My Opinion

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My Opinion

Alan Applegate (K0BG) on November 15, 2004
View comments about this article!

What is all this gossip about amateur radio dying? From the demeanor, you'd think the end of the world was coming. At last counting, the number of amateur radio operators in the United States exceeded 733,000, and by all accounts, still is growing. Worldwide, the estimated number exceeded 5 million, spurred on by the every-increasing number of nations who have eliminated Morse code as a license requirement. I suspect the United States will soon follow suit, the code pundits notwithstanding. However, it isn't the lack of code which will kill amateur radio as we know it, it is the lack of technical knowledge.

You have never needed Mensa-like mentation to join the ranks of amateur radio. But you did need a very good understanding of electronics, a good mathematical background, and the ability to read and write Morse code at five words per minute or faster. All of this took a strong desire to succeed. It also fostered a desire to learn, and to maintain at least a modest level of sportsmanship and ethical camaraderie.

As it is now, the hobby has been dumbed-down to the point that an average 9-year-old can memorize the requisite question pool to pass an Extra class license in a week or two. A code speed of five words a minute is nearly as simple, and this requirement will soon go away.

All one has to do is listen across any amateur radio band to hear the results. Ungentlemanly-like conduct, copious amounts of profanity, splatter due to over compression and lack ALC, and all of this with great disregard for the rules and regulations, both written and assumed.

Rather than argue the merits of code versus no-code, or berate the poor new-comer for his lack of knowledge of the hobby, we should put our collective heads together to come up with a scheme to foster continued education among all of our members, new and old alike. While acting as Elmers on eham.net has its merits, it is no substitute for education. In other words, answering technical questions may be expedient, but it doesn't give the questionees the requisite knowledge to figure it out for themselves.

I wish I had the answers. I don't. Although I do feel the ARRL is doing a creditable job with their continuing education series, it is by no means enough. Perhaps these words will spur someone to suggest an alternative, which will better serve the knowledge pool that is so important to the longevity of our great hobby.

Alan Applegate, K0BG

www.k0bg.com

Member Comments:

This article has expired. No more comments may be added.

My Opinion

by KI4EZZ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I agree that 5 words per minute is simple. the problem is the code test is sent at 13-18 words per minute spaced at 5 words per minute. that is totally different that a simple 5 words per minute. I have been studying for my code test for about 3 months now. It may be easy for a 9 year old. but, it has this 42 year old torn up!! Regardless, I hope the F.C.C. does not do away with the cw requirement.

My Opinion

by W2NSF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Good points, all, but I can't help thinking if there was more self-policing done over the air waves and by elmers at the local levels, at least some of the discourtesy and poor operating practices could be eliminated. I don't think the lack of technical knowledge has as much to do with the problem. I think we hams simply need to help each other out when appropriate by (courtesly) pointing out technical errors and bad operating practices.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W9WHE-II on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"However, it isn't the lack of code which will kill amateur radio as we know it, it is the lack of technical knowledge"

I could not agree more.
If ARRL gets its way, it won't be necessary do show that you understand how to assemble, operate and troubleshoot a basic HF station. Judging by many of the questions here....ie, "do I really need radials for my vertical" and "why does my G5RV have a high SWR on 17 meters"....we already have many hams that don't understand even the basics of HF communications. That's a problem!

After all, the only thing that seperates us from CB is the the standards. Take away the standards, and we are just CB with 1500 watts. Good buddy!

W9WHE

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Great points. However, I have to comment on this one particular:

>>As it is now, the hobby has been dumbed-down to the point that an average 9-year-old can memorize the requisite question pool to pass an Extra class license in a week or two. A code speed of five words a minute is nearly as simple, and this requirement will soon go away.
<<<

Dumbed down compared to what era? In the current November CQ, p. 16 is a great interview with Jim Wiley, KL7CC. He is the new chair of the NCVEC question pool committee. There is an excellent view regarding the current state of HAM radio, but the most interesting is the take on this so called dumbing down of the questions and direction of licensing. In 1958 the ARRL License manual was aprox 4 pages, yep 4 PAGES in length.

I also like is view that the point of the exams is NOT to people electrical engineering, but to see if people know how to run their radio and not to interfere with others. He also goes onto state that the number of questions or the complexity of the exam is not the problem, but it's the lack of people knowing how much fun HAM radio is. Also, what it has to offer. THIS IS WHERE WE AS HAMS CAN BE THE BEST PR THAT HAM HAS TO OFFER.

The interview also states that the recent incline of the HAM population following 9/11 will be wiped out in 3-4 years with the recent decline of new license grants if some intervention is not done.

I'm not contending that HAM radio is dead, not by any means, but we ARE at a cross roads it seems.

KC2NMX

My Opinion

by N9DG on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Indeed. However it's not so much the lack of technical knowledge of somebody starting out but is instead the pervasive attitude to not even *want* to learn more technical knowledge once they do have their ham ticket. Far too many people see the achieving their ham ticket as the *end* of there journey into to learning about ham radio and not the beginning that it really is, or should be. I also think that it’s ridiculous that a majority of both relatively new *and* old time ops couldn't pass the existing exams for their current level of license. Realistically you always be able to pass the exams for your current level of license with little or no study.

My Opinion

by K0PD on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

A well thought out thought's for a change.As for the bad manners on the air wave's what does anyone expect with the lanquage that is tolerated on commercial station's and television.Folk's i think if i hear the word freedom of speech in support of bad manner's and vulgarity once more i'll Vomit".All i'll add is we are now dealing with liberalized rule's and sadly a society that is becoming far to tolerant of immoral conduct.And i'm afraid the more the use of God and the ten commandment's are barred publicly the worse thing's will be period.......

My Opinion

by KI4NX on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I don't think it's the theory or the code that's causing what's heard on the bands these days. When people can hide behind something, many people become show-offs, bending/breaking the rules and being discourtious. When that happens, a few people go beyond and disregard what they know to be right and proper. It's these few that is causing problems for the rest of us; code speed or extra hard theory has nothing to do with it.

It is unfortunate that a few can not control themselves on the air as we once did. In my 40+ years in ham radio, I believe this is the worst of times for amateur radio. If we can't invoke self discipline then the government will do it. When that happens we all suffer in the process.

My Opinion

by WIRELESS on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If anything is hurting ham radio its hams themselves. The way hams converse with each other on this site is enough to scare any visitors away from ham radio and the people in it.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hmmm, interesting.
<<<<If ARRL gets its way, it won't be necessary do show that you understand how to assemble, operate and troubleshoot a basic HF station. Judging by many of the questions here....ie, "do I really need radials for my vertical" and "why does my G5RV have a high SWR on 17 meters"....we already have many hams that don't understand even the basics of HF communications. That's a problem! <<<<<

Would you agree that at the TECH level there really is no need to understand assembly of a HF station? Want to build a radio? Go get a book and learn it there, not on an entry level test.

Troubleshoot? Operation, but not internal components at the TECH level. I'm sure that I like most other TECHS that right now I need to learn how to run these darn things, not repair them. If I knew how to run it, I would have less of a chance at breaking it. ;)

IMHO, I think that at the TECH level the operation of the radio is most important. At this level I believe the goal should be to get people interested in HAM operations while giving them a larger taste of HF in order to spur a larger interest in upgrading the ticket. I also feel that the code vs no code issue is a mute point, and the out come is a done deal.

I also feel that the new direction at even one more lower test geared to having better written question, maybe at a lesser level is a good idea. As long as the test has the correct parameters......Kids of certain ages are allowed to take it. If we get them interested and one the air they could be the new support system for our hobby. Kids have the ability to pick up things and run with them. I'll use the home computer to support the fact that there is a great deal of kids that can run circles around most on a computer. My 4 year old is very computer literate, including the internet. (I'm not talking AOL either.)

KC2NMX

My Opinion

by W6BKY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Alan, W0BG - -

You worte, among other things . . .

-QUOTE-
"Rather than argue the merits of code versus no-code, or berate the poor new-comer for his lack of knowledge of the hobby, we should put our collective heads together to come up with a scheme to foster continued education among all of our members, new and old alike. While acting as Elmers on eham.net has its merits, it is no substitute for education. In other words, answering technical questions may be expedient, but it doesn't give the questionees the requisite knowledge to figure it out for themselves.

I wish I had the answers. I don't. Although I do feel the ARRL is doing a creditable job with their continuing education series, it is by no means enough. Perhaps these words will spur someone to suggest an alternative, which will better serve the knowledge pool that is so important to the longevity of our great hobby."
-END QUOTE-

I, too, wish I had some answers and I'm sure there are no simple and easy answers to this very complex situation.

For several years, I've tried to encourage prospective Hams, new Hams, and old Hams to develope/increase their interest in the technical aspects of Ham Radio. Last time I checked, you could still find some of my old "Wanna Tinker" series of articles on the hamradio-online website.

And, of course, I spent a great deal of time with the local Ham Radio clubs trying to encourage more to participate in some way in the technical aspects of our hobby. As far as I know, based upon the feedback received over the past few years, I have failed almost completely.

I have no idea what the answer to problem is, but I think the "dumbing-down" of our (U.S.A) culture in general is a big part of the cause of the problem in the first place, with mindless TV programming one of the leading contributors.

It's a real can of worms you have opened here, and I will watch with great interest as those more qualified than I offer solutions.

73, Dick, W6BKY

My Opinion

by K0RFD on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K0BG wrote:
>As it is now, the hobby has been dumbed-down to the
>point that an average 9-year-old can memorize the
>requisite question pool to pass an Extra class license
>in a week or two.

Nice troll, Alan, but I don't think so.

Mandatory retesting when you renew your license would go a long way toward ensuring that people like Alan actually *know* what is on the current exams before they shoot off their mouths.

And it would eliminate a lot of the "holier than thou" crap that really *is* a detriment to Ham radio. Eventually, we will all have taken the same exams.

But then we would have one less thing to talk about.

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KC2NMX: The length of the License Manual is unrelated to the test material, since before the VE system was instituted the License Manual did *not* provide any actual test questions. It provided an overview of material in general, and a very small number of "sample" questions and answers, which were not on the actual tests.

Today's study guides must be much longer because they contain the entire question pool, which is hundreds of possible questions. Being able to answer *all* of them does not imply an actual understanding of any of the material, as is evident by Extra class licensees having to ask how to make dipole antennas and such.

But I don't really think the "exam" has much to do with anything, anyway. One of the problems we have today is that internet access and content have become the peer group for many people, including prospective and already licensed hams. Back in "the good old days," pre-web, if one needed to know an answer he would go to the library and do some research to find said answer. In the process of doing so, he demonstrated initiative and also usually found answers to many more yet-unasked questions, since research is rarely successful on the first attempt.

It was common "in my day" (the 1960s) for new hams and prospective hams to buy and own the ARRL License Manual, and pretty much read it cover-to-cover, just because it was interesting, and they were interested, and there wasn't a resource like the web.

Now, we have stuff like Google which has replicated the entire contents of the internet, updated by the minute, in a globally accessible data base -- free to users! "In my day," I don't think most of us could have even imagined that was possible, let alone here and with us in our own lifetimes.

So, with most of the knowledge base of the world at our fingertips, why bother to actually "learn" anything?

This isn't just a problem with ham radio; it's a problem, period. One of my daughters had to do a report on Delaware (a randomly picked colony), drawing up a poster to try to lure new settlers to the place. She went on the internet, researched this for about 30 minutes, and came up with stuff that was pretty far-fetched.

Without my doing anything, I told her more truthful historical facts about Delaware than she found on the internet. Of course, I have a 39 year head start on her, plus the advantage of having actually *been* to Delaware a few hundred times.

No substitute for experience, I guess. Same with ham radio.

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by W5ESE on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> Mandatory retesting when you renew your
> license would go a long way toward ensuring
> that people like Alan actually *know* what
> is on the current exams before they shoot
> off their mouths.

so, in order to retain your status as a high
school graduate, you should be required, on
demand, to successfully pass any trigonometry/
analytic geometry, biology, or algebra II exam
you ever took in high school and pass it? if
not, you will no longer be considered a high
school graduate.

gee, i better start re-reading "hamlet"!

73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N9DG

Well spoken! A great insight to the problem. I fit this to a tee. I want in quickly to become active on VHF/UHF to start my journey that I don't see having an end.

My Opinion

by VE5JCF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think the big problem is the cost of equipment relative to what us young guys are paid these days. I make less than 15k/year (canadian net) despite having a bachelor's degree (computer science). That and also the dificulty in obtaining parts to build stuff. Mail order is a pain.

As for the exams. I would like to see the multiple guess eliminated and go back to written. This tests your knowledge better and still allows partial marks (ie you were right up until the end where you got 3x when you added x and x). In canada we have a question pool that you could memorize I guess, but they change the component values for the actual test so you still have to do the math. Then they figure out what the most common mistakes are and put those answers in as choices to confuse you. Now I know this doesn't really apply to the US exams so much but my understanding was that they were similar to ours though I may be mistaken. Oh and the code test should stay!

Oh and as far as operating practices are concerned, k1man is not a newcomer yet I still hear him swearing away on 14.275

I've only been a ham about a year so take my opinion for what it's worth.

My Opinion

by KU4QW on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

i r a hamm raideo men I get me raideo form me pa i reking i no howing to us it ok
i be thinking u guy r kelleng raideo wit al ur spealing nd fancie talking

by now

JimBoBillyBob

My Opinion

by N2OBY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<All one has to do is listen across any amateur radio band to hear the results. Ungentlemanly-like conduct, copious amounts of profanity, splatter due to over compression and lack ALC, and all of this with great disregard for the rules and regulations, both written and assumed.>>

Alan,

The paragraph above which I've copied from your post, while accurate, has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed "dumbing down" of technical knowledge or requirements in amateur radio today.

Unfortunately, what it does represent is a reflection of our society today in the United States. Ours has become a society revolving around superficial consumerism with no respect for others, no sense of moral values and where nobody is held accountable for their words or deeds. (And by "moral values" I don't necessarily mean that in a religious context - more about the basics of what is right and what is wrong, which transcends religions and which any well-adjusted adult understands)

I work at a local community college and with every passing year the new crop of students comes in with more attitude, less sense of responsibility and less of a work ethic than the year before. I'm only forty-one, and by no means a stick in the mud (still 21 in MY head), and am often surprised when I make observations about young people these days because I sound like my father... However upon reflection, I'm not really surprised because the parents of todays students are my peers, and thinking back I can see how many of my generation couldn't be expected to instill these important values in their children.

I know plenty of intelligent, technically-competent people who are crass, bigoted, selfish or otherwise socially lacking. In a nutshell, technical knowledge and socially-acceptable behaviour are NOT mutually-inclusive...

73,

-Ken N2OBY

RE: My Opinion

by VE7AZC on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I am an active contributor to the death of ham radio, at least according to the above postings. I am an advanced operator with full privileges and code. I don't understand electronics, even though I've tried to. Everytime I try to make or repair something electronic I wreck it.

The last time I did CW was to pass my exam.

I memorised all the questions and took the tests as fast as I could so as not to forget any of that information. Could I do it again ... sure ... I can just memorise the stuff again.

I purchased the most fully automed system I could, so I am the epitome of an appliance operator. If my radio breaks I'll throw it away and buy another one. The toughest thing I do while operating is remembering to step on the foot switch before I talk.

I purchased a loaded dipole for three bands, and built a 6m loop and a tri-band two element quad (that was really a lot of fun).

I am on 2m, 6m and all the HF bands.

I work for a large Power Uility and am actively promoting BPL as it is part of my work in telecom/electrical transmission. When faced with a choice between my job or my hobby ... there really is no choice.

I enjoy communicating on the radio when time allows and there are not more pressing thing to do. Although these days a lot of what I hear is akin to the Jerry Springer show.

If the hobby dies ... big deal. There's still astronomy or any number of other hobbies out there that are more 'family friendly'. Until then I'll continue to putter away with my appliances.

Cheers,

H

My Opinion

by NE1RI on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

It took me over a year of studying the Extra class material before passing the exam. I disagree that the average 9 year old can memorize the question pool in two weeks' time. If it's that easy, why aren't there more Extra Class operators out there?

Personally, I don't think the lack of technical expertise contributes to the bad manners/operating procedures on the bands today.

73 de NE1RI
James

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

W9WHE comments:

"After all, the only thing that seperates us from CB is the the standards. Take away the standards, and we are just CB with 1500 watts. Good buddy!"

Look bak at what happened when the 11M CB got out of control. The FCC just turned it loose and tried to ignore it.

But then a lot of CBers got NoCode Tech tickes and started their games on the 2M repeaters. Now the wnat NoCode HF tickes so they can play thie games there also.

A year ago I went into one of the oldest ham radio clubs in the USA. As the old timers have died off or quit this new class of operator has taken over. On one saturday morning I went in and found some of them modifing a 100W ricebox to operate on 11M.

In the earlier days ham radio was a technical challenge. Most of us either built a homebrew rig or modified a piece of surplus military equipment. We learned how and why our radio worked. Art Collins experimented with SSB as an amateur before commercilizing it. Part of Amateur Radio is suppose to provide a tool/opertunity for advancing the State Of The Art.

But today the new people just get a NoCode Tech ticket and buy a RICEBOX. They have no idea how or why it works.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Well thank God that the decision making process is out of your hands and in the FCC...

By the way -- youre wrong about the end of Morse code -- its the FCCs way of keeping the ranks divided -- if they eliminate the code then we will all have to fight something like BPL instead of each other.. and even if they do make a slight change it will be at least 5 years before it goes into affect ...

RE: My Opinion

by KX8N on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

How about the lack of manners, common sense, and respect for fellow hams?

You can talk till you're blue in the face, but there's NO test that can filter those qualities. Why is that so hard to understand.

My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I hate phrases like “Dumb-Down”, and “Lowering the Bar”. They are loaded words that automatically imply a criticism of anyone challenging the user’s position.

Yes……..It’s true that the current batch of modern equipment doesn’t require both Divine Intervention AND a “Captain Marvel Decoder Ring” to get into operation…..Is that bad? There are still technical issue to be mastered, most particularly the whole world of antennas.

The automotive world is a good analogy to look at: Modern cars make it easy for anyone with a license to go where they want to, when they want to. At the same time, working on a modern car is beyond most drivers. Most are content to be simply drivers, and leave the mechanics to the pros. A few, however, will dive into the new technology, and excel. It’s their choice, and everyone is fine with that.

I think we should follow a similar path: Let those who simply want to operate, do so! All we have a right to ask is that they do it safely and courteously.

We should also welcome and encourage those who want to become the next generation of technical gurus………….every sport/hobby needs it’s Richard Pettys.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SFD301 comments:

"Would you agree that at the TECH level there really is no need to understand assembly of a HF station? Want to build a radio? Go get a book and learn it there, not on an entry level test."

In the 1950 the Novice Class license was established as the ENTRY LEVEL ticket. The novice only had to know the law part and not to touch the HIGH VOLTAGE. The Technican Class was estblished for people that could pass the 5WPM code to and the GENERAL CLASS theory. This allowed the technican all the privilages over 50MHz. The Technican Class ticket was not intended as a entry level ticket.

What we have now it a result of the ARRL's desire go gain new members. It was the decline of the ARRL membership that was more of a concern to them than the decline of ham radio licencees in general.

Take a look at an ARRL handbook from around 1970 and a current ARRL handbook. You will see where the ARRL has taken ham radio. It is the ARRL that has promoted the PLUG AND PLAY, INSTANT GRADIFACION mode the the hobby operates in today.

Today's young people just don't see the need for ham radio. They have their computers and the internet.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

VE7AZC -- you should be the spokesperson for the ARRL -- thats the funniest thing I have read in a long time....

You crack me up!!! LOL

I too are like you -- Amatuer Extra.. last time I did morse was for the test.. memorized all questions and in fact -- walked into the exam with no license and 4 hours later walked out an Extra...

Got a $3000 rig which I have no idea what most of the knobs do let alone what those diode thingys really do -- and an antenna that I got from HRO and paid one of the local guys to put up...

But you know -- I love to talk on the damn thing... like to hear far off countries .. talk to new poeple and about 80% of the time listen simply to SW broadcasts...

So I too am the cause of the slow death of Ham Radio...

LOL

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<<Take a look at an ARRL handbook from around 1970 and a current ARRL handbook. You will see where the ARRL has taken ham radio. It is the ARRL that has promoted the PLUG AND PLAY, INSTANT GRADIFACION mode the the hobby operates in today.>>>>

Apples to apples, and such. The ARRL aside, it is the mainstream modern era that is looking for "INSTANT GRADIFACION", computers, internet, fast food, credit cards and so on. To keep the hobby from shrinking to a prune, wouldn't you have to keep up with the same marketing also?

No matter how much people want things to stay the same they can't and will not if they intend to stay around. Change is not always bad. Plug and play is GOOD. IC's are better than tubes, and so on.

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>>>Today's young people just don't see the need for ham radio. They have their computers and the internet<<<<

The same can be said in reverse in some cases. Echolink is a prime example of the two technologies coming together with HAM radio being the bigger benefactor. When radio was new, the awe of also being able to transmit must have been to people then what emial is to today's generation.

Imagine a world without either.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by AB0SI on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

There are several issues here -- all rather mixed up.

Issue 1: Enforcement. The dismantling of meaningful enforcement by the FCC sems to me to be a serious problem. Since serious misbehaivor within ham bands doesn't bother msot non-hams, it would seem reasonable to have hams pay for such enforcement. Assuming Congress were willing, would you be willing to fork over $50/year for your ticket to pay for meaningful enforcement? I would, but I can just imagine the firestorm.

Issue 2a: Licensing requirements and technical competance. Without addressing this issue directly, pardon me for saying "so what?." I don't think this has much to do with on-air behaivor. Knowing how ALC Speech Processing works does not seem to have much to do with hwo much splatter is created. As one non-randomly choosen example: There is a 17m SSB regular who certainly knows electronics, etc. whose signal os wider than my waistline. Undestanding why end-fed veticals need radials does not improve behaivor on the air.

Issue 2b: Licencing requirements as a filter. Would tighter requirements keep out more of thsoe who overdrive their (illegal) amps? Who it reduce the number of National Tune-up frequencies? Would it encourage people to find a clear frequency before spreading RF energy? I simply do not know.

Would it reduce the foul language, intentional jamming, etc? I don't think so. Check out 14.275, 14.313 way too much of 75 meters. Thsoe are not newbies, Extra Lites, etc.

Something that I have always wondered (no answers, just wondering): CW opeators DO seem more civilized in general. The question is: are they ONLY more civilized on CW? Do they revert to the common level when they pick up a mic? As an aside, I find PSK operators by far the most civilzed of all.

Issues 3, 4,5 ... someone else, please :)

Paul AB0SI

RE: My Opinion

by N8UZE on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KI4EZZ wrote:

"I agree that 5 words per minute is simple. the problem is the code test is sent at 13-18 words per minute spaced at 5 words per minute. that is totally different that a simple 5 words per minute. I have been studying for my code test for about 3 months now. It may be easy for a 9 year old. but, it has this 42 year old torn up!! Regardless, I hope the F.C.C. does not do away with the cw requirement."

------------------------------------------------------

I have found that the problem with learning code comes primarily from three issues.

1. Unrealistic expectations. We hear about the "wunderkind" that learned it in a week and are disappointed when we can't do the same. In reality, the average adult needs 30 hours of study and practice to get to 5wpm.

2. Improper study habits. To be successful, the average person needs to study 1/2 hourt DAILY or almost daily to be successful. It is more effective to break this into two short sessions rather than doing one long session. Letting several days pass between sessions means forgetting and backsliding. It will then take you more than the above mentioned 30 hours to be successful. The other incorrect habit is to try to force too rapid a progress, i.e. adding new letters before being solid on the one's learned to date. The brain gets confused and mixes up characters.

3. Incorrect study techniques. The code should not be memorized but learned by sound alone. Those who attempt to memorize the code rather than learning the sounds of the letters have a higher failure rate plus have a much more difficult time in getting their code up to a useful level.

As far as using higher letter speed spaced further apart to get down to 5wpm, research has shown that this is a much more effective way to learn than using slow letter speed. With slow letter speeds, beginners have a tough time distinguishing the end of one letter from the beginning of the next. They make far MORE mistakes in their copy than if the letter speed is higher but spaced further apart to bring the overall speed down. This is not just my opinion. Check out the book "The Art and Skill of Radiotelegraphy" available for free download from the internet. This book recommends the Koch method for learning code. Software using this approach is available for free download from the internet. Just search for G4FON. If you follow the instructions, you should be ready for the code test in a reasonable length of time (i.e. 60 days if you study/practice 30 minutes per day).

If you wish, you may email me using mycall@arrl.net

RE: My Opinion

by KI6LO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

VE7AZC writes "..... If my radio breaks I'll throw it away and buy another one.....".

Please throw your 'broken radios' in my trash can if you would. I can fix it and it will like it's new warm shack to live in.

My Opinion

by NY7Q on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I agree with all your statements. Ham radio is NOT for everyone. But there is an assumption that it is. Ham radio has never been just talkers (CW or Voice), it traditionally has been folks interested in electronics, all facets!!. Experimentation with circuits, to build radio receivers, transmitters, amplifiers, and anything that goes with the preceeding. If it were not for a ham radio operator, there probably wouldn't be an internet, nor cell phones. Those of you that want to be just talkers, should just go out and buy a nice cell phone, or just get on the internet. Cell phones and the internet do not compliment Ham radio. Mainly because you don't do anything but spend money to get on either. Ham radio is a hobby of skills, at different levels, hence, the license differences. Any extra should have an advance skill in electronics, advanced skill in CW communications, or any of the other tag along skills. Most of us do not want ham radio to evolve into what it is becoming. We want our electronics, our CW, and we would rather most of you just go back to CB FRS, Cell phones, or the internet. We would rather you not change us. It is you that must change. You must learn electronics, CW and anything associated with those to be a ham radio operator. Our entire society is becoming a gimmee gimmee without work or goals mentality. Those of you who bitch because your job is in india, china or wherever, are results of this mentality that is permeating ham radio, general aviation, and yes, hobby train folks.I blame the mentality of the folks at ARRL for all this mess. They are not the voice of 3/4 of all hams, but place themselves, in their own minds in that position, which is totally wrong.It is they, that have taken Ham radio down this disastrous path. I for one, would like all of you to find other hobbys. Ham radio is just not for you.

My Opinion

by VE3RTS on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

These are all good points. What does everyone think of putting a lot more questions in the pool regarding good operating procedures as a means to start people off on the right foot?

I realize that there are probably those who would ignore the lessons provided by operating procedure questions. But but there must be a lot of new hams who would take these to heart.

73

it hasn't changed

by VE8NX on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"All one has to do is listen across any amateur radio band to hear the results. Ungentlemanly-like conduct, copious amounts of profanity, splatter due to over compression and lack ALC, and all of this with great disregard for the rules and regulations, both written and assumed. "

Well nothing has changed. I have several copies of QST from back in the 70's and 60's. From the articles and letters it seems the above was just as true back then. But how could that be??? Is it not common knowledge that everyone was an electronics genius, could do code at 297wpm (in their head) and had to walk bare foot uphill bothways to take the exam under the steely eyes of an examiner who executed those who got less than 100%???

Oh yes, and the callsigns reported of those causing all the interference and using the profanity and rebroadcasting back then seem to lean heavilly to your 'upper echelon' of ticket holders.

Its a HOBBY. and every hobby always has and always will have losers in it - no matter the skill level.

RE: My Opinion

by VE5JCF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<I>Those of you who bitch because your job is in india, china or wherever, are results of this mentality </I>

Why shouldn't I bitch when companies outsource to put me out of a job? And then they get tax breaks to do it! Who do you think you are anyways? You try minimum wage for a little while and tell me what you think.

RE: My Opinion

by KT0DD on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The Amateur Radio license tests are NOT intended to give someone a BSEE or MSEE, They are intended to teach how to set up and operate a station properly and safely, and to teach the rules we all must follow.

I prefer meeting and talking to people on the air, especially DX, rather than trying to design my own microcircuitry. If I wanted a engineering degree, I'd enroll in the local community college for it. I like Amateur Radio as a HOBBY.

Besides, who wants to buy $5000 worth of test gear and tools to work on the current SMD circuits in today's radios? Even Tom Thumb wouldn't be small enough for some of it. And many OM's just don't have the eyesight for it anymore. Face it, it's a disposable electronics world. 73.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I would like to make another comment about the decline.

Until maybe 1980 or so most of the electronic supply stores (excluding RS) that were open to the public had Ham Radio sections. We could go in and look at and sometimes try the equipment we were interested in.

Those days are long gone. Now if you live near a HRO retail store you can do it. The local Ham Radio dealer in Seattle closed up last year. Now I would have a 3 hr. drive to the HRO store in Portland, Or.

The only real choice is to order over the internet. But you better have some idea what you want.

A lot of us got into this hobby building Heathkits. Those are long gone (except buying one on ebay and restoring it). The few kits that are available are either crude or very expensive. I don't know of an All Band (at least HF) tranciver that is available in kit form. Most of what is availble is single band QRP units. There is nothing really wrong with most but they are very limited.

Again look back at the old ARRL handbooks and you can see the kind of radios hams 30 or 40 years ago made in their hobby room. That kind of ham radio is lone gone except for those of us that restore and operate the old BoatAnchors.

REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK!

And they help keep your shack warm in the winter!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by N6ETE on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I work in the computer industry helping to design from a marketing perspective the next generation computers for a major computer company. The fundamental aspect of selling anything is to give the consumer what they want and make them feel good about themself. If you want more competent members, you have to give them a feeling of acheivement and belonging. Makeing the tests so that anyone can pass them will not do that. But giving a person a challenge will make them feel that they have accomplished something. Allowing them to become a HAM then becomes like an initiation into a fraternity/sorority. The person feels proud of their acheivement and good about themselves. They also then get a sense of beloging to an elite group. That is the key, then, to get them emotionally charged up. So if the tests were made more challeging at all levels then the hook would be, "maybe you are good enough, and smart enough to become a HAM, maybe not. Do you have what it takes to find out?." Instead of "Would you like to take a test that we have made so easy that a 3rd grader could pass?

So keeping the Morse code requirement is just one way to make the test challeging. If we want to eliminate it fine, but we will then need to make the tests more difficult, perhaps by adding more practicle questions on things like RFI mitigation, Safety, Mobil HF etc.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The original General and Technican licences required you to have enough knowlege about the workings of a radio transmitter so you could build your own.

But what I think I am seeing now it that that no longer matters. You can't build a solid state transmitter from scratch. You have to buy a RICEBOX that was made somewhere in Asia. The Electronic Manufactoring Industry was OUTSOURCED many years ago.

So since the new people coming in to hobby don't have to know how to build or tune a transmitter is the next step that we can only operate TYPE ACCEPTED equipment. If so then Ham Radio is no different then CB/FRS!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Suggestion:

The ARRL has eliminate the Novice Class and now want to refarm the Novice Segments.

Maybe they should allow the NCTs to use SSB in the old Novice Segments with TYPE ACCEPTED transmiters with a 100W limitation.

Then if they want to operate in the larger segments they would have to upgrade their tickets.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

My Opinion

by N8AUC on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

This is definitely a problem in ham radio today. One poster claimed that the ARRL License Manual back in the 1950's was like 4 pages long. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn't. That was way before my time. In my opinion, the problem began when the rule prohibiting examinees from divulging what was on the exam was removed. It used to be, that when you sat before an FCC examiner, you signed a paper that said you wouldn't divulge the contents of the exam, and there were penalties for doing so. In those days the question pools were NOT public knowledge, and it was illegal to publish them. This was as recent as 1979 or 1980, so it's not really ancient history. You got a syllabus of what subject matter was considered applicable, and from which the questions were derived. That's why the license manuals from long ago were only a few pages long.

Once that genie was out of the bottle, we quit teaching radio and electronics, and began teaching people to memorize questions and answers to pass their exam. And this is the root cause of today's problem, that being that today's new hams know little or nothing about radio and electronics. But boy can they answer multiple guess questions!

If the subject material itself and its proper application were taught, we wouldn't be seeing the kinds of simplistic, yet seemingly insurmountable technical problems we see nowadays in amateur radio. Once you teach someone how the parallel and/or series combinations of resistors work, or Ohm's Law, or whatever, they then have the ability to figure out any exam question on that topic without needing to memorize the questions and answers (providing they were paying attention when the material was being taught). It would also take away all the panic and worry (and the flurry of book buying) that surfaces everytime the question pool gets updated.

The problem is that method actually requires work and effort, and would most likely be regarded as "too hard". The benefit to this is that the student walks away with some real live practical knowledge.

Bottom Line - anything worth having is worth working to obtain. But it seems that most folks would rather just make money by selling question and answer books.

73 de N8AUC
Eric

My Opinion

by NL7W on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Alan,

At this point, I'll agree with your assumption regarding the “dumbing” down of Amateur Radio or "electronics" knowledge (in general). As others have pointed out, society and technology are changing - rapidly. The raw numbers requirement for electronics “experts” across our Nation, as well as the world, is diminishing. Those of us with a technical bent easily see these societal and technological changes. I firmly believe these changes become more pronounced as all of us (humans) get older, but even more so in this point in history.

Speaking of age (I'm almost 39) and careers, I have seen my career path change from technical, telecommunications technician and engineering work to that of a technical program manager in the same field. Given the changes in the technology and society, is this a natural progression of things? I think so.

As technology, society, and careers move forward, we must continually be ready to learn new things and adapt to changes. Amateur Radio must adapt and change as time progresses, too. Amateur radio must also remain grounded and rooted in its traditions and past. I firmly believe in core training, mentoring, and traditions. Because the communications electronics industry is still a viable career choice (just not in the numbers of jobs in years gone by), your generation (retired) must wisely and judiciously pass on what you've learned. That means passing on some of the enthusiasm and awe surrounding the magic of radio and electronics! Let's find and cultivate those youngsters with a sincere interest, and keenly remember ham radio and electronics isn't for everyone.

Today's working hams must also do the same with our Nation's youth. My 13-year old is studying for his ticket right now. Luckily, his interest and aptitude in math and science is high, and He is being carefully guided in regards to moral, education and career choices. He will succeed, and will not become a statistic of our country's current educational system.

On that note, many of us must balance family with careers (continuing employment and education). Let's be sure that child rearing and families win out. Or, if today's somewhat active hams, who happen to be fathers and mothers, can instill morals, traditions, love for technical hobbies, etc., we will be alright.

73.

RE: My Opinion

by WA4DOU on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N8AUC is correct in his facts and conclusions.

RE: My Opinion

by W4SK on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ditto, AUC. Virtually nothing worth having is free. Everything has a cost. Ham radio is no exception. When the effort to enter the hobby is made less "expensive", then the cost has to be made up elsewhere. Unfortunately, we see it on the bands today, where we are paying the cost.

And there is plenty of blame to go around. Obviously, manufacturers want greater numbers of customers; and fraternal organizations want more members. Short cuts to short range goals. It's sad.

-W4SK

My Opinion

by N5NW on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I hate to tell everyone this, but it isn't the new operator that is giving ham radio fits.

The fact of the matter is most of the problems are from Advanced/Extra class ops on 80 and 20 meters. I'm repulsed by the band cops, jammers, and foul-mouth "bodily function" nets that seem to think the band belongs to them. These are guys who passed the theory and code tests. Most passed 13 wpm, most passed 20 wpm. They believe that makes them attorneys, knowing exactly what their rights are, and how much they can get away with, and daring the FCC to come get them.

Self-policing was only truly effective when the "policing" came from someone you respected. Chances are if your experience was like mine, you're first equipment came from your elmer (or your elmer's junk box!). And disappointing your elmer put your equipment in jeopardy . . .

The other development that makes self-policing ineffective is the absense of shame in our society overall. Nothing we can do about it, I suppose, but it makes self-policing impossible. After all, if I don't CARE what you think, I'll probably ignore your advice.

There are a myriad of other aspects of ham radio that are at least detrimental, if not outright damaging. I think if you are selling a used piece of equipment, you should have used it! Too many people (in my opinion) are trying to make a living at the hobby. We end up with the cheats and lowballing that take the enjoyment away from trading equipment. The fun for me was always "that new rig" or that feature I couldn't live without. Nowdays seems the only issue is how much profit a piece of equipment will bring.

The thing that keeps me going is actually the new licensee population, like the 10 new technicians that passed their test last night at the VE session I worked. The astonishment and excitement on the face of the (age withheld on pain of death)-year old woman when she learned she passed was priceless. Let's just say it was possible that she was a great-grandmother. Those people are what make it worthwhile. I only hope the malcontents on the HF side don't run everybody off.

de N5NW (Marty)
Bellbrook, Ohio

My Opinion

by KB3FYD on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ham radio must embrace the future in order to continue and grow. We should have ham radio high speed wireless internet accessible throughout the country - and should lobby for the right to do so (increase throughput allowances).

Digital modes on HF, echo-link type connected repeaters, and other high tech solutions to communications ahould be commonplace. I should be able to dial in to the local repeater, say a call sign, and through voice recognition and databases I should be connected instantly to that operator anywhere in the world.

FORWARD THINKING has always been the hallmark of amateur radio, and is the only thing that will push growth. After all, we didn't stop with morse code - we went on to voice, and data, and satellites, etc. We need to innovate and do things before the rest of the world - not after.

This, and this alone, will save ham radio.

RE: My Opinion

by W6TH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WIRELESS on November 15, 2004.
If anything is hurting ham radio its hams themselves. The way hams converse with each other on this site is enough to scare any visitors away from ham radio and the people in it.

I may ad this:

The code and theory have been dumbed for both dumb ( meaning lazy and not too bright ) people.

Heck, we had kids at the age of 9 and 13 pass the old fashioned way of testing; 13 words per minute and not missing one single character, also high tech theory.

Get smart FCC and go back to the 3 classes of Novice, class "B" and class "A". Get rid of the profanity and disgust most complain about.

I don't hear it as I don't look or tune for it.

.:W6TH, station heard around the world.

RE: My Opinion

by K0RFD on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

W5ESE wrote:

>so, in order to retain your status as a high
>school graduate, you should be required, on
>demand, to successfully pass any trigonometry/
>analytic geometry, biology, or algebra II exam
>you ever took in high school and pass it? if
>not, you will no longer be considered a high
>school graduate.

The problem with this particular hypothetical is that the premise is flawed. Trig hasn't changed too much in a couple of thousand years. It's been several hundred for Shakespeare. Ham radio changes a lot in 10 years. It's not a valid comparison.

I think the question pools pretty accurately reflect what you needed to know in order to operate in the time frame during which the question pool was in effect. Today's Extra question pool may not require you to draw the schematic for an all-tube superheterodyne receiver from memory, but there is far more material on digital modes and spread-spectrum communication than there was in the past. There is still lots of math, lots of electronics, and lots of calculation necessary in today's Extra-class pool. With rigs changing every year, with communication modes changing every year, the question pool keeps up fairly well with changes in Ham technology, at least within the constraints of its 3-year development and approval cycle.

With the Extra-class pool up to 500 questions, I guess it's still possible to memorize it, although it's lots harder than it used to be. However the questions are randomly drawn, they appear in random order, and the order of the "A B C D" answers is randomized. Personally I figured it was far easier to just learn the material. However, everybody learns differently. I guess some people choose to memorize. To me it would have been a waste of time.

>gee, i better start re-reading "hamlet"!

Never hurts to read good stuff.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Wow, this subject has built up a long thread of input! I was reading for an hour, champing at the bit to respond but, I read them all -- so here goes.

First, I agree with the basic points made by N8AUC, K0BG, N9DG, and to some extent W6BKY. The main concern though is a position of ATTITUDE. Many new Ham's simply do not have an attitude towards learning the concepts we older Ham's have loved to learn. We have an appreciation for these concepts that they cannot muster, or really, are just unwilling to attempt to learn.

To clarify this for those who think that it is a good thing for Ham radio to be 'plug-N-play' let me give some examples of the fallicy in that sort of thinking thinking. The comment was made in one of the threads, "thats why IC's are better than tubes". Vacuum tubes have much better dynamic range than any solid state device, even FET's. Tubes will produce greater power more efficiently than any solid state device. Each has its application. Understanding which is best for an application is a matter of conceptual learning. Ham radio has long been the learning place, providing an area for scientific experimentation to teach and allow these concepts to be absorbed.

One example spoke of the decline of other hobbies as a comparative case. This may have some validity in our case too. Model rocketry and assembling kits have come under fire because of legal liabilty. They worry about glue sniffers, and people blowing themselves up. We now even have to suffer under the yoke of "RF Field Density" concerns from the radiation of our antennas, all of this while no epidemiological studies have shown that any harm can be demonstrated -- even from much higher power levels than we can legaly attain. I have many friends, some now retired, that work or have worked at TV and other Broadcast facilities, where they LIVED in much stronger RF fields, than went home to their Ham stations to play in somewhat lower strength RF fields. They are all healthy today!

The greatest prevelent threat has come from those who wish to make a quick buck from Amateur radio. They are the ones who really pursue quantity over quality. They wish to sell books and courses on quick and easy study techniques to obtain a Ham license. They have worked to eliminate the true 'entry level class' rightfully called Novice. They have changed the experimental qualities defined within the Technician Class of license such that many who hold this license are embarrased by it. I held a Tech license for 11 years, and was proud of every radio and electronics accomplishment I made while holding that license! Before that, I held the Novice license WN6BFH.

I have thus far enjoyed my Ham radio experience. I worry that it will be eroded, and then dispensed with, by a bureacracy that has aided in its ruin; and then discards it because of all of the observable problems. I worry that those who just don't want to study and learn will have sway in this laziness. They will never achieve, and thereby, will never really understand or appreciate what Ham radio ever was.

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N8AUC...

<<<This is definitely a problem in ham radio today. One poster claimed that the ARRL License Manual back in the 1950's was like 4 pages long. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn't. That was way before my time.<<

I said that with a reference, not just an OPINON. In other words, as a fact. Anyway, the point is that in 1958 a manual with 4 pages or so is NOTHING compared to what people today consider an easy exam. Some of the greatest HAMS came from those early BS exams.

So, for you to make a blanket statement that everyone just memorizes the questions is bolonga! Besides taking many electrical classes in HS, knowing ohm's law before age 17 and building a robot I majored communications in College.

There needs to be a line, but not a line that is so high the average HS graduate can not get involved. As the old elemers die off, then nothing would be left but mostly empty air. HAM radio is an art, but not rocket science. No offense.

I live in the city that brodacast TV was invented, the true down fall of HAM radio. Some of the greatest minds in communications lived here, and I fret to think that if they had the opinions of some today the technologies that exsist would be only imaginations.

Thank god for the internet and the ability for someone to take an extreme, closed minded approach.

RE: My Opinion

by KA4KOE on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Comment on BSEEs:

Being one myself, I can make the following statement: I would venture a SWAG* that 90-95% of my fellow electrical engineers out there wouldn't know which end of a soldering iron to grab. Yep, so a degree don't really mean diddly.

*Scientific wild a**ed guess

Feeleep

RE: My Opinion

by KG5JJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Alan:

I couldn't agree more. When I was a VE, we tested an applicant (passed) who later needed some antenna work. Several showed-up to the horror of his 3 year old son playing INSIDE his opened 3-500Z amplifier. He thought everything was pretty inside, and wanted to play! The newly licensed ham did NOTHING to stop him! NOTHING! When queried, he said that it had interlocks and bleeder resistors, so he wasn't worried in the least. Unbelievable.

I started wondering, in spite of legaleze that stated we VEs could not be sued, what might happen if a catastrophic accident happened, and WE would be blamed for applicants' technical impotence?

Because of this, and other factors (as you well know) I decided I couldn't do it any more. I've had a clear conscience ever since...

73 KG5JJ (Mike)

HAM?

by KZ1X on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SFD301

I don't have a dog in this hunt, regaring Alan's assertions.

But I *am* wondering, why do you capitalize the adjective / noun 'ham' ? It's not an acronym.

My Opinion, its the Japanese radio manufacturers !

by G0GQK on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I knew this would happen eventually, the Japanese manufacturers design and make radio's so good, and so complicated that we, as simple down to earth radio hams can't even repair them if they go wrong.

Well I think we should turn the clock back to 1950, the time before all these high tech rigs were available at rock bottom prices. In those days the rigs were so big there was room enough inside for a hamster cage, you could get your hands inside as well as your feet !

And the audio quality is too good these days, it was much better when we had the "real radio's", all lit up like Atlantic City, and we don't have the hissing and burbling sounds like they used to make, and the "motor boating". I really miss hearing the local ham when he used to be testing his home brew rig and he was "motor boating" all over the place.

Something else I miss as well is having a contact with a guy who's slipping and sliding all over the band, while he's chatting I'm following him with the VFO. We started off on 3.750 and by the time he's finished his over 10 minutes later we're on 3.756 and some guys in a net are getting all steamed up about these new hams who come on the bands without any proper training and start messing up ham radio. I used to call them "Jack rabbits", my,some of those rigs were really wily !

They used to say they should do more listening and get some knowledge before they're let loose on the bands. But ask them something technical and they would say, "I'm not going to tell you, find out for yourself, go and buy some books to read and find the answer yourself."

There's only one way to go, put a huge tax on these new fangled Japanese rigs and make hams get "the knowledge" by building their own rigs, making the cabinets, drilling all the holes in the right places and buying all the parts from the local Radio Shack ham radio store, where the friendly staff are always ready with helpful advice and have all the bits you need "off the shelf".

Now the Presidential Election is out of the way, do it, and do it........ NOW !

73, Mel

K5MYJ: good news for you!

by KZ1X on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>A lot of us got into this hobby building Heathkits.
>> Those are long gone (except buying one on ebay and
>> restoring it). The few kits that are available are
>> either crude or very expensive. I don't know of an
>> All Band (at least HF) tranceiver that is available
>> in kit form.

Since 1999, the Elecraft K2 has been selling at or over the company's capacity to make them. There are nearly 5000 of them out there, not to mention the many other Elecraft kits (K1, KX1, etc.).

Not just any low-end kit, the K2 has, by lab tests, the best (or tied for 1st place) receiver performance in all of amateur radio. Not bad for under $600, in basic configuration. I recently sold most of my other radios and made my K2 (serial # 0771) my main HF rig.

Check it out on the eHam reviews, and in QST (several times), many other publications worldwide, several multi-op contests and DXpeditions, and of course, http://www.elecraft.com

RE: My Opinion

by K2VCO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Reading these posts made me think. I understand that not everybody is smart, and not everybody is good at electronics or code. I understand that not everybody has a large amount of free time to learn this stuff.

What I don't understand is why some guys actually like to BRAG that they are dumb and/or lazy.

K2VCO

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SFD301, what's your callsign?

And if you're in the city where television broadcast was invented, I presume you're either in Scotland (Baird, in his labs in 1926 gave the first TV demo) or in Whippany, NJ, where Bell Telephone Labs made their first television wireless transmission in 1927?

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by KB3IFK on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

ALL THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOME KIND OF HAM RADIO SOAP OPERA TO ME. AT AGE 58 NEW TICKET JUNE 12, 2002, UPG ELE 3 NOV. 2002. THIS IS TRULY A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR THIS OM AS MY TECK SKILLS ARE POOR AND I STRUGGLE FOR EVERY LITTLE TID BIT I CAN LEARN ABOUT THE HOBBY. I DO LIKE TO EXPERIEMENT WITH HOME BREW ANTENNAS, HAVE PUT THREE TOGETHER AND THIS IS HOW I LEARN. ON CW I DID THAT IN THE NAVY 1961 THRU 1965 AND HOPE THE REQUIREMENT IS NOT DROPPED. RECEIVING IS EASY, SENDING SEEMS TO BE DIFFICULT FOR SOME OF THE NEW CW OPS. THE MORE YOU DO IT THE BETTER YOU WILL BECOME. OH, ONE MORE THING THE FISTS CLUB NUMBERS ARE INCREASING, WE ARE OVER 11,000 MEMBERS NOW, I WAS 9938, MARCH 2003. CW IS NOT DEAD. KEEP IT.

My Opinion

by KA5VCQ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think the lack of respect and patience on the airwaves is a direct reflection on current society.

You see it on the roads, in eating establishments, and everywhere else you go. Ham radio can't be far removed from current trends.

There are still plenty of good folks to talk to on the bands. You just have to be patient. ;-)

73 de KA5VCQ

SGT Korey Chandler
Ft. Bragg, NC
Part of the Signal Corps and darn proud!

My Opinion

by N4VOX on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

the worst examples of on the air conduct are in 80 meters and most of the offenders are either advanced or extra class. It is an absolute joke that either morse code or technical knowledge has anything to do with ham radio today.

Modern ham equipment requries no more knowledge than programing a VCR. With comptuer controled hf rigs and cheap automatic antenna tuners who needs knowledge.

This is just another cry in the soup heading by old goats that don't like change.

RE: My Opinion

by XWA2SWA on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I'm a retread. My original Tech license (early 60's) required 5wpm and the General-level written test. 5wpm was a mountain to climb; 13 wpm was insurmountable.

Enter the Marine Corps where (in 1964)it was decided that not only was 13wpm attainable for me, but I'd better hit 22wpm unless I wanted to hump a voicebox in a rifle platoon. Excellent motivator.

This was in the days when a renewal required proof (via a written log) that you had been active. I hadn't been & so my license lapsed.

Hit your fast-forward button to this summer, when my wife decided that I needed a hobby. Poor girl has no idea how expensive this can be if you let it get away from you.

A local ARC offered a 7 week course leading to the current Tech license. Admittedly, most of the course was geared toward passing the test rather than imparting the various physics lessons associated with electromagnetic radiation, but there was enough theory and safety that folks who started with no clue weren't left without one. The purpose of the course was to license operators to volunteer for emergency communications, expecting that most would pursue the hobby in VHF. The idea was not to develop experimenters or modifiers, but communicators.

Having passed the written test for Technician (and, for fun, the CW test), and providing proof of my former license, I now hold a General Class ticket. I will sit for Extra in the future, but not until I believe I'm competent to share in the teaching of new novices (lower case 'n').

I'm back in the hobby because I see it as an opportunity for public service in both emergency communications and Scouting (my other hobby). I'm back because, once I learned CW way back when, I came to appreciate it as an art form worth preserving. I'm back because there is still the excitement, the mystery, even the romance, of sending signals out into the air, and having a new friend respond.

I don't kid myself that the technical knowedge of the 60's is terribly relevant today (transistors were the new horizon then), but neither do I plan on designing, building or modifying equipment. I may experiment in and construct antennas, but my reason for being here is to be a communicator and, I hope, a teacher.

Perhaps some do see the current structure as being less demanding than the old. That seems a fact. And, there is some relevance to the notion that more stringent testing might make the amateur more careful in his or her use of the frequencies. All I can do is set an example of competent and courteous operation of my station, and hope it takes root somewhere.

73,
Jim
KE5CXX (ex-WA2SWA)

My Opinion

by AJ9C on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

There was a comment about the current study guides having all the questions and answers for the current question pools and that this has contributed to the dumbing of amateur radio. A reference was made that this type of assistance didn't exist in the "old" days. Im not sure that comment is correct. Although not sanctioned by the government or provided through a FOIA request there was something called "posicheck" (I think). You could order a "study guide" from a place in Iowa with questions for the test you were going to take. The questions couldn't be advertised as the exact test questions but they were darn close. I don't think anyone made this out to be dumbing down of amateur radio in the 1970's. Today's fact is you don't have to know how to build equipment to get on the air and much of what is available commercially cannot be serviced at home without a lot equipment and skill that most of us don't have and don't have an immediate need to learn.

Instead of complaining about the "dumb new hams" elmer them and teach them what you know. Thats how I learned what I know of radio (that and releasing the magic white smoke on occasion). Life is about change and so is ham radio from it's start. Embrace change, work with it and what doesn't work try to change for the better.

RE: My Opinion

by KY1V on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB2WIK/6 wrote:

"Now, we have stuff like Google which has replicated the entire contents of the internet, updated by the minute, in a globally accessible data base -- free to users! "In my day," I don't think most of us could have even imagined that was possible, let alone here and with us in our own lifetimes.

So, with most of the knowledge base of the world at our fingertips, why bother to actually "learn" anything?"

Steve, I understand your thinking here, but I have to disagree with you. I spend an enormous amount of time on the Internet looking up everything from how a lightening bug glows in the dark to how the new DLP chips work in televisions. Some nights I spend hours reading and learning about new things I have discovered on the Internet.

Quite frankly, I find more information faster on the Internet than was ever available to my father in our family Encyclopedia set.

In fact, I would venture to say that I am learning about anything and everything I want at a much faster pace then I ever would if I had to go to the local library to find the information.

What do you think?

David ~ KY1V

RE: My Opinion

by W7VU on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Jim
KE5CXX (ex-WA2SWA)

>>All I can do is set an example of competent and courteous operation of my station, and hope it takes root somewhere.

It Will take root somewhere, Jim. If only everyone had your attitude about learning, and passing the hobby on to the future generations.

73
Ron - W7VU
USAF (Ret)

RE: My Opinion

by AA4PB on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

There is a basic problem with the attitude that "I don't need to understand how this thing works, I just need to know how to run it". If you understood how it works then you would have a much easier time figuring out how to use it.

My Opinion

by W4LGH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What K0BG says holds a lot of truths. In scanning over the additional post I see additional good points.
I AGREE that the requirements to get a license has been DUMBED down, and we ALL know what happened to CB.
CB that NASTY word in the HAM community, but a lot of good hams got their interest in radio thru CB. And still do! I certainly don't care about CW as a requirement or not. Never liked it, no offense to you CW buffs, I am talking about my personal likes/dislikes. However I had to do it like everyone else, and since I didn't like, really had to work at it. But as bad as it was for me, I worked thru it. We have a major "ME" society today, well maybe a major "ME/NOW" society would be a better choice. Everyone thinks they are entitled to have something mearly because they want it. Not so... and most people know that you truely appreciate something more if you EARNED it.

One rule the FCC did away with, years ago, was a waiting period, you had to start out at the bottom, work in it, to be the best possible, then after a period of time you could upgrade. This waiting period, whether you agreed with it or not, gave you time to learn about the hobby, see if you really liked it, and then advance to the next level. Lets face it, we all learn better with a "hands on" approach, and it worked really well.

Ham were always respected for going the course and taking pride in their hobby. Today, I know Extra's that shouldn't have Tech class and vice vesa, however mostly those who have no more idea how bias turns a transistor on than the man in the moon.

There was also a time that the FCC rules had some serious BITE to it, and we all practiced hard to operate properly, as we didn't want to LOSE something we worked so hard to get.

I've always liked the saying..." Give a man a Fish, and you feed him for a day, Teach that man to Fish and feed him for Life"

Same applied here guys, if you give it away, they will have a small interest in the hobby then drop off. If they have to Earn it, they will be HAMS for life!!

73 de W4LGH - Alan
www.w4lgh.com

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For N4VOX, I thought I had dispelled this notion of present day licensing, and really understanding the very dynamic nature of radio. It a'int the same at all as knowing how to program your VCR. If that seems like a fair comparison to you, you may be a good example of what some of us worry about!

My Opinion

by KK7WN on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

In general we often tend to confuse technical competency with other charactersistics such as creativity,good manners and even ethical and moral behavior. There is no reason why a person can be technically competent and also a social barbarian . We see it all the time in corporate executives, politicians, and even in professors and physicians. I doubt that raising the technical bar will do anything to stem the tide of bad social behavior on the bands. That is more likely to yield to less tolerance of rude and insensitive behavior and more personal experience and training showing how appropriate behavior can make life much more pleasant and enjoyable for all concerned.

My Opinion

by NE0P on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>>>Today's young people just don't see the need for ham radio. They have their computers and the internet<<<<

There is no need for fishing either, as I can go to Wal-Mart and buy fish already cleaned, for a fraction of what a good fishing setup would cost. However, fishing seems to be more popular than ever, to the point where there are several TV shows about it on every day.

Wish they would make a ham radio TV show, where my job would be to sit in the shack, work DX, let someone film me doing it, and get paid for it.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> At last counting, the number of amateur radio
> operators in the United States exceeded 733,000, and
> by all accounts, still is growing. Worldwide, the
> estimated number exceeded 5 million,

Um, no. At last count the number of amateur radio licenses in the US was around 671 thousand, and declining.

The number of hams world wide is down 25 percent, mainly as a result of a fifty percent decline in the number of Japanese hams. Rather than the approximately 2 million that it was five years ago, it is now around 1.4 million.

See http://www.speroni.com/AH0A.html for details.

My Opinion

by WA1RNE on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

After this whirlwind of threads, its easy to forget the original question and final summation by K0BG:

"Rather than argue the merits of code versus no-code, or berate the poor new-comer for his lack of knowledge of the hobby, we should put our collective heads together to come up with a scheme to foster continued education among all of our members, new and old alike. While acting as Elmers on eham.net has its merits, it is no substitute for education."

"In other words, answering technical questions may be expedient.......but it doesn't give the questionees the requisite knowledge to figure it out for themselves."

***** You know, that last sentence is key.

We can test newcomers until the cows come home and they won't necessarily have what it takes to be effective communicators.

Poor manors - both on and off the radio is a fact of life. As someone from Ft. Bragg pointed out, it happens on the roads, it happens in restaurants, it's life and we'e stuck with it -even in ham radio. I recommend we just ignore them. Once everyone becomes a bit more wise to what their agenda really is, they will simply fade away.

ENOUGH with the negative. There is surely too much of that to go around.

How about something entirely the opposite??

OK, are you ready?

What about creating a community page for on-air roundtables, otherwise known as "nets"?

Why? Because we seem to have a lot of good ideas but sending them back and forth over the internet is like trying to change city hall by writing to the local newspaper every time a new thought pops in your head.

The manager of this web site might consider several categories using eHam as a means of organizing and updating times, dates, frequency, mode, etc.

For example:

*The Elmers Net, sponsored by eHam.

*The BoatAnchor Net, sponsored by - you guessed it, eHam.

*The CW League; every 3 minutes, check-in's are accepted and each one gets 2 minutes to let loose.

Any takers?

Everyone could really put their money where their mouth is.....and of course, with the best on-the-air etiquette, doing it the way we know best -via radio.

73,

Chris, WA1RNE

P.S.; Don't think about it too long

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> You have never needed Mensa-like mentation to join
> the ranks of amateur radio. But you did need a very
> good understanding of electronics, a good
> mathematical background, and the ability to read and
> write Morse code at five words per minute or faster.

Um, no. Even when the amateur radio tests were at their toughest, it required little more knowledge of electronics than that taught in the Army electronics technicians manuals of the period, and the ARS has never required much of a background in mathematics, by engineering standards.

The commercial first class license required more electronics background than any ARS test did, and I know, from direct experience, that even that wasn't enough to pass a junior level class in electronics.

My Opinion

by N3AIU on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

When I got my novice license thirty years ago (Gack! Was it that long ago?), you definitely had to know some electronics. And higher classes of license required more electronics. This knowledge was important, since a significant fraction of hams actually built and/or maintained their own equipment.

The situation today has changed markedly. Most of us, including me (unfortunately), have become "appliance operators", since all modern commercial gear is so complicated that we have to send them to service centers for repair. Given this fact, I believe that intermediate and advanced electronics knowledge should be phased out for the Technician license. A smattering of electronics knowledge should be required for the General license. For the Extra, intermediate electronics knowledge should be required. After all, they represent the "top" of the amateur ranks in the US.

What should Technician class exams cover? Given what I've heard on the air, how about:
1) Operating procedure: What do typical QSOs sound like? What are discouraged (but not banned) on-air topics? How do you call CQ? How do you call another station?
2) Use of equipment, including simple antennas: How do you adjust the mike gain so that you don't splatter over the band? What is the proper way of tuning a tube linear amplifier? What is the length of a 80m half-wave dipole? How do you set up a radio to talk through a VHF repeater?
3) Regulations: What are the rules regarding interference? How often must you identify? What is the maximum legal power limit? What are valid US callsigns (go to VanityHQ for a few weird ones)?
4) Safety: How much RF exposure is allowed on 10 meters? How much current can kill you (a little Ohm's Law here)?
5) More?

I realize that some of these topics are very elementary, but if Technician licensees were required to know this stuff I think that ham radio in the US would be in better shape.

73, Nick N3AIU

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> As for the exams. I would like to see the multiple
> guess eliminated and go back to written.

The head of my undergraduate program got his second PhD while I was one of his students. In educational psychology. He studied whether test methods make any real dfference to test performance. He discovered, and it has been demonstrated many times since, that no, in general, multiple choice tests are no easier than essay tests.

An 'easy' multiple choice test is only easy because it was designed to be so.

If you think that the amateur radio tests are too easy, then get the content changed, by contributing to the pool review process.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> The original General and Technican licences required
> you to have enough knowlege about the workings of a
> radio transmitter so you could build your own.

And the limited recipe-following knowledge that this provided convinced a lot of people that they understood RF design when they did not.

Goes a long way to explain all of the mythology that passes for 'understanding' of propagation and antenna design.

My Opinion

by KB3JNR on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"However, it isn't the lack of code which will kill amateur radio as we know it, it is the lack of technical knowledge."

Which is something that can easily be fixed, when the technical material is presented in a non-threatening and non-mysterious way. You don't have to be the bright bulb to get some of the stuff that makes this RF stuff work. It just takes the patience and compassion to know that sitting people in something that looks like a sterile environment isn't always the best answer.

Virginia, AK4EA

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For N3AIU, I see, you want to formalize the dumbing down! In other words, 'Ok newbies, here is a list of minimally dumb things you must learn. We know you are dummies, so we will make certain that you know at least this basic minimum.'

Jeez, you say you were licensed 30 years ago and held a Novice license! Thats what a Novice license was for, to show the FCC that you knew the rules, and had at least a rudimentary understanding of electronics.

It seems you have missed the point of this thread entirely. It is these dumb a*s'ed exams that are bringing our standards down. You want to codify, or should I say, justify them?

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

It's a myth, you know, this idea that in the olden days, hams were well educated in electronics.

Here's the reality: Once, long ago, nobody knew anything much about electronics. Every experimenter was an amateur. All were on an even footing.

Then, sometime after WW-I, probably during WW-II, something critical changed: how much you had to know to be well educated in electronics.

At that time, the amateur radio hobby slowed its advancement down dramatically. The amount of electronics necessary to be a ham was bounded by the amount necessary to be able to cope with the equipment of the day.

As the equipment became better, the needed electronic knowledge became less, and hams, typically, became less well educated in electronics.

Meanwhile, electronics knowledge exploded. To the point where a four year undergraduate degree in electronics specialized in some small aspect of the field.

There was no 'dumbing down' as a result of test changes. Rather, through out the history of amateur radio, most operators wanted to use radio, not implement it. Most operators have *always* learned only as much electronics as they needed to satisfy their operating needs.

Meanwhile, the reality of electronics is that it's not the same field it was back when hams needed to know a moderate amount of it. Large scale integration has completely changed the nature of the field, and, for the most part, put electronic design out of the range of amateurs.

Not only is there no longer much need for electronics skills in order to play radio, but it's also prohibitively expensive for most hams to be able to equip the sort of setup up necessary to be able to.

W2XB, WB2WIK & WRGB

by NC2W on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I believe he is refering to Schnectady NY. WRGB, channel 2 was thought to be the first comercial broadcast television station in New York, and possibly the USA. Later WRGB changed to channel 6, where it continues to transmit today.

Additionally WGY is one of the oldest, (probably not the oldest) commercial radio broadcasters in the USA.

GE had a profound impact on Schenectady, and continues to today.

While detailed history may prove me wrong, this is why KC2NMX is refering to this information. As you may know any great invention was usually invented by multiple people, at once. Try to explain who invented the mine safety lamp.

Have a nice day.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For AE6IP, how about this? In the 1920's, shortly after WW1, a good technician would have a good working knowledge of Transconductance, and could select the best vacuum tubes for a given application.

My theory is, a good Ham today should know the merits of a given J-FET or, MOS-FET, and an appreciation of the noise floor at the desired frequencies. If he has this level of knowledge, he can then merely push the correct button on his radio to duct the signal into either of the afore mentioned front-end amplifiers, or just bypass them both, and push the button that ducts the signal straight into the mixer stage.

RE: W2XB, WB2WIK & WRGB

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

This thread is starting to aggrivate me, so I will probably on on to other things soon but, as a side note:

I believe it was Pittsburg, PA where Philo T. Farnsworth first invented real (electronic) television.
He moved from his lab there to San Francisco, where he completed the design.

RE: My Opinion

by N8AUC on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

OK.

SFD301 - Great! You actually saw the 4 page license manuals. I never said I doubted you. I just said it was before my time, then explained why it was probably true. We're actually in violent agreement.

I hope where you are that a degree in communications is a technical field. Around here, a degree in communications qualifies you to be a TV or Radio Announcer, or someone in marketing. As for me personally, my high school interest in ham radio is what ultimately led me to pursue and obtain a BSEE. It gave me a significant head start on all the folks who were learning it for the first time with no hands on experience.

Feeleep - I know what you mean about educated people not knowing what end of a soldering iron to pick up. I remember seeing some very bright kids (who carried a 4.0 GPA) literally grab the wrong end of the soldering iron while taking Circuits I lab as a sophomore. These were some really bright people who simply didn't have a clue when it came to the real world. I will say that they did learn from their mistakes, and did not repeat their initial tactile error. Of course the second degree burns on the palm of their hand provided a painful reminder of that error for quite a while.

To the guy who wanted to place a stiff import tax on Japanese rigs, I have to disagree. Other than the extreme miniaturization and clever packaging, there is nothing special about commercially built rigs of Japanese origin. There isn't anything in there that you couldn't build yourself if you wanted to do it badly enough. It would be difficult, it would be the challenge of your life, and it would be an awful lot of work. It also probably wouldn't look quite as pretty, but it can be done. Who was it that once said, "amateurs built the ark, but professionals built the Titanic"?

But the guy who hit it dead on was W4LGH. "If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish you feed him for life." If you have to earn your ham ticket, you'll be a ham for life. I think this is mainly because you feel that sense of accomplishment that makes belonging special. This truly is a fraternity or sorority of like minded people. There is a rite of passage required in order to gain admittance to this wonderful thing called ham radio.

The first thing that should be taught in ANY ham radio license course is "The Amateur's Code", written by Paul Segal. It usually appears in the beginning of the ARRL Radio Amateur's handbook. If everybody just followed that, almost all of the problems we complain about would vanish.

This still doesn't fully address the foul-mouthed fools on 75 and 20 meters, who are an embarassment to most of us. These people are the statistical outliers, the 10% of any group that no matter what you do are just going to be - uh - er - um well you know. Not the horses' head - but the horses' other end. I'm afraid that the only way to address that is as an enforcement case.

73 de N8AUC
Eric

RE: My Opinion

by W5HTW on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Four page license manual? Do you mean four pages for the Novice ticket? In the 1950s the ARRL license manual covered all classes of ham license. I think there were about 150 questions on the Extra segment alone, probably covered six pages or more. And perhaps 50 questions, with essay answers, on the Novice section. Yes, I think it WAS four pages - maybe for the General section, even, maybe 100 questions, with explanations of the answers. But to suggest the manual was four pages is ludicrous. It had four pages at least of just plain introduction.

During the 1940s (long before I got into ham radio!) and during the 1950s, a good many hams could not afford to go down to the store and plunk down $500 of 1950s money to buy a new ham station. When I got into ham radio in 1956, the choice, if you weren't rich, was to build your own, or modify surplus military equipment. I did both. It was a necessity. And if the equipment failed, if a resistor smoked, I had to dig out the soldering iron and replace that resistor. And I had to figure out WHY that resistor burned or I'd burn up another one, or do more damage.

It wasn't that I wanted to be an electronics engineer. I just wanted to put my ham gear on the air and keep it on the air, and that required being able to get into it and repair it.

That experience served me well. I went into the military as a communications tech, and later, as a civilian, with the federal government as a tech and operator. The qualifications to get in were (aside from a knowledge of Morse code at 15 wpm) a good basic understanding of electronics theory, including AC, DC, RF, and general troubleshooting. But it all started out with just keeping my ham gear on the air.

In fact, that was what made hams valuable enough that, after WW-II, we were reinstated. We knew how to fix a radio, modify it, get it on the air, and use it. We could be called up as what I now call "communications reservists" and drafted into the military (or volunteer.) We could be sent to the field with minimal training, therefore minimal expense. We could serve our country because we knew how to get that darned radio working, how to keep it working, and how to use it using military standardized procedures AND CW.

Yeah, most hams WERE technically minded in the 50s and 60s. They had to be. There were always a few lawyers or doctors who had the bucks to buy a new Collins S-line and call the club members over to hook it up. But most of us didn't. We repaired our transmitters, our receivers, and our antennas. When the rcvr quit 'rcver'ing' we went to the surplus store and bought the parts to fix it, and then we went home, turned it on its back and got the thing going again.

That can't be done today. Most hams will never ever open their rice box, or if they do, it will be to plug in a filter. "No User Serviceable Components Inside. Do Not Open." If it smokes, we send it to the dealer.

And it is not getting more technical. With the pre-Incentive Licensing, we still had tiers of "apprentice" (Novice), "journeyman" (General) and "Master" (Extra.) We had the Technician, too, to further VHF/UHF operations, not just to key up repeaters. And we had the Advanced.

But the three steps were (1) get into ham radio and "get a license to learn." That was the Novice ticket. (2) Get upgraded to General. Yes, it took 13 wpm code, but it also took substantial theory, on transmitters, modulation, frequency tolerance, calculating resonant frequencies (not just of antennas, but of tank circuits) and troubleshooting. When you passed the General you were not an electronics technician but you were certainly on that road. And, (3) upgrade to the real expert. But to do that, you had to be a General or Advanced for at least two years, which meant you gained some practical experience. That put you above all the others because you had "been there, done that." You had passed a quite stiff test on advanced electronics and RF, and you had two years of "journeyman" experience under your belt.

You were no longer the holder of "a license to learn." You were the holder of a "license to teach." That is absolutely untrue today, totally. The Extra ticket denoted the "extra" knowledge, the expert level of ham radio. Today it denotes only that you can work the lower 25 khz of the bands. It has become a "license to learn" and that leaves us with a burning question:

Who the hell are the teachers?

Ed

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Oh Eric, I think you are making a dreadful mistake! Read again part 2 of "The Amateur's Code" (according to the ARRL and Mr. Segal)

"The Amateur is Loyal ... He OWES his Amateur radio to the American Radio Relay League, and offers it his unswerving loyalty"

What a bunch of socialist hogwash! I used both the ARRL license manual when I studied for my first tests, as well as Ameco's manual. The Ameco manual was better written, and more comprehensive but, I DON'T OWE MY STSTION OR LICENSE TO THEM EITHER!

I don't disagree with some of the practical sentiments of Mr. Segals "Code" but, much of it reads like socialism. Also, the ARRL has been an historic contributor to the dumbing down of Ham Radio since at least 1964. Remember "Incentive Licensing"!

RE: My Opinion

by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day.
SET a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life"

---

I figured that quote has absolutely nothing to do with this thread but after reading most of the above crap i figured you guys input didn't either... actually I just skimmed, I mean -- DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY READ ALL OF THIS STUFF PEOPLE WRITE ??? Maybe if you spent less time on the Internet and more time on the air you would act nicer ... --

-- go back and read VE7AZC post above again though-- he hit it right on the head...

I am still laughing....LOL

RE: My Opinion

by K6BBC on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I am thankful I was licensed in 1968, owned Swan, Hallicrafters, Johnson Viking, and Drake. I dreamed of an S-Line someday. I operated on the first 2 meter repeater with a Heathkit Tower. It was a blast. There were lots ok kids on the air. The Novice bands were full of them. Many became my friends. Every high school had a radio club. Ham gear was sold at ham swap meets. My SX 101 kept me warm in the winter and had that certain smell. Henry Radio was the place to dream.

Now, the kids are gone, attitudes are grumpy, rigs don’t smell and are mostly imports that lack personality.

Does anybody know the way back to 1968?

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K6BBC comments:

"Now, the kids are gone, attitudes are grumpy, rigs don’t smell and are mostly imports that lack personality.

Does anybody know the way back to 1968?"

K6BBC you could do like many of us other OLD FARTS and buy your favorite BoatAnchor on eBay. Then join some of the OLD FART AM activity.

And the rig will help keep your shack warm in the winter.

REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by WA4DOU on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Considering the state of the modern world and where its headed, I'd gladly trade it for 1968, if only it were possible.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA4DOU comments:

"Considering the state of the modern world and where its headed, I'd gladly trade it for 1968, if only it were possible."

Well at least you can buy a 1968 BoatAnchor on eBay and play with a real radio!

REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

My Opinion

by AA6YQ on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If "Amateur Radio" really means "Amateur Radio using technology from the 50s and 60s", then interest will ultimately decline to a low level -- just as interest in flint-knapping or musket-shooting has declined to a low level.

If Amateur Radio means "Amateur Radio using current technology", then until we find a phenomenon superior to radio for wireless communications, Amateur radio will live on. In this vision of Amateur Radio, one demonstrates proficiency by choosing the optimal taps for the digital filters in an MFSK decoder, not by correctly receiving CW at 21 wpm. As the technology moves forward, so should our notion of proficiency.

Personally, I'd define our hobby as encompassing its cumulative technology. For those who believe that real radios glow in the dark, 21 wpm CW and grounded-grid tuneup procedures are a fine way to demonstrate proficiency. Alternatively, one should be able to demonstrate proficiency in the more current aspects of radio technology. An amateur who can't decode CW in his or her head at any speed but can properly configure a software-defined transceiver would be a credit to our hobby, and would help keep it moving forward.

Lowering the proficiency bar for older aspects of radio technology -- like CW -- without adding requirements for proficiency in the newer techologies is what allows dilution of the overall competence in our ranks.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

RE: My Opinion

by KX8N on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I find it beyond belief that the FIVE year anniversary of the 2000 restructuring is only a few months away and everyone is singing the EXACT SAME SONG that they were five years ago.

You know what, guys?

Amateur radio didn't die. It's still alive and well.
Amatuer radio doesn't sound any more like CB today than it did in Feb. of 2000.

I'm and Extra "lite", and damned proud of it. I don't tune up ontop of other people, I don't say "roger" or "10-4" on repeaters, I wait to see if a frequency is clear, I don't curse on the air, I don't cause deliberate interference, and I try to treat other hams on the air as nicely as I want to be treated.

This isn't because I passed through the filter of a test.

I took the 5 WPM code because it was a requirement.

Yet I hear others on the air who have been hams for over 40 years, passed a 20 WPM code test in front of an FCC examiner, and they STILL act like a total ass when they key down.

This is important enough that I'm going to repeat it from earlier: THERE IS NO FILTER FOR COMMON SENSE, COURTESY, OR RESPECT.

A total jerk can learn morse code just as well as someone who acts like a decent human being.

I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with learning code. In fact, I'm building my speed up to something decent to use on the air.

But Joe Schmoe down the street who runs 500 Watts on channel 19 has the ability to learn it, too.

If someone wants to get on the air just to cause trouble and raise hell, they don't have to get a license at all. Just get on AES' web site, fill out your order, and you are on the air in a matter of days to do all the jamming and hell raising that you want.

Come on, if someone in their 20's or 30's wants to get their ham license, then they are in the 1% or less of the American population that gives a damn about ham radio.

You should be happy about that.

New Techs, Generals, and Extras aren't getting tickets because they want to cause trouble. They aren't getting them to get on the air and play CB. It's a whole lot easier and cheaper to just BUY a CB than to become a ham.

These people are wanting to become hams because they want to talk, to interact, to help, and to become one of us.

Do we have to be so damned elitist that we have to cut off our noses to spite our faces?

It's time to quit beating this horse and move on with our lives.

Oh, by the way, about the ability to build an HF rig:
When were the first pre-built rigs introduced? I used to own a Kenwood 440. It was dated 1983 if I'm correct. You know what, it didn't come as a kit, did it?

You could buy it off the shelf ready to operate. Sounds kind of like what you guys are referring to as Plug N Play, doesn't it? And that was 17 years before the great dumbing down of Amateur radio.

Would I try to fix the Icom 2100 sitting in front of me if it quit working? Probably not. Why? It depends on what's wrong with it. If it's a common component that I can easily get, then sure. If it's a microchip, or something else that's proprietary to Icom, it would be cheaper just to buy another one.

Is there anything wrong with that mentality? No. As long as it keeps me on the air, it doesn't matter.

My Opinion

by PH1PH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Worldwide, the estimated number exceeded 5 million, spurred on by the every-increasing number of nations who have eliminated Morse code as a license requirement. I suspect the United States will soon follow suit, the code pundits notwithstanding."

I find it very odd that the ARRL is ignoring the IARU constitution by not endorsing the policies adopted by the IARU regarding morse testing and trying to go it alone.

The Council's Morse resolution took into consideration the approval--without opposition--of ITU-R Recommendation M.1544. That document sets out the minimum qualifications of radio amateurs. The
Council also said it recognizes that Morse code ''continues to be an effective and efficient mode of communication used by many thousands
of radio amateurs'' but that Morse code proficiency as requirement for an HF amateur license ''is no longer relevant to the healthy future of Amateur Radio.''

See http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2001-arlb044.html for more information.

Note that 'without opposition'. Note also that the IARU constitution states "A Member-Society has the obligation to represent and promote IARU in its country and/or territory and shall ensure that the principles, resolutions and recommendations of the IARU are made known to all amateurs within its area of influence"

See http://www.iaru.org/iarucnst.html for the full text of the IARU constitution.

By going its own way in this the ARRL is not exactly sticking to the letter and spirit of the IARU constitution and policies.

73, Pete PH1PH - G7ECN

RE: My Opinion

by W1BAK on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The answer is so simple. Make an elmer responsible for teaching proper operating methods and all aspects of Amateur Radio. Make it a requirement that in order to gain a ticket, you must accept the future responsibility of elmering. This is the best way of passing on this great hobby in the correct manner. How many of you reading this had an elmer? I didn't. I had to pick the brains of other hams that I met on 2m. Maybe if I had had an elmer, I would have passed the cw exam that first (or second) try. Now...with age and drugs from a crippling disability, I find myself trapped at the NC tech level. I don't want this to happen to the newbies that will be taking over my mic when I'm gone and I'm sure that you out there don't want it to happen either.
No matter what your hobby is, training and full knowledge of that hobby is what keeps it interesting and draws more people into it. Left to our own devices, we humans become bored with what is no longer challenging and will cast aside that which no longer holds our interest. The lifes blood of this hobby isn't newer equipment or changes to the rules or changes to the exam or even changes to the license structure. It's elmers, folks. Plain and simple.

RE: My Opinion

by KA4KOE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

1st Class Commercial? Forgive my ignorance on this subject, but was this the same as the 1st Class Radiotelephone or Radiotelegraph License?

From the study manual I remember seeing, I'd say the material was NOT easy to say the least.

RE: My Opinion

by KC9AWS on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Here's the problems. Guys that talk too much, and do too little. Guys that want professional radio, instead of amateur radio. Guys that learn how to memorize answers, and not put, what the question was to test, into practice. Guys that think CW is the only mode to use. Guys that want you to get your driver's licence testing on a Model T. Guys that like to tell you how to do it, when they won't or can't do it. Guys that are on ego trips.
Amateur radio is suppose to be a hobby, to have some fun and enjoyment, not a job! When prospective amateurs hear all this, alot of them get turned off real quick to amateur radio.
Why not make it harder and less enjoyable? That way you can, someday, send CW or talk to yourself, when there is no one else left.
Just my opinions!!

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W8JI on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The reason the license manual was 4 pages long many years ago is they expected you to get off your lazy soap-opera TV watching web-surfing hind end and read books and learn.

The answers and exact questions were NOT in license manuals. Just a general overview of questions.

Now we have what basically amounts to an "all the questions-all the answers" guide that is longer.

The length of a study guide does not in any way reflect the difficulty of the exam so far as technical or operating skill requirements to pass are concerned.

Face facts before you break your arms patting yourself on the back. It is far easier and requires far less skill today to become an Extra than it did to become a General 25 years ago. There are quite a few Extra's today who can't and won't even build a simple dipole.

Of course the technical level has dropped, but look at our entire nation. We are now 25th in the world in basic match and science skills for graduating students, and exporting technical jobs like we were factory jobs in the 70's and 80's.

Why would amateur radio be exempt from this exodus of brains?

My Opinion

by WIRELESS on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

When I read these forums (the little that I actually do) I can't stop laughing. When are hams going to realize that:

Ham radio is not important for anything.

Having a license means nothing. Its a joke. There are much harder things to learn than a little electronics and code.

Hams are not important even though they all seem to have an extremely high opinion of themselves.

There are many other hobbies in this world and I doubt if any of them have the screwed up people in them that ham radio has.

If ham radio is dying it should. Maybe it will reincarnate itself into something with normal people in it.

There are a few adjectives which describe ham radio, ARRL, hams themselves and they are incompetant, arrogant, basically stupid in a general sense, personally repulsive, and a few I won't use.

Except for a few hams I have known for over 35 years when I was first licensed, I wouldn't associate with anyone on any of the bands and I think alot of new people won't either and thats why they leave.

RE: My Opinion

by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

PH1PH

your figures for the amount of hams are a little high...

According to the IARU there are 3.1 million operators worldwide.

There are 1.7 mil alone in Japan down from approx 3.0 mil 7 years ago.... Japanese license costs are high (the avg Japanese guy doesn't bring home much $$ at all) and that is sited as the main cause of the delcine.. Japanese Station license fees are about ¥15,000 ($120) for a new license and an additional ¥3,500 ($28) for each five year renewal. The relatively high fees may affect the Amateur Radio service, especially during times of slow economic growth...

The IARU states that its difficult to be accurate since many of these countries dont report the true number of licensees....

but according to the IARU for 2002

1 Japan 1.700.000 om
2 USA 682.000 om
3 Germany 66.000 om
4 England 65.000 om
5 Indonesia 62.000 om
6 Spain 49.000 om
7 Canada 46.000 om
8 Italy 32.000 om
9 Brasile 29.000 om

At the end of ’02 = 3.1 mil om in the World !

REGION 3 IARU = 1.650.000 om
REGION 2 IARU = 1.000.000 om
REGION 1 IARU = 450.000 om

The interesting thing to note is that 17 out of the top 20 countries has done away with morse code requirements.... wonder how that will eventually affect the numbers (if any)

RE: My Opinion

by N8AUC on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH -
You said,
-Oh Eric, I think you are making a dreadful mistake! Read -again part 2 of "The Amateur's Code" (according to the -ARRL and Mr. Segal)

Yeah - you're right on that one. No one should have to owe allegiance to a ham radio club. Your family, your country - yeah - but not a ham radio club. That includes the ARRL.

Me personally, I am a member of ARRL, and I do support them and their efforts most of the time, and I make it a point to inform my section manager and division director when I don't. There was a time though, when I wasn't a member, wouldn't join, and wouldn't hear of it. That's a matter of choice, and everyone has the right to make their own choice on the ARRL, or any other group or club.

It IS an ARRL published book, did you expect them to say anything different? Mr. Segal was probably a devout member of the ARRL, too.

I think that the rest of it applies, though.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by KC8VWM on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Guys that want you to get your driver's licence testing on a Model T."

What about?

"They should issue automobile drivers licenses based on your ability to operate and control a horse and buggy."

or:

"Issue ham tickets based on your ability to dig up flint, felspar, mica and coal from the ground to construct a fully functional radio transciever in the middle of nowhere, with nothing but hollowed out tree limbs as resonating coils and by spinning your own homemade wire for antennas by impregnating vines with metal filings found on the ground."

Say, didn't Star Trek have an episode similar to this once?

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by KC8VWM on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

... Or, mabey it was that professor on Giligans Island that really inspired me to become a ham. I can now build an electric generator for field day constructed out of coconuts and a bicycle made from bamboo and palm tree leaves.

My Opinion

by KB3FHN on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The test's have NOT been dumbed down as anyone who has looked at the 801 question pool for extra can attest. I have been studying for over a year and am still having a hard time with it !! My Girlfriend looked at my Gordo West study book and said you have to learn all that math and crap just to talk on the radio !!!
As far as the code goes I say fare thee well , it give's me a headache.The sooner it's gone the better !!

RE: My Opinion

by W8MW on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>it isn't the lack of code which will kill amateur radio as we know it, it is the lack of technical knowledge.

Sorry but that conclusion is based on personal perception, not reality. When I think about hams aspiring to higher standards I think of the Maritime Radio Service. These were top notch radio operators and technical people doing nearly identical things amateurs do. If you were the best of the best in amateur radio, and you worked even harder and learned more, maybe you could qualify to be a radio officer.

But the radio man was made obsolete thanks to automated, self-diagnosing, redundant, plug n play technology. Technical knowledge of First Class Radiotelegraph Operators with Radar Endorsement didn't stand a chance against cost effective alternatives that replaced human beings. The demise of that radio service was all about the money.

Amateurs have enjoyed a long run inside a bubble protecting us from the money. For the first time since most of us have been alive, big money has a vested interest in the demise of amateur radio in the US. I’ll bet they drool over online discussions like these that show what a soft target we are. Go ahead and think some amateurs don’t deserve the privileges they have. Big money doesn’t think ANY of us deserve the privileges we have.

The amateur community has always contained people with varying levels of proficiency in both technical and operating skills. People who stay with it usually make personal progress in the areas they find interesting. I do agree we need solutions to a long list of fundamental problems. But first we need to get ourselves together as a unified entity instead of a loose knit band of independent critics helping amateur radio commit suicide.

73 Mike

RE Internet info/data/validity.

by W3DCG on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Question the validity part regardless of whether it is a book or on the internet, no? Yeah.

I agree there is much information on the web, however, I have found some things in the few books I have, that I could not find on the Internet.

I like the Internet.
However, cyperspace is too easily manipulated.
We might ask ourselves will the day ever arrive when books made on paper or something like it, will be completely replaced by cyber-media.

I sure hope not. An old fashioned book, is more reliable, and works in a variety of environments, often more resilient to splashes of coffee, extreme temperatures hot or cold.

It takes more energy to publish a real book.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Eric, I could beat the horse into the ground on Mr. Segal's "Code" but, I only ask that you look at the wording in terms of its socialist slant.

My point being, any organization that would promote such a text, and its stated goals, (which they have been repeatedly re-printing since at least the publication of my 1948 Handbook)) is beyond suspicion.They proclaim this code, and all of its careful wording, to be a good thing -- that we the MEMBERSHIP would be wise to follow.

They are enablers to the decline we have seen, and they are even duplicitous in their motivations. I could elaborate on this point but, for many who have known the ARRL's methods over the decades, I suspect it is not necessary.

RE: RE Internet info/data/validity.

by WB2WIK on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Re "Star Trek" and "Gilligan's Island" stuff:

My favorite wireless DX communicator was built by "E.T." in that film: Using an old phonograph player, a hacksaw blade and some nylon fishing line, that guy was finally able to "phone home."

Indeed there were hams working on that film.

I've tried to replicate the E.T. Communicator several times, but I keep hearing old Perry Como songs with it...

WB2WIK/6

My Opinion

by N3AIU on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH:

I could not have put it so eloquently, although I'm pretty sure that I don't say or even imply that newbies are dummies.

We need a real entry license class (Novice) for amateur radio. It's then up to the rest of us to get a significant fraction of those interested in the many other aspects of our hobby so that they can upgrade: electronics/antenna experimentation, digital modes, DXing, contesting, CW, SSTV/ATV, Es/tropo/aurora/meteor propagation, moonbounce, etc. etc. etc. There's lots of technical content involved with those topics! After all, amateur radio is more than talking on repeaters, which is no better than a cell phone anymore.

I don't think that I've missed the point of this thread at all. The higher class licenses definitely need to have significant technical content. I believe that you should earn additional privileges. I just think that we got to "get 'em hooked" on amateur radio with a Novice-like exam. When they see other neat stuff to do, there will be incentive to upgrade and become good hams we can all be proud of.

Do I live in a fantasy world? Yes. As a matter of fact, I refuse to accept your reality and substitute my own.

73, Nick N3AIU

RE: My Opinion

by N4GI on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>>As far as the code goes I say fare thee well , it give's me a headache.The sooner it's gone the better !!<<<

Stock up on Tylenol, om.

N4GI

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Nick N3AIU comments:

"We need a real entry license class (Novice) for amateur radio. It's then up to the rest of us to get a significant fraction of those interested in the many other aspects of our hobby so that they can upgrade: electronics/antenna experimentation, digital modes, DXing, contesting, CW, SSTV/ATV, Es/tropo/aurora/meteor propagation, moonbounce, etc. etc. etc. There's lots of technical content involved with those topics! After all, amateur radio is more than talking on repeaters, which is no better than a cell phone anymore."

So what was really wrong with the original Novice License? It provided just such an entry point. It was intended for the beginner with no technical knowledge. It provied enough access to allow the person to get hooked. The original Novice licence was for ONE YEAR and was not renewable. It should probably be extended to a couple of years. Maybe even five years. But keep it non-renewable.

The current NC Tech license has become the replacement for the Novice license. And it makes the entry level more complex than necessary for someone that just wants to use a unit like a 2M FM tranciever on the repeaters.

I really don't think the people at the ARRL really have a clue about the direction of the service(HOBBY).

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

My Opinion

by K0RGR on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

It's too bad that so many people believe this way.

It is way past time to stop worrying about what other people know. It is not constructive, and it only tears at the fabric of the service.

If you are concerned that ham radio is going the way of the do-do bird, it is time for you to get off your rapidly fossilizing keaster, and try to find something positive you can do, instead of being an irritant.

I'm fed up with it.

Can't we focus this web site on efforts to improve the service without all the crabs dragging it down? A crab is someone who is miserable and wants to grab onto you, hoping that you will help them to float. But instead, they usually only succeed in dragging you down to the bottom with them.

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

There's a direct correlation between using CW and maintaining a continued interest and license in amateur radio, as proven by the "old" Novice license to which you refer.

The original Novice ticket was CW privileges only (except for a portion of 2m "phone," which back then was predominantly AM and point-to-point with no repeaters), 75W DC power input restriction, crystal-controlled transmitters only allowed. And as you pointed out, it was a one-year, non-renewable ticket. Part of the requirement to upgrade was to verify station activity via a recorded log of operations, which back then was a station requirement for all American hams, anyway. No activity, no new license. The code test wasn't "receive only," but both receive and transmit -- required.

Under those conditions, the large majority of all Novices did upgrade, which they had to in order to maintain any amateur license. And most did so after having completed CW contacts on the air. Most of the original Novices from the 1960s are either still licensed and active today, or dead! I'm in the former group, along with a hundred or two thousand others.

CW was archaic and technologically obsolete in the 1960s, just as it is today: So, that really hasn't changed. What has changed is that back then, nobody complained about learning it and using it, and now they do.

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

This thread has gotten lost and confused in to many disperate ideas. The question of code proficiency was not a part of the original question. The question posed was that of TECHNICAL proficiency in the current exam.

Some folks who responded have evidently not read all of the postings. Some very good and cridible arguments were made concerning genuine technical skill and proficiency.

For W8MW, even though I don't find that callsign in the QRZ database, Mike, we used to be a lot more united! We have always functioned as competitive individuals as we pursued our radio EXPERTISE but, we were unified as a brotherhood. That has only been recently threatened by those that simply don't comprehend what the rest of us are talking about.
With a diminshed capacity to understand the physics of radio, many will think it boils down to knowing which button to push, or which circuit board to pull and replace. A real knowledge of the physics of radio and electronics entails much more!

I do agree with your point in the sence that business loves to see us bicker amongst ourselves. So, whats the solution?

I think it may be for those who think that fully functional radio can be automated or 'programmed' need to look into some of the "Elmer'ing" resources available. When you hear some Ham (probably an older Ham) say something that just goes over your head, sit him down and ask him about the concepts, or precepts that go along with what he just said!

I do agree with the idea, 'can't we all just get along' but, I'm fearful the answer may be NO. We will unfortunately never again see a Novice license. The FCC wanted to simplify their paperwork load, and the ARRL said, YESSIR! The FCC wanted to simplify the testing process, and the ARRL -- as well as other sellers of study guides said OhYea!

If todays Ham's don't ask themselves if they have that 'fire in their belly' that Ham's did of an earlier age, we probably won't see eye to eye and get along. I hope to see Ham radio at least survive my life span but, I don't count on it.

My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

To all the friggin’ (not my first word choice) hypocrites who use the word “RICEBOX” in their posts:

I dare you to walk into your own living room and find a TV, VCR, DVD Player, or Stereo Set that isn’t made in Asia!

Take your arrogant attitude and shove it somewhere dark!

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Kent Carroll KB9YZL comments:

"To all the friggin’ (not my first word choice) hypocrites who use the word “RICEBOX” in their posts:

I dare you to walk into your own living room and find a TV, VCR, DVD Player, or Stereo Set that isn’t made in Asia!"

There are many OF hams that at one time were employed in the electronics industry. I spent 15 years as a Telemetry Engineer working for the USAF and NASA. In the 1980s I moved to the computer industy. Most of us have seen our employment OUTSOURCED to Asia.

And I DO HAVE AN ATTITUDE ABOUT THAT. I glad I was able to retire when my last job was OUTSOURCED in 1998.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by W2DUG on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"A well thought out thought's for a change.As for the bad manners on the air wave's what does anyone expect with the lanquage that is tolerated on commercial station's and television.Folk's i think if i hear the word freedom of speech in support of bad manner's and vulgarity once more i'll Vomit."

If I see you use a lower case "i" for the first person subjective pronoun or pluralize with apostrophes one more time I think I'LL vomit...

-----------

"All i'll add is we are now dealing with liberalized rule's and sadly a society that is becoming far to tolerant of immoral conduct."

What we are too tolerant of is the level of illiteracy we find here and most places on the Web.

------------

"And i'm afraid the more the use of God and the ten commandment's are barred publicly the worse thing's will be period......."

Uh...yeah...that's relevant...

Honestly, you might have made a good point or two here, but frankly I can't get past the 2nd grade writing to see it. Please try harder next time.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by SFD301 on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>>Face facts before you break your arms patting yourself on the back. It is far easier and requires far less skill today to become an Extra than it did to become a General 25 years ago. There are quite a few Extra's today who can't and won't even build a simple dipole.<<<<<

No need to pat myself on the back now, did that when I learned most of this stuff in HS. No offense, but 4 pages is 4 pages! Read it a few times, and how many questions could they have come up with? What was the average education level in 1958 compared to today?

RE: My Opinion

by K6BBC on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

RICEBOX!!! Is this offensive to Japanese people? Give me A FRIGGIN break. I think many need to develop a thicker skin.

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>>>Four page license manual? Do you mean four pages for the Novice ticket? In the 1950s the ARRL license manual covered all classes of ham license. I think there were about 150 questions on the Extra segment alone, probably covered six pages or more. And perhaps 50 questions, with essay answers, on the Novice section. Yes, I think it WAS four pages - maybe for the General section, even, maybe 100 questions, with explanations of the answers. But to suggest the manual was four pages is ludicrous. It had four pages at least of just plain introduction.<<<

I gave my reference to the fact, go pick up the mag and look for yourself. I'd rather see a reference from you than a darn guess!

RE: My Opinion

by W2DUG on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"My theory is, a good Ham today should know the merits of a given J-FET or, MOS-FET, and an appreciation of the noise floor at the desired frequencies."

-----------

I wouldn't disagree, but is it necessary for the ham to know that before he gets his license, or is it more appropriate for him to learn it once he can apply it and compare notes with other hams?

My view is: Getting a license should be the starting point for gaining more practical knowledge, not the ending point that tests whether you know it all already.

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<< SFD301, what's your callsign?

And if you're in the city where television broadcast was invented, I presume you're either in Scotland (Baird, in his labs in 1926 gave the first TV demo) or in Whippany, NJ, where Bell Telephone Labs made their first television wireless transmission in 1927?

WB2WIK/6<<<

Opps, should have said that I live in the city that the first commercial broadcast television was done.

KC2NMX

My Opinion

by N3AIU on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K5MYJ: So what was really wrong with the original Novice License? It provided just such an entry point.

Nothing. I think that we need one.

Being a 75W/CW-only Novice was a good experience for me, in terms of learning operating procedures, electronics, propagation, and regulations. Of course, 75W/CW-only would never fly today, so we would have to come up with something new (other than the present Tech license).

Unfortunately, we will probably never see Novice licenses again.

Am I off topic? Probably. But it's free.

73, Nick N3AIU

RE: My Opinion

by SFD301 on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<<<<
SFD301 - Great! You actually saw the 4 page license manuals. I never said I doubted you. I just said it was before my time, then explained why it was probably true. We're actually in violent agreement.<<<

lol, ;)

My Opinion

by PHINEAS on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Techincal know how, nor code have nothing to do with anything. I don't think even a seasoned tech would open up their 7800(10000 dollar +) to do any more than clip it for MARS. Most people would just send the radio back to the factory, and pay them to fix it.

Another thing people forget is as easy as the Technician test is, there are alot of smart people that will not take the test. Just the fact that a person would bother puts them ahead of the average person in the radio world. It also takes alot for a person to give up a little of their privacy. Remember, any person can just look up your info over the internet.

Third of all, not everyone gets into amatuer radio for the same reason. CW is a prime example. Just because an older extra 30 years ago passed a 20WPM test does not mean all of them can still work at that speed. Code was just a hurdle. Some people make it over the hump, some didnt, some just did not want to.

The problem with amatuer radio as it stands now is direction on new hams, and the fact that the system is not set up to encourage good radio practices. All you hear new hams do is get on repeaters, and pass the code to get on HF. There is not a lot of ensentive for new amateurs to stay a Tech for a while, and learn more about antennas, build widgets. All these new amateurs do is rag chew on a repeater(usually the same one), then take those habits to HF. THen what do they do, go straight to a frequency and hang out. Just like on the repeater. Instead of working with their antennas, they just use a crummy G5RV, and buy a 1500+ watt amplifier.

Just my .02

Phineas
K0KMA

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Phineas, you made some good points.

I hope to chat with you once again on 12m if the band ever opens again! The way things have been going, I won't hold my breath...

What's different about "nowadays" compared to "yesteryear?" On the ham bands, a lot. One thing that hasn't change much is that 40 years ago there were still a**holes on the bands mucking things up, and yep, here we are 40 years later, and we still have them. Mostly new ones, but some might be the same ones from 40 years ago.

But the "dumbing down" process is widespread and clearly evident in the operating style of many. Not a day goes by that I don't hear guys calling "CQ" in the most inappropriate manners possible. Last night on 40 meters, I heard one fellow call CQ as, "CQ CQ CQ KC6XYZ CQ CQ." That was it. No phonetics, no location, no "end" of the transmission. Just CQ as the last phrase, and let go of the button. No "Um, I'm listening now, if you'd like to call me." No nothing.

No wonder he didn't get any answers.

I honestly *never* heard this stuff in the sixties, and I was quite active back then.

I think a major difference is that "back then" new hams really did buy the Operating Manuals and read them. And they listened for weeks, months -- maybe years -- before they transmitted, to help assure they wouldn't sound like nincompoops when they finally did transmit.

The internet is a poor proctor. Then, like television, it's also a lousy babysitter.

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Phineas, I would not expect most Hams these days to crawl inside their very tightly engineered, surface mount component radio but, that has not been the point in the narative of this discussion! As K0BG said, as he posed his original question in this post, "nothing is a substitute for education".

He was not I think referring to ones ability to solder, or even know which diode to snip as in your example. He was though referring I think as to knowing how and why that diode was used in that application.

How about this, how many Ham's that have been licensed for the last 10 years could write a decent paper on, "The Sun Spot Cycle, and F-layer Ionospheric Propagation". How many could give an accurate discription or Ham club presentation on, "E-layer Ionosheric Siganal Proapagation, -- and How We Can Still Work DX -- even in The Decline of the Sun Spot Cycle". How many of these 10 year licensed Hams do you think could count off on their fingers the different methods that allow for signal propagation of RF on frequencies across our Ham spectrum?

These thoughts and concepts have nothing to do with soldering, and only marginally with a consideration of a few particular electronic radio components. In my experience, over the last 15 years operating an Elmer Net on the radio and otherwise prompting such discussions and seminars, I have met no one that had this knowledge in that time span! Of the Ham's I know that can speak to such subjects, better than 99% have been licensed as long as I have, or longer.

John WA6BFH
PS
12 Meters has been open recently, due to the relative Earth/Sun position, and a peak in the Solar Indices.

RE: My Opinion

by W9OY on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I always pretty much thought of ham radio as a whole bunch of hobbies under one label. Over the years many different aspects of our hobby have interested and intrigued me. My earliest experience was 160M swl on an old AC/DC broadcast band receiver my grandpa gave me that I jiggered up to receive 1.8 mhz when I was 6 or so. Shocked the heck out of myself playing with that rig.

What drove me in those days was that there were a couple of high school kids who had 160M mobile AM rigs in their jalopies and I could listen to them zipping around my Chicagoland neighborhood after school. I just HAD to get me one of those rigs. It wasn't their gentlemanly character that drove me it was the fact a couple of all American high school kids a few years older than me, were having a blast with Ham radio. By age 7 I learned the code up to 5 wpm. Next I built a Knight Kit Band Spanner superregen rx, under the watchful eye of my Dad, and I could sometimes hear friggin Canada. I got a subscription to Popular Electronics for Christmas and couldn’t wait each month for Herb Briar to write the Carl and Jerry column. Next I saved and saved all my dough and got a Hallicrafters S-40B. The entire 40M band occupied 3/8 of an inch on the dial. The pieste-resistance was a heath kit Q multiplier. Man could I make that rig squeal. Team that up with my 50W 6146 crystal controlled transmitter, and a knife switch to change the dipole between rx and tx, and I was dangerous!! Since then, I've been on every thing from 540khz to 2ghz at one time or another running everything from 2mw to 50kw (commercial) and none of it has been boring.

The hobby got me into engineering school and I made a good living in electronics for a while as well as teaching it in college before making a career change. When I was in the 4th grade I gave a presentation to my class about my hobby. My presentation inspired one of my classmates to go on and get his ham ticket. I never knew that my little presentation had the slightest effect on him or anyone else, until about 35 years later when we met on the air, and he told me how it had spurred him on. When I was in 7th grade another guy I knew got interested, and he got his license and went on to get into broadcasting by age 16. And so it goes.

I never met the 160M guys in my neighborhood, and had they met me they wouldn't have known what to do with a 6 year old kid, but I have always been grateful for being able to share their RADIO FUN on my jerry-rigged AC/DC set. They changed my life.

Bring em on, some percentage will go on to expand their horizons and it is through them the hobby will propagate. If it gets too crowded with the helots just learn CW and go hide out down on the low end of 40. If you want the hobby to grow, it's simple get on 160M AM mobile and

SHARE YOUR RADIO FUN WITH SOMEONE.

Of course today with all the friggin band plans you'll have your head handed to you by the "gentlemen" there, for not being official and authentic and in ARRL compliance, and they will probably call you a CBer but what the heck... you too will be propagating the hobby. You want to really honk em off modulate the crystal oscillator in your AM rig a tiny little bit and you can FM and AM at the same time! Makes em foam at the mouth.

73 W9OY

RE: My Opinion

by W6TH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I am so happy that I received my ham ticket back in 1938. Talk of all the joy working young boys my age and younger. The six and nine and younger hams were a joy to work, although I was at the age of 15, could not wait till I got out of school and put my home made radio receiver and transmitter on the air.

I built my first receiver at the age of 11 and the transmitter long before that. My knowledge gained in electronics was due to the many QST mags that I studied; no need for elmers as the books were self explanitory and educational.

I am happy I didn't lose out by having computers or television and other sources to destroy my lifes fun.

Eat your hearts out fellow hams and kiss the world goodbye.

.: 73 W6TH.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> 1st Class Commercial? Forgive my ignorance on this
> subject, but was this the same as the 1st Class
> Radiotelephone or Radiotelegraph License?

telephone. Usually called 'first phone'.

> From the study manual I remember seeing, I'd say the
> material was NOT easy to say the least.

It struck me as fairly straightforward and relatively easy. But then, I've never been in awe of FCC examiners, either.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> The IARU states that its difficult to be accurate
> since many of these countries dont report the true
> number of licensees

Having read Speroni's analysis of Japanese individual versus station licenses, it has become very clear that the IARU numbers are very overinflated.

RE: RE Internet info/data/validity.

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> It takes more energy to publish a real book.

And yet, there are a lot of real books full of nonsense claiming to be fact.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> My theory is, a good Ham today should know the
> merits of a given J-FET or, MOS-FET, and an
> appreciation of the noise floor at the desired
> frequencies.

I disagree. What, after all, does it mean to 'know the merits of'? Are you suggesting that hams read reviews of these parts and base their knowledge on the reviews? That's no different than reading brief blurbs that say 'use this preamp under <mumble> circumstances. Same thing is true if they base their knowledge on reading thte data sheets for the parts, although with less reliability.

Most hams don't need to know any more than 'use this preamp under <mumble> circumstances', and the best way for many of them to learn that is by getting on the air and experiencing.

The only hams that would need to know the relative merits of specific parts would be the handful who actually use those parts to design with.

RE: RE Internet info/data/validity.

by W6TH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

We did not have novice back then. the tests were what was written in the ARRL handbooks as to capacitance, inductance and both AC and DC theory. Entrance into the FCC test was taken what was learned from the ARRL handbook this will give you some idea.

The extra class license was very close to the First Class Radiotelephone. In fact I believe it was, because I had no problem passing both the 20 wpm and the theory without any previous study for the exam as I had already had my 1st class ticket.

Theory tests were very easy for me, because I just loved this ham radio stuff; still do. I never hurt the one I love.

.: 73 from the station heard around the world. W6TH.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP comments:

"The only hams that would need to know the relative merits of specific parts would be the handful who actually use those parts to design with."

And I think this thread sows that hams that do any designing or homebrewing anymore are in the minority!

Many of the most valuable contibutions to the state of the art were made by hams. Art Collins gave us SSB. It was adapted from a telephone tecnique used by the underwater phone cable systems. Gen. Curtis LeMay saw the adavntage of SSB and got the military to use it. Both of these people did this as hams even though they had greater professional responsabilities.

And both these people could also work CW when they needed to. At the time that Curtis LeMay was the Commader of the Stratigic Air Command all SAC airplanes (except the fighters) prior to the B-47 carried a radio operator that had to be able to use CW at 15WPM. I know as I was there.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I guess this was a better example than I might have thought.

I was thinking in terms of the relative Kelvin temperature noise level on given portions of radio spectrum, and also the use of these different amplifiers pursuant both to considerations of this noise floor, as well as potential intermodulation distortion.

I will have to look back, I mght have combined these concepts in two convergent postings.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Oh, and the parts are already in these guys radios. It was the knowledge of the band conditions, and the physics involved with the signal propagation that was my main point!

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K5MYJ wrote:

>>”There are many OF hams that at one time were employed in the electronics industry. I spent 15 years as a Telemetry Engineer working for the USAF and NASA. In the 1980s I moved to the computer industy. Most of us have seen our employment OUTSOURCED to Asia.

And I DO HAVE AN ATTITUDE ABOUT THAT. I glad I was able to retire when my last job was OUTSOURCED in 1998.””<<

Well, well!!………………..Do you really think you’re the only one who had a job that has been affected by Outsourcing? Get Real!

If you feel that strongly about it, write your Congressman and Senator……They’re the guys who did it to you!

My only point is that you can all stop bashing the consumer in 2004 for buying a “Ricebox”! After all, what other choice is there, other than antiques?

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For K5MYJ, my point would be that, knowing these things, a Ham is better equpped to think for himself, should I buy a TS-440, or a TS-690. Or, does this radio give me a choice of front-end amplifiers, or does it simply dump all signals straight into the mixer.

Of course, how many Hams of the the last 10 years know what a mixer stage, or a front-end amplifier is?

My Opinion

by W8FAX on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Well, with all the blah blah about what the newer hams want the rest of us to do, and how ham radio should change to meet the times, bands controlled by bandwidth, get on the digital wagon or die, etc etc etc etc etc, we older hams will STILL have something newer guys will NEVER have. We have had the pleasure of being in ham radio when it really WAS something. It was a brotherhood mostly (very few YL/XYL types)and everyone was ready to help each other. It was staying up late on a school night with headphones on trying to make SOME kind of DX contact with XTAL control. It was scraping cash together to buy some wire, a needed tube, or even a used rig from some older feller. It was visiting the local club and listening to stories of DX, and building amps, and antennas. It was meeting and making friends your own age a few times a week somewhere on one of the bands. This was when radio was IT. No computers, no satelites,no echo link, no PSK, not much SSB, no no-code-techs, no repeaters. You studied to upgrade from a novice within a year or you were out. Simple. Before incentive licensing, the higher class ticket holders, general and above, had no special priveleges, but were proud to hold those levels just because. No crying about "it's too hard"...."it's not FAIR"...."I shouldn'y have to LEARN________". Those days are gone now for good or bad, it's true. But new hams will NEVER understand when old timers group together and start talking of those days. They would rather call us out of date. OF's, and stamp their feet because we don't agree with them. Oh well...........I was THERE........................

RE: My Opinion

by N1ZHE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

IMHO, too many today are members of the "poptart" generation. They want it now and they want it without too much hassle.

Unfortunately radio does not hold the same allure that it did a few decades past.

Enter the internet. Easy. Now. Ham radio? Finicky propagation? Buy lots of expensive radios (nothing but the best!) and install unsightly antennas? Why bother?

David, N1ZHE

Opinions

by NC2W on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

In years past, the phrase was:

"No Kids, No 'K's', no 'WA's'... Welcome to the net". That additude is as true then, as it is now. Let's kill it.

Think no one knows what a 'front end amplifier' is. Yes, that is partially true. Let's get out, and explain how a modern transceiver works. Let's explain those things. At the very least, there will be one less person to complain about. At the most, someone will use that knowledge, and thirst for more.

RE: Opinions

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

No Kids, no K's, no WA's .... now there is a concept that I bet few here will understand!

I was one of those K's, uh, that is, I held a Technician license, even while I was issued a WA6 callsign (all Technician licensee's of this era were issued K6ABC etc).

For those who don't get this mans point. Technician licensee's were looked down upon. Afterall, they were just VHF'ers, and couldn't talk to any real DX. HF was where it was at!!!!!

Then,,,, K6NLZ worked Hawaii in 1956 -- a pretty nifty feat for the technology of the time. Then too, we started to hear of other VHF, UHF, and SHF accomplishments by those pesky Tech's.

I guess VHF and above isn't just 'line of sight' afterall!

RE: Opinions

by KY1V on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KB9YZL wrote:

"My only point is that you can all stop bashing the consumer in 2004 for buying a “Ricebox”! After all, what other choice is there, other than antiques?"

I have a ricebox...a darn expensive one too. It's an IC-7800 and I love it.

I also have a mint Drake C Line. I love it too!

What's the point?

Blah blah blah...quit your bickerin', get on the air and work some DX!

See you at the bottom of the pile!

David ~ KY1V

Oh, I almost forgot...for all those that live in CC&R restricted neighborhoods, are too poor to buy towers and yagi's or their wives simply say NO GUY WIRES, come on over to my place and operate to your hearts content. No specific class of license required!

Bathing is required!

RE: My Opinion

by W5HTW on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

TO SFD301: My "reference", partner, is I studied that license manual in 1955 and passed the Novice test in early 1956, the Technician test later that same year, and the General in 1957. All from that alleged "four page" License Manual. I used a newer copy of the manual to pass the Advanced in 1968 and the Extra in 1969. Four pages?

Of course, I'm referring to the ARRL license manual, and perhaps you aren't. Clearly we aren't talking about the same book.

Ed

RE: Opinions

by W6TH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I often wondered what it felt like being a novice, tech or anything else besides a class "B" or class "A" licensed ham operator. Please by all means tell me your feelings.

Are many of you boastfull chaps know about front ends and such and can you really know how to design them or are you all braggers?

The best designed transmitter boxes do come from Japan. Why not develope more from America. America sells the Japanese the chips, now what more do you fellow hams want?

.:

RE: Opinions

by NC2W on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Please inform Elecraft of your discovery. They would dispute your claim.

RE: Opinions

by K6BBC on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Vito - W6TH,

I was a Novice in 1968. My first rig was a DX 60, a Mosley CM-1, and an inverted V up 40’ on a wooden “tower” my dad built for me. Being a Novice was the greatest time I ever had in ham radio. I could not wait to get home from school and QSO other kids who were just getting home from school. Those were the day. It saddens me that new hams will never have the experience I was lucky to have.

Somebody said it best. If you were licensed as a Novice during the golden years, you are probably still licensed, or dead.

All the best,

K6BBC

RE: Opinions

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For K6BBC I was one of those Novices, that the bug had firmly and fataly bitten, and yes, I am still a Ham today. I have gone through a few periods of relatively lesser activity, mostly at sunspot minima, but have always kept my license active!

For W6TH, I guess I am also one of those boastful fellows that claims to know how a front-end works!
After I held my Novice for 8 months, time was getting kinda short to upgrade. I was too young to get myself down to Spring Street in LA, and the Ham (a W6) who gave me my Tech test was really pissed that I was not taking my General (No Kid's, no K's, no WA's ya know).

He was surprised that I could not only copy the somewhat faster than 5 WPM he was sending me (I could do 16 WPM with no trouble at all after 8 months of nothing but -- and he was sending at about 10 WPM). He was even more astonished that I sent at a nice clipped 16. When I took the theory exam, he checked it over, to make sure I had passed. Even though he thought I should go for a higher license, I guess he thought I should not be lost to Ham radio. He said, I missed 2 questions, and did I want to correct them? I said, I think I might have missed one but, lets just let it go (I checked later, I might have missed one, -- it was strangely worded).

I have owned several wonderfully designed radios from commercial manufacture (Thank you Bill Halligan and Mr. Drake). I have built a few radios of a design that at least I think was wonderful (HiHi). I have been helped by some truly great Ham's, and they have taught me a bunch (I know what a mixer stage is too)!

RE: Opinions

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Oh, and another thing. In either the late '60's, or early 70's the Japanese stole most of the Integrated Circuit dye designs from Fairchild. Hence, the Japanese got somewhat of a boost to their semi-conductor industry.

Later, about the time the FT-101 came along, Ham's could not believe how good a radio it was, and for such a low price! Collins, Hallicrafters, Drake, Swan and the rest took a big dip. To add insult to injury, this shiny TS-520 came along, it was pretty. It was also a frigg'in intermod box though but, Ham's really liked it. That pretty well put the last nail in the coffin for the American manufacturers (at least Kenwood later came out with the TS-820, and 830... MUCH better radios)!

If you want to buy American, look at TenTec! Hey TenTec, how about coming out with a REALLY GREAT 6 and 2 Meter All-mode. We need a really good and solid I.F. for the higher bands (135 cm to blue light). It needs a nice MOS-FET front-end, and the ability to bypass that amp, to go simply into the mixer. It needs a great noise blanker (like the Drake receiver had), and it needs wonderful filters (I lean toward mechanical myself but, I know you guys are into this funny digital stuff)!

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> And I think this thread sows that hams that do any
> designing or homebrewing anymore are in the
> minority!

I'm not sure if the thread shows it, but I believe it is true.

Of course, it appears to have been always true.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> It was the knowledge of the band conditions, and the
> physics involved with the signal propagation that
> was my main point!

And my reply, at this level is 'so what?' An A/B comparison of the two circuits under real conditions is going to be far more satisfactory to any operaator in practice than a theoretic understanding of the underlying components.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> Of course, how many Hams of the the last 10 years
> know what a mixer stage, or a front-end amplifier
> is?

About the same percentage as ever.

RE: My Opinion

by W6TH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

All very nice post of interest.

What Ten Tec needs is a competitive selling price. Like giving more for the money and better.

You can bet that the American dollar is behind the Japanese market on ham radio and such. If a radio can come along as well as the Icom 718, which is a terrific radio for the going price, I am sure it will increase the selling. Just check who owns the Ten TEC radios and when a W4 gets in a qso with you, you can bet your last dollar he/she will be owning a TEN TEC. I have yet to hear a W4 with a different kind of radio.

Now for the novice hams, yes I can imagine the excitement and yes cw only of course, no wonder we have so many good old novice class operators of the past. Never say die.

I was never against the K, WA, etc., calls, especially when they were cw operators. Never had much use for the phone bands, was not as exciting as cw.

I believe now that I may have missed something not being a novice and I will never know.

.: 73 fellows from the station heard round the world. W6TH.

RE: Opinions

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP, I found it!

It was my comment in answer to your thoughts on the history of radio design, back to WW1, WW2 etc.

I said, a good technician of that era (and good engineers were good electronic technicians and ALWAYS Ham's) would have to know the Tranconductance of the various available tubes. I assummed that you would understand this to describe or derive the best benefit from that device for its relative gain, noise figure, bias/coupling considerations, and a few other facts.

If these days a good Ham knows that a J-Fet might be a perfectly fine amplifier at 6 Meters (considering the Kelvin noise floor of that wavelength) that can influence his choice in a radio purchase, and its use.
He might though consider that what he needs is not only the gain of that J-fet but, the signal to noise ratio capability of a MOS-FET.

There are other considerations as well but, all of this knowledge lets him quickly go through the latest design radios on the market, and scratch the ones off the list that just don't cut it!

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hrrrrmmph, it appears that some other feedback came through as I was updating my last response!

For AE6IP again, our friendly Ham can't always make such 'real-time' assessments. Not unless Mother nature listens at his beck and call.

VHF work is like fishing. You can fish, but you don't always catch the signals you want, cause often, they just ain't there! Even if they are, the band may not be showing the same local intermod sources that may at other times occur.

And besides, I can't afford to buy every radio model that gets built, that MIGHT do what I want and need. I can only read the spec's, look at the schematic, and ask the manufacturer about anything that is still illuding me.

THEN I CAN GO OUT AND BUY THAT REALLY NIFTY TENTEC RADIO OF MY DREAMS!

My Opinion

by G5FSD on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Don't look back with rose-tinted glasses and forget that there has ALWAYS been poor behaviour on the bands.

The few spoil things for the many, and that has always been the case.. and always will be. Kinda makes you proud to be a part of humanity, doesn't it? ;o)

The whole point of the amateur licence is that it's a learning excercise.. the licence allows you onto the lowest rung of the ladder, so that you can start climbing it. Making tests easier just allows you onto the ladder more easily - a good thing IMHO. Some people are then content to stay at the bottom of that ladder BUT that's up to them - it's their hobby. If they break their licence conditions then take action against them, but don't stop people getting onto the ladder, or in the long term less of us will rise up the thing!

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by WB8WOR on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Even at the technician level, if you don't understand how radio works, you bring nothing to the table that isn't already served by current public service and commercial resources.

Think the police and fire departments appreciate us for just being there? We're just more of the same ghouls, wannabes, and looky-loos that get in the way at every incident.

Where we have it over the other resources is that we understand why we can't reach the farthest corner of the county, and fix it quickly.

Button-pushing knob-twisters just give up and say it can't be done.

RE: Opinions

by W1VT on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I found that bipolar transistors in a lossless feedback circuit can yield acceptable performance. My homebrew 6M SSB/CW rig has a two tone IMD DR of 99 dB with an 8 dB NF and a +15 dBm 3rd order input intercept.

RE: Opinions

by W5ESE on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

W6TH
----

vito,

> I often wondered what it felt like being a novice,
> tech or anything else besides a class "B" or class
> "A" licensed ham operator. Please by all means tell
> me your feelings.

my experience parallels k6bbc's.

i passed the novice at 14, late in 1975 (was
'wn5rmq'), and received the license in 1976. i
had a second hand heathkit mohawk receiver, and
homebrewed a 1 tube power oscillator (6146), about
18 watts input to the plate. i was kind of a dumb
kid and put up an 80 meter inverted vee (fed with
rg58), which i used on 80 & 40. (took me a long
time to figure out why i seemed to have better
luck on 80. a fan dipole would have helped alot!)

even in the mid 70's, there were very few hams
my age; most were much older.

it was *incredibly* fun! after all these years, it
still seems a little like magic to solder something
together and then put it on the air.

> Somebody said it best. If you were licensed as
> a Novice during the golden years, you are
> probably still licensed, or dead.

agreed. it was an entry-level license done "the
right way".

73
scott w5ese
nj0e 1985-2004
wb5rmq 1976-1985
wn5rmq 1976

RE: My Opinion

by W5ESE on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SFD301
------

> gave my reference to the fact, go pick up the mag
> and look for yourself. I'd rather see a reference
> from you than a darn guess!

i don't subscribe to 'cq', so i can't. but i can
assure you that the arrl license manual was not 4
pages long. maybe they meant the section of
questions and answers for the novice license. but
the font size was very small, each page had two
columns of text, and, unlike today, the entire
question pool was not published.

in 1977, the fcc-published outline of topics
covered on the advanced class exam (which i still
have) was perhaps 4 pages long. i used it in
conjunction with an arrl handbook to study for
the advanced.

73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by KB9YZL on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB8WOR said:

>>”Think the police and fire departments appreciate us for just being there? We're just more of the same ghouls, wannabes, and looky-loos that get in the way at every incident.”<<

Sounds to me like you’ve been “Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places”.

If you live anywhere near the Heartland, try contacting your local OEM, and ask if they want volunteers for their Severe Weather Spotter Net: The chances are you’ll be welcomed with open arms! (….And it won’t matter if you’re “Knob-Turner” or another Nikola Tesla!)

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by K3UD on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

As I look back over the almost 40 years of being a ham, It is difficult to reflect on just how non technical and unprepared I was to go on the air after receiving my Novice ticket in late 1964.

I knew nothing about antennas except that if you hung a wire outside and ran it to a certain place on a receiver, you could hear things that you could not hear without the wire. I knew nothing about a dipole, let alone how to make one.

I had a DX-40 transmitter and tried the wire through the window approach, stuffing one end into the center of the DX-40's SO-239. Had no clue as to how to tune the transmitter and just "tuned" for max meter reading. Had one crystal for 80 meters and for several weeks called CQ and wondered why, even though I could hear my signal on the receiver, no one else could.

Back then, the equipment was not "plug and play" you had to actually know something about how to use it and I knew eseentially nothing.

But....somehow I started to learn things and acquire skills and technical knowledge, primarily because I had to in order to realize my 3 year old dream of being able to get on the air and make contacts through the magical medium of radio. It took a little time to get sorted out, but the payoff was worth it.

If you start out with nothing, the only way is up.

73
George
K3UD

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by WB2WIK on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

These long threads must be indicative of poor band conditions.

But they got better over the past day or two. 15-17-20 were open until well after dark yesterday, and 40 is back to its old self.

Push aside the keyboards, boys (and girls?) and get back on the air...

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W6TH on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Thanks to all for the information as to being a novice. From what I read, the novice was exactly as what I had gone through being a class "B" operator. That is building your own transmitter and putting up a antenna and not knowing much of what you were doing.

My power indicator was a number 47 pilot lamp in series with the antenna and tuned for the brightest. We didn't actually tune, but used the single wire feed and tapped the coil for the brightest. I built all my ham gear from the tuned radio frequency radios of the time.

Looks like the novice operators were also pioneers of the old days. Quite different from the new hams of today.

.: 73 W6TH

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by PHINEAS on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB2WIK/6
First, yeah lets get back on the radio!!!!

Second, radio habits are based on the habits of the support group that you are around. Places like Cleveland OH are a prime example of that. Some of the most high tech technicians class people I ever met live there. The support groups for VHF plus are there.
Here in St.Louis is just like many places. The ol get your code and get on HF ASAP crowd. If someone would have exposed me to the facts about propagation, and antennas, I would have had a totally different point of view about upgrading to a general. My observation is the better the Technician, the better HF operator they will be when they upgrade. It is too bad that as a community we are more focused on upgrading than teaching people to make the most of their privilages.

WA6BFH
What you say about propagation is dead on the money! The minute someone on a local repeater says the bands are dead, then noone gets on to see for themselves. I cant tell you haw many times I have worked DX stations when the band was dead(2,6,10,12 meters). All because most people don't understand different forms of propagation. Or not even try! Nothing burns me up more than to hear a beacon, but the band has no activity.

I gave a young man I know a VX1r. He complained about it being a half watt radio, that he could do nothing with. With all of the old timers around, you would have thought they would have told him how to make a simple yagi. Well, after I showed hime how to make a 4 element yagi, he really stated having fun with the radio. This was a lesson that taught him that the better the antenna, the better the range. Watts are only gravy. This is a prime example of what I am talking about. This young man(13) is already a general, but you see my point?

Phineas
K0KMA

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W5ESE on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

phineas
-------

> I gave a young man I know a VX1r. He complained
> about it being a half watt radio, that he could
> do nothing with.

if i gave some 13 year old a yaesu vx1r, and they
came back complaining about it, i'd probably avoid
having anything more to do with them.

when i was 13, i would have thanked someone had
they offered me such a nice gift. that's the way
i was taught to behave. i think that was fairly
normal 30 years ago.

73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by KI4CYB on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Seeing hams bickering against each other surely will attract new hams into the hobby!

Nice job and keep up the good work...

KI4CYB /AE

My Opinion

by KE4ZHN on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Nice article Alan. I personally feel that testing cannot be a filter of any kind. It never has been and never will. The problem lies in the people themselves. Society has taken a turn for the worse and people just dont seem to care about anything but themselves anymore. This attitude reflects on the air as well as in general day to day society. Courtesy and respect have gone by the wayside in favor of rude arrogant obnoxious behavior. Technical knowledge while being a good thing, has no affect on the amateurs on air demeanor. The fellow could be the most brilliant electronics genius on the planet, and still act like a jack ass on the air.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by PHINEAS on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

w5ese Scott

It is not like he said it was junk...lol He just could not figure out what to do with it. Besides, a gift is only as good as how the reciever recieves it. It is almost like giving a guitar player a flute without any music lessons. THe guitarist would appreciate the gift, but if he has no idea how to use it, than the gift is useless. I am sure he appreciated the radio, he just need a few lessons.

Hence, my point about amateur radio. Technician Class = gift with no lessons. Some people will be self taught, some will need a little more support. That was my point.

As far as bickering, this is actually one of the more mello threads I have seen in a long time.

Phineas
K0KMA

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W5ESE on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

phineas

> I am sure he appreciated the radio, he just need
> a few lessons.

ah, got ya. i'm glad to hear this; i didn't pick up on
this up from your original post. i hope your friend has
alot of fun with the vx1r you gave him.

> As far as bickering, this is actually one of the
> more mello threads I have seen in a long time.

i agree.

73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by W5ESE on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

phineas

> I am sure he appreciated the radio, he just need
> a few lessons.

ah, got ya. i'm glad to hear this; i didn't pick up on
this up from your original post. i hope your friend has
alot of fun with the vx1r you gave him.

> As far as bickering, this is actually one of the
> more mello threads I have seen in a long time.

i agree.

73
scott w5ese

My Opinion

by K1CJS on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Unfortunately, one of the reasons that the dumbing down comments and the dying comments are prevalent is the fact that people nowadays are not as friendly with their neighbors and others as they were years ago. Time constraints on many leave them little time to socialize with others.

More and more we hear that people are spending more time working, doing everyday chores and trying to make ends meet (more often than not with second jobs) than they have available to socialize, let alone actually mentoring and even being on the radio for extended lengths of time. Those that do are probably spending most of their time contesting.

Its just a sad fact of life nowadays, and really has nothing to do with ham radio itself, if you stop and really look at it.

RE: My Opinion - "Dittio"

by WA6BFH on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Phineas, If this young Ham, or others you know might need a few ideas, send them to:

www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2775

That is the web site of the Tech Bench Elmers ARS

He will find a good deal of information on antennas, propagation, science and all kinds of Ham stuff!

73! de John

RE: My Opinion

by K3OWZ on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SFD301 wrote:

"Dumbed down compared to what era? In the current November CQ, p. 16 is a great interview with Jim
Wiley, KL7CC. He is the new chair of the NCVEC question pool committee. There is an excellent view
regarding the current state of HAM radio, but the most interesting is the take on this so called dumbing down of the questions and direction of licensing. In 1958 the ARRL License manual was aprox 4 pages, yep 4 PAGES in length."
--------------------------------------------------------
Actually...

1957 ARRL License Manual...119 pages, pages 81-119 are advertisements.

1968 ARRL License Manual...120 pages, pages 92-120 are advertisements.

1971 ARRL License Manual...112 pages, pages 100-112 are advertisements.

The rest of these manuals' pages are devoted to rules, regulations, typical questions (not multiple guess) and answers (paragraphs, not one-liners) pertaining to the indivdual license classes, and information about the station license.

Yes, today's license requirements have been dumbed down, both technically, and for Morse code proficiency.

I might add that the alleged difficulty of both the technical requirements and Morse code requirements before dumbing down happened, did not prevent thousands of housewives, truck drivers, insurance salesmen, i.e., non-technically oriented people, from working for and earning their licenses.

73,
K3OWZ

RE: My Opinion

by WU3U on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Gentlemen:

The simple fact of the matter is this: Hams are not as technically proficient because by and large, our equipment is reliable and commercially made.

In years past, this was not the case.

The average Ham spent half his time either building something or repairing something and the other half operating.

The license was a starting point not an end in and of itself. It was cheaper to build many things, hence most Hams did so and thereby received the "hands on" experience that no book can teach.

Here in Philadelphia, OTs tell me that there was a strip of radio surplus stores on Arch Street, our equivalent of "Radio Row" in New York City.

You could take a schematic to a number of those stores, hand it to the clerk, and he'd fill you an order with most or even all the parts necessary to build that circuit.

Much of it was surplus, plentiful, and cheap.

This made it feasible to construct various pieces of Ham gear.

If it didn't work, no big deal, you'd try again and doing so would not burn a hole in your wallet but you'd learn a lot in the process.

Over time, by learning from your mistakes, many Hams became quite skilled at building all sorts of things for the Ham shack and the theory they learned in the books was made real to them.

Today, that is all gone, part of a gentler age and for the most part, the theory found in licensing manuals remains theory and is never put into actual practice.

Consider building an amplifier. I have successfully built a few over the years but getting the parts at some reasonable cost took years.

To go out and purchase all the parts new would cost a small fortune today, far exceeding the cost of a commerically built amplifier, so it should be no surprise that only the most enthusiastic take this route, not to mention that today doing so is far more expensive while in the past, it was much, much cheaper and readily available, in many cases all it took was a trip across town to "Radio Row" and a modest cash outlay.

I don't like the fact that this has happened. But happened it has.

About the only group of people who are building anything on a regular basis are QRPers and that is a good thing.

But the main station console, the heart of the Amateur station today, is not the stuff of hobbyists.

No, this stuff, the state of the art stuff, is designed and constructed by professionals and not hand wound in the basement on a toilet paper tube.

So I cannot really blame the newcomers. This is the state of Ham Radio as they found it, they became Hams long after the "build it yourself" era had ended.

Many were not even born yet.

IF we want to reverse this trend, then I propose the following: All of us swear off commericially made gear.

IF you are an OT harping and complaining about the lack of practical technical skill on the part of new Hams, yet you yourself run a Yaesu Mark 2 Pro and an Alpha amplifier, having abandoned the homebrew stuff years ago for all the same reasons that few build their own rigs today, you sound hypocritical.

In 21 years of Hamming, I have met only one Ham whose gear was all homebrew and he is SK now. I should also add

There is another one that I QSO with who lives in MD, but I have to mention that this gentlemen designs and builds RF circuitry for a living.

I've been to other OTs shacks and its always the same: commerical rig, commercial amp, commerical everything, and when it goes down they box it up and send it back to the factory in all but the most simple of cases.

I wish I had been born during the "Golden Age."

It must have been fun.

TP

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N8LXR comments:

<<I wish I had been born during the "Golden Age."

It must have been fun.

TP>>

A person that wants to build a homebrew piece of equipment today can still do so. But "Radio Row" has moved to the internet. Most of the components are available. But some parts such as resistors and capacitors can be more mordern parts.

And there is eBay. On eBay you can find most all the pieces from the "Golden Age". Restoring and operating some of these items is a hoby in itself.

I restore and operate Heathkit equipment from the 50's and 60's. They have parts large enough to see and work on. There are no custom chips that are not replaceable. All but a few types of tubes are easy to obtain. Those of us that worked on this kind of stuff 40 years ago know how to find alternate tube types to substitute.

There are a lot of us OTers that are using stations made strickly of BoatAnchors.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by WU3U on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I see your point OM, but your point only proves my point.

Building Amateur gear is no longer the primary means of getting on the air BUT in years past it was the primary means of gaining practical technical skill.

It is a subset of Ham Radio and not a main feature largely due to mass production of electronic equipment and the economics dicating that it is simply more financially and technically feasible to buy and use modern commerically made equipment.

The Ham Radio station as per the Amateur's Code states that the Amateur's station should be "well abreast of science."

Circuits from the 50s and 60s are fun and I love all that old stuff too but it's hardly "abreast of science."

I've built some of it in years past: A KW amplifier with a pair of 813s in grounded grid from scratch and a simple novice transmitter from the 1960 ARRL Handbook.

I am now building a little QRP transmitter from Doug DeMaw's "Solid State Design for the Radio Amateur," which is a fun project but it can never take the place of main station console which is and must be designed and constructed professionally.

I can and do build a few things here and there....but state of the art it ain't and if I tried to build that 813 amplifier today (I built mine in 1984)the cost of parts would be unreal. ($$$$)

I know because I have checked hoping I might build another one.

A bought a brand new pair of 813s in 1984 for about 25 dollars.

Today, a pair of new 813s is going for in excess of 100 dollars...I have seen them bidded up to 150 dollars a matched pair.

I can't imagine what a high volatge plate transformer would cost new. Peter W. Dahl sells them, I know, but here again, the cost must be well over 200 dollars or more and the dang things are heavy as hell so the shipping is also quite expensive.

Add in a decent chassis and cabinet....plate choke, filament choke, filament transformer, plate blocking cap, various ceramic items, plate and load capacitors, knobs, standoffs...whew....even used all this stuff is going for big bucks and mucho big bucks new.

E Bay and the Net in general have made these things available but the price of these parts continues to rise ever upward, to the point that we have come full circle: It's not financially feasible to build stuff like that anymore in most cases.

In the old days, it WAS financially feasible. In fact, it was often a lot cheaper and this is the thing that led Hams to build things and gain the practical technical skill that the author of this post laments.

Today, it is precisely the opposite: You pay a premium for parts, you supply the labor, and you end up with something that is not nearly as good as what you could have bought for half the money.

And here in America, money talks...no wait, it sings, dances, and plays the piano too!

I applaud that there are still guys building stuff and there are precious few of them at that.

But I also recognize that this is not mainstream Ham Radio, but rather, a specialty within Ham Radio and to expect that new Hams will gain practical technical skills in an era whereby building equipment requires
inordinate amounts of time and effort to gather parts that are very expensive and not readily available as they were when going over to "Radio Row" was a drive across town...well, I just think that to pine away for the old days in the face of this reality is just wishful thinking.

73,

Tim
N8LXR

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH,

I understand your point. I just disagree. Let me see if I can put it another way:

In modern rigs, the noise floor of the preamps has almost nothing to do with the readability of the signal that emerges from the receiver. And most 'old school' hams don't seem to understand that, or why it is true. Even the stability of the ADCs has more to do with signal quality than the choice of amps, and a well designed ADC makes preamps unnecessary. Expect to see analog preamps disappear in a generation or two.

How many hams, old school or new, really understand DSP? Most don't even have the background to follow the math, let alone the pragmatics of the engineering that comes from the math.

And yet, these extremely complex computer systems turn out to be very easy to understand how to operate. You just don't need to know anything about the inside of the black boxes to know how they perform -- and knowing everything about the inside may not help you predict the performance, because of the complexity of the box.

The bottom line is that the only way to know how a rig works is to run it. A lot. and to experiment with it.

Now some idea of *what* the various knobs and buttons cause to happen will help reduce the number of experiments you have to do; but knowledge of *how* they do it just isn't useful.

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N8LXR;

Well said!.........And right on target!

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
"Appliance Operator"

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP comments:

"How many hams, old school or new, really understand DSP? Most don't even have the background to follow the math, let alone the pragmatics of the engineering that comes from the math."

I DO!

I know how DSPs work. I first started working with microprocessors in 1973 (Intel 4004 & 8008). I started working with DSPs about 1990 (TI & Zilog). I was a design engineer in the disk drive industy.

I have the software on this computer to program and debug some DSPs. I also have the software to design ASICs. And I have the software to design the PCB to put these items on.

I did this kind of work during the last 30 years of my engineering career.

I just like working with the old BoatAnchor stuff better. Besides, it is easier on an old man's eyes. But I still do advanced semiconductor design work.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP,

No, you evidently don't understand my point.

I am talking about the inate quality and nature of the HAM RADIO OPERATOR, and I am doing that IN THE CONTEXT of THE QUESTION first posed in this thread.

Knowledge, in the context of my statement means understanding the physics of the type of radio work being done. It has nothing to do with soldering irons, building a rig etc. It has to do with understanding why one radio is going to be a better communications tool, and HOW to APPLY that TOOL.

If you think that Analog to Digital Conversion has anything to do with what I was talking about, you are seriously missing the point! If the component design, as well as the overall design of the receiver simply cannot work within the noise floor of the given frequency, there will be NO RECOVERABLE SIGNAL. There will be no analog signal to be observed 'above the noise' -- the internal noise.

Converting this difficult to detect analog signal to a digital product only adds another layer of complexity. Your really good and nifty ADC will simply sometimes lose data. No data means, no copy, or at the least holes in the communication -- LOST DATA!

I suspect at the heart of this that would mean that your, really nifty ADC, would be a MOS device! At least this is turning into a genuine technical discussion!

RE: My Opinion

by KE6PID on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

>>> think the lack of respect and patience on the >>>airwaves is a direct reflection on current society.

>>>You see it on the roads, in eating establishments, >>>and everywhere else you go. Ham radio can't be far >>>removed from current trends.

Right on OM!

Prolog…I just reread what I wrote, it sounds pontific and crumugny, this is not really my style. You have been warned…

You hit the nail on the head. It’s not ham radio, it’s society. Cruder and more vulgar.
You see it and hear it everywhere. On the radio and television, in print too. Just a cheap shot to get attention. Try to clean it up a little and “they” all scream about their constitutional rights!
The media, sadly to say, is a role model for the aspiring masses. Is there any wonder people act as they do?

Page 2…
Manufactures want to give the consumer instant gratification, this is what killed Heathkit, why buy a kit when I can buy a radio (or television) for the same price that is factory perfect. When I was a wee lad of 10, I wanted a radio for Christmas; my father bought me a Heathkit. 36 years later I still have it and it and it still works. One thing it taught me was a little work planting seeds can provide huge rewards later. That 6 transistor Heathkit taught me how to solder, how to assemble a PC board, and ultimately how a superhetrodyne receiver works, and all of the associated circuits in the radio. Not bad for a 10 year old. My father a schoolteacher was right there to be certain I was on the right track. One of my classmates got a radio for Christmas that year too, it was a Panasonic. Although he had the radio to listen to Christmas day, he didn’t have the important part, they knowledge that Heathkit imparted on me.

That was then, this is now…

Manufactures help lines a re flooded all the time with easy to solve problems. Problems that could have been rectified by a quick look at the manual. No one seems to want to take the few seconds to learn how to use the new product that they brought home. People are proud, “I never look at the manual, that the last resort!” You know the ones, they people who never figured out how to set the time on their VCR? I’ll bet my classmate, now middle age, like me, has a VCR flashing 12:00…I haven’t seem him in 30 years….

Page 3….
So why is this? We don’t seem to be invoking a great deal of grey matter involvement in the learning years there days. High school students are taught to pass a basic skills/knowledge test, and since they need to pass the test to graduate from high school, the knowledge necessary to pass this test is emphasized. Memorizing the question pool sound familiar? Don’t teach ‘em how to learn, teach ‘em how to pass that test! You are right, in 1969 the FCC provided a study guide, and as I remember it was a 4 page document, if you possess the knowledge to answer these questions, then you should be able to pass the general test-that was the mantra then. You cracked the books and learned AC and DC theory, you learned about the rules. All this took time, you found an Elmer to help out, and you got on the inside track. That approach sounds like learning something, and as a mass, we don’t like to learn things because it makes us feel stupid! An easier approach is not to learn and apply the knowledge to the equation, but to memorize, this doesn’t require any reasoning, and so it seems like the fast track to what you want.

Like duh?

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For most of us ham radio is a HOBBY! We have to decide what we want from it. If it does not provide us with some kind of enjoyment we will find something else to do with our casual time.

In my case I like working with the BoatAnchors and meeting with others (mostly OFs like me) that enjoy this aspect of ham radio.

I just don't have any desire to just buy an expensive tranceiver (made in Asia) and connect a wire to it and talk.

In addition to the BoatAnchor activities I do work with VHF SSB equipment. What Asian manufacturer makes a 250W 2M SSB unit? I don't know of any.

And I do have 3 2M FM trancievers (made in Asia) for use on the local repeaters when necessary.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Re 250W 2m SSB "unit:"

Not sure what a "unit" is, but THL has made 250W 2m linear amplifiers for SSB use for many years and just now introduced their 500W model (solid state, made in Japan), the HL-500V. http://www.thp.co.jp

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WB2WIK/6,

Thanks for the link to Tokyo High Power. What it the price of the 250W 2M linear?

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by KL7HF on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I have read and read the input from KC2NMX (SFD301)
and just have to respond.

I have no clue where your info comes from but the
58 License Manual was quite a large publication.
I took my Extra on the same day I took my
First Radiotelephone test, the Extra was 250 questions
with many schematics to be drawn and corrected.
It took 4 times as long to write as the First Phone.

The complaint most of us have is not so much the lack
of technical knowledge, but the lack of desire to learn even the very basics before getting on the air.

Last night I tried to explain to a guy there is no such
signal report as S-45. C'mon..

Amateur Radio was always a technical based service, but
recent trends are trying to move it to a Communicator
service.

Remeber - anything we have is only as valuable as the
amount of work we perform to acquire it. If it costs
a lot, it is worth a lot. When it becomes easy, it
has no value.

de KL7HF

RE: My Opinion

by WB2WIK on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K5MYJ: I don't know.

I did own a THL 300W 2m SS amplifier years ago, purchased for ~$450 and sold it a few years later for about the same price. That might be a clue.

I don't think they currently have any "dealers" here in the States, so if you want their stuff, you buy it from them and they ship it from Japan, per the exchange rate, whatever that is on the day they ship it. That sounds scary, but they've been in business a long time and are evidently trustworthy. Plus, it's fun chatting with them on the phone as I recall -- they're all JA hams.

WB2WIK/6

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think the idea of the "unit" was to have a complete working VHF transceiver, with a 250 Watt output power amplifier stage. Of course, such an solid state amplifier will require about 675 Watts input power, to produce that 250 Watts out. Thats 675 Watts of heat!

Thats why no manufacturer puts such a PA stage packaged in a 'box' with the rest of the electronics!
Although conceptually, Yaesu's FT-100D is pretty close to that sort of basic idea. I have never known of any other solid state radio that ran so warm -- even on receive and, even on receive, the fans at least idle nearly all of the time!

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH comment:

"I think the idea of the "unit" was to have a complete working VHF transceiver, with a 250 Watt output power amplifier stage. Of course, such an solid state amplifier will require about 675 Watts input power, to produce that 250 Watts out. Thats 675 Watts of heat!"

But a 250W 2M SSB tranciever can be built with tube electronics.

And a tube type linead with PP Pair running AB2 approches 50% efficency. And a SSB linear is biased off when not transmiting and uses very little power in the idle state. Bost of it is the power required by the filament.

I had never seen the Japanees HI Power linears probably because they are not sold by the US retailers like HRO.

A tube to handle 180W PEP in a 2M unit can be purchased for $40. What is the cost of the transistors in a 2M 180W SSB linear? I expect much more than the $40 tube.

But I am out of date on solid state linears.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hey Bob, I'm with ya man, (as I said in an earlier post), I love tubes for both their dynamic range, and efficient power producing ability!

My favorites, in this catagory, are the Svetlana 4CX800A, and that same companies 4CX400.

Power to the people,,, man!
73! de John

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> No, you evidently don't understand my point.

Actually, I do. You've said nothing below that adds to your point.

> I am talking about the inate quality and nature of
> the HAM RADIO OPERATOR, and I am doing that IN THE
> CONTEXT of THE QUESTION first posed in this thread.

Yes. And I'm trying, patiently, to explain to you that your idea that the 'inate quality and nature' of a "HAM RADIO OPERATOR" is somehow related to understanding device physics just doesn't match the reality of ham radio operators.

> Knowledge, in the context of my statement means
> understanding the physics of the type of radio work
> being done.

Yeah. Sure. And what percentage of hams do you think understand quantum mechanics? After all, *that* is the physics of semiconductor devices. Or, for that matter, QCD, which is the basis of propagation.

We're in a hobby where most of the participants don't have math beyond high school algebra and, maybe, a little trig. And despite you concern with device physics, those people do just fine as ham radio operators.

> It has nothing to do with soldering irons, building
> a rig etc. It has to do with understanding why one
> radio is going to be a better communications tool,
> and HOW to APPLY that TOOL.

Yes, I know that's what you think. It's why, earlier, I tried to point out that understanding *why* something works the way it does has very little to do with being able to understand *how* it behaves, or how to use it.

Understanding how to use tools is different than understanding why they behave the way they do. Designers don't have to understand QM or QCD in order to be able to use semiconductors. They merely have to know what the properties of semiconductors are that are relevant to the kind of design they do. Users of those designs don't have to know the semiconductors, or even the electronics of the resulting circuits, in order to be able to use the radios.

What they have to know, and what the vast majority of amateur radio operators know very well, is black box knowledge of what happens in terms they care about when they set various controls in various ways.

Maybe it was true once. Sometime before WW-II, perhaps. But it hasn't been required to understand the electronics or physics of radios in order to understand how to use them for a very long time.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP,

Wow, you made me cut, paste, and print that last one, just to cover all your points!

Also, I hope this isn't turning into some sort of pissing contest? That was not my intent but, show me yours, and I'll ......
Just kidding,,,,,, for the most part!

So, forgiving your previous rudeness and presumption, I evidently hold the basic Ham Radio operator in much higher regard than do you. I will grant you that the percentage might be low but, thats what we would like to see repaired,,, right?

As to your point on Quantum Physics, well,,,,, ya see, I don't really believe in Quantum Physics! Ya, Ya, Ya, I know, your going to say, 'this guy is off his bird'!

I use quantum physics as a basic 'book keeping method'. I'm certain that in the coming years it will be resolved that, Newton, Maxwell, and Plank were the ones that were correct (Oh, and Einstein too -- basic -- not special theory though).

What the hell is "QCD"? Please do tell, I hate acronyms!

Oh crap, I evidently lost some of the stuff I had copy/pasted! This is enough for now though. Answer this, and I will go back and look at the rest. Or,,, you can re-iterate from where I left off?

All in good fun, 73's (meaning best regardses) de John
{Seriously, it is a good discussion, I'm enjoying the points given, hopefully, others are as well!}

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP,

Well, its been about 30 minutes now with no answer so, the only participle that I still see as hanging is this thought that Ham's simply don't need to understand physics since about WW2 or so.

I have owned several radios (since then) that, I am sad to say, I found out only after I owned them -- how poor their 'physics' design was. Without naming names, they were 60's, 70's, and 1980's vinatge radios. The same though is true today. A particular Icom radio, that many seem to love, is a piece of s$#t.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> So, forgiving your previous rudeness and
> presumption,

Well that makes you a bigger man than me, because I've got no desire to forgive yours. Actually, I don't care either way. You want to be rude, and then get in a snit because you think I was, that's your business.

> I evidently hold the basic Ham Radio operator in
> much higher regard than do you.

Nope. You hold technical knowledge as more relevant than I do. I've said nothing but positive things about hams in this discussion. I've only talked about the relevance of various technologies to what they do.

> I will grant you that the percentage might be low
> but, thats what we would like to see repaired,,,
> right?

Nope. I, for one, don't think that 'technical knowledge', especially the specific technical knowledge in your examples, matters. What matters is operating procedure, and pragmatic ability to get the most of the equipment one has at hand.

For some of us, that pragmatic ability is gained, in part, by technical understanding of the underlying principles, and that's fine; but it's not the only way to gain it, and people who get there by other paths are just as good operators as people who don't.

QCD, by the way, is Quantum Chromodynamics. It's the theory that explains electromagnetic propagation, among other things.

RE: My Opinion

by K0EWS on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Folks, ham radio is different things to different people. Why is that so hard to figure out? To some, it's the enjoyment of the ragchew. To others it's station building and trying new antenna designs. To others, it's DX, to others, contesting, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. My point? Not all hams are technically inclined; they didn't get into it for that. Other hams do and did. I enjoy all the aspects of the hobby myself. I've only done this for 4 years, but have learned to homebrew some projects, I especially like building new antennas; I like contesting, and the digital stuff, QRP and CW. Recently I have put energy into passing this stuff on to some teenagers that I teach. Their motivation may be diffent than mine, but what motivates me is that they are fascinated with radio, and that's neat for me to see, so I will do what I can to help them. They will find their niche in ham radio later. I grew up around this hobby with my Dad being a ham for 30 years, and I'm finding that my interests in ham radio differ from his to some extent. However, we agree that hams are hams, and this hobby has a big roof for just about anyone who has an interest in radio communications. There really is something in it for everyone. I fail to see why some people don't understand that.

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH said: “Also, I hope this isn't turning into some sort of pissing contest?”

Well John,,,,,,,,,It’s been my observation that any discussion with Marty that goes past the first set of posts tends to turn into an extended “Pissing Match”.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

My Opinion

by K8MHZ on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

<What is all this gossip about amateur radio dying?>

Gossip, discussion, conjecture...the fact that the subject keeps coming up may or may not validate the allegation, but should at least be a heads up for all, naysayers included.

For some, the number of licensed hams indicate the hobby's health. For others it is the amount of bandwidth we are allocated. Another measure of health is the quality of the operators we encounter. Some, hopefully, see all of these issues as the pulse of ham radio.

Ham radio may or may not be dying, but it seems we are all concerned about it's health. My question is what are we doing to nurture our precious hobby? Do we just sit and complain, or do we take a more pro-active stance?

It has come up from time to time that the FCC doesn't care about ham radio. I disagree. If they wanted fewer radio operators to have ham licenses, they would make the requirements tougher, not easier, as the trend has been. Don't take this as an acceptance of the action, just as an observation of the somewhat obvious motivation for the changes of late, and being considered for the future, of the structure of the licensing exams.

I suggest that we start doing more to promote the hobby and spend less time analyizing the reasons for a suspected demise that still remains conjecture. When people ask you why you have a different license plate on your car, take the time to tell them about ham radio, why you like it so much, and give them a contact person to reach if they decide they want to learn more and perhaps join us. When your neighbors ask you about your towers and antennas, spiff up your shack and invite them over to see your favorite radio mode. What non-ham wouldn't be impressed by a contact made to the other side of the globe on a single wire antenna? Or a similar contact made with a handheld through an IRLP repeater? Has anyone ever seen the look in an 11 year old's eye when they have heard an astronaut from the space station talking live through ham radio? I have, the experience is hard to beat, let me tell you.

How many ARES groups are active in their community at parades, runs and other events? This is a great exposure tactic and is wonderful training for emergency communications. How many clubs have contacted all the schools in their area offering to demonstrate ham radio to the students there? How many operators have written to their newspaper extolling the virtues of ham radio?

If we want our hobby to grow, we have to bring in new blood. I don't see how that will happen if all we do is whine about the bad things we encounter about ham radio. For every bad experience there are many, many more great ones. For every bad operator there are thousands of great ones! I have found the kinship bestowed upon me by my callsign to be a wonderful side effect of ham radio and I make it a point to tell people about that.

Sure, there are some unsavory things about ham radio that gets under our skins. A hobby that has a half to three quarters of a million participants at any given time will have its share of problem children. Those problem children love the attention we give them regardless if it is negative or positive. If we focus our attention on the positive aspects of ham radio and work to increase our numbers and the quality of the operators with and without tenure in a friendly, helpful way the percentage of problem children will diminish both my sheer math and by peer pressure.

To paraphrase, whine less, work more...and smile every time you say your callsign!

Cheers and 73,

Mark K8MHz

RE: My Opinion

by VA3IMO on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Whoa! Quite a firestorm.

I must admit that, as a new ham, I have read this thread with some concern.

First, since credentials appear important, let me establish that although I have not been on the air yet (though I will be tonight if I pass my code test today), I have read the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Handbook cover to cover. For me personally, I like to get a sense of accomplishment from my hobbies, so I taught myself theory and was frustrated when I got a 98% on my Canadian Advanced License test, rather than a 100%.

Although I personally value the sense of accomplishment that many others have expressed, I am concerned about the tone in many of the replies which seemed to boil down to: "ham radio is declining as a hobby because people are too stupid (instantly gratified, etc.) to appreciate it."

In the world of business, organizations that "blame the customer" are usually short-lived and deserve what they get. We live in an internet age where time frames are compressed, it's a fact, get over it. Once we're over that, we should be asking: what sort of people are the natural market for ham radio? Does the hobby offer them everything it could right now? If not, what can be done? If so, how can the benefits be communicated better?

Why would you want to put anyone down for using a radio as an appliance? By analogy, in the early '80's, personal computers were homebuilt with blinking lights. My 13-year old son is deeply interested in computers today, but most interested in software and database issues, and has never picked up a soldering iron. Does that mean he's not a legitimate computer hobbyist?

Unfortunately, there is a recurrent theme in this thread that yearns to turn back the hands of time and shows little interest (and even tolerance) for the most likely new blood.

Also on the theme of tolerance and mutual respect, i think of ham radio as a very international pasttime. The comments about "ricebox radios" are jingoism in my opinion. In any event, the vast majority of hams in the world at not Americans, so why do you think that matters to the majority of us? When Canadian jobs moved to the head offices of US multi-nationals in the '70's, we were told it was economic efficiency. When jobs move to the far east, it's foul play? I don't think so.

We don't just live in an internet world, it's truly a global economy. I think the competition from Asia is very healthy. If we look to the future and move into new, high value added areas in touch with the times, we'll do fine. If we keep complaining and hoping to go back in time, we're toast.

Do I sense a parallel here with the fortunes of ham radio as a hobby?

My Opinion

by K0RGR on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Here's a question for those of you under 30 (if any). Do you feel that you have lots of spare time?

I haven't felt that way for a couple decades personally, and there are several reasons for it.

Oh, I still find the time to get involved with new things, but I do tend to avoid long-term learning committments, because I know that my life makes it unlikely that I will be able to count on doing something almost every night for a long period of time without some kind of long term interruption - which often means starting all over again. It becomes very frustrating.

I've mastered all the 'hot' programming languages, in some cases several times! I recently started devoting a lot of my free time to re-learning one I studied in college and have re-learned a couple times since. But a few weeks ago, I took on a new assignment at work that has pre-empted that project, so here we go again. The founder of our company was famous for the statement that there is "no limit to the human potential for learning". And now, his company thinks you can do it all at the same time, too.

I think that ultimately, this is what is driving a lot of what we perceive as "problems" with the growth of ham radio.

People just don't have time for the kind of learning that those of us who were licensed back in the 60's did. I don't know if I would find the time to study for the test today if I had to. I do find the material somewhat easier than the General exam I took in '66, but it is wider in scope and much, much harder than the Novice I took in '65. It would be much, much harder to memorize this material than it was to memorize the General license manual material in '66. Yes, I had to know how to use the formulas just long enough to pass the test.

Those who have the time are older, and probably aren't interested in a new career in electronics. They may be interested in doing public service, or they be interested purely in the hobby aspects.

When you hand the book to a younger person, they just look at you as though you are insane and walk off.

This is why I think we need to change our way of licensing people.

It's time to round-file the tests. Let's replace the exam for the entry license, whatever that ends up being, with a required course of study. Let's make practical operating, operating courtesy, rules and regs, and as much technical training as needed part of the class. Make it hard enough to make the students feel they've earned something, make it entertaining enough to attract and keep kids involved! And keep it short! Three consecutive weekends, max!

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

To VA3IMO & K0RGR;

Well Said!!

Thank you for your well thought out and well written contributions!

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

My Opinion

by W7AV on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

How much technical knowledge do we need? In these times there is no way I would work on my IC-746. Too technical and well above the knowledge of the non-engineer.

I disagree with your statement that you NEED a very good understanding of electronics to a good amateur radio operator---stress "amateur". However, I do agree with the "strong desire to succeed" statement. That WAS everything.

I was first licensed in 1957 (12 y/o) as KN6JEN, no Elmer's to help, it was "get lost kid". I spent 7 months of my year long Novice without a single QSO. Than a local gave me a break and helped me out for a day, never to be seen again. Oh, we had a club. The bands haven't really changed, we have, we're less tolerant (a good thing) or we forget. 75 meters was as it is today, arguing, drunks, so on. 20m was full of kilowatts and ATTITUDE. NOTHING HAS CHANGED in that arena.

Everytime the rules and regs change "ham radio is finished-dead", It hasn't happened.

In my opinion what has changed and will most certainly change more is the skilled CW operator--a true art form--this will die over time. A real loss of a wonderful skill that only those who developed it can appreciate. It is a world of it's own. I remember the real old-timer who could carry on a verbal conversation and still copy 35 wpm in their heads. That is pretty much dead. Why? Because of Phone--AM, SSB. The FCC allowed such a thing.

If we don't have modes of communications that attract people than amateur radio will not grow. Developing technology must be represented in our hobby. Must we be able to design and repair such technology--that is for the engineer not the average person who wishes to communicate. Yes, our hobby is blessed with a few real engineers, even self-educated. But most of us are just not so educated in these areas, and would it help the hobby if we were all engineers? No No.

What has been the bottom line in amateur radio has been the ability to commnicate with others. Exceptions to everything I say.

If we are to teach new hams, than it should be communications in it's many forms. Too many "Clubs" are formed around repeaters, and as a result, many believe that a handheld IS ham radio. Too many leave the hobby because they have never been exposed to the many forms of communicating. This is where an Elmer could be of significant help. Exposing newbies to real ham radio or finding others who can. Few of us do all that ham radio has to offer at one time. But some have done most of it at one time or another.

There is no firm answer to anything. I just haven't seen my opinion voiced by many others. Ham radio will survive as long as it's interesting.

Rick, W7AV

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 19, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

One of the problems I am having is the fact that of the reasons for ham radio was advancement of the state of the art.

Someone that understood modulation gave us PSK31. That was an advancement of state of the art. We have had satalite communications for a long time now. Ant the VHF people have made advancments in UHF operation not thought of 30 years ago. These things were done by people with somekind of technical skills.

Without these kind of people further development of commincation technology will decline. Many advancements in communication technology were actually developed by hams and then capitalized by commercial operations.

Without technical skills this service just becomes another form of Citizens Band. And we don't really need another form of CB!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

My Opinion

by G6YBV on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"Good God" This is a hobby not the be all and end all of life. If you need a life go and get one, Don't blame ham radio for not having one.

73's Steve

RE: My Opinion

by K8GU on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Many new hams that I know consider the testing process a nuisance. In this sense, I agree with the originator, but framed differently: What ever happened to being so curious about something that you devoured everything you could find about it? This is how discoveries happen.

By the same token, W7AV makes an excellent point: Hams, in general, are rather territorial and snobbish. I suspect that improved attitudes would enhance "technology transfer" from one generation of hams to the next more than raising the testing requirements again.

So, the next time some newcomer asks you for help with a dipole...remember that it's not like you haven't been clueless before.

RE: My Opinion

by W5ESE on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K0RGR
-----

> When you hand the book to a younger person, they
> just look at you as though you are insane and
> walk off.

i certainly don't believe this is universally true
today.

but it was true for many even 30 or 50 years ago.

those for whom it is true, i say, "no great loss".

> This is why I think we need to change our way of
> licensing people.

> It's time to round-file the tests.

i disagree. amateur radio has long been a niche
avocation, not just a "consumer" avocation. i
think it would be best that it continue that way.

73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

It doesn't say 'advance radio technology', by the way, it says 'radio *arts*'. There's more to radio arts than hardware.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

For, VA3IMO, and to a somewhat lesser extent for K0RGR,
and unfortunately for KB9YZL, you guys simply don't get it!

I don't mean that to be a 'put down' or castigate you for those views. I mean it only as a declarative statement, and beg you to try to see the point that I and others are making.

W7AV made a very good analytic statement about CW, and the ability to communicate via Morse code. Paraphrasing his comment, 'CW, a true art form, that can only really be appreciated by those who developed it'. I agree with the basic intent of what he was saying!

So, if that is true for the skill of developing proficiency at Morse code, why would it not be true for finely developing a commensurate skill in the understanding of electronics, and radio physics?

The little 'back and fourth' that I have recently been doing with AE6IP is for the benefit of critically extracting all these points in the argument at hand. That argument being, is Ham radio in decline, because of a lacking of desire to attain this sort of technical skill. It is not only declining, the skill at this individual level is being LOST!

By some of the arguments presented here, some are saying, that that is fine, natural, and maybe even desirable. To paraphrase, 'maybe we should find better ways to promote Ham radio without all of this bother about tests, maybe just trash can this testing examination'. Others have correctly responded, 'it would then be Citizens Band'.

I sweat blood to get my Ham license. I worked on learning code since I was 8 years old. My mother made Flash Cards for me -- not that that is the correct way to learn to communicate with Morse code. My point is, I would have worked to meet ANY requirement laid done, because I wanted it that badly! We should promote the desire to learn, not make the skill test easier. I have worked similarly through the years to gain the best understanding of electronics, and radio physics that I can attain. Much of that has actually been by using the Ham wavelength bands as a study tool.

We might desire to work on 'promoting Ham Radio', and that can be done or aided by many of the methods spoken of here by others. I do firmly believe that getting kids involved at approximately the age of 13 is a great method to do this. There are certainly other methods also. My main point is, we should wisely and shrewdly seek these methods that will provide quality Ham's, and not be overly concerned in the least about quantity.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP comments:

"It doesn't say 'advance radio technology', by the way, it says 'radio *arts*'. There's more to radio arts than hardware."

And just pushing the mike button and talking does not advance the state of the art. Also shooting your mouth of on internet message boards does not help either! People can have very good educations and still act like JERKS!

In 1963 NASA (trough JPL) bounced a 5KW S-Band signal off Venus and mapped the surface of the planet. The project took several years but the actual mapping of the planet was done in 6 months. 90% of the engineers and technicians on this program were hams. The work done did add to the knowledge of UHF operations.

That is just one example of a contribution by hams to the knowledge base of mankind.

And I was a member of the team that did it.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH comments:

"We might desire to work on 'promoting Ham Radio', and that can be done or aided by many of the methods spoken of here by others. I do firmly believe that getting kids involved at approximately the age of 13 is a great method to do this. There are certainly other methods also. My main point is, we should wisely and shrewdly seek these methods that will provide quality Ham's, and not be overly concerned in the least about quantity."

You have to get the kids interested before they discover the opposite sex or cars!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by W7AV on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

A few thoughts on what W5MYJ has to say---At JPL in 1963 90% of the people who were on a project were hams--In those days amateur radio attracted the a more intellectual. Why, because that was the top of the ladder for the curious, a place to experiment. See if thats true today---most are drawn to computer technology because it satisfies the same personality type. However, the vast majority of amateurs were and still are just average people. They have no desire to contribute to the "State of the Art". They wish to enjoy a hobby of communications, now in many forms, thanks to the contributions a the few, not the many in amateur radio. If our hobby was made up of only tech oriented people how many hams would there be?

Without tech skills the service becomes CB? No, CB IS dead for the most part. Nothing like the old days. They have migrated to computers.

I agree that a certain amount of practical knowledge is needed to operate. Why did the SWR shoot up all at once?? Why did I blow that fuse? But to be able to discuss the in's and out's of IF DSP--I don't think so.

G6YBV made an earth shattering contribution--the OLD "get a life" thing. Please define "life" for me. What is "life" to you?? Whats wrong with amateur radio being the center of one's life?? Beats drugs and drinking as a life. Is what you do for a living your real "life".

Rick, W7AV

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Well Rick, I can tell you that having a Ham license used to get me jobs -- as in back in the days when most people involved in commercial radio or the sciences were Ham's.

THATS WHAT I THINK THIS THREAD IS ABOUT -- TO AS WELL AS POSSIBLE -- REPAIR TOWARD THAT STATUS!

I do agree with the reasons by which you credit this older knowledge and intelligence. Please refer back the original question of this article, AND MY ABOVE SENTENCE!

As further proof, a few years ago I was interviewed for a position and asked, whats this WA6 stuff at the top of your resume. This "HR" person didn't get the point either. Also, you should have seen the way that company was run! I have never before worked in such a disjointed situation, where all the basics had to be discussed, before any progress at all could be made by other design team members. Only a couple people in the company were Ham's, and they usually helped and counseled the others -- even outside of their teams particular project facet.

It gets really tiring just trying to make this point here. It's also very discouraging!

73, all for the best I guess! de John

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BHF;

So………..I (and others mentioned) “Just don’t get It”…..Is that right?

Why do you assume that?..........Is it just because we don’t happen to share your perspective on the subject?..............That verges on being pompous!

You see your position as one favoring “Technical Skills”, which you (and others here) feel are in decline. Your own statement; >>“It is not only declining, the skill at this individual level is being LOST!”<< seems to sum up your point of view. (…..at least that is what one tends to conclude from reading your posts.)

To use your own words, you argue in favor of the “Quality Ham”.

Well……..there’s a problem here: You and your fellows have never actually defined this nebulous “Quality”! (Read Robert Pirsig on that subject!)

Just what do you mean by a “Quality Ham”, in the technical sense?

Do you mean someone who knows Code?..................Please!!!! Code is more of an art……….and you certainly can’t make a case for it being a “cutting edge skill”.

Do you mean someone who can draw tube circuit diagrams?..............Nonsense!! An appreciation for history is a fine thing (and in many cases, important), but again, in 2004, tube work is old technology at best.

Do you mean someone who is involved in antenna design and propagation theory?..........It’s been my experience that there are as many amateurs involved in this now as there have ever been!

Do you mean someone who is expert in the theory and application of Large Scale Integrated Circuits?..............I hope not, because if so, you just left most of your cheering section behind! Perhaps some of the people who are involved in this truly “cutting edge” industry are also “Hams”, but Ham radio is certainly NOT a driving force in the world of solid state design. The R&D tools and facilities required are far beyond the means of any individual.

To carry the previous point one step further, go to the Product Review section of Eham, and see how many OTs comment on not even being able to program the current generation of microprocessor controlled radios!

So,….. here is your challenge;……….Come up with a definition for “Quality” that makes sense, …..one that is not simply a combination of ambiguity, nebulous phrases, and an attachment to old technology!! …….For if you do, I think you’ll find that 99% of the people posting here will rally behind you.

…….However, if all you can come up with is more “smoke and mirrors”, then you will have to continue accusing me (and many others), of “Not Getting It” ……..Because that will be the only way to defend your position.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

My Opinion

by WA2JJH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

SHORT ANSWER : YES

Pure and simple. If you do not agree with the communications act visa-vi what Amatuer radio was
for. Then I guess Some people would say no.

No interest in either electronics, advancement of the radio art, or being part a pool of electronic enthusiast. Those are some that get their ticket.

They feel it is a constitutional right, not a GVT priveldge that it really is.

They really just want to have the MHZ to legalise freeband.

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR!
I WILL STICK TO WHAT A QUESTION IN THE OLD NOVICE EXAM
STATES. It is not niether or all of the above.

Common sense dictates that lowered standards lead lower expectations!

I like to talk science and tech on the air, not how much cash I spent on a new rig. Many can not even know
that DSP in some rigs rigs are a cheaper way to build than dual or third conversion multiple stage 8 pole XTAL filter rigs. At least ELKRAFT knew to put in a XTAL filter in the front end. They then do a superb job
with DSP.

I agree that the newer equipment is unfixable by the
average ham. I have no shame to admitting I like digging into older radio's. I do not own a SMT soldering station.

I can however read every schematic of any rig and have a good understanding of it's theory.

I got my Novice in 1976, understanding it would be a process of learning enough theory and higher code speeds for General and above.

There are many Great NCT's out there however.
As for content....One can say it is launguage of the times. I am not condoning it.

Finally look at what is broadcast on commercial TV and SHOCK JOCK RADIO. Some of it is very funny for adults.

There seems to be some kind of movement that says, more hams at any standard is good. I do not have an answer for that.

I guess it is the use it or loose it perpective.
The creme always rises to the top. However money talks and B.S. walks.
Hmmmmmm..Am I being too vague!

My Opinion

by WA2JJH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I do remember my Ham Radio Ticket opened mny doors for me in Broadcast TV.

It used to be who you knew. Many crammed for the 1st or 2nd phone to get into radio an TV. When I got to my first local, I noticed the ones with HAM tickets were management!

Now they will let a ham sandwich be an asst.No ticket commercial Cheif Engineer.

IT IS NO WONDER ALL YOU STINKING DELL COMPUTER USERS HAVE TECH SERVE OUT SOURCED TO INDIA!!!!!!!!!!
i STOPPED BUYING DELL AND WENT IBM. WHAT A GREAT DIFFERENCE TO GET A FELLOW AMERICAN THAT KNOWS HIS STUFF.

WAKE UP...WE ARE GIVING AWAY OUR ENGINEERING AND SCIENTIFIC SKILLS TO ALIENS

GO AHEAD CALL ME A SOCIAL DARWINIST! WE STILL LET TERROR NATIONS INTO OUR ENGINEERING AND BIO-ENGINEERING SCHOOLS!!!!!! I KNOW I AM AT A UNIVERSITY NOW FOR A PHD. I GUESS WE NEED ANOTHER WTC FIASCO TO WAKE THE F UP

AMERICANS BETTER WAKE THE F UP!!!!!!!!!!

RE: My Opinion

by W7AV on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ok, so whats the bottom line. We (amateur radio licensee's) only have strength in numbers. Technical knowledge or "appliance operators" is irrelevent when standing up against the FCC. They (FCC) would auction off our frequencies in a heart beat if it were not for the ARRL sticking numbers in their face. Sometimes that doesn't work--look at this BPL thing---FCC and their associates decided to go ahead with it over the technical facts--it causes interference to many electronic devices. Remember, like the IRS and OSHA, the FCC is it's own judge and jury. They don't answer to anyone. You can fight them, but they always win because you run out of money. The FCC is a money making organization not just regulatory as in the past. We lost a portion of the 220mhz band because UPS wanted it---they never used 220mhz but we still lost it. Another example is what happened to the Low-Power FM license?? This was for a community to have it's own non-profit FM station. A great idea that would benefit many communities across the nation. Millions of people could benefit---in walks National Public Radio and it's mother the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (NON-PROFIT, public supported), and the National Association of Broadcasters. They cried so hard, (with their lawyer's supported with taxpayer money) that when the laws were finally written the LPFM thing was pretty much dead and only a token of stations were licensed. Why? Because the public was not represented. The general public had no idea that this whole community radio thing was even happening. So, the numbers were not there. The FCC followed the path it tends to do now and that is go with the money NPR, CPB, NAB. Does the general public know that ALL the radio stations in a community can be owned by one corporation or for that matter 1 person?? They do not--because if the public understood the ramifications of such a set up they wouldn't stand for it!! But how do you get the word out when the very forms of news media you would want to use is owned by who you are fighting!! Does that make sense? I'm rambling---Remember, the FCC doesn't care about you or amateur radio, we are very small fish in a big pond. Our only hope in keeping what we have is in numbers and a national organization to represent our interests the ARRL. I know I sound like a rah, rah, ARRL person, but after dealing with the FCC in other than amateur matters, like it or not we need the ARRL and IT NEEDS THE NUMBERS to stick in the FCC's face. Doesn't always work--but hopefully most of the time.

Rick, W7AV

My Opinion

by WB7DCV on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

If you calculate the percentage of our numbers we are way less than ONE PERCENT of the US population. That worries me especially because of the current battle over BPL. I've been waiting for some influential big wig to ask the simple question: "Would it not be for the greater good if universal BPL was implemented thus benefitting tens of millions of citizens rather than a small number of Hams?" When you put it like that and compare the numbers our case for keeping our HF frequencies relatively uncluttered doesn't look good.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Kent, I thought that I had pretty well answered your most recent post, in my 3rd posting of Nov. 16th.

Let me assure you though, I did not say what I said as any sort of personal insult. I simply meant that to a greater or lesser extent. You guys don't seem to think in terms of 'Ham's that can understand and design just about anything'. I have known Ham's like that, and I admire them greatly! Most of them are dead now.

Since 1992 I have met only 2 Ham's that basically pulled themselves up by their boot straps, and are now well on the way to becomming this sort of Ham. Only 2, in 15 years!

But, maybe I'm mistaken, and you can help. Tell me what were the basic reasons that the Maunder minimum ocurred? Will this function repeat itself? Are we now in the down-side of such a trend? If so, when will this trend swing back the other direction, when we can once again expect Solar maxima's akin to those of 1958?
Thanks for you help on this!

RE: My Opinion

by K1CJS on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

K0RFD wrote:

"Mandatory retesting when you renew your license would go a long way toward ensuring that people like Alan actually *know* what is on the current exams before they shoot off their mouths.
And it would eliminate a lot of the "holier than thou" crap that really *is* a detriment to Ham radio. Eventually, we will all have taken the same exams."

This is an excellent idea, but two things stand in the way, the first is the FCC and VECs as in the overload of testings for the VECs and the overload to the people at the FCC who would have to input the information to the computers to issue the licenses.

The second is the people in the amateur ranks right now. How many would NOT pass the tests, either the technical portion OR the code portion? The way some of the current licensees now operate, I'd bet about half of them.

Also, the way some of the hams complain about the FCC mandated subjects and question pools, how many would just throw up their hands and quit?

If you want to actually help the demise of ham radio, I suggest that this (mandatory retesting) is one of the fastest ways to do it.

RE: My Opinion, its the Japanese radio manufacture

by K1CJS on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

".....make hams get "the knowledge" by building their own rigs, making the cabinets, drilling all the holes in the right places and buying all the parts from the local Radio Shack ham radio store, where the friendly staff are always ready with helpful advice and have all the bits you need "off the shelf"."

Would you care to tell us where those "Radio Shack" stores are?? The stores near most of us don't have "all the bits" needed to even begin to build a simple radio receiver, let alone a ham transmitter and receiver.

73

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

WA6BFH

I have a friend who has worked as a field agent for the FBI, ever since he got out of the service. His standard advice, in the event of arrest, is: “Deny everything and immediately make counter allegations!”………I see you subscribe to the same theory.

………Now, about your Maunder Minimum question:

As you’re certainly aware, the “Maunder Minimum” was a period of extremely low sunspot activity that occurred between middle 1600s and the early 1700s. It was first described as an “Event” by E. Walter Maunder (1851-1928), a solar astronomer who was doing statistical analysis of long term sunspot data.

During the peak of this event, astronomers sometimes went three or four months without observing a sunspot. Auroral activity was also dramatically depressed during this time, which makes sense.

The Maunder Minimum also appears to coincide with a period of unusually cold winters, as documented by European historical data. This has lead some astrophysicists to speculate that it might be connected with the periodic expansion of the Sun…..an event that is typified by slowed solar rotation and reduced solar output. This also lends fuel to some solar astronomer’s argument that our Sun is actually a low level variable star.

A side effect of the reduced high energy radiation reaching the Earth from the Sun is a reduction in the naturally occurring Carbon-14. This produces a very traceable pattern: Analysis of ice cores from Antarctica seem to indicate that there may have been as many as 20 of these “Maunder Minimum” events over the past 12,000 years.

You asked: >>” Are we now in the down-side of such a trend? If so, when will this trend swing back the other direction, when we can once again expect Solar maxima's akin to those of 1958?”<<

Well…..To be honest, I don’t think that the recent solar data (the past 30 years) supports your belief that we are involved in such an event!

So John, as you can see, I do know what the Maunder Minimum is. I know because I have been an amateur astronomer for over 40 years, NOT because of “Ham Radio”.

Like many new licensees, I came to amateur radio with a reasonably good store of practical knowledge; but to many here (apparently including you), this knowledge is irrelevant unless it was learned in “Ham” related pursuits.

BTW; ……..You never answered my questions. (Nothing like a little “Smoke & Mirrors” to dodge an issue….Is there?)

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

My Opinion

by 2NEW4ULS on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Wow - what an interesting thread!

If anyone where to study the dysfunction of community and the inability to coexist within a similar group this would be a fine place to start!

As my member name indicates, I am a new Technician license applicant, so new that a call sign has yet to reach the ULS database. I passed my Tech test last Saturday and have never keyed a mic on ham frequencies.

At 50 years old I have watched amatuer radio from a distance, having a number of my friend's parents involved, having been an electronics technician (ICE) in the Navy for 10 years and so on.

When I decided to get a license last month I gathered up the latest versions of a number of books; Carr's Practical Antenna Handbook, Yoder's Shortwave Listener's Handbook, the ARRL Handbook 2004 and the ARRL's Now You're Talking Level 1 Technician book.
I read them, passed my test and returned them to the library - can't imagine ever needing them again.

My first impression from these books was that ham had not changed since the '60s or even before - even the pictures in these books are ancient black-and-white photos of antique ham shacks, I don't recall a single picture in any of them of technology less than 20 years old!

Times change, and along with them change styles and content of publications - yet it is obvious these texts, and by extension this hobby, have changed little in decades!

This made me wonder about the state of amatuer radio today, so I tried to call a dealer and see what modern equipment they carried. Much to my surprise I discovered that all of the ham radio dealers in Birmingham are defunct! To get even the insulators I want for my antenna guy wires I have to go 100 miles to the nearest dealer...no thanx, I can order from my den over the internet!

So I attended a meeting of our local ham club (BARC) and this whole concept of a dying hobby was reinforced - 40+ people in attendance and maybe 3 were under 80 years old! From all appearances this club will be dead in a few years. I joined it, and am encouraging any new hams in the area to do so as well, in hopes that we can learn some things from these old-timers before they move on and in hopes that we can bring continuity to the club.

The speaker was a local meteorologist, who went on for an hour and a half about Hurricane Ivan without ever mentioning amatuer radio. At the end of his presentation he was asked about amatuer involvement; he couldn't think of any link. He had flown through Ivan four times in a hurricane hunter airplane, then lived through it a fifth time on the ground at the point it came ashore, had reported it thouroughly, was very involved in its aftermath, and could think of not a single way amatuer radio was involved... computers, satellite and cell phones were used throughout. What does that say about ham radio in public service and disaster recovery?

Then I come here. What a thread! Utter hostility to newbies and an almost complete unwillingness to open up to new ideas and technologies!

A radio as a useful tool? Heresy! It must be a consuming avocation!

Operation without technical understanding? The end of radio!

I was involved in CB from almost its inception until its demise, when the anonymous nature of CB allowed sickness and dysfunction to prevail and CB became for all practical purposes unusable.

During the early years I used CB in groups like REACT (was an early member of Jefferson County REACT as well as worked the Red Cross radio room) up until the time we developed professional first-responder capabilities in Birmingham.

Still, though ham was available as an alternative I never saw any real use for it in my life.

I gave up CB base operations because of the degeneration but have always kept them in my cars, and they have come in handy, though they're turned off 99% of the time.

I am an active outdoorsman and a frequent traveler, so I am in the woods or on the road, out of reach of cell technology, quite often...that's mainly when I use CB...talking to hunting buddies or ratchet-jawing with truckers as I drive through the night.

I retired my IT consulting business after 26 years and, casting about for something to do when I wasn't hunting or fishing, discovered geocaching (www.geocaching.com) and became active in building a state association of geocachers (www.alacache.com).

We sometimes geocache in groups - maybe have 10 people in three cars make a run to Nashville and geocache for 24 hours straight, or some of us will be out and about geocaching individually in central Alabama and want to talk to one another.

It's a family activity and very few if any have CBs, so we tried FRS for communications - it was a complete flop at distances > 1/2 mile or in urban environments.

Several of our group are hams, and that has sparked an interest. In the last few months six of us have gotten ham licenses and various HT and mobile radio setups, and many more are interested and studying for the test.

Of our state membership of 350+ geocachers I won't be surprised to see 50 get amatuer licenses, and I know there is great interest among other state's geocaching associations as well.

One of the driving forces, beyond better interpersonal communications, is APRS. We are all GPS users and many of us travel with both a hand-held GPS and a GPS-enabled laptop, so connecting the radio gives us the ability to track each other visually on a map.

So, to tie all this into this thread, here you have an example of someone who is a trained and experienced electronics tech, who has used CB as it was intended to be used for 35 years, who considers himself a good operating community citizen, but has never seen the inside of a CB radio and doesn't want to!

I bought my radios, linears, antennas, whatever, and paid CB shops to tweak and tune 'em up - never had any desire to work on them but wanted them simply to work! I run 450/500 bi-linears in my cars and those puppies can both listen and talk, and that's all I want to know about CB.

I took that same attitude to computers in 1979 when I started my consulting business - while the world was going nuts trying to become computer experts I approached them, for medical and legal practice management and later as the heart of process control and automating work-flow, as a tool - an appliance, if you will. Let the techs build and maintain it, my job was to make it usable.

I built a few computers for myself, but my approach to clients was that they should know how to USE the computer, not how to build it. It paid off in that my customers, sick of "IT Gurus" who spent all their time inside the machine, hired me to make the computer actually do productive work for them!

I bring that same attitude to ham radio - I bought what I believe to be a good HT, attended Hamfest and solicited opinions on antennas for my specific needs, bought a mobile and base antenna and some quality coax, and that's all I want to know about ham radio.

When my license comes through I will be ready to use it. No code, no "modern" technical knowledge (haven't messed with electronics since '79), no interest in either.

Will this make me a "bad" operator? I don't think so.

Will it limit my capabilities? No, I don't need or want more capability.

Will my lack of tecnical knowledge undermine my ability to maintain my equipment? Nope; other than matching my antennas there's nothing to maintain.

So, these questions about CW requirements and entrance-testing difficulty are a smoke-screen laid down by those who want to maintain their "good ole boys" club.

At the Technician level (which really should still be called Novice), anyone capable of understanding basic safety and operating principles and willing to commit to being a polite and orderly radio citizen should be allowed to do so.

The death of CB lay in anonymity, and many of the troubles in amatuer radio lie in this same area - people will display a whole 'nother personality if they think they are anonymous! This is at the heart of the sickness prevelant on the internet as well - anonymity prevents accountability.

It is therefore imperative that proper licensing and identification practices remain at the heart of amatuer radio at all levels.

When I need to reach out to an expert I have to know and trust his/her qualifications, therefore General and above licenses must continue to require escalating levels of technical knowledge.

In any community there must be a core of experts and an always-learning body of folks moving up the "expert" qualification ladder, but in no community but amatuer radio has it been maintained that every member must be on this learning curve.

It's time to realize that there is a base population that just wants to USE it.

Herein appears to be the crux of this thread's disagreement - there are those of us with no interest in technical understanding, no desire to ever mess with code, who are and will continue to be good operators.

There are those of you who want to know the whys and hows of everything radio, and we depend on you to advance the science.

There is room for all of us.

And yes, in response to a post way back in this thread - I would be willing to pay $50/yr. in licensing fees if it would be spent on enforcement!

I have been cruising the frequencies on my new HT for a month now, just listening and getting a feel for ham radio practices and procedures, and have heard only one unauthorized, ugly transmission, and he wandered off in less than five minutes.

Congratulations to all amatuers for keeping it that way!

Interestingly, I have yet to hear a conversation on the air as vituperative, argumentative and strident as those I read here online!

Have fun,
Ed

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Kent, I was begging your question about "the Quality Ham". You by your previous statements are obviously identifying yourself as such a Ham. I still being in quite the 'learning stage' relative to the physics question I posed, and also many other aspects of radio, am seeking your fine counsel.

You didn't tell me anything definitive in the way of answering my questions. What you stated about the maunder minimum I could have looked up for myself. You merely recited history.

I want your 'Expert Ham' insight! That you are also an astronomer I should think should make this easy. So, when can I expect to work all continents on 50 MHz with a hot (front-end) radio, and a modest antenna arrangement. The typical set-up in 1958 was with 6AK5's, and a pair of 30 foot boom Yagi's at about 60 foot height.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hey Ed, just thinking a little bit on having perspective radio knowledge, how about this.

Since in your CB experience, you mention using Bi-Linears. Now, in once sense, I don't even know what that means. I asked a CB'er once about his Bi-Linear, I asked, 'does that mean it is biased Class B'. He had no idea what I was talking about, and thusly, there was an immediate impasse to any further discussion. He had no way of telling me the configuration of his amplifier, nor could he answer why he was using it. We both conceded that its use was illegal.

Anyway, my point is this, I wonder:

1) Why you moraly found it desirable to use an illegal amplifier?

2) Why would you found it ethically necesary to break the rules?

Since in the time frame you reference, the front-end of these radios was at least 3 times better than the older designs. That means that the guy your talking to is effectively running a 32 Watt transmitter, even if he is really only putting out 4 Watts. What would motivate you to use more power, you are then only causing harm to some other communication!

My Opinion is 2 cents of psuedo-intellectual trash

by WA2JJH on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

ok. It seems there are two types of hams.

a)They want to better themselfs by really knowing the theory. They may go on to an EE or B.S.E.T. They may have a science degree. They want to talk to like minded technical/scientific types.

b)World wide communicator. I just want a two way SHORTWAVE radio. I can chit chat and learn others culture. I have no idea how TX's nd RX's work.
I have a right to have my HAM-CB! I WANT MY HAMCB!

ok, A FINAL SOLUTION. LET THEM BE between 24-29mhz at 100W max. Though in 2M too. So one can save on cell phone bills. Fine.

I would give you 5 MHZ of legal freeband.
Mean while will you be able to afford a Communicator rig, if you job gets out sourced to Tim Buck TU!

I like how ham radio helped me become and electrical engineer and a bio-medical engineer. I liked it that my EXTRA ticket opened doors for me in BDCST too.

You communicator people are NO better or worse then us. OK?
I am sorry if it offend you that ham radio did so much for me. It can for you too. I am not against a limited
HF 100W communicator service.
However, who are you going to ask for help with the youths in gangs because they did not have a better way!

Ham radio is a resource. It is a hobby too.
You ca communicate all you want on 6M SSB and 10M SSB/FM. I guess you want 20M at 1KW for a bonus too.

So one can be resource. One can also speed up out sourcing! Free country.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....I ask this question. Would it be such a horrific thing to try! If more workers had the electronics knowledge, would that be bad for our economy?

Have a nice day.

RE: My Opinion is 2 cents of psuedo-intellectual t

by K6BBC on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

RE: The above post.

Huh?

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> Tell me what were the basic reasons that the Maunder > minimum ocurred?

God wanted cold winters in Europe.

> Will this function repeat itself?

Yes. God likes cold winters.

> Are we now in the down-side of such a trend?

It wasn't a trend. It was an anomoly.

> If so, when will this trend swing back the other
> direction, when we can once again expect Solar
> maxima's akin to those of 1958?

Right after the next ice age concludes.

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

John;

If you look back, you’ll note that you were the one who first used the phrase “Quality Ham” in our discussion. It was this usage that prompted me to ask you for a definition. Your only response was a “pop quiz” on Solar Physics.

In your most recent post you said: >>“I was begging your question about "the Quality Ham". You by your previous statements are obviously identifying yourself as such a Ham.”<<

Well………..One of us is confused, and I’m fairly certain that it’s not me. I was dead serious when I asked you what you meant by “Quality Ham”. I certainly don’t know what that means………And furthermore, I don’t believe that I will ever apply that term to myself. In the first few years of holding a NCT license, I have had so many negative experiences with “Real Hams” that I now avoid using the word “Ham” to describe myself. When asked, I simply say that I am an ARS licensee. (I’m sure that would make the OF who first awarded me the title of “Appliance Operator” very happy!)

Now………concerning your question: You asked when you’ll again be able to work the world with a 50 year old 6m setup.

John………I’m not even going to grace that with a reply, ….beyond suggesting you dial “Miss Cleo’s” 900 number. To even attempt to address such a question with a specific answer would be displaying a total ignorance as to the true complexity of long term cycles, and their interactions. (Even the fools involved in the “Global Warming” debate have figured that much out!)

Finally, I’m not Marty. I am not entertained by endless, pointless debate. So,….unless you have something real to add, let’s stick a fork in this and call it “Done”.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by W9WHE-II on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

A new ham writes:

"My first impression from these books [ARRL publications] was that ham had not changed since the '60s or even before - even the pictures in these books are ancient black-and-white photos of antique ham shacks, I don't recall a single picture in any of them of technology less than 20 years old!"

Yep! That's right.
Although ARRL claims to "update" these books with regularity, the so-called "updating" is, in reality, just an excuse to raise the price to fund an ever-increasing desire for $$$$ to fund an ever-increasing staff and their retirement accounts.

RE: My Opinion

by KG5JJ on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"I bought my radios, linears, antennas, whatever, and paid CB shops to tweak and tune 'em up - never had any desire to work on them but wanted them simply to work! I run 450/500 bi-linears in my cars and those puppies can both listen and talk, and that's all I want to know about CB."

++++++++++++++

I don't buy the premise that you may bring (to amateur radio) the "kind" of operator we need. In the above statement, you say you "run" CB amplifiers in your cars. If "run" means "presently", they are still illegal, and you may lose your amateur radio license, have your equipment confiscated, and fined for each infraction.

If "run" was meant as "ran", then I apologize for even bringing this up.

It is ironic that you tell the reasons for the social degradation of CB, then cite your illegal operation of the service.

Again, if your illegal amplifier days are over, I apologize for bringing this up, and welcome you to the fraternity/sorority...we need help cleaning-up our own service of illegal amplifiers used by contesters and other amateurs.

73 KG5JJ (Mike)

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Kent, you seem to read only the portions of my answers that you desire to respond to. If you are going to pick them apart it that manner, nothing I say will make any sense to you.

I have to admit that I was sort of twisting your tail with the Maunder Minimum business. If anyone was able to accurately assess such events, he or she would be worthy of a lot more than the Nobel Prize, and I would certainly call them a 'Quality Ham'.

As I said to you though, my answer was contained in my 3rd posting of Nov. 16th. If you don't read all of the postings, and particularly those of someone that you are engaged in a serious point for point discussion, how can you expect to resolve the point?

Also, you missed my point about the manner that I would now wish to be able to work such a 'High Solar Indices' event should it occur. My wording 'with a hot front-end radio' shows that you miss the point, lest I say, 'you don't get it'. Don't get pissed, I'm not trying to aggravate you. What that statement begged the question of though AS I WROTE IT was, 'now that we are not in the old days with 6AK5's etc, how will I be able to do this now with less than a pair of 30 foot boom Yagi's. I was not seeking to re-live the old days, I acknowledge that my station today is aboou 100 times better than that old design equipment.

Tell you what, read all of my posts. They all used serious examples, even the one where I was having some fun with you. If you see something I said that seems wrong, or bad etc, point out that posting to me by date and a few of my words. I will read your point, look back at my statement, and I will respond specifically.

You need to realize that I am very serious about my views. Do a Google search using my callsign, and a few contextual words, and you will find about 14 years of similar points and articles that I have written in the past.

73, this is all for a good purpose! de John

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

John:

I’m not “picking apart” your posts…………I’m responding to the specific statements that I have questions about. Others on this forum (cough…Marty…cough) pick for the sake of picking. I think that there’s a significant difference.

Please don’t take this badly, but unless your last name is Hemingway, I feel disinclined to read fourteen year’s worth of your writings. I simply have other things to accomplish in the course of a day.

In closing your post, you said; >>”…….. this is all for a good purpose!”<<

Why don’t you do a favor for all of us who’s “vision” is failing, (or at least not corresponding to yours)?............Clearly and concisely state what your point, or “Good Purpose” is; ….so that we can all clearly see and understand what you have devoted 14 years to?

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Kent, It's pretty well all contained in the posts that I have made on this thread. I'll bet you can read them all in about 15 minutes. If you don't want to go to that much trouble, you just won't get my point!

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

John;

All I asked for is a clear, concise, restatement of exactly what your point is. If your previous posts were all that clear on the subject, I wouldn’t be asking the question……Please don’t be obtuse.

If such a restatement is, in your words, “too much trouble”……….then fine! This discussion is over.

Just don’t be surprised when new licensees like myself, who come from “non-traditional” backgrounds, fail to “sign on” with the traditional “Ham” program.

Have fun!...........and no,…….. I won’t be “seeing you on the bands”.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Don't be obtuse, thats a laugh! It is you sir who are obtuse. You haven't gotten the point of several specific statements. You haven't been able to devine the point contained within a single paragraph. Thats obtuse.

That you would like or expect me to encapsulate 14 years of observations about Ham radio in one short statement is also obtuse.

Your obtuse responses to clearly worded hypothesis, analysis, or examples are part of why Ham radio is declining. You say you are not a contributor to these threads merely for the sake of argument? Thats not the way I see it.

Your right, I'm done with trying to communicate with you!

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

The word TECHNICAN infers that you have some kind of technical knowledge. In the case of Amateur Radio a TECHNICAN CLASS ticket holde is ASSUMED to have some kind of technical knowledge about the science of radio commincation.

The Technician Class test is to prove you have enough knowledge not to cause trouble on the bands. But it does not appear to stop some JERKS from causing DELIBERATE problems.

The Novice Class ticket was intended as an ENTRY POINT license to allow such a preson to acquire sufficiant knowlede to upgrade to a higher class.

Those that don't want to take a test should just go back to Citizens Band or FRS!

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by K6BBC on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

OBTUSE!!!

You boys are talkin likes you gots edgeekation. Stop puttin on them airs?

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> The word TECHNICAN infers that you have some kind of
> technical knowledge.

Meaning, knowledge of techcnique...

> In the case of Amateur Radio a TECHNICAN CLASS
> ticket holde is ASSUMED to have some kind of
> technical knowledge about the science of radio
> commincation.

art, actually. There's no requirement to know any science; and without said knowledge, but with the knowledge of the techniques of the art of radio communication, one can be fine radio operator.

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hey K6BBC, maybe you can't (excuse me, 'may not') call CQ on my repeater! Hrrrumph, and I do have an edjeecation! Better than Kent anyway!

73! de John

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Hmmmmmm, AE6IP, you are a real pisser aren't you? Even Kent warned me about you!

RE: My Opinion

by K6BBC on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Thanks BFH. For a moment I was having a SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION moment.

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ok,,,, K6BBC, maybe you had better clarify that?

I am a real Shaw Shank fan but, I'm not getting it!

RE: My Opinion

by K6BBC on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Tim Robbins calls the warden "obtuse." Few times I have ever heard the word used in thins context.

Great movie - you have good taste in films.

K6BBC

RE: My Opinion

by WA6BFH on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

BBC, yes, I remember now. It was a wonderful movie! I haven't read the book yet. I'm a pretty avid reader but, Stephen King never before impressed me much! I did like, "The Tommy Knockers".

Some friends and I often use Shawshank as an analogy as to all that is going wrong in the world!

73! de John
PS
Please do try my 6 Meter machine! It will be 'a bit of a haul' from your location but, try anyway. 73!

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> Hmmmmmm, AE6IP, you are a real pisser aren't you?

Hardly. I'm not even in the same league as yourself.

Too bad you'd rather have a pissing match than a conversation. I suspect that somewhere underneath all that misplaced attitude you might be capable of one.

But then I've alway been an optimist.

RE: My Opinion

by KB9YZL on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Sigh……………Once again, I find myself forced into the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Marty.

Kent Carroll
KB9YZL
“Appliance Operator”

RE: My Opinion

by W2DUG on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think everyone who wants to get a ham license should have to demonstrate that they know how to spell "amateur". I don't think that's asking too much. (2NEW4ULS, this is for you).

RE: My Opinion

by VA3IMO on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ed(2NEW4ULS)

Your comments struck me as very well reasoned. I can't comment on the CB experience, but from the perspective of another newbie, I thought you brought a lot of discipline to the process by which you joined the ham community. (This from a verteran who passed his 5 WPM code test last Friday.)

I don't want to claim to speak for all newcomers, but here are some suggestions for those who have been around longer. If you're concerned about the lack of newcomers: first, make them feel welcome; second, try to understand what excited their interest; third, do more of it.

As a marketing guy, I was very interested in Ed's story. Ham radio for him was/is a means to an end, in his case, geocaching. What got me involved in radio again at age 55 (after a pause of 40 years) was sailing. We were planning to take our sail boat to the Carribean and I needed SSB. (In the end, we didn't go south, but I did get my ticket!)

When I realized I would need a ham ticket, I figured I'd never get through the study and testing on my own, so I tried to find some other people in my yacht club to study with me. In the end, 22 of us wrote and passed the exam.

I guess part of what's going on is a debate about whether ham radio should be a broader "church" (including communities interested in technical innovation, communications, etc.) or a narrower one.

If it's the broader church, which I favour, it does beg the question: what unites hams? I would suggest, beyond technical qualifications established by our respective governments, it should be a common set of norms (practices), mutual respect and mutual assistance.

By analogy, the sailing community is a vital one world wide. Sailors everywhere share common norms (rules of the road), seem to respect one another (even cruisers), and have an INCREDIBLE mutual assistance ethic.

RE: My Opinion

by VA3IMO on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ed(2NEW4ULS)

Your comments struck me as very well reasoned. I can't comment on the CB experience, but from the perspective of another newbie, I thought you brought a lot of discipline to the process by which you joined the ham community. (This from a verteran who passed his 5 WPM code test last Friday.)

I don't want to claim to speak for all newcomers, but here are some suggestions for those who have been around longer. If you're concerned about the lack of newcomers: first, make them feel welcome; second, try to understand what excited their interest; third, do more of it.

As a marketing guy, I was very interested in Ed's story. Ham radio for him was/is a means to an end, in his case, geocaching. What got me involved in radio again at age 55 (after a pause of 40 years) was sailing. We were planning to take our sail boat to the Carribean and I needed SSB. (In the end, we didn't go south, but I did get my ticket!)

When I realized I would need a ham ticket, I figured I'd never get through the study and testing on my own, so I tried to find some other people in my yacht club to study with me. In the end, 22 of us wrote and passed the exam.

I guess part of what's going on is a debate about whether ham radio should be a broader "church" (including communities interested in technical innovation, communications, etc.) or a narrower one.

If it's the broader church, which I favour, it does beg the question: what unites hams? I would suggest, beyond technical qualifications established by our respective governments, it should be a common set of norms (practices), mutual respect and mutual assistance.

By analogy, the sailing community is a vital one world wide. Sailors everywhere share common norms (rules of the road), seem to respect one another (even cruisers), and have an INCREDIBLE mutual assistance ethic.

RE: My Opinion

by VA3IMO on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Ed(2NEW4ULS)

Your comments struck me as very well reasoned. I can't comment on the CB experience, but from the perspective of another newbie, I thought you brought a lot of discipline to the process by which you joined the ham community. (This from a verteran who passed his 5 WPM code test last Friday.)

I don't want to claim to speak for all newcomers, but here are some suggestions for those who have been around longer. If you're concerned about the lack of newcomers: first, make them feel welcome; second, try to understand what excited their interest; third, do more of it.

As a marketing guy, I was very interested in Ed's story. Ham radio for him was/is a means to an end, in his case, geocaching. What got me involved in radio again at age 55 (after a pause of 40 years) was sailing. We were planning to take our sail boat to the Carribean and I needed SSB. (In the end, we didn't go south, but I did get my ticket!)

When I realized I would need a ham ticket, I figured I'd never get through the study and testing on my own, so I tried to find some other people in my yacht club to study with me. In the end, 22 of us wrote and passed the exam.

I guess part of what's going on is a debate about whether ham radio should be a broader "church" (including communities interested in technical innovation, communications, etc.) or a narrower one.

If it's the broader church, which I favour, it does beg the question: what unites hams? I would suggest, beyond technical qualifications established by our respective governments, it should be a common set of norms (practices), mutual respect and mutual assistance.

By analogy, the sailing community is a vital one world wide. Sailors everywhere share common norms (rules of the road), seem to respect one another (even cruisers), and have an INCREDIBLE mutual assistance ethic.

RE: My Opinion

by AE6IP on November 24, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

> Sigh……………Once again, I find myself forced into the
> uncomfortable position of agreeing with Marty

Worry less about who you are agreeing with and more about what you are agreeing with.

RE: My Opinion

by KG5JJ on November 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Below is information gleaned from another thread:

Let's all help Riley Hollingsworth out. Report all illegal activity to him. Illegal Transceivers and illegal Linear Amplifiers that many are trying to selling as "Amateur Radio" equipment. The following article tells how to do it.

*************************************************

FCC to Monitor eBay Auction Site for Illegal Items

Oct 24, 2000--The FCC says it has reached an agreement with the eBay auction site that's aimed at curtailing the sale of clearly illegal radio equipment.

FCC Special Counsel for Amateur Radio Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth says eBay has agreed to cooperate in removing advertisements in which the item for sale "is clearly non-certified." Hollingsworth said most of the equipment involved falls into the CB category, including illegal amplifiers.

Hollingsworth said a review team within the Technical and Public Safety Division of the FCC Enforcement Bureau is screening eBay ads each week. He said the practice could be extended to other auction site if the FCC learns of similar problems.

Hollingsworth credits complaints from the Amateur Radio community with getting the new system in place. "I've been collecting complaints for a year, but the amateur community really generated it," he said. Hollingsworth says he sees about 10 complaints a week about auction site advertisements--sometimes several about the same ad--and has been forwarding all complaints he receives to a "duty team" within Technical and Public Safety.

He cautions that complaints should be based on clear-cut FCC rules violations, however, such as attempts to sell illegal linear amplifiers.

"Amateurs can keep sending me items, addressed to fccham@fcc.gov ," Hollingsworth said.

Federal Communications Commission
(FCC)

Part 95 - Subpart D - Rules for CB Service
Citizens Band (CB) Radio Service

RULE 11 - Linear Amplifiers
{A} You may not attach the following items (power amplifiers) to your type-accepted CB transmitter in any way:
[1] External radio frequency [RF] power amplifiers, also called linear amplifiers, or linears;
or
[2] Any other devices which, when used with a radio transmitter as a signal source, are capable of amplifying the
signal.
{B} There are no exceptions to this rule and use of a power amplifier voids your authority to operate the station.
{C} The FCC will presume you have used a linear or other external [RF] power amplifier if-
[1] It is in your possession or on your premises; and
[2] There is OTHER EVIDENCE that you have operated your CB station with more power than allowed by CB Rule
10.
{D} Paragraph C above in this section does not apply if you hold a license in another radio service (HAM, etc.) which allows you to operate an external RF power amplifier.*

*Amplifier must be type-accepted/certificated for the licensed class service.

******************

- 73 KG5JJ (Mike)

My Opinion

by W4ABX on November 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Instead of oldtimers complaining about the loss of their old time cb'ers, wannabe, 1.5kw! filter, aka morse code, more hams that have climbed the ranks to the top of the hill should get involved man to man with a technician, tech-plus or any interested individual and mentor these folks to become the best they can be in as little time as possible.
The new motto for this new millenium should be at all levels, and in all ham oriented organizations "NO HAMS LEFT BEHIND!" Whatever it takes, push, shove, or drag anyone with the ambition to get a tech license to get on with upgrading to their level.
We are all hams, and we could all share the same priveleges, morse code or not.
73's to all, and to all a Happy Thanksgiving!
Mike Jackson
W4ABX

My Opinion

by KC2WI on November 25, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yup. A lot of the problem is appliance operators that do not have any understanding of even the technical basics.

Memorize the rules and regulations, fine. Memorize the basic concepts and relationships (equations), fine.

Memorize the entire question pool - big problem.

I'm not saying everyone has to be an electrical engineer and understand all the details. Heck, I have an electrical engineering degree but I wouldn't be able to do major repairs on today's radios because they are so complex. Probably at this point I couldn't design anything to complicated either, becaue I've been out of the mainstream for too long. But at least I understand basically how stuff works.

However, judging by the comments I regulalrly hear on the repeaters, many hams have no understanding of even Ohm's law, much less anything like antenna resonance. I'll bet out of 10 hams I know, only one or two could come up with the correct length for a dipole, correctly measure the loss in a piece of coax, or make a rough estimation of how many amps a 40 watt radio will require.

We have a problem here folks. One of the main "common bonds" that has held the amateur radio community together is being lost.

My Opinion

by AC6CV on November 26, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I stated several years ago that the only thing that separates CB and Amateur Radio is the technical knowledge. As we continue to dumb down the Amateur test we become more like CB every day. Its not the code. Its tecnical knowledge. Many hams today can't even connect a rice box to a vertical antenna without high SWR. Hmmmm. Whats SWR? I predict that within 10 to 15 years no test will be required for Amateur Radio, except where can I transmit.

My Opinion

by KD5VXK on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I believe when the good ol boys in this wonderful Hobby stop and take a look in the mirror about your attitudes towards the Technicians and come out of your so called "THE GROUP" attitudes. And possibly become more of an Elmer. Then Technicians would want to be more technically inclined. My hat off to NX5W and KD5KU. I have been studying and reading every bit of information about HAM Radio I can get my hands on for the last year and a half. Four out of my five antennas are homebrew that I Built.
There are a few Generals and Extra's that will go out of there way to be very helpful. I have had questions answered from this site from GREAT Ham's.

Bottom Line; Helping each Other will Strengthen This
Wonderful Hobby. God Bless All, KD5VXK, testing for AG
in two weeks.

My Opinion

by N0EW on November 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I think the UN-availability of technical information, explained in non-engineer terms, is the heart of the problem.

It seems every time I wish to develop a project I hit this wall.

Sometimes there are kits, but they normally do not explain anything about the theory underlying the project.

Sometimes there are QST articles. These always are disappointing: if you already know how to build the device, great, but if you don't reading their articles will not have brought you much closer to being able to complete the project. I like to think of their articles as places to brainstorm ideas -- but certainly not as wells of information instructing me how to do complete a project.

There are PDF data sheets. These are a fun read! You can tell they have useful information, but they are targeting engineers, so good luck!

I've actually found eHam to be helpful and the few other hams I know that are in fact engineers and have the ability to effectively communicate with non-engineers (not always an easy thing to do I imagine).

But even this often leads to dead ends. My desire to build a satellite duplexer is a case in point. Started out not even knowing where to start, harrassed a local enthusiast, posted here, had many helpful comments and links provided, all of which I traced down. Ended up not being able to build it because I didn't have the ability to measure that small of inductance to make the coils. Found a couple people working in the field that provided technically accurate information, but which required lab equipment unavailable to me in Springfield, MO. (One person had suggested just going down the street and borrowing the equipment!! In that case, the piece of equipment was so expensive that everyone I asked, rented it from out-of-town contractors.)

My current mission (pardoning the upcoming pun) is trying to determine how to build a RF current meter I can insert between my rig and screwdrver antenna.

I've figured out all the old meters I've been buying at hamfests are NOT good for measuring current at RF (dough!!) -- I need to measure the temperature change instead. Great.... Off I go searching for a similar project, and have been looking for several hours now, and I find this article...

This is why I say the lack of digestable knowledge, that can be readily found, is the problem. I really do like to know how things work and I do pester others and read many articles and books, and any other means of finding out more about the innerds of the equipment I use in ham radio.

I think the answer is to take a 2-year electronics course, then find a radio repair shop and work there for a few years. Then I may have a fair beginning on understanding the innerds of our really cool ham radio toys!

Over the last several years of trying to learn about radio, antennas, and the pieces of equipment we use has very much been an uphill battle -- both ways! I wish it were otherwise. I personally think there is a market for a set of projects that both results in useful equipment, and explains the theory in detail. I think these projects would be well received. If I were an engineer and had a few engineer friends with similar interests I would set out to create the modern version of Heath Kits. I am not, and have not seen anyone express interest in following this path. Even Elecraft doesn't explain what is actually taking place in the radio so that one leaves the experience now really understanding why a modern radio works.

We need a cure for ignorance. Not all hams are engineers. Not all hams work in the radio or electronics industries.

Clint Hurd's PSK-31 projects are one example of one person imparting more than glue chip A into slot B. He is helping actually to educate others about a specific area of ham radio. We need a lot more of this!

It is NOT like the 'old days' where you HAD to build your own (simple) rig just to get started. Those of us begining our ham quest don't generally get our hands dirty and burn our fingers with solder. We buy appliances. Those of us that are trying to learn in great detail about ham radio have no effective place to start, other than a 2-year electronics course at the (maybe) local community college.

My $0.02.

RE: My Opinion

by K5MYJ on November 28, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Suggestions for people want to learn something about radio electronics by building things.

The good kits of the past are history. But eBay gives us access to most of these kits. Some need repair, most need at least calibration. In many cases you may need to go on an expidtion to find the needed parts. But most are available or at least an acceptable substitute.

For anyon want who wants to work with RF deivces on of the best pieces of equipment to get is a Heath "Dip Meter". These are one of the most useful instruments for homebrewers. They will let you measure the approximate inductance of a coil. They will show the resonant frequency of a LC pair. They will allow you to measure the RF of a tank circuit in operation.

The question of a RF ampmeter. These were common in WWII transmitters. They use the voltage of a thermacouple in the antenna line. A better solution is to buy one of the Heath "Power Meters" such as the HM-102. This meter gives you power and SWR. The documentation for most of these items is available.

Buy some old ARRL handbooks off eBay. But keep about 5 years between them or you just get lots of books about the same subjects. Prior to 1978 you will find lots of serios construction projects. In the late 60s there was a transition from tube stuff to solid state stuff. Most of the solid state stuff is easily built today. The tube stuff takes a little more work to find the parts. But the Internet is a wondeful place. Every week I find a nother source of tube componets. Tubes are still being manufactured in Russia and China.

Some of the fun beginner projects in the OLD ARRL handbooks are the regenerative receivers and the simple CW transmiters. To play on HF you still nedd to learn the code. And these old handbooks have just the thing for simple NOVICE class transmitters. You can build a novice class transmitter for less than $100. There was an article in one of the recent CQ magazines on a 6L6 tube transmitter. Look at that one.

If you really want to play with this kind of stuff invest is some Heathkit test equipment. Like a VTVM and a RF signal generator. You can also fine Heathkit scopes on eBay that still work. Buying some with problems and fixing them is also a good way to learn how this stuff works.

Back to the handbooks. If you have access to a club that has these old handbooks you can look at what happened to them over a period of years. About 1980 they started making the transition from a builders hobby to an operators hobby. Every year there were less serious builders projects.

You can start this with a small investment. If you like it you can continue. If you don't like it you can sell the stuff on eBay or at a local hamfest.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ/7
Seattle, Wa.

"REAL RADIOS GLOW IN THE DARK"

RE: My Opinion

by W5ESE on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

N0EW
----

> It seems every time I wish to develop a project I
> hit this wall.

> Sometimes there are kits, but they normally do
> not explain anything about the theory underlying
> the project.

erik,

there is a kit from small wonder labs, the sw+ series
transceiver. it works *very* well, is inexpensive, and
is a joy to use.

http://smallwonderlabs.com/swl_swp.htm

on the web is an online course, called "elmer 101".
it describes, almost on a component by component
level, what makes this little rig tick.

http://www.qsl.net/kf4trd/faq.html

hope this helps!
73
scott w5ese

RE: My Opinion

by KB2SEO on January 20, 2006 Mail this to a friend!

Why say the questions are DUMBED DOWN because a 9 year old can take the test? My 10 year old passed it 6 years ago! He is now a General and more Polite, considerate of others and public serviced minded than the vast majority of the boobs who grump day after day about the situation and the "way it is" Dont like it? CHANGE IT! But.. But.. Yes sir, it takes a committment, it takes dedication,IT TAKES WORK!

We, as Hams need to point out the poor operations and CORRECT IT! I teach folks how to become Hams, they are not stupid as the term DUMB DOWN would imply, They are folks who want a hoby they would enjoy. they build antennas, they join ARES or they Rag chew. This is DUMB?

If you think the Hobby is falling below Par, JOIN up with other like minded folks, become a OO or help out at the next License Class. Your impression of what a "Good Ham" is will stick to these new folks a lot more than you will think.

When you hear some TOAD trying to bait a group into a problem on the repeater, INSTRUCT the users there that this guy is the EXCEPTION. don't engage him and he'll sulk away. a lot of these LIDS are the same jerks who'd disrupt a classroom in school, he's the clown at the meeting who ALWAYS has some reason to shoot down a good idea. He's the guy who says it'll never work or WHY DO THAT?

He is also the close minded idiot who says in front of a lot of folks, proud of their newly aquired ticket that they did not EARN their license. regardless of how they took the test. No, they did not go to the scary FCC building where some psycho with a pocket protector jammed a paper in front of him and said "draw me the schematic of ...."

They are folks like my 2 kids who wanted to do something positive for the community and joined Skywarn and helped at Hamfests and emergencies. they are folks like my wife who saw the ticket as a new outlet to enjoy time and to meet people in the new town we moved to.

These Dumb down test takers are people we love and care about.

The Dummies are those who go out of their way to insult them.

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