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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Emergency Power -- Survival Style

Charles (KC8VWM) on September 21, 2004
View comments about this article!

Emergency Power - Survival Style

What would you say if I told you it is possible to build an effective simple battery charger for an emergency backup battery that is cheap, has no moving parts, has no generator, works day or night, and has no solar cells and when weather conditions worsens, the better it works?

What if we could harness this free energy and use it to our advantage after an emergency event such as a large-scale power blackout, or after a hurricane when we have no other methods at our disposal to charge our emergency batteries after such an event occurs?

What if I told you that most hams already have the main components of this charging system already installed at their operating locations?

Most all of us have learned to pick up our coax and to tap the PL-259 connector against the case of the radio or ground to bleed off this charge before connecting it to our radio equipment.

How few of us have ever been forced into a situation to have to think about how we can turn this everyday static problem into free energy?

It is a well-known fact that enormous charges can build up on long wire antennas and the longer the wire the more charge that it will build. Most hams think of this as a disadvantage. I would like to further explore the possibility of how we can turn this into a distinct advantage for both emergency backup power and wilderness radio energy requirements.

I know that our antennas are supposed to intercept the vertical DC current coming down from the sky. This typically represents a high voltage at a few microamps (the higher up your antenna is located off the ground, the higher the voltage values on your antenna.)

We can further validate this information by trying this little experiment that only a ham operator would actually be caught doing:

First let's hook up an NE-2 bulb from the antenna to ground, and then watch the bulb in a dark room. It should start blinking repeatedly. Once you see the bulb flashing, try hooking a few more NE-2 bulbs in series to determine how much power your antenna wire can produce. For those that may not be sure what an NE-2 bulb might look like, here is a photo at this link:

http://www.kenselectronics.com/picture3/ne2.jpg

You can "approximate" the voltage available by adding more NE-2 light bulbs into the circuit chain until they won't flash anymore.

In this experiment, we can assume that each bulb adds about 100V to the trigger voltage. If you can persuade a series chain of 10 bulbs to blink, then your antenna is probably putting out at least several hundred volts, maybe even a 1000V!

Let's start this project by choosing a good marine battery. Marine batteries will typically hold a charge longer than regular car batteries. Regular car batteries can loose a charge just sitting around at a rate of almost 2 amps a day… This means precious backup power will be literally lost into thin air! Our objective in this situation is to store as much emergency backup power in reserve as possible, for the longest period of time possible.

Generally speaking, batteries that are rated in "reserve minutes" will typically outlast batteries that are rated in "crank amps."

Next you will need a working spark plug. I prefer the V groove type, but any old spark plug will work just fine. Start by hooking up the spark plug tip to the end of your antenna wire (antenna wire described later) and then run the ground end of the spark plug (where the threads are) into the top cap of a 12-volt automotive coil. Any old salvaged working coil will do. (Of course, except for the one your wife currently uses in her car.)

It is important to choose only insulated antenna wire for this project, as this will work best. The wire should be completely insulated from end to end with no breaks or soldered connections anywhere in-between. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether you lay it out in a straight line, is a looped antenna configuration, or if it weaves back and forth. Length is the key, not its footprint size.

Old discarded phone line, old cable TV coax, practically any wire that is insulated and long will provide satisfactory results provided that you don't tear the neighbor's cable TV wire out of his lawn, you shouldn't have any problems using any type of insulated wire for this project.

To connect the coil to the battery, we will use the bottom connector of the automotive coil that is normally connected to the points in your car. This will now be connected to the positive side of your emergency battery. The negative post of the battery is simply hooked up to a good earth ground.

You can make this work in field, wilderness or portable radio operations by driving a temporary ground rod into the earth and then connect the ground directly to the negative post on your battery.

Next we install a 1 to 3 KV capacitor. The capacitor value will work best if it is around a few picofared like those typically found in the horizontal section of a television chassis. The capacitor is then connected from ground back to the wire where the top of the spark plug is connected to the antenna.

Nothing should be touching ground except the ground post of the battery. Approx. 200 feet of insulated wire will completely charge a 12 volt deep cycle every 2 or 3 days! A thousand feet of wire will do it a lot quicker but the voltages will approach lethal levels.

This works as a charging system because the long antenna wire acts like a capacitor building an electric charge on the antenna wire. When a few thousand volts are reached, it will be discharge by "sparking" across the spark plug. The spark plug then delivers the electric charge to the coil, which in turn "down-converts" it to a few hundred volts. The electricity is then injected into the battery from the coil. The coil works by "pulsing" the charge into the battery at regular discharge intervals.

The weather controls how much static electricity is in the air at any given time during the course of the day or night. This electricity is then made available for charging our battery.

The real advantage of this particular charging system during an emergency situation is that the worst the weather gets, the more electricity you will have at your disposal for charging your battery.

When conditions such as wind and super cold air are frequently persistent, you will be able to weld the fillings in your teeth together! ...Be careful!

The higher you get the insulated wire of the ground, the better it will work in capturing DC current from the air for this highly effective, but low cost emergency battery charging system.

For more information on emergency power and similar projects, you are cordially invited to visit my website:

http://www.angelfire.com/on/cbushell/solar/solar1.html

73

Charles - KC8VWM

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KI4ENY on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Excellent idea! As a fairly new ham, I was not sure what I should do to get emergency battery power. I live in Fort Lauderdale Florida. Due to the fact that there have been several tropical storms and hurricanes in our area (Francis especially), I have not really known what I could do to get emergency battery power easily without buying expensive batteries and such. I will definitely think about this type of battery system, and I might just try it.
73,
Chris, KI4ENY
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
If you had a 35AH deep cycle battery it would take a constant current of at least 500mA to completely charge it in 3 days. I seriously doubt that you will ever get that kind of energy from the static build up on an antenna.

By the way, radio signals are RF which is AC. Our antennas are not designed to intercept DC current coming down out of the sky.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KG4RUL on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
And then there is "Flash Charge Mode", commonly known as Lightning!

Dennis KG4RUL :)
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have not really known what I could do to get emergency battery power easily without buying expensive batteries and such...
-----------------------------------------------
There is no easy, inexpensive way to get long term emergency power for anything other than a QRP rig. It is one thing to run a 5W radio or a single light bulb. It's quite another if you need to power refrigerators, well pumps, sewage pumps, etc.

A generator is good for short term (24 hours perhaps) but most of us do not have gas storage capacity in our homes. In many places you are restricted to a 5 gal can plus whatever can be held in the generator. If the power is out then you will not be able to run up to the gas station and buy more. Charles does make some very good points on his web site.

Solar power to charge batteries can be useful in many parts of the country. Probably not so good in the northwest. It's also very expensive if you want a system large enough to power the essential things in your house.

A wind generator would be good if you live in a windy area and are in a location that will permit you to put up a windmill. Again very expensive - tower, generator, regulator, battery bank, inverter, etc. And you've got to test and maintain all that stuff if you expect it to be ready when the power outage hits.

We have become so dependent on our utilities that it is nearly impossible to be self sufficient. About the only thing most of us can do for a long term outage is to have enough gas in our car to get out of the area.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KZ1X on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles

With all due respect to what is otherwise a very creative idea, I think you need to do a watt-hour calculation here and see what's missing from your math.

 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K0RFD on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Great idea, Charles. Ranks right up there with perpetual motion and the thousand-mile-per-gallon carburetor that the oil companies won't let people sell. But why mess around with puny picoamps of current from static electricity? Why not just ground one terminal of your battery and attach the other terminal to a wire attached to a kite that you fly during a thunderstorm? Once you figure out which terminal to attach to the kite, you only have to overcome the exploding-battery problem to commercialize this idea.

Next project: harnessing the earth's electric field by attaching a short loop of wire across the battery. Stand back though...

Thomas Edison said "The secret to having good ideas is having lots of ideas." Keep at it.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"By the way, radio signals are RF which is AC."

Thank you for the response. I can understand the skeptism or confusion you and others may have about this charging system however, this article is not about using RF radio signals or even AC current for that matter.

It is about the process of harnessing static energy from a capacitive element and then converting it into useful energy for charging the electrolyte in a battery system.

"Our antennas are not designed to intercept DC current coming down out of the sky."

Is it fair to say that your statement is suggesting that our antenna's do not acquire a static charge on them?


The battery charging method I have described is not achieved by directly attaching your antenna to intercept any DC energy out of the sky.

It is rather in the fact that we are using the existing static buildup on the antenna and then utilizing a method of releasing and storing that energy into the battery.

73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K0RFD on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I don't think there's much confusion, except that I thought you were kidding and decided to kid you back.

But since you're serious, measure the current and do some calculations. Compare the number of electrons available at your antenna terminal to the number of electrons you'd need to put into that battery to charge it. Yes, antennas do develop static charges, the voltages are high, but the currents are vanishingly small. The static charges are a curiosity, a nuisance, a liability to CMOS circuitry unless bled off, but are sufficiently small that you would have a hard time charging a battery with them in less time than it would take for the battery to self-discharge.

I think that's where the skepticism comes from.
But hey--if you can make it work, you'll die a rich man while I die hopelessly mired in the lower middle class because of my own skepticism. Go get 'em.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"I think you need to do a watt-hour calculation here and see what's missing from your math."

I am not suggesting you can run your deep freeze or other "watt hour" appliances.

The article is intended to explore how a battery can be charged using the existing static build up from your antenna system over a period of time.

- Nothing more, nothing less


73

Charles - KC8VWM








 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N2MR on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Regular car batteries can loose a charge just sitting around at a rate of almost 2 amps a day"

Looks like a self discharge rate of about 24 watts/day.
Can static charging overcome this?

Mark.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N4ZOU on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have been thinking about this for a while and I think it is possible. The automotive ignition coil is dropping the high voltage built up on the wire dropping it to a lower manageable voltage and in the process having the current increase. Also pulse charging is a completely different animal to the chemicals in the battery. It's like the old apple to oranges example. What your doing is causing a chemical reaction in the battery. A steady state current across the plates is one way to charge it and pulse charging, in this case a high voltage, low current charge is injected into the chemical causing the reaction required with a fast pulse. I forget the NASA project that tried this with a satellite in space which failed not due to it simply not working but a problem with the winch to let the cable out and retrieve it. If NASA thought it would work to replace solar cells then it should work here also.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Looks like a self discharge rate of about 24 watts/day. Can static charging overcome this?

Mark. "


Good question Mark.. That is why I specifically don't recommend using a regular car battery in this project.

73

Charles - KC8VWM

 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N9SX on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Skip all that long wire stuff. Just put on your slippers and shuffle across the carpet. I did the calculations and you can charge up a AA NiCd in about 6 years. This is great!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA5ZNU on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This idea is not as far-fetched as it seems. There was an entire conference on environmental energy recently, part of the DARPA-sponsored effort on "smart dust", and one idea for powering these devices is to use high-value "ultracapacitors" to harness vibrational or thermal energy.

Here is a good overview, or read mine below:
http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~tparsons/PisterPublications/2001/DSSG_Pister.pdf


What is smart dust?

The idea behind "smart dust" is to make really small, really cheap equipment, each unit with a tiny sensor, tiny radio, and tiny computer, and then scatter them about and let them form a mesh network to relay their readings. The UC Berkeley "Mote" project produced a small 3 inch board, and has recently spun off a company to make a smaller one.

How do they get power?

These devices need power, and there are a few ways to get and store them.

For storage, they often use Ultra Capacitors. Ultra Capacitors come in heretofore unheard of sizes, like 35 Farads. Some are exactly D cell sized, and can discharge in a few seconds to support a huge current inrush, such as for a high-power RF alert or a motor starting. Others are smaller (1F or so) and fit on small boards such as the Mote (though not the Mote in particular).

The recent conference had sections on charging these capacitors from piezoelectric crystals to harness vibration (i.e., from being attached to a piece of moving equipment), thermal energy with a thermocouple, and solar. I don't recall a section on static electricity, but given that the Leyden Jar was originally charged from static electricity and could pack a wallop, I see no reason that a Maxwell Ultracapacitor could not be used to harness static from an antenna.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NK7J on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well, sound like a keen idea.

But maybe I am missing something here. Lets assume you have a 1000 V static build up on your wire, then it discharges across the spark plug through the coil and into the battery. Ok at 1000V what amount of amperage are we talking about? I dont know, never tried to figure it out or read what we would be dealing with. Lets assume (since I really dont know) we have 1mA of current (I think it would even be less but again I dont know) that would equal out to 1W of available power.
Now say it takes a minute to charge back to 1000V again for the next discharge. Now Lets assume during it discharge it takes 2 seconds to "relay" the 1000V to the battery through the coil. So every hour you have 120 Seconds or 2 minutes worth of chargin at 1W avaiable power. That works out to about 3% duty duty cycle on your charge system.
Now with that duty cycle you now have an avaiable power capacity of .03 Watts.
Given that a battery will loose 2AH as stated on a given day that works out to about 24 Watts of charging capicty needed per day to keep status qou.

Now if we had 20kV on the wire before discharge that would equal out to about 20 Watts of avaiable power. Using the one minute charge time that equals out to about .6 Watts per hour of avaiable power.

I think the concept is neat but unless I am missing something it does not pan out on paper.

Interesting reading though, thanks.

Jack NK7J
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NK7J on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Boy looks like I need to use spell check before posting sheesh.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I know that our antennas are supposed to intercept the vertical DC current coming down from the sky.
-------------------------------------------
Since our antennas are supposed to intercept radio signals I surmised that you thought radio signals were "vertical DC current coming down from the sky".

Question - how do you know what polarity the static discharge will be? Is it always the same? You could be reverse charging the battery unless you provide a bridge rectifier on the output of the ignition coil.

I still doubt that there is enough average current from static discharge to charge any battery large enough to run a transceiver. Even if you had a QRP rig with say a 7AH battery, the charger would be hard pressed to provide enough current to keep up with the self discharge rate much less the average radio current.

But the answer is simple; build one and see how it works.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KZ1X on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles

You wrote:

"I am not suggesting you can run your deep freeze or other "watt hour" appliances."

Indeed; I did not assume you meant that. All devices are "watt hour" devices, including the battery or ultracapacitor you might otherwise use.

For example, ignoring the battery or dielectric losses, my HT is certainly a watt hour device. If I opearte it for one hour with the power saver on, and don't transmit, it consumes 22 milliAmperes of current at 7.2 Volts. That 0.1584 watts for one hour.

A typical static discharge from a 40 meter dipole in a stiff wind is 6 kV at 275 nanoamperes, with a "repeat" cycle as frequently as every 120 seconds.

0.00165 watts of power from one static charge ... available 30 times an hour, equals 0.0495 watts in that hour.

Do you see where this is going? Even if you assume you can capture and store ALL of the power with NO loss, and that it is ALWAYS available, you haven't a prayer of getting even with an ordewr of magnitude of what you need.

I *really* am not trying to rain on your parade, nor to dissuade you from being creative like this.

"The article is intended to explore how a battery can be charged using the existing static build up from your antenna system over a period of time. "

Yes, I understand. It's just that some basic math will be necessary in order to make this workable.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

You are charging Nicads using traditional charging rate formulations and methods using traditional battery charging methods.. ie 500mA wallwart at 12 volts for a specific period of time etc.

We are taking about using non traditional electrical capacitance as the basis for charging a battery in the form of highly charged "pulse" containing a few hundred (that's 100's of volts) each time the sparkplug activates the ignition coil.

The same electrical forumations you use would not apply as in the case of charging a nicad cell because we are using a highly charged "pulse" to change a different kind of battery chemistry.

Pulse charging the plates in the cell with a few hundered volts delivered at periodic intervals when the spark plug is activated through the release of that energy to the ignition coil, which in turn will deliver a bursting pulse of energy to the battery.

This project is similar in context to how a strobe light works. There is a build up of energy and when that energy reaches a certain level, the strobe light releases a high intensity burst of light energy.

Therefore we must conclude that it is entirely possible to operate a 1000 volt bulb, using nothing more but a 1.5 volt D cell battery. ..

But wait? ..How is it possible to turn a 1000 volt light bulb "On" using only a 1.5 volt battery?

In our case we are "flashing" the batery back to full charging state in this same respect every time the ignition coil releases an energized pulse into the battery.

We are charging the battery by changing its chemistry in this respect.


Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Question - how do you know what polarity the static discharge will be? Is it always the same? "


You are using traditional thinking models in reaching your conclusions...

In our case, we are changing the batteries' chemistry characteristics through a series of high voltage electrical pulses.

Charging the battery, in this respect is related to the idea of altering the physical chemistry of the battery and not to the idea of the big red wire on the red battery terminal, and the big black wire on the negative terminal etc..etc..


73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I *really* am not trying to rain on your parade, nor to dissuade you from being creative like this."

KZ1X:

Steven (and others), we are all mostly hams in this forum correct? I am always receptive and I welcome your and any else's comments or point of view on this and any subject for that matter.

The very nature of this article is intended to do what hams like to do best;

"Explore the Unexplored"

To all the so called Critics, Flamers, or Believers alike:

:)

I would like to take this oppotunity to thank each and every one of you who is actively participating in this discussion thread.

I am finding this article to be very enlightening and interesting. My hope is that this experiment will provide a bit of a change and encourage you to think outside the box.

...Let me be very clear on one thing:

This is about experimenting with Amateur Radio!

Remember, in Amateur Radio ... Anything Goes.

That is why we all proudly call ourselves "Hams"

Let's hear everyone's thoughts, the good, bad and the ugly... get it all out.

That is precisely the idea behind this creative thinking process.


Again, Thank You.


73 DE Charles KC8VWM

 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
In our case, we are changing the batteries' chemistry characteristics through a series of high voltage electrical pulses.
-------------------------------------------
Well, so does the normal charging method change the chemistry. Are you saying that you can charge a lead acid battery by pulsing it with a high voltage, regardless of polarity, and without putting in as much total energy as you took out? Where does the energy in the battery come from? It sounds like you are attempting to create energy by making the battery deliver more than you are putting in.

If you can do this it would appear to me that you should be a rich man :-) Have you ever tried it?
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Interesting idea, but Im not sure if an antennas static discharge is enough to charge a battery large enough to be of any real use in an emergency. I have my own crazy idea to add for some emergency power. I never tried this, but perhaps someone would like to try this to see if it can work.

My idea is to take a typical car alternator with built in regulator. Say a GM style 100 amp unit with single wire stator connection. And power it from a bicycle. (told ya it was a crazy idea!) You would have to securely mount the alternator and the bike so they wouldnt be wobbling around while pedaling. The drive could be as simple as pulling the rear tire and tube off the bikes rim, and slipping an automotive serpentine belt (or any suitable belt) over the exposed rim and alternator pulley for drive.

Now, I realize that a human wont be able to power this alternator to anywhere near full capacity, but even if it produces a lowly 5 amps of DC power, this is plenty to charge a car type or marine type battery with some time. I believe it can produce more current, but this remains to be seen. The biggest hurdles to overcome would be belt slippage and the load produced on the person pedaling. Perhaps a geared type of bicycle like a mountain bike would be suitable for this as the gearing would provide a mechanical advantage of torque for the pedaler. Also the bike rim diameter vs the pulley diameter of the alternator means that the alternator should spin at a fairly high rpm if its lightly loaded. One problem I see with this would be too high a speed advantage. The bike rim is many times the pulley diameter and this would require pretty substantial torque to overcome the load on the alternator. Maybe a smaller bike like a kids 20 inch style would be better? This requires experimentation to find out.

The trick would be to not let the battery go totally flat or you would never be able to recharge it due to not having stator power to energize the alternator. I think if properly rigged up, this could work and provide a small limited supply of charging current for emergency batteries when no fuel or engine type generators are available. This is just a thought off the top and I havent tried this, but it would be an interesting experiment.



 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4MOB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KE4ZHN...better idea: instead of riding the bicycle, take the wheel/axle off. Put some plastic crosswise through the spokes...and mount it over a creek.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Another twist on my idea is, if you were to take a DC brush type motor and drive it in this manner, it becomes a small generator. More food for thought.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KE4MOB. Good idea...assuming you have a creek nearby...otherwise youd be up that same creek without a paddle... :-)
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC2MMI on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Everything old is new again.

I read about a circuit (circa 1970) and built it from a "cookbook" designed for a trick one better. They were grabbing broadcast frequency energy and rectifying it out as a trickle battery charger. The idea was that as long as one of the clear channel stations was pumping 50,000+ kw out on the air, someone might as well use it.<G>

Not the same as static, but "power from nothing" all the same.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KV6O on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, if you have a stiff wind, how about 1.5KW of home brew power?

http://www.otherpower.com/

Looks really cool! And from what I have seen from local ordnances (esp. here in CA), municipalities are more likely to approve a tower supporting a generator – who’s to say it can’t support an antenna as well??

Thought I’d add a “spark” to this “static” thread! OUCH!

SteveL
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have often toyed with the idea of using a small DC motor and connecting a paddle wheel inside the rain downspout to generate electricity.

Crazy eh?

:)



 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4MOB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Two words: Nikola Tesla
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by W2DUG on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM wrote:
"I have often toyed with the idea of using a small DC motor and connecting a paddle wheel inside the rain downspout to generate electricity.

Crazy eh?"

Not quite as crazy as charging a battery with the static buildup on an antenna! There's much more energy available in running water, plus it would be much easier to store the energy converted this way more efficiently. If you have a "downspout generator" installed on all your downspouts and you live in a rainy area, you might actually have a shot at making this work in a practical way. But like any energy conversion system, efficiency makes all the difference. Factors like paddlewheel/turbine geometry, ohmic losses in the wiring, generator output vs. paddlewheel speed, etc. would all need to be considered.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KR6EL on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I live in Mojave, Ca. Here I have seen some extreame static distarges from antennas. The first during my CB days, my whip mounted on the roof of my truck, no coax connected discharged a spark at the connecter every second like a spark plug! Another time from a dipole I had but not so bad. I have asked some hams for a explantion, none. If I might stray a little I was tuning a 6 meter dipole with my MFJ anyliser & forgot to turn it off when I put my soldering iron to the coax...a inch or so spark shot out of the soldering iron! much be somthing to do with resonant freqs! Had to buy new 50 ohm restisters from MFJ for the bridge...Yes I'm straying but thought might be intersting
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
lol, I appreciate that.

Trust me until you have tried this experiment for yourself, you won't really know it actually works.

The following file relates to similar current experiments by Jon Snell who has been doing with what is dubbed as the "E.V. Gray capacitive discharge motor."

.. And I quote:

Capacitive Discharge Motor - J Snell

"He sends CEME pulses directly to the batteries. That's not really healthy for the plates. This circuit only accepts a small trickle of power from the outside to top off Cl and C2. It can then run a small generator or alternator circuit to provide current to charge the batteries."

"If you place a highly inductive electromagnet in place of the bulb in the example above, you'll have a magnetic field produced that doesn't "consume" any power. Heater elements can be used the same way! This proves that all electromagnetism, heat and light are produced in electrical circuits by the "zero point" energy and the electricity is just a catalyst!!!"

- End Quote -

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ak/egel/gcarter.html


Here's another interesting link for Tesla fans describing his secret of "wireless transmission of energy to a distance without losses."

http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s38.htm


73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N8BOA on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have read about someone "playing" with this idea or at least a form of it. wind power directly in to electricity but they used water misters to help carry the electrons from one wire grid to the other they had a engery loss in the system from the pumps for the water and the wind always had to come from the right direction for it to work well.

N8BOA
Sean
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The only antenna I've had that exibited regular static build up was a "V" beam with open wire feeders in Jacksonville, FL where each leg was 250 feet, suspended over a small lake. That mostly occurred on a dry, windy day rather than during a storm. I suppose that during a storm the water had enough resistance to keep any static from building up. As I recall it didn't happen enought to provide any reliable source of energy.

Again I ask, has anyone actually built one of these and proved that it reliably charged a battery?
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NS5U on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
How many Ham engineers does it take to recognize a silly idea? The traffic this thread has drawn goes to demonstrate our increasingly irrelevance to society. I thought the code requirement kept the rifraf out:-)
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KV6O Steve..Thats a very cool site! I love the homebrew alternators and windmills. These folks really know how to improvise. Im sure it beats living in the boonies without power at all!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KB8UFF on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"My idea is to take a typical car alternator with built in regulator (attached to a bicycle)."


Not so crazy, a person on a bike can generate about 200 to 300 watts of power. Spurts of 500 are possible. A horse on a bike can generate 746 watts for a full minute.

Mark
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KB8UFF on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

This is an interesting idea and very creative. I hope you try to make it work. That being said, here is my 2 cents.

First, the folks that feel that there is not enough power available are most likely correct. But, if they are not and you are able to charge a battery you will find that you are wasting power, not saving it.

Since the antenna is storing static energy, it is a capacitor. Capacitors, like batteries, draw current while charging and cease to draw current when charged. When you dicharge the static from an antenna, current will be drawn from the antenna to re-charge it that normally not be required. The power diverted to charging up the antenna with static electricity will be power that should have been used by your antenna for the radiation of radio waves.

If the amount of RF loss by this process is negligeble, then the loss that would occur by turning your radio down would also be negligeble and the saved power could be used to charge your battery sans the losses of all the additional equipment.

This is kind of like putting a solar cell on your flashlight lens to charge it's own batteries.

Cheers and 73,

Mark
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K5LXP on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM:

You evaded the question of the energy transferred to the battery with this statement:

"we are changing the batteries' chemistry characteristics through a series of high voltage electrical pulses."

I'll let it ride for a moment that if you change the battery's chemistry it's not a battery anymore, so let's figure it from the other direction. Since you won't tell us how much energy we're getting to charge (change the chemistry of) the battery, how much energy in watt hours can we remove from the battery and still maintain it's nominal state of charge? Since I would use the faulty method of using joules through a spark gap, you'll have to provide us with the new methods of measurement and calculation of this chemistry changing phenomenon.

You also said:

"Marine batteries will typically hold a charge longer than regular car batteries."

This is true, but they also have a higher internal impedance than car batteries. Why would you pick an inefficient battery like fooded PbA? An AGM will beat both of those kinds of batteries in terms of efficiency and self discharge.

Let's see some empirical data on the model of your generator- you did build one, didn't you?

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K1CJS on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wouldn't you need a small string of mayonaise jar capacitors hooked up too, just to store up enough charge for it to be useful? Seems to me I heard that--maybe it was from the Hellmann's salesman??? ;-)
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KG4VYK on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
A really neat idea. And next April 1, when the lightening returns, I intend to charge all my batteries with sky power.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KA0PWW on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

I am most impressed with your idea. I know now there is
hope for this world and the future of amateur radio.
I have designed, built, and perfected a perpetual motion machine that has powered my 1949 Henway
for 5 years now.
Since reading your article I may have come up with a way to use your idea in order to get my machine to stop. If it doesn't work then I guess I will have to
reverse the Earth's magnetic poles and see if that will
get it stop.


Best of luck.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WT0A on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
whats a henway?
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by W8JI on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

The current is too low to charge a AAA nicad or a hearing aid battery. I wouldn't worry about a freezer!

Better just use a solar cell and be done with it.

73 Tom
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WT0A on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Or.... you could store the energy in a Greek urn.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WT0A on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
About $4.50 an hour......don't get me started.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- how about this instead?  
by NN2G on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
How about having several working crystal radio sets and somehow combining them altogether and tapping the power off of it?

How would one combine the power or convert it to DC? Im sure someone could come up with a working model in no time.


It is "free energy", though the only drawback would be the miniscule amount of power generated and... if there is a blackout and the broadcasters are affected, then no current would flow through the crystal sets.

At best whatever power obtained might trickle charge a aa alkaline battery or two... though it too is worth trying!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- how about this instead?  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Tom, he says that you can't use standard electronic theory. Somehow the pulses make the battery chemistry change and deliver current without ever having to resupply the current by charging. He's found a way to create energy!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WT0A on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
What a tough crowd. (Is this thing on?)
At least Charles is thinking outside the box and getting a start at something. Might want to try a few practical experiments before bouncing it off this bunch though.
Glen
 
RE: Emergency Power -- how about this instead?  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You've got to be careful about hooking up too many crystal sets. If you suck all the RF out of the air then ham radio as we know it will cease to exist! No point in having emergency power if you can't run your radio with it.

How about hooking up a string of those thermal junctions. Then all you need is heat. Lets see - if I tourch the house I can stay on the air for at least a couple of hours :-)
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by OBSERVER on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Very creative article and I admire you for thinking "out of the box". However as a few pointed out, the amount of current that would be generated would be quickly consumed by the control circuitry. If the electrode where placed several thousand feet of off the ground, the ability to generate a higher level of current would be possible. However the I2R losses in the conductor from the electrode in the sky leading towards earth would negate the current gain. Also the structure required to secure the electrode would be cost prohibitive.

All of the potential (voltage) in the world does nothing if you lack drive (current). Inversely, all of the drive in the world does nothing if you lack potential. You need both potential and drive to create work.

It would be best for you to shelve the idea and seek a more reliable source of free energy like wind, hydro and last but not least solar!

Troll.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Again I ask, has anyone actually built one of these and proved that it reliably charged a battery?"

Answer: Yes

Reliable?

In what context? Can you run an electric fence on it 24 hours a day ...not!

Can you power a cluster of LED's for a duration of time ... probobly yes...

Will this be enough energy to power a low powered QRP rig for a short duration?... Perhaps even long enough to send out an emergency signal?

You tell me...Your a ham.. If I have enough energy to run a few LED cluster lights for a few hours a day can I somehow make this same energy work and run a PC board sized QRP rig to send out an emergency transmission?

I get the impression that some people are thinking this charging unit will run your IC 7800 rig at full TX power. I never made this claim...


Can you store capacitive energy? Yes. Again I refer you to some of J Snell's work on capacitive motors.

Here's a link:

http://www.angelfire.com/ak/egel/gcarter.html



"Since the antenna is storing static energy, it is a capacitor. Capacitors, like batteries, draw current while charging and cease to draw current when charged."


Reply: You are not understanding the concept. The antenna itself is not the storage device. Here's the instructions again:

"Next we install a 1 to 3 KV capacitor. The capacitor value will work best if it is around a few picofared like those typically found in the horizontal section of a television chassis. The capacitor is then connected from ground back to the wire where the top of the spark plug is connected to the antenna."



"Marine batteries will typically hold a charge longer than regular car batteries."

This is true, but they also have a higher internal impedance than car batteries. Why would you pick an inefficient battery like fooded PbA? An AGM will beat both of those kinds of batteries in terms of efficiency and self discharge. "

Answer: This statement you provide is true however the information was provided in the context that the typical car battery is an inefficient battery to use for the project. I am in no way denying the fact that there are many other more efficient batteries to choose from for the project.

However due to the pulsating effect of the energy recieved on the battery plates from the capacitor and ignition coil, (not good for batteries) it might be better to choose a battery of lower cost or of lesser value.



"we are changing the batteries' chemistry characteristics through a series of high voltage electrical pulses."

I'll let it ride for a moment that if you change the battery's chemistry it's not a battery anymore"


Reply: Changing the battery chemistry is a chemical reaction process, not a physical metamorphosis process as you seem to have gathered by reading the statement suggesting, "it's not a battery anymmore."



"The current is too low to charge a AAA nicad or a hearing aid battery. I wouldn't worry about a freezer! Better just use a solar cell and be done with it."

Reply: The current to run a crystal radio set is also very low, however it DOES provide many with a means of listening to radio broadcasts especially during the great depression when many could not afford to purchase dry cell batteries.

The "current" in this case can consist of a few hundered volts every time the capacitor discharges into the battery. ...Not exactly miniscule.


Conclusions:

We are not operating equipment directly from the low and miniscule amount of static buildup on the antenna.

Consider how a strobe light works for a moment. It functions by collecting a very small amount of energy. It only requires 1.5 volts from a single "D" dry cell battery and then it transforms that same low voltage energy and operates a high powered 7,500 volt strobe light. How can this be?

We are using similar priciples for charging our battery with the low voltage on the antenna system.

Here's a photo of a 7,500 volt strobe light that operates on a single 1.5 volt battery:

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-seso1.html

73

Charles


 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE5BXY on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Many years ago I installed a field mill system that measures the electric field in the air. It indicated values as high as 10,000 v/m when there was a 20 mph wind and a little dust in the air.
My main backup is my 1956 Columbia bicycle with the optional friction generator that powers the headlight and taillight. The problem with this system is convincing the XYL to keep pedaling.
Keep up the good work as backup power sources will be worth their weight in gold before the year is over.
Bobby
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE6VG on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is great! Keep those brain cells active.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- how about this instead?  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Tom, he says that you can't use standard electronic theory."


Before you gang up on me in a mob, lol...


Again, this appears to be yet another assertion...


Here's what I said,

"You are charging Nicads using traditional charging rate formulations and methods using traditional battery charging methods.. ie 500mA wallwart at 12 volts for a specific period of time etc.

We are taking about using non traditional electrical capacitance as the basis for charging a battery in the form of a highly charged "pulse" containing a few hundred (that's 100's of volts) each time"


I am merely trying to convey my ideas and experiences the best way I can describe. What the reader does with that information, or how they interpret that information is clearly up to the individual reader.

However that's okay, I appreciate and welcome everyone's comments and suggestions on the subject.

Of course in the perfect world, all is good if we are all thinking about this idea in terms of how it DOES work, and not in terms of how it does NOT work.

I am not trying to change the laws of electricity. I am simply experimenting with it.

I assure you that I am attempting to provide you this information the best it can be accurately described.

It is somewhat difficult in the sense that one has to be careful of how information supplied is later intepreted by the reader.

73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
Hmmmm  
by KA4KOE on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You must be bored, Charles. Anyway, the burning question on mine, and everyone else's mind is how can this concept be applied to the improvement of the ubiquitous fan dipole?
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"how can this concept be applied to the improvement of the ubiquitous fan dipole?"


Actually, that is a very interesting and intriguing question.

Where is our fan dipole expert when you need him?

:)

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Hmmmm  
by AA4PB on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I checked out the web site you referenced, Charles. I see some problems with his "theory". For example, he states that power is not consumed by the selenoids. While it is true that power is not consumed by inductance, in the real world the inductors are wound with wire. Wire has resistance and that resistance converts electrical energy to heat energy.

In his bulb experiments the bulb converts electrical energy to heat and light energy. The fact that you use capacitors to circulate the energy doesn not prevent it from exiting the "loop" by being converted to some other form (heat or light for example). Even the capacitors themselves have losses that convert energy - especially the large sizes that he is using.

This is sort of the same thing as trying to build a perpetual motion machine by connecting a motor to a generator and the generator back to the motor. It doesn't work because of the losses involved. Energy doesn't stay in the "loop" because some of it is always converted to some other form (usually heat) by the various losses.

I maintain that the law of the conservation of energy (energy can never be created or destroyed - it can only be converted from one form to another) means that you can never take more energy out of a battery than you put into it. In fact, because of the losses in a battery you have to put more into it than you take out or it will eventually be discharged. Proof of this is that a battery will eventually discharge even if there is no load on it. The fact that you discharge a capacitor into the battery doesn't change this law.

Unless you are in a very dry, windy environment where a lot of static electricity is generated I doubt that you could ever obtain enough energy to keep up with the self discharge rate of any battery large enough to power even a QRP rig. Now maybe if you were located next door to a 50KW AM station - but that wouldn't be static electricity.

At any rate, hook it up and give it a try yourself and let us know what you find. No fair just pulsing a little neon bulb however. Charge a battery that can do something usefull like light a flashlight bulb or power a QRP rig for 30 minutes.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by VE7NGR on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
A number of people are either getting rather sloppy, or else don't have a basic understanding of the difference between current, power, and energy.

Come on folks - this is incredibly basic electrical theory, and is something that hams should understand!

Here are a few statements that caught my eye (probably not an exhaustive list):

"batteries can loose a charge ... of almost 2 amps a day"

"Looks like a self discharge rate of about 24 watts/day."

"A typical static discharge from a 40 meter dipole in a stiff wind is 6 kV at 275 nanoamperes, with a "repeat" cycle as frequently as every 120 seconds. 0.00165 watts of power from one static charge ... available 30 times an hour, equals 0.0495 watts in that hour."

"if you assume you can capture and store ALL of the power"

"even if it produces a lowly 5 amps of DC power"
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry Brian....a lowly 5 amps of DC current.....lol Scheesh!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K5LXP on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
" one has to be careful of how information supplied is later intepreted by the reader."

It's all BS until you back it up with data. I see lots of enviro-nutballs with over-unity devices frequently, but their ideas never seem to be able to be duplicated anywhere else. Charles- if you want to be taken seriously, *build* one of these things and show us the data. No one else is going to bother building it just to disprove you. QST ran an article a while back about a guy using a long antenna to rectify broadcast station RF to charge a battery. It was a pitifully small amount of energy but he had *data*. Construct the experiment, build the widget, gather the data. You chose what may probably be the most critical and educated of audiences to present this to, if you can't back it up with reasonably credible data you ain't gonna sell it here.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by VE7NGR on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Sorry Brian....a lowly 5 amps of DC current.....lol Scheesh!"

Richard, your "DC power" statement is forgiveable - I assume you were using the same sense of the word we use when we talk about power lines, power outages, etc. Not technically correct, but common usage. I almost didn't include your comment, but figured since I was on my soapbox, what the hey, I may as well pick on you too! :-) Hope you can forgive me! :-)

Some of the comments and calculations in this thread, however, just don't make sense at all.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"A typical static discharge from a 40 meter dipole in a stiff wind is 6 kV at 275 nanoamperes, with a "repeat" cycle as frequently as every 120 seconds. 0.00165 watts of power from one static charge ... available 30 times an hour, equals 0.0495 watts in that hour."

According to my calculations;

Watts divided by Volts = Amps

0.00165 / 6000 volts = 2.75,

not 275.. not 0.000275 etc.

2.75 amps at 6000 volts.

Now here's another question:

What happens to current (amps) when you use a stepdown transformer to lower the voltage to a lesser value?

...Anyone?


Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by VE7NGR on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

That calculation was correct (KZ1X's, not yours) up to the point where he got 1.65 mW. It's the rest of his statement that doesn't make sense. Assuming the current flow and voltage are constant for the duration of the discharge, there would be 1.65mW of *during* the discharge. Talking about the amount of power per discharge doesn't make sense - that should be energy, and it is a function of power *and time*. The number of watts in an hour also doesn't make sense - that should also be energy (Joules, Watt-hours, whatever).

0.00165 / 6000 volts = 2.75

You only give units for one of the three quantities, so it is unclear what you mean, however:

1.65 mW / 6 kV = 275 nA

You are off by seven orders of magnitude.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N6AJR on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have also heard and tried to be convinced that you can put either a 1.. large coil of wire on a insulated pole or 2.. a very long piece of wire and run it parallel to a hi tension line and it will induce a current in the coil/wire and you can then use this for your own power...

it sounds good and we know a coil in an AC field will make current. BUT to get that close to be effective you have to trespass on the right of way for the power company ( their legal easement) and get so close to the power lines you will draw an arc..

but it sounds good on paper.

I mean you can see it works.. put an antenna on a field strenght meter and transmit near by.. it will cause a current to flow and moove the needle, but it ain't goint to charge a battery, their ain't no free lunch
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
No harm done Brian...I was just pokin a little fun back at ya.
 
bzzzz ....  
by KZ1X on September 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Brian VE7NGR:

I see how I might have made little sense, as I "set" the discharge period to 1 second arbitrarily, to try and make the point clearly, yet failed to state the denominator. Is that what you took issue with? I certianly want to make sure I am communicating properly.

The figure of 1.65 mW/sec is the 'available' energy from one 'spark' which can be derived experimentally (I've actually tried to do this before and was successful; it's called a Van de Graaf generator, but I used dripping water to create the charge).

My next assumption, and please tell me where I went awry, was that, assumptively, I could create a lossless collector for the 1.65 mW/sec of energy I get, and store these energy pulses up.

This is kind of what is being suggested in this experiment, no?

If I did that for an hour, with a pulse every two minutes, I'd get .... 49.5 milliWatt/seconds of energy.

I guess that's 49.5 mW for one second, or is it 1 mw for 49.5 seconds? In any case, even if it WAS possible to losslessly collect and recover all this juice, it's a vanishingly small amount of energy. Not enough to power anything useful I can think of, and most certainly not enough to charge a chemical battery.

The net of all this is that Charles would be better off trying to derive power from some other source.

Such as, insects. Believe it or not, if you take a subminiature Mabuchi DC motor, with a small 3 blade fan on it (as used in some cooling systems) then glue a thin thread on each fan blade, then tie each thread to the leg of a housefly, the three flies will fly about in a circle chasing each other, thus turning the motor and generating a WHALE of a lot more power than the weird Leyden jar described in this article.

DON'T ask me how I know this.

 
RE: bzzzz ....  
by VE7NGR on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Steve, I have no idea what a mW/s is supposed to be.

Power is energy over time. 1 watt = 1 joule/second. 1 watt/s = 1 joule/s^2, which is obviously not energy! 1 watt * 1 second = 1 W*s = 1 Joule, and THAT is energy.

If you said 1.65mW*s (or 1.65 mJ) that would make sense.

If you think of a water analogy - let's say I have a pipe with water flowing at 1 litre/second - it makes no sense to say that in 1 hour I got 60 litres/second of water out of the pipe (your original message), or 60 litres/s^2 of water (your most recent message). In 1 hour I got 60 litres of water out of the pipe.

Water flow is not really analogous to power (but rather to current), but hopefully you get the idea.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KD6BWE on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Simple... Power is always conserved. So if we ignore loses to heat (resistence of wire in transformer). A step down transformer will increase the current handling limit by the inverse of the amount that the voltage was reduced.

Since power is conserved:

We find

that Power in = Power out

P=EI

so

Power In = E2I2 (Power out)

so if Power in = 0.00165

and we want to run at 5 volts.. we have:
0.00165 watts / 5volts = 0.00031 amps

It's useful to note that your math is wrong.. if you have 0.00165 watts at 6000 volts the current is: 0.000000275... so clearly the current is much larger at 5 volts.

With a 0.31 mA input source. So with general charging equations, this would take 3000 hours (Just under a year) to charge a 5volt 1amphour battery..

The funny thing is that at high voltage the normal equations don't work... So it's possible the battery charges faster, though probably at the expense of overall battery life.. (6000 volts is going to cause physical damage to the battery)
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by W9PMZ on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"A horse on a bike can generate 746 watts for a full minute. "

Does anyone have a picture of this?

73,

Carl - W9PMZ
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I went thru all this as a teenager. 100 foot wire to collect static electricity to charge a battery. I didn't use a capacitor however. Of course it didn't work. I put up a big loop to charge a battery from energy coupled from a power line that ran about 150 feet away. It didn't work either. Then there was the motor connected to a generator wired back to the motor. No matter how many times I pulled the starting rope it didn't run. Fortunately I had an uncle who was an engineer who explained about the need to overcome the losses.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N2MR on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
To VE7NGR

"The number of watts in an hour also doesn't make sense"
(Joules, Watt-hours, whatever)

What am I missing here?

Mark.
 
Horsies  
by KA4KOE on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Yep. 1 HP is usually stated as equal to 746 watts. However, I'm afraid that the poor horsey would be beat to death at that point.

ANIMAL HATER!!!
 
RE: bzzzz ....  
by KZ1X on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Brian

>> Steve, I have no idea what a mW/s is supposed to be

It's supposed to be my way of typing an abbreviation for the term "milliwatt second" ... apparently, you took the slash-bar literally, in its arithmetic sense.

Glad you are as particular as you are. Somebody needs to keep me straight! You will probably also notice I don't spell color with a 'u' nor program as programme ...

;-)

... and I sha'n't try to charge my gel cells off of my extended douple-Zepp.

Here's a brain teaser for you: what do you get when you mix two sailboats with a beaver?





Twenty-five cents!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KB8UFF on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Consider how a strobe light works for a moment. It functions by collecting a very small amount of energy. It only requires 1.5 volts from a single "D" dry cell battery and then it transforms that same low voltage energy and operates a high powered 7,500 volt strobe light. How can this be?"

This occurs because the DC is converted to AC and fed through the electrical equivalant to a 1:5000 turn transformer. Please note that when the voltage is increased by 5000x, the current is decreased by 5000x.

The power (watts) from the battery is the same as the power used by the strobe (less I squared R losses).

There is no free lunch.

Back to your idea, is still equate it to the solar cell on the flashlight lens, but in the spirit of Tesla I hope you build a working prototype.

73 de KB8UFF
 
RE: Emergency Power -- how about this instead?  
by KB8UFF on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Another thing that seems to be misunderstood is the effect on inductors to the overall effort. Yes, it is true that induction does not use up power (watts) but it DOES use up current (amps) without converting those amps to useful power. Inductors and capacitors both create impedance (Z) measured in ohms that will oppose the EMF of the energy provider and thus decrease the available power of the provider.

Capacitance works the same way but is 180 degrees out of phase with inductance.

This happens in AC circuits, but AC is needed to change voltage levels from one to another.

73 de KB8UFF
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KE4ZHN on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KB8UFF Mark... A horse on a bike? Now thats a sight Id love to see! lol
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Pure inductance does not "use up" anything. Yes, the inductive reactance is measured in ohms like resistance but it does not convert energy to heat like resistance. The energy is temporarily stored in the magnetic field and returned to the inductor when the field collapses. The problem is that inductors also have DC resistance (the resistance in the wire) and that does convert energy to heat so any practical inductor will have loss. The loss is the only thing that "uses" anything.
 
Be a statician class licensee  
by WB2WIK on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I like the idea of harnessing the power of static to run our stations, since I have more than the regular amount of static on hand: My wife gives me static, my kids give me static...

WB2WIK/6


 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by KC8VWM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Common misconceptions surrounding static electricity:


http://amasci.com/miscon/elect.html


Static electricity articles and projects:


http://www.amasci.com/emotor/statelec.html
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by VE7NGR on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N2MR:
I think what you are missing is that power is a rate. You can have a certain number of watts FOR a certain period of time, but not a certain number of watts IN a certain period of time. Speed is also a rate. I can drive my car 100 km/h FOR an hour; I have never driven my car 100 km/h IN an hour (though I have driven 100 km in an hour).

KZ1X:
Well of course I took the slash in its arithmetic sense - that's what it means! I can't be expected to know that you have arbitrarily decided to use it to mean the opposite!

I don't think that it is being particular to point out statements that are plain wrong, even nonsensical. But yes, I am particular. I believe it is important to be precise when discussing technical matters. It makes it possible for others to understand what we are talking about. It avoids ambiguity and confusion for others and ourselves, and helps to keep us from descending into the realm of "junk science". In a forum such as this where people come to learn, it keeps us from spreading incorrect knowledge. As an engineer, I am predisposed to being particular - it is, in fact, absolutely necessary to my profession.

Two sailboats and a beaver? Since the sailboat in question (the Bluenose) was wood, I assume I'd eventually get a pile of sawdust! :-)
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by N6TZ on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
For me, I will tap the charge from our cat brush. I just hope the cats can grow fur as fast as I will have to brush them.
Hal, N6TZ@arrl.net
 
RE: Static discharge charger  
by W2DUG on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM wrote:

"Reply: You are not understanding the concept. The antenna itself is not the storage device. Here's the instructions again:

"Next we install a 1 to 3 KV capacitor. The capacitor value will work best if it is around a few picofared like those typically found in the horizontal section of a television chassis. The capacitor is then connected from ground back to the wire where the top of the spark plug is connected to the antenna.""

-------

It makes sense to me that you are proposing storing the energy from the electrostatic discharge on a capacitor. I wouldn't say that it won't work, but I think you need to bone up on a few basic engineering principles first.

For instance, it seems that you are confusing "energy" and "power". Given that energy is always conserved, it is easier to think of the problem in terms of total energy available from the static discharge, then converting that energy into a form that can be used to charge a battery.

The energy stored in a capacitor is equal to 1/2 * C * V^2 ("one-half C V-squared"). Therefore, the total energy stored on a "few picoFarad" capacitor is 45 microJoules (assuming 3 kV and 10 pF capacitor)...this assumes that the voltage is applied long enough to fully charge the capacitor, which is unknown (to me, at least).

Forty-five microJoules = 45 microWatts-sec. Put another way, if you could transfer that full amount of energy to a battery or a load (which you can't), you could get 45 Watts of power for a full microsecond. Not very practical, but the idea is that the energy will be integrated over a very large amount of time.

Now, let's talk about charging a AA NiCd battery (1.2 Volts, 700 mA-hr capacity). To fully charge a completely dead battery, you need a total energy of at least the rated capacity (700 mA-hr), or to keep it in the same units, 3024 Joules (assuming a 1C charge current at 100% efficiency, which would obviously not be achievable in this system, but it keeps the math simple). That means you need roughly 67.2 million discharges to charge a AA NiCd, and that's before considering any of the inefficiencies in the system.

So, if I did my math right, it would take 127 years to charge a AA NiCd battery if you got one discharge every minute using a 10 picofarad capacitor and a 100% efficient transfer to the battery. There were a lot of assumptions used in this analysis that may not be entirely correct, but I think you get the idea.
 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by W0FM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Geeez. And, I'm still trying to figure out how to keep the hamster running while I feed him.

Terry, WŘFM
 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by N0TONE on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

You have spent more time arguing on this thread than it would have taken you to build the static collector. Please build the collector and report back on the results.

Count me as a skeptic. But then, I spent 20 years designing and building technology to take advantage of atmospheric static. It's remarkable how much useful energy you can collect from a nearby lightning strike. It's remarkable how little energy you can collect from many months of static build-up.

By the way, one alteration to your circuit - since the coaxial cable connected to most antennas exhibits 30pF per foot, you don't need to explicitly add a capacitor - it's already there.

AM
 
Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by N0TONE on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Consider how a strobe light works for a moment. It functions by collecting a very small amount of energy. It only requires 1.5 volts from a single "D" dry cell battery and then it transforms that same low voltage energy and operates a high powered 7,500 volt strobe light. How can this be?"

Wait a minute, maybe we're learning why Charles doesn't get it yet. "only requires 1.5 volts". Charles, volts are NOT energy. Volts X Amps X Time is energy. Also measured in Joules (which are watt-seconds, or is it watt-hours).

The level of charge on a battery is measured in ENERGY, not volts or amps or watts. Joules is the unit of energy, not volts.

AM
 
RE: Static discharge charger  
by KC8VWM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
It makes sense to me that you are proposing storing the energy from the electrostatic discharge on a capacitor. I wouldn't say that it won't work, but I think you need to bone up on a few basic engineering principles first.


Firstly, static is an animal with many unknowns and variables. At best it is mostly a theoretical science.

I can go into in this subject futher but it would be best if you read more on the subject for yourself.

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#statcur

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by KC8VWM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Thank you Mr. Notone for your excellent semantical explanation.

However please keep in mind that what I was describing was related to idea of the pulsating effect and action of using a lower source of energy (like static on your antenna) and then "pulsing" a batery (like a strobe light pulses) with a higher amount of energy , power, current, electricity or whatever or however you wish to describe the phrase.



 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by KC8VWM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Please build the collector and report back on the results."

Everyone seems to be assuming that this hasn't been already constructed and it doesn't work.

I already indicated it works many times...

What results would you like to see?

Do you want an ENZEC antenna model or something?

Perhaps I can chart weather patterns and associate that information with static buildup on the antenna?
(good luck, NASA meteorologists are still trying to figure that one out)

Do you want me to make up conceptual data charts based on theories and so called facts from a science that is relatively unknown?

How much funding are you willing to send me for further research on this subject?...

Yeah, thought so..

 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by VE7NGR on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"However please keep in mind that what I was describing was related to idea of the pulsating effect and action of using a lower source of energy (like static on your antenna) and then "pulsing" a batery (like a strobe light pulses) with a higher amount of energy"

So you are are confirming that you have created energy, and the law of conservation of energy no longer applies?

"What results would you like to see?"

We'd like you brush up on basic electrical theory, then use it when discussing such matters. Your idea may indeed work, but you'll have a hard time getting people to take you seriously if you give the impression of not knowing what you are talking about (even if you do, in fact, know what you are taking about).
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC0KBH on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W9PMZ- You wanted to see a picture of a horse on a bike, well, I have the next best thing. I can get a picture of a homeade moped with an old Homelite chainsaw to power it. I figure the chaisaw is roughly 1 horsepower.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K2WH on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon...... Scotty.

K2WH
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K2WH on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wait a minute. Is CBS involved in this story? Dan, oh Dan.....

K2WH
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K2WH on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I can't imagine the extremely small charge on a long wire antenna can overcome the resistance of the wire to perform useful work.

Didn't NASA try something like this on one of the shuttle flights. They unrolled a long wire a couple of miles long to see if they could generate power from this wire as it passed through the magnetic field of the Earth. I think the experiment failed because the wire got all tangled.

K2WH
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by K5LXP on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles KC8VWM wrote:


> Everyone seems to be assuming that this hasn't
> been already constructed and it doesn't work.

Yup, you're right. Can you show us an example?


> I already indicated it works many times...
> What results would you like to see?

That's easy.

A simple description of the equipment used- what the antenna is constructed of, nominal dimensions, installation details (how high, what orientation, etc). A schematic of the coil, spark gap, capacitor, battery and any other components. Then a graph or table of data collected over some period of time- number of spark events per hour/day/week, and peak/average current current going into the battery.


> Perhaps I can chart weather patterns and associate
> that information with static buildup on the antenna?

That would be extra credit. That's probably not so unrealistic, static output is largely based on wind speed and relative humidity. I'm sure that kind of data for a given geographic area is available.


> Do you want me to make up conceptual data charts
> based on theories

We've heard enough concepts and theories- time to reduce it to practice.


> How much funding are you willing to send me for further research on this subject?...

According to you, this isn't research. You are now claiming it's been done before and it works. I quote the first paragraph of your article:

"What would you say if I told you it is possible to build an effective simple battery charger for an emergency backup battery that is cheap, has no moving parts, has no generator, works day or night, and has no solar cells and when weather conditions worsens, the better it works?"

So, are you telling us it's possible, or it's not? Frankly, my money's with the horse on the bike.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wait a minute, Charles. You have described a system that can be build with commonly available parts. Why do you need funding to build one? Just put it together, discharge an SLA battery of say 3AH capacity at a 300 mA rate until the voltage reads 10.5 volts. Then connect your static charger and measure the time it takes for the battery to reach and maintain 14 volts (i.e. not dropping every time the charge pulse goes away). If you can fully charge the battery in a reasonable amount of time (you said 2 or 3 days) then you are correct. Give us the layout, the type of battery used, and a table of the discharge and charge voltages over the time period.

You stated that this has already been done. Who did it and where can we find accurate documentation of the results?

I think what you are missing with your stobe light example is that the total energy that flows into the capacitor over time must be at least equal to the total energy required to pulse the strobe light. This is true because you cannot create energy. It has to come from somewhere and the only source is the source that charges the capacitor. You can put a small amount of current into the capacitor over a long period of time and then take a large amount of current out over a short period of time. The "average" current out of the capacitor however can never exceed the "average" current put into the capacitor.

With your static charger the same is true. You can never take more Amper-Hours (AH) out of the battery than the total AH you put into it. The fact that you are charging it with pulses does not alter this requirement so the static build up has to supply that capacity. For a 3AH battery (ignoring for the moment the maximum current limitations of the battery) you can supply 1A for 3 hours or 3A for 1 hour or 42mA for 3 days. If you pulse charge it with 42mA pulses then the total "on" time for all the pulses has to add up to 3 days. Even with a step-down transformer I don't believe the static charge can provide that type of current. In theory you could charge it with a much lower current if you left it connected long enough. In practice at some point the charging current will be too low to keep up with the self discharge and the battery will never get charged at all.

Note: Batteries are not 100% efficient therefore you actually have to put more AH into them than you take out.
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by W5HTW on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm waiting for that horse on the bike, too. This, however, is cattle country, so maybe some bull on a bike would be in order?

Now there's a thought. Put little water wheels under the cow's udder, hook them to a generator ...

Then again, back to the horse, perhaps a water wheel under his, uh?? And feed him diuretics?

Ed
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by K1CJS on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
With all the all being slung on the thread, maybe you'd be better off trying to use a dung burner and generator set!! ;-)
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy.  
by K1CJS on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
With all the all being slung on the thread, maybe you'd be better off trying to use a dung burner and generator set!! ;-)
 
Volts are not a unit of energy  
by K7PEH on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Volts are not a unit of energy


Comment on the title above. Someone put this title, that is, volts are not a unit of energy.

Well, not exactly but very close. A volt per unit charge is a unit of energy. That is, the difference in potential energy of en electric field is measured in volts because it is equal to the energy of one joule accumulated by a unit charge of one coulomb.

This would be much easier with algebra but you get the picture. So, volts is very close to energy.

Phil (BS Physics, 1970)
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by KI7YY on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is a wonderful Idea being assaulted by a brutal gang of facts. The only real trouble with this scheme is the nasty question of Entropy and how to answer it. Good thinking however, from such thinking came the general theory of relativity.
73, KI7YY, Kirk
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by KI7YY on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is a wonderful Idea being assaulted by a brutal gang of facts. The only real trouble with this scheme is the nasty question of Entropy and how to answer it. Good thinking however, from such thinking came the general theory of relativity.
73, KI7YY, Kirk
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by K0RFD on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think this thread was fun. No real assaults, no ad hominem attacks, just facts being posted. To those of us who think it's a silly idea, we're probably right. To Charles, who thinks it's a good idea in spite of the facts, here's a lesson. Get a patent FIRST. Don't share an idea you think is good with an entire Internet chat forum. If it's THAT good, somebody might steal it from you (not me, I don't think it's that good).

If it's really that good, build it, test it, patent it.

Nonetheless, one of the most fun threads on here in months.
 
RE: Static discharge charger  
by W2DUG on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM wrote:
"Firstly, static is an animal with many unknowns and variables. At best it is mostly a theoretical science. "

It wasn't the static electricity part I was suggesting you bone up on. A solid understanding of the engineering principles involved in _harnessing_ the energy is required to successfully implement the concept. Don't get me wrong...I think it's a pretty cool idea (albeit fraught with some key challenges), but some of what you wrote indicates that there may be some confusion on your part about the stuff I DO understand through my training and experience as an electrical engineer, and I was attempting to clarify. Thanks for the links...coincidentally I had come across them following an unrelated discussion at work on electrostatic discharge a day or two earlier.
 
RE: Static discharge charger  
by KF6NBF on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey, in the movie "Back to the Future" he was able to get 1.21 gigawatts from a lightning bolt to send Marty McFly back. Maybe they should have just strung up a few million feet of wire, then they wouldn't have had to wait for the storm.

Instead of static electricity, how about generating power from potatoes or acidic fruit like we did in elementary school. just get some pennies, nickels, wire and a bag of potatoes and you got enough power for a QRP rig, or HT.
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by KC8VWM on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Thank you to all who have responded so eloquently.

I have no further discussion or contributions for the Amateur community on the subject of my working experiment.

If you should have any questions, consider building one for yourself.

Based on my recent experiences, I have decided that it is not in my best interests to pursue this activity or to provide any future contributions to the Amateur Radio community.

Quite frankly, I am dissapointed at the Amateur community for their limited insight on this and similar experimental subjects.

Simply put, I am no longer interested if this is the human cost of pursuing such experiments.

Congratulations, you are the winner of your contest.

I will graciously step aside to make way for your next victim.

I have better and more important things to do than to try and "fit in" with your Amateur Radio.

I see that I am not welcomed here.

Charles Bushell
Columbus, Ohio

SWL Radio Hobbyist.
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by VE7NGR on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hang on a second Charles.

I don't think anyone was trying to be turn you into a victim or make you feel unwelcome - there was no contest!

What I saw was a number of posts discussing the theory behind the idea. Lots of skepticism, yes, but that's not a bad thing. Think of it as peer review! It's a useful tool.

There were also a number of posts, many of them mine, discussing electrical theory, which were prompted by a number of incorrect statements by a number of people. Again, I don't think anyone was trying to be mean. I certainly wasn't - it was more my intention to hopefully motivate people to crack the books and brush up on theory.

Your idea is interesting. I'm skeptical, but I'm not ruling anything out. I would love to hear more about it. Please continue to experiment, and please continue to share the results of your experiments with the community that you are a part of.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KD7EVS on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"a horse on a bike can generate 746 watts for a full minute"

HAH! a horse on a bike, speaking of crazy ideas! that one I've got to see! seriously, I'll pay to see that!


as for the static charging.... yes it'll probably work. it'd take a ton of wire.

as for the picking it up from am broadcast power; that I've seen, gives a nice shock. but don't plan on it for emergency power: a) they might not have power. b) you've got to be close.

either way. could make for fun experiments.
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by AA4PB on September 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles, no one said you are not welcome here. Its just that your project, while quite innovative, appears to violate some well established electrical laws. Would you rather that we just ignore that and just tell you what a great idea it is? If you feel strongly that it can work in spite of that then just build one, test it, and document the results. If it works then try to find out why these laws do not apply (either we don't understand the laws or they are wrong).

Anyway, stick around and let us know how you make out.

73, Bob
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by KB8UFF on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles,

Before you consider making any judgment about ham radio based on responses to posting here on eHam please look at other posts and their responses. No matter how agreeable an idea you will get arguements here. Just look at N6AYJ's post on public service.

Although I don't think your experiment is practical, I encourage you to persue it. 'In the spirit of Tesla' should have told you something. He was never afraid to explore new territory. He pioneered the power distribution techniques used today. He claimed to have come up with ways not only to get energy from the atmoshpere but with ways to transmit useable power from one place to another without wires. I know of an experiment, documented, where he lit a light bulb without wires at a distance of over 25 miles. As far as I know, that has not been duplicated. His papers from his Colorado lab were siezed by the gov't after his death. Supposedly they were sent to a museum in Belgrade but the notes on atmospheric energy and wireless transmission of energy were 'lost' in the shuffle.

By all means carry on. Looking to this site as a source for motivation, however, should be done with caution.

That being said I would like to address one comment I read here.

Paraphrasing - Induction does not use up electricity...

Perhaps 'use' was the wrong term. Inductive reactance produces impedance which creates a poor power factor. Let's say a generator is supplying 1000 volt/amps to a load and due to poor power factor only 700 watts are being used. The energy used to produce the 300 volt/amp loss is still required even though it is not being used. Your power company will penalize you if you have a poor enough power factor.

In place of 'use' I may well have used 'negate' in it's place.

73,

KB8UFF
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by K5LXP on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This article started out with the premise this was "an effective simple battery charger for an emergency backup battery" and it ended up with "dissapointed at the Amateur community for their limited insight". It's not our limited insight, it's the lack of facts and data to support your idea in a way we can understand. A forum like this is an excellent way to get technical feedback from a lot of people with a variety of disciplines. There will always be detractors and naysayers but you have to at a minimum present your idea to a level that other people can repeat your results. We weren't looking for white paper describing the physics on an atomic level. This is ham radio. Simple schematics and even anecdotal data would show whether this thing had any merit or not. Even the guy using tree trunks for antennas had anecdotal data. No one is ever going to take you seriously until you can show you did your homework. I'm sorry you threw in the towel so quickly, you seemed serious enough that I thought maybe you might start coming up with some answers. Oh well.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by W2DUG on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM wrote:
"Quite frankly, I am dissapointed at the Amateur community for their limited insight on this and similar experimental subjects. "

-----------

Au contraire, Charles.

A number of us took it seriously enough to perform a back-of-the-envelope feasibility analysis--that's something engineers and those who understand the principles and scope of the problem do when presented with an interesting idea. Your reaction indicates that perhaps your technical maturity level isn't quite high enough to do this kind of work. The message you should take away is that when enough people conclude an idea presents critical technical challenges, maybe they're right. From that you take the appropriate change in direction to either modify the concept or shelve it. Taking this stuff too personally can be a problem.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NK7J on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles, Dont give up that easy!!
I dont think anyone on this thread was trying to flame you or posting anything mean spirited.

A lot of us are just skeptics, born that way I suppose. I liked the idea of taking a battery and discharging it to say 10V and hooking up your system and seeing how long it takes to charge tha battery back to 14 nominal volts. That would give many of us an idea of what kind of charging capacity you are talking about then we can analyze how and why it works.

Just becuase your idea seems to defy the known laws of electricity does not mean it is not possible, it is simply defys what we know! So if it works then we need to figure out how it works and why.

I think this thread was one of the best I have read in quite a while and very much enjoyed it, no flaming just lots of ideas and reasoning, thats what experimenting is all about. Keeps the old gears a churnin on something.

Thanks Again.
Jack NK7J
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AL2I on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is an interesting concept, and reminds me of the part at the end of "Atlas Shrugged" where John Galt's system is able to draw its power from the atmosphere.

I always assumed that there was no significant energy available in static, and I think even the most powerful lightning bolt has less total energy than is needed to power a humble 100watt light bulb for a month or so, but maybe the continuously pulsed static discharge model presented here could produce as much energy in a few months as a lightning bolt releases in milliseconds.

73,
Dave/al2i

 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by W2DUG on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
NK7J wrote:

"Just becuase your idea seems to defy the known laws of electricity does not mean it is not possible, it is simply defys what we know! So if it works then we need to figure out how it works and why."

---------

This idea does NOT "defy the known laws of electricity". Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because you don't understand it, it must be magical. A number of us have tried to explain what the challenges are in realizing this type of system.

If you could collect the energy from the static discharges at a high enough rate efficiently enough, you could certainly charge a battery. But the question is: what is the rate, and is it something achievable within the constraints of real-life? The answer appears to be NO, but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea. For instance, maybe if you hooked up an array of 100 optimized "collectors" and stored the energy in a single device that regulated how the power was delivered, it could generate enough power to keep the charge on a battery. But to build the array might be a huge undertaking beyond the means of the person developing it. It's all just engineering; that is, applying scientific principles in the real world. The task is only as hard as the constraints make it.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think the basic idea of taking the high voltage discharge and sending it thru a step down transfomer to lower the voltage and increase the current and then using that current to charge the battery follows all the known laws. The only question is can you develop enough total watt-hours in a reasonable amount of time from the static to charge a battery large enough to do anything useful. Where I think it got technically off track was when that question was raised and we began to be told that we had to abandon "traditional thinking" and accept the unproven premmise that the battery could somehow be recharged without putting back as much current as was taken out of it; that somehow the fact that we used short pulses made the battery become charged without the "traditional" charging current.

Had we been told, for example, that he lives in a very dry, windy location and that he had personally recharged an "x" AH battery in "x" days then I would say that it had some merrit and we need to take a closer look at how much energy can be recovered from a static charge in an area like his.
 
RE: Volts are not a unit of energy  
by MOELARRY on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Message to Charles,

I am sorry that you have a low threshold of tolerance of opposing discourse. I would like to say that many brilliant minds are high strung, and sensitive. But you are obviously a dreamer and probably will go on to another project that will never be completed. Please don't be critical of those who disagree. Rather, look at yourself and try and improve your ability to stay on task. If you would like some help with your project, please call Dr. Frankenstein. He has done some amazing experiments regarding static electricity.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K0RFD on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W2DUG wrote:
>This idea does NOT "defy the known laws of
>electricity".

No, you're right, it doesn't defy any laws. It only ignores those laws from an engineering standpoint. it tries to get something from damned near nothing without doing any calculations to establish how near or far "damned near nothing" is from "actual nothing".

No laws defied here. Just laws ignored. If he does some calculations to say why he believes it will work within the known constraints of how many amp/hours he needs to dump into known kinds of batteries in order to charge them at a faster rate than they will self discharge, he's got MY pat on the back.

Defying laws and ignoring laws are two different things. The former is heroic; the latter is simply lazy.
 
wow  
by KA4KOE on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You guys are a tough audience. Is the rotten fruit flying now?
 
Energy in space  
by KA4KOE on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have heard of some theories flying around in highly rarefied physics circles that postulate that the very vacuum of space is filled with limitless energy. The kicker is knowing how to get at it. Seems crazy, but was discussed this month in Scientific American. I have heard about it previously, but can't recall when.

Anyway, non de plumes have no place in this type of discourse. If you're going to throw bricks, at least have the cohones to put your name up there. Name calling is a no-no, and then I'll be forced to tell your mommie.

Whether he's right or wrong in his assumptions is not my point: Charles put up an article for our entertainment.

And, to the anonymous "gentlemen" who claims the man can't finish projects and is a dreamer, I suggest you look his bio or name up on the internet. I am sure you'll find that he is a DOER. Hell, I wish I could have accomplished 10% of what the man has. High level executives tend to be focused, driven sorts.

Anyway, just my 2.3523454 cents worth.

Fee-leeeeep
 
RE: Energy in space  
by KA4KOE on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
...Charles was presented with the prestigious National Leadership Award from Congress in Washington, D.C. He was recently honored as Co-Chairman for the Small Business Advisory Council for the state of Ohio. In April 2003, the Wall Street Journal announced Charles received the Businessman of The Year Award...

Charles is also the industrial hygienist, computer network administrator, website developer, marketing and graphic designer for S.T.A.R.,Inc.

Prior to S.T.A.R., Charles practiced in a busy emergency department in Canada.

 
RE: Energy in space  
by K4JSR on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well said, Philip. Charles is a dreamer. The wild thing is that so many of his dreams have come to fruition and earned him a pretty decent living.
Some dreams do not bear any fruit at all, but look at what gets found along the way the research. Can anyone say Teflon or post-it-notes?
If we all had Charles' curiosity and drive the world
would indeed be a better place.
Most of you detractors kept failing to notice that Charles was talking in terms of flea power, not watts. We are talking QRPp here folks.
Get a grip. And some of us wonder why talented people quit posting here.

Cal K4JSR
 
RE: Energy in space  
by K4JSR on September 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
oops! Please put the word "doing" between way and the.

73, Cal K4JSR.
 
RE: Energy in space  
by AA4PB on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"What if we could harness this free energy and use it to our advantage after an emergency event such as a large-scale power blackout, or after a hurricane when we have no other methods at our disposal to charge our emergency batteries after such an event occurs?"

It doesn't sound like "flee power" to me.


 
RE: Energy in space  
by W2DUG on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KA4KOE wrote:

> "I have heard of some theories flying around in
> highly rarefied physics circles that postulate that
> the very vacuum of space is filled with limitless
> energy. The kicker is knowing how to get at it."

You betcha. Without knowing how to get at it, the idea is purely cerebral flatulence. But that's spoken by an engineer, and we're known for insisting that ideas be practical.

-----


> "Whether he's right or wrong in his assumptions is
> not my point: Charles put up an article for our entertainment."

Actually, given the detail he presented, I think he was putting it there for our consideration. And we considered it. Regardless of Charles' accomplishments, it is clear that his approach to realizing his ideas still needs some refining. He, in effect, asked us for our feedback, and when he got it, he ran away whimpering. That is not an effective way to convert ideas into reality. In my own replies, I considered it to the point that I made some calculations and explained my rationale behind the analysis because I thought it was an idea worth considering at first...in other words, it was a constructive analysis. I fail to see how that could be considered throwing rotten fruit. Even a constructive analysis can yield a negative answer sometimes.

It doesn't matter that the idea wasn't an immediate winner, but it does matter how the feedback was received, because it may have killed off the idea before it had a chance to be seriously developed, and it certainly made Charles look foolish when, in reality, he isn't by most accounts.
 
RE: Energy in space  
by WB5HZE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wherever a difference of potential in terms of energy levels exists- whether that energy is electrical, kinetic, thermal, whatever- it is theoretically possible to devise a mechanism to interface with that energy and convert it to another, perhaps more useful, form of energy (which can be stored or used). The trick lies in accomplishing this with adequate efficiency and on such a scale that the energy produced will achieve targeted expectations- and also that the energy potential across the interface will remain sufficiently available.
The author proposes a specific interface system that cannot accomplish expectations. This does not mean that the concept is completely without merit. It does mean that additional effort is required to determine whether an effective system can be developed from this seed of an idea, in exactly what environments such a system might prove practical, and- to be blunt- whether the potential energy has adequate availability to supply enough energy over time to warrant the effort of harnessing it.
IMHO it seems that a mechanism to harness static electrical energy- at least in the everyday state in which it is commonly observed, ignoring the occasional production of high potential produced under unusual conditions (such as in thunderstorms)- would require such physically large arrays of "collectors" that it would prove impractical to construct. It also seems to me that in most locations the source itself would prove unreliable- that adequate differences in potential would occur infrequently & often would not be present for extended periods. But that hardly means that effective "capture" of the energy cannot be achieved, or that a better mousetrap cannot be built to do it.
If the author desires to devote his time and effort toward such a goal, then more power to him & he will have my admiration for his perseverance. But he'd best be prepared for a continued dose of healthy skepticism from his peers until a practical design is realized and demonstrated (with empirical evidence to back up claims of performance).

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NX7U on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Who is John Galt? :-)
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KN8AW on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Rather than dismiss the idea totally, why not instead offer suggestions to improve upon the basic model of the experiment? Harnessing the power of available static electricity is a terrific idea that we should all be working together on for our mutual benefit, even if it realizes only a small amount of power initially. Offer constructive criticism; don't just say why something won't work. Offer ideas that will help expound on the original theory. Remember, communication without wires was once thought of as belonging to the realm of crackpots!
Don't fret, Charles. Many ideas have been shunned initially as ridiculous, goofy or "It'll never work!", only to have people kick themselves in the pants later and change their exclamation to "why did't I think of that?".
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think the original premise was that you could simply disconnect your existing antenna from the rig, connect it to this charger, and in 2 or 3 days charge up a battery large enough to supply your emergency power needs. As time went on he backed off to the point of lighting a few LEDs and "maybe" running a small QRP rig for long enough to get out an emergency message.

Certainly *if* you could build a "collector" large enough to harness enough energy you could charge a battery bank big enough to run your whole house; but you are not going to do it with your 75M dipole.

The "theory" that I argued against was the idea that by using the pulse charging technique you didn't have to put as much energy back into a battery as you took out.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles...I wonder too, why I post an artical. The result are those that have ego's.

In NAZI Germany EINSTEINS RELATIVITY THEORY was said to have been bull.

Science demands innovation. Einstein even said........If your idea seems too difficult try anyway!

Sure glad they tried anyway at LOS ALAMOS!
Yes, Fission requires picosecond timing.

Sure Glad 3 dead dudes at Bell labs invented the transistor too!(I think Willium Shockly is still alive)
Nobody wanted the transistor at first!!!!!!!!!!
The Japanese Ran with it. The rest is history!


Also SCIENTIFIC fact the earth is bathed by solar winds. If 10% of that energy could be harnessed, ALL of earth electrical needs are met hundreds of time over.

Besides finding the 5th law of physics, scientist for years have wanted to harness static electricity.
YES THERE ARE COMPLICATIONS. There are complications in getting U235 or PU-239 to fissle in a controlled reaction. Thats nuclear power.

DARPA was created for out of the box thinkers. We got the Internet and many other modern wonders by those who tried anyway!!!!!

Like I tell my students...do not tell me why it will not work....Try to find a way to make it work!
With out INNOVATION we are doomed!


 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by AA4PB on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Like I tell them at work (and sometimes management doesn't listen), you can sure waste a pile of time and money trying to do some "pie in the sky" project that doesn't have a 1% chance of succeeding. Why not spend your limited resources trying to develop one of the needed projects that is based on solid technology and has a 90% chance of success?
 
Waste of Time  
by KA4KOE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Why not? The same rationale applies to building a crystal set with your kid. YEAH, its obsolete as hell, but, I think the missed point is because....

Are you ready for this?

...its fun!

Not everything in life has a cost-benefit curve associated with it, and some things, as we all know who have chill-rens, are priceless.

Fee-leeep
 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by N0TONE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
""Please build the collector and report back on the results."

Everyone seems to be assuming that this hasn't been already constructed and it doesn't work.

I already indicated it works many times...

What results would you like to see?
"

Your initial posting provides no numerical results, only speculations. Here's what I'd like to see:

1) Show a photograph of the antenna setup you used. Include a schematic

2) Describe the condition of the battery you charged. Provide us with the electrical measurements which demonstrate that it was fully discharged before the experiment began. Based on what you are proposing, I think that a ten ohm resistor placed across the battery terminals should cause the battery voltage to drop to 6V. I would consider this "fully discharged". Bear in mind, that ten ohm resistor needs to be somewhere around a 15 watt or more resistor, else it will not pass this test without burning up. If the battery is not already fully discharged, you could use this resistor to create that condition.

3) Connect the battery to the setup. Indicate to us how many days you allowed the antenna/capacitor/plug/coil to charge the battery. Based on your initial posting, I think the proper amount of time is three days.

4) Connect a known load to the battery. A constant current load would be ideal, but a resistor would be adequate. The 10 ohm, 15 watt resistor described in step two is not a bad load.

5) Measure and report the battery voltage immediately upon connecting the resistor and every hour after that. If, in fact, the battery has been fully charged, then we would expect to see no significant voltage drop for a minimum of about 50 hours (assuming a moderately-sized deep cycle battery).

6) Upon successful completion, allow some small grouping of amateurs to inspect the apparatus, and if desired, borrow it to repeat the experiment.

What I have just described, by the way, is pretty much the standard invention validation process. You devise an experiment to demonstrate that your claim is correct, then you provide enough information and/or experimental hardware so that others can validate your claim independently.

If in fact, you have actually already built this apparatus, then you need spend zero dollars doing this experiment.

If the experiment is a success, I will contribute for free, an implemented marketing plan that will allow you to earn so much money from this idea, that you'll be able to spread the word and help everybody get the same setup working. If necessary, I can also contribute the engineering required to make it a manufacturable product, thus available to the masses. In commercial terms, that's about $20,000 worth of free marketing and engineering.

AM
 
RE: Energy in space  
by KB8UFF on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"...Charles was presented with the prestigious National Leadership Award from Congress in Washington, D.C. He was recently honored as Co-Chairman for the Small Business Advisory Council for the state of Ohio. In April 2003, the Wall Street Journal announced Charles received the Businessman of The Year Award...

Charles is also the industrial hygienist, computer network administrator, website developer, marketing and graphic designer for S.T.A.R.,Inc.

Prior to S.T.A.R., Charles practiced in a busy emergency department in Canada."

WOW! His wife's parents must be ecstatic!

Sorry, this all may be true but I could not find any of it by doing just an Internet search.

Nonetheless, I think that Charles should persue his experiment. Win lose or draw there will be something learned.

73 KB8UFF
 
RE: Energy in space  
by KB8UFF on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"IMHO it seems that a mechanism to harness static electrical energy- at least in the everyday state in which it is commonly observed, ignoring the occasional production of high potential produced under unusual conditions (such as in thunderstorms)- would require such physically large arrays of "collectors" that it would prove impractical to construct.

Tesla felt differently.
 
Charles  
by KA4KOE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I found it within 5 minutes.

"Charles Bushell"

http://www.starseal.com/C_Bushell.htm
 
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOODS!  
by KA4KOE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Start tomorrow on TWIAR, Program #598.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Get a copy of NUTS&VOLTS mag. Some company Does sell a device that generates enough electricity for trickle charge batteries from stray voltage differentials in air!

Before Newton we had no laws of physics. Gee maybe Faraday and maxwell should not have wasted their time too.

Yes critical peer review is important.
We do not want the days of the charlitan and snake oil salesman to come back.

CO-GENERATION is not the same as perpetual motion.
In old Russia they twisted 2 dis-similar metal wires.
They wrapped the wire around the old pot belly stove.
The wasted heat produced enough electricity in the wire to power a transistor radio!

The idea is to harness wasted energy. BDCST UHF transmitters have been used to produce hot water and steam from the wasted thermal energy.
Some UHFs found that an economic savior.

BDCST UHF's can have outputs as high as 1 megawatt(-7IRE )peak. The steam and hot water generated off the waste heat of the Class A bias KLYSTROD tubes off set the huge electric bill!!!!

IF VFW DID HAVE A WORKING PROTOTYPE.... Why should he share it. I ceratinly do not talk about my patent pendings on BIO-MED devices.


 
RE: Be a statician class licensee  
by SWL_HAM on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"If necessary, I can also contribute the engineering required to make it a manufacturable product, thus available to the masses. In commercial terms, that's about $20,000 worth of free marketing and engineering."

Thanks for the tip...

A cheap business offering. Needless to say, I am well versed in the area of portfolio capital investment and strategic marketing analysis. I do not currently have your future business venture proposal or any technology licensing draft on file. I will promptly advise you to contact my investment broker to further discuss an appropriate business plan when this opportunity becomes available.


lol.

... you guys are too funny.
 
RE: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOODS!  
by WB5HZE on September 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Did he? I thought that Tesla's research was focused on a more significant differential than that provided by ambient static electricity . . .
Regardless, I'm no Tesla, I can only base my own opinion on those things that I happen to know & understand, limited as they may be. Current scientific thought indicates that collection of static energy is best achieved by a large surface area. This would seem to be particularly true where static charges are caused by the motion of air / debris over a surface (which is most often the case for static charges appearing on antenna elements, or so I am led to believe by the texts). I was not commenting with respect to intentional "broadcast power" or incidental RF energy- those are horses of a different color entirely.
And I think you missed my point- I applaud innovation & exploration, I was simply saying that any erstwhile innovator has a rocky road ahead of him if he expects unquestioning peer acceptance of his assertions- because skeptical questions WILL (and should) be asked and it is best to be prepared to demonstrate proof instead of unsubstantiated claims. I'm disappointed because this was a lively, interesting discussion until the author made himself seem intolerant of dissention. He should return to the forum when he has made himself better prepared to defend his position by experimentation and collection of empirical evidence- I think he will be welcomed.

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles VFW, Thank you for you time and effort in bothering to publish a thread.

It is amusing, how many did not get the scope of you artical!

Do not take it so hard. You turned me on to a lot of cool sites. Like the worlds most sophisticated xtal radio's.

In fact one poster made an observation that would violate the rules for the world wide XTAL radio competition.

My idea for the most sensitive XTAL radio was to tune several L/C schotkey diode RCVRS to a 50KW clear channel AM station. Combine the power of the simple L/c diode detectors to provide enough power fot a one transistor super-regerative RCVR.

Yup a shortwave receiver that needed no power source!
It did violate the contest rules. No transistors allowed.

The site had one design where this multi diode TRF radio was able to drive a load speaker!

Yes you can quote the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Expalin that enthalpy(not entropy) is U+Pdv.

Simple math fact: Calculas, which does to a very limited extent perdict the behavior of devices is done in base 10.
Sir Issac Newton who had to invent calculas to come up with the first law of physics used base 9!

So all our math is off with differentail equations.
Scientist also agree that not all the math checks out with out a 5th yet unknown law of physics.

Before Watkins and Crick in 1953 came up with an organic chemical module of DNA.....We did not have a clue!

What I love about feedback from a post.....You can have an interesting idea. People find it easier to tear you down, then to make thier own out of the box hypothesesis(I WILL BE CAUSTICLY LAMBASTED CUASE OF PICYUNE PEOPLE THAT LOOK FOR MY SPELLING MISTAKES)

DOES NOT HURT MY EGO AT ALL. IT SIMPLY PROVES WHAT lORENTZ SAID ABOUT INATE AGGRESSION.

I am being histrionic here to make a point. PHIL KA4KOE and I have have had many conversations about why bother to publish at all!

Charles..get back on your horse and write another technical artical.

I would like to see any one of the chronic complainers write a hypothetical high tech artical! artical. They do not! Ever notice that!

OH yeah , if ya's got a problem with my spelling and grammar.....See my manager Hellen Waite.....YOU's gotz a problem....GO TO HELLEN WAITE!!!!!
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Do you know what the real shame of it is.???????

I see from the postings, that EHAH has a large number of engineers, computer people, teachers,scientist and lots of other RAW UNTAPPED TALENT!

If we had a technology thread and we all helped each other rather than flame, we might have a real innovation/invention right in front of us!

Hey look APPLE computer was just Jobs and Wozniak stealing parts from their employeer HP. They came up with the APPLE 2. Some dude, it was NOT Bill Gates....
came up with VISICALC(spreed sheet like excel) and WORD
Magic(NOT WORD at first)

It was Jobs and Wozniac that really came out with a usefull personal computer. Just a couple of non dead dudes!

I will find that device in nUTS&VOLTS. I think it cost $20 bux. Those that want to can buy the device.
Their claim was a few volts at 200ma.
Lets all share our findings. Lets coorperate! Work with each other, rather than finding fault.
Hams used to have a colorful history of being innovators. Now we just bitch, rather than help each other!?
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NN6EE on September 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Way too much work and batteries are a pain-in-the-butt anyway!!!

I recently bought a Honda EU-2000i gas-driven generator and it's a "no brainer" for those who want instant emergency power and plenty of it!!! Yah I know if I don't have fuel on-hand then it won't work! But alas I always have plenty of fuel on hand!!! :-)))

Jim/nn6ee
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by SWL_HAM on September 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"it's a "no brainer" for those who want instant emergency power and plenty of it!!! Yah I know if I don't have fuel on-hand then it won't work!"

... And Florida has plenty of fuel on hand..Right?

How many hours would your generator last.. 5, 20, 48 hours?



 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The general idea is to have some sort of battery back up. Believe it or not there are a few questions on the old 1st class FCC phone test on this.

OK, how do we charge our batteries. Solar and wind take up much space.

One process you will be hearing about is a way of degrading plastic bottles into fuel.

One of my Profs does have a patent on how to do this without melting the plastic! If you want details.
Do a google search on who won the presidential GREEN award for science and technology for 2003. You will be shocked how simple the catalyst is!
Yes DARPA paid him for the research.

So if you thaught Charles idea was flaky, this one won an award from el presidente.

Perhaps in the future you can charge your batteries with emply plastic bottles. The Green award means that the idea will not hurt the enviorment.

Yes, you can make a battery charger that uses e-coli bacteria. I think most of you know where to find e-coli.

I would use thermocouple wire. Wrap it around any where I could get wasted heat energy.
Steam pipes are the best source.

Yes perpetual motion is bull. Co-generation is not!
If it passes the second law of thermodynamics, it could work.

Your septic tank can also be used for cogeneration.

I am re-subscribing to NUTS&VOLTS. As soon as I find that $20 gizmo, I will pass the info on. It was a box that somehow got electricity out of air!

NUTS&VOLTS also lists every electronic swap meet and ham fest.

They once had a NITROGEN LASER. Guess what it simply used air. Air is 80% nitrogen. This laser is a IVB device! You could do some very serious damage!

Sorry if I rubbed anybody the wrong way.
I was hoping perhaps we could try building some of these bizaar devices, then share the experience.
WOULD NOT THAT BE FUN!!! I see much talent here. However, some of the talent goes to who can put someone down! I am guilty of that too!

We do not have too many active ham clubs. Eham was kind of providing that for me.

Perhaps the old spirit of ham radio could be recaptured.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WB5HZE.OK point taken. You said Charles should have been better prepared.

How bout this.

1) Charles is a very busy with work
2)As AE6IP points out....It is jsut a hobby.
3)Yes if Charles had to defend a thesis for a formal PhD panel......,HE FAILED WITH FLYING COLORS AND AFTER BURNERS!

4)many times at my university, the profs will be sketchy. They feel if you are a Post Gad fellow in route to a PHD, you should be able to do the research to fill in the blanks.

A friend of mine is an EX-Bronx ADA. He told me idea's are like straws. Throw 100 of them in the air.
If 3 or 4 give you what you need, you are ahead of the game.
HOWEVER........you must have heard this on any court show on TV. The Judge says..."your grasping for straws....The lawyer then looks like he had just been insanguinated!!!!
HENCE THE TERM....YOUR GRASPING FOR STRAWS.....COUNSELOR!!!!!!!

73 MIKE
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by NN6EE on September 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Dear SWL-HAM what in the Hell does your comment have to do with what I posted???

OH WELL!!!

Oh by the way the 1.4 gal. fuel tank LASTS 14.5 hrs!!!

As "Alfred E. Newman" quoted many years ago in MAD magazine: "What me worry???"

I got my butt covered, so hope you can do the same!!!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by SWL_HAM on September 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

As William Blake once said;

"The hours of folly are measured by the clock; but of wisdom, no clock can measure."


Never measure your backup power in terms of hours, but rely on it rather in days.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
A small gas generator is an excellent thing to have.
The newer designes get much kw FOR THE GAS YOU USE.

New composite alloys are used. Of course you cannot use the sucker inside a small home. Nobody has been able to get the carbon monoxide levels down low enough.

Factiod: People have BBQed inside they homes using brickettes. Carbon monoxide is odorless. There are something like 40 deaths a year for those thsat BBQ inside.

A 2 KW gas generator produces 1/3 erd the carbon monoxide of a few bags of bricketts.

I just wanted to warn those that may want to build a steam turbine gen. using BBQ bricketts. Whats the name of that show...JACK-A-- on MTV. Maybe I should dare him to have a BBQ in a one bedroom apt.
Or have him run his trailer park home on a 2KW inside gas Gen.
Just have EMTS standing by with 02. Ijust want to see how many burgers he could eat,before passing out.

He should do it. He did one stunt where he put himself on a BBQ grill. Nobody was shown that he coated his body with ""ZELL GELL""(thats the stuff stunt people coat themselfs with in movies)

A few days later a couple of kids tried the same stunt. They did not know about ""ZELL GELL"". It costs
$300/gallon.

ZELL GELL also a polymer. There are new methods of making polymers conductive. IBM is offering a polymer battery for it's t-40/1 series. A polymer battery is an option for this high end laptop.

Polymers are like the Super Deluxe Swiss Army knief
of chemical compounds.

If you are still reading MY POS feedback, do your self a favor.
Google the heck out of POLYMERS. SARAH(KA4KOE's kid)
You impressed the heck out of the boys with your 3 stage Xtal radio.

Learn about conducting polymers. I had a chance to experiment wwith conducting POLYMERS. THEY WILL REPLACE GALLIUM ARSENIDE LEDS. Make your dad happy.
I think you should be able to win any science fair if you construct an O-LED flashlight, or make a logic gate out of this stuff. O-stands for organic.

One can use Carbon polymers instead of silicon or gallium arsenic-id

I have to start using conducting polymers. They back light LCD's with much less currant drain.

Whats the bottom line. Perhaps when it comes to emergency power, we should engineer stuff that consumes less amps

Perhaps you can get your rig to consume 50ma on RX.
I would use an old technology. Anybody remember SUPEREX
2000 ohm head phones? You sed to be able to buy a set at Lafayette for $5 bux!

If you used them on a germainium diode xtal radio, they would almost blow out your ear drumes when you tuned in the 50KW clear channel AM station.


 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WB5HZE on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA2JJH:

With all sympathy & respect towards the author: he went beyond tossing an idea on the table for consideration. He proposed a device, made claims of performance, and then defended the design. He did this before a group composed largely of engineers (and practical experimenters) who are trained to automatically dissect designs & probe for weakness- engineers stand or fall based on such ability & it becomes second nature especially for those who have been around the block. A flawed (or even an inadequately presented) design in front of such a group is kinda' like tossing a bloody steak into a school of piranha . . . it'll be torn apart in the blink of an eye. Even a solid, well presented design will probably be chewed on a bit, just from reflex.

His core idea, though, was sufficiently interesting that a lot of people took notice and considered it. If only he'd left it at that . . .

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

" If only he'd left it at that . . . "


...and so it was.


Your point is well taken Ron (& others)

I am not so sure if I was "defending" anything other than a theory I attempted to bring to fruition.

You are correct in your assertion describing an "automatic reflex" to similar new & explorative proposals. This is obviously nothing new. Even famous "dead electrical dudes" of time past faced similar challenges from their peers.

The piranah is a dangerous animal often forcing it's victim to fight back whether it was initially intended or not.

My intention of describing that there is more to learn from what we don't know, than what we do know, could only be explained to individuals that are open to such a proposal. Otherwise, it is simply just another battle downhill under the auspice of calculation and formulations.

This was not my original intention, although this was quickly becoming the final conclusion & response.

Perhaps another audience, another time...

Please accept my apologies if I seemed short about the issue, but Ron puts it very well when he said;

" If only he'd left it at that . . . "

Agreed, that some areas of amateur experiment are just better left alone until the right time and when the answers to the universe are readily available at our disposal. Until that time arrives, our known formulations and calculations will just not seem to fit into these equasions just perfectly. They will have to remain as theory, without fact, without understanding and without answers.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their thoughful insight, suggestions, guidance, and genuine interest in this topic.

I am hopeful that it was at least a very refreshing challenge for all those involved.


Sincerely,

Charles Bushell - KC8VWM


 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by W2DUG on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Agreed, that some areas of amateur experiment are just better left alone until the right time and when the answers to the universe are readily available at our disposal. Until that time arrives, our known formulations and calculations will just not seem to fit into these equasions just perfectly. They will have to remain as theory, without fact, without understanding and without answers."

----------

But not in this case. I really don't think this is the mystery of the universe you make it out to be, nor does it represent an amazing new idea. It is without a doubt an interesting idea, but it is not that hard to understand or quantify. Nonetheless, it is fun to consider these ideas, so keep them coming. I'm glad to see you have regained your sense of reason.
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Thank you...
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
ok, seems that commen sense prevails.

A little psycodrama can be cathartic.
If you are bitten by a pirana, bite back?
No, you out numbered by a large number.

A little fun/pun. Does anybody know what the best tactic to use, should one find themselfs in the midst of a school of the deadly little fish?


a)Play dead
b)learn to walk on water real quick!
c)accept your karma?
d)Out swim those bad boys!
e)Negotiate through collective bargaining
f)Maybe they will just eat your snickers bar.
g)Feed the leader fish a shrapnel grenade, the rest will flee with fear.
h)feed them the freeze dried Lawyer in your back pocket.
i)Fill in the blank---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
f)
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Your a funny guy Mike. Thank you, I wanted to say that I appreciated your earlier comments.

...Wanna go fishing sometime?

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K4JSR on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles, you may have accidentally found the true source of boundless energy in the universe; Hate,
discontent, smoke, heat and damned little light found
in replies to a post about anything on Eham.net.
Now if we could just harness all of that and put it to
some useful purpose, other than self indulgence and
spleen venting, we could all become wealthy!
But then, all of this silliness would stop and we would all be productive citizens. Well, heck! That just shut down a good mass scolding!
Rats! (Our favorite between meal snack!)(Yes, we buy
parts from Mouser!)
Oh well, on to the next soap box!
Life sux and then you get hooked on the internet!

73, Cal K4JSR
Sigh, Ga.

Ps. No good deed *EVER* goes unpunished!
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Here is my stupid idea for a rocket that will(NOT) get into space. Just about 62 miles above ground.

I was inspired by the X-prize. $10 million bux for the first group of civilians that get a man into space.

I just saw on the news that they did get one man 62 miles up. He videotaped the experience. NO JOKE!!!!!
He released some M and M's in the cabin. They floated.

This craft is reusable. They must get 62 miles up 2 more times to win the 10 Million dollar prize.
I left out one extreme detail. This craft was not launched from the ground.

They strapped the rocket to a 767. OK, I do not know what ceiling the 767 reached. 35000 feet is a ceiling that is common for trans-atlantic fleight is a number that comes to my mind. There are Jet Pilots on eham.
Maybe they can answer this. Can 60,000 feet be achieved using standard JET-A turbofans.

Back to my flawed un proved rocket.

1)A number of large weather ballons filled with pure hydrogen lift the craft to an uncalculated ceiling. I know very little aeronaughtics.

Say I can acheive 75,000 feet.

2)second stage. The hydrogen ballons are then allowed to leak the hydrogen into a combustion chamber. I know the 02 at that height is thin.
Ignite the hydrogen/air engine.
I will get X amount of thrust. I will get Y amount of altitude from combusting the hydrogen.

3)Third stage- Solid fuel rockets of a rubber polymer and N20. The polymer is optimised with a composite co-polymer to get more thrust than heat when the N20 and rubber are combusted.

The craft is unmanned of course. It is a simple carbon fiber hollow tube. It simply holds a camera and control electronics for setting off the hydrogen engine. I have not decided to combust all the ballons for single thrust or sequentailly combust the hydrogen
ballons/hyrdogen tanks. and the Polymer SRB's. All materials were chosen for low mass and high tensile strength.

I am sure I violated the laws of thermodynamics, and
aerodynamics. I will try to get OHMS law repealed for the week of the flight. Should I go to the supreme court or an insane asylum to get OHMS law repealed

Actually the ignitors are simple Nichrome wire and a battery that is composed of lithium hydroxide. I do not need ohms law repealed. In fact the only formula I have is I squared R=Vloss.

Actually the hydrogen filled ballon stage would work.
I do not have a clue as to how much altitude the H2 filled ballons would provide. Yes liters/spherical volume would help with stage 1 calculation.

The rubber/N20 SRB's are a proven technology. I cannot determain any merit to using hydrogen isotopes
Tritium and dueterium.

The rocket will not have any wasted material. Absolutly no parachute will be used. This does create
a small problem should the rocket re-enter over a highly populated area. More importantly the survivability of the video camera is nil.

Any idea's on this one?
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles TNX FER THE INVITE. I just have to make sure if it is legal to fish NYC style!
City slickers like I do not use fishing rods.

We like to chucK high expolsives into the water.
The fish float to the top, half cooked!!!!

The fish that are most common in the east river are the Trojan Trout and the coney island whitefish!
Sometimes, if your really lucky you will get a tire or a tiolet seat!

The syringefish and crackvile-fish, you simply pick up off the beach after the gangbangers leave.

Sometimes you might get a real CORPUS DELECTI-FISH.
However for some stupid reason, you must call the police. They get the fish! For some reason this type of marine-life is an oxymoron!

 
ITS THAT TIME AGAIN  
by KA4KOE on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
They were Dudes!!!!
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
CLOSE PHILIP. A corpus delecti-fish is a dead dude!

SPEAKING OF WHICH......More dead electrical dudes!

If your holdin out..........I understand.
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
HF2PWA, you must remember Fat Albert the cameraman from
NBC. He died a few years ago.

Remember what he was abe to do?
This dude woud eat tons of white Caste burgers.

You would not want to be within a 2 mies radius if he passed gas!

Went to a hamfest with him. After he let one go, he woud roll up the windows and turn up the heat in the car. He did that with that AE Brillo dude.

Brillo was so mad, he left Albert stranded at a rest station on the Jersey turn pike!

I am going to call my X-rocket ALBERT. Because of his
unique large intestine trick could be classifed as a bio-weapon or a rocket engine!!!!!

I am sure there was enough methane in one of his blast's to power a Saturn 5 rocket!
The saturn 5 does not even use methane for its engine!
 
RE: Emergency Fishing -- NY Style  
by KC8VWM on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"TNX FER THE INVITE. I just have to make sure if it is legal to fish NYC style!
City slickers like I do not use fishing rods."

Mabey we could hire a fishing charter in the Bronx.
I prefer to use live bait myself, perhaps we could hire some live bait from N.Y.'s red light district for this fishing occasion.

Next, I will engage in a process called, "I caught the biggest fish storytelling." This process will usually involve the introduction of a large beverage followed by the introduction of a large shovel for no apparent reason, other than to have one handy just in case such an occasion should arise.

Remember, nothing grows faster in NY city(other than rat's of course) than a fish from the time it bites until the time it gets away.

I will then properly equip you with what is called a "landing net" which purpose will serve useful to help land a large wiggling fish, or alternatively used to drag an inebriated fishing buddy back on shore, but not necessarily in that order.

Now always remember the NY city's sportman's rule. "The bigger the fishing rod used for fishing, the smaller the fish that gets caught." Therefore it is generally required that if "catching" any fish is your main guideline to a successful day on the water, then blaming it on a much smaller fishing rod & cheaper lures purchased from walmart makes for a much better and more convincing arguement if you don't actually catch anything. The primary purpose of purchasing expensive fishing lures is to separate a fisherman from his wallet. Attracting fish is secondary.

A fisherman and a womanizer have one thing in common,
catch and release. Please observe your daily catch limits, otherwise we will have to actually eat the fish and miss out on whitecastle burgers later on.

In NY state it is common to catch a fish missing one "eye", these are called "FSH", not "Fish" Again, this species is missing one "eye."

After you've lost your $500 rod and reel set-up overboard, it is usually customary to engage in a swimming contest activity with your other buddies after power-slamming a 25 oz. can of Fosters to see who can drown first. The winner is obviously the person who can accurately identify that anyone is actually missing 4 hours after the fact. This usually comes to light when you all arrive at whitecastle and the guy you originally wanted to sucker into paying for everyone's food suddenly disappeared into thin air.

If your idea of a great evening is lubing your Shimano while watching "that silly 'ole Fish Fishburne", then you clearly haven't fished in NY city.


 
RE: Emergency Fishing -- NY Style  
by K4JSR on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Dang, guys! I am so glad that I am still normal!
I can say one thing with certainty, though.
Your posts read more like they do today than they ever
have before! Trust me!

73, Cal K4JSR
Happy Happy Joy Joy, Ga.
 
Worried  
by KA4KOE on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I was worried about your energy level, Cal, with all that time you've spent campaigning for Dubyuh....

Must've had some high protein from Ruth's Chris, as you're in rare form today.

Hooo-yah!

Feeleeep
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on September 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Awe C,mon, everybody knows why you bring a shovel when you go fishing! Thats like saying you did not know that OZZY OZBORN curses worse than a drunken sailor on the forth of JULY!

OK the shovel. When a group of dudes go fishin and have a B.A.L of .2 or greater, the BULL SH-- stories
tend to get rather plentyfull.
If you did not have somebody SHOVEL off all the bull sh--, the boat would sink faster then a scuba diver in quick sand!
Can one Scuba dive in quicksand? If not they should try anyway on that TV show fear factor! That would be cooler than ICE BOXING! Hmmmmmm, Reaity TV shows are really boring. I do not watch ANY of them. Survivor is the worst of the lot!
How about "SNUFF FACTOR"".
Simply take survivor and use the GITMO al-queda captured terrorist.
The winner and only survivor wins a hanging then given a fair trial! It could also be called "LAW & SLAUGHTER"?

How does this apply to emergency power-survival style? SIMPLE!!!!!

On the first episode the Al-quesa survivor winner
gets to use solar or bicycle powered electric chair!!!
It does get problomatic to get the condemned survivor
to peddle the bike with the high votage generator!
well....you do have the solar power back up!

To really make it fun. Strap the soon to be dead dude into bicycle at dawn. expain to the dude that peddling the bicycle keeps the solar panel off the power grid. The benefit is that the dude will peddle Like crazy to keep the solar panel relay down.
Better yet use an opto-isolator. We can then see how many kiowatts the survivor dude will peddle out to keep the solar power to electricute the dude.

The real engineering trick is to see if the dude in order to survive will peddle long enough to equal the amount of Joules to electricute the dude!
If the dude generated more electricity then it took to electricute him, did we break a law of physics?
We got more energy out then in. Remember the second law of thermodynamics. Of course if you then use the dead dude as animal feed, this compicates the calculation!!!!

ANY GUESS's


 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on October 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KA4KOE, would you mind if I did paradies and spoofs of YOUR DED's I doubt e-ham would publish most if any of them. I cannot blame them either!!!!!

I Pick out the ones I know I can do a decent job.
My goal is to have people ROTFL or LMAO.

Before I butcher one of your copy righted DEDEs, I thought I should get your permission in front of many.

Think you can handle it?!
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on October 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KA4KOE, would you mind if I did paradies and spoofs of YOUR DED's I doubt e-ham would publish most if any of them. I cannot blame them either!!!!!

I Pick out the ones I know I can do a decent job.
My goal is to have people ROTFL or LMAO.

Before I butcher one of your copy righted DEDEs, I thought I should get your permission in front of many.

Think you can handle it?!
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by K4JSR on October 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Don't do it, Feeeelep!
Mikey just wants to get at your
DED DUDES because he is out of meat
for his famous "Hoffa Burgers" and
famous $5 Rancid hamfest hot dogs!

Had any good slap jacks for breakfast lately?
:-D

HMMMMmmm! This Turner +3 power keyboard seems to
be making me type normal things here lately.
DANGER! DANGER! WILL ROBINSON!

7
3
C
a
l

<THUMP!>
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on October 2, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
iS THE AURORAH projectstill classified?
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on October 2, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Remeber, when you vote.....you can always write somebody in.

There is an old saying...The DA can indict a Ham sandwich. Well A ham sandwich certainly did not hurt anybody, took drugs, or sleep with 19 year old.

A vote for ham sanwich for president IS A VOTE FOR HAM RADIO!!!!!!!

THINK ABOUT NIETHER BUSH OR kERRY HAS SAID ONE WORD ABOUT HAM RADIO.

THATS 700,000 HAMS
ABOUT 100,000 PROCASTINATING BEAUSE OF ANYTHING.
500,OOO COMBINED HOBBY GMRS. CB. CB+ CB++ CB=2KW
TRUCKERS, CHICKEN PLUCKERS.
200,000 SWLERS, SCANNER FREAKS, THERE ARE DUDES THAT TAKE THE OLD UNENCRYTED 900mhz CORDLESS PHONES, THEY MOD
THEM WITH A MOTOROLA 800-900 MHZ POWER BRICKS.

SO THAT IS 700,OOO HAM SANDWITCHES AND ABOUT 2 MILLION ROAST BEEFS!!!!!!!

I AM SURE THAT IS 2.7 MILLION VOTES WILL GWT THE PRESS TO ASK AROUND!!!!!! WE WILL THEN BE NOTICED.

wHO from e-ham should be our candidate for pres?
I am too busy with school
philip is busy
cal ....nah!
charles VFW too busy
HF2pwa, there is too much dirt fkoating around
The 18 other dudes did not want their call assciated with mine. Yet they were the ones that egged me on to do it!

ANY VICTIMS, ANY BODY WANT TO BE PRESIDENT.
THE HAM SANDWICH PARTY BELIEVES THE PRES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME PERKS AS CLINTON AND KENNEDY
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by WA2JJH on October 2, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
oUR PACKAGEFOR THE PRESS
1)LAW AND ORDER
2)PEACE AND QUIET
3)HOMELAND SECURITY
4)TWO HAM RADIO'S IN EVERY POT OR GARAGE
5)MARTHA STEWART $20 WHITE GOLD PIECE THE IDENTICAL SIZE OF A QUARTER!
6)BETTER SCHOOLS ALL MATH AND SCIENCE. NO ART BY LIBERALS!
mANITORY 220v AND ANTEENA FARM
PRISON REFORM-ALL PRISONERS MUST BYCLYCLE FOR 8 HOURS TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY FOR THE POWER GRID.
8 HOURS OF hONERS COLLEGE PREP SCHOOL.8 HOURS FREE TIME
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by VE3TK on October 3, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This should be an entertaining addition to this thread....

Check this out: http://www.zen54564.zen.co.uk/r/field.htm

The author of the article on harnessing static electricity was not that far off, although in a slightly different context!!!

Forget static... in lay terms, the prinicples are correct where you can capacitively or magnetically *couple* to high voltage transmission lines. If done properly, you can capacitively couple into a 500 kV transmission line and draw power. Of course, dangerous voltages can result and the beast is difficult to tame. Think of the utility being able to use their "skywire" on the top of their transmission towers to power remote telemetry equipment. For anyone else, it is a matter of clandestinely stealing power. No perpetual motion machine here.

So Charles, you weren't that far off in thinking "out of the box".
 
DED Spoofs  
by KA4KOE on October 4, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You and I need to discuss this via POTS.

FEE-LEEP
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC5UZD on December 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I did do something like this... I read an experiment from a website about our old buddy Tesla.
I hung an aluminum plate roughly 9"x12" insulated with clear adhesive packing plastic (like 16" tape) around 15' up on my antenna mast. 1 wire ran down to my radio table, and another wire went to the ground spike right outside the window.
Just those 2 wires showed roughly 1/4 of a volt at night, and 1/2 of a volt during bright sunlight, steadily.
I never tried to charge anything with it. Before I experimented more, we moved to a different QTH, and I never set it back up again.

No matter how many people laugh, NEVER stop experimenting. Remember: they laughed about going over 50mph, electric lights, home computers, and the list can go on forever!!!

73, kc5uzd
 
Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by FREEENERGYMAN2005 on July 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Hello, Charles.
I'm Howard Malone, formerly N5SWX, before changes in life as I knew it consumed any time I had for smelling the roses. Life is coming around full circle again and I'm finding time again for experimentation.

I breezed through all the disparaging and derisive comments following your post. Incredible.

I found your post as I was searching for additional information on 'Aerial Capture' devices. Hopefully no one will mind (there's no telling though) some new blood and fresh ideas regarding this unorthodox use of conventional paraphenalia. Your ideas are timely to electrical experimentation and the quest for the grail of alternate energy. It comes as 'Simultaneous Inspiration' to many and appears to be sweeping the planet.

Please indulge me. The following is a very recent letter I sent to a close friend I made when I presided over the Nicola Tesla Association of Tulsa some years ago.


((Hello, Bob.

It was great to hear from you the other night! I'm sorry if I seemed a bit cryptic but you can't be too careful about these things anymore. Although this information is easily had on the net I don't care to be too easily identified with it over the phone.

I'm not currently working on magnetic motors, but I am waiting on a set of quadrupole donut magnets for the purpose of creating an ion source beam projector. http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/IonSourceBeamProjector/index.html .....However, this is not what I wanted to discuss with you.

I don't underestimate your technical understanding or scholastic achievement, but PLEASE read the following material carefully!!!

I have been intensely interested with Dr. Thomas Henry Moray's work ever since you shared that book "The Sea of Energy in Which the Earth Floats." I experimented with large crystal radio sets and aerials for months to little avail.

Well ..... I stumbled onto references to Bruce Perreault's work, which I believe may change the way we think of matter and energy forever.

There are elements of this idea which I want to share first. You know what an electret is, of course. Here is an article on it.
http://www.hasanbalik.com/DOC/anten_odevler/04-05/Elektretler/electret/makinganelectret.pdf#search='making%20an%20electret'

In this next article the 200 ft of insulated wire can possibly be replaced with the electret (which is a coaxial cable with the outer insulation stripped off and turned into an electret using this method).
http://www.nuenergy.org/experiments/perreault_modern_radiant_energy_circuit.htm

The ion valve pictured and discussed here is nothing more than an OC3 Cold Cathode vacumn tube found at Tulsa Guitar and Electronics which fits an octal socket. Cold cathode tubes use thorium oxide to make them electrically active when subjected to high voltage. The following site is a PDF file that takes several minutes to load even if you have DSL. You can't print or save this file to disc. You can, however, add the site to your favorites on you browser to load and view when you wish, which is what I do since it's so rich in information. Anyway, here it is.

http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/bk28.pdf

The center section , begining with page 43, entitled My Research in Radient Energy is the meat of the book. The first section describes the history of Dr. Moray's work. The last section consists of patent drawings. You can also go to http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/radiant_energy_diatribe.htm which is where I put it all togegher (Perreault's modern radient circuit and the electret cable).

This is the Home page for Perreault on which I found the book download.
http://www.nuenergy.org/

Bob, here is another site defining the electret principle.

http://www.keelynet.com/electret.htm

Bob, I'm in the middle of creating my electret coax as I write. I have the ion valve, ignition coil, etc. and will raise my aerial this week. Pray for my success. When you get into Tulsa we'll get together to look at the equipment. We could generate money to further your research by making electrets in bulk, while enjoying free electricity.

I have been, and always shall be, your friend.

Howard))

Charles, I believe the 200 ft, or longer, insulated cable will work handily as you've said. I for one applaud your effort.

Best regards,

Howard
 
RE: Emergency Power -- Survival Style  
by KC8VWM on March 4, 2006 Mail this to a friend!
Thank you.

KC8VWM
 
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