Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

donate to eham
   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: ICOM IC-7610 Release Date  (Read 64142 times)
K7JQ
Member

Posts: 947




Ignore
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2017, 03:42:12 PM »

Food for thought:
Icom has traditionally reserved a two-receiver radio for its flagship models...recently the 7800 and 7851 in excess of  a $10,000 price point plateau. Now they're coming out with the latest technology SDR designed two-receiver radio, 7610, for a proposed $3,500...with enough specs, bells and whistles to satisfy most high-demand amateurs. Well, according to some forum visitors, it's never "enough" (but they don't want to pay for it) Wink  Maybe this new radio, a possible 7700/7851 killer, will be their new flag-bearer, especially during the decay of Solar Cycle 24, for the foreseeable future. Is Yaesu still manufacturing the FTDX9000? And their next one down, FTDX5000, is now $3,600 after rebate. How well is Kenwood doing with the TS-990? They have nothing between that and the $1,270 TS-590. Elecraft (in my opinion) is a niche player with basically one 100W offering. Flex and Anan (again, in my opinion) are "cult" radios, not what I would call mainstream (yet).

Maybe manufacturers think there will be a significant sales decline during poor propagation, and want to limit their product lines and expensive offerings. Are 200W radios and built-in power supplies a thing of the past? And from what I've heard, SDR radios are less expensive to produce.

Just some idle speculation.....

73,  Bob K7JQ
Logged
N5PG
Member

Posts: 1014




Ignore
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2017, 06:45:43 PM »

Amazing critiques of a rig not yet available Huh Roll Eyes


(Not referring to you, Bob 'JQ)
Logged
KE2TR
Member

Posts: 614




Ignore
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2017, 06:00:46 PM »

I would not call the Flex 6000 series a cult radio, if Icom wants to play with the big boys in the SDR market game the Flex 6500 is the radio it has to beat, right now Flex sales are very good and there have been big numbers seen from ham's who bought the 6300 and traded up to the 6500, this Icom has some stiff competition and radio sales for there flagship top end has nothing to do with the 7610 sales market. The 7851 is like the hi end car market, the same person who buys the top of the line BMW will also buy the 7851, has nothing toi do with value its the experience of ownership and for a superhet/DSP radio it is the absolute best that's out today, there will always be a customer for that radio. Hell while talking with the Icom general sales manager a few years back at the Hartford convention he told me that when they first built and introduced the 7800 they only had planed a total production run of 150 and that was to be it, they never had thought they would need to buy the parts to build any more than the first 150. He told me that there were way off within 6 months they had sold the first 150 and  had back orders for over 300 more. Forget the lab number and sherwoods sheep receiver list just sit your ass down at anyone you may know who has either a 7800 or 7851 and you will see there is still a need for those flagship rigs.
I think if the 7610 competes with with the Flex 6500 and the likes of the TS990 or FTDX 5000 they will sell well but the RX section has to be almost as good as the 7851 to do just that.
Logged
K7JQ
Member

Posts: 947




Ignore
« Reply #108 on: March 29, 2017, 06:02:14 AM »

My apologies to those who may have been insulted or annoyed by my opinion of Flex as a "cult" radio. By no means am I knocking their radios, as they are definitely one of the best performers, hands down. But I'd be willing to bet that most of their purchasers are quite computer literate, and are drawn to the radios for the tinkering and constant upgrades while (mostly) being tethered to a computer. They're modular in nature...a black box having to use an external GUI or hooked to a computer with a GUI, a mouse or knob module for tuning, or an external expensive Maestro. Hardly mainstream for the great majority of hams that want one self-contained box with all the above included. Yes, their sales are very good, but they pale in comparison to those of the big three, especially Icom and Yaesu, with their multiple offerings.

I believe that SDR based radios are the future for peak performance and economy of manufacturing. Icom has taken it to another level with a self-contained box. Others will follow. And yes, there is a market for the 7851...the guy who wants the biggest and the best at any price...a very limited segment. But if the 7610 comes anywhere near its performance and features, Icom may have to rethink whether it's profitable to continue manufacturing them.

Again, just idle speculation. YMMV.
Logged
N6YFM
Member

Posts: 499




Ignore
« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2017, 02:39:12 PM »

My apologies to those who may have been insulted or annoyed by my opinion of Flex as a "cult" radio. By no means am I knocking their radios, as they are definitely one of the best performers, hands down. But I'd be willing to bet that most of their purchasers are quite computer literate, and are drawn to the radios for the tinkering and constant upgrades while (mostly) being tethered to a computer. They're modular in nature...a black box having to use an external GUI or hooked to a computer with a GUI, a mouse or knob module for tuning, or an external expensive Maestro. Hardly mainstream for the great majority of hams that want one self-contained box with all the above included. Yes, their sales are very good, but they pale in comparison to those of the big three, especially Icom and Yaesu, with their multiple offerings.

I believe that SDR based radios are the future for peak performance and economy of manufacturing. Icom has taken it to another level with a self-contained box. Others will follow. And yes, there is a market for the 7851...the guy who wants the biggest and the best at any price...a very limited segment. But if the 7610 comes anywhere near its performance and features, Icom may have to rethink whether it's profitable to continue manufacturing them.

Again, just idle speculation. YMMV.

All good here.
I don't get insulted or annoyed too easy, and believe we are welcome to our opinions.
[Although on mischievous mood days I do display some sarcasm here :-) ]

It is accurate that the comparison tier makes sense between the Icom 7610 and the Flex 6500.
That said, there are more than just numbers and specs;  some people like all-in-one-box self
contained traditional styling, some prefer to use a computer and have the "box" under the table.

A more interesting news item is the glaring omission; it is now one year past the IC-7300
hit-it-out-of-the-ballpark event (Unit sales larger than for any other model from the big 3),
and the silence from Kenwood and Yaesu is deafening.   I think between the Icom 7610,
Flex 6500, and Anan, there is an SDR form factor for everyone to choose from.
But have Kenwood and Yaesu simply pulled up shop and left town (as far as HF in concerned)?

Cheers
Logged
K5TED
Member

Posts: 90




Ignore
« Reply #110 on: March 29, 2017, 08:08:52 PM »

Odd time for major amateur radio manufacturers to pull out of HF. Maybe 2/3 of the Big Three simply aren't up to the price wars.
Logged
GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




Ignore
« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2017, 07:23:29 AM »

Odd time for major amateur radio manufacturers to pull out of HF. Maybe 2/3 of the Big Three simply aren't up to the price wars.

Wonder if the big D will slap on some hefty import tariffs soon and then 3/3 of the big three not up to the price wars.  Grin



 
Logged
N6YFM
Member

Posts: 499




Ignore
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2017, 10:09:51 AM »

Odd time for major amateur radio manufacturers to pull out of HF. Maybe 2/3 of the Big Three simply aren't up to the price wars.

Wonder if the big D will slap on some hefty import tariffs soon and then 3/3 of the big three not up to the price wars.  Grin

Sigh.  Wanna trade? 
I would much rather have Brexit than this psychotic orange chimp in Washington...

Cheers
Logged
GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




Ignore
« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2017, 11:11:15 AM »

Odd time for major amateur radio manufacturers to pull out of HF. Maybe 2/3 of the Big Three simply aren't up to the price wars.

Wonder if the big D will slap on some hefty import tariffs soon and then 3/3 of the big three not up to the price wars.  Grin

Sigh.  Wanna trade?  
I would much rather have Brexit than this psychotic orange chimp in Washington...

Cheers

Would like to keep Brexit thanks but willing to exchange our soft wimps for your man any day.

Looks like our delusional arrogant EU lot are going to get nasty with the UK and exit negotiations haven't even started. I would be less worried having a tough businessman (a la the D) negotiating for us than the current virtue signalling, weak, clueless, PC career politicians that seemingly are what make up all parties, left or right.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 11:13:51 AM by GM1FLQ » Logged
KE2TR
Member

Posts: 614




Ignore
« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2017, 11:25:48 AM »

The Flex radio's seem more for the masses in the radio market, the folks who are just enough involved in how to use there own personal computer is the Flex Radio customer. The Anan camp are the guys/galls who are thoroughly involved with computers or the techie types, IT types who want to play and fiddle to there hearts content but I feel not for the mass radio market. The 7300 is for the person who wants to say I am using an sdr but still wants stand alone and as its stated a great ENTRY LEVEL radio but that's it.
Its not a radio that you would use in a multi multi contest station or multi single station without investing over $2K-$3K in automated band pass filter networking, the second order IMD numbers on that radio show by itself it would fail without help, you need 2nd order numbers above 70 or 80 to do that and the use of coaxial stubs would also help. The real test is for our friends over in EU and there in the back yards of multi KW broadcast station, those guys will tell you all about a receivers shortcomings.
This 7610 has got to be a mighty good RX section before I will can my present rig, I have recently placed a customer dongle with above average mixer/adapter interface to my 3000 which when coming out of the IF out of that radio I already am making use of some excellent band bass filtering in its front end as well as pre amps and attenuators plus some filtering in the mixing devise as well which give with HSSDR and HRD almost full computer control of the radio plus spectrum/waterfall and sub displays as clean as I have seen from a Flex. I am kind of beta testing for a friend but the NR/NB circuits of that 7610 are going to have to be way better for me to make a move and add another $2k investment just to get another slice.
I strongly feel that if this Icom doesn't compete with the Flex 6500 and is priced lower there sales figures will not be as stellar as the 7300 has been, it has to be better.
I have no idea were Kenwood or Yaesu are with the SDR market but since Kenwood is owned by JVC and now Yaesu is back to being Yaesu Musen of Japan instead of Vertex/Motorola they don't have the cash cow commercial markets to support the amateur radio side. Icom on the other hand has had there commercial markets which cover marine, two way, avionics  which have been there cash cow to be able to invest in R&D to be able to get involved in the SDR radio's. You also have to remember that Flex&Anan have been involved in either military or commercial markets which not only has made the amateur market feasible but has lead them to lead the sdr technology over any new comer to these markets.
IMO Icom has a tough act to follow when entering that $3.5K price point, its not only about having the buzz words in there marketing like two slices but being able to have the RX performance to back it up and I think this is were there USA marketing department I hope gets the messages across  to the Japan engineering team. This is were there has always been a loss in translation error with many of there competition.
Logged
ZENKI
Member

Posts: 1421




Ignore
« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »

Its Performance Stupid!

I dont think that the Japanese ham radio companies have completely got this message yet.

The horrible design flaws and engineering that represents 30 year old engineering thinking that is pushed out of their plants today is very disturbing. Its basically putting lipstick on a pig design.

When you cant really improve receiver and transmitter performance for the masses you just dont  want to do it or you just dont get it. The manufacturing costs for producing an excellent radio versus a crap one is almost identical.

The Japanese model  seems to be  to take a crap  design and milk the market by converting it into new models with very little real  improvement. To think that Icom only started to enter the top ranking receiver charts just barely with radios like the IC7700, before that receiver performance stunk and transmitter performance was a disaster. The same could be said for Yaesu with FT5000 and Kenwood only recently with the TS590SG. The Japanese respond very slowly to the idea that performance defines your success and  you dont get there by  putting lipstick on pig designs.

Part of the problem  is that hams have themselves to blame for  just   blindly accepting and  buying their junk  and by not being critical consumers demanding performance.
Performance car buyers or cell phone buyers would be screaming  if they got treated the same way ham manufacturers treat their loyal customer  base.

We contrast the ham manufacturers  poor thinking with that of the Japanese Automotive makers who recently have finally got the message that  its both performance and packaging  that makes  their cars sell and beat the competition. Before this happened the Japanese automotive makers were using the same model as the ham radio manufacturers. Just putting lipstick on pretty pigs that  had no performance or appeal to most performance car enthusiast. Now they finally get it and are releasing some decent high performance cars that can take on any car in the world and are packaged well.

Hopefully Icom will get the message that unless their new SDR radios deliver the  the maximum performance and features that the Technology can deliver today  radios like the IC7610 will just be another radio that is a  pig with lipstick on it.

They cant cripple technology for their business model. Samsung or Apple would not take this  stupid approach because it would kill their reputations.  Yet ham companies will deliver year after year, crap receiver performance, crap transmitter performance and cripple features that technology will allow them to deliver in todays market. Its even worst for them when back yarders and experimenters can deliver better features and performance while tinkering!  What a pity  it would be  to release a radio that  cant perform better than what you can homebrew or buy in a kit! Theres many of these micro IC7610 like radios for sale on Ebay running on 10 inch TFT  screens that deliver the potential of  what the SDR platform is capable of.

Time will tell  if the Icom 7610 will be the first crippled DDC/DUC  SDR  boxed front panel radio that sets out defeat the potential of what the SDR  technology can deliver.

Its very simple. A high performance receiver and transmitter and a S-meter scale that is calibrated. Ebay dongle SDR transmitter and receivers can do this for 100 dollars lets see if Icom can deliver these performance minimums for 4000 US dollars. Maybe pigs can fly  from Japan.

 Yeah it  is "performance stupid"

IMO Icom has a tough act to follow when entering that $3.5K price point, its not only about having the buzz words in there marketing like two slices but being able to have the RX performance to back it up and I think this is were there USA marketing department I hope gets the messages across  to the Japan engineering team. This is were there has always been a loss in translation error with many of there competition.
Logged
KE2TR
Member

Posts: 614




Ignore
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2017, 05:54:20 PM »

I could live with an S meter that is not perfect but the RX and if you can get good TX performance that would be good enough for now. I com has not had a completion grade radio until the 7700/7800 hit the streets, the 7600 was kind of light in the RX department but light years above those Pro III's which had zero front end selectivity. Hell the older FT1000MP would eat those early Icom DSP radio's all day long but like sheep that front display sold the radio's kind of like sheep lining up for slaughter.  Yaesu after discontinuing there FT1000MK5 lineup  got lost with those horrible FT2000 and FTDX9000 series radio's, these things were half baked designs but Motorola I guess was to blame but around the time the FTDX5000 came to light Yaesu in Japan was getting more involved with the design and the 3000,1200 were back with Yaesu Musen of Japan doing what Motorola could not do, Motorola thought they too could design a good DSP radio but crappy roofing filters just could not do what many of the competition using lower designed IF's could. Kenwood got back into this hobby with the 590 that brought them back into the hobby again but its not the Kenwood TRio company of years past. Icom did pull out all the stops with there 7851, that radio is a work of art IMO but is way past what I personally feel like spending on this hobby these days. The 7300 is one of the most excellent ENTRY LEVEL radio but thats were it lies for me its still only entry level.
I would like to se both Kenwood and Yaesu come out with an SDR but IMO they seem to be no so involved with it but they had better cause the first years sales of the 7300 should be an eye opener for them both. I think Icom is in a much better position to pull off there next step but we will see.   
Logged
GM1FLQ
Member

Posts: 794




Ignore
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2017, 04:54:25 AM »

........... those Pro III's which had zero front end selectivity. Hell the older FT1000MP would eat those early Icom DSP radio's all day long but like sheep that front display sold the radio's kind of like sheep lining up for slaughter..........    

..........and sticking "Pro" somewhere in the model name is also good for a load of extra sales from sheeple.
These much over-rated/over-hyped headsets with "Pro" in the name is another prime example.

I often found that many Pro owners were very keen to let you know that is what they were running.......as if it were some kind of special trophy that required you to heap praise and respect upon them.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 04:59:49 AM by GM1FLQ » Logged
N6YFM
Member

Posts: 499




Ignore
« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2017, 11:04:36 AM »

........... those Pro III's which had zero front end selectivity. Hell the older FT1000MP would eat those early Icom DSP radio's all day long but like sheep that front display sold the radio's kind of like sheep lining up for slaughter..........    

..........and sticking "Pro" somewhere in the model name is also good for a load of extra sales from sheeple.
These much over-rated/over-hyped headsets with "Pro" in the name is another prime example.

I often found that many Pro owners were very keen to let you know that is what they were running.......as if it were some kind of special trophy that required you to heap praise and respect upon them.  Roll Eyes

:-)  Fully agreed!

Hey, maybe we should petition the FCC (Federal Candy Company) with the idea of introducing a "Pro" license class, above the current top "Extra" class.   It could use the same technical test content as "Technician", or even CB license, but then add a section for Ego, Chest Feather Puffing Skills, and how to project that that extra Special attitude.
I suppose one additional test section could cover "Herding Sheeples" and also "We're Special, how to let everyone else know it" skills.

Don't forget the psychology aspect;
http://www.amateurradio.com/study-finds-anomaly-with-amateur-radio-operators/

I used to watch Saturday Night Live, but lately these forums (and also the daily news) are providing all the entertainment I can handle :-)  :-)

Cheers
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 11:07:25 AM by N6YFM » Logged
SWMAN
Member

Posts: 1066




Ignore
« Reply #119 on: April 04, 2017, 12:48:57 PM »

YFM,  Now that's funny !! Right On !!
Oh, the Orange Chimp in Washington really looks yellow to me.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:51:57 PM by SWMAN » Logged
Pages: Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!