Proper DX Operating Procedures
from
David Kopacz, KY1V / VP5X
on
September 1, 2004
View comments about this article!
Proper DX Operating Procedures
Recently, Martti Lane, OH2BH, and others began operation from YV0. While the expedition is welcomed by most
hams, their operating procedures leave much to be desired.
Having operated from several locations in the Caribbean, including VP5, PJ2, HI, 6Y5 and ZF, I have had the
opportunity to handle very large pileups. Certainly none of these locations are as rare as YV0, however, the size
of the pileups are certainly comparable. It can be tough sometimes to pick stations out of the crowd, but it can
easily be done and with a great deal of control.
The operator handling the pileup must be in control at all times and not deviate from his method of operation. For
example, when calling for specific call districts, countries or continents, the operator cannot permit stations out
of area to complete a contact. Stations that call out of turn should be ignored until they realize you won't work
them or told to wait if they are persistent.
Once one station is permitted to work the DX station out of turn, others will quickly adapt and call out of turn.
This creates a huge problem and causes stations to call when they should be listening. The DX station must
remain in control at all times and only permit stations to be worked when they are called and they are in the
group being called.
While it is perfectly acceptable to call "Bravo Mike, Bravo Mike" and take an "Alpha Papa" instead during a
CONTEST, a station running a DX operation cannot permit this to happen under any circumstances or others will
quickly adapt and continue to call out of turn.
The DX operator should always end one contact and call QRZ before other stations are permitted to call him. In
fact, there is a simple way to weed out those stations that are persistent about calling out of turn. You cannot
simply ignore them and you cannot permit them to be worked out of turn, but you can take down their call,
pretend you hear them next, work them and not log them. This makes them happy, gets rid of them and prevents
the station from becoming a nuisance on the band.
The DX operator must be fair. When he asks the large EU or US pileups to standby while he calls of Africa, the
Middle East, Asia, QRP stations or a specific station, he must return to the pileup in a reasonably timely fashion in
order to prevent the stations in the pileup from becoming frustrated. It is not polite to make them wait for a long
time and you will find using these operating techniques will keep most people pleased and they will patiently wait
while you make your special contact.
Operating split should only be done when absolutely necessary, which is rare, and should only consume a small
amount of bandwidth, a few KCs at most. The purpose of operating split is NOT so the DX station can have an
easier time of picking out stations calling, but is to prevent strong stations from calling on top of the DX stations
preventing others from hearing which station he called.
The YV0 operation was a mess and caused more problems than they are solved, such as those that
follow:
1) Takes more bandwidth than necessary -- a 20kHz spread is not necessary under any circumstances. This
doesn't include the DX stations transmit frequency and the small 5kHz space between the TX and RX frequencies.
The DX station should listen on only one receive frequency ONLY after verifying the frequency is NOT in use.
2) Causes unintended interference because the DX operator has now way of knowing whom is using his listening
frequencies before he calls CQ and announces those listening frequencies. Again, a 20kHz spread is not required
for any DX station.
3) It brings out the frequency police in mass numbers. Because some people may not be aware the DX station is
operating split, they inadvertently call on the DX stations TX frequency. Hordes of "frequency police" start yelling
things like "split split", "he's listening up", "LID", and a variety of other phrases, most of whom do not ID their
transmissions. This is both illegal and improper operating practices of which the DX station could prevent by only
operating split when necessary and ALWAYS announcing his listening frequency after each contact.
4) A large frequency spread causes undue frustration for both stations that stay on one frequency and call
repeatedly and are never heard and for those that chase the "last called" station and still never get called. Some
of these guys get so frustrated they revert to causing intentional interference to the DX stations TX frequency in
order to vent those frustrations.
5) When calling a station, call him using the same phonetics as he used so EVERYONE knows whom you are
calling. For example, if I give my call as KING YANKEE ONE VICTOR and the DX station hears KING YANKEE, call
for KING YANKEE, not KILOWATT, YOKOHAMA. There may be other stations such as KILOWATT 2 YOKAHAMA or
YOKAHAMA VICTOR ONE on frequency that you do not want calling you when you are trying to work KING YANKEE
ONE VICTOR.
Here are some tips for those calling the DX station in a pile up
1) Give your FULL CALL, preferably once, twice at the most. Do not continue calling. If you are transmitting you
can't hear whom the DX station is calling and if he doesn't hear you over the pileup the first call or two, chances
are he isn't going to hear you if you keep calling. You are only causing interference so others cannot hear whom
the DX is calling
2) Call only when your area is called. Reply only when you hear your phonetics. See #5 above. If the DX station
calls for KILO VICTOR ONE and you are a WHISKEY ONE KILO...don't call! It isn't your turn and you are only
slowing down the process.
3) Don't call on the DX stations TX frequency if he's operating split. LISTEN FIRST, then call. If you hear him
working stations but you can't hear them, he is probably split. Don't call on his TX frequency as you only induce
others to call you a LID which causes them to be twice the LID for also transmitting on the TX frequency AND not
identifying themselves.
4) Don't call until the DX station calls for the next station, EVEN IF he takes others that way. You only lend
yourself to be a LID and you only add to the disruption.
5) Don't tune up on the DX stations TX frequency. Although most of us have Auto Notch and can't hear you, it is
impolite to those using older receivers and it makes you a LID.
6) When you finally do get through, make certain the DX station has your FULL CALL. After giving a signal report.
give your name and QTH ONLY if he is taking that information from others and DON'T DO IT if he is only confirming
signal reports. If you listen before you call, you will know the format for which the DX station is operating and
probably have his name, QTH equipment and QSL manager before you ever work him. Don't be in such a hurry to
jump in before you know what is going on. If you call him ten times then find out he is working only JAs and your
not a JA, then you are a LID.
I am certain that some of the more experienced operators can think of more techniques that would make the YV0
operation more pleasant, but as it stands now, I have no desire to work them...besides, I have YV0 confirmed on
all bands and it would only be for fun. I see no fun trying to chase them across a 20kHz spread causing undue
QRM to others whom would like to use the band.
I would have expected better from an experienced operator like Martti Lane, but I guess when you are a well
known big shot you think you can do as you please, rather than do what's proper.
Sincerely,
David KY1V / VP5X
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by GM7CXM on September 1, 2004
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I agree with most of what you say, David. Although most stations who go to a rare entity are usually experienced operators and usually abide by what you mention, I find that there are times that operators who are not normally hotshot DXers find themselves in rare locations, and this can really cause havoc since they are totally unprepared for the pileup that is going to hit them. I am surprised then to see your comments about YV0, although was not near a radio at the time and thus cannot comment.
I also agree with your comment that DX operators should be fair with the pileup. I have often found myself sitting in the car for a whole lunchtime waiting for a possible "new one" to call for europe, only to have to return empty-handed or hear him fade into the noise, oblivious of having had an opening.
Where I'm not so sure I agree is with split operation. Whilst I take your valid point about useful spectrum and respect for others using those frequencies, this for me is when the good operators will show their ability to listen around and establish the DX station's habit. If the DX station says 5 to 15 up and only listens on 1 frequency, then you have to find out first and then sit there. Or if he's constantly tuning, decide if you want to follow him, or pick a frequency and hope he tunes across you. Both scenarios mean that the DX station has less people calling on his RX frequency at any given time, he will be quicker at running the pile, and everyone will be happier.
As far as the rest of it goes, it should be made mandatory text for all licence classes!
73 de Duncan EA5ON / GM7CXM (occasionaly /C6A)
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by X-WB1AUW on September 1, 2004
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Nice prose.
Many useful suggestions.
I’ve always thought the entire idea behind working split was to increase the Qs handed out per hour.
I suspect there are reasons other than Martti Lane deciding he his a “big-shot”.
73
Bob
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N8UZE on September 1, 2004
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I would recommend standard phonetics under most circumstances. The only time to deviate is when conditions make certain ones difficult to understand. For example "Sierra" and "Golf" sometimes don't come through well when there is static, fading or other such problems. However deviating from the standard should only be done after giving the standard ones a try.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WY3X on September 1, 2004
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I agree on every point! I would like to add, however, that it is -my opinion- that some DX stations should ID more often. Many is the time that I have come on frequency and heard the DX station repeat the calling stations callsign and signal report, and immediately move to the next calling station, only giving out the calling station's callsign and signal report. If a DX station only identifies every 10 minutes (as is legally required) then one may be forced to hang around on frequency for up to 10 minutes for him to give out his callsign. If the operators English is poor, perhaps longer, until you can understand what he or she is saying. If the band fades, you may -NEVER- hear his callsign! Someone might call me a whiner for complaining about having to park my radio for up to 20~30 minutes of my life while I wait to hear a DX station ID, and tell me that this is the price I pay if I want to work DX, but if this is your opinion, that's fine, but I don't agree with you.
I am an "accidental DXer". I don't purposefully seek out DX stations. I don't read about them in QST and then go looking for them on an "advertised" frequency (too much like shooting fish in a barrel). I enjoy working DX, but I don't feel that it's very sporting if you know they're going to be on a certain frequency at a certain time on a certain day. So- I may be happily dialing by and discover a pileup on a certain frequency, then wait my turn to work the DX station. If the operators English is poor, I may miss his/her callsign, and have to wait through two, three, or more of his "cycles" if he's providing his call every 10 minutes. For some people (not me- but I know it happens) this provides an opportunity to become one of the so-called "frequency police". I suspect many of them are frustrated operators just waiting for the DX to provide his callsign so they can move on to another frequency. When the opportunity presents itself for them to insult another operator, the stress level is already high because they've been waiting to "catch" the DX station's callsign, and there you have it, more QRM on the DX station's frequency. So- although not legally required, I would like to see major DX station ops ID every 2 minutes when they're working a big pileup with lots of stations one right after the other.
Another way to look at it is that when one completes a contact, one's callsign should be given on the air. (Per part 97, every 10 minutes and at the END of a contact.) But this is a U.S. rule, and DX stations do not have to abide by United States part 97.
Anyhow, thanks for the opportunity to vent. I look forward to working DX stations for many years, but I do wish you DX stations would identify a little more often... PSE?
-KR4WM
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by AK2B on September 1, 2004
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That was a fine article right up to the point where you slighted Martti Lane. You could have easily left that out.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K0RFD on September 1, 2004
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Great post.
I'd like to say a few things from my useless perspective of a occasional DX chaser with a "little pistol" station comprising 100 watts and a wire antenna.
N8UZE and standard phonetics: Agreed, BUT...
When I'm listening to the DX work the pileup and he's using nonstandard phonetics, I'll use whatever he uses. The objective is for him to understand me so that I get into his log. Many international operators use state, city, country names and other nonstandard phonetics. Normally I'd say Romeo Foxtrot Delta, but if he's called other guys and I've heard him say Radio, Florida, or Denmark, I'm more likely to be understood the first time around if I do it HIS way.
KR4WM and DX identifying more often: Amen. But to that I would add that the DXers shouldn't get into the pileup until they know who they are calling. When a guy breaks thru and then asks the DX for HIS callsign, it wastes time. And makes the DXer look silly.
KR4WM and identifying at the end of the QSO: A real dilemma to be sure. But once the DX says "QRZ", throwing your callsign out there again is just QRM.
Great post, KY1V. I'm no expert, but I get my share. Mostly by LISTENING LISTENING LISTENING and trying to time when and where to call, and by being on the radio enough to sometimes catch them before they are spotted on the cluster. I'd always rather be lucky than smart. There's no way I'm going to power my way thru a pileup, expecially if the DX op has let it get out of hand. KY1V's point is well taken. A good DX op helps a bunch.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NI0C on September 1, 2004
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This is a good thought provoking article-- thanks to KY1V and the eHam editors.
I was away on vacation during the YV0D operation, but I believe this was the first operation from YV0 since the YW0RCV operation in 1994. I'm sure the pileups were formidable because of the pent-up demand.
I do take issue with some of the author's comments concerning split frequency operation:
"Operating split should only be done when absolutely necessary, which is rare, and should only consume a small amount of bandwidth, a few KCs at most. The purpose of operating split is NOT so the DX station can have an easier time of picking out stations calling, but is to prevent strong stations from calling on top of the DX stations preventing others from hearing which station he called. .... a 20kHz spread is not necessary under any circumstances."
I think it can be argued that the bandwidth necessary to manage a split frequency pileup is mode dependent-- if a CW pileup is spread over five or more KHz, I don't see 20 KHz as necessarily excessive for an SSB pileup. I do agree that there should be some kind of limits-- the 100 KHz spreads used by Romeo's XY0RR were just insane.
Also, I think that both purposes mentioned by the author for operating split are valid-- especially for unusually rare operations such as YV0.
73 de Chuck NI0C
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KA3NRX on September 1, 2004
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It is just so aggrivating when a DX station operates split and there are many calling on the transmit frequency. This boils down to listening as someone mentioned. Too many times, we just jump into the fire without carefully paying attention.
As for the DX station, why can't all who operate these expeditions take their calls by district when they work a particular part of the world? Not everyone runs a KW and a 3 element tri-bander. And the last I heard, this was a hobby where competition shouldn't matter. If you are a dx station or dxpedition, and the pile is growing forever large, please please please, take the calls by section or district. You will have a lot more happy DXers out their than what you might think!
Vince P
KA3NRX
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY6R on September 1, 2004
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I think CW ops should always be split and work up 1 or 2. I think phone ops need more than that, but less than a 20 khz spread.
I think the way Martii handled the phone pileups was about as good as it gets (given the insane pent up demand and frustration), and I think if the dx-pedition could have stayed there longer that they would have naturally occupied less bandwidth as the pileups thinned out.
In fact, by the end of many large scale dx-peditions the dx ops almost sound lonely. C'est la vie - it doesn't always go that way, does it?
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by VERMONTHAMRADIO on September 1, 2004
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Please don’t lecture me on how to operate a DX station, and I will refrain from lecturing you on what the numeric part of your call is SUPPOSED to represent. I agree with Tom Hall, AK2B, you could have left the comment about Martti, out of your post.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K0RFD on September 1, 2004
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I have to agree with the previous poster.
To clarify, my "good post" comments above had to do with the information imparted. It was useful. The same information could have been imparted without insulting anyone. I have worked OH2BH and he's an absolutely outstanding op.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NI0C on September 1, 2004
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"And the last I heard, this was a hobby where competition shouldn't matter."
DX pileups are, by their very nature, competitive!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WD0M on September 1, 2004
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If I may add one more observation - when you ARE the DX, and in a rare location for a short period of time, there should be a sense of "urgency" in your operations, IF the intent is to pass out as many QSOs as possible to the deserving masses. I did not hear that with the YVØD operation. The QSO rate was very low when compared to other DXpeditions, and, I believe, that frustration added to the problems.
73,
Joe
WDØM
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KB9CRY on September 1, 2004
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Yes, I guess this Martti Lane guy needs to learn a lot about working a DX pileup!? Geesh, he is a big shot and deservedly so; he's an expert at working a pileup and has the experience and credentials to back it up! And, if he wants to casually operate from DX, then he, and anyone else, can do the same. There's no law to prevent him from doing that. And, I don't see what the big deal is with YV0, especially from NA. There's been plenty of DXpeditions from there in the last decade. Also, because YV0 is so close to NA, the pileups were probably very nasty and very loud because even 100W stations can blast in to that location. I had no problem working them; one just had to be patient and learn their technique. Finally, they probably were a little casual since they had intended to stay a lot longer but Mother Nature forced them off the island sooner than they liked. Don't fret, someone will go back soon. Phil KB9CRY
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AB0SI on September 1, 2004
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I'm a newbie at all this. Perhaps (mostly likely/certainly/obviously -- pick one) this makes my comments meaningless or at least unimportant. With that disclaimer....
I agree with David's point about misuse of bandspace (running split with the listening window 20K wide). I sdo not agree with the rest of the "has to" and "needs to" comments.
It seems to indicate that the DXers exists for us. Gosh, they spend 18 zillion dollars, time, effort, etc., and they exist for US? I am always grateful when I snag a new one. It never occurs to me to be upset because the DX station isn't running a great rate, has operating difficulties, refuses to hear my melodious voice, etc.
If the tone were a bit different ("it would be nice if..") then he makes some wonderful points.
It would be nicer if the hams calling would be nice, too. <grin> One of my favorite daydreams is to go on a DXpedition to some rare rock with a list of the worse offenders -- you know, the ones who scream ont top of an existing QSO, the ones who yell their call signs regardless of who to station is calling ("africa only, please".."AB0SI ...Sugar India... Sugar India..."), the ones who have no idea who they are calling - this is my favorite, the self-appointed cops -- my second favorite, etc.
Paul AB0SI
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WB2WIK on September 1, 2004
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Good article! And very relevant, except seems like it was written before the expedition was chased off their little island by a storm...so we'll never know what they "could" have worked, had they been there longer.
One point I'd make about DXpedition practices: It was stated in this thread that stations only have to identify once every ten minutes. That's not true.
First, that's an FCC requirement, and most DXpeditions don't fall on American soil, so the FCC has nothing to do with them. But regardless, stations must identify not only once every ten minutes, but at the end of every single contact (the law reads, "communications," but this is always interpreted as being a contact). If you make 100 contacts in ten minutes, that's 100 IDs.
Further, the usual requirements for a bonda fide contact are the exchange of callsigns and reports (no clarification as to what "report" means, but it's usually considered to mean a signal report or serial number; in VHF-UHF contests, often a grid square instead -- or in some sprints, maybe a name). This is a requirement for a QSL card, for every single contest there is, and for awards purposes.
When a DXpedition IDs once every ten minutes (or in any case, when he does *not* ID with each and every contact), every contact made where the DX station does not identify really isn't a valid contact, is it?
For that matter, when "we," who work the DXpedition, don't identify with their callsign as well as ours to complete the contact, was a contact really made? There technically wasn't any exchange.
It's true that it takes longer to say or send a callsign, usually, than to say or send "QRZ?" or "TU," but geesh -- how much does that really slow down an operation? Instead of a contact every ten seconds, maybe it would be one every eleven seconds? But at least those contacts made would be legitimate.
I hold great respect and admiration for the few expedition ops who go to great lengths to identify often. Heck, set your keyer at 100wpm and send the callsign in 60 milliseconds, for all I care. At least send an ID!
When I make a contact because the DX cluster showed a station on a particular frequency, and I exchanged "59" or "599" reports with somebody but never actually heard his callsign, is this a contact? Baloney.
WB2WIK/6
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K6AER on September 1, 2004
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Great posting by David. As for the split operation it is incumbent on the operators who are answering the DX station to make sure the frequency is clear. The DX station operator may not be able to hear all the activity at each location but if you can hear a QSO in progress it is a sure bet the QOS will be able to hear you. This is not rocket science. Ask if the frequency is clear. If it is not, find another frequency. I think is very selfish to consume 20 KHz of band just because you and your buds don’t want to take the time to control the pileup on your calling frequency.
When you hear an operator controlling a pileup with precision it is an inspiration to hear how the situation is kept in hand.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N4KZ on September 1, 2004
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Interesting posting with many valid points. After chasing DX for 35 years, I finally got to be DX earlier this year while operating from KP2. Being the DX station is a VERY different experience than being one of the callers in a pile-up.
Some things I learned:
1. I now understand why some DX stations take so long to pick out a station and respond to callers in a pile-up. Often, the pile-ups were so large it was nearly impossible to pick out any callsigns -- or even partial calls. The whole thing was often a huge roar of jumbled voices. (I can't imagine what the pile-ups would have sounded like if I'd been a truly rare DX station.)
2. Those stations that did get through often did one of two things right -- either their timing was good and they called when no one else or few others were calling OR they had a tremendously strong signal that just stomped over top of everyone else. There were many such super-strong U.S. signals -- particularly on 10 and 20 meters.
As has been said before, every pile-up reaches a crescendo and people stand-by to listen for the DX station's reply -- and that is the precise moment to announce your complete call one time. Those who mastered that technique made the QSOs even with modest signals.
3. I was determined on this casual DXpedition not to work split because I felt badly about occupying whole segments of the bands instead of just one frequency. In hindsight, this practice only slowed down the hourly rate because I often had to repeat my replies to stations because they couldn't hear me over others still calling. Working split would have made things easier for me and those calling. And that would have generated more QSOs.
On my next Caribbean adventure, I will probably work split but listen up 5 or something similar. No "I'm listening 14.200 to 14.250" for me. (I've had some really nice contacts ruined over the years when a rare DX station suddenly opened up nearby and announced he was listening "200 to 250" and suddenly I found myself trounced with QRM from people who didn't listen before they transmitted.)
4. We should have broken the pile-ups into smaller sizes by calling for specific call areas more often.
5. I like to work QRP and we tried standing-by several times for QRP stations only to have people call who probably weren't running low power. Or they hurridly turned down their power after having called unsuccessfully at 100W or more. That hardly seems fair to me.
But it was the most fun experience I've had my whole life and the best experience in 35 years of ham radio. (Although making EME contacts on 2m with a small station was a close second!) And we took frequent breaks from radio to do tourst things with the XYL so she had a good time too. That way, I get to go back!
73, N4KZ
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by ZL2JUR on September 1, 2004
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Dear KY1V,
Stating that Martti Lane’s operating “procedures leave much to be desired” was totally uncalled for.
“I would have expected better from an experienced operator like Martti Lane, but I guess when you are a well known big shot you think you can do as you please, rather than do what's proper.”
Again, your attempt to “degrade” him is apparent.
I feel that a PUBLIC apology to Martti is in order.
I noticed that you were voted “amateur of the year” in the states. With an attitude like yours, I feel sure you’ll have a one year reign.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WESTCOAST on September 1, 2004
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David KY1V
You’re article comes off like you want to be the frequency police.
Your negative attitude toward others shows very bright in your post. I dont see why you needed to say that about a fellow ham unless your jealous
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by G3VGR on September 1, 2004
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Martti Lane a LID? What an extremely bitter attack on someone who has activated many rare DX locations and given many amateurs "new ones"
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NI0C on September 1, 2004
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I have one more comment with regard to the original article. The author states:
"Having operated from several locations in the Caribbean, including VP5, PJ2, HI, 6Y5 and ZF, I have had the opportunity to handle very large pileups. Certainly none of these locations are as rare as YV0, however, the size of the pileups are certainly comparable."
My guess is that the pileups (at least initially) on a YV0 station would be at least an order of magnitude greater than any pileup on the routinely available preixes mentioned by the author. Herein lies the problem. While I respect KY1V's experience, I suspect that techniques useful in managing routine size pileups may not work very well in the large pileups.
I would defer to OH2BH's judgement concerning the YV0 expedition. Martti Laine has more experience than perhaps any other living ham in managing pileups on DX entities appearing near the top of the "most wanted" lists.
73 de Chuck NI0C
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Thank you
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by KV6O on September 1, 2004
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Excellent article, good points. I wish more articles on eham were like this with a minimum of BS.
SteveL
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RE: Thank you
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by CW-FOREVER on September 1, 2004
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This article seems to be more about insulting a very good DX operator than proper DX procedure. I’ve read, and re-read the article many times. KY1V, you may be a good operator, no idea, never heard of you. But, I have heard of Martti, and have actually had a QSO or two with him. Your article comes off with the trace of jealousy. Shame on you for the insults.
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I saw no operator problems
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by N0TONE on September 1, 2004
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I only worked them on CW, but there, the procedures blew me away. There were lengthy periods of no transmission from the DX station - up to a minute. Then, in rapid-fire succession, they'd go through the "list" of who they heard clearly while listening:
W5XYZ 599 <wait for reply>
TU W1XXX 599 <wait for reply>
TU JA1XXX 599 <wait for reply>
After going through a list of maybe 20 stations, he'd do "QRZ DE YV0D", and then go into listen mode for a minute or so.
The stations attempting to work the DX could very quickly identify this method. They all knew it was pointless to attempt to call the DX during the periods that he was waiting for a reply. The DX station, for his part, got to hear the replies with very little QRM. I've never heard it done this way before, but it was unbelievably efficient.
AM
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N8CP on September 1, 2004
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It would be nice if when the DX acknowledges a Call sign the other stations would shut up and let them complete the contact.
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DX Piles max 4kHz split
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by KQ6XA on September 1, 2004
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Good article!
Having experienced both sides of the pile myself, from different countries, I say splits never should exceed 4kHz. Worldwide HF spectrum is valuable, and every kilohertz counts. For SSB, 3kHz or 4kHz is a sufficient split. Why use 5kHz or 10kHz when 4kHz will do?
I also say that a rare DX station operator that requires more than a single listening frequency is either a lazy wimp, or needs a very good reason to take up so much bandspace.
We all know that some DXpedition operators, no matter how prolific or benevolent they may be, may actually have "anterior motives" for making their pileup take up more spectrum than necessary. Some DXpedition ops actually believe it enhances their "legendary position" in the history of gigantic pileup generating. In their own twisted mind, it is a badge of honor that their pile took 50kHz of bandspace.
There may be other reasons for DXpedition ops making decisions that seem to apparently put them in the category of "LID".
In some cases, a DXpedition op who requires a wide band of split listening spectrum may be incapable, or lack the skill of, pulling out callsigns when many stations are calling on one freq.
Some DXpedition ops who are hearing impaired require more listening spectrum to sort out the callsigns. This is about the only valid reason to excuse broad spectrum piles.
Bonnie KQ6XA
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RE: DX Piles max 4kHz split
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by X-WB1AUW on September 1, 2004
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“Some DXpedition ops actually believe it enhances their "legendary position" in the history of gigantic pileup generating. In their own twisted mind, it is a badge of honor that their pile took 50kHz of band space.”
I haven’t heard that one before.
Some of the DX legends that come to my mind are VK9NS, ZL2AMO, K0IR, OH2BH, the Colvins, Vince in Carefree AZ, Chod Harris, and that grumpy German fellow, Baldur (Baldar?). Oh. How could I forget dear old Romeo! My first P5 card!
What DX ops boost their egos by seeing how much band space they use for split?
And, what exactly did they tell you that confirmed this?
73
Bob
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N6AJR on September 1, 2004
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Thought we had a good article but then I figured it was a good excuse to take a shot at M.L. I don't always agree with the way any one runs his pileup, but its his pile up.. his choice. I have heard folks with out a clue do poorley, so having some one doing their own way is ok by me.. If I ever get the chance, I will do it MY way 73 all, and thanks for all the effort that you guys expend for our benefit
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KY1V's DX Operating Procedures
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by MEIDELBERG on September 1, 2004
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The first and last lines of the article shed light (IMO) of motive of this author. This is shameful, whether intentional or not.
KY1V, it appears to me that you wish for everyone to operate their DX station, the way you prefer to operate yours. Sorry, not going to happen in this lifetime. As long as the rules and regs (for the host country) are followed, it’s up to the op to run the pile up as he/she sees fit. If you do not like the way the op is running the show, simply qsy. But, getting on here and making such an un-called for statement about OH2BH, is simply out of line.
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RE: KY1V's DX Operating Procedures
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by W1NK on September 1, 2004
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All in all a very good article.
However, like the others, I feel the jabs at Martti were unneccessary.
One recurring theme (if you will) in the posts that caught my attention is regarding the frequency range used in split operation.
I found an interesting quote circa 1968 regarding the practice of split operation:
"Cause as little QRM as possible. Your instructions dictate where the gang will call. Announce what frequency range you are listening, but use the narrowest frequency range required to adequately separate the calling stations....Remember, there are amateurs on the band interested in ragchewing or aspects other than DXing, and **it is not in the true DX spirit to utilize any more kilocycles than are absolutely required for your operation**"
The author? Probably one of the more controversial DXers who provided many a rare spot to DXers almost 40 years ago. Don Miller, W9WNV
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N4ZW on September 1, 2004
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Just a thought: It seemed to me (as a casual observer, at least) that the impending tropical storm was on everybody's mind on Aves. Could it just be posible that after months of planning, thousands of hard-earned dollars, travel expense, etc., that these guys were just simply doing their dead-level best to work as many of us as possible? Don't know, wasn't there. But I'll bet the next round that there were more than several eyes glancing upwards and several ears listening to weather spots. At any rate, thanks to the Aves crew; thanks for the reminders on good procedure; and thanks to those that also reminded us that personal jabs should not have a place in the hobby. If we are ever going to experience ourselves again as a "gentleman's hobby," it begins with us.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K9DI on September 1, 2004
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KR4WM,
Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Patriot here. I don't know if you've noticed, but part 97 is NOT enforceable outside the territory controlled by the United States Federal Government. DX countries have their own analogues to part 97. So expecting a DX station to follow our part 97 is a "pipe dream".
Vy 73
de
Wayne K9DI
k9di (at) k9di (dot) org
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N6AJR on September 1, 2004
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BTW no mention of all the great things OH2BH has done like basically getting Albania's ham radio program back on the air, all the trips for him and the MRS. to canary etc.. Just curious how many pile ups the author has had to run..
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N6AJR on September 1, 2004
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BTW no mention of all the great things OH2BH has done like basically getting Albania's ham radio program back on the air, all the trips for him and the MRS. to canary etc.. Just curious how many pile ups the author has had to run..
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AC0H on September 1, 2004
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I didn't hear the pileup so am only going on the authors say so. A 20 Khz spread for split SSB operations is too wide by a factor of two. That's 10% of the available SSB frequencies on 20m.
I have nothing but respect for Martti Lane as a DXer and a Ham but if he endorsed using a 20 Khz spread then he was wrong. You are obligated by good amateur practice and regulation to use the minimum amount of spectrum as possible. They should have been able to handle the pileups in 10 Khz.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by MEIDELBERG on September 1, 2004
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Just looked up to find out who KY1V is. He's in Kentucky! I figured by his call he was a northeast neighbor. Hummmm, now why would I figure that? Maybe the article needs to be about proper call sign assignment. According to his web site, he is 2004 Amateur of the Year . More like .- .... --- .-.. . of the Year the way he insulted Martti.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by MEIDELBERG on September 1, 2004
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All kidding aside, I don’t care what ur call is. But, I do care about insulting my friend.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WY3X on September 1, 2004
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K9DI says:
>Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Patriot here. I don't know >if you've noticed, but part 97 is NOT enforceable >outside the territory controlled by the United States >Federal Government. DX countries have their own >analogues to part 97. So expecting a DX station to >follow our part 97 is a "pipe dream".
>Vy 73
>de
>Wayne K9DI
>k9di (at) k9di (dot) org
WB2WIK says:
>First, that's an FCC requirement, and most >DXpeditions don't fall on American soil, so the FCC >has nothing to do with them. But regardless, stations >must identify not only once every ten minutes, but at >the end of every single contact (the law >reads, "communications," but this is always >interpreted as being a contact). If you make 100 >contacts in ten minutes, that's 100 IDs.
K9DI and WB2WIK, I don't think you guys interpreted what I said properly. To quote myself: "most DXpeditions don't fall on American soil, so the FCC has nothing to do with them."
Since Part 97 is an FCC rule (nothing international about it) what I "meant" was that DX Stations don't have to follow part 97. I probably just didn't word what I said correctly...
I would think, however, that ten minute ID's may be an ITU regulation? (I'm asking- I don't know...)
-KR4WM
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NGC7789 on September 2, 2004
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>And, if he wants to casually operate from DX, then
>he, and anyone else, can do the same.
No. The repeater cops have now added DX to their
jurisdiction. You must do it their way.
I am quickly learning that the chief activity
of amateur radio is complaining about how
someone else does something. This is so...stupid.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N7WS on September 2, 2004
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Okay, let's take a poll.
All of you who have some gripe about this operation please raise your hands.
Lemme see, 1, 2, 3, 4, ........ 100.
Okay, put your hands down.
Now of those of you who just raised your hands, how many failed to actually work the operation?
1, 2, 3, 4, ......... 100.
I thought so.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W4CBL on September 2, 2004
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Oh for cryin' out loud!
Yet another self-appointed Ham Radio procedure cop out to tell all us ignorant people how to operate.
I have an Eye-Dee for you: YOU go plan a DXpedition, pay for all the expenses, travel to some God-forsaken little rock, operate, and handle as many QSO's as you can - THEN, you can dictate (and demonstrate) how it is supposed to be done.
Geeze, some of you people have an overinflated ego!
Chris W4CBL
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by YN2EJG on September 2, 2004
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It really goes both ways.
A number of years ago myself and K5LBU operated from YN2EJG. We were below 28.300 and the Stateside stations persisted on calling us out of the band. Who's got the bad operating then. The DX station has to do what he perceives as the best way to clean up the pileup before the band closes out. His goal is to give out the most qsos. Certainly 20 khz is excessive. But if he used 5 khz someone else would complain that that is excessive. If you have ever tried to copy one SSB station when 100s are calling on one frequency you know it can get pretty challenging.
ed
w5gcx
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KE4ZHN on September 2, 2004
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Tune in next week for another exciting diatribe of "How to properly turn ON your tranceiver"....followed by "How to properly turn OFF your tranceiver". The week after will feature the famous ham radio author I. P. Freely WB2PP explaining the proper procedure for keying up your microphone. I agree with Chris W4CBL...the ego meter gets pinned on a regular basis on here too many times. Why is there always someone on here trying to dictate to the masses how to operate?
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KZ1A on September 2, 2004
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I thought Marti and the rest of the YV0 ops did a great job.
Yes, the pileups were huge and frustrating. Yes, it brought out the worse in some ops. And yes, the radio cops need to go on permanent coffee and doughnut break. Their well meaning efforts can make the problem worse.
Did I work them? Not....But I almost got as much pleasure listening to the mess.
Kuddos to the YV0 team.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W6TH on September 2, 2004
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The DX operator is the net control station. He has the full control of the situation and am sure he knows the circumstances.
You do what he says, work him and then get out of the way. The DX operator is always right and I can never find any fault in any of them. A group of fine gentlemen.
.: Whiskey Six Tango Hotel
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KT0DD on September 2, 2004
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Don't forget about tuning up the full 1.5 KW properly...right in the middle of a pileup... Hi Hi..Tongue placed firmly against cheek :) 73.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AC0X on September 2, 2004
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Maybe the YV0 group could've done better, maybe they couldn't have.
But before you judge that, do this.
Think of all your worst pileups from VP5, PJ2, HI, 6Y5 and ZF.
Add them together.
Multiply by about probably, uh, lets say, five.
Think about how well you could handle THAT pileup.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NN6EE on September 2, 2004
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Speaking about the Aves Is. DX-Pedition (YV0D) it's too bad that they could'nt have planned to go there PRIOR to the darn "Hurricane season". During the time that they were on the air try as I might to work the Guys I was'nt able to, though probably IF they'd have been there a couple more days alot of us other "DESERVINGS" would have succeeded!!! But as in every other human-endeavor sometimes it's just not "In the stars!" :-)))
Jim/ee
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K3ZE on September 2, 2004
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Dave,
Sorry, Old Man, I just can't buy your tale of woe. It sounds too much like a case of sour grapes. What's the problem? Did they make more Q's than you? And if you want to be a DX pileup cop, at least recommend the use of standard phonetics.
KILO THREE ZULU ECHO
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NI0C on September 2, 2004
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KZ1A,
My hat is off to you. You demonstrate true sportsmanship and DX spirit with your post above.
73 de Chuck NI0C
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NN6EE on September 2, 2004
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I've been amazed as of late about the ARROGANCE of the European DX-operators who point their finger at the "Ugly American DX operators" as being rude and un-cooth!!! Jesus, those EUROs ought hide their own heads in shame!!! They're WORSE than any American could ever hope to be!!!
Jim/ee
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by HAMRADIODUDE on September 2, 2004
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Hey David what not just come right out and say it.
I wanna talk about me
Wanna talk about I
Wanna talk about number one
Oh my me my
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see
I like talking about you, usually, but occassionally
I wanna talk about me
I wanna talk about me
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W6TH on September 2, 2004
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David Kopacz, KY1V / VP5X
Log all those that have insults towards you and in the future should you be DX, don't come back to them and give them any recognition.
You just expressed your opinion, you are not rude, but these on this post are. Be unforgivable. No appreciation towards good will.
To me all DX operators are doing for us hams that no others will ever care to do. Kudos to you David.
.: Whiskey Six Tango Hotel
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K8NQC on September 2, 2004
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I think I will let OH2BH make the rules and let the other lesser ops follow them. Your "trick" of falsifying your log to conceal an otherwise legitimate QSO just because you do not like the operation of another amateur disqualifies you from rule making status. Amateurs enjoy the hobby for a variety of reasons in a variety of ways. As long as they follow the regulations they deserve the right to operate in many different ways. There are many tricks to getting through in difficult situations. Don't blame a guy for trying. You don't have to answer him but if you do, don't lie about the contact.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by LU1YNE on September 2, 2004
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Very nice article OM. I really enjoyed it; reading it and thinking of me on both sides, the DX station -even if I´m only a mere Argentinian I frequently have my own lil´ pile-ups-, and the simple station calling the DX one. I really agree with most of it from both different points of view. 73 & DX
EDWIN KOESSLER
-- LU1YNE --
Southern Argentina
North-Western Patagonia
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AH2AK on September 2, 2004
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Over the years I have held an Amateur Radio License I have read
many articles and letters proscribing similar "proper DX operation
procedures" As many here, I have developed a few opinions of
my own on the subject.
While I have had little experience being DX compared to some,
I have put in a few years at that game; and I have operated from
both sides of the "pile-up". I would like to submit my opinion
on the subject, drawn from many years of operating from DX
locations. These opinions are mine, although in a community
as large and diverse as the Ham Radio community I suspect
I am not alone. I've seen a few comments here that seem
similar to mine.
Here goes:
As long as I am operating within the regulations that govern
my operations... WHO THE &^#^ ARE YOU TO TELL ME
HOW TO OPERATE MY STATION???
If you know how to operate a DX station then, fine, you operate
your station that way when you are DX. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT
WHAT-SO-EVER TO TELL ME HOW TO OPEARATE MY
STATION! NONE AT ALL!!!!!
If you don't like the way I run my station, don't call me... don't
talk to me! Tune around and talk with someone else. You
have as much right to tell me how to run my station as I HAVE
TO TELL YOU HOW TO RUN YOURS!!!
When you operate from a DX location, be it rare or "semi rare",
you have people calling you just like a contest most of the time.
It becomes very, very difficult to have a "plain vanilla" QSO
because everyone you talk to is afraid to take any time because
they might be considered rude to the others trying to contact
you. Not many of us got into this hobby with the dream of
giving out contest-like reports 99% of the time. Let alone the
chore, if you choose to do your own QSL'ing, of filling out
hundreds of cards each month. It takes a lot of time and
it doesn't happen for free.
I have given out thousands of contacts for Guam and thousands
of contacts for Thailand. I know of what I speak. Yes, being
DX is fun, but it is also can be a chore and a bore.
But, back to my argument. I do not think I should always
operate in a manner to make as many QSOs per second as
I can. I demand the right to have a slow, normal chat now
and then. In fact, as often as I want. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT
TO TELL ME HOW TO RUN MY OPERATION. IF YOU DON'T
LIKE THE WAY I DO IT... GO PLAY WITH SOMEBODY ELSE!
Now, that feels good to get that off my chest.
Bruce
AH2AK
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY1V on September 3, 2004
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Thank you all for your comments and feedback, good and bad alike.
I would like to clarify a few points.
1) For those that think this article is, or was, an intentional personal attack on Marty Lane, you are so very wrong. It was not. His operating practices from YV0, however, are what stirred my emotions and prompted me to write this article.
Despite the fact that Marty Lane is somewhat of an Icon, or ambassador, of ham radio to many people, or the fact that he is popular among many hams, does not mean he is immune to criticism. None of us are, myself included.
In fact, those of you whom have criticized me for being critical of Marty's poor operating habits are nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black!
Sure you have you're right to be critical, but don't be critical of me and tell me I can't be critical of someone else. That's ludicrous!
2) Regarding my selection as 2004 Amateur of the Year, I can only say that while it is an honor, I did not ask for it. I was nominated and selected for a program I started that provides kids an opportunity to go on an expedition to operate in a major contest free of expenses.
This honor does not preclude me from having an opinion nor does it restrict my right to express my opinions.
I stand by my statement that the operating habits exhibited by the YV0 group and operations that disrupt bands in a similar manner are not required, are without justification and are simply wrong.
It is a simple fact that it is selfish operating practices and any decent operator that has successfully controlled a large pileup knows this fact. In fact, a good operator will QRT if the pileup gets out of hand.
Sure, operating split is practical and justified in some cases, but not with a 20KHz split consuming over 25KHz of a crowed band, not even for a rare DXCC entity. In fact, the more rare the entity, the worse the results.
Marty has done many great things for amateur radio, we all recognize this fact, but I will not apologize for being critical of his DX operating habits.
3) For those of you that posted negative comments about my article or myself and have done so with an anonymous ID... You're LIDS and have no backbone!
You can be critical of me all you want, but at least I am not afraid to post my comments using my own name and call sign. Be a man or be quiet.
David ~ KY1V
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W3RAZ on September 3, 2004
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Couple things....use standard phonetics especially if your the DX station and even the calling station should use standard phonetics.
A DX station taking 50 KHz of band for operating split is just bad operating. Pick out the stations on one recieve frequency and when your operating split...PLEASE ANNOUNCE WHERE YORU LISTENING! I have been tuning around and walked in on pileups and listened for 5, 10 as much as 20 minutes and not heard the DX announce he's listening 5 KHz up/down. We cannot read your mind man!
I would also like to say that you should only work split if the pileup gets out of hand. Try at first not working split and if it get's too hard, announce your moving the listening frequency 5 KHz up or down depending on how close to the band edge you are.
Calling stations should tune up just outside where they hear him to avoid QRMing the pile up.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N8UZE on September 3, 2004
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I have no problem with DX stations who want to operate as a series of ragchews rather that the quick contest-like exchange. It is their right to operate as they desire.
What does give me heartburn so to speak are those stations who do not manage their pileups, especially those who do not follow their own stated procedures. I've heard way too many who say they will operate by call zones but then pick up someone outside the zone they are working, for example a 3 when they are working 9s. This leads the people in the pile up to become extremely unruly.
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by K0RFD on September 3, 2004
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KY1V wrote:
>You can be critical of me all you want, but at least
>I am not afraid to post my comments using my own name
>and call sign. Be a man or be quiet.
When one finds one's self in a hole, the most prudent thing to do is to quit digging...
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by VERMONTHAMRADIO on September 3, 2004
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David why are you being so offensive?
Eham does not prevent registering with a user name that is not an Amateur Radio Call sign. Again you want “us” to play by “your rules”, not Ehams. Do you think that “hams” are the only ones allowed to post here??? Why is it so important “for you” to know my name? Do you have plans publicly to insult me, as you did Martti?
David, you have every right to post you opinions on Eham, but have no right to continue with the name calling, which is very childish, (LIDS, No Backbone, questioning my manhood) of those who choose to post according to the rules established by Eham, not rules as “you” wish them to be. I will politely suggest that you post an apology to Martti, and drop the attitude.
William in Vermont
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by ON4MGY on September 3, 2004
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To Jim NN6EE
You wrote "I've been amazed as of late about the ARROGANCE of the European DX-operators who point their finger at the "Ugly American DX operators" as being rude and un-cooth!!! Jesus, those EUROs ought hide their own heads in shame!!! They're WORSE than any American could ever hope to be!!! "
I would like to say it is known that a lot of European hams keep on calling their own call when a DX station is asking for another one, etc., but it is not fair to talk about THE european amateur.
There are a lot good operators, and (sadly enough) we have a bunch of bad operators. It is OK if you give some critics to the bad European operators, as you should give the same critics to bad American operators. As with everything in this world, you have good and bad ones, but it is so wrong to compare every european with another. I'm convinced there are American operators that are a lot worse then the casual European ham. Can I then say all American hams are lids? I don't think so.
73
ON4MGY Nic
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K3UD on September 3, 2004
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I live less than a mile from from David and have found him to be nothing less than a very effecient and courteous op as well as a good neighbor ham.
Sometimes we are working the same contest and he usually comes up on frequency and asks if he is causing me any problems.
While I am not a DXer in the sense that most of the posters to this thread are, I do dabble in it a bit and agree that a 20-25 kHz listening window is way over the top. I ran into this on 17 meters one evening and it wiped out almost half of the phone band.
The article was an interesting read and I certainly gained some knowledge as a result.
73
George
K3UD
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by W4AMP on September 3, 2004
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Your comment "I would have expected better from an experienced operator like Martti Lane, but I guess when you are a well known big shot you think you can do as you please, rather than do what's proper." is pathetic. Your condescending and know it all boorish tone is a joke. And fyi, you use standard phonetics PERIOD. Just because some goof is using his own phonetics does not mean you cater to him. You control the pileup, not the stations calling. Also unknown to a dx expert like yourself is id rules. DX stations are not in the US, Mr. Expert. ID rules in other entities are very different than ours. I.E., Canadaians only have to id every twenty minutes.
Martii Lane leaves more dx wisdom in the bowl after a good dump than you have in your little pointed head. He has done more for dx'ers in the US now than you will ever accomplish in your lifetime.
Let's refresh shall we:
1. You are not the dx expert you so wish you were.
2. You are so jealous of Martti Lane you have a complex.
3. When you look down IT really is that small.
Feel free to inform everyone in the world how to operate their gear in the future. We would all be lost without you.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WB2WIK on September 3, 2004
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W4AMP, that was childish and proves you really didn't read the article.
The author never mentioned anything about the DX station identifying, although I did, in a response, and then a couple of others mentioned it as well.
Regarding identification, the fact is we don't know what the requirements are for every country on the planet, and probably nobody does. ITU provides guidelines only, but individual countries make the rules in their "Part 97" equivalents.
Using the U.S. as a standard, however, what you and some others have posted is entirely incorrect. Station identification is absolutely *not* required every ten minutes, or every twenty minutes, or whatever. It is very plainly required per 97.119(a), at least when operating from American soil, with *each and every contact,* no matter what the timing between contacts is. This surely is not every ten minutes, unless it's a very boring DXpedition.
97.119(a) requires station identification "...at the end of each communications, and at least every ten minutes during a communications..." That is extremely plain. A "communications" is a contact with another party. If you make ten contacts a minute, that means an ID is required ten times, once at the end of each contact. Making a string of 100 contacts is not a communications, it's 100 of them.
That was my only point, in my earlier posting. Other countries probably do have different rules, which should be followed accordingly; but unless we inquire in advance for copies of those rules, we don't know what they are. I doubt there's any place that allows just one ID every 100 contacts, though. Maybe someone can prove me wrong on that.
Otherwise, except for the infamous "Martti" comment in the last paragraph of the article, the article was addressed not to the operators of the expeditions, but to those of us calling, and trying to work them, and I agree with most all of it.
WB2WIK/6
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by KY1V on September 3, 2004
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>>David why are you being so offensive?
I am not offensive, merely stating my opinion, of which I am passionate. Obviously, you cannot tell the difference between "passion" and "offense".
>>>Eham does not prevent registering with a user name >>>that is not an Amateur Radio Call sign. Again you >>>want “us” to play by “your rules”, not Ehams. Do >>>you think that “hams” are the only ones allowed to >>>post here??? Why is it so important “for you” to >>>know my name? Do you have plans publicly to insult >>>me, as you did Martti?
I did not insult Martti. I merely made it a point that his operating habits on YV0 were disruptive and unnecessary. Again, I would have expected better from an experienced operator such as Martti. This doesn't mean I dislike Martti, it doesn't mean that I don't respect Martti's achievements, it doesn't mean I think Martti is a bad guy...it does, however, mean that I wish Martti would be more respectful of other people using the band and not consume 30KHz of bandwidth.
I find absolutely no reason NOT to speak my mind or reference a real example. If it had been YOU on YV0 doing this, your name would have replaced Martti's.
Hopefully, some people whom practice this sort of poor pile-up management may think about what I have said and not do it themselves next time they find themselves running a pile-up. That's the whole reason for the article.
If you find that insulting...too bad. If Martti finds it insulting, then I will apologize to him personally, but I see no need to apologize to the world for my opinion. The fact remains, it was poor operating, disrespectful to the hams that were already using those frequencies and there was no justification for it.
>>David, you have every right to post you opinions on >>>Eham, but have no right to continue with the name >>>calling, which is very childish, (LIDS, No >>>Backbone, questioning my manhood) of those who >>>choose to post according to the rules established >>>by Eham, not rules as “you” wish them to be. I will >>>politely suggest that you post an apology to >>>Martti, and drop the attitude.
>>>William in Vermont
I'll go back to my previous post on this one...be a man or be quiet.
You remind me of school kids that were too meek to stand up and report a wrongdoing for fear of reprisal from bullies but instead would right anonymous notes to the teacher to report them. This is the same mentality that fosters terrorism in the world today. Countries like France and Germany, and now Spain, are scared to death of the reprisals from terrorists if they were to stand up and denounce them. What they fail to realize is that by doing this they only give the terrorist what they crave...fear.
It is no different than what's being currently practiced in our legal system. A man has a right to face his accuser, yet the liberals in our country want to change all that so that the poor accuser doesn't get victimized. Just look at the Kobe Bryant's case. Good grief, give me a break. Once this becomes commonplace the cowards of the world will accuse all of those they despise so they can lock them up without fear of reprisal.
Let me just say this...while the following people strongly disagree with me, I have much respect for them for speaking their minds without hiding behind an anonymous name...
AK2B
K0RFD
ZL2JUR
G3VGR
N6AJR
W1NK
W4CBL
KE4ZHN
KZ1A
AC0X
K8NQC
AH2AK
Now, let's examine the other side...
CW-FOREVER = WESTCOAST = VERMONTHAMRADIO = MEIDELBERG = HAMRADIODUDE = NGCTI89
Now, while there are a number of posts using real call signs, some that agree and some that do not, it is quite odd that ALL of the anonymous posts are negative.
In fact, I have gone through dozens of articles on eHam and found that the large majority of posts on eHam made by anonymous people are negative.
And you want people NOT to call you a coward? I am sorry you find that "hurtful". It doesn't surprise me.
Quite frankly, it is my opinion that the probability of an anonymous poster having 2, 3, 4 or more anonymous logins just so they can make some noise under the premise of being many is quite high. You see, people that are "cowards" are usually not in the majority and in order to look like many people share their same opinion, they must mask their identity.
Now to get back on track...the moral of the story is DON'T HOG THE BAND JU*ST BECAUSE YOU'RE ON AN EXPEDITION. Not everyone wants to work you!
Case Closed
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W4AMP on September 3, 2004
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After several hams have contacted me about my original post I thought an apology would be in order. I cannot believe that I composed that reply and missed the following:
Please change Canadaians to Canadians.
Sincerely,
W4AMP
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by YV5GRB on September 3, 2004
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Some opinions are a shame to amateur radio.
I suggest you:
1.-To get better informed
2.-Writte about politics or science ficcion!
Thank you
73 to all the readers "Enjoy radio"
Eduard Dresden (YV5GRB)
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K0RFD on September 3, 2004
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Actually, David, I didn't strongly disagree with you at all. I told you that I thought you had a great post, full of good information, but thought you could have gotten the same points across without insulting anyone.
I also suggested that you were in a bit of a hole and should maybe quit digging.
Now you've made this all about Liberals and Kobe Bryant. I don't know whether YOU have daughters or not, but certainly some fathers might not feel the same way you do. Or even see any relation to DXpeditions or managing a pileup.
As a matter of fact, you might have succeeded in offending all 3 people who weren't offended by your first and second posts. Oh well.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WILLHAVEONESOON on September 3, 2004
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KY1V my name is Jeff and don’t have my licenses yet so I didnt use a call sign for my login. Do I count?
Maybe you need to re-read what you wrote. Especially the first and last sentence. Are you blinded with jealousy of Martti? Sure does sound like it. The majority of people who responded to your article feel that you did indeed insult Martti. Since the MAJORITY of replies feel this way why do YOU BE A MAN and apologize for this. Like the other guy said your just digging that hole deeper and deeper. Get out now while you can.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by X-WB1AUW on September 3, 2004
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I’ve often wondered why ops spread a pile up over 20-50kcs? I understand it is to thin out the number of people calling on “one” frequency, so that it is easier to pick calls out of the pile-up. But, there must be other ways to accomplish the same thing? Decrease output? Attenuate the receiver? Aim away from the biggest portion of the pile up?
I remember a “channelized” approach, i.e. listening up 10, 20, and 30kcs.
One way to lower the USA pile ups used to be to only listen in the extra portions of bands.
One thing I am certain of, whatever system is used will not be perfect in everyone’s eyes.
Often, I suspect poor pile-up management indicates either a tired op, or an inexperienced op at the controls. It could be that the only way to learn how to master GIGANTIC pile ups, if one does not have the ability to be DX many times in smaller pile-ups, is through experience of being in the GIGANTIC pile-up?
73
Bob
PS: If you haven't spent a lot of time in pile-ups, you lack experience to "know" what is being talked about.
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY1V on September 3, 2004
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This jealousy idea has me perplexed. Jealous of what?
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by WIRELESS on September 3, 2004
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After reading some of this stuff in the thread, I am really glad I have other hobbies.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AH2AK on September 3, 2004
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Hey David,
This may sound a bit confusing but I don't really
disagree with your pointgs on how to run a "pile-
up". If one wants to run for numbers then, I agree, your
comments are pretty good guidelines.
My comments are that I run MY station and the way
I run it is the way I SHOULD run it. My goals may
not be the same as you think they are, or yours.
You, or anyone else, is not in any position to tell
me how I "should" run my station.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AH2AK on September 3, 2004
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My gosh... I can write better than that. Please
excuse my poor grammer in my previous posting... doing
several things at once and not paying enough attention
to any of them... I didn't give it the usual once-over
before posting. me kan relly rite gooder den dat!!!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY1V on September 3, 2004
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Bruce (AH2AK)
I agree, you should run a pile-up the way you want...but only as long as you are not disrupting other people using the frequencies you plan to use.
Everything I wrote in the original article, should be used as guidelines for "controlling" a pileup. Heck, you might not want to control your pileup! Fine, don't, but at the same time, don't let your pile-up disrupt other conversations taking place on the band.
I also agree with the guy whom wrote about rag chewing. I often will chew the fat with someone that I happen across in a pileup...and the guys waiting for a contact should respect that, after all, it is my frequency and I can talk to whom I wish for as long as I wish. In turn, if you expect to chew the fat for more than a few minutes, it would be common courtesy to let your pile-up know so they can find something else to do in the mean time. Many of them have dual receivers and can do other things while they listen for you to finish.
From VP5, I often encounter really large pileups. Some people can handle them, others struggle. I will sometimes take callers by area, district, and occasionally I will call for Africa, the Middle East or Asia and ask the rest of the world to standby while I listen for these areas. All of this works well as long as your control the pileup from the beginning. Most people respect the DX operators as long as they know what to expect. It is when the DX operator doesn't announce his call regularly, when he doesn't follow a strict set of rules and when he doesn't announce his intentions regularly that the pile-up becomes unruly.
When a pileup gets out of hand, particularly from one or two disruptive people, I will leave the frequency and call somewhere else, even on another band.
As far as the guy complaining about the tactic of working a person whom continuously calls out of turn and not log him, I have not personally done this, but I have heard other DX stations do it to get rid of the guy and as long as it doesn't cause others to start calling out of turn, it's not a bad idea. Personally, I just leave the frequency. In hindsight, I probably should have left that out of the article.
Now, back to the YV0 operation. Sure, I understand that perhaps they wanted to spread things out a bit so they could work some weaker stations, but 20Khz is unreasonable...period. There is no operator on earth that can say they listened carefully, or even asked, to see if the ALL frequencies that they were going to listen on were clear from other stations already using them before telling stations they will be listening over a 20KHz spread...it is impossible! In fact, how could they take into account changing band conditions? Those that do this are inconsiderate of those that were already there and it is inexcusable!
As a few others have commented above, a 5Khz spread is reasonable, manageable and can be reasonably checked for activity before sending thousands of hams there to transmit, AND IT IS EFFECTIVE!
Now, for those that asked me to post a public apology to Martti...how about Martti posting a public apology to the dozens of hams run off of frequencies that were already in use?
I bet the previous paragraph will bring out the anonymous posts by the bundle!
Seriously guys, enjoy your radios and have fun.
Everything else is superfluous!
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K8XF on September 4, 2004
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Excellent comments regarding the problems with dx pile-ups. Abt 10 years ago I spent some time in VQ9 and understand how it feels on the other side of the world.
What amazes me is the following:
1. Guys that constantly call you, I operated cw, dont you understand how to call a station split? Pls wait until I am finished, then call me after I say QRZ.
Guess what...the ops that are pests never get called.
I dont care if they are 20 over...and I always looked for guys that were more than 2 kc up. Get the picture?
2. Ops that call you on your freq, I would ID all the time and tell them to call 2 kc up....thats not good enuff for some people.
3. People that call on your freq and say WHATS YOUR CALLSIGN? Pls, pls, whats your problem.
4. Worked mostly Europe from VQ9 and there are definite differences between national behaviour.
I shall not tell you what I think of some Eu ops....HI.....Thats my secret....
5. The best ops for following instructions are the Japanese.....they wait until you call QRZ.And they fill out there qsls better than most Eu ops...correct time... nicely printed letters and numbers? No Klingon numbers and cockeyed upside down letters....
73
Mike, K8XF
ex VQ9MZ
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KC8VWM on September 4, 2004
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K1YV said it all,
"Seriously guys, enjoy your radios and have fun."
Simply put, If it isn't fun... it isn't Amateur Radio.
So go ahead, fire up the glowbugs, start a QSO with someone, and if you don't do everything perfect and to the letter - Oh well... No one is perfect.
Everyone has thier own set of operating standards. It is for YOU to decide what those operating standards are and how they are implemented over the air.
The true mark of a good Amateur is tolerance and in the fact that they understand and recognize these standards will vary from one person to another.
Other than using common courtesy and preventing QRM to other op's on adjacent frequencies, There really are no other specific set of protocals for enjoying yourself.
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AH2AK on September 4, 2004
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> I agree, you should run a pile-up the way you
> want...but only as long as you are not disrupting
> other people using the frequencies you plan to use.
> Everything I wrote in the original article, should
> be used as guidelines for "controlling" a pileup.
> Heck, you might not want to control your pileup! Fine,
> don't, but at the same time, don't let your pile-up
> disrupt other conversations taking place on the >band.
So you still think I can run my station as I see fit,
as long as within the rules... and as long as I do
it the way YOU want me to... Either I can run it my
way or I can't. You come down on the side of "I
can run it the way YOU want me to."
I don't tell you how to run your operation, YOU HAVE
NO RIGHT TO TELL ME HOW TO RUN MINE!
GET OUT OF MY RADIO SHACK!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by NI0C on September 4, 2004
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"20Khz is unreasonable...period."
For VP5-- yes.
For YV0-- not necessarily!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by W4AMP on September 4, 2004
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"Now, for those that asked me to post a public apology to Martti...how about Martti posting a public apology to the dozens of hams run off of frequencies that were already in use? "
How it sucks to be you....
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Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K4GLM on September 4, 2004
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David,
On your website, you give credit to God's Grace. I, too am blessed beyond what is due me!
I would like to differ with you on one point, and to offer a classic outlook on people. I would not "work" a nuisance call, then intentionally leave him out of the log. That is saying one thing and doing another in my view. It is certainly not a good way of showing a bad op a better way.
The classic outlook? "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity!"
All the best,
Stupid, but under God's Grace!
Shannon Boal K4GLM
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY1V on September 4, 2004
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K4GLM >>
Shannon,
I agree.
In fact, in a follow up post I wrote...
"As far as the guy complaining about the tactic of working a person whom continuously calls out of turn and not log him, I have not personally done this, but I have heard of other DX stations doing it to get rid of a guy and as long as it doesn't cause others to start calling out of turn, it's not a bad idea. Personally, I just leave the frequency. In hindsight, I probably should have left that out of the article."
AH2AK >>
"YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ME HOW TO RUN MINE!"
If you want me "out of your radio shack", that's simple...turn off you computer AND your radio!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by N8UZE on September 4, 2004
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Rather than "working but not logging" a nuisance station, I would think it would be much better to simply announce on the air that station xxxxx will not be worked due to his poor operating practice and state what that offending practice was. Otherwise you do run the risk of other stations following the bad example as it appeared to work for the guy. They have no way of knowing that he was "punished" by not being logged.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by KY1V on September 4, 2004
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N8UZE: That's a great idea.
Now, I would like to apologize to Martti Lane OH2BH. If you read this and you feel I offended you. I am sorry. It was not my intent.
I would like to apologize to the "anonymous" people. You have every right to post your negative views all over eHam without being called a coward, so long as eHam permits you to.
To everyone else. I am sorry if any of my opinions have offended any of you.
David ~ KY1V
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by AH2AK on September 4, 2004
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Quote KY1V
"If you want me "out of your radio shack", that's simple...turn off you computer AND your radio!"
Just can't quit telling others how to live their lives, can you? And courteous too...
Wow! Must be great to be perfect!
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by K0RFD on September 4, 2004
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David -- much better.
Now let's all kiss and make up and work some DX.
Lots of it on today.
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by W2NSF on September 6, 2004
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I amazes me how a simple post of suggested operating procedures can precipitate such an outpouring of vicious bile among fellow amateurs (including our international friends)!
If you disagree, please simply say so - it's certainly your right - but don't then lower yourself to threatening and denegrating outbursts. This is a hobby, folks; it's supposed to be fun, relaxing, etc. -- why not offer constructive solutions, if you want to advance your point of view?
Let's all step back and consider: THE AMATEUR’S CODE (Credit W9EEA, 1928)
The Radio Amateur is:
CONSIDERATE..... never knowingly operating in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.
LOYAL..... offering loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in the United States is represented nationally and internationally.
PROGRESSIVE..... with knowledge abreast of science, a well built and efficient station, and operation beyond reproach.
FRIENDLY..... with slow and patient operation when requested, friendly advice and counsel to the beginner, kindly assistance, co-operation and consideration for the interests of others -- the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.
BALANCED..... Radio is an avocation; it never interferes with duties owed to family, job, school or community.
PATRIOTIC..... with station and skills always ready for service to country and community.
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RE: Proper DX Operating Procedures
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by GM7CXM on September 6, 2004
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"Countries like France and Germany, and now Spain, are scared to death of the reprisals from terrorists if they were to stand up and denounce them."
David, I wanted to reply personally to you by email since this is a political matter. Unfortunately your email address is not published here on eham. You will have seen my earlier post regarding the radio point of view in which I generally agree with you.
However I'm afraid that in the case of Spain, you are way off the mark. Spain has been dealing with internal terrorism for over 30 years now and the problem is not just as simple as you make it sound. It's easy to say stand up to terrorists when you don't live in a town where standing up to terrorists can and in some cases does mean you will be killed. In spite of that omnipresent threat, many people do stand up to terrorism and some pay for it with their lives so that others can live in the hope of one day living a normal life.
In the case of international terrorism, you may not be aware that Spain still has a peacekeeping force present in Afghanistan. All the present socialist government did when they took their troops out of Iraq was to listen to the millions of spanish citizens who took to the streets to say, rightly or wrongly, that they didn't think that invading a foreign country was perhaps the best way to fight international terrorism.
David (or anyone else) if you want to comment I would invite you to do so by email to ea5on@ea5ol.net, to keep the posts here as radio-relevant as possible. Thank you.
73 de Duncan EA5ON / GM7CXM
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by N3DRK on September 7, 2004
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Nice article and thanks for the emphasis on the large frequency spread by YV0 operation. I have been dxing for 36 years and have never heard of a split operation operating that way. Marty or no Marty. It should not have happened. Some non Dxer's dont like split operations because it interferes with their rag chewing qso's and to have that much of a frequency spread adds fuel to the fire. We need to respect others on the band and I hope it doesnt occur again. It is poor operating practice to say the least and creates huge amounts of unnecessary qrm to dxers and non dxers alike. It also puts a strain on the dxer trying to search for the station being worked. That is one area the dxpeditions need to get right in the future. There is just no excuse for that oversight or improper operating procedure.
73's
john
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by KI6LO on September 9, 2004
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Great article! I tried to get to YV0 several times before they had to QRT and never could. Not that I blame my failure to QSO with YV0 on any particular issue, but I did observe (as you mention) many of the stateside hams refusing to follow the flow directed by the DX op. Too were the ever present 'frquency police' trying to enforce the 'law' of the airwaves. I wonder where they actually got their commissions as 'frequency police officers' and do they actually have a badge?????
In other DX QSOs I have listened to, I have been amazed when a DX op is working a big pileup, giving basically call and report as fast as he can transmit and some joker decides that not only is he going to give his call and the DX signal report, but that the DX station somehow desires to know what rig and antenna the joker is using and what the weather is like at the joker's QTH. It is like the joker is trying to hold a ragchew QSO with the DX op in the middle of a pileup. Now that is the sign of a premier top-notch LID!!!!!
It was just too bad that YV0 had to pull the plug early due to weather. I might have actually found a hole and gotten in!! Thank God the frequency police were on scene to handle the kaos!!!!
73 Gene KI6LO
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