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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Plan A

Charles Brabham (N5PVL) on December 12, 2004
View comments about this article!

Plan A

Another Look at Amateur Packet Radio Networking

by Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Digital HF

In many ways, the most awe-inspiring resource that amateurs interested in digital communications have at our disposal is access to the HF bands. The long distances and wide areas covered by even relatively low powered HF signals allow amateurs to build, organize and operate an independent digital communications network on a global scale, something no other group of private individuals can reasonably expect to do. We are a uniquely privileged group of people, in this respect.

At this time, early in the new century, amateurs are only beginning to realize some of the great potential inherent in digital HF communications. Hams have enthusiastically taken to the new soundcard digital modes such as psk31 that allow great DX ragchewing at low power with modest antenna systems, all within a fraction of the bandwidth previously thought to be necessary for such communications. Alternately, the new wide modes such as PACTOR III and Q15x25 mode allow data throughput that was unheard of, only a few years ago. Despite these advances, we are only just beginning to take advantage of the great potential of the HF bands. Digital HF is still very new, and we have a long path of discovery and innovation ahead of us.

Point to Point

Amateurs have developed point-to-point networking technique on HF, taking advantage of the great distances it is possible to regularly and reliably communicate there. A network of Packet, PACTOR, and CLOVER stations have been providing global-scale communications services to amateurs for close to two decades now, with RTTY and AMTOR mail systems going even further back than that. It wasn't until Packet radio and the packet BBS came on the scene though, that an organized amateur radio digital network emerged as a global entity. Perhaps it is for this reason that this anarchic network incorporating several modes besides packet is still generally referred to as "the packet network".

Amateur Radio BBS stations use a simple but effective hierarchical addressing system that allows them to route messages to other Amateur BBS's anywhere on the planet. This system has given us a reliable and useful global messaging system, with limited bulletin capability. The bulletins are a problem in this point-to-point network, since they are addressed to "All" within a large, possibly even global distribution. The HF BBS forwarding system is great for sending a targeted message to a particular destination, often doing so faster than the Internet. For wide-area distribution of bulletin traffic though, the point-to-point networking we employ on HF is less than ideal. It doesn't take too many bulletins at all to slow the entire network down to a near-halt, eventually affecting its ability to do its primary tasks; Moving targeted emergency communications, NTS and personal messages.

Many Packet BBS stations today have responded to the bulletin glut by reducing the number of bulletin distributions that they will accept or forward. Almost all HF packet BBS stations in the U.S. forward ARRL and AMSAT bulletins, if nothing else. Most forward the @USA and @ALLUS distributions as well, plus statewide bulletins. The global distribution @WW is most often passed up, simply because it is too much data to squeeze through the pipe, and trying to do so tends to gum up the works.

This situation does not hold true with the wider modes like CLOVER, PACTOR II and PACTOR III. Through a combination of grabbing more bandwidth with a wider signal and utilizing clever data squeezing technique, these systems generally have enough through-put to handle all the available traffic today, including the @WW distribution. The problem with wide-bandwidth systems of course is that you cannot put very many of them on the air at one time, and this limits the number of locations that can be served by wide-bandwidth systems. They have to be used judiciously, with moderation.

The HF digital network has greater capability and capacity than in past years, but at this writing has not fully recovered from the slump it experienced in the late 1980's and so does not pass nearly as much traffic as it once did. Much of the original integrity of the network on HF has been regained, but the VHF/UHF networks that many of these HF BBS stations serviced are not as active as in years past.

The HF Digital Networking Conundrum

No coin has only one side, and the case of HF radio communication is no exception to this rule. The great distance and coverage area of HF transmissions is balanced by the reduced "recycle-ability" and lower data transmission rates on HF.

If you transmit 50 watts on 440 MHZ, chances are that hams 100 miles away will never hear you. They can "re-cycle" the same frequency without either of you being bothered. If you transmit with 50 watts on 20 meters though, you can wind up being heard almost anywhere in the world. Because of this reduced "recycle-ability" of HF signals, only so many stations can be on the air at one time, especially on a wide-coverage band like 20 meters, where you can literally end up being heard anywhere. So we have the capability to cover wide areas and long distances on HF, but the number of stations doing so and the amount of bandwidth they take up must by necessity be limited.

From a digital networking standpoint, there's much more to it... Consider the following:

---------------------------------
Distance     / Frequency 

Long haul       20 / 30 meters, sporadically 15 / 10. 
Medium          40 / 80 meters.
Short           VHF/UHF and higher. 
---------------------------------


---------------------------------
Baud Rate    / Frequency 

300 baud        12 - 160 meters 
1200 baud       10 meters 
9600 baud       VHF
1 MB            UHF and higher
--------------------------------- 

Anybody who is familiar with point-to-point networking practice will tell you that the long-haul "backbone" links within the network should be much faster and of higher capacity than the short-range, local "user access" links. If user access is at 1.2kb for example, and you expect to host up to eight users on the long-haul "backbone" link at one time, then 9.6kb will be a minimum "backbone" speed if you wish to maintain what is known as "transparency", where the 1.2kb users never detect a network-related slowdown.

Transparency is what you shoot for, as a point-to-point networker. If users don't know that you are there, then viola! You get no complaints. The greater the ratio between backbone and user-access speed, the greater your level of transparency, and the greater peak number of users and applications your network can support at one time.

Perhaps you've guessed the big conundrum by now... Our long-haul, "backbone" frequencies on HF are much, much slower than the VHF/UHF short-range "user access" frequencies! That is the direct opposite of the desired situation for point-to-point networking, putting transparency far beyond our grasp. This represents the core challenge of digital amateur radio networking. - The stone-wall that will not go away.

This is a challenge that terrestrial (wire/fiber-optic) networkers do not know how to overcome because in their experience, they can simply hook up a higher capacity cable for the backbone. We can't do that for any price, and so must consider network structure and organization that would be completely nonsensical from the point of view of a wired system networker. These fundamental differences between digital ham radio and terrestrial wired systems are why we end up being so dissatisfied with the results we get, when we model our efforts after conventional digital networks such as FidoNet or the Internet.

What this means is that we must develop a networking system of our own, and not put ourselves further into the trap of trying to emulate the performance, capability or methods of terrestrial networks that run over a wire or cable. We can reasonably expect the digital ham radio net to perform better than wired networks - but not at the same tasks, and not by doing things in the same way.

Instead of dissing ourselves because we cannot "compete with the Internet", we must look for and develop the strong points to be found in working with radio. It is a wonderful challenge and opportunity for amateurs; a lot more fun and far more productive than to continue trying to fit our RF peg into the Wire hole.

Suggestion: Quit modeling our RF network exclusively after existing wired networks.

What we as amateurs are doing is singular and new. We have the privilege of doing something unique. Hams are the pioneers here, the innovators, because no other group of private individuals has access to so many slices of prime spectrum as we do. The ability to interface with establishment (wired) networks should of course be retained to facilitate emergency communications, but internally our network should be designed by hams to reflect our network's singular makeup and unique operating environment. To do otherwise can only lead us to more disappointment, and more poor performance.

Imagine trying to operate a boat on the water the same way you would a car on the road system... Stoplights, turn lanes, slam on the brakes, and don't bump over the curb! It would be pretty ridiculous, and is directly comparable to modeling our global RF network on any of the wired networks. They have the roads to follow, but we must direct ourselves over the waters, where there are no curbs, no stoplights and most significantly, no roads! ( High-capacity, long-haul backbone links. )

It should be obvious to all that what we are doing is fundamentally different from any other network in existence because our resources, regulation, our reason for being, and our organizational structure is totally different from that of any other case.

It was natural for amateurs to look to professional networkers from the telecommunications and I.T. industries to advise us on building a digital network of our own. There was no way for us to understand at that time that our needs and resources would be so different from those related to the existing networks. We began to find out though, when professionals associated with wired networks only had so much to contribute to our cause before they ran across a set of parameters they had no idea how to handle.

At least part of the frustration these experts experience stems from the basic unfairness of the situation that they have been put into. Put on the spot as professional networkers to help design a Ham Radio digital network, they are embarrassed and frustrated when they discover that they cannot "deliver" because Ham Radio's long-haul "backbone" links will always be of lower capacity and slower speed than user access, the direct opposite of the parameters they have been trained to expect and to work with.

We have been unfair to these hams, and we really ought to let them off the hook. They could not do everything we asked, but still we have learned a lot from experts in wired systems, and we owe them our most sincere thanks, along with an apology for putting them on the spot like we did. Many of these individuals became so frustrated that they soured on the hobby, and understandably so. It was an honest mistake that we made though, and it's easy to see how we ended up making it... Sorry, guys!

The Ham Radio Perspective

Once we get past the expectations and perceived needs of wired networking and start to look at amateur radio digital networking as a new thing, unique in the world, we are suddenly freed of several unreasonable burdens. Simultaneously we discover opportunities that were not apparent to us before. Instead of attempting to stretch and squeeze our resources (assets and expectations) to fit the procrustean bed of wired networking's architecture and protocols, we can now take a look at what we have, determine what we want, and develop a digital communications network that perfectly fits our unique needs and circumstances.

As has always been the case, amateurs serve themselves and the public best when we innovate, not being content to merely emulate. This is especially so when you consider amateur radio's unique resources and structure, which sets us apart from any other communications entity. Amateurs enjoy freedoms, abilities, resources and responsibilities unique in the world today. This is our privilege as hams, and to approach the unique task of building a global amateur radio digital network is one of many unique honors the amateur service offers to its members.

Amateur radio is justly famous for its ability to draw together individuals from around the world into a truly global fraternity of service, advancement and amity. The amateur service adopted this fine brace of attitudes intact from the experimenters whose pioneering work with radio preceded the organization, and this fact is reflected by the many great activities that amateurs engage in today, alternately in cooperation and/or in competition so as to encourage advancement of the art.

Amateurs who participate in the ham radio digital network have special reason to be proud, as their work represents a new watermark in cooperation and fellowship among amateurs on an international scale. Working with little guidance while going where none had gone before, very often upon "shoestring" resources, amateurs around the world responded to the Packet revolution in the 1980's by building an independent amateur radio digital network with a global footprint. Still active and advancing today, this network has enormous potential that we have yet to even partially develop, employ and enjoy.

What We Have

The digital amateur radio network as a global entity today is given that definition almost solely through the service provided by BBS SYSOPs, forwarding messages on HF frequencies as part of a global point-to-point message forwarding network. The HF component of that network uses several modes and protocols including Packet, CLOVER, PACTOR, and others. These hams are pioneers in an aspect of amateur radio that has a limitless future of service and advancement, that is more than likely to embody the core of the worldwide amateur service in the near future and for many years to come.

Incremental advances in throughput have been accomplished for our HF operations, but always at the price of increased bandwidth. In practical terms, there is a speed limit on the low bands, and assigning ever-wider chunks of our spectrum for digital use is not a viable answer to the challenge we enjoy as ham radio digital networkers. Instead of intruding upon other hams in order to put an ineffective band-aid upon our lack of a high-capacity backbone on HF, we should make more effective, efficient use of what we have. We have a lot, in fact, that we simply are not using at all, and this applies every bit as much to HF as it does to the VHF and higher frequencies.

What We Have Overlooked

To see what we have with HF that we have not been using, we only need to take a look at what is special about radio, and what is special about HF when compared to the higher frequencies. The special things I remember hearing about HF were the long range and wide coverage area possible with HF signals.

What we have today is a point-to-point network modeled after wired network architecture, which takes good advantage of the long range that HF signals can offer. This network has given us a lot and will always be vital to our overall integrity, but it has also fallen short of our needs in some areas and needs more help than VHF/UHF networks can reasonably be expected to provide.

What we have ignored and not used is the other positive attribute inherent in HF communications; the large area that HF signals can effectively cover. This is much like having a floodlight and a laser pointer in each hand, and trying to navigate in the dark with just the pointer.

Happily enough, we already use the protocol that will unleash the true power of HF digital communications, but only AMSAT routinely utilizes this communications protocol today, where one transmitting station serves many receiving amateur stations simultaneously. This communications protocol is called MULTICAST, and its use by amateurs was pioneered by AMSAT.

Many hams are familiar with the National Weather service's EMWIN transmissions, which use a similar multicast protocol for terrestrial digital communications over a local area.

A terrestrial multicast package for hams, RadioMirror, was developed by John Hansen W2FS but as with the other multicast systems mentioned above, RadioMirror was designed for use on VHF and UHF bands, not for the conditions to be encountered on HF.

Development of multicast server and client software specifically designed for use on HF would be a good example of how we can fill the functional gaps left by point to point networking. By happy coincidence, point-to-point networks return the favor, filling gaps in what multicast can accomplish. Working together, the two can provide us with capability on HF that is undreamed-of today. It has been undreamed-of because we have been too distracted by the wired-network model, spending our time trying to navigate in the dark with a laser pointer instead of just turning on the floodlight that was there for us all along.

To demonstrate the natural advantage of multicast to a group of people, write the words "Point to point networking" on a piece of paper, and have the folks pass it around hand to hand until everybody has gotten the message.

Then use a projector (or hold up a large sign) to place the word "Multicast" above the podium, where everybody can "receive" it simultaneously. The larger the number of message recipients, the more obvious the speed advantage of multicast over point-to-point, just as it is in the real world, on the air.

This enormous speed advantage of distributing information simultaneously to an unlimited number of recipients located within a wide coverage area has of course been available to us as hams all along, but we have never thought to develop it because it did not fit in with the wired-network concepts we have been modeling our digital amateur radio networks after. It is time now that we started looking "beyond the wire", utilizing the built-in advantages inherent in radio as compared to wired communications.

A single HF multicast transmitter can serve an unlimited number of client (receiving) stations, and those receiving stations only need a shortwave receiver and a computer with a soundcard to receive that data. Even a simple kit receiver would do the job, and SWL enthusiasts as well as hams would enjoy the educational material and information about ham radio that our multicasts will contain. Any type of file may be sent via multicast, but HTML and text will long be the mainstays because they pack so much information within relatively small files, and because most messaging is text or HTML based.

* Multicast directly addresses one of HF's greatest drawbacks (low recycle-ability) by allowing one transmitter to distribute data to an unlimited number of receiving stations.

* Multicast directly addresses one of HF's greatest assets (wide area coverage) that has previously been overlooked and so has not been effectively utilized by amateurs.

Wired networking technique could only take us so far with radios... It is time for us to move on now, and develop amateur radio networking technique.

How Multicast Works

Multicast stations act as a file server/client system. RadioMirror, the terrestrial multicast server/client package can send individual files, or entire directories complete with sub-directories. It can send files/directories once, or include them in its continuous transmission of data. A mirror image of this directory structure and its files is reproduced on many client station's hard-drives simultaneously.

On the RadioMirror server's end, the files/directories are sent after being cut up into one kilobyte "data blocks". Each data block has a checksum so the client software will be able to check and see if it has received that data block with no errors. The data is cut up into blocks like this to facilitate error correction. They are cut up into one kilobyte blocks because RadioMirror is designed to work with a KISS TNC, and 1 kilobyte was about as big a packet as could be managed.

Once the server has sent all of the data it has queued, it simply starts back at the beginning again and keeps right on going continuously. The receiving (client) stations that have incomplete files due to corrupted or incompletely received data blocks then get a chance to fill in those gaps every time the data is re-sent. Once a file has been received in its entirety, RadioMirror puts the file on the client's hard drive and that file will not change after that unless the server sends a newer version.

You can have files like "Today's News" that would change and be updated every day, and you would have other files that contained standardized information that only updated every once in a while; FAQ's, technical data, web addresses and so on.

One multicast transmitter can serve an unlimited number of client stations simultaneously. No other digital system for HF is so efficient with spectrum, as the others are all one-on-one communications systems, point-to-point. To get anything done with them over a significant area, dozens of transmitting stations must be on the air at once. With multicast, dozens of receiving stations are utilized instead to accomplish this, a much more sensible and responsible approach. Multicast has an enormous speed advantage over traditional point-to-point systems because of this, even over those that operate at much higher baud rates. - And it does all this while taking up a lot less spectrum.

How to Use Multicast on HF

After attempting to utilize RadioMirror on HF, I found that it was best to use RadioMirror as intended, on the VHF and UHF bands. On HF, several drawbacks immediately became apparent that kept it from being useful there. This is in no way a criticism of RadioMirror, a fine system that was never intended to be used on HF.

* One problem was that I had to power down my 100w transceiver to 15w while transmitting multicast, which is effectively continuous-duty. Otherwise I could be sure that my rig would smoke itself after a short while. Since weak, long packet signals are the very hardest ones to reliably copy on HF, I could see a real problem there. - It had me thinking about buying a 1kw amplifier, then tuning it down to 70w, something I could not expect a significant number of other hams to do. If the multicast server couldn't put out a strong, clear signal, then its efficiency goes rapidly down as its copyable RF "footprint" shrinks.

* Another problem was the long time between updates (data transmission cycles) at 300 baud, the fastest data rate for packet on HF. The lower data rate itself was not a big issue, but the greatly expanded delay in sending updates was. The expanded delay between updates, coupled with the much greater number of updates likely to be needed on HF did not look like a good combination.

* The third major drawback I saw was that RadioMirror required those wanting to receive the data to have a KISS TNC. To get a truly large number of receiving stations, a soundcard solution would be necessary.

For years I mulled this around while the solution stared me in the face. - Then one day it dawned on me!

If we used multiple psk streams instead of Packet, all three of the drawbacks listed above would simultaneously be addressed:

* PSK works just fine at low power levels. My first contact with a Japanese station, I remembered, was on a minimal antenna utilizing 15 watts of power while operating PSK31. I also remembered working QRP psk31 stations on 30 meters. A psk "usable footprint" would be much larger at 15 watts than one for RadioMirror's one kilobyte-long packets, driving efficiency (copy-able coverage area) back up to awesome levels again without frying my 100w rig or requiring an expensive amplifier.

* Many psk programs are capable of encoding/decoding several psk streams at once. Q15x25 mode utilizes 15 psk streams, for example. By using multiple psk streams, and time-staggering the data each one sends, then rapid, multiple opportunities for fills and updates are suddenly a reality, greatly enhancing speed, copy-able coverage area and reliability. While RadioMirror sends its updates and fills in serial fashion, this psk system would do so in parallel (time-staggered), in addition to the original serial update system. (X number of data blocks are being sent at once, "X" being the number of psk streams you decide to use.)

* PSK is a soundcard mode, which would make the transmitted data available to anybody with a shortwave receiver and a computer.

Configuration Options

There are many ways that multiple psk-stream multicast software could be configured. To stay legal in the area of bandwidth, no more than 15 psk streams can be utilized. There are also practical and legal limitations to the baud rate of the individual data streams. Working within these limitations still offers us many potential types of multicast transmissions, tailored to fit specific jobs.

Using multiple streams to effect rapid fills and updates has been mentioned. Another option is to assign psk streams to multiple data feeds. For example: Two psk streams are dedicated to a flash news and announcement system while six other psk streams serve to move the bulk of the everyday data for a total of eight psk streams. The smaller data source's update cycle would be much shorter, so that data would tend update itself much faster and propagate through the network much quicker.

You can double the rate at which the total data is transferred to the recipients by tapping the data at the beginning with several psk streams, simultaneously tapping into the data at the middle with several more. This way, all the data blocks are sent in the time it would normally take to send half of them, while retaining the ability of multiple streams to effect rapid fills and updates on the fly.

The optimum number and configuration of psk streams to use would be a question that can best be answered by trial and error, under varying conditions. Up to fifteen streams can be used of course, but if we could get by with four or five psk streams, a multicast transmission would use no more bandwidth than a standard HF packet signal. It would be slower than the 15-stream version perhaps, but that would be offset by its reduced bandwidth. There is a happy medium there that can best be discovered by direct experimentation. To experiment is so much better than to guess and opine.

Because there is so much to learn, I am hoping that the first "multipsk" or "pskast" (or whatever it ends up being called) software will be sysop-configurable as to the number of data streams utilized. The client software should be able to handle anything from one to fifteen multicast streams without user intervention, so that SYSOPs can experiment with different numbers of data streams under different conditions, to do different jobs.

Networking Multicast

Run both client and server software in the same computer, receiving a distant multicast on one band/freq while passing on updated files via multicast transmission on another. The Server only transmits, and never receives. The client only receives, never transmitting.

Conclusion

Our present dissatisfaction with HF digital communications is solely due to an artificial, self-imposed limitation. We have stunted our own progress by depending far too heavily upon the lessons and expectations of wired networking, which amateur radio is not. There were and are many valuable lessons to be learned from wired networking, but to rely solely upon a non-ham technology to guide the development of our own has proven to be nonproductive, leading to less than satisfactory results.

Part of the reason we have fallen into such a trap was through being content to emulate rather than innovate. More than most, hams were in a good position to appreciate the innovation of the Internet, and our natural awe there led us to believe that we could do no better than to emulate the Internet in our own turn - a supposition that has since proven to be in error, as our ham radio network has different needs and capabilities than any of the wired networks we have since attempted to model our efforts upon. The dissatisfaction and discord some have suffered because of the ensuing frustration has stunted our growth, and tarnished the bright future for digital ham radio that was so widely lauded in the early1980's.

This proposal for psk-driven multicast as the backbone of a global information network is one of many advances that are possible for us when we finally look beyond the wire, when we are no longer content to emulate.

In the mean-time: This proposal has the potential to revolutionize HF digital communications, giving amateurs an information network that can reasonably be expected to cover the entire planet from pole to pole and out to near-earth orbit; Something we can only dream of wistfully while limiting ourselves exclusively to point-to-point networking as we have to date.

Multicast will distribute more data faster to an enormously wider area than our present system, and it will do it while utilizing a fraction of the bandwidth currently required for such a task. At the same time it will remove a crippling burden from our present digital network, allowing it to do its primary job with impressive speed and reliability once again.

Now is a good time for us to remember the bright promise of a global digital network built, operated and maintained by hams. - The attitude that energized us in the 1980's. By moving back to an attitude of innovation and by once again appreciating the unique opportunity we as amateurs are privileged to enjoy, we can step out from behind the protective, smothering coat-tails of the Internet and strike out to see what we can do on our own - as hams using radio.

It is my hope that with this paper I have reminded a few of us how great the amateur service really is, and how much we can accomplish together. - That the boundless pride and optimism about digital amateur radio prevalent in the early 1980's was right all along.

This is my proposal. Thank you for taking time to look it over!

Programmer wanted: Contact:

Charles Brabham, N5PVL
Director: USPacket
http://www.uspacket.org
n5pvl@uspacket.org
Weblog: http://www.hamblog.com/blog_n5pvl.php

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Plan A  
by G3VGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I prefer Plan B - it's called the Internet
 
Plan A  
by KB9YUR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
If and when the Internet goes down, what's Plan C ?!?
 
RE: Plan A  
by K9FV on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I like this idea - you certianly have done a lot of work and thinking in writing this paper - GOOD WORK!!

Ken H>
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

"I prefer Plan B - The Internet."

"If and when the Internet goes down, what's Plan C ?!?"

Plan A.

Charles, N5PVL
 
Plan A  
by KD5IVP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This kind of work needs to be run up the QST flagpole for all to see and ponder. Put it in the "improving the radio art" section. Good stuff!
 
RE: Plan A  
by N3HKN on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Won't this approach be relegated to sending greetings messages, etc waiting for the "big one" when the Internet goes down? If that happens electricity will probably fail and we are on a slide that depends upon military comms as anthrax spores float outside our duct/duck taped windows.

Ham radio is best used in small localized settings. Grand schemes usually end up waiting for a catastrophe where the Hams ride to the rescue. It is not the technical process but the NEED. We always fall back on - are Hams needed and then take our solutions in search of a problem.

I can see this as useful for charitable organizations in large geographical settings but remember the fragile equipment that we use, including PCs, can become the problem leading to Hams in a worse light. Harden the equipment before you stick your neck so far out on a process.
Dick N3HKN
 
Plan A - April Fools?  
by K4RAF on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Nothing new here, unless you are living in 1985, which some clearly are.

Networking on HF to be a "backup" to the internet is a real joke. Is it jealousy or lunacy?

Is it any wonder why "younger folks" have no interest in ham radio?

It has become a museum to great ideas who struggle to cling to the past when they were an advancement...

 
Plan A  
by N3IQA on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N5PV,
Hello - and great article. It is a very good idea, to use psk31 for the backbone of an HF packet network, and to utilize the strength of HF to transmit a single message to multiple receivers.

However, transmiting a single message to multiple receivers is also known as *broadcasting*. This opens up the same (or similar) discussion as we read in answers to my article on Amateur Broadcasting (eHam, Dec 4).

----------------------------

Also, I see that you are interested to find a "programmer". What type? There are systems programmers and applications programmers. Systems programmers do things like load software and set it up, write drivers, and so on, while applications programmers use languages such as COBOL, one of the flavors of C (c++, c#, java) or one of the flavors of Basic (visual basic, etc) to make the computer do useful things. Which type do you need?
 
RE: Plan A  
by N1VLQ on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I like it. What I understand of it. :)

I always wondered why we couldn't utilize PSKish technique for packet-type work.

I look forward to seeing how this proceeds.

Thanks for all the time and thought put into this. I, for one, am interested in trying to make it work, rather than trying to tear it down. Bravo.

73
Bruce, N1VLQ
 
RE: Plan A  
by GHOSTRIDERHF on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Here in California our plan A is the Internet

If my Plan A stops working then our Plan B is a six pack of Miller Draft.

The only problem that i see is that your contigency plan is based on the assumption that whatever bought the Internet down is NOT going to affect Ham radio -- poor assumption...

 
Plan A  
by W5GNB on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
GREAT article and obvously a LOT of thought went into it but GEEEEEZ! How complicated can this hobby get???

I am sure glad my second hobby is FISHING... The only thing I have to worry about there is wether or not the boat engine will start the next time I pull the rope........
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N3HKN asks:
------------
"Won't this approach be relegated to sending greetings messages, etc waiting for the "big one" when the Internet goes down?"

------------

In the article, I suggested some content... @WW packet bulletins for a start, ARRL info, HTML, FAQ's.. and so on. Some of the info would be fresh, some of it updated weekly or monthly. Some even permanent, such as "How to get started in Ham Radio" info, or "How to Join the Global Amateur Radio Network".

Strictly speaking though, as a networker I rely on my fellow hams to provide whatever kind of content seems most useful to them. - My interest is to provide an infrastructure that their communications can move over. - Amateur Radio infrastructure, independent and capable in its own right.

From my end, it is important to have a certain load upon the network in order to exercise its components and show up weak points, failures, and places where more development is called for. It is important to do this every day, and that's what "content" means from my point of view. If it's legal, and it's there, that's good enough for me as a networker.

It is for this reason (among others) that I do not see HF multicast taking ALL of the bulletin load from the present HF network. The point-to-point network needs a small but regular bulletin load ( @ARRL, @AMSAT maybe ) to excersise the network when there are no personal, NTS or other targeted communications queued up for a particular location.

To boil down my answer to your question to a single word, that word would be, "Whatever...."

As an amateur, I look at it this way:

Packet nets in remote locations all have one big problem. - They can send and receive personal messages over the digital HF net just fine - but there's no way they can get all of those bulletins! They feel left out, and rightfully so.

My proposal fixes this old problem but more than that, it will encourage new packet networks in many strange, remote corners of the world that we cannot now anticipate. Having an amateur radio information service with truly global coverage that is free to all will put the internet in the position of not being able to compete with Ham Radio.

So there!

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A  
by K3AN on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
So now we'll have to put up with K1MAN on PSK as well?
 
RE: Plan A  
by N1EY on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
:Hello - and great article. It is a very good idea, to :use psk31 for the backbone of an HF packet network,
:and to utilize the strength of HF to transmit a single
:message to multiple receivers.

:However, transmiting a single message to multiple
:receivers is also known as *broadcasting*. This opens
:up the same (or similar) discussion as we read in
:answers to my article on Amateur Broadcasting (eHam,
:Dec 4).

I have made this comment to him before on USENET.
I had received many flames from him about how little
I know in regard to anything and many of his cohorts.
He actually was trying to propose people to give
equipment to police stations and other locations
for NONHAMS to read messages being distributed under
a VHF/UHF multicast system.

This guy is stuck in a 1985 world with low speed
networking and wants to transform it into low speed
broadcasting.

Bill
 
RE: Plan A  
by N1EY on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
:GREAT article and obvously a LOT of thought went into
:it but GEEEEEZ! How complicated can this hobby get???

The article's focus on PSK is not complicated at all.
He simply wants a system to send messages over PSK
streams from ONE LOCATION to many.

The question is how much bandwidth would be available
to transmit a message to the broadcaster. He wants
it send out multiple streams.
 
RE: Plan A  
by K4RAF on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Having an amateur radio information service with truly global coverage that is free to all will put the internet in the position of not being able to compete with Ham Radio."

You clearly have this is backwards. The inability to "compete" is through ham radio's obscurity & not through innovation.

HTML via 300-9600baud? A weather map of a summer storm will finish downloading when snow is falling!

1mbps on UHF? Exactly where?
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N3IQA says:

-- N3IQA -------------------
N5PV,
Hello - and great article. It is a very good idea, to use psk31 for the backbone of an HF packet network, and to utilize the strength of HF to transmit a single message to multiple receivers.

However, transmiting a single message to multiple receivers is also known as *broadcasting*. This opens up the same (or similar) discussion as we read in answers to my article on Amateur Broadcasting (eHam, Dec 4).

----------------------------

To be honest, I am not concerned about the regulatory end of the matter. Are we going to tell AMSAT to shut down those satellites? - I don't think so.

When I tested on HF with John Hansen's Radiomirror software, I did so only after "go ahead" replies about the experiment from both the ARRL and FCC. The person from the FCC was encouraging, and seemed to be interested in what I was doing.

As I mentioned in the article, testing Radiomirror on HF did not return encouraging results... But figuring out why it did not work out well eventually led me in the right direction.

It might be interesting to reference this article with yours, as there is a common interest there.

--N3IQA: -------------------------

Also, I see that you are interested to find a "programmer". What type? There are systems programmers and applications programmers. Systems programmers do things like load software and set it up, write drivers, and so on, while applications programmers use languages such as COBOL, one of the flavors of C (c++, c#, java) or one of the flavors of Basic (visual basic, etc) to make the computer do useful things. Which type do you need?

-----------------------------------

I am hoping that an applications programmer can do the job. John Hansen is not stingy with the Radiomirror code in "C", which has the data and file handling stuff fleshed out... I understand that PSK related dll's exist that may be useful... Or maybe not, for this application. I do not know.

An applications programmer could look at the task, look at what is available for PSK programming and let me know if a systems programmer needs to be brought on-board. He'd probably have a better idea than I would about who to talk to, in that case.

For my part, it has been years since I have written any code, but my previous experience may be helpful in blocking out what needs to be done, etc.

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A  
by DJ8GO on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Eloquent, technically sound, but based on questionable assumptions. So you want to create a world-wide HF net to broadcast contents – in English I assume, so that only a minority of world wide hams would attempt to read it. Seemed there was a bit of head scratching when the question was asked what contents, and monthly updated bulletins, I think, are probably better disseminated in QST. A backup for the Internet in times of disaster? Get real! The basic flaw is your assumption that ham radio is primarily about reliably getting a message from A to B. In my more than 40 years as a ham that rarely seemed to be the objective. Social chatter in rag chews, experimenting with new and old modes of transmission, playing around with new equipment – yes. But transmitting serious content is a small fraction of the hobby, and if it’s done it only happens in a local setting and not on a world-wide scale.
 
RE: Plan A  
by N4ZOU on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The ARRL already transmits or I should say Broadcasts digital bulletins in RTTY, FEC Amtor and ASCII. It's the same stuff you can get on the Internet on many sites. If you don't have Internet access and want to copy data from them the only mode to use is Amtor with its Forward error-correcting (FEC) scheme and you will still get hits. Netzero still has a free Internet service that allows 10 hours per month and there pay by the year unlimited service is cheap and no credit card is required. I found it better than AOL at less than half the cost. Getting back on subject, I do use the ARRL Amtor digital bulletin to set the timing for Hamcomm and AN-93 software for full ARQ mode Amtor and Pactor I modes using cheap terminal units or Hamcomm style modems. I don’t copy the bulletins for the information. There is a message header system that stops your recorder from printing a copy of a message you have automatically saved if you set the software up for that. As some posters have already noted this type of message system goes back to RTTY days and it would be hard to get most digital message system operators to go back to an antique traffic system.
 
Plan A  
by W2RS on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
What is "broadcasting?"

For our purposes as hams, Sec. 97.3(a)(10) of the FCC rules defines it as follows:

(10) Broadcasting. Transmissions intended for reception by the general public, either direct or relayed.

So, a transmission from one station intended to be received by many is not broadcasting, as long as it is not intended for the general public.

73, Ray
 
Plan A  
by K9WQ on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
It seems to me that what's being proposed is not really networking or multicasting but rather a much more limited idea -- PSK broadcasting.

If I'm understanding the proposal, it's not networking because it's one-way. There's too little bandwidth for each end-node to be able to put anything back onto the network.

It's not multicasting because multicasting assumes high bandwidth on the backbone, and those nodes with no interest in certain types of data just ignore it, though they heard it. That is, multicasting assumes that there is sufficient bandwidth to waste bandwidth on transmissions of limited interest.

So this is broadcasting. All transmitted data would have to be of general interest, and content would have to be determined by, and limited by, some central authority.

Global PSK broadcasting may well be useful at times of international emergency. But under normal conditions, such generalized "bulletin" data has value not much higher than noise, and other sources can carry it at much lower cost.

Unless I'm missing something, I'm afraid the point here is nothing new: that radio is good for broadcasting, but not very good for networking.
 
Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by HFHAM2 on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Yeah, like this is gonna happen :)

Meantime, I'll stick to See Dubya...
 
RE: Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by N5PVL on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I see we have some of the frustrated telecommunications and I.T. folks mentioned in the article here. Note the negative, sour attitude... That never should have happened to these hams.

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A  
by N1EY on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
:For our purposes as hams, Sec. 97.3(a)(10) of the FCC
:rules defines it as follows:
:(10) Broadcasting. Transmissions intended for
:reception by the general public, either direct or
:relayed.
:So, a transmission from one station intended to be
:received by many is not broadcasting, as long as it is
:not intended for the general public.

Charles had clearly outlined his intentions regarding
multicast transmissions are for the public in previous
comments to the public on USENET and elsewhere on
Eham. Google his callsign.

Bill
 
RE: Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by K9WQ on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles... I'm sure everyone appreciates your work in support of ham radio, but in my opinion Internet envy is not going to be productive for ham radio.

If you analyze those areas where packet remains successful, it's not hard to see why. APRS, for example. APRS sips local bandwidth while providing high-value data (when will daddy be home?) that can't otherwise be had. APRS is so useful, in fact, that I feel sure it will soon be put out of business by Internet-linked GPS locator systems that use the cell phone network.

It seems to me that creative thinking about packet radio could be much more productive in UHF, not HF. UHF is where the bandwidth is. HF is too scarce, too valuable, too low in bandwidth, and too fickle to provide any kind of backbone for a global network, even a broadcast backbone as you've described here.

Even here in the densely populated Bay Area, nothing is happening on the 70cm band except for a few repeaters. 6m, for that matter, is very lightly used. There is very little simplex traffic on 2m. Those are the bands that we need to use more creatively.
 
RE: Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by AB0WR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I simply cannot believe the number of people on here running this idea down. We, as a service, need to start thinking more out-of-the-box. Advancement of the art doesn't necessarily mean coming up with new integrated circuits or new modulation techniques or etc. It can also mean coming up with new ways to communicate.

I have proposed the following idea to a group of amateurs in my state working with the Adjutant General's office on ways for the amateur service to be of more use to the public at large.

Take the RadioMirror idea and apply it to means for getting Amber Alerts out to key locations. One of the problems we were told about was the time delay it takes for the government fax servers to get Amber Alerts out to lots of locations. Many locations along the interstate highway system (gas stations, etc) don't have fax machines or even internet access. Even if they did have faxes, getting faxes out to all of them takes a lot of phone calls and a lot of transmission time.

Imagine the amateur service putting in minimal packet stations in all these locations. HF packet could be used to send the Amber Alerts to localized VHF distribution points and in just a few minutes the Amber Alert could be available statewide. It wouldn't take very much ingenuity to even establish a polling routine from the centralized servers to insure that the packet station was still accessible. A built-in maintenance package - lots better than what would be available with fax.

Remember, you don't need a ham license to read the output of a packet station. It is my opinion that this is NOT broadcasting and even if by some chance it was ruled to be so, I would expect the FCC to be very receptive to allowing the amateur service to proceed with such a service.

Anyway, I plan on working with this idea. I've been working on getting ideas together for a minimal station and as time and money permit will be putting some demonstration stations together. We'll see how it all goes.

tim ab0wr
 
Plan A  
by K1ZF on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Reads like a IEEE paper...

Gene, K1ZF
 
RE: Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by N1EY on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
:Take the RadioMirror idea and apply it to means for
:getting Amber Alerts out to key locations. One of the
:problems we were told about was the time delay it
:takes for the government fax servers to get Amber
:Alerts out to lots of locations. Many locations along
:the interstate highway system (gas stations, etc)

This sounds like broadcasting. It is looking for
a void for ham radio to fill. Unfornately, if this
void really existed there would be better alternatives
to implement a solution through wired networks.

Fax machines are cheaper than a KAM TNC. Fax
machines do not require a computer. They do not
require an antenna. The cost of your system would
be much greater than simply buying a fax machine.
It would also be using ham radio for something that
it was not intended to acheive.

Ham radio's purpose is not serve day to day needs
of law enforcement. Go enjoy the radio and play.
The Amateur Radio Service is suppose to be a fun
hobby that encourages electronic skill and goodwill.

Bill N1EY


 
What are the requirements?  
by AA4PB on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Do we have a need to broadcast messages to multiple stations, world wide? It seems to me that the requirement for most emergency communications is point to point.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> If and when the Internet goes down, what's Plan
> C ?!?

Stone axes

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Systems programmers do things like load software and
> set it up, write drivers, and so on, while
> applications programmers use languages such as
> COBOL, one of the flavors of C (c++, c#, java) or
> one of the flavors of Basic (visual basic, etc) to
> make the computer do useful things. Which type do
> you need?

That has to be the worst description of the distinction between systems and application programmers I've ever read.

Not that it matters, as the term 'systems programmer' became obsolete about the time that MVS did.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> So, a transmission from one station intended to be
> received by many is not broadcasting, as long as it
> is not intended for the general public.

correct, but incomplete. In addition to broadcasting, 97.113-5(b) says "nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules;"

There are four exceptions in the rules. This proposal would require an amendment to add a a fifth.
 
RE: Plan B for me is CW ;-)  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I simply cannot believe the number of people on here
> running this idea down. We, as a service, need to
> start thinking more out-of-the-box.

Reinventing wide-area networking, poorly, hardly qualifies as out of the box thinking.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Programmer wanted

You would be better off starting by hiring some designers with a background in distributed systems design. Going rate for such people varies between $250 and $500 / hour, depending on their experience.
 
Plan A  
by WA1RNE on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Digital modes would be better utilized on UHF or microwave, not HF.

"Instead of dissing ourselves because we cannot "compete with the Internet", we must look for and develop the strong points to be found in working with radio. It is a wonderful challenge and opportunity for amateurs; a lot more fun and far more productive than to continue trying to fit our RF peg into the Wire hole."

Sounds like a bit of "window dressing" to add justification to your idea for an audience that I believe you know is not interested in expansion of digital modes on HF.

If you want a networking project via ham radio, why don't you devise a means to "multicast" via all the VHF or UHF repeaters or set up other stations to be used as full time nodes similar to packet? Many on these repeaters are under-utilized and their are hundreds of them, right? (at least they are in my area; 2 meters is dead compared to what it was 5-10 years ago)

Your network may be a cutting edge form of communication but we don't always require that. Can you imagine how stale amateur radio might become with one of these world-wide networks interconnecting Boston with Munich with little effort and skill?

Using HF to create your own Ultra-WiFi internet isn't going to fly and I don't think it should. I like a simple point to point communication system that can cover long distances.

It's UNIQUE, not antique and in itself is not always easy to do. That's why it's fun.

73, Chris






 
Plan A  
by KC7GNM on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well the one thing you failed to mention is that psk31 has such a small bandwidth because it is such a slower baud rate than packet. PSK31 is named as such because it is at 31 baud. That is why you can fit so many signals in the same space as a normal packet signal. The other problem is that PSK31 is not an error correcting mode. There would be no way to set up for error correction using this mode. If you did manage to get it to error correct it would not be PSK31, it would be a new mode all together. The problem with this system is it would take up much more time even multicasting than trying to send a packet message over hf. At least packet is error free tranmissions and even at 300 baud is 10 times faster than a psk31 signal which is prone to errors.

The biggest problem with the packet systems today is that folks just got tired of them or just quit it altogether. The other problem today is the pactor stations come up on just about any freq they want to and start blasting away, even on the established packet freqs on hf. I have been in a keyboard to keyboard chat on 14.105 many times only to have some stupid pactor station start blasting away without listening first. That is another problem you will have to deal with because if a pactor station decides to start blasting away on your multicast freq then no one will get the message and it will take forever just to get a couple of words out.

73 de Greg
KC7GNM
 
Plan A: A critique  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
To critique Plan A, one first needs to know what it is. There is much text in the author's original article, but the vast majority of it is justification, and very little of it actually describes the plan. A concise summary of "Plan A" is:

"Build an HF amateur network utilizing multiple PSK streams to implement a broadcast and repeat bulletin forwarding system, based on RadioMirror."

This, then, is "plan A." Note: The author uses the word 'multicast' in describing plan A. This is a very unusual use of the word, and I would prefer to stay closer to well established nomenclature. (The author of RadioMirror, John Hansen, WA0PTV, uses the more common term 'broadcast' as well.

There are three aspects to this approach, then:

1) substituting PSK for KISS in RadioMirror.

Critique: This is not a one-for-one substitution. PSK is a protocol designed for efficient transmission of data that is immediately presented to a human reader. It has no error detection or correction capability. Thus, it doesn't matter how many times the data is rebroadcast, the receiver would have no way to determine when it had possession of correct data.

2) The use of multiple concurrent PSK streams to achieve sufficent bandwidth. Two approaches are suggested:

a) using many streams concurrently to send the same information.

Critique: In data communications, this technique is known as channel bonding. It hs as been in use in the internet since the early 80s, and is well understood.
In this application, the use of offset resend is not optimal, because of the error burst characteristics of the media.

b) Send multiple data on concurrent streams.

Critique: This is a common technique of overlapping I/O requests on the internet. All web browsers use it, for example. There are both latency and capacity issues that can render such a scheme ineffective, especially in the presence of bursty noise and with a lack of feedback.

c) use store-and-forward rebroadcast.

Critique: The author specifies no mechanism for supression. How then does a site know which messages it should rebroadcast or not? How are loops avoided?

General observations:

The author has completely missed the one true opportunity for amateur innovation in HF digital protocols. Despite his assertions about what 'wired networking' professionals can or can not accomplish using RF, his recommendations are naive and antique when compared to systems currently in place, such as Skystream, used by the broadcast industry, or Disney's movie distribution prototype, developed in part by this reviewer while at Dotcast.

Rather than attempting to reinvent reliable distributed multicast protocols, which the author's project would eventually require, this reviewer recommends that the author contact networking professionals who have already developed and deployed such systems in other environments, and rely on their extensive experience, rather than going over old ground.

It the author truely wishes to innovate in HF digital, this reviewer recommends that he explore the problem described below; of which there is little present experience, and which remains, at this time, of interest to amateurs, only.

The hard problem in HF digital is developing a physical layer protocol that is robust and efficient given the error characteristics of HF. This protocol, which would then underly all HF digital, would solve the following problems:

It would be error-behavior adaptive. Solutions to errors in HF transmission can include, but are not limited to, increase power, decrease transmission rate, select alternative frequency, alter FEC and retry behavior. Unfortunately, amateurs are not allowed to use spread spectrum techniques on HF, or there would be an additional avenue to explore.

It would utilize adaptive burst/retry. Latency problems are addressed by data bursts, but there are well known problems, again related to error behavior, that require careful tuning, in real time, of the burst lengths.

It would utilize adaptive compression. For the same reasons as the above.

Once this was done, one could then build a protocol suite on top of it starting with unreliable datagram protocols, and eventually resulting in reliable multicast datagram protocols -- along with all of the command and control necessary for effective RMDP.

 
Plan A  
by K0RGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think Charles is on to something here. I do not see it as a replacement for NTS or the proposed email system for deployment in disasters, but I think it is something that hams could rapidly deploy that might provide a valuable service in a widespread disaster, such as a hurricane, that would not require the presence of a licensed amateur at the receiving point.

Multicasting is not the same as broadcasting. A multicast is directed to a group consisting of one or more receiving stations. Properly designed, you could have multiple groups monitoring a single transmitting station. Only the groups to whom the multicast is addressed would actually receive it.

So, as Hurricane Xavier bears down on Pensacola, as it inevitably will someday, ham servers in Texas, South Florida, and the midwest prepare to serve. At Red Cross shelters in the affected areas, communications receivers with appropriate computer hardware will be tuned to one of the designated servers. As expected, the hurricane strikes, and the Red Cross starts getting health and welfare inquiries for people in the area.

In Peoria, Mabel calls her Red Cross office, worried that she can't contact her Uncle Floyd in Pensacola. At the Peoria Red Cross, a worker takes the request, and posts an inquiry on the H&W database which is transmitted via multicast to all the shelters in the Pensacola area via ham "Radio Mirror". The database is resent periodically to ensure that it is up to date.

Now, I think that this can be used in conjunction with other solutions to close the loop - in fact, I think it dovetails pretty well with what the Red Cross actually has in its current communications plans. It doesn't matter if the response is sent via Telephone,Nextel, the Internet, PACTOR , or SCAMP. Different databases with different addressing schemes can be used to separate H&W traffic from others. Only a few transmitters are needed to serve a huge area of the country.

I think this deserves some study and consideration. If I had the soundcard programming skills I'd work on it myself.
 
Plan A  
by K0RGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think Charles is on to something here. I do not see it as a replacement for NTS or the proposed email system for deployment in disasters, but I think it is something that hams could rapidly deploy that might provide a valuable service in a widespread disaster, such as a hurricane, that would not require the presence of a licensed amateur at the receiving point.

Multicasting is not the same as broadcasting. A multicast is directed to a group consisting of one or more receiving stations. Properly designed, you could have multiple groups monitoring a single transmitting station. Only the groups to whom the multicast is addressed would actually receive it.

So, as Hurricane Xavier bears down on Pensacola, as it inevitably will someday, ham servers in Texas, South Florida, and the midwest prepare to serve. At Red Cross shelters in the affected areas, communications receivers with appropriate computer hardware will be tuned to one of the designated servers. As expected, the hurricane strikes, and the Red Cross starts getting health and welfare inquiries for people in the area.

In Peoria, Mabel calls her Red Cross office, worried that she can't contact her Uncle Floyd in Pensacola. At the Peoria Red Cross, a worker takes the request, and posts an inquiry on the H&W database which is transmitted via multicast to all the shelters in the Pensacola area via ham "Radio Mirror". The database is resent periodically to ensure that it is up to date.

Now, I think that this can be used in conjunction with other solutions to close the loop - in fact, I think it dovetails pretty well with what the Red Cross actually has in its current communications plans. It doesn't matter if the response is sent via Telephone,Nextel, the Internet, PACTOR , or SCAMP. Different databases with different addressing schemes can be used to separate H&W traffic from others. Only a few transmitters are needed to serve a huge area of the country.

I think this deserves some study and consideration. If I had the soundcard programming skills I'd work on it myself.
 
Plan A  
by K0RGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think Charles is on to something here. I do not see it as a replacement for NTS or the proposed email system for deployment in disasters, but I think it is something that hams could rapidly deploy that might provide a valuable service in a widespread disaster, such as a hurricane, that would not require the presence of a licensed amateur at the receiving point.

Multicasting is not the same as broadcasting. A multicast is directed to a group consisting of one or more receiving stations. Properly designed, you could have multiple groups monitoring a single transmitting station. Only the groups to whom the multicast is addressed would actually receive it.

So, as Hurricane Xavier bears down on Pensacola, as it inevitably will someday, ham servers in Texas, South Florida, and the midwest prepare to serve. At Red Cross shelters in the affected areas, communications receivers with appropriate computer hardware will be tuned to one of the designated servers. As expected, the hurricane strikes, and the Red Cross starts getting health and welfare inquiries for people in the area.

In Peoria, Mabel calls her Red Cross office, worried that she can't contact her Uncle Floyd in Pensacola. At the Peoria Red Cross, a worker takes the request, and posts an inquiry on the H&W database which is transmitted via multicast to all the shelters in the Pensacola area via ham "Radio Mirror". The database is resent periodically to ensure that it is up to date.

Now, I think that this can be used in conjunction with other solutions to close the loop - in fact, I think it dovetails pretty well with what the Red Cross actually has in its current communications plans. It doesn't matter if the response is sent via Telephone,Nextel, the Internet, PACTOR , or SCAMP. Different databases with different addressing schemes can be used to separate H&W traffic from others. Only a few transmitters are needed to serve a huge area of the country.

I think this deserves some study and consideration. If I had the soundcard programming skills I'd work on it myself.
 
Plan A  
by K0RGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think Charles is on to something here. I do not see it as a replacement for NTS or the proposed email system for deployment in disasters, but I think it is something that hams could rapidly deploy that might provide a valuable service in a widespread disaster, such as a hurricane, that would not require the presence of a licensed amateur at the receiving point.

Multicasting is not the same as broadcasting. A multicast is directed to a group consisting of one or more receiving stations. Properly designed, you could have multiple groups monitoring a single transmitting station. Only the groups to whom the multicast is addressed would actually receive it.

So, as Hurricane Xavier bears down on Pensacola, as it inevitably will someday, ham servers in Texas, South Florida, and the midwest prepare to serve. At Red Cross shelters in the affected areas, communications receivers with appropriate computer hardware will be tuned to one of the designated servers. As expected, the hurricane strikes, and the Red Cross starts getting health and welfare inquiries for people in the area.

In Peoria, Mabel calls her Red Cross office, worried that she can't contact her Uncle Floyd in Pensacola. At the Peoria Red Cross, a worker takes the request, and posts an inquiry on the H&W database which is transmitted via multicast to all the shelters in the Pensacola area via ham "Radio Mirror". The database is resent periodically to ensure that it is up to date.

Now, I think that this can be used in conjunction with other solutions to close the loop - in fact, I think it dovetails pretty well with what the Red Cross actually has in its current communications plans. It doesn't matter if the response is sent via Telephone,Nextel, the Internet, PACTOR , or SCAMP. Different databases with different addressing schemes can be used to separate H&W traffic from others. Only a few transmitters are needed to serve a huge area of the country.

I think this deserves some study and consideration. If I had the soundcard programming skills I'd work on it myself.
 
Plan A  
by K0RGR on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Sorry for the multiple posts - it hiccuped I think...
 
SCAMP  
by KZ1X on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I hope KN6KB puts up a website soon, so I don't have to spend the $20 to get the TAPR conference proceedings that describe the SCAMP project.

I also dislike it when I agree with Marty. Sometimes, despite not knowing what he doesn't know, he is actually on track.
 
RE: plan a -- a rant  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charlie,

not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're going to bad mouth professionals, don't write in the same article so much material that betrays your ignorance of the topic.

NWS EMWIN and RadioMirror are both broadcast products, not multicast. Your proposal doesn't have anything to do with multicast. Networks aren't all wired and even the wired ones aren't all point-to-point.

Shannon information theory applies to HF. If you want to get X bandwidth you can either use 1 channel X wide, or N channels X/N wide, but in the end you're still using X.

Network designers have faced, and solved, with very little problem all of the issues involved in HF digital networking. The military uses HF digital networks on a regular basis. Your problem of how to efficently distribute bulk traffic is an easy one.

There's nothing innovative about your solutions. They're actually very naive compared to what is really required to solve the problem.
 
RE: SCAMP  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I hope KN6KB puts up a website soon, so I don't have
> to spend the $20 to get the TAPR conference
> proceedings that describe the SCAMP project.

I wouldn't worry about it. Yet another MIME/SMTP replacement is attacking the wrong problem. Amateur radio protocol issues need to be resolved at a lower layer. RDFT looks more interesting, although it's got layer seperation problems.

> I also dislike it when I agree with Marty.

Hey, even you have to be right sometimes -- random chance is in your favor.

> Sometimes, despite not knowing what he doesn't know,
> he is actually on track.

Well, one of us has to be.

Feel free to teach me what I don't know. Especially on this subject, since I've only been learning it for thirty years, and I'm always open to new material.

Or do you just enjoy making asinine comments?



 
Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
First let me say that I applaud you on both your perspective, and your fine article! I too would like to see more and better usage made of digital techniques on our HF as well as lower VHF, and our SHF spectrum. I in fact have a personal ax to grind on this issue but, more on that later.

I’m not sure that our best interests would be served by promoting, testing, or developing your suggested model for “Emergency Communication”. I may be wrong on this point but, my thinking is as a percentage ratio, relatively few Ham’s devote themselves to emergency communications work. They WILL devote themselves to communication that is FUN, and where they feel as if they have really contributed something!

So, whats fun? Hams love to build things! This might be antennas, power amplifiers, or other radio equipment. It might even be BUILDING data network systems! They also have fun sharing ideas on better understanding of any of the above mentioned topics. These topics could be reduced to ‘files’ or BBS’s if you like.


I very much agree with your statement about “using ALL that we have HF, VHF, AND HIGHER FREQUENCIES”

Back to your system idea though for one minute, one technical solution to your problem -- a different PA stage. Even an old half flat 4-400A running Class C and clamped could put out a signal that is 8 to 11 dB’s stronger than your 15 Watt transmitter, and it would do it all day and all night at 100% duty cycle. Such an amplifier could be built with old TV parts. You would not even need a chimney type socket for the tube.

Two such transmitting stations on 30 Meters, one near Crescent Junction Utah, and one near Cincinatti should blanket the U.S. and more. These would feed two phased dipoles, one at about 25 foot height, and the one above it would be at 75 feet. They would be installed perpendicular to an east/west axis.

For your purposes , you would require a good and fast reliable link between these two stations. These would be 'Backbone' dedicated links, one on 30 Meters (obviously on a removed and non-published frequency), and two others, one on 20 Meters, and one on 6 Meters, at 9600 baud, with appropriate beam antennas pointed from one station to the other. This link between the two ‘Multicast Stations’ should provide all of the redundency required.


The thing that I really wonder about, and almost feel guilty by suggesting a means to PERHAPS provide greater digital troughput with less RF spectrum is, will such low baud rates really be adequate to provide all of the communications quality desired? At such low baud rates, we can’t provide picture data, and a picture is worth a thousand words. So, for every photo that would convey the desired communication, do authors need to become word-smiths that can send better descriptive text at slower baud rates? I think not!

We have many thousands of MegaHertz that most Ham’s do not use. If about 300 Ham’s across the country dedicated themselves to building a high speed SHF data network amongst themselves -- you would see what I mean. Three hundred such Ham’s could span our country on SHF with multi-fold redundancy. They could send data to each other from one end of the country to the other at "T1" like speeds. Is that not a network worth building also?

Good thoughts though! I liked your article very much, and while I have seen a few other nice technical articles posted here, yours is amongst the best!

73! de John WA6BFH
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
if a picture is worth 1000 words, but requires 10,000 words worth of bandwidth to transmit, doesn't that mean that it's 10 times less efficient than text?
 
RE: Plan A  
by K4JF on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
So if you combine PSK31, which is efficient, fairly new and fun, with Packet, which is boooooooooooring... what do you get?
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You get TWO relatively slow speed modes, that won't do what a little hardware (analog system) planning can fix!
 
Plan A  
by D0NUT on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Almost 300,000,000 Americans.

Maybe 400,000 ? amateurs.

Of which maybe 200,000 actually are on the air.
(ARRL membership at 163,000)

About half of one tenth of Americans are active amateurs? Thats 00.05 per cent

Compared to 68% of population that use the internet. Hi-speed wireless internet will be everywhere soon.

IMHO - we need to do everything to preserve our HF frequencies.

Just the facts, maam. 73
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Who in the world wants our HF frequencies? They want our SHF frequencies though, and have been grabbing them for decades!
 
RE: Plan A  
by KB3FYD on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Interesting idea, but I see one big problem - psk31 does no data checking/error correcting. Without syn/ack the network could never be used for anything but very simple text messages, and even then errors would be common.

I think the real solution is for hams to develop a system similar to the 811.x protocol on UHF. This would require some rules changes, and a re-investment in and engineering of new packet modems, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Scott
 
RE: Plan A  
by LA1SJA on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hello Charles.
Thanks for a technically interesting article.
I will still go for Plan B, the Internet.
The sad truth is that there is really not much more to be developed in HF radio.
Playing with it to learn is another matter.
HF networking may be the "last frontier of learning" after the VHF packet networks decline.
The redundancy of commercial IP / Internet-type networking will improve over time to make every Ham data network look ridiculous, no matter how advanced the solution may be.
The radio hobby may just still remain interesting for another decade though.
Have fun.
Svein.
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH asks:

"The thing that I really wonder about, and almost feel guilty by suggesting a means to PERHAPS provide greater digital troughput with less RF spectrum is, will such low baud rates really be adequate to provide all of the communications quality desired?"

There are several classes and types of data, some of which require high speed, and some that do not. Of the content I have suggested for multicast HF, none of it involves images, or the need for "high-speed". Other digital systems are in place to handle that kind of job.

HF multicast is not intended to replace existing digital systems but to operate along side of them instead, to the benefit of all. There is no need for HF multicast to try to "do it all", as other systems do a better job at certain tasks and it would be counterproductive and silly not to use them where they "shine".

Remember that even at a significantly lower baud rate, multicast is faster than point-to-point networks for wide-area distribution of data by several orders of magnitude. - Just as the existing point-to-point system is much better than multicast for delivering targeted communications - at any baudrate.

You can boost multicast's speed as I mentioned, by dividing the output over multiple streams... Q15x25 mode for example uses fifteen 88.3 baud PSK streams for an effective 2500 baud. This is more speed than I would shoot for with HF multicast, but it illustrates the principle.

With multicast, the speed gained through the network's distribution structure is much more significant than what you can get by upping the baudrate. Most of the lessons we have learned over the years about point-to-point networking are not really relevant to multicast, which approaches the task from a completely different angle.

You could easily end up losing throughput by upping the baudrate. Remember that this is a connectionless protocol like APRS... The server sends out the data and it is either received or it isn't. If a higher baud rate makes it more difficult to receive the signal, then your good-copy "footprint" on the map shrinks, you serve less receiving stations - and your efficiency takes a nosedive. Solid, clear copy over the widest area possible is what you shoot for with multicast. It is much more significant that baud rate in this application, and this is why I am looking at PSK streams.

Many of us are familiar with the effects of congestion upon a packet radio frequency, with VHF/UHF packet for example - or any other of the point-to-point systems we use... You CAN have several QSO's on the same frequency - but it sure does slow things down! The more participants you have on freq, the slower and more inefficient the whole thing becomes.

With multicast, the more (client) participants you have on freq - the more efficient the network becomes!

Much of the logic and many of the hard-won lessons of point-to-point networking are turned on their heads, and others simply do not apply with multicast. - It takes a little getting used to.

Charles, N5PVL







 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KB3FYD says:

"Interesting idea, but I see one big problem - psk31 does no data checking/error correcting. "

You didn't read or understand the article. Give it another scan.

Charles, N5PVL



 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH says:

-- WA6BFH -------------------
"Back to your system idea though for one minute, one technical solution to your problem -- a different PA stage. Even an old half flat 4-400A running Class C and clamped could put out a signal that is 8 to 11 dB’s stronger than your 15 Watt transmitter, and it would do it all day and all night at 100% duty cycle. Such an amplifier could be built with old TV parts. You would not even need a chimney type socket for the tube.

Two such transmitting stations on 30 Meters, one near Crescent Junction Utah, and one near Cincinatti should blanket the U.S. and more. These would feed two phased dipoles, one at about 25 foot height, and the one above it would be at 75 feet. They would be installed perpendicular to an east/west axis.
--------------------------------

That sounds pretty good! I'd like to hear more from knowlegable hams about hardware issues related to the transmitter and antennas for a multicast network server.

A lot of readers here understandably think I am really full of farina when I suggest coverage "from pole to pole and out to near-earth orbit"... Global coverage was one of the original goals for the digital ham network that we had to give up due to the limitations of point-to-point networking.

Many were dissapointed and embittered by that, which is no fun. One result of that is that if you mention "global coverage" today, a lot of hams immediately figure that you must be full of farina.

HF multicast does not suffer from the same set of limitations though and because of this, global coverage is once again on the table. With a reasonable number of servers, we can literally cover the entire planet. - Providing our service, such as it is to a myriad of places around the world where the internet is simply not available.

Personally, I think it would do us as hams a world of good to provide any kind of service, at any level that the internet cannot. Many hams are still overwhelmed by the internet, so that they have lost respect for ham radio. One sure cure for that is to use ham radio to do something the internet junkies WISH they could accomplish - but cannot.

There will be some political/PR benefit too, in establishing a viable global presence with the amateur radio digital net.

- I think we oughta do it! ( Big surprise eh? )

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

I said something earlier that is misleading:

"You could easily end up losing throughput by upping the baudrate. Remember that this is a connectionless protocol like APRS... The server sends out the data and it is either received or it isn't. If a higher baud rate makes it more difficult to receive the signal, then your good-copy "footprint" on the map shrinks, you serve less receiving stations - and your efficiency takes a nosedive. Solid, clear copy over the widest area possible is what you shoot for with multicast. It is much more significant that baud rate in this application, and this is why I am looking at PSK streams."

To clarify:

In the paragraph above, I was specifically discussing networked HF multicast servers.

BUT there will be other types and classes of multicast applications where baudrate will be more important, and where the coverage area might be deliberately limited or given gain in some particular direction.

Here I am just talking about networked HF multicast, one of several subjects covered in my article "Plan A".

I'd like to remind everybody that the main point of the article is an attitude adjustment. I attempt to pick up digital ham radio, dust off its britches and point it back on its way.

As has been suggested here, that way was lost over fifteen years ago... I figure that enough is enough, it's time to get back to enjoying the hobby and getting something accomplished again.

Some may object to that - and they can eat my shorts. I'm a ham, and I'm all for ham radio.

Charles, N5PVL

 
RE: Plan A  
by K4RAF on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"none of it involves images, or the need for "high-speed". Other digital systems are in place to handle that kind of job..."

So honestly, why is this being touted by the author as a "backup plan" for the net or some sort of innovation? You are clearly ignoring the needs of a robust improvement in our digital capability. Ignoring the need for speed is just unrealistic. 9600 baud packet was off pace in 1990!

If "other digital systems" are handling this job (I fail to see this anywhere), why not use 3.5GHz or some other band that is unused by the ham community to bolster our capabilities? HF/VHF/UHF data is very slow & undeployable in this eternal "emergency fantasy" some still cling to.

As far as Amber Alerts, they can be sent to pagers & cellphones of which there are over 100 million in the field, not to mention PORTABLE net devices such as PDAs. Using an amateur system to disseminate them means sitting in front of your fixed HF radio in the house & means you're not in the field where you can actually search for what you are supposed to be looking for. How passive can you get?

This proposal is nothing new & actually further illustrates how out of touch "development" has become from our community.

What we really need is a portable SMS system or text paging on 902-928MHz.

You struck out here "protocol warrior" as I don't see anything close to that here.



 
Plan A  
by W2RS on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AE6IP,

There are actually more than four exceptions to the prohibition on one-way transmissions that you cite. Sec. 97.111(b) provides as follows:

(b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur
station may transmit the following types of one-way communications:
(1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station;
(2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with
other stations;
(3) Telecommand;
(4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications;
(5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving proficiency
in, the international Morse code;
(6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins;
(7) Transmissions of telemetry.

I'll leave it to you, Charles and others to figure out whether any of these applies to his proposal. The AMSAT protocol cited by Charles in his original article does not rely on this section. Rather, it relies on one of those "additional" exceptions, provided for in Sec. 97.207(e):

(e) A space station may transmit one-way communications.

73, Ray
 
Plan A  
by KB6OMN on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I lost interest in amateur radio some eight years ago and am now getting back in to it. I am surprised to see how advances in related technologies (both consumer and commercial) have not been picked up by the amateur community.

Businesses and public service agencies are installing gigahertz backbone systems between sites to bolster communications. I think we should learn from them. It would be great if they were actually learning from us, but that kind of innovation just doesn't seem to be happening.

Some great thinking went in to this article, but this sounds to me like a nonstarter. As bandwidth has become cheaper for both businesses and public service entities, applications they use have become much more conversational and externally data driven...thus needing higher badwidth to function. A low bandwidth solution such as this basically provides for text messages between people.

I would think a gigahertz-level local/regional high bandwidth solution would be more useful and used more often than a national-level low bandwidth solution.
 
Plan A  
by N2RXK on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles...

Great idea and uses pretty much current available technology, without individual hams having to put out more bucks for a new idea. Some of the comments supporting giga this and SHF freqs are good except the costs and ranges would be contrary to what you propose, especially range.

PLAN A would give fairly reliable text-based dessimination of important information. I believe that is goal of what you are proposing.

Some of the planned changes to your ideas in this forum (labelled B through ZZZ hi hi)are suggesting that the system should be intended to sent pictures and weather maps and be a total replacement for the internet. Obviously, at the planned baud rates, this is NOT the proposed function.

Again...great idea and one that is feasible with current technology and equipment availablility.

OHHH!!!! Thank you for not challenging the nay-sayers who are talking but not listening. All great systems start with ideas that may have to be adapted, discarded or accepted as is. Nay-sayers find ways to make SURE things NOT work!!!

Good luck on getting this concept to run...and the happiest of holidays!

Bob N2RXK
 
RE: Plan A  
by N2RXK on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Just another thought after re-reading the posts..

Rather than attacking the problem...let's all attack EACH OTHER and make comments about their posts!! It's a lot more fun and we can tell each other how smart we are and how stupid they are. This clever form of posting will INSURE that the problem is solved and everyone will feel so much better!!

Let me carefully explain...the above paragraph is humor, meant to be funny...please don't do this though I know some of the readers and posters to this site ACTUALLY PRACTICE this idea.

Have a good one!!! or two!!!

Bob N2RXK
 
Plan A  
by G0GQK on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Who, or what is going to bump off the internet ?
Is this another "the world is going to end on the 30th August 2020, and what is going to happen to Ham radio after that ?" Bout time some of youse folks over the pond relaxed a bit.
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N2RXK Bob, The transceiver and modem system that I suggested, in contrast to the system of N5PVL could be built for a few hundred Dollars per station.

A few hundred (I suggested 300) dedicated Ham's could cover the country on Microwave frequencies. These would be dedicated nodes, passing information at T1 like speeds, for .JPG's or text, or any other format. In other words, the same kind of stuff that we now do on the Internet, and no modification would be required for any present ruling of Part 97.

Sorry Charles, I'm not denegrating your idea, and 30 Meters is I think the place for what you want to do (although using 6 Meters as a 'backup' would also provide some interesting propagation signal data between the two stations that I suggested {during solar flares and at other times too}. I don't think Part 97 would get in your way either. I'm sure the FCC would grant an "STA", as long as the traffic was non-commercial, with no money changing hands.

73! de John
 
RE: Plan A  
by KG5JJ on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Ride the light! ;-}

73 KG5JJ (Mike)
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Remember that even at a significantly lower baud
> rate, multicast is faster than point-to-point
> networks for wide-area distribution of data by
> several orders of magnitude.

Charlie, do yourself a favor, and learn what multicasting *is* before you make such remarks.

If the size of a multicast group is N, then multicast is faster than point-to-point by a factor of at most N. This, of course, ignores

a) the additional overhead introduced for the multicast bookkeeping

and

b) any efficiency wins resulting from being able to use an embedded tree in the 'point-to-point' scenario.

For multicast to be several orders of magnitudes faster than point-to-point, then, the multicast group would have to be O(1,000) in size, at a minimum, and O(10,000) in size under realistic circumstances.

> - Just as the existing point-to-point system is much
> better than multicast for delivering targeted
> communications - at any baudrate.

Multicast *is* targeted communication. You really should learn the difference between brooadcast and mutlicast, Charlie.

Perhaps you sould start by looking the original BSD mbone system. It's one of the oldest, and therefore one of the simplest multicast systems.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> With multicast, the more (client) participants you
> have on freq - the more efficient the network
> becomes!

Nope. The efficiency curve is asympototic. At some point you saturate the network and performance degrades.

> Much of the logic and many of the hard-won lessons
> of point-to-point networking are turned on their
> heads, and others simply do not apply with
> multicast. - It takes a little getting used to.

Nope. Multicast originated as an attempt to provide efficient mechanisms for supporting broadcast-like behavior in point-to-point networks, as the ethernet was replaced by point-to-point lan technologies. The lessons of multicast are very much rooted in point-to-point networking; especially those of server congestion and nack storms.

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> KB3FYD says:

> "Interesting idea, but I see one big problem - psk31
> does no data checking/error correcting. "

> You didn't read or understand the article. Give it
> another scan.

> Charles, N5PVL

Another scan of the article won't help KB3FYD out, Charlie. You've missed a rather important point. No matter how many times you resend the original message, there's no way for the receiver to know if it was received correctly, unless you provide error detection capability.

PSK31 doesn't do that, Charlie. So your replacement won't work. If you're going to impose your scheme on top of PSK31, then you're going to have to add error detection above PSK31.

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Personally, I think it would do us as hams a world
> of good to provide any kind of service, at any level
> that the internet cannot.

The internet and ham radio are aimed at different targets, Charlie. Ham radio can't provide the sort of services that the internet does. We lack the resources.

Which is fine, since we do so many other things that the internet isn't intended to do.

> Many hams are still overwhelmed by the internet, so
> that they have lost respect for ham radio. One sure > cure for that is to use ham radio to do something
> the internet junkies WISH they could accomplish -
> but cannot.

And you think that 2500 baud broadcast over HF near the bottom of the sunspot cycle is going to provide that?

I'll have to IRC that to my buddies at McMurdo and see what they think of your idea.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I'd like to remind everybody that the main point of
> the article is an attitude adjustment. I attempt to
> pick up digital ham radio, dust off its britches and
> point it back on its way.

That might have been your intent. What you accomplished was to denegrate the very people who could help you do that while at the same time demonstrating a shocking lack of understanding of networking.


 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
W2RS Ray,

Thanks for reminding me of the other allowed one way communications.

Marty, AE6IP
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> OHHH!!!! Thank you for not challenging the nay-
> sayers who are talking but not listening. All great
> systems start with ideas that may have to be
> adapted, discarded or accepted as is. Nay-sayers
> find ways to make SURE things NOT work!!!

That's a fine sentiment, but it misses the point of reality checks. First, while positive ideas are occassionaly nay-sayed, (such as the famous pooh-poohing of Goddard,) the vast majority of opposed ideas are opposed on very solid grounds. The fine sentimment in your post is more often used by crackpots to comfort themselves than it is applied to good ideas wrongly pooh-poohed.

Second, some ideas and approaches are so bad that the only way to get from them to a good approach is to discard them. Charlie's enthusiasm is admirable. His understanding of the problem domain is lacking. I for one would prefer to see his energy directed to an aspect of amateur HF digital commmunication that amateurs have a chance of contributing to. This is why I not only carefully stated my criticism of his suggestions, I also recommended an area that would be more useful to explore.

As far as remarks of a personal nature, Charlie, in his condescending attitude towards professionals, invites attack. Coupled with his own clearly demonstrated ignorance of the subject matter, and his unwillingness to entertain constructive criticism when offered, this makes him a most inviting target.

Finally, the idea that criticism is bad is anathma to science and engineering. Peer review is a critical part of the scientific endeavor. Charlie wrote a post in which he invited criticism and comment, on a forum well known for such.

So, let me reitterate my constructive remarks, although I know they are in vain.

1) Rather than compete with the internet by attempting to revive packet radio, Charlie's effort would be better spent in addressing problems unique to amateur digital communication. The problem right now most suitable for exploration is protocol design.

2) Charlie is in need of further education before he attemmpts to tackle these problems. I suggest he investigate

a) What multicast is, and how it differs from broadcast
b) The range of network topologies in use today
c) Skystream or a similar existing multicast distribution system.
d) Enough Shannon information theory to understand channel capacity tradeoffs
e) error detection and correction
f) existing HF digital networks

Charlie doesn't really have a 'plan A' yet, unless you accept that Kennedy's "We will put a man on the moon in 10 years" was a plan. He will never have a viable 'plan A' until he understands the items described above well enough to incorporate them.

He has two choices, really. He can continue to pretend that the professionals have never been down the path he wants to go down, or he can learn from the pros. In the first, he will, after much trial and error, if he has great luck, arrive at some distant time in the future, where the pros were five years ago. In the second, he will emulate Newton, standing on the shoulders of giants to see farther.

I certainly wouldn't dissuade Charlie from the first course. Sometimes, ignoring what is already known can lead to a valuable personal journey of discovery.

But if Charlie wishes to satisfy his goal of amateur innovation in distributed systems, rather than simply make a personal exploration of data communications, I would strongly suggest that he become educated in the field first.
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

--N2RXK-------------------

Great idea and uses pretty much current available technology, without individual hams having to put out more bucks for a new idea. Some of the comments supporting giga this and SHF freqs are good except the costs and ranges would be contrary to what you propose, especially range.

PLAN A would give fairly reliable text-based dessimination of important information. I believe that is goal of what you are proposing.

-N5PVL---------------------

I am guessing that most of the content will be text-based, but the system is capable of transferring executables, images and so on.

I've used Radiomirror (multicast) to do this on VHF and Q15x25 mode (PSK-based with excellent error-correction) on HF.

Multicast works as a file server... Hams decide what kind of files they want to send - and send them.

I support what the SHF and HSMM guys are up to, and do not see any area of conflict here... Surely they do not have plans to run WIFI over HF, or something like that? Even if they did, HF multicast's use will tend to free up spectrum for other uses. - It's hard to see where the area of conflict is, or what an HF multicast system is going to prevent them from doing.

--N2RXK-------------------

Some of the planned changes to your ideas in this forum (labelled B through ZZZ hi hi)are suggesting that the system should be intended to sent pictures and weather maps and be a total replacement for the internet. Obviously, at the planned baud rates, this is NOT the proposed function.

-N5PVL---------------------

No, of course HF multicast could not replace even a single part of the internet. - This is because the internet does not have anything with HF multicast's capability to start with. If they don't have it, we can't replace it for them.

The internet and HF multicast are entirely different systems, each with its own special capabilities.

--N2RXK-------------------

Again...great idea and one that is feasible with current technology and equipment availablility.

OHHH!!!! Thank you for not challenging the nay-sayers who are talking but not listening. All great systems start with ideas that may have to be adapted, discarded or accepted as is. Nay-sayers find ways to make SURE things NOT work!!!

-N5PVL---------------------

I've been reading articles and forums here at eHam a long time, and already know whose posts to scroll past, here.

These days I seldom bother answering negative, anti-ham, "protocol warrior" and other troll-like posts. I just ignore them and it is easy to do, as there are always decent and intelligent hams out there, too.

The callsign identification system on the replies is great.

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A  
by N2RXK on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charlie...

I like your style....thanks for your responses...made me re-read the original post and I had missed some of your points. Hopefully I'll get as tolerant as you about the know-it-alls!!

Thanks...
Bob N2RXK
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Oh, in an earlier post I should have said, with FULL DUPLEX at "T1" like speeds.
 
Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by W7NWH on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wow! Someone with a unique idea, a concept of creating more value to our service. I don't assume to understand the problems or pitfalls with multiple PSK streams running parallel data, but again.. the thought sounds possible, works for my RAID arrays at work!

QRM, QRN, QSB... I thought these we're real problems for digital before I heard the AOR product first hand, then saw the JPEGS I could send over HF! Then I started seeing the potential to squeeze more data over HF connections... once that thing handshakes and locks on it does not like to let go...

Digital is HOT, PSK 31 is hot and is the best thing to come down the pike as a promotional tool for our hobby for a long time..

Why? Because KIDS DIG IT! And if kids like it maybe they'll take a moment and paruse what our great hobby has to offer. The more we talk it up, invent, create and remember our roots the more likely our hobby will survive the onslaught of spectrum grabbers.

Just my take on it... we need innovation, this person, even if the data rates or throughput seems off, is really not the point, we're not looking for fiber speeds here, or even 128K.. improving data rates over HF should have an annual contest for God's sake! This is important stuff now.. and while I'm on my rant.. why aren't we getting involved more with WIFI and other distance data backhaul technologies??? Beat the BPL and go wireless!

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well, I for one would love to help him build such a working system. I suggested a design that I know would cover the country as he has outlined for the mode he prefers.

I have a different model where I would also like to hear from others sharing my interests or ideas.

These two systems, as Charles has said, are not disperate. The two nodes that I suggested for his system,,,, could also be "Hubs" for mine!
 
Another fine article.....  
by KA4KOE on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Nitpicked to death by the naysayers. I would love to see some of the "experts" write an article and pass on some of their wisdom to us groundlings so we can benefit. It seems like some of the most vociferous voices could well do to put themselves in the limelight and see how it feels like.

No one has the market cornered on ham knowledge in this forum. Period. No one likes to be belittled and be told they "need" to educate themselves.

To paraphrase Major Edwin Howard Armstrong, "Its the things that people know that ain't so"......

Read "Man of High Fidelity", a biography of Armstrong......still available free on the Internet if you do a decent google search. Got mine. Read it. Enjoyed it.

You guys enjoy these forums and articles? Let me tell you one thing......its going to reach a point where Clinton AD7RG will have a hard time getting any decent articles posted because the authors just won't want to put up the BS and assinine comments.

My 2.9234234 cents worth. Sermon over.

PHILIP
 
RE: Plan A  
by K4JF on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
<He has two choices, really. He can continue to pretend that the professionals have never been down the path he wants to go down, or he can learn from the pros. In the first, he will, after much trial and error, if he has great luck, arrive at some distant time in the future, where the pros were five years ago. In the second, he will emulate Newton, standing on the shoulders of giants to see farther. >

Interesting comment, but remember: if the Professionals had their way, you wouldn't be using this forum at all. Personal Computers, especially in the home, were stoutly opposed by the professionals. I remember having to buy "programmable calculators" at work because the professionals would not let PCs into the corporate environment. And it took a lot of hams cobbling stuff together to get computers into the home. So quite often the amateurs are way ahead of the professionals, and computers is one field where that IS the historical norm.

Remember, "professional" means you are paid to do it, "amateur" means you are not. That is the only difference - it has NOTHING to do with competence or skill.

I say give it a try. How can I help?
 
Plan A  
by KI4HTE on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I certainly agree that the issue is one we need to be thinking about. I don't necessarily agree that N5PVL's years-long rumination has led him in "the right direction".

Here are my concerns.

1. Like others, I think the proposal crosses the line into broadcast. N5PVL says, "I am not concerned about the regulatory end of the matter." Well, as a ham, he ought to be. So ought we all.

2. Even if the regulatory end (wrt broadcasting) gets taken care of, I don't believe such a service can achieve its maximum benefit in a broadcast mode. Information needs in flow in both directions.

3. "Plan A" is unnecessarily mode-specific. It's true (or might be true - I'll have to take N5PVL's word for it) that PSK31 (e.g. Q15x25) offers the highest throughput for the bandwidth; but users should retain the freedom they now have to use the bandwidth as they see most appropriate. In particular, a "multicast" phone service would be interesting, imho.

I propose the following alternatives to the details of Plan A.

1. Let the service be mode-neutral. Digital, cw, and phone all have their place, in this as in any other service.

2. The data networking model should allow communication to and from all points. Of course, not everyone has a HF transmitter; and under this scheme, they won't need one. They use existing local/regional (VHF/UHF) schemes to send data to a local/regional HF "server" site, which then repeats (essentially) the data to the HF receivers world wide. Folks with HF receivers (which isn't necessarily everyone, in this scheme) can receive the data directly; otherwise, they can use local/regional means to receive the data. What's really necessitated by this arrangement is: 1) well-defined frequencies for all participating links, in each band; and 2) an addressing and routing protocol, to ensure that traffic is properly re-transmitted upstream, downstream, or locally. (1) is trivial; and the Internet folks can provide expertise on (2).

Personally I think we should think about the need more broadly than just "serving files". To my mind, it's much more like a traffic system, but unlike the NTS, eliminates the human operators wherever possible.

Thanks, 73,
KI4HTE John Porter, Falls Church, VA
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> No, of course HF multicast could not replace even a
> single part of the internet. - This is because the
> internet does not have anything with HF multicast's
> capability to start with. If they don't have it, we
> can't replace it for them.

It's not multicast, Charlie, it's broadcast, and we've been able to do it on the internet, with a lot more reliability than HF probagation, since the early 80s. Off the internet, geosync multicast has been in use in commercial distribution systems like skystream to deliver very high volumes of data since the start of satelitte distribution of television .

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> These days I seldom bother answering negative, anti-
> ham, "protocol warrior" and other troll-like posts.
> I just ignore them and it is easy to do, as there
> are always decent and intelligent hams out there,
> too.

Oh yes, we've been down this path with Charlie before. Anyone who points out the glaring mistakes in Charlie's postings is a "protocol warrior" and "anti-ham".

This, of course, goes a long way to explaining why Charlie's so out of touch with technology, as he won't listen to anyone who knows anything about it.
 
RE: Another fine article.....  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Nitpicked to death by the naysayers.

Pointing out that someone who is proposing a digital network is confused about basic stuff like channel capacity, the difference between broadcast and multicast, bandwidth capacity and the need for error correction isn't nitpicking.

> I would love to see some of the "experts" write an
> article and pass on some of their wisdom to us
> groundlings so we can benefit.

I would love to see intelligent discourse on topics rather than attacks on the people who post them. Guess we're both going to be disappointed.

> It seems like some of the most vociferous voices
> could well do to put themselves in the limelight and > see how it feels like.

Beentheredonethat. In forums that make this one look like sewing bee.

My advice to posters, is Harry Truman's suggestion about kitchens.

> No one has the market cornered on ham knowledge in
> this forum. Period. No one likes to be belittled and
> be told they "need" to educate themselves.

If Charlie doesn't want to be told to get educated, then he should

a) not be so insulting to professionals

and

b) not pontificate on matters he doesn't understand.

and we're not just discussing 'ham knowledge' here; we're discussing network architecture, of which HF digital is put a small part.
 
RE: Another fine article.....  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> To paraphrase Major Edwin Howard Armstrong, "Its the
> things that people know that ain't so"......

and yet, when a guy like charlie comes along, you take shots at the people who are trying to point out how much he 'knows' that ain't so.
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> You guys enjoy these forums and articles? Let me
> tell you one thing......its going to reach a point
> where Clinton AD7RG will have a hard time getting
> any decent articles posted because the authors
> just won't want to put up the BS and assinine
> comments.

And yet, here you are contributing bs and assinine comments.

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Interesting comment, but remember: if the
> Professionals had their way, you wouldn't be using
> this forum at all. Personal Computers, especially in
> the home, were stoutly opposed by the professionals.

Nope. PCs were designed and developed by professionals. The only "opposition" was internal IBM marketing opposition, based on assumptions about consumer demands. They were overruled.

> I remember having to buy "programmable calculators"
> at work because the professionals would not let PCs
> into the corporate environment. And it took a lot of > hams cobbling stuff together to get computers into
> the home.

The first was due to bureaucrats trying to prootect their domains and had nothing to do with professionals in this context.

And hams had next to nothing to do with getting computers into the home.

> So quite often the amateurs are way ahead of the
> professionals, and computers is one field where that
> IS the historical norm.

That's just nonsense. amateur contribution to computer development was a tiny faction of computer development. There was one brief period in the late 70s and early 80s when amateurs were early adopters of computer technology for hobby purposes, but even there their contributions were small.

> Remember, "professional" means you are paid to do
> it, "amateur" means you are not. That is the only
> difference - it has NOTHING to do with competence or
> skill.

That's one usage. However, there's another, which is the one I intended when I used the terms. If you'd prefer, I'll be more blunt: Charlie's in over his head, because he's a complete tyro, and rather than bad mouthing 'professionals', he needs to learn from those who already know.


> I say give it a try. How can I help?

Convince Charlie to learn about networking.

 
RE: Plan A  
by KA4KOE on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Marty,

Was I talking to you? Did I refer to you specifically?
I don't think so.

"BS and assinine" is a little strong from you, borders on the infamous ad hominem. Nah, you don't do that, do you? So why are you attacking me specifically now?

Nonetheless, our webmaster agrees with me on this point that trolls, flamers, and the like take some of the joy out of putting up a creative piece, and some guys have asked that their stuff be taken down. This is a fact. If you disagree, take it up with Clinton, AD7RG, and he'll collaborate this point, most recently on the Iraqi war shortee that KI4ELO put up there.

Anyway, enough wasted oxygen.

PHILIP
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well, here goes another good thread -- down the tubes.

73 all, I'm QRT!
 
RE: Plan A  
by M5WJF on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm still waiting for someone to write code based on STANAG 5066 for Emercomms Use, anybody?
 
RE: Plan A  
by K4JSR on December 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have a plan A! I am going to PLAN A Merry Christmas! If I really believed that there really is
any digital domain other than CW, I guess I would be
disturbed by all of this arguing. Sometimes being
an analog troglodyte has its advantages! At least I
never have to decide between a 0 or a 1. I have never hexed a decimal, nor have I complimented a 2.
The only octals I worry about are tube sockets!
Youse guys have given my one remaining brain cell a
horrible need for nourishment. I have A PLAN to go
consume some Nectar of the Barley!
Please, the rest of you out there PLAN A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
73, Cal K4JSR
Bethlehem, Ga.

PS. Programming is really creating Vapor Ware!!
 
RE: Plan A  
by N5PVL on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
K4JSR says:

--K4JSR-----------------

I have a plan A! I am going to PLAN A Merry Christmas!

-N5PVL------------------

I like K4JSR's plan best of all! - And I hope that other amateurs here follow his good advice.

This thread is winding down... For more information about multicast, visit:

http://www.uspacket.org

(At USPacket, see the Library and Tutorial sections for articles on this subject.)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hf_multicast/

http://www.tapr.org/~wa0ptv/

Meanwhile, the thread may be winding down but it is not dead, and I will be hanging out here as usual at eHam to enjoy this and the other great discussions to be found here.

Charles, N5PVL

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N5PVL on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH says:

--WA6BFH---------------------

Well, I for one would love to help him build such a working system. I suggested a design that I know would cover the country as he has outlined for the mode he prefers.

-N5PVL-----------------------

I thought the station setup you described sounded about right. Since there would not be very many multicast servers required, we should be sure that the ones we do have are top-notch all the way. - I'd like to see the first server at W1AW, but that may not be realistic.

I have suggested PSK streams because I believe they are the most likely avenue to get our foot in the door with this technology. - But I don't really have a preference for PSK over other modes. It's more a matter of picking up the right tool out of the box for this particular job. (Getting started.)

In the long run, I expect other digital modes to be used for multicast... Among the PSK family, we could experiment with fewer, wider streams of PSK63, for example, and perhaps get wider coverage.

Eventually, given that multicast does go into service, multicast-specific digital modes are sure to appear. Basically, anything that you can key up and stream data through has some potential there.

I am looking at PSK streams right now for several reasons:

* There are dozens of PSK programs around - which means that there are dozens of programmers who are already experienced at working with PSK streams. DLL's have been written for working with PSK, making it possible that the software could be written at the application level.

* Great performance in the areas most important to multicast. ( Low power performance, wide copyable coverage area. )

* The narrow streams give us a lot of flexibility in configuring the transmissions to accomplish different aims. It gives us fine control over bandwidth, speed, error correction and even the possibility of multiple data feeds in a single transmission.

* PSK works well on HF, and also on VHF/UHF frequencies. A system designed for HF with PSK streams should work well on higher frequencies, right out of the box.

I think PSK has the most potential of what we have available right now for getting multicast off the drawing board and onto the air.

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N2RXK on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This thread is especially interesting. Several posters spoke of the denigrating behavior of some of the posts, and guess what...the main (and just about only) offender was the only one who JUMPED to defend such actions. "I am right, the WORLD is wrong." "I know it all, JUST ASK ME." Heh heh!!

Charlie...you did right by not challenging...but it sure was fun listening to the purportedly highly intelligent flamer hang himself with his own words.

Maybe you and I can take a networking course together sometime!! hi hi

Have a great Holiday.

Bob N2RXK
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by K4JF on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
<And hams had next to nothing to do with getting computers into the home.>

Bravo Sierra!!! Have you never heard of Wayne Greene and "Byte" magazine? Wayne was a flake, but he was way ahead on that one. Building computers in the home way ahead of today's mass market. It's a fact, don't go trying to change history.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N5PVL on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N2RXK says:

--N2RXK------------------

Charlie...you did right by not challenging...but it sure was fun listening to the purportedly highly intelligent flamer hang himself with his own words.

-N5PVL-------------------

It's not just that none of those posts were challenged...

I wasn't kidding earlier about being experienced here, and knowing whose posts to scroll past... I have literally never read any of the postings you are talking about.

I developed the habit and identified the eHam trolls while reading other articles here... Now days I don't bother to read them at all, having long since lost any curiosity about what a troll might say.

Charles, N5PVL

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N5PVL on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N2RXK says:

--N2RXK------------------

Charlie...you did right by not challenging...but it sure was fun listening to the purportedly highly intelligent flamer hang himself with his own words.

-N5PVL-------------------

It's not just that none of those posts were challenged...

I wasn't kidding earlier about being experienced here, and knowing whose posts to scroll past... I have literally never read any of the postings you are talking about.

I developed the habit and identified the eHam trolls while reading other articles here... Now days I don't bother to read them at all, having long since lost any curiosity about what a troll might say.

Charles, N5PVL

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by KC8VWM on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think Charles N5PVL is on track as far as making improvments where the ARS is concerned.

Great article! Enjoyed it very much. Keep them coming.

Happy Holidays,

73

Charles - KC8VWM


( P.S. Went to get my Kamtronics packet modem out of the deep freeze after reading this article and apparently it still works! )
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by K4RAF on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I think Charles N5PVL is on track as far as making improvments where the ARS is concerned."

This would be a true improvement if he were proposing 1-54 MegaBitPerSecond data on 3.5GHz but 300 baud (HF or telco) went out with Commodore VIC-20's...
 
Plan A  
by W8FAX on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
What sort of messages will all this be handling?? Happy birthday uncle Fred??? Welcome to QCWA buddy?? Thanks for the Xmas gift Aunt Jane?? I hope you are not under some illusion that hams are going to be handling emergency anything in the near future are you??????
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N1EY on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
:"I think Charles N5PVL is on track as far as making improvments where the ARS is concerned."
:This would be a true improvement if he were proposing
:1-54 MegaBitPerSecond data on 3.5GHz but 300 baud (HF
:or telco) went out with Commodore VIC-20's...

I concur with you. Someone else was able to
put out the case about Charle's differing view
and lack of any respect for regs than I was.

I only can reiterate that plan A would require
a lot of bandwidth to transmit much. A
No one else will be able to
share the frequency while he is transmitting.
They will have to use their own frequency to
transmit requests to him. How many times
would the same request be duplicated? How
much bandwidth would the project require?
Can you tell us this now Charles?

The whole argument has a smell of intent to
merely broadcast 24/7.

As for the claims of you being a good part
of the ARS please refer to this quote.

:So though William may be a few bricks short of a full
:load, he has not let his disability keep him from
:making a contribution in his own special way.
:For that, he has the thanks and appreciation of the
:folks at USPN. It is this spirit of volunteerism and
:mutual support that makes the hobby great.

I tried to discuss your prior broadcast
plan with you and I made an attempt to cite
specific regulations. I made an attempt
to articulate and thoughtfully present my
viewpoint in a civil manner. How did
you present yourself?

Now, I would like to quote another post of yours on
USENET.

:Once a RadioMirror client is set up, let's say at the
:Sherriffs office for example, an amateur radio
:operator is not required in order for the people there
:to use it. The client system does not transmit, it
:only recieves amateur radio transmissions and anybody
:can legally do that.

:Radiomirror can simultaneously distribute the
:information you provide to any number of such client
:locations, freeing up your local RACES/ARES hams for
:more interesting and useful work. Most of the present
:setups, both digital and voice, require a ham at each
:location served so this is a significant advantage for
:small groups, struggling to do a lot with just a few
:active members in the field.

People would cite your intentions as laudable.
However, I tried to tell you that I had thought
it was illegal. You propose of transmitting
information to the general public on a routine
basis by the transmissions to equipment that you
have provided.

Sir, I would prefer that you refrain your use
of colourful language. My original purpose was
to tell you of how I had thought your idea
was illegal. I have watched your posts come
online all the time. I have seen you say many
crude things and call newbies as a "troll" when
they ask a question. Nor do I appreciate your
framing of a quote attributed to me on your
website.

Better people would not say a thing. However,
I tried to suggest to you that something was
illegal and I did not want to see you in trouble
for it. Perhaps you should consider your choice
of words for articles such as "Protocol Warrior."
I truly feel sad for you as it appears that you
believe everyone wants harm to fall upon you.

Bill
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AB0WR on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N1EY:

"People would cite your intentions as laudable.
However, I tried to tell you that I had thought
it was illegal. You propose of transmitting
information to the general public on a routine
basis by the transmissions to equipment that you
have provided."

The term "general public" is usually interpreted to mean widespread distribution among the population. An example would be broadcasting music to the population at-large via an FCC licensed FM transmitting station. The population at large (i.e. the general public) may easily listen to such transmission through the use of widely available, easy-to-use receiving equipment.

Transmission to "equipment that you have provided" to *specific* people does not meet the typical definition of being a widely distributed transmission to the population at large. The population at large does not have access to widely available, easy-to-use receiving equipment

It is my opinion that this specific use would not be considered as broadcasting by the FCC.

To those people who pooh-pooh the idea of using such a scheme to get amber alerts out to gas stations and such along the interstate highways and suggest that fax machines and cell phones would be better - this has already been researched. Most gas stations and quicky-marts along the interstate don't have fax machines. The transmission times to multiple fax machines is unbelievable - it makes it unworkable. The effort in building a database of cell phones and pagers that could have messages sent to them would be unbelievable. For anyone who has ever worked at or invested in one of these sites, the turnover is unbelievable, trying to keep a database up would be a significant cost. You will also have a hard time convincing the owners of the establishments to provide cell phones and pagers that can be monitored because of the ease with which these things disappear. If you can't put it in a hardened case and bolt it down, don't even bother.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by K4RAF on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"The transmission times to multiple fax machines is unbelievable - it makes it unworkable"

Then it makes using 300-9600 baud, half duplex, for just text unworkable as well. FAX runs at a minimum of 14.4Kbaud, is full duplex & can include pictures, maps & other graphics. I don't understand why Charles is proposing something that is already outdated before it potentially starts? This is not new thinking at all.

[Amber Alerts] Utilizing the eyes & ears of over 100,000,000 cellphone users (plus pagers, Blackberries, PDAs etc.) who are actually portable far outstrips a mere few hundred hams who honestly can't leave the house because their equipment isn't portable. Amber Alerts work because cell phone users are involved, on the move & can call 911 if subject is spotted.

Thus this half-baked pipedream is a non-starter for anyone who actually has a clue about technology & how alerting the public actually works.

Why is it that this "system" is clearly conceived to compete with broadcast media, the internet & other information outlets yet the author denies this reality?

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AB0WR on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"The transmission times to multiple fax machines is unbelievable - it makes it unworkable"

"Then it makes using 300-9600 baud, half duplex, for just text unworkable as well. FAX runs at a minimum of 14.4Kbaud, is full duplex & can include pictures, maps & other graphics. I don't understand why Charles is proposing something that is already outdated before it potentially starts? This is not new thinking at all."

Because you don't have to have a fax machine in the Kansas Bureau of Investigation trying to call 150 gas stations and quicky-marts up and down I-70 or US-24 on a one-at-a-time basis. It can be set up with maintenance checks that a fax network can't utilize. Most of the Amber Alerts don't have pictures and maps and graphics, at least not on the initial alert - just text with standard descriptions and license tag numbers, etc.


"[Amber Alerts] Utilizing the eyes & ears of over 100,000,000 cellphone users (plus pagers, Blackberries, PDAs etc.) who are actually portable far outstrips a mere few hundred hams who honestly can't leave the house because their equipment isn't portable. Amber Alerts work because cell phone users are involved, on the move & can call 911 if subject is spotted."

Who is going to call all of these people with Amber Alerts? How many gas stations and quicky-mart attendants carry cell phones and Blackberries? What is the turnover on these people and how much cost is it going to entail to keep a database current with all the cell phone numbers for all the counter attendants at the gas stations between Kansas City and Denver?

Would YOU be willing to volunteer to keep the cell phone number database up-to-date? How do you propose even finding out about the changes?

"Thus this half-baked pipedream is a non-starter for anyone who actually has a clue about technology & how alerting the public actually works."

So far, your arguments don't really show any knowledge of how the alerting process works. So you really don't have any basis for calling this a "half-baked pipedream".

I guess I should point out that the State level agencies responsible for the Amber Alerts have already asked the amateur service to help them come up with better ways for distributing them to locations like this. I guess the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Adjutant Generals office don't know how "alerting of the public" actually works either, eh?

"Why is it that this "system" is clearly conceived to compete with broadcast media, the internet & other information outlets yet the author denies this reality?"

How many gas station attendants listen to broadcast radios to get Amber Alerts? I don't know of any. If you were the manager of a gas station along the interstate in Colby, Kansas I'll bet you would WANT your employees to listen to the radio all day long, right?

How many quicky-mart counter attendants have access to internet email while on-duty?

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I am starting to become a little concerned with the "end use" of this proposed system. If it is to be a broad based 'broadcast type alert'system. It should be done on commercial frequencies.

This could be done on the Shortwave bands, as a legaly
licensed broadcast service. The radios would have to be type accepted but, that only raises the cost, nothing else.

It could otherwise {almost be} an Amateur like venture.
It would use Ham type knowledge and technique but, would be, and perhaps should be, a commercial venture.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N5PVL on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Look in the PHOTOS section here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hf_multicast/

for images that depict what frequency will cover what area at different times of the day for two cities, San Francisco and Wahington, DC.

I'm not suggesting Frisco and DC as multicast sites...

I'm suggesting that the maps tell an interesting story. Two servers for the continental US and southern (populated) Canada, maybe three?

For practical purposes, it would take an astronomical number of point-to-point stations to cover the same area, delivering the same content. - It would take a heck of a lot longer, too.

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> This thread is especially interesting. Several
> posters spoke of the denigrating behavior of some of
> the posts, and guess what...the main (and just about
> only) offender was the only one who JUMPED to defend
> such actions. "I am right, the WORLD is wrong." "I
> know it all, JUST ASK ME." Heh heh!!

Gee Bob, in what way is the above comment not denigrating.

By the way, who are you making it about? The only one in this thread who is behaving like they know it all is Charlie, but I doubt very much that he's who you mean.

I, for one, am looking for rational discourse. But mostly, what I'm seeing is ad hominem like yours.

Maybe, instead of attacking people, you'd like to discuss the topic at hand?

Show me the error in my technical criticism of Charlie's proposal, so we can all learn.


 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Philip,

I thought I posted a reply but it seems to be mising. Let me try again:

> Was I talking to you?

You posted in the thread. Thus you were talking to everyonee reading the thread. that includes me.

> Did I refer to you specifically?

Did i say you did?

> I don't think so.

> "BS and assinine" is a little strong from you,
> borders on the infamous ad hominem.

It was your phrase.

> Nah, you don't do that, do you? So why are you
> attacking me specifically now?

I commented on your remarks. That's not an attack, it's a disagreement.

> Nonetheless, our webmaster agrees with me on this
> point that trolls, flamers, and the like take some
> of the joy out of putting up a creative piece, and
> some guys have asked that their stuff be taken down.
> This is a fact.

Here's another one: There was no flamiing or trolling in this thread. Well, Charlie did start out with a bunch of derogatory comments about the industry, and I did post one carefully labeled comment replying in kind, but other than that, there was only criticism of Charlie's ideas, and a strong recommendation that he gain more experience.

> If you disagree, take it up with Clinton, AD7RG,
> and he'll collaborate this point, most recently on
> the Iraqi war shortee that KI4ELO put up there.

If I had anything to take up with Clinton, it would be to recommend that if he wants a higher tone in the threads he should start by making sure that the articles aren't as derogatory and insulting as Charlie was.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> <And hams had next to nothing to do with getting
> computers into the home.>

> Bravo Sierra!!! Have you never heard of Wayne Greene
> and "Byte" magazine? Wayne was a flake, but he was
> way ahead on that one.

I met Mr Greene at a West Coast Computer Fair. Byte magazine was one of many hobby magazines that had a tiny role in the inevitable.

> Building computers in the home way ahead of today's
> mass market. It's a fact, don't go trying to change
> history.

If you want "facts"; the usual amatuer group most often associated with the early days of hobby computing was the Home Brew Computer Club. Unlike Byte, HBCC can trace its actions directly to industry, in the form of the Apple I. Byte came rather late to the game.

But a few things you are overlooking:

1) The homebrew movement couldn't have existed without the huge investment of the industry. Tough to brew a PC without all those PC related semiconductors developed at TI, Motorola, Intel, and other large companies.

2) The homebrew movement was a tiny part of a growing trend that had been around for a long time. Ken Olsen had a much bigger role in getting computers into the home than the homebrew movement did, and his role was only a tiny part of the industrial involvement. (My first 'home computer' was a PDP 11/45)

3) Even the TRS "trash" 80 played a bigger role than the homebrew movement, and it was only one of a large number of such machine built by long gone companies like Cromemco, IMSAI, Heathkit, and dozens of others.

4) The PC in the home would have been relegated to just another hobby oddity had it not been for the boys from Boca Raton.

The homebrewers and hobbiest were a drop in the ocean, on one of the first waves of the tsunami, and it's nice to remember homebrewing fondly, but it was a sidelight, not the main course.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> To those people who pooh-pooh the idea of using such
> a scheme to get amber alerts out to gas stations and
> such along the interstate highways and suggest that
> fax machines and cell phones would be better - this
> has already been researched. Most gas stations and
> quicky-marts along the interstate don't have fax
> machines.

They don't have licensed hams hanging about or ARS receivers, either.

> The transmission times to multiple fax machines is
> unbelievable - it makes it unworkable. The effort in
> building a database of cell phones and pagers that
> could have messages sent to them would be
> unbelievable.

Both true. Neither relevant.

> For anyone who has ever worked at or invested in one
> of these sites, the turnover is unbelievable, trying
> to keep a database up would be a significant cost.

A DB of employees, sure. A DB of site phones: already done. Again, though, not relevant.

> You will also have a hard time convincing the owners
> of the establishments to provide cell phones and
> pagers that can be monitored because of the ease
> with which these things disappear. If you can't put
> it in a hardened case and bolt it down, don't even
>bother.

True, but, again, irrelevant.

To disperse Amber Alerts using ham radio, one would have to put receivers and computers at all of these sites. The receivers would require antennas; the computers printers. All of this would have to be maintained.

None of this is any more feasible than the cell phone or fax machine ideas.

But, again, irrelevant.

There already exists a medium for distribution of bulletins like Amber Alters, and it works pretty well at the process: AM broadcast radio. Receivers are cheap, computers aren't necessary and the broadcasters are more than willing. Far from perfect, but already of proven value in Amber Alerts.

Meanwhile, there's another technology, already being deployed, and soon to be widespread, that will be even more effective. It's a form of advertising you may have noticed but not paid attention to. It consists of TV monitors pointed towards customers at checkout counters. The ads are distributed using a (real) multicast system, and the store owners have an incentive, in the form of advertising revenue, for maintaining the system.

There's already a pilot program in California, and Amber Alerts have been delivered using this system.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey AE6IP, take a look at all those semi-conductor companies that got trashed by the Japenese (and the market thereafter).

It all could have been different!!!!

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Guys, relative to this thread, I think many of you need to read Part 97.

Beyond that, we all need to hear what the end use is of this proposed system.

For some who only want to tear things apart -- never working to build anything -- I say, p$ss off!

I'm for the best in Ham Radio! 73, de John
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by KC8VWM on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

What an interesting and loveable hobby this seems to be. I especially enjoy reading these jugular vein cutting, knife to the heart, warrior style postings that seem to validate and further enhance how everyone in this fraternity just seems to have so many gentle and nice things to say to one another.


Happy Holidays.

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N5PVL on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
KC8VWM Says:

--KC8VWM------------------

What an interesting and loveable hobby this seems to be. I especially enjoy reading these jugular vein cutting, knife to the heart, warrior style postings that seem to validate and further enhance how everyone in this fraternity just seems to have so many gentle and nice things to say to one another.

-N5PVL---------------------

I describe such individuals as "protocol warriors", and once wrote an article about how I got past all of that, once and for all.

"How I Won the Protocol Wars"

http://www.uspacket.org/l_protowars.htm


Best of the Season!

Charles, N5PVL
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by N2RXK on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AE6IP,

How did I know you probably would be the only one to respond to that short off-topic post?? Did I ever mention you?? Why did you think it was aimed at you?? So I guess my denigrating comment is only denigrating to the perceiver of that post.

I guess we are what we think we are...heh heh.
Thanks for falling into the trap.

Bob N2RXK
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Hey VWM, do you understand what some of these "ham's" (note the lack of capitalization) are doing? Or, are you one too?

They build nothing, typically know nothing but, tear down any idea! I believe this to be a psychological defect (or sociopathic). If they could build anything, or do something good themselves, they would not have the time to pee in other folks Wheaties!
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by K4JF on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
<Wayne was a flake, but he was way ahead on that one.

I met Mr Greene at a West Coast Computer Fair. Byte magazine was one of many hobby magazines that had a tiny role in the inevitable.>

Nice that you met him at a computer fair, rather than a hamfest. He was WAY ahead of the "industry" advances you mention, and did a world of good to the budding home computer movement.

He did a lot of damage, however, to Ham radio, with his constant elitist harping against "incentive licensing".
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by WA6BFH on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Elitist Harping"? Thats pretty funny coming from someone with a 1X2 callsign! Maybe you don't remember Ham radio of the 1960's and prior!

Wayne Green was a zealot, and he got kinda wierd by the late 70's but, in general though, he was correct! Incentive licensing was the first chip in the stone, toward what we have these days that is called a "license examination". Listen to guys talk on the air these days, they openly admit that they passed the 'exam' by merely reading through the study material. What kind of a SKILLs exam is that? Ask them a question that would require some electronic knowledge, and see what they do!

It wasn't like that in the 60's, or like I said, don't you remember!
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by K4RAF on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I guess the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Adjutant Generals office don't know how "alerting of the public" actually works either, eh?"

I guess not since here on the East Coast, a week doesn't go by without some form of Amber Alert being broadcast. Less than 10% fail in their objective of locating the subject. Broadcast media, police radio, pagers & variable message signs are used. SMS works on cellphones so there would be no need to dial anyone. These are far more effective than some closed 300 baud PSK stream, on HF of all things.

This "plan" isn't a scheme for useful information resources based on the numbers alone.

 
RE: Plan A  
by KC8VWM on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Hey VWM, do you understand what some of these "ham's" (note the lack of capitalization) are doing? Or, are you one too?

They build nothing, typically know nothing but, tear down any idea!"

Am I one of these too?

...Bring on the scopes, VOM's, Breadboards and my trusty box of twisted wired wrecks I use for salvaging parts.

I love the smell of rosin flux in the morning.

Nuff said?

73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
ATTN Moderator - about AE6IP.  
by G7HEU on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I have to say I'm a little disappointed that a certain lunatic is continuously allowed to 'hijack' threads on E-ham.



Please Mr Moderator do a few searches across the

E-ham board. I think you'll discover that one individual 'gets off' on arguing but adds nothing. He tells everyone how clever he is but at the same time appears to know very little.



How many helpful posts has he made to the 'Elmers' forum? That's a rhetorical question.



So, either he knows as much as he claims and would rather fart(y) about here or he actually knows very little. Either way I reckon this site would be richer without him.



Isn't it about time he was banned from here?



Best wishes



Steve

M0HEU / G7HEU.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AB0WR on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I guess the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Adjutant Generals office don't know how "alerting of the public" actually works either, eh?"

K4RAF: "I guess not since here on the East Coast, a week doesn't go by without some form of Amber Alert being broadcast. Less than 10% fail in their objective of locating the subject. Broadcast media, police radio, pagers & variable message signs are used. SMS works on cellphones so there would be no need to dial anyone. These are far more effective than some closed 300 baud PSK stream, on HF of all things. "

I'll be sure and let them know that they should consider turning over their design of alerting systems to K4RAF since you obviously know so much more than they do. Please forward a business card to me and I'll let them know you are available to point their errors out to them.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Charles VWM, I'm sorry if that post seemed pointed at you, that was not my intent!

There are two persons, one imparticular, that contributes nothing to these threads, but to nit-pick abstract meaningless details. Thats the dude that I was relly referring to!

Once again, my apologies! 73! de John
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Hey AE6IP, take a look at all those semi-conductor
> companies that got trashed by the Japenese (and the
> market thereafter).

> It all could have been different!!!!

Yup. And the Japanese are now facing similar problems from the Chinese and Korean semi manufacturers.

Not a business I'd want to be in these days.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> How did I know you probably would be the only one to
> respond to that short off-topic post??

Because hindsight is 20/20.

> Did I ever mention you??

Did I say you did?

> Why did you think it was aimed at you??

Did I say i did?

> So I guess my denigrating comment is only
> denigrating to the perceiver of that post.

Well, you didn't say it was aimed at me, and I didn't say I was responding because I thought it was, so I'm guessing that maybe you're wrong there.
 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
It's rather hard to see how Byte magazine could have been 'way ahead' of the processors that it described, which had to already exist to be so described, or the work of Ken Olson, which dates to the late 60s. (GUIs and such date to the early 60s, along with the idea of a 'personal workstation'. The internet dates to the late 60s.)

 
RE: Plan A ...which is better then plan ZERO!  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> Hey VWM, do you understand what some of
> these "ham's" (note the lack of capitalization) are
> doing? Or, are you one too?

There's no need for capitalization, 'ham' is not a proper noun, and it's not an acryonym. Also, there's no need for the apostrophe, since you're not mentioning anything that 'these "ham's"' possess.

> They build nothing, typically know nothing but, tear
> down any idea! I believe this to be a psychological
> defect (or sociopathic). If they could build
> anything, or do something good themselves, they
> would not have the time to pee in other folks
> Wheaties!

I guess people like that exist. I've never met them. I have met a lot more people, like Charlie, and, it appears from the above, yourself, who'd rather question the character of a fellow ham, and anonymously at that, than learn something from a expert.

It's funny, the extent to which people will go to vilify those trying to help them, in order to avoid admiting that perhaps there's something they don't understand.

 
RE: ATTN Moderator - about AE6IP.  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> I have to say I'm a little disappointed that a
> certain lunatic is continuously allowed to 'hijack'
> threads on E-ham.

Steve, the only person posting in this thread who fits that description is yourself. You're the one who has on several occassions attempted to hijack threads by inserting attacks against posters who were on topic in the thread, often going so far as to cite, out of context, material from completely unrelated discussions that occured on different web boards years ago.

But if you want to ask to be banned, that's your perogative.

 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> There are two persons, one imparticular, that
> contributes nothing to these threads, but to nit-
> pick abstract meaningless details. Thats the dude
> that I was relly referring to!

And who might they be? This thread was pretty much on topic with comments and criticism directed towards Charlie's proposal, until a few posters, including yourself, started making veiled insults against other posters.

Pity you'd rather do that than discuss the topic on hand. Ironic that you don't see how your comment applies to your own posts.
 
RE: Plan A  
by KC8VWM on December 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"Charles VWM, I'm sorry if that post seemed pointed at you, that was not my intent!"

John, John, John,

No problem my friend. No need to apologize. I understood what you were talking about.

I was just expanding on your point about certain individuals who were quick to tear down other people's ideas yet they didn't seem to know which end of a soldering iron to hold.

John, I want to wish you and your family all the best for the Holiday season.

73

Charles - KC8VWM
 
RE: Plan A  
by WA6BFH on December 17, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks for understanding Charles! I guess I let the right brained side of my personality take over for a few minutes!

It's funny in one way though, the main Duf'i reacted to an earlier post, and characteristically missed the point -- yet again!

You have a very good Holiday as well! I had to make ammends, with a black mark like that against me, Santa might not bring me that new FT-847!

73, and Merrrry Christmas!
 
RE: Plan A  
by TECH2005 on December 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
What's plan B?
 
RE: Plan A  
by AE6IP on December 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Plan B: We take up a collection to buy Charlie a copy of Stevens, and someone sets up bittorrent on his PC to give him an idea how peer-to-peer multicasting *really* works.
 
RE: Plan A  
by N9LYA on December 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Great job Charles,
Keep up the good work..
I am here to help you as always..

73 Jerry N9LYA
 
RE: Plan A  
by N2NXZ on November 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Then again.Use OARS :)
 
RE: Plan A  
by N2NXZ on November 5, 2007 Mail this to a friend!
Then again.Use OARS :) To:W5GNB
 
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