transcievers using near-dummy-load antennas, can talk reliably to each other from two arbitrary locations.
You want to do this by dispersing repeating/linking equipment to ensure 100% geographic coverage in a region.
Hey - They're called Cell Phones!
And cell phone networks even have several advantages over your proposed linked repeaters: The coverage is world-wide. You program it (dial a phone number) to talk to specific individuals. The system is designed to handle a number of communications simultaenously, so that one communication is not tying up the whole system. And there's even the technology now to dial into the internet chat room (echolink) if you want to broadcast or "work dx".
Of course the differences are that with a Cell Phone, you are the one paying for it rather than freeloading off of someone else's investment and efforts. And with a cell phone you're not able to make everyone in the region have to listen to you drone on for hours with your buddy about how terribly unfair the Morse code requirement is.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KA4KOE on June 18, 2004
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Why is it that anyone who posts even a mildly controversial article is held up to ridicule? Whatever happened to thoughtful, intellectual debate?
Never mind that if you spoke that way to the individual in person, in all probability you'd walk away with a broken nose or worse.
C'mon. Lighten up guys.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N3NDW on June 18, 2004
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Again I think everyone is missing the point. I would like to have seen the posts when someone years ago suggested repeaters.
If everyone lived out in a reagion without all the hills and valleys we have here in the east, then its easy to get good coverage simplex or with one repeater. But we don't, but that in its self was not the point. The original post refered to idle repeaters.
Now the idea that I have an HF rig in my car so everyone should have one is not the answer. If it were,we could carry the arguement to the point that you should have 1500watts be cause I do, or you should have a 50' tower because I do.
When your old and sick and in the nursing home, try to work DX without the HF rig and tower. Echolink fills that void.
Some people have HT's for the same reason you guys have the radios you have. One reason is that its a good entry level radio. I use an HT in my wife's vehicle because she doesn't want an antenna on it, and is not interested in ham radio.
If you hears a "Newbe" on the band and he is having problems, we should be trying to help him instead of blowing him off.
I know that there would be problems getting repeater owners to go along with the idea, but most of the problems could be solved with a repeater council where the owners could sit down and talk things out.
We had two airplane disasters in the western Pa area in recent years, with the big one being the 9-11 incident.
Ham radio played a major role at the crash site. It was in a remote area with very little cell phone coverage so repeater links were set up from the crash site passing traffic to the Pittsburgh area to the government agencies.
If we have another disaster like these, which we probably will, its important that we hams try and resolve these issues and be prepared to handle them.
I think these posts should be used to solve problems, not create them.
If you can do no more than spell check a post and make fun of someone then perhaps you need a different hobby.
The next time you are driving down the canyon pass in Calif., or in Colo. stop the vehicle and get out and go down over the hill for a quarter mile and try to get in to a repeater. If you can, great, but if you can't, you have a problem because your next disaster may be right where your standing.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC8VWM on June 18, 2004
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Well, so far my nose is still intact :) (Good point taken from the gentleman with the callsign KA4KOE..)
I also tend to agree with the issue that we shouldn't rely so heavily on repeaters.
If my HT cannot make a repeater with a dummy load antenna attached, perhaps it's time I consider a better antenna to accomplish this task. This is especially useful if for some reason all the local repeaters are off the air due to a power outage or other similar event.
Sometimes, when I am playing radio, I connect a dual band mobile antenna to my HT while I am sitting in the backyard on the deck. I can then talk on a repeater located over 60 miles away with only an HT!! (This is part of the challenge and fun for me)
Linking repeaters may serve in taking this challenging aspect away from this activity.
I do feel that internet linking has it place however.
For example, two cities could be linked together using the same frequency pair in both cities for certain events like skywarn or other similar communication events.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WB3HUO on June 18, 2004
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N0RKX,
Sorry OM but your batteries must be dying....
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N2KMF on June 18, 2004
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What is a repater? My guess would be a step-father...
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WA3KYY on June 18, 2004
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OBSERVER11 wrote:
"Here is a first step for you, just to get the ball rolling. Contact your repeater coordinator and ask for 2, 3, 8 pairs, and watch the laughter."
He's not talking about doing this with new repeaters but with existing repeaters that get very little use. What he fails to understand is that much of what he proposes is already possible.
First, there are already at least three relatively wide coverage systems in the DC area:
1) The NERA system
2) The MARC system
3) The Greenmountain Repeater Assocation.
Second they have Echolink and/or IRLP on at least one of the machines in these systems and if you know the node codes, you can link them to other local systems on either IRLP or Echolink.
While the MARC system was designed to provide HT coverage throughout Montgomery County and along the C&O canal and the Mall in DC, it has not fully achieved that goal and is adding additional receive sites to fill in the coverage holes over the next two to three years. The transmit coverage of the system is more than adequate for this goal.
The NERA system is quite extensive and covers most of the DC Metro area and into WV, Baltimore but is only on 440MHz. See http://www.qsl.net/nera/
The Greenmountain system covers most of Prince George's Country, DC and into close areas of adjoining counties.
However, as others have pointed out, repeater systems in general are not designed for HT coverage throught the footprint of their transmit coverage but for 10-50W mobile setups with unity or 3-6dB gain antennas.
Mike
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by PHINEAS on June 18, 2004
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N3NDW
"Again I think everyone is missing the point. I would like to have seen the posts when someone years ago suggested repeaters."
Well, anything new to give a tech class an advantage is not going to sit right with some old folks.
"If everyone lived out in a reagion without all the hills and valleys we have here in the east, then its easy to get good coverage simplex or with one repeater. But we don't, but that in its self was not the point."
I can agree with that.
"The original post refered to idle repeaters."
<Snip>
Let us not forget the fact that even though an amateur owns a repeater(Or Club), it is still a privately owned piece of equipment.
"Now the idea that I have an HF rig in my car so everyone should have one is not the answer. If it were,we could carry the arguement to the point that you should have 1500watts be cause I do, or you should have a 50' tower because I do.
When your old and sick and in the nursing home, try to work DX without the HF rig and tower. Echolink fills that void.
I can agree with that 100%.
"Some people have HT's for the same reason you guys have the radios you have. One reason is that its a good entry level radio."
I 100% disagree. I think this is part of the problem with new hams today. I never have believed that an HT is a good entry level radio. HTs are a crutch, and people have a tendency to get repeater dependent, instead of puting up an antenna, and trying to make radio contacts. Having an HT as a primary source of communication is just absolutlely dreadful!!!! Just like anything HTs have their place.
I have no problem with the poster's idea at all. I think in a perfect world, it would be a good idea to link All repeaters together, or at least be able to in an emergency. However, people put up repeaters for different reasons that may not be service oriented. I cant understand why these people just get real 6Meter radios, attach them to their computers, but up antennas at both locations, and link them over echolink. Then they could use their HTs all day long on both ends. If some one wants to join in, have them put up a link on their side of town. You know what this will acomplish?
1. They wont have to deal with Coordination.
2. They wont have to get snobbed off by repeater owners or clubs.
3. They will learn the responsibility of running such a system.
4. On 6 Meters they wont have to worry about the Freq Police.
5. They will be soley responsible for the up keep of the equipment.
6. They can tie up their equipment all day long day and night with out using every repeater in town, or hear complaints.
I know people that have done this. Just takes a little effort and time.
Phineas
K0KMA
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WA3KYY on June 18, 2004
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KF4VGX -If Nextel can be used for wireless communications so can a amateur radio operator with an HT :)
Yes and NexTel has quite a new million dollars invested in the infrastructure to make it work and it still fails under heavy use conditions or when the batteries at the cell site fail during an extended power outage or if the backhaul fiber links are broken.
Not that our repeater systems would fare much better but then we can fall back on simplex and portable repeaters when needed.
Our system (MARC) has huge battery backup with constant solar charging. We calculate we can run continually at full power indefinitely with 50% solar illumunation of our panels.
73,
Mike WA3KYY
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KB1KIX on June 18, 2004
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I like negative comments from individuals that don't have the courage to use their callsign in forum. Easy to shoot someones idea with your own anonymity.
I think the liked repeaters are a great idea, and nothing new either.
My club has the W1AW repeater, and it isn't linked over any geographical area - and it's a dead quiet repeater except for nets and rush hour traffic.
However, I have friends with a linked system that cover a larger area and we tend to have more general and enjoyable conversation.
I'm for linked systems, I think they make more sense in most areas.
I have also found tha those individuals that bicker about such systems are also those least likely to even slum down to the VHF/UHF range anyhow and just want something else to complain about since code/no code has become such an annoyingly overdone topic.
Jonathan
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Why Repeaters Should NOT Be Locally Linked
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by HAMS_R_FAT_PIGS on June 18, 2004
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We used to have several counties linked together at one time until some idiots waiting for a net that would begin in two hours kept yelling at people that the frequency was in use. The other counties soon discontinued the linked system and let the idiots with their even more idiotic nets have their fun on their own frequencies.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should NOT Be Locally Linked
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by KT0DD on June 18, 2004
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N6AJR Wrote:
>Folks ya got to use the right tool for the job. If >you want great coverage you need a great antenna and >perhaps even a modest amount of power. Ht's are ment >for local stuff, Mobiles go a bit farther, and a >1500 watt 2 meter base with stacked 22 element x 8 >antennas will do moon bounce. Its a matter of using >the right tool for the job.
While I agree for the most part, I would like to remind the group that cellular telephone technology is based upon the original Amateur repeater system idea. They are a bunch of relatively close spaced repeaters, linked together, and most cell phones only put out 600 milliwatts, and get good coverage. So there is an advantage to doing this for amateur HT users, and we need to use our frequencies more before wireless computers or RFID tags take over & kick us out. 73.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K1CJS on June 18, 2004
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Although the idea has some merit, the problems caused by such a linking would certainly outweigh the advantages. What is needed is a way to selectively link one repeater to another in the area the person requesting the link wants to talk to--but there are easier ways to talk to those people, the HF bands, and the 6 meter band for those who only have a technician license. That is where the longer distance ham communications should be done, not on a 2 meter repeater. I agree with a statement made earlier--some people expect too much from their "shack on a belt."
As to selective linking, a method has been in use that does just that. Its called echolink. It has also been mentioned earlier.
Although it is always good to try to do more with what we have, the linking idea just isn't a good idea.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N6AJR on June 18, 2004
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Another option would be to use a different repeater to cover a different area..
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC8VWM on June 18, 2004
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They could be linked together in a fan dipole configuration.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K0RGR on June 18, 2004
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Aaaaarrrgh!!!!
KF4OSS - keep thinking - we need new ideas, even if they aren't new to everybody! You never know what might come about if you never ask the question or make the suggestion. Please don't be discouraged by the 'anti' forces.
K0RKX - you're right, of course, Hooterville is up here in Minnesota, due north of Bugtussle, IA.
Sadly, the original post brought out several of our best ranters. It got the anti-repeater ranters, the anti-HT ranters (including me), the anti-Echolink ranters, and several more.
I do think you should investigate the voting receiver idea, as someone expressed previously. I've seen voting receiver systems used to great advantage in hilly parts of California. But, yes, they are subject to interference, so some means of controlling that is needed.
I think with a bit of effort, you could set this up with Echolink. Just set up the remotes as sysop nodes listening on the repeater input freqency with transmit disabled. Then, link the remotes to a central Echolink node talking to the repeater. That would either work or create a monster feedback loop - I'm not sure which! If the answer is 'feedback loop', it would be best to discover this on only one repeater!
You could use the rigs and computers of outlying club members when they aren't using them! The number of nodes is limited only by the number of connects your main node can support. A friend of mine just put up a node on a simplex frequency - we might have to try this!!! Our local system has a dead spot on the north end of town ... hmmmmm... this is sometimes a problem in public service events. But several members live out there...
This system would have some advantages. If the kind of interference mentioned earlier happens, just shut off the remotes one link at a time until you find the one affected. Then you can DF it from there. (Don't call FCC when you find the offender - lynching is much more effective!). I think Debco Electronics sells a neat phase discriminator DFer kit for $39.
Also, the main repeater is not dependent on the Internet for operation.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N0XMZ on June 18, 2004
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In El Paso, there is the amigolink system (www.k5elp.org) that covers the whole city with VHF and UHF repeaters. Then there's the New Mexico Megalink system (www.urfmsi.org) that covers the entire state of NM and parts of TX, CO, AZ, and OK. I even heard a mobile station from Ut on it last night. This V/UHF system is very nice. I can key my HT with 1/2 watt and talk to Albuquerque and most points in between from just about anywhere in town. It truly is an amazing system. I have never heard a station abuse the system(s) nor do I expect to hear it.
In my opinion, linked repeaters should use only RF links and they should all be solar powered with battery backup (of course). That way, the users don't have to rely on ANY outside organization such as the phone company, the electric company, or an ISP. These systems may go down in an emergency situation (i.e. earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, terrorist attack, etc.) If a linked system is dependant on anyone else besides the hams that run it, the hams that use it run the risk of being cut off from each other at a time when they may need it the most.
The stand-alone and private repeaters do serve their purposes well. There's a VHF machine that covers a great distance thanks to it's high perch atop the small mountain range that cuts through the middle of town. Coverage is very wide but linked systems are still easier to work with HTs.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC0JTC on June 19, 2004
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I was sent to the capitol area about 6 months post 9/11. Took a handheld and checked into a couple of nets in VA where I was staying. Other than that I didn't here much traffic on the repeaters that I had programmed into my handheld. I purchased a VX-1R at HRO and was able to hit a repeater from the capital mall and had a short QSO with a ham in the area.
I moved to Des Moines IA a little over a year ago from KCMO. KC has a very nice broad coverage repeater system that had 4 remote locations at one time and is down to 3 now and has lost some of its effectivesness. Des Moines and central IA has a several excellent linked repeater systems that utilizes PL tones to open up the breadth of the systems. It is a God send during Skywarn during tornado season. It also makes it possible for the morning commute bunch to carry on casual conversations over much of central Iowa.
I thought repeater systems were there to be used. Since the boom of repeater use has come and gone with the proliferation of cell phones. It is time to rethink how we use these systems. I am aware that repeater systems were designed with the mobile operator in mind. But do we have to stop there because of our inability to adapt. It appears to me that many repeater control systems having existing linking capabilities have been and are being underutilized. At the present time it is fairly economical to utilize VOIP or other existing technologies to link systems. There are numerous examples of these systems enhancing the emergency capabilities of repeater systems when these technologies are applied. In a metropolitan area, such as the Capital, I can't imagine a reason for not creating a system that could be utilized during a disaster or other emergency. After the fact? If we can do it in Central Iowa.... Why not DC?
Steve
KCØJTC
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K7IHC on June 19, 2004
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What's wrong with the presence of linked VHF/UHF repeaters in an area? Here in N. Calif, there are a number of high-quality VHF/UHF linked open repeater systems that cover large (thousands of square miles) areas. I personally know a few of the owners. Virtually all of them make it a goal to achieve very good performance from the systems with H/T radios. The owners and frequent users of the systems also encourgage other hams to *freely use* the systems. Most of the systems have affiliations with ACS or RACES, so they do get some public service use. The ragchews on the systems are mostly technical or pertain to topics of general interest. They also give the system owners info on how well the various parts of the system are working. As for *tying up* a repeater system by using it (huh?), all of us try to pause a bit between transmissions to allow priority traffic to break in if needed.
Maybe I should offer my sympathy to other VHF/UHF repeater users in other areas of the country. We rarely experience any intentional interference (kerchunkers, jammers) on the repeaters in this area. Courteous and friendly hams abound in No. Calif, from all I've heard...
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This is not a good idea and here's why
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by KD4LEI on June 19, 2004
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Ducting on the east coast in the summer is good for doing your own ragchew on simplex, but not for other repeater owners in other states (especially to the north). I know several times in the past while living there you could bring up 2 - 3 other repeaters from NJ, Pennsylvania to other parts of Virginia, while ducting was going on. Other repeater owners didn't appreciate it and had to do whatever to minimize on the intereference to their machines.
Sure, they could PL the machine, but I would have to think most if not all of the PL tones are used on one repeater or another.
In theory what you propose is good, but bringing up 2 - 3 repeaters at one time in other states not participating in this would be a bad thing.
I'm not saying you can't do this or that it won't work, but you will run into problems that will take working out.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N1OFJ on June 19, 2004
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I think linking umpteenth repeaters regularly is not a great idea. It ties up too many machines, and if someone needs to use one....well their all tied up. If you want consistant portable coverage, your solution is to add satellite receivers/voting comparator. It works, because we did just that on 440. We have better portable coverage throughout several counties than any law enforcement agency does. For all the hard work we did, it has paid dividends many times over.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K0RGR on June 19, 2004
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More thoughts on using Echolink to support satellite receivers -
If it's a typical VoIP setup, you will have a feedback loop! The Echolink gateway will be repeating what the remote is sending on the same frequency. Unless the remote can't hear the link station, the result will not be desirable. I'm not sure if PL'ing the receiver at the satellite receive site would help or not. In any case, the stations accessing the satellite receiver would have to be much weaker at the main repeater site than the Echolink link station.
Now, if Echolink is hardwired to the repeater, you don't have this problem. Nor would you if the uplink is on a different band, as it probably should be under current rules (this is one of the things that will be fixed by the latest proposed rules changes from FCC).
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W6EM on June 19, 2004
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Lots of fire and brimstone over a suggestion to improve repeater coverage in a relatively flat area.
First, thanks for the idea. It shows that you were thinking about trying to solve the poor coverage problem that low level repeaters have.
Using echolink at the sites to directly interconnect sounds very useful. Again, provided you could get cable or DSL service at little to no cost. Using satellite stations would introduce delays and the complex problem of two stations keyed up on the same repeater input frequency at the same time: The HT or mobile and the Echolink linking radio. Assuming, of course, one linking radio per linked repeater frequency.
Having lived most of my radio life in northern and central CA, I was spoiled. Repeaters at 3000 to 6000 foot elevations were the norm, so HTs really are effective. And, from what I've experienced in other mountainous places like CO, NM, and HI, you can do it all with an HT. Well, now that I live in the flatlands of Tropicanaville, FL, I can just about toss my HT collection, unless I'm within 10 miles of most repeaters. As someone said, useful only for hamfest simplex. There is a linked system here, and allows mobile coverage for 40 to 50 miles to the north. The problem with repeater space is greatly exacerbated here, since to get decent coverage, you're talking getting co-residency on a TV or FM tower. At about 1000' above average terrain. The bottom line: lots of de-sense, intermod, feedline loss (even with 7/8" hardline), and then there's the lightning strikes.....
Linked repeater systems are both fun to use and really effective to broaden coverage. Hey, if its too expensive to do it with UHF and microwave links, try voice over IP, using control pair frequencies. A hybrid approach.
I'll never forget the thrill years ago of using an HT while on Maui, talking via the 34/94 machine ontop Haleakala which was linked with another two machines on two other islands. I worked a guy ferrying an airplane to Honolulu from the mainland and he was about 50 miles out.
The bottom line is the group or groups who own the machines. If they want a linked system, its up to them, since they foot the bill. But, it sure sounds like some innovative interconnection would be possible using some hybrid of the usual UHF link and voice over IP. Heck, it might actually save buying a few sets of cans and link radios, which aren't cheap.
73,
Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K1CJS on June 20, 2004
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KF4OSS--
First, I apologise for being even slightly negative on my previous post. The others who posted that ideas should keep coming are right, so don't get downhearted--keep thinking!
Second, why don't you get together with some of the area repeater owners/trustees/operators/clubs and suggest a system whereby the use of repeater controllers that will accept touch tone commands to turn on links to other repeaters selectively, using microwave, 440 mhz radios, etc. to do the linking would be introduced. If you can do that and convince every repeater group to co-operate you'd have gone a long way toward your goal. (Good luck doing it, hams and especially repeater owners are a very opinionated lot. What seems like a good idea to one is utter rubbish to another. Sorry for the bit of negativity, but that needed to be said.) That way everyone would be happy, the repeaters wouldn't stay linked and produce headaches and bad feelings between clubs or individuals, and the area in question would have near total coverage.
The only problem in the scenario is the extra money involved in acquirring and getting the various parts of the system up and running. Keeping a repeater going is a major financial undertaking--you never know when something will happen necessitating the outlaying of more money, in some cases large amounts of money.
Anyway, keep thinking and keep proposing, you never know when an idea will find everyone in favor of it. For example, look at echolink and VOIP systems in general. They started out as an idea just like yours that gained acceptance and support to grow into the modes they are today.
Good luck and have fun!
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N6JSX on June 20, 2004
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I recommend for those interested in linking systems to talk to the various licensee's of the California Condor Connection, SouthWestern (AZ/NM/TX) Zia Connection, A system that is vbrought up during holidays in the CA centeral San Jouqin Valley system, and a very good system (name unknown) that links repeaters across South Dakota following I-90 from WY to Min. It kept me awake on a long boring drive.
These systems have had their problems like when No-Code's came to be and the 10-4 good buddy truckers got their licenses, they virtually took over the Condor connection. But in time it all settled down and is back to being a very good system from the Bay area to San Diego to Las Vegas to Kingman AZ - and it may have grown further.
But like all systems there are OTHER repeaters that cover portions of these areas that service the locals so they can still chit-chat. I just have a problem using Echolink as the basis for this type of system as non-HAMs can get on the link or foreign HAMs not properly ID'ing when on a USA repeater. But the Echolink sysops can lock out countries (if they would).
Remember in these big links if you get one/few turds/LIDs it screws it up for all - so SUPPORT your local T Hunters they are an invaluable resource to eliminate these type of problems! If you don;t have T Hunters get a few HAMs togehter and start a hunt - you will find out it is REAL fun and gets us back to our primal instincts of the HUNT but using radio waves and equipment that can be bought or made.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 20, 2004
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Here is a current list of Repeaters that Amateurs have an option to link to ( - R - Repeater )
when using Echolink as you can see its is well supported.
There are just as many and more linked radio systems
( -L - Linked systems
Some are linked into other Systems that are hardwired to other repeater systems ,
These Amateurs that offer their time and dedication
to offer these systems to traveling hams and just for the sake of communications are well appreciated by fellow hams .
There are 122 Conference servers that are free to use ,these conference servers offer the systems more bandwidths if there is a need to connect more repeaters than your standard dial up can handle . With this many Repeaters and equal links you have a Amateur's nextel at your DTMF fingertips 73 and Good luck with your ideas .
4X4ARC-R Tel-Aviv 438.650 R70 ON 20:56 26350
4Z4IZ-R HAIFA R-12 Rpt. ON 20:55 169676
6L0WB-R Wellcome to 6L0WB ON 03:20 134522
7K2EQC-R Tokyo ON 02:50 159160
AA0IY-R Concordia, MO (USA) ON 13:29 51683
AA3RE-R Schwencksville,PA ON 13:42 5194
AA3RG-R PineGrove, PA 146.640 ON 13:57 149493
AA5SG-R Ellisville MS - 442.250 ON 13:02 1545
AA7SS-R Bremerton, WA 440.600 ON 10:57 64045
AA7ST-R In Conference *NWFARC* ON 10:57 190123
AB4KK-R North AL linked rpts ON 12:55 63231
AB4KN-R Fayetteville, GA 444.60 ON 13:56 8268
AC0Y-R WALT DISNEY WORLD AREA ON 14:03 86525
AC1V-R Vernon, CT ON 13:20 156894
AC4XQ-R Miami Florida U S A (1) ON 13:55 24265
AC5TX-R Abilene, Texas444.000-R ON 12:53 114887
AD5C-R In Conference *NCFLLINK* ON 13:53 161717
AD5KZ-R Dallas, TX ON 12:20 187365
AE4NR-R W4HF- R N WILKESBORO NC ON 13:53 122567
AG4GK-R Private Link ON 13:55 159542
AH2DX-R QK-24MA GUAM ISLAND USA ON 03:55 50526
AI4EM-R PBG, Fl English/Spanish ON 13:53 177077
DB0ANT-R Wolfenbüttel 439.225MHz ON 19:54 116642
DB0CAL-R Conn. to BUSY 19:52 169269
DB0DS-R Dortmund 438,650 (free) ON 19:57 143097
DB0DTV-R DF0HHH ATV - DB0FS ATV ON 19:53 184936
DB0DXM-R Fort Fun/HSK,©DL5DK ON 19:55 133456
DB0ERG-R 439.175 JN68CQ ON 19:52 96135
DB0FDA-R Darmstädter Stadtrelais ON 19:54 128216
DB0FIG-R Friedrichshafen438.7875 ON 19:49 9911
DB0GWD-R Greifswald RV54 (R3) ON 19:54 185580
DB0LBI-R Bielefeld Herford wait ON 19:47 114241
DB0LE-R »» 1. LEIPZIG - LINK «« ON 19:54 111100
DB0MOR-R BUSY: Local QSO BUSY 19:56 181085
DB0NBB-R Neubrandenburg JO63PN ON 19:52 190654
DB0ND-R Relais Donnersberg ON 19:56 98495
DB0OVL-R Landshut, 439.375 MHz ON 19:55 92820
DB0OX-R Norden Ostfr.-germany- ON 19:55 168628
DB0RD-R ham.darc.de/echolink ON 19:56 56402
DB0RDT-R Ingolstadt Germany ON 20:20 85859
DB0SHA-R Hannover (JO42UJ) free ON 19:52 105783
DB0SL-R Greising JN68MU ON 20:46 109451
DB0UA-R Augsburg 145.6375 free ON 19:55 14422
DB0VOX-R FMT Nuernberg 439,250 ON 21:20 71665
DB0XE-R KASSEL (145.775MHz) free ON 19:55 114005
DB0XW-R Wittmund (JO33UN) free ON 19:54 162698
DF5AR-R DESSAU DBØDES 70cm ON 19:53 152563
DJ4IM-R Allgaeu-Repeater DB0ZD ON 19:52 75518
DL0CUX-R link to DB0CUX 70cm ON 19:52 7048
DL1MFQ-R DB0CP Pfaffenhofen 70cm ON 19:55 112578
DL1OBH-R Deister DB0LL 439.300 ON 20:00 113191
DL5MGD-R Link to DB0PM Repeater ON 19:58 123393
DL5NC-R KB3V rptr nr Wash. DC ON 13:55 158354
DL6NDU-R Link to DB0WZ ON 19:52 140636
DL9GRB-R Link to DB0DBR ON 19:53 159122
DO0SMZ-R Mainz 439.2125 MHz ON 19:48 100823
DO1HEN-R D B Ø S Y «» HAMBURG (1) ON 19:51 153627
DO1SGL-R DB0RIG-Göppingen439.050 ON 19:54 87586
DX2N-R In Conference DX2N-L BUSY 11:09 163605
DX4CAR-R Naga City, Philippines ON 02:02 189170
EA1URO-R In Conference *ESPANA* BUSY 19:58 77525
EA3RCB-R In Conference *LARMC* ON 19:55 113456
EA7EUY-R MONTORO-repet 145.675 ON 19:50 61726
ES3AT-R Conference Test [0/8] ON 20:20 173417
F1SFY-R Ste Geneviève <60> ON 20:00 108951
F4CEP-R Rubelles 430.525 + 9.4 ON 19:55 165199
F6GLS-R PARIS Montparnasse ON 20:00 172106
G4EGU-R Kent (UK) Hub ON 18:55 186689
GB3AI-R Amersham / 145.6875 ON 18:57 4969
GB3BN-R Bracknell, Berkshire ON 18:52 1938
GB3CG-R Cheltenham, Off-air (1) ON 17:56 190502
GB3DX-R In Conference *ENGLAND* ON 18:53 7125
GB3EK-R Margate www.GB3EK.co.uk ON 18:52 48360
GB3HE-R Hastings 1066 ON 18:57 115293
GB3HH-R Room for 10 stns (1) ON 18:57 97616
GB3IE-R PLYMOUTH / DEVON ON 18:56 27871
GB3IR-R **North East England** ON 18:52 1353
GB3KD-R Kidderminster RV63 ON 18:58 187981
GB3LV-R London [0/2] ON 18:20 155403
GB3SB-R SCOTTISH BORDERS E/LINK ON 18:53 116678
GB3SK-R www.sidesaddleasp.info BUSY 18:52 186506
GB3WO-R In Conference *UKCHAT* ON 18:57 170343
GB3XN-R Langold Notts [0/2] ON 18:20 153126
HB9CF-R Arni UR 145.6625 MHz ON 19:53 43416
HB9FW-R Multimedia ATV Repeater ON 19:53 90617
HB9GL-R Mollis-Fronalp 438.975 ON 20:12 41140
HB9G-R JN36BE Genève 439.100 ON 19:54 190784
HB9HAI-R Davos 439.350 CTCSS ON 19:50 83400
HB9RF-R Zug, 438.675, JN47fe ON 19:52 81765
HB9RW-R Parpaner Rothorn JN46TR ON 19:59 108513
HB9UF-R Mt. Pilatus 438.800 ON 19:56 40107
HB9Y-R Valais French 438.650 ON 19:15 66814
HB9ZF-R "Bachtel" Zurich East ON 19:57 37913
HG2RUB-R Dorog/Hungary 434.625 ON 19:57 150187
HG2RVD-R In Conference HG2QN-L ON 19:57 185833
HI8NXP-R DOMINICANA 146.850 ON 13:51 47767
HK3AVR-R Bogota Radio Club ON 12:34 77741
HP1RCP-R out of service ON 13:57 85993
IK0YYY-R Rome & Vatican City ON 19:55 27156
IK6IHL-R In Conference *ITALY* BUSY 19:52 55555
IQ8BB-R A.R.I. Salerno JN70JQ BUSY 19:57 164443
IT9CMN-R R5 - Castelvetrano (TP) ON 19:54 96020
IW0RQH-R RU2 Foligno PG ON 19:53 74827
IW2DCK-R In Conference *ITALY* BUSY 19:51 89637
IW3AMQ-R Bolzano/Bozen R4 IR3W ON 19:53 12500
IW3HRD-R Rptr <IR3UT> VENETO IT ON 19:53 125100
IW7EAV-R U8 430.200 +1.6 TA ON 20:00 139486
IW9BAX-R R1alfa Montelauro BUSY 19:55 43614
JA1LNB-R Welcome to Japan CQ CQ ON 02:47 2944
JA6APT-R SSTV,,FORUM ON 02:49 3192
JA6NKA-R Kagoshima U Rptr CQ CQ ON 02:56 4601
JJ3LWP-R /3 Shingu City Wakayama ON 03:06 159471
JM3QEB-R Wakayama Japan ON 02:55 162026
JP1YIP-R JDXA Yokohama #1 ON 02:57 53122
JP1YIS-R Shinagawa, Tokyo, JAPAN ON 02:55 43986
JP1YIT-R In Conference *JAPAN* ON 02:52 161644
JP1YJC-R JDXA Yokohama ON 02:53 187505
JP2YGM-R JDXA Izu-city ON 02:52 187510
JP2YGN-R JDXA Numazu ON 02:51 187511
K0AJW-R Minot, ND 147.270 ON 12:57 158030
K0AMC-R St. Louis MO AMARC ON 13:01 185485
K0AMP-R Ashland, NEW ON 12:54 184665
K0DMF-R North Branch,MN 443.875 ON 12:52 23958
K0FAO-R Kansas, El Dorado ON 12:57 29478
K0FHC-R Minneapolis 442.925 ON 12:58 150260
K0HU-R Humboldt, Iowa ON 12:59 147180
K0JTA-R So.MN 147.36 s3com.net ON 12:53 9636
K0RGR-R 146.625 Rochester MN ON 12:58 19475
K0WSN-R Williston, ND ON 12:42 161596
K1CWB-R LANCASTER, PA 6M&440RPT ON 13:51 24905
K1IMD-R Eastern LI, NY USA ON 13:20 93225
K1JDS-R In Conference *LUSO-USA* BUSY 13:56 99007
K1OF-R Norwalk, CT 147.39 MHz ON 13:58 12904
K1ST-R Marlboro, MA 442.250 ON 13:56 51434
K1SV-R Shaftsbury, VT 146.835 ON 13:56 68420
K2ADA-R HOLMDEL, NJ 442.15 ON 13:48 26627
K2GE-R Sayreville, NJ 443.200 ON 13:53 155481
K2GXT-R In Conference *POLICE* ON 13:56 25308
K2RF-R Roxbury, NJ 146.985 ON 13:55 136823
K2TC-R NYC 447.025 LI 445.725 ON 13:57 70250
K3CFY-R North Huntingdon, Pa. ON 12:29 72508
K3CR-R Penn State Repeater ON 13:58 7345
K3MRC-R Washington, DC-145.43 ON 13:53 55247
K3PHL-R Phila PA (RPT LNK Only) ON 14:20 45280
K3UKE-R 224.160 Beaver Cty. PA ON 13:59 97611
K4DPD-R Dayton, TN 147.390 ON 13:52 74849
K4GPS-R Jupiter Farms FL ON 13:58 12637
K4MFD-R Greeneville,TN 145.410 ON 14:10 57796
K4NRW-R Roanoke/Blacksburg, VA ON 13:49 38599
K4OBX-R Hatteras Island NC ON 13:54 2003
K4PPD-R Shallotte, NC ON 13:56 47419
K4SER-R Williamston NC 145.410 ON 13:50 167957
K4SIX-R Orange Park, FL 53.19 ON 13:53 23169
K4WBT-R Waxhaw, NC ON 13:43 84335
K5AXW-R Univ. Texas Austin Rptr ON 13:01 136958
K5CAR-R CHOCTAW, OK 147.09 RPTR ON 12:58 47285
K5FRC-R Fannin County ARC Texas [0] ON 12:20 143902
K5GUD-R Northwest Oklahoma ON 12:55 24204
K5HMZ-R San Bernardino, CA ON 10:56 162383
K5IHK-R Houston,Tomball 146.72 ON 12:52 7212
K5JRR-R Hurst TX ON 12:55 156296
K5MOT-R Motorola ARC N Texas [0] ON 12:20 119161
K5ZRO-R Vicksburg, MS [0/20] ON 12:20 39000
K6BIV-R Mt. Diablo, CA [0/15] ON 10:20 62384
K6CCC-R Station in test only ON 10:53 177017
K6INC-R In Conference *SCAN* BUSY 10:52 38384
K6IRF-R WWW.MRILP.NET ON 23:00 13887
K6IXA-R Atwater, CA ON 17:56 174995
K6RDJ-R Modesto/Mt. Oso, CA (2) ON 10:54 180057
K6RTL-R Sacramento , Ca [0/9] ON 10:20 151827
K6SA-R Saratoga, CA ON 10:20 85531
K6SOA-R Laguna Beach, CA 445.66 ON 10:52 133376
K6TJS-R In Conference K6RDJ-R ON 10:56 126601
K6VGP-R Mt Disappointment, LA ON 22:56 46847
K7NWS-R Puget Sound, WA ON 10:50 106642
K7QT-R Highland, CA (1) ON 10:52 119178
K7SDC-R Eastern Utah ON 11:20 64264
K7SOB-R In Conference *WAWV* ON 13:54 140739
K7YI-R Eastern Utah, USA ON 11:20 69883
K8BLP-R EAST LIVERPOOL,OHIO (1) ON 13:56 30022
K8KHW-R S.East,oh 443.600 ON 13:51 182681
K8KY-R Hamilton Ohio 444.650 ON 13:57 76509
K8SA-R Salt Rock, WV ¤ RPT® ON 13:53 2175
K9CTF-R WorldLink Repeater ON 12:50 66741
K9DC-R Indianapolis IN 442.375 ON 12:20 8414
K9GPS-R Lawrenceburg IN 443.875 ON 13:53 110888
K9IU-R Bloomington,IN ON 12:20 173065
K9JAC-R Hubertus WI 146.85 ON 13:16 114168
K9JQE-R Green Bay, WI 223.94/R ON 12:57 69044
K9KE-R Godfrey IL, St Louis MO ON 12:55 55580
K9KJM-R DOOR CO WI 444 Repeater ON 12:54 24967
K9KK-R Norman, Ok (1) ON 12:54 4244
K9PO-R Cary, IL. 146.655 rptr ON 12:50 173547
K9SOA-R Louisville, KY 146.70 ON 13:52 124812
KA0KMJ-R In Conference *MN_CONF* ON 12:55 150438
KA0NWV-R In Conference KL0NE-L ON 12:53 23832
KA0RFO-R Lake of the Ozarks, MO ON 13:01 154449
KA2AYR-R Weldon Spring, Mo (1) ON 12:55 127349
KA3IRT-R Moon Twp, PA 444.150 ON 13:56 176150
KA3RQR-R Fairfax County, VA ON 14:19 85290
KA4FFP-R hollywood fla (1) ON 13:57 8188
KA5ETA-R Oklahoma City, 442.1 (1) ON 12:52 28599
KA5QDG-R Alvin/Houston 145.110 ON 12:52 94621
KA6AMR-R Duarte, CA ON 10:20 191484
KA6TGI-R San Francisco Hispan (2) ON 10:54 68042
KA9VZD-R ANTIOCH, IL ON 12:51 143487
KB0CGJ-R REDWOOD COUNTY MN ON 12:51 29141
KB0FJI-R Hutchinson, Ks. ON 12:56 105011
KB0FK-R lees summit mo 444.825+ ON 12:55 91492
KB0RBY-R Oskaloosa,IA 444.625 ON 12:54 95817
KB0RST-R Dunkerton,IA 444.850 ON 12:54 165066
KB0TAA-R Pittsburg, KS - 147.24+ ON 12:54 86991
KB1AEV-R In Conference N1JBC-R ON 13:47 147345
KB1CDI-R Rocky Hill Connecticut ON 13:53 13782
KB1KHO-R Ipswich PS ON 13:56 178106
KB2EAR-R WA2WSK/R ON 13:55 108044
KB2FAF-R Cortland, NY ON 13:20 171371
KB3BUV-R Indiana, Pa. A.R.E.S ON 13:53 89080
KB4REC-R Knoxville, TN 53.47 ON 13:52 19024
KB5AVY-R NEW ORLEANS {{4 Rptrs}} ON 12:55 7052
KB5DBR-R Ponca City, OK ON 12:51 189792
KB5LS-R LUFKIN, TX (3) 444.575 ON 13:08 44787
KB6C-R Los Angeles (2) ON 07:07 105489
KB6LED-R San Francisco bay area ON 10:53 45808
KB6MET-R In Conference KG6QZB-R ON 10:53 181183
KB6MRC-R In Conference *SEANET* ON 09:53 128676
KB6OZX-R Riverside California ON 10:52 161623
KB7RSI-R Las Vegas, Nv [0/8] ON 03:20 29232
KB7YQY-R Battle Creek,MI ON 13:57 13354
KB8KGU-R 442.200 Lake Ozarks MO ON 13:30 96620
KB8RWG-R Oscoda Mi. 146.900 ON 13:52 62141
KB8WLW-R Cleveland,OH 220 / 440 ON 13:57 146520
KB8YVY-R NW OHIO 4 RPTR LINK ON 13:26 20336
KB9KRI-R Valparaiso,INChicagoIL ON 12:55 5762
KB9MWR-R Green Bay, WI ON 12:51 191767
KB9VSQ-R WI Mauston K9UJH Rptr ON 12:55 10297
KC0ARV-R Grand Junction CO ON 11:55 129934
KC0LUN-R Nixa, MO, U.S.A. ON 12:59 113667
KC0MWG-R Iowa - Algona ON 12:57 51020
KC2CWT-R Carmel ,Ny [0/8] ON 14:20 168441
KC2EUS-R Gloversville, NY ON 13:20 9969
KC2GYN-R CLOSED ( New Jersey ) ON 13:53 48394
KC2IVI-R East Greenbush, NY [0/8] ON 13:20 48899
KC2JES-R Lyndhurst, NJ 441.25 (1) ON 13:54 53188
KC2LAI-R In Conference *TRIARC* BUSY 13:54 95540
KC2LRX-R Wilkes - Barre - PA (1) ON 13:48 162954
KC4QLP-R Elizabeth Cty NC 145250 BUSY 13:56 56703
KC4YOZ-R Go To -> *LINUX* Conf. BUSY 13:56 96611
KC5EZZ-R San Angelo, Texas ON 12:57 76362
KC5JBJ-R SW Louisiana & SE Texas ON 13:00 187881
KC5MAH-R In Conference *AZBACKUP* BUSY 12:55 29500
KC5MAI-R Harlingen Texas 443.650 ON 12:53 23340
KC5UQU-R Crossett, AR 146.64rpt ON 12:57 177991
KC5WQI-R HOUSTON TX. (español) BUSY 11:52 153895
KC5YVU-R Net Tues eve 7PM C (1) ON 12:39 28821
KC6PXL-R MEX & USA *AIRONE* BUSY 10:56 40822
KC7GHT-R Phonix, Az USA ON 10:20 173098
KC7GSA-R Freedom Net - 146.64 ON 10:59 146640
KC8JLW-R Dowagiac Mi 442.500rptr ON 13:01 29681
KC8KGZ-R Flint,MI 147.26 ARES ON 13:52 119335
KC8NDZ-R Charleston, Wv 145.430 [1] ON 14:20 60297
KC8NWA-R Youngstown, OH KD8ED RP ON 13:53 133527
KC8QBL-R Xenia, OH - 444.4375 + ON 13:54 189246
KC8RKV-R N8KW-R Kent, Ohio USA ON 13:53 159944
KC9DEP-R Kankakee, IL ON 12:56 160716
KC9ENV-R Elkhart,In USA ON 13:52 181845
KD0ZP-R Sioux Falls, SD USA ON 12:55 74079
KD1CY-R Fairhaven, MA 145.490 ON 13:20 4611
KD4BNQ-R Ripplemead Virginia ON 13:55 38124
KD4UTV-R Deland FL (2) ON 13:58 25554
KD5HNM-R Stephenville, TX ON 12:53 82300
KD5IAE-R Indiahoma, OK. ON 12:54 156901
KD5LWU-R Cortez, Colorado ON 11:53 24336
KD5RQK-R Little Rock, AR 443.75 ON 12:53 138614
KD5SL-R Baton Rouge, LA ON 13:00 123103
KD5YBE-R Saltillo,MS 146.835mhz ON 12:52 173941
KD6AFA-R Calif, usa Español (1) ON 10:55 138314
KD6FW-R Madera, Ca 146.70- ON 10:55 88988
KD6PBM-R Private conference [0/8] ON 10:20 154088
KD6RC-R EchoIRLP [0/4] ON 10:20 164295
KD7QJO-R Salem, OR 440.800R ON 10:54 158271
KD7TXV-R Las vegas NV USA ON 10:50 82970
KD7YOH-R Snohomish WA ON 10:54 151878
KD9GY-R Lake Zurich, IL ON 12:54 78073
KE0BX-R Ottumwa, IA - 145.410 ON 01:01 13213
KE0VN-R Fargo, ND 443.900 ON 12:52 43702
KE2D-R Ocean County NJ ON 13:57 100897
KE3DR-R 146.655 N.CAMBRIA PA ON 13:57 73069
KE4SCS-R Petersburg, VA ON 12:54 54356
KE4TTE-R In Conference G3SNA-L ON 13:20 2397
KE4YDH-R N9EE TampaBay, FL ON 13:52 79540
KE6PCV-R Corona, CA [0/4] ON 10:20 104546
KE6YEP-R Los Angeles Californ (1) ON 10:54 29930
KE6YRU-R SAN DIEGO/OCEANSIDE ON 10:54 142913
KE7KD-R In Conference (2) ON 10:52 70785
KF2GG-R SwapNet Tuesday 8PM (2) ON 13:51 7515
KF4AON-R Thomasville, GA 147.240 ON 13:53 127188
KF4IFC-R CorbinKy444.275t79.7 ON 13:56 16883
KF4NFI-R kNOXVILLE TN 147.375 ON 13:56 51167
KF4RLZ-R In Conference *AZBACKUP* BUSY 13:59 90501
KF4VGX-R Happy Fathers Day ! ON 13:54 3702
KF6JBN-R Korean Ham Radio USA ON 10:46 120828
KF6JEE-R Riverside, Ca, USA ON 11:20 185102
KF6JWT-R LOS ANGELES, CA-ESPANOL ON 09:14 129882
KF6PTF-R In Conference *TAGPUAN* ON 10:35 89537
KF6REK-R San Franciso, Ca. ON 10:55 64372
KF6YB-R La Mesa, CA 449.900 ON 10:53 128982
KF8RC-R Maysville,Ky ON 15:54 192264
KG4FZR-R ATHENS,TN,USA ON 14:04 157168
KG4GAK-R Tampa Florida ON 13:51 99089
KG4IDD-R PALM COAST FL 145.470 ON 13:48 24216
KG4LEY-R Augusta,Ga 145.290 ON 13:48 17579
KG4SVX-R Palm Bay, Fla. Gateway ON 13:20 142664
KG4WMS-R 147.315 Alexandria, VA ON 13:56 106612
KG4YZY-R Port Richey, FL 442.650 ON 13:54 4429
KG5YO-R La Grange, Tx -146.80 ON 12:55 79757
KG6BAJ-R 443.025 Grass Valley Ca ON 10:56 1053
KG6HSQ-R Fallbrook, Ca. ON 10:56 109227
KG6QZB-R Selma Ca. Español (2) ON 10:55 10191
KG6TN-R In Conference ON 10:55 80623
KG6TZT-R Grass Valley,California ON 10:54 178297
KH0DL-R SAIPAN BUSY 03:53 58813
KH6JPL-R Waipahu, HI - Repaired ON 07:55 26488
KH6KWS-R Pt. to Pt. Rptr. Link ON 07:54 23437
KI4BMD-R 443.825 Jackson,TN ON 12:56 130089
KI4FBL-R ky,oh,wv kg4dve-r ON 13:53 186251
KI4RF-R daytona beach fl ON 14:03 50666
KI5ZS-R Abilene Texas 145.490 ON 12:56 19334
KJ0L-R Des Moines, IOWA w0 (1) ON 12:53 12132
KJ5BJ-R >>>> N W Arkansas <<<< ON 12:53 7625
KJ7IY-R Portland, Oregon Ready ON 00:22 82962
KJ7YE-R Eden, Ut. USA ON 11:20 137021
KJ7YM-R Casa Grande, AZ ON 10:54 1491
KK4CZ-R LOUISVILLE,KY145.41 ON 13:56 23816
KK4PH-R Durham, NC 224.26 ON 13:52 92446
KK6KD-R SAN DIEGO, CA.*ESPANOL* ON 10:59 4580
KM6KW-R Sacramento , CA BUSY 11:01 56551
KM9E-R Indy, IN 443.25 T100 ON 13:53 2725
KN4QB-R Knoxville, TN 444.175 ON 13:54 120563
KP4MCR-R Humacao, Puerto Rico ON 14:02 78470
KQ6YG-R san lorenzo,ca. ON 12:56 60422
KQ8H-R ASHLAND, OH 442.80 + ON 13:54 77111
KR4GQ-R Boca Raton Fl ON 13:56 115609
KU4ZS-R email KU4ZS for access ON 14:10 4617
KU6V-R "San Francisco Bay Ar [0/4] ON 10:20 114065
KY4X-R Glasgow, KY - USA (1) ON 12:56 138267
LA1G-R TELEMARK , RV-2 ON 19:52 148160
LA3QMA-R Norway, Bergen ON 20:09 86747
LA5NR-R Narvik RV 62 ON 20:03 81633
LA8AW-R Echoirlp Kvernalan ON 19:20 179239
LA8TR-R Trøndelag ON 19:54 133619
LA9XR-R EchoirlpOslo/Asker ON 22:20 3422
LU3AVO-R Bs.As.Rep Argentina ON 15:56 56421
LU3VAL-R In Conference *ARG2CONF* ON 14:55 135868
LU4AAO-R Radio Club QRM Belgrano ON 14:54 164086
LU4FM-R In Conference LU4HH-R ON 14:53 117302
LU4HH-R Radio Club Cordoba A (3) ON 14:49 119006
LZ3WE-R Sliven KN32DP ON 21:52 166183
N0BKB-R Greenfield, Iowa ON 12:52 11362
N0KQG-R Go To *MO_NET* 158958 BUSY 13:22 84139
N0OBA-R Denver, CO VHF@5,880' ON 11:58 10079
N0OBL-R Albert Lea, MN 146.88- ON 12:52 106208
N0RGA-R Mitchell, SD ON 12:54 169989
N0RVD-R In Conference *MO_NET* ON 12:54 188581
N1JBC-R In Conference KB1AEV-R ON 14:20 55920
N1LFE-R In Conference IRLP 9877 ON 13:20 7505
N1MNX-R Pepperell, MA ON 13:53 88008
N1WPN-R FN42KS 447.275 ON 13:54 160659
N2BJ-R New Lenox, IL ON 12:57 27022
N2BR-R Algood,TN 444.425/R ON 13:02 29961
N2FEP-R 147.360 (5) NY Sar Co ON 13:53 78811
N2FXE-R Rocky Point NY ON 13:53 25569
N2JAC-R Rochester NY KE2MK rptr ON 13:52 44856
N2KEJ-R * Quinton, NJ 53.710 * ON 13:53 8888
N2QOJ-R KB2N Clifton OEM Repeat ON 13:55 185734
N2YXZ-R New York USA (1) ON 13:59 54747
N3APP-R ERIE PA ON 13:55 9534
N3FE-R Wellsboro, PA [0/2] ON 13:20 6409
N3NIA-R Ridgway, Pa. ON 13:52 164446
N4AI-R Somerset, KY 224.30 R ON 13:58 168854
N4ARK-R Nashville TN 444.2/R ON 12:55 118425
N4DAV-R Tampa ON 13:20 7960
N4DSL-R Harrisonburg VA 443.15R ON 14:00 37200
N4GWM-R Cutler Ridge 443.275 (2) ON 13:53 165893
N4KHQ-R Dahlonega, Ga 146.835 + ON 13:42 137890
N4KWT-R Louisville,ky 443.975/R ON 13:52 41623
N4NW-R Stafford, Va FM-18 VHF ON 13:56 52555
N4PBV-R Louisville,Ky 444.500/R ON 13:55 19595
N4UXY-R Alabama, Mobile 444.5 R ON 12:53 3003
N5FL-R list w5jr@arrl.net ON 13:49 72938
N5IUF-R Dallas, TX ON 12:20 191307
N5MJ-R Alamogordo, NM ON 11:53 44167
N5OBQ-R MARSHALL, TX 146.860 ON 12:52 85719
N5QJE-R Rosharon/Hou,Tx 147.160 ON 12:58 174660
N5SMN-R AUSTIN, TX 146.94 RP (1) ON 12:52 43388
N5SN-R Farmersville TX 441.6 R ON 12:52 135385
N5ZXJ-R Temple, TX 145.310 ARES ON 12:56 1947
N5ZZ-R Atlanta, Georgia ON 13:56 80188
N6ICW-R Sacramento ON 10:55 119995
N6KYD-R Simi Valley Ca. (2) ON 10:51 46479
N6OBY-R REDMOND, WA 440.675+ ON 10:55 23888
N6OEI-R SAN DIEGO COUNTY SYSTEM ON 10:59 39556
N6QDY-R Western U.S. Link (3) ON 10:43 3333
N6RDE-R In Conference IRLP 9503 ON 10:20 92518
N6SGX-R Ontario, Ca. ON 11:20 191902
N6WB-R Escondido, CA ON 10:55 2846
N6WZK-R Los Angeles, Calif ON 10:52 50750
N7AKK-R CEDAR CITY UTAH ON 11:53 91510
N7BYU-R BYU- Provo Utah 145. (1) ON 11:59 96806
N7CK-R Mt. Bigelow, AZ ON 10:20 189135
N7GAD-R SLC UT - 448.350 Repeat ON 11:54 132045
N7NW-R K7LED/R 224.12 Wa (10) ON 10:55 90069
N7PIR-R Private conference [0/2] ON 10:20 132225
N7QXO-R VANCOUVER, WA 444.650 ON 10:44 22930
N7TGB-R Reno, NV ON 10:20 7926
N7WGR-R TACOMA, WA USA ON 10:55 13630
N7YHE-R Billings, MT. 147.000 ON 11:54 104664
N7YMM-R Covina, CA (1) ON 10:58 123069
N8AD-R HF REMOTE base ERIE (2) ON 13:56 54056
N8ARY-R W8CSO/R Grand Haven, MI ON 14:09 73469
N8FIS-R Fremont, OH. (146.91) ON 13:56 164976
N8HEE-R Charlotte Mi. ON 13:20 114032
N8HHV-R Alliance,OH 444.600+ ON 13:53 84446
N8KQQ-R Muskegon, MI 442.950 ON 13:54 102808
N8OBU-R dansville mi lansing ON 13:54 83306
N8OIE-R 444.2875 (1) ON 13:52 155269
N8PJN-R Flint, MI (F.A.I.R.) ON 13:52 126229
N8QZO-R 443.375-Adrian,Michigan ON 13:55 154594
N8WEN-R Urbana, OH 147.375 ON 13:55 143787
N9DVD-R Connersville, Indiana ON 12:57 176637
N9MTE-R HUNTINGTON INDIANA ON 12:58 175166
N9QIP-R Wis Interstate Network ON 12:55 18006
N9UWE-R Danville, IL 443.450 [0/2] ON 12:20 40849
N9ZD-R Oak Forest, ILL ON 12:50 161122
NA1RA-R CT- USA www.na1ra.com ON 13:55 1124
NA6DF-R In Conference WA6BZS-L ON 10:55 8807
NA6M-R In Conference WA6BZS-L ON 12:54 4443
NB2A-R NYC public safety li (1) ON 13:59 58497
ND9Z-R Kaukauna, WI 444.45 ON 12:50 90694
NE1B-R Hudson- RRA-MARC ON 13:55 15837
NG4EM-R 147.375 Burnsville NC ON 13:55 29353
NH6QJ-R Honolulu (PINOY R/): ON 07:57 26655
NH6XO-R Land Of Good Weathe (1) ON 07:55 45176
NL7XH-R Fairbanks, Alaska ON 09:55 87854
NQ4Y-R 145.41 Monteagle Mtn TN ON 12:57 2043
NR7J-R Tucson, AZ (1) ON 11:08 67751
NS1N-R Norwell, MA, US 443.600 ON 13:51 25209
OA4BJU-R In Conference *LARMC* ON 12:58 152006
OA4CN-R In Conference *LARMC* ON 13:06 161185
OD5TE-R Beirut Repeater ON 20:53 70784
OE2XBB-R Schafberg / St.Wolfgang ON 19:55 155168
OE3XOW-R JN78JQ Nebelstein ON 19:53 176149
OE4XUB-R Brentenriegel (JN87EP) ON 19:57 156782
OE5XBR-R JN78dh Linz Froschberg ON 19:51 182166
OE7XOI-R Landeck/2540m R79 free ON 19:53 96498
OE8XCK-R Klagenfurt 445m R70 ON 19:55 177594
OE8XNK-R Gerlitze 1906 m R7X ON 19:50 168584
OE9XVJ-R Pfänder 1064m asl ON 19:54 6550
OK0BCA-R Link to OK0BCA,BN,BMD ON 20:00 77355
OK0BH-R Brno 439.000 MHz ON 19:55 88111
OM0OET-R N. Zamky 439.225 MHz (1) ON 19:54 114903
ON0GB-R Brakel, 145.6125 MHz ON 19:55 81560
ON0GRC-R In Conference PE1ARN-R BUSY 19:57 171471
ON0LG-R 145.650 + 430.275 ON 19:51 187696
ON0OST-R Oostende , 430.100 MHz ON 19:51 82010
OZ6REX-R Bredsten - TX 29.680MHz ON 19:55 183662
OZ9REF-R Stubbekøbing ON 19:53 143312
P29NW-R Port Moresby ON 04:01 170264
PA0LSK-R DARES > pi3nym 145.750 ON 19:51 42015
PA1FP-R DARES: Hoorn 439.3125 ON 19:54 108552
PA3EKI-R Gateway to Rotterdam (1) ON 19:56 1211
PA3GWH-R Voorburg link PI2HGL 70 ON 19:48 163521
PE1AGF-R Amsterdam PI2ASD ON 19:55 79711
PE1ARN-R In Conference ON0GRC-R ON 19:55 107015
PE1FLR-R Purmerend (Amsterdam) ON 19:52 176858
PP2CER-R Goiânia/Brazil .·. (6) ON 15:03 76556
PS8VM-R RPT - VELHO MONGE ON 14:55 185858
PT2GDX-R Brasília-DF RPT 145.290 ON 15:01 182604
PU2KKU-R Rio Preto - SP ON 14:56 116947
PY2KAW-R Araras - SP - Brazil ON 14:44 108865
PY2KCE-R Campinas - SP Brazil ON 14:54 136640
PY2PTF-R 147.090 JAU-LABRE-SP ON 14:54 50787
PY5SNP-R ST.ANT.PLATINA-PR-BR (1) ON 14:58 47116
PY7MS-R JABOATAO DOS GUARARA (1) ON 15:02 29402
S55UCE-R CELJE, SLOVENIA 434.900 ON 19:52 28304
S55UTR-R Trbovlje, Slovenija ON 11:44 47093
S55VCE-R Trbovlje, Slovenija ON 19:53 167520
S55VXX-R MARIBOR, SLOVENIA (2M) ON 19:59 28870
SK0RIX-R Stockholm (R1) 145,625 ON 20:17 53929
SK0VF-R Stockholm Sweden Ru10 + ON 19:52 51732
SK5RHQ-R VASTERAS SWEDEN 434.775 ON 19:57 41308
SK7CA-R Kalmar R0 (Max 5) ON 19:53 164541
SK7HW-R OFFLINE BROKEN RADIO ! ON 19:55 24393
SK7REP-R Malmoe, Sweden ON 19:55 28220
SM0VPH-R Jane repeater system ON 19:54 7485
SM2UWM-R Connected (max 5) (2) ON 19:52 131384
SM2VBK-R Sweden Arctic Repeat (1) ON 20:04 7815
SM5LBR-R Fjaerdhundra FJD100 ON 19:55 19340
SV5DDR-R RHODES ISL 430.650 + R2 ON 20:51 167989
SV8G-R Chios Island 145.600 ON 21:00 134579
T72GR-R republicS.Marino jn63fw ON 19:56 129794
TA2KA-R Ankara Antrak R 2 ON 20:49 105111
TA2KD-R Ankara TRAD R0 ON 20:52 180590
TA2KW-R ANARAD-IST R7 Repeat (1) ON 20:46 101062
TA4KD-R MARMARIS MARD. re (1) ON 20:47 166572
TA5KK-R TRAC/Konya R-5 ON 20:53 165341
TA6KA-R Samsun R3 ON 20:56 140226
VA2CAW-R rimouski ON 13:54 177770
VA2MD-R 224.220 MHz Quebec City ON 13:48 79084
VA3CTR-R Markham 442.275MHz ON 13:58 151155
VA3RWZ-R Meaford Link To Gorring ON 13:44 43568
VA3SF-R SSPB Rptrs Toronto Can. ON 13:57 6398
VA3SLT-R Sioux Lookout, ON [0/20] ON 12:20 162246
VA3TTP-R Sarnia On.147.210 ON 13:55 27563
VA4IRL-R Brandon, MB [0/5] ON 13:20 158422
VA7DEP-R Delta BC 444.425 VE7RDE ON 10:55 168180
VA7INC-R In Conference *SCAN* BUSY 11:18 2802
VA7TF-R Kitimat, B,C, Canada ON 10:41 38373
VE1CR-R Sydney Cape Breton ON 14:53 104517
VE1GO-R Cape Breton Island ON 14:59 43498
VE1II-R Truro, NS [0/2] ON 11:20 161248
VE2LGO-R La Tuque 147.950 - 3,9M ON 15:01 169992
VE2NBZ-R 3-Rivières 449.075- (1) ON 13:51 165043
VE2REA-R In Conference IRLP 9216 ON 13:20 155300
VE2RFL-R SAGUENAY jonq.449.100 - ON 13:57 76480
VE2RHJ-R Jonquière.PQ.Canada ON 13:47 148167
VE2RLN-R Trois-Rivieres ON 14:04 167831
VE2RXY-R Le Bic,Quebec,CA ON 13:20 150779
VE3AA-R Timmins, Ont.147.06+ ON 13:53 122823
VE3BMR-R Collingwood, Ontario (1) ON 13:58 153412
VE3CRD-R North Bay,Ont VE3ERX ON 17:17 135672
VE3FLF-R Toronto VE3RTC VHF Rpt ON 14:02 108868
VE3HOA-R Carleton Place/IRLP2 (1) ON 13:55 156062
VE3IWJ-R Brockville 449/444 100H ON 13:49 158695
VE3KES-R Barrie, Ont 147.150Mhz ON 14:03 8294
VE3MUS-R Huntsville Ontario Canada ON 13:20 150444
VE3OC-R SSPB Rptrs Toronto Can ON 13:58 8838
VE3RAK-R Toronto / IRLP Node 2450 ON 13:20 2068
VE3RBM-R Kitchener,On ON 13:20 152298
VE3SED-R Baden - 442.2 & 53.370 ON 14:01 84510
VE3STR-R St.Thomas, Ont. Ca ON 20:20 72886
VE3TTT-R London Ontario Canada ON 14:01 10741
VE3XXL-R S-W Ontario Canada ON 14:01 57276
VE3YQK-R Kenora ON Canada EN29S ON 12:40 94071
VE3ZRR-R Renfrew, Ont. 146.910- ON 14:02 131218
VE4PAR-R Winnipeg 145.170Mhz- (1) ON 12:50 6851
VE4UMR-R WINNIPEG [0/8] ON 12:20 153663
VE5BOB-R Prince Albert, Sask. BUSY 11:59 39549
VE5DT-R Lloydminster, 146.940- ON 11:54 168709
VE5NIP-R Nipawin, SK, CANADA [0/8] ON 11:20 171597
VE5WEY-R >>Weyburn,Sk. 146.700- ON 11:52 24953
VE6LOS-R 146.685- Edmonton, AB ON 12:13 90351
VE6ROT-R Lethbridge, AB ON 11:47 113371
VE7RBA-R Victoria BC 147.120+ ON 10:57 57999
VE7RHS-R Vancouver, Canada ON 10:50 190638
VE7RTN-R Barriere, BC ON 10:54 148574
VE7RUN-R PR. GEORGE BC 147.000 ON 10:53 83936
VE7US-R VicBc145.130WF7W (1) ON 10:53 141866
VE7VDU-R port coquitlam,CANADA BUSY 10:57 126445
VK2JTP-R Sydney [Nth] 438.175 ON 03:21 6020
VK2RCH-R Coffs Harbour N.S.W ON 03:55 150073
VK2RCT-R Campbelltown ON 03:21 179921
VK2RCZ-R Blacktown, AUS ON 03:21 173790
VK2RMR-R Mt Riverview ON 03:21 190829
VK2RNC-R Newcastle 146.975- Rpt ON 03:54 126558
VK2RSC-R A U S T R A L I A Lism ON 03:56 174957
VK2RWG-R Wagga Wagga EchoIRLP ON 03:21 179190
VK2US-R Sydney,VK2RBM 147.050 ON 03:21 162478
VK3RFY-R In Conference *TAGPUAN* ON 03:21 3037
VK3RMH-R NE Melbourne EchoIRLP [0/4] ON 03:21 140587
VK3RTL-R Melbourne, Australia ON 03:21 1046
VK4KCK-R Redcliffe 438.325 ON 03:54 188476
VK4RBN-R Brisbane 147-000 ON 03:55 27620
VK4RKP-R Mt Crosby 146.725 Mhz ON 03:53 7878
VK5RAH-R Adelaide Hills ON 03:21 182294
VK5RNE-R ADELAIDE Australia (2) ON 03:27 41479
VK6RLM-R Perth West-AUS ON 01:54 57801
VK6RMW-R Mt William WA EchoIRL [0/4] ON 01:21 187815
VK7ZCR-R hobart tasmaina ON 04:02 176335
VK8AR-R Alice Springs, AUS ON 02:50 51294
VU2NRO-R N I A R HAM CLUB ON 23:20 133507
VY1MB-R In Conference *RAQI* ON 10:45 181351
W0BXR-R Moline, IL 146.64 ON 12:52 155942
W0PM-R Springfield, MO 145.19 ON 13:24 42351
W0RK-R Hutchinson, MN 147.375+ ON 13:04 142671
W0TX-R Denver, CO UHF@11,500' ON 12:08 4140
W0VHQ-R Sheldon, Iowa. USA ON 12:54 102345
W1BRI-R 446.825 Milford, MA ON 13:51 3819
W1CDM-R SAN DIEGO, CA ON 10:55 1314
W1DIO-R Milford, NH ON 13:53 4624
W1MED-R Faulkville, GA ON 13:52 23386
W1MRA-R MMRA Marlborough, MA ON 13:58 94940
W1NSA-R Silicon Valley Gateway ON 10:46 122294
W1PIG-R Augusta Me 145.390 ON 13:57 15061
W1QI-R Danbury, CT 147.30 ON 13:53 1037
W1RJC-R Dartmouth, MA 443.800 ON 13:20 4259
W1YSW-R Boston, MA- 147.360+ ON 14:00 117424
W2NH-R NFMRA Athens, Vermont ON 13:53 182551
W2NJR-R New Jersey ON 14:20 21005
W2NQS-R In Conference *ITESSM* BUSY 13:56 30085
W3HQ-R West Chester, PA ON 13:54 105747
W3HZU-R Keystone VHF York, Pa ON 13:53 9211
W3ICF-R Frederick, Md. 146.73 ON 13:56 14613
W3LWW-R Greensburg, PA 147.18/R ON 13:54 116416
W3UD-R University Of Delaware ON 13:58 71786
W3YJ-R Univ of Pittsburgh Rptr ON 13:57 177325
W4ERT-R Taylorsville, NC ON 13:49 56135
W4INJ-R Sunset Beach, NC (1) ON 13:56 93598
W4LJM-R Hodgenville, Kentuck (1) ON 13:53 12501
W4NR-R 441.975 Ft.Laud. FL. ON 14:07 10725
W4VUM-R University of Miami ON 13:59 11745
W4YMT-R Harlan KY ON 13:53 20173
W5BI-R Private System ON 11:54 9749
W5BXJ-R Malvern, AR 147.360+ ON 12:57 147360
W5DEL-R Oklahoma City, OK 145.250- ON 12:20 164667
W5DFW-R Fort Worth Texas ON 11:51 125526
W5LSV-R Club Rep Leesville, LA ON 12:52 91260
W5MET-R Houston TX 444.35/103.5 ON 12:27 5790
W5NGU-R Denton Tx 444.050 RPTR ON 12:59 165165
W5NRU-R Ellisville MS - 145.230 ON 13:02 4145
W5PFR-R Clinton, Mississippi ON 12:46 112793
W5TWY-R In Conference W5TWY-L ON 11:54 148387
W6CO-R Napa Valley 441.800 ON 10:53 70359
W6CX-R Mt. Diablo, CA ON 10:20 133896
W6DYL-R San Jose ON 10:40 93234
W6EMS-R In Conference *CNARN* BUSY 10:55 101809
W6FM-R California Central Co [0/8] ON 10:20 68906
W6JCY-R In Conference *TAGPUAN2* BUSY 07:22 43500
W6JWS-R FELTON, CA 440.850 94.8 ON 10:57 77455
W6KAP-R Volcano,CA Sac. Valle [0/8] ON 10:20 107315
W6PXT-R Long Beach BUSY 10:57 111973
W6SPT-R Sonora, Calif. ON 11:01 189986
W7AOR-R Las Vegas NV ON 02:21 102884
W7NTF-R Graham, WA 147.14/R ON 10:54 9426
W7RTK-R Okeechobee, FL 146.700 ON 13:53 3505
W8EHH-R Winter Garden, FL 34787 ON 13:56 74414
W8EQ-R Lima, Ohio 444.925 ON 13:44 17883
W8FSM-R FentonMI 442.35/224.62 ON 13:57 41083
W8MOP-R BLUEFIELD WV. ON 13:54 18104
W8MSD-R Wheeling, West Virginia ON 13:48 141375
W8MTD-R Tiffin, OH ON 13:46 188650
W8QLY-R MVARA, Youngstown, Oh ON 14:06 92746
W8TVC-R Traverse City Michigan ON 03:37 56464
W8YEK-R Delphos,Ohio ON 13:55 52301
W9ADS-R URBANA, IL - UNIV OF IL ON 12:59 8231
W9AP-R Glenview, IL - 147.090 ON 12:55 107690
W9EEJ-R Indpls IN 146.88 RCAARC ON 12:53 72474
W9GFD-R Galesburg, IL ON 13:00 111827
W9SRO-R CHICAGO-147.15,107.2HZ ON 12:54 16481
W9UFF-R Peoria, IL. 146.76 Mhz ON 12:54 97114
W9UVZ-R Appleton WI ON 13:18 51569
W9YPC-R MARKHAM.IL CHICAGO ON 12:53 74214
WA0RJT-R Farmnet rf.org ON 12:53 162535
WA0VLL-R Minn, MN 146.88 Rptr ON 12:56 20719
WA1NQP-R NAUGATUCK,CT 444.20 RPT ON 14:10 43981
WA2CRF-R Mahwah,NJ 224.06 k2EE-R ON 13:56 174415
WA2FBT-R Endicott 147.255T100hz ON 13:55 73034
WA2JWJ-R Staten Island New York ON 13:55 128362
WA2UMX-R Saratoga, NY (5) ON 13:48 109767
WA3BXW-R S.E. PA. 147.3 @131.8hz ON 13:56 88314
WA4GDN-R New Port Richey, Fl ON 13:56 112155
WA4YZY-R Pineville, Ky ON 13:57 92076
WA5YZD-R AUSTIN, TX 444.1 RPT ON 12:56 43010
WA6BAI-R Tulare County, CA [0] ON 10:20 152747
WA6GML-R In Conference KB6C-R ON 11:59 118469
WA6JQB-R In Conference KB6C-R ON 03:15 129467
WA6MSN-R Visalia, CA USA ON 10:20 173713
WA6RQD-R Southern California [2/4] ON 10:20 3157
WA6TWF-R Santa Ana, CA ON 10:55 119108
WA9FDP-R Gillespie, IL ON 12:59 160582
WA9ORC-R CHGO FM Club 146.76 (1) ON 12:58 62478
WB1GQR-R Bolton, VT 145.15 ON 13:57 97406
WB2BQW-R S EAST NY 8 STATE SIMO. ON 13:53 14070
WB2B-R 146.82 Camden,NJ USA ON 13:57 154821
WB2IXR-R YORKTOWN N. Y. 147.015 ON 13:55 23645
WB2JPQ-R EDEN,NEW YORK 14057 ON 13:55 57780
WB2KAO-R Rochester, NY ON 14:02 78007
WB2REM-R NJ 442.65 W2ZQ REPEATER ON 13:51 1285
WB3LGG-R Cochranville, Pa ON 14:16 78781
WB3T-R Wytheville, VA 146.895 ON 13:57 146895
WB4CGD-R Orange Park, Fl. EM-90 ON 13:52 80108
WB4QDX-R NE Atlanta, GA 444.00 ON 13:53 23551
WB4TJO-R Bay Minette Al.444.375 ON 12:51 53565
WB5CYX-R NW ARKANSAS 147.00 - ON 12:58 28613
WB5IUZ-R In Conference *WB5EGI* BUSY 11:57 122075
WB5NFC-R Mountain Home, AR ON 12:20 41398
WB6BJM-R Hollywood - CA ON 10:58 90001
WB7WBJ-R In Conference *WB5EGI* ON 11:56 44014
WB8CQV-R South Charleston, WV ON 13:53 127341
WB8CXO-R 147.33 Akron, Ohio ON 13:54 92910
WB8NJS-R BARA RPTR, Bethel, OH ON 13:50 90735
WB8SMC-R Dayton, OH 147.135+ ON 13:57 43988
WB8YOJ-R Columbus 444.300 ON 13:51 116990
WB9RNW-R Simi Valley, CA ON 10:51 142798
WC6O-R San Fran NO PCs L R OK ON 10:50 3850
WC9V-R Lovington, IL` BUSY 13:02 108442
WD4JPQ-R Greenville, NC 145.35 ON 13:55 73724
WD4LVO-R *Welcome All Amateurs* ON 13:54 147120
WD4SCD-R Largo,FL 147.03 9am10pm ON 13:53 155568
WD5GSL-R Greenville TX 147.16R ON 13:11 150310
WD7F-R N.E.Tucson146.34/.94 (1) ON 11:02 1125
WD8CHL-R 444.125 Lorain, Ohio ON 13:57 166619
WD8JTJ-R DEBARY, FL ON 13:23 62180
WD8RFS-R NE Minnesota 7 Rptrs ON 12:55 60332
WH0ABR-R Saipan ON 03:49 188288
WO8Z-R COLS RAY HAM JAK: OHIO ON 02:11 7875
WP4AZT-R PUERTO RICO (1) ON 13:53 71871
WR2AHL-R Rochester, NY ON 13:47 75119
WR4AYC-R Coral Springs, Florida ON 13:54 46246
WR4MG-R 147.3 Warner Robins GA ON 13:56 178927
WR6AVM-R HONOLULU, HI UFN ON 07:56 45320
WR6HMB-R Half Moon Bay, CA [0/2] ON 10:20 172139
WR7CW-R Gillette, WY [0/4] ON 11:20 178354
WR7HLN-R MacDonald Pass MT 444.1 BUSY 11:30 111730
WT6G-R Sacramento, CA 145.37- ON 10:54 76320
WU7G-R Cheyenne Wyoming ON 11:45 140284
WU7Q-R echoirlp ON 10:44 154865
WV3Y-R Lanc.pa 146.805 Rpt. ON 14:08 146805
WV5J-R Germantown, TN ON 12:55 42620
WV6H-R Mt. Otay- San Diego, CA ON 10:49 2185
WW2N-R Pompey, NY ON 13:53 64224
WW6Y-R Victorville, CA ON 10:53 116007
WW7RA-R Bremerton WA 442.65 ON 10:57 121776
WW8GM-R Detroit, MI 443.075 ON 13:52 99846
WY4P-R In Conference *WY4P* ON 13:57 42423
WZ8E-R Bluefield, WV 443.625 ON 13:50 179776
XE1DGO-R /2 REYNOSA (1) ON 12:56 190939
XE1FH-R guadalajara, mexico BUSY 12:56 170400
XE1KP-R Ciudad de México (1) ON 12:54 121206
XE1PM-R MEXICO CITY ON 12:58 122208
XE1TUL-R In Conference *LARMC* ON 12:55 56942
XE2CRH-R EchoIRLP XE2CRH Ags [0/500] ON 12:20 132444
XE2LMC-R In Conference *LARMC* BUSY 20:47 37622
XE2MCC-R DURANGO (1) BUSY 11:56 22510
XE2NLI-R EchoIRLP XE2NLI Lina [0/50] ON 12:20 165375
XE3BAJ-R In Conference N9DMX BUSY 12:52 177838
XE3NO-R Oaxaca, Mexico ON 12:20 162242
YO2LIS-R Arad r7/ru749 ON 20:58 115722
YO2LIZ-R YO2B Semenic R1X ON 20:57 132151
YO5D-R Bistrita, Romania ON 21:51 54452
YO5KOP-R Mediesu Aurit-Satu Mare ON 20:52 148435
YO8SSH-R YO8S-Repeater-Suceava ON 21:03 130929
ZL1AMC-R Invercargill,Clinton ON 05:56 39201
ZL1VK-R Auckland, NZ, 147.325 + ON 06:01 6504
ZL2UFW-R New Plymouth,147.200 ON 06:01 156258
ZL3CAR-R 438.4 Mhz Christchurch ON 05:57 101553
ZL3UR-R Timaru 146.625- ON 05:55 183733
ZS2CLI-R East London, Sth Africa ON 20:05 103319
ZS5HAM-R In Conference IRLP 8427 ON 19:20 165323
ZS6FCS-R Pretoria, South Africa ON 19:54 185459
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KD5ALU on June 20, 2004
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Linked systes can work quite well and Oklahoma has a great link system. It is described below as taken from the TARC web sight.
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"W5IAS Repeater System
Beginning with the donation of a great deal of equipment, Tulsa Amateur Radio Club began building the W5IAS repeater system.
The network now has repeaters in Tulsa (443.850 and 443.000), Mannford (442.000), Tahlequah (442.225), Cavanal Mt (442.250), Muskogee ( 443.100), Stillwater (444.525), Okmulgee, (444.600), Talihina (444.625), Ponce City (444.700), Bartlesville (444.975), McAlester (444.975), Paris,TX (442.125), Fayetteville AR (444.925), Decater AR (442.850), Ketchum (444.875) and coming soon Daisy (444.400).
These repeaters can all be linked (and usually are) giving amateurs the ability to talk from northeast Texas to the southern part of Kansas and from I-35 to western Arkansas.
Tulsa also has repeaters on 145.110 and 147.045 which can be linked into the backbone when needed."
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This is an Open repeater sysem. To my knoledge it is all RF and no landlines.
I have also used a linked system that covers from Montana to Washington. I was able to have a QSO with a station in Yellowstone park while I was in Boise, ID.
And as to HT's what is wrong with them? It is more the TX/RX antenna of the repeater and location. While walking in downtown Tulsa with an HT, I was able to get into a repeater 40 miles away and talk with a mobile statin in Joplin MO. The signals both ways were full quiting. Only 5 watts required. If using HF, my signal probably would have gone right over him and no QSO would be possible. HF has its place and I enjoy it, but propigation is unpredictable. A linked system is dependable and does not tie up a system when used properly. We have very few problems here.
As for the original posters idea, if you don't think it works, tell him why constructivly. Isn't that what Elmers are supposed to do. Or mabey he does deserve to do taken out and flogged.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W7WRO on June 21, 2004
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Boy we sure know how not to communicate. Try to be technical and creative and all the dead beats come out of the wood work.
For one thing you can put together a complete ECHOLINK network in your area and never touch the precious over priced unreliable repeaters in your area. Repeaters are the last thing you want to use in an emergency. ECHOLINK is not the answer to emergency communications either. Like phone lines and repeaters, ECHOLINK can experience the same MURPHIES LAW of going out of service right when you need it. So the best plan is to have several options in place. Believe me when I say all communications have a habit of going out of service right when you need it, EVEN HF. Mother Nature dictates what communications is going to be working when. Since many of your local Cable TV and area Phone companies basically are AC powered with short term battery back up, the chance of Dial tone or broadband staying up during power outages is pretty limited. Thus if your local power goes out so does the local repeaters because if they just so happen to have a battery back up for the repeater it probably has not been maintained because of lack of access or money and time to be really reliable and tested on a regular basis. Thus maybe an HT would be useful, not that I'm an avid HT user but they work well every year when we use radio communications at the Worlds Largest horse drawn parade.
I guess I get tired of all the do nothing in our hobby. ECHOLINK is just another part of the hobby that gets us futher away from tubes and double throw switches, and it's hard for some of us to accept.
As for an example of a repeater linking system I have my own storey. Here in Wyoming we had a state wide system called the H.E.R.C. System, Hams for Emergency Radio Communications. It was started by one ham and when he was done at least 85% of Wyoming was in this system. It worked very well for several years. Then it started breaking down and certain people would volunteer their time and money and clubs would maintain their end and then it would go on for awhile and then it would break so on and so forth. You get the drift. Now it's been down for over a year and little or no plans to keep it going. Thus ECHOLINK comes along and what a great idea to link the entire state not just 85% but the entire 23 Counties and the state emergency agency now known as Wyoming Home Land Security. What a great addition to an already reliable RACES group. In the past the HERC system was part of the state emergency communications group where HF was not available at every EOC. If this sounds great it may or may not be but guess what this plans has never been brought up. Why because there are to many walls with people like what have been bashing this idea to ever get off the ground. If you are one of the later do you have a battery and generator back up for your 1000 watt station to run until the electricity comes back on. I think not.
What I'm saying is look at all the ideas in an open mind. Just because you don't understand someones idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. If we went by that mind set we would have never used plastic and look where we use it today.
I put up a ECHOLINK Simplex Link repeater at my house just for fun. I have had more stations using my Linked Simplex repeater than all the Repeaters here in my county. It was very easly done.
If I have offended you or anyone I apoligize I'm only trying to open the minds of people that can't move forward with change. If it doesn't work then your right but at least we tried. Communications is all this person was trying to do. I think he has an excellent idea and I would hope that he pursues it.
If anyone would like to know where I hang out on ECHOLINK I'm usually on the QRP Conference. Other than that my node is 154063.
Everyone have a great Day.
73 Scott W7WRO
w7wro2@bresnan.net
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KC0GQT on June 21, 2004
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Linking - Good idea
Internet Linking - Bad / Good idea
In Colorado where I used to live they have the "Colorado connection" (I think thats right), which is linked by simplex VHF. The system was almost always busy at any given time.
Linking is a good idea in that it the repeaters sole purpes is to extend low power stations. Internet linking is a can be a bad idea if / when power gives / internet connection dropped / Hacker / Virus / ETC... happens.
BTW...
It looks like repeaters have better coverage then Nextel in a lot of areas.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W6PMR3 on June 21, 2004
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Boy am I spoiled, living in the west where some of the repeaters are on top of some BIG mountains has brought us great coverage.
I can use my 5 watt HT to get into machines 90-100 miles away, not all machines, but good enough.
And with Condor on 220, I can use my Kenwood tri-bander to talk into Vegas or L.A. from northern California, sorry, I don't have a coverage problem.
Sounds like a local flat-lander problem to me.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W0RY on June 21, 2004
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Regarding the Colorado linked Repeaters..........
If you can not make it out to Colorado to experience a fine example of Linking Repeaters then take a look at the web page with details including a Map showing the Linking.
http://www.colcon.org/
The Linked repeaters are not the only ones in the state. We still have local repeaters that are not linked.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N6JSX on June 21, 2004
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Oh I got a ding that needs to be said.... My real HAMdom education came from when I became a born-again HAM getting out of 10 yrs. Navy and retested to get to Advanced. In So CA - you can run and HT but the norm is a mobile radio 35-50W when you're in a mobile with 5/8 wave to get into ,ountain top repeaters - NOT a HT with a rubber duckie inside a car as I find many many flat-landers in WI, IL, IN, OH operating. Go to QTH, QRZ, or eHAM and buy a real mobile radio.
Flat-landers if you can only got a HT then get a real antenna on the car and at home. I recomemend a "J" antenna above the top of your ROOF both mobile and at home. HT's just don't cut it with repeaters that are lucky to get up to 100-400 ft. Now don't forget good coax too; the cheap Radio Shack junk on VHF/UHF just don't cut it. You're only working with 5 watts so you cannot afford any loss at all. Mirage does make nice VHF/UHF amps - try one you'll see how much further you can talk!!!
Nothing against flat landers as I started as a flat-lander but I restarted in southern california techno-aerospace background. Many of the flat-landers did not have the luxury or the tutelage that I received. But antennas and coax does matter as well as 10-50 watts!
Now the next step is throw that stubby duckie in the trash - it is nothing but a helical dummy load. If you must run an HT get a real antenna that has some size to it. The longer the radiator (usually) the better! Don't operate the HT from you belt/hip as you belly role will attenuate the signal. Hold that HT in front of your face and talk, or be ready to hear the other end complaining about your scratch!
I'm originally from WI have lived in WI & IL and now live in OH. So I've seen what I say - these non-technical HAMs are GREAT guys but they need help with understanding what works and what doesn't. Just because the VX2 looks neat, as is tiny that fits in your pocket so nice doesn't mean it gets out all that far!
Bottom line get a real mobile radio running 50W and you may not need all this linking!
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4OSS on June 21, 2004
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Ugh,
OK. I didn't write this article because I'm some newbie that only has a 2 watt HT. For those that care, I'm a General with a heavy public safety background and lots of experience in the commercial and public safety two way sector. (Which is part of the reason I expect a repeater to provide decent handheld coverage).
And those of you who kept saying, "repeaters are not meant for handhelds..." that's just a load of BULL. That's exactly what they're meant for. Sure, they're meant for mobiles too, but come on...!
Look, here is ICOM's definition of a repeater:
Repeater
Radio systems, which receive incoming signal and re-transmit
it for extended communication area. Normally put on geographically
high locations for VHF/UHF hand portables.
[ Source: http://www.icomamerica.com/support/manuals/ham_radio_terms.pdf ]
Stop telling me to go out and buy a mobile!
I already have a 150-watt Motorola (Spectra) mobile radio installed in my vehicle - that wasn't the point of this article at all.
Anyway, thanks to those who replied with constructive comments, criticism, and/or support. (No thanks to those of you who acted like a bunch of HamSnobs and didn't provide any useful feedback at all).
Believe it or not, I submitted this article knowing that something like this would probably *never* happen. That would require a large group of hams from different organizations to put their egos aside and work together!
The purpose of this article was just to get the idea out there -- to get people thinking about some non-"traditional" ways of operating. That's it. Nothing more. Lighten up, and remember, it is only a HOBBY.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 22, 2004
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Well ! Let me tell you something , you young whimper snapper. Sorry couldn't resist. Do one thing for yourself and others . Enjoy this HOBBY by all means .Ignore the obvious and prosper . :)
Invite others ,
( We need our young to increase our rank's )
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by WA2JJH on June 22, 2004
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Sounds good. Even in the TRI-STATE area 2M repeater use is scarce.
As someone pointed out, it could be a bigger invite to jammers.
However it sounds like an activity that would bring hams from different groups together.
2M is so dead in my area. It was hot in the late 1970's, when the first synth H-T's came out.
Of course the control ops should have the codes to detach from the net, if things get whacky.
It also sounds good, because hams can say we have a coast to coast network for emergency traffic. The diverse locations would be a plus.
By all means link up four dead repeaters, and maybe you will get one diverse repeater group. Link up slowly. This way problems with people or equipment can be worked out.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by OBSERVER11 on June 22, 2004
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if you want wide coverage, go buy a low band SyntorX, put it on 10M FM, you will find lots of wide area coverage -- oh wait, sorry, you are a TECHNICIAN. I guess you are OUT OF LUCK or upgrade.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4OSS on June 22, 2004
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OBSERVER11: Haha, your ignorance continues to amaze me -- oh wait, no it doesn't. I'm actually a General, smart guy.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KG4GIY on June 22, 2004
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As a resident of Northern Virginia, and a frequent user of the various repeaters in the area, I have to say I am intrigued by the suggestion of linking the machines. As an EC, I find the idea of being able to talk from Prince William County to Prince Georges County with "just an HT" to be even more fascinating. And then REALITY sets in.
At the risk of offending Mr. Ross, I have some serious issues with the idea, at least on paper. Perhaps there are some things that can be done, but let me address the proposal as presented.
1) ASSUMPTION: Repeater underutilization due to lack of cooperation. I have to throw this out as a false assumption. I would argue that the Ole Virginia Hams, Woodbridge Wireless, Vienna Wireless, NVFMA, Mt. Vernon ARC, Bluemont Repeater Group etc. all have a very good relations and cooperate on a number of activities. I quite often switch between machines in Northern Virginia, DC and Maryland, and at no time have I been asked to "get off" a machine because I was not a member of that club or hadn't donated to the repeater fund. Further, one only has to listen to the Bull Run 50 or the MS Ride or the Marine Corps Marathon to see how well the clubs share their assets. As someone who is on the air during the day, I would argue that the repeaters are under utilized because most people, between 6am and 7pm are IN THEIR OFFICES DOING OTHER WORK! There are only a handful of us that are on the air during the day because there are only a handful of us that have the time. During "drive time," the repeaters are remarkably busy as anyone can attest to.
2) ASSUMPTION: Repeaters in the area have limited range. I have to throw this one out as well. Clearly the Bluemont Repeater (147.300) is so limited in range that it was chosen for Skywarn coverage for Northern Virginia. Last I checked you could clearly hit the machine from as far away as Morgantown, West Virginia, in the west, and Arlington in the east with a mobile rig and 50w. From my deck in Manassas, with a 5W HT and a rubber duck, I have run the Skywarn Net without any problems (as well as passing traffic at 7:30pm on the NVTN). The NV4FM repeater in Fairfax is also a limited machine - I think I need 3W to hit it from my deck...and standing in the center of Prince William County, in the middle of the county executive building, I can hit both the OVH and WWI machines with 5W. Clearly limited machines.
3) ASSUMPTION: Poor Mobile response. I can hit the SARA machine, in Stafford County from as far away as Dulles Airport (that is almost three counties - about 50 miles). Further, from I-66 and Route 50, there are about 6 repeaters (including one in Maryland) that have excellent coverage in the region of Norther Virginia with a 50W Icom and a mobile antenna - none of these machines have a poor response for mobile rigs.
EchoLink is the answer: I have to agree with the many detractors out there that EchoLink is not only not a good answer, but to leave the machines permanently linked would be a major disservice to the region. As we saw during Isable, EchoLink is a bottomless hole waiting for us to fall into. Stations were doubling with themselves and stumbling over each other as key information got lost in the noise. Further, providing the connectivity to the Internet from a repeater site is EXPENSIVE to the point that most clubs wouldn't under take it.
Now, does that mean there are not good reasons why the machines should not be linked. Yes and no. During an emergency, there are several arguments for linking repeaters. There are several other reasons not to link them and I won't delve into them here. The biggest stumbling block, beyond the technology, is COST. It COSTS money to get someone up the tower to point the linking antennas, it costs money to buy the controller cards and it costs TIME to train the various trustees in the codes and frequencies that are needed to bring up and tear down the links. Further it means getting a large number of folks together just to agree on things like what frequency to use, and then getting it all coordinated through T-MARC.
Finally, leaving the machines linked all the time takes them out of service for other things. I don't think a bunch of commuters on their way to where ever what to participate in an ARES drill - and who has priority in that case? How about the walk in Manassas at the same time as the motorcycle ride in Arlington? How do you interweave those two events? These are not make believe issues - the event calendars for Northern Virginia, Maryland and DC overlap to a great extent and the repeaters are a large part of supporting those events. On the Fourth of July alone, there are several parades that occur in the area at the same time - the machines would HAVE to be unlinked just to facilitate the events.
This is not a question of ill will, merely one of not enough knowledge of current usage. It is not the fault of ANY group in the Greater Washington Metro area that the repeaters are not linked or that they appear underutilized. It is a practical reality.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 22, 2004
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First off ,I would like to thank you for a well thought out post. And I didn't see where you insulted anyone.
Thanks for being in our Amateur ranks and knowing how to give an opinion without making our fellow amateurs
feel insulted.
I agree with you here and disagree,
Quote -I have to agree with the many detractors out there that EchoLink is not only not a good answer, but to leave the machines permanently linked would be a major disservice to the region. As we saw during Isable, EchoLink is a bottomless hole waiting for us to fall into. Stations were doubling with themselves and stumbling over each other as key information got lost in the noise. Further, providing the connectivity to the Internet from a repeater site is EXPENSIVE to the point that most clubs wouldn't under take it.
As I stated in a previous post . You only link what is necessary for the event at the time . Isabel was a rough experience I have to agree. I was there 28 hours using voip as an experiment. At the time there were two major problems ,the IRLP and Echolink were joined together . Neither of the groups new enough about how the other operated to be joined at this time ( My opinion ). Ego's clashed . But over all for the better the two groups set aside their difference and started to do a public service. To save lives was the main concern. The NWS was on the link as was getting reports quicker than having to go through the chain of commands. Reports were given through several states and counties.
It was by far from perfect experience .But we learn from our mistakes as amateurs. ( It was the first time). If you have repeater systems setup out of the affect area that can project back into the affected area to Ht' Mobiles etc it could work to an advantage when using voip to link.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4OSS on June 22, 2004
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2) ASSUMPTION: Repeaters in the area have limited range.
Keep in mind, Dave, that not all of us live where you do. I live in Springfield, and with a 5 watt HT standing out on my deck/driveway/whatever, I can't get into any VHF repeaters 99% of the time (I can key them but that's it). The only UHF machine I can get into fairly well is the NVFMA machine.
1) ASSUMPTION: Repeater underutilization due to lack of cooperation.
Actually, I have been involved with two clubs in the NoVA area that, to say the least, want nothing to do with one another. Sure, a lot of relationships look fine on the surface, but you can never really tell how things will work out once two or more groups get more involved with each other.
3) ASSUMPTION: Poor Mobile response.
I never really argued that. With a good 50-watt mobile, you can do a lot. HTs are the problem.
Again, I never said I wanted to link ALL the machines. To start out, I'd think that no more than three or four of the most INACTIVE machines be linked. Obviously, it wouldn't be a good idea to have all the busy machines (79, Bluemont, etc.) linked all the time! Duh! Again - this article is just a THEORY -- a CONCEPT -- an IDEA to stimulate the development and growth of the local ham community. I never said that it was REALITY -- and I fully understand that it probably never will be.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4OSS on June 22, 2004
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Oh yeah, almost forgot:
"Further, providing the connectivity to the Internet from a repeater site is EXPENSIVE to the point that most clubs wouldn't under take it."
That's the beauty of EchoLink. It doesn't require an Internet connection at the actual repeater site.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by W7COM on June 22, 2004
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I would look at using IRLP as it seems to be more configureable. I'll bring it up with you on "the other board."
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 22, 2004
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Oops ! NHC was in the link.,
Quote - I would look at using IRLP as it seems to be more configurable. I'll bring it up with you on "the other board."
With all due respect the two are one in the same respect.
Whats better ? In the judgment of the user.,
There Both voip, Linux ( IRLP ), Windows
( ECHOLINK )?
Saving lives , the main goal regardless.
Please bring it up on this board . You have a right to your ideas as a fellow Ham :).
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N7RX on June 24, 2004
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This idea would only work if wide-area repeaters were specifically designated as such and made off-limits for QSO's whose duration is more than a few minutes.
My experience with wide-area repeaters is that they invariably become chat channels for a small social clique which has no capacity to contribute in any way to the maintenace of the system and no sense of propriety regarding it's use. These folks will tie up a repeater for HOURS on-end under the pretense that as long as they allow breakins they are following proper etiquette. Since nobody wants to listen to the clique's crap all day, nobody listens at all and the utility of the repeater as a calling channel is rendered useless.
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Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by K4RAF on June 27, 2004
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Sorry but computers don't "link" radios for me, RF does. Call me a purist...
If I really wanted wireless computer links, I'll go for a full voice suite over 802.11, VoIP over WiFi.
NetMeeting or any other VoIP suite is superior to straight EchoLink because you can talk to anyone on the computer, not just hams. The fact you need to ID, on a computer, to listen is stupid & limits the potential PR factor. It should have inhibitted TX without a call, not totally function inhibit.
Then SWL's could use it too but unltimately it is ALL about licenses, ID'ing & CONTROL !!!
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RE: Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 27, 2004
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Quote : The fact you need to ID, on a computer, to listen is stupid & limits the potential PR factor. It should have inhibitted TX without a call, not totally function inhibit.
The fact is that if you dont ID over voip while on a RF link could cost you your license. If you transmit . Its up to you :)
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RE: Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by K4RAF on June 28, 2004
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"The fact is that if you dont ID over voip while on a RF link could cost you your license, if you transmit."
You totally miss my point, of a "key" to enable transmit over any link, after you register a valid license. It has stunted acceptance by limiting its' usefulness, IMHO. NetMeeting or even Skype offer more uninhibited utility...
"Its up to you :)"
On EchoPink, little is up to you. ID'ing to listen on a computer is just plain stupid & not everyone wants a QSO. I also hear at least a couple a say not ID & no one gets a license pull. Preoccupation with ID'ing, as I indicated...
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RE: Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 28, 2004
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Sorry I misread your post . I agree if you connect with a computer and you just want to listen in on the Repeater it should be OK. With my repeater here, at your option to talk or listen.
I even have this stated this in the Edit menu when you connect up via computer. I guess the main thing here is most hams just want to listen to a repeater for traffic. But in all honesty ,if everyone listens there is no traffic.
But feel free to use my repeater here and listen as long as you wish .
Also sorry for the confusion, If you transmit on the repeater please ID if you don't transmit there is no harm done in listening .Some have their repeaters setup to ID you on connection others don't. All there really trying to do is get hams to to realize that there is a need to insinuate a conversation . After we are Hams who enjoy communications
73 , KF4VGX node 3702 Echolink
On EchoLink, little is up to you. ID'ing to listen on a computer is just plain stupid & not everyone wants a QSO. I also hear at least a couple a say not ID & no one gets a license pull. Preoccupation with ID'ing, as I indicated...
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RE: Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by KF4VGX on June 28, 2004
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After (ALL )we are Hams who enjoy communications .
EHAM Corrections AHHH ! :)
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RE: Repeaters Should Not Be Echo Linked
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by AG5T on June 29, 2004
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One thing I know for sure - in Houston, Texas the lack of wide-range repeater coverage is a definite factor in the large drops in memberships of local ham radio clubs. New hams usually get an HT as their first piece of equipment - if they can't hit the repeaters they lose interest quickly. If the local radio club doesn't have a repeater that can be hit from many miles with a milliwatt, they don't attrach many new members. Linking repeaters in southeast Texas might be a way to keep these new hams involved. There are no mountains in se Texas and all the good repeater sites are now only available if you pass area business owners thousands of dollars - for tower sites, building tops, anything. Amateur radio has lost out to big business owners in Houston. So I am all for repeating linking.
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Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by N8EKT on July 12, 2004
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IF IT WORKS FOR YOU GREAT!
HOWEVER AS A UHF REPEATER OWNER FOR SOME 17 YEARS, I JUST WISH THE D.C. AREA WOULD GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND STOP OPERATING UPSIDE DOWN SPLITS.
WHEN THE BAND OPENS UP, ALL YOU HERE IN THE REST OF THE REGION IS THE D.C. REPEATERS COMING INTO THEIR INPUTS.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by KB9MWR on January 28, 2005
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I understand what your saying with limited coverage in urban areas yet many repeaters.
However as pointed out what your proposing could end up where two guys on HTs could tie up all 8 repeaters simultaneously over a 200 square mile area?
Thats not the answer. I'd suggest voted receive sites, or just better repeater planning in general. In an urban area, a good site becomes essential.
Setting up a remote receiver isn't that difficult, and will increase the usefullness of a handheld.
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RE: Why Repeaters Should Be Locally Linked
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by K8MHZ on February 18, 2005
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I also think there should be at least one linked repeater in every locality.
1) It increases the usefulness of small radios.
2) It is impressive to non hams to see a QSO to the other side of the planet with an HT.
3) For me, it gives me a taste of what it will be like to work HF. Our club has open shack nites and we get to work HF on their station. There is a big difference between calling CQ on HF and working VOIP. I think that once a person gets a taste of making friends planet wide, they will want to do it using a rig and a wire.
4) There are more and more instances where lifelong hams have had to leave their big HF stations and move into smaller domiciles where having a station is not permitted. Being able to stay in touch with friends of many decades with an HT near an Internet linked repeater would not be near the same as having your HF gear, but would be much better than having nothing.
The cat is out of the bag. Internet linking is now a part of ham radio, like it or not. The kids (I am teaching a tech class with 6 kids in it) think that EchoLink is cool! They also got a big charge out of working the Falkland Islands at open shack nite. I don't think that exposing them to Voip will stifle their desire to work DX with a rig and a wire that they strung around the yard.
73 de K8MHZ
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