Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
Kenneth E. Harker (WM5R)
on
August 5, 2004
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Will right Of Way issues spell the ultimate demise of Broadband over Power Lines?
A class action lawsuit against telecommunications companies is nearing a settlement.
The suit accuses these companies of laying fiber optic cables on land in the right of way of 36,000 miles of railroad tracks, without permission of the property owners, where the right of way granted to the railroads did not grant the railroads full rights to do just anything they want to with the land. The property owners never agreed to have a commercial data network on their land, and were not compensated for the land's use.
Will this also doom many fledgling BPL providers? Will they discover that the right of way held by the electrical power carriers for their poles and lines will not grant them the right to also run a data network on their poles and lines? Will this extra cost doom the financial viability of BPL? Could class action lawsuits be brought against BPL providers who ignore right of way limitations and restrictions?
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K2WH on August 5, 2004
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BPL is dead already. It was killed by its own silliness and the ineptitude of its providers.
Everyday, another nail is inserted in the BPL coffin as the providers reluctantly agree that BPL does cause interference even though they knew it all along.
K2WH
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by N6AJR on August 5, 2004
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Lets hope it dies.. running an illegal wireless access point through a small amp, and a yagi, and you can get 20 miles line of site, who needs bpl, and you can use a fan dipole too.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA4MJF on August 5, 2004
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Progress Energy threw in the towel today
and in a backhanded way "credited" amateur radio
operators for doing so. We'll take it any way
we can get it. Good Job KN4AQ, N4TAB and W4FAL!
How many are left?
73 de Ronnie
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by W6TH on August 5, 2004
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No BPL?
A dream come true. Never did have a chance, but has frightened many folks, all but Bush and Kerry.
.:
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K9WLF on August 5, 2004
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to N6AJR, if you can get a physical oscillation going on a fan dipole, will it keep you cool in the summer <grin>? It does get awful hot here in S. Florida. Or maybe it is the heat getting to me, or too much RF exposure from my HF mobile station, or the CRS my fiance says I suffer from. What was I talking about, anyway?
Tom, K9WLF, trying to invent an oscillating fan dipole
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by KG4YJR on August 5, 2004
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I’m surprised that a settlement would actually favor the land owners. It will probably be in the form of a $35 credit on their next utility bill. Being that the government actually took the land away from the owners to begin with under “eminent domain” (for the public good a.k.a. democracy) law. What’s a real and continuing crime against the original land owners and current tax payers is that many railway lines are no longer in use, have been abandoned and have had the tracks removed. When the land owners, some who had property divided in two claimed that since the land was no longer being used for the original intention for which it was taken and not even being used at all, well the government wasn’t going to have that. Give something back that they took, no way. So now we have the “Rail To Trails” campaign going on. Turning old abandoned rail lines into hiking and biking trails again, for the benefit of the public using tax payer money for something that makes no money. It’s a big win for the government. They get to keep what they took and they get to take more of our money for development and maintenance of their new “cash cow”.
73
Dave
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WB7CQK on August 5, 2004
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I don't think the railroad analogy quite fits for BPL. The railroads have, over the years, evolved many different kinds of vehicals to travel along the tracks. (And now the government just wants to change the mode to two-wheelers.) Wouldn't the utilities simply argue that they have been passing 60 Hz for a long time ... and now they are just bumping up the frequency a bit?!
The thought makes my head Hertz.
72 de Dave,
WB7CQK
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K0RFD on August 5, 2004
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I think it pretty much depends on your state.
And the railroad analogy, well, it's pretty hard to compare railroads to real people. Railroads against utilities? That's just one group of greedy b**tards against another. Kind of like Doctors vs. Lawyers vs. Insurance companies. Somebody wins, so what?
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by NA4IT on August 5, 2004
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Tom, K9WLF, leash pigeons to each leg of the dipole. Use stator rings from an old motor to serve as a type of turn-table contact point. Place as many cats on the ground as you have pigeons. Alternate pigeon, cat, pigeon, cat. Place a teaspoon of terrible smelling cat food on the back of each pigeon.
There's your "osilating fan dipole".
Of course here in TN we use pine tree verticals on 2M...
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by W7DJM on August 6, 2004
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""""Progress Energy threw in the towel today
and in a backhanded way "credited" amateur radio """"
Do you have a hard link for this? I could find nothing on it.
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA4MJF on August 6, 2004
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Err, try the lead article at
www.arrl.org
It is the one shaded in yellow at the top of the page.
73 de Ronnie
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K4RAF on August 6, 2004
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No, BPL is dead because 802.16x will be easier to deploy. 3.65GHz equipment already exists as an added option, just needs FCC approval.
Read dslreports.com & dailywireless.org for yourselves if you doubt it was dead from the start.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K7VO on August 6, 2004
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BPL is NOT dead and it will continue to be a major threat until the power companies are convinced they can't make a profit off it. I read KN4AQ, Gary Pearce's comments on Progress Energy. They have given up "for now" but are still watching the development of BPL for future consideration.
Duke Power has a trial going in the Charlotte area, another trial is taking place near Williamston, and Wake Electric is considering BPL as well. That's just North Carolina.
We have seen inferior technologies best superior ones in the past for all sorts of reasons, i.e.: marketing. Remember beta tapes? OS/2? A number of electric companies (Progress Energy included), already have a huge investment in fiber. Others will lease their lines to wannabe BPL companies.
I think too many hams look at the technical merits of BPL (does it have any merits?) and a few small victories and are ready to become complacent. Remember, the FCC refused to act or else found everything wonderful when it wasn't for each and every BPL complaint to date. They are still backing BPL to the hilt. I guarantee you vendors like Amperion aren't giving up any time soon. Too much money is at stake for them. If we are complacent we may find ourselves with BPL being rolled out in more places than I care to think about.
We need to continue to support the ARRL in their fight against BPL.
73,
Caity
K7VO
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA4MJF on August 6, 2004
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Caity, what you may have missed in the
Business Section of the N&O this past
Spring when Cavanaugh retired and a new
CEO was elected, was the new CEO's speech
to the stockholders at the annual meeting
He said that his focus was to get PEC
back to its core business of generating
and distributing electricity. I think it
interesting that within a week of Cavanaugh's
depature last month this "internal"
memo surfaces.
There still maybe some of Cavanaugh's
persuasion on PEC's Board and the we
may get back into it was a sop to them.
Had it not been "leaked" there may not
have even been a press release. BTW,
those in the know, knew of this coming
decision a coupla weeks ago. I was
told not to say anything about it until
it became public. So as soon as Gary
put in on the reflectors, I spread the
word like a good OBS (a vanishing breed)
should.
73 de Ronnie
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by AB5XZ on August 6, 2004
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My property has a grant of ROW to cable operator(s) to pass coaxial cable through an easement. It doesn't mention fiber optic cable, which clearly isn't the same thing (there was no fiber optic cable in 1971). I asked my son-in-law, a law student, to keep an eye out for cases that dealt with that question. He found a case, about two years old, that went to the Texas Supreme Court. Essentially, the court ruled that a cable was a cable, and the right of way was more important than the technology.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I doubt that ROW problems will hurt any BPL activity, since the poles and lines are already there.
73TomAB5XZ
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by AD5PE on August 6, 2004
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The railroad right of way has no bearing residential BPL. Power companies have been known to lease rail right of ways (abandoned or not) for transmission lines, but that's the "long haul" lines not the distribution network. Those are fiber or copper (data) lines already.
It's getting from the end of the fiber to the house where BPL is planned, and for that it uses the residential grid. I don't know about where you live, but where I am train tracks are rare in residential neighborhoods. The power lines run down an easement purchased by the power company from the city, when the land was platted (before the first house was built).
And the agreement already includes access to the poles by others - my phone and cable TV is already on the same pole, so the broadband I could get (the competitition) is already there as well (cable and DSL).
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA4MJF on August 6, 2004
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First para should have read:
Cavanaugh annouced his
pending retirement this summer
73 de Ronnie
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WB2WIK on August 6, 2004
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I think BPL hasn't a chance here in California because the hams have convinced the marijuana plantation owners to start burning their plants if they see anybody messing around on the utility poles.
The BPL hardware installers will then get so high they'll forget why they're up there, and climb down looking for snacks and to goof on each other.
We have it figured out. Hopefully, other states can do something similar.
WB2WIK/6
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by N2EY on August 6, 2004
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"A class action lawsuit against telecommunications companies is nearing a settlement. The suit accuses these companies of laying fiber optic cables on land in the right of way of 36,000 miles of railroad tracks, without permission of the property owners, where the right of way granted to the railroads did not grant the railroads full rights to do just anything they want to with the land."
That's a key point.
Most active RR ROW's are fully owned by the railroad companies. Bought and paid for more than 100 years ago.
The settlement mentioned only applies where that was not the case.
"The property owners never agreed to have a commercial data network on their land, and were not compensated for the land's use."
"Will this also doom many fledgling BPL providers?"
I don't think so.
"Will they discover that the right of way held by the electrical power carriers for their poles and lines will not grant them the right to also run a data network on their poles and lines? Will this extra cost doom the financial viability of BPL? Could class action lawsuits be brought against BPL providers who ignore right of way limitations and restrictions?"
Only if they have not already signed away such rights.
Most utility lines have a blanket easement that includes power, telephone, etc.
The same case could be made in locations where cable TV was added to an existing pole line. Have such cases stopped cable TV?
The ultimate fate of BPL will probably hinge on whether the market accepts it, or goes for Wi-Fi and other technologies to the extent that BPL can't be sustainable.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WB6UYG on August 6, 2004
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Right of way is exactly the issue. it is also called the "Last Mile" in telephone jargon. Deregulation of the telephone business was supposed to spur competition and drive prices down. Unfortunately, the new independent providers couldn't get their wires from their central offices to the potential subscribers because of right of way issues. Local governments have the rights to grant access by means of franchise or other instrument to companies to use the publice rights of way. Historicly, that has been telephone and power companies and then cable television. Well, CATV and telco are already in the broadband business and are resistant to allowing competitors to use their facilities, that leaves the power company. An alliance with a power company gives one immediate access to all rights of way in their franchise areas. Some cities are also exploring the option as a way to generate more revenue. This is all about money and power (political not watts).
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by W3DCG on August 6, 2004
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I think probably BPL has not a chance in southern Oregon as well, Steve.
Same reason.
At least so it was, 20 years ago.
But I heard there is still no traffic light in Port Orford. Population still hovers around 1000.
So things don't change much there. Thank God.
(Not about the buds, but about the beauty of the place), thank God for economically thwarted development.
Wehllll... if the crop stops BPL, perhaps thank God for that, too.
DISCLAIMER:
Say "Hell NO!" to cyrstalmethamphetamine.
For the rest, Just Say NO, thank-you.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA2JJH on August 6, 2004
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Agree with the rest. 802A/B is free in many area's.
They call them bubbles in NYC. I can just about go anywhere and get a 2.4 or 5.1 gig link.
For those that do not use laptops, cablemodem is a very good alternative.
The other technologies will severly limit BPL's
spread.
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by K0RFD on August 6, 2004
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BPL won't make it in Colorado either.
People will shoot at the boxes on the poles.
They look even more like elk than roadsigns do!
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by AE6IP on August 6, 2004
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> Right of way is exactly the issue. it is also called
> the "Last Mile" in telephone jargon.
"right of way" applies to any physical line going from one place to another, including telephone, cable, railroad, and road.
"Last Mile" originally meant the telephone line from the telco's "central office" to the subscriber. It is used in telecoms now to refer to the path from the last place in the chain where high bandwidth aggregation occurs to the end user. Some typical examples:
Phone -- still CO to subscriber
Cable -- Head End to subscriber
Satellite -- transponder to subscriber.
(The last, by the way, doesn't, technically, involve right-of-way.)
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by KB2HSH on August 6, 2004
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K0RFD:
Well...as far as Western New York is concerned, I can say this: I have already started stocking up on ammo.
HSH
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RE: Rail ROW Problems?
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by K4RAF on August 7, 2004
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Railroad ROW's will never be impeded from being used as "conduits" for telco & now fiber. They dragged the rail plow years ago & were subject to some of the simplist agreements because they were written a 100 years ago or more.
It can also be argued that it is Federal ROW & nothing can impede Federal transportion. It can also be a matter of "utility ROW" such as allowing cell sites on power line towers. No zoning, no moaning...
Go try & forcibly dig up fiber already sledded in as a result of any class action suit... That's funny!
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RE: Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by W1RFI on August 7, 2004
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> BPL is dead already. It was killed by its own
> silliness and the ineptitude of its providers.
> Everyday, another nail is inserted in the BPL coffin
> as the providers reluctantly agree that BPL does
> cause interference even though they knew it all
> along.
More silliness:
From http://www.newsobserver.com/business/nc/story/1504502p-7666421c.html
> Kilbourne of the United Power Line Council said that
> although the technology is increasingly reliable,
> its commercial application remains a challenge.
> "Technically it's feasible. The harder question is
> how do you build a business case for it," Kilbourne
> said. "We're talking about a whole new business for
> utility companies."
73,
Ed
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by KB9ZYA on August 7, 2004
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I mentioned some time back about citywide wireless internet - now it has happened in Grand Haven , Michigan. Using 60 antennas Ottawa wireless company covers 6 square miles and up to 20 miles into Lake Michigan.The cost is $19.95 mo for home use and $24.95 mo for home + laptop roaming. Adios BPL!! Do a goggle "news search" to read the stories.
I'll bet the BPL executives are trying to unload their stock right now.
Mark
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by WA2JJH on August 12, 2004
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BPL may go the way of the betamax. Limited users, then a slow death.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by KB1GHC on August 12, 2004
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How to solve BPL interferance issues:
http://kb1ghc.home.comcast.net/cutBPL.gif
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by AB5WG on August 12, 2004
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BPL is far from dead. It is just starting. Thousands of these systems will be deployed in this country in the next few months. The big players are just now getting into the action. It is coming to a pole near you soon, probably the one by your antenna.
Read This:
http://uaelp.pennnet.com/articles/article_display.cfm?article_id=209714
Don't call the FCC. They will just tell you it is legal, the interference is not harmful.
Every one of you needs to be writing your congressman today.
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Will ROW Problems Kill BPL?
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by IX4NT on August 12, 2004
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I am amazed at how quickly the posts in here stray from the topic.
In most jurisdictions in the US, easement restrictions apply only to transmission ROWs. There, the transmission company must not 'overburden' the easement where it occupies land it does not own. This often occurs in the context of reconductoring or where static wire is replaced with OPGW. Attention must be paid to any restrictions imposed by virtue of the easement. Obviously, this does not apply where the transmission company owns the property a tower or transmission line occupies or traverses. This is a private property issue.
It's a different story for distribution lines. Typically, these occupy poles that are within the public ROW, not on private property. In many states, utilities are permitted to occupy by statute streets and areas adjacent. BPL is most often implemented on distribution plant, not on transmission plant (although some transmission structures also may carry distribution circuits on lower arms). The vast majority of distribution lines run along public thoroughfares within the public ROW. These are not subject to private easement restrictions.
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