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Author Topic: "Tire kicking"  (Read 8288 times)
W9FIB
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Posts: 2094




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« on: August 15, 2017, 05:00:41 AM »

So I see so many complaints about people supposedly "tire kicking". My question is, when your the seller, and I as the buyer have a few questions, when does it change from gathering information to make an educated decision to "tire kicking"? Or maybe we just can't reach an equitable deal...again, "tire kicking", or a simple buy/not buy decision based on price?

Maybe I see an interesting looking piece of equipment and would like to learn a bit more about it. Or maybe it is a model I am not familiar with, so I may be looking for some feature that the piece in front of me may or may not have. Or maybe I am trying to establish a bit of history of the item. Or maybe I am trying to find out why it is being sold...like is it broken, or is a failure by the manufacturer to produce what they promised, or has it been modified or not, etc.

So, where is that magic line?

Seems to me good salesmanship would be to answer the potential customers questions regardless if they buy or not. Because they remember that you took the time and possibly buy from you another time. Sometimes if you want to sell an item, you need to "sell" it. Even if that means you may waste some time answering questions from customers who choose not to buy for reasons you may never know and assume they were "tire kickers" just there to waste your time.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W9BB
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 06:02:55 AM »

Goes both ways.  If you are looking for a radio let's say, do your homework up front.  Try and be adult about it so if you have questions, it makes sense to the Seller.
1.  What bands does the radio cover.
2.  What modes and/or options normally come with the radio.
3.  What do you plan to use the radio for, will it meet those demands.
4.  When was the radio last manufactured.
5.   etc.

About the only thing I usually encounter from intelligent potential buyers are if I could send a few additional pics as many swap boards only allow for 1 picture/photo in the posting.  sometimes a buyer would like to see a few more angles or the rear, etc.

When as a potential buyer I tell someone "consider it sold", I take it to mean, this individual will be sending the funding shortly, not after a few days, a couple more questions come, or requests.  That isn't buying the item, it is either getting the Seller to "hold on to the item under the guise it may be sold" just so the buyer can continue to shop around from the check out line. 

When I tell a seller I am buying it, consider it sold, sending the funds, it means just that.  I have bought the item and the funds are being mailed, electronically sent, etc.  I don't make up BS lies a couple of days later that the photos show damage or scratches on the item from a camera flash distortion when they pics do not just so I can back out of a committment.  To me, that is tire kicking, I was never serious about buying it to start with or likely, didn't even have the funds or okay from mom.

As a buyer, you need to be educated about the item you are interested in, ask your questions up front, and then come back at some time with a decision but not to jerk the Seller around into thinking it is sold based upon false promises.  By all means, ask, educate yourself, make a decision and then contact the Buyer with your actual intent.

"Seriously Interested" means nothing to me.  I tell folks if they are buying my item, confirm it with me and tell me when the funds are sent so I can update or delete a posting.  all too often someone says "consider it sold" and then does nothing more and in the mean time as a seller, you turn away someone else because you are under a false commitment that someone bought the time when in fact they lied about it.

Being an informed buyer is the buyers responsibility.  Asking a few questions is okay as long as you don't keep stringing it along for days.  Make a decision.
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W9FIB
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 06:52:35 AM »

OK I am at a swapfest and see a rig I am not totally familiar with, but may fit my needs based on what I do know, and the price is within what I would pay. I should not try to ask questions about it because I am "uninformed"? Avoid anything I don't have 100% knowledge of? How would I know the history of the item in advance? Or modifications in advance? Was it pulled out of a flood and restored? For older rigs, has it been recapped?

Example: I saw a nice looking SB200 at a swapfest. Reasonable price. Only by talking with the seller did I find out it had been modified to 6M only. Nothing on the faceplate was changed from stock. Same knobs and markings. How would I have known that in advance? Where would I go to be pre-educated for that? So is it my fault that I didn't know ahead of time about the modification? That knowing in advance about an SB200 did no good in this case, wouldn't you agree?

Also my question has nothing to do with "consider it sold". That is a whole different thread and a whole different set of issues. And I agree with most of the posts there that saying "consider it sold" is meaningless and would not stop me from selling to someone else that "shows me the money".

See this is why I ask the question originally. I just don't get it.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W9BB
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Posts: 1372




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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 08:31:39 AM »

One thing to talk face to face at a hamfest, that is all part of the dance.  Over swap boards, the internet is there to help you get info.  ARRL has equipment reviews posted as well.  Very informative.  All depends what you want and want to use the item for....
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N3QE
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 08:58:08 AM »

Not obvious whether you are talking about internet sale or a hamfest sale.

I think there's a big advantage to a hamfest seller, if he has 120VAC or 12VDC as appropriate to have the rig lit up on the table. Maybe there's nothing to listen to but band noise but that's better than nothing.

Yes you will draw more tire kickers and folks that want to turn the knobs and learn about the rig but you're also more likely to make a sale.
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W9BB
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 10:43:15 AM »

Yep, a real sale...cash seals it at a hamfest...not "I'll be back later"....LOL
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W9FIB
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Posts: 2094




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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 11:01:18 AM »

Not obvious whether you are talking about internet sale or a hamfest sale.

I think there's a big advantage to a hamfest seller, if he has 120VAC or 12VDC as appropriate to have the rig lit up on the table. Maybe there's nothing to listen to but band noise but that's better than nothing.

Yes you will draw more tire kickers and folks that want to turn the knobs and learn about the rig but you're also more likely to make a sale.

Actually I am referring to both.

Our club provides a test table with 120 and 12 volt hookups for people to test equipment at our swapfest. It is a fairly popular feature. Wish more places did this.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W9FIB
Member

Posts: 2094




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 11:08:17 AM »

One thing to talk face to face at a hamfest, that is all part of the dance.  Over swap boards, the internet is there to help you get info.  ARRL has equipment reviews posted as well.  Very informative.  All depends what you want and want to use the item for....

Yes I know that. But you failed to address the questions I suggested above that are beyond owners manuals, reviews, internet searches, etc. When does that go from being informed buyer who can make an informed decision to "tire kicking"?
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
AC7CW
Member

Posts: 961




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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 10:40:34 AM »

One thing to talk face to face at a hamfest, that is all part of the dance.  Over swap boards, the internet is there to help you get info.  ARRL has equipment reviews posted as well.  Very informative.  All depends what you want and want to use the item for....

Yes I know that. But you failed to address the questions I suggested above that are beyond owners manuals, reviews, internet searches, etc. When does that go from being informed buyer who can make an informed decision to "tire kicking"?

I don't know... probably somebody can sort that out for you? Somebody needs to step up and answer this burning question of Ham Radio! I'm not up to it, that's for sure... Maybe you should take lessons in selling? For openers: ABC stands for Always Be Closing. You don't sell an item, you sell a whole new life of  Ham Radio! You sell a glorious future of awards and public service, you get a buyer to visualize a picture of his legacy: A statue in the town square!

I hate people that can't take time to answer questions and want to start closing on a deal because I hate making uninformed decisions, for sure... If somebody calls me a tire kicker just for trying to get what I'm shopping for I'll bang 'em out most likely... "Call me a tire kicker will 'ya, I'm coming over this vendor table, I'll show ya my kicking you little piece of.." Oops, sorry I went off into a little fantasy there, too much cw over the years...
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
W9BB
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Posts: 1372




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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 02:52:08 PM »

One thing to talk face to face at a hamfest, that is all part of the dance.  Over swap boards, the internet is there to help you get info.  ARRL has equipment reviews posted as well.  Very informative.  All depends what you want and want to use the item for....

Yes I know that. But you failed to address the questions I suggested above that are beyond owners manuals, reviews, internet searches, etc. When does that go from being informed buyer who can make an informed decision to "tire kicking"?

It can vary.  I had a guy ask about whether I had an item for sale, and answered yes.
Asked about the price being firm, I answered.  All good and fair questions.

Asked what my payment terms were, I told him, but told him it was posted in the posting.

Asked if my address is good (I sent it), I told him he could verify in the ULS and/or QRZ (which I provided in a response earlier).

Asked about the final price (which again, I pointed him back to the posting, it was all in there).

Tire kicker, no.  Not paying attention perhaps, could be.  But I answered accordingly and with all the pertinent details and more.

A typical tire kicker I have run into will ask about the item, what extra pics, which I comply and send.  Then asks some of the same questions as above.  No problem.

Tells me the payment was sent.  After a week, I ask about the payment, get an excuse that he was busy.  Tells me the XYL is sending the payment. Okay.  I am in no rush.

Another week, you got it, no payment.

Send email again about payment, didn't get to it.  Meanwhile, I gathered up some packing stuff, disconnected the item, gathered its stuff together.  Another few days, another excuse.

Sign on the dotted line and put some money down, but don't waste my time.  Obviously, not a serious individual. Window shopping, tying me up with BS. Yeah, I could sell it to the next guy  if one shows up, but if the payment shows up, now one or the other gets po'd because I opted to sell from "under" them because of a "shopper".  Not a buyer.

The examples are numerous but not typing all day.

Back to CW>
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W9FIB
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Posts: 2094




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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 06:03:31 PM »

Thanks Chris! That now makes it much clearer and can concur with the meaning.
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Happy being an Amateur Extra!
Nothing says CB on my printed license.
Ares/Races but no lights or crown vic.
W9BB
Member

Posts: 1372




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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 10:30:30 AM »

10-4..uh..did I say that out loud?  Oops...
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AH7I
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Posts: 75


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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 01:03:26 PM »

A tire kicker is someone who is in the contemplative stage of giving up his money. He's testing the waters to see how he feels about it. If you make him feel good, you'll sell him something, even if he can't afford the particular tire he's kicking.
73, -Bob ah7i
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N2RRA
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 10:33:01 PM »

So I see so many complaints about people supposedly "tire kicking". My question is, when your the seller, and I as the buyer have a few questions, when does it change from gathering information to make an educated decision to "tire kicking"? Or maybe we just can't reach an equitable deal...again, "tire kicking", or a simple buy/not buy decision based on price?

Maybe I see an interesting looking piece of equipment and would like to learn a bit more about it. Or maybe it is a model I am not familiar with, so I may be looking for some feature that the piece in front of me may or may not have. Or maybe I am trying to establish a bit of history of the item. Or maybe I am trying to find out why it is being sold...like is it broken, or is a failure by the manufacturer to produce what they promised, or has it been modified or not, etc.

So, where is that magic line?

Seems to me good salesmanship would be to answer the potential customers questions regardless if they buy or not. Because they remember that you took the time and possibly buy from you another time. Sometimes if you want to sell an item, you need to "sell" it. Even if that means you may waste some time answering questions from customers who choose not to buy for reasons you may never know and assume they were "tire kickers" just there to waste your time.

For online sale:

Why would you bother the seller for specification information when you can easily obtain that information prior to contacting the seller?

Only thing I asked the seller is..... has the radio been in a smoker environment, or smell like smoke? Are there any issues at all with the unit? Has it ever been maintenanced, or modified in anyway? Last, but not least verify to be clear the condition in reference to any deep scratches or dings just to make sure even if they've already specified in their ad. I may also ask if they can send additional pictures with good lighting. Lighting in a photo can definitely change the look of a radio. A good seller should even be willing to provide a video of the unit working, or condition of an item.

It's very simple after that. It's either a yes or a no.

You start asking any other kind of ridiculous questions just to say no anyway then you're a damn tire kicker. You wasted the person's time and that's just a plain simple fact. When I sell an item I get sometimes a half a dozen to a dozen people contacting me. I would say in my experience I have found 90% wind up being window shoppers and tire kickers. It becomes frustrating total nonsense and probably better off, because those are the characteristics of people that are unrealistic and wind giving you the biggest problems.

Hamfeast:

Wheeling and dealing whole other story like apples and oranges. Even then, couple of questions above would still apply and so does the stipulation. If I'm at a hamfeast, or store I search google for better prices, technical issue history and data information. I mean, step into the 21st. century already.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 10:46:06 PM by N2RRA » Logged
W9BB
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Posts: 1372




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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2017, 10:51:57 AM »

Here is a classic for me.  Told me on 3 separate emails was getting the funds, made up a BS excuse that my over exposed pics reflected damage to the item, (this was after he determined he didn't have the funds), and decided to make that a valid reason to back out.  No big deal to me.  Days earlier, I had told N9RG I updated the posts to reflect it has been sold to his call, no comments.  I kept all the emails, and to me, this is a classic tire kicker.  Didn't have the money to begin with, makes lame promises on sending the funds and then in the end comes up with an excuse, rather than just say, I can't do the funds right now.  I am very patient and would have told this guy, contact me when you do, and if I have it we can talk then, rather then stringing this along for a week or more.

Cut and Paste of some of the emails:

1.    Is item still available. (Response:  Yes)
2.   What forms of payment do you accept (Response:  Cashiers check, MO or Pay Pal if you pay the fees since I will be paying the shipping):  Red Flag:  That was all contained in the posting about payment methods.  Scratch of the head, why asking yet again?
3.   Will get funds tomorrow on my way home from work and put into my account.
4.   Email next day (no funds sent or indicated being sent contrary to previous email):  On my way home, are we still on?  (Response:  Yes, I have updated the postings as “SOLD to N9RG”. No response to that email.
5.   Email later:  Do you have pics of the radio.  (Response: What I posted but will get some more).  His response, that is okay (not required?  Took some quick shots anyway, pulled radio out of service, disconnected all cables, etc. just to provide some add’l pics – Radio was posted as excellent condition, pretty much new in appearance).  Red Flag:  Why wasn’t this requested initially instead of committal to purchase (odd).  Pics had been taken with a flash and over exposed.  I told him I could take it out into natural lighting and re-do it.
6.   Email next day:  Didn ‘t get funds into account.  May be a couple more days.  (Response:  Just let me know and will watch for it).
7.   Email later:  Go ahead and sell the radio.  I won’t have the funds in the account for a couple more days.  (Response:  I can wait, in no hurry).
8.   Email later that day:  Looked at the pics and there are defects on the bezel and a couple on the other side (Response:  There are no marks, dents, defects, etc.  Pic isn’t the best lit photo but nothing is evident what you claim to see).  Three individuals looked at the pics for me and identified NO defects, just the pics are over exposed.  Informed N9RG of that, but....
9.   No more responses. 

I wasn't out of any money or product, he didn't scam me (fortunately), he was just jumping on something without having the funds and tied me up while I indicated he had been sold to his call.  In retrospect, I should have said, "If someone wants it and comes up with the funds, I will sell it, if you get your funding together, just let me know, as I wont' be holding for anyone".  I tried to be patient and understanding and in the end, I get some BS excuse. Just be adult and say it, "I don't have any money right now, but I want it.  When I get my funding act together, I will contact you, and I hope you still have it". 

But...that is how some folks operate.  I think I was more then bending over backwards...
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