Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
Mike (KA2FIR)
on
August 19, 2004
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Internet phone carriers such as Vonage should set up their systems so U.S. law enforcers can monitor suspicious calls, the Federal Communications Commission (news -- web sites) tentatively ruled on Wednesday.
By a vote of 5-0, the FCC (news -- web sites) said "voice over Internet protocol," or VoIP, providers should be subject to the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, which ensures that law enforcers will be able to keep up with changing communications technologies.
VoIP service is likely to replace much traditional phone service over the coming years, the commission said.
The Justice Department (news -- web sites), FBI (news -- web sites) and Drug Enforcement Administration have argued that they must be able to monitor suspicious calls no matter how they are made.
Technology advocates have worried that the fast-growing service, which promises to slash costs by routing phone calls over the Internet, could be harmed by excessive regulation.
The ruling does not affect other regulatory questions surrounding VoIP service, such as how it should be taxed, FCC Chairman Michael Powell said.
"Our tentative conclusion, while correct, is expressly limited to the requirements of the CALEA statute and does not indicate a willingness on my part to find that VoIP services are telecommunications services," Powell said at a commission meeting.
Commercial "push to talk" services offered by wireless providers like Nextel Communications Inc. should also be subject to CALEA, the FCC ruled.
The ruling on "push to talk" services is final, but the FCC will accept further public comments before making it's ruling on VoIP final.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KE6PKJ on August 19, 2004
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Perhaps I missed something, what does this have to do with ham radio?
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KG6OBC on August 19, 2004
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Echolink, Irlp, both Voip i think thas what hes getting too.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by M0AFJ on August 19, 2004
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Looks like the land of the free is going to be watched by big brother!.
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by X-WB1AUW on August 19, 2004
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They, along with people world wide, have been able to monitor my "push to talk" for decades.
Bob
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by W9PMZ on August 19, 2004
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"Looks like the land of the free is going to be watched by big brother!. "
What else is new? It's been going on for years. To my knowledge it still takes a court order of probable cause to begin the "watching".
Do I worry? No. If they are "watching me" they must be bored to death by now.
At least we don't yet have all the blasted cameras invading everywhere that your island has.....
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KB9YZL on August 19, 2004
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I’ve seen the TV commercials being run by some of the larger phone companies, touting all the wonderful advantages of VoIP.
Are they planning on using the same Internet that I’m using now?…….You know, the one that is so ridiculously vulnerable to Viruses and Worms?……The one that is the obvious target for any group or person who wants to disrupt Western Business?
Does the thought of our critical telephone communications being handled on that Internet make anyone else nervous?
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”
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Privacy? You expect privacy? Good luck!
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by KT8K on August 19, 2004
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<Here's a good soapbox topic>
Cameras? Oh, yes, we have them now! They're at every traffic light in my town now, and watching every stretch of interstate in SE Michigan, just for starters. Can you say "data glut"?
It seems like the mass of information involved, like internet traffic, would be completely impossible to monitor, and even search in the case of audio/video streams (except based on time). Have we reached the point of diminishing returns yet? Just like there's no way to make an effective war from 35,000 feet, there's no way to catch terrorists and other criminals by attempting to filter the huge amounts of data generated daily on the internet. The real solution to crime is for upstanding people everywhere to know their neighbors and take responsibility for what happens around them. Until the public at large is enlisted in the fight against crime (including terrorism) it will not be reduced (barring the impact of normal economic cycles and similar factors).
<soapbox off>
73 de kt8k - Tim
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RE: Privacy? You expect privacy? Good luck!
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by KT8K on August 19, 2004
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and by "it" I meant "crime", not the public.
Though ... stabilizing and even reducing the population might help reduce crime. Overpopulation seems to be at the root of almost all of our problems, for that matter. Check out www.populationconnection.org, and consider donating.
73 de kt8k - Tim
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RE: Privacy? You expect privacy? Good luck!
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by K9PO on August 19, 2004
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So?
CALEA is already a relatity in the US for circuit switched wireline and wireless calls. Thsi proposal is to bring packet switched calls into compliance with the already exisiting regulations.
What this has to do with Ham radio is beyond me as ham radio, with only one minor exception, is already required to be monitered by law enforcement and other agencies.
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by K0BG on August 19, 2004
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I'm amused for several reasons. As the English ham pointed out, we're going to be watched by Bug Brother (make that BIG Brother). He should know, because the English are the most internally spied on nation in the world with the US a close second. In other words, who cares? If it makes the FBI and other law enforcement agencies happy poking into my personal life, sobeit. I hope they enjoy the blandness of it all.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by K4CMD on August 19, 2004
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Hear hear, Alan!
When my wife asks me if I'm at all concerned about the neighbors seeing me parading around the house in my tighty whiteys, I respond, "If they really get their kicks by watching an overweight, pot-bellied 40-year-old vacuuming in his Fruit of the Looms, that's their problem!!!"
Meade K4CMD
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KT3K on August 19, 2004
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It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. While I have nothing to hide, it's a shame we have to be monitored as we drive down the street, or walk to the library, or whatever. If the ridiculous number of laws we have here in the U.S. weren't so abused by the agencies and enforcers it probably wouldn't be such a big problem.
It's no big surprise that when the government gave arpanet to the National science foundation to run, then NSF turned arpanet into something good, (the internet), that the government would eventually take it back, control it, monitor it, and find a way to tax everything that runs through it.
I try to live my life not thinking about big brother or their monitoring of everything from our financials to our movements and conversations to what books we check out of the library, but sometimes it's difficult.
Keep the faith,
73 John
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by W9PMZ on August 19, 2004
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"It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. "
I keep hearing this. What civil liberties have I lost? I have yet to notice these losses.....
How many countries have you been to recently to make a comparison? All I know in my (business) travels (Europe and Asia), when the plane lands back in the US I am so glad to be back home.....
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by NE1RD on August 19, 2004
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There is already a mandate for amateur radio to not use
mechanisms that are intended to obscure the meaning of
message. That said, note that there was some controversy
regarding our digital modes very recently. Do the digital
modes obscure message meaning?
http://www2.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/psk31/
In the end, it was decided that, “This Order amends
Section 97.309(a) of the Commission's Rules...to clarify
that amateur stations may use any digital code that has
its technical characteristics publicly documented. This
action was initiated by a letter from the American Radio
Relay League, Inc. (ARRL)."
Fine. If the digital mode is publicly documented we’re
safe. But, what about new modes that are under development.
What constitutes “publicly documented”? Can new development
be done, without complete protocol descriptions publicly
documented during such development, be within the spirit
of Part 97, and still be in violation of other Federal law?
Other initiatives such as the Digital Millenium Copyright
Act (DMCA) have had a chilling affect on computer science
areas thought far away or even immune from such “thought regulation”.
It is not out of the question that amateur radio,
a service that is chartered to push the technological envelope,
wouldn’t also run into the same sorts of trouble.
Perhaps there is nothing to worry about here. Perhaps there is.
Being aware of a potential problem, and acting early to resolve
it (as the ARRL did with the first big round of digital modes),
is our best defense.
My 2-cents. Refunds upon request.
-- Scott (NE1RD)
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by K4RAF on August 19, 2004
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This has nothing to do with amateur radio. VoIP is telephone encoding. Echolink is a blur of both but has no monitoring prevention afforded it. VoIP needs warrants, amateur radio doesn't, even if it were over a VoIP stream.
Nextel was open to Law Enforcement since day 2. Look up "Conrail Boyz" who where caught robbing trains in NJ by tapping into Nextel.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AC0X on August 19, 2004
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Dear God, this is a stupid article. Since when have ham radio communications been immune from "tapping" and being listened in to? We're not even protected under the privacy provisions of the Comm Act of 1934!
Eham needs to do a little BASIC editorial work and at least throw out articles like this that are COMPLETELY irrelevant to Ham Radio.
Jeez, at least the tree-as-an-antenna article was entertaining.
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by WB2WIK on August 19, 2004
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W9PMZ, I'm with you!
When the plane lands, I'm *very* glad to be on U.S. soil, compared with everywhere else I've been (31 countries, all continents).
I also don't really see the relevance here. Our wireless communications have never been exempt from monitoring, so why would we want more "protection" at this time?
WB2WIK/6
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by KC5SAS on August 19, 2004
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K4CMD wrote-> When my wife asks me if I'm at all concerned about the neighbors seeing me parading around the house in my tighty whiteys, I respond, "If they really get their kicks by watching an overweight, pot-bellied 40-year-old vacuuming in his Fruit of the Looms, that's their problem!!!"
-------
Man, there are people who would subscribe to a website and pay you for seeing that. Don't give it away. :)
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by N8QGC on August 19, 2004
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Well,
I agree, when the plane lands back in the U.S. I'm damn glad to be hear!
This is nothing new though, if you look carefully at the wording of the "Patroit Act" and the proposed amendment to it you see that all the goverment has to do is be able to call you terrorist and no warrent is necessary for them to monitor you any way they'd like to.
Personally I don't care, my life is so damn bland that if they really want to spend time monitoring me then they deserve the boring time they'll have doing it.
Simply put don't do illegal or immoral things and you'll be fine.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AA4PB on August 19, 2004
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Those people who complain about law enforcement being able to monitor communications are also the first to complain when law enforcement is unable to capture a criminal or head off a terrorist attack. You can't have it both ways.
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Another Useless Law
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by KB3FYD on August 19, 2004
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This law is meaningless in the current state of the internet. There are many ways of communicating securely over the internet using not only telephony (PGPfone - http://www.pgpi.org/products/pgpfone/ - military grade encryption), but also secure email (PGP Mail), Steganography (secretly imbedding data in images - http://www.cotse.com/tools/stega.htm), secure, password protested web sites, code-words in messages, anonymous email forwards, irc (ok, not really secure, but still a comm channel) ,etc. I could go on, and on.
If I was a criminal, and wanted secure comms, it would be very, very simple to do. Luckily, actual criminals don't seem to be that smart.
Scott
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New encryption protocol
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by TG9AKH on August 19, 2004
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Another good reason that we should all keep using CW for sending amateur messages, since nobody can decode it anymore, not even hams. I solemnly propose Morse as the new standardized encryption protocol for hams worldwide.
:-)
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by KB9YZL on August 19, 2004
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A previous post wrote: “Simply put, don't do illegal or immoral things and you'll be fine.”
Hmmm…….Sounds to me like all we have to do is add “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” to that, and we have it covered!
Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KG6VQE on August 19, 2004
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I run a computer data center, and we use Email via SMTP and POP3 daily. Anyone can monitor that. I have even told Upper Management that email is not secure, but they ignore it. I have warned off my wife, about telling credit card numbers over our wireless phone, for reasons anyone with a scanner can pick it up. Even though we are doing digital, they can still monitor.....
So What!! What are you saying over Amateur Radio that you are afraid someone might hear. If you think your comm's are secure now, forget it....they are already monitored. Court Ordered? Only if you are going to be admissable (sp?) in court. Otherwise, it is fair game.
It was drilled into me that Amateur radio information is to be sent in the clear, with no codes or ciphers. the only exception, that I know of, is Control Operator information over repeaters, can be encrypterd.
So I ask...what are we afraid of. I have heard the gov't has IR (InfraRed) Vans and Low Level Radar, that that can go through neighborhoods and peek into houses, looking for Drug Labs, and Pot Farms. So we are already "invaded".
As far a VOIP, I think everyone wants to jump onto the Internet Bandwagon. I thought the beauty of the phone system was that, with their own lines and batteries, the phones will work, even when power is off. Wait until your VOIP phone, that needs Power, cuts off next power storm...not to mention Virus, Spyware, etc.
Good Luck to them all!! (bah!!!)
73's
Eric
KG6VQE
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RE: New encryption protocol
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by KG6VQE on August 19, 2004
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I propose that if CW was the new encryption scheme, everyone would be learning it...even non-hams (Ha-Ha)
That is a great solution to the no-code crowd!!
73's
Eric
(Let's at least have some fun with it...lighten up everone)
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RE: New encryption protocol
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by AA4PB on August 19, 2004
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Court Ordered? Only if you are going to be admissable (sp?) in court. Otherwise, it is fair game.
------------------------------------------
That's not exactly so. It is still against the law and even law enforcement officers can be prosecuted for illegal monitoring. Of course you can probably get away with it if you don't tell anyone or try to use it for evidence.
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RE: New encryption protocol
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by AE1X on August 19, 2004
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The content of most radio transmission are covered as well. We are permitted to monitor, but we are prohibited from making use of what we hear.
Ken
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by OBSERVER11 on August 19, 2004
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having been in , on, and around telco central offices, I think that everyone should be wary not to say ANYTHING on the telephone that you are unwilling to defend in court.
Every frame guy knows which pairs are hot and the times to listen, and if they forget, frame and pair numbers are written down, usually on the back of the big calendar over the managers desk.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KC9FQM on August 19, 2004
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It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. While I have nothing to hide, it's a shame we have to be monitored as we drive down the street, or walk to the library, or whatever. If the ridiculous number of laws we have here in the U.S. weren't so abused by the agencies and enforcers it probably wouldn't be such a big problem.
++++
Just which countries have we made free?
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KD5DFM on August 19, 2004
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all you have to do is use morse code , even half the hams wont understand what your sending ;-)how in the world would non hams , btw the goverment stop useing morse code so ham it up ;-) hee hee
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KY1V on August 19, 2004
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KC9FQM wrote...
"It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. While I have nothing to hide, it's a shame we have to be monitored as we drive down the street, or walk to the library, or whatever."
You are correct, it is sad that we have to be monitored, but considering the crime rate these days, it is probably for the better. People will kill you for a couple of dollars!
I used to think freedom was the most important thing in the world and what I do was no one elses business, but having four children changes a man.
I say monitor everything and watch everyone outside of their homes. With all the hair brained lunatics running around these days kidnapping children, raping women and breaking into private homes and businesses alike, I for one welcome the new big brother.
I believe areas that are being monitored, such as London and Baltimore have not only reduced crime in the "watched areas", but they have caught most of those that are bold enough to try something stupid.
I have moved from the "I want my privacy crowd" to the "I have nothing to hide crowd"!
Soon they will figure out how to look into a person’s future and determine if they are going to commit a crime before they do it...can you say MINORITY REPORT?
Great movie!
David ~ KY1V
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by K1CJS on August 19, 2004
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Gee, and I thought this site is E-ham, not E-internet!
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by K1CJS on August 19, 2004
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Gee, and I thought this site is E-ham, not E-internet!
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KE2IV on August 19, 2004
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Huh?
You penned this privacy thing on a website?
Why?
How can anyone expect any privacy on a website?
Ever heard of data mining?
Even the governing police forces located in the northern hemisphere of the longitudes west of about 50 degrees or so can do that!
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by N6AJR on August 20, 2004
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so how do you tap some of these modes, can you spell scanner, which can pick up most of these, and I remember as a kid listen to the mobile car phone net on the far end of the uhf band on TV , and most recievers will read lots of stuff, like a vx5r so where was the security to start with
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by VA3SWS on August 20, 2004
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"Those who desire to trade freedom for security have and deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin said that almost 250 years ago and it still applies today, maybe even more so.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AB8TM on August 20, 2004
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Posted by AC0X:
"Dear God, this is a stupid article. Since when have ham radio communications been immune from "tapping" and being listened in to? We're not even protected under the privacy provisions of the Comm Act of 1934!
Eham needs to do a little BASIC editorial work and at least throw out articles like this that are COMPLETELY irrelevant to Ham Radio.
Jeez, at least the tree-as-an-antenna article was entertaining."
I agree with the above statement.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 20, 2004
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> "Those who desire to trade freedom for security have
> and deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin said that
> almost 250 years ago and it still applies today,
> maybe even more so.
The actually quote: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"
The words "essential" and "temporary" are rather important to the meaning of the quote.
Franklin didn't write it, either. Rather, he published the book in which it appears. The author is believed to be Richard Jackson.
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by AE6IP on August 20, 2004
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> I say monitor everything and watch everyone outside
> of their homes.
Most crimes of violence are committed in the home.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K4CMD on August 20, 2004
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Benjamin Franklin also said, "Every man should believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink."
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 20, 2004
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> Benjamin Franklin also said, "Every man should
> believe in something. I believe I'll have another
> drink."
w.c. does look a bit like ben, doesn't he?
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by HAMDUDE on August 20, 2004
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Just what we need...more "Big Brother" intrusion in our lives. Next, clowns like this guy will advocate having cameras in peoples homes to monitor them going to the bathroom to do their buisness.
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by G0GQK on August 20, 2004
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Are you not aware that GCHQ in Cheltenham UK monitors all phone and e mail transmissions in and out of the UK and many other "sensetive" places in the world ?
The information gained, if relevant, is passed to security services in the US. They have been doing this for many years now. And as a previous correspondent has mentioned, the people in the UK are probably the most watched people on earth and there are CCTV cameras in almost every street in every city, town and even village, in shops, rail and bus stations, libraries, pubs, gas stations,, you name it.
The reason for this is that the British of a certain age group are prone to criminal activity. We have cameras at roadside positions on most important road routes throughout Britain eg. www. traffic-wales/cameras/ index.php3. We don't like it but the authorities like to keep their eye on us, We've had Big Brother for years. It was supposed to prevent crime, we now have millions more people now breaking the laws every day !
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K0RFD on August 20, 2004
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G0GQK wrote:
>Are you not aware that GCHQ in Cheltenham UK monitors
>all phone and e mail transmissions in and out of the
>UK and many other "sensetive" places in the world ?
And in the US, "No Such Agency" has done it for years also.
I think the issue here is that the calls that the government insists on being able to monitor are not calls in and out of the country, but calls *within* the country. The US government has not kept up with advances in technology, and therefore wants to legislate technology back into the stone age, or at least the '90s. While there are certain aspects of the '90s that were pretty good, among them peace and prosperity, I don't think we need a legislative edict to go back to '90s technology for any reason, least of all weekly Ashcroft press conferences.
That all having been said, I'm still not sure what this thread has to do with amateur radio.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KI4GBR on August 21, 2004
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No, this has nothing to do with ham radio. But on a different note...DO NOT GET THIS SERVICE!!!! VoIP is trash! I get calls in our 911 center (in North Carolina) from people in Nevada, New York, California, Utah, even Washington DC that are using VoIP!!! There is no promise that you will get the 911 center in your community when you use this service. One of my employees bought VoIP phone service and place a 911 test cal to make sure it worked and wound up getting Newark 911 in New Jersey! Yeah, it works if you are calling you cousin Marcelle Ledbetter in Yazoo Mississippi, but not if you call 911! What if your family member is dying or your house is on fire? Do YOU want to take the chance of your 911 call going around the world before its answered? Not me. Oh well, thats just my opinion...I could be wrong.
73,
Chris - KI4GBR
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KC8VWM on August 21, 2004
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"It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. "
I keep hearing this. What civil liberties have I lost? I have yet to notice these losses.....
Hey Carl,
Haven't you noticed? Perhaps you haven't been looking at it the right way yet. Here's an example:
Have you been shopping at Warcart lately?
What really annoys me is how they force everyone to pass by a "Checkpoint Charlie" station as you exit the store. Why not just ask me for my "passport papers" instead of my cash register reciept?
Perhaps some might think that my example may be a little extreme? Then try and think about what possible purpose or reason this action could serve other than to "restict" me from moving about freely?
After all, I just paid the cashier 20 feet away from the exit door already. I am quite confident that the cashier has ensured my reciept matches the articles in my cart already. !?
My interpretation of this action would have to conclude that they must be accusing everyone (by default)of not paying for thier merchandise until they have proven otherwise by presenting thier "papers" at the door.
Don't you get the "feeling" that you are not "allowed" to pass until you have presented the appropriate papers at the exit door.
Perhaps it is actions like these that are slowly degrading and further resticting our freedoms?
You don't call this "subtle" action a loss of your civil liberties? Then what else would you call it?
Actions carried out in this fasion appear so very innocent at first, and then suddenly it grows until we all become compliant like sheep. We hardly give it any second thought.
Choose and guard your civil liberties very carefully.
Thanks for listening.
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by NL7W on August 21, 2004
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All:
I, for one, support the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) and its court ordered monitoring of suspected "bad guys" across our nation. The U.S. Departments' of Justice and Homeland Security, as well as the agencies under them, have my full support. Reasonable and law abiding Americans should learn about and support the fine efforts of our law enforcement community in this regard.
As of now, most wireless carriers across the nation have installed government mandated CALEA add-on "switches" to the larger mobile telephone switching offices (MTSO's) around the country. These applicable MTSO's act as a hub for selected parts of each carriers' network, and forward a selected wireless suspect's voice data via private line circuits to law enforcement agencies for recording and analysis.
VoIP phone providers should also comply with this mandate. As of now, there is a hole that lawbreakers can use - VoIP. I dread the idea of "bad guys" or terrorists thwarting law enforcement agencies because certain VoIP phone providers will not provide this capability to federal, state and local law enforcement agencies - because they are not required by law to do so. The DOJ and the FBI stated it well in joint comments by the U.S. Dept of Justice to the Commission's Voice over IP Forum, dated December 1st, 2003, "...that call content and caller identification could evade lawful electronic surveillance, and that VoIP jeopardizes the ability of federal, state and local governments to protect public safety and national security against domestic and foreign threats. Public safety is not negotiable."
Let's get the terrorists and drug dealers before they harm us. 73.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 21, 2004
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by KT8K on August 19, 2004
"
and by "it" I meant "crime", not the public.
Though ... stabilizing and even reducing the population might help reduce crime. Overpopulation seems to be at the root of almost all of our problems, for that matter. ..."
Too many people too close together always causes problems.
Wars are a gross example. Just look at what is going on in Israel right now, with that wall. Basically one group wants what the other group has.
A small example would be our communities here. Would there be any CC&R s prohibiting towers if we all lived on 10 or more acres? I doubt it. These things happen when too many people get crammed too close together.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 21, 2004
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by KB9YZL on August 19, 2004
"A previous post wrote: “Simply put, don't do illegal or immoral things and you'll be fine.”
Hmmm…….Sounds to me like all we have to do is add “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” to that, and we have it covered! "
Upon first reading the original post, I was flabergasted that anyone could feel that way. I don't have a problem with the part about not doing things illegal. I'm supposed to, with my vote, have some influence on that, and I'm supposed to be able to expect commons sense and due process if accused.
The part about 'don't do immoral things' is what got me. WHO is deciding FOR me just what is moral and immoral??
Apparently it bugged you too. I hadn't thought of the quote you supplied, but knowing where it was posted, above what gate, tells one which group in history supplied it.
You've made an interesting point.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 21, 2004
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by TG9AKH on August 19, 2004
"Another good reason that we should all keep using CW for sending amateur messages, since nobody can decode it anymore, not even hams. I solemnly propose Morse as the new standardized encryption protocol for hams worldwide.
:-) "
Another interesting point!
:)
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 21, 2004
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by KY1V on August 19, 2004
"
KC9FQM wrote...
"It's very sad to see us lose our civil liberties while we make other countries free. While I have nothing to hide, it's a shame we have to be monitored as we drive down the street, or walk to the library, or whatever."
You are correct, it is sad that we have to be monitored, "
'Have' to be monitored? Have to ??
Who says we 'have to' ?
It is nothing more than a poor attempt at a solution to a problem. The attempt creates MORE problems.
" but considering the crime rate these days, it is probably for the better. People will kill you for a couple of dollars! "
That is because they know nothing will happen to them. We've created this breed.
Nothing will happen to them because your right to protect yourself and your loved ones has been legislated away.
"I used to think freedom was the most important thing in the world and what I do was no one elses business, but having four children changes a man.
I say monitor everything and watch everyone outside of their homes."
You don't think freedom is important, and you want to monitor everybody?
In my opinion, you are a dangerous person to us all.
" With all the hair brained lunatics running around these days kidnapping children, raping women and breaking into private homes and businesses alike, I for one welcome the new big brother.
..."
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 21, 2004
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by KC8VWM on August 21, 2004
"
Hey Carl,
Haven't you noticed? Perhaps you haven't been looking at it the right way yet. Here's an example:
Have you been shopping at Warcart lately?
What really annoys me is how they force everyone to pass by a "Checkpoint Charlie" station as you exit the store. Why not just ask me for my "passport papers" instead of my cash register reciept? "
You don't like being made guilty until you prove yourself innocent either, eh? Neither do I.
Ever had the equipment trigger as you go through? I have. At first, I didn't mind stopping. I thought I'd just flash my receipt and be on my way. Little did I know I'd be delayed a good 10 minutes while they fumbled around.
After I got over my anger, I gave it some thought. Just because their equipment malfunctions is not my problem. It is THEIR problem.
Now I have a new way of dealing with them. I just say "No" and keep walking.
What are they going to do? Accuse me of shoplifting? That would be a lawsuit sized mistake. Attempt to physically stop me? That would be assault, and first I would defend myself, then I'd have them charged.
See.... just because some machine malfunctions, is not just cause.
...
"Don't you get the "feeling" that you are not "allowed" to pass until you have presented the appropriate papers at the exit door. "
You are correct, although I didn't realize it at the time. I just knew that something was not right.
"Perhaps it is actions like these that are slowly degrading and further resticting our freedoms? "
Whether or not it is intentional or not I cannot say. That would imply a conspiracy, and I won't go there.
But as it is, it is conditioning. Conditioning people to get used to being treated like this.
Think back. Did you know your grandfather? or somebody that was around 60 or more years ago?
What would he have said and done if somebody had stopped him at the door of a store as he exited, and asked him if he had paid for the stuff in his bag?
Would he have taken major offense and felt insulted?
I think so.
Times change. Right and wrong do not.
"You don't call this "subtle" action a loss of your civil liberties? Then what else would you call it?
Actions carried out in this fasion appear so very innocent at first,"
How true!
They are just not well thought out.
"and then suddenly it grows until we all become compliant like sheep. "
Not all. Most.
Then the few that do not comply are considered to be trouble makers.
"We hardly give it any second thought."
Human nature is amazing, isn't it?
"Choose and guard your civil liberties very carefully. "
Well put.
"Thanks for listening. "
Same.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K4JF on August 21, 2004
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"Just which countries have we made free? "
Good grief!!! Don't you read any history, or even the newspapers???? How about Germany, Japan, France, Italy, Belgium for starters (courtesy of our parents), then there's Georgia, Lithuania, and all the other countries that our winning the "Cold War" set free. And do you think Israel could have held onto their ancestral lands without our help??
Such a ridiculous question.
And yet we are selling our own freedom for a little transitory "security".
Sad.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WR8Y on August 21, 2004
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First, this is a non-article. It's a rant, where is the editing team?
Second, as I read this:
------
Have you been shopping at Warcart lately?
What really annoys me is how they force everyone to pass by a "Checkpoint Charlie" station as you exit the store. Why not just ask me for my "passport papers" instead of my cash register reciept?
Perhaps some might think that my example may be a little extreme? Then try and think about what possible purpose or reason this action could serve other than to "restict" me from moving about freely? ...
Don't you get the "feeling" that you are not "allowed" to pass until you have presented the appropriate papers at the exit door.
Perhaps it is actions like these that are slowly degrading and further resticting our freedoms?
You don't call this "subtle" action a loss of your civil liberties? Then what else would you call it?
------
I got dizzy from shaking my head. You sound like you are telling me that WalMart is part of a gov't conspiracy to take our freedoms away. You've lost me there - I don't have a membership in the "Black Helicopter Crowd", do you??
Walmart is private property. They can do business any way they want to - it's up to you and me to NOT reward them. I don't shop there because they offend me:
1) When I am in the store.
2) When I leave the store (as you have aptly described.)
3) When I am subjected to their moronic commercials.
I agree that WalMart is a bad idea grown out of control (ever heard of how they are trying to get the city to throw a bunch of black families off their own properties in Anniston Alabama? Walmart wants the land cheap, and the city wants more tax revenue. The dumbass city is siding with WalMart.)
WalMart IS the enemy, and if you'd not tried to tell us they are "taking our freedoms aweay" I could side with you. Just STOP GOING IN THERE.
Wait a minute - I just told you that WalMart is trying to throw people off their land, what freedom is more important than private property rights?
DAMN, you were RIGHT all along! (And Im NOT being sarcastic.)
73, Mark
WR8Y
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Ben Franklin
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by KA4KOE on August 22, 2004
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More on this idea....recommended reading is a collection of essays by ole Ben entitled "Fart Proudly". It will show you a side of the statesmen that they don't teach you in history class.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by PHINEAS on August 22, 2004
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If you don't think that they can't already capture IP pakets, you are mistaken. They are just trying to cover up what they have been doing for years.Most people don't understand the a "Router" IS a COMPUTER. Do a "tracert www.yahoo.com" and see how many routers you go through from your location to get there. Net sniffers have been out longer than I could remember.
Walmart
1. We as Americans have been taught to buy the cheapest possible products, despite the consequences. Every working class person wants to complain about the lack of jobs, but they will bypass the local general store, and buy chinese junk from Walmart. Despite what this does to the local general store, or the unemployed relatives that lost there job to the communists.
2. About the "Check Out" enforcement. The more people, the the poorer the neighborhood, the more people steal. Inventory loss prevention is a big money industry. Another factor is the checkout people themselves. Some of them like to steal also.
Walmart is just a bad example.
However keep in mind FEAR is a good manipulation tool. Make everyone a criminal, and you will be able to control them, and extort them. All you have to do is read the new testament of Bible, and you will get the picture. Funny how history repeats itself.
Phineas
K0KMA
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KC8VWM on August 23, 2004
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"Inventory loss prevention is a big money industry. Another factor is the checkout people themselves. Some of them like to steal also. "
So is this the premise to unlawfully search anyone they feel like at the door?
Sounds to me like they should have "probable cause" before conducting a search or stopping a person. Otherwise it would just be a plain illegal search. Who gave these people authority to conduct searches without proboble cause? This is the kind of stuff you read about it pre-war Russia.. Give your head a shake...
Someone said something like, "If you dont like it then don't go there."
Hey, wait a minute.. I have a right to shop anywhere I choose (Don't I?) and furthermore, I have a right not to be subjected to any unreasonable search and seizure regardless of where I shop.
I don't care if they are dressed like clowns, laughing and carry ballons at the door etc. Hardly a conspiracy... More like an everyday reality...
Simply put, I will refuse to allow anyone to violate my civil rights by searching me without a warrant or just cause.. period...
You can all give in and surrender your rights if you like, but you will have to pry mine from my dead cold hands.
I hope the **** that you don't work at "Checkpoint Charlie" at this store, cause you are going to have to deal with me!
Your forefathers fought and died for the freedom you have today.. You better think twice before you start giving them away based on some simple excuse or premise that makes everything sound all ok.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Ben Franklin
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by KC8VWM on August 23, 2004
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"I don't have a membership in the "Black Helicopter Crowd", do you?? "
No Mark, I don't.. But you will be quickly surprised how many people will suddenly sign you up for a membership...
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by N6KEK on August 23, 2004
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Funny how our legislators when put on the hot seat about unsolicted pornographic matter arriving in our e-mail accounts and pop-up invasion and the call goes out for Congress to enact legislation designed to protect our children their favorite mantra is " these low-life Cyberslut parasites" cannot be tracked because Congressmen visit these sites as well however when the issue of sales tax on internet sales resurfaces time after time it is said it is easily tracked so collection of taxes would be very easy and it suddenly becomes implemented.
So it should be no surprise to anyone for the government to demand VoIP be treated like any other telecommunications medium. But just wait until the "Homeland Security" monster is in complete operation.
Bob
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 23, 2004
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I agree with WIK&WH. Cell phones are monitored. Terrorist use pre-paid cell phones.
As for NET calls. Believe it or not the U.S. has perhaps 75% of WWW routers, yet the INTERNET is not owned by anybody. Their is a world wide panel that sets up the rules.
Even terrorist states must abid by the WWW panel.
They do. If they do not, they loose all their adresses.
There is much grey letter law still the panel has to decide on.
The U.S. can tap into any part of the NET. The homeland security act made it offical.
I am not saying I totaly like it. I think that comedian should not be in jail because of a homeland security act.
The Dude from Cheech and Chong was busted
for selling cannibus pipes. The intel was gathered under the homeland security act.
Evidence from tapping should only be reserved for terrorist activity intel. Not a misdemenor or E feloney
by a U.S. citizen. In some states what he was doing is legal. I thought it was a waste of tax payer dollars.
That is where I draw the line. The Homeland act should not be wasted on non terrorist actity.
However High level drug lords are terrorist too. Narco dollars certainly leads to terrorism.
I think the FEDS really exposed their hand too much, by tapping a washed up, burned out actor selling pipes and grow lights. He got something like 10 years. I do not condone what he did! However the homeland act was abused in this case.
Seems with all the tapping, the big problem is having enough translators. The terrorist are not going to speak english when planning something.
I hope the next generation of 64 bit CPU's could be used to make supercomputers to speech recog and translate.
The new 64 bit systems will not be allowed to be sold in certain configs to the consumer. That is too much computer power.
What ever. Use what ever technolgy to get these miscreants. It is life of death. The terrorist want to die.
I read some place that the sleeper cells find american culture evil. The sleepers are not going to find american life so good, they will give up their plans. So when it comes to terrorism ,1984 has to look like woodstock of 69 at only very specific targets.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KF4WXD on August 23, 2004
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Another impossible-to-enforce law from Uncle Stupid. As for loss of civil liberties, if you don't understand, you never will.
Russ
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 23, 2004
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Hmmmmmmmm..BLACK HELICOPTERS? ALPHABET AGENCIES?
aHHH. You may laugh now! Remember that paranoia sometimes is just knowing all the facts!!! HI-HI
Thread idea.....
Are you more of a black helicopter Ham or an alphabet agenct Ham? Or wanna-be trilateral conspiracist. A member of the grassy knoll society. CIA wood pecker.
Willium S Burroughs/Joe Edgar hoover cross dresser?
How bout an NSA Elvis wannabe. Combo NRA/NRC member!
D.O.E energy enthusiast! Chuck berris or Chuck Berry
airforce seal! Burned out 60's DARPA impersonator.
WA2jjh Black helicopter commando wannabe and future WRITER of NASTRADAMIS FOR NITWITS!
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KD7NBH on August 23, 2004
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VWM said:
"Sounds to me like they should have "probable cause" before conducting a search or stopping a person. Otherwise it would just be a plain illegal search. Who gave these people authority to conduct searches without proboble cause? This is the kind of stuff you read about it pre-war Russia.. Give your head a shake...
Someone said something like, "If you dont like it then don't go there."
Hey, wait a minute.. I have a right to shop anywhere I choose (Don't I?) and furthermore, I have a right not to be subjected to any unreasonable search and seizure regardless of where I shop."
---------------
Did you ever hear of a little known concept called 'private property'? They OWN the store, and you have the right to shop anywhere you want, but they also have the right to make you follow THEIR rules while in THEIR store. This is a little different than the government doing illegal searches - you have a hard time stopping them. To stop Walmart, just go to Kmart instead. Would you allow anyone to come into your home and do anything they wanted while there, just because they felt that they wanted to exercise their 'freedom'? Wake up and get a life!
Ed
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WILLY on August 23, 2004
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by KD7NBH on August 23, 2004
"Did you ever hear of a little known concept called 'private property'?"
Sure.
I live on it.
"They OWN the store, and you have the right to shop anywhere you want, but they also have the right to make you follow THEIR rules while in THEIR store. "
Rules, yes. But what about laws? As long as THEIR store is in MY country/state/locale they will follow those laws. Their "rules" will not violate them.
If I feel something is wrong with our laws, I'll voice my opinion, get others to do the same, and vote out the bums that can't make decent, common sense laws.
"This is a little different than the government doing illegal searches - you have a hard time stopping them. "
Stopping who? The government or Walmart?
Surely not WalMart. Just ignore them.
Remember, if their malfunctioning buzzer goes off when you exit, the onus is upon THEM to prove you stole something. God help us if and when people accept that the onus is upon the individual to prove they did NOT steal something.
Once I pay for an item, it is mine. It is nobody else's business anymore.
Else, they would be able to question me about the shirt I am wearing, pants and shoes too.
"To stop Walmart, just go to Kmart instead."
Sometimes that might not be convenient. But it is a working solution.
"Would you allow anyone to come into your home and do anything they wanted while there, just because they felt that they wanted to exercise their 'freedom'?"
Of course not. THAT is private property. I don't have my home open for business, and trying to attract people to come in. Walmart does. Any store does. While they may be 'private' businesses, they are open to the public.
"Wake up"
Good advice. I hope you have.
"and get a life! "
And I hope yours is pleasant.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KT0DD on August 24, 2004
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This site is different from the sleazy chat rooms on MSN/AOL etc, HOW.....?
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Your Brains Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by HERTZ on August 24, 2004
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Yep, brains must be able to be tapped too. The challenge is to get a tight coupling with the brain, especially when it's tiny. You may need a very large coupling inductor to tap into that brain... while using a shunt capacitor and a 10kV generator to induce some neural action.
What's all this discussion about "civil liberties" and WalMart got to do with Ham Radio? If I wanted to read this much pseudo-political rubbish I would subscribe to political_junkie.org or neoconpride-alt, or "The Crypto-Anarchist" magazine. Actually, my favourite is ideological_fanatics_for_world_domination.org
Would fanatics on all sides **please** go hijack some other website or better still, start your own. Most of this thread amounts to a pseudo-discussion on the basis of feeble irrational arguments that would not make it past Politics 101 in any reputable University (undergrad level of course).
*Note I said most, not *all* arguments.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KC8VWM on August 24, 2004
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Ed says,
"Did you ever hear of a little known concept called 'private property'? They OWN the store, and you have the right to shop anywhere you want, but they also have the right to make you follow THEIR rules while in THEIR store."
The private property "excuse" is not a license to automatically assume everyone is stealing from the store by default. Hence the very reason our society has a judicial process in place. Property owners are not above the law or above this process.
Private property owners must follow due process like anyone else before they can make assumptions about individuals on thier property.
Ever hear of "Innocent until proven guilty?" It is actually written into the law.
According to your logic, property owners are allowed to slam down the gavel and issue everyone a sentence of automatic guilt until proven innocent.
You do have a legal right to refuse an unreasonable search based on a persons assumptions. However, they may still request that you "volunteer" to a search.
The only people that have any legal right to stop and search any individual would be what is called a "Peace Officer"
Last time I checked, the guy who requested to see my merchandise as I was exiting the store did not have this legal authority.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KC8VWM on August 24, 2004
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"What's all this discussion about "civil liberties" and WalMart got to do with Ham Radio?"
Well, it is a complex issue...
First you have people taping into your net phone calls over your internet connection and then viola - you are suddenly being violated at the Walmart checkout.
Next thing you know, even your Ham Radio equipment will soon be impregnated with a chip that will allow the manufacturers to monitor your radio tuning habits and activities. Like spyware it will record and send everything shown on your frequency display to the mothership at the YeaComWood command center.
Hope that clears everything up...
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KD5HQN on August 24, 2004
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Just be because the military stopped using Morse code as a primary means of communication does not mean they still have the ability to decode it. I trained at FT Huachuca AZ, the home of the Military Inteligance School for the United States Military. We had all branches of service training there and all four were training Morse Intercept operators, or as we technicians all liked to call them di-dots. Of course before I joined the military I was on my way to being a Di-dot anyway to upgrade my ham ticket which I still haven't done yet. But my point is that the government still has plenty of capabilities for receiving and decoding morse code.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K4RAF on August 24, 2004
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"What's all this discussion about "civil liberties" and WalMart got to do with Ham Radio?"
Perhaps Mr. Hertz & like minded psuedo-moronocons should look up "RFID" in Google & do some more reading. Then they can look up "smart dust" for a real hoot about the future of our liberty.
Walmart has already been using it for inventory control. RF has been crudely used as "theft prevention" because the items are all using VLF microstrips to trip the exit alarm by detuning the antennas that stand upright.
I guess paranoids would like to know that the most popular tag is shaped like an RF "swastika".
Maybe if we introduced the "dumbass chip" into ham radios, it would ID for you, making tuning up unID'd & peanut gallery commentary impossible?
So stupid, it 'Hertz'...
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 24, 2004
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> Even terrorist states must abid by the WWW panel.
> They do. If they do not, they loose all their
> adresses.
<sigh>It's not a "WWW panel", it's just a body that sets the standards and allocates the numbers. It doesn't deal with governments, it deals with companies and individuals that connect communication equipment to the internet. And it definitely does not make international law.
> The U.S. can tap into any part of the NET. The
> homeland security act made it offical.
Nope. The US government makes laws that apply to the US proper, and to US citizens. But even in the US large parts of the net are not tapable, even with due process. The wiretapping ruling by the FCC makes it a requirement of commercial providers of internet telephony that they be able to tap their telephony if served with a proper warrent.
> That is where I draw the line. The Homeland act
> should not be wasted on non terrorist actity.
There's a reason why we have separation of powers and due process: even well intending agencies make mistakes, and power corrupts. C.F. FBI files on popular performers during the Johnson and Nixon adminiistrations.
> Seems with all the tapping, the big problem is
> having enough translators. The terrorist are not
> going to speak english when planning something.
Sorting through the data has *always* been a problem that whatever technology was available couldn't solve.
> I hope the next generation of 64 bit CPU's could be
> used to make supercomputers to speech recog and
> translate.
The problems with automatic translation are not solvable by throwing horsepower at them.
> The new 64 bit systems will not be allowed to be
> sold in certain configs to the consumer. That is too
> much computer power.
Oh crap. The average gamer cube has more horsepower than even high end supercomputer facilities of 20 years ago, and the only thing that's ever come of it is a greater demand for gamer cubes.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 24, 2004
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> Good grief!!! Don't you read any history, or even
> the newspapers???? How about Germany, Japan, France,
> Italy, Belgium for starters (courtesy of our
> parents),
Ever since I read a detailed history of World War II, I have been unable to understand this claim. WW-II was won in Europe mainly through the incalculable sacrifice of Russians.
> then there's Georgia, Lithuania, and all the other
> countries that our winning the "Cold War" set free.
We did such a good job of winning that one that our own intelligence agencies were surprised when the soviet union fell. I'm not a big fan of "historical inevitability", but Uncle Joe had a bigger part in the fall of the USSR than the US did.
Meanwhile, by the way, don't look, but China's still in business.
> And do you think Israel could have held onto their
> ancestral lands without our help??
The single dumbest thing the British did after WW-II, that. By the way, guess which country, statistically, is the least safe place in the world to be a Jew these days?
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by KB7LYM on August 24, 2004
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It is sad but you are a day late and a dollar short.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 25, 2004
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Yes Marty CHINA is the nation to really watch.
I thought what was very creative of the chinese NUKE makers was to use a highly modified GARLIN GPS for guidance and targeting .
They saved mega bux on their ICBMS. When your dealing with a few megatons, 100 feet does not really matter:(
I will look over my notes on a managment course I took. They described ORG like ICASH and other panels.
Your point is well taken, it is the companies in the roque states that can loose their address's.
Still the big point is that is why our enemies are not really sacking us with credit card fruad.
Nostadamous said something about a great populus eastern nation, combining forces with a man with a blue turbine. That it what some people in Washington are buying in to.
Could the terrorist ally themselfs with CHINA?
I really read too much nostradamous and crawly as a kid.
I was just pointing out that the internet does have some rules.
However I was told in class that when WINTEL goes to the next gig major change. For one a new motherboard that is free of todays bottle necks/
The 64 bit memory buss will operate at almost the same speed as the CPU!
Take a 3gig pentium using the 333mhz memory, you see what you get.
Also true dual 64bit processors with 8GIG of ram standard is a real leap in power.
Kids will be cracking credit card numbers faster!
Hi HI.
I will give you my computer managment profs web page. He has some incredble claims, if you are interested.
If you have that info on WLAN laptop HF rig control, I would like to see the info you said you had.
73 peace MIKE
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 25, 2004
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What is going on is a real privacy issue.
When I took my GRE a few yers ago I was photographed.
No big deal right? When I got to the testing booth, I saw my face on the monitor. It was not a photo.
It was a series of dots that roughly looked like me.
I did not know I was BIO-METRICLY scanned.
So my face is a mathematical equation on who knows data base. I did not give permission for a bio-metric scan of my face!
However I guess they feel that showing you the bio-metric image is some type of consent?
I say leave biometric imaging for criminals and anybody in the U.S. on a VISA.
The Bio-metric camera looks just like a regular camera.
Next time you have a passport or drivers lic. photo, I have a funny feeling it will be BIO-METRIC.
They did want to DNA swab people at first.
I have mixed feelings. I bet we have very few Bio-metric images of terrorist.
Bio-Metrics cannot be fooled by eye glass, fake beards and just about anything short of Michael Jackson like plastic surgury.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 25, 2004
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> I will look over my notes on a managment course I
> took. They described ORG like ICASH and other
> panels.
ICANN - "Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers". They're the folks that manage DNS, allocate blocks of IP addresses, and allocate new top level domanins. See http://www.icann.org/
> However I was told in class that when WINTEL goes to
> the next gig major change. For one a new motherboard
> that is free of todays bottle necks/
Well, the process we designed at HP and that Intel picked up to use as part of Itanium is definitely a major architecture change; but it's not doing well in the market and Intel is backing away from high end chips because of weak market and heat problems.
> The 64 bit memory buss will operate at almost the
> same speed as the CPU!
But the processors will need 4-12 times that much bandwidth, especially with multiple CPUs on a die.
> Take a 3gig pentium using the 333mhz memory, you see
> what you get.
A really good space heater.
> Also true dual 64bit processors with 8GIG of ram
> standard is a real leap in power.
I've got a little box sitting here that's got 4 64bit processors and 32gb of DDR RAM and 4 terrabytes of disk...
> I will give you my computer managment profs web
> page. He has some incredble claims, if you are
> interested.
It might be amusing. I haven't looked into outlandish claims in a few years.
> If you have that info on WLAN laptop HF rig control,
> I would like to see the info you said you had.
I put realVNC on both laptops. Just about any rig control program will then work. I've heard that others use "PC Anywhere" and t works for them.
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by AE6IP on August 25, 2004
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> Bio-Metrics cannot be fooled by eye glass, fake
> beards and just about anything short of Michael
> Jackson like plastic surgury.
This claim is certainly made by the industry.
Kinda like the claim that the FBI found finger prints of an Oregon lawyer on a suitcase belonging to one of the Madrid bombers. . .
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Brains Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by HERTZ on August 25, 2004
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K4RAF:
"...about the future of our liberty."
...the future of our liberty? That's a grand statement, but totally and completely unsupported by any kind of argument at all!
Or were you trying to say that the technical/electronics aspects of RF ID tags are extremely interesting? If so, we agree, they are extremely interesting, even fascinating. However, I somehow get the feeling that you were not talking about the technical aspects...
K4RAF: "Walmart has already been using it for inventory control."
What's wrong with inventory control? What's your point and how does it relate to ham radio?
K4RAF: "I guess paranoids would like to know that the most popular tag is shaped like an RF "swastika"."
What "paranoids"? Are there any "paranoids" here? What are you trying to imply or suggest by dropping this little swastika statement? And what does it have to do with amateur radio ANYWAY?
K4RAF: "Maybe if we introduced the "dumbass chip" into ham radios, it would ID for you, making tuning up unID'd & peanut gallery commentary impossible?"
This statement definitely has something to do with ham radio, but it does not follow, at all, from any of your previous statements. Perfect example of your style: non sequitur connected in parallel.
K4RAF, my friend, so far you have presented to us a series of sweeping yet unsupported statements that do not follow from each other, not even at the surface, not in form and much less in substance.
Though a couple of your statements might have something to do with ham radio (provided the reader uses a bit of imagination and is willing to make the connection) the rest of your response is also disconnected with the main subject of interest in this website, i.e., ham radio.
Hertz
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RE: Brains Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K4JSR on August 25, 2004
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Sheesh! I am glad that I come from a time when all
net phone calls were done with a phone patch! ;P
The ham exams may have been rougher back then, but it
was a far simpler time! *SIGH!* :-D
73, Cal K4JSR
Braindead, Ga.
(The Inter-web done it all!)
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 25, 2004
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How did we get from tapping phones to tapping brins?
It would be a hastle for me. If you tap my brain, all you will get is a puff of dust!
They did tap a rats brain. If you want to see what some of you tax dollars go, do a Google search on ROBORAT. There are RF links involved. You may be amused what it can do!
Got to see the little bugger perform at my university. The motivation the rat has is induced by a small electric charge to a part of the midbrain that will produce a euphoric feeling in the rat.
Problem is that the rat dies in less than two years from feeling to good! Actually it is the electric charge inducing nueropathy.
They put an RF camera on it too. So you can have a rat, rat out people!
Really check it out!!!!
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Brains Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by HERTZ on August 26, 2004
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WA2JJH: "How did we get from tapping phones to tapping brins?"
I introduced that line as a sign of my frustration, since people took the discussion far, too far away from anything resembling ham radio!!! It was an indirect way to suggest that a few people writing about the evils of WalMart/Big Brother definitely have problems getting their brains to make fine distinctions between chatrooms to do with politics, and non-political subjects.
WA2JJH: "If you tap my brain, all you will get is a puff of dust!"
Doubt it... your brain seems to be functioning well.
WA2JJH: "They did tap a rats brain...ROBORAT. There are RF links involved. You may be amused what it can do!"
I did a Google search as you suggested. Roborat came up---Interesting and amusing reading. Note that the method proposed in my original posting on tapping brains would raise less ethical issues than the one described in the links I read on Roborat (there's no physical intervention in the proposed method).
In the proposed method, electricity would not be fed directly to specific parts of the brain, but electrical currents would be *remotely* created inside the brain by means of powerful inductors... much like "persuading" the rat's brain to act in a certain way, rather than directly applying an electrical force to it...
The method could also *gently* help resuscitate brains that have stopped working, especially through idleness or inactivity. It may also cure obsessive-compulsive behavior among some political junkies. So RF fields have many, many possible applications still to be explored...
Cheers,
Hertz
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original poster
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by KB2CYK on August 27, 2004
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Has anyone noticed that Mike KA2FIR started this post, gets everyone rilled up and he does not even respond, offer a reply, etc???
Relax, enjoy the coffee, etc.
73'
Kevin
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RE: original poster
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by WIRELESS on August 28, 2004
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Although this thread has little to do with ham radio it is a good reminder how the general public will allow the American government to do whatever the hell it wants to until the government abuses its powers with one of the apathetic, then they start complaining about the stinking government.
If you let the gestopo run wild they will eventually visit you. And when you let the government take your rights they also take mine. And thats not going to be tolerated.
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Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by WA2JJH on August 28, 2004
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Hertz(hope ur fist name is not richard, hi hi)
Many scientist are looking into M.I.P.s and M.E.M.'s.
They can pass the blood brain barrrier, and emulate brain receptors.
STEIMETZ and many other pioneers pretty much had similar idea's as yours.
I was consulted on improving the latest roborats range.
It is a Brave New World indeed!!!!!
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by VE3MFN on October 19, 2004
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"Simply put don't do illegal or immoral things and you'll be fine."
The problem with this is that what is considered, or defined, as illegal or immoral can be changed on a judicial whim........
Richard. VE3MFN
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K8MHZ on January 24, 2005
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The best idea here has nothing to do with either ham radio or this thread.
When you leave a store, WalMart is not the only one, and their shoplifter machine malfunctions, just ignore it. What reason do they have to fix the thing if people simply comply? How do you even know that it is a malfunction? Could it be set to go off at random, causing a certain percentage of customers to be searched?
I know I am tired of false alarms and they have had several years to fix the problem.
I would be interested in seeing just how far store employees would go to try to stop you from leaving their store legally....and would there be compensation available to you if they went to far?
73,
K8MHZ
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by K8MHZ on January 24, 2005
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The best idea here has nothing to do with either ham radio or this thread.
When you leave a store, WalMart is not the only one, and their shoplifter machine malfunctions, just ignore it. What reason do they have to fix the thing if people simply comply? How do you even know that it is a malfunction? Could it be set to go off at random, causing a certain percentage of customers to be searched?
I know I am tired of false alarms and they have had several years to fix the problem.
I would be interested in seeing just how far store employees would go to try to stop you from leaving their store legally....and would there be compensation available to you if they went to far?
73,
K8MHZ
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RE: Net Phone Calls Must Be Able to Be Tapped
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by CPLRADAR on July 29, 2005
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Got a question KT3K. You say were losing civil liberties, what have we lost. The Founding fathers all agreed that the government has the right to keep tabs on it's own population, the government has always had that right, but, to make up for it they gave us the right to bear arms which is what seperates us from the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and the list goes on and on. Iraq and Afghanistan are now off that list.
"All gave some. Some gave all."
But what the hell did any of this have to do with Ham Radio!!!!! And if your offended by me using the word hell. Stand guard duty in the middle east, and then you'll have the right to be offended by me. This isn't a meeting of the terrorist loving ACLU it's about Ham radio, I personally, would like politics to stay the hell out of it because all of you who do the god damned talking about our government are the ones who have gotten my buddies killed over in the middle-east.
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
—Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMarineCorps
Anyone who has a problem with this country. Just get out, I'm sick and tired of seeing my buddies die for an ungrateful nation.
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RE: Follow up.
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by CPLRADAR on July 29, 2005
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If anyone wants to argue this with me:
Andrew Elsworth Hansen III
Rexgame@hotmail.com
Honorable Discharge United States Army
Three tours of duty in the middle-east: Operation Desert Spring/ Southern Watch, Operation Enduring Freedom Operation, Iraqi Freedom
Now could we get back to Ham Radio!!!!!!!!!!!!
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