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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

APCO 10-Codes

(KB8UFF) on October 23, 2004
View comments about this article!

Having been a ham for just a little over 10 years now, I have noticed that one of the easiest ways to get belittled by other hams is to use 10 codes on the air. I know that for most of my tenure as a ham I would groan every time I heard '10-4' on our local repeater.

I have started to re-think my position on this and would like to hear the rest of your thoughts. I learned how the police use 10 codes by attending an APCO Basic Telecommunications course. Used properly they save air time and make things easier to understand.

Recently our ARES group has begun to actively recruit new operators. At a public service event a few weeks ago we gained the help of a great new ham who was by profession a firefighter. On occasion he used 10 codes on 2 meter FM phone. More often 10-4 but he used 10-20 once. Everyone knew what he was talking about and out of respect we did not bring this up to him.

10 codes are not illegal if they are not used to hide the meaning of a transmission. I brought up the question of why we are not using 10 codes on a net one night. The negative response was overwhelming. I have taken a few steps back and have come up with some questions. How can the same group that is so concerned about their image that they won't use 10 codes on the air have members that show up to public service events un-bathed and in dirty, worn out clothes? How can the argument of the need to use plain English on phone bands be recognized when most of us use 'Q' codes on phone? Is the resistance to use 10 codes because of CB'ers? Or is it that we don't want to sound like wannabes? (If it is the latter, then why do so many of us have flashing lights on our vehicles?)

My take is that in emergency communications or emergency training, the proper use of APCO 10 codes would be of the same benefit to us as they are to public service operators. I think it is a shame that some type of an ego problem is preventing us from using a more efficient form of communication. BTW, I am talking about PROPER use of 10 codes. For instance it is improper to ask, "What is your 10-20?" and be issued the reply "My 10-20 is First and Main". The proper way would be "10-20?”, answered by "First and Main". The object, of course, is to minimize the amount of words used to convey the exact same meaning.

I am not suggesting codes of any kind for any reason other than to free up air-time in emergency or training communications.

So, there you have it. I know that my position on this is very unpopular but I would like to know more about the exact reasoning and history behind the dislike of 10 codes on the ham bands.

Over and out!

Mark KB8UFF

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KC0KBH on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hams dislike them because they are related to CB. And, everyone knows that a lot of CB'ers are to chicken to get their ticket. Nice article, though.
-Devan, KC0KBH
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by GHOSTRIDERHF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10 codes are great for UHF and VHF -- we use them here on the repeater(s)(s) all the time --mainly most of the guys on the repeatersss are active duty military and fire and police....

People use 10 codes in order to shorten transmission times... and of course we all know that once you get your HF ticket then your whole purpose in life is to take something that is suppose to only take 10 seconds to say and drag it out to at least 5 minutes....

So my theory is those that have things to do and places to go use 10 codes to shorten transmission times while those that have no life and enjoy keying the mike and hearing themselves talk are against it...

10-4?

LOL
 
What is the 10-code for Troll ??  
by WB4M on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Like kc0kbh said, it is too CB-ish. Yes, we all know fire depts. and police use 10 codes but we are not the fire dept or police. I think a lot of hams resent the influx of ignorant CB jargon. I personally would rather you just tell me in plain English whatever it is you wish to say. When you are talking face-to-face with someone, do you use 10-codes? I didn't think so.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by AMATEURRADIODOTCA on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wow! What a great topic!

I can't agree with you more about concern for image when we have hams show up in dirty clothes and unshaven. I must say, I've rarely heard anyone belittle someone on the air for using 10 codes, but at the same time I've heard plenty of hams belittle CB, FRS and other groups for their radio procedures.

One thing I know is that all these people who complain about 10 codes and CB actually end up making AR look a whole lot worse. Thank you for posting this topic.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AC5E on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Some 55 years ago I was taught the proper procedure for AMATEUR use was to say what you meant to say. IF the situation called for the use of "Q Codes" such as QSY, QRV, QSL, QRT, QTH, etc., the Q codes should be used. We occasionaly used some of the Phillips codes, such as 30 (three zero) for end of message, 73 for best regards, etc., etc..

There's nothing inherently wrong with "my 20 is" except television has overworked the 10 codes and CB has associated them with bear watchers, seatcover oglers, the "flash me bandits," and the like.

As such, and regardless of how useful they are to police and fire personell they are much on par with a State Trooper who once announced "H!LL I'n not no city kitty, I'm a full growed bear." Sort of startled the breakfast bunch in a Bob Evans.

We really need to sound as professional as possible, we have a far more comprehensive set of exclusively radio codes that can be learned as easily as any others, including the ten codes, and we should learn them and use them properly. Otherwise, stick to conversational English.

73 Pete Allen AC5E
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W3JKS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
One of the "Lessons Learned" from the emergency responses associated with the events of 9/11 was that the use of 10-codes causes confusion in a multi-agency response (actually, this is old news to the Fire Service where mutual aid is common). Not everyone uses the APCO version of the codes. For example, a 10-50 in Cecil County MD is a motor vehicle accident. In the adjoining state of Delaware, it means "notify the medical examiner". I know that the state of Delaware has gone to plain-language dispatch. A lot of large cities have, as well.

10- codes don't save much air-time and have the potential to cause confusion.

Don't even get me started on people who say "over and out".... :-)

73,
john
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3O/AAA9AC
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WA8VBX on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Nice article, and I can relate to it. I have been a ham for almost 40yrs, spent 21 in the military in communications, and now have 8yrs with a local police/fire department as a dispatcher. When I first started as a dispatcher I used some of the military codes and caught some flak(military jargon) from that. Now sometimes after I have had a hard day at work, I by mistake use a 10 code like 10-4 on 2 meters, and catch some flak(more military jargon) from that. So who has the problem, well in my opinion it is those that make the rude and crude comments. If they would come and say I understand what you mean by using the 10-? code, but in ham radio we use ---- (you fill it in), and educate them, and not necessarily the correct way but the one most commonly use for their area.
The 10 code (started before APCO came about) are not the only thing different, we also use a different phonetic code in our dispatching.

Again nice article.
Kurt
WA8VBX
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KT0DD on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Didn't Barney Fife say..."Roger, Wilco, Over & Out"? :)
73, Todd
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AC5E on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Chuckle! Barney Fife wasn't the only one. A few of post WWII civilian pilots who were overexposed to movie flying from the old Republic serials also said "Roger, Wilco, over and out."

Meaning "message Recieved, Will comply, Please respond, recieve off." Which does not make a lot of sense either.

73 Pete Allen AC5E
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WTF52 on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Actually, the use of "over and out" is incorrect in military communication. If you expect a response, say "over", to end the communication, say "out" (and not ("out here").

Dwight K3WVU
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N8GNI on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Mark said "(If it is the latter, then why do so many of us have flashing lights on our vehicles?)"
I've not seen that? The only flashing lights that are on my vehicles are used for turn signals!
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by GHOSTRIDERHF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I would rather hear a group of people use 10 codes like CBrs then listen to them cuss like some Amateur Extras on 40 meters...

There is a time and place for everything -- and like i said before -- we use 10 codes on most of the repeaters here and no one complains at all -- 10 codes are part of our daily lives ... but thats the biggest problem with most hams -- they feel that whatever they personally feel is the right way for them to operate should be the right way for everyone to operate...

every single UHF/VHF repeater community just like every single HF bandwidth has a unique personality associated with it and this difference should be embraced by the ham community -- not scorned...

just becuase I like hamburgers doesn't mean that everyone else has to ...

so if you want to use 10 codes with the rest of us on our repeaters that we frequent feel free... of course when I come to your community i will respect your inherent ham culture and adapt or simply not use it...

I guess that the great thing about all of our transceivers not being fixed freq -- if we hear something that annoys us we simply can move on (except those that are hell bent on commenting on every single thing as if they are God themselves and pushing their beliefs of their-way-or-the-highway views on everyone)
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W4WLZ on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I believe, I am not sure there is a part of the FCC part 97 rules that forbids using a coded language or secret code in voice transmissions. I seem to remember this for the exam material when I studued for my ticket.. I too, like most other hams, resent being classed with the CB ers, as they are not respected by the general population for many reasons.. They certainly use a lot of language that is prohibited on the HAM bands, and I wouldn't want my wife to be expossed to that kind of language..The speaking coded language came about around WWII the really big on when the governmant was concerened the nazis were sending coded transmisions the the Fatherland. This was the reason, to the best of my memory..73 from JAX, FL Joe
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by GHOSTRIDERHF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W4WLZ

So your saying thats its wrong to use 10-20 but OK to use QTH ??

seems like a double satndard
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KD4AC on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
My only thought on this is that there are subtle differences between the APCO 10-codes and what CBers use for 10-codes. Granted, a few of them are the same (10-4, 10-20) but others are different. I think HAMS frown on them because a lot of amateurs got their start in CB and learned the 10-codes there.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by OBSERVER11 on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Mark and others;
The APCC 10-code is frowned upon in the Amateur Service because the 10-code is closely linked to the CB service.

Hams do not think of themselves as cop wannabees, the APCC 10-code is... PUBLIC SERVICE. Most hams do not think of themselves as cop wannabees, camp followers, or fire truck chasers.

If you want to use 10-codes, then go where they are welcome.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WY3X on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
As a (recently) retired professional firefighter and 15 year amateur radio operator, I have been exposed to both worlds. I don't make fun of anybody- having been taught at an early age by my parents that it's not polite to make fun of ignorant people. (Ignorant not meaning stupid, just unknowledgeable, by reason that they have not been taught properly.) It is in everyone's interest as an amateur radio operator to educate other amateur operators so they don't embarrass themselves by a faux pas. However, as we can see from this representative sample, different geographic areas have different "customs", so learning "how to be a ham" in one area may not apply to another area, at least on VHF/UHF. For instance, in my area, we sign on a repeater by saying "YOURCALL listening". Somewhere else, it is simply "YOURCALL". Some places "CLEAR" when ending a conversation will get you in trouble (metaphorically speaking). In my neck of the woods, if you don't say "clear", others will think you're still involved in a conversation and will try not to interrupt you. If we hear "BREAK" on the local repeater, we will pause for you to handle your communications emergency. In some areas, it's perfectly acceptable to use "BREAK" to join into an ongoing conversation. I can witness to this because we have visitors to our area as a tourist destination (Myrtle Beach, SC), and I see/hear the customs from many different places. As they say- different strokes for different folks. Use what you want, I'll make mental adjustments on my end to accomodate your different operating technique! And I won't chastise you on the air or in person. I part your company with the following observation- our fire department banned the use of 10 codes in favor of plain language to be more clearly understood. A second taken to properly explain something is better than a 10 code in haste that may cost a life! As another writer stated, interagency communications using 10 codes can get you in trouble because 10 codes aren't the same from place to place. As a side note- in parts of Florida, and perhaps other places, firefighters use "QSL" and not 10-4!

-KR4WM
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by TIMOTHIUS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I believe, I am not sure there is a part of the FCC part 97 rules that forbids using a coded language or secret code in voice transmissions"

The Q codes ae a form of coded language or secret code too, if we want to look at it like that. But that brings up another issue. Hams have their own codes that I think were used long before the apco codes. I think that these codes are sufficient. perhaps there not as effective and as quick as the apco codes but they are more than sufficient for me.

Thanks

Tim, ke5bhf
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WY3X on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Almost forgot- running "lights" on a car would be severely frowned upon here. Even the local volunteer firefighters have to bring a signed letter from their auto insurance company stating that the vehicle is covered for responding to emergencies or their chief will not allow them to install lights and/or sirens. Our ARES/RACES group only responds when called, and the only time we're called is for hurricane duty (always a non-emergent response). For liability reasons I won't get into here, most EMT's and paramedics in my state continue to drive past auto accidents, and displaying emergency-related bumper stickers is discouraged because it creates a "duty to respond". Nothing will get you as bad of a reputation with your peers (as a paid firefighter/medic) than putting a bunch of bumper stickers on your car or rotating lights that tell the public you're a firefighter and/or medic. It's kind of like saying "hey, I'm a kiss up!". For a good dose of reality (about putting lights on your personal vehicle) go visit www.hamsexy.com.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by V73NS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Then reason for the dislike of the 10 Codes is, if allowed, they will further dumb-down the Amateur Radio hobby. Next thing you know you'll hear people calling out "there's a bear in the grass" reports.

It is NOT 11 meters!

There's a few back in the states I have heard use terms like "thanks for the flowers" in place of 'thanks', and "I think you might need to put some more fire in the wire" rather that 'you're not making the machine.'

What's next... Echo Boxes?

Want to play like a kid, stay on 11, want to be a ham... do as hams do.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
(KB8UFF) on October 23, 2004

"...
I know that for most of my tenure as a ham I would groan every time I heard '10-4' on our local repeater."

It would have been nice if you had told us why you felt that way then. Please do.

"...
I have taken a few steps back and have come up with some questions. How can the same group that is so concerned about their image that they won't use 10 codes on the air have members that show up to public service events un-bathed and in dirty, worn out clothes?"

Easily. The first involves operating norms. The second does not - it involves personal hygiene and clothing.
They are like comparing apples and oranges.
Operating is an action. It is learned behaviour. Anyone can learn to operate correctly. There is no excuse for not doing so.

There can be a multitude of reasons for lack of personal hygiene and good clothing. However, you are correct in that these things do present a bad image.


"How can the argument of the need to use plain English on phone bands be recognized when most of us use 'Q' codes on phone?"

I suspect you are referring to 'QSL', 'QRM' and 'QTH', as these seem to be the most popular.
Again, this concerns operating norms, and most hams accept the use of these - as long as there use is limited. Remember - the list of 'Q' signals is quite long, and by far most of them are not used with voice communications.


"Is the resistance to use 10 codes because of CB'ers? "

Of course. Who would want to sound like some of the morons from the Clown Band?


"Or is it that we don't want to sound like wannabes? (If it is the latter, then why do so many of us have flashing lights on our vehicles?)"

I've never seen flashing lights on a ham's vehicle. Perhaps this is a problem in your area.


"My take is that in emergency communications or emergency training, the proper use of APCO 10 codes would be of the same benefit to us as they are to public service operators. I think it is a shame that some type of an ego problem is preventing us from using a more efficient form of communication."

What are you implying? What "ego problem" ?


"BTW, I am talking about PROPER use of 10 codes."

Proper use of them, for example, would be for police and fire department use. Ham radio is not the proper use of them.

"For instance it is improper to ask, "What is your 10-20?" and be issued the reply "My 10-20 is First and Main". The proper way would be "10-20?”, answered by "First and Main". The object, of course, is to minimize the amount of words used to convey the exact same meaning.

I am not suggesting codes of any kind for any reason other than to free up air-time in emergency or training communications. "

While your intent is noble, your theory won't work. As you've illustrated the difference between improper and proper use of '10' codes above, it would never come to pass. It would just create more confusion between those doing it properly and those doing it improperly. It becomes a matter or real world efficiency - you really wouldn't see that much difference in saved time by using a '10' code vs. the plain language with which we are all already familiar.


73
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB9YZL on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Good article!

I’ve often wondered the same thing myself:……Why do some have an objection to an “On-Air Abbreviation” if it is concise, and understood by all?

Personally, I learned the NATO Prowords a long time before I gave any thought to the Ham “Q Codes”, and they still tend to slip out in moments of duress. No one has ever taken it upon themselves to “correct” me on those occasions!

In my opinion, anyone who has an allergic reaction to a “10 Code” should sign off, go home, and sort their pocket protectors. They are clearly letting trivia dominate their life!

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by GHOSTRIDERHF on October 23, 2004

"
So your saying thats its wrong to use 10-20 but OK to use QTH ?? "

Sure.


"seems like a double satndard "

Of course it is. There is the standard that the Clown Band uses, and the standard that hams use.

The Clown Band is chaos. The ham bands have evolved from a rich and long tradition and standards.

When along comes someone that wants to trample on these established norms, the hams that have been around and have learned them well, react by voicing their objection.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by PHINEAS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10 Codes

I don't see a thing wrong with them, but I would like to see a standard use of them if they are going to be used. This does not mean I think that 10 codes are needed. What is the difference in saying 10-4 and OK. How about "my location is" and QTH? When you want to be a little private to civilians, or want ot save a few characters on CW, then I can see it.

It is also funny how the same people the complain about these 10 codes probably use abbreviations on CW. In my opinion, what is the difference in OM = "Old Man" on CW, and saying 10-20? Nothing. Just another radio gastapo mind trick. Heck, CW is a code not everyone listening can understand.

I think the main problem is some snobby people having a problem with a few CB people invading their country club. If you do not want to talk to someone using 10 codes, and it offends you that much, either do not talk to these people at all, or let them know that you do not like it.

Just that simple.

Phineas
K0KMA
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W3ZV on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
As a firefighter/emt in a system that uses "plain speak" for all communications, I can honestly say that using no codes at all enhances communication and understanding. Newcomers to the system adapt to the radio very quickly. I suspect that Q signals in ham radio may discourage new hams. And look at all the time we old timers spend arguing about the use of 73 vs 73s; or the proper use of QRZ etc.

Q signals have a place which is to speed up cw communication. English works fine on phone modes. 10 codes confuse everyone, including my local police department where you often here things like "what is the location of your 10-20" or "Okay, 10-4 on that"

Best Regards

Ron W3ZV
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by KB9YZL on October 23, 2004


"I’ve often wondered the same thing myself:……Why do some have an objection to an “On-Air Abbreviation” if it is concise, and understood by all? "

See above.


"Personally, I learned the NATO Prowords a long time before I gave any thought to the Ham “Q Codes”, and they still tend to slip out in moments of duress."

This is understandable.

" No one has ever taken it upon themselves to “correct” me on those occasions! "

Perhaps they realized you were under duress.


"In my opinion, anyone who has an allergic reaction to a “10 Code” should sign off, go home, and sort their pocket protectors. They are clearly letting trivia dominate their life! "

In my opinion, anyone that intentionally flouts the time proven, established norms of ham radio should sign off, go home and perhaps try the Clown Band. They are clearly showing that they lack respect and courtesy.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N6XA on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Ther is a good reason for the Q codes that hams use. It is the same code, such as qth, qsl, qrm for voice AND for morse code, or digital for that matter.

Trying to use 10 codes for cw would not work well. First of all, you would have to send a hyphen. Second, sending three letters is a lot easier than three or four numbers and something to represent a hyphen (not really sure how that would be done). Thirdliest :-), and while I am not really that farmiliar with all the 10 codes, I don't think there are codes that are as specific as qrn verses qrm. Nor do I believe there is a exact equivelent to RST, ok so that is not a q code, but it is universal for all modes.

Anyway, if you use both cw and voice, the Q codes make a lot more sense than the 10 codes which were designed just for voice communications.

Soooo, 10-4 good buddies, OOOOPS! I mean 73 OM, wait that is not a q code either, well let's just not all qrn each other about these posts.

Ed

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by G3VGR on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Ever thought of trying plain English instead? It's a wonderful language with a huge vocabulary and deserves to be used more often.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by X-WB1AUW on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Great inane, totally useless topic that is sure to generate a lot of replies.

There have been past topics on this; simply do a search, and read the answers.

I live in an area with at least two different cultures. In one cultural restaurant I order pollo, in the other restaurants I order chicken. In a “Mexican” style place I order a tortilla; in an “Indian” style place I order nan (unless I’m near the reservation where I order fried dough). Pretty simple?!

If you can’t keep the CB culture separate from Ham culture, just try a little harder.

Even though they used to be called condensers, we now all call them capacitors.

Contrary to your beliefs, some/many hams don’t know 10 codes.

Bob

PS: it is BALUN, not BALUM—yes, I know what people mean when they call it a balum. AND, it is a lot shorter to rend R rather than 10 with a dash, and then 4.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB7LYM on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Its the fault of the Old Farts that sit there brooding like Old worn out Rooster and just monitor the bands to see if anyone of the young leper Hams dares to say 10 - 4
I myself have a son who is in the Fire Department and also a daughter who is a 911 operator

Everyone in Canada and the US knows what 10-4 means.

But like I tell you.... you have to do what the Old pecking Roosters tell you. They will moan and groan and tell you that their Fathers and Forefathers did it and so should we.

From BIG DUTCH on I-95 saying 10-4

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K1CJS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that the best argument for not using 10 codes is the non-standardization of the meaning of the individual codes themselves. To those who say they're a carry over from CB or 11 meters, I say: Where do you think the CB crowd got them from? They got them from the police and the public safety bands and from TV shows. They weren't invented exclusively for use of the CBers.

Granted, saying what you mean instead of using codes is probably better and clearer to everyone involved, but using 10-codes should also be acceptable. If not, using Q codes for anything but CW should also be unacceptable--and don't try to hand out the rubbish that Q codes were invented for ALL ham radio useage either. Q codes were meant to shorten the time needed to send messages BY CODE, not by phone. As someone said, plain english is far better for phone use.

10 codes should be acceptable for ARES use--if the codes are standardized and published so all can be sure of the meaning of the code sent.
 
KISS  
by VE8NX on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I find it much simpler to use plain english. There is a move in this direction, especially with ICS being used by more and more agencies and the need to be able to clearly understand what the msg is.

You can say all you want about 10 codes, Q-codes or fancy-schmancy special codes, but If I have several machines in the air, a few hundred firefighters and a whack of equipment running around (often from several agenices) I don't have time to memorise alot of usless codes.

The whole point is to get the message across clearly and succinctly.

 
RE: KISS  
by W5HTW on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This subject has been beat around a few times on eHam and elsewhere.

Here's my take, abbreviated.

Ham radio has nearly 100 years of tradition behind it and its own lingo. CB radio has about 40 years behind it and its own lingo. Why this urgent need for CBers coming into ham radio to corrupt OUR traditions and replace them with CB traditions? Why not JOIN instead of divide? Why not become a Ham, instead of a CBer on ham bands?

Why do you feel the right and need to turn ham radio into CB, and impose upon hams the CB traditions? Every sport or hobby has its own language. Will we be forced to call a bowling strike a "hole in one?" Come on, give us hams some freedom to have OUR language, style and traditions, without tearing it apart.

Ed
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KC0NPF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The only reason I dislike 10 codes is that all the kids at school hear them on tv all the time, they have no idea what they mean (except 10-4)... it kinda makes them sound dumb when they act like they're talking on a radio (like my ht) I hate to do that, make them sound dumb, but oh well..

If you're police or volunteer fire (or fulltime fire) by all means, use them when talking to others who are in your force, but don't expect every ham to know what they mean.


KC0NPF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W8JI on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
All the local emergency services (fire, police) are trying to BREAK the habit of using 10 codes.

They confuse people when different agencies communicate. They are the first things to be misunderstood when someone is chopping out. They are also generally not necessary.

IMO, anyone using them needs to be encouraged NOT to.

73, Tom
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by LNXAUTHOR on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
quote from article:

"How can the same group that is so concerned about their image that they won't use 10 codes on the air have members that show up to public service events un-bathed and in dirty, worn out clothes? "

- is this a stereotype, factual observation, or definitive probability? somehow i find this offensive (but don't take offense, mind you)... but take a trip to the local Wally World and you'll see the same thing...

- W3JKS nailed the issue from a practical perspective, but i'll throw in my US$0.02:

Q codes are universally understood AROUND THE WORLD while 10 codes vary around the U.S....

- the next time you're making that DX contact, try:

"What's your 20, good buddy?"

:-)

- btw, i have a suggestion for a new ARRL campaign:

Return 11M to Amateur Radio Service!

[it's been gone too long?]
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KD4AC on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Then reason for the dislike of the 10 Codes is, if allowed, they will further dumb-down the Amateur Radio hobby."

So, using your logic, using a 10-code makes one stupid or dumb? How do you come to that conclusion?
 
lid avoidance technique #1  
by KZ1X on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Using 10-codes and Qxx CW abbreviations on 'phone makes you sound like a lid.

If you want to sound like a lid, be my guest.

I usually try *not* to sound like a lid.

But, that's just me.
 
RE: KISS  
by AE6IP on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Every hobby has its participants who are strict traditionalists. They tend to assume that it has always been done the way they learned to do it. They also assume that it will always be done the same way. Some of them feel that it is their role to make sure that it never changes.

The funny thing is that the more arbitrary the tradition is, the more strident those who support it are.

The traditionalists are harmless, and it costs nothing to humor them. (Translation: When in Rome, speak Latin)

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by SFD301 on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Funny,

As a professional firefighter we're being retrained to use plain english on transmissions. The purpose of this is the events of 911 when multiple agencies had different difinitions for some of the codes leading to confusion.

We us 10-
95- arriving
98- small fire
99- fully involved structure
now we use arriving, request PD, etc.

Unless any mutual aid agency knows and understands some of your "offset" codes bad things can happen.

interesting though...

geo
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W9AFR on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You guys are a Hoot!!


The only one who got this right was N6XA. The Q code started with Morse code. They were used as shorthand because it was faster to send three alphabetic characters in Morse code. Example QRG stands for Will you tell me my exact frequency.

You will find this information in the ARRL book “Operating Manual”. Chapter one table 1-3.

I am not sure, but I would believe the 10 codes started with Fire and Police and most likely with the use of voice radio by these folks. The 10 is like our Q, the “-“ is ignored and the last one or two characters has meaning, such as 20 for where are you or what your location.

The Q code became the Amateur radio standard because they were already in use well before the advent of CB. The CB folks use the 10 code because of the police and TV shows and Movies such as Highway patrol (who always started the show with 10-4 and of course the Smoky and the Bandit.

The reason Ham do not like the 10 codes and insist on using “Q” codes is because it defines us as Amateur radio operators (Hams) and not CBers.

73

W9AFR



 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K3CLT on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This looks like it might be the regional meeting of the KKK, or the Ham Police. I can't tell which.
I was a CB'er, and a good one. I installed a lot of radios and built a lot of good stations.
Now I am a ham. I started out as a novice, and then a no-code tech, and next to general, and now to extra.
I am no better a person now as a ham than I was as a cb'er.
The only difference between the two bands is that the equipment cost a bunch more and we now have more bands to use.
The people are still the same. Just look at some of the posts.
I'M A HAM AND YOUR NOT AND THAT MAKES ME SO MUCH BETTER.
Now if we could just get all these posters to actually talk to someone rather than just lurk in the shadows waiting for the CB wantabe to come along and commit the mortal sin.
I wonder if these guys keep a log book to keep track of all the violators they catch.
These are the same hams who tune up on you if you come on their frequency 20 minutes before there net is due to start.
Look at some of these ham cops that post here on a regular basis. They don't even post their call signs. Hell, they are still using handles...
10-4 Good Buddy, I'll catch you on the flip flop....chuck
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KA5ROW on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I don't like the 10 codes either. It's like bringing the CB world to the ham band, and that is not going to happen. We should in a nice way tell them in privet that most ham's don't like 10 codes and some may not like you for it.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AA2QA on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hi guys

A most interesting convesation. Frankly, plain language is better (for the most part) with voice communications. On CW, the q-codes are the way to go; besides, do you really want to send "10-4" rather than "r" on CW? (this is *not* intended to start a code/no code debate LOL)

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by V73NS on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by KD4AC on October 23, 2004
"Then reason for the dislike of the 10 Codes is, if allowed, they will further dumb-down the Amateur Radio hobby."

So, using your logic, using a 10-code makes one stupid or dumb? How do you come to that conclusion?

Easy...
*Ask a tech to take a 5 WPM test.
*Give a tech an old novice license test and see if they pass.
*Listen to most any 2 meter repeater.
*Ask them what is a 6146?
*Ask them why they bought a wire antenna when they could make one.
*Ask why are they using 10 Codes which are not accepted.

It's not that no one will teach them these things, they mostly do not want to learn them. As one posted up the page a bit says, its like them taking up bowling and calling a strike a hole in one.... which its not and just because that's what they wish to call it does not make it right.

Remember the short lived idea not to correct the spelling of children, as is can make them feel bad... simply know that they tried to use the right spelling and give them credit for that? HA!

Too many want everything for nothing. Last I checked, I was never rewarded for being lazy. This is not mob rule, this is the way the Amateur Service is, and when in Rome, they should do as the Roman's do.

Respect and tradition are a thing of the past, and this is only because there are people who don't care.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4RAF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is a hoot:

As an avid scanner listener for over 32 years:

You can use Q-signals on phone - no problem

You can use "handle, lid, hihi, ragchew, XYL, harmonics, saltmine, destinated, fine business" - no problem

BUT you guys go bats over using 10 codes because they sound "stupid"?

Priceless...
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JSR on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This whole thread is a hoot! People arguing over
something like the 10 codes, which are not standard
throughout the country. Also just to stir the kettle
a little, how many of you are aware that various law
enforcement agencies in south Florida use Q signals?
Last time I was in Miami I was asking an officer for
directions when he was asked on his talkie what his
QTH was.
He told the other officer where he was and got a QSL
in reply. I asked if they routinely used the Q codes
and was told that was all they used except for a
numerical code for the type of call they were responding to.
So argue away. Have fun! But just remember that many
law enforcement agencies are going for plain english
in their voice transmissions. Secure stuff will be done digitally in the future.

73, Cal K4JSR
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Last I checked, I was never rewarded for being lazy.

Sorry to hear that. "Being lazy", ie, finding an easier way to do a job, has made a lot of people wealthy.

There's nothing evil about 10-codes. Some (not that many, actually) hams, don't like them, and it's polite to tolerate their affectations; but the world doesn't end because someone says 10-4.

Using Q codes on voice is actually bad amateur practice -- see any edition of the handbook for details -- but there's nothing evil about that either.

Bad mouthing the CB radio service because of the trouble makers is like deciding that all amateurs are just like the toilet mouths on 75m.

Traditions are fine, as far as they go, but nothing in this universe is static, not even ham radio traditions.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by DAILYREGULARITY on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I started out as a Novice, and then a no-code Tech..." Just wonderin, if you started out as a Novice, when you went to Tech, wouldn't you have been a Tech Plus or Tech with code????
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KL7IPV on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Dailylreg...., I went from Novice to Tech but that was BEFORE they had No Code Techs. There was such a period of time that happened.

As for 10 codes, the Metro police here in Vegas use plain language instead of any codes. Maybe it is because they understand the English language and don't need 10 codes or it is because there are so many variations of the 10 code. If I hear it being used, so what? Move on and enjoy.
73
Frank
KL7IPV
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W7WIK on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The "10" codes are inappropriate on phone in the same way that Q-signals are (for the most part) inappropriate on phone. Plain english should be used on phone because it avoids confusion - especially when one moves to the HF bands and the other operator (in another country) has no clue as to what the crazy American is talking about.

Ham radio has a protocol that most operators world-wide know. To throw in the 10-codes will only add confusion.

I, and many other hams, did not come up through the CB "ranks". My first radio contact was on 40M CW. I wouldn't have a clue as to what you're talking about when using 10-codes (aside maybe from the ubiquitous "10-4 good buddy"). It is inappropriate to use them in amateur radio.

73,
Marco, W7WIK
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AB8TM on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10-4, i'll be 10-10 after i 10-100 and 10-200, we're 10-7,for now 10-4?
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by VE4HAM on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
All this 10 -4, QTH and the like really aggravates me to death.........like man......keep the phonetics off VHF or whatever. Use it only if communications are vital and repeats are necessary to confirm details not understood. I really hate phonetics on VHF, UHF .....clear as a whistle so why the long drawn out phonetics. Cut the codes, just chat away........I'm in so and so, and see ya later, I'm outta here. Out. Simple. I can't stand all of it. Why not talk normally ? , instead bring all this coded jargon in. I'm outta here......fine with me. 25 yrs as a Ham.....an I still tire of it.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB1IVU on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
****Is this another code-no code argument?****
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K9KJM on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Are the hams who object to the use of the 10 codes
the same ones who are planning on jumping in to rescue
local agencies when there are communications problems?

As already mentioned, PLAIN voice is the best bet. This is being drummed in to law enforcement, fire, ambulance and other users of radio systems in this area. In a big disaster, forget the fancy codes of all types. But the use of "10-4" (And a few very common others) is universal. And saves time on the air. Use whatever your local served agencies use. Whatever you do, DONT throw a few "Q" signals into a conversation when you are assisting your local public service groups!
This discussion has brought up a good point. I think I will start using "10-4" today! (I will try to leave out the "good buddy" part, even in jest)
If your radio activities include communications with military types, Some of the prowords would also be appropriate.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB2GOF on October 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry, I use neither. Life is too short to get upset over such things. I was a CB'er, now I is a Ham. I can understand both 10 codes and Q codes, and criticize no one for using either when I hear 'em. Isn't that the best policy?
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N6XA on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I should probably let this drop. But a couple of things became clear to me in reading the various responses.


First off, what a local repeater group decides is appropriate for communicating does not need justification, as long as it is legal.

Second, the ten codes do NOT predate Q codes or plain English for communicating. Nor, are they clearer or more effective.

Lastly, many responders have referred to hams who are firefighters or in other public service agencies which use the 10 codes. The problem is that different public service groups have some 10 coes which are unique to their own agency. Thus confusion can arise or a code may be missinterpreted because it means one thing to the sender and something differnet to who is listening from another agency with slightly different codes. Probably what bugs me about those who support using 10 codes because public agencies use them is the implication that because the police and fire department use them, they must therefore be more offical or credibile. I feel no need to copy the police or firefighters. Why,Not because of snobbery? Because hams have proven to be effective clear COMMUNICATORS all on our own! What we use and the way MOST hams communicate is clear, concise, and to the point. At least as good as what I have heard on the scanner. And to our credit, our way of communicating does not need translation between one region of the country and another. As was pointed out by others, some agencies had problems on 9-11 because their codes we not standardized beyond their own department. But in fairness to those departments, we have an asset they don't. On HF at least, we often are talking with with people over great distances amd sometimes to those in other countries. They may speak another language and know only a little english, yet we can often communicate with them. Standardized q codes, such as QTH, QRM, QSL, or even RST help simplify the language we communicate in. For example, I can only count to six and say thank you in Japanes, yet many times have had good QSO's with Japanese hams who can only apeak slightly more English. We have a great asset with our truly UNIVERSAL codes and abbreviations. Can you imagine if we start using CB or Police 10 codes on internation HF transmissions???

Let us not abandon what works. And, let us not create confusion between HF and VHF/UHF communication.


73 es sk

Ed
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6QE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Even in the military, the only time I have used codes was to pass sensitive information on an "uncovered" circuit. Otherwise, I was taught to say what I mean, mean what we say, and no more. I understand the traditions of the Q-signals, and the desire for 10-codes by some, but:

1. "Train like you fight". If you are helping in an actual disaster, where bystanders might be listening on the net for coordination sakes, don't use language they won't understand. And, from experience, hams converse in emergencies more or less the same way we ragchew.

2. I totally concur with the numerous posts by those serving on fire and police departments about 10 codes. Any scanner buff would concur. In some areas, a city's codes are different than their parent county's codes!

So, not to put tradition down or anything, but let's just keep it simple on voice, and have less to memorize and then try to remember when we need it.

- Rickey / AE6QE
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KX8N on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"****Is this another code-no code argument?**** "

Heh, I could talk about a bear taking a crap in the woods, and it would turn into a code, no code argument.

Police and Emergency Services use the words "signal" and "code".
CB uses 10 codes.
Amateur radio uses Q codes.

I wouldn't get on the radio and talk about a signal 21 or something. Other amateurs wouldn't know what I was talking about.

Howevever, if I say "QTH", any ham knows I'm talking about my home. I hear QTH, QSY, QRT, QRN, and QRM on SSB all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that. The whole point of Q codes is efficiency. Which is easier, saying "alot of QRM", or saying "some jerk started trasmitting too close, and I'm having trouble hearing you"? I pick the former.

10 codes are CB codes.
Q codes are ham codes.
That's why hams don't need to be using 10 codes, any more than they should be using their ham call signs on CB channels.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K7NNG on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey everyone. Its simple, 10 codes have NO place in ham radio, and anyone that uses "Q" signs on voice sound stupid and untrained as they are. Q signs are for CW only, come on, whats the argument??? It all boils down to newbies with improper training, and CB type folks who think they are "cool" while we in the know think they are stupid idiots. my two cents
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by SFD301 on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
LOL, and I thought that HAMS would have great attitudes and welcome a newbie that has no trainning into the circle....LOL! Maybe so many are not trained that well because clubs like the ones in my area have stopped offering classes, and the ARRL charges $135 to take an online course! Why could this be? Lack of interest because of the superior attitudes that I'm beginning to see from some HAMS after only a few days.

It seems that soom of you guys need to loosen up and worry more about getting young people into the hobby instead of how someone sounds when using Q codes on the phone side. I take my test 11/1 for the tech, followed by a general in a couple of month's. My first act is to get some scouts involved to give something before I get something.

geo
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by KX8N on October 24, 2004

"
"****Is this another code-no code argument?**** "

Heh, I could talk about a bear taking a crap in the woods, and it would turn into a code, no code argument.
..."

Bear crap is more like dahs.
Dear crap, or especially rabbit crap - - now those are definitely dits.

>g<
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K1ZF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Isn’t it interesting that most of the replies defending use of the ten code come from people who are ashamed to post their calls… or do they even have calls?

Interesting…


Gene, K1ZF

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB9JTK on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
When I first got involved in R.A.C.E.S. 25 years ago, they showed us several lists of "standard 10 codes" and pointed out how the 'standards' had different meanings for many of them.

The Q abbreviations only have one published meaning each.

And Q's are international.

If you started using 10's on the air you would not get anywhere when talking to anyone outside the U.S. of A.
 
Static  
by KA4KOE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Traditions are fine, as far as they go, but nothing in this universe is static, not even ham radio traditions."

Seems like everytime I get on HF, all I hear is static.

 
DODO BIRDS STILL PECKING AWAY * * * *  
by KB7LYM on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
HOT DEBATES ABOUT 10-4

Its amazing to see how all those that are stuck in the mud
and like to see nothing changed in the way the OLD ham
language was created. Like pre-historic Dodo birds they
sit on their perches and pick lint from the crevasses of
their aged bodies. They would like to stop the clock,
go back in time and just pretent there is no place for
anything else except their old rusting past

If I have to fight beside one of those Old do not see, hear or change
anything Birds, in the next War, I shoot them myself !
I have a much better way coming out in one piece than dragging
that Old Bird along.

10-4 KB7LYM
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by G0GQK on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Is plain English too difficult ?
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WIRELESS on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hams are still on a " I am superior because I have a ham license " trip. It is probably never going to change. Most hams are petty, insecure, crude people and the childish name calling by the eHam regulars will continue as always when anything they do is challenged, like 10 codes. Some things never change.
 
APCO 10-Codes, Q-signals, and Proper English  
by KM5EW on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I started in radio communications when I was 12 years old (in 1976), and I monitored every radio I could get my hands on. That included CB radio, shortwave radio, police scanners, and anything else available to me at the time.

As a result of monitoring all of these services, I learned the proper communications practices and protocols of each service, and I followed those practices according to the radio service that I was using at any particular time. Of course, all services use different communications procedures and codes in different forms and fashions...and should be followed accordingly.

To me, usage of one code that is meant for one service that is applied to another is just asking for confusion. Proper English is certainly the best way to go on many services, but it's understood by most that Q-signals are meant for the CW portions of the amateur bands. 10-codes and other similar codes should be used for CB and for public service operations IF the codes are standardized and understood by all that use those services. "Cross-servicing" 10-codes, Q-signals, and etc. doesn't help anyone and just creates confusion, nothing more.

If the codes for a particular radio service can't be understood, just use plain and proper English. That solution is really that simple, and I don't believe ANYONE should be criticized for trying to get the message through clearly and concisely. This is especially important when one is involved in emergency communications.

What else need be said?

Warren Rowe / KM5EW
Temple, Texas



 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB5HZE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Like most hams, I don't use 10-codes because I neither want to or need to. Most hams in the USA speak English, so plain language suffices when we speak to each other. Most foreign hams speak some English as well- now, it takes just as many syllables to say "location" as "ten-twenty" and plain language won't confuse the fellow on the other end (10-codes are NOT used worldwide, duh). For CW, use of Q-codes is internationally accepted and is also more efficient (in terms of characters) than the use of 10-codes.

That's the reason, plain and simple. 10-codes are basically useless for the average ham.

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
First, I would like to thank everyone for their candid responses. I was expecting much more of a negative response. I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that I was not 'attacked' for my question. I did notice that a few of you went at each other though. (Why can't we just get along?)

Perhaps I should clarify my position. I got into radio in the golden years of CB. My parents were licensed CBers in the mid '60s as well as some of our friends and relatives. I thought it was cool. I played with CBs on and off until the late 70's when it turned to garbage. Wondering if it had changed, I tried it again in the early 90's. It was horrible. To top things off, I tried using CB to call in an automobile accident and the only response I got was jeering and cat calls.

I got my ticket in 1994 with the intention of learning about and participating in Civil Defense. Our county's Emergency Manager told me via telephone that the fastest way to get involved with Civil Defense was to get a ham license and call him back. I did. I am now the Event Coordinator for the Muskegon County Amateur Radio Emergency Service (MCARES). MCARES is one of the most active ARES/RACES groups in Michigan. As Event Coordinator it is my job to organize the public service events that we do. As such that it is emergency training, I seek out events that require large volumes of radio traffic in difficult environments. Our events often cover multiple counties. We work the largest air show in Michigan, the Muskegon Air Fair, which provides a great deal of noise and a nearly overwhelming amount of traffic of all sorts. My question about 10 codes was to explore their use toward the facilitation of aural brevity. We work side by side with the police and fire services during ARES training and events. They comprise some of our finest operators.

I will attempt to address some of the issues brought up in your responses.

"I know that for most of my tenure as a ham I would groan every time I heard '10-4' on our local repeater."

It would have been nice if you had told us why you felt that way then. Please do."

I saw that I was not the only one that wanted to distance myself from being considered a modern day CBer. The hams in my area made it clear to me that using 10 codes were considered poor operating practice, like the CBers operate. I had no problem with that for many years. It is only as of late that I have been more introspective.

""Or is it that we don't want to sound like wannabes? (If it is the latter, then why do so many of us have flashing lights on our vehicles?)"

I've never seen flashing lights on a ham's vehicle. Perhaps this is a problem in your area."

Well, for ARES/RACES members it started to be. Unless needed for other professions, we require the removal of such lights from vehicles. It is a huge problem elsewhere. If anyone has visited the Hamsexy web site they can see what I am talking about (Note: Hamsexy is not for the average viewer)

""My take is that in emergency communications or emergency training, the proper use of APCO 10 codes would be of the same benefit to us as they are to public service operators. I think it is a shame that some type of an ego problem is preventing us from using a more efficient form of communication."

What are you implying? What "ego problem" ? "

My feeling is that if not using 10 codes where they will be of use is due to the CBer issue, that is indeed and ego problem. It was for me, anyway.

""BTW, I am talking about PROPER use of 10 codes."

Proper use of them, for example, would be for police and fire department use. Ham radio is not the proper use of them."

I disagree. The proper use of 10 codes is to clarify meaning and shorten air time where it is needed. I do agree that normal use does not require them, but there may be a need in high volume emergency radio communications, which does occur on ham radio.

"I am not suggesting codes of any kind for any reason other than to free up air-time in emergency or training communications. "

While your intent is noble, your theory won't work. As you've illustrated the difference between improper and proper use of '10' codes above, it would never come to pass. It would just create more confusion between those doing it properly and those doing it improperly."

You may be right. I can see how much training it takes to get people just to operate a controlled net properly with years of training and practice. How absurd to think those feeble folks could learn anything as complicated as 10 codes. If they are going to put that much time in the hobby, they should be learning CW, my mistake. Yes, a bit sarcastic, but I do see your point, do you see mine?

"It becomes a matter or real world efficiency - you really wouldn't see that much difference in saved time by using a '10' code vs. the plain language with which we are all already familiar."

Well, I don't see it, I hear it. It works well on the public safety bands. Admittedly, there are differences between amateur radio emergency comms and public safety comms, but I also see they are used in DPW bands, etc. If they didn't work, they would not be used.

"Ther is a good reason for the Q codes that hams use."

I hear Q codes being used on CB all the time. Our worst operators are ex CBers and they use Q codes on 2 meter voice all the time. I learned QSL in the mid 60's from my CBer parents and their QSL cards. I learned QTH from CB long before I was a ham. Personally, I feel the use of Q codes on ham phone is poor operating practice and I don't use them.

"Ever thought of trying plain English instead? It's a wonderful language with a huge vocabulary and deserves to be used more often."

Yes, this is our current practice. As such, I think it needs some improvement to operate in rough conditions.

"Its the fault of the Old Farts that sit there brooding like Old worn out Rooster and just monitor the bands to see if anyone of the young leper Hams dares to say 10 - 4"

I don't see it that way. Responses, both for and against, have come from all walks of life. I am an avid appliance operator. It suits me fine. I like all the new stuff, EchoLink, EchoStation, FRS, Wi-Fi, etc. but I personally hold the "Old Farts" in high regard. I thank them for keeping a part of ham radio alive that I do not have time for. I love to see the old equipment and hear the old stories. Ham radio has a rich tradition and it should have a large group protecting it. With over a half a million operators there is room for a plethora of interests and viewpoints. I just would like to see a bit more understanding among the different ranks, though.

""How can the same group that is so concerned about their image that they won't use 10 codes on the air have members that show up to public service events un-bathed and in dirty, worn out clothes? "

- is this a stereotype, factual observation, or definitive probability? somehow i find this offensive (but don't take offense, mind you)... but take a trip to the local Wally World and you'll see the same thing..."

Factual observation. Let's reserve it for another topic.

"As a professional firefighter we're being retrained to use plain english on transmissions. The purpose of this is the events of 911 when multiple agencies had different difinitions for some of the codes leading to confusion."

I find this interesting. We were taught that everyone in the Michigan 911 system used APCO 10 codes. I know there are others. While the standard works for our state, I can see some confusion in a multi-state operation. Until these posts, I was not aware of any public safety department removing 10 codes from their communication protocol.

"The Q code became the Amateur radio standard because they were already in use well before the advent of CB. The CB folks use the 10 code because of the police and TV shows and Movies such as Highway patrol (who always started the show with 10-4 and of course the Smoky and the Bandit."

Not in my case. I used both 10 codes and Q codes as a CBer decades before I got my ticket and did so because it was status quo on the band. On the rare occasion that I use CB today, I use only plain english and my first name. If asked for a 'handle', I provide them with one, as I feel it to be more polite than to assert that I am too good to use one.

If anyone thinks that there is no use for CB in a hams world, they are wrong. Just monitoring Ch 19 on the freeways can provide valuable information. Being able to communicate with the truck drivers can also provide good information, as well as good conversation. I have met many truck driving hams on CB that for whatever reason could not have a 2 meter rig in their truck and had great converstions (or should I say Q-soz) with them. Unfortunatly, this is about the only positive thing I can say about CB, other than it is entertaining to those that use it and as such proves that it is worth of existance.

"10-4, i'll be 10-10 after i 10-100 and 10-200, we're 10-7,for now 10-4?"

Your response, albeit sarcastic, illustrates on of my points. "I understand, I will be back in service after I relieve myself (it may be a while, if you know what I mean). For the time being, however, I will be out of service, do you understand?" Takes up much more air time than your single line of 10 codes. And, I have never met you, I don't know where you are from, and I understood a one line sentence that took the place of nearly a paragraph. Thank you very much, sir, for your very accurate illustration.

"Cut the codes, just chat away........I'm in so and so, and see ya later, I'm outta here. Out. Simple. I can't stand all of it. Why not talk normally ?"

This works great for chatting. I am refering to the transmission of much needed information in less than perfect conditions. I do agree that in simple chatter, plain English should be used. No slang, either, just perfect English using perfect grammar. Phrases like "Where are you at?" disgust me. And the use of 'ain't' on 2 meter voice about sickens me. Oh, sorry, you said 'normally', not 'correctly'.

"****Is this another code-no code argument?****"

I guess it is, isn't it!!

"Second, the ten codes do NOT predate Q codes or plain English for communicating. Nor, are they clearer or more effective."

I don't see the relevance of which code predates which. I disagree that they are not clearer. "10-9" is easy to hear and takes up less air time than "I didn't understand 60 percent of what you said, can you please repeat it?" I have found that one of the most difficult things for hams to do is not talk. They can take a two word answer and drag it out for paragraphs. For my considerations, 10 codes are more effective without question. It is getting operators to use them that spawns all the conjecture.

"10 codes are CB codes.
Q codes are ham codes."

I disagree. The 10 codes I am speaking of are those of the standard used by APCO for public safety communications. Q codes used on phone is what the CBers do. But hey, isn't imitation the sincerest form of admiration?

"If you started using 10's on the air you would not get anywhere when talking to anyone outside the U.S. of A."

My proposed use would not include such communications. We would be using them for emergency comms and training on VHF and UHF. I made no suggestion for using them on HF.

"If I have to fight beside one of those Old do not see, hear or change
anything Birds, in the next War, I shoot them myself !"

Sorry to hear that you feel that way toward any fellow ham. I also noticed that you capitalized the word war. Don't you think your response was a bit on the hostile side? Hey, I don't agree with the old extras on many points, but if I was in a position to, and had the capability of protecting them, I sure would. To read that there are hams out there that would not disturbs me a bit.

Thanks, everyone, for posting. Your answers have provided me with great insight and new knowledge pertaining to my subject. I still feel that they could be used to our advantage in some cases. Although there are technical issues, I still feel that most of the reasons for not using 10 codes in emergency comms are a matter of personality traits more than technical issues.

73 to all,

Mark KB8UFF


































 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"The only difference between the two bands is that the equipment cost a bunch more and we now have more bands to use. "

The major difference is that 95% of CBers are operating illegally, and the reverse is true of hams.

"I am no better a person now as a ham than I was as a cb'er. "

So you are saying you didn't learn a thing in your journey from Novice to Extra?

In contrast, I will say I learned a heckuvva lot!! And I am still learning, every day.

On the subject, I do not use 10-codes because that is not Amateur. Q-codes are ham and are understood internationally. 10-codes are not. It's that simple. And I call CQ on all bands, since we are the only service in which that is permitted.

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB5HZE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Mark, I disagree- I think it is more a matter of whether 10-codes are useful than "personality", although that certainly applies for many folks who dislike the association with CB jargon. But if 10-codes could truly perform a useful role for us, then I believe that the amateur community would have adopted them many years ago when they were first introduced (before the CB craze).

I cannot think of a single example where a 10-code would provide more clarity & detail than plain English. Further, in emergency communications simplicity is best- if I were, for example, to report an automobile / pedestrian accident then I would just say it plainly- and neither I nor the fellow on the other end would have a need to look up the correct 10-code from a list.

From my perspective, 10-codes simply seem useless with respect to amateur communications. Help me out here- provide me with an example where a 10-code provides an improvement over plain English so that I can understand your point.

Thanks . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W2DUG on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Are there other sets of codes, too? Like 20-codes or 30-codes? How did "10" end up being the prefix for these codes?
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KD5RGJ on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
ONCE A YEAR I GIVE MY HAM FRIEND A CALL AND ASK WHAT THE DAY/DATE IS -10-4...OCTOBER 4TH...GET HIM EVERYTIME
I STILL SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH SUBSTITUTING ROGER WITH 10-4
 
Hmmmmm.....  
by KA4KOE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Reminds me of the movie "Airplane"....

"Roger, Roger. How about a vector, Victor?"
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K8SWL on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I've always thought plain english worked well. I don't use 10codes or other abbreviations on the telephone or across the dinner table, why should I use them on a radio.
 
RE: What is the 10-code for Troll ??  
by KC0KCQ on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah reply in PLAIN ENGLISH, you CB jerkweeds!

And since that's all I have to say, I'll be QSB and QSY and QST and ... ah hell.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by WIRELESS on October 24, 2004

"
Hams are still on a " I am superior because I have a ham license " trip. "

You're mixed up. Let me explain how it is: Just having the license doesn't make one superior. Having the license makes one a licensed ham. One of the things - it used to be, and should still be - that is expected by the ham's peers, is superior behaviour. Most hams are willing to help those new hams that don't know how to behave, to learn how to do so.
The problem now days is that there is a faction that doesn't even WANT to learn.


"It is probably never going to change."

And well it shouldn't.


"Most hams are petty, insecure, crude people"

That's name calling, isn't it?



"and the childish name calling by the eHam regulars"

So even you think of yourself as childish?


"will continue as always"

Not necessarily. You can change and better yourself, if you want to.


"when anything they do is challenged, like 10 codes."

10 codes are fine, if police and fire departments want to use them. From this thread, it appears they are moving away from them. Far be it for us to tell the police and fire departments what to do. Just as their methods don't necessarily work for us, nor should they be used on the ham bands. We can surely look to our experience to figure out what works best for ourselves.


"Some things never change."

That we have plenty of experienced hams around, from which to learn the right way of doing things? Yes, you are correct.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Are there other sets of codes, too? Like 20-codes or 30-codes? How did "10" end up being the prefix for these codes?"

The prefix, the 10 part of the 10 code, is the signifier, or the part that gets a person's attention and alerts them that there is a number code to follow. It works similar to the Q part of the Q codes. I don't know of any 20 or 30 codes, but there is a spoof on 10 codes called 11 codes. I can't remember any off hand, but I do remember they were pretty funny.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KK7AC on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
K8SWL hit it right on the head. Do you say QTH or 10-4 while speaking to someone else in a normal conversation either on the phone or in person? Well of course not. Use plain English for everything; including HF when using voice. Q codes are "shorthand" for CW anyway, and most all fire departments are going away from 10 codes do to "interoperability" with other departments/districts. Most police deparments are loseing up on them as well since most are trunking or using MDT's to relay communications. Codes no longer have to "encrypt" thier meaning to the public while on a radio system. I work for the fire department, and no department in this area ever used them. Just say "my location is" ...thats pretty easy.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Can any one tell me where all the extra white space came from in my second, lengthy post?

Could it be Internet hang time?

73 de KB8UFF
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KE4ZHN on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I guess april first came early again. Seems to happen often around here. Just what we need on amateur radio...CB jargon. Oh wait, listen to two meters its already there! If you miss the 10-4 crap so much go back to chicken band and say it all you want, leave it off of HF. Most amateurs prefer to speak plain english as it should be.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Do you say QTH or 10-4 while speaking to someone else in a normal conversation either on the phone or in person? Well of course not."

Well, I don't, but I have heard hams that do use Q codes in vis a vis (face to face) conversations and have heard CBers use 10 codes in the same manner, along with Q codes. While I was never exceedingly surprised by this, I remain mildly amused. To suggest that this does not happen is a form of denial, in my humble opinion.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I guess april first came early again. Seems to happen often around here. Just what we need on amateur radio...CB jargon. Oh wait, listen to two meters its already there! If you miss the 10-4 crap so much go back to chicken band and say it all you want, leave it off of HF."

I am sorry for typing faster than you can apparently read. For the nth time, I never asked about brevity codes for HF use. I never asked if CB jargon could be useful. Furthermore, my distaste for CBers goes beyond their chosen lexicon, it is their attitudes that preclude me from associating with them.

After reading your post, sir, I am not so sure I have been completely successful in my desire to avoid sharing a hobby with such...

I can think of many words to end that with but I will simply stop here.

73 OM de KB8UFF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004

"
"I guess april first came early again. Seems to happen often around here. Just what we need on amateur radio...CB jargon. Oh wait, listen to two meters its already there! If you miss the 10-4 crap so much go back to chicken band and say it all you want, leave it off of HF."

I am sorry for typing faster than you can apparently read. For the nth time, I never asked about brevity codes for HF use. I never asked if CB jargon could be useful."

Reading both the post to which you replied, and your reply, it seems that you read his statement as if it was addressed specifically to you.
Perhaps it was.
Perhaps though, it was not. Maybe it was meant for someone else that posted here, or maybe the poster meant it for no one in particular, just anyone reading that met his 'if' statement.

"
Furthermore, my distaste for CBers goes beyond their chosen lexicon, it is their attitudes that preclude me from associating with them.

After reading your post, sir, I am not so sure I have been completely successful in my desire to avoid sharing a hobby with such... "

Please reconsider the possibilities as you interpret his post. It is very easy for the real meaning to go astray here using the internet. Often what was meant as it was typed, is not what is understood when it is read.

"
I can think of many words to end that with but I will simply stop here. "


73
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Willy,

Your words are that of wisdom and will be regarded as such. If my interpretation was inaccurate, my apologies to all, particularly the poster.

The delivery was such that I felt the need to respond in kind. In retrospect the possibility exists that it should have been instead kindly. But I also feel that the post I responded to should have been more kindly as well. Since my posts referred to the fact that I started my two way radio exposure with CB, I felt that statement "If you miss the 10-4 crap so much go back to chicken band and say it all you want," was aimed at me, thus my response.

Thank you for suggesting that a different perspective of the post may be in order.

Cheers,

Mark
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB5HZE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well, I'm still waiting for an example where a 10-code provides an improvement over plain English- I suppose that is because THERE ARE NONE . . .

Q-codes (Q-signals), on the other hand, play a functional, ongoing role in CW operations and also assist to cross language barriers.

10-codes are useless. They are a holdover from the past when APCO was attempting to achieve a degree of privacy upon open public safety freqs- an effort which failed as soon as the 10-codes were published. If they had any true worth, they would have been adopted by hams long, long ago.

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
THE 10 CODES  
by KB7LYM on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
As a token of goodwill here it is Folks !!!

Ten-codes, or 10-codes, are used in two-way voice radio

For other uses see: radio (disambiguation)
Radio is a technology that allows the transmission of signals by modulation of electromagnetic waves with frequencies below those of light.


Radio wavesRadio waves are a form of electromagnetic radiation, and are created whenever a charged object accelerates with a frequency that lies in the radio frequency (RF) portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is the range from a few tens of hertz to a few gigahertz. Electromagnetic radiation travels (propagates) by means of oscillating electric and magnetic fields that pass through the air and the vacuum of space equally well, and does not require a medium of transport.
..... Click the link for more information. communication as numeric codewords

For other senses of the word "code", see code (disambiguation).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In communications, a code is a rule for converting a piece of information (for example, a letter, word, or phrase) into another form or representation, not necessarily of the same sort. In communications and information processing, encoding is the process by which a source (object) performs this conversion of information into data, which is then sent to a receiver (observer), such as a data processing system. Decoding is the reverse process of converting data, which has been sent by a source, into information understandable by a receiver.
..... Click the link for more information. for frequently used messages. They originated in the United States

United States of America
(U.S. Flag) (U.S. Great Seal)
National Mottos
(1776 - ): E Pluribus Unum
(Latin: "Out of many, one")
(1956 - ): In God We Trust
Official language None at Federal Level,
Some States Specify
English; de facto, Spanish spoken by growing minority, especially in the West
..... Click the link for more information. law enforcement community before World War II World War II was the most extensive and costly armed conflict in the history of the world, involving the great majority of the world's nations, being fought simultaneously in several major theatres, and costing approximately 55.5 million lives. The war was fought between two groups of powers: the alliance of the British Commonwealth, United States, Soviet Union, China, and the governments-in-exile of France, Poland, and other occupied European countries—collectively known as the Allies; and the alliance of Germany, Italy, and Japan and their allies —collectively known as the Axis.
..... Click the link for more information. . There is no universal, official set of 10-codes, and the meanings of a particular 10-code can vary between one jurisdiction and another: a code meaning "I have the suspect in custody" in one state can mean "Send an ambulance" in a second state and have yet another meaning in a third.

Ten-codes were adopted with enthusiasm by the Citizen's Band Citizens' band radio (CB) is a system of short distance radio communication between individuals on a selection of 40 channels within the single 27 MHz (11 meter) band. 27MHz FCC Bandplan

Formed following a decision in 1945 by the US government that its citizens should have this right, the CB radio service should not be confused with GMRS or Amateur Radio. CB does not require a license and unlike Amateur Radio CB may be used for commercial communication. The 11-meter band was taken from the Amateur Radio service for the Citizen's Band. But it was not until the 1970s, when technology had advanced to reduce costs, that the CB market prospered, US truckers being at the head of the boom. Many CB clubs were formed and a special CB language evolved.
..... Click the link for more information. craze, first in the US, then shortly afterwards in the UK The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a state in western Europe, usually known simply as the United Kingdom, the UK or less accurately as Great Britain or Britain. The UK was formed by a series of Acts of Union which united the formerly distinct nations of England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland under a single government in London. The greater part of Ireland left the United Kingdom in 1922 and is today the Republic of Ireland, whilst the north-eastern portion of the island, Northern Ireland, remains part of the United Kingdom.
..... Click the link for more information. and elsewhere. The codes were extended and changed to reflect the sorts of things that CBers wanted to refer to, rather than law enforcement usage, etc. During the height of the fad in the UK (around 1980 1980 is a leap year starting on Tuesday.

Years:
1977 1978 1979 - 1980 - 1981 1982 1983
Decades:
1950s 1960s 1970s - 1980s - 1990s 2000s 2010s
Centuries:
19th century - 20th century - 21st century


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1980 in aviation
1980 in film
1980 in literature
1980 in music
1980 in sports
1980 in television
..... Click the link for more information. ), new ten codes were seemingly made up on the spot, used in the local area for a short time, then disappeared again.
The following is a sample of commonly used 10-codes, submitted for purposes of illustration. It is common for a 10-code to have numeric gaps.

10-1 Poor reception
10-2 Good reception
10-3 Stop transmitting
10-4 Message received, affirmative, ok
10-5 Relay this information to ___.
10-6 Busy
10-7 Out of service
10-8 In service
10-9 Please repeat your message
10-10 Negative
10-12 Standby
10-13 Civilians present and listening
10-15 Enroute to station with suspect
10-18 Urgent
10-19 Return to station
10-20 Specify location/My location is ___.
10-21 Place a phone call to ___.
10-22 Disregard
10-23 Stand by on this frequency
10-33 Emergency traffic follows. Hold routine messages.
10-34 Frequency open (cancels 10-33)
10-36 What is the correct time of day?
10-39 False alarm, premises was occupied
10-40 False alarm, no activity, premises appears secure
10-41 Begin watch
10-42 End watch
10-45 Fueling vehicle
10-49 Enroute to assignment
10-60 Specify time complainant called
10-97 Arrival at assignment location
10-98 Departing assignment location
preview not available. Click the link for more information.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by NN6EE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Not many of the the Q-codes are used anyway!!!

6 mainly:

QTH=location
QRZ=who's calling me?
QRL=is this freq. busy?
QSL=confirmation
QRS=slow down DUMMY!!!
QRP=low power

Sure! If you handle traffic on HF then that's a whole other "Ballywick" isn't it!!! :-)))

Jim/ee
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N7UQA on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
CB lingo and 10 codes just simply don't belong on the ham bands period. Even CBers don't use them much anymore. Using CB lingo and 10 codes are the language of the CB service not the amateur service. I am the control operator of our local repeater and will politely chew someone out if they use this stuff on the machine. Using Q codes on the phone bands is bad enough.




Craig - N7UQA
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB9YZL on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Jeez…..Scanning down this thread provokes a feeling of awe and wonder……

JUST LOOK AT ALL THE KEYSTROKES DEVOTED TO A NON-ISSUE!

Well, ……since so many of you found this subject so interesting, I’ll suggest the next real “Barn-Burner”……

”What’s really the best?......Corn or Flour tortillas?”

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”


 
RE: Hmmmmm.....  
by N6XA on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Shirley, you can't be serious.
I am serious, and stop calling me Sirley
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes and Q codes  
by K1CJS on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Using Q codes on the phone bands is bad enough."

In a way, its worse--we're supposed to know better, being hams.
Well, aren't we, Shirley? ;-)
 
RE: Hmmmmm.....  
by GHOSTRIDERHF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KB9YZL

You are entirely right -- i bet if you asked corn or flour you would get volumes of answers...

i bet 90% of these guys that write these 2000 page answers (which by the way no one reads) dont even have a radio and thats why they live on this page....

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB5HZE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Whew! Thanks for the list, I guess. It sorta proves the point regarding the benefit of plain language over 10-codes. But it also brings back a memory.

When I was nine years old in the mid-60's, using Dad's (licensed) CB, I dutifully memorized all of those codes (published by the manufacturer) and tried to use them faithfully. I thought this was what I was supposed to do as a part of operating a licensed CB station, and I also thought it was "cool" (hey, remember I was age nine & easily impressed).

The problem was that except for 10-4 & 10-20, most of the other (licensed & lawful) CBers of the time didn't have a clue what the 10-codes meant, nor did they care. They preferred plain English, of course- they were mostly rational adults. Few people today associate CB with good, purposeful station operation: but during the early days of CB, that was more often the case than not.

Fortunately, I discovered ham radio a couple of years later . . . and thereafter CB began its descent into the chaos we all recognize today. Thank goodness for the ham on the other side of town- had he declined to administer the Novice exam, I could have been a "Good Buddy" (shudder).

Just a little stroll down memory lane . . .

Ron WB5HZE
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB5HZE on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Yeah, well, I was bored, & didn't see any interesting DX on the bands (although there was a GREAT 10M / 12M opening to EU this morning, very nice).

And flour tortillas are better, IMHO.

73 . . . Ron WB5HZE
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W5UX on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I learned the ten codes of the U. S. Border Patrol and the New Mexico State Police and the Georgia State Patrol. All different. This sometimes led to confusion. In every outfit, we have a few new people. In my opinion, we are better off without them. They don't save that much time. The use of "Q" signals on voice is ridiculous.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I cannot think of a single example where a 10-code
> would provide more clarity & detail than plain
> English.

When codes are used, clarity & detail are not the goal, although often clarity is a side effect.

Codes (Q or 10-) are used to abbreviate common, routine communication, and as a side effect, to standardize terms for the most common traffic.

If you ever have the opportunity, spend some time inside the dispatch center for a moderately busy or larger police agency.

You will find that the use of codes isn't limited to 10- codes, but extends to using section numbers from the penal code, and a host of abbreviations.

This serves the same purpose that the 'standard exchange' serves in contesting: it improves efficiency of operation.

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I still feel that most of the reasons for not using
> 10 codes in emergency comms are a matter of
> personality traits more than technical issues.

The technical reason, such as it is, for not using 10-codes is that in practice, in much of the country, agencies don't all use the same number for the same meaning.

The solution, being adopted first by fire departments and EMTs, is 'plain language' in which common English words are used rather than codes. An advantage of this is that even if two agencies adopt slightly different jargon, the odds of figuring out what the other means are significantly better if both use 'plain English.'

The disadvantage, and the reason why police agencies are slower to adopt plain English, is that there is a loss of efficiency on routine traffic. This matters more to police than fire or EMT, because police typically have a lot more routine traffic.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> The major difference is that 95% of CBers are
> operating illegally, and the reverse is true of
> hams.

There was probably a time, in the late 70s, when this was true. It doesn't seem to have been true for a lot of years now.

These days, the percentage of illegal CBers and the percentage of illegal hams seems to be about the same.

The CBers appear worse because the 'bad boys' are concentrated into a much smaller segment of spectrum.

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
”What’s really the best?......Corn or Flour tortillas?”

Depends on what you're having them with...
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N6KP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
At the American National Red Cross we discourage the use of 10 codes and "Q" codes. Since our communications is nationwide we found that using 10 codes from different cities meant different things. When we recruit a person from Kansas to go to Flordia either as a ham or Red Cross volunteer we do not permit the use of either 10 codes or "Q" codes on our Red Cross frequencies. I am sure many of our volunteers are CB'ers as well but we have found the use of plain language goes a long way in being understood by everyone.

If the local amateurs are supporting our shelters and want to use codes that are used locally then certainly they can do as they wish as I am sure everyone on their nets understand what is being said.

Ted Harris, N6IIU
Training Manager, Mobile Communications and Automated Systems. National Headquarters.

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by GILLIAM_LINEBERRY_EX_N4VOX on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Before 10 codes, police used Q signals. In fact in Miami they still do. Why police changed from QSL to 10-4 I don't know, just became a fad. QTH beccame 19020, certainly no shorter. There are long established Q signals and could be used without all the old timers coming unglued. Or just use plain talk and not have any argument.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K2JX on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Huh, 10 codes ? Am I missing the point here ?

de K2JX
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC0KBH on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that most CB'ers aren't that smart, either. Really, how many cb'ers build antennas and rigs?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W8JI on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The point is someone wrote an article saying we should start using ten codes, because of the following:

Hearing someone say "ten four" is much shorter and clearer than hearing them say "roger". Same for "what's your ten twenty". It's much shorter and cleared than saying "what's your location"

Just try saying the words and see for yourself.

ten-four = roger
ten twenty = location
ten eight = ready

see....much shorter and less easy to confuse. (NOT)

The other major point was we need to be able to speak to first responders who all use unique ten-codes. So instead of using variabilities of words in English we can learn all the variabilities in ten codes.

As an example "location" might mean something to eat in California for the Orange county sheriff, while it might mean something to wear in in the Lamar county fire department.

They big thing we have to work on is getting the policy reversed that first responders should stop using ten codes. Here in GA, like in all other places, they are supposed to be stopping ten codes because they confuse the police and fire departments when groups work together since 10-codes are not standard.

We need to convince the government agencies that words like "house" "car" and "help" have multiple meanings, not ten codes!

73 Tom

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K0RGR on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Oh man! There are topics that come up from time to time that make me look just like that painting "The Scream".

"I need to take a 10-100 at this QTH - is that a Roger Radio???" There is nothing wrong, malicious, indecent, inherently stupid, malevolent, partisan, sacreligious, or fattening about the use of either 10 codes or Q signals on voice. There is also absolutely no reason whatsoever to use them on local FM voice if all parties speak the same language!!!!

Want to give somebody BRAIN DAMAGE???

Check into your local ARES phone net on 2 meters. When it is your turn to check in, instead of saying that you are checking in with no traffic, use the Q signals like you would a CW net - "This is K0RGR , QNI, QRU". Good luck! The last time I did that was many years ago, and they still haven't forgotten in some parts of California. The resulting hysteria was a 6 on the Richter scale.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W4DON on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Amateur radio operators were on the air before the FCC existed and before police and fire had radio communications. Those pioneers came up with the Q-signals which we newcomers had to learn and use, just like morse. The Q-signals were really for use on morse code operation for SHORTHAND.

Radio amateurs on AM, FM, RTTY, PSK-31, etc just carried these over from their CW operation, but is really not needed in those modes. Example: Rather that saying my "QTH is New York City, they can just say "I'm located in New York City".

When law enforement began using radio communications they devised their 10-codes. Notice I said codes. I'm sure it was for some security reasons but probably mostly for SHORTHAND.

In 1958 when the FCC farmed the 11-meter amatuer radio band to the CB'ers. The CB'ers began using 10-codes for SHORTHAND also. As the illegal CB idiots began operating outside their assigned channels began using Ham lingo also such as QTH, QSL, etc.

Let the 10-codes be used by the Law, Fire, etc.

The Q-signals are for CW use, military and amateur.

For amateur SSB & FM communications just use plain english. No SHORTHAND is needed. Keep your 10-codes where they belong, not on SSB & FM radio amateur operation.

Don
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W5AOX on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I too am surprised at the huge number of posts on this non-controversy. I still hear 10-codes used on 2 meters occasionally in different areas of the country when traveling.
What I haven't seen already posted is the fact that in the EARLY days of 2 meter FM most of the operators were commercial 2-way techs with ham licenses, who were used to talking to public safety agencies in 10-speak. The majority of early 2 meter repeaters were converted commercial gear, maintained and populated by commercial 2-way guys. In the early 1970's there were minor skirmishes in the ham mags about trying to get changed over to "ham-speak" on FM.
What is even MORE interesting is when you hear police on the "live" cop TV shows, especially Animal Cops Miami, use Q codes. I was wondering if perhaps the cops thought fewer people might recognize Q codes, but now the previous poster mentions Q codes have long been in common use in Florida. Go figure.
As seldom as we hear anyone even ON the frequencies any more, why worry whether they are using 10-codes, Q-codes, or whatever? I'm glad to hear someone break the squelch -- or come up on frequency on HF SSB -- and try to respond to them to make sure they realize someone was actually listening! The last few long trips I've made cross country have convinced me there are more unused repeaters than active hams any more.
This reminds me of the old-timer Gail, W5ZLF, who was an elderly former 2-meter AM operator. Any time he got mobile, he would key his mike and call "CQ, CQ, CQ...." over and over for several minutes. Most people were used to him and tolerant, but occasionally someone would razz him about calling CQ on a repeater.
Gail would respond with a chuckle in his voice: "Well, at least I got you to answer me, didn't I ??"
I have listened to bootlegger HF-er's calling "CQ and QRT for a call", which in fact is no more silly than most hams' use of Q signals on voice. I'm one who is happy for all the CB'ers and wannabees who are now hams. Without them, there'd be no one left on the ham bands at all.
If you answer my call when I travel through your town, I don't care if you use goofy OR normal talk of any sort as long as you're kind enough to answer me and help me pass the time through your area.
Jim W5AOX
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W8JI:

"The point is someone wrote an article saying we should start using ten codes, because of the following:"

Where in my post did I ever say we SHOULD start using 10 codes? I asked why we did not. I pointed out some positive aspects of using 10 codes. There are both positive and negative aspects. I mentioned that I felt that there were more positive aspects than negative. I can see where that may be interpreted as we should TRY using the APCO codes, but I never meant that we just arbitrarily SHOULD do so. Additionally, the amount of syllables used may be similar in some refined instances, indeed, but the brevity issue also includes issues such as transmission times, repeat requests, understanding of meaning through clutter, with weak signal as well as intitial understanding. That is why Q codes work so well. Unfortunatly, Q codes do not cover the needed messages as well as 10 codes do for emergency communications. To address the standarization issue, a specific group of 10 codes, the APCO group, was submitted for consideration. 10 codes do contribute to aural brevity and that is taught starting with APCO Basic Telecommunicator training, the starting point for most Central Dispatch operators here in Michigan. I was taught that by Nate McClure, N8ONQ, the Director of Muskegon's Central Dispatch when I took my APCO Basic Telecommunicator course. Again, the issue for me is not whether or not 10 codes contribute to aural brevity or not, my training indicates that they do. It is simply your opinion that they do not.

The group has been very forthright in illustrating various views here. Some are to be taken as good information. Some will be considered mere opinion. All will be useful.

Thanks and 73,

Mark KB8UFF


 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W4DON on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Let me say something about two other things the CB'ers adopted from phone amateur radio operations.

They use the term "seventy thirds" or "seventy three's". Also they use "eighty eight's".

It's not 73rds or 73's either, it just plain 73 which is SHORTHAND in CW for "Best Regards". Same with 88's, it just plain 88 in CW for "Love and Kisses".

Once again these signals were for CW SHORTHAND use and should not be used by CB or amateur radio on phone operation.

Best regards,

Don

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Don,

I hope you noticed I always used 73 in it's proper, singular form! I also hope you noticed that I have been using that...code...in every post. And no one has complained!

Cheers and a big seven three,

Mark KB8UFF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"They use the term "seventy thirds" or "seventy three's". Also they use "eighty eight's".

Don,

I have not heard these terms on CB for a couple of years, but I hear them frequently on our local 2 meter repeaters.

N6AYJ - I thought I would get your $.02 out of this. I would like to hear it. (For those interested, drag is set at 2, and sinker depth is 2 ft from the bottom...)

And...

I was surprised to see so much response, thanks, and not get the "Why haven't you upgraded yet?" question.

A: I can't hear above 1000 hz and my dog ate my code tapes. (Not really, we don't have a dog)

Cheers,

Mark KB8UFF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC0KBH on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have an idea to get rid of the CB'ers in the 10m band: Drop as wide of a PSK carrier as you can on them. Go ahead, use the amp (if you have one, unlike me). Or, to make it a little more legal, tune up in CW right on top of them. They operate in the 10m CW portion anyway.

I still don't see why they have to use an amateur radio band for their thrills. Just get a ham license and grow up.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC0KBH on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have an idea to get rid of the CB'ers in the 10m band: Drop as wide of a PSK carrier as you can on them. Go ahead, use the amp (if you have one, unlike me). Or, to make it a little more legal, tune up in CW right on top of them. They operate in the 10m CW portion anyway.

I still don't see why they have to use an amateur radio band for their thrills. Just get a ham license and grow up.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K0RFD on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I guess whether you think the 10 codes came from CB depends on how old you are.

I always thought they came from Broderick Crawford and "Highway Patrol". I think that pretty much predates CB.

I don't use 10-4 on actual ham radio because I did ONCE. Once and only once.

Whatever male glands I had at the time were cut off surgically by whoever was listening.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB9YZL on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC0KBH, you said: “It seems to me that most CB'ers aren't that smart, either. Really, how many cb'ers build antennas and rigs? “

You should spend some time looking at some of the CB Internet sites………..I think you’d be surprised! (I know I was!)

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KA4EIR on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10 codes may have their place on the 11 meter band, but in amateur radio I feel they are useless mainly due to the fact, except for the old reliable 10-4's, 10-20's, and such, depending on what area you may be in, some of the 10 codes are different. In short range communications like the CB bands are "supposed" to be the 10 codes are ok. But in amateur radio, where your transmissions legally are heard all over the world, the different 10 codes can be very confusing. Q signals are much better.

Speaking not only as a ham, but also as a public safety professional with experience in law enforcement and the fire service, many agencies are doing away with 10 codes, and are going back to the good ole plain language, short and to the point.

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Amateur radio operators were on the air before the
> FCC existed and before police and fire had radio
> communications. Those pioneers came up with the Q-
> signals which we newcomers had to learn and use,
> just like morse.

Q-signs were developed in the early 1910s by marine operators, and were an attempt to simplify the extensive commercial telegraphy codes which came about as a way to reduce the cost of telegrams by using shorthand.

They were later adopted in the ARS for the same reason.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"There was probably a time, in the late 70s, when this was true. It doesn't seem to have been true for a lot of years now.

These days, the percentage of illegal CBers and the percentage of illegal hams seems to be about the same.

The CBers appear worse because the 'bad boys' are concentrated into a much smaller segment of spectrum."

Oh, really? When was the last time you heard a business or family contacting each other on CB?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Oh, really? When was the last time you heard a
> business or family contacting each other on CB?

This afternoon. The local quarry uses CB to direct truck traffic.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KY1V on October 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K1ZF wrote:

"Isn’t it interesting that most of the replies defending use of the ten code come from people who are ashamed to post their calls… or do they even have calls?

Interesting…"


Did you also notice in a previous topic called "Should we be deputized", a significant percentage of the people in favor of cursing on the air are W4's?

Interesting...

;)

David ~ KY1V

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by PH1PH on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hi all,

Silly jargon is silly jargon, whoever uses it.

My pet gripe is the types who use the personal pronoun WE instead of I (and OUR instead of MY).

For example: "WE are running a IcoYaeKenTen GTXLR1000" or "OUR QTH is near Didjabringabeeralong"

145, Pete PH1PH - G7ECN

Ham Radio Deluxe: FREEWARE CAT/logging/PSK31/Sat tracking &c &c software from http://hrd.ham-radio.ch Helping YOU keep your hard-earned money in YOUR pockets
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Isn’t it interesting that most of the replies
> defending use of the ten code come from people who
> are ashamed to post their calls… or do they even
> have calls?

It would be interesting, except that it's not true.

There are, according to a quick scan, two posters not using call signs who are posting suggesting that 10 codes are acceptable in some circumstances, and *four* posters using call signs, making similar remarks.

Nor do the 2 posters account for "most of the replies" suggesting 10 codes are acceptable.

I can not tell why the two posters don't use callsigns.

By the way, two of the posters, possibly three, opposing 10 codes are posting not using their call signs.

What, pray tell, should we take from that factoid?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Are there other sets of codes

Yes, although they don't start with numeric prefixes. The two most commonly used in the public service are simply saying "Code X", where X is a number; and giviing the section number of the penal code, rather than a verbal description of the offense. These are both often used by police.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I always thought they came from Broderick Crawford
> and "Highway Patrol". I think that pretty much
> predates CB.

Thanks for the reminder. Used to get a big kick out of that show.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Did you also notice in a previous topic
> called "Should we be deputized", a significant
> percentage of the people in favor of cursing on the
> air are W4's?

> Interesting...

I guess that would depend on what percentage range you though was 'significant', and whether or not you felt that there being a smaller percentage of W4s commenting in favor of cursing on the air, than there are W4s in general was interesting or not.

Well, actually, I've just scanned the thread again, and I can't find a single poster "in favor of cursing on the air." A few said they weren't bothered by it, and a couple pointed out the constitutional limit on the FCC's ability to regulate speech, but not a single poster suggested it was something they were in favor of.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by JDEVARIE on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Very nice article. This is one of those topics that since getting my ticket, I have been curious to understand. Reminds me of the behaviour of some hams when I came out on the repeater with my brand new systematic callsign. Completely ignorant behaviour (in that case) despite me using their own jargon since I had been listening to them for a while before coming out.
My opinion with this topic, if it bothers everyone so much, why not make the "correct" operating procedure official by releasing it in writing? We currently use an agreement that specifies how the bands are shared and for the most part it is followed nicely. If 10-? codes are not to be used on Ham Radio, put it in writing and add it to the Amateur Radio Handbook, in the mean time please, do not be rude on the air. Remember that the person on the other end is also licensed and has the same rights to use the frequencies within the limits of the law. Not all of us have been in the hobby for 50years +
Respecfully
Jim
KB1KZI
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by NJ0E on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
interesting article.

i confess i find hearing 10-codes used on vhf-fm
annoying, but i learned a long time ago that you'll
live longer and be happier if you just let it go.

make your own operation on the air in the way that
you feel it ought to be done. it may influence
others; or perhaps not. whatever.

my preference is to use plain english on voice, and
Q codes on cw.

i operate cw > 95% anyway; my 'phone operating
skills are kind of awkward from disuse.

73
scott nj0e
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC8VWM on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The use of 73, Q codes are other similarly shortened communication signals were originally intended for operating CW.

There really isn't any other place to use them more effectively. Even SSB phone can have problems using Q signals because unless you are using them in combination with phonetics, "QSL" can often sound like "QSO" etc.

I have to chuckle when I hear something like "What is your QTH?" on local FM repeaters. Or hear people that end every voice transmission with the phrase... QSL?

It doesn't bother me when someone does use them particulaly, I just prefer not to use them myself.

If it isn't CW, then it's going to be just plain English language for me.

I DO however use the term "73" when engaged in voice commuication however I never intend on using it to shorten communications, or to make voice communication more efficient in any way.

This phrase is more of a standardized "farewell parting tradition" amongst radio amateurs.


73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC8VWM on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>If 10-? codes are not to be used on Ham Radio, put it in writing and add it to the Amateur Radio Handbook<<

This fact may already be the case. The FCC does not "officially" recognize the use of any 10 code or other form of coded transmissions used for that matter.

"Q" signals are not considered "illegal" by the FCC however you might want to reconsider their use when communicating with other countries that might think otherwise:


A. Section 97.111(a) provides for two-way communications. In summary, amateur stations are authorized to exchange messages with:


Other stations in the amateur service, except those in any country whose administration has given notice that it objects to such communications. Moreover, transmissions to a different country, where permitted, >>>> must be made in plain language <<< and must be limited to messages of a technical nature relating to tests and to remarks of a personal character for which, by reason of their unimportance, recourse to the public telecommunications service is not justified. Section 97.117 provides for international communications.





 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Oh, really? When was the last time you heard a
> business or family contacting each other on CB?

This afternoon. The local quarry uses CB to direct truck traffic.

Good!! But you must admit it is a tiny fraction of the traffic on that band. I had a CB in my car before I retired - used it to talk to the truck drivers of my company (I was Safety Director). But it was difficult to get through the garbage most of the time. Took it out and installed a TS-50 when I retired. :o)
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KI6LO on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Previous posts.......

"K1ZF wrote:

"Isn’t it interesting that most of the replies defending use of the ten code come from people who are ashamed to post their calls… or do they even have calls?

Interesting…"

KY1V response:

Did you also notice in a previous topic called "Should we be deputized", a significant percentage of the people in favor of cursing on the air are W4's?

Interesting...

;)

David ~ KY1V
------------------------------------------------

David,

Not to belay the painful discussion on the article on 'Deputizing' but I read almost every reply there and I don't recall seeing anyone post that they APPROVED of cursing on the air but rather the main concensus was "If someone did not want to hear it, change the frequency or turn off the radio". Now this could be construed as 'tacit approval' if one were to really look hard but so could not posting anything at all. To make the assumption that others are in approval of cursing on the air simply if they choose not to take a hardliner stance similar to yours of public scolding or desire not to perform forceable assault (such as the posts on yanking towers down) is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Gene KI6LO


 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB2WIK on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm trying to figure out how a "10 code" (or a "Q" code for that matter) save any time when using voice transmission...

Is "10-4" faster than "roger?" Or better yet, "Yep!"

Is "10-20" faster than "location?"

Is it possible none of these codes save any time when operating voice and are really silly?

Do they "get through" (penetrate noise and interference) better? Try a real test, and you'll see they don't.

Then again, misuse of Q codes happens on CW all the time, too. I cringe when I hear someone send, "The QTH here is..." What kind of time-saving "code" is that? Why not just send "QTH" followed by location, without all the extra words? That's what Q codes were intended for, and it seems half the population uses them incorrectly.

<Sigh>

WB2WIK/6
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WA9SVD on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by W4WLZ on October 23, 2004 "...I believe, I am not sure there is a part of the FCC part 97 rules that forbids using a coded language or secret code in voice transmissions..."
=======================

While there ARE variations in 10-Code lists, (a good reason NOT to use them to avoid confusion!) they are by no means "secret," as they are widely published. The fact that everyone does not immediately know a code does not make it secret. In the same way, we can't "decipher" Packet or PSK31 by ear, but the methods of "decoding" them are freely available, so they do not constitute a "secret" code. (The same could apply to any foreign language; just because the listener doesn't understand the words spoken, doesn't make the words secret.)
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KC9GGV on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The APCO 10 codes do not belong in Amateur Radio. The Q codes date back to 1914 and are the accepted means of abbreviated communication for our service. There is a list of those codes in the commerative issue of QST and in most ARRL publications. Also as someone aptly pointed out, the Q-codes are understood internationally.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AK4P on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
One of the main reasons 10 codes are not used in Amateur Radio, is that the 10 codes were meant to be used by COMMERCIAL radio services. Since Amateur Radio by design is prohibited from conducting radio communications for business reasons, there is no need to use the 10 codes. Hams have their own "shorthand" for radio that has been tried, tested and copied by the military for one. Using 10 codes on ham radio misleads the public into thinking we are commercial radio services. (And people do listen to hams).
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W0FM on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Seems strange to me that the "Q" signals, developed to shorten messages sent by telegraphers and/or CW operators start with the letter "Q"....one of the longest letters of the Morse Code alphabet. How'd they decide that?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to make them "E" signals if you really wanted to shorten messages?

I see a lot of ERM here that is really petty. I am going to ESY to other web site.

73, from my ETH to yours.

Terry, WŘFM
 
?  
by KC8VWM on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think people use these codes as a matter of "Lingo" or "Ham Speak" if you will, rather than using it for any real communication advantage.

Of course, using any sort of "Lingo" talk on Amateur Radio, isn't appropriate and doesn't really belong on Amateur Radio now does it...

:)

Charles - KC8VWM /PC
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W6TH on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!




Only America makes changes to ham radio, but the other countries remain faithful to the higher ranks of ham radio.

Now lets add some computer sayings: IMHO BTW BTU, now we are talking.
10:04?

.:
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N9XNJ on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I don;t check in to eham very often anymore, much less follow these "forums". When I do I am always amazed at the amount of bitter, embroiled, rhetoric that they seem to generate. An outsider might quickly gain the opinion that hams are all quite bigotted and intoloerant. And this is what I think about when I run into fellow hams on the street and they say, "I haven't heard you on the air lately!" My usual response with a smile is: "No, you haven't..."
Sometimes things get to the point where you just have to laugh at the silliness of it all and move on to more productive pursuits.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W9WHE-II on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
We need to avoid 10-codes because they make us sound like CB!

Anything and everything we can do to differentiate ourselves from the 11 meter "good buddies" should be done, lest we get lumped in with them.

W9WHE
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N3DRK on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Mark,
It is called TRADITION. Something that the up and coming "hams" have little appreciation for these days.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N1XV on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey! And while we're at it why dont we put dual 11 meter whips on freaked out large trucks and ask what's your 20?? If your in an ARES situation where your talking to incedent command so be it otherwise there's no room for this sort of vomit! N1XV
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Seems strange to me that the "Q" signals, developed to shorten messages sent by telegraphers and/or CW operators start with the letter "Q"....one of the longest letters of the Morse Code alphabet. How'd they decide that?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to make them "E" signals if you really wanted to shorten messages?
Terry, WŘFM"

Terry, the reason for "Q" is that no word in the English language begins with "Q" without a "U" following. Therefore the 3-character codes could not be confused with real words.
 
RE: ?  
by K4JF on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I think people use these codes as a matter of "Lingo" or "Ham Speak" if you will, rather than using it for any real communication advantage.

Of course, using any sort of "Lingo" talk on Amateur Radio, isn't appropriate and doesn't really belong on Amateur Radio now does it...

:)

Charles - KC8VWM /PC"

Of course it belongs, Charles. EVERY hobby has its own lingo. The Q-codes (and "73" and "88") are ours and it is entirely appropriate to use them, in my opinion. No less appropriate than using "port", "starboard" and "halyards" on my sailboat, or "T-5 and 5.0" when referring to my '65 Mustang.

What I have a problem with, is incorrect usage, such as "QRZ?" when no one is calling you. Or "QRL" when you are not in QSO with someone.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Good!! But you must admit it is a tiny fraction of
> the traffic on that band. I had a CB in my car
> before I retired - used it to talk to the truck
> drivers of my company (I was Safety Director). But
> it was difficult to get through the garbage most of
> the time. Took it out and installed a TS-50 when I
> retired. :o)

I think it depends a lot on where you are. I drive a lot in the west (CA, OR, WA, AZ, NV, ID, MT, WY, UT and NM) and I would guestimate that 90-95% of the CB traffic I hear is legitimate. The vast majority of it is trucker-to-trucker traffic in road construction.

When I do hear crap, it tends to be from the same three or four trouble makers, all of whom claim to be from the southeast.

The last time I was involved in a longish discussion over CB bad guys, most of the reports of problems came from the Baltimore-DC area; with most of the rest coming from a handful of routes along major interstates, most notably I-40.

Not that there's that much CB traffic of any sort, these days. It's not unusual, with a good antenna here in Mtn View, to go hours between hearing anything on the CB scanner. And then, most of what I do hear locally is long-haul truckers figuring out where they can meet for a meal.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> One of the main reasons 10 codes are not used in
> Amateur Radio, is that the 10 codes were meant to be
> used by COMMERCIAL radio services. Since Amateur
> Radio by design is prohibited from conducting radio
> communications for business reasons, there is no
> need to use the 10 codes.

It's the other way round. Q signs were meant for commercial radio service. 10 codes were meant for public service radio services.

However, the intent of a code doesn't matter; it's the application.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Anything and everything we can do to differentiate
> ourselves from the 11 meter "good buddies" should be
> done, lest we get lumped in with them.

Did you know that last year at Hamvention, W1AW was on the air portable, complements of a Texas REACT group -- of which the ARRL president is a member, by the way.

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K8XF on October 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Q-Codes are shorter that the 10-XX codes. And since many people have already mentioned that Q-Codes preceeded 10 codes why ask this question? Can you
imagine saying my 10-20 vs qth on cw.....not in my book. No tnx...


73

Mike, K8XF

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WIRELESS on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey I have an idea! How about those who like to use 10 codes use them, and those that don't, they don't have to use them. Where did the idea come from that everyone has to do the same thing? Oh I know, the farts think they run ham radio.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W9WHE-II on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AE6IP writes:

"Did you know that last year at Hamvention, W1AW was on the air portable, complements of a Texas REACT group -- of which the ARRL president is a member, by the way".

I didn't know that. But given the way ARRL is run, I'm not surprised. Thanks for the insight.

W9WHE

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by WIRELESS on October 26, 2004

"Hey I have an idea! How about those who like to use 10 codes use them, and those that don't, they don't have to use them."

There you go, another example of wanting to change ham radio to meet some indivuduals wants and desires, with no good reason for it.


"Where did the idea come from that everyone has to do the same thing?"

Common sense.
Courtesy.
Established norms.
Tradition.

Why do you want to create another chaos of everybody doing whatever they want to do? There is already a place for that - it is the Clown Band.

I already explained to you earlier in this thread, when you were mixed up, that 10 codes are fine for police departments and fire departments, if they want to use them. They don't belong on ham radio.
Maybe you missed that.


" Oh I know, the farts think they run ham radio."

Name calling can be construed to be childish behaviour.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KE4SKY on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Public safety agencies nationwide are rapidly discarding the old APCO Ten-Codes because the conditions for continuance of FEMA Homeland Security Preparedness Grants require localities to adopt provisions of the National Incident Management System and Incident Command System in 2005.

ICS principles include the use of plain language and common terminology, standardized typing and classification for equipment and resources, and also establishes national training and certification standards for response personnel.

If ARES and RACES are to have any involvement with agencies which have a role under local emergency response plans or the National Response Plan, they will also need to follow the rules.

Every ARES and RACES member should at a minimum take the new IS-22 Personal Preparedness and the IS-100 Intro to ICS and IS-700 NIMS overview. A complete list of free Independent Study courses available for download from FEMA is at the URL:

http://www.training.fema.gov/emiweb/IS/crslist.asp

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WIRELESS on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Younger wireless radio hams will have a new noncommercial site to visit next year. The new site will go on line in the 2nd or 3rd quarter. This site will have a EULA that prevents anyone over 29 years old or licensed for more than 60 months to use it. Since IP's will be recorded, inforcement will be easy. This site will bust every tradition in ham radio. The words ARRL, Ham, Amateur, SK, Q codes, etc. will be banned. The site will bring new people to the hobby in complete ignorance of everything in the hobby now. I have seen alot of the content and it will kill every ham radio tradition that exists today.

New wireless licenses will grow up in a hobby that does not resemble anything today. It will be very interesting. A new crop of people will reinvent the hobby for the better and let what now exists die out.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W3ZD on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10 codes are not used because their meanings are not clear to all. I work in public safety and between 7 different areas, some of the 10 codes have different meanings between some departments.

"Q" codes should ONLY be used on the cw bands. They are shorthand to make questions and answers easier.

Clayton W3ZD and GRSM Communications Center
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC8VWM on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>The site will bring new people to the hobby in complete ignorance of everything in the hobby now. I have seen alot of the content and it will kill every ham radio tradition that exists today.<<


This hobby as you describe already exists. I believe the calling frequency is 27.185


 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WA4DOU on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Q signals used to be used liberally when all hams were "know code" hams. Now that the phone bands are being taken over by aliens, notice how they are redefining things to exclude the venacular of the "former" users. Threads like this clearly demonstrate that a sharp division in amateur radio has occurred.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Q signals used to be used liberally when all hams
> were "know code" hams.

True for CW, never true for voice.

> Now that the phone bands are being taken over by
> aliens, notice how they are redefining things to
> exclude the venacular of the "former" users.

It has always been best practice to use plain language, possibly augmented by phonetics, on voice.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4RAF on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Younger wireless radio hams will have a new noncommercial site to visit next year."

The site will be?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Public safety agencies nationwide are rapidly
> discarding the old APCO Ten-Codes because the
> conditions for continuance of FEMA Homeland Security
> Preparedness Grants require localities to adopt
> provisions of the National Incident Management
> System and Incident Command System in 2005.

While this is true to some extent, the picture is a lot more complex. Some states had already standardized on an exact set of 10 codes, and so all agencies already met the consistency requirement.

Meanwhile, here in CA, where ICS originated and has been in use the longest, and probably in other areas, 10 codes, even when not standarized, are not being phased out in police service.

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
by WIRELESS on October 26, 2004

"...
The new site will go on line in the 2nd or 3rd quarter.
...
This site will bust every tradition in ham radio."

I'm glad that you will have a place to go, where you will fit in.


"...
The site will bring new people to the hobby"

What hobby would that be?
It wouldn't be ham radio. Perhaps that it would not is a good thing.


"in complete ignorance of everything in the hobby now."

Ham radio itself seems to have plenty of this now.


"I have seen alot of the content and it will kill every ham radio tradition that exists today. "

Fine. Keep it on that new non-ham site that you mentioned.


"New wireless licenses will grow up in a hobby that does not resemble anything today. It will be very interesting. A new crop of people will reinvent the hobby for the better and let what now exists die out. "

That which exists now is ham radio. It has been around for scores of years.
I am under the impression that this site, eham.net , is devoted to ham radio. It follows that those that post here should have some interest in ham radio.

After reading your post above, I am led to wonder why you are here.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
>> Where did the idea come from that everyone has to
>> do the same thing?

> Common sense.
> Courtesy.
> Established norms.
> Tradition.

Alas, no, it comes from none of these things.

1) Common sense. Consider the use of 'standard phonetics'. Common sense says "listen to the phonetics the DX is using, and use those; since the DX is more likely to understand what they are familiar with."

2) Courtesy. Miss Manners would frown mightly on the idea of uniformity. More than that, Miss Manners would point out that courtesy is to adapt to the behavior of others, and not draw attention to their differences.

3) Established norms. While this might be a reason, the reality is that the long established norms have never had the level of uniformity some here would demand. The norms, after all, are set by amateurs world wide, and until recently, the majority of those didn't even speak English as a first language. Were 'established norms' the justification for practice, we would DX in Japanese.

4) Tradition. The funny thing about tradition is that it's always changing. To do things merely because of tradition is to be slavishly obedient to the past.

Traditions should not be dispensed with lightly; nor should they be adhered to slavishly. The first too readily dismisses the lessons of the far past; the second too readily dismisses the lessons of the immediate past.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WA4DOU on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Marty, where do you get off?

I said, " Q signals used to be used liberally when all hams were "know code" hams.

You respond with, " True for cw, never true for voice".

Marty, I know you like to be perceived as a man who knows it all but I was licensed over 4 decades before you and you aren't qualified to speak about the practices that occurred on the phone bands then. Q signals such as QRM, QRN, QTH, QSY, QSL, QRO, QRP, etc. were commonly used by phone ops. in the 160-6 meter spectrum. They are still in use to this day there. They are part of the venacular of amateur radio whether you like it or not. You and all like you who bring to amateur radio your strange ideas about "proper" behavior that was learned in other arenas will no doubt prevail and pervert amateur radio until it becomes another animal. However, until the last of the dinosauers are gone, the conversion will not be complete.


Where do you get off making a pronouncement that it has always been best practice to use plain language on voice communications? You simply haven't been around long enough to be making any pronouncements about much of anything in amateur radio.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Marty, where do you get off?

At the San Antonio Avenue Station.

> I said, " Q signals used to be used liberally when
> all hams were "know code" hams.

> You respond with, " True for cw, never true for
> voice".

> Marty, I know you like to be perceived as a man who
> knows it all

Nope. I've gone out of my way to point out that I don't know it all.

> but I was licensed over 4 decades before you and you
> aren't qualified to speak about the practices that
> occurred on the phone bands then.

Why? That's like suggesting that no one can be a heart surgeon before they've had a heart attack.

> Q signals such as QRM, QRN, QTH, QSY, QSL, QRO, QRP,
> etc. were commonly used by phone ops. in the 160-6
> meter spectrum.

By some opereators, no doubt. Being done is not the same thing as being good practice.

> They are still in use to this day there.

Yup. Here them misused from time to time.

> They are part of the venacular of amateur radio
> whether you like it or not.

Yup. The word you're looking for is 'affectation'.

> You and all like you who bring to amateur radio your
> strange ideas about "proper" behavior that was
> learned in other arenas will no doubt prevail and
> pervert amateur radio until it becomes another
> animal.

In this instance, my 'strange ideas' about "proper" behavior come from the handbook; which has made the same observation for at least as long as you've been a ham. The same comment about 'best practice' has been made in this thread by long term hams, by the way.

> However, until the last of the dinosauers are gone,
> the conversion will not be complete.

You've got me confused with someone else. I don't think there's an us-versus-them dinosaur's-dying-out situation here; and, in this instance, I'm not trying to change anything; I'm merely reporting on reality.

> Where do you get off making a pronouncement that it
> has always been best practice to use plain language
> on voice communications?

It's fascinating that you've made this all personal, and haven't stopped long enough to consider the claim itself. It *has* always been best practice to use plain language on voice. Even in the amateur radio service. And your attack on me isn't going to change that. At least one long term ham has given an example in this thread of why it's better not to use Q signs on voice.

> You simply haven't been around long enough to be
> making any pronouncements about much of anything in
> amateur radio.

It takes someone with any previous familiarity with the FCC, background in RF, and experience in any other anachronistic hobby on the order of six months to understand the social dynamics of amateur radio. A history of technology buff might take another three months to sort out the historical aspects of the hobby. There's just not that much 'there' there to have to figure out.

The technical aspects can take a lot longer to master; and I'm certainly not going to make pronouncements about propagation or antenna design, but after a year of 40m voice nets, including months of NCS duty, I'm more than willing to say a thing or two about voice operating practice.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K8NQC on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This is the most disheartning post I have ever seen on an amateur radio site. Once upon a time, one who became an amateur radio operator could speak of his new status with pride. The behavior of CB operators so degraded the image of radio users that it will forever leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who lived through the experience. Even though many fine amateurs came from CB roots, they left the stench of CB behind and have been welcomed into the hobby as full members. Those who try to drag the CB with them will always be reviled in the hobby. The day they are not, ham radio will be a thing of the past. The whole thing can then be renamed CB.

I have not kept up with the job market in recent years. When I was still in the work force few men wanted to perform police work. The pay was poor, It was hard, dangerous work and much of the work day had to be spent around undesirable people. Except for a handful of Barney Fife type cops, most of the officers were dedicated people. They were not guys we would have wanted to trade jobs with in any case. Infering that we would want to adopt their communications protocol makes little sense. Almost all their communications is local and we hams, once we have earned full qualifications, communicate around the world.

I do believe this unworthy thread ought to be terminated. QRT
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WA3LGG on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
you could combine the apco 10 code and the Q code.... example....10-4-Q....
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA4DOU, don't let Marty upset you...he's our resident troll on eham.... He's ONLY been licensed 2 years and he already knows EVERYTHING about ham radio..so it's useless to argue with him....
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N0FIB on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AS KC0KBH said "Hams dislike them because they are related to CB".

Well I really wonder how many of the ham population was in CB radio before becoming a ham. I know lots of them. I think that as long as you get the message across of what you are trying to say that is what counts even if you have to use Q codes or 10 Codes. Just be professional and show that world you do know how to operate a ham radio and not cuss, play music or do intentional interference to other ham operators who are on the bands...

Have a good day.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"you could combine the apco 10 code and the Q code.... example....10-4-Q..."

Qute!

I am glad someone has maintained their sense of humor through all this.

 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WC4SKY on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10-Codes shoul be allowed only if sent using Morse at greater then 13 WPM. That way no one will be mistaken for a low life CB'r!
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WC4SKY on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Please delete 'shoul' and replace with 'should'.
10-4
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> WA4DOU, don't let Marty upset you...he's our
> resident troll on eham....

By the way, you never did say what 'troll' means to you. Care to do so now?

> He's ONLY been licensed 2 years and he already knows
> EVERYTHING about ham radio..

Tsk, tsk. Still repeating that rot, even after I took the time to point out areas of ham radio about which I know nothing.

> so it's useless to argue with him....

If I'm so overwhelmingly under-informed, it should be trivial for 'experienced' hams to point out the error in what I've posted. Yet, that's never the way the responses seem to go.

Rather, they almost always seem to go the way of the true troll, such as yourself, and degenerate into personal attacks.

It's bad practice to use Q-codes on voice. Always has been, always will be; and the handbook has said so for decades.

Doesn't mean hams don't use Q-codes on voice. Doesn't mean there weren't hams 40 years ago doing. Does mean that it's not best practice and never has been.

Let me ask you another question there, RADIO, OM: Why do you feel so threatened by someone being able to understand the hobby in a short period of time?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AE6IP said "Let me ask you another question there, RADIO, OM: Why do you feel so threatened by someone being able to understand the hobby in a short period of time? "

I don't feel threatened at all by you Marty....but there are a lot of folks here that are SICK and TIRED of you constantly trying to start fights with them. If you want to know the TRUTH, most folks here find you quite annoying, and WISH you would go away....
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hold the phone...

10 codes are used by CBers as a form of slang. 10 codes are also used in other radio services as a tool, and done correctly, it not only works well, it can sound very professional.

ARES operators are used to having to follow rules and protocol. The ones I know could use 10 codes properly. For some reason my suggestion has been taken as an introduction of slang to amateur radio. That was not my intent at all. Some of you appear to understand that, others do not.

Be it known as well, that if there were other ways to enhance emergency communications I would be willing to try them. (Do a Google search on amateur radio break tags) My intent in no way was to suggest a degradation of the hobby.

Suggestions were made to use Q codes. I personally don't feel they suffice due to my opinion that they don't cover the need as well as 10 codes and they also force a three syllable minimum. Two letter Q codes may be an idea, created specifically for amateur radio emergency communication. I would not be against that at all, and with 26 possible combinations, there are more than enough for our needs.

I noted some responses from amateur extra class hams that mentioned their distaste for 10 codes on HF, in CW, neither of which I suggested. I also sense that some of them don't work much more than HF and mostly CW. Might I suggest they listen in on some ARES operations on 2 meters? I don't know what it is like elsewhere, but here in Western Michigan it seems to be very well run and organized. What I am leading to is that I see a separation between the old and the new ways in ham radio and I don't really care for it. The old and the new can live together happily and do here in our area.

As for the suggestion that we use plain English, that is just what we do here. The problem I encounter is that when plain English is used, it is sometimes hard to get the user to A) be concise and do B) stop talking. The use of 10 codes not only condenses the messages, but gives an overall air of brevity on the radio. (brevity is used here to mean the practice of being brief)

To illustrate how 10 codes can be used correctly. The easy one is 10-4. This means "understood". How many times have you heard a ham use the single word "understood" while talking on the radio? The word is usually buried in half a paragraph starting with "Well, uh, I, uh, ha ha, am pretty sure, uh." and so on an so forth. 10-9 is a request to repeat a message. Two syllables, done deal. In English that request would probably include an explaination, an opinion or two and several just plain unecessary words.

To be long winded seems to be something we are having a hard time to 'train out' of people. 10 codes would help. 10 codes have a quality shared by CW as well. They can be easily understood in noisy environments.

There are shortcomings, I concede. Some I knew of and some I learned from your posts. I will take all info to heart.

Thanks and 73,

Mark KB8UFF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Nice comments, Mark.

But: "To illustrate how 10 codes can be used correctly. The easy one is 10-4. This means "understood". How many times have you heard a ham use the single word "understood" while talking on the radio? The word is usually buried in half a paragraph starting with "Well, uh, I, uh, ha ha, am pretty sure, uh." and so on an so forth. 10-9 is a request to repeat a message. Two syllables, done deal. In English that request would probably include an explaination, an opinion or two and several just plain unecessary words. "

No, not the case. The CORRECT way to say that you understand is "Roger" (On CW, it's "R"). (Not "understood".) Simple, concise, understood by all radio services. No need to say anything else, just go on with the conversation. Good practice, and I have used it and heard it used a lot on all bands over my 30 years of operations, and not once was it ever misinterpreted or missed.

You asked how many Extras are active on other than HF? Start the count here. I'm on 2M almost every day, check into the 2m traffic net regularly. Equipped for all modes on 2. (And I never announce that I'm "monitoring". Too much like broadcasting, in my opinion, but that's another subject...) Also active on 70cm. Also active most days on 20, 17, 15, and occasionally on 75M. And 10 is fun when it's open! (Retirement is great!!)
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W2DUG on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I don't feel threatened at all by you Marty....but
> there are a lot of folks here that are SICK and
> TIRED of you constantly trying to start fights with
> them. If you want to know the TRUTH, most folks here
> find you quite annoying, and WISH you would go
> away....

I enjoy reading Marty's posts, and I don't want him to go away. I always scroll down the page until I see something from Marty because I know there will be some smart reading and lively responses to follow.

The only reason fights seem to center around his posts is that he quite consistently separates fact from from folklore, opinion and urban legend, and it seems most folks in this forum don't like to be told they're wrong or have others disagree. If we had more rationality like Marty's in these forums, the image of the amateur radio community might not be so sour.

No, Marty is not a troll, but he seems to walk over their bridges a lot.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WB9JTK on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
" ... I cannot think of a single example where a 10-code would provide more clarity & detail than plain English ... "

I just did. Logging. I ask if anyone here has experience as a police/fire etc dispatcher, if so, comment on this thought; I am under the impression that they wrote down EVERY communication from the field to dispatch. So when unit 555 called in '10-8 at walk & don'twalk, the dispatcher could just log

time unit traffic
13:45 555 10-8 walk&don'twalk



These days they record EVERYTHING on tape so I suppose the logging is not as strict now.



And the FCC does allow codes on amateur radio as long as they are published and "readily available."
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by NJ0E on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> "Did you know that last year at Hamvention, W1AW
> was on the air portable, complements of a Texas
> REACT group -- of which the ARRL president is a
> member, by the way".

> I didn't know that. But given the way ARRL is run,
> I'm not surprised. Thanks for the insight.

> W9WHE

react now includes both amateur radio, cb, and gmrs.

from their web site:

A lot has changed within REACT. We have extended our range of communications and now include GMRS [General Mobile Radio Service] and Amateur radio bands. We use cellular phones, electronic mail and many teams have web sites.

see:
http://www.reactintl.org/mkt.need-you.htm

i'm glad that jim participates in react, if that is
true.

73
scott nj0e
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WA7H on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I wouldn’t even comment on this topic except that it was directed towards emergency communications and special event communications (which is a great opportunity to practice for emergencies). In accordance with the National Incident Management System (NIMS), which is based almost totally on the tried and true Incident Command System (ICS), Appendix A, Tab 4D, says:

“Most complex incidents will require an Incident Communications Plan. The Communications Unit is responsible for planning the use of radio frequencies; establishing networks for command, tactical, support, and air units; setting up on-site telephone and public address equipment; and providing any required off-incident communication links. Codes should not be used for radio communication; a clear spoken message – based on common terminology that avoids misunderstanding in a complex and noisy situation – reduces the chances for error.”

I suggest to any hams involved in ARES, RACES, MARS, or anyone involved in emergency communications to learn NIMS and work with-in your local ICS structure. The key word these days is “interoperability” this refers to common terminology as well as equipment.

You can download the NIMS document at: http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NIMS-90-web.pdf

You can take online ICS (IS-100 & IS-200) and NIMS (IS-700) courses at:
http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/crslist.asp

73 :-)
Steve
WA7H
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB9YZL on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W2DUG;

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion:……But I very much doubt that your infatuation with Marty will stand the test of time.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”



 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N8CP on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I see no need for ten codes or any other, say what you mean and get done with it
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC8VWM on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!



10-2, 10-20 EM89kw, 10-27 146.520, 10-41? 10-10,
10-65.

KC8VWM - 10-8 at 16:00 hrs.





 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K6LCS on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Plain English is the most efficient manner to get your message through. In the US, at least.

Clint Bradford, K6LCS
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Plain English is the most efficient manner to get your message through. In the US, at least.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS "

Agreed. Somehow this got from casual conversation to public service traffic.

When doing PS work, plain language is best. (Spoken from many years experience.)

When in a casual QSO, there's nothing wrong with saying "QSO", or "QSY" or "73".

10-codes do not belong at any time, they are simply not, and never have been, Ham radio. And most hams don't know them, beyond the laughable "10-4 good buddy".
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by WILLY on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

by AE6IP on October 26, 2004

"
>> Where did the idea come from that everyone has to
>> do the same thing?

> Common sense.
> Courtesy.
> Established norms.
> Tradition.

Alas, no, it comes from none of these things. "

Alas, of course it does.


"
1) Common sense."


You don't have anything against common sense, do you?


" Consider the use of 'standard phonetics'. "

Why consider the use of standard phonetics?
I was talking about 10 codes - the topic - but you edited that part out.


"Common sense says "listen to the phonetics the DX is using, and use those; since the DX is more likely to understand what they are familiar with."

If you want to go off on a tangent, and talk about DX - then sure, your immediate above is ok. By the way, I'm glad you didn't suggest using 10 codes on a DX station.


"
2) Courtesy. Miss Manners would frown mightly on the idea of uniformity."

What does Miss Manners have to do with it? Unless of course, she is a ham radio operator. Then perhaps she might know a thing or two about our operating.


"More than that, Miss Manners would point out that courtesy is to adapt to the behavior of others,"

Well, well. Maybe she does know something after all. So you are saying that Miss Manners would tell those that use 10 codes while operating a ham radio to stop doing it, and listen and learn how to operate correctly. Excellent!


"and not draw attention to their differences. "

Although this contradicts your earlier statement about
uniformity, I agree with it. When they quit using 10 codes, and listen and learn more normal operating practice, they will stop drawing attention to their differences. They will also get the job done better, and not sound foolish.

"
3) Established norms. While this might be a reason,"

Right. Tnx.

"the reality is that the long established norms have never had the level of uniformity some here would demand. The norms, after all, are set by amateurs world wide,"

What do hams in other countries have to do with 10 codes?
Amateurs in other countries use 10 codes? ??
That is what we are talking about here. But you edited that out.


"and until recently, the majority of those didn't even speak English as a first language. Were 'established norms' the justification for practice, we would DX in Japanese. "

Again, if you want to go off on a tangent, you are partially on the right road. Didn't somebody else in this thread already make a comment about having a nice contact with a Japanese station, even though neither spoke much of the other's language? And it was because of the use of Q terms? Ah yes... Q signals...they're a long established ham norm.


"4) Tradition. The funny thing about tradition is that it's always changing."

Yes, it is. Slowly. See #1) Common sense. It is a key ingredient.


"To do things merely because of tradition is to be slavishly obedient to the past."

To change just for the sake of change, with no good reason, is ignorant and foolish - and attempts to do it pop up all the time.


"
Traditions should not be dispensed with lightly; nor should they be adhered to slavishly."

Sounds like an application of common sense to me. Way to go!


"The first too readily dismisses the lessons of the far past; the second too readily dismisses the lessons of the immediate past. "

With a caveat:
The lessons of the far past have passed the test of time. The lessons of immediate past have not.

Those that have been around for a goodly portion of the "far past" have experienced dealing with both, and we should take advantage of that experience and listen to what they have to say.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KB9YZL said "You are, of course, entitled to your opinion:……But I very much doubt that your infatuation with Marty will stand the test of time. "

Kent, although we have had differing opinions in the past, it's good to see we finally found something that we can both can agree on...

73


 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WILLY said "Those that have been around for a goodly portion of the "far past" have experienced dealing with both, and we should take advantage of that experience and listen to what they have to say. "

Thanks WILLY !!!

Hey Marty....2 years does not qualify as the "far past"...
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I don't feel threatened at all by you Marty.

Oh? You're sure doing an excellent job of making it appear otherwise; with all your incorrect asssertions about my actions.

> but there are a lot of folks here that are SICK and
> TIRED of you constantly trying to start fights with
> them.

Like that one. I haven't tried to start fights with anyone here. I disagree, and I say what that disagreement is, directly, and as clearly as I can.

You, on the other hand, never seem to post, except to pick fights.

> If you want to know the TRUTH, most folks here find
> you quite annoying, and WISH you would go away....

If I want to know the truth, the last person I would ask is someone who distorts facts as readily and obviously as you do.

On the other hand, I will accept that you are an expert at being tiresome.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K1CJS on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
How about this.......

Just as suggested in the article about improper language on the radio, if you're so upset about hearing it, there's two particular controls on your radio that will be helpful to you, one is the volume/on-off, the other, the frequency selector. Use one or the other and you won't hear the offending vernacular. If you hear it again, try again. That is, if any of you actually listen to your rigs nowadays, or are you all on the internet more.......
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AE6IP said "Like that one. I haven't tried to start fights with anyone here. I disagree, and I say what that disagreement is, directly, and as clearly as I can."

Come on Marty, most threads here go just fine until you show up and declare you are the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. That's when folks start getting upset...it's called trolling....havn't you figured that out yet ??? I know most of the others here have figured out what you are doing...

AE6IP said "If I want to know the truth, the last person I would ask is someone who distorts facts as readily and obviously as you do."

Hmmmm...so Marty, you say I'm distorting the fact that you are annoying ??? How would you know ??? Isn't that something that HAS to be determined by the folks that are being annoyed ???
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by RADIO123US on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
My real question here is why 10 codes are even being SERIOUSLY discussed in a ham radio forum ??? When I hear someone on the local 2 meter repeater using 10 codes, my first thought is "CBer" or "Rookie"...that will NEVER change...the 10 codes are so imbedded in the CB culture that it would be crazy to ever think we would seriously even consider them....

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I've excerpted. See the messsage I'm replying to for details.

>> Consider the use of 'standard phonetics'.

> Why consider the use of standard phonetics?
> I was talking about 10 codes - the topic - but you
> edited that part out.

Um, no, you weren't. You were responding to the question "Where did the idea come from that everyone has to do the same thing?"

You suggested that 'everyone has to do the same thing' for four reasons, including common sense. I pointed out an example where, in fact, common sense dictated doing something different, not the same, as "everyone".


> What does Miss Manners have to do with it? Unless of
> course, she is a ham radio operator. Then perhaps
> she might know a thing or two about our operating.

We were discussing 'courtesy'. Miss Manners has a considerable amount to do with understanding what 'courtesy' is.

>> the reality is that the long established norms have
>> never had the level of uniformity some here would
>> demand. The norms, after all, are set by amateurs
>> world wide,"

> What do hams in other countries have to do with 10
> codes?

They have everything to do with setting the norms of amateur radio. You recall, your claim that everyone must do the same thing because of 'norms'. It's fairly clear that in amateur radio this is not true, since we don't do QSOs in Japanese, the normal language of hams until recently.

>> 4) Tradition. The funny thing about tradition is
>> that it's always changing.

> Yes, it is. Slowly. See #1) Common sense. It is a
> key ingredient.

Not always slowly, and not all traditions need to be overturned through 'common sense'.

> To change just for the sake of change, with no good
> reason, is ignorant and foolish - and attempts to do
> it pop up all the time.

That can be true. However, arbitrary customs can be, and are, changed just for the sake of change, even in amateur radio. Real wisdom is to know which is which.

>> The first too readily dismisses the lessons of the
>> far past; the second too readily dismisses the
>> lessons of the immediate past.

> With a caveat:
> The lessons of the far past have passed the test of
> time. The lessons of immediate past have not.

It is not the lesson that is tested over time, but the response to the lesson. The amount of time, by the way, has very little impact on the quality of the test. A tradition never questioned is a response never tested; for instance.

> Those that have been around for a goodly portion of
> the "far past" have experienced dealing with both,
> and we should take advantage of that experience and > listen to what they have to say.

Alas, it is not true that those who have experience from the past will have experience with both. CW operators who never operate voice provide a good example to the contrary.

This thread is showing that those who've never worked in public service, have little basis for understanding the strengths and weaknesses of using 10 codes in public service or EMMCOM, as another example.

But experience is no more than what you make of it.

If one has learned from all of those years of service, then one should be able to state the argument for one's position clearly and concisely. There is no one whose opinion deserves less weight than one who says "because I am experienced you must accept what I have to say."

Common sense is to listen to all positions, understand *why* things are done the way they are, and why the suggested changes are thought to be an improvement, or not; and then decide what to do.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AE6IP on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> AE6IP said "If I want to know the truth, the last
> person I would ask is someone who distorts facts as
> readily and obviously as you do."

> Hmmmm...so Marty, you say I'm distorting the fact
> that you are annoying

Nope. Never said that. Thanks for providing a perfect example of you distorting facts readily and obviously.


 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA7H

Thanks for pointing out the section in the ICS language about codes. You are probably correct that the NIMS language is likely the same. We just adopted the NIMS system and are attempting to utilize it.

This is the type of feedback I was looking for. Facts, not opinions.

Thanks again and 73,

Mark KB8UFF
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K5BP on October 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I am surprised I didn't see mentioned the purpose of the "10" in ten codes. From what I remember being told, this dates back to the old mobile tube radios with a dynamotor high voltage supply that powered the transmitter. For those who don't know, that is a motor-generator set. A low voltage (6 volt) motor drives a high voltage generator (commonly 400 volts) and thus converts 6v into 400v. When one keyed the mike there was a short delay before the motor spins up. Thus the first part of what was said was missed, especially when one quick keyed. The "10" was placed in the code to compensate. So if the dispatcher only heard the "four" in the "ten-four" the dispatcher knew that it meant "ten-four".

Since radios key up almost instantly with PTT now, on this basis, it could be argued the "ten codes" are obsolete. In fact, some public safety agencies are stressing plain english as has been previously mentioned.

73

Bernie Parker
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KB2KZT on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Many hams do not know the meaning of all of the 10 codes and don't care to learn them. I think the Q codes have already been established as the way to abbreviate on the amateur bands. What would happen if a professional emergency response worker who was also a ham substituted Q codes for 10 codes. I don't think it would be accepted. There is a proper time and place for everything.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KR4BD on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have heard Q-calls used by various police departments in Florida. QSL for 10-4, etc. Are there other areas around the country where the police/fire use ham codes?

Tom, KR4BD
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W8RCA on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10 codes......Q codes......the debate continues. 10 codes are different around the country they are not uniform...so just stop using them. Q codes are meant to be used to shorten CW contacts (remember CW??) They are not meant to be used on phone PERIOD. The next time someone wishes me 73's (at least say 73 it's not plural) I'm gonna pull out what little hair I have left on my head at my radio desk in my house.... NOT MY QTH........geeeez
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KE4FBP on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I presently serve with the Virginia Defense Force (A state funded military service in the Commonwealth of Virginia) VADF radio procedure forbids the use of "10" codes becasue of possible and probable confusion. All transmissions are in plain english except for a few pro words.

Ham VHF operations may have to support local civil defense, EMS, or even military communications. Under stress, everyone reverts to the way they were trained.

Experience training part-time volunteer soldiers shows that plain english in short clear sentences works best. Also, new people can be most rapidly made useful if there is less jargon/codes/specialized procedure to follow.

KE4FBP out.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by M0HDX on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I was selling a hf radio and got a telephone call from a guy who wanted to come over and view it,when i said goodbye after our short telephone conversation he replied "73 and good luck in the contest" and hung up.Strange person i thought to myself.

The guy came over to my house and brought the radio off me and asked if he could use my toilet for a 10/100 before he set off on his journey back home.

Anyone know what the hell this guy meant by a 10/100 ?

jim,M0HDX
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by VK3JED on October 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Just a couple of points from the other side of the equator. ;)

Firstly, the standard for a lot of emergency services in Australia is plain language, with some standard prowords, such as "over" and "out" (of course, "over and out" doesn't make sense, as it's inherently self contradictory! ;) ). WICEN (out amateur emergency organisation) also go for plain language, much the same as the above - 90% of what I learnt in the fire service translated directly across to WICEN. Probably the notable exception that I can recall are the police forces, who have their own system of codes.

As for 10 codes, the only place you'll here them used is occasionally on the CB bands, and even there, there's a reluctance on the part of the serious CB hobbyists to use them. The serious CBers here tend to prefer either plain language or amateur Q codes.

Another thing to be careful of is that now it's possible that emergency communications can be handled globally (example - the 2004 hurricane season). Best to stick to something that hams from wherever are going to know, namely Q codes and plain (insert appropriate language here) speech.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by W2DUG on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> The guy came over to my house and brought the radio
> off me and asked if he could use my toilet for a
> 10/100 before he set off on his journey back home.

> Anyone know what the hell this guy meant by a 10/100 ?

------

I hope it meant "potty break"...seems obvious when taken in context, but if this guy was a little strange, who knows? Did you find anything "unusual" in the loo afterwards?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KA3RFE on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Back in the mid-sixties, when my FD got their county wide dispatch center operating, the 10 codes were dropped in favor of plain speech. "OK" for 10-4, "location" for 10-20, "responding" for 10-8, and so forth. This led to some hilarity at first.

An ambulance was dispatched to a serious auto accident one time. The cops asked to have the unit get there as fast as possible. So, the dispatch center tells the unit "county police advise you expedite your response." The unit responds, "OK" a few seconds later the unit transmits, "ambulance 4 to headquarters, what does 'expedite' mean?"

And on arrival at any building fire, the firs unit was to give a status report in plain speech. In the past, a series of three 10 signals would convey all the information. Some fumbling would occur when an engine would get on location of a working fire, but was not able to use the term under the new system and creative esplitives would tend to be "she's lit off!" The "working fire" was disallowed as being slang. Go figure.

73, Pete KA3RFE
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KE4ZHN on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This whole thread has turned into one giagantic 10-100.....10-4?
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KE4ZHN on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
oops...thats "gigantic" for the spelling police. My keyboard must have 10-100 itself.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KC8VWM on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Let's all just have a big Convoy and get it over with...

Ah, breaker one-nine, this here's the Rubber Duck. You gotta copy on me, Pig Pen, c'mon? Ah, yeah, 10-4, Pig Pen, fer shure, fer shure. By golly, it's clean clear to Flag Town, c'mon. Yeah, that's a big 10-4 there, Pig Pen, yeah, we definitely got the front door, good buddy. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy...

 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K5BP on October 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Be very careful, the term "good buddy" has a whole different meaning on CB these days. Decorum in this thread prevents me from elaborating.

73

Bernie
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by M0HDX on October 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W2DUG Quote: did you find anything "unusual" in the loo afterwards.


Douglas i did not find anything unusual in the loo afterwards apart from a little bit of pebble dashing around the basin but apart from that all was fine.I came to the conclusion that he must of had a "MEXICAN POOPIE" you know the kind that smells so bad your nose burns.

oh well douglas at least i found out what a 10/100 was after all.


jim, M0HDX
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by W4UDX on October 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Good grief... not again. Let's make it simple. CB'ers, cops and firemen use 10 codes. They also use their own radio services by FCC definition. Amateur radio does not fall into those other radio services as defined by the FCC. Plain and simple, Amateur radio is NOT CB, and CB is NOT amateur radio. So PLEEZE! STOP TRYING TO BLEND THEM!
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KA6GJN on October 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
In my varied career I've been through four "10-code" systems, Military "Prowords," and "Cleartext." That's on the public service & military side. I've never heard 10-code used in the amateur service, except for people (like me) forgetting what service they're using.

I've also had to learn three phonetic alphabets. Uff-dah!

I was working for the U.S. Forest Service when they switched from the APCO 10-code to Cleartext. I fought it. I was wrong. In terms of efficient communication, Cleartext is the hands down winner. BTW Prowords and Cleartext have much in common. Either one can be understood by anybody, regardless of the radio system, because the words mean exactly what they say.

Cleartext differs from "Plain Speak" only in that it is a list of words that "should" be used. They're easy to remember, because they're the words that you would probably use anyway. There are a couple exceptions, such as "Roger," which, it is believed, is so universally understood that it is allowed. But "OK" is, um, ok, too.

In the western U.S. Cleartext has almost totally replaced 10-codes in the fire service. The movement to Cleartext among law enforcement agencies is much slower, of course, but it is happening.

One problem with 10-codes is that, even with agencies that subscribe to the APCO list there have developed local differences in usage. This has led to no small number of misunderstandings both hilarious and dangerous. Also, they're not always that clear, even on F.M. It's easy to mistake a "ten-fifteen" (prisoner) with a "ten-fifty" (prowler) (at least in the local 10-code).

When I first became a ham I was taught that the 10-code was prohibited, as were all "codes," because hidden meanings, or private communications, where not permitted. The "Q" signals were allowed on CW because they were internationally recognized shorthand. "Q" signals were not appropriate for voice modes. They were/are used anyway, simply because we all knew them.

Cleartext works just fine on the ham bands, and in fact it is used with some regularity, in part by accident. As us old guys, who know the "Q codes" die, so will their use.

It behooves those of us involved in AREA/RACES, however, to know the 10-codes or other sytems in use in our areas. Our operations manuals should include the local 10-codes, as well as a Cleartext list, and probably even Prowords.

So what does this all mean? I think we should allow the 10-code systems to die a natural death, and not perpetuate them on the ham bands, or anywhere else. Their time has passed, right along with A.M. radios in public service. Let us encourage clear, direct, efficient communications no matter what band we're using.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WB2GTC on October 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The reason is simple, our Q signals, and other abbreviations are international. (I can communicate with hams all over the world and they will understand) 10 Signals are not, in my area the State Police use one version, County another, my local dept another and nearby NYPD yet another. The Fire Departments use a totally different system though they are standardiazed within the County. Our goal is to be professional and clear.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N3JWN on November 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Has anyone noticed on the TV show "COPS" the police and fire especially in the west, are using more Q signals?? what's up with that?? Have fun be safe ...Later Dick / n3jwn
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K5TDP on November 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with the last post. I am a trucker and I believe that the 10 codes would only harm amutuer radio. I leave the cb turned off 80% off the time due to improper use by others of the bands.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB8UFF on November 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KA6GJN

Can you send me some info on Cleartext? An Internet search did not provide me with much. If desired, you can send info off line to kb8uff@hotmail.com.

Thanks,

Mark
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N6AYJ on November 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think hams' fixation with avoiding 10-codes stems from the fact that ham radio displays many of the earmarks of a cult. I could elaborate on what those earmarks are, but I won't, except for one: a cult is insecure and defensive about its beliefs because they are illogical and arbitrary, and therefore wants to insulate its members from conflicting outside opinions by enforcement of a cult "culture". This is the same reason why the League was in such a big hurry to send you a copy of the article "Your Novice Accent" when you first got your license. Hams have an insecure and very unbecoming emotional need to believe they are superior to other people just because they passed an FCC test.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by KL7SA on November 1, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
When I became a HAM, I went to several weeks of schooling so I could pass the tests, and at that time we were taught that on CW Bands you use "Q" codes as it took less time to get something across and left more time for sending more CW, and "Q" codes were used in the test that was, at that time, given by the FCC, and that on Voice Bands you never use any type of codes, you spoke in plain english. I don't know where this (what seems to be) hatred for CB'rs comes from as nothing was ever said about CB during the class I took. I think most of us HAM folks got our start on the CB Bands and moved over to HAM Radio after a few years on the CB Bands looking for more frequencies to talk on... And some of us injoy the CW and now of course there is Packet and other means of communicating on the HAM Bands... Why don't we just enjoy what we have and forget about arguing over it all. After all this is a Hobby first and a Hobby I realy enjoy... KL7SA
 
DITCH the APCO 10-Codes  
by W9WHE-II on November 2, 2004 Mail this to a friend!


The only place that 10 codes flourish is 11 meters. Who here wants to be associated with CB?

So, with that, I say this is W9WHE, 10-20 Champaign, Ill, 10-85 (en route) to take a 10-100 (bathroom break) so while doing so I'll be 10-6 (busy) but not 10-7 (out of service) after which I will be 10-8 (in service)as soon as I am 10-23 (arriving) back at my desk. Now, let's not 10-10 (fight) about this because I really don't want to 10-9 (repeat myself) because I don't have the 10-36 (time) to argue with you 10-99 (mental case) people.

Is this what you want to hear on ham radio?

Let's hope not.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N5TXN on November 2, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I started on CB (11 meters) in high school. Spent about a year talking on CB while studying for my ham ticket. At age 18 I received my Technician license which included 5wpm CW at that time (1974). I bought a 2M radio and tried to join in on ham activities. Teenagers were not welcome (at least in the Dallas area) on 2M back then. Teenage hams were not particularly welcome with anything to do with ham radio. It was for engineers, professional, etc. I gave up on ham radio and went back to CB and had a blast. Learned a lot of radio theory, became a avid SWL and scanner listener. In 1992 I once again got a ham ticket, didn't even have to study because the test had been so dumbed down. I past the Novice and Technician test in one sitting. I did study 30 minutes in the parking lot before taking my General test two weeks later.

Point is radio is a hobby. It is suppose to be fun. It is suppose to be educational. Who cares where some one started in the hobby. There are some CB'ers who know more about radio than Extra Class hams do today. 10-4 or QTH or "where yous be", it all means the same thing. Have fun, enjoy the people you meet, the ones in three piece suits and the ones in dirty T-shirts.

We are all involved in the same hobby and the real point is when the cell phones quit, and the police cannot talk to the fire department and the DPS cannot talk to their dispatcher, the hams are there to assist. We do more with less and can communicate when no one else can.

73 Good Buddy

10-7, QRT
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by N6PUO on November 4, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Just to add a twist...Last night I was watching the TV program "Cops" was amazed to see a city in Florida using "Q" codes. When the officers or dispatch wanted to say affirmative they would say "QSL. For "code 4", no further assistance required, they would use "QRU".

I never knew any public service agencies used "Q" codes.

Greg.....N6PUO
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by WA6BFH on November 4, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
10-4 Good buddy!

Seriously, even while I am LOL'ing OM, I agree with the general tenet that this practice would in most cases cause confusion. It may be a helpful time saver for trained and deidcated RACES and ARES groups, it might also sometimes add a lot of confusion.

I grew up on the VHF and UHF FM portions of the bands, where most of these operators using the Motorola or GE or RCA radios were the only ones on FM. There were as yet no cute little Japanese radios. Most of these guys were wedded to 10 codes, they heard and used them everyday as the course of their day job. When the little rice box radios did show up, many 'stayed and proper' W6's complained mightily the first time they heard somone go "10-8 on the channel".

I prefer plain language, even over the use of "Q-signals", I do try to learn all of these strange dialects though. I really enjoyed your comment on the appearence of these fine proffesional communicators that show up in dirty and worn out clothes! That got a big LOL!

Have you ever noticed the Ham, how could you mis him, that has 80,000 buttons on his dirty greasy baseball hat? Whats up with that?
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KB6KGX on November 6, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Over and Out"? Sure... and also "Roger, Wilco", or however you spell it.

We all remember Broderich Crawford's Dan Matthews barking "10-4, 10-4!" into his microphone.
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by N9SZC on November 6, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Its just radio Lingo
Its all Good
Who cares about how the way things are said
At least they are Licensed Amateurs!!
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K9LTR on November 6, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
iiiiii 42
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by AA9ZI on November 7, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Totally agree. We need to learn and institutionalize its use especially among us who "interoperate" with any public safety agencies. Interoperability and brevity are the keywords.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K8AI on November 8, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
These two posts below say it all. The ARRL and other hams of their ilk are the parties responsible for the "dumbing down" of amateur radio.


by N3DRK on October 25, 2004
"Mark,
It is called TRADITION. Something that the up and coming "hams" have little appreciation for these days."


by V73NS on October 23, 2004

"by KD4AC on October 23, 2004
'Then reason for the dislike of the 10 Codes is, if
allowed, they will further dumb-down the Amateur Radio hobby.'

So, using your logic, using a 10-code makes one stupid or dumb? How do you come to that conclusion?

Easy...
*Ask a tech to take a 5 WPM test.
*Give a tech an old novice license test and see if they pass.
*Listen to most any 2 meter repeater.
*Ask them what is a 6146?
*Ask them why they bought a wire antenna when they could make one.
*Ask why are they using 10 Codes which are not accepted.

It's not that no one will teach them these things, they mostly do not want to learn them. As one posted up the page a bit says, its like them taking up bowling and calling a strike a hole in one.... which its not and just because that's what they wish to call it does not make it right.

Remember the short lived idea not to correct the spelling of children, as is can make them feel bad... simply know that they tried to use the right spelling and give them credit for that? HA!

Too many want everything for nothing. Last I checked, I was never rewarded for being lazy. This is not mob rule, this is the way the Amateur Service is, and when in Rome, they should do as the Roman's do.

Respect and tradition are a thing of the past, and this is only because there are people who don't care."
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by AA9YP on November 8, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I am a career firefighter as well as having been a Ham for the past quarter century. My 2 cents worth is as follows. Everything has a history, a tradition , a certain way or practice that has been repeated over many years. The Amateur service is no different.
My elmer taught me what I believe to be the correct operating procedures, after all he had been in the hobby from its inception. Since most Armed Forces insist on radio brevity and procedure, I can understand the adoption of the 10 code. As for public service entities, some use 10 codes with success, some use a combo of plain english and 10 codes. Some use plain english because of the confusion the 10 codes can create.
Citizen Band Service uses 10 codes as well, because at its inception it was meant to be a family and business utility and you were not to talk to other stations but only to those in your family/business under you license. 10 codes were not richly used then ,but plain english was.
10 codes didnt really take hold in CB jargon until the mass assault of truckers started using CB's to communicate.

10 codes as written were designed to encourage brevity, the "q" codes for amateurs were devised long before the 10 codes and used in the CW portions of the bands for the same reason, brevity. Using "q" codes/signals used to be frowned upon on voice bands.

Why does it irk some people to hear the 10 codes used in the amateur service? Because 10 codes were never intended for the amateur service. This goes back to being steeped in tradition.

Why change a tradition or value if it works the way it is. You wouldnt go to spain to speak french any more than you should use 10 codes in the amateur service. Again just my 2 cents worth.

AA9YP Jay
 
APCO 10-Codes  
by K5SET on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'll keep it short! 10 codes and Q codes HAVE NO PLACE on amateur {phone} radio service.
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by KA6GJN on December 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I give up! I've tried to find the "Cleartext" list, and I can't. It appears now, anyway, that the list was intended only as a transition tool. In other words, or numbers, I suppose, rather than saying "10-19," just say, "Returning."

Still, it would seem that a simple list would be a good thing for new operators, at least in public service agencies. Such a list would help people to figure out more quickly how to communicate efficiently. Nobody would argue (would they?) that "flames showing" is more efficient than, "Shore 'nuff, thar's a fire over h'yar!"

When I last worked for the Forest Service, my crew and I decided that we would simplify the process of warning the driver of road hazards. Too much time was wasted as a passenger tried to figure out what was in the road, around the curve, and out of the driver's sight. Our rule became: "If it's standing still, it's a rock. If it's moving, it's a truck." Ultimately it didn't really matter if it turned out to be a rock or a log, or Godzilla, for that matter, as long as you didn't hit it.

Just imagine the accident report. Driver states that his passenger failed to warn him of the road hazard: "He said it was a Kenworth, but it was a Peterbuilt."

Here's an idea: Take the old "10-code" list, and cut off the half with the numbers on it. Just post the definition half of the list, and label it "Suggested Cleartext." or "Plain speak." Whatever.

Merry Christmas to all.
KA6GJN
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K4JF on December 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The comments about hams similarity to a "cult" are just plain ridiculous. There is nothing "insecure" about hams, and they certainly don't feel superior just because they have a license (at least I haven't met any fitting that description in the 30 years I have been a ham). Objecting to Q-codes or other vernacular of the hobby/service is really strange. All avocations have their particular language. It is for precision, more than anything else.

For example, nobody claims that sailors are insecure or superior when they insist that one side is "port" and the other is "starboard". Or when we say that is not a "rope", it is a "halyard", or a "sheet". There are reasons for particular language. On a boat, knowing exactly what one is saying can be critical. (But so can some cases in ARS.) All avocations and vocations have them, so don't single out Amateur Radio and say that we shouldn't do what all else do. As all activities, we have our language, and as we grow in the activity we should learn it as part of the experience.

As for 10-codes, they are not ham radio. Using them is equivalent to saying that the passenger side of your car is starboard. It is technically correct, but sounds ludicrous, and would get you laughed out of any car show or cruise-in.

Now I will QSY, thank you. 73 and GL
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by VE3ESC on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
WHATEVER....

I disagree with ANY form of censorship or chastizing of people for 10 codes or Q codes on the radio. It is unfortunate that others feel the need to police the way that people speak. RELAX, take a pill and maybe turn off your radio and go say hello to your family!!!

Let's face it, some Q codes are useful... "QSL?" is a lot easier and shorter then "Do you understand?". QSY is a lot easier to say than "Change Frequencies to". On the other hand "QTH" and "Location" or "Destination" don't really make much difference. When turning off your radio at the end of a chat it's easier to say "Will be QRT" then "I will be turning off my radio now".

What about things that Q codes don't cover? What's the Q code for "I have to get out of the car and get some gas. I'll be back in about 5 minutes so keep talking without me". What's the Q code for "I have to grab a telephone call, I'll be right back".

Sure, anything can and probably should be said in plain language but WHO CARES! Say what you want, use Q codes or 10 codes. If I don't understand I'll ask!

Best regardses ( 73's)

Rob
 
RE: APCO 10-Codes  
by K8MHZ on January 16, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Holy Cow!!

I didn't expect this to go on this long, let alone show up in a margin on the web site....so long in fact that my call sign has changed since the beginning of this thread.

My research has indicated that the best form of brevity system is that of ClearText. A list will be hard to find as ClearText is a system, not a list. The ClearText lists are created by the users. Common words are used in place of any code so the meaning is understood to those without ClearText training. Only the sending of ClearText requires training.

Thanks to all for the multi-faceted views on this topic.

10-4, Over and Out I'll be QSY'ing to the other one.

73 de K8MHZ (The operator formerly known as KB8UFF)
 
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