Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
Neil Schwanitz (V73NS)
on
January 10, 2005
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In the world of CW there is one way to display poor operating skills and add QRM at the same time. As DX, I can tell you I hear it all too often, the Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty… commonly known as a question mark.
I can be sorting my way through a pile up and they appear… Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty's. It seems one breeds another and another. No DX station in their right mind will stop everything to work a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty. Who is this station that is so impatient that they refuse to LISTEN and think this is a way to get the DX station to answer them so they can rapidly send their exchange and run off to Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty the next DX spot? Everyone else is listening and sending only at the proper time. If they are in a hurry to work me because they were being called to save the world… they should have told me!
Other times I can be CQ'ing in the clear and magically from the speaker comes… Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty. Again, someone not listening! But I was listening and heard a station transmit (without ID'ing) so I logically send QRZ? which means, "who is calling me?" This must have gone in one of their ears and out the other so they send Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty, telling me they are confused by my last transmission, so I again will ask, QRZ? You'd think they would be able to copy three letters and one punctuation… maybe not because I again hear a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty sent. Maybe they need to brush up on their Q-signals?
Partial calls are a no no on CW, but maybe their call is something, something, IMI? Either way it's a bad-operating practice.
There have been other times while the Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty's couldn't understand the QRZ? that I sent, someone else did and chimed in with their call sign, which gets them into the log and an exchange is sent.
Sending a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty is rude, annoying, and the sure sign of a Lid. Don't do it! If the DX is calling CQ they plan on being on the air for a while so spend some time listening. If the station asks, QRZ?… tell them your call. Same goes in a pile up, there are 40 stations that know the DX's call and are trying to get in. Wait a few minutes, listen, and send your call once you know who you're trying to work. The Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty's don't control things… they only wish they did. DX station do ID often, a few minutes isn't going to ruin your day.
I'm not a phone operator but I seriously doubt you hear anyone say Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty there. Be a top shelf CW op and don't subject yourself to the wrath of the Wouff-Hong and Rettysnitch.
Neil
V73NS
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Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
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by YI9VCQ on January 10, 2005
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I get the same thing going on every single day. It's quite funny if you sit back and think of the "liddish" things your hear.
My favorite is when I'm running a CW pileup. I send my call at least every 3 QSO's and send my QSL info when someone I'm coversing with asks. Invariably, I get QRM asking for my call and QSL info. It's funny that people just don't listen. I consider it very rude. I'll sit for untold minutes just listening for anything I may need. It WILL come around sooner or later.
My second peeve is the folks who send "QRL?". I send "C C TU" and they just go ahead and pound away. Why even ask if you don't care? I'm not talking about weak signals either--these guys can definitely hear me. I just tune them out of my passband and keep at it.
Hamming it up and lovin' it,
Korey
YI9VCQ
Taji, Iraq
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by VE7ALQ on January 10, 2005
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As a (semi)seasoned operator, I find it quicker to send the infamous "Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty" after a word I have cloberred, than send the politically correct eight dits.
I agree with you regarding QRL? which may simply be ignored. Maybe the offenders have an "S7" power line noise like I have as my noise floor, and honestly can't hear you. I hope I'm forgiven if I cause QRM to anyone.
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by WD4IMI on January 10, 2005
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Neil,
For years I wondered why I couldn't make any DX contacts on CW..Now I know it is my call!!!
Yep I use it on SSB "rude, annoying, and the sure sign of a lid" I fit right in with all those..Now if I just could remember my call!!!
Dave
WD4 "IMI"
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by W8CAR on January 10, 2005
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You say tomato I say tomatoe. I hear ditta dah dah ditti- a perfectly respectable mark of punctuation that carries lots of meaning and is shorter than most calls. Now that you have vented do you feel better??? (or .. -- .. )!
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by K3YD on January 10, 2005
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Send your call every 3 QSOs? No problem! I do have problems with the operators who send their call every 10 or 15 minutes, while running a pile up at 200+ per hour. THOSE are the guys I'll query with a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty.
In this age of packet call outs, too many OPs will call and log based on Packet Info. I know that some percentage of packet spots are WRONG. Sometimes I operate without spotting (packet) assistance. In either case, I want to hear a call myself, before I work it and log it.
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by W3PH on January 10, 2005
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> In either case, I want to hear a call myself, before I work it and log it.
Amen to that. Even if the spotting info is right, it's still generally only +/- 1khz and between propagation differences and being off by a khz, I figure odds are pretty good I'd wind up calling somebody completely different (and maybe somebody I'd just worked half an hour ago ... oops) if I couldn't confirm the call first ...
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by K0BG on January 10, 2005
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Oh the ubiquitous "QRZ" !
If I hear a DX station send QRZ and it's obvious the lid it was meant for didn't get the meaning, I'll send my call. Most of the time I get the contact I was looking for.
That same lid is the guy who gets on phone and says "...QRZ the frequency..". I don't know about you, but in all my years of amateur radio, I have never heard any frequency call anyone.
Alan, KØBG
www.k0bg.com
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by EXWA2SWA on January 10, 2005
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I LISTENED to XF1K's pileup yesterday for a while before discovering that he was running it "Up 2" from his own freq - I was going nuts since he was getting 599s from stations all over, and I wasn't hearing him at all! Made perfect sense, once I LISTENED & then jumped in for my exchange. Even as a nugget, it was amusing (and disappointing) to LISTEN to some of those seeking attention ...
From the daze when I "listened to other people's mail", I recall hearing two stations working duplex. One station had an obvious love affair with the sound of his own side-tone & his partner's callsign and the other kept transmitting DE DE DE DE, in hopes, I suppose, of getting the other guy to shut up & LISTEN.
As noted in another part of eHam, one never hears two receivers working one another; same-same two transmitters.
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by W5GNB on January 10, 2005
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I am having a HARD time understanding what the problem is here, This is about as important as the agrivation of having the toilet paper unrolling Backwards in the bathroom.
This is such a trivial complaint that it is not even worth discussing... Let't get on to something that matters such as "BPL" or "Incentive Licensing".
DE W5GNB
DIT DIT DIT DAH DIT DAH!!!!
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by KA3B on January 10, 2005
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Obviously Mr. "do away with the code" Tech class hasn't worked much dx on the fone bands where you only hear someone asking for the dx stations call after the qso is supposed to be complete.
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by GOODBUDDY on January 10, 2005
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"Sending a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty is rude, annoying, and the sure sign of a Lid. Don't do it!"
Neil: I hope you feel better getting this horrible thing off of your chest.
Eham: Sheesh, this is about as trivial as it gets for articles. Perhaps if an article has a rant and rave slant to it then it shouldn't be considered for "front page".
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by W4EWJ on January 10, 2005
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a lid is a lid...ssb or cw makes no difference.
They are everywhere...bands are full of the stupid
bastards...just getting worse. IMI to them means
"gee I cant copy cw pls give me your c/s many times
so eventualy I'll figure it out"
ewj
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by NI0C on January 10, 2005
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Neil,
Thanks for posting this. Obviously W8CAR did not read or comprehend your article-- which was quite clear concerning a most obnoxious operating practice. I've heard it a thousand times or more. Sometimes when a spot shows up on the world-wide internet cluster, you'll hear the "?" on frequency, sent by someone who either can't copy the DX or doesn't know that the DX has already moved or QRT. There's no excuse whatsoever for this QRM from the clueless.
73 & thanks for V7 on 80m a while back!
Chuck NI0C
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by KE4MOB on January 10, 2005
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I've seen this a lot of times. I'll be calling CQ and I hear the Didi DaDah Didi. So I'll drop a "de" followed by my call. The other station sends "?" agn.
Then I send my call once more V E R Y S L O W L Y.
At this stage, it's obvious that the op at the other end is either a newbie and doesn't know how to send "QRS?" or is deaf.
At any rate, I'll QRS and happily work the newbie in the hopes that he'll get better with time. But as far the deaf station...oh well, maybe next go-around.
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by KB7LYM on January 10, 2005
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The secrets of Ditty Dumb dumb Ditty.
One should be reminded that Amateur Radio as a whole is just a hobby.
To make a definite observation I went to Professor Lupardi who is a genius on Radio Technology and asked him to give me a true answer about the Amateur Ham radio hobby.
His answer was as follows:
There is a very fine line between " Hobby " and
" Mental illness."
Also he stated as help to those sitting for hours without sleep and so involved with the Ditty Dumb Syndrom that they need sleepong pills to get some rest.
But he added... Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
73 KB7LYM
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by KR4WM on January 10, 2005
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OK, ya got me! Usually, I am just dialing around, hear someone CQing, and will pause on their frequency. Sometimes I just catch the tail-end of their transmission while grasping for paper and pencil. (I was taught that the only "proper" way to do CW was pencil and paper.) I pause. I listen. I hear absolutely nobody going back to the caller. Only silence emanates from my speaker. After a minute, I wonder if the guy is still there or not? So I send "ditty dumb dumb ditty" to find out if the operator who was sending CQ a few moments ago is still on frequency. Sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't. In any event, a pleasurable exchange eventually takes place, and we both part company after having visited for awhile on the radio. Never heard anybody complain about this.... It's also quite useful at my slow rate of code to use instead of sending QRL? to see if a frequency is busy before calling CQ. I think it's better etiquette to send a short ? on top of a QSO-in-progress (at 5WPM) that you don't realize is taking place. I seldom operate full-break-in, so by the time I discover the frequency is in use, I will have covered up 10 to 15 seconds of someone's conversation if I send QRL?. But I can see how this would be very aggravating on a busy DX frequency.
-KR4WM
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by K4JF on January 10, 2005
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"I find it quicker to send the infamous "Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty" after a word I have cloberred, than send the politically correct eight dits. "
Eight dits is not "politically correct". Nothing infamous about it.
It is the CORRECT way to say "I made an error and am resending". It is (very slightly) faster than sending "?". (Two dahs are longer than four dits.)
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by K4JF on January 10, 2005
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It is correct to ignore "QRL?" unless you are actually listening for the station.
It is also correct to ignore "QRZ?" unless you have actually called the station before. Unless you have already called, he/she is not addressing you.
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by KB3FYD on January 10, 2005
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I can't stand people looking at me. I mean, I just want to go bezerk. STOP LOOKING AT ME!!!! Do you know how rude it is to look at a person?
Whaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
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by K8FLY on January 10, 2005
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Well i dont do a whole lot of dxing these days , but when i did i would think the stn seding the ? was probably wondering what the call of the dx stn was & quite a few times i found dx stns caught up in the magic of the pile up doesnt give his call very often , not all dx chasers have the luxury of a dx cluster to view . in just normal every day operateing practices , it really doesnt bother me the be siting on freq & hear a ? at least the name less was checking the freq which is often times more than some will do ......... just jump right on in & not check the freq at all. ha! well got to laugh about the qrl comments , lot of times i run with a 500hz filter in line & assume most other stns are filter capable as well. so lots of times you might really not hear the other stn. surely lots to be said on these issues , i always try to be courtous if i send qrl & the other stn answeres up i will move off that freq , but many times you send qrl & the stn does not answer up i assume i am no problem to that stn . so i guess there are two sides to every issue . all the best Bill
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by VE7ALQ on January 10, 2005
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I'm sorry, but I find it easier to send the Morse string "Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty" than to count out precisely eight dits on my mechanical Vibroplex at 20 WPM. Maybe time and experience will help my Vibroplex sending technique.
By the way, I hang out on 7040 kiloHertz, the QRP calling frequency, and as a courtesy we all or all should call QRL? and listen before beginning a CQ. Anyone tell me what the QRO RTTY signals are doing on 7040 kiloHertz?
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by KE4MOB on January 10, 2005
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"I'm sorry, but I find it easier to send the Morse string "Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty" than to count out precisely eight dits on my mechanical Vibroplex at 20 WPM. Maybe time and experience will help my Vibroplex sending technique."
Tsk tsk....
Don't you know it's not politically correct to still be using a Vibroplex?? You should have switched to a set of paddles years ago.....
;-}
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by KZ1A on January 10, 2005
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Neil,
I think I feel your pain......
Maybe we should just change it to Dumb, Dumb.....
I agree, it is rude and a clear sign that the "lid" is not listening.
73, de Mac KZ1A
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by K4JF on January 10, 2005
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"By the way, I hang out on 7040 kiloHertz, the QRP calling frequency, and as a courtesy we all or all should call QRL? and listen before beginning a CQ."
I think you should ask if the frequency is in use before sending "CQ".
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by AC9TS on January 10, 2005
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I once sat and listened for at least 5 minutes before calling a CQ in the 40M Novice band. A few seconds after I was done, I heard a station and started copying. It turned out that I was QRM'ing his QSO with someone I couldn't hear. I came to this very board and asked what should I have done. The Elmers said to send a ? and wait a bit. Send another ? and wait some more. If nothing, then go ahead.
You have to remeber, at slow speeds, it takes a while for the QSO to shift from one operator to the other. At the time, I didn't know the whole procedure (I knew to listen but not to ask). I will continue to send a ? to see if the freq is clear. I heard it on eham so it MUST be true ;-)
Tom - AC9TS
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by KB1ATA on January 10, 2005
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> Anyone tell me what the QRO RTTY signals
> are doing on 7040 kiloHertz?
Because 7040 kHz is the "RTTY DX" frequency in the ARRL bandplan.
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html#40m
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by K4NR on January 10, 2005
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"I think you should ask if the frequency is in use before sending "CQ"."
Last time I looked QRL? was the proper way for asking if the frequency was in use when using CW.
73 de Tom, K4NR
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by VE7ALQ on January 10, 2005
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I did a google search on "qrp 40 meters" and came up with a list of frequencies used by QRP operators, and, I'm sorry, but 7040 kilohertz is listed as the QRP calling frequency on 40 meters. How QRP CW can share the same frequency as QRO RTTY beats me. Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty?
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by EXWA2SWA on January 10, 2005
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Uh oh ...
"Don't you know it's not politically correct to still be using a Vibroplex?? You should have switched to a set of paddles years ago....."
I use a Vibroplex Original plugged into a radio with tubes in it, I only work CW on HF, I copy with pen & paper and I log by hand. I'm both nugget and anachronism at the same time, as well as being politically incorrect! Ain't ham radio fun?
Jim KE5CXX
Stuck in the 60's!
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by NI0C on January 10, 2005
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Quote from AC9TS:
"I came to this very board and asked what should I have done. The Elmers said to send a ? and wait a bit. Send another ? and wait some more. If nothing, then go ahead.
You have to remeber, at slow speeds, it takes a while for the QSO to shift from one operator to the other. At the time, I didn't know the whole procedure (I knew to listen but not to ask). I will continue to send a ? to see if the freq is clear."
You received bad advice! Think of it this way: a question mark without a question is pretty meaningless. On the other hand, if you send QRL?, that conveys your question, namely is the frequency in use. As Neil points out in his article, to simply send a question mark conveys no useful information and just causes QRM.
73,
Chuck NI0C
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by AC0H on January 10, 2005
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K3YD wrote:
<<"Send your call every 3 QSOs? No problem! I do have problems with the operators who send their call every 10 or 15 minutes, while running a pile up at 200+ per hour. THOSE are the guys I'll query with a Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty.">>
Ditto that!
I've heard both SSB and CW DX go as long as 1/2 hour without IDing. Seems to me most countries rules state no more than 10 minutes without an ID.
KE6OUD wrote:
<<" Another reason to do away with the code........">>
Well, what can I say to that other than.....CW, those that can do, those that can't snivel about it.
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by KB1ATA on January 10, 2005
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Cool - another one of those "point of view" exercises.
When I’m copying a faint signal, a strong “QRL?” (especially when sent s l o w l y) might very well obliterate quite a bit of what I’m trying to copy. In this case, I’d consider it a courtesy that the other op contracted “QRL?” to just “?”, to which I could just reply with a quick “dit-dit” or “Y”. If that signal was faint to me, it might well have been completely invisible to the other op. Signals go where signals want to go, not where we want them to go.
I thought it was pretty well understood that “?” was shorthand for “QRL?”, but I'll concede that this is not necessarily the case.
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by KI7CP on January 10, 2005
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Its amazing how so many hams try to justify bad , poor or obnoxious operating habits. The example of "its easier" shows that these are the type of people who just don't care about or see the efficiency of correct operating procedures. All the excuses that I have read so far are pretty lame and inconsiderate. Basically these people feel that they have a right to do whatever they want just because they are the greatest person on Earth. They even try to ridicule my right to complain about them or anything else in ham radio. Ditty Dum Dum Dumb read my lips, "lid" is not something on the top of jar. If the DX operators will stand up to these people then that will be a most effective "incentive" for them to shape up. For myself I don't need a QSO so bad that I have to put up Ditty Dum Dum Dumb. They will even say that now I am the bad guy and why can't we all get along when they have no intention of getting along just doing as the please because its "easier"
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by K0IMJ on January 10, 2005
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I'm not quite sure, but is the poster saying that when he sends a QRZ the station sends back a "?". One of my pet peves is a station that sends QRZ, and nothing else. The DX station does not QRZ de xxxxx. I can see someone sending "?" at that time. Often DX stations think the world revolves around them and everyone has been setting on frequency listening for an hour while hoping beyond hope that the DX station will come back to them. Heaven knows it's most always a mess. I have been chasing DX since January of 1957 and quite frankly the only ones that I have heard send a "?" are DX stations. Of course everyone thinks he wants him or her to send again causing even more conjestion. Most of this could be eliminated by the DX station running the frequency better.
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by W5HTW on January 10, 2005
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More and more I am so glad ham radio is just a hobby and not something we have to rely upon to earn a living, or, save the world.
ed
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by X-WB1AUW on January 10, 2005
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My favorite is the op sending "CALL?" with the DX station replying "CALL?599"
73
Bob
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by W3DCG on January 10, 2005
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Yeah, I think listening for 5 minutes is nice.
At the same time, regardless of the ID Laws of the DX
country, I think it is rude when I have to depend on
a spot to know who is being piled upon.
Sometimes I have to go- to work, to school, to get the kids, or to get in a decent CW fix. I might have a 10 minute window to get my call in there before I have to dash out the door. Sometimes I'm thinking, who is it and how likely is it I can get through, versus OK I have 15 minutes before commute time, should I wait around and try, or go someplace else and get a quickie CW fix (rag-chew).
I have thankfully, however, under 5 qso's where I made the contact, logged it, had no idea who it was, and had to research who it might have been later when I came back home.
So while ? is usually unecessary, some times there's a station who just keeps doling them out, and ID-ing every 10 minutes or longer, which I think is poor form.
My favorite pile-up-generator operators, are those who ID every 3rd to 5th contact. Then truly, ? is a bit rude.
If DX ID'd every minute or so, there might be much less incentive for the seemingly impatient to send dididahdahdidit.
Sometimes though, they just go on and on and on and on and on and on... sending people's calls and 5NN. It is during these kinds of runs that I agree- when I hear a nice, likely pointed- dididahdahdidit, I sometimes say out loud,
Thank-You, i was thinking the same exact thing, buddy!
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by K4EQ on January 10, 2005
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For several years I was DX from Central America and I understand where you're coming from. But I have to say that 95% of the question marks come because the DX station rarely identifies. Lids can be on both sides of the pileup. A DXer lid is one who IDs every five minutes or so. Frankly, the best run CW pileups occur because the DX station IDs after every contact.
QRL? is always an appropriate and courteous query before calling CQ. It's possible the stateside station doesn't QSY when the DX station sends "C" because he simply doesn't hear him. If he hears the DX station and continues, then, of course, he's a lid.
Dale, K4EQ
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by KY1V on January 10, 2005
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When I operate CW as a DX station [VP5X, PJ2/, 6Y5/, ...etc], I always ID at least every minute. If the pileup is not too big, I will send TU DE VP5X after every contact. After all, how long does it really take to send TU DE VP5X after each contact?
It lets the other stations know you are finished with the current contact and provides your call sign.
DX stations that don't ID for 5, 10 minutes or more are the real LIDS. There is no excuse for this poor operating behavior and it encourages the bad behavior for which is being complained about here in this thread. You reap what you sow. I rarely have any one send ? when I run a pileup and when I do, I ignore them except to the extent to send TU DE VP5X at the end of the current contact.
As one poster stated, some people only have a few minutes to operate and make a contact before doing other important things, such as going to work, taking care of family matters, etc. Not everyone has the liberty to sit around all day waiting for some LID DX station to send his ID once every half hour.
Having been on both sides of a pileup, I have a unique perspective. ID often, give out your QSL information every ten minutes or so and be sure to post it on your web page or QRZ.COM for those that don't have time to wait around for you to send it. If you want to be real considerate, give out your name every 3 or 4 contacts so people know who is on the other side of the QSO.
Most importantly, control your pileup. Don't answer lids, be consistent and be fair. It isn't rocket science, it's common sense.
For the rest of you. Send your call when you send QRL? What does it hurt to send QRL? DE KY1V. It is the only legal way to ask if the frequency is in use, especially if you get an answer and plan to QSY. Sending only ? is not only incorrect operating procedure, it is illegal, at least in the US.
Now, for the guy asking about 7040kHz, I can only ask...whom is the more likely authority on band plans, Google or the ARRL?
See you in the pileups...from both sides.
David ~ KY1V / VP5X
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Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
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by G0RTN on January 11, 2005
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I agree with most of this - the most irritating bit is when they send ? or QSL INFO? just when the 339 DX station is sending his callsign or QSL route! Aaaargh!
Just one comment to Korey though - I don't think most Europeans understand C as "yes" - I know I didn't until I chanced on it in an ARRL publication while on the toilet this morning. (Too much detail, folks?) While of course, they should move off frequency if they hear anyone transmitting at all, YES will probably work better.
At least these people ask QRL? I'll not mention the callsign of the 10 over 9 UR station who started CQing over the top of my QRP QSO partner the other night. Or the IZ4 who started calling me when I was working J85M (5 watts and a long wire at his end, new one for me) the other night either. These things are bad for my blood pressure.
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Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
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by N0IU on January 11, 2005
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I guess I am guilty, too, of making the contact, receiving my report, then going to DX Summit and seeing who I just worked!
Actually, the one thing that I have yet to receive any explanation for (and perhaps a topic for another article) is why so many contests use a signal report in the exchange? If someone is in a pileup and misses some part of the information, then I can understand why he would send a "?", but the thing I find really humorous is the contest exchange that goes something like, "UR 599 NEED UR STATE AGN PSE". Doesn't 599 mean something to the effect that the transmission was received perfectly?
It reminds me of one of the best April Fools ads in QST many years ago. It seems there was this company who developed the "perfect" HF antenna. It was small, light, compact, broadbanded, inexpensive, etc. It was everything a ham could want. It worked OK in day to day use, but the real test was how it would perform in a contest. Well they knew they had a good design when they proclaimed that everyone in the contest gave them a 599 signal report!
73!
de NØIU
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by K4RAF on January 11, 2005
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CW operators are supposed to be "elite" examples of our breed?
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RE: Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
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by W7COM on January 11, 2005
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Thanks Willy (N2WEC) for all the ??? on one line and making everyone have to scroll left and right to read the forum. Freaking LID!
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by WA3KYY on January 11, 2005
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VE7ALQ sent
"By the way, I hang out on 7040 kiloHertz, the QRP calling frequency, and as a courtesy we all or all should call QRL? and listen before beginning a CQ. Anyone tell me what the QRO RTTY signals are doing on 7040 kiloHertz? "
Operating in accordance with the Region 1 and 3 bandplans perhaps? Is the better question actually "Why is the CW QRP Calling frequency in the middle of the Region 1 and 3 data segment on 40m?"
One day in the future when everyone or most everyone has 7.0-7.3MHz for 40M these clashes between incompatible Region bandplans will disappear. Hopefully.
73,
Mike WA3KYY
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by WA5ZNU on January 11, 2005
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>"UR 599 NEED UR STATE AGN PSE". Doesn't 599 mean something to the effect that the transmission was received perfectly?
Actually, "R" means received perfectly.
The 5 in 599 means perfectly readable, but not that I was able to read it perfectly. OM might have a terrible fist, or I might not be able to copy that fast (or that slow ;-), or I might have in-shack 'QRN'...
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by W5RYA on January 12, 2005
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Rarely do I consider a response to these topics, but I feel the need to reply to this one. I have always interpreted the ? sent in a pileup for a DX station as a request for the DX station to identify. It may not be a matter of the requesting station not listening, but propagation making it difficult to hear the call of the DX station. Perhaps it is because the DX station does not feel the need to identify because of the large number of stations calling him.
I have personally listened to DX stations running contacts at a high rate without identifying their station call for up to 30 minutes at a time. Most of the time, after the RST exchange, the DX station is asked for his call because the calling station never was able to identify who he was calling. This is not a matter of hearing the station, but the lack of the DX station giving his call often enough. I will never call a DX station if I cannot hear his call on the air. I will continue to use the ? to request the station identify if identification is so sparce that most of us cannot determine who it is, regardless of DX Spots via internet or packet radion.
If a DX station gives his call every three contacts this is great. But to not give the call until the contact rate drops to a rate of 10 per hour is very poor operating practice. Who is the LID in this case? Certainly not the poor guy running 100 watts (or QRP ) with simple wire antennas who is simply asking for the DX station to identify.
What do you expect us to do, repeatedly send QRA? to request you to identify more often? A simple ? to ask for the call of the station who does not identify often enough for everyone to know who it is takes much less time and provides much less QRM.
Get off your high horse and consider what is perceived at the other end of the pileup.
James B. Sims, W5RYA - Licensed continuously for 48 years
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by K4JF on January 12, 2005
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<Just one comment to Korey though - I don't think most Europeans understand C as "yes" - I know I didn't until I chanced on it in an ARRL publication. While of course, they should move off frequency if they hear anyone transmitting at all, YES will probably work better. >
I use a "Y". Fast, and (almost) always understood.
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by KC8VWM on January 12, 2005
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Whatever spins your dial I suppose.
It seems apparent that the main thrust and objective in Amateur Radio is to communicate and be understood regardless of the various interpretations of "?" mentioned in this thread.
Tune in next week when we will discuss the proper use of the letter "@"
Remember, we are not professionals, we are radio experimenters.
Beware: We are not clones and operating styles may vary.
dahdahditditdit ditditditdahdah
dahditdit dit dahditdah dahditdahdit dahdahdahditdit
ditditditdah ditdahdah dahdah
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by W4PA on January 13, 2005
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>>DX station do ID often, a few minutes isn't going to ruin your day.<<
It's OK for you to ID every few minutes rather than after about every second or third QSO (like you should be doing for good pileup management), but it's not OK for me to send a "?" to ask who you are?
Bunk.
W4PA
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by AB8RO on January 13, 2005
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If, instead of bitching, every one of you "experienced operators" posted a short tutorial on this site about some small aspect of operating in your preferred mode, perhaps those of us without the experience might learn something about correct procedure.
Of course, you don't have to worry about me acting like a lid, cause I don't bother being much of an active ham. For the life of me I don't remember such a grumpy old bunch of "Mr StuffyPant'es" when I was a kid.
Daryl Posnett
AB8RO
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by N4UM on January 13, 2005
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What a tempest in a tea pot! A few self-important DX stations seem to feel that giving their call sign once every 20 minutes is more than sufficient. No wonder they get ditty dumb dumb dittyed to death. They deserve it!
Not everyone wants to wait 20 minutes listening to meaningless one way calls and inflated signal reports that are often typical in pile-ups. Not everyone is able to us a DX cluster to figure who is the object of the pile-up's attention. Diddy dumb dumb ditty is certainly more efficient than the politically correct QRA? Get a life man. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
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by V73NS on January 16, 2005
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N4UM writes:
Not everyone is able to us a DX cluster to figure who is the object of the pile-up's attention. Diddy dumb dumb ditty is certainly more efficient than the politically correct QRA?
<><><>
LISTENING works MUCH better.
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by KD5CLK on January 16, 2005
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gee all this bickering over cw make me think twice about finishing my morse code studies. i try to be proffectional with my dxing. but now knowing that if i have a hard time with my morse code with a dx station is going to get me laught at i guess i need to stay in the little league with the tech the so called losers of amateur radio. so may the morse be with u. it probably wont with me!
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by N0IU on January 16, 2005
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To KD5CLK,
Nice bass Tony!
My advice to you is that you will probably have a lot more fun if you go ahead with learning and using Morse code and if you are going to give up on anything, you should be better off by not taking some of the comments on eHam too seriously!
de NØIU
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by N4CW on January 16, 2005
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I can appreciate the controversy from both sides and do agree with Scott, W4PA, that it's not a back breaker to identify often.
The ditty-dum-dum-ditty business can be as obnoxious as "Your call?" on fone...often provoked by the station not identifying after a reasonable time. Then, there are the jerks who are so busy querying the call that they can't hear the reply...
But what's sad is that someone with a legitimate I-M-I call gets penalized. No excuse for that, either.
73,
Bert, N4CW [whose cousin, K1IMI (sk), was a helluva guy]
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by WA2JJH on January 16, 2005
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QRzedd the frequency is a pet peeve of mine also.
How about the space cadet that tunes up for a few minutes. He then gives a few whistles, so he can get what he thinks is his PEP. Then goes QRzeed the frequency, is the frequency in use.
I will go this is WA2JJH, what was your call?
Do that twice.
1)They will tune up for more. If one of my friend has the beam he gets a vector. We had 2 with beams one time. Got an idea of the location.
I use diversity RX. We are just getting it down to a system. Last time we got some nervous. With the 2 Beams
and diversity Rx, one of our group wrote a computer program. It will give use longitude and latitude.
I then bluted out does the station at xxx.xx L AND
YYY.YY LATERAL want to check in with call.
The dude just said SORRY QSY !
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by N9XMX on January 18, 2005
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Good grief, here we go again. It is no wonder no one wants to learn code, nor do those who have learned, desire to work CW. Yes, the other modes have their own character and idiosyncrasies attributed to those who frequent these segments of the band, but let us talk CW operators for a minute.
I struggled for years to learn CW, and initially enjoyed working it. I did find many friendly people there, which wanted to see CW live and thrive. However, I have all but abandoned CW. One too many encounters, with arrogant, condescending, whining, better than anyone else, and fast to label others (your reference to a lid - point in case) led me to a “why bother feeling.”
When is the last time you offered to be in Elmer? When is the last time you taught CW? When is the last time you encouraged young children with ham radio (JOTA or school function)? When is the last time you honestly gave of yourself to promote this hobby?
Honestly, some CW operators need to examine themselves a little closer. Perhaps it is your attitude that is poor, and not that of the operator who needs gentle education and encouragement.
Jerry
N9XMX
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by VE7ALQ on January 18, 2005
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I volunteered to be an "Elmer" for the (CW) Fists association. They said they would jump at the opportunity, and yet, three months later, I have not heard of anything further, and am still waiting. My Fists number is 11117...
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by N4GJ on January 19, 2005
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The no coders have to get their word in without knowing
what they are talking about...I know for sure what it
means to be rare DX and back in 1964-1965 on Marcus
Island as the only licensed Ham on the island, I had
some real pileups and sometimes had to go
QRT for a period of time and them start over..
Good luck to every DX station on the bands..
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by KC8VWM on January 19, 2005
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dahdi dahdi dah dah did ah, dahdi dahdi dah dah di dah, dahdi dahdi dah dah di dah.
dah didi dit
dahdidah dah didah dit dah dah dah ditdit dit dit dit dah ditdah dah dah dah
I dunno, seems to have a nice ring to it I think...
I especially like the
dah dah dah ditdit
part..lol
73
Charles - KC8VWM
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by KB8NJH on January 21, 2005
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With the phasing out of CW, and the choice of many
Hams NOT to study the code I'll take a ditty dah dah
ditit....to dead air anytime...Yes it is annoying...
but so is a overdone steak or a commercial just when
the CW operator in a movie is about to send the code
when the enemy is spotted....You solder the last PL-259
connector only to find the female nut in your lap.....
Don't tell me you never had this to happen...A lid
can be turned around...maybe a few already have turned
around by reading this peeve...Point is it's always
something....Greg
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by JJ1BDX on January 22, 2005
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Many JAs uses ..--.. for asking the callsign of the station he/she hears, obviously illegal because it's without his/her identification.
73 de Kenji JJ1BDX(/3)
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by KL7HF on January 22, 2005
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Even more irritating are DX stations who
do not identify each QSO. You sit and sit and sit
and sit some more waiting for these guys - finally
give up and move on!
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Ditty Dumb Dumb Ditty
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by HAMDUDE on January 23, 2005
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Dumb dumb is right! Geeeeeeeeez! Something so trivial as someone sending a question mark sets this guy off? Id hate to be around this guy if something really bad happened. He probably kicks the dog for barking once too often. Relax dude, its only a hobby. After all, can hearing a couple ???? on cw be as bad as 50,000 morons hollering cq contest on top of each other for a solid 48 hrs.?
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by KB9BVN on January 26, 2005
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7040 is the International RTTY calling frequency. We US QRPers ought to move to 7030 with the rest of the world QRPers.
73 de KB9BVN
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by KA9KQH on February 23, 2005
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I don't know about DX station id requirments but aren't we as US Hams required to id once every 10 minutes and at the end of EACH QSO? While Id'ing a the end of every QSO would slow down those pileups there would be no question who was operating and thus no need for the DITTY DUMB DUMB DITTY.
73 de KA9KQH
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by VE3LXL on March 27, 2006
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> 7040 is the International RTTY calling frequency. We US
> QRPers ought to move to 7030 with the rest of the world
> QRPers.
Unfortunately most of the 40 m rockbound QRP kits and other similar rigs out there are all set up to work on 7040 kHz, which would make a shift to 7030 difficult. I think we're stuck with the current situation, where 7040 is used as both the international RTTY calling frequency, and the North American QRP calling frequency. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either.
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