Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
from
KC2NEK
on
September 17, 2004
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I had an idea of putting a FRS, GMRS or 70cm simplex repeater in a small UAV. So I did some research on the Internet, but I couldn't find anyone who had done it. I could find UAVs and electronics to make your own, but they were so expensive http://www.micropilot.com/ .
I did find amateur radio groups that attached repeaters to weather balloons. The balloons normally go up 90000 ft. and then burst. The problem with a balloon is that the whole process of take off and landing can't take too long otherwise the balloon drifts off too far. The balloons normally only stay up in the air for three hours and during that time they drift off miles away. (I didn't do too much research on the drifting away).
Electronics:
I was thinking of using a basic stamp from Parallax and a Garmen eTrex.
Plane:
It should be electric, for multiple reasons 1. It is ease to maintain. 2. Gas powered motors won't work very well at high altitudes. I guess it would be a motor glider and it has to be self-stabilizing. It can be solar electric with batteries or just battery powered.
The Plan:
Stage 1: Develop a working autonomous control system and put it in a small RC plane. The plane does not have to carry the radio repeater and it doesn't have to take off and land by itself.
Stage 2: Make a plane that can carry the radio repeater and that can stay in the air for at least 3 hours. It doesn't have to take off and land by itself.
Stage 3: The plane should stay up in the air for longer than 3 hours. And if it is possible, have the plane take off and land by itself.
The electronics of the plane should cost less than $2000 otherwise you could just buy a working product from micropilot. You can discuss my idea in my UAV forum.
I wrote this a couple months ago and since then I changed my mind about a few things, but you can get the basic idea.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by LNXAUTHOR on September 17, 2004
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- reads like a fun idea! too bad the UAV forum doesn't include the USCG and Border Patrol (Customs); they've been using UAVs, tethered balloons, and perhaps a suitable alternative, blimps, for quite some time...
- there are a few sites offering recreational blimps... here's one with shots of prototypes:
http://www.personalblimp.com/images.html
- here's a link to some commercial models:
http://www.advertisingballoons.com/remote-control-blimps.htm
- a blimp repeater would be kinda neat, and might help overcome any station-keeping, flight time and load problems...
- but you'd also have to keep an eye on the weather?
:-)
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KG4RUL on September 17, 2004
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If you can build reliable electronics, that do all the things you specified, for $2000, I suspect that someone like Boeing will be beating your door down.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by JN3XCV on September 17, 2004
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It will not be 'inexpensive'!
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) will lead the advisory committee that will set key standards for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) flying in U.S. airspace.
"We volunteered for this job because we want to make sure that these unmanned aircraft don't have an impact on our members, literally and figuratively," said Andy Cebula, AOPA senior vice president of Government and Technical Affairs. "Before UAVs are ever released into general airspace, they'll have to be able to do what a pilot in a Cessna 172 does — see and avoid other aircraft, operate within the confines of today's ATC system, and operate without special conditions or special services such as being able to deal with emergencies without endangering other aircraft."
AOPA has accepted the role as co-chair of RTCA's Special Committee 203, which will in essence write the UAV certification standards. RTCA is a private, not-for-profit membership organization that functions as a Federal Advisory Committee. RTCA advisory committees bring together government, industry, and academic experts to develop recommendations to be used by the FAA and the aviation community.
UAV operations in the U.S. are currently very limited. The drones fly within special-use airspace, either restricted areas or military operations areas. Outside of such airspace, UAV operations must have a "Certificate of Authorization" approved by both the air traffic and flight standards branches of the FAA. The operations have to be conducted within strict parameters, including using chase planes and/or ground spotters to monitor their activity.
AOPA has consistently advocated that UAVs must be as safe as piloted aircraft (See "No UAV close encounters.")
"Currently there are no UAVs or UAV pilots certified by the FAA," said Randy Kenagy, AOPA senior director of advanced technology and co-chairman of the UAV advisory committee.
"There's no doubt that UAVs are coming, and there is increased pressure on the FAA to approve their operation in the system. It is critical that these unmanned aircraft do not endanger other aircraft or result in restricting airspace. We will develop consensus standards involving both the UAV community and existing airspace users," said Kenagy.
There are some tough hurdles to jump before UAVs can share our airspace.
"Consider operating from a public-use airport," said Kenagy. "The UAV not only will have to 'detect and avoid' other aircraft, it will have to fit into the traffic pattern and communicate its intentions to other pilots."
Then consider emergencies. Some plans call for UAVs to fly at very high altitudes, well above general aviation and commercial airline operations. But what happens if there is an engine failure, and the aircraft has to descend through civilian traffic?
"Our benchmark for the standards will be a piloted vehicle operating VFR," said Kenagy. "Only when a UAV can fit into the system with the same level of safety will it be ready to share our airspace."
August 9, 2004
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by JN3XCV on September 17, 2004
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You will also need to petition for the creation of special use airspace from the FAA to fly your UAV
AOPA to protect member interests on UAV certification panel
AOPA will lead the advisory committee that will set key standards for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) flying in U.S. airspace.
"We volunteered for this job because we want to make sure that these unmanned aircraft don't have an impact on our members, literally and figuratively," said Andy Cebula, AOPA senior vice president of Government and Technical Affairs. "Before UAVs are ever released into general airspace, they'll have to be able to do what a pilot in a Cessna 172 does — see and avoid other aircraft, operate within the confines of today's ATC system, and operate without special conditions or special services such as being able to deal with emergencies without endangering other aircraft."
AOPA has accepted the role as co-chair of RTCA's Special Committee 203, which will in essence write the UAV certification standards. RTCA is a private, not-for-profit membership organization that functions as a Federal Advisory Committee. RTCA advisory committees bring together government, industry, and academic experts to develop recommendations to be used by the FAA and the aviation community.
UAV operations in the U.S. are currently very limited. The drones fly within special-use airspace, either restricted areas or military operations areas. Outside of such airspace, UAV operations must have a "Certificate of Authorization" approved by both the air traffic and flight standards branches of the FAA. The operations have to be conducted within strict parameters, including using chase planes and/or ground spotters to monitor their activity.
AOPA has consistently advocated that UAVs must be as safe as piloted aircraft (See "No UAV close encounters.")
"Currently there are no UAVs or UAV pilots certified by the FAA," said Randy Kenagy, AOPA senior director of advanced technology and co-chairman of the UAV advisory committee.
"There's no doubt that UAVs are coming, and there is increased pressure on the FAA to approve their operation in the system. It is critical that these unmanned aircraft do not endanger other aircraft or result in restricting airspace. We will develop consensus standards involving both the UAV community and existing airspace users," said Kenagy.
There are some tough hurdles to jump before UAVs can share our airspace.
"Consider operating from a public-use airport," said Kenagy. "The UAV not only will have to 'detect and avoid' other aircraft, it will have to fit into the traffic pattern and communicate its intentions to other pilots."
Then consider emergencies. Some plans call for UAVs to fly at very high altitudes, well above general aviation and commercial airline operations. But what happens if there is an engine failure, and the aircraft has to descend through civilian traffic?
"Our benchmark for the standards will be a piloted vehicle operating VFR," said Kenagy. "Only when a UAV can fit into the system with the same level of safety will it be ready to share our airspace."
August 9, 2004
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KC2NEK on September 17, 2004
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R/C pilots don't have to petition for the creation of special use airspace from the FAA to fly their R/C planes. A lot of people use stabilizers and altitude holders. The "UAV" would only have one added function and that would be flying to gps way points.
I would most likely still be able to see the plane flying. It would just have cruse control switched on. :-).
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB9YNB on September 17, 2004
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http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/spec.htm
The link above is to a completely autonomous balloon launched glider. You might contact this guy to see if he has any useful links or resources for you.
KB9YNB
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by W2DUG on September 17, 2004
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Thank you, JN3XCV, for providing the definition of "UAV". The original poster broke the first rule of using abbreviations in an article: always define the abbreviation right away so the reader knows what you are talking about, particularly when it is an abbreviation that is not commonly encountered within the context of the forum and target audience, such as in this case. (Sorry for the lecture, but this is a writing bugaboo of mine...) Once I knew what a UAV is, it seems like an intriguing topic. What sort of interesting applications do you see this type of repeater used for? Emergencies? Special events? Contests? Or just for fun?
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB1GMX on September 17, 2004
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As both a pilot, R/C hobbiest and engineer the idea is poorly thought out. Even a near miss by a small plane flying above it by a few hundred feet can cause significant turbulance, enough to cause an inflight upset greater than the usual R/C inertial stabilizer can recover from. I know I've seen a small plane get killed by the wingtip votex from a C150 (two seat Cessna trainer) passing over 400feet higher on LI once.
Nominally R/C craft are flown well below 1000ft AGL (above ground level) and this usually keeps them from mixing with real aircraft. Once you go above that it's a risk. Also FAA rules are that above a 10,000ft AGL you are in positive control airspace and required to be in commucication with ATC to insure that your actions do not pose a hazard.
First electric flight while easy to maintain tends to be payload poor, 8ounces (by weight) of fuel carries more energy for its weight than the best rechargeable battery. It will also have to be able to cruse at better than 30MPH and able to make at least 50MPH as winds aloft (above 3000ft) are typically above 15KTS and can easly be over 35Kts(~40mph) at least here in north east USA. To run even a 1W transceiver you need more power than that due to circuit inefficientcies and to do that for any decent amount of time (say hours) means a large battery.
Flight control, you will need manual control for launch and landing (non-LTA) and then it must take up a
position holding pattern that does not drift with the wind (to be useful in a given area). That implies a navigation system to know where it is (GPS) and flight control system sufficient to both insure stability as well as turn it to stay at some approximate point. That means a 4axis control, flight surfaces plus engine speed for fuel conservation.
While possible for a hobbiest to do this it's far more effort than the trivial plan proposed. Powered flight is the most difficult of the possible routes to follow.
A tethered LTA (balloon or baby blimp) can easily do this to altitudes of several hundred feet and would be less expensive (except for the helium) plus easier to reel in and deploy multiple times making it a good test bed for the radio systems.
A simplex repeter is a limited device and a better one could be a cross band repeater.
A different approach could be to use a digipeter and use it with a tethered balloon that can be quickly deployed in radio poor (or mountains) areas for repeating APRS packets for sporting event or search operations (see QST/QEX)where VHF does not propagate well.
Allison
KB1GMX
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KC2NEK on September 17, 2004
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I am sorry for my not well thought out plan. I had this idea a couple months ago. I didn't take the time to post it back then. I stopped thinking about it, because a. I don't have experience in doing any of the things I proposed and b. there is no way that I would be able to afford any of this. I just thought that other people might like to think about the idea.
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by AJ3U on September 17, 2004
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If you are an AMA member, note that the rules changed effective 1/1/2004 which forbids the use of autonomous flight systems in R/C aircraft. It doesn't mean that you can't still do it, but if your aircraft is involved in an accident, your AMA liability insurance will not cover you and you will be personally liable for any damage.
We have a member of our flying club that had an autonomous flight control system. He would program it to fly to his house and back. He would take off, "hit the switch" and drive to his house a couple of miles away. Sure enough the plane would fly there, do some circuits, and then fly back to the flying field as programmed. He had to stop flying it in 2004 when the rules changed.
BTW, I think it is a neat idea. I have been thinking about the same thing myself, just not autonomous due to the insurance problem.
73!
A.J. Farmer, AJ3U
http://www.aj3u.com
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by K0RGR on September 17, 2004
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I think there would be a lot of interesting possibilities for an intelligent automated dirigible of small size. Have you ever heard of the "Superlifter" project of a few years ago? It was a manned dirigible that was going to use a lighter-than-air dirigible to neutralize the weight of 4 jet engines, which would then be used to lift and fly huge payloads. The project eventually failed because they could not sync the engines well enough, but it was a great concept. A smaller one, using electric fans, might work.
I think it would be much easier to operate it below 1000 feet AGL than to try to operate high enough to stay out of commercial and military airspace. Even there, you have to consider low-flying aircraft like crop dusters and helicopters, so a 'see and avoid' mechanism is needed, along with cooperative notices to airmen about the operations. The vehicle would have to be equipped with FAA-approved strobe lights.
The vehicle could be equipped with a mechanism that would cause it to rapidly move out of the way if someone transmits on a given aircraft frequency.
While we're on the subject of safety - safety engineering will be the biggest challenge with this project. You've got to replace the human brain with some completely failsafe mechanisms that can land this thing safely under all conditions. That will be an interesting problem. Remember - I said failsafe - if it is hit by lightning which fries the computer, we can't have it fall out of the sky, or drift up into the path of an airliner.
I wouldn't give up on the idea.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by W5GNB on September 17, 2004
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This is a very interesting post, Actually, I have done what the author has proposed on several occasions. My most successful being to use a large Hobby Lobby telemaster gas powered airplane. the plane was built to carry about a 10 pound payload and using a 40 size engine. This plane is a good choice because it will serve as a thermal glider once the engine is shut down. I have remained airborn four up to six hours with this plane.
The repeater that I designed was actually a cross band (2-meter/440) so that I would not have to use a duplexer or have intermod problems. I used a pair of Alinco Dj-S series radios operating in a modified repeater arrangement with two meters uplink and 440 downlink.
At the altitude of approximately 300 feet, coverage was good for about 150 miles here in New Mexico between normal ground stations. I simply would fly the plane in a large circular motion riding on thermals after the engine was shut down.
I have also mounted TV cameras and transmitters in the plane and had a lot of fun with that.
I think the term "UAV" here is not quite applicabile to the hobby of R/C aircraft, this is a hobby, not a Military survaliance operation.
One other thing, according to the Antiquated FCC rules, you MUST have a way to identify your Repeater so you will have to use some sort of CW or other id onboard the plane. I used a little timer with an PicoKeyer, that worked great!
73's and Happy Flying/Hamming!
Gary - W5GNB
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by W0FM on September 17, 2004
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KB1GMX....
What is an "LTA"?
Terry, WØFM
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by W2DUG on September 17, 2004
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> KB1GMX....
>
> What is an "LTA"?
>
> Terry, WØFM
See? It's annoying, isn't it?
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KT0DD on September 17, 2004
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" Lighter Than Air" or "Long Term Assesment"....
I'm so confused! :) 73
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by K3TIN on September 17, 2004
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Allison, KB1GMX,
Just a minor point/clarification.
Actually the PCA (Postive Control Airspace) in the U.S. begins at FL 180 (18,000 feet when usable).
Below that altitude, presuming VFR (Visual Flight Conditions) exist, you may fly unfettered virtually anywhere you wish (Except for Special Use Airspace, which can apply at ANY altitude) and you DO NOT have to be in contact with ATC.
No biggie, just a minor point. Otherwise EXCELLENT response!
73,
de Larry
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB1GMX on September 17, 2004
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LTA = Lighter Than Air
Free balloons, blimps, dirgibles are LTAs.
Allison
Kb1gmx
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Field Day Application of RC Model Airplane Repeat?
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by N3NL on September 17, 2004
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It is interesting to see that W5GNB has already done
this type of application using RC model airplane
technology operating at model airplane altitudes
(under 1000 feet). This sounds like a lot of fun that
is compatible with the RC model airplane rules.
Would the ARRL view such a set up as an allowable
Field Day station? Using such a "tall tower" you
could really make a lot of VHF contacts.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB1GMX on September 17, 2004
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Ah roger... ;)
I fly a C150 and I can remember only once being over 9500ft so PCA and all frequently gets munged with O2 above 10k. That and brain finger disconnect. ;)
Actually the tethered LTA is the best bet and the most doable. With altitude of say 400ft it's not too much of a flight hazard and the coverage can be very good.
Allison
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by W5EEX on September 17, 2004
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Check out Arizona Near Space Research at
http://www.ansr.org/html/index.php
This group does regular LTA balloon launches and they include repeaters as well as telemetry equipment.
73,
John
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KC2NEK on September 17, 2004
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I've never even flown a R/C plane. Only control line.
So I don't belong to AMA. I am 15 years old. I don't own a r/c plane or gps, I don't know how to program basic stamps and I just got my call sign in July.
this was just an idea that came up when I was trying to find a way to extend the rang on my FRS radio.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by G0GQK on September 17, 2004
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I have never in my life ever heard of a UAV, what is it ? A complicated set of letters for a model aircraft ?
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by N3NL on September 17, 2004
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Hello KC2NEK,
Welcome to ham radio. You are progressing fast
considering you just got your ticket in July.
Keep developing new ideas and trying them out. That
is one of the really fun parts of ham radio.
Not all attempted inventions work out, but the
process of trying to invent things is a lot of fun
in itself.
Also, model airplanes and ham radio is a good combination. Some hams have been flying radio
control airplanes with
ham television cameras on board. This makes for a
very interesting flying experience. Your flying
repeater idea is a good idea too.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL n3nl@arrl.net
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on September 17, 2004
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Isn't there a height limit on how high an antenna can go... wouldn't this UAV just be anopther form of antenna
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB2FCV on September 17, 2004
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I would think a tethered blimp is the best way to setup a repeater. It would be far more stationairy since that's what you'd want anyways. There are quite a few r/c blimps out there on the market that might handle this task.
A plane has alot more factors involved. First, you have to know how to fly. It took me a while to learn. Then, as others have said, there are many factors to consider that will make the project very complicated. I don't think you need movement in a repeater. How would anyone know where to point their beam?
It sounds like a cool though! Using a blimp, it might just be possible to pull it off.
There was a group of r/c enthusiats who actually sent a gas powered r/c plane across the atlantic and had it meet them in europe! (well, there were a few lost in previous attempts). Here's a link.. http://tam.plannet21.com/
73,
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB1GMX on September 17, 2004
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KC2NEK,
Keep the idea machine alive. Sure there are implmentation problems but, that's life. Someday
an idea like that or others will be more important than you can imagine.
The side effect is a bunch of good ideas resulted
that can work and be useful.
The best way to get more range is 2m or 70cm(440mhz) repeater and get all your friends and kin to be hams.
Allison
Kb1gmx
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KB1GMX on September 17, 2004
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There is no limit to antenna height other than practical ones.
We have AO51(EHCO), AO27 and ISS as orbiting repeaters.
So we know they work in space. ;)
Allison
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KE4ZHN on September 17, 2004
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As an RC pilot myself, I would think making a flying repeater using a gas or electric powered plane is impractical. A tethered ballon like a weather ballon would be perfect for this. However, you have to make sure its not so high as to present a hazard to aviation and your not flying this thing in an approach path to any local airports. The FAA would let you know about it in a hurry!
You also would be limited by wind conditions as the balloon would drift badly in high winds. While this isnt really a major problem, it would be if your flying repeater got blown into some high trees and tangled up. Or worse yet....high tension lines! A simple dualbander with crossband repeat function and a gel cell battery would fill the bill for a good temporary flying repeater. Also keep in mind, if you use a frequency pair of another repeater you may not be able to hear at ground level, this can cause qrm to a machine maybe 100 miles away or more depending on how high you fly this thing. Setting up a tethered balloon wouldnt be very expensive and takes no special skill to fly.
A fellow amateur and I fly RC with onboard video cameras mounted to the planes and we have shot some very cool video doing this. Its amazing what you see from the aircrafts perspective at several hundred feet up. Our downlink receiver is fed into a laptop computer and the received video is preserved as mpeg files. I read online about some 160 mtr. dxers who fly tethered ballons to support vertical wires for terrific 160 dxing thats not possible with low antennas. Good luck on your flying repeater.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KD5NOI on September 17, 2004
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this should be easy. just put a small ht with cross band repeat (I'm sure there are some out there) and the nessicary keyer and timer for Id purposes in a seinior telemaster with extra fuel tanks and enjoy. I don't know about it staying up for 3 hours but you can probably put enough fuel in one to get it to stay aloft for one hour, and with its light wing loading it should be able to glide for a while also even with the added weight.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KD5NOI on September 17, 2004
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this should be easy. just put a small ht with cross band repeat (I'm sure there are some out there) and the nessicary keyer and timer for Id purposes in a seinior telemaster with extra fuel tanks and enjoy. I don't know about it staying up for 3 hours but you can probably put enough fuel in one to get it to stay aloft for one hour, and with its light wing loading it should be able to glide for a while also even with the added weight.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by N8BOA on September 17, 2004
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KISS put up a kite or better a tethered blimp. The CIA has a TV station they run for the Cubans from Key west Fla That thing goes right up through the clouds.
N8BOA
Sean
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by AD5GX on September 18, 2004
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No one has said it can't be done. I've seen many references to hurdles that would have to be overcome.
Do this in stages. First, learn how to get a beacon to work from an RC a/c under positive control. Then get a cross/band ht to work under the same conditions.
All the time, learn the appropriate regulations and understand how to comply (ask questions!). You've got a good start here on knowing some of the issues (you can overcome each of them).
You've got the ham license, now start learning to fly an R/C plane.
There are some handy tools out there already--an inexpensive autopilot exists. It is manufactured by FMA direct. The basic version keeps the a/c straight and level via a computer hooked up between the servos and a infra-red sensor that detects the horizon.
A more advanced autopilot will fly a pre-programmed pattern if it loses the control signal (it can even tell your transmitter from another one if someone indavertantly turns on a transmitter on your frequency).
Inexpensive technology exists to do what you want to do. The biggest task will be overcoming the regulatory hurdles (and those regulations are mainly saftey related--Federal Aviation Regulations are largely written in blood--I wouldn't advise shortcuts in that arena).
73!
AD5GX
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by NJ2E on September 18, 2004
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I would suggest you go to www.faa.gov and review Advisory Circular 91.57 about operation of model aircraft and if you decide to go the ballon route check FAR 101 about ballons and kites. That should give an idea about the limitations. 73s Don
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KD7MIR on September 18, 2004
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I found this topic to be very interesting. I have often thought of using a Baloon to carry an antenna into the air, but I had never thought about using it to carry a repeater up.
I don't think the idea is too far fetched. I was recently reading an article that an Austalian had written about using a model helicopter. He uses it to take professional photographs for his business. To be able to line the shots up He also installed a 2.4ghz video transmitter. The more I think about this idea the more I like it.
A friend of mine (KI6V), had some thoughts awile back about using an ATV equiped model plane that could be remotely piloted from the video feed and the "handed off" to another ham who could pilot after it got out of range for the first ham.
ANyway, very interesting topic, and I'm sorry one of your first experiences on eham had to be being told it couldn't work. Keep up the good ideas. Maybe it could work at lower levels >18000 is still a pretty tall repeater!!
73's BJ KD7MIR
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by WB9JVM on September 20, 2004
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You should most definitely checkout this site!!
http://rctoys.com/
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KG4RUL on September 21, 2004
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I don't believe that anyone is making a concious effort to discourage. What was done here was to point out that this is not a trivial project to undertake and, has some significant potential for causing harm if not done according to the rules.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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RE: Inexpensive R/C A/C Carrying Radio Repeater
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by N2LJD on September 21, 2004
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Go for it!
Here in New York's Catskills, such a project would help on our public service events, especially when several volunteers are scattered and mobile and only have low-wattage HTs. The tethered balloon would be best for what I'm thinking of, but an R/C model aircraft that could zoom from one stage of an event to another would be even better (assuming the fuel endurance problem can be solved).
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
73
Joe
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by VE7VIE on September 23, 2004
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Does anyone know of anyone who has done this? I am interested in using it for APRS support for ultramarathon cycling events which go 100's of miles off into the 'boonies'.
73, Barry
VE7VIE/KD7IGX
"A different approach could be to use a digipeter and use it with a tethered balloon that can be quickly deployed in radio poor (or mountains) areas for repeating APRS packets for sporting event or search operations (see QST/QEX)where VHF does not propagate well. "
Allison
KB1GMX
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by N8RDT on September 24, 2004
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Hello,
Just so happens, I'm an Aerospace and Mechanical Engineer and build payloads for UAVs for a research group at West Virginia University. Currently our main research is in autonomous formation flight using 3 YF-22 jets that are about 6.5 ft span and 10 ft long. I can tell you some things and some things I can't but I can tell you that we have over $35,000 worth of electronics onboard each aircraft to make this autonomous flight work. It is also capable of waypoint navigation and pretty much anything you can think of. We are NOT capable of automatic take off and landing and there are not many UAVs capable of this. This requires either alot of ground equipment or alot of equipment in the plane using either laser distance judgement or ultrasonic transmitters and receivers to judge the distance to the ground. GPS is obviously not accurate enought to do this job. We also use special GPS units capabale of 20Hz operation, instead of the .5 or 1 Hz operation of the common Garmin, etc. What you propose is an interesting thing which I could do in about 1 day, but the 50-60 grand price tag on the equipment to do this is not feasible. I suggest you stick to using the satellites if you want a repeater in the air. Also, we have MAJOR problems with EMI issues related to carrying a 800 MHz processor next to a R/C receiver. I have fought EMI for 3 years on this project and it still comes back to haunt every now and then. So, if you would like more info on these things as far as the exact type of computer equipment we use for the flight controls, the basic scheme of the system, or anything else, I can help out,(except for giving up software, of course), just beware that what you want to do is extremely expensive and requires lots of time and dedication. Our project is sponsored by the Air Force so thats encouragement enough to get thing done! Hope this helps.
Larry Rowe
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by AE6IP on September 25, 2004
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It is true that if you're trying to fly combat jets autonomously, you can spend a lot on electronics.
However, the total cost of equipment for the model airplane that flew autonomously across the atlantic ocean was a lot less.
Scale matters.
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Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KE7BPQ on September 27, 2004
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A MOST interesting idea!
As a pilot, ham, engineering technician, and major LTA fanatic, your idea has a great deal of merit. I recently read on the net about a British group that was attempting to loft a number of repeaters via autonomous blimp that would serve as wireless links to the Internet.
I have to agree with the guys that suggest an aerostatic platform would probably be better suited for the application you have in mind. If it is tethered, you only have to add lifting gas from time to time. If it were automatically or remotely piloted, your loiter time aloft as well as your payload would be considerably increased per unit of energy expended, be it petroleum or electrically sourced. (LTA is FAAAN-tastic for "heavy" lift!)
Along that line, might I advance a notion that some might find anethematic, but one that I feel is viable and applicable - instead of using helium for lift, how about hydrogen? Since this is not a man-rated vehicle, human safety concerns are much diminished; per unit volume of lifting gas, you'll get about 10% more lift, hydrogen is readily generated locally by a number of means, quite a bit cheaper than helium, and you can (Carefully! Outside!) generate it yourself.
One method that comes to mind is a very simple one - not the cheapest, but one I personally have used for lofting a long-wire antenna. Aluminum (used foil, cans, bakery trays, etc.) when immersed in a strong Sodium Hydroxide solution (I used Red Devil Drain Cleaner - pure NaOH aka Lye) releases a great deal of hydrogen. It also releases quite a bit of heat. I utilized a 2-liter soda bottle as a vessel that I stuffed some shredded aluminum consumer products into, then used a funnel (while wearing a face shield, long sleeves, rubber gloves and a rubber apron. This stuff is NASTY!) and a GLASS measuring cup to intoduce the lye. Once I had the lye in, I slipped a large party balloon over the neck and let the chemicals do their work. Sure enough, the balloon inflated in about 5 minutes, and it was definitely buoyant! I was able to fill about six balloons using this method which I tied to a copper wire (Rat Shack) and up it went - but not all the way. Remember the heat that I mentioned? You'll get a lot of steam as well as hydrogen. As the balloons cooled, they lost buoyancy and my long-wire looked more like a catenary with every passing moment.
I tried a water bath, in the form of a 5-gallon bucket, in which I submerged the generating vessel. It DID help, but I still got some pretty warm gas. I did not take it any further, but imagine that if I were to run some tubing off of the top of the generating vessel into a direct-contact heat exchanger, i.e. a 5-gallon water jug with a stopper, gozinta and gozoutta lines (check out the winemakers shops) the H2 would be cool and pretty pure.
By the way, this method was not my own devising - it was used in WWII by Air Corps Meteorologists in the South Pacific (Places like Guadalcanal, etc.). They would take pieces of wrecked aircraft (shot-up panels, and so forth), toss them into a 55 gallon drum of lye, clamp down the lid, attatch the WX balloon, inflate it, and UP UP and AWAY!
Keep us posted on your progress, and success to you!
Lynn McGiboney
KE7BPQ
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KC8VWM on September 29, 2004
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I love this idea!! I enjoyed reading about it!
Charles - KC8VWM
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by AE6IP on September 30, 2004
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Lye, huh?
Maybe I'll ressurect my idea about flying a dipole between two teathered balloons...
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by KC2NEK on October 4, 2004
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Maybe it would be sufficient to just have a R/C plane equipped with a repeater (simplex or crossband or ...), ATV and flight stabilizing gear (FMA copilot and a altitude holder). This could be done for less than $2000. Maybe it would be better to have a powered paraglider, this would be easier to fly, but airtime wouldn't be as good. The idea would be to make a product that one could sell to amateur radio groups for emergency use. It has to be ease to use and maintain, so I think that using a powered paraglider would be a good idea. Would anyone want to work on something like this with me? Maybe I could organize an echolink conference, is anyone interested?
KC2NEK
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RE: Inexpensive UAV Carrying Radio Repeater
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by ODYSSIAN on March 4, 2005
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I have a small business that is involved in developing technology associated with the integration of electronics, sensors, antenna, etc. into structure. We are interested in integrating an antenna into a small unmanned airplane to demonstrate com relay (repeater) for the USAF. Due to FCC regulations and logistic issues, we plan to conduct our initial demonstration using the 2M and 10M bands. We are interested in talking with people who can assist. Of immediate interest is locating a small lightweight (1 lb or less) repeater that is commercially available.
Please call or write if you are interested or have advice on the location of hardware.
Best regards,
Barton Bennett
ODYSSIAN TECHNOLOGY
(574) 257-7555 - Office Phone
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