EchoLink and Beyond
Bill Richardson (NG1P)
on
September 19, 2004
View comments about this article!
First the age old question is EchoLink Ham Radio?
Looking at the following story in the Feb 2003 QST, it
tries to answer that question.
http://www.arrl.org/qst/2003/02/VoIP.pdf
It all boils down to how you define Ham Radio. With
that in mind you would have to ask yourself are the
following Ham Radio:
Ham operator?
Morse code key?
Antenna?
TNC?
Computer?
Microphone?
Speaker?
Transceiver?
EchoLink?
Ham Radio is the act of communicating by using a
combination of the above to produce an RF signal
as governed by Law (The FCC part 97 in the U.S).
Clearly EchoLink (VoiP Systems) are being used as
a direct part of this communications process to
produce RF signals as governed by Law.
To take this to the next level I think Ed Mitchell,
KF7VY, publisher, Ham Radio Online said it best in his
Opinion: (Amateur Radio Has Lost Its Uniqueness)
http://www.hamradio-online.com/1999/mar/unique.html
Ed, KF7VY, states in part the following:
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We Must Redefine Ourselves
Amateur Radio needs to bring itself in line with the
contemporary world. We must not define Amateur Radio
of the 21st century in terms of what used to make us
unique. Instead, we need to re-invigorate our service
with innovation in technology and operations - and
make ourselves relevant in a world awash in
communications. There are many innovative
communications technologies - many invented by hams -
but their use is not widely adopted within the amateur
service. We stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that
today there are better ways to accomplish traditional
tasks.
Instead of settling for the status quo, stretch
yourself!
Be creative in applying innovative solutions to
today's problems. Set yourself high goals and strive
to meet them. Instead of settling for 40 messages
during your next ARES drill, set a goal of 1,000 - and
see what creative solutions your team develops to meet
the challenge.
Look for ways to improve productivity, efficiency and
reliability. Don't settle for the status quo -
constantly look for and implement ways to improve your
procedures.
Introduce new technology. Experiment with how image
communications, or wireless data or even a new
invention - can improve your services and skills.
When was the last time you tried a new operating mode
or technology? When was the last time you varied your
procedures? What steps have you taken to improve the
reliability of your public service communications
team?
Amateur experimentation is alive and well, contrary to
widespread rumors. There are many research projects
underway right now. I am aware of projects in areas
like high speed digital communications including data
networks, digital voice and digital television,
high-speed computer generated CW for meteor scatter,
satellite communications, and extraordinary weak
signal work being done by hams in the Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence. We forget that it is
only within the past few years that Amateur Radio
enthusiasts invented AX.25, CLOVER, PSK-31, "packet
cluster" applications, the Automatic Packet Reporting
System and "micro-satellites" - each of which has
migrated to commercial applications. We Must Obsolete Ourselves and Recreate Our Uniqueness
Our uniqueness has been reduced to a commodity
available to everyone.
If we do not focus our service on attributes that
meaningfully distinguish us from the rest of the
crowd, then we may not remain viable. We must dispense
with dated traditions and regulations (see
footnote[4]) and innovate with new procedures and
techniques. If we do not, then we are failing to serve
the public and the public will demand our spectrum
allocations for other uses. Rather than cling to old
traditions, we must "obsolete" ourselves and recognize
that our little world cannot remain unchanged in the
21st century. Or, we can let the rest of the world
make us obsolete (our traditions will no longer matter
if Amateur Radio no longer exists). We must embrace
dynamic change, not retreat and hide behind our pride
of past accomplishments.
Each of us can contribute by trying something new and
adopting change and innovations in our everyday
Amateur operations. National Amateur Radio
organizations must embrace change and adopt
forward-looking policies and visions for the 21st
century. National leadership must be truly committed
and supportive of re-aligning Amateur Radio to the
realities of the 21st century.
Summary:
When the market tells us we are no longer important,
we make excuses about poor sunspots causing a lack of
interest and then blame the Internet and cellular
phones. But the problem is us -- we are steadfastly
unchanging in a world that rockets by. Its time to
steer the conversation back to "our customer" -- the
general public -- and ensure that everything we do is
geared towards serving the public with a robust,
modern and efficient Amateur Radio Service. If we do
not focus on the public's requirements for an Amateur
Radio Service, we will be obsolete in a world of
commodity communications, available to all.
It is up to you to accept and embrace change. You can
take a small step towards keeping Amateur Radio
relevant by embracing a new communications technology,
inventing a new application for existing technology,
or enhancing your operating procedures. Move yourself
from the trailing edge to the leading edge -- join
TAPR, AMSAT, AMRAD, or the SETI League. Reinvent
yourself. And help reinvent Amateur Radio for the
21st century. Make Amateur Radio a source of
creativity, innovation and most of all -- make Amateur
Radio unique!"
------------------------------------------------------
When I first got interested in Ham Radio back in the
1970s it was the uniqueness of the hobby that started
the spark for me. Ed's comments from above go along way.
ILRP was created by David Cameron, VE7LTD in November
1997 and in early 2002 Jonathan Taylor, K1RFD developed
EchoLink. This type of creativity and innovation are
steps towards keeping Amateur Radio relevant, alive and
unique by embracing new communication technology.
73 Bill, NG1P
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by LNXAUTHOR on September 19, 2004
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- good article!
- i will try EchoLink when more robust supporting server/client apps are released in open source form... (there are *some* Sourceforge projects underway, but all seem to be in alpha stage)...
- IRLP seems well supported with some robust apps...
- but depend on a M$ platform for client support? that's like buying an HF radio with no schematics and a case welded shut from the manufacturer... sorry, but any closed-source amateur radio-related software available only for a specific proprietary platform goes against the spirit of amateur radio...
- i'm sure many users are happy to be able to explore the possibilities, but as things are now with a number of these modes the dependency on binary-only releases means that Linux and Mac OS X users are effectively locked out from use and experimentation...
- fortunately there are many good open source amateur radio projects underway, and a growing collection of software:
http://radio.linux.org.au/
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG4RUL on September 19, 2004
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"First the age old question is EchoLink Ham Radio?"
NO!
EchoLink is VOIP with an RF link (Amateur Radio frequencies) at neither or one or both end(s) of the communications path.
Amateur Radio is a communications path maintained SOLELY with RF links.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by WY3X on September 19, 2004
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Echolink = ham radio is an oxymoron. You cannot have VOIP involved as long as you use the word "radio" in the same sentence. Some hams seem to think that a computer on the internet is just like a microphone with a long coiled cord, and to a point, they think they are correct. But they fail to grasp the concept that they must have a radio on their desk and be talking to their party via RF for it to be "ham radio". Echolink is Ham VOIP, -NOT HAM RADIO-. Nothing wrong with it if that's what they want to use- but I sure wish they'd stop calling it radio, it's -NOT-. Call it "Ham VOIP" all you want to- it's "more correct".
-KR4WM
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by N0FPE on September 19, 2004
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One thing that never seems to get said is that a vast majority of the echolink operations NEVER use any RF. They simply VOIP chat room style conversations. How this is ham radio I fail to see. Now if you think this is the future of ham radio then we are for sure dead. Contacting another user in a far away country via a non RF keyboard to keyboard link is no more than logging into IRQ or AOL chat rooms. It is sure not Ham radio.
Dan
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB2HSH on September 19, 2004
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(sigh)
Yet ANOTHER article on how pseudo-Hams like to pat themselves on the back with VoIP and pretend it's radio.
Oscillator+amplifier+antenna+atmospherics= RADIO
Computer+ISP+microphone/speakers= AOL CHAT ROOM
Have a Nice Day
John
HSH
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by NY7Q on September 19, 2004
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the article is interesting, but i dont believe this is ham radio. it is connected to, but definately not ham radio. i actually do not support the concept. i believe in a complete breakaway of internet, computers..etc from ham radio....radio is radio...tough,,isnt it????
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by WIRELESS on September 19, 2004
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Here we go again, someone telling everyone WHAT ham radio is or should be. There is only one definition of ham radio. Ham radio is anything within the FCC rules that any individual wants to do. I emphasize the word 'individual'. Beyond popular opinion, ham radio is not a group activity, but it can be social activity.
Every other definition is crap! Its time to stop telling everybody else what to do in this hobby. I doubt if that will happen on eHam.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by NN2X on September 19, 2004
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I like the idea that HAM radio is applying / using additional technologies, (Voice over IP) along with general Networking engineering to overcome challenges.
These technologies in combination with various application software (Echo Link and the HF Platform W7DXX / W4MQ), are designed primarily to meet certain needs in the HAM community. (Limited Space, or in my case in the Middle East to provide emergency back up communications without being detected via HF in the area at the same time using the Internet Cloud to gain access to the US HAM operators via HF).
I feel that it is healthy for HAM radio to evolve in the other technologies if it is done to meet a need.
In the case of the IRAQ war, there is a need. Imagine a HAM operator using HF radio for emergency today, he will be spotted quite quickly, but if you are using VPN network to LINK the HF Rig, which is 30 miles away from the site, this will provide a safe zone for the operator because it is very easy to detect HF, but very difficult to detect VPN network.
As far as a Hobby is concern, if you don't have the space, or ability to reach a Repeater you can use the IT technologies to operate the Echo Link and HF Platforms (W4MQ / W7DXX)
I support the Hybrid systems, for not only growth of HAM radio, but to meet certain needs of the HAM community.
Best
Tom (NN2X)
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8WCW on September 19, 2004
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NG1P: I have to give you credit for your efforts. Unfortunately, they're efforts in futility. Nobody wants to hear statements of fact. When you start making sense, the only thing left is mudslinging. As you can see, that's already been graphically illustrated on this thread.
Try saying something like this: I have an item that fits in my shirt pocket called a cell phone. With it, I can dial direct to virtually anywhere I desire and have a relatively private conversation. I can put an earphone in my ear and drive down the road with both hands on the wheel while talking to someone hundreds of miles away, and still have more reliable communication than I would with a much more powerful two-way radio, with an antenna outside the vehicle, while talking to someone locally, and I don't have to push a button every time I speak.
Now, back a typical Ham into a corner and tell them that, and be prepared for the same predictable rhetoric every time. "Uh huh, well uh, that cell phone ain't exactly radio, like, yer talking over a cell tower, Dude!" The comedy there, is that the only people in the world who give the slightest rip about that, are Amateur Radio operators! The rest of the world couldn't care less how the communication got through. They only care that it got through, and how efficiently it got through. The bottom line is that it almost always gets through more efficiently with my cell phone, that in ever does with a two-way radio. That's only one by the way, of a least a thousand examples.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K2WH on September 19, 2004
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Yet another attempt to legitamize Echo Link and to somehow, establish Echolink as the future of ham radio. Using the word "radio" and "Echolink" in the same sentence makes me puke. Like most, I tried echolink and found it to be totally boring. I un-installed it within 1 week.
As others have said, Echo Link is not radio therefore, it is not and cannot be ham radio. It is a chat house with many chat rooms. Besides, every time one of these posting shows up here, it is more of a speech by proponents totally lacking any technical merit. Other than that, I see no redeeming value in this posting at all.
Beyond echo link? I don't know where you go with that but, leave radio or the word radio out of it. Take echo link wherever you wish, but leave ham radio as radio.
How about an article about the dark side ie. vulnerability of Echolink and a real article about radio propagation, and leave Echolink in the dust bin of - been there done that. I have.
K2WH
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K2WH on September 19, 2004
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And another thing......
If you look deeper into these postings, any technical detail (if there at all), is mostly about computers, internet linking and computer jargon.
The only time radio is mentioned is when the term "Ham Radio" is used or the sentence "It hooks up to your radio" somewhere in the text.
So, how does this make it ham radio when I can train my dog to speak and use Echolink? If it doesn't start with RF and end with RF and have a link no longer than your mic lead or key lead then it is not Ham Radio. It is Ham Computer.
K2WH
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K2WH on September 19, 2004
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Oh, forgot. It's got to have an antenna. Thats pretty important. Hi Hi.
K2WH
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by K8SWL on September 19, 2004
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Merging of the computer with radio is a good thing. The future of Ham radio will involve the computer more and more. Note I said the computer, not the internet!! Rather than devote resources and time to VOIP, develope a radio network linked across the country. We have a multitude of VHF/UHF frequencies sitting idle. Efforts could be devoted to digital voice linked via a network of UHF nodes, hubs, repeaters. Back in yhe 80's we were communicating via packet radio at 1200 baud and sending messages across the country totally by radio, Then packet virtualy died. Take the packet network concept, apply it to digital voice via a UHF high speed radio network and we wil have a twenty first century communications system. The technology is there. In our ranks we have the expertise to make it happen.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB7LYM on September 19, 2004
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Howdy Folks !! Here is something to chew on...
The blessing of ECHOLINK
With thousands of Amateur Radio Operators that are retired,on a fixed income,
minimum Social Security and those with low
CA$H FLOW a bright light appeared
in the Skies ! ECHOLINK had arrived.
No more dreaming of $ 5000 plus HF Radios,Antenna tuners at the cost of a 36"
Stereo Color TV, No cables to splice,guide wires,holes to drill in floors and ceilings.
No more leaking roofs from the previous holes drilled that supposed to have hold
the Antenna mast straight up and fell in a windstorm resulting in heavy damage to
the Misses ( No ham ) car. No more cramped fingers from the shiny Morse Code device
that sounds ( accordingly to the Misses ) like a Woodpecker gone mad. No more reading
up on Frequencies, FCC laws - bylaws etc. No more cracked ribs from trying to lift a 12 Volt heavy duty Marine battery for backup on my Old 2 meter handheld. No more shouting from the Misses.
No more adjusting squeltz or looking at a dim frequency read out. No longer shelling out for
colorful QSL cards plus postage that will now pay for my DSL Network. From the saved money
you too can afford a Luxery Recliner with build in Porta porty so you can sit and don't have to run
from the Shach to the John at home. We all know that on a COLD night that you can get hurt that way!
So folks get yourself ready ... Just a click on the Keyboard and ECHOLINK is there !
Clear and even if you can't hear you can See it !!
QSL Cards are FREE in all Colors and Graphics,
ECHOLINK WHAT A BLESSING !!!!
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8WCW on September 19, 2004
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K2WH: You are correct, the two terms really don't belong in the same sentence. In some regards, it's an insult to those who've worked to develope technologies like Echolink. To my knowledge, I don't recall a SINGLE occasion in print or speech, where the developers even remotely suggested that the two were one in the same.
The legitimacy of Echolink has already been established. Your endorsement or lack thereof, is frankly irrelevant to that end. The real tragedy, is that it's author's didn't target their efforts to a service that exists in the 21st century. They'd probably all be retired and living on Easy St. Instead, they focused their talents on a withering service, who's participants unfortunately don't share the same vision for advancing into our present age. Never has anyone to my knowledge, attempted to replace Amateur Radio with Echolink.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by N4ZOU on September 19, 2004
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If the ARRL and SCS have there way and allow 3 KHz wide digital modes like Pactor III in the HF bands you will see digital phone to internet voice mail and EchoLink type operation. It would be so easy to do. It would be easier then Winlink 2000 is now and much cheaper. Right now you can make Internet to PSK31 contacts and I even have a QSL card from one of these type contacts. No operator would need to be present at the Internet to amateur gateway even if the new so called semi-automatic operation rules are allowed. Using the Pactor model of operating practice you would not even be required to listen to a frequency before cranking up the automated link to the digital phone robot. Just think, EchoLink to HF digital phone right from your computer! There is Internet to remote base transceiver services available now but they have their limits. Digital phone robots scanning frequencies as do Pactor robots would solve the problems of transceiver control and setup. It would be the unintended consequences of a big rule change for amateur band use. SCS funds the ARRL ARES project to force Winlink 2000 via Pactor III use and before you know it the digital phone robots have taken it all knocking out the ARRL, ARES, and SCS.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8VWM on September 19, 2004
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What I have gathered so far:
A) Many people think Echolink is somehow replacing Amateur Radio.
B) The future of Amateur Radio will depend on computers.
C) If computers don't have an antenna connected to them it isn't ham radio.
D) Echolink doesn't involve any RF signals because is just another AOL chatroom.
E) Echolink does involve RF signals as it eventually ends up on someones repeater somewhere.
F)Echolink doesn't involve any RF, so it's use is not governed by FCC rules.
G)Cellphones are not ham radio.
H)The article is interesting but it is not ham radio.
I) Echolink is VOIP with an RF link somewhere.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by K7PEH on September 19, 2004
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Is Echolink Ham Radio?
Personally, I don't care. It is definitely not feeding an HF signal to an antenna using a transceiver which is what I like about ham radio. I haven't even learned to like VHF or UHF yet, I may someday. Maybe I will like VHF and UHF when the government passes a law to allow ionospheric propagation around the world like the 20 meter band. After all, didn't some state once pass a law that Pi should be equal to 3 rather than that obscure non-terminating infinite 3 point something fractional number. So, if Pi can be 3 can't we allow a 1.2 GHz signal to travel around the world in the aether?
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB6NU on September 19, 2004
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I'll take this a step further and say that I think we should even come up with a more descriptive term for our hobby than amateur radio. I''m proud to be an amateur radio operator, and radio is the basis of our hobby, but it's so much more than radio.
73!
Dan KB6NU
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N6AJR on September 19, 2004
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Didn't we just do this last week.. com on guys ( and gals) lets do something here radio related, what about them Fan Dioples..
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on September 19, 2004
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I have nothing against Echolink.. I think that allot of people use it and enjoy it...
I would be curious if there was a survey that showed which license used it the most .. I would bet that Tech No-Code would have to be the 90% users.. and good for them... I mean .. If the FCC isn't going to allow a majority of our registered operators to go HF while the rest of the world does allow theirs then our folks had to find some way of getting past that 50 mile UHF/VHF barrier...
so good job and have fun...
I do find it very amusing that many of these QSL cards that I have recieved in the last year are from people that only a year before could not have got on the air becuase of their countries Morse code rules..
but hey-- I am all for keeping Americans off the air while we let some third world people enjoy the full spectrum...
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by G0GQK on September 19, 2004
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Despite all the fancy names and initials, I believe that most licensed radio amateurs believe that to take part in the hobby, they should have in their possession a number of items.
The first is something to recieve and transmit on, a power source, an antenna, a length of co-ax, a morse key or a microphone and somewhere to sit. When one has these bits and pieces one is called a licensed radio amateur and where you do your thing is called "the shack". People all over the world communicate with these items. Those are the basic requirements, and we pass examinations to show the authorities that we can correctly use these items, in return they give us a license.
Anything else like a computer,is an extra. With the items listed you would be able to communicate with another amateur in the middle of Africa. If an operator in Africa does not have a computer, which is very likely, you will be unable to communicate with them.
People do not have to be in possession of a license to use a computer, as intricate and complicated as it might be. Simple, innit !
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB2CPW on September 19, 2004
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Although echolink and IRLP serve a legitimate purpose in Amateur radio, it simply isnt radio. It is just a tool to achieve a specific purpose within radio. I find most users to be newer hams intrigued by its ability to allow long range qso's over the local machine which most newcomers dont have the HF requirements or 6m abilities to achieve such contacts.
It is cool and acceptable, as we know these things tend to bleed over into commercial applications as we have seen with APRS. Police cars, UPS etc.. All use locating protocols now to allow dispatch to see the vehicles location.
Most newcomers will usually be latched into amateur radio by listening to a scanner or hf rx. It is imperative that we be the best we can be on the air and encourage new people to check out the hobby.
Unfortunately there is a decline in membership as the internet has occupied much of peoples daily activities hobbywise. It is difficult for radio to keep up with this trend as most of us grew up with a sw radio,ham or swl'er etc that got us into radio. Not too many of us left as well.
There is no right or wrong answer. One must do what they feel is right to foster growth in this service.
Regards.. Richy N2ZD
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG6TEW on September 19, 2004
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LMAO - I have never been able to connect with Echolink. I have downloaded and deleted and downloaded and deleted and downloaded this program, again and again, and I have yet to get a connection. I have gone through the troubleshoot, the online help, you name it. And I've even joined a geocities echolink chat group for help, but to no avail. Yet I've never have trouble with my radio connecting to someone. So, in MY opinion, echolink isn't ham radio! Echolink is internet software (VOIP) and, as such, not unlike a chat room. But that's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it! LOL :)
73, kg6tew
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG4RUL on September 20, 2004
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To reiterate my previous definitions:
EchoLink is VOIP with an RF link (Amateur Radio frequencies) at neither or one or both end(s) of the communications path.
Amateur Radio is a communications path maintained SOLELY with RF links.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by W3ZR on September 20, 2004
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VoIP isn't radio, but it's a linking tool.
Just as important as a TNC is between the computer
and the radio.
I am wondering if any of the anti VoIP people out
there are Fire, Police or EMS responders and will
they stop responding when we dispatch them over a
VoIP system to the appropriate tower because we
aren't using radio(Microwave links)?
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by WA4DOU on September 20, 2004
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VoIP or Anti-VoIP aren't proper arguements in the Public Safety and commercial rhelm. They are properly addressed in the amateur radio arena where they do have a large measure of utilitarian value but have become a defacto dx'ing method for no code technicians and a few others whose sole interest is communications complete with qsl cards via electronic methods. As such it has become an "easy" substitute to traditional amateur radio and "easy" prey to draw fire.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by K1KID on September 20, 2004
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I just called my friend's cell phone from my cell phone. He's on vacation in Hawaii.Wow, RF at both ends of the link! I think I will ask him to send me an "E-QSL".
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by AJ3U on September 20, 2004
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Did any of you actually READ the article that the original poster mentioned? It has nothing to do with "Is Echolink Radio", yet this thread has become yet another horse beating.
It is no wonder that the number of HAM operators and the usefulness of our "services" are declining when all we do is argue among ourselves.
I encourage you all to read this...
http://www.hamradio-online.com/1999/mar/unique.html
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC5SAS on September 20, 2004
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QUOTE-> I am wondering if any of the anti VoIP people out
there are Fire, Police or EMS responders and will
they stop responding when we dispatch them over a
VoIP system to the appropriate tower because we
aren't using radio(Microwave links)?
<-UNQUOTE
As a Firefighter I can tell you that the vast majority would neither care nor understand the difference. All they know is that when they push the mike button the message had better get through no matter what sort of system is being used. How it happens is simply not important to most public safety professionals.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by WB8PUM on September 20, 2004
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I am driving my car in Nashville, TN and I am talking on a 2 meter Ham radio. I am talking to a ham friend of mine in Detroit. I am on a Ham rig in my car talking over a Nashville Ham repeater connected by Echolink to a Detroit Ham repeater to a Ham friend in his car talking on his 2 meter Ham radio over the Detroit Ham radio repeater.
Now what was the question? .... is Echolink Ham Radio?
There was even CW transmitted by the Detroit repeater!
Now what was the question? ....is Echolink Ham Radio?
Dr. Phil would ask...."What were you thinking when you asked that question?"
then he would say..."Get Real"
This is the same stuff that went on when SSB was new!
Same ole same ole!
Because the "Grand Ole Opry" is using TCP/IP and music over IP.... is it still the "Grand Ole Opry"?
How can we ever get to the truth?
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K3UD on September 20, 2004
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In what way is EchoLink much different than the old short wave Mackey Marine ship to shore telephone system which was used on ocean going vessels for so long? There was also the early mobile phone system using at first HF frequecies then VHF/UHF frequencies.
Both of these systems started with RF being generated and intelligence being patched into a landline system. Ham radio has done this for years in the areas of phone patches and autopatch technology. Another (somewhat disjointed) example is how traffic has traditionally been passed to the end recepient, usually with the end recepient either being called on the landline or receiving a postal mailing of the message. (of course there is now email....)
The only real difference I see with EchoLink is that communication can now start with a landline system and either connect with another landline terminal, or with an RF terminal.
Is EchoLink Ham Radio? No more than a telephone is Ham Radio.
I
s EcholLink a tool that ham radio ops can use in conjunction with ham radio? Of course it is, but it is nothing more than a relay.
If two or more Echolink equipped computers hook up directley, It is not any differnet than a telephone conference call or an internet voice chatroom, and has nothing to do with ham radio.
73
George
K3UD
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KA3RFE on September 20, 2004
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Were's the challenge? Where's the application of skills and knowledge and equipment? Where's the radio?
I would much rather be sitting in front of one of my 2 HF rigs looking for contacts over the air than using an internet connection to talk to someone else who's using an internet connection someplace else. I'm hearing from technicians that they're working towards a WAS award and they're halfway there. When questioned about it, they almost to a certainty were using the internet to do this. Is that working all states? I don't think so...
Internet connections may be neat and cool and they may be called "communicating" and you may never know who is going to be on the other side of the link, but is it radio? Even if it does involve two radios somewhere in the chain? What are you actually communicating with? The local repeater? Your ISP?
If people want to use internet connections to talk with other people, fine. Go to it! But let's not call this ham radio, cuz it ain't.
73, Pete KA3RFE
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB2HSH on September 20, 2004
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"Hey Bill...are you having QRM there?"
"Yeah...my cat jumped on the keyboard!"
Gimme a break.
(DIRECT EXCERPT FROM AN ECHOLINK "QSO")
John
HSH
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by K4IKM on September 20, 2004
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In my opinion, Ham Radio should not be so narrowly defined. Just as we use HF, VHF & UHF for communicating, we could use the Internet as a new media. For me, Ham Radio is about much more than electromagnetic waves. My cell phone does that but it's sure not Ham Radio. I think the fun in Ham Radio involves talking to people all over knowing that I'll never meet them, building equipment for my shack, learning complex technical concepts, meeting local hams on the repeater and at clubs. Many of the problems we have with RF media like QRM and QRN are also problems in the Internet, they just appear a little different.
I wouldn't want the radio media to disappear but maybe there's a way to incorporate Internet as a new media, just like adding a new band.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N8VCL on September 20, 2004
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Soo.....
This "article" has gone off the front page of QRZ and now we get it here?
Yawn.
http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=672841568560230029b553203db7e7f4;act=ST;f=3;t=69933;hl=echolink
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8VWM on September 20, 2004
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2004, "Amateur Radio Service"
-
2050, ".- -- .- - . ..- .-. .-. .- -.. .. --- ... . .-. ...- .. -.-. . "
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KD7JJY on September 20, 2004
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>Were's the challenge? Where's the application of >skills and knowledge and equipment? Where's the >radio?
The challenge happened when the individual decided to write a program to solve the problem "How can I use the internet and radio to provide a reliable communication link?" Echolink and IRLP I believe should not end in its current state. More hams should be asking themselves, how can I take this to the next level? Such as, How can I squeeze more information into the same or less (sometimes more, aka UWB) bandwith, and recover that information under any situation. I would love to see hams come up with a solution to an impossible idea, such as Full motion video using less than 3khz, or full quieting audio recovered from below the noise floor. It's not going to happen using any hardware solution!
Radio should be the focal point, but I do not believe we should deny anyone the right to experiment with newer ways to convey information. Otherwise, the FCC should just charge us for the use of our spectrum and type accept our equipment to only allow certain emmissions. Too many hams are willing to be just appliance operators, which is fine to a point. We need those hams to test/use inovative ideas. We do not need hams bad mouthing those that are actually willing to experiment and share their work with the rest of us.
73,
William, KD7JJY
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RE: Dudes
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by K4JSR on September 20, 2004
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DUDE!.........................................DUDE!
Yup, Charles, there appears to be an Echo in here! :-D
Echolink is not my cup of tea, however that is the nice thing about ham radio--There are several kinds
of teas available. If you can't find your cup of tea
in this hobby, then LEAF! (I could not resist!)
I can remember back in the mid Seventies when I was
Repeater Manager for the Atlanta Radio Club. Doug,
K4SWJ, came up with a few spare $$$ (We were both single back then!) and talked me into taking him up
to the repeater site. Doug would then dial to the
autopatch phone number at one of his friend's repeater
in Los Angeles, thus linking the two repeaters together until Doug's budget ran out. Was it ham radio? YES! Because it was done by hams, for hams and
it was fun listening to hams coming up on the repeaters at either end and having a ball.
Back in those days ham radio was a lot more fun.
Why? Because we were young, enthusiastic, and nowhere
near as jaded as we are now.
My vote is that if Part 97 allows it, then it is indeed ham radio.
If you don't like experimenting, rag chewing, working DX, RTTY, CW, SSB, AM, FM, Digtal modes, sstv, ARES,
RACES, contests, Elmering and getting Elmered, Radio
Control, fast scan TV, hamfests, rag chewing, QRP,
QRO, QSK, and anything else that I have overlooked,
then you are a sociopath commie liberal!
OOOPS! Sorry! I did not mean to insult the commies and liberals! :-P
So just go get a grip and enjoy the hobby as much or
as little as you wish. Leave being a troglodyte to those of us who are trained professionals! Just remember the sound a troglodyte makes when he falls
in hole in his cave, "SPEE-LUNK"!!
Y'all go and play nice, now. Ya Heah?
73 Cal K4JSR
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB3GUN on September 20, 2004
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Echolink is a tool. Use it if you like, or don't. I still think CW should be required for general and extra. Many of you flaming this thread think CW should be removed from Ham and the bandplan turned to phone only. Being a ham is more than that $2000 HF rig you bought running a few KW across the world. If echolink helps get old hams active again or new hams interested in upgrading, how is it so bad? Many that complain also say that UHF/VHF FM isn't radio if you use a repeater. To each their own. "Ham Radio" is a state of mind.
73
Bill kb3gun
Echolink Node 23115 (Repeater)
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC0SHZ on September 20, 2004
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I have tried to use Echolink, but the one node in Omaha doesn't seem to respond to radio signals. The one node in Lincoln is too far from me to reach by radio.
I have tried IRLP, but the one node in Omaha is seemingly permanently connected to San Diego. I like San Diego as much as anyone, but enough is enough.:)
I don't see these modes having much more appeal to me after I tried to use both with no real success. I had one QSO over IRLP in 15 attempts.
For me as a new HAM, the appeal is the ability to talk to others without ANY other infrastructure than your radio. The really cool thing for me now is the community service aspects and ARES. I really enjoy doing bike races and such. Perhaps, I will get bored with this, but for now, I am ok.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8VWM on September 20, 2004
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"Ham Radio is a state of mind."
This is Amateur Station KC8VWM in the group...
I am running a P4 - 3.0 Ghz processor with 1 gig of SDRAM. I am talking to you on a Heil Microphone connected to my Soundblaster Awe 64 which is interfaced to my Rigblaster Pro.
Currently your TX is reading 5-9 at 1.5 kps. My internet bandwidth conditions are changing at this time. The ARRL reported that there is significant internet flux due to a widespread email virus that is affecting our signal propogation. Suggest we QSY, switching over to ICQ text typing mode or the AOL SSTV chat servers.
...How Cpy?
This is KC8VWM for ID...
Bleeeeep!
:)
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by K0RGR on September 20, 2004
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We seem to be experiencing a wave of these Echolink topics lately. I think they are being stimulated by the reports that Echolink and IRLP came in very handy during the recent Hurricanes and related disasters in the South.
Some people apparently find the concept threatening.
For many, maybe most hams, ham radio is something you do with a telegraph key or a microphone, involving the transmission of RF from a local transmitter.
But for many more of us, it a keyboard - to- keyboard conversation on the air. Few would say that is not radio, but some do. If I use my computer to assist me in making meteor scatter contacts by decoding signals that I could not possibly copy by ear, is that radio? Some don't think so, but we accept the cards for VUCC credit.
There are a lot of new hams using Echolink that haven't bought a radio yet, as well as hams who live in places where they just can't have a radio, such as nursing homes. For the newbies, it's a way to learn how to operate on 2 meters, and get on repeaters and ask questions.
I discourage people from using Echolink PC-to-PC. When you do that, you remove two stations from the air. If at least one station is on the air, however, you are probably increasing activity someplace. That is a good thing!
Of course it's ham radio, as much as a phone patch is ham radio. Is APRS ham radio? Hint: It works on the same principles!
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by NI0C on September 20, 2004
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I find myself in agreement with the comments of Dennis, KG4RUL, and John, KB2HSH.
Say, John, that's a formidable callsign for CW. (My first callsign was K0VSH).
73 de Chuck NI0C
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by N3NL on September 20, 2004
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Interesting article especially the part about
inventing and developing new things. I have tried
to do my part with U.S. Patent 6,771,935 and with
a paper for the coming AMSAT conference.
This type of thing is a fun part of ham radio.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by X-WB1AUW on September 20, 2004
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"First the age old question is EchoLink Ham Radio?"
I doubt the pioneers in ham radio ever pondered that "age-old" question.
I guess I am truly blessed, I've never wondered if EchoLink is ham radio. AND, I've never thought I should be deciding if it is ham radio (or not).
Just waiting for the daytime temps to cool off so I can build some more antennas for 30 and 40 meters.
73
Bob
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC8VWM on September 20, 2004
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Wireless Bus eh?
Pretty good Nick! Here's a description of your invention and where I found a link:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,771,935.WKU.&OS=PN/6,771,935&RS=PN/6,771,935
One question Nick...
How much did it cost to submit your Patent? Can the average ham submit a similar patent?
Your insight is most appreciated.
Hey, better still, why not write an article explaining the process and your experiences (good and bad) with the patent office?
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG4MCC on September 20, 2004
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No. Echolink is not Ham Radio. It enhances Ham Radio. It is simply another tool that Ham's can use. I look at it as being similar to a phone patch, which has been around for decades. Just another way to skin a cat (figuratively speaking of course).
I don't think that these 'tools' redefine Amateur Radio.
Amend - To change or modify in any way for the better.
Yes, that's it. Echolink has "modified or added to Amateur Radio for the better". So, Echolink is an amendment to Ham Radio, not a redefinition.
So, if the author intended to say that Hams need to accept new 'tools' to keep Amateur Radio interesting, I agree. However, it seems to me that some people want to make Echolink something more than it really is, a tool.
73
Dave - KG4MCC
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by N3NL on September 20, 2004
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Hello Charles, KC8VWM and the other hams
The Patent Office is certainly a mixed bag for the
ham and the independent inventor.
The Patent Office fees are not too bad (they are lower
for the independent or small entity inventor). Some
items of special interest are the Disclosure Document
and the Provisional Patent Application.
The pricey part is the patent lawyer and draftsman
who are very helpful indeed. There was a patent
lawyer advertising in QST a few years ago who stated
that he would prepare patent applications for
about $2,000 plus depending on the invention's
complexity. There can be additional costs if
additional actions (arguments) are required at the
patent office.
Each patent is a license to sue in court, and that
is why lawyers are important to the process. By the
way, I am not a lawyer.
Are patents worthwile? That is a very open
question. Here are some of my thoughts on the
matter that I filed several years ago:
The following are comments on the problems that independent inventors have with enforcing their patents and suggestions for improving the situation.
The Patent Enforcement Situation
The percentage of independent inventors obtaining U.S. patents has declined over historical time. Much of this decline is probably due to the problems that independent inventors have in enforcing their patents.
The enforcement of a patent against others is a legal process that is widely known to be quite expensive. Most individual inventors who own their patents cannot afford the tens of thousands of dollars that are usually required to conduct legal action against an organization that is infringing on his or her patent.
Since independent inventors are well aware of this basic fact, many of them have decided not to obtain patents on their inventions. Others have decided to drop out of inventing entirely.
This situation is of importance to the economy and to the patent establishment because independent inventors are often the source of major inventions that represent significant advances from the current technical state of the art. When independents drop out of the patent process, some major inventions are undoubtedly becoming lost to the economy or delayed in being introduced into the marketplace.
This situation also raises questions about the legitimacy of the patent system. If patents are only useful and effective for organizations with large budgets, have patents become an instrument for the rich with the average citizen being fully shut out of the system?
Possible Steps to Correct this Situation
There are several steps that could be taken to correct this problem with the enforcement of independent inventors’ patents. Each of the following options should be examined:
- The Justice Department could enforce a selected set of independent inventors’ patents. In this approach the Federal Government would take up the financial and legal burden of enforcing an independent inventor’s patent against those who are infringing on it. Clearly, the government does not have the budget to enforce all of the independents’ patents that are issued. So some form of mechanism would have to be included to select the patents to be enforced. Something as simple as a selection lottery may be satisfactory.
- The Patent and Trademark Office could administer a fund authorized by Congress for assisting independent inventors with the costs of enforcing their patents.
- Independent inventors could have longer patent terms to allow them the time to raise funds for the successful enforcement of their patents.
- Independent inventors could be allowed to keep their issued patent secret for a fixed period of time (of several years) to allow them to raise funds for the defense of their patents.
Recommended First Steps
This is a complex issue that should be discussed at length before specific action is taken. Some of these steps require Congressional legislation.
The United States Patent and Trademark Office should request public comment on this subject. In addition, Congressional hearings on this topic should be requested.
Action is needed to make sure that the contributions of independent inventors to the American economy are not lost.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by G3SEA on September 20, 2004
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I have been using EchoLink for over a year either with an HT or a Laptop ( RF at the other end :) ) and find it a wonderfully reliable system to talk back to the U.K. ( and world )repeaters
from here in Hawaii.I have had hundreds of interesting and meaningful QSO's with Hams all over the world.
Antenna restrictions etc preclude HF work so it's EchoLink ( or IRLP ) or nothing for me.
It is no different ( for me ) than talking on a 'Local' U.K. repeater except that I link to it over the Internet from Hawaii.
1.EchoLink Traffic stats indicate that the OVERWHELMING number of contacts involve RF at one end or both :)
2. EchoLink IS also available for Macs ( EchoMac).
Is it Ham Radio ? Is operation on a VHF/UHF repeater
Ham Radio ? Remember EchoLink ( and IRLP ) is basically linked Repeaters. Would you seriously suggest linking those repeaters with HF ? :)
However it's a free country so if you don't like it don't use it :) An exponentially growing number of hams
( especially in this long solar decline period )will and do :)
73 & Aloha :)
Paul KH6/G3SEA
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K2WH on September 20, 2004
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Quote:
"There are a lot of new hams using Echolink that haven't bought a radio yet" End of Quote.
And probably never will!!!!!!!!
That my friends is the crux of the problem. Once on echo link, why bother to buy a radio. This is the dumbing down of amateur radio in action.
K2WH
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K2WH on September 20, 2004
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Quote:
"If the FCC isn't going to allow a majority of our registered operators to go HF...." End of Quote
The FCC has nothing to do with an individual getting a higher class license. Its up to the individual. The no-code techs are their own worst enemy.
K2WH
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB2HSH on September 20, 2004
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NI0C/Chuck:
Thanks, OM. And....as far as the suffix on CW...I can ALWAYS hear the "4-3-4" dits eben under the worst conditions. It's the ONLY thing that makes me hesitate in taking my grandfather's callsign (W2DGV, SK)
John
HSH
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC0RDG on September 20, 2004
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EchoLink should be called something like HamVoIP or HamIP or maybe Amateur Voice Over IP. Take your pick. Anyway you slice it, it's still Internet. Last I remember We are called Amateur RADIO Operators. In my book that means that you must operate a RADIO as in RF. VoIP is the cross-breeding of internet and ham radio. I'm fine with it, heck I might even use it someday but please please don't call EchoLink amateur radio.
What I am scared of is if this "Ham Radio" becomes big, I can see the FCC coming in and saying, "See you don't need your radio spectrum..." No Mom don't let them!
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KV6O on September 20, 2004
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Jeepers! Why are so many responses here defensive? EchoLink isn’t BPL, it’s not going to take your radios away – it’s a tool. It’s not “Ham Radio”, any more than my HT is “Ham Radio”. It’s a tool. If it gets hams on the air, then I am all for it – we need to USE the spectrum we have or we can LOSE it. Packet, RTTY, PSK-31, VoIP, APRS, FM, AM, SSB, CW – whatever!
EchoLink is not the enemy – no need to get all excited about it. If it’s not your thing, fine, don’t use it. But bashing it serves no purpose but to show your ignorance.
I use Echolink just about every day to speak to my friends in Orange County, CA (I recently moved to the Bay Area) over repeaters located in Orange County. For me, it’s a tool to keep in touch. An it DOES use RF, in my case both part 15 (my 802.11b access point) and part 97 (the 2m or 440 repeater). I also use 40m – I check in as often as I can to 2 nets that cover every day but Saturday.
I enjoy checking into nets on my radios (which uses RF) as well as attending Ham club meetings (no RF, just AF). Should I stop going to meetings with other hams because it’s not “using RF”? So what if a Ham makes a computer-to-computer connection and talks to another ham (no part 97 RF involved).
Humm…. Maybe if I convert my wireless setup at home from part 15 to 97 by boosting the power, I can insure that any and all EchoLink QSO’s are truly “Ham Radio”!
SteveL
KV6O
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KV6O on September 20, 2004
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Quote:
"There are a lot of new hams using Echolink that haven't bought a radio yet" End of Quote.
And probably never will!!!!!!!!
That my friends is the crux of the problem. Once on echo link, why bother to buy a radio. This is the dumbing down of amateur radio in action.
K2WH
Consider this. What if using EchoLink gets a newly ticketed ham on the air BEFORE he gets a radio? What it gets him/her interested in Ham radio in the first place! For many younger people, the computer is a familiar thing, while the first QSO on an HT can be intimidating and confusing (did I get the PL and split correct in SUB menu 43A?) Think of EchoLink as a technology bridge in this case. There is no “problem” here, and this is not “dumbing down”. Anyone who is truly interested in ham radio will get a radio – period.
SteveL
KV6O
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KA3RFE on September 20, 2004
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How is a new ham with no radio sitting at a computer linked to an ISP "getting on the air?"
Sheesh...
It STILL isn't ham radio.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N0TONE on September 20, 2004
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KC8WCW wrote:
"Now, back a typical Ham into a corner and tell them that, and be prepared for the same predictable rhetoric every time. "Uh huh, well uh, that cell phone ain't exactly radio, like, yer talking over a cell tower, Dude!" The comedy there, is that the only people in the world who give the slightest rip about that, are Amateur Radio operators! The rest of the world couldn't care less how the communication got through. They only care that it got through, and how efficiently it got through. The bottom line is that it almost always gets through more efficiently with my cell phone, that in ever does with a two-way radio. That's only one by the way, of a least a thousand examples."
I don't understand quite the problem here. Why would you WANT a non-ham to "appreciate" ham radio? Ham radio is a service, a hobby, whatever you want to call it. Those of us who are in it enjoy it for what it is. Is there some ego problem going on that we need the rest of the world to bless us?
When was the last time you heard a dramatic actor begging the comedy actor's guild to "show us some respect", or the last time you saw a rock musician spending time worried about how the classical musicians felt about his "hobby"?
A cell phone is a great tool for having private communications with people you have need to communicate with. Ham radio is a great tool for accidentally encountering other human being on the ether, having had no specific plans to make contact with that person. Analogously, the cellphone is an interstate highway to get from one place to another, and ham radio is an unpaved hiking trail meandering along a creekbed. Both appear to be methods of doing the same thing, but when you lift the lid, there really is no similarity whatsoever.
AM
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KV6O on September 20, 2004
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Quote:
How is a new ham with no radio sitting at a computer linked to an ISP "getting on the air?"
Sheesh...
It STILL isn't ham radio.
End Quote.
How is it not Ham Radio? Define Ham Radio? Did it involve 2-way RF communications between 2 licensed operators? If that's ham radio by your definition, then it's ham radio!
If a new ham gets on a local repeater to make his/her first QSO via EchoLink, then good for him/her!
Explain to me why this is not “Ham Radio”. The FCC seems to think is is.
SteveL
KV6O
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by VE2AED on September 20, 2004
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One thing I have noticed during the past hurricanes , I followed emergency communications on both echolink and 14.325 ,Before the hurricane struck there were "stations" present from preaffected areas on both echolink and HF then ; net control would eventually ask "is there any traffic from the affected areas? " as soon as an area was taken out by the hurricane the stations on echolink were gone forever , never to return ,however there were and are still HF stations even at this very minute in affected areas on 14.325 handling traffic . I leave the verdict up to all of you !
73
VE2AED / Howard
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB2HSH on September 20, 2004
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KC0RDG:
I'll go one step beyond that: The morons that are pushing BPL will try to lure the feeble-minded into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too by having broadband over powerline and use Echolink/eQSO/etc. It's like one set of morons promoting a tool for yet ANOTHER set of morons.
OK...I'm going to bed now. This subject is as tired as I am...
No, Virigina....Echolink isn't ham radio. It's AOL for grown-ups.
HSH
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KL7IPV on September 20, 2004
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Echolink uses VoIP. Ham radio is over the AIR 100%. If cell goes out and cable and DSL go out, there is no VoIP but HAM RADIO can still get out. If you work me on the air 100% and ask for a QSL card, you will get a QSL card. If you work me VoIP or on a cell phone and ask for a QSL card, forget it. If it aint RF all the way, it aint radio, ham or any otherwise. I use them all, but I QSL for HAM RADIO only.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by K9KJM on September 20, 2004
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One of the better replies:
"EchoLink is not the enemy – no need to get all excited about it. If it’s not your thing, fine, don’t use it. But bashing it serves no purpose but to show your ignorance."
I suspect many are actually very fearful of how well Echolink works, And how it "threatens" HF operations.... Those who think that Echolink is "just another chat room" really have no idea of the MANY ways Echolink can be used, Including ALL RF communications, With NO "twisted pair" involved at all. Echolink can be a simple "chat room" between computers, OR it might be an all RF link connecting two or more RF repeaters via RF broadband connections!
Or any combination in between.
Echolink is not a replacement for HF. As mentioned, IF
One of the Echolink stations is on a phone line connection and the phone line goes down, Echolink goes down also.
Lighten up and enjoy Echolink for how well it really works. Those who continue to bash it sound about like
those the old timers laughed at because they just could not stand the "new fangled" SSB modes............
(And those who think that all computer systems are
"not RF" Better take a few lessons on how much RF is
really involved with broadband systems)
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by NJ6F on September 21, 2004
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Greetings,
I think voice over carrier is cheating.... If your not doing CW your not really a radio ham.
If your not running 5 watts with tube gear but using 1KW than thats not really ham radio
AM is the only mode... SSB is not real radio......
Sound Stupid....well so does your argument about Voice over Internet.
If you are just in love with listening to static...it reminds me of the stupidity of listening to records versus CD because of the snap crackel and pop....Stupid!
Are you fascinated with distance and you think that some how the signal has to work extra hard and bounce a few times to get there for you to justify that it rightfully earned it's way.....Stupid
Are you a boat anchor AM guy that thinks that a solid state (ricebox rig )into an amp with perfect AM audio is not real radio unless it weighs 500 pounds.... Stupid
Are you a ham that thinks because a Yaesu FT100-D has not that many knobs, but lots of versitile menu's for you to adjust 150 different items (quantatively) right down to the mic gain of 17...without having to fiddle with inaccurate dust collector knobs that it isn't real radio.... Stupid
Hey get real..... I have been a happy ham since 1968 but I am adapting and ((((( asking myself )))) and justifing to myself other different modes. If you disagree you are a detriment to the hobby. Be thankful that these new modes breeth some life back into this hobby.
When your sitting in a nursing home and only able to speak.....are you going to still be on this stupid bandwagon of what is real radio..... radio is just a name, voice over internet is just a name...who cares how your voice gets there....you are communicating on a one on one or more via Echolink to others, sharing ideas, observing different life styles, and I love it.
If you are not fascinated in meeting another person but only in keeping yourself isolated because of the mode in which you reach that person .....there is something wrong with you.... Do you have any other fettishs while we are at it... Stupid
What happens when they digitize audio as they are doing now with those AOR boxes but improve on it and get 4,5 or 6 KHz BW out of compressed audio from a elect condensor $1 mic via radio direct what are you going to say then.....its not real radio because it sounds too good....no QRN or crackle like quiet CD's, like voice over internet. OH wait....its not real radio because the mic only cost $1 instead of $500..... stupid
If you fools are not ready to change, put your head in a bowl of Rice Krispies and go to sleep.
This comment was out of frustration with some of you, and I was trying to offer perspective. May be it help you or maybe your beyond help...
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KB6NU on September 21, 2004
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Put me down as one who thinks EchoLink IRLP is as much a part of amateur radio as SSB is. You guys railing against it better get on the train or you're going to be left behind.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KI6LO on September 21, 2004
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I guess I missed something when I took my license exams and received my ham ticket. All my license says is that I have been granted the authority to transmit on RF spectrum allocated to the amateur radio service by the FCC in the US.
There wan't anything about the ability to perscribe (or suggest to perscribe) mental health treatment to fellow humans (hams or not).
There wasn't anything remotely indicative of my level of expertise on any subject and definitely nothing to indicate my ideas and opinions were better than any other human (ham or not).
There wasn't anything there that remotely indicated that I had been given the ability to recite law to fellow humans (hams or not).
There wasn't anything included with my license that said I had the god given right to admonish, scold, degrade, redicule or insult another human (ham or not) based on their opinion.
So I guess most of the people who have been adding comments to this thread (and a lot of the eHam.net threads) must have received a different license than I did. BTW I hold an Extra class. All I can ask is "What license did you get that gives you the above rights".
Now I know why we are being given the chance to vote for two mud-slinging politicians this November since this sort of behavior seems to permeate through all levels of society on almost every topic mankind (including hams) can think of.
Choose the mode, frequency, equipment and medium that you want to use for PARTICIPATION in the amateur radio service and have fun. Check your license again and see if your not part of the amateur radio service????? My money says you ARE!!!!
Gene KI6LO
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KA3RFE on September 21, 2004
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I'm bye no means "against" Echolink. If you enjoy it, fine. Just don't call it ham radio; It may be a communications mode, but it isn't ham radio. Someone sitting in front of a computer that is linked to to an ISP isn't using radio. "Getting on the air without a radio" isn't doing ham radio. Talking to someone in another country from a local computer and HT isn't working DX...it's working the repeater.
If one wants to play with Echolink, that's fine. I, however, prefer the challenge of using a radio to talk to people in other countries, not connecting to a local repeater or an ISP to do it. There's no challenge to an internet contact. You may as well just call someone in another country on the telephone.
What's next? DXCCI? (DXCC via internet) WASI? (worked all states internet)
I'll collect my contacts for these awards over RF, thank-you-very-much, using knowledege of props and beam headings and dipoles antennas and beams and vertical antennas. That's called "radio."
Please let's not call this ham radio. It isn't. If you have fun doing it, fine, but it's not ham radio.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by WA4DOU on September 21, 2004
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Actually eqsl's are already a reality and being exchanged for Echolink and IRLP contacts. If you don't believe it, go to eqsl.cc, log in, pull up the log entry screen and click on "special propagation mode". The 3 choices are: IRLP, Echolink and Satellite.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KV6O on September 21, 2004
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Quote from KA3RFE:
I'm bye no means "against" Echolink. If you enjoy it, fine. Just don't call it ham radio; It may be a communications mode, but it isn't ham radio. Someone sitting in front of a computer that is linked to to an ISP isn't using radio. "Getting on the air without a radio" isn't doing ham radio. Talking to someone in another country from a local computer and HT isn't working DX...it's working the repeater.
If one wants to play with Echolink, that's fine. I, however, prefer the challenge of using a radio to talk to people in other countries, not connecting to a local repeater or an ISP to do it. There's no challenge to an internet contact. You may as well just call someone in another country on the telephone.
What's next? DXCCI? (DXCC via internet) WASI? (worked all states internet)
I'll collect my contacts for these awards over RF, thank-you-very-much, using knowledege of props and beam headings and dipoles antennas and beams and vertical antennas. That's called "radio."
Please let's not call this ham radio. It isn't. If you have fun doing it, fine, but it's not ham radio.
End Quote.
I agree that working awards using Echolink is a separate category. However, most Echolink nodes are FM repeaters, and I can’t remember the last time I got a QSL card from a repeater contact. Just a thought.
I still don’t understand why it isn’t ham radio. Because it uses a computer? Because it (can) use the Internet? If it connects to a part 97 RF source and uses it in a licensed manner, it IS ham radio. If it connects two computers with no part 97 RF, it ISN’T ham radio. Globally declaring, “Echolink is not Ham Radio” is just wrong. I don’t consider Echolink contacts “challenging” either, but that’s not why I use it.
I have a friend who has built a nice station in the high desert in Southern California, outside any antenna restrictions and away from a lot of noise. He has several acres and grows a nice antenna farm – 2 towers, 40M 4 square, 80M vertical (BIG!), 2 beverages, some dipoles, 1500W – lots of fun to operate from (I do most of my HF mobile (FT-857) or portable QRP with an ICOM-703, so running QRO with big antennas is a treat for me!). He operates this most of the time remotely using a Kachina 505 from his house in suburbia. I have talked to him many times on 40M – he has a killer signal off that 4 square!
Now, because he is “…sitting in front of a computer that is linked to an ISP” your telling me he “isn't using radio”? Gee, the FCC thinks he is, I think he is, and I suspect everyone he works on HF thinks he’s using a radio. How do you figure he “isn’t using radio”, and manages to make CW contacts on HF? In fact, I would argue making the contacts using the Kachina makes the whole thing more challenging!
Please don’t tell us what Ham Radio is or isn’t. If the FCC requires that you be licensed to do it, then it counts in my book.
SteveL
KV6O
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG4RUL on September 21, 2004
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SteveL - KV6O Writes:
====================
I have a friend who has built a nice station in the high desert in Southern California, outside any antenna restrictions and away from a lot of noise. He has several acres and grows a nice antenna farm – 2 towers, 40M 4 square, 80M vertical (BIG!), 2 beverages, some dipoles, 1500W – lots of fun to operate from (I do most of my HF mobile (FT-857) or portable QRP with an ICOM-703, so running QRO with big antennas is a treat for me!). He operates this most of the time remotely using a Kachina 505 from his house in suburbia. I have talked to him many times on 40M – he has a killer signal off that 4 square!
Now, because he is “…sitting in front of a computer that is linked to an ISP” your telling me he “isn't using radio”? Gee, the FCC thinks he is, I think he is, and I suspect everyone he works on HF thinks he’s using a radio. How do you figure he “isn’t using radio”, and manages to make CW contacts on HF? In fact, I would argue making the contacts using the Kachina makes the whole thing more challenging!
Please don’t tell us what Ham Radio is or isn’t. If the FCC requires that you be licensed to do it, then it counts in my book.
==============
Absolutely this is Ham Radio! What you have here is a remote base. He still talks to the other guy using RF and antennas and other esoteric gadgets. Echolink eliminates the middleman - RF! Ergo, echolink is not Ham Radio!
BTW - the FCC does not require you to be a Ham Radio operator to use echolink unless you are the control operator. If someone was willing to risk their ticket and be a live control operator, we could eliminate that whole pesky licensing thing.
Dennis / KG4RUL
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KJ4PR on September 21, 2004
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Living in the Florida Keys we have few hams and no activity on the local repeaters. You can listen for months without hearing a QSO taking place. Back in January of this year I set up a simplex link connected through Ecolink. I now have a 24 hour 7 day a week connection through fellow hams that allow me to stay connected to their repeater in central Florida. My useless mobile radio is now my Ham connection for a 50 mile radius of my home. Without Echolink I would be talking to myself. Is it Ham Radio? For me it is the best use for Ham radio. I still work HF at home but for my daily commute and while out on the boat I can depend on Echolink.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by W4UDX on September 22, 2004
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Comparing ham radio and VOIP is like comparing apples and oranges. Seperately they are totally different. Radio gear will never be VOIP by itself, likewise VOIP will never be radio by itself. But if using them together is not in violation of FCC rules, I don't see a problem. If you like apples, eat an apple. If you like oranges, eat an orange. Some people prefer fruit salad. Some people prefer more than just radio gear. What about APRS? Can't it operate fully automated - making contacts while you are away or asleep? Is that truly radio? If it doesn't break the rules, does it matter?
BTW: I prefer not to use Echolink or APRS.... I personally have more fun with old gear using good ole' CW and SSB. But that is MY cup o' tea.
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N2LJD on September 22, 2004
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Throw in my two cents, what the hey.
If Echolink runs to a repeater, and an op using a radio is talking into the repeater (echolink - repeater - radio (Tinkers to Evers to Chance?) how's that different from remote control of a radio, like several examples I've seen in QST and QEX? Or does that make Ten Tec's Pegasus not a radio?
The fight over 'is it is or is it ain't' is counterproductive and divisive. As several moderate voices have chimed in, if you enjoy it, and aren't breaking the rules, Enjoy!
73
Joe
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by G3SEA on September 22, 2004
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One can only conjecture what the ' beyond ' part of this posting's title will mean for our hobby :)
BTW KG4RUL All applicants for Echolink use ARE required ( and are authenticated) to have valid Ham Licences ( since they use VHF/UHF HT's and Mobiles into Repeaters and Links ).
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KC0MKO on September 22, 2004
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I truly think that many of the people writing these comments do not understand that some older hams live in areas where they are not allowed to put up any anntenas. This is their only way to communicate with out having to spend alot of money. So some you are refering to hams as morons those that feel that way must think like the simpleton cb'ers. So be it good luck to the morons
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by AE6IP on September 22, 2004
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What a dumb debate. "Ham radio" isn't just using the Amateur Radio Service (ARS) to communicate over the air. It's clubs. It's teaching others. It's finding interesting ways to integrate the ARS into the rest of life. Things like APRS, which is only interesting to many because they can go to a web site to find out where their buddy's APRS transmitters is now.
We use computers in many ways in ham radio. We use them to model propagation, to log qsos, to model antennas, to run digital modes, even to control our rigs.
I use two computers on a wireless network so I can operate my rig from a different room in the house. Did my activity quit being "ham radio" just because I'm using a part 15 wifi net between my mic and my transceiver?
Of course not.
Are linked repeaters not "ham radio" because they use twisted pair to link the repeaters rather than back haul on the ham bands?
Of course not.
If I'm building on an Elecraft kit, is what I'm doing not "ham radio" because it doesn't involve RF?
Of course not.
"ham radio" isn't merely RF communications using the ARS. It's a hobby, centered on, but not limited to such communications.
EchoLink is as much a part of the hobby as kit building, antenna modeling, and linked repeaters.
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by N2NFG on September 24, 2004
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Some years ago, a woman named Rosie Ruiz entered the NY Marathon. A short time after the start of the race, she ducked out of the pack and caught a bus, getting off somewhere near the finish line. At the appropriate time, she rejoined the pack. Since she was nice and fresh, she went on to "win" the race. (later disqualified) Gee, I wonder why a discussion of Echo-link made me think of this story?
73, Bob N2NFG
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KD5LWU on September 24, 2004
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Well put THANKS.....
I seem to remember that when HF rigs went from tubes to all transister the same nature of questions were asked (also when we went from AM to SSB it was said ham radio would never be the same and they were right it's much better!). What is the difference between a all transister rig and a computer? The transistors are the same in both! How about a transceiver build around using a computer? Or a setup to control a rig using an interface and computer? Is that ham radio? Of course!
There has always been a resistence against using computers in the ham shack by some hams. The best I can say is if they don't like it (Echolink, IRLP or computers)don't do it but stop complaining about those who do like it.
Back when 2 meter repeaters first came into existence we were told by some hams that it would be the down fall of ham radio and it seems like maybe the same bunch, but the next generation, again are doom saying that Echolink and/or cell phones will ruin ham radio.
Not going to happen folks Ham Radio (and two meter repeaters) are here to stay and continues to be a growing force in the World's technology pursuits.
Is the Internet, Echolink, IRLP and digital communications going to change Ham Radio? Like it or not the answer is YES and it will be for the better when we learn to change with the times and technology and add our own individual expertise to the growth potentials of these technologies.
Happy digital communiations to all whether it's Echolink, IRLP, PSK31, Internet modems and sound cards connected to a repeater or what ever other mode used to connect our RF waves to modern technologies.
----------------------------------------------------
So is a repeater controller really a controller if we can access and control it using a cell phone instead of a ham rig? Hi Hi
Johnny in Cortez, Colorado a General Class license now 61 years old and choosing to keep up with modern technologies...
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by AA2QA on September 24, 2004
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Yep, glad to know I'm a pseudo-ham.
I use Echo link a fair amount. I enjoy chatting with Bill, VE7DTM who usually hears me on his HT and answers with his HT through his repeater. I use my computer although the local WB2KAO repeater also is connected through Echolink and I could key that up with the HT.
When I had an audio problem, I connected through the WB2KAO repeater and used my HT and computer.
I'd be glad to hook up with someone on the air and discuss it, but I'd need a couple of rules.
1) CW
2) More than 20 words per minute. Anything less and I get sleepy waiting.
3) I'm getting old. Please nothing more than 45 words per minute. I admit to not being able to copy like I used to.
4) Considering there are too many Morse code programs on PCs, perhaps we should forego number 2 and 3 and be Americans. Real Americans. American land-line Morse, please. I've used it before, but admit to being a bit rusty, but suspect there aren't too many American Morse cw programs out there for PCs. I also doubt there are too many folks who could easily write a program nor would they expend the energy just so they could use a pc to fool me. Sigh ... and I'd best suggest we slow to 16 to 20 words per minute as I am rusty and that is about all I've ever done using land-line Morse.
Finally, I've noticed more youngsters antagonistic towards Echolink than old timers. So ... no cw as it is old fashioned, no Echolink since it is not amateur radio ....
I've got it!
Fire up your echo-mics and get that "swang thang" going :))
Audiooooooo!
;)
73 from Rochester, NY and thanks for letting me vent LOL
Jim - AA2QA
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by ON4SKY on September 26, 2004
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Hi,
Beyond Echolink is the right title !
Without wishing to initiate a controversy, Echolink is much more than one more "big chat room", or another Messenger system as say some hams who only think that Echolink "is no more ham raido".
In fact whether or not EchoLink is amateur radio depends on how you use it...
If you are talking computer to computer, of course it is just like any chat program. But EchoLink is much more than this... Here are some examples of RF linkings handled by EchoLink :
The difference between EchoLink and Internet chat rooms is that you can talk to stations that are mobile or portable in V/UHF going through their locally linked repeater.
You can also use wireless adapters. Thus you are no more limited to computer to computer connections.
But here is a more complex example that goes farther that what do most amateurs with Echolink.
You can use EchoLink to talk from your portable RF transceiver, connected to a local UHF repeater, then out over EchoLink, itself connected the local CATV company RF fiber optic line, then to a satellite link to Oceania, to another RF link, to a VHF repeater, to talk at last with a ham working mobile on his 2m portable somewhere in Australia in the middle of nowhere !
In this special case, both amateurs radio picture that this transmission uses much more RF than "wired" lines ! ...
Of course in fact, technically speaking each of them does not really work DX but only to their nearest repeater.
You can complexify this link in using wireless PC connexions too.
Imagine that you want to use your portable computer outdoor, in your garden, but of course there is no Internet connexion available outside your house. This is not a problem.
There are two possibilities : WiRi and Air-base. The first is a public wireless network requesting one base station using a DSL connexion linked to the Internet. This connexion can be shared at no charge by several remote users (you can always share you telephone bill with them, hi).
Air base is more respectfuly of the ham spirit. To use your portable PC running EchoLink a few hundreds meters from your home you have to plug in the portable an USB or PCMCIA wireless adapter (e.g. D-link). This card emits a RF signal to its "Air-base" and links your remote portable to the Internet. The Air-base consists in an small external peripheral equipped with an antenna and wired to your main computer serial adapter. The signal is then handled by EchoLink.
So EchoLink is great for "on the fly" linking of/to V/UHF repeaters, wireless stations, or even "link" stations. But of course it can also be nothing more than two hams sitting at their computers talking like in a "chat room" to each other via the switched line... But even connecting directly computers, EchoLink is useful to lighten your phone bill if you regularly in contact with ham friends !
The old-fashion nostalgy...
You will find other comments I published on Echolink in the other pages of this forum.
Hope this helps,
73
ON4SKY, LX3SKY, node 2273
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by W6NJ on September 27, 2004
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Beat a dead horse????
This horse has been beat so much, it doesn't even look like a horse... :>) More like a Compaq notebook, with a bent antenna.....
Almost makes you yearn for the old No-Code debates from hell...Those didn't make my head hurt as much.
Leave poor Echolink alone. At least it doesn't tear the HF phone bands all to hell, like the stupid ARRL bandwidth proposal that will have Pactor Robots everywhere.
If it doesn't effect your operations, and is legal, let everyone enjoy the part of the hobby they enjoy.
That also goes for you folks that think I'm an old coot, who's father is a Spinasaurus, because I use CW.
Can't we just shut up on the silly stuff, and enjoy the hobby.
By the way, hobbies should be fun.....
73, Bob
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N9LYA on September 29, 2004
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Buy a radio... Talk to Austraila Directly from here to there ... Nothing but your antenna and theirs...
Thats called RADIO..
73 Jerry N9LYA
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by N9LYA on September 29, 2004
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radio
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radio: 1. Telecommunication by modulation and radiation of electromagnetic waves. (188) 2. A transmitter, receiver, or transceiver used for communication via electromagnetic waves. 3. A general term applied to the use of radio waves. [NTIA] [RR]
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This HTML version of FS-1037C was last generated on Fri Aug 23 00:22:38 MDT 1996
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by AE6IP on September 30, 2004
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Things I do that are 'radio' but not DXing:
1 Fly my r/c plane and drive my r/c car
2 gather data from remote sensors
3 run a wifi net in my house
4 impose parasitic modulation on existing standard modulation means
5 find my position using a GPSr
6 hit the repeaters when I'm driving
7 chat with road crews on their FRS radios
8 get road advice from truckers when I'm driving
9 chase counties
10 work all states
11 ragchew
and, of course, use my cell phone.
Of the first 11, only one can't be done using the ARS. But it's a receive-only activity, anyway. (Hmm... I suppose I should add scanning and SWLLing and talk radio as well.)
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KF4VGX on October 15, 2004
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by KR4WM on September 19, 2004 ,
Echolink = ham radio is an oxymoron. You cannot have VOIP involved as long as you use the word "radio" in the same sentence. Some hams seem to think that a computer on the internet is just like a microphone with a long coiled cord, and to a point, they think they are correct. But they fail to grasp the concept that they must have a radio on their desk and be talking to their party via RF for it to be "ham radio". Echolink is Ham VOIP, -NOT HAM RADIO-. Nothing wrong with it if that's what they want to use- but I sure wish they'd stop calling it radio, it's -NOT-. Call it "Ham VOIP" all you want to- it's "more correct".
-KR4WM
Web cracks me up , :)
Why is it that you think it needs to be called what you want it to be called.
Get a life , Hams will call it what they choose to call it. Freedom of choice, Not your Choice.
kf4vgx
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RE: EchoLink and Beyond
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by KF4VGX on October 15, 2004
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by KR4WM on September 19, 2004 ,
Echolink = ham radio is an oxymoron. You cannot have VOIP involved as long as you use the word "radio" in the same sentence. Some hams seem to think that a computer on the internet is just like a microphone with a long coiled cord, and to a point, they think they are correct. But they fail to grasp the concept that they must have a radio on their desk and be talking to their party via RF for it to be "ham radio". Echolink is Ham VOIP, -NOT HAM RADIO-. Nothing wrong with it if that's what they want to use- but I sure wish they'd stop calling it radio, it's -NOT-. Call it "Ham VOIP" all you want to- it's "more correct".
-KR4WM
Web cracks me up , :)
Why is it that you think it needs to be called what you want it to be called.
Get a life , Hams will call it what they choose to call it. Freedom of choice, Not your Choice.
kf4vgx
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EchoLink and Beyond
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by KG4TCJ on February 27, 2005
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ECHO Link is Great. it fits in with Ham Radio just like all the other operating modes. Sure, most of it takes place on a "PC", but it has it's place.
ECHO Link is a great way to introduce HAM Radio to the younger crowd. Let's face it, most new hams start out with 2 meter radios. What's wrong with using a computer to allow them to QSO with a DX station? Nothing!
Also, you cannot but a new radio today that doesn't have some sort of computer built in to it. Is this also wrong? I think not.
ECHO Link is a great addition to the hobby and it should be treated as such. Younger people are already into computers and being able to mix radio with computers is a great idea. Look at APRS and all the other digital modes... And sure it's not for everybody, nothing is. ECHO Link is a part of HAM radio and it has it's place.
I vote for ECHO Link and anything else that will spark more interest from the younger crowd.
Enjoy!
Wayne
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rec.radio.amateur.moderated -- 5 Yrs. Old:
Tune-In To The World -- Amateur Radio Gets People Talking:
Student Sends MIT Letter to Space:
Amateur Radio Club Talks to Hams Worldwide on Centennial:
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