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Author Topic: Icoms new IC-7610 Revealed  (Read 63017 times)
K7JQ
Member

Posts: 946




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« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2017, 12:49:34 PM »

What makes me LOL is that hams today spend over $3k  plus for a radio and the same for an amp which is starting to be a SS of some kind, over a kilobuck on an automatic antenna  tuner and pun all this nice gear into a POS antenna system and they get on here trying to disperse differences which would not make any real differences with there POS antenna system. The one thing I have to say is the newer hams dont have the elmers we used to have back in the 50/60 and 70's, all those more experienced hams would tell you that its what outside in your antenna system which counts. Most newbie's will spend thousands on the radio gear and buy a OCF store built antenna system such as the one they sell for over $300 dollars, install it at 20' and expect your going to have a great signal and work plenty of DX, sorry but all you will end up with is a good NVIS signal on 75 meters and it will not mater if your using a 7610, Flex 6400 or even an Icom 7851.
Most radio's today are very good, some slightly better than some on a test bench but unless you have a super station your frigging kidding yourself plus I have to LOL that some think there going to hear these subtle differences on a GAP vertical out in the back yard as well, yes it operates multi bands but the efficiency for all those bands is not at all equal so who is kidding who.
The most logical call would be install the most efficient antenna system you can then decide what radio will work well enough because the rest of it is eye candy.
 The reason the 7300 has done soo well is the use of the well defined fish finder with the touch screen like the one on your cell phones with good basic performance at a low price and Icom hit the ball out of the park on this one, I dont think the 7610 will do as well unless it does lab numbers like there 7851 which would be like Icom cutting there own wrists in the market besides pissing off all those ham's who plunked down $12000 for that radio.
 I would like to see Yaesu or Kenwood come out with an SDR radio but something tells me they don not have the engineering budgets for the R&D for sdr's, they may do something like what the K3 did and come out with a like down conversion radio with a super front end like the K3S with improved DSP but the sdr game is a costly race to enter into.

Agreed that a great, efficient antenna system is the best asset in a ham radio station. I looked you up on qrz.com, and marvel at the antennas you had at your previous contest station.

However, in today's housing climate, many amateurs, myself included, live in antenna prohibited communities, and have no choice but to operate with (comparatively speaking) POS stealth antennas. In my case, a ground-mounted mobile screwdriver that covers 6-80 meters...generally considered a POS, inefficient antenna. Not visible to the HOA or neighbors, in recent years I've managed to work over 280 countries, and turned in some fairly impressive contest scores. Radios are Icoms 7600 and 7300, and my current amp is an Acom 1500. Had I lesser performing radios with poorer sensitivity, selectivity, NR, NB capabilities, and only ran 100 watts, I seriously doubt that my stats would have been the same. I have to say, for me, the bandscopes/waterfalls have proved to be invaluable tools. Sometimes with an unavoidable weak link, the other components have to be beefed up to somewhat compensate. You do what you can with what you have available.

73, Bob K7JQ
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GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




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« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2017, 01:42:12 PM »


........spend thousands on the radio gear and buy a OCF store built antenna system such as the one they sell for over $300 dollars, install it at 20' and expect your going to have a great signal and work plenty of DX, sorry but all you will end up with is a good NVIS signal on 75 meters and it will not mater if your using a 7610, Flex 6400 or even an Icom 7851.
Most radio's today are very good, some slightly better than some on a test bench but unless you have a super station your frigging kidding yourself plus I have to LOL that some think there going to hear these subtle differences on a GAP vertical out in the back yard as well, yes it operates multi bands but the efficiency for all those bands is not at all equal so who is kidding who.........


It's a well known psychological characteristic called "confirmation bias" - you will see examples of it prevalent among those that seemingly need (as a matter of absolute necessity) the latest "fish finder" radio and as close by as post #105.   Smiley
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:49:45 PM by GM1FLQ » Logged
VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 146




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« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2017, 02:51:48 PM »

Excellent noise cancellation and visual display capabilities make any station, no matter how poorly antenna-equipped, more capable of receiving under most conditions, especially adverse conditions like antenna restricted urban and suburban environments...  this has been known since the 1940's when panadapters were being introduced to help operators spot signals in between interference and noise.  And household-generated QRM is usually far worse for those dense neighborhoods where the worst antennas also usually prevail.

So I am not at all surprised to find that superior receiving capabilities often need to go hand in hand with inferior antenna systems, agreeing with W7JQ.

73, Ed VE3WGO
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K7JQ
Member

Posts: 946




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« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2017, 03:14:06 PM »


........spend thousands on the radio gear and buy a OCF store built antenna system such as the one they sell for over $300 dollars, install it at 20' and expect your going to have a great signal and work plenty of DX, sorry but all you will end up with is a good NVIS signal on 75 meters and it will not mater if your using a 7610, Flex 6400 or even an Icom 7851.
Most radio's today are very good, some slightly better than some on a test bench but unless you have a super station your frigging kidding yourself plus I have to LOL that some think there going to hear these subtle differences on a GAP vertical out in the back yard as well, yes it operates multi bands but the efficiency for all those bands is not at all equal so who is kidding who.........


It's a well known psychological characteristic called "confirmation bias" - you will see examples of it prevalent among those that seemingly need (as a matter of absolute necessity) the latest "fish finder" radio and as close by as post #105.   Smiley

It could have stopped with your last response to me. I was done. But, you know.....Nah, I won't stoop to your level. Looks like someone has finally gotten your goat...err, I mean "sheep". Say what you want...no more response from me.
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K7JQ
Member

Posts: 946




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« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2017, 03:26:42 PM »

Excellent noise cancellation and visual display capabilities make any station, no matter how poorly antenna-equipped, more capable of receiving under most conditions, especially adverse conditions like antenna restricted urban and suburban environments...  this has been known since the 1940's when panadapters were being introduced to help operators spot signals in between interference and noise.  And household-generated QRM is usually far worse for those dense neighborhoods where the worst antennas also usually prevail.

So I am not at all surprised to find that superior receiving capabilities often need to go hand in hand with inferior antenna systems, agreeing with W7JQ.

73, Ed VE3WGO

Thanks, Ed. And more transmitted power into compromised antennas will make quite a difference on the other end. I've proven that time and time again.

73, Bob K7JQ
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VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 146




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« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2017, 05:39:44 PM »

Bob K7JQ, sorry about mixing up your prefix.

Good logical point about transmitting power to make up for antenna system inefficiencies.

For me, the single most useful performance improvement over my ham and swl career has been noise reduction and cancellation features of the most recent radios, because of the local QRM I suffer from.  As long as these noise processors are effective and don't garble the intended signal, I've been pretty happy with an average or even below average antenna, just to keep the neighbours happy, but my older radios almost without exception, did a poor job dealing with most noise problems. 

I also like the wonderful bandscopes in the latest radios.  There has always been something about a real-time graphic display of the activity going on the tuning dial that I really liked.  I have had a Heathkit SB-101 with the SB-620 pan-scope for many years..... no noise or interference fighting capabilities of any kind (although I played with a homebrewed Lamb blanker for a while, built from the Handbook design), so I keep it just for nostalgia these days of course. 

So the latest crop of SDR and RF sampling transceivers/receivers appeals to me.  An SDR version of the IC-9100 would be ideal for my interests, so I can play with multiple receivers at once, and see the band while I tune, and do satellites and VHF/UHF operating.  I wonder if the IC-7610 will support full duplex operation?  I have several transverters suitable for V/UHF work.

73, Ed VE3WGO
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GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




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« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2017, 12:29:55 AM »

 
   
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KE2TR
Member

Posts: 613




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« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2017, 08:09:57 AM »

Point well taken Bob and just ignore the G land qrm but as you said trying to get the most out of mini micro stations is kind of like what I am doing now. I only have a lot which is 100X125 which is even smaller than the lot I built my old station on, Long Island townships are getting way too aggressive with there CC&R's and make it impossible to install towers unless you live somewhere in the woods and cant see other houses around you, simply put its a real PITA. But I still try and get the biggest band for the buck out of my antenna system cause if you dont have decent antenna efficiency all the power you can muster in the amp is just going to make you an alligator in the pile ups and the most frustrating sound from the station you are trying to work is Again Again?Huh
I just find that as hams are today they spend way too much on there inside gear and take the easy store bought way out with a kind of not so efficient antenna system plus then you have the modeling types that never try different antennas cause they dont model as good as the would want, to me that is like living in a bubble. Part of the fun of this hobby is being creative and inventive but many just want instant gratification and plug n play. As far as the NB,NR and what the SDR's bring to a smaller station you are 100% correct but I have not found any new radio that brings any better performance in those area's above a very good down conversion, roofing filtered, DSP base radio's. The NR in many of the SDR rigs all have artifacts just like the none sdr rigs, nothing yet that I have seen has been a noise be gone and clean clear audio is prevailed but I am sure the NB's in the new flex radio should be something when they finally come to market with them and it's a wait and see on the Icom.
 
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VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 146




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« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2017, 09:36:56 AM »

True enough.  Since Direct Sampled receivers (most SDRs are this) process a large chunk of bandwidth at once, there is one distinct advantage they could have in processing of noise and interference, especially the wide bandwidth kinds.  Since QRN and most QRM are wideband in nature, a good SDR noise removal processor should be able to do a better job than a narrowband superhet.  I suppose it all comes down to how good the noise canceller/reducer algorithm really is.  If you don't notice any difference, then the SDR isn't living up to its full potential.
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N6YFM
Member

Posts: 498




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« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2017, 03:23:35 PM »

What makes me LOL is that hams today spend over $3k  plus for a radio and the same for an amp which is starting to be a SS of some kind, over a kilobuck on an automatic antenna  tuner and pun all this nice gear into a POS antenna system and they get on here trying to disperse differences which would not make any real differences with there POS antenna system. The one thing I have to say is the newer hams dont have the elmers we used to have back in the 50/60 and 70's, all those more experienced hams would tell you that its what outside in your antenna system which counts. Most newbie's will spend thousands on the radio gear and buy a OCF store built antenna system such as the one they sell for over $300 dollars, install it at 20' and expect your going to have a great signal and work plenty of DX, sorry but all you will end up with is a good NVIS signal on 75 meters and it will not mater if your using a 7610, Flex 6400 or even an Icom 7851.
Most radio's today are very good, some slightly better than some on a test bench but unless you have a super station your frigging kidding yourself plus I have to LOL that some think there going to hear these subtle differences on a GAP vertical out in the back yard as well, yes it operates multi bands but the efficiency for all those bands is not at all equal so who is kidding who.
The most logical call would be install the most efficient antenna system you can then decide what radio will work well enough because the rest of it is eye candy.
 The reason the 7300 has done soo well is the use of the well defined fish finder with the touch screen like the one on your cell phones with good basic performance at a low price and Icom hit the ball out of the park on this one, I dont think the 7610 will do as well unless it does lab numbers like there 7851 which would be like Icom cutting there own wrists in the market besides pissing off all those ham's who plunked down $12000 for that radio.
 I would like to see Yaesu or Kenwood come out with an SDR radio but something tells me they don not have the engineering budgets for the R&D for sdr's, they may do something like what the K3 did and come out with a like down conversion radio with a super front end like the K3S with improved DSP but the sdr game is a costly race to enter into.

Agreed that a great, efficient antenna system is the best asset in a ham radio station. I looked you up on qrz.com, and marvel at the antennas you had at your previous contest station.

However, in today's housing climate, many amateurs, myself included, live in antenna prohibited communities, and have no choice but to operate with (comparatively speaking) POS stealth antennas. In my case, a ground-mounted mobile screwdriver that covers 6-80 meters...generally considered a POS, inefficient antenna. Not visible to the HOA or neighbors, in recent years I've managed to work over 280 countries, and turned in some fairly impressive contest scores. Radios are Icoms 7600 and 7300, and my current amp is an Acom 1500. Had I lesser performing radios with poorer sensitivity, selectivity, NR, NB capabilities, and only ran 100 watts, I seriously doubt that my stats would have been the same. I have to say, for me, the bandscopes/waterfalls have proved to be invaluable tools. Sometimes with an unavoidable weak link, the other components have to be beefed up to somewhat compensate. You do what you can with what you have available.

73, Bob K7JQ

Agreed.   Nothing really wrong with what KE2TR said, except that it's not all of us.
I also, like you, live on a small city lot, on a sloping hill, with power lines on 3 sides, and a
restrictive Hill-Side View Ordinance.     All I could get away with was a small rotating dipole
(Comet H-422) and an EFHW-1080 wire antenna at approx. 20 feet.   If no one will let you do
more than that for antenna choices, then it still makes sense to have a rig with modern filtering
and capability.   It still makes sense to have an amplifier.

Given my POS antenna farm and high local noise floor, a good transceiver helps me, does not hurt.
Given the above, when I started to play a tiny bit with RTTY and contests, no one could complete
a QSO with me at 100 watts.   But they could, quite often, with 350 watts.  So my crap antenna
farm with a good rig and a good small amp provides good hobby fun for me.
BUT, my crap antenna farm with no amp and with a 1990 boat anchor IC-720 did not provide
anywhere near as much fun.

So, while I totally "get" what you are saying, and agree with it, let's not forget about those who
simply don't have the option of better antenna investment.   If you are only permitted to put up
compromise antenna's, you can still add some additional fun to the hobby with a good rig and
a good small amp.   [Yes, small amp.  Full legal amp into crap antenna only yields melted crap]

Cheers,

Neal
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GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




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« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2017, 10:40:30 PM »


Point well taken Bob and just ignore the G land qrm but as you said trying to get the most out of mini micro stations is kind of like what I am doing now.
 

Has he just to ignore (now) what you said also   Wink  ...........


What makes me LOL is that hams today spend over $3k  plus for a radio and the same for an amp which is starting to be a SS of some kind, over a kilobuck on an automatic antenna  tuner and pun all this nice gear into a POS antenna system and they get on here trying to disperse differences which would not make any real differences with there POS antenna system.

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GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




Ignore
« Reply #116 on: August 01, 2017, 11:38:32 PM »


What makes me LOL is that hams today spend over $3k  plus for a radio and the same for an amp which is starting to be a SS of some kind, over a kilobuck on an automatic antenna  tuner and pun all this nice gear into a POS antenna system and they get on here trying to disperse differences which would not make any real differences with there POS antenna system.



Agreed.   Nothing really wrong with what KE2TR said, except that it's not all of us.
I also, like you, live on a small city lot, on a sloping hill, with power lines on 3 sides, and a
restrictive Hill-Side View Ordinance.     All I could get away with was a small rotating dipole
(Comet H-422) and an EFHW-1080 wire antenna at approx. 20 feet.   If no one will let you do
more than that for antenna choices, then it still makes sense to have a rig with modern filtering
and capability.   It still makes sense to have an amplifier.

Given my POS antenna farm and high local noise floor, a good transceiver helps me, does not hurt.
Given the above, when I started to play a tiny bit with RTTY and contests, no one could complete
a QSO with me at 100 watts.   But they could, quite often, with 350 watts.  So my crap antenna
farm with a good rig and a good small amp provides good hobby fun for me.
BUT, my crap antenna farm with no amp and with a 1990 boat anchor IC-720 did not provide
anywhere near as much fun.

So, while I totally "get" what you are saying, and agree with it, let's not forget about those who
simply don't have the option of better antenna investment.   If you are only permitted to put up
compromise antenna's, you can still add some additional fun to the hobby with a good rig and
a good small amp.   [Yes, small amp.  Full legal amp into crap antenna only yields melted crap]

Cheers,

Neal


Seems Jim boy saw favour with the "in crowd" slipping & is now making quick with the sudden empathy & back pedal.

So once again I give you the words of Jim  Grin ..........


What makes me LOL is that hams today spend over $3k  plus for a radio and the same for an amp which is starting to be a SS of some kind, over a kilobuck on an automatic antenna  tuner and pun all this nice gear into a POS antenna system and they get on here trying to disperse differences which would not make any real differences with there POS antenna system.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 11:59:24 PM by GM1FLQ » Logged
K1HMS
Member

Posts: 463




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« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2017, 05:47:45 PM »

I noticed today 5 HRO locations are offering their IC-7600s as "open box". Bit of a coincidence or corporate direction. This may suggest they are getting ready to set IC-7610s in their place, or it not mean anything at all.
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KA5ROW
Member

Posts: 542


WWW

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« Reply #118 on: September 02, 2017, 02:30:42 PM »

I just had to look and sure enough the 7600's are open item discount. I agree the IC-7610 is just around the corner, and I will buy one, been waiting all year. But someone is dragging there feet. The 7610 should have been out 6 months ago.
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GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




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« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2017, 04:13:04 AM »

........and he's going to dive right in (most likely with the rest of the sheeples).

Geez  Roll Eyes.........
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 04:15:12 AM by GM1FLQ » Logged
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