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[Articles Home]  [Add Article]  

Subbands by Bandwidth

Bob Lewis (AA4PB) on December 28, 2004
View comments about this article!


The Planned Regulation of Subbands by Bandwidth

By Bob Lewis (AA4PB)

Quite a number of hams appear to be concerned that the ARRL's proposed change in regulation would cripple ham radio by placing bandwidth limits on our signals. After carefully reading the proposal, it appears to me that the only limit is at the upper end of 3Khz for most of the HF spectrum. There is an exception to permit AM operation up to 6Khz bandwidth. For those who think this limit is unreasonable, I have to wonder if we really want modes that take up more than 3Khz of HF spectrum. In practice we have those limits now because we are limited to certain modes and a requirement to limit bandwidth to that prescribed by good amateur practice for the particular mode. To me that means that a SSB station operated in accordance with good amateur practice would certainly be limited to not more than 3Khz of bandwidth.

Some are concerned that we will somehow be required to be able to measure our bandwidth in order to ensure it meets the prescribed requirements. That will not be necessary for the majority of people. We have power limits but only those that operate at the limit have to actually measure it. It is not necessary to constantly measure the output power of a 100W transmitter to ensure that it doesn't go over 1500 Watts. We aren't required to have a frequency standard to measure our transmit frequency. We just stay far enough inside the band to be safe. In the digital realm there are presently requirements for some stations to stay within a 500 Hz bandwidth. Those stations are not required to demonstrate that to the FCC. It is accepted that the mode is 500 Hz or less. The same would be true if the proposed regulations are enacted. If you operate SSB with a properly adjusted transmitter then it would be assumed that you are less than 3 KHz wide and permitted to operate in the 3 Khz subband. The 60M band currently has a bandwidth limit of 2.8 Khz and we aren't required to measure our transmitters with laboratory equipment before we operate on 60M. The only people that would need the capability to actually measure the bandwidth would be the developers of a new mode that approaches the 3 Khz limit (or the limit of the subband they wish to operate in). I would hope that they would have measured the bandwidth of their signal anyway before they put it on the air. Once the bandwidth of the mode has been determined then the average user will not need to measure it. He will operate in the subband that has the bandwidth to accommodate that mode.

The 200 Hz subband is intended to permit CW at all speeds that a human operator can copy. ARRL tests show that 150 Hz is adequate for most CW signals. Yes, if you send a string of dits at 60WPM it may indeed exceed 200 Hz. I have to wonder why it would be necessary to send a continuous string of dits at that speed. If that's what you want to do however then you can simply move up to the 500 Hz subband. Hi speed computer generated and decoded CW may exceed 200 Hz as well but it will be permitted in the 500 Hz subband.

Why is it necessary to change the regulations to divide the bands into subbands to contain signals of like bandwidth? The present rules were written at a time when everything was analog. The bands were divided to group stations of a similar bandwidth together but they were prescribed by mode rather than the actual bandwidth. That used to work just fine. Phone was AM and SSB and image was analog slow scan, all of which has a similar bandwidth. They were grouped together in the high end of the band. CW and RTTY were much narrower bandwidth and so they were grouped together in the low end of the bands. With the rapidly changing technology the lines are becoming blurred. It is now possible to send almost anything via a digital means. The day is likely coming when you will be able to send voice, pictures, and data files over the very same digital signal. As the rules stand now you'd have to move to a different subband to transmit a different content, even though the signal is exactly the same. Then there are issues such as if I send my voice via a digital transmission is that phone, belonging in the phone subband or is it digital, belonging in the digital subband? With the present rules every time a new mode is developed there is the issue of whether the rules permit it at all. The FCC has “bent” many of the current rules to permit new modes to be utilized but you still find much of the experimentation being done outside the U.S. because our rules are no longer clear. Packet, for example, was not permitted in the U.S. for quite a while. This resulted in most of the early work being done in Canada. The FCC finally “bent” the rules by deciding that since ASCII characters were imbedded inside the packets then it was permitted under the rule that allows ASCII to be transmitted. PSK31 (also developed outside the U.S.) required even more of a “bend” since it transmits a different code entirely. The FCC finally ruled that since the new characters are translated from ASCII it too could be permitted under the rule that allows ASCII to be transmitted. Under that thinking I guess any mode that is typed on a computer keyboard can be considered ASCII since it began life as an ASCII character, regardless of how it was altered before being transmitted.

I believe the FCC is open to permitting new modes and experimentation. It is just that they are tied down by old, cumbersome rules and bureaucracies move slowly. The FCC actually proposed moving to assigning subbands by bandwidth some years ago but it never made it into the regulations.

By moving to assigning subbands by the bandwidth of the signal, every mode (including new modes yet to be developed) gets a place determined by its bandwidth. We no longer have to be concerned with having the mode authorized by the FCC before we can use it or experiment with it. The FCC no longer needs to “bend” rules to permit new modes to be used. It no longer matters what the content of the transmission is. All we have to do is put it in the appropriate slot for its bandwidth. Rather than imposing an additional burden on amateurs it will free us to experiment by accommodating new modes automatically. The rules will become much clearer and no longer require “liberal interpretation” to permit some of the existing modes.

In addition, the ARRL has done a good job in proposing bandwidth assignments that will have very little, if any, impact on any existing operation. If the proposed rules are enacted you will not have to move to a different band segment. Most of us can continue to operate exactly as we do now.

Member Comments:
This article has expired. No more comments may be added.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
My concern with the ARRL's proposal is not that it introduces new rules that would force us to "move", or to operate differently, but rather that it opens the bands up to QRM from semi-automatic stations.

Pactor I and II have bandwidths of less than 500hz, which according to the table near the bottom of the ARRL proposal in http://www.arrl.org/announce/bandwidth.html means that these modes could be used in any of the following frequency ranges: 3580 to 4000, 7035 to 7300, 10120 to 10150, 14065 to 14350, 18100 to 18168, 21080 to 21450, 24920 to 24990, and 28050 to 29700.

Pactor I and II have their virtues, but their use by semi-automatic stations has resulted in unintentional QRM on the band segments in which they are now permitted. This occurs when a semi-automatic station responds to a remote request, QRMing a station local to the semi-automatic station but not heard by the remote station initiating the request. Its a well known problem.

New protocols designed for semi-automatic operation can mitigate this problem by detecting and avoiding a busy channel, or by QRTing in response to a protocol-independent "universal QRL". Until such protocols have been implemented and proven, and until the rules are modified to preclude the use of "situationally unaware" protocols like Pactor by semiautomatic stations, the current proposal jeopardizes the useability of our bands.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by LNXAUTHOR on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"To me that means that a SSB station operated in accordance with good amateur practice would certainly be limited to not more than 3Khz of bandwidth."

- and we all know how this works out in the real world!

:-)

- appreciate the digression... it will be interesting to see how practical applications of new digital modes work out with existing modes and users...
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WIRELESS on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Too bad the arrl doesn't give its full attention to BPL instead of this nonesense.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You may have a valid concern in regard to semi-automatic Pactor stations, but we would still continue the tradition of voluntary band plans that would tend to cluster like modes together within the regulated segment. Pactor stations can presently legally operate over the entire CW band segment but for the most part they tend to stay away from the low end. PSK31 probably receives the most QRM from Pactor stations and under the proposed regulations would be relieved of this by moving to the 200Hz segment where the Pactor stations will not be permitted.

I do agree that semi-automatic operation is a somewhat different animal that, in my opinion, needs some additional restrictions. It has been around for a long time but didn't create much of a problem because there weren't many of them until recent years. In future years we may be seeing semi-automatic operation of modes other than Pactor, perhaps some of them narrow enough to fit in the 200Hz segment. I think semi-automatic operation is something that needs to be addressed as a separate issue from bandwidth.

For U.S. stations, fully automatic operations in the HF spectrum will be entirely eliminated by the proposed changes.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KA7GKN on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with wireless. The ARRL sent me a letter recently begging for money so they could reach their budget! Well, if they would cut the bureaucracy and focus on the real issues; maybe they could retain their membership and even get new members! Perhaps more wisely spend all the money they are receiving. I won't even go into salary abuse and unjustified perks!

I think the ARRL should abandon the bandplan [for now] and address the more pressing issue known as "BPL" This should be number one priority!!!
If BPL does succeed then the the band plan is moot!

I live in Arizona and I'm shocked to how many Hams have their heads buried in the sand [or other places] and think BPL will just go away!
Well, folks BPL is in cottonwood Az. and just recently the FCC gave the BPL folks a temporary license of sorts and told them to play nice with the Hams..Of course they are not!!!

I could go on into a rant, but I hope you get the idea..
by the way I am a member of the ARRL!!! I am a member because they are the only legitimate voice we have right now. Should another entity come by with more influence I'll join them in a moment!

marty ka7gkn
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KE4MOB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think the whole idea is ridiculous, and creates more headaches than it solves.

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W4PA on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
>>There is an exception to permit AM operation up to 6Khz bandwidth. For those who think this limit is unreasonable, I have to wonder if we really want modes that take up more than 3Khz of HF spectrum.<<

These two statements are contradictory. It has to allow provision for any voice mode to whatever the limit is for AM operation. If it's 6 kHz for AM, then the limit needs to be 6 kHz for other voice modes, too.
It's isn't right to allow once voice mode to occupy a large chunk of spectrum without allowing others.
I am in favor of either no change being made to the present regulations or allowing all voice modes to operate at whatever maximum bandwidth is set for AM operation.

The main problem (as I see it) with the ARRL proposal is that limiting voice bandwidth is going to spell the end of experimentation on the HF bands with digital voice modes.

The next stop after regulation by bandwidth is the channelizing of the HF ham bands a la 60 meters.

Be careful what we ask for - we just might get it.

Scott Robbins, W4PA
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W5GNB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think the ARRL is quite OFF TRACK with the real issues as usual. I have to agree with the fact that BPL is a real threat and NOW is the time to get a handle on it, not AFTER it is installed in every community.
If the ARRL wants to limit bandwidth and make the ham bands a nice place to visit, how about ELIMINATING about 90% of the stupid contests that barage us every weekend on ALL the major bands!!
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W5HTW on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I think W4PA is correct - the next step would be setting up channels. I'm sure the ARRL is not in favor of channels for ham radio, but the FCC may see no alternative if the bandplan idea passes as written.

Ed
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
What's the big advantage of digital speech on HF? Analogue speech is understandable enough for a DX contact at around 3 or 4dB SNR - there's limited info to pass. I haven't yet come across a digital speech scheme that fits in 3kHz and works down to that SNR at all. The usual effects are of, course the speech suddenly drops out, not gently degrades, and I read the modem on the market falls over at 14dB SNR.

I'm not at all convinced of the advantages of digital speech in ham radio: professionally, I haven't designed an anlogue radio system since 1989 as they've all been digital, but I still don't see the point for ham radio. Maybe 'because it's there', its interesting to play with, but Claude Shannon described a good many years ago what the problems are at low SNRs.

Peter G3RZP
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K0BG on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
One way to "fix" the 6 kHz problem with AM is just eliminate it. It still bewilders me why modern transceivers still offer it. It does have its place (the air bands are a good example), but in my opinion not on the amateur bands-the ARRL's stance notwithstanding.

Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
The way I look at it, AM is "grandfathered". I don't think we want new voice modes (be they analog or digital) that occupy more than 3Khz of bandwidth in the HF spectrum. The general idea is to use less bandwidth, not more.

It seems to me that the ARRL has been doing quite a lot to combat BPL. I don't think that they need to stop all other activity in order to concentrate on BPL. The bandwidth issue began before BPL was a big concern and I think they have the resources to continue work on both.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N4ZOU on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You can't trust the ARRL to do anything that would change the current rules. Lets start off with incentive licensing as a prime example. Ever since this ARRL proposed and implemented fiasco the only changes have been a slow and painful retreat from it that is still currently in process. The next fiasco was unattended automatic operation of MBO stations using modes other than Packet. Packet stations operate on a single frequency in the network and everyone knows where they are. Aplink and Pactor MBO's only allow two stations on one frequency and these stations will scan many frequency's on several bands so you never know when and where they will pop up and force you off "there" frequency. The ARRL is a prime example of this type of abuse by sending their members standard NTS messages reminding them of their birthday and to renew their license and membership using Winlink classic to forward these messages across the HF bands. At least Winlink 2000 stations use the Internet to limit the abuse. Now the ARRL digital Ad-hoc committee wanted to force Pactor III and Winlink 2000 with it's 3 KHz wide digital signals in a portion of the bands where other countries allow SSB phone mode along with other digital modes and experimentation. The ARRL digital Ad-hoc committee wanted NO analog phone modes in there attempted "land grab".
Lets not forget that allowing so called semi-automatic and mixed-mode operation on the current phone bands would cause. The first thing you will find showing up would be unattended digital and analog phone robots. I know you have already used one. Call just about any business these days and you get one. You know, press 1 for this and 2 for that. Just think of having a nice QSO going with someone when all of a sudden a robot pops up on or very close to your frequency and says, Welcome to the whatever net voice mail system. Please enter your user name and password and then you hear DTMF tones as the station logging on checks in. Enough said?
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA1RNE on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

It would seem the ARRL Ad Hoc HF Digital Committee wants their cake and eat it too.

As the name of the service implies, this is the Amateur Radio Service, not a commercial service. Commercial licensees are required to operate under much tighter restrictions on bandwidth, but know and expect that up-front.

When they apply for a license, they know they will need to hire an engineering staff and make capital expenditures for monitoring instrumentation - some of which cost thousands of dollars each.

When was the last time YOU checked your 2 meter, 70cm, etc. FM transmitter's deviation?

When was the last time you connected a monitor scope or spectrum analyzer to your HF rig to check the bandwidth of your RTTY or SSB tranmissions??

That's right, NEVER is the answer you will hear from the vast majority - which means >90% of the amateur population.

So how does the ARRL expect to sandwich-in digital modes AND enact a bandwidth limited restructuring when the majority of licensees are "hoofing it" in terms of monitoring their transmissions?

I think this committee has a massive case of "Digitally-Induced Feelings of Grandeur" and needs to get back to reality.

If the ARRL wants to expand experimentation of digital modes - full well knowing they have a high probability of interfering with other modes susceptable to being interfered by them, then make some LOGICAL and REALISTIC choices using good old commonn sense.

The amateur service has vast amounts of under-utilized band space, especially in the VHF, UHF and Microwave spectrum. Considering that, if experimenation is key, why not utilize these bands for digital operation which can accomodate larger bandwidths by virtue of the size of the band and at the same time without the need to precisely monitor bandwidth??

The problem is not that our current rules were based upon a "then-analog-world." Our current HF spectrum is microscopic in comparison to our VHF-UHF-Microwave spectrum assignments and expansion of digital operation in the HF subbands is just not practical.

This would even satisfy those who are proposing a wireless digital initiative, with linked stations forming a pseudo-broadband wireless "internet" of sorts.

Talk about having your cake and eat it too.....

I agree with other posters....the ARRL should be shifting focus to more important issues, not some pipe dream that will benefit a select few and create havoc for many.

73, Chris
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W2AEW on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
> These two statements are contradictory. It has to allow provision for any voice mode to whatever
> the limit is for AM operation. If it's 6 kHz for AM, then the limit needs to be 6 kHz for other voice
> modes, too. It's isn't right to allow once voice mode to occupy a large chunk of spectrum
> without allowing others.

They're really not contradictory - they both provide for the same 3Khz of audio. AM wouldn't be getting any more audio BW that the SSBers with this proposal. I would venture to say that most SSB stations would already easily meet the 3Khz limit, while many AM stations would not meet the 6Khz proposal.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AC0H on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with Dave, AA6YQ, and will add it seems to me this entire proposal is nothing more than an attempt by the ARRL to find a "home" for Winlink.

<<"What's the big advantage of digital speech on HF?">>


An excellent question that's been unanswered by those advocating these new "modes". What advantage does digital voice have over analog other than the gee whiz factor and equipment sales for vendors?

<<"You may have a valid concern in regard to semi-automatic Pactor stations, but we would still continue the tradition of voluntary band plans that would tend to cluster like modes together within the regulated segment.">>

Voluntary band plans would quickly degenerate into all out "mode wars" simply because any and all modes of a specific bandwidth would be legal, regardless of their compatability with adjacent signals. Just because its legal to do something doesn't mean it should be done. It's currently legal for me to operate CW on any frequency on any band. I wouldn't even consider opening up with CW in the SSB sub-bands.

Can you guarantee that same restraint by the proponents of new digital modes that don't fit the proposed 500Hz bandwidth segment? The best digital mode since sliced bread comes out but uses 1Khz of space. No room in the 500Hz segment but its perfectly legal in the 3Khz segment, which BTW, is where all of the SSB activity is. Riley and the boys would be dealing with a mountain of intentional QRM complaints.

If you want to experimant with new modes of communication more power to you. I would suggest that these new modes be used in the vastly under utilized portion of the spectrum above VHF/UHF rather than trying to shoehorn them into already crowded HF spectrum.

Here's a little secret I'll let everyone in on including the ARRL. Nobody wants to take our HF spectrum from us. They do however covet some of our VHF/UHF/SHF allocations which are a comparative barren wasteland.


 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K5UJ on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Unless ARRL has changed their proposal, the AM bandwidth is 9 KHz not 6. That makes the proposal illogical for a number of reasons i don't have time to get into unfortunately, but if the AM is going to be 9, the SSB should be at least 4.5 KHz. it makes more sense to limit all radiotelephone to whatever the AM limit is.

I suspect this is a moot subject since the FCC declined action on the W0YR petition, which proposed a phone bandwidth, for among other reasons, the inability of most hams to affordably and accurately measure their own bandwidth.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N0NWO on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Thanks AA4PB for your view on this sujectm but I must respectfully disagree with you.

The concerns around the proposed changes were mostly centered arount the winkink mode which is overly wide (a real frequency hog). There are other modes that are just as fast but much much more spectrom afficient.

This mode currently is also very expensive to operate because one needs to buy a special modem to the tune of $1,000. As a result of the beef, I understand that there is now going to be some software released that will be free and one will be able to use a sound card. It took a lot of howelling for this to come about.

Another gripe of this mode is that it does not listen for quiet frequency before sending. It will in fact be a qrm nightmare unless restricted to specific frequencies.

Winlink was to be proposed as the ONLY digital mode for auto forwarding thereby eliminating the compitition of packet and other digital modes. This monopoly comes about because at least 3 of the 5 committy members that made these proposed changes have monetary intrests involved. Such as royalties on the software and hardware. So if you want to use packet or PSK to auto forward messages, it will be ileagle. You MUST use winlink and put money into the pockets of the very people involved in making the rule change.

The real red harring in all this is the justification for these rule changes. The winlink people on the committy claim that if one used winlink to send pictures, they would have to move to one part of the band and if they wanted to send an audio file, they would need to move to another portion of the band and text to another part of the band. That is plain crap! (sorry, I got carried away) Digital is digital. The FCC makes no distinction on what the digital content is, only the mode itself. Digital pictures are not the same SSTV... they are DIGITAL.

When I first read the proposed changes, the sounded reasonable to me too, and I told them so. But after further investigation, not only is it a very very poorly put together plan, it turns out to be a money making scam for the ones making the rules.

Who aksed for this change??? Not the %20 of hams the ARRL claims to represend. And not the other %80 OF HAMS EITHER. It was 4 of 5 people on a committy. They can see dollar signs.

Nope... this plan blows like a bulimic after Christmas dinner.

Minton
 
Subbands by Bandwidth = Destructive  
by K4RAF on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Why would this be better than the gentlemen's agreements that have worked since the beginning of time?

I trust the FCC will cut this stupid proposal down along with maintaining multiple license classes & retention of CW. The ARRL has worn out the welcome extended by the FCC.

It is time to preserve what little cohesion we have left by simplifying entire service & its' regulations.

We need less rules, not more!
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N0NWO, I think you have some misinformation. Nowhere in the proposal do I read anything about WinLink being the only mode permitted to autoforward. As a matter of fact, all fully automatic operation is prohibited in the HF bands under this proposal, regardless of mode. Semi-automatic control is permitted in any mode, not just Pactor, and certainly not restricted to WinLink. Perhaps you are confusing this issue with the ARES proposal the use of WinLink as an addition to their other operations.

Indeed, if you read the present rules you will find that it is not clear that "digital is digital" regardless of content. That is exactly the problem - it's not clear. For example, why are the new digital voice stations operating in the phone band? If they can transmit digital information (voice) on the phone band then why can't someone else transmit digital information (text) on the phone band?
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Why would this be better than the gentlemen's agreements that have worked since the beginning of time?

Because many operations are already limited beyond the gentlemen's agreements to the point where new modes and experimentation are often prevented by the existing regulations. Perhaps you are suggesting that the FCC eliminate subbands entirely and just let everything work out by gentlemen's agreements. At least that would permit experimentation and new modes.

I don't see the proposal as "more regulation", I see it as less regulation. It's an attempt at opening things up to allow experimentation and the development of new modes while at the same time attempting to satisfy those who don't want anything to change. Most of the opposition seems to stem from everyone trying to protect his own turf. I got my favorite mode so just keep everyone else away from me and my subband :-)
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
the AM bandwidth is 9 KHz not 6
-----------------------------------
That's correct. AM is 9, ISB is 6.

Again, I think AM is "grandfathered" because it has been around for a long time and there are people still using it. I don't think we want to open things up and permit other modes taking up 9KHz of HF spectrum. An exception to the 3KHz maximum was made for AM because to do otherwise would put the AM stations off the air. While AM is inefficient, there aren't so many AM stations that it causes many problems. It would be a different story however if you made 9KHz universal and someday ended up with a band full of 9KHz wide signals.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K4RAF on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"I don't see the proposal as "more regulation", I see it as less regulation."

How can you say that it's less?

You are not looking at it from the FCC's regulatory standpoint. They will be burdened with enforcing this proposal on top of everything else currently in place.

This clearly serves to protect ARRL sponsorship of the WinLink 2000 scheme which is intentionally not open source. WinLink is a commercial protocol with a proprietary format. It's not meant to be monitored.

This proposal is contrary to the spirit of amateur radio by forcing a complex ARRL bandplan concept as FCC law.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote

"You may have a valid concern in regard to semi-automatic Pactor stations, but we would still continue the tradition of voluntary band plans that would tend to cluster like modes together within the regulated segment. Pactor stations can presently legally operate over the entire CW band segment but for the most part they tend to stay away from the low end. PSK31 probably receives the most QRM from Pactor stations and under the proposed regulations would be relieved of this by moving to the 200Hz segment where the Pactor stations will not be permitted."

You're suggesting that PSK operations be moved into the proposed 200 Hz segments? When in your original post you said "If the proposed rules are enacted you will not have to move to a different band segment", had you forgotton about this need to relocate PSK operations? Or did you mean "If the proposed rules are enacted you will not be forced to move to a different band segment, but if you don't move, expect QRM"?

The 200 Hz segments all lie at the bottom of each band, and range in width from 20 to 80 kHz. Is 35 kHz on 40m sufficient for CW, PSK, and the other narrow digital modes seeking escape from Pactor and similar protocols? Is 65 kHz sufficient on 20m?

AA4PB wrote:

"I do agree that semi-automatic operation is a somewhat different animal that, in my opinion, needs some additional restrictions."

If you agree that the current ARRL proposal is flawed, then why are you advocating its adoption?

AA4PB wrote

"It has been around for a long time but didn't create much of a problem because there weren't many of them until recent years. In future years we may be seeing semi-automatic operation of modes other than Pactor, perhaps some of them narrow enough to fit in the 200Hz segment. I think semi-automatic operation is something that needs to be addressed as a separate issue from bandwidth."

When Pactor or similar protocols are used in semi-automatic operation, their inability to detect each other's presence on the same frequency requires that they be spread out across the band; otherwise, they'd QRM each other to death. As you acknowledge above, this has resulted in considerable QRM for PSK operators in the band segments they share.

The ARRL's proposal dramatically expands the range of frequencies available for use by Pactor et al to include all but the bottom few tens of kHz on each band. If this proposal is adopted, the QRM being experienced by PSK operators will be experienced by practically every ham. Only those operating CW or narrow-band digital modes will be protected from this onslaught.

As stated in my original response, there are technical solutions to this problem. Gentlemen's agreements only work between stations operated accordingly. Semi-automatic stations are currently incapable of this behavior; they respond to incoming requests without verifying that the frequency is clear, and they do not respond to "QRL" or "pse QSY" signals. When we have protocols and software that behave like gentlemen, then we can consider a band plan that expands the range for semi-automatic operation. Until then, semi-automatic operation must remain limited. Rather than lobbying for more spectrum, its proponents should focus their energy on improving their protocols and software to the point where peaceful coexistence with other stations -- both human-operated and semi-automatic -- is demonstrable.

The ARRL proposal should thus be rejected for two reasons:

1. It would dramatically increase the scope of unintentional QRM by semi-automatic stations -- to the detriment of most hams

2. It removes the incentive for developers of semi-automatic protocols and software to make improvements that prevent transmissions over ongoing QSOs in *any* mode and that respond to QRL signals

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
You are not looking at it from the FCC's regulatory standpoint. They will be burdened with enforcing this proposal on top of everything else currently in place.
---------------------------

I *am* looking at it from the FCC's regulatory standpoint. They will no longer have to "approve" every new mode that comes along by either rewriting or "bending" the regulations. All you have to do is publicly document it and decide which of the three subbands it belongs in, based on its bandwidth. The FCC no longer needs to be involved at all - less work for them.

 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA1RNE on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

After reading more about the mission statement for WinLink, I may decide to write my own petition to the FCC. From Winlink.org, quote:

"The Winlink 2000 (WL2K) radio-email digital network system is intended to greatly extend the ability of the Amateur Radio to provide a public service to the greater community ****** by linking to the Internet email system.*****

"The emphasis is to accomplish this while providing additional features that are of particular value to amateur users for use in emergency management and everyday use to those who may not otherwise have access to the Internet."

Winlink is merely an extension of the internet via HF. Why on earth would we even consider letting these guys pass automated email from the internet on our bands?

The reference to emergency management is a lot of bull. Remember when Packet came on the seen in the 80's and was supposed to be all the rage? It was great for continuous weather reports or bulletins but that's about it. Emergency traffic must be handle by radio voice communications, not the internet!!!

Who are these guys kidding????


We need this like we need more ham radio broadcasting or other nonsense that keeps a select few "busy" and more satisfied with a hobby that apparently doesn't meet their needs.

This service is about RADIO, not the internet.

With every day that goes by, I am losing respect for the ARRL as they don't have their priorities straight.

To the ARRL: WAKE UP!! This is not the Amateur Internet Service. The Internet was invented already (FYI, not by Al Gore) and is an established communications service.

If you want cheap access to email, call 1-800-NETZERO.

Otherwise, plant your vertical, hook up the coax and pound some brass or speak into the mike.....and keep the 1's and 0's inside your uProcessor or DSP.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N8UZE on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This commentary is rather late don't you think as the FCC has already rejected this proposal.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KE4ZHN on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I agree with KE4MOB. Some amateurs seem to have a hard enough time following the existing rules. If you toss this mess into the fire, all you get is mass confusion and headaches. When some extra`s cant even wire up a microphone or cut a simple dipole for a given band, how can the ARRL expect them to have a clue about bandwidth?
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K4RAF on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
"The FCC no longer needs to be involved at all - less work for them."

That's a fine theory, until the crybabies call to complain about alleged violators. Right now the FCC can choose to ignore violations of a voluntary bandplan but if they fall for this proposal, they will be mandated to enforce Newington's pipedream as Part 97 law.

I trust them to be wiser than that... Simplification is the FCC's desired direction...
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Well, in the 1970's the FCC themselves wanted to change to subbands by bandwidth. The primary resistance to their own proposal was that it would have outlawed DSB AM in the HF bands.

And no, the FCC has not rejected the ARRL's bandwidth proposal. As far as I know the proposal has not even been submitted to the FCC. What you are probably thinking of is the two individuals that submitted a proposal to limit maximum bandwidth in order to put the "hi fi SSB" guys off the air. The FCC did reject that very limited proposal.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA5ZNU on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
K4RAF wrote:
>Right now the FCC can choose to ignore violations of a voluntary bandplan...
Don't you have this backwards? Part 97 specifies where phone can be used, and where images can be transmitted (even, as the article points out, if they are thumbnail photos or QSL card images sent in MFSK or PSK31). The ARRL proposal would allow image to be sent anywhere.

Note that Canada and Mexico have a bandwidth-based system with voluntary band plans, and their RF comes right here...

I am in favor of some kind of regulation change that allows these US hams to things such as sending images as digital data in QSOs, but I'm opposed to the entrenchment of the HF packet forwarding networks proposed by the Ad Hoc Digital Subcommittee.

I hope that the amateur community can come together to get a loosening of the Part 97 regulations and a strengthening of the ham-maintained band plans.

Perhaps the VEC model would be more appropriate, where the FCC Part 97 rules specify some things, and then a VEC-style organization is left with task of creating a binding band plan.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
While I at this point can see and appreciate Pro/Con arguments from nearly all heard from on this thread, I would add these points:

1) It is good to have a discussion of bandwidth relative to "mode". Many Ham's these days do not even realize they are using FM on 29.6 MHz, they merely discovered that they could not talk to anyone on the frequency until they hit the "FM" button.

2) A conceptual understanding of bandwidth usage for a given mode is an excellent bit (pun intended) of knowledge to have. Many Ham's do not realize that they are typically using 16 KHz or more of spectrum on VHF, and some think they can do this on HF -- its all FM right? Even the idea that someone operating iCW at around 35 Words per Minute (WPM) is using more bandwidth than someone poking along at 5 WPM is a good thing to understand.

3) These are all not so much "Modes" as protocols. In fact, iCW is really the only truly digital mode that I am aware of! Katy bar the door if someone actually ever turns on and off a carrier at 56KB or faster (or even much slower)!

I too suspect that the meat of this present argument has more to do with someone's personal agenda of an goal that they want to accomplish, more than it does with technical standards. We should all be aware of how much spectrum we are using for any given mode. I also agree with those who see the experimentation to establish these standards better done on SHF frequencies. We also need to be aware of and chronicle how much the noise floor will be increased by an increasing influx of non-linear modes.<br

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K5UJ on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
<<<Again, I think AM is "grandfathered" because it has been around for a long time and there are people still using it.>>>

Other modes have been around for a long time and are still used but that does not justify any kind of special treatment for them. I have no problem with the operation of AM--personally it doesn't make much sense to me but once in a blue moon i will operate it--however if running AM floats someone's boat then fine. But claiming legacy alone as a reason for special treatment doesn't wash.

<<<I don't think we want to open things up and permit other modes taking up 9KHz of HF spectrum.>>>

Why? occupied space is occupied space regardless of what's being transmitted. If we have enough room to allow for the use of 9 KHz to redundantly xmit the audio range of 4.5 khz, we surely must be able to afford to use some space for some 4.5 to 6 khz ssb, which will transmit only one audio signal, with no heterodyning carrier.

<<<An exception to the 3KHz maximum was made for AM because to do otherwise would put the AM stations off the air.>>>

Fine. Then limit AM to 6 KHz, the audio equal for the proposed SSB limit. If SSB is limited to 3 KHz, then there is absolutely no justification for AM going any wider than 6. Anything wider is a double standard.
However, allowing 6 khz for the twice transmission of 3 khz of audio, when that space could be used for the transmission of 4.5 to 6 khz of ssb much more efficiently is idiotic. I am not advocating the xmission of wide ssb all the time by everyone, anymore than i am advocating the xmission of AM by everyone. However, if on a quiet band where there is room, some hams want to go wider for a better ragchew sound and are responsible about it, then that option should be available in the self-regulatory spirit of the ARS. The idea that only AM should be accorded this option is incredibly arrogant. Expecting every supposed problem to be legislated away by the FCC is a slippery slope. For one thing, all the guys running 4 khz ssb will simply go into 9khz AM. You think you have a problem now...just wait.

<<<While AM is inefficient, there aren't so many AM stations that it causes many problems. It would be a different story however if you made 9KHz universal and someday ended up with a band full of 9KHz wide signals.>>>

This is justification of a bandwidth based on number of users. That's a specious argument. If we follow this to its logical conclusion, a bandwidth of 20 KHz for a faster scan rate SSTV would be okay if only a few hams did it. If I and only one other guy ran 100 KHz wide data on 40 meters it would be okay because only two hams were running it. If a few of my pals and I decided to run 20 KHz wide AM (which would sound really good by the way) it would be okay because only 4 or 5 of us were operating that way. Clearly, tying numbers of users with bandwidth is ridiculous. Further, numbers of users is always in flux, and it is my understanding that the number of hams getting into AM is increasing.
 
A BETTER BANDWIDTH-BASED PLAN  
by KQ6XA on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
A BETTER BANDWIDTH-BASED PLAN:
http://www.qsl.net/kq6xa/freqplan

A Bandwidth-Based Frequency Plan
for the High Frequency Bands of the Amateur Radio Service in USA

Recent advancements in radio technology and licensing structure mean amateurs desperately need a better frequency plan in the USA.

We Need A Bandwidth-Based Frequency Plan for the next decade of Amateur Radio... a plan that is *completely Mode-Independent*

Emission Bandwidths for HF Expansion
By the use of several standard emission bandwidths: 500Hz, 3kHz, and 10kHz, we can fit many more QSOs into our HF bands. Modern HF radios with brickwall filters enable us to fit more signals in the same band. Under the thumb of our olde 20th century mode-based frequency bands, many parts of our HF bands are dormant, while other parts of the same band are packed to the brim. It is not efficient, and we need to make use of all the available spectrum to both accommodate the traffic and to distribute activity so that amateurs maintain valuable spectrum. Use it or lose it. By allowing any mode with <500Hz bandwidth throughout the entire band, and allowing 80% of the band to be used by <3kHz bandwidth signals, we not only expand within our useful spectrum, but we increase our ability to pioneer new modulation methods and communicate internationally. By devoting parts of our largest and least-used HF bands to 10kHz bandwidth, we make space for experimental signal types, wideband SSB, AM, FM, digital voice, time-division-multiplex, wideband digital voice, OFDM, email, high resolution images, high definition television, and simultaneous multimedia.

Here is the chart for the BETTER BANDWIDTH-BASED PLAN:
http://www.qsl.net/kq6xa/freqplan/#chart











.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
If anything is ever going to change in the U.S. to allow development without the restictive rules someone is going to have to give up something. The AMers want their 9KHz. If the AMers get 9KHz then I want 9KHz for my HI FI SSB. Nobody wants to move. Everybody is worried that some other mode might move in on their turf. So everything will stay as it is and new development work will continue to be done in other parts of the world where they aren't encombered with 30 year old regulations. Yes, lets ban all the development work to SHF where it won't disturb anyone.

Amazing :-)
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Making available the small segments required to facilitate development and innovation could likely be accomplished with little fanfare.

What's incited the large negative response to the ARRL's proposal is that it completely opens the bands before we have the protocols and software capable of peacefully coexisting with current users. Not only does this risk widespread QRM, it reduces the incentive to engineer protocols and software capable of coexistence.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA0LYK on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
For those of you who think the proposed 3 khz maximum bandwidth is no problem for SSB either analog or digital. All the comments I see here seem to think digital modes are something different than analog SSB. Folks, if you use the microphone input as the entry point to your transmitter and have SSB selected, you are transmitting SSB. I don't care if it is an analog voice signal from a microphone or an analog signal from a modem/sound card with discreet tones to represent a digital signal.

Let me point out two things,

1) The reference to not having to measure your bandwidth is only in the ARRL's text explanation. The ARRL has not proposed any Rule 97.XXX that specifically states this. Consequently, the proposed regulation changes will NOT include this statement.

2) The proposed rule 97.305 states that the MAXIMUM bandwidth for certain frequency partions will be 3 khz. How will this be measured? Will it be the -26 db bandwidth points as specified for AM and ISB? I expect that it will. Is there any exceptions for digital modes vs analog modes? I don't see any.

Now when I break into your conversation and ask you to quit transmitting with your Kenwood 870, Icom 718, or Ten Tec Omni VI because it is exceeding the 3 khz maximum bandwidth what will you say? I will respond that the ARRL expanded tests show that the absolute best IMD spurs at 4.5 khz exceed -26 db and therefore your rig, unless modified, cannot be legal. Will you have the spectrum analyzer pictures to show that your specific rig does better than the one the ARRL tested?

Rather than specify a maximum bandwidth in FCC Rules, I think a more generous, less specific way of defining the expected bandwidths needs to be found.

As I said in my opening remark, if you think a Pactor II modem connected to the microphone input generates only a 500 Hz wide RF signal on all transmitters, or an AOR digital voice modem connected the same only generates a 2600 hz wide RF signal I would be pleased if someone could provide a web page with spectrum analyzer pictures that prove this!

For those who are mixing content, modes, and protocols, you need to step back and draw some block diagrams of how the SYSTEM works. I do believe some changes need to be made in the FCC regulations, but we need to be a little more technical in defining content vs protocols and modes vs protocols, etc.

Thanks,

Jim
WA0LYK
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W6TH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!


If the FCC wants this done , then the ARRL will push for it. Anything to make a dollar.

The ARRL is the favorite of the FCC to push this crap on us. The FCC is the "sponser" for the ARRL. Hey FCC, let us know what you want and we will get it for you as who is better to snow these chaps; that is what we have always been here for.

Look FCC what we have already done for you and now we can do much more; cw and dumbing down was only the starter as we can go gun-ho.

Watch your back. Gee I hate to tell you so; again, again and again.

.: W6TH
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Very good points Jim!

I am very dubious of any potentially wide (non-linear) modes OR PROTOCOLS on the HF spectrum! Let us develop standards on bands of needed activity, that are wide enough to allow for discrepancies.

I would suggest that this not be done on bands lower than 3 cM and up. There may be an argument to also use 5.6 GHz but, the idea is, lets get these operations up where they harm nothing, and we can learn how to best coordinate them.

We also need to assess a comprehensive noise floor vs. occupancy for these respective "modes". This can only effectively be done on bands where skip or actually 'bounces' can be tracked. This makes for a representative sampling population that fits all of these requirements.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
If the FCC wants this done , then the ARRL will push for it
-------------------------------------------------

Yes - notice how the ARRL jumped right in and supported the FCC's push for BPL. I'll bet those ARRL guys are on the government payroll :-)
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9DG on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
OK, so how about just leaving the band segment definitions for CW, SSB, FM, and AM operation exactly as they are now. And then for everything else apply the new "subbands by bandwidth" regulation. Advantages are:

1. Everybody on these "traditional" modes can continue to operate in the exact same way and places that they always have. As an added benefit they won't even have to make any effort to learn anything new about anything, fits right in with those lifetime licenses that everybody has.

2. The FCC won't have to be bothered with legality questions every time a group of hams wants to experiment with a new mode of some kind or another.

So those who want to experiment with new modes, be it digital or otherwise, can then do so without the big question of "is it legal" hanging over their heads. And those with no aspirations or motivations for anything beyond their current favorite mode(s) can continue about their merry way.

For what it’s worth unattended automated station operation is a completely separate issue. It shouldn't even be part of the regulation by bandwidth proposal. That's a topic all of its own for another article.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W6TH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!


The ARRL know the BPL won't go through, but are putting on a very good act/show, no matter how you look at it.


.:
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WI4CW on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
One word for this particular idea: NO!!
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I suspect that some varient of this idea will go through. The concept is not bad, only the special interest 'wording'.

As a technological community we need to get our act together! It's like the statement, "work the problem people". I would say, "know your bandwidth people, and work it appropriately."
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by RADIOBOB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Got an idea.

No rules, no test, no license, no band rules.

Work what ever mode you want, where ever you like.

How many of you REALLY, care ??
How many of you REALLY, care ??

Problems with all these ideas, is that most people are favoring something that they are most fond of, and STAND TO GET SOME PERSONAL GAIN FROM THE INCEPTION OF THEIR CONCEPT. Before you, the ARRL, or some other pundit, write wonderful prose about the virtues of your new found plan to save the ham radio from it’s own destruction, WALK IN THE OTHER PERSONS SHOES. Have you really thought out how your ideas will affect all users ??? Do you even care.

Several of our best bands are even now, to small, or populated with commercial stations. How much can you change them.

As a side bar:

Just as federal intervention will slowly erode the hobby of amateur radio, so will society, local, national, and “rights” groups, devour your other hobbies. You name the hobby, take a long hard look, and you will see how it is becoming harder to peruse it. Rules, rules, and more rules. Rules for the sake of someone saying they made a rule.

Amateur radios worst enemies, HAMS. Don’t like the rules, don’t follow the rules, fight between each other in ways that is a joke to the non amateur world.

Stand divided and in a few years the hobby will be legislated into history.

Don’t like the ARRL. Fine. But it’s the only ORGANIZED, group to represent us. How well they do that IS OF SOME question. The ARRL works for you. Instead of boycotting it, and bashing it, why don’t you join ( in a huge mass of people ), and TELL THEM WHAT YOU WANT DONE. Vote. Become active in the ARRL, direct the change you want.

If 100,000 new, determined hams joined the ARRL, with the same mind set, and voted all the same, change would come.

If 300,000 hams wrote the FCC and all their local / federal, politicians, change would come.

NOTICE I said “wrote”.

E-MAILS FALL ON DEAF EARS, for the most part. E-mail to your local politician treated for the most part, at a level just above spam. Meaning that it gets very little attention. Bag after bag of mail on the same topic will get noticed.

If you don’t start working together, then no one will have to worry about “band plans”.

By the way ???? what has E-ham done for ham radio on the political front. How much assistance, training, and service to local communities has E-ham provided. Don’t like the ARRL ??? Then who else will step up to the plate.

As I said a “sidebar”.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
RADIOBOB,

1st, whats your callsign?

2nd, I too often feel as you do, and I think about driving the wrong way on freeways etc.

Just kidding with you!

I think that the overall scope of the statements in this thread have been quite good! Have you read them all?
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KB1IVU on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm pumped up. Let's all us smelly, overweight, dressed in stained shirts with the jeans hanging down with the plummer's crack, hotdog and large Coke in each hand march on Washington DC and get it on with government. We can make it happen!!! Keep hope alive!!!
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
C'mon, give the guy a break! He may have some lucid points? He just needs to calm down a bit, and relate them in detail.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KB1IVU on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
******The Million Ham March*******
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KY1V on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Let's look at the 20 meter phone sub band for a moment.

Voice sub band 14.150 ~ 14.350

14.332 YL System Emergency Net
14.330 Ten-Tec Net
14.315 Pacific Island Net
14.307 International Recreational Vehicle Service Net
14.305 14305 DX Net
14.263 The Collins Collectors Association Net
14.275 K1MAN Broadcasting
14.265 Naturist Amateur Radio Club [NUDE Club]
14.250 Arabian Nights Net
14.248 BRYLA (PY-YLs Net)
14.247 247 DX Net
14.245 Family Hour
14.245 Oceania DX Group
14.243 European DX Net
14.235 Digital File Transfer
14.230 SSTV
14.226 Southern Cross DX Net
14.225 Band Edge for Generals
14.222 Brazil DX Net
14.222 YL Pacific DX Net
14.222 YL Triple Two
14.222 HI-DX
14.205 BROADCAST ENGINEERS CHAPTER
14.200 DX Window
14.183 ANZA (VK, ZL & Africa)
14.181 The Jay, Seymour and Friends Show ~ Nightly
14.178 SSB Hi-Fi Channel
14.176 W6HLH's Frequency + or - just ask him!
14.173 Canada DX Net
14.165 Friendly Caribbean Net

These are but a few of the nets and "designated frequencies" on the 20 meter voice sub band that I was able to obtain in less than 5 minutes. There are hundreds more. We have all run into them at some time or another.

Do you think we need more or less specified frequency allocation?

Do you think we need more or less regulation?

This shows that every ham has an agenda and none care about yours or mine. It is a very selfish world we live in.

If you ask me, what we need is more respect. When someone comes up with a way to enforce mutual respect, that person will be my hero!

This should be added to the Amateur Code...

"If the frequency you want to use is already in use at the time you want to use it, find another frequency, even if you have used that frequency for the last decade without interference. If your friends are too lazy [or stupid] to find you, make new friends. If propagation brings you and another amateur together, yield the frequency to the other amateur. Give other amateurs room to operate without crowding them. If your 59++, turn off your amplifier to make room for someone to use an adjacent frequency. If you can't find a place to operate, call someone whom already has a clear frequency, he may relinquish it to you when he is done, otherwise, find another band, wait for an opening or find something else to do, like telling your wife, kids, mother, father or friend that you love them."

Once EVERYONE practices this code, we will all get along perfectly no matter what mode or bandwidth we choose to utilize!

Happy new year to you all. I wish you prosperity and good health.

David ~ KY1V
2004 Amateur of the Year
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Wow, KY1V I'm impressed! Seriously.

I will have to check out that Broadcast Engineers Net, it might even present a reason to up-grade.

Anyway, people will do what seems fair. Have you not found that to be the case? In my experience, anytime they don't do this, they are just ignorant of the 'going's on'.

Nobody wants their parade rained on, because, if they rain on someone, somebody is going to rain back! People generally want to 'get along'!

Were you serious about that 2004 thing?
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by RADIOBOB on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
WA6BFH - Thanks for the comments. No I don’t drive the wrong way on freeways, but have been know to drive a 22 foot pick up on the sidewalks of New York.

KB1IVU - See your new call is W1 DUD. I think that says it all. My comments were not aimed at “taking on” the govn’t.

The problems / fights / flames / bickering / complaints / etc…. we see in ham radio, are to some degree rooted / common, in most / all, of our everyday life. Pick the topic, any topic, more people yap about ----------- ( fill in the blank ), than actual do something about it. More people read E-ham and post comments, than actually pen a letter to the ARRL / Congressman / Senator, or who ever.

Special interest groups can get a lot accomplished, but only with a united front. The people who represent these special interest groups get their direction and set of goals, from the community ( the members ), that they serve. Ham radio does not really have that. The ARRL is trying, but is misled. Why. Because more people complain about the ARRL, than join, and voice their opinion. KB1IVU, that’s where I was going.


Life has now become like a Burger King Ad, “Have it your way”. Everyone wants it “their” way. Well it just won’t work like that forever.

Band Plans ??? THE FCC IS NOT WORRIED ABOUT BAND PLANS, and at this point in time hams need not be either.

Band Space, spectrum, ( is important ), and is getting to be very scarce and valuable. It can, and will be sold for top dollar by the government. This is what ham radios biggest challenge is. You are at the government mercy. They can, if they wish, legislate you right out of existence. Working as a cohesive group, a lot can get done, KB1IVU, I did not say “marching”.

Back to band plans:

Ok, lets say we have this new mode “ hyper babble “. It’s new technology, not to commonly used, but it is available to use. It may ( key word here is may ), someday be much improved and become popular. But ….. some people now feel like it needs it’s own “spot / place, in the band / bands. OK, fine. How many KC/ Cycles etc … lets carve out a block, carve out a section of band just for “ hyper babble “. Now lets get to real life. It’s a busy day / nite / weekend on 75 / 40 / 20 meters, throw in a contest now and then ( by the way there are well over 300 contest each year ), and what do we have.

Well lots of other people are wanting “enjoy” their hobby, but gosh, its so jammed up with people that it’s not much fun. Now some of these people are tuning down the band / bands, and bingo. There is this whole section of band not being used. Why. Because there just are not a lot of “ hyper babble “ stations on the air, or even really set up for use, but it has its own “band” plan. Maybe I might just try to use it. No, it’s “special” place for ……….

Everyone has their own agenda.

Mine. I would like the whole planet to get with the same plan. That would help for starters. Sorry to all of you DX stations. It gets a might frustrating to hear just a few stations using 50 kc of 20 meters, that we can’t ( for starters ). I would like to have a bit more space for RTTY and PSK on 20 meters. Get rid of commercial stations on 40 meters. For Pete’s sake. How much space does the world need of SHORT WAVE broadcast. Hasn’t long range overseas broadcast about outlived it’s real goal. To keep overseas nationals abreast of their homelands news.

Band Plans. Is it time to change. Not yet. Remember. Everyone has their own personal reason to want ???
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K3ZE on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
While I feel that the ARRL is doing a good job with the BPL issue, I don't agree with the proposed rules change for "Subbands by Bandwith". The ARRL's Ad Hoc committee has made a proposal and as such, should be decided on by the entire membership before it is proposed to the FCC. Whether you are in favor or opposed, write Jim Haynie and or your Section Manager, Division Director, et al, and express your views.

Personally, while I see some small merit in the proposal, I see more of a negative impact overall because of the facts that have been brought up here on the eHam forum and other Amateur Radio sources, especially the issue of the QRM that it could cause to other modes. Keep in mind that the Ad Hoc committee is, after all, a special interest group that's championing their own issue because they think it's the right thing to do. In any case, I would sincerely hope that the ARRL bows to the wishes and wants of the majority of Hams (both members and non-members) and doesn't let a very small tail wag the very big dog.

73 Al K3ZE
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
RadioBob, You should not get frustrated by such events. They do fall within the Yin and Yan of lifes experience, and I don't mean that to sound mystical or wierd. Its just that S$&t happens!

Your points are really quite right though! Thats why folks need to understand what wavelength they are on, the time of day, and also even how much spectrum they are using.

I had a friend call me on 2 Meters the other day. He asked, lets try 20 Meters? I said, since we know we can commuincate simplex on 'Direct Wave' 2 Meters, why should we go to 20 Meters, and potentially, Pee in someone else's Wheaties?
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Al, I spent about 9 years as a Technical Advisor to the league. One time, on the issue of 'Spread Spectrum', I asked my Divisions Vice Director (who knew a hell of a lot more than the in-office Director) "but, what about the noise floor and the linear modes?" He said, "what do you mean?"

Don't count on the ARRL to know their arm, from their elbow, to a hole in the ground!
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by K3ZE on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I'm glad to see that this topic was brought up for debate. Whether you're for or against it, I really think that it needs further discussion.

Everyone have a healthy, happy and properous New Year.

73 Al K3ZE
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9LYA on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
N8UZE
You are confussed ... The FCC has not rejected THIS proposal and teh FCC has not been given this proposal to reject...

Sorry to bust your bubble..

73 jerry
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WR8D on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Someone up the thread mentioned "mode wars". This has been going on for the last 21 years already. Am stations on 3880-3885 running commercial broadcast stations converted to amateur freq's. Power levels far in excess of 1.5 kw. Sit around and listen some time. A pair of 4-1000's modulated by another pair. They splatter from 3885 down to 3865 some weekends. Gee what happened to the gentlemans agreement. Another thing since some have mentioned the am mode. There is some big money pushing for the band changes just for am operations alone, "seriously". To make matters worse now the wideband ssb audio guys can buy a cb echo box and they splatter almost as bad as the am transmitters. My bottom line here is, it ain't working now and it sure as hell ain't gonna work any better to mess with bandwidths and freq's. The am power level needs to be cut to about a 100 watt 100% modulated carrier, not the 375 watt carrier. The wide splatter band ssb folks need to go over to 11 meters and do their echo crap there with those folks. Gee now thats half the problem fixed already, no money has changed hands, no feelings hurt, just the good ole amateur practice put into action that "some" of us were taught.

Happy New Year!
WR8D
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WB5OAU on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
There's no need to micromanage frequency and mode.

If there's QRM, turn the dial....that's what it's there for.

John K5MO
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA6BFH on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
On some frequencies, bands, and modes -- you just can't spin the dial! In such places we have to realize that there are other things (potentialy) going on on that frequency that we might not hear. I'm thinking of places like:

All the satelite sub-bands,

Digital mode frequencies,

Remote Base Station (Auxilliary Links),

and places like the FM simplex frequencies, and 10 Meter repeaters.

Places and activities like that, not to mention 6 Meter repeater/RC radio controlled models (how would you like to be the guy that crashed another Ham's scale model of the "Spruce Goose")! He only had a few thousand Dollars tied up in it, as well as a couple hundred hours of his time!

Sometimes, we have to be gentlemen!
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
re "If there's QRM, turn the dial....that's what it's there for."

Yes, and no.

Yes, if you are QRM'd, you should QSY. Whining on the frequency, intentionally QRMing the QRMer, or any other form of tantrum are inexcusable unless your age is 3 or less.

No, universal adoption of "turn the other cheek" would not render the ARRL's proposal acceptable. Just because operators are reacting maturely to unintentional QRM is not justification for adopting a policy that would dramatically increase the rate at which such QRM occurs.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote

"You may have a valid concern in regard to semi-automatic Pactor stations, but we would still continue the tradition of voluntary band plans that would tend to cluster like modes together within the regulated segment. Pactor stations can presently legally operate over the entire CW band segment but for the most part they tend to stay away from the low end. PSK31 probably receives the most QRM from Pactor stations and under the proposed regulations would be relieved of this by moving to the 200Hz segment where the Pactor stations will not be permitted."

You're suggesting that PSK operations be moved into the proposed 200 Hz segments? When in your original post you said "If the proposed rules are enacted you will not have to move to a different band segment", had you forgotton about this need to relocate PSK operations? Or did you mean "If the proposed rules are enacted you will not be forced to move to a different band segment, but if you don't move, expect QRM"?

The 200 Hz segments all lie at the bottom of each band, and range in width from 20 to 80 kHz. Is 35 kHz on 40m sufficient for CW, PSK, and the other narrow digital modes seeking escape from Pactor and similar protocols? Is 65 kHz sufficient on 20m?

AA4PB wrote:

"I do agree that semi-automatic operation is a somewhat different animal that, in my opinion, needs some additional restrictions."

If you agree that the current ARRL proposal is flawed, then why are you advocating its adoption?

AA4PB wrote

"It has been around for a long time but didn't create much of a problem because there weren't many of them until recent years. In future years we may be seeing semi-automatic operation of modes other than Pactor, perhaps some of them narrow enough to fit in the 200Hz segment. I think semi-automatic operation is something that needs to be addressed as a separate issue from bandwidth."

When Pactor or similar protocols are used in semi-automatic operation, their inability to detect each other's presence on the same frequency requires that they be spread out across the band; otherwise, they'd QRM each other to death. As you acknowledge above, this has resulted in considerable QRM for PSK operators in the band segments they share.

The ARRL's proposal dramatically expands the range of frequencies available for use by Pactor et al to include all but the bottom few tens of kHz on each band. If this proposal is adopted, the QRM being experienced by PSK operators will be experienced by practically every ham. Only those operating CW or narrow-band digital modes will be protected from this onslaught.

As stated in my original response, there are technical solutions to this problem. Gentlemen's agreements only work between stations operated accordingly. Semi-automatic stations are currently incapable of this behavior; they respond to incoming requests without verifying that the frequency is clear, and they do not respond to "QRL" or "pse QSY" signals. When we have protocols and software that behave like gentlemen, then we can consider a band plan that expands the range for semi-automatic operation. Until then, semi-automatic operation must remain limited. Rather than lobbying for more spectrum, its proponents should focus their energy on improving their protocols and software to the point where peaceful coexistence with other stations -- both human-operated and semi-automatic -- is demonstrable.

The ARRL proposal should thus be rejected for two reasons:

1. It would dramatically increase the scope of unintentional QRM by semi-automatic stations -- to the detriment of most hams

2. It removes the incentive for developers of semi-automatic protocols and software to make improvements that prevent transmissions over ongoing QSOs in *any* mode and that respond to QRL signals

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W6TH on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Bandwidth by the Subbands?
-----------------------------
Isn't this the correct wording?
Bandwidth by the Subbands.
-----------------------------

Seems like we are on the way to limiting bandwidth. It will not work and neither will the new world order or love for the human race. We can't get along.

What we now want is closer contact and better understanding between individuals and communities all over the earth, and the elimination of egoism and pride which is always prone to plunge the world into primeval barbarism and strife... Peace can only come as a natural consequence of universal enlightenment...''

.:W6th.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KY1V on December 30, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Just in case my previous post was not clear, which it probably wasn't, I am against this proposal.

I am not in favor of changes to current bandwidth rules, restructuring sub bands nor moving current modes in any HF spectrum, except perhaps SSTV and File Transfer (protocols, not modes) for which I have always thought belong in the digital sub bands.

I am also not in favor of permitting unattended, automatic or semi-automatic transmission or retransmission of any information within the HF bands. I am certainly not in favor of sending email over ham radio so that a very few hams that do not wish to pay for a simple dial up connection can access the Internet email system. This is a bad idea.

I am in favor of experimentation, however, I do not believe it is in the best interest of amateur radio to permit any ham to experiment with any mode, protocol or bandwidth for which one sees fit without a collective review of the consequences of those actions or providing a specified band and segment appropriate for such experimentation in an area that will not interfere with existing popular communications.

Please note [existing popular communications].

I would be in favor of permitting experimentation of any mode, protocol or bandwidth in a specified band segment, providing that segment is designated for such experimentation. In other words, if we need to give up a small chunk of real estate for experimentation, that would be better then permitting any experimentation in any band segment without prior authorization or restructuring current band segments based on bandwidth.

Perhaps I am just rambling and don't fully understand the current proposal, but based on what I have read about this subject, this is my current position.

I do intend to keep an open mind, but I am not open to having experimentation that causes intentional or unintentional interference particularly when such transmissions are made without a control operator ready and able to cease such transmissions when necessary.

Whatever happens, I do not think we should permit wider bandwidth modes/protocols on HF. Experimentation with wide bandwidths should take place in spectrum that isn't crowded, like 29mHz and up. There is plenty of real estate in UHF and above and no one has shown me any valid justification that HF is necessary to do such experimentation.

I am an ARRL member and my section manager will be made aware of my position on this usbject. If you are a member, you should be certain your section manager knows your opinion and if you are not a member I encourage you to contact the ARRL anyway. Let them know how you feel. It is your hobby, not theirs.

David ~ KY1V
"putting on my full body flame suit"
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, I mean that no one will be "forced" to move. The PSK31 guys are experiencing interferrence from Pactor stations now. Under the proposal they would have the "option" of moving to the 200Hz segment with the other narrow modes and get away from the wider bandwidth Pactor stations. The proposal isn't going to increase their QRM and force them to move.

I'm not saying that the proposal is perfect and that no improvements can be made. The ARRL has asked for input from the general membership. Several people have posted valid concerns and I would hope that they have communicated them to the ARRL. Perhaps it is possible to alter the proposal to address some of these. Bonnie, for example, has taken the time to make up an alternate proposal which is also good.

What I think we need is valid, well thought out discussion to arrive at the best way to accomodate new modes. First however you have to arrive at the place where you realize that the present system is broken and needs fixing (the postings here seem to indicate that the majority of people don't). That may not be readily apparent if you only operate traditional SSB and CW. If you operate some of the new digital modes or spend time trying to glean what is legal from the present regulations, you soon realize that it is indeed "broken".

For those who think that subbands by bandwidth can't possibly work, I ask how is it working in other countries that use that method now. Why is it that we think the U.S. hams can't be trusted to figure out in which band segment their mode of choice belongs? Are the hams in other countries the only ones that can be trusted to develop and use new modes?

I predict that if we in the U.S. keep things as they are, in several years our SSB receivers will be hearing the sounds of stations in other countries sending multimedia (voice, pictures, data files, etc) interchangeably on a single frequency while we plead with the FCC to bend some more rules to let us in on it. Too bad we can't get together to change the rules now so that at least some of this new technology development can take place in the U.S.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote

"Dave, I mean that no one will be "forced" to move. The PSK31 guys are experiencing interferrence from Pactor stations now. Under the proposal they would have the "option" of moving to the 200Hz segment with the other narrow modes and get away from the wider bandwidth Pactor stations. The proposal isn't going to increase their QRM and force them to move."

I note you didn't respond to my question about the 200 Hz allocations being sufficient to accomodate CW and the narrow band digital modes. If the ARRL proposal is adopted and the PSK31 guys move down into the 200 Hz segments, my prediction is that they will suffer as much QRM from CW -- particularly QRO CW -- as they do today from Pactor.

AA4PB wrote

"I'm not saying that the proposal is perfect and that no improvements can be made."

The problem with the ARRL proposal is not that it contains minor imperfections. If implemented, it will increase unintentional QRM across all of our bands, making the hobby far less enjoyable for everyone.

AA4PB wrote

"The ARRL has asked for input from the general membership. Several people have posted valid concerns and I would hope that they have communicated them to the ARRL. Perhaps it is possible to alter the proposal to address some of these. Bonnie, for example, has taken the time to make up an alternate proposal which is also good."

I am an ARRL member, and communicated the concerns I've been expressing here to the ARRL within a few days of the release of their proposal. I have received no response.

AA4PB wrote

"What I think we need is valid, well thought out discussion to arrive at the best way to accomodate new modes. First however you have to arrive at the place where you realize that the present system is broken and needs fixing (the postings here seem to indicate that the majority of people don't). That may not be readily apparent if you only operate traditional SSB and CW. If you operate some of the new digital modes or spend time trying to glean what is legal from the present regulations, you soon realize that it is indeed "broken"."

I agree that the current scheme is broken: it allows semi-automatic operation using protocols and software that call over existing QSOs, and that do not recognize QRL signals. The ARRL proposal presumes that these protocols and software cannot be further improved, and therefore seeks to reduce QRM by re-arranging the band plan. Their proposed re-arrangement is suboptimal because it allows semi-automatic stations running Pactor et al to inadvertently QRM practically everyone, rather than just the PSK31, MFSK, and RTTY operators. As long as semi-automatic stations are permitted to use protocols insensitive to ongoing QSOs, no re-arrangement will mitigate the unintentional QRM problem.

I do not advocate the banning of semi-automatic operation from HF bands. I believe its utility has already been demonstrated, but its current level of sophistication is insufficient for widespread use. These protocols and software applications can be improved to he point where they are no less polite than gentlemanly human operators. As I said in a previous post, the proponents of semiautomatic HF operation should focus on implementing these improvements, rather than prematurely lobbying for increased frequency allocations. We should hold all stations to the same standard of polite behavior.

AA4PB wrote

"I predict that if we in the U.S. keep things as they are, in several years our SSB receivers will be hearing the sounds of stations in other countries sending multimedia (voice, pictures, data files, etc) interchangeably on a single frequency while we plead with the FCC to bend some more rules to let us in on it. Too bad we can't get together to change the rules now so that at least some of this new technology development can take place in the U.S."

By changing the rules as the ARRL proposes, you eliminate the incentive to improve digital protocols and software to the point where they can coexist with current ham band users. We have limited HF spectrum, and the technologies we employ had best be conceived with conservation in mind. Lowering our technical standards is the *last* thing we should do.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
I note you didn't respond to my question about the 200 Hz allocations being sufficient to accomodate CW and the narrow band digital modes
-------------------------------------------------
Let's take 20M as an example since that's where the majority of PSK31 activity is located. The 200Hz subband is 14.000 to 14.065 Mhz or 65 Khz wide. Most PSK31 operations stay in a 3Khz slice where they can all be seen on the waterfall. So they use 3/65 or less than 5% of the total subband, leaving 95% for CW and the few other narrow band modes. I think its plenty of space for CW and other narrow digital modes.

Personally, I think that PSK31 and CW can coexist much better than PSK31 and Pactor, precisely because they are of a more similar bandwidth.

I agree with you about the semi-automatic operation but I think is is a separate issue from the subband thing (although perhaps it should be addressed in parallel). I expect it is not going to be a simple thing to make Pactor modems recognize activity by all of the other modes and at the same time not inhibit transmissions due to noise, static crashes, etc. I would propose a band plan (not written into the rules because that would make it difficult to change in the future) that would provide a limited area in the mid and wide subbands for automatic activity of any sort. While Pactor stations can't easily recognize other modes, they can easily recognize activity by other Pactor stations on the same frequency. So, instead of spreading them out over the entire subband, restrict them to a narrower slice. They will coexist together okay and others will know that if you operate in that area you are likely to get clobbered by a semi-automatic station.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"Let's take 20M as an example since that's where the majority of PSK31 activity is located. The 200Hz subband is 14.000 to 14.065 Mhz or 65 Khz wide. Most PSK31 operations stay in a 3Khz slice where they can all be seen on the waterfall. So they use 3/65 or less than 5% of the total subband, leaving 95% for CW and the few other narrow band modes. I think its plenty of space for CW and other narrow digital modes."

PSK operation is common on all bands, varying with the day/night cycle, the sunspot cycle, and propagation. During a CW contest weekend, the 65 kHz segment at the bottom of 20m will be oversubscribed. Far worse will be the proposed 35 kHz segment on 40m.

AA4PB wrote:

"Personally, I think that PSK31 and CW can coexist much better than PSK31 and Pactor, precisely because they are of a more similar bandwidth."

While PSK31 signals are themselves narrow, most PSK31 operators are running their receivers with a 3 kHz bandwidth for panoramic reception. A couple of strong CW signals will effectively wipe out the entire band for many PSK operators.

AA4PB wrote:

"I agree with you about the semi-automatic operation but I think is is a separate issue from the subband thing (although perhaps it should be addressed in parallel)."

Then you should withdraw your support of the ARRL proposal until its modified to not expand the ability of semi-automatic stations to generate inadvertent QRM. As long as the ARRL proposal has this effect, semi-automatic operation cannot be treated as a separate issue.

AA4PB wrote:

"I expect it is not going to be a simple thing to make Pactor modems recognize activity by all of the other modes and at the same time not inhibit transmissions due to noise, static crashes, etc."

We should not limit our technical goals to "simple things". As the current crop of soundcard-based digital mode software demonstrates, we can analyze frequency and phase in real-time on home PCs. Distinguishing information-bearing QSOs from QRM and QRN will require heuristics as well as algorithms. It doesn't have to be simple, it need only be feasible.

AA4PB wrote:

"I would propose a band plan (not written into the rules because that would make it difficult to change in the future) that would provide a limited area in the mid and wide subbands for automatic activity of any sort. While Pactor stations can't easily recognize other modes, they can easily recognize activity by other Pactor stations on the same frequency. So, instead of spreading them out over the entire subband, restrict them to a narrower slice. They will coexist together okay and others will know that if you operate in that area you are likely to get clobbered by a semi-automatic station."

Furthermore, by confining semi-automatic stations to a relatively narrow segment, you incentivize the developers of semi-automatic station software to coexist with each other -- a first step towards coexisting with everyone else.

That's a much more sensible proposal than the one you began this thread by endorsing.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W8MW on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
This petition might be the most poorly conceived plan ever to come out of Newington or the previous address in Hartford. It is loaded with fundamental flaws and unchallenged presumptions that prove a distinct lack of balanced judgment went into it.

Some believe the future of amateur radio depends on its ability to function like a wired data network. That’s a philosophy and not a fact. In any case, the amateur community is diverse enough to support all sorts of operating preferences and personal beliefs. But the petition is heavily biased toward data exchange, giving one group cart blanche no matter what the consequences are to everyone else.

Fundamental Flaw: The petition is brought to us courtesy of an ad hoc committee of digital “experts”. Guaranteed, a lot of what’s in it would have been shot down had there been a broad representation of amateur interests and preferences. But since it was cooked up in a vacuum by special interests, “minor” details like the interference potential of semi-automatic stations received no scrutiny. Thank you AA6YQ for your excellent comments on that subject. Although I have a lot of concerns about this petition, the biggie is semi-automatic robots appearing in spectrum where today human operators use courtesy and cooperation to avoid interference.

Presumption: Regulation is necessary, deregulation won’t work. The petition presumes that US amateur radio needs government enforced band plans, despite the success of voluntary plans in other countries (and our 160 meter voluntary band plan already in place). As recently as November 24, 2004 FCC reaffirmed their position that voluntary band plans are the best way to meet the needs of the amateur service. From FCC R&O re RM-10740: “Voluntary band planning allows amateur stations that desire to pursue different operating activities to pursue these activities by dividing or segmenting the amateur service spectrum. Voluntary band planning also allows the amateur service community the flexibility to “reallocate” the amateur service spectrum among operating interests as new operating interests and technologies emerge or operating interests and technologies fall into disfavor.”

FCC puts an intelligent perspective on the allocation of amateur spectrum. They are saying it makes sense for amateurs to develop our own band plans and dynamically adjust them as needed. I am amazed ARRL doesn’t recognize the climate for deregulation is a major opportunity for smart spectrum management. FCC is also suggesting they don’t want to micromanage frequencies in the amateur spectrum. Nevertheless, the ARRL petition will ask FCC to apply the force of federal law to their band plan. So much for future flexibility.

Fundamental Flaw: The league’s enthusiasm for regulating amateur spectrum by the bandwidth of signals is so intense, nobody bothered to investigate whether your transmitter or mine can comply with the bandwidth limits in the plan. Zero evidence shows the petition authors reviewed bandwidth data on new, old, kit and homebrew transmitters. Zero evidence of any involvement by RF engineering talent to make sure the league isn’t shooting itself and the rest of us in the foot. However, the ARRL lab has conducted product reviews on numerous transmitters over the years. Data on popular transceivers’ IM performance and spectrum displays of CW keying envelopes poses legitimate concerns about real-world compliance with explicit limits. I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not bandwidth limits would make some amateur transmitters illegal, only a question of how many.

Instead of trying to force-fit all of our equipment into a plan that looks nice on paper, shouldn’t band plans work with the amateur transmitters already on the air? FCC denied a petition to place explicit bandwidth limits on SSB and double sideband full carrier AM transmitters, citing the experimental nature of the amateur service. Again, from FCC R&O re RM-10740: “We conclude that Petitioners’ request for an amendment of our rules is inconsistent with the Commission’s objective of encouraging the experimental aspects of amateur radio service. The Petition also fails to demonstrate that a deviation from the Commission’s longstanding practice of allowing operating flexibility within the amateur service community -- is either warranted or necessary.” The petition ignores the clear signal that FCC does not want to get in the business of regulating bandwidth of amateur transmitters.

Sorry to get so long winded. One final thought: Where’s the Fire? What exactly is required today to meet the pressing needs of amateur radio? Does the future depend on wholesale changes that must be made now .. or are incremental adjustments more reasonable? The ARRL web site announced the petition on August 10, 2004 saying:

“The main objective is to make appropriate provision for digital modes in the HF amateur bands, while preserving amateurs' prerogatives to use the traditional modes.”

Although I oppose the petition in its present form I agree appropriate provision for digital modes on HF should be made. All we need is a straightforward and honest definition of what is appropriate.

73 Mike
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
-------------------------------------------
During a CW contest weekend, the 65 kHz segment at the bottom of 20m will be oversubscribed
-------------------------------------------
During a CW contest weekend, the present 150KHz subband is oversubscribed, including the place where PSK31 and other digital activity exists. There is no way that we can make subbands big enought to handle a contest weekend without overcrowding.

-------------------------------------------
most PSK31 operators are running their receivers with a 3 kHz bandwidth for panoramic reception
-------------------------------------------
One of the problems with PSK31, in my opinion. I find that it works much better when I switch in a 50Hz IF filter after selecting the station I want to listen to. Of course every transceiver doesn't have that capability (not yet anyway). Again, we don't have the spectrum available to let everyone have a 3Khz guard band around their 30 some Hz wide signal.

Of all the "against" posts I recall only one that offered an alternative proposal (except to just leave things in their present "broken" condition, which I don't consider a good alternative).

Please offer an alternate proposal that will provide the necessary solutions and satisy everyone. I support the ARRL's proposal as much better than doing nothing, but I do expect we will see some changes before it is actually submitted.

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W8MW on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Bob, I wouldn't be surprised if we see alternate petitions submitted to FCC. Many of the people involved in them will probably be ARRL members whose suggestions and opinions were ignored.

73 Mike
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote

"Again, we don't have the spectrum available to let everyone have a 3Khz guard band around their 30 some Hz wide signal."

Nor is one required, or requested. The PSK community needs a single 3 kHz segment on each band -- the spectrum consumed by a one SSB QSO.

AA4PB wrote

"Of all the "against" posts I recall only one that offered an alternative proposal (except to just leave things in their present "broken" condition, which I don't consider a good alternative)."

"Please offer an alternate proposal that will provide the necessary solutions and satisy everyone. I support the ARRL's proposal as much better than doing nothing, but I do expect we will see some changes before it is actually submitted."

Limit semi-automatic operation to a 25 kHz segment on each of 80m, 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m - say x125 to x150.

Assuming this were implemented, what problems would remain unaddressed?

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Limit semi-automatic operation to a 25 kHz segment on each of 80m, 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m - say x125 to x150
-------------------------------------------
Ahh - we agree :-) That was my suggestion to ARRL, except I didn't specify the size.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
OK. If we limit semi-automatic operation to a 25 kHz segment on each of 80m, 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m, then what need is there for the ARRL's proposal?

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
....what need is there for the ARRL's proposal?
--------------------------------------------------
Back to my begining statements. Because under the current rules we can't legally transmit multiple types of content on the same frequency. Take the new AOR unit for example. It has the capability to transmit voice, pictures and text information. In the U.S. you have to move band segments when changing from voice or pictures to text even though the transmitted signal is exactly the same format. In addition, the present rules have to be changed or bent nearly every time a new mode comes along.

In my mind, the reason for this proposal has nothing to do with semi-automatic Pactor stations. I agree that it has the effect of legalizing them over a broader range of frequencies therefore some type of limits are needed. If we can trust people to abide by band plans (which they generally do in my experience) then that would be better than codifying it into the rules where it is difficult to change in the future.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KE6I on December 31, 2004 Mail this to a friend!
Is this thing targeted at the 'hi fi ssb' guys? The guys doing wide-ish band ssb on 80 meters? This to me, seems mostly harmless, though I suppose anyone having 'unapproved fun' is not to be allowed, you know. :) The 80 meter band I listen to is mostly dead air, though I have high noise levels here in the SF Bay area.
 
Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by KQ6XA on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Management of HF Spectrum can be handled as a Communications Engineering issue.

It need not be difficult or highly charged with opinion and infighting.

To begin with, the word "mode" needs to be thrown out of the equation, along with the "mode war" that has been brewing.

It is extremely difficult to technically categorize what a "mode" is these days (in the traditional sense) anyway, and the olde definitions simply do not apply anymore.

Using simple math, it is easy to compute the proper spectrum distribution to include various bandwidth signals, accommodated by each band.

Here is an example of one simple way to use Radio Communications Engineering, to enable equitable planning for 200 simultaneous QSOs in a typical 350kHz-wide Amateur HF band:

A sub-band 50kHz wide at the lower part of the band provides space for 100 QSOs (comm channels) at 500Hz bandwidth.
100ch x 0.5kHz = 50kHz

A sub-band 300kHz wide at the upper part of the band provides space for 100 QSOs (comm channels) at 3kHz bandwidth.
100ch x 3kHz = 300kHz

Obviously, on HF, there will be spectrum re-use due to skip zones, spacial distribution of stations, and propagation. Also, signals not consuming the entire 500Hz or 3kHz allotted comm channel will make even more QSOs possible. For purpose of example, lets say this would lead conservatively to an estimated 33% more QSOs. One possible use for some of this extra 33% "free" band space could be to provide about 50kHz for comm channel bandwidths of 10kHz. The wider comm channel bandwidth portions could carry legacy AM signals, more advanced high-content signals, very robust low-content signals, "time-shared" or multiplexed signals, or many variations of future experimental modes.

Another key ingredient that can be supplied to fit into the equation, by analysis, is the actual percent of signal bandwidth distribution of amateur activity on the air. This could be combined with extrapolations based upon bandwidth trends over the past 20 years, to plan for the next 10 years or so.

With a good dose of "fair and equitable" thrown in, it would seem that a "blue ribbon panel" from a wide variety of Amateur practice could be convened to help sort out the parts of the spectrum planning equation that are not easily handled by the simple math.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W8ER on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
It appears that the significance of the ARRL proposal is getting lost in the translation.

1) It imposes regulation where there was none.

2) It introduces complexity where there was simplicity.

3) It does nothing to aleviate the problems of the phone/cw allocation. It still basically (despite calling it digital)divides the bands 1/2 phone and 1/2 cw in a world that is predominately phone.

The ARRL proposal is the ultimate slap in the face for ham radio, regardless of mode and it does more to hurt the hobby than help it.

--Larry W8ER
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W9AC on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
W4PA:

"These two statements are contradictory. It has to allow provision for any voice mode to whatever the limit is for AM operation. If it's 6 kHz for AM, then the limit needs to be 6 kHz for other voice modes, too.
It's isn't right to allow once voice mode to occupy a large chunk of spectrum without allowing others."

Scott, thanks for sprinkling a dose of logic on the matter. Why should one analog voice mode be given special dispensation in occupied bandwidth over another? This has been one argument advanced by those of us who want to continue experimentation with enhanced SSB operation.

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
1) It imposes regulation where there was none.

At the same time it removes regulations that no longer makes sense (by designating "modes" that no longer represent the real world).

2) It introduces complexity where there was simplicity.

The current regulations are only simple if you are talking about traditional voice, CW, and RTTY. Otherwise it ranges from complex to impossible.

3) It does nothing to aleviate the problems of the phone/cw allocation. It still basically (despite calling it digital)divides the bands 1/2 phone and 1/2 cw in a world that is predominately phone.

The number of non-phone stations is increasing daily. Your views are centered around a "phone" world. The proposed changes eliminate words like "phone" in favor of designating the bandwidth. If you can figure out a way to compress your phone signal to 200Hz you can operate anywhere. If your phone signal is the traditional 3KHz SSB then you operate in the upper segment.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"Because under the current rules we can't legally transmit multiple types of content on the same frequency. Take the new AOR unit for example. It has the capability to transmit voice, pictures and text information. In the U.S. you have to move band segments when changing from voice or pictures to text even though the transmitted signal is exactly the same format. In addition, the present rules have to be changed or bent nearly every time a new mode comes along."

The fact that the transmitted signals have the same format is irrelevant. There are two issues:

1. how much bandwidth does your signal consume, compared to what's available?

2. does your equipment enable you to detect ongoing QSOs -- in any mode -- within the bandwidth your signal occupies and thereby avoid QRMing them, and does it enable you to detect QRL signals within that occupied bandwidth?

If we make the answer to #2 a mandatory "yes", then dividing each band into bandwidth-limited segments makes sense -- with no constraints on mode. Given our limited HF spectrum allocation, these segments should be defined in way that

-- encourages the use of less bandwidth per QSO (through improved modulation and coding schemes)

-- retains support for popular modes

-- encourages experimentation and innovation

Thus a proposal that subdivides a 350 kHz amateur band into 100 kHz for 500 Hz signals, 200 kHz for 3 kHz signals, and 50 kHz for 10 kHz signals would be a reasonable starting point for discussion.

In the same way that amateurs are encouraged to use the minimum power required conduct a QSO, they should similarly be encouraged to use the minimum bandwidth.

AA4PB wrote:

"In my mind, the reason for this proposal has nothing to do with semi-automatic Pactor stations. I agree that it has the effect of legalizing them over a broader range of frequencies therefore some type of limits are needed."

Operationally, the motivation behind the ARRL proposal is irrelevant; what matters is its effect if implemented. As currently formulated, the ARRL proposal would result in widespread unintentional QRM. You have acknowledged this point, and yet continue to endorse the proposal. I find your position difficult to understand.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AC0H on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Can somebody explain this headlong rush by a few to turn amateur RADIO allocations into some poor approximation of the internet?

Why do we need to have a "multimedia experience" on HF?
If I want that I open up my browser and use the internet.

The people stressing "Innovation in Ham Radio" need to realize that everything they've thought up or are likely to think up, with the exception of the narrowband digital modes, has already been done on the internet. In some cases many years ago. Winlink 2000 and its ilk are neither narrowband or innovative. It's simply someone's poor, proprietary, approximation.

If you think you can pack the content available on the internet into anyhting close to 3Khz or less your deluding yourselves and I don't think any more of our limited HF spectrum should be used as a testing ground.
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Bonnie KQ6XA wrote:

"Management of HF Spectrum can be handled as a Communications Engineering issue..."

While I am comfortable with your allocation methodology, your proposal ignores the impact of semi-automatic operation. Were your proposal adopted, semi-automatic stations running protocols like Pactor could be deployed *anywhere* on the bands, leaving no one safe from inadvertent QRM.

The absence of spectrum for signals wider than 3 kHz is also problematic. While I am personally involved in neither, I believe that "legacy modes" like AM and broadband experimentation are worthy of support.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AC0H wrote:

"Can somebody explain this headlong rush by a few to turn amateur RADIO allocations into some poor approximation of the internet?"

I don't know of anyone trying to provide realtime access to the world wide web over HF. WinLink provides the ability to send and receive email to stations beyond the range of terrestrial wired or wireless networks - in remote areas, or at sea. This is a useful capability, and entirely consistent with the principles of amateur radio as long as commercial content is avoided.

However, WinLink's current use of Pactor makes its semi-automatic forwarding stations a source of unintentional QRM -- which is totally inconsistent with the principles of amateur radio. From my perspective, this is the result of an inappropriate implementation decision, not a conceptual flaw.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA4PB on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
My position is that the proposal is a giant step in the right direction. I admit that semi-automatic operation is an issue that still needs to be dealt with. That could be done either by a minor modification to the existing proposal or by a voluntary band plan. I'm not in favor of pitching the whole plan.
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AC0H on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
<<"WinLink provides the ability to send and receive email to stations beyond the range of terrestrial wired or wireless networks - in remote areas, or at sea. This is a useful capability.">>

I have to disagree.
I've monitored Pactor on 20m and have seen no such traffic. I suspect that the vast majority of Pactor traffic is simply "poor man's e-mail". There simply can't be that many MM stations or remote area stations to account for the traffic and QRM generated. The Pactor robots, and Winlink in particular, aren't worth the QRM they generate.
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AC0H on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I should revise my post to read that the number of stations around the world who have no other messaging system and HAVE to use Pactor or Winlink don't account for the amount of existing traffic.

Using Pactor and Winlink for emergency communications is one thing, re-shuffeling the entire HF spectrum and how it's allocated to accomodate the bandwidth used by these flawed protocols is another.
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AC0H said:

"I suspect that the vast majority of Pactor traffic is simply 'poor man's e-mail'."

At present, using WinLink requires the acquisition of an external Pactor modem, e.g. an SCS PTC. The cost of one of these modems would pay for several years of dial-up internet service, which would be quite a bit faster than WinLink email. Soundcard-based protocols would change this equation, but email over HF is so slow that its hard to imagine anyone using it unless they had no other alternative.

AC0H said:

"I should revise my post to read that the number of stations around the world who have no other messaging system and HAVE to use Pactor or Winlink don't account for the amount of existing traffic."

"Using Pactor and Winlink for emergency communications is one thing, re-shuffeling the entire HF spectrum and how it's allocated to accomodate the bandwidth used by these flawed protocols is another."

As should be clear from my posts here, I agree that WinLink's use of Pactor for semi-automatic operation is unacceptable. However, judging whether a QSO's content is worthy of the bandwidth it consumes is a very slippery slope. Are the late-night medical status reports on 80m more or less worthy than than a sailor letting his XYL know he's ok? Why is it ok to send a slowscan picture of my dog, but not an email message describing him? The only constraints we should place on content are those imposed by the FCC - no foul language, no music, no commerce, etc. If WinLink ops comply with these constraints, they have as much right to use amateur spectrum as do you or I.

Allocating 25 kHz on each of 10m, 15m, 20m, 40m, an 80m to semi-automatic operation would

- eliminate the unintentional QRM we experience today from Pactor et al

- meet the need for reliable email over HF

- encourage the development of better protocols and software for semi-automatic operation

- provide room for experimentation and innovation

73,

Dave, AA6YQ



 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by KY1V on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

AA6YQ wrote:

"don't know of anyone trying to provide realtime access to the world wide web over HF. WinLink provides the ability to send and receive email to stations beyond the range of terrestrial wired or wireless networks - in remote areas, or at sea. This is a useful capability, and entirely consistent with the principles of amateur radio as long as commercial content is avoided."

The key point in this statement is..."as long as commercial content is avoided".

Considering spam is commercial content and cannot be avoided or completely filtered, there is no doubt that commercial email will flow through the system.

This fact alone should be enough to close the book on automatic email forwarding using amateur frequencies.

If you want Internet access, use a commercial Internet system and pay for it like everyone else. If you want a "multimedia experience", as one person wrote, use the Internet.

David ~ KY1V
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
David KY1V wrote:

"Considering spam is commercial content and cannot be avoided or completely filtered, there is no doubt that commercial email will flow through the system."

"This fact alone should be enough to close the book on automatic email forwarding using amateur frequencies."

Whitelist-based anti-spam systems are effective. In such systems, email is only accepted from a pre-specified list of senders. WinLink nodes should be configured to only forward messages from approved senders. It would be a Winlink user's responsibility to brief those on his or her approved sender list regarding the legal restrictions on content.

The requirement to pre-specify senders, in combination with unencrypted message transmission and slow transmission speeds will limit WinLink use to those with connectivity limitations rather than economic limitations.

David KY1V wrote:

"If you want Internet access, use a commercial Internet system and pay for it like everyone else. If you want a "multimedia experience", as one person wrote, use the Internet."

I don't believe there's been any request for the HF spectrum required to provide full access to the Internet and its multimedia experience.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA4PB on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
If you want a "multimedia experience", as one person wrote, use the Internet.
-------------------------------------------
You do realize that "multimedia" in this context refers simply to sending voice, pictures, and text data? We are permitted to do that right now - we just can't do it all on the same frequency. Nobody that I know of is talking about full Internet access via HF radio.
 
RE: Spectrum is a Communications Engineering Issue  
by AA4PB on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Here's a link if anyone is interested in hearing the difference the digital voice can make:

http://www.rfelectronics.com/
 
Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum  
by KQ6XA on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"Bandwidth-based" must be "mode-neutral" to be effective, equitable, fair, and promote advancement of communications technology in the Amateur Radio Service.

Arguments about whether Pactor or any other specific protocol would interfere more than any other in a bandwidth-based frequency management plan are totally unfounded.

The fact that there is such a ridiculous fixation on using Pactor or Winlink stations as boogie man scare tactics is almost totally a result of a grudge match by a few induhviduals and ARRL committee infighting.

In reality, Pactor compatibility or any other "mode" or protocal discussions should have no bearing on decisions for bandwidth-based spectrum management changes to FCC rules.

Some of us patriotic USA hams seek the freedom that other countries' hams already have. We don't want to be left in the dust technologically due to antiquated FCC rules.

IARU Bandplans are the place for discussions of Pactor.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA6YQ on January 1, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"Arguments about whether Pactor or any other specific protocol would interfere more than any other in a bandwidth-based frequency management plan are totally unfounded."

"The fact that there is such a ridiculous fixation on using Pactor or Winlink stations as boogie man scare tactics is almost totally a result of a grudge match by a few induhviduals and ARRL committee infighting."

Pactor is a fine protocol for a QSO between stations with live operators, but when used in semi-automatic operation will QRM local QSOs in response to a remote request. Here's the scenario:

An operator in California wishes to connect to a semi-automatic station in Texas on 7.070. From the California operator's perspective, 7.070 is clear, so he initiates the connection. The semi-automatic station in Texas copies the request, and begins responding. Unfortunately, 7.070 is already in use by an operator in Mississippi in a RTTY QSO with an operator in Bermuda. The semi-automatic station calls over the in-progress QSO, QRMing it. The participants in the QRM'd QSO have no recourse; there is no means by which they can convey QRL to the semi-automatic station, even if they happen to own Pactor modems.

If there is a flaw in the above scenario, please identify it.

If not, then you should understand why proposals like yours and the ARRL's are meeting strong resistance: they would allow semi-automatic stations to use Pactor or similar protocols over most or all of our bands -- subjecting everyone to the kind of QRM described above. This has nothing to do with politics or scare tactics; its simply a matter of expecting considerate behavior from all amateur stations -- both human-operated and semi-automatic.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA4PB on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
IARU Bandplans are the place for discussions of Pactor
------------------------------------------------
I agree completely. As soon as you start writing specific modes into the regs then you create a future problem. Regs are difficult to change to cover new scenarios as the come along. A bandplan is the best place for restrictions for certain types of operation.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
One interesting point about this 'is digital voice voice or data' question is that it isn't just in the amateur world that this is a regulatory problem - in Europe, the CEPT have similar problem for use with short range devices. That's things that in the US come under part 15. Haven't got an answer yet!

The bandwidth split does seem pretty arbitrary, and only the US enforce band plans in the licence - everywhere else, it's voluntary, and seems to work.

Splitting by bandwidth might be attractive, but the fact that bandwidth is defined differently to the ITU definition doesn't help. And nothing is said about splatter, either.

I find the arguments about providing communications for people without internet etc a bit poor. Amateur radio is just that - it is NOT a substitute for commercial telecommunications provision. A lot of the use for missionaries, sailors and so on who don't have commercial access for whatever reason is pushing the boundaries of what amateur radio is intended for - and it isn't for cheap communications for people in out of the way places. Similarly, despite what some think, its primary purpose is not disaster or emergency communciations, either.

73

Peter G3RZP
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA6YQ on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
In response to "IARU Bandplans are the place for discussions of Pactor", AA4PB wrote:

"I agree completely. As soon as you start writing specific modes into the regs then you create a future problem. Regs are difficult to change to cover new scenarios as the come along. A bandplan is the best place for restrictions for certain types of operation."

I agree that specific modes or protocols should not be mentioned. However, the proposal must restrict semi-automatic operation to specific segments of each band; I won't repeat the rationale or specifics here; they are available in earlier posts to this thread.

To facilitate enforcement -- particularly of the "no commercial content" rule -- the allocations for semi-automatic operation should be by rule rather than by voluntary band plan. This would also eliminate any skepticism about compliance with a band plan.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by KG5JJ on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have to agree with the naysayers on bandwidth regulatory reform. The FCC has already made its decision. Case closed...

...73 KG5JJ (Mike)
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KY1V on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

G3RZP wrote:

"One interesting point about this 'is digital voice voice or data' question is that it isn't just in the amateur world that this is a regulatory problem - in Europe, the CEPT have similar problem for use with short range devices. That's things that in the US come under part 15. Haven't got an answer yet! "

Based on history, the end product classifies the category under which it falls. This has always been the case in the telecomm industry where voice has been digital for years.

For example, PCM [pulse code modulation] technology was developed in order to provide a mechanism for voice conversations to share backplane and internal bus wiring.

In addition, channelized T1 technology has been around for years, carrying digital voice samples over long distances.

These and many more technologies have been in use for years, sampling and digitizing voice conversations.

It has been a well known fact that an 8Khz sampling is about the narrowest sample rate that can carry voice samples with any reasonable quality. Today, with faster processing capabilities and reliable compression techniques, it is possible to effectively compress those samples much further with little degradation in audio quality. This was nearly impossible 15 years ago.

Nevertheless, voice is voice, whether it is digitized or not. The issue that we hams need to consider is whether or not we want to hear transmissions of these digital samples while tuning the phone segments of our ham bands.

Quite frankly, I am not too fond of the idea of hearing such transmissions while tuning the phone segment of the bands. To me, it is akin to dialing a phone number and reaching a FAX or modem on the other end. I would prefer that digital signals be placed in their own band segment so that I do not have to tune by them while searching for someone to speak with on SSB. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to moving the SSTV and Digital File transmissions either.

In order to accomplish this, changes may need to be made to permit these transmissions in different segments of the band, otherwise, we will all have to endure the painful squeals of data transmissions throughout our phone sub bands.

Notwithstanding the aforementioned issue, I do not believe more legislation is necessary to accomplish this goal. In fact, I am not certain that I really like the idea of digitizing conversations. It is old technology and other than providing a slightly higher quality audio experience during optimum conditions, I don't see that it serves much purpose. It certainly isn't leading edge technology.

David ~ KY1V
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by KQ6XA on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dave AA6YQ said: "Pactor is a fine protocol for a QSO between stations with live operators, but when used in semi-automatic operation will QRM local QSOs in response to a remote request...[xnip] If there is a flaw in the above scenario, please identify it."

To: Dave AA6YQ
From: Bonnie KQ6XA

Dear Dave,

The flaw is that you and a few others are forcing the discussion of an operating procedure and a protocal (pactor) into an issue that has nothing to do with operating procedures or protocals... modernization of Spectrum Management FCC Rules to become Bandwidth-Based instead of the olde antiquated Mode-Based FCC Rules the Amateur Radio Service is saddled with now.

Granted, the ARRL's committee fell into a similar trap, which started the vicious circle to begin with. Perhaps if there was to be a new committee comprised of a wider cross-section of enthusiasts for a variety of amateur practices, this pitfall could be avoided.

Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management must be "protocal-neutral" and "mode-neutral" to be fair, equitable, and provide a non-invasive framework for the future of communications technology in the Amateur Radio Service.

We all realize it is common in congress when they are writing a new law, to allow "riders" on the bills that are passed. The riders often have nothing to do with the original bill. But, this sort of politicking is counterproductive when it comes to the long-overdue need for technological advancement in the Amateur Radio Service. A "Pactor Rider" on the Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management issue only serves to divide us.

Please, take the Pactor issue to its own rulemaking discussion.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA6YQ on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"The flaw is that you and a few others are forcing the discussion of an operating procedure and a protocal (pactor) into an issue that has nothing to do with operating procedures or protocals... modernization of Spectrum Management FCC Rules to become Bandwidth-Based instead of the olde antiquated Mode-Based FCC Rules the Amateur Radio Service is saddled with now."

Since you pointed out no flaw in the semi-automatic QRM scenario, you must then agree that this scenario is valid -- not a trumped up scare tactic as you claimed earlier.

Any proposal that has the side effect of expanding this QRM scenario to impact most or all amateur radio users must be vigorously opposed. The fact that such proposals have worthwhile objectives does not compensate for the lethal effect they would have on our hobby if adopted.

These proposals are not unlike a new medical procedure that completely eradicates lung cancer, but in the process destroys the heart. Gleefully celebrating the victory over cancer while shrugging off the fatal heart damage as "a side issue that should be taken up with the Cardiology department" is of little solace to the victim's family.

The fatal problem inherent in these proposals can be corrected by including a regulation that limits semi-automatic operation -- in any mode or protocol -- to specific segments of each band. Accurately articulated, this addition would make a bandwidth-based allocation proposal far more appealing to the broad amateur community.

I do acknowledge David KY1V's concerns about encountering screechy digital QSOs while tuning the bands in search of an analog voice QSO; SSB generated similar opposition when it was first introduced. Our technology may be mode-independent, but our ears are not. I'm not sure there's a technical solution to this that doesn't require add-on muting circuitry; this concern deserves additional thought.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by KQ6XA on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, AA6YQ wrote "Since you pointed out no flaw in the semi-automatic QRM scenario, you must then agree that this scenario is valid -- not a trumped up scare tactic as you claimed earlier. "

Hi Dave,

The Pactor card is being played as a boogie-man scare tactic. It is not relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management.

However, I do agree that those who want to develop rulemaking about Pactor have every right to do so in a separate proposal. But this isn't the right way to go about it, by jamming it into the bandwidth issue.

I don't fault you for bringing it up, (ARRL committee started it) but just wanted you and the others to step back and get a broader perspective.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by KQ6XA on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, AA6YQ wrote "Since you pointed out no flaw in the semi-automatic QRM scenario, you must then agree that this scenario is valid -- not a trumped up scare tactic as you claimed earlier. "

Hi Dave,

The Pactor card is being played as a boogie-man scare tactic. It is not relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management.

However, I do agree that those who want to develop rulemaking about Pactor have every right to do so in a separate proposal. But this isn't the right way to go about it, by jamming it into the bandwidth issue.

I don't fault you for bringing it up, (ARRL committee started it) but just wanted you and the others to step back and get a broader perspective.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA4PB on January 2, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I have to agree with the naysayers on bandwidth regulatory reform. The FCC has already made its decision. Case closed...
--------------------------------------------------
No, the case is not closed. The ARRL's proposal has not even been brought to the FCC yet. It is still open for discussion. The previous request brought to the FCC by two individuals was to limit the maximum bandwidth but had nothing to do with assigning sub bands according to occupied bandwidth.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Don't forget the signal to noise ratio requirements for digital speech. If you compress it down to fit a 3kHz nominal bandwidth, can you operate with meaningful communications capability for a DX QSO down to a 6dB SNR? If not, then the advantages are a bit dubious, to say the least. There was a guy called Shannon who did a lot of work on this.....!!

There has been some military use of CVSD (Continuous Variable Slope Detection) digitised speech in a 2.4KHz channel on SSB. I'm told by people who were involved that the quality is so poor that intelligibility is marginal, but it is relatively secure, at least from a tactical viewpoint, and so has some advantages. But it's no good at low SNRs.

Interestingly, the conventional analogue method of SINAD measurement is very hard to correlate with digital speech systems, especially those using some form of excited prediction (vocoders). Getting information on the correlation between speech quality criteria and the BER (Bit Error Ratio) and thus eventually SNR, seems a bit difficult, but is very necessary for meaningful decision making.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by KY1V on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

AA4PB Wrote:

"No, the case is not closed. The ARRL's proposal has not even been brought to the FCC yet. It is still open for discussion. The previous request brought to the FCC by two individuals was to limit the maximum bandwidth but had nothing to do with assigning sub bands according to occupied bandwidth."

You may be correct about a private proposal vs. an ARRL proposal, however, I don't believe the FCC will move on this issue for the ARRL either.

In addition, as is evidenced by this thread, you are clearly in a minority, just like the ARRL's ad-hoc committee.

I can understand one's desire to experiment and have a fascination with digital voice, however, I don't believe there is anything to be gained by experimenting with old technologies on the amateur bands. Besides, many have pointed out the fact that digital audio doesn't work well at low SNR's. The need to have broadcast quality audio at high SNR's isn't worth the cost to the rest of the amateur community.

If you had some new whiz bang idea that was earth shattering technology, I would be all for it, but to change our entire band plans so a few people can play with a technology that is almost as old as I, is not acceptable.

If you want to do something good for the hobby, experiment within those bands that everyone seems so worried that we will lose but never use.

David ~ KY1V

 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I don't believe there is anything to be gained by experimenting with old technologies on the amateur bands
------------------------------------------------
Then what in the world are hams doing still using AM and playing with "hi fi" SSB? From the responses on this thread however I think you are correct. The *majority* of U.S. hams have no interest in any technology other than analog SSB and CW. They are locked into what was done 50 years or more ago and have no interest in changing anything. If this represents the true majority opinion and the FCC listens to them then most technology and experimentation will continue to be done outside the U.S. as it has been for a number of years.

This won't affect digital voice too much because it is legal now - at any bandwidth. All the existing regulations do is to restict it to the phone segment. So, if you don't want any bandwidth regulations then you may have to put up with 10-15KHz wide digital voice signals in the future.

By the way, the adhoc digital committee (which disbanded several years ago), did not make the proposal on their own. My understanding is that their recommendations were reviewed and approved by a number of people at ARRL, include the board of directors.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W8ER on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"No, the case is not closed. The ARRL's proposal has not even been brought to the FCC yet. It is still open for discussion. The previous request brought to the FCC by two individuals was to limit the maximum bandwidth but had nothing to do with assigning sub bands according to occupied bandwidth."

This is about the only thing that AA4PB and the ARRL are not wrong about when looking at this proposal. I do not believe that it "IS" a dead issue and that the push for such a restructuring may be coming from the FCC itself by way of backdoor communications.

Bob, you simply are so closed minded about the weaknesses of the proposal that you have lost all credibility with me. I rather suspect from your verbage that you simply do not understand what is being proposed and have a total lack of realization about how the bands are currently being used. How is it otherwise possible that you don't recognize that a full half of 80/75 meter band has many times as few as 5 or 6 QSO's going on and at the same time the upper half of the band is overcrowded? Basically hundreds of khz are dead, not being used! Further, please explain to me how the ARRL proposal fixes this underutilization problem. Well, it doesn't, it actually promotes it!

You need to sit down, reposition your reading glasses and look at the proposal again. You also need to listen to what hundreds of hams, who are in touch with reality, are saying about the ARRL proposal. After doing that, come back here and tell us if you see it the same way.

--Larry W8ER
 
Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum  
by KQ6XA on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dave, AA6YQ wrote "Since you pointed out no flaw in the semi-automatic QRM scenario, you must then agree that this scenario is valid -- not a trumped up scare tactic as you claimed earlier. "

Hi Dave,

The Pactor card is being played as a boogie-man scare tactic. It is not relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management.

However, I do agree that those who want to develop rulemaking about Pactor have every right to do so in a separate proposal. But this isn't the right way to go about it, by jamming it into the bandwidth issue.

I don't fault you for bringing it up, (ARRL committee started it) but just wanted you and the others to step back and get a broader perspective.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA4PB on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Larry. I've not said that the proposal is 100% correct and ready to go in its final form. The last I heard the ARRL was still looking for comments and input. A few here have expressed valid concerns that should be addressed. However, when I read comments like all experimentation and new modes should be restricted to frequencies above 5GHZ or digital voice is old technology that has no place in ham radio, or anything digital should be restricted to the Internet they are the ones that should loose all credibility. They certainly do with me and I'm sure they will with the ARRL and FCC as well if they express those kinds of views to them.

I believe as Bonnie stated that the bandwidth issue and semi-automatic operation are two different issues although both need to be addressed somewhere. I made that view known to the ARRL quite some time ago - long before anything was written about it on e-ham by anyone. I don't think it needs to be codified into the rules. If a voluntary band plan is worked out based on "subbands by bandwidth" and they are given a place then the majority will follow it. Right now they are permitted to operate over the entire CW bands but I don't hear that happening and it is certainly not endorced by WinLink. No reason to think that the entire 3KHz band will suddenly be filled with automatic digital stations (or voice robots as some have suggested).

Too many people here want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It sounds to me like they are trying to protect their own turf just like what happened when SSB first started to appear. The AM boys were against it because they didn't want to share "their spectrum" with any new technology. They said it would never work, but technology evolved and today 99% of HF voice is SSB. I expect the same will be true of digital voice and the other digital modes that many seem to be fighting so hard against.

What is needed is for people to get together and develop a cooperative plan. Submit positive ideas to ARRL; ideas that show ways to make it work. Trying to kill the existing plan and "bad mouthing" the ARRL and FCC without offering any valid input other than just leave things the way they have been for the last 50 or more years is not going to work. In the end I suspect the FCC will not take a "majority rules" vote on the matter. They will however consider sensible input on ways to make it work. The choice is yours.
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AB0WR on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA: "The Pactor card is being played as a boogie-man scare tactic. It is not relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management."

I disagree. The current automatic operation sub-bands on 20meters are as follows:

14.095-14.0995 and 14.1005-14.112

Yet you will find published WL2K pactor robots from 14064 all the way up to 14.112.4.

That makes the pactor card very relevant to any bandwidth based spectrum management.

Bandwidth based spectrum management assumes the modes used in bandwidth allocations can be good neighbors and play nice. Pactor doesn't fit this description. That makes it relevant.

If you think pactor is a good neighbor then I suggest you listen from 7100 to 7105 some evening and listen to the pactor robots stomping all over each other let alone anyone else who should happen to start up a qso in this frequency range. Or you can listen to 20 meters some day or some early evening and listen to pactor stations stomping each other, psk31, rtty, and anything else that is operating from 14064 to 14122.

Mode compatibility IS a very legitimate area of concern and topic of discussion when regulation by bandwidth is being considered. Our bands should not devolve into a survival of the most aggressive ARQ mode. All that would do is lead to development of protocols that have longer and longer timeouts and more and more repeat cycles, Not an efficient way to operate.

tim ab0wr
 
"Mode" Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based S  
by KQ6XA on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Tim ab0wr wrote: "Mode compatibility IS a very legitimate area of concern and topic of discussion when regulation by bandwidth is being considered. Our bands should not devolve into a survival of the most aggressive ARQ mode."

Hi Tim,

You are still thinking within the "mode" box, and still confusing Bandwidth-Based FCC rules with IARU Bandplans. In order for Bandwidth-Based FCC rules to work, they need to be "protocol neutral", "mode-neutral", and "operating-procedure-neutral".

To be fair and equitable, and provide for development of communications technology in the Amateur Radio Servi ce, the bandwidth-based frequency plans in the FCC rules must not favor any mode, operating procedure, or the flavor-of-the-month.

To show you how ridiculous that is these days, here's a couple examples that might twist your mind a little...

A Morse Code CW-based ARQ protocol could be depoloyed that would be usuable anywhere in the HF bands under our present mode-based FCC rules and IARU Bandplans! It could be semi-automated, or fully automated!

Does anyone else remember working the Russian CW Robot on 10 meters... it gave me a 599 report and a QSL card serial number in response to my call.

:-)

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA6YQ on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The band plans documented on the ARRL web site -- http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html -- do not explicitly mention semi-automatic or automatic operation. Is there an official band plan that allocates space for semi-automatic operation?

KQ6XA, your response simply repeats your previous position, ignoring the facts presented here that make clear the grave danger posed by proposals like the ARRL's and yours. You're unable to impeach the facts or the logic that connects them to this conclusion, and yet you continue to shrug them off as scare tactics. I will not speculate on your motivation, but suggest that you abandon ideology and return to the basic principles and practices of engineering.

AA4PB, the current deployment of Winlink stations across the bands, as can be seen by following the station hyperlinks in http://www.winlink.org/stations.htm , reinforces my conviction that a voluntary band plan would not be effective in corralling semi-automatic operation; this must be enforced by regulation. Only with such regulations safely in place could we consider proposals like the ARRL's.

I do find the "we're falling behind" concerns ironic, in that the obvious solution to the semi-automatic operation conflict is an improved set of protocols and application software. It would seem, however, that the proponents of semi-automatic operation would rather lobby than innovate. If they truly want to encourage innovation, this is an excellent opportunity to set a good example.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum  
by KQ6XA on January 3, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
You can't convince me that Pactor or any other flavor-of-the-month mode or protocol deserves its own Amateur Radio Service HF spectrum carved out under FCC Rules specifically for it.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"You can't convince me that Pactor or any other flavor-of-the-month mode or protocol deserves its own Amateur Radio Service HF spectrum carved out under FCC Rules specifically for it."

I made no such proposal. I proposed that semi-automatic operation be restricted to a 25 kHz allocation on each of 10m, 15m, 20m, 40m, and 80m. This restriction would be independent of mode or protocol.

The fundamental conflict we must resolve is not between different modes or protocols, but rather between human operation and semi-automatic operation (in its present primitive state). A human operator in one mode can detect and respect an ongoing QSO in another mode; a 5 wpm "pse QRL" in CW will be understood by any operator.

Today, semi-automatic stations are incapable of detecting busy frequencies; they respond to remote requests, whether or not the frequency is locally clear. They cannot be asked to QRL, even using their own protocol. Until the protocols and application software used by such stations are appropriately improved, they cannot share spectrum with human-operated stations.

While I acknowledge that there are other problems to be resolved before any proposal is adopted, restricting semi-automatic stations by rule to specific band segments would eliminate the major flaw in the bandwidth-based allocation proposals being discussed here.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectrum  
by KQ6XA on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Dave AA6YQ wrote: "I proposed that semi-automatic operation be restricted to a 25 kHz allocation on each of 10m, 15m, 20m, 40m, and 80m. This restriction would be independent of mode or protocol."

Hi Dave,

Whether you call it semi-automatic, automatic, or manual... you are trying to force your idea of certain operating procedures and protocols into bandwidth-based rules, where they do not belong. If you think your cause has merit, I urge you to submit it as a stand-alone proposal for rulemaking.

Under our present mode-based FCC Rules, there is no chunk of spectrum carved out for the operating procedures and protocols you describe, and there is no need to hobble future bandwidth-based spectrum management with it either. It is the domain of the IARU Bandplans.

We presently have many situations where strong manually operated stations transmit with signals in response to other stations and have potential for QRM to adjacent stations that may be in the skip zone of one the other stations. Unequal noise floors or power levels mean that reception of signals is not reciprocal. The common use of different receiver passband widths sometimes makes it unclear what the "interference temperature" actually is on HF.

So you see, the real-world effect of "manual operation" is no different from "semi-automatic" or "full-auto" operation.

We are all co-existing among the various types of signals, and the peculiarities of propagation is a fact of life on the HF amateur bands... indeed, it is one of the interesting aspects of HF operating. So, you see, there really is no need to saddle new FCC rules with flavor-of-the-month exceptions.

USA amateurs deserve the freedom that hams of other countries already are enjoying... bandwidth-based spectrum management.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"They said it would never work, but technology evolved and today 99% of HF voice is SSB. I expect the same will be true of digital voice and the other digital modes that many seem to be fighting so hard against."

Very true, but the problem with digital voice, SNR and bandwidth is a bit more fundamental, and those fundamentals are Nyquist, Boltzman, and Shannon.

We have to realise that amateur radio is very different to other communication services, in that we often require to pass very restricted amounts of information over very noisy channels. Unfortuantely, the noise isn't always a nice clean Gaussian (AWGN) noise, in which case PSK31 etc does it very well, but is frequently very heavily QRM'ed. Like a DX pile up, for example. Under those circumstances, we start needing a different approach to those adopted as standard to deal with fading and multipath.

So rushing to new technology because it's new doesn't always help. Look how long it has taken to get receiver performance back up to the standards of things like the Collins R390A or the Sherwood modified Drake R4C..........
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I'm not trying to make the case that digital voice will necessarily take over to the same extent that SSB has (maybe it will and maybe it won't). It may never be the best mode to use to break a DX pileup but there are many who do other things than try to break DX pileups. Take a look at all the PSK31 activity for example. RTTY works better for quick contacts while contesting but there are a whole lot of people using PSK31 on a daily basis to make DX contacts using low power.

Digital voice is in its infancy on ham radio. As people use it and technology advances it will likely mature into a much easier to use mode than it is now. We need to have regulations that permit new modes to develop and run their course. In the future some will become the mode of choice as SSB did and others will fall by the wayside as a bad idea. If they are never tried because of restictive regulations then we will never know how they might have worked out.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"Whether you call it semi-automatic, automatic, or manual... you are trying to force your idea of certain operating procedures and protocols into bandwidth-based rules, where they do not belong. If you think your cause has merit, I urge you to submit it as a stand-alone proposal for rulemaking."

No. At present, semi-automatic operation using protocols like Pactor is constrained by regulation to certain band segments. The ARRL proposal -- and yours -- would eliminate this constraint, allowing the inadvertent QRM from semi-automatic operation to impact most or all amateur QSOs. You have not disputed the generation of QRM by semi-automatic operation, nor have you disputed its vastly broadened impact if proposals like yours or the ARRL's are implemented. Yet you persist in blithely suggesting that limitations on semi-automatic operation be considered separately, after-the-fact.

If you believe that bandwidth-based allocations proposals must remain pure with respect to human vs. semi-automatic operation, then you and the ARRL should withdraw your proposals until a regulation constraining semi-automatic operation has been enacted. Only then will it be safe to consider bandwidth-based allocation proposals that are mute on the topic of human vs. semi-automatic operation.

KQ6XA wrote:

"We presently have many situations where strong manually operated stations transmit with signals in response to other stations and have potential for QRM to adjacent stations that may be in the skip zone of one the other stations. Unequal noise floors or power levels mean that reception of signals is not reciprocal. The common use of different receiver passband widths sometimes makes it unclear what the "interference temperature" actually is on HF. So you see, the real-world effect of "manual operation" is no different from "semi-automatic" or "full-auto" operation."

The gist of your argument is "since under certain conditions, even humans can't detect an ongoing QSO before transmitting or can't hear a QRL signal, its ok if semi-automatic stations never detect an ongoing QSO before transmitting and never respond to QRL signals". Generalized, "if something occasionally can't be done, it never need be done". This is a recipe for chaos.

KQ6XA wrote:

"We are all co-existing among the various types of signals, and the peculiarities of propagation is a fact of life on the HF amateur bands... indeed, it is one of the interesting aspects of HF operating. So, you see, there really is no need to saddle new FCC rules with flavor-of-the-month exceptions."

There is no coexistence between human and semi-automatic operation; it generates conflict where-ever it occurs. The ARRL proposal and your proposal would expand this conflict to encompass most or all QSOs. Semi-automatic operation is hardly a "flavor-of-the-month"; its been around for decades.

KQ6XA wrote:

"USA amateurs deserve the freedom that hams of other countries already are enjoying... bandwidth-based spectrum management"

Unless preceded by regulations limiting semi-automatic operation to specific band segments, bandwidth-based spectrum management proposals will bring chaos to the amateur bands, not freedom.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Pactor Not Relevant to Bandwidth-Based Spectru  
by AB0WR on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
kq6xa: "Whether you call it semi-automatic, automatic, or manual... you are trying to force your idea of certain operating procedures and protocols into bandwidth-based rules, where they do not belong. If you think your cause has merit, I urge you to submit it as a stand-alone proposal for rulemaking.

Under our present mode-based FCC Rules, there is no chunk of spectrum carved out for the operating procedures and protocols you describe, and there is no need to hobble future bandwidth-based spectrum management with it either. It is the domain of the IARU Bandplans. "

I think you need to read Title 47, Part 97, Subsection 221 again.

Automatic operation between two automatic stations is restricted to specific sub-bands. So-called semi-automatic, which is really manual to automatic operation, is restricted to 500Hz bandwidths outside the automatic sub-bands. Yet these restrictions are violated EVERY SINGLE DAY by existing pactor robots in the WL2K system.

To me, this means that we need MORE regulation of this type of operation, not less. If they are willing to expand outside existing regulations today, removing the regulations will allow for unfettered expansion to the jeopardy of all other modes.

BTW, *I* operate an automatic Pactor station in the NTSD system. I restrict my operation to the automatic sub-bands. I know from firsthand experience that the reason the WL2K people have expanded outside those sub-bands is because of the interference they cause themselves!!!! As I said earlier, listen to the sub-bands someday and listen to the robots stomping on each other let alone any qso's using any other modes.

I repeat, until the protocols and applications can be designed to be good neighbors, like packet using DCD operation, they need to be restricted to sub-bands where they can only cause interference to themselves, not the other 95% of the ARS.

This is most definitely a valid topic of discussion.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W8MW on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Let’s put this in the truth table: Any band plan is subject to error. What happens if the plan creates dead zones of underpopulated spectrum? What happens if some spectrum is overpopulated as a result of too small an allocation for popular operating activities? What’s happened in the past is we’ve been stuck with it. We’re stuck today as a result of regulation by mode. We’ll be stuck in the future as a result of regulation by bandwidth. The common flaw is regulation. The missing ingredient is flexibility.

Despite the success of voluntary band plans in other countries, and despite clear signals from FCC suggesting the climate is right for deregulation, the ARRL plan insists that US amateurs’ use of radio spectrum must be regulated. Their plan requires an additional layer of regulation on top of regulation. Our transmitters would be regulated for the sole purpose of compliance with the band plan. This is the point where warning signals started going off with me. A move toward explicit regulation of transmitter bandwidth is a direct assault on the spirit of amateur radio. Good Amateur Practice which is intentionally vague, allows amateurs to legally use transmitting equipment of every type and description. This potential loss of freedom is a serious glitch in the ARRL plan.

Ironically, all of this new regulation is being requested to achieve a spectrum management program whose main strength is deregulation. The model for the program, written by IARU can be seen at www.iaru.org. The whole idea is to do away with regulation that restricts development of new modes and their integration into band plans. The plan is presented as a suggested blueprint for member countries. It is already being implemented in some countries but in a voluntary, not government regulated manner. Because it is voluntary, it can be adjusted. IARU says: “The frequency boundary at which different bandwidth useages change could flex depending upon demand.”

So, Bob, and others who really love the idea of band plans based on emission bandwidth, give some thought to whether the ARRL plan would be more viable as a voluntary plan that is not cast in stone and can be adjusted in the future, and doesn’t open up that can of worms involving our transmitters.

You can still group your emissions in narrow, medium and wide categories and even use numeric designations like "nominal 200 Hz". Just don't make me a criminal if I choose to operate CW at 50 wpm and my bandwidth might be 250 Hz. And don't make me a criminal if I get a TT Jupiter and elect to use its 3.9 kHz transmit bandwidth option on a band that isn't busy.

My preference is for voluntary band plans similar to the 160 meter model where some amount of spectrum is dedicated to narrow modes, QRP, beacons and experimental operations. The remaining spectrum (76%) is open to mainstream amateur use. I would rather see actual on-air use determine what happens on our bands than a restrictive plan cooked up by anybody.

Whatever approach is ultimately applied, I think automatic and semi-automatic operations need to be on a tight leash inside their own box. Courtesy is the biggest factor in management of amateur spectrum.

73 Mike
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AB0WR wrote:

"I think you need to read Title 47, Part 97, Subsection 221 again."

Here is the text of Title 47, Part 97, Subsection 221 (from the FCC web site):

"97.221 Automatically controlled digital station.

(a) This rule section does not apply to an auxiliary station, a beacon station, a repeater station, an earth station, a space station, or a space telecommand
station.

(b) A station may be automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands, and on the 28.120–28.189 MHz, 24.925–24.930 MHz, 21.090–21.100 MHz, 18.105–18.110 MHz, 14.0950–14.0995 MHz, 14.1005–14.112 MHz, 10.140–10.150 MHz, 7.100–7.105 MHz, or 3.620–3.635 MHz segments.

(c) A station may be automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided that:

(1) The station is responding to interrogation
by a station under local or remote control; and

(2) No transmission from the automatically controlled station occupies a bandwidth of more than 500 Hz."

My reading is that 97.221(c)(1) permits semi-automatic operation on any amateur frequency authorized for the emission type in use. As long as they comply with the emission type constraints, WinLink stations are operating legally.

If the emission type restrictions are removed, as would occur if the ARRL proposal were adopted, then semi-automatic operation would only be precluded in the bottom few 10s of kHz of each band; everywhere else would be subject to the QRM unintentionally generated by these stations.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I too would like to see as much work as possible put into voluntary band plans that are easy to change but I'm afraid it will never happen. As I read the ARRL's comments it appears to me that they were also afraid it wouldn't happen that way. As you can tell by reading the thread here, many are wanting more restictions in the proposal to limit some modes and types of operation to protect their own turf. The general consensus appears to be that U.S. hams can't be trusted to abide by voluntary band plans. They want a "law" to guarentee that semi-automatic Pactor stations won't take over the bands.

Although the band plan would not be a part of the FCC submital, perhaps it would be a good idea to publish the initial band plan that would go along with the regulation if it is enacted. That way everyone could have a better understanding of what will really happen on day one of the new regulations.


 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"The general consensus appears to be that U.S. hams can't be trusted to abide by voluntary band plans. They want a "law" to guarentee that semi-automatic Pactor stations won't take over the bands."

While Winlink stations are not in violation of FCC regulations, the frequencies published on their web site egregiously violate the current ARRL band plan, as set forth in http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/conop.html . You can verify this by visiting http://www.winlink.org/stations.htm and clicking on any of the station hyperlinks.

As has been pointed out here by other writers, semi-automatic stations using protocols like Pactor are forced to spread out across the bands because they would otherwise QRM each other.

Since Winlink stations violate the current band plan, and since they achieve better performance when they spread out, there is no reason to believe that they would adhere to any future band plan. The need for regulation is clearly demonstrated.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
To finish my thought (I got interrupted here). Dave's concerns are not without merrit. Under the proposal the semi automatic Pactor stations could legally operate over most of the spectrum. I would anticipate that they would restrict their operation to the bottom end of the 3KHz segment, where phone operation is not permitted and they could automatically switch up to Pactor III when conditions permit. Ideally this would be handled with a band plan rather than regulation but there is no "guarentee" that people will follow a voluntary band plan.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"To finish my thought (I got interrupted here). Dave's concerns are not without merrit. Under the proposal the semi automatic Pactor stations could legally operate over most of the spectrum. I would anticipate that they would restrict their operation to the bottom end of the 3KHz segment, where phone operation is not permitted and they could automatically switch up to Pactor III when conditions permit. Ideally this would be handled with a band plan rather than regulation but there is no "guarentee" that people will follow a voluntary band plan."

And there is plenty of evidence that they would ignore a future voluntary band plan; they are certainly ignoring the current one.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9DG on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Can somebody explain to me why a regulation by bandwidth plan is always automatically being *assumed* to be only for digital modes? Or automated ones (or more accurately protocols)?

How do the WSJT modes fit into the current scheme on HF? Or what about ACSSB? Couldn't ACSSB be done using today's DSP IF radio technology much easier than when it was last tried 25 or so years ago? Isn't it essentially an analog mode? What provisions are there in the current Part 97 rules to specifically permit ACSSB? Where would it fit best under the current scheme?

While I do support the concept of bandwidth band segmentation I do see that the ARRL proposal as now defined is seriously flawed and overly complicated. It also fails to specifically separate the protocol issue from the bandwidth issue (a point that Bonnie, KQ6XY has been trying to make for so many posts with very little success). Rather than get too hung up on the current ARRL proposal lets work to define a new one that clearly separates protocols *from* bandwidths. Then work on COMPLETELY SEPPARATE rule proposal regarding automated operation *regardless* of mode.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
N9DG wrote:

"It also fails to specifically separate the protocol issue from the bandwidth issue (a point that Bonnie, KQ6XY has been trying to make for so many posts with very little success). Rather than get too hung up on the current ARRL proposal lets work to define a new one that clearly separates protocols *from* bandwidths. Then work on COMPLETELY SEPPARATE rule proposal regarding automated operation *regardless* of mode."

Separating the protocol issue from the bandwidth issue is like separating the "lungs must work" issue from the "heart must work" issue; succeeding at one while ignoring the other results in patient death.

If you insist on separate proposals, then semi-automatic operation must be regulated *before* we can consider a bandwidth-based allocation proposal. Proceeding in the opposite order would allow semi-automatic operation nearly everywhere, leading rapidly to congestive heart failure.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9DG on January 4, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA6YQ:
"If you insist on separate proposals, then semi-automatic operation must be regulated *before* we can consider a bandwidth-based allocation proposal.
..."

I can agree with this, and yes it does make sense to do these types of regulations in this order. My observation here is that so much of the fear for bandwidth based regulation stems from the specific issue of automated stations and protocols stomping on attended person to person QSO's.

But I do not want to see efforts to use WSJT-like or other extreme weaksignal modes optimized for HF be inhibited or prohibited because of this fear of unattended automated operation. Stations chasing DX or contesting are not unattended or automated to the point that they cause QRM unknowingly, the op is almost always present.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AB0WR on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
(c) A station may be automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided that:

(1) The station is responding to interrogation
by a station under local or remote control; and

(2) No transmission from the automatically controlled station occupies a bandwidth of more than 500 Hz."

Dave: "My reading is that 97.221(c)(1) permits semi-automatic operation on any amateur frequency authorized for the emission type in use. As long as they comply with the emission type constraints, WinLink stations are operating legally.

If the emission type restrictions are removed, as would occur if the ARRL proposal were adopted, then semi-automatic operation would only be precluded in the bottom few 10s of kHz of each band; everywhere else would be subject to the QRM unintentionally generated by these stations. "

Semi-auto operation is only allowed outside the automatic sub-band IF it occupies a bandwidth of less than 500Hz.

So while I agree with you that semi-auto operation is allowed anywhere today, I would also point out that every WL2K robot operating outside the automatic subband using Pactor III (and probably Pactor II based on the IM performance of the transmitter) is in violation of regulations today.

If the users of the WL2K system won't comply with specific regulations today then who expects them to comply under ANY voluntary bandplan?

I also agree that the ARRL plan would allow the robots anywhere except the 200hz area and this would be a disaster. One of the main reasons the robots have expanded outside the automatic subbands is so they won't interfere with each other.

Where will it end?

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AB0WR wrote:

"Semi-auto operation is only allowed outside the automatic sub-band IF it occupies a bandwidth of less than 500Hz."

"So while I agree with you that semi-auto operation is allowed anywhere today, I would also point out that every WL2K robot operating outside the automatic subband using Pactor III (and probably Pactor II based on the IM performance of the transmitter) is in violation of regulations today."

Actually, semi-automatic operation is not allowed everywhere today; its limited by emission type restrictions, as well as the bandwidth restriction you cite. This is why we don't currently see semi-automatic Pactor operation in the phone bands, for example. If the ARRL proposal were adopted, these emission type restrictions would be removed, and semi-automatic stations would be free to operate anywhere but the bottom 20-80 kHz of each band.

I agree that semi-automatic operation with Pactor III violates the 97.221(c)(2) of Title 47.

AB0WR wrote:

"If the users of the WL2K system won't comply with specific regulations today then who expects them to comply under ANY voluntary bandplan?"

Agreed. Like AA4PB, I would prefer a flexible bandplan to hard-coded regulations, but too many semi-automatic station operators have already proven that this is will not work. A secondary advantage to corralling semi-automatic operation into specified band segments is that it would facilitate monitoring and enforcement by the FCC. Its unfortunate, but a high-profile "Notice of Apparent Liability" or two with 5-digit fines will likely be required.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
CommEng 101: Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management  
by KQ6XA on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Communications Engineering 101:
Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management

.
Management of Amateur Radio Service HF spectrum by bandwidth is a communications engineering issue that any first-year student could handle.

It need not be difficult or highly charged with opinion and infighting.

To begin with, the word "mode" needs to be thrown out of the equation, along with the "mode war" that has been brewing. No modes, no protocols, no operating procedures, no exceptions. Simply the nominal bandwidth of the transmitted signal... nothing more... nothing less.

One basic reason is that it is extremely difficult to technically categorize what a "mode" is these days (in the traditional sense) anyway, and the olde definitions simply do not apply anymore.

Operating procedures vary amongst every operator. Example of operating procedure irrelevance: Manually-initiated contest QSOs or split-frequency DX pileups often consume entire subbands, without regard to in-progress QSOs. Saddling the job of spectrum management with rules covering operating procedures is not wise. We have had non-interference rules in place for many many years, but enforcement of non-interference has not been a high priority in the Amateur Radio Service... and it is unlikely to be in the future. So let's not get all worked up about it.

Example of protocol irrelevance: Any given protocol can be changed like the flavor-of-the-month, to follow the current fashion trend. A cursory look at the number of digital data protocols reveals that these come and go all the time. We can't make our bandwidth-based spectrum management rules dependent upon the fleeting whims of protocol designers.

Using simple math (back-of-the-envelope type), it is easy to compute the proper spectrum distribution to include various bandwidth signals, that can be accommodated by each HF band.

http://www.qsl.net/kq6xa/freqplan

Here is an example of one simple way to use Radio Communications Engineering 101, to enable equitable planning for 200 simultaneous QSOs in a typical 350kHz-wide Amateur HF band:

A sub-band 50kHz wide at the lower part of the band provides space for 100 QSOs (comm channels) at 500Hz bandwidth.
100ch x 0.5kHz = 50kHz

A sub-band 300kHz wide at the upper part of the band provides space for 100 QSOs (comm channels) at 3kHz bandwidth.
100ch x 3kHz = 300kHz

Obviously, on HF, there will be spectrum re-use due to skip zones, spacial distribution of stations, and propagation. Also, signals not consuming the entire 500Hz or 3kHz allotted comm channel will make even more QSOs possible. For purpose of example, lets say this would lead conservatively to an estimated 33% more QSOs. One possible use for some of this extra 33% "free" band space could be to provide about 50kHz for comm channel bandwidths of 10kHz. The wider comm channel bandwidth portions could carry legacy AM signals, more advanced high-content signals, very robust low-content signals, "time-shared" or multiplexed signals, or many variations of future experimental modes.

The switch from a wider bandwidth signal carrying fast information in a short time, to a narrow bandwidth signal carrying the same information slowly, has a similar overall effect on band-usage. So, time vs bandwidth vs power limitations could be utilized as a communications spectrum management tool.

Here is one example of another aspect of bandwith-based spectrum management: ERP (Effective Radiated Power) vs Bandwidth. Simply put, a second-tier rule could be proposed that limits ERP as bandwidth increases above a certain threshold. This could enable 30kHz wide signals in certian designated portions of the wider HF bands (80m,15m,10m) at significantly reduced power, such as 10W ERP or 50W ERP.

Another key ingredient that can be supplied to fit into the equation, by analysis, is the actual percent of signal bandwidth distribution of amateur activity on the air. This could be combined with extrapolations based upon bandwidth trends over the past 20 years, to plan for the next 10 years or so.

With a good dose of "fair and equitable" thrown in, it would seem that a blue ribbon panel from a wide variety of Amateur practice could be convened to help sort out the parts of the spectrum planning equation that are not easily handled by the simple math.

ALTERNATIVE: A Bandwidth-Based Frequency Plan
http://www.qsl.net/kq6xa/freqplan

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
Is Power King? Not with Bandwidth-Based Spectrum  
by KQ6XA on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Stop and ask yourself:

Why are some operators afraid of Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management?

One of the answers is:

Our present system encourages the use of brute force KILOWATTS to rule the airwaves!

Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management levels the playing field, so it might be seen as a threat to big guns, loosening the tight grip of "frequency management by kilowatt".

Through the routine use of spectrum-efficient, time-efficient, and power-efficient methods, it will be possible for the common amateur station to co-exist more equally, and eventually evolve from a world of QRO dinosaurs.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: CommEng 101: Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Manageme  
by AB0WR on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA:

"To begin with, the word "mode" needs to be thrown out of the equation, along with the "mode war" that has been brewing. No modes, no protocols, no operating procedures, no exceptions. Simply the nominal bandwidth of the transmitted signal... nothing more... nothing less.

One basic reason is that it is extremely difficult to technically categorize what a "mode" is these days (in the traditional sense) anyway, and the olde definitions simply do not apply anymore."

No, it is not hard to technically categorize what a mode is today. This is a false assumption.

"Operating procedures vary amongst every operator. Example of operating procedure irrelevance: Manually-initiated contest QSOs or split-frequency DX pileups often consume entire subbands, without regard to in-progress QSOs."

Operating procedures are NOT modes and they are NOT protocols. This is another false assumption.

" Saddling the job of spectrum management with rules covering operating procedures is not wise."

No doubt, but no one but you has mentioned doing this.

" We have had non-interference rules in place for many many years, but enforcement of non-interference has not been a high priority in the Amateur Radio Service... and it is unlikely to be in the future. So let's not get all worked up about it."

Really? REALLY????? You should meet Riley Hollingsworth, I guess. You should go to the ARRL site and look up the FCC Enforcement letters that get sent out every month. This is just another false assumption in your argument.

"Example of protocol irrelevance: Any given protocol can be changed like the flavor-of-the-month, to follow the current fashion trend."

No, it cannot. You speak below of using engineering to design a bandwidth plan. Yet you ignore the engineering rules that if you change a protocol as you state here, you will *break* everything using the prior protocol. In fact, you will have established a new protocol. Packet works because it DOESN'T change like a "flavor-of-the-month". Changes are done carefully with very serious regard for remaining compatible with prior issues.

You have another false assumption here.

" A cursory look at the number of digital data protocols reveals that these come and go all the time. We can't make our bandwidth-based spectrum management rules dependent upon the fleeting whims of protocol designers."

Digital data protocols do NOT come and go all the time. Would you like to guess how long packet has been with us? How about RTTY?

Another false assumption.

"The switch from a wider bandwidth signal carrying fast information in a short time, to a narrow bandwidth signal carrying the same information slowly, has a similar overall effect on band-usage. So, time vs bandwidth vs power limitations could be utilized as a communications spectrum management tool."

Not all communications in the ARS are based on data throughput. Roundtables on the 75meter band in the early evening do not lend themselves to time vs bandwidth vs power limitation calculations. Joe and Tim and John don't get on the air to see how fast they can send their weather info and health info and daily activity info.

Another false assumption.

"Here is one example of another aspect of bandwith-based spectrum management: ERP (Effective Radiated Power) vs Bandwidth. Simply put, a second-tier rule could be proposed that limits ERP as bandwidth increases above a certain threshold. This could enable 30kHz wide signals in certian designated portions of the wider HF bands (80m,15m,10m) at significantly reduced power, such as 10W ERP or 50W ERP."

When skip is in on 15m and 10m a *** 0.5 WATT* signal can work the world and cause interference to a number of people. That isn't ordinarily true on 80m but skip DOES happen occasionaly even there. A 30Khz signal running 10W ERP or 50w ERP could cause significant interference - way beyond what you have assigned for an impact.

Another false assumption.

"Another key ingredient that can be supplied to fit into the equation, by analysis, is the actual percent of signal bandwidth distribution of amateur activity on the air. This could be combined with extrapolations based upon bandwidth trends over the past 20 years, to plan for the next 10 years or so."

In order to extrapolate the future from the past, there must have been DATA gathered in the past to extrapolate. This doesn't exist except on a anecdotal basis. Another false assumption.

"With a good dose of "fair and equitable" thrown in, it would seem that a blue ribbon panel from a wide variety of Amateur practice could be convened to help sort out the parts of the spectrum planning equation that are not easily handled by the simple math."

Bonnie, your argument is riddled with false assumptions. This puts your conclusion in a position where it must be viewed with a big grain of salt.

You still haven't answered the big question of how we will avoid the situation of automated, aggressive ARQ signals with extended timeouts and multiple repeat cycles from proliferating on the bands to the detriment of all other communciations. When you can do this perhaps your suggestions concerning regulation by bandwidth will be more acceptable.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: CommEng 101: Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Manageme  
by AA6YQ on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"Communications Engineering 101:
Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management"

This proposal, if implemented, will open the bands to inadvertent QRM from semi-automatic stations. Its author has not disputed this, nor the widespread negative impact. The only rebuttal posted here has been "human operators sometimes cause QRM too".

This latest post ignores the cited problems altogether. This is about as far from engineering as it gets.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Change Happens. Technological Change is Inevitable  
by KQ6XA on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Tim ab0wr wrote: "You still haven't answered the big question of how we will avoid the situation of automated, aggressive ARQ signals... "


Hi Tim,

You are one of the few who are vigorously trying to inject ARQ as a boogie man issue into bandwidth-based spectrum management. You can let off on the scare tactics now. We're not buying it.
:-)

Since you are the one asking the big bad ARQ question, why don't you be the one to provide a separate rulemaking proposal for it?

ARQ is an operating procedure or part of a protocol. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with bandwidth!

ARQ can exist at any bandwidth... including very narrow bandwidth... even slow Morse CW. ARQ can exist as a data mode, a phone mode, or an image mode. Protocols, operating procedures, and modes can be changed like the flavor-of-the-month... at the click of a mouse!
Example: PACTOR 1, PACTOR 2, PACTOR 3, etc. etc.

The ARRL adhoc digital committee was mainly concerned with data communications and couldn't help being a Special Interest group. It was chocked full of specialists and experts in digital data communications. But if we are all to benefit from change, we need more hams who can look beyond their Special Interest and be fair for everyone. Let's put away the microscope of Special Interest and get out the wide angle telescope. Change is on the horizon... marching toward us.

Change happens. Technological change is inevitable. Let's provide an open un-restrictive framework for technological change in the Amateur Radio Service.

Are we as ham radio operators in USA, falling behind other countries technologically? Yes. Let's plan together so that we can enjoy the freedom in USA to progress technologically... a freedom that many other countries' hams already enjoy.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Change Happens. Technological Change is Inevit  
by AB0WR on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA: "You are one of the few who are vigorously trying to inject ARQ as a boogie man issue into bandwidth-based spectrum management. You can let off on the scare tactics now. We're not buying it.
:-)"

First, I am not one of a few, I am one of many. Another wrong assumption on your part.

Second, I live with Pactor robots stomping on each other (let alone other protocols and modes) every day. It is NOT a boogie man issue. That is another bad assumption on your part.

"Since you are the one asking the big bad ARQ question, why don't you be the one to provide a separate rulemaking proposal for it?"

Third, by splitting ARQ off by its own you have made a false argument using the fallacy of division. ARQ is also used with Packet, but packet is a good neighbor. It will usually detect any other mode or protocol using a frequency and not transmit till it is clear.

The problem is the aggessive, ARQ modes that only listen for others using the same protocol or,at most, a few other designed in protocols.

You have been presented with an alternative already. Have you forgotten it already? Or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't fit your world view?

"ARQ is an operating procedure or part of a protocol. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with bandwidth!

ARQ can exist at any bandwidth... including very narrow bandwidth... even slow Morse CW. ARQ can exist as a data mode, a phone mode, or an image mode. Protocols, operating procedures, and modes can be changed like the flavor-of-the-month... at the click of a mouse!
Example: PACTOR 1, PACTOR 2, PACTOR 3, etc. etc."

ARQ is part of a protocol, not a mode. Any way, this is nothing more than a red herring argument anyway. The fact that one can easily change between any of these does not address in any manner which ones are good neighbors and which ones are not.

Just as an operating procedure of not listening to a frequency before beginning a SSB call results in being a bad neighbor, the use of Pactor robots results in being a bad neighbor. Packet, on the other hand, does not. They can all use the same bandwidth and you will still have some being good neighbors and some not.

Why do you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore this fact of life?

"The ARRL adhoc digital committee was mainly concerned with data communications and couldn't help being a Special Interest group."

Absolutely correct.

" It was chocked full of specialists and experts in digital data communications. But if we are all to benefit from change, we need more hams who can look beyond their Special Interest and be fair for everyone. Let's put away the microscope of Special Interest and get out the wide angle telescope. Change is on the horizon... marching toward us."

The ARS is a community of amateur radio operators. Communities look out for each other, they don't play like others don't exist. They don't look away when bad neighbors move into the community and pretend nothing is happening.

But that is what you are doing.

"Change happens. Technological change is inevitable. Let's provide an open un-restrictive framework for technological change in the Amateur Radio Service.

Are we as ham radio operators in USA, falling behind other countries technologically? Yes. Let's plan together so that we can enjoy the freedom in USA to progress technologically... a freedom that many other countries' hams already enjoy."

The reason we are falling behind has nothing whatsoever to do with allowing or disallowing aggressive, ARQ modes to dominate the spectrum we have to operate in. It has more to do with the same problem the engineering schools in many of our colleges are having.

Requiring automated stations to remain in a restricted subband will in no way restrict experimentation. THAT is the boogie man that keeps getting thrown out when it is really meaningless.

The experimentation restriction has more to do with mixing multimedia data in the same data stream than it does bandwidth. The FCC can fix that quite readily without bandwidth regulation and without letting the bands become a place where only the most aggressive, ARQ protocols survive.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Change Happens. Technological Change is Inevit  
by AA6YQ on January 5, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
KQ6XA wrote:

"You are one of the few who are vigorously trying to inject ARQ as a boogie man issue into bandwidth-based spectrum management. You can let off on the scare tactics now. We're not buying it."

And yet when the semi-automatic QRM generation scenario is layed out cleanly, step-by-step, you do not dispute it -- responding meekly with "human operators sometimes generate QRM too".

KQ6XA, you have failed to substantiate any of the high-level positioning that fills your posts. When challenged, you resort to childish labeling ("boogie man") and emotional button-pushing ("patriotic Americans", "falling behind").

As for "we're not buying it", you're the only recent participant in this thread who hasn't acknowledged the dire impact of enacting a bandwidth-based allocation scheme without first corralling semi-automatic operation.

Its hard to imagine a way to make bandwidth-based allocation less appealing than by refusing to first acknowledge and address the semi-automatic operation conflict, but you may have found one in your new "QRO dinosaurs" campaign.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9LYA on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
In addition, the ARRL has done a good job in proposing bandwidth assignments that will have very little, if any, impact on any existing operation. If the proposed rules are enacted you will not have to move to a different band segment. Most of us can continue to operate exactly as we do now.


The present proposal unless officalls changed.. Will kill all automatically controlled stations
It will Kill Packet HF Forwarding stations out right.. Quite spreading the crap that it will not harm any other mode.. Seems it is out to kill the competition...

Jerry n9lya


 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Most of us can continue to operate exactly as we do now
---------------------
I stand by my statement as most of us do not use the outdated 300 baud packet forwarding system.
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Bonnie suggests the possibility of relating power and bandwidth. That's a concept that appears in professional spectrum engineering circles over here every so often. So if we had a spectral power density limit inversely proportional to the occupied bandwidth, we could perhaps see CW station occupying 100Hz and being able to run 5 times the output power of a signal 500Hz wide. Interesting.....

OK, Bonnie didn't take the argument that far.

It seems to me (and I happen, for my sins, to do some of this spectrum engineering stuff for a living)
that plain forward bandwidth separation is fine until you get competing systems (modes) that require to coexist. Now the up and coming thing professionally at HF is adaptive systems, which look for a clear channel (and let's not try defining what that is!) and then blast away. In some ways, amateur operation with its hopefully Listen Before Talk (LBT) protocol does that, although I know that doesn't apply to K1MAN. In order to ease the operation of such a protocol, a split by mode has historically been the way forward: the problem came when talking about digital voice - is it voice or is it data? As soon as you go towards automatic operation, the LBT parameters become a matter of argument, especially when you have different signal bandwidths. Personally, I think it would be easier to do a split of analogue voice, digital (including digital voice), and CW, and leave it at that, rather than trying to do by bandwidth that which is a more difficult approach.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AB0WR on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
g3rzp: "Personally, I think it would be easier to do a split of analogue voice, digital (including digital voice), and CW, and leave it at that, rather than trying to do by bandwidth that which is a more difficult approach."

Ahhh, finally a reasonable approach. Perhaps we might consider real-time, non-real-time, and real-time CW? Real-time CW would still be allowed anywhere (I still check into the phone nets sometimes using my QRP CW rig - I would hate to lose that capability). This is assuming that we can reach consensus that digitized anything is NOT real-time because of the processing time required to digitize the signal. CW, while digital, *is* real-time in most cases. This would also put any operation involving a robot in the digital sub-band, whether is robot CW or robot Pactor. Keyboard-to-keyboard Pactor would be considered real-time (assuming sending a keyboard typed message is similar to operating a CW paddle to send a message). It would still leave open specifying a special sub-sub-band in the non-real-time (or in the digital) subbands for use by robot-to-robot communication.

Any problems with this approach? I only offer it as an alternative. I like the analogue voice, digital, and Cw approach also.

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Personally, I think it would be easier to do a split of analogue voice, digital (including digital voice), and CW
------------------------------------------------
It probably would be easier, but I'm not sure it is the best solution in the long term. What happens if down the road analog voice usage decreases and digital increases? We are back to the FCC for another change in the rules to reorganize the bands again. What would have happened if the bands were split into AM and SSB segments back when there were only a few stations on SSB. Today we would have nearly everyone crammed into a small SSB segment while the big AM segment saw little use.

I think grouping signals (even if they are all digital signals) of like bandwidth together makes for better compatibility. It seems to me that when there is a QRM problem, the wider bandwidth signal always wins. It doesn't work well to place wide modes like Pactor and a narrow mode like PSK31 in the same spectrum space, even though they are both digital.

If people can't conform to a band plan then make a separate regulation to limit semiautomatic operations of any mode to a small segment. Under the ARRL proposal, phone operation is not permitted in the bottom piece of the 3KHz subband so that seems like a reasonable place to put the semiautomatic operation.

As a side note, semiautomatic Pactor stations do not have to spread out to avoid QRMing themselves. The Pactor modems have a "channel busy" indication. The firmware could easily include a feature to inhibit response to a connect request until the channel has been free for some period of time. Packet does it on a "per packet" basis and Pactor can do it on a "per connect" basis. Of course neither of them is good at detecting other modes or stations that are not exactly on frequency.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"I stand by my statement as most of us do not use the outdated 300 baud packet forwarding system."

You're probably right, but outright banning certain forms of communication on the grounds that most hams don't use them seems like a very slippery slope. Who makes the assessment of what "most" means? What are the numerator and denominator of the fraction by which utilization is measured? Is it QSOs per month or bytes per month? Does a protocol get penalized if it uses compression to reduce the bandwidth it consumes? Such policies could easily end up incentivizing the wrong behavior.

Which brings me to the question "why does the ARRL's bandwidth-based frequency allocation proposal ban automatic operation?". In particular, what is its rationale for banning automatic operation and yet greatly expanding the frequencies available for semi-automatic operation? Aren't the "we must stimulate innovation" arguments as applicable to automatic operation as they are to semi-automatic operation?

Both could be accomodated while reducing, rather than increasing, the incidence of inadvertent QRM on our bands: allocate 25 kHz segments on each of 10M, 15M, 20M, 40M, 80M, and 160M for semi-automatic *and* automatic operation. Semi-automatic and automatic operation would be prohibited by regulation outside of these segments.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA6YQ on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"As a side note, semiautomatic Pactor stations do not have to spread out to avoid QRMing themselves. The Pactor modems have a "channel busy" indication. The firmware could easily include a feature to inhibit response to a connect request until the channel has been free for some period of time. Packet does it on a "per packet" basis and Pactor can do it on a "per connect" basis. Of course neither of them is good at detecting other modes or stations that are not exactly on frequency."

Pactor is not the problem; when used in keyboard-to-keyboard QSOs its fine. In this usage, an effective mode-independent "channel busy" indicator is not important because the operator can hear the received audio and detect other Pactor transmissions (even if off-frequency), as well as transmissions in other modes.

The problem is semi-automatic application software that uses Pactor for transport. Since Pactor modems cannot provide this software with an effective mode-independent "channel busy" indication, the application software initiates transmission whether the frequency is in use or not. There is no provision for detecting and reacting to a QRL signal in any mode -- even Pactor!

What's required is

- the capability to detect signals in any mode within the range of frequencies to be occupied by a transmission

- the capability to detect a mode-independent "QRL" signal (I suggest this be CW so that even operators with nothing more than a hand key can generate it)

- application software that uses the above two capabilities to peacefully coexist with other spectrum users to the same degree that a well-intentioned human operator would

Meeting these requirements using the hardware and software resources available on home PCs will be challenge, but its exactly the sort of challenge that has stimulated innovation in the past. Accomplishing this would dramatically improve our utilization and enjoyment of a precious, limited resource: the HF spectrum allocated to amateur radio operation.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AA4PB on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
The idea presented in the proposal comments is that the fully automatic Packet forwarding of message traffic is no longer necessary (presumably due to the availability of the Internet as a backbone). The restriction applies to pactor stations as well as packet so I don't see where it gives pactor any advantage over packet.

The proposed elimination of fully automatic operation below 10M does not mean that you can no longer operate an HF packet station. Packet can operate in semi-automatic mode just like pactor with an operator at one end. You just can't have them deciding to transmit all on their own.

There are a number of items in the proposal that really have nothing to do with "subbands by bandwidth". I don't expect it really makes a great deal of difference if they are submitted in the same proposal or a different proposal because the FCC is not restricted to adopting "all or nothing". They could easily adopt parts of it and reject or change other parts.

At any rate, I never said that the ARRL proposal would not harm any other mode. He quoted me correctly in his response but read it wrong.
 
Build Another Technology Jail? No... Break Free!  
by KQ6XA on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Many of the newer methods of communication technology make use of "handshaking"... or auto-transponding communication techniques. These are important techniques that can be applied to almost any emission type or signal method to enhance the ability for hams to dodge QRM, avoid interference from locally generated RFI noise, and even mitigate the interference from BPL. Eventually, these techniques will become commonplace in amateur equipment and routinely used by hams.

Some say "the sky is falling", and advocate carving out a chunk, or the creation of a "technology jail" on each band in the HF spectrum for these techniques.

That is not only short-sighted, it is counterproductive for USA's Amateur Radio Service. Other countries that we communicate with on HF do not have rules with "technology jails" in their amateur spectrum like we have in USA.

To carve out small chunks of such restricted subbands would put us back in the dark ages of the days when we had to work split (half-duplex) with other countries... hey, come to think of it... that's the way it is right now on 40m and 80m!

Let's break free of the dark ages' technology jail and abolish it forever.

Eliminate all mode, protocol, and operating-procedure exceptions from new Bandwidth-Based Spectrum Management rule proposals.

Bonnie KQ6XA
 
RE: Build Another Technology Jail? No... Break Fre  
by AA4PB on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Do you think that it would help to gain acceptance if a proposed voluntary band plan were drafted and made available along with the proposal to the FCC? The bandplan would of course not become an FCC rule but it would perhaps let people know what the plan is. It would be especially useful if it were endorced by major groups like the WinLink folks. Reading over the ARRL comments, it would "appear" that the intent is for high speed data stations to occupy the lower segment of the 3kHz subband - but there is nothing that specifically states that.

I agree that we need to "break free" but I can also understand the concern that folks may not abide by a bandplan - especially if the bandwidth rules were to be enacted before a corresponding bandplan were in place. I'm sure there will be plenty of time before any rule changes were in force but a bandplan early on *might* alleviate some of the fears.
 
RE: Build Another Technology Jail? No... Break Fre  
by AA6YQ on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
In response to a proposal to restrict semi-automatic and automatic operation to 25 kHz band segments on each of 10M, 15M, 20M, 40M, 80M, and 160M, KQ6XA wrote:

"Many of the newer methods of communication technology make use of "handshaking"... or auto-transponding communication techniques. These are important techniques that can be applied to almost any emission type or signal method to enhance the ability for hams to dodge QRM, avoid interference from locally generated RFI noise, and even mitigate the interference from BPL. Eventually, these techniques will become commonplace in amateur equipment and routinely used by hams."

These techniques could be used in person-to-person QSOs without restriction.

KQ6XA wrote:

"Some say "the sky is falling", and advocate carving out a chunk, or the creation of a "technology jail" on each band in the HF spectrum for these techniques."

No. The use of these techniques would not be restricted to the band segments allocated for semi-automatic operation. Only semi-automatic QSOs would be restricted to their allocated segments.

KQ6XA wrote:

"That is not only short-sighted, it is counterproductive for USA's Amateur Radio Service. Other countries that we communicate with on HF do not have rules with "technology jails" in their amateur spectrum like we have in USA."

Your "technology jails" characterization clearly does not apply to the technologies you described at the outset of your post, since they would only be limited to restricted band segments when used in semi-automatic or automatic operation. They could be freely used in person-to-person QSOs -- in any mode, with any protocol.

K6QXY wrote:

"Let's break free of the dark ages' technology jail and abolish it forever."

Lets break free of making false assertions in desperate attempts to salvage bad ideas. The management of our amateur bands is serious business; we have no time for games.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
RE: Build Another Technology Jail? No... Break Fre  
by AA6YQ on January 6, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
AA4PB wrote:

"Do you think that it would help to gain acceptance if a proposed voluntary band plan were drafted and made available along with the proposal to the FCC?"

<snip>

"It would be especially useful if it were endorced by major groups like the WinLink folks."

<snip>

"I agree that we need to "break free" but I can also understand the concern that folks may not abide by a bandplan - especially if the bandwidth rules were to be enacted before a corresponding bandplan were in place. I'm sure there will be plenty of time before any rule changes were in force but a bandplan early on *might* alleviate some of the fears."

Since WinLink flaunts the current voluntary band plan, why would anyone believe they would abide by a new voluntary band plan? Appeasement never works.

Were WinLink to *immediately* bring their semi-automatic stations into compliance with both the current band plan and FCC regulations, and publicly commit to adherence to all future ARRL band plans, there would be grounds for replacing skepticism with optimism. Anything short of that is wishful thinking.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ
 
Subbands by Bandwidth  
by G3RZP on January 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
I believe all the rest of the world uses voluntary band planning - I don't know of any country other than the US that has mandatory band planning as part of the licencing regime. So firstly, you have to ask if it's necessary - Why should something that works elsewhere not work in the US?

Once you take the FCC out of the loop, then a split of Phone - digital - CW is flexible. Peer pressure comes in, although in the days before IARU Band Plans recognised digital modes above 14100, and the US band plans accepted packet there, we did have a degree of friction. In those days, the frequencies above 14100 were available for intra continental packet working in the US, but of course, there were a lot of SSB DX stations in that part of the band as well.

Coexistence for signals of varying bandwidth isn't difficult, and there are plenty of standards around which do that. One which comes to mind is the Medical Implant Communications Service, up in the 402 to 405MHz region, where equipment operating in channel widths of up to 300kHz co-exists with equipment in 25kHz wide channels.

So you could easily arrange that the split was varied over time as required, although you'll always get some people who won't abide by voluntary agreement - those over here who use SSB on 10 MHz, for example.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by N9LYA on January 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
SOme of us do use 300 baud packet forwarding so go lay down..

73 jerry
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by W6RMK on January 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
Someone wrote:
Whatever happens, I do not think we should permit wider bandwidth modes/protocols on HF. Experimentation with wide bandwidths should take place in spectrum that isn't crowded, like 29mHz and up. There is plenty of real estate in UHF and above and no one has shown me any valid justification that HF is necessary to do such experimentation.

---
The justification is that only the HF bands have the peculiarities of ionospheric propagation. One of the purposes of the amateur radio service is to advance the state of the radio art, and that requires experimentation. Amateur radio is wonderful because I can go out and experiment with some technique, without requiring prior special licensing for the specific test (which would be required with a Part 5 experimental license).
There's not much commercial demand for it, but wouldn't it be nice if there were a communications technique that provided high quality voice/data, over a fading HF channel, AND had the multiple simultaneous access characteristics of current SSB (i.e. digital pileups?) Commercial development of HF techniques is largely centered on point-to-point one-to-one links, not the many-to-one links characteristic of DX pileups.
Nobody's going to develop this, except for hams.
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by AB0WR on January 7, 2005 Mail this to a friend!
"There's not much commercial demand for it, but wouldn't it be nice if there were a communications technique that provided high quality voice/data, over a fading HF channel, AND had the multiple simultaneous access characteristics of current SSB (i.e. digital pileups?) Commercial development of HF techniques is largely centered on point-to-point one-to-one links, not the many-to-one links characteristic of DX pileups.
Nobody's going to develop this, except for hams."

Respectfully, I'm not sure such a thing is going to be developed for a long, long time.

The "identifiablity quotient" of analog human voices by a receiving human brain will be very, very difficult to duplicate in any kind of a reasonable digital signal today. Most digital protocols just cannot duplicate the mulitiplicity of techniques the brain uses to discerne differences and filter "in" wanted communications including tonal, amplitude, and phase differences. The same techniques are used in concentrating on wanted CW signals versus unwanted ones.

I wonder if anyone has ever even quantified the computing power required to separate two , for instance, two pactor signals separated by 10 hz transmitting at the same time?

tim ab0wr
 
RE: Subbands by Bandwidth  
by WA1RNE on January 10, 2005 Mail this to a friend!

[This article is like the Energizer Bunny]



Automated Amateur Radio.....AAR -ghetta!!


Amateur Radio Internet......ARI....A Rude Interlude.


Get the picture??


Can you imagine how boring this hobby would be with automated amateur radio scouring the HF bands? After you've made your first 1500 QSO's in 3 days how interesting will that be after 6 months???

You think BPL is a QRM nightmare? Welcome to our own self-induced version.

What's really laughable is using bandwidth as an excuse to justify widespread digital initiatives for the network-savy amateur. Why? Because we don't need to CONSERVE bandwidth - we have more than we know what to do with now!

Speaking of "savy"; kind of funny how this idea seems to give manufacturers a nice fat future revenue stream, don't you think?

Networking and amateur radio can coexist as professions and hobbies, just don't put them into the blender - like whiskey and sour cream.

Why do you think AM is making a come back??

Want change for the sake of change? I like bell-bottoms and Classic Rock but not NBAB; Narrow Band Amateur Broadcasting............

 
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