RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
from
Doug Reed
on
July 1, 2004
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On Saturday May 22 Ramsey County Emergency Services RACES volunteers provided Amateur Television support at the countywide Terrorism/HazMat drill in Shoreview, a suburb of Ramsey County, north of St. Paul, MN. More than 200 individuals representing over a dozen agencies and groups participated in the drill.
The scenario was that terrorists had damaged a railroad switch causing the derailment of a train with tank cars containing hazardous chemicals and shot the first responders to arrive on scene. RACES volunteers were tasked to provide a video feed to the Incident Command van from a vantage point near the Fire Command area of the scene.
This was our best volunteer turn-out in over a year and we had 15 RACES volunteers plus 3 RCEMHS paid staff active for this drill. We met our goals and had one video feed to the IC van within 18 minutes of our arrival. At the end of 30 minutes we had two RF remote cameras and one hard-wired video camera operating on-scene, with two video feeds to the IC van and two going to our radio van. The Incident Commander was able to ask for video from specific cameras and to direct the camera crews for close-up views as needed.
Lessons learned and equipment suggestions:
The main lesson learned was that both ends of the RF path must be crystal controlled or phase-locked on a specific channel. Tunable receivers are not reliable. They tend to drift and AFC is not reliable if the transmitter is moving and the signal fades. Choose equipment that has NO EXTERNAL ADJUSTMENTS and then make sure that the cameras, transmitters, and receivers are all adjusted to nominal 1 volt peak-to-peak commercial video specs.
The second lesson is that old home consumer type VCR cameras are not a good choice for this application because they may have vidicon TUBES instead of CCD video pickups, their batteries tend to go dead at bad times and they often shut off if you don't have a tape running in them. And be sure to test the cameras in a high RF environment, such as a HT within inches or a 50-watt mobile within a few feet of the camera. Reject any camera that shows severe interference effects in the picture or shuts off!!!
And finally, make sure the video has proper brightness and color balance so the picture is correct. You might go to the trouble of setting up all the cameras outside on a bright sunny day and using a "white board" to adjust the cameras for proper white balance and correct video levels. The objective is to have the same high quality of video from all the cameras.
My personal preference for ATV equipment is something that is late model, phase locked at both ends, and uses FM modulation, not AM modulation. An FM ATV system requires more signal strength to display a lousy "P1" grade picture than an AM ATV system will, but it will approach a perfect "P5" picture much faster than AM ATV and it tends to be less susceptible to interference. Spend a few bucks more to get something that is near commercial quality, it will save you effort and reduce frustration in the long run.
If you have the money to afford remote control pan-tilt-zoom color security cameras, buy them! If you can't remote control the camera, then you will need to use a camera with a built-in view finder else add an external video display so the camera operator can make adjustments. You WILL need a hood on the view finder or video display else you will not be able to see it under bright sunny conditions.
If you want to run multiple cameras, you will probably need to use multiple bands. FM ATV requires about 20 MHz per channel. AM (double sideband) ATV typically requires 12 MHz per channel. To minimize interference it is standard practice to leave one empty 6 MHz AM ATV channel between active channels. And remember there are other radio users around and in the UHF ham bands. Cell phones and paging are on either side of the 902 MHz ham band and it is shared with Part 15 devices. The 2.4 GHz ham band is shared with Part 15 devices such as wireless cameras and Wi-Fi networks. The same with the 5.6 GHz ham band. The 1.2 GHz and 3.4 GHz ham bands are shared with Government and is otherwise pretty quiet, but there is less available equipment.... Consider buying or building band pass filters for your ATV receivers.
ATV transmitters need to be identified just like any other transmitter. I prefer using a CW or voice ID'er on the audio channel and disconnect any microphones. The remote mike usually just picks up rude comments from the camera operators that we really don't want to transmit....
The lessons learned and equipment suggestions are my opinions. Your mileage may vary. There is no required standard method of doing ATV so feel free to make your own mistakes, just as we do.... 73,
Doug Reed, N0NAS.
Ramsey County Emergency Services.
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by N3HKN on July 1, 2004
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Are there slow scan protocols suitable for use on VHF frequencies that will offer a picture within say 5 to 10 seconds? The idea is to use a simpler RF environment that has its own complexities while providing rapid snapshots of the targeted field of view. Since 9600bps modems were developed for the now fading packet world are they suitable for a slow/rapid scan setup?
Dick N3HKN
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 2, 2004
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Good stuff!
Your comments on "Consumer Grade" camcorders are right on! I have abandoned them in favor of commercial "security" type cameras for my application also.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KC5SAS on July 2, 2004
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Great article. I would love to see a webpage or magazine article on this operation. I've played with low power 432MHz ATV with mixed results. I'd love to see more article of this type along with somewhere we could see photos or for more details.
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by WB9MMM on July 2, 2004
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Great article. You may write an article for Amateur Televison Quarterly any time! We are working with hospitals locally here in Rockford, Illinois, to use their towers for putting up our local ATV repeater. They are very interested because of the emergency ATV possibilities.
Gene Harlan - WB9MMM
atvq@hampubs.com
Amateur Television Quarterly
www.hampubs.com
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 3, 2004
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“The scenario was that terrorists had damaged a railroad switch causing the derailment of a train with tank cars containing hazardous chemicals and shot the first responders to arrive on scene.”
------
First of all – GIVE ME A BREAK…
1. So you mean that your RACES guys have the proper HAZMAT suits issued to them in order to go into a contaminated area and set up camera?
2. You also realize that once the cameras and equipment are exposed to any type of HAZMAT chemicals that they must be disposed of properly?
3. Your scenario sent personnel into a potential harmful area knowing full well that moments prior first responders (police and fire) had been killed by terrorists yet you risk the lives of your men and others that would have to rescue you in order to set up a live feed?
4. Why wouldn’t they be calling on the local TV crews have much more sophisticated television equipment that can see from miles away most with SATCOM capabilities (digital)
It just continues to boggle the mind that instead of this being a hobby that we have to continue to create wild scenarios that makes us look like we are vital – take a look at what happened in San Antonio with the train derailment just a couple of days ago – the chlorine cloud shifted and killed a police officer, training conductor and 2 elderly women – yet you use that as a scenario…
Slow Scan TV is fun – just don’t start confusing what you do as a hobby for something that should be attempted in real life – leave that to the professionals – once again – see what San Antonio did – they had the news crews set up miles away – using long range cameras that shot a microwave feed back to the Emergency Responses area – they didn’t ask ham radio amateurs without the proper hazmat equipment or training to risk their lives to set up a slow scan feed
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by K1CJS on July 3, 2004
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Although I am an ARES/RACES Emergency Coordinator and have considered emergency scenarios, I am forced to agree with the comment that we shouldn't even be considering anything that involves hazardous materials unless we have the proper training beforehand.
We, as RACES and ARES volunteers should be drilling and training for emergency situations that do not require specialist training and procedures. We have no place in a situation like your scenario, first because of the hazmat situation, and second, because of the 'terrorist' threat there.
Even though I have had basic training in hazmat emergencies as a EMA volunteer, I would keep my people away from the immediate site altogether. In situations like this, we belong on perimeter assistance duty--and nowhere near the actual emergency site itself.
Its been said before and it'll be repeated until we fully understand it--
We are not the professionals, and we should leave the situations requiring professionals to their care.
When we can remember that and stick by it, we will have found the place we can be the most effective.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 3, 2004
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The very first paragraph of this article reads as follows:
“On Saturday May 22 Ramsey County Emergency Services RACES volunteers provided Amateur Television support at the countywide Terrorism/HazMat drill in Shoreview, a suburb of Ramsey County, north of St. Paul, MN. More than 200 individuals representing over a dozen agencies and groups participated in the drill. “
When I read this, it made perfect sense to me. I didn’t jump to any wild conclusions about the competency of the participants. Why are there always people who will fly to their keyboards to launch a critical flame, when they clearly have no real knowledge of the actual event?
I, for one, was prepared to accept as a given that in amongst the “dozen agencies and groups” there would be qualified HAZMAT people.
One poster not only felt the need to give an impromptu lecture on HAZMAT related issues, but also felt it necessary to criticize the believability of the scenario! …….Right!…as we have seen over the past decade, terrorists always do the logical, predictable things that make sense to our western minds! (Note sarcasm.)
I’ll stick to my original opinion: It was a good article.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 3, 2004
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Kent --
I am not saying that it was a bad article or that the technology that they provided was not only fun but exciting, and I am sure it was – and this is GOOD stuff they are doing with this hobby …
What has started to get onto my nerves (I thought it was going to be the thousands of postings about code vs no code but it wasn't) is the fact that ham radio enthusiasts are simply forgetting that this is a hobby and not a needed civil program. There is not one single fire, police, EMS, HAZMAT provider that should be relying on the hobby communications of volunteers to provide comms in times of crisis..
A few months ago we were invited to see a college club in Texas that had developed a means to take a simple Dlink wireless router and an antenna that they developed that could send a wireless signal more then 23 miles with an amplifier on a narrow beam. There were two ham radio guys also that was assisting them. They accomplished what they wanted to show us fine and we made notes and they stated that they would provide us with a report. We were pretty excited and decided to fund the program.
When we got the report we almost died laughing – instead of simply giving us the facts and concepts they had created a scenario to go along with the use of the equipment. The basic scenario went that the main telephone and cable switch of a small town outside of San Antonio was taken out by terrorist and the local ham radio club came to the rescue not only by using their 2/440 repeaters to pass vital govt traffic but also set up a wireless internet network to the field agents 25 miles away using this system.
Hell all we were interesting in was the capability to allow anchored ships in the bay to send and receive wireless internet instead of costly cell lines and SATCOM.
I called back to the Univ and asked them to take the terrorist crap out and they said that this had been the idea of the local ham radio club to demonstrate the importance that ham radio and this equipment could play in times of emergency.
Yes – I agree that ham radio once played a vital role – of course that role ended in the early 70’s with the onset of superior land and cell comms… every police officer that we work with has a cell phone – why –in case the VHF in his car goes down – I don’t see many with 2 meter or 10 meter radios for such purposes….
It’s a hobby – where we loose our credibility is when we tell people that we are vital to the safeguard of the country!! … the cell phone is vital – the VHF/UHF govt comms are vital – the land line is vital ---- ham radios aren’t – any longer…. sorry
It’s a hobby – have fun !!!
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 3, 2004
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To further amplify the point about the ARS having lost relevance in emergencies: Verizon has developed COLTs, to go with their COWs.
While some amateurs were pissing and moaning about how important CW was, industry was busy making it even more obsolete.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 3, 2004
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GHOSTRIDERHF
Well………..I guess what you say may be true in certain circles. I certainly can’t testify to the overall usefulness of Ham Radio…… I simply know about the part of it that intrudes into my world.
I’m an “Appliance Operator”. I went for my license because I needed the VHF/UHF amateur bands for what I was doing. I have never had any interest in “upgrading” in order to get “HF Privileges”.
I work for the local college’s Meteorology Department. Our curriculum is very heavily into field work (Storm Chasing, if you will). Getting an Amateur Radio License is mandatory in that field. All of the National Weather Service offices monitor posted amateur frequencies, all of the spotter nets across the country use published amateur frequencies, and all of the OEM offices we deal with monitor specific amateur frequencies during severe weather events. You simply can’t make Severe Weather your “stock and trade” without holding an amateur license.
So……from my point of view, I witness Amateur Radio providing a critical communications link all the time. I can’t see it as quite as big a joke as you do.
You mentioned Cell Phones in your response. PLEASE!!!!……….outside of major urban areas, cell phone coverage in this country is worse than a joke,……it’s an insult! Add to that the fact that when you have a real Severe Weather outbreak, like the one in NW Missouri in 2003, (I was there) the cell phone net goes to pieces so fast that people are injured by the shrapnel!........... Please don’t talk to me about cell phones………it’s a sore subject.
Anyway……..I’ll leave the bickering and ridicule to all the “Real Hams”. I, and the other “Appliance Operators” I work with will continue to use the VHF/UHF Amateur Bands for something other than ragchewing.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by OMNIPRESSIVE on July 4, 2004
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"There is not one single fire, police, EMS, HAZMAT provider that should be relying on the hobby communications of volunteers to provide comms in times of crisis.. "
Agreed. I don't know why we need to make ourselves more important than we really are. It makes the general public laugh at us.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 4, 2004
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The comment that amateur radio operators provide a "critical" communications function to meterology is typical of the over-inflation of importance that amateurs assign themselves.
There is a huge complex system that provides meterology in the United States. It includes satelite networks, NASA, NOAA, NCAR, radar telemetry, weather reporting stations, NWS, FAA, the NHC, EMWIN, a lot of other federal and state agencies, *and* volunteer storm *spotters*, *some* of whom use ARS to report spots.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 4, 2004
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Hey Marty!
I have a great idea!........Why don't you stick to commenting on subjects that you're actually familiar with?
I was talking about real-time communication, in the field, with other personel involved in observing the same event (or group of events). Under those conditions, there is absolutely no substitute for the Amateur Radio Bands. (And none of the impressive acronyms you found on the internet are even relevant.)
Since I recall that you have a passion for getting into endless (and pointless) debates on these forums, please be advised that I will not respond further to your posts on this subject.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 4, 2004
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Just a few personal observations from an “Appliance Operator”………….
I think it’s really ironic that we see posts from Hams, putting forth the opinion that the ARS is no longer relevant as a serious emergency resource.
And whose fault would that be? Maybe if you worried a little less about who can do 20 wpm, and put forth a little effort to keep pace with current technology and procedures, you wouldn’t have to write posts calling yourselves irrelevant! If you live in the past, you get left in the past!
As for those of you who posted the critical posts on this article, maybe it’s time for you “Real Hams” to change tactics. Maybe you should stop using perceived obsolescence as an excuse for not contributing, and start looking for ways to once again become a relevant resource for your community!
It’s true that satellite based technology has revolutionized emergency/military communications……and it’s great when everyone involved has the appropriate equipment and training. The trouble is, that isn’t always the case. It sometimes takes a while for “Uncle Sugar” to get his resources where they belong, so that they can start impressing us with their expertise. Just remember, all of the fancy electronics didn’t stop 911 from happening, and for a while there, the people running our government were tuned into CNN, just like everyone else, trying to figure out what was happening.
There are plenty of places where the ARS could be of service, it’s just very unlikely that an 80 Meter rig and a straight key will be the appropriate tools.
And no,…….it’s not “just a hobby”: Even an “Appliance Operator” knows that!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by K0EWS on July 4, 2004
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Funny, the last time I was on a trip home to my folks in Iowa, the NWS office in Des Moines had a weather net going on the linked repeater system along I-35. They had a couple of meteorologists in that office, who also were licensed hams, and could turn the link on and off to different areas at will. The meteorologist could also send spotters to places that their radar had indicated something. I found the entire thing fascinating and entertaining. Last time I looked, I would call these hams' service to the NWS valuable.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 4, 2004
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Kent.
We certainly have seemed to get off track.
My original post had nothing to do with the usefulness of ham radio amateurs to the NWS. The original post had to do with the ludicrous use of a scenario – and God forbid in real life – of training amateur ham radio operators for going into a HAZMAT environment with no proper equipment and training using a moronic scenario of “There we were, ham radio operators, surrounded by a cloud of toxic deadly gas; our dead comrades fallen by terrorist gunfire, yet I – the mighty amateur HAM OPERATOR, untrained in HAZMAT or Special Operations battle a cloud of HAZMAT gas and terrorist bullets to set up my equipment to provide that one cognitive part that will keep the free world free- a video camera”
I don’t know which was scarier – the ham radio operator that actually did the above reported scenario or the 220 guys from a dozen agencies that stood around and watched without saying anything….
That what I am tired of…
And you can feel free to substitute the toxic gas with – a Gail Force 5 hurricane (cause God knows people always seem to gloat that every time a storm goes threw an area that THEY were in, the might Ham Radio Amateur was the only one that could maintain comms with the outside world…
Or when the plane hit the Pentagon someone claimed that they had the only comms in the capitol region…
Or someone a few days ago talked about a guy who had a heart attack at a hamfest but luckily he had his trusty ICOM to call the repeater to call the dispatcher to call the etc etc… (all the while one is asking for God sake why didn’t someone just dial 911 on the cellphone??!!!)
Etc etc…
It just makes us all look stupid…
Yes – I do agree with you on the part that amateurs do play a role in the NWS storm chasers – but lets face it – it’s a volunteer hobby role –
It would be like saying that simply because my son and I like to go to the high school football stadium on the weekend and launch his model rockets that we were somehow vital to NASA and the exploration of space…
You have to keep it all in perspective.
The NWS would not come crashing down if the storm chasers weren’t out there … I do have to agree with the previous posters that we have police, radars, satellites, etc etc that provide real-time observations – yes maybe not as detailed – but and I am not saying the storm chasers are not needed… but lets just make sure that we understand that the role of the NWS would not be diminished one iota if the storm chasers went away …
And lets make perfect sense that you are working for the NWS as weather spotters and this has absolutely NOTHING to do with ham radio – you are adjunct NWS volunteer employees using the 2 meter band for comms ….
Perhaps I am wrong – perhaps not … perhaps somewhere in the middle…
The whole point of my post – and I will say it again – is stop making this hobby into a “There we were saving the world from ourselves” … its original post like this that make us all look stupid to the world…
It’s a hobby – have fun.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KC5SAS on July 4, 2004
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GhostriderHF said- "Slow Scan TV is fun – just don’t start confusing what you do as a hobby for something that should be attempted in real life"
From what I read I never got the impression that Slow Scan was being used. The article talked about ATV which is realtime wireless video. No where did it say that hams were sent into the hot zone where their lives would be at risk.
I find that it is the naysayers who often have an excuse for not promoting the 'service(s)' our 'hobby' can offer. While you sit in your shack playing with your straight key there are some of us out in the field doing what we can to assist those who want our services.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 4, 2004
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Not beating a dead horse -- but go and read a recent post
http://www.eham.net/articles/945
and tell me if this post once again does not seem to make it sould as if if it wasn't for the ham radio amateur that the world would have ceased to exsist!!!
or let me sum it up for you -- "There we were -- the almighty ham -- at an Air Show -- when one of the F14s crashed killing the pilot and crew -- but luckily for the world -- although all the comms in the area were either out, dismantled, distroyed or radios and networks survived -- and we saved the world -- again... "
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 4, 2004
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GHOSTRIDERHF
This discussion isn’t as “off-topic” as you seem to feel. We are still discussing the possibilities for the ARS to provide community service.
I’m really sorry you feel the way you do. The more ridicule that gets dumped on this subject, the less likely it is that anyone will make a serious, positive effort.
I can’t tell you about the whole “Big Picture” of how the ARS can be of community service. I don’t have all the answers. All I did was site one example of positive action that I happened to be familiar with.
There is one thing of which I am absolutely sure: You need to get a clearer understanding of the relationship between the local NWS offices and their volunteer spotter networks. You obviously do not understand the tasks involved, or how the system is implemented. (I try to never comment on subjects that I know little about……….perhaps you might try some of the same restraint.)
Another mistake you make is equating “Volunteer” with “Hobby”. Where ever did you get the idea that those two words are synonyms? Severe Weather Spotter Nets are largely volunteer efforts because the Federal Government provides virtually no funding for this activity. (Hmmm……..yet another example of how well “Uncle Sugar” takes care of us.) Yet without them, the NWS would be deprived of an incredibly important function: The “Ground Truthing” of what they are observing on their Doppler Radar screens. You must have human observers involved, and the government knows this………they simply don’t want to pay for them.
If you want to find out about this, and if you live in the portion of the country where Severe Weather is an issue, (I don’t know where you live…..your personal profile is a bit on the “lite” side!) then you can start with a simple phone call to your local NWS office. Ask them if their spotters are providing a valuable service! Just don’t expect them to find your condescending remarks on the subject to be as funny as you clearly think they are.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 4, 2004
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> Hey Marty!
> I have a great idea!........Why don't you stick to
> commenting on subjects that you're actually familiar
> with?
Oh, I have a passing familiarity with meterology, especially with how met data is gathered and communicated, Kent.
> I was talking about real-time communication, in the
> field, with other personel involved in observing the
> same event (or group of events).
In other words, you were talking about a very tiny part of meterology, even as it applies to storm spotting. But let's see just how accurate your claim is:
> Under those conditions, there is absolutely no
> substitute for the Amateur Radio Bands.
Except, of course, the other communication modes that the NWS recommends using if they're available, and the other radio services routinely used for communication.
Do you really think the guys flying the planes into the storms are using the ARS? Do you really think that all those airline pilots reporting weather to the FAA are using ARS? Do you really think all those weather spotters with fixed stations are using ARS? Do you really think that all those NWS remote meterological stations are signalling back using ARS? How about all those commercial meterological data gathering systems?
> (And none of the impressive acronyms you found on
> the internet are even relevant.)
Let's take a look and see how relevent they are.
NASA -- Among other things, they fly ER2s that do real time data gathering and report results back. Sounds exactly like what you are talking about.
FAA -- They gather real time meterological data from commercial and general aviation pilots, and, oddly enough, communicate it back, in real time, to other pilots, as well as to the NWS.
NWS -- they are the ultimate consumer of, and redistributer of all non-commercial meterological data gathering. If you don't tell them, you haven't spotted anything. Sounds relevant to me.
NHC -- surprised you think they're irrelvant; as they are one of the major consumers (through NWN) of ARS real-time meterological data. Not that they get real time data from just the ARS.
NOAA -- guess who runs the NHC
NCAR -- OK, you got me there. NCAR does research, and isn't directly involved in met data gathering. Well, except, of course, for the HAO, ATD, and HIAPER.
EMWIM -- Well, no, of course the Emergency Manager's Weather Information System has nothing to do with real-time field communication.
> Since I recall that you have a passion for getting
> into endless (and pointless) debates on these
> forums, please be advised that I will not respond
> further to your posts on this subject.
It's really simple, Kent. Amateur radio plays a small useful role in a small part of meterology.
But in the larger picture, it doesn't amount to 'critical.' It doesn't even amount to 'critical' in 'real time communication in the field'.
Unless, of course, you want to discount any fixed stations, NWS remote telemetry, military storm chasing, NASA research aircraft, and commercial meterological data gathering. Then, once you've stripped away all those weather spotters that *don't* use the ARS -- the vast majority of weather spotters, by the way -- and only then, does the ARS appear 'critical' to anyone who's not a ham. Er, no, wait. You also have to forget about all the emergency services people who are communicating real time through their services. Oh, and the REACT folk.
73,
Marty
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 4, 2004
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> IF you live in the portion of the country where
> Severe Weather is an issue, then you can start with
> a simple phone call to your local NWS office. Ask
> them if their spotters are providing a valuable
> service!
Kent, I think I see the problem here. What I objected to was the claim that the ARS was "critical" to storm spotting, and "the only way to communicate." I never asserted there was no value to the NWS from the ARS, and in fact have said that amateur radio operators can provide a small but useful service to the NWS.
Let me answer your question. I grew up in Western Montana, which has severe weather, and an NWS storm spotter program (run out of the Missoula NWS office). I live in the San Francisco Bay area, which has severe weather, and an NWS storm spotter program (run out of the Monterey NWS Office).
*Neither* of these programs require that its spotters be licensed amateurs. In neither case are a majority of the spotters amateurs. The Missoula NWS lists ARS as 6th of its "other" spotters, after saying that "most of our spotters are private citizens."
"useful" is a fine description. "critical" is excessive.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 4, 2004
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"There is one thing of which I am absolutely sure: You need to get a clearer understanding of the relationship between the local NWS offices and their volunteer spotter networks. You obviously do not understand the tasks involved, or how the system is implemented. (I try to never comment on subjects that I know little about……….perhaps you might try some of the same restraint.)"
Thank you, Kent. You have met my RDA for irony.
73,
Marty
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 5, 2004
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KC5SAS –
You state “ From what I read ….No where did it say that hams were sent into the hot zone where their lives would be at risk….. “
Really …because the opening post seems to say that loud and clear…
I quote “The scenario was that terrorists had damaged a railroad switch causing the derailment of a train with tank cars containing hazardous chemicals and shot the first responders to arrive on scene. RACES volunteers were tasked to provide a video feed to the Incident Command van from a vantage point near the Fire Command area of the scene”
SO WHAT AM I MISSING – seems to me that they were tasked to provide a video feed near a vantage point that was damaged by a terrorist group in an area where HAZMAT was released and first responders shot””
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 5, 2004
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KENT --
I'll make you a deal -- there are 100's of NWS offices nationwide ... and virtually each of them has a website so this should not be to difficult..
show me one website that is NWS sponsored/operated that directly supports what you are saying ...
that basically that ARS provides an invaluable service to the NWS...and that without the ARS that the NWS service would suffer or be degraded ..
all I need is one site...
thx
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 5, 2004
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GHOSTRIDERHF,
The best information online about the history of weather spotting in the US is on the Skywarn web site under the title "What is Skywarn"?
url: http://www.skywarn.ampr.org/swintro.htm
Skywarn, itself, describes its volunteers as:
"Spotters include public safety personnel such as as firemen, law enforcement, volunteer citizens with public safety radios or access to a phone, citizen band radio operators and licensed Amateur Radio Operators."
For those interested in more details and more formal reporting, there is a paper at
http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~doswell/spotter_history/spotter_history.html
which mentions the role skywarn plays, and how skywarn fits into the entire meteorological information gathering and disemination process.
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KG6VNX on July 5, 2004
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Wow, you guys slay me. Couldn't help but through in my two cents here.
There were several reasons I got into Amatuer Radio.
I like to build and experiment with things.
I like to challenge my mind and discover new ways to solve problems.
I like to talk to people who share my interests.
Cell phone service where I live sucks in the best of conditions. I live in a fairly highly populated area of central California. No one can tell me that cell phones are a reliable resource for communications.
With all the bickering you all do it was tempting for me to just ignore the posts here and go on to the next pointless bitch session but here goes...
If there is ever a situation (emergency) where I can help the authorities in my area, I will not hesitate. As long as it doesn't put me in harms way. I have a wife and children, my attitude would be different if I were still single.
As HAMs we have the unique ability to provide a service when others cannot. Useful service. Nobody should be jumping out in front of the professionals trying to help, that's called getting in the way. But we are there if they ask us.
We should mostly be there for ourselves and our families. I chose HAM for emergency communications because it is far mor reliable than any cell service I have ever seen. If I am hunting 50 miles from the nearest cell tower I have confidence in my ability to hit somone's repeater somewhere to get the help I need. If a big earthquake happens locally, I know I can use my radio to contact my family to let them know I am OK. These are just the first two things I can think of to make my point. There are many anough that there was another thread I saw here about what people keep around to make sure they are prepared for emergency service.
That seems pretty darn important to me.
Even the wildest and silliest practice scenerio is still practice. And even though any HAM with any sense would stay well away from anything truly life threatening our "hobbie" is still useful and neccessary.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by K1CJS on July 5, 2004
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This posted earlier,
".....Amateur radio plays a small useful role in a small part of meterology.
But in the larger picture, it doesn't amount to 'critical.' It doesn't even amount to 'critical' in 'real time communication in the field'."
It depends on where 'in the field' you may be.
I remember reading somewhere that the NWS offices in many midwestern states rely solely on weather spotters who are ham radio operators to provide useful minute to minute reports on severe weather outbreaks because of the sparsity of other types of communications in those areas.
I don't remember if the reference was in NWS literature, Skywarn literature or in some ham radio literature.
Suffice it to say that different areas of the country have different needs that amateur radio operators fill. In populated metropolitan areas, that need may be strictly as a secondary 'backup' communications medium while in sparcely populated areas amateurs may be asked to provide 'primary', in other words 'the only' means of communication to troubled areas.
As for the ham radio operator, the usual request is to be ready to help if asked to, don't just jump in uninvited and unannounced.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 5, 2004
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"I remember reading somewhere that the NWS offices in many midwestern states rely solely on weather spotters who are ham radio operators to provide useful minute to minute reports on severe weather outbreaks because of the sparsity of other types of communications in those areas."
Alas, this is not true. There is no place in the country where the NWS relies _solely_ on hams as weather spotters. What is true is that there are a few regions in the country where the hams are well organized, and the NWS relies on them as contact points for all non-government spotters. (GHOST: Kent's answer to your request about the NWS is Des Moines...)
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 5, 2004
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"I chose HAM for emergency communications because it is far mor reliable than any cell service I have ever seen."
The relative reliability depends very much on where you are.
"If I am hunting 50 miles from the nearest cell tower I have confidence in my ability to hit somone's repeater somewhere to get the help I need."
Come to the bay area. I'll take you hiking in places where you can't hit any of the repeaters, but can easily hit a cell -- or the other way around. Also places where your only chance of radiotelephony would be to hit a satellite. All within 50 miles of downtown San Francisco.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB9YZL on July 5, 2004
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K1CJS……..your comments are very much to the point. Thank you.
When I stuck my $.02 in, it was not my intension to turn this into a Meteorology discussion. Some relatively harsh words had been posted about the relevance and usefulness of the ARS, and since I was familiar with an application where the ARS does provide a valuable service, it seemed appropriate to me to mention it. I should have known better.
In the best tradition of this forum, I immediately found my comments subject to criticism. I wasn’t particularly surprised; as I have been attacked by anonymous trolls on this forum many time before. It doesn’t bother me anymore.
I am, however, a bit surprised at the role I have been forced into. Here I am, writing posts to defend the usefulness and relevance of the ARS! It’s really odd, because I don’t consider myself to be a “Ham”, and the people making the disparaging remarks ARE Hams!………..Go Figure!
All I know for sure is that the VHF/UHF Amateur Radio bands are an incredibly valuable tool for me and the other people engaged in serious Field Meteorology. We couldn’t do what we do without access to those bands.
Don’t get me wrong…….I’m not going to claim that we “Save The World” on a daily basis;……..far from it. Most of the time, the butts we save are our own. Without good radio communications with the other spotters and chasers on the same storm, our task would be much more dangerous and costly. Believe me, when we get a report of “baseball” size hail falling 5 miles east of our position, we will definitely be heading North, West, or South! (All of our vehicles have windows, and we like to maintain the status quo!)
Some of the comments you’ve read in this thread clearly illustrate that the general public is really clueless about what we do, and that’s understandable. Most people outside of meteorology consider Storm Chasing to be some kind of weird “extreme sport”. That may be true for a few clowns, (we call them “Yahoos”, if you want the actual jargon) but the majority of us out in the field are there to further the Science.
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 6, 2004
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KENT –
I will give you that the NWS benefits from volunteers that happen to operate on 2 meter radios…
BUT - I will not give you that HAM Radio is vital to the NWS…
but i think we have all beat that horse to death so let me move on...
Also – I am not trolling – I simply have had enough of these wanna-be rescue type folks that walk around with a 2m on one hip and a scanner on another and try to play rescue ranger, and when they can’t – then they make up some story about “There I was, saving the world…. ” It just gets tiring to hear that no matter what the incident or accident that every known spectrum of communication goes down during an emergency except the almighty 144-148 which lucky for us some guy on a 2m HT is on to save the universe.
My dad’s a police officer, my brother is in the Coast Guard – and I have seen firsthand how good people with good intentions wind up causing bad things to happen.
As for that argument that we, as HAMS are there to support the civil populace in times of emergency – well they simply don’t need us anymore… they have their cells, their SATCOMS, their govt UHF/VHF and others… yes the cells may go down – but guess what – when that big earthquake hits so will the repeater towers and the power to power the ones that survive.
I have always been told that “You fight the way you train” – and if you don’t train on how to assist the civil populace in times of emergency then you can’t simply turn on your radio one day and be Johnny on the spot…
But once again – the argument – the thing that started this thread – was not that the ARS is bad .. or that Hams do not play a role in assisting the NWS in their valuable service .. the thread started because of an idiotic scenario that tried to make amateurs look almighty by putting HAMS in harms way when THEY are not the trained professionals that should have been there in the first place….
AND THE SCENARIO PUT HAMS IN HARMS WAY TO MAKE IT LOOK AS IF HAMS WERE STILL VITAL
It’s a hobby – have fun.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by AE6IP on July 6, 2004
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"Some of the comments you’ve read in this thread clearly illustrate that the general public is really clueless about what we do, and that’s understandable."
Well, you don't help the situation much with your polarizing language and unwillingness to discuss your position.
"Most people outside of meteorology consider Storm Chasing to be some kind of weird “extreme sport”."
Most people *inside* meteorology consider Storm Chasing (sic) a weird extreme sport, as do most people who chase storms.
"That may be true for a few clowns, (we call them “Yahoos”, if you want the actual jargon) but the majority of us out in the field are there to further the Science."
Cool. Would you be so kind as to share your vita? I'm always interested in what others are up to in "the field."
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by K1CJS on July 6, 2004
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I'll hold on an answer to that, Marty, till I find the particular reference that I saw. I still believe (because I read it somewhere) in some instances the NWS does rely on hams in the field as their sole source of reports on severe weather outbreaks. It makes sense, if amateurs are the ones with the more extensive portable and mobile communication means, that this is so.
As soon as I find the reference, I'll post the source.
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RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB0UPW on July 6, 2004
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I wanted to add some information that was not included in the origional article that would answer several of the quesions that I've seen in the replies.
Our ARES / RACES organization is a part of Ramsey County Emergency Management and Homeland Security. Our members must complete back ground checks by the County Sheriff's Department. We hold in-house training for all our members and provide Hazmat awareness level training.
In fact our members are able to register for any state and federal course that are offered in Emergency Management because of our assocation with the Counties EMHS Department.
During this event, once the scene was not secure all responders were staged away from the scene until the shooter was taken care of by the SERT Team that was called in by the 1st Sheriff and Fire Dept responders on scene. Once the scene was safe the Fire Departments Hazmat team went in to check the area and set up the Hot, Warm and Cold Zones.
The next area to be set up was the Ambulances to treat the injured. They were set up in the warm zone so they could decontaminate any one who had been contaminated before being transported to the hospital.
During any type of hazmat or emergency our members never enter into the HOT ZONE which is the area of immediate danger. Our staff stays in the Cold Zone (Safe Area) and some times into the Warm Zone (Transition area between Warm and Cold Zone)
We work very closly with the Incident Commander using the Incident Management System and have a representative of EMHS in or near the Command Post.
In the event that a camera would be need in the Warm or Hot Zone we would have the camera set up and have Trained Responder with necessary protective equipment take the camere and set it up where they needed to. For this situation we would use a fixed wired camara because if we used a wireless camera we would loose "direct control" of the camera.
For this event our members never left the "Cold Zone" that was set up by the Fire Departments Hazardous Materials Team.
It this had been a real event and several pieces of equipment had to be destroyed because of contamination our expenses would be added to all the other responding agencies as they would try to cover their costs. Granted sometimes costs can't be recovered and that's a cost of doing business.
One item that was not done completed was the evacuation. If there would have been suspicion that the cars were leaking recommended evacuaion would be 1 mile. That would push all the responders except for HAZMAT back beyond the area.
During an event like this I did like the suggestion of asking a new truck with a camera on the mast to allow us "Incident Command" to have a feed along with any of the other videos that may be provided.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 7, 2004
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I realize that my answer is long – and it has nothing to do with ham radio so if you are going to read this to see if I slam that ARS don’t waste your time – I’m not. Slamming anyone.
KB0UPW-
Good morning.
Went to your webpage at
http://www.co.ramsey.mn.us/EmergencyService/volunteers.asp
and others and did some thorough reading before commenting.
My comments are not voiced to thwart any attempt for personnel to volunteer for civic duty – that is an honorable and patriotic privilege – and in this changing time –much needed. And I sincerely applaud and salute you and your team members for taking your time and assets to volunteer.
My only concern is that those appointed civil authorities that you work for may not have actually thought this through – and thus – in times of actual emergency may cause otherwise unprepared personnel, albeit with great intentions – to be placed in harms way – and suffer losses to property or worse, death, or injury.
You state - “Our members must complete back ground checks by the County Sheriff's Department. We hold in-house training for all our members and provide Hazmat awareness level training. “
There are so many different degrees of HAZMAT response and training that I cannot possibly begin to go into them all. Of all the emergencies to react to – the one that we fear the most is HAZMAT. Environmental conditions change rapidly – what was once a green or safe zone is now enveloped in a cloud of toxic gas. Proper training is expensive and continuous. Proper equipment is expensive, heavy and the maintenance is forever on-going. And with that said we see allot of communities that “simulate” training – unfortunately as stated before “You fight the way you train” and if you do not have all your personnel adequately trained to OSHA standards and fully equipment fielded – then your city manager is adding to the problem and putting good volunteers to risk.
You state - “In fact our members are able to register for any state and federal course that are offered in Emergency Management because of our association with the Counties EMHS Department.”
I personally believe that although schoolhouse learning is vital – it on makes up 30% of the triad required – those being learning, testing, doing. A person with a 100% book knowledge on HAZMAT, someone who has taken every bit of courses that is available is going to DIE just as quick as the most ignorant person on HAZMAT if neither one of them have the proper physical protection. And this goes on – the person with the physical HAZMAT protection is going to die just as quick if he has never trained repeatedly in the use of his equipment or his suit.
Our HAZMAT suits have a 30 minute air supply in them. Sounds like allot – its not – that equates to about 5 minutes on scene. First you burn up 5 minutes once the suit is on performing initial buddy checks looking for air gaps, leaks, tears, etc.
Then you have to walk / ride into the environment – takes about 10 minutes – and the suits are heavy – hot – and cumbersome. So that’s 15 minutes of air and effort right there.
Then you are on the scene for about 5 minutes. And God forbid if you have to carry someone out… more like drag them out – especially if the injured party are there doing something that they were not properly trained or equipped to do – like sit up a video camera when the winds or environ changed and they were overcome with gas or liquid propellant.
Walk back out – another 10…
And then go through DECON procedures to get the toxic off of you so you do not expose you or your teammates to whatever you were in. Most of the time you pray that its simply a non-persistent agent that means that equipment can be exposed to it but once you leave the area that a water hose down will disperse the chemicals. (Say like a Chlorine gas incident in San Antonio where suits were required at the train site but once you got out of the area the suits could be hosed cleaned with no ill affects).
You state - “During this event, once the scene was not secure all responders were staged away from the scene until the shooter was taken care of by the SERT Team that was called in by the 1st Sheriff and Fire Dept responders on scene. Once the scene was safe the Fire Departments Hazmat team went in to check the area and set up the Hot, Warm and Cold Zones. “
We have scene from incidents around the world that many terrorist organizations now adapt a two fold attack. The first explosions/incident causes personnel, police, fire, rescue, EMT all to rush to the scene. While everyone is crammed into an area to perform a rescue – the terrorist do a secondary explosion and takes out most of the rescue workers. The problem with your scenario is you do not know how many attackers there were originally – you seemed to just assume one – or if he had set up secondary explosions. Does that greatly add to the time required to rescue – yes – is it virtually impossible to calculate in a mission plan – yes… does that mean that virtually everything in the contaminated/rescue site could be viewed as lethal – yes.
You state - ”The next area to be set up was the Ambulances to treat the injured. They were set up in the warm zone so they could decontaminate any one who had been contaminated before being transported to the hospital.”
Your organization needs to send folks down to US Army Fort Sam Houston – the home of the military medicine corp – when they do their bi-annual HAZMAT exercises and see just how complex it is to decontaminate not only healthy but INJURED personnel – you just don’t wash their hands and put them in the ambulance. A contaminated person can infect the EMS staff, ambulance drivers, and hospital personnel and must be treated so – so yes – the mortality rate goes up exponentially because most hospitals will refuse a contaminated person to be entered into their area unless the person is denominated first – and that takes a long time – and people die during it – so do not pass over your comment so lightly.
You state - ”It this had been a real event and several pieces of equipment had to be destroyed because of contamination our expenses would be added to all the other responding agencies as they would try to cover their costs. Granted sometimes costs can't be recovered and that's a cost of doing business.”
I know first hand that personal property will not be paid for by either state or federal funds – regardless if they were being used in the conduct of the rescue. The govt insurance agency that holds the policy will have the claim referred back to the homeowners policy who owns the camera – who will probably deny it because the equipment was being used by a governmental agency – so thus a CATCH 22—ask your city Attorney for a letter saying that “Any personal equipment lost or damaged in the event of assisting in a local HAZMAT incident will be covered by the city/county”… and he will not do it. They are making promises that they hope they can – but know they cannot keep. So now you’re out the price of a camera. And what about medical costs – say that you are overcome by the HAZMAT – as volunteers will the city pick up the medical costs? Will your medical insurance deny your claims becusase you were harmed during a rescue that you VOLUNTEERED to be at (we have seen many of these csases already).
As for the camera itself - The local govt needs to own the equipment not civilians. What happens if “Bob” can’t get the only camera that you have there to the scene? Why doesn’t the local govt have their own camera where they can provide maintenance, upgrades, updates – etc to it? Videos are vital to this type of operation. Especially ones with IR or Thermal that can help spot bodies before sending in rescue personnel.
I applaud your efforts – I truly do – but the city managers needs to take a hard look if your formal training and equipment goes far enough before they call on you in times of crisis. The cameras that you speak of also needs to remain with the Fire station / HAZMAT responders 24/7. You cannot rely on someone loading their “gear” up and making it to the scene. Eyes-On-Target is the most crucial thing for HAZMAT responders and most do not want to waste valuable time waiting for a volunteer to get to the scene.
And HAZMAT conditions are the worst – the boundaries change according to weather – what was a safe zone 5 minutes earlier is now shrouded in an unknown gas and people are dying – good people with good intentions – but poor leadership – because they all trained in so many simulated controlled environs that when the HAZMAT incident did occur it was just overwhelming.
Once again I applaud your efforts. Just make sure that you and your folks are covered for losses both medical and financial (camera/equipment) and get that in writing. One of the firemen insane Antonio that was helping with the chlorine derailment got a good lung full and thank God he will be OK.. but his medical bills thus far is a little over 150,000 (don’t get me started on the cost of medicine in this county) … but if this had been you – do you have a formal agreement that your city would pick up the whole bill as volunteers?
Make sure that you have the proper equipment for everyone on the team – not just face fireman facemasks. And just remember if you get hurt or injured while performing a rescue then you have now just became part of the problem – not the solution.
Good luck, thank you and God bless you and your volunteers
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB0UPW on July 7, 2004
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These are the types of discussions that need to be brought up and maintained in the Amateur Radio Community along with all volunteer organizations who may be called to assist during events.
During an event you may have the Police, Fire, EMS, Department of Public Health, ARES / RACES, Salvation Army, Red Cross, Volunteers in Public Safety (VIPS), Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT), and many more government and non government agencies participating.
Allow those who are trained and certifed to enter the danger zones and keep all others at a safe distance.
It is very important to maintain the safety of all the responders who may be at or near the scene of an event. They can be very fluid and un-predictable. One event in the past turned a flood into a hazmat event when tanks of propane began floating down the river.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on July 8, 2004
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KB0UPW -
Greetings. My basic concern after all is said and done is that you guys (volunteers) don't get screwed over by the city/county for your help. That if you are going to be in harms way that you get the full training and proper equipment to perform safely.
That if you get injured volunteering that it is covered (which can be but the city has to put you and your fellow volunteers on their insurance policy PRIOR to the incident), and that any equipmnent that may be used during the volunteer performace is also covered for loss, theft or damage.
Two years ago we had the Salvation Army communication folks out training with us along with the Red Cross comms people - it was an air evacuation type exercise involving mass casualties -- and allot of comms going back and forth -- everything went great until about 2 hours after the exercise was over (it was a three day event 24/7) the Salvation Army guys here came to the CP and asked us if we had seen a 12 foot collaspable log antenna. We looked high and low for it but to no avail . The problem was that it was the personal (expensive)property of one of the hams and they had used it for the last three days but after they took it down and put it on the back of the truck -- someone snagged it. The owner was a totally great guy -- but even with letters from us saying how important the antenna had been to the success of the operation, and that it had been under our control at the time of loss, the US Govt would not reimburse him, nor would the Salvation Army.
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by KB0UPW on July 8, 2004
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That is one area that we are very lucky. 90% of the equipment we use is owed by RCEMHS so that if equipment is damaged or destroyed getting it replaced does not rely on the individual.
In the events such a field day where members bring in their own equipment, we do our best to keep that under our control to prevent loss or damage.
In past events members have brought in HF radio equipment and HF beams for Field day, laptop computers to be used during training and events. As we notice equipment we would like to have we try to find donated equipment or purchase the necessary equipment.
Being sponsored, supervised and funded by the County Government (Ramsey County Emergency Management and Homeland Security) it allows us to accept donations as "Ramsey County". This may be an area where our ARES/ RACES organization may differers from others.
For the last few months we have been going though a transition. For the prior 8 years our organization was a Division in the County Sheriff and recently we were placed under the County Manager. We are very fortunate to have a budget that we can use between our Emergency Services Unit and purchase equipment that can be used both for Emergency Services and ARES/ RACES.
I am also very interested in hearing how other ARES / RACES organizations operate in different areas. I can be contacted at our E-mail address rces1@juno.com
Ryan Kelzenberg
RCEMHS Emergency Services
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RE: RCEMHS Participates in Disaster Drill
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by N3ZKP on July 11, 2004
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Ghostrider:
<< The owner was a totally great guy -- but even with letters from us saying how important the antenna had been to the success of the operation, and that it had been under our control at the time of loss, the US Govt would not reimburse him, nor would the Salvation Army. >>
I am not sure who "our" is, but absent a prearranged agreement to replace such items, why would you expect the Feds or anyone else to replace personal property that is stolen? That is what personal insurance is for.
I am NOT speaking officially for The Salvation Army, but as a Salvation Army officer with the responsibility for disaster services delivery covering two states, I can tell you what would happen where I am ... the same thing.
Personal property in a public or non-secured location is the responsibility of the owner. Now if this had happened on Salvation Army-controlled property or facility, that might be another matter and our insurance MIGHT have covered it.
I have several personal-owned radios in my Salvation Army-owned vehicle, but if they are stolen, its MY loss, not The Salvation Army's.
Whoever the "our" is you are referring to, why didn't YOU replace it?
Lon
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