Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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November 13, 2004
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
Ham Radio Operators won't be helping the annual Tournament of Roses in Pasadena, California this year.
Nextel is a corporate sponsor of the parade, and has donated a number of phones to the Tournament. Most parade organizers
now have cell phones, and don't need a radio operator shadowing their every move.
Over the years, the radio amateurs have tracked floats with GPS devices, installed a dozen video cameras up and down the
parade route and provided valuable communications for both the parade and viewers. But negotiations with the radio amateurs
broke down Sunday, and the radio amateurs' board voted to back out of the Jan. 1, 2005, parade.
See the full story at:
LINK
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WA2FSO on November 13, 2004
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Well, i am not sure why the hams backed out, i can see the up front reasons. Nextel gave the sponsers phones? or commercial walkie talkies ( direct connect) Nice advertisng ploy at my expense. It would be nice if they would lower there rates instead of sponsering nascar, parades ect.
Too soon people forget that Hams working the comm's at parades, runs, civic events are good training for when the nextels and communications systems go down.In Which during a major blackout in the northeast last August most nextel towers (and other carriers) were down immeaditly and some took a few hours as the back ups died.
During 9/11 most of the nextel DC circuts were overloaded to the point of being usless. In the koas that followed, ham radio was there, when needed as needed.
The one good thing Nextel did was donate hundreds of phones to the differant agencies during the 911 crisis.
The problem is to many people have not been exposed to ham radio, and don't understand why we do what we do.Yes its a hobby, but not like all others, we are ready to go from hobby to serving. So many examples in the past few years, storms, floods, tornados, hurricanes ect, hams jump in and serve, go home afterwards and not seek fame nor fortune, but leave with a sense of satisfaction.
Was backing out of the parade a smart move, i do not know, i don't have any of the facts except from the article. True ham radio doesn't sponser events, we don't have race cars on the track, but its up to the ham comunity to try to expose the public of the positive side of the hobby.
We are dwindling in numbers and we are a forgotten hobby in the publics eye except we some event brings a news report or a small column in a local paper. When that happens we need to ask the reporting party to include the Phone number or email to the local club so a slight intrest by someone can be explored right away.
Just my thoughts, god bless America
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by KV4BL on November 13, 2004
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I hope the Nextels work better there than I understand they did in FL after the recent hurricanes. The story I get from down there is that they were pretty much useless in many areas. In contrast, I hear that the Verizon system worked pretty well and that they even donated the use of their phones to help emergency workers get things rolling again. It's too bad that the hams will not get the chance to participate in what, for practical reasons, could be considered a good "excercise" and whatever little bit of publicity they may get from it. I say "little bit" as sadly, I don't remember ever hearing any newtwork carrying the parade or any newspaper article I have seen mention the part amateur radio played in helping coordinate this big event. Maybe this is why the hams dropped out, this year. If that is the case, I really cannnot blame them. Too many times, events and groups utilize the services of amateur radio but cannot seem to spare a brief "honorable mention" for the group which would be a nice way of saying "thanks" and perhaps in generating some interest in the hobby. Someone please keep us posted on how the Nextels work. 73, Ray KV4BL
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by NY7Q on November 13, 2004
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Hey, Face it, in the country of Kalifornia, a Kalifornian can do anything he/she wants, which is usually different from all the rest of us, in spite of the risks.
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by KU4ZK on November 13, 2004
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Interesting one.
My theory is that the parade will be an advertisement for Nextel services...and corporate sponsors usually do "pad the pockets" of those to pay for their mass-advertisement.
So the choice may have been:
(a) The amateur service: Free. They volunteer their time.
(b) Nextel: Free (this time around), with a little $$$ on the side, so they could get their way.
I think that Nextel wanted to use this as an oppurtunity to show that big events could be run exclusively with their service. They are likely trying to get a big cut into most mobile communications markets, especially related to business. We just happened to "be in the way", this time.
I have first-hand experience with Nextel during all the hurricanes in FL. Most would have been better with longer range mobile / land based transciever equipment designed for emergency use.
This will be one of my selling points to get more people involved with Amateur Radio, instead of depending on infrastructure.
73's...
--Robert
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by K4RAF on November 13, 2004
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"My theory is that the parade will be an advertisement for Nextel services...and corporate sponsors usually do "pad the pockets" of those to pay for their mass-advertisement."
Wrong! Spending my early years doing parades, offshore races & marathons, think from the parade organizer's side on this one.
It is easier to hand someone in official capacity a handset & tell them "call me", than to communicate through your "shadow" (should be called a 'parrot', 'human roger beep' or 'repeater') ham. Hams just can't imagine losing their control. Nextel PTT adds a new twist to the fact WE are no longer unique & need to wake up to the facts!
As far as the Florida urban legend: look up "Wireless Priority Service" & figure out that 90% of the failure stories that cellphones/Nextels "didn't work" mentioned "had a good signal, just wouldn't connect". It is no mystery that WPS was enabled in Florida to manage site/call loading with priority needs being first!
This is only a preview of things to come...
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by W6YB on November 13, 2004
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This is truely sad. I worked at the Rose Parade every year since I got my license in 2001. I had a great time every year and was truely amazed at how hams helped-out in such a large scale operation, and at how the hams were truely accepted as a part of the Rose Parade team.
I heard rumors earlier on this year that hams might not be apart of the Rose Parade operations, and I heard it again several nights ago. However when I went to the Tournament Of Roses Radio Amateurs (TORRA) website (www.torra.us), I saw that plans were on the way. Thus, I assumed the rumors were wrong and sent an email saying I could volunteer . . . I now know why I haven't received a response.
I'm mostly disappointed, however, because several of my friends wanted to join in helping out this year. I started a ham radio club at my High School that I go (it's the Culver City High School A.R.C., KG6RRR), and we have a number of kids in the club. I like to invite them (whether licensed or not) to come along to these, public service, events. Last year (the first year of the club) I brought along two friends (non-licensed) to help out, and they were both amazed. One of them now has his license, but they both wanted to come again this year. Although this year, an additon kid wanted to come along and see how ham radio is involved in such a large scale operation . . . but I guess all plans are over :( Truely a sad day for me to hear this news . . . but maybe, just maybe, next-year something might happen. The kids in the club will be sadden to hear this . . .
Until then, I'll invite them to the Los Angeles Marathon, also like I did last year. And to anyother event that I hear of.
73,
Andrew W6YB
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by W6YB on November 13, 2004
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. . . Another thing I wanted to mention. I won't be amazed if they won't be able to get hold of a number of officials at the parade, regardless if they have a Nextel or not. Over the years of volunteering at the Tournament of Roses I remember listening to, and handling, countless number of times where they tried to raise officials via the Nextels but just couldn't. It was in those situations that the hams had to help-out. Many times these officials just don't listen to the radio whether its because they have little or no training in radio, they don't listen, or they just don't care.
Just my 0.02 USD.
73, Andrew W6YB
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by WB2GTC on November 13, 2004
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A similar situation occured at a major event I participate in. One segment decided to go Nextel, this year they "decided" to invite us back.
What they will discover, apart from the difficulty the people who formerly had "shadows" will have in getting thru to the party they need to, is that they will have to stop what they are doing constantly to talk on the Nextel. The shadow makes communications simple- plus having the amateur infrastructure (Net Controls, different nets for different purposes,[ie: medical, logistics, vip, et al] not to mention the APRS and video mentioned) makes a big difference.
73's de George WB2GTC
ARES, RACES, SKYWARN, CAP
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by AE6IP on November 13, 2004
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> During 9/11 most of the nextel DC circuts were
> overloaded to the point of being usless.
Handling twice the number of phone calls that the system was designed for is a rather unique definition of 'useless.'
> In the koas that followed, ham radio was there,
> when needed as needed.
And what percentage of the 300 million phone calls dropped by the cell systems in the 24 hours following the impacts was handled by amateur radio operators?
9/11, if anything, highlighted the extent to which the communications infrastructure has outgrown the ability of amateur radio operators to act in replacement of it if it were to become unavailable.
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WB8RFB on November 13, 2004
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Bravo to the TORRA ham group for having the courage to vote in the manner in which they did and pull out of the event.
When you boil this situation down to its essential elements, it's obvious that the "welcome mat" was pulled out from under the radio clubs' feet. It doesn't matter if it was NEXTEL or the Tournament's board who initiated it. The message to the hams right now is very clearly, "we really don't need you anymore."
The bottom line is that no matter what you bring to the table, you can't force yourself onto groups where, for whatever reason, you are not wanted.
It's better to stand back, let them run the event the way they envisioned it with cell-phones and then see what happens. If it works flawlessly without hams, then we collectively need to re-examine our public service efforts and focus on areas where we can still provide an effective service.
If communications for the parade fall flat on its face or are less than planned, then the TORRA radio club can decide how they might (if they choose to do so) help fix the problems.
Forcing a point of view only serves to alienate others - and we could reasonably say this looking at it from either side of the issue. It's better to back off and let the facts of how it works without hams in 2005 speak for itself.
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by WA2FSO on November 14, 2004
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> During 9/11 most of the nextel DC circuts were
> overloaded to the point of being usless
"Handling twice the number of phone calls that the system was designed for is a rather unique definition of 'useless."
First, yes there was more phone calls than normal. But i was not refering to phone calls, i was refering to Direct Connect. Nextel lost several sites during 911, its system was overloaded as no one ever imagined a senerio lile Sept 11 . This was not direct at Nextel alone, but as a General statement.We all just happened to on the subject of Nextel.
> In the koas that followed, ham radio was there,
> when needed as needed
"And what percentage of the 300 million phone calls dropped by the cell systems in the 24 hours following the impacts was handled by amateur radio operators?"
This has nothing to do with Phone calls dropped, it was a statement that ham radio operators were there when need, to assist with whatever the public officials needed to there best ability.Period. Nobody was trying to replace the cellular industry. Health & Welfare,is what ham radio was used for.
"9/11, if anything, highlighted the extent to which the communications infrastructure has outgrown the ability of amateur radio operators to act in replacement of it if it were to become unavailable."
Agreeded, but the ham radio will never be a substitute to replace the communications infrastructure. All we can do as hams is to be there to assist as needed. And as the pool of Ham Operators Declines, we will be less able to assist.
I am not going to make this a soap box, but i think we all agree that as our ranks decline we are less effective in emergancies.
Why did i mention 9/11, i was there, i saw it first hand from a few blocks from ground zero, i saw the destruction, it is something i will never forget, nor will the images ever leave me. i still shed a tear or two when i go to NYC and see the changed skyline.
Several Local Hams perished during 9/11. It has affectted all aspects of life. Just my thoughts.
God Bless America
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by KG6AMW on November 14, 2004
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"Hey, Face it, in the country of Kalifornia, a Kalifornian can do anything he/she wants, which is usually different from all the rest of us, in spite of the risks. " Come on Larry, we all don't lead the Hollywood life style you see in the movies and on TV. Some of us are regular people.
KG6AMW
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by AE6IP on November 14, 2004
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> This has nothing to do with Phone calls dropped, it
> was a statement that ham radio operators were there
> when need, to assist with whatever the public
> officials needed to there best ability.Period.
> Nobody was trying to replace the cellular industry.
> Health & Welfare,is what ham radio was used for.
Yup. In the New York area, a small number of hams did a small amount of health and welfare. This is a good thing. However, when it is placed adjacent to claims that the cell system "failed", it stands out of proportion to reality.
The cell system didn't fail. Emergency communications didn't fail. Ham radio operators didn't save the day.
Let's keep our sense of perspective.
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by AE6IP on November 14, 2004
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> This has nothing to do with Phone calls dropped, it
> was a statement that ham radio operators were there
> when need, to assist with whatever the public
> officials needed to there best ability.Period.
> Nobody was trying to replace the cellular industry.
> Health & Welfare,is what ham radio was used for.
Yup. In the New York area, a small number of hams did a small amount of health and welfare. This is a good thing. However, when it is placed adjacent to claims that the cell system "failed", it stands out of proportion to reality.
The cell system didn't fail. Emergency communications didn't fail. Ham radio operators didn't save the day.
Let's keep our sense of perspective.
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by KA4KOE on November 14, 2004
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Yep. Let's see how the "civilians" can do it without training or experience in EMCOMM.
Be very interesting to hear about the end result.
P
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by W4JBB on November 15, 2004
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Folks,
This is nothing but management buying into the latest "gee-whiz" product. Someone commented about the "Nextel PTT." Ahem, before there was a Nextel, PTT was in wide use in the military.
I don't care what kind of call loading/management software you use, any kind of system that relies on a "cellsite" will suffer from queuing.
I remember during a December tornado a few years back, our iden system was completely useless to the power utility (for who the original system was stood up) because of all the police, ambulance, sheriff, fire, family, etc., etc. comms that were going on. Don't you think they also had problems communicating? You bet!
Let's face it, to most of the people out there, ham radio is still some old fella sitting in a cabin, sending morse code to some esoteric land that no one cares about.
We need to get off our asses and start marketing ham radio the way Nextel, Verizon, etc. market their wares. The ham radio operators who voted to skip the Rose Parade gave up without a fight. Sorry, I just don't subscribe to that belief.
73,
de Joel
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by NX7U on November 15, 2004
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I think WB8RFB said it best...essentially, the "market" will decide. If Nextel (or any other commercial system) works "better" for the event, then if event comms are important to "us", "we" might need to rethink how to apply "ourselves" to that. If the commercial guys don't work better, that's even more of an opportunity to leverage the ability of amateur radio as applied to events of that sort.
Either way, there is opportunity. Just need to keep the eyes open.
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by W9WHE-II on November 15, 2004
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"Negociations broke down".
What was it that the Hams wanted that they did not get?
I would like to hear THAT PART of the story.
W9WHE
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RE:
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by W9WHE-II on November 15, 2004
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On poster writes:
"Yep. Let's see how the "civilians" can do it without training or experience in EMCOMM".
Yikes.
I know of few things more exaggerated than the value of "EMCOMM" training to events like a parade. Anyone that has ever monitored such "doughnut & coffee" communications knows this.
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by W7STS on November 15, 2004
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Aside from the political reasons for the withdrawal, I suspect in some way the organizers were frustrated by the support they received in the past. It maybe some complex interpersonal issue, or just having extra bodies under foot which was the killed the event. As we look at this issue from a distance, it's easy to tell the world that ham radio is god's gift to event communication, but we aren't have in this forum no visibility to the actual or perceived issues at hand. In either case, it's a shame that the hams and the organizers were unable to come to an agreement.
One aspect of using the nextel system that will be somewhat interesting to see how it works out will be the use of a common channel with people without directed net experience. In my participation in many public service events I have seen first hand how well an event can be run with a directed net and a "good" net controller. Information that would have to be repeated 10 times or more generally only get repeated a couple times, and in many cases issues can be resolved before they become problems.
One can hope the parties find a way to resolve their differences, because as so many others have pointed out an event of this size is an excellent place to hone our emcomm skills.
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by K4JRB on November 15, 2004
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Sounds just like the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. The cell phone people did not want hams anywhere near the events. Unlike Seoul and Barcelona it took a real effort to even get an official olympics station on the air...and it was no where near any official olympic sites.
Some one needs to send some material on cell phone system failures to the Rose Bowl parade Committee. You can bet Nextel won't!
Dave K4JRB
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by AE6IP on November 15, 2004
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> I don't care what kind of call loading/management
> software you use, any kind of system that relies on
> a "cellsite" will suffer from queuing.
Any system that relies on sharing resources, say, for instance, a ham operator, will suffer from queuing.
Of course, a cell tower can handle slightly more traffic than an NTS operator.
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by KA4KOE on November 15, 2004
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I'm sure that the Rose Bowl parade is a couple of magnitudes more complex than just a "coffee and donuts" affair.
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by K7LA on November 15, 2004
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Event administrators like TOR in Pasadena forget that volunteer hams always have a choice whether to sacrifice their free time and participate. We should move on.
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on November 16, 2004
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A bunch of fat, non bathing know-it-alls who try to act like they are in charge and that the event can't go on without them is what making most of these free coffee and donut sucking fools unwelcome anymore.
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by AE6IP on November 16, 2004
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> I'm sure that the Rose Bowl parade is a couple of
> magnitudes more complex than just a "coffee and
> donuts" affair.
It's just another parade.
It's bigger than most, but no more complex.
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by KA4KOE on November 16, 2004
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So when did you help out the good folks there?
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by N2HBX on November 16, 2004
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It's not a matter of the event can't go on without the ham operators. It's that it goes smoother with the hams around to assist.
We have had some organizations in this area that for one reason or another decided that they didn't need our participation anymore. Change of command in their organization or whatever. But more often than not, they come back and ask us to help them out again, which we do gladly. We don't try to make it into a "we told you so" situation and hold it over their heads. It's all about attitude.
We seem to be an unusual case here in Central Florida. We do a lot of work with the Multiple Sclerosis Society in this area (2 Walks and 1 Bike event a year). Many of the same volunteers from MS and the ham operators work these events and have built up good relationships between the groups. Whenever there is a change in the management at the local MS, they have probably come up through the ranks as volunteers so they know us and what we can do and they pass this on to the new people that come on board. Sure, they carry cell phones, but they rely on the hams for the bulk of the comms. It's a matter of knowing your customer and your customer knowing you.
People in this area know better than to rely on the Nextels. Some of the Nextel sites in this area went down before the hurricanes even got here. Even in good weather there are spots where smoke signals would be more efficient. In contrast, as someone pointed out earlier, the Verizon system worked very well.
My advice to the Pasedena hams: enjoy the parade this year. You may be working it again next year.
Larry, N2HBX
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by AC3P on November 16, 2004
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I have helped organize comms for a couple of events that I thought could be done just as well using FRS. But the organizers wanted hams there.
If on the other hand the organizers of an event say they can handle it without hams. No problem. More time to work DX or ragchew or build something. Public service is just one aspect of amateur radio.
To the TOR hams: Sit back. Relax. Go on the air. Or even watch the parade. If NEXTEL works, fine. If not, I'm sure you will be getting a phone call.
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by K0RGR on November 16, 2004
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I'm particularly disappointed by this news because the TOR hams have always been among the leaders in trying to use new ham technologies to support their event.
We support many local events here, and I think it would be more difficult to do that via cellphone in most cases, but maybe not impossible. I've worked some big parades - I cannot imagine doing it via cellphone! I was one of the net control operators for a Cinco de Mayo parade in San Jose many years ago, and I just remember being insanely busy, with constant requests from various parade officials needing information. Now, someone will say "here's the phone number - good luck".
Marty - I heard the BBC radio program on the ham activity after 9/11 and they had a very different opinion than you do. There were actually hams sent out with fire units to provide basic communications in the first days. Of course there were hams at all the shelters, over 200 hams, handling H+W, but they were doing more than that, because the city's own systems were essentially gone. I guess Nextel wasn't available?
We need to be evaluating where we should and shouldn't be of service. We should not be where we really aren't needed or wanted. And we should be where we are. We should be building new ways of providing services like the common email system that ARRL is touting (with or without PACTOR).
Otherwise, we can just crawl into our rocking chairs and wait for the little birds to cover us with leaves...
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by K4JF on November 16, 2004
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<A bunch of fat, non bathing know-it-alls who try to act like they are in charge>
We were talking about Ham Radio Operators, not that other band users.
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by W0FM on November 16, 2004
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There is a major issue here that I've yet to see surface in this discussion. The Nextel "Direct Connect" walkie-talkie like service is primarily designed to be a "one-to-one" form of communication. While Nextel CAN set up Group Calls (think one-to-many and many-to-one like we amateurs communicate) for X number of units, the Group Call concept eats up a great deal of Nextel's RF resources allowing that type of operation. Think of the number of Nextel sites that would have to be "lit up" in order to give one message, one time, to 50 scattered Nextel users at an event. When that happens, the other Nextel users (who use their phones as common cell phones) go crazy as access is often denied because the system is busy doing a "Group Call". Nextel has problems doing "one-to-many" Group Calls because of this.
I have seen this in my business as events attempt to replace two-way radio (commercial or amateur) with Nextel's Direct Connect. Most of the time, the user must scroll through a programmed list of other users on his Nextel unit and "Direct Connect" with him, one-on-one. The others are often left in the dark on potentially valuable information.
The efficiencies gained by everyone being able to monitor all the on-the-air traffic are commonly overlooked by event committees appointed to dump traditional two-way radio for Nextel or cell phones. It's only a matter of time until the organizers see the light. Hopefully, the TOR hams brought this to light during their negotiations.
73,
Terry, WØFM
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 16, 2004
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AE6IP - I have to agree with you 100%... I also am so tired of hearing that the ONLY communication that worked during 9/11 and every hurricane after that was HAM.. its Urban Legend stories like that that upsets people...
I don't see why the hams are so upset -- Nextel cellphone/HTs are no different then some guy walking behind a person carrying an HT -- just one operates at a higher, clearer, more efficient frequency then the other... all the organizers did was get rid of the Amateur in the middle --
anyway -- NOW the Amateurs are free to be on standby during the parade in case another hurricane/earthquake/typhoon hits and the entire world looses all comms and they can fire up their 2meters and save the world....
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by K6GEP on November 16, 2004
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I have been a member of TORRA for about 15 years. I do
not speak for TORRA, and I know nothing of the negotiations. Here is my speculation:
From what I could glean from the article, I think the
TOR wanted to cut about 50% or more of the TORRA operators from the event. I would guess that my position, which was a location along the parade route
would have been cut. My guess is that TOR wanted to
keep the APRS and ATV operations, but TORRA's position
was that if you want APRS and ATV, then you need to keep
the voice ops. I think part of it was aesthetics. If
you are ever in Pasadena, try to get a tour of the Tournament House AKA Wrigley Mansion. It is a beautiful
historic house, and I guess they felt that radios and
computers just don't fit in.
My guess is that TOR will survive OK with the NEXTELS,
but like someone said, the group (broadcast) feature will be missed. The APRS and ATV were invaluable, and
I'm sure TOR will come crawling back to TORRA next
year for that capability.
Just my 2 cents.
Tim
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by K6LCS on November 16, 2004
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>>Bravo to the TORRA ham group for having the courage to vote in the manner in which they did and pull out of the event...
Hmmm...I see this as a major marketing and public relations failure on the part of amateur radio.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS
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by K4JF on November 16, 2004
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<Nextel cellphone/HTs are no different then some guy walking behind a person carrying an HT -- just one operates at a higher, clearer, more efficient frequency then the other... all the organizers did was get rid of the Amateur in the middle>
Actually, no, they are completely different. Nextel is a cell phone. It operates through the cell phone system, subject to the same limitations as all other cell phones. Just because it sounds like an HT doesn't make it one.
An HT operating direct or through a repeater is not dependent on any other source of equipment.
They look the same on the surface, but are completely different underneath... where it counts.
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by N6CRR on November 16, 2004
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Isn’t this another look at the relevancy of Amateur Radio to parades/natural disasters/special events? Also is this a harbinger of the future when facing BPL, sell of spectrum or any other number of issues when the relevancy of amateur communications is called into question by other, some would say more advanced, technologies.
Consider the two positions.
On the one hand, free labor in the part of the TORA folks, supplying voice communications, SSTV camera work and APRS. From everything I have heard, the TORA folks were first class, hard working and made a real impact on smooth operation of the TOR parade. I’ve listened in to their nets on New Years day and they do run a very good tight ship which contributes to the running of TOR.
On the other hand, a major sponsor (NEXTEL) will be providing voice communications services and dollars to organizing committee. NEXTEL will make darn sure that the “white suits” with be shown in as many TV shots as possible, talking on NEXTEL phones, and they will get their money’s worth as will TOR get it’s sponsorship money. Maybe a few years down the road, NEXTEL will charge for their service, and not provide a sponsorship package, the shoe may be on the other foot then.
It’s a hard thing, but relevancy of anything, including amateur radio, is always questioned when it comes to the bottom line. After all, they don’t make buggy whips any more do they?
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WN3VAW on November 16, 2004
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Patience, patience, and keep TORRA together for a few years yet.
Several years ago, the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix replaced the amateur radio communications net with rented (not donated, incidently) commercial HT's. Part of the reason was internal politics, I was told, and part of it was insurance related (this was the year after the one & only fatality when a driver, due to a medical problem, drove off course and into a tree). The few amateurs who were retained were to provide a secondary net to back up the security staff... allegedly an attempt to keep us involved to keep flack down, and allegedly to last only a year before we were phased out altogether.
Nice plan... and it failed spectacularly. The "security net" amateurs during Saturday practice resumed duty as the race net on Sunday... because corner captains and related staff were too busy running things to figure out how to use the radios. Plus they had commercial repeater problems and so forth.
Now, that was many moons ago, and Nextel at the Rose Bowl is hardly the same as running vintage race cars at top speeds around a city park. But my point is that should the Rose Bowl folks find out the hard way that Nextel's PTT system has failed them, don't be surprised if the amateurs get invited back in a year or three.
Oh yes... amateur radio has been providing PVGP course communications ever since, and no one is even thinking of suggesting that we be replaced. (And it doesn't hurt that we've got some friends on the committee, including a couple of licensed folks!)
73
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by VA7VEC on November 16, 2004
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For the people that don't believe that events include emergency communications, this is what ONE group of hams dealt with in a four or five year period (from the www.amateurradio.ca web site - EP01 Event ICS Master article):
& A gas leak occurred in a building surrounded by several tens of thousand spectators. Total event attendance was 350,000 - 400,000 so the danger was tremendous.
& A major fire occurred in a building on a marathon route where moving the route would have affected international standings and prize money.
& Sudden weather change (sunshine on asphalt) resulted in multiple heat stroke victims (life threatening) in the crowd and hundreds of cases of heat exhaustion.
& Large tree falling on the crowd during an event.
& Medical emergency occurring on next block to event but off the site and event medical personnel ¼ block away.
& Evacuation of several thousand people from exhibition grounds due to risk of explosion at nearby building fire. (Evacuation was about 30,000 people).
& Train crossing and blocking race route despite arrangements made for no trains to cross.
& Parade participant (child) run over by float.
& Police incident in building beside parade route, blocking route.
& Wind change blows fireworks and hot ashes over thousands of spectators at fireworks festival.
& International Triathlon cancelled due to heavy rain and hail and severe thunderstorms that developed suddenly during the race.
& A priority police issue resulted in net control station having to move location. WHILE MOVING NET, a multiple stabbing occurred with four patients, 2 critical and the only first aid on scene being the ham radio operator. Police fire and ambulance were unable to immediately respond through the crowd. (Note: Two of the patients arrived with no pulse and no blood pressure, but both were resuscitated due to the efforts of the ham radio operator who was later commended by the police).
& 5 people drowned and 11 people rescued after boat hit by tug during evening event. First notification to the ambulance service was through the hams at the rescue centre, the EOC and with the police.
& Heart attack on parade route required an ambulance to be brought in against the flow of the parade.
& Heart attack on parade route required the rescue truck to be pulled out of the parade, through the crowd and around back to the patient.
Every one of those was communicated either wholly or partially through amateur radio. This list was put together to show the types of things that DO occur when providing communications during public events. What is your plan of action for communications with event officials and emergency responders when each of the above incidents occur. It is part of an article recommeding using incidnet command to organize events communications.
Event Communications IS emergency communications as well as logistic communications for the organizers.
Emergencies do occur - often.
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WA6CDE on November 17, 2004
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What you all are missing here... its all about the money ... The RP management is the biggest bunch of management phonies ever were. We tried using nextel on a assignment and we had the biggest CB jam you could imagine. Are these people going to use only one frequency... think about it... how many different inputs do the hams use during the parade.. now think... all that on one cell phone.. wow... better back 'em up boys with all 23 chanels of CB... because when you get everyone involved in a breakdown... guess what breaksdown next... it will be worse than a pile up on a rare dx signal... grin...
Torra is right... let 'em fall on their own sword if the RP management and committee is that greedy... they take very good care of themselves... no one is more improtant than them... after all each of them probably get to keep the phone till next year .. free of charge ... with lots of rollovers... natch... while nextel gets to have the free PR.. broadcast world wide... as a sponsor... no less... and how much is that worth... definatelly bed fellows... in the business world...
Years ago when KTLA and Dick started the system... hams were a important but, kept in the background part ... service without reconigition... now the parade is so commercial... I don't even watch it on the TV anymore...
its not the peoples parade... its a bunch of commercial ventuers... what next arnolds political anouncment for president as a float....sic... whatever...
Yep.. its all about the money boys...and girls... remember that... when they say .. sponsored by... I say its about time that hams be reconized also... no wonder no one wants to volenteer anymore... when they donate their equipment, time and education.. while the golden jerk that is off next to 'em in the white suit.. giving the orders.. is getting paid big bucks...eating at fancy free banquets...and driving a new donated car... for what.... think he would be their if he didn't get the perks... like..duhhhh... his view of a ham radio operator is not one of grandure... but, rather some nerd who plays with wires and lives in a shack... as the late Rodny said... ya just don't get no respect... hmmmmm...
I have no doubt that the system will fail...from personal experiances in the field... no matter how much money nextel throws at 'em... I'd suggest that everyone fire up their cell phone during the RP.. just to help 'em out... but, they will probably lock the grid so that only their system works ...you can always make your un-improtant emergency call later after the event...according to them... oh and here is your nextel rate increase...after all they do have to keep the blimp up also... grin...
remember its all about the m o n e y
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on November 17, 2004
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I read an article here one time about a bus crash with about twenty passengers on it, none seriously injured, dozens of police, fire and rescue personel, all with working communications by the way, who were called there by cell phone and already on the scene, the media was on it's way there too and so were about 30 local ARES goons.
30 operators on the scene, plus net control, woo-woo! (siren), an amateur and a half per passenger, not to mention all the serious and professional emergency personel. Pretty ridiculous.
You people need to get over yourselves, it's not WWII again. But if you need to still feel important, prove how useful and necessary you still are, nationwide I think they still need "mall spies" at the shopping malls "woo-woo"! for the Christmas holidays.
Me, I finally got a new tower up after surviving two hurricanes and I'll be on HF doing real amateur stuff. You guys stay off the HF bands and out of my way okay, play rescue wannabees.
73 & don't forget your vests and badges
de
The eHam Guest
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by W9WHE-II on November 17, 2004
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.
HAMS BACKED OUT....WHY?
The article reads:
"But negotiations with the radio amateurs broke down Sunday, and the radio amateurs' board voted to back out of the Jan. 1, 2005, parade"
The HAMS backed out of the deal. The real question is WHY? What did hams want that they did not get?????
W9WHE
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on November 17, 2004
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>>>The real question is WHY? What did hams want that they did not get?????<<<
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm sure there was a place for both but there would need to be compromises and certain positions would not be needed. Ham radio and cellphones used together but no, I'm sure the hams did not want to make any compromises, used the "it's always worked this way for us" and "NEXTELS are stupid and unreliable".
Read the posts above and this idea seems most likely.
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 17, 2004
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""HAMS BACKED OUT....WHY?""
Maybe they told them that they would have to take showers and wear clean clothes....
-----
and VA7VEC -- you sent this long list of things that ham radio comms was used for during emergencies... I bet you that every single moment of every single day that cellphones do 100000000 X more life saving then some wannabe with a 2m HT....
----
Last night we had a pretty good storm come through here and I turned on the 2meter to listen ... oh my god... it was like listening to the comedy channel ... every little intersection that one of them came to that had a little bit of water over it they acted like it was a raging river ... I am sure the 911 operator that net control was calling every 2 minutes finally told them not to call anymore...
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 17, 2004
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Also -- for security its much better with NEXTEL - you can't jam a cellphopne very easy at all ...
now with a 2m HT a bad guy or just a jerk could get on and make things happen .. they could yell... jam... say there is a fire somewhere.. say someone is having a heart attck.. etc etc....
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 17, 2004
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Also -- for security its much better with NEXTEL - you can't jam a cellphopne very easy at all ...
now with a 2m HT a bad guy or just a jerk could get on and make things happen .. they could yell... jam... say there is a fire somewhere.. say someone is having a heart attck.. etc etc....
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WA6CDE on November 17, 2004
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ever notice the people who don't use their call sign and leave messages in a negative fashon... on the forum... how come.... they are hidding... ??? somthing phyco about them... ??? what ya wana bet they jamm too... because clearly from how they express themselves... to others.. it appears that no one is more important than them... huh... beating up on other hams is a great way to make friends... sic... and maybe that is why they don't want to use their call sign... so that others will still talk to 'em... on the radio... not knowing their true color... smile...
Quite frankly... I think it be better to have a overkill in help than no one at all show up to help...
I got a nice reply from Jeannie Nordland at Torra who sent this message...
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you but things have been a bit hectic.
Attached is a PDF document that is the letter going out to all TORRA members.
Please feel free to distribute the file as is. We hope this will stop the rumors and misinformation currently circulating!
Thank you,
Jeannie Nordland
TORRA Steering Comm.
torra@torra.us
I invited her to post the file here but, she didn't have a way to make a PFD file attachment... so you may have to go to the web site and root around... sorry...
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by K6LCS on November 17, 2004
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>>...she didn't have a way to make a PDF file attachment...
What does her Statement state? Tell us!
Clint Bradford, K6LCS
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by VA7VEC on November 17, 2004
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Yes, Ghostrider, you are right that cell phones do 1000 x more calls. That is what they are there for. However, amateur radio does a good job of coordinating among agencies in unique event locations.
If you happen to have a phone list that would provide the phone number for the police command post, the lifeguards in the building being evacuated and the event organizer and can call all three at the same time and alert every other key organization at the same time, you are a miracle worker. Also, I've been in the command post and answering the phones suddenly takes a much lower priority than before. Also, the phones tend to be used quite a bit by the authorities which substantially reduced the effectiveness of anyone else trying to reach them. I've also watched cell phones die during major evacuations because of extended use. Suddenly, a cell phone with a dead battery doesn't seem to be as effective anymore, does it?
Ghostrider, you obviously haven't done much work with major events as you continually underestimate its effectiveness. A new parade chairman once said "I was told you guys were good. I had no idea how good." When amateurs know what they are doing, they can be a VERY effective and useful form of communications for specific types of purposes.
On the other hand, despite your hyperbole, you are correct that for most communications, people are more effectively served and are more comfortable with phones. As well, there are some events where I cringe at the role and training of the amateurs. Amateur radio should be more professional in our approach to community events. An amateur that doesn't understand the limitations OR ADVANTAGES of amateur radio is going to cause problems or be in the way.
One of the huge advantages of amateur radio as compared to phones is that everyone DOES hear the same conversation at the same time. In one case, the police asked amateur radio to assist with locating some missing utility company vehicles involved with a possible terrorist incident (1999 arrest in Washington State). One ham overheard the conversation between the police and the net station and was able to provide detailed information that the police had been unable to obtain for hours. While that may be an extreme example, it did occur. How many times during events have people overheard net conversations and been able to provide the answer or the information needed? You can't phone every person for every question posed during an event. That doesn't mean amateur radio solves all the problems. But every time amateur radio is able to assist, that issue is no longer a problem. Organizers never say "The amateurs saved the day by taking care of that issue/participant/problem". That doesn't mean the efforts were useless or unappreciated.
You also miss one of the areas where you could have really scored some points about the effectiveness of amateur radio. Amateur radio does a generally poor job of critiquing events with organizers afterwards and then applying those critiques to next years' planning. Have you ever heard of hams doing a customer satisfaction survey? Have you ever heard of hams giving a way for organizations to provide anonymous feedback? A thank you letter from the organizers is not a knowledgeable critique of our effectiveness. It is simply a thank you letter.
You obviously haven't talked to the organizations that do value the specific advantages of ham radio. Why are the hospital, police, Salvation Army, Red Cross, municipal emergency management and emergency social services training hams and putting amateur stations in my area? Because we have proven to be useless at all public events?
You also reduce the effectiveness of your arguments by not giving specifics. Sweeping generalizations may make you feel good, but may not be true. It's like the Incident Command Instructor who warned "Emergency Personnel will abandon their posts". Yet disaster researchers recently stated "There has not been one case of emergency responders abandoning their post during disasters..." in any of the debriefing reports, after-action reports or government reports. It may feel good to say it, but what you say may not necessarily be true.
I would love to see more discussion of what amateurs are best at during events, where we fall down, and how we can be better organized and more professional if we are going to provide emergency and logistical communications. Yet doing a better job doesn't mean we always do a bad job.
Amateur radio has PROVEN to be a very effective and critical component of emergency response as proven by the local, regional and state/provincial events that we have participated in. That's why we get asked back.
Robert
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by W0FM on November 17, 2004
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Robert-
You make an excellent point about asking the event coordinators to critique our performance in the days after the event. I doubt that most ham organizations have a plan for that and it makes such good sense.
And, you are also correct that a "thank you" note doesn't mean that we have no room for improvement.
Nicely stated all around.
73,
Terry, WØFM
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by KF6ZLB on November 17, 2004
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At
www.torra.us/id14.html
is the following:
"Dear TORRA members,
"We first want to apologize for the rumors and misinformation that has been circulating prior to our having an opportunity to officially inform you of what’s happening with TORRA. Please rest assured that there have been no knock down drag out fights and nobody dumped anybody! We have a long standing relationship with the Tournament of Roses and both organizations wish to maintain that relationship.
"As most of you know, there have been many changes (some major, some minor) over the last couple of years; some dealing with technology, the way Tournament utilizes it, and TORRA’s part in it. Some changes having to do with increasing space demands from Commercial Media covering the Parade, some changes that should have been made in anticipation of the above changes that were not made.
"At the end of last year’s event, all TORRA owned equipment had to be removed from the old Net Control and ATV storage facilities because of reallocation of building space by Tournament. This year TORRA and Tournament personnel did sit down to take a long hard look at our roles and the changes that were required. Top most on the agenda was the Net Control location change, followed by Net Control’s antenna tower move and/or redesign requirements. We were also dealing with a relocation of the motor home, recovering the stored TORRA property, finding new central storage for it and desperately seeking someone with knowledge and experience, willing to chair the ATV operation. Unfortunately, as we discussed options, made plans, dealt with continuing changes, etc., time grew shorter and shorter. It became clear at the Steering Committee meeting on Nov. 7th that there was still too much to do and not enough time to do it, for a successful operation this year.
"We informed Tournament of our inability to provide the outstanding service they are accustomed to receiving and agreed to sit down together early after the New Year to restructure our role and the communication services we provide. For the 2005 event, there will be some TORRA Amateur Television provided. Our Technical Operations team, freed of many other aspects of the operation, is consolidating their efforts toward that goal.
"All TORRA members on the current roster will remain on the mailing list along with assignments. Provided a particular assignment remains in the restructuring, the current member will have first option on it. If you have already paid dues for this year, your refund check is enclosed. We hope you will all remain loyal members of TORRA and accept this situation as a day off WITH Pay!
"We hope to be in touch with you early next year with information on our discussions with Tournament and a general membership meeting.
"Happy Holidays, see you next year!
"TORRA Steering Committee"
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 17, 2004
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WA6CDE
The reason that many of us don't give our callsigns is for security reasons. There are allot of not so stable folks it seems on this board and about a year ago some jerk sent a stupid letter to my house saying that my days were numbered and he was going to "get me" after looking up my true callsign and seeing my FCC mailing address... of course i simply took the letter to the police and they actually got the moron who lived in California. I pressed charges but he pleaded no-contest to a misdemeaner and got a $100 fine. The postal service on the other hand is taking a more serious approach with this guy and is still looking into the complaint -- so thats why i tell everyone its never a good idea to use your call sign.. you never know what jerkof you are going to piss off..
Also though -- I would bet that many of the callsigns that are used on this forum isn't the true callsign of the person actually using it.
How do we know that you are actually WA6CDE???
I have talked to several folks lately on 10 meters that I figured out are No Code techs that simply have just decided to "steal" someones callsign and start talking ... what are the odds of them getting caught -- ZERO...
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 17, 2004
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VA7VEC -- Robert -- I know my comments are going to come across like a jerk and I apologize for that -- My wife a few years ago worked for the city of NY and was heavily invloved in the NYC marathon in 2002-- they did not use many hams that year .. I heard that some of the ham clubs had asked to participate more heavily and the reason the city said no was becuase of previous years overhead - high maintnenace of the hams -- they wanted vests, tents, power lines, vehicles, etc etc etc.. i mean the list went on and on... eventually they did tell a couple of clubs that you can help but you get nothing but a letter from the city saying thanks.. (In fact even the clubs that didn't help got a Thank You letter just becuase they were told no)
---
anyway ..
"A new parade chairman once said "I was told you guys were good. I had no idea how good." When amateurs know what they are doing, they can be a VERY effective and useful form of communications for specific types of purposes."
But obviously something you guys did changed his mind!
-----
"Amateur radio does a generally poor job of critiquing events with organizers afterwards and then applying those critiques to next years' planning. Have you ever heard of hams doing a customer satisfaction survey? Have you ever heard of hams giving a way for organizations to provide anonymous feedback?"
No -- and the reason being is that most ham clubs thinks that the activity that they are supporting should be HONORED that they are there and getting feedback would mean that they, the ham club, were working for the activity instead of the other way around...
------
It just sounds like they got tired of your high maintanance ... and I am sorry they are doing this to you guys ... BUT (let me put the jerk hat back on) .. they had problems with relocation of the motor home, recovering the stored TORRA property, finding new central storage for it and desperately seeking someone with knowledge and experience, willing to chair the ATV operation. To me that sounds like they were trying to say that "Holy cow you guys have made this so big and cumbersome that we need to end this now beofre the support gets bigger then the parade itself!!"... It also sounds like there was allot of inflexibility on the TORRA part as they discussed options, made plans, dealt with continuing changes, etc and it eventually became clear at the Steering Committee meeting on Nov. 7th that there was still too much to do and not enough time to do it, for a successful operation this year.
Sounds like your operation had just got to big and cumbersome and they figured enough was enough... I mean -- couldnt you use a local repeater tower instead !!!!
Bottom line is that I have Nextel phone for work. I can call several folks -- or just one -- or all of them at once, up to 50 at a time, once you set up your calling profile...
I see the Nextel walkie talkie phone being no different then a higher frequency HT.
Also I dont need a command post, antennas, a MOBILE HOME TRAILER!!! etc etc
Millions of people everyday use cell phones so there is no need to make the Rose Parade participants sound like they cant walk and talk at the same time and thus needs a shadow to call for them on an HT...
On a side note I am glad that the police found the missing truck .. but once again that had nothing to do with ham HT but with communication ... if all the guys had of had Nextel walkie talkies back then, then the truck would have been found just the same...
JAMMING is a major concern for these activities.. my Wifes company sponsors allot of Nascar events .. i listen to the freqs during the race and know that each crew has several freqs that they switch to during the race becuase there is always some idiot that has a modified HT that that will get on the race freqs and say things .. the racers usually just swich freqs and hope that the guy picks on someone else...
Bottom line it just sounds like the Rose Parade folks is bascially trying to find a nice way to say "Hey -- we like you -- but your too high maintenance" but didnt want to hurt any feelings... I mean you guys are setting up cumbersome towers, taking over rooms, etc etc and with NEXTEL phones there just is no overhead like that ...
Perhaps next year you can approach them with a smaller more efficient package ... but I bet after the pros at NEXTEL sets up everything for them then they will stay with NEXTEL...
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AE6IP on November 18, 2004
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Yes, a cell phone with a dead battery becomes useless. So too, an HT with a dead battery. Why is it so hard for some hams to admit that their systems are just as suseptible to failure as the systems they are criticising?
Everybody being on the same frequency can sometimes be a good thing. It can also, as when two problems need urgent attention from two different groups, be a bad thing. There's a reason why different nets are run on different frequencies at many events.
Amateur radio operators can, and often do, provide excellent event support. But what many seem to have missed, is that they're no longer the only ones able to do that; and, as often as not, ham event support has its share of problems.
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by VA7VEC on November 18, 2004
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Ghostrider, don't worry about coming across as a jerk. I even agree with some of your comments! I sometimes take shots at hams and have them come back and say "Thank goodness someone is willing to bring that out into the open."
This parade situation is very sad and I've seen it happen in the past with other groups. Sometimes hams (and other volunteer organizations) become VERY attached to events and sometimes taking a step back is good for everybody. I know that St. John Ambulance wouldn't pull out of one of my region's big events because they didn't want to "lose" it. They should have - they were being treated like schmucks while the event paid the ambulance service $40,000 a night to have the ambulances sit beside the event rather than in the halls - even though they would have to respond to any 911 call from the event whether they were there or not. Sorry, no donation for the volunteers to provide water, Band-Aids, minor treatments (95% of all incidents on site) and gas/insurance for their five vehicles.
Some groups are high maintenance. But this is true of most volunteers. I think ham radio often feels singled out, but these days all volunteers want to be fed, get a shirt, get some recognition, get parking beside the event, get to bring the family..... There is also an element of responsibility - if you are going to do ATV, you have a lot of equipment. You can't have it out in the rain, and all of a sudden you need the trailer. Perhaps the best option would be to say "You want the hams, we'll need a net control room, you want the APRS, we'll need an internet link, you want the ATV, and we’ll need a site trailer.....”
Part of the issue with maintenance comes down to the hassle with volunteers and what they will deliver. We're going to do a marathon. How many hams can you supply? "Don't know - we're volunteers". Can you guarantee a certain number? "Nope - we just have a rough idea." How many shirts do you need for your unknown number of volunteers? How many lunches? How many parking passes? I don't get the sense that a lot of ham groups would make any concrete guarantee of numbers - making it hard for organizers to guarantee that all our expectations can be met. My suggestion has always been to guarantee a minimum staff, add a few spots for extra coverage and then say to late volunteers "Sorry, you only get a shirt and parking pass if you were among the first x (number) of volunteers.
Although it is a little off topic - I had to laugh a bit at your comment on jamming. We had jammers at one event. We put everyone onto another frequency and left three hams to wail and moan about how the jamming was making the event impossible. The jammer never realized everyone had left the frequency except for our designated moaners! The other frequency stayed clear for the duration of the event. But jamming is not the fault of the volunteers. Why blame them for someone else's idiocy?
And AE6IP, you are absolutely right that ham radio is subject to all the other failings. For most events, hams have a spare battery whereas the public often don't. But phones are neither the best thing nor the worst thing for emergency communications. I watched an evacuation and nobody had they key phone numbers handy. Often, the numbers changed as people passed phones around, borrowed phones, lost phones and cell phones died. It was fascinating to see the major phone company bring in bags of phones - literally hundreds - and nobody could reach the people they needed. I suspect that the Nextel phones are no better - and no worse - as communications is never just hardware. It is procedure, training and organization as well. Hams have some awareness of those issues and some clubs are quite good. For any city using "line-load" to give priority to key phone lines - it doesn't always work. In this evacuation, they had to leave line-load off because everyone was generally using their personal cell-phones, not work numbers or distributed phones. Putting line-load on would have cut out a huge number of the emergency officials.
And commercial systems have their failings too. In one case, the commercial base radio for volunteer coordination (way better than using hams, right?) had wrong frequencies plugged in. All the volunteers floundered because no-one could reach the organizers until (gasp) modified ham equipment was used to cover the net control.
Thanks to everyone for reading my LONG posts. It's a subject that is near and dear to me and one I've had a fair amount of experience. I've said my piece and look forward to reading YOUR comments.
Robert
Formerly VA7VEC, now VA6EEE (as of today!)
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 18, 2004
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VA6EEE
Thx for the reply -- I do keep in mind that its very easy for me to set back and take pot shots at folks that are actually trying to do something... my old boss one time told me "Its better to make a mistake by commission then ommission"... meaning its better to make a mistake trying to do something instead of doing nothing...
Good luck for next year -- hopefully you guys and the TOR folks can meet at a compromise... I do see how there can be what we call at work as "mission creep" .. meaning that you plan for this and then you need that equipment to make this happen and that needs this power source that needs this trailer, etc etc and soon you are larger then life....
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by K6LCS on November 18, 2004
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>>...i tell everyone its never a good idea to use your call sign...
What a paranoid way to live...
>>...several folks lately on 10 meters that I figured out are No Code techs...
Yeah...We damned "no code techs" sure are a pain in your side, aren't we?
Clint Bradford, K6LCS / KAF3359
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by KE4IZA on November 18, 2004
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<A bunch of fat, non bathing know-it-alls who try to act like they are in charge>
Anyone notice a call sign? I didnt!
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by KI4CGZ on November 18, 2004
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"my Wifes company sponsors allot of Nascar events .. i listen to the freqs during the race and know that each crew has several freqs that they switch to during the race becuase there is always some idiot that has a modified HT that that will get on the race freqs and say things .."
I've been attending these events for 30 years and listening for the last 12. Haven't heard a jammer yet. Sometimes the track skybox caterer or a local cab company on the same commercial frequency, but not QRM.
BTW, NASCAR officials/scoring and the MRN/TV uplink frequencies never change. I would think they would be at least as attractive to jam.
Jamming is a good point though. Surely, someone has tried it by now. I wonder how TORRA dealt with it?
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WB8WOR on November 18, 2004
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To all the cellphone rah-rahs:
I remember on 9/11, our phones were useless in Bloomington INDIANA. People went into a panic, and started calling each other, telling them to watch the TV, or get in line for gas.
Same thing happened a year later during a tornado event. No cell towers came down, AFAIK, but no connections were available for about half a day.
People will overload the communications outside of the affected area too.
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AB0WR on November 18, 2004
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I've not worked in the cellular industry but I did work in the wireline industry for almost 30 years.
Two observations. Implementing line load controls is a scary thing. It required very, very high level approval to do so. The only time I was ever aware of it happening, I know an expensive lawsuit was filed by a person who could not contact emergency services to get help for her husband who had a heart attack and died. I never heard what we wound up settling for but I'll bet it was a healthy sum.
I am amazed that a company like Nextel would risk tying up their cell sites with non-emergency traffic for just the reason above. If a group call is going on tying up a cell site or if line load controls are implemented to allow high level calls to be made for purposes of coordinating something like a parade, they are liable to get sued for huge amounts of money if a citizen can't get ahold of emergency services in a life threatening situation. It would not suprise me to see a lawyer in this situation also go after the TOR as a deep pocket partner.
It's one thing to have emergency situations occur as because of an act of nature, it is another thing to cause it for advertisement purposes. I only pray that such a situation doesn't happen.
tim ab0wr
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WA6CDE on November 18, 2004
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GHOSTRIDERHF
Ahhh sure... we all are a figment of anothers imaginations here on the eham... hmmmm...
No problem... as others have already stated my point... and I do hope that you can get with the program without being like a bull in a china shop... but, different strokes for different folks... I once had a girlfriend that thought little space men from europe were out to abduct her... too... it made for a interesting but, very short time... after she made that statement... if all else fails... you still can have mr. smith and weson and his six friends for security... just try not to shoot the dog or cat... whatever... if you do you will never be politcally correct again... smile...
As to a trailer and equipment... clearly you have never been to a event which is coordinated... very similar to the tv trailers... you have a event official who calls the shots... and everyone else works the information in for him... We do the same when were on location... I have a group of techs.. who all do their jobs... one for sound, another for each camera... and from them I get to pick and choose which one I want to go out... or respond to... same with the hams and RP... if a float breaks down... the offical... makes the call... first to the operator... who contacts the float... for information... which also has a operator and/or dirver/mechanic... from this information... which is now the directors consern... he decided if the float needs a tow truck, mechanic or service...and in turn makes the call to another operator which does his work... all of which are what the other operators in the same van do... that are in direct contact with the service people... and yes their is even one for EMT which contacts the closest stationed team to respond... how many operations go on at one time... how many operators do you have... and how many positions have been designated... for each function... each can be instructed to do different thing..thus the need for different frequencies... while other things are going on at the same time... the offical does this from his command chair... one person knowing and controling what is going on all the time... like a general in his command post... sitting in back of the operators... giving and reciving information... directing and controling the operation... and these hams figure in promately as a key item to make it all happen... least it used to... and if you don't think it gets confusing .... have some float break down... stall or have to stop... at the same time have a marching band member twist an ankle... or get exhausted ... now add to this... a deliquent that is running out to floats and throwing water ballons...at the occupants... add to this.. a horse that is not behaving... due to the excitment... and needs a walker... ya it all happens... and if it can go wrong... usually does... which all falls to the one coordinating official lap... and you think nextel can do this...huh... got news for ya... works for a business when their is everyone listening.. and waiting their turn... but, in the heat of the excitment... there is no waiting... they all want to talk at the same time... and now what... but, can ham radio be replaced.. sure... at what cost... like I say... the RP is broadcast world wide... how much is it worth to nextel for free advertising... vs the hams who never got mentioned... nor paid... (oh ya maybe a t shirt.. and a chicken dinner... wow... that'll break the bank...)
Now just think... you want that to take place in some parking lot out in the open... the people around would be mad a hell for all the noise... as well as the director would be distracted... and not concentrating on his job... with all the yelling over the noise... sooooooo... I guess you need a place to have all this equipment and operations which are going on.. and a large van, or trailer... in their case a referbished motorhome... command center... that has all the necessary equipment from genarators to antennas and towers... built in... just might be a good idea... huh... so much for the equipment and storage...
Really... I am not mad at ya... but, rather would like to see you gain some experiance before you go making the kinds of statement... which could offend others... and lead up to... as you said.. someone wanting to do you in... from across the country... ya got nice friends their dude... hate to see your enmies...
Join in... and help... ham radio in emergencies is not a individual sport... its a team effort... and a lot like the military orginization... can work well...if its personel have the training and experiance through exercises... on a regular effort... during and after a event is not the time to start to learn what to do... and most hams who do think that they are helping... instead become part of the problem due to not enough listening... and too much air time... mainly between the ears... their ego gets insulted when someone asks them to standby... and they don't understand any of the system and/or operation... we all have our places... when a event happens... and should know what to do... and how to do it...
One of the OES people asked... are hams getting training to handle and be a team members if a event (natural) were to occur... saddly... I had to say no... the current ham has little or no training...(including understanding radio and electronics/commucations) and to rely on them helping in times of emergency at best is un-reliable...due to their abilitiy to preform over time.. which is true... (that should get some responses..huh)
You want to get ham radio back on track... get away from the individual... attitude and back to a group, club well trained and well oiled intelligent dependiable.. we know what to do.. have the training and you can count on us to help... attitude... right now were viewed as nothing more than a bunch of teenagers with candy store bought radios... out playing with 'em... and think they work off of FM...
Hams used to police their own... and not by breaking windows and stealing radios... but, rather by setting a example... rising above the crud... the illeagles you mentioned on 10 meters will go away... if hams get involved... and take interest in protecting what has been given to them... they (the illeagles) won't stay long if no one talks to 'em.. huh... otherwise... we are just a bunch of... Kids...
Ops... guess I got off track.. sorry... (the real WA6CDE) smile
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 18, 2004
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K6LCS
Actually I never said that the No Cod Techs were a pain -- in fact -- some of the best most porfessional contacts I have made on 10 meters are no cide...
My basic theory is that 10 meter radios are extrmely mobile, easy to purchase, cheap, and can go around the world easily -- and the odds of you getting caught are zero -- just take over someones call sign so that way if the person you are talking to actually types your name into a database it comes up with a real persons listing -- although its not you...
But I dont care if the person I am talking to is legal or not -- sort of like if you dont mind if I use my callsign or not talking to you here...
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 18, 2004
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K6LCS >>...i tell everyone its never a good idea to use your call sign...
""What a paranoid way to live... ""
---
Did you not read the fricking post as to why I did it ..
It stops being paranoid and starts being reality when someone sends threatening letter to your house saying they are going to do something to you and your kids simply becuase someone disagrees with your forum comments... I mean lets face it Silvert-- how do you know that someone isnt one day going to disagree with something you might say and send a package to Mira Loma becuase you disagreed with them.... its a crazy world out there and I advise everyone to use handles and not list their true FCC info...
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 18, 2004
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WB8WOR
But -- and its a big BUT -- if everyone of those folks had an HT that would have solved the problem???
NO
How many people can hit a cell tower at once -- the Houston Texas Nextel repeater can handle over 15,000 phone calls at once --
let me see -- my local repeater can handle ONE!!!
Stop comparing apples to oranges -- yes -- cell coverage in some areas was spotty -- but hell -- HT coverage was of no value at all to anyone...
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AE6IP on November 18, 2004
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> I remember on 9/11, our phones were useless in
> Bloomington INDIANA. People went into a panic, and
> started calling each other, telling them to watch
> the TV, or get in line for gas.
"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." -- Yogi Bera.
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AE6IP on November 18, 2004
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VA6EEE,
Why carry a spare battery when you can carry a spare cell phone, on a different network.
As for the phone numbers being out of date: if the numbers are out of date, so, probably are the names. If you don't know who to contact, not being able to contact them on an HT is not helpful.
congrats on the new call.
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by VA6EEE on November 18, 2004
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AE6IP,
You’re going to go to the organizers and suggest every one of them sign up for a second cell phone? I can just imagine the response to that suggestion! First, you are getting into the realm of what if….what if everyone in the world had ten cell phones with different companies. Secondly, if one cell phone system is overloaded or people don’t have the numbers then, a second cell phone is going to make any difference? Third, the specific advantage of amateur radio at events is they are tying together locations as well as specific people. Is it necessary the exact person at a location receiving the message (such as the operations center ) as long as the operations centre realizes there is a problem with the event. Surely there will be one person with the authority to make some decisions. A spare battery for hams doing events is a requirement and ham radio still does something cell phones don’t do.
I agree with your comment in a way. Large and medium companies affected by disasters have been able to recover more effectively with three or more internet service providers. You are on the right track, but your argument makes more sense when you say "Organizers should have an ALTERNATE communications system in case their one cell phone doesn't work".
Humans don’t have two cell phone providers. They seem to have enough fun grumbling about the service provided by one! I can only think of one emergency official I’ve dealt with in thirty years that has had two cell phone providers. He didn’t think it made any difference and was twice the hassle as he couldn’t answer two phones at the same time. It’s like a ham trying to monitor two nets at the same time –almost every ham in the world will tell you they’ve tried it – and it didn’t work!
My experience with large events is that cell phones generally don't work. I don't say they never work. People are comfortable with them and they work well during normal situations. During difficult situations during events problems become immediate and severe. Ham radio is an effective ALTERNATE form of communications during events, especially when cell phones don't work.
Does that make sense?
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AE6IP on November 18, 2004
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VA6EEE
I was making a joke at the expense of the ham blind spot that thinks that only hams are bright enough to carry spares.
And yes, surprisingly, if one cell system is overloaded in a particular region, switching to a second can make a difference. Especially in regions served by multiple carriers playing leapfrog.
Of course there are ways that hams can be useful in events, although almost all of them can be replaced by GMRS radios, and often by FRS (depending on distances involved,) and we're seeing more of that all the time.
But there's no magic that makes hams better, and I've got a bunch of very funny stories about ARS screwups at events -- like the one where the hams set up their command posts at the wrong intersections in the Santa Cruz mountains, and as a result, missed most of the Sequoia Century, and had a huge gap in their coverage of the rest.
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BIG SCREW UPS GET BIG SLAP ON BACK!
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by EHAM_GUEST_001 on November 19, 2004
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Over the years, I myself have volunteered for events with ARES although I've never been a member. I’ve just helped when they said they didn't have enough.
I've seen nothing but total screw ups, wrong stations answering the wrong calls, equipment not working, people arguing, etc., performance a 2 on a scale of 10.
But that's not what you hear at the next club meeting.
What you hear is how good everything went and boy we sure can't wait to do it again.
If hams are consistent about one thing, it's stroking their own egos and making legends of themselves that the non-ham public is just too stupid to recognize.
WOO! WOO! What's that? Oh no, It's the ARES emergency van with those big fat smelly old guys come to save the day!
HIDE THE DONUTS!!!
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by N6JSX on November 21, 2004
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But what you may not know is the Rose Parade "is" riddled with cut-throat politics! Even the HAM suport group had serious politics that left a bitter taste with many HAMs. To get into the HAM Rose parade group and move up the hollowed ranks - it was a who-ya-know environment, not how hard or how many years you worked the Rose parade. To become a White coater you had to do some serious sucking up, donations, or have good connections.
For over ten years I (and other T hunters) were out in the boonies supporting the Rose parade as a RDF "T"urkey Hunter - moving on any deliberate LID/jammer - typically we found them in less then 15 minutes (of course we knew the areas where suspect LIDs lived). The Jamming got so bad that the freqeuncies used for the Rose Parade HAMs had to be kept secret until they were in use the day of the parade - YES, there is that many SICK HAMs in LA. X-WB6JAC was not one of the LIDs.
Also be it known that HAMs started two days before the parade coordinating all the floats arriving or being put into position/order for the parade. They may get Nextel walkie-talkie phones but they will be missing the "manpower" that HAMdom gave for free - so they may have bit off more that they realize.
I DF'ed 5 "jamming" HAMs over those 10 years. I would call into Rose NET control to report my findings and MAYBE a local PD unit would be dispatched to talk to the LID, but the PD couldn't do much more than that. But at least the LID was not jamming while the police talked to them. Forget the local FCC - it was a holiday day they were off.
As the LA OOC all I could do was write the LID an OO Notice - however, the LID would publicly "over-the-air" wear it like a merrit badge of their LID'ness - right BUZ/UZS. The LA SM only cared about his 20m NET and was NO support to VHF/UHF or LID hunting - ARRL HQ played ostrich about any LA area jamming problems, we just gave up and went back to T hunting for sport.
I do not miss working the 36 hours of Rose parade!
Kuby, N6JSX /8
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by K6GEP on November 22, 2004
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Wow.
The TORRA website has a new update today that
says that the Tournament has even declined having
ATV particpate in the parade. Cutting people with
HT's and replacing us with Nextels is one thing, but
eliminating ATV is plain stupid. Shooting themselves
in the foot.
Tim
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by AE6IP on December 1, 2004
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Anybody have a follow up on how well the parade went without the hams?
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Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by WIRELESS on December 3, 2004
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Hams will probably never figure out how little importance they have in the world. Pathetic!
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RE: Ham Radio Operators to Skip Rose Parade:
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by K6GEP on December 7, 2004
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FYI - The Rose Parade is held on Jan 1.
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