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Author Topic: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?  (Read 34397 times)
KE2TR
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Posts: 616




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« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2017, 05:38:42 PM »

I don't wish any company to close shop and drift away but Flex has got to learn that unreal release dates do more harm than good to ham's who want there products, maybe try being honest and say early 2018 we will se product would be more realistic. As far as TenTec they were there own worst enemy with poor upper management calling the shots and the folks on there assembly lines are who I feel sorry for. Electraft has been ridding the big west coast surfer wave for a long time but there running out of beach cause the new SDR market has put a huge dent in there steam. Icom has brought real innovation for a down to earth price with there 7300 and maybe the next radio may be out possibly before Flex.
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VE3WGO
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Posts: 151




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« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2017, 06:37:00 PM »

well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

I think the cellphone/smartphone design companies were the ones who popularized this silly notion with their "pre-order" category requiring a down payment toward the new-but-not-yet-completed product.  What an amazing concept that works surprisingly well for them, because droves of people can't wait to get the newest model so they have been convinced to "pre-order".   So this "pre-order" reservation technique psychologically locks a potential customer in to the new product because of the promised delivery date which the design company knows is a blatant lie, but if the true delivery date were told, far fewer customers would likely be interested in putting down the reservation fee and would possibly shop elsewhere for a competing product.  So it's a gamble by the company to lie and risk losing fewer pre-orders when delays are announced, than they would have if the real (later) delivery date were admitted in the first place.

So, rule of thumb:  if a product is demonstrated and the vendor or manufacturer is announcing that they will take preorders, let that be a clear enough sign to you that the delivery date is probably fake.

And if you still want to pre-order, don't complain when the delivery date slips.

73, Ed VE3WGO
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KS4JU
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Posts: 56




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« Reply #137 on: October 27, 2017, 08:40:56 AM »

Actually, Flex has sold out their first production run of 6400M, 6600M, 6400, and 6600 radios. These radios were bought by customers who "reserved" one. Flex is still saying that they expect shipping for the M models will begin in November and the 6400 and 6600 around December. Of course these times could slip as with any preproduction product. New orders won't be delivered until after the first of the year. Flex has done a reasonably decent job keeping customers in the loop via email. The mainboards of the units have been produced and allegedly the radios are being assembled now.

Flex also redesigned the rather plain front panels of the 6400 and 6600 to include a large dimmable back lit blue Flex swoosh for some extra eye candy.

Mainboards and New Front Panel
https://imgur.com/a/TyN0j

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:54:41 AM by KS4JU » Logged
W6UV
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Posts: 789




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« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2017, 09:11:45 AM »

well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

Have you ever participated in an engineering development organization attempting to deliver a complex product? If you have then you know that development engineering isn't like building a house, where the amount of time required to build one is well-known and varies little. You run into unexpected issues that take time to solve. This often pushes a schedule out by weeks or months. Coming up with a schedule for engineering projects is often more art than science.

Rather than attributing Flex's product delivery delays to lying, perhaps it's because, like all complex engineering projects, they're running into difficulties they didn't anticipate.
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N6YFM
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Posts: 502




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« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2017, 05:27:56 PM »

well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

Have you ever participated in an engineering development organization attempting to deliver a complex product? If you have then you know that development engineering isn't like building a house, where the amount of time required to build one is well-known and varies little. You run into unexpected issues that take time to solve. This often pushes a schedule out by weeks or months. Coming up with a schedule for engineering projects is often more art than science.

Rather than attributing Flex's product delivery delays to lying, perhaps it's because, like all complex engineering projects, they're running into difficulties they didn't anticipate.

Yes,  I am an engineer at a commercial computer manufacturer.  Yes, I am aware that complex projects can not be estimated the same
way as ship building where you can weld this many or that many linear feet of steel plate per hour.

That said;   Flex kept telling people they would be shipping earlier.  They keep tossing out "fuzzy" dates and claiming the first batch
would be shipping by now.   Since they are not publicly traded, what would have been so difficult as simply saying;  There are some
last minute supplier and parts issues, and it will take us until approx Feb 2018 to ship.  

Instead, at all recent trade shows, they make it sound as though early buyers get theirs now (First week Nov 2017), but if you
order today, it is Feb or March 2018.    OK, excuse me;   Where are the first buyers who got their Flex units?  Are they on the
forums talking about them?   Posting reviews?

As an engineer, let me assure you that there is a large difference between "Complexity" and "Open Honesty".
But usually, it is the public Wallstreet firms that simply can't be open and honest (for various valid reasons).  
Flex, on the other hand, confuses me.  They simply won't be open about stuff.  It's ALWAYS "spin".

Neal
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:34:49 PM by N6YFM » Logged
N6YFM
Member

Posts: 502




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« Reply #140 on: November 14, 2017, 01:06:51 PM »

Now that Icom has released USA pricing of $4,000 for the IC-7610, a lot of people will
decide they can wait until the Flex 6400M ships, and people can then compare the
performance of the two with actual shipping samples.

Interesting threshold;  At $3,499, a lot more people would just jump in, but for $4,000,
a number more will hesitate and want some real world reports and comparisons.

A number of us were speculating that the extra $500 in retail price for the IC-7610 came
from the "problem" discovered at Dayton Hamvention;  that the traditional single set of
bandpass filters was not going to work well enough, requiring the late addition of the
expensive Digi-Sel relay switched-L pre-filters.  But that is, speculation.   In some way,
the final price shot past the intended earlier target of $3499.

Neal
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W6UV
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Posts: 789




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« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2017, 01:20:10 PM »

One thing I wonder about the 6400"M" -- is Flex buying enough of the Dell tablet used by these rigs to meet the lifetime demand? The tablet market has short lifecycles and I wouldn't be surprised if Dell supersedes the particular model used in the 6400M in the not too distant future.
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W9OY
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Posts: 1820


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« Reply #142 on: November 15, 2017, 01:44:00 PM »

I don't think the M radios use Dell tablets.  The Maestro uses that
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W6UV
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Posts: 789




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« Reply #143 on: November 15, 2017, 05:30:36 PM »

I don't think the M radios use Dell tablets.  The Maestro uses that

So the M models drive the LCD display directly from one of the microprocessors in the rig?
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KE2TR
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Posts: 616




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« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2017, 07:55:19 AM »

Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.
As far as Flex goes they have shipped there new amp but the ones I have heard on the air have some IMD issues, last night I heard a local fellow in NJ who runs a tight ship always and I mean always and another fellow who is local to me on LI both were 30 over S9, the fellow was using an Expert 1.3K. The fellow on LI was slide ruler style signal on the pan adapter with no spurs of any IMD, the felllow from NJ was about the same but the hash style IMD was there beyond the sidebands, BTW both were using Flex 6500 or 6700 radio's. I said to the fellow on NJ that he should have kept his Acom 2000A which he was always ruler flat clean on the display. Not trying to side track the thread but the only SS amp's I have seen that have never been IMD problems were the Acom 600, and a well run not over driven Expert jobs, the Ameritron 1300 series, the little Electrafts all seem to not be the cleanest as far as IMD products.
I don'y know but Flex may have issues as far as parts are concerned which just be the fly in the soup as far as delivery, that is always a big issue event months before production when there buy secures delivery dates there is always one that will not deliver there parts in the timely manner they originally predicted. This is were Icom being a much larger global company for communication equipment has more pull with there vendors and Flex who is a little company has not been around long enough to have that type of power over there supply chain.
The average ham doesn't really realize how difficult it is to bring a radio to this marketplace these day, they want something and they want it NOW nor six months from now so as of now Icoms radio is a little late from original predictions but it looks like Flex is going to be later maybe much later. Icom was smart cause they know that the ham's who can afford the $4k radio will buy this for themselves as a Xmas  gift to themselves so getting these radio's out before Xmas was a good idea plus there production line is set up not only to fill there existing orders but have enough for dealers to have some stock for sale, they have been around the block with this before like when they first introduced the IC7800 and only produced 150 on there first run thinking they would not sell them off right away but in less than a few weeks these 7800's were sold out and they had to scramble to get the parts for an over 300 back order list and that radio was price well over what the 7610 is at.
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K0YQ
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Posts: 1276




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« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2017, 08:06:36 AM »

Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.


Sold!

Really wanna sell me?  Have 2 RX antenna inputs with a phasing device like the NCC-2 built in.  $3K.
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K6JH
Member

Posts: 402




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« Reply #146 on: November 16, 2017, 02:05:16 PM »

Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.


Sold!

Really wanna sell me?  Have 2 RX antenna inputs with a phasing device like the NCC-2 built in.  $3K.


How about a free software update to allow for phasing the two antennas? The hardware is already there, and this would make for a nice update ala the way they handled the 7600.
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73
Jim K6JH
N2RJ
Member

Posts: 2014




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« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2017, 02:54:15 PM »

The 6k series and Maestro PWBs are made at a contract manufacturer in Austin, close to Flex.

Chinese food ?  I've had some damned good food in Hong Kong and Beijing. I mean really good.


I’ve actually been to the facility. That is 100% correct.

The amps are made by Sky Sat aka 4O3A in Montenegro.
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VE3WGO
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Posts: 151




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« Reply #148 on: Yesterday at 06:39:23 PM »

Now on Flex's Buy pages, they announced the 6400, 6400M, 6600, and 6600M availability as: "Shipment estimated in early 2018".    Does that mean the first shipments in 2018 are for the current crop of pre-orders already in, or is that the shipping date for a radio that is ordered now?

On the Buy page, the only things in stock are Maestro and the Radiosport headset.  The 6700 and 6500 are listed as "This item is not yet available for shipment".     Seems odd...  does Flex always build to order?

I suppose retail dealers may have stock, though.

73, Ed VE3WGO
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K7JQ
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Posts: 949




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« Reply #149 on: Yesterday at 07:45:09 PM »

Now on Flex's Buy pages, they announced the 6400, 6400M, 6600, and 6600M availability as: "Shipment estimated in early 2018".    Does that mean the first shipments in 2018 are for the current crop of pre-orders already in, or is that the shipping date for a radio that is ordered now?

On the Buy page, the only things in stock are Maestro and the Radiosport headset.  The 6700 and 6500 are listed as "This item is not yet available for shipment".     Seems odd...  does Flex always build to order?

I suppose retail dealers may have stock, though.

73, Ed VE3WGO

I wasn't aware that Flex products are also sold through other retail dealers. I believe you can only buy direct through their website.
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