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Author Topic: its only a hobby untill...  (Read 5627 times)
N9AOP
Member

Posts: 642




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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2017, 02:36:16 PM »

Plankeye, I don't disagree with you but ham radio seems to be a mirror on society in general.  Just look at the bullshit on social media.  You can find better behaved grammar school students than that.
Art
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PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2017, 03:51:16 PM »

N9AOP

Plankeye, I don't disagree with you but ham radio seems to be a mirror on society in general.  Just look at the bullshit on social media.  You can find better behaved grammar school students than that.
Art


__

PLANKEYE

I don't disagree with you when you say ham radio seems to be a mirror on society in general.  Ham radio has rules that are not enforced by the FCC social media has no rules.  It's what you get when you have no rules or rules that are not enforced.  Ham radio is just a hobby.  If you want to do more become a Police Dispatcher or a something along that line of work.  Those folks actually walk the walk and are held accountable for what they do or don't do.  Just relax and enjoy this hobby it is nothing more than that   "A HOBBY".
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N8AUC
Member

Posts: 315




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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2017, 05:49:58 PM »

eric,
is there a curriculum for emcomm, if not maybe that would be an interesting program to have for folks to improve skills on their own .  how to run the nets , what modes worked well in Puerto Rico and what things can be improved on.  i hope an honest AAR with some items that need improvement and this should include fema and arc so that more cohesive bonds can be established.  continuous quality improvement should be a goal.  like we do in trauma centers and mass casualty events.  we have 50 folks that worked there and we need to gather what worked and what dis not, incorporating fema and ARC and salvation army into the program, this would demonstrate ARRL's commitment to forging a bridge with the other major responders to become more integrated in response. along with a training program to demonstrate our willingness to provide communications as needed.

alex
kc9pwt

Alex,
I don't know of a standardized, nationwide curriculum for emcomm.
I would check with your ARRL section leadership to find out what they do in your area.

By the way, when you participate in an event, exercise, or response that is run under NIMS/ICS
(and almost everything is these days), you will always have a hot-wash afterwards, which leads
to an after-action report. That's part of NIMS/ICS. Feedback (what worked well and what didn't),
and continuous improvement is all part of the system. I wouldn't expect to see any AAR's for the
recent hurricane events for a few months, even longer for Puerto Rico since the response is
still active.

In Ohio, we tell new ARES volunteers to start by taking IS-100, IS-200, IS-700, and IC-800.
This will get you the necessary introduction to NIMS and ICS. This is free, and online through
FEMA.gov. Your local EMA/served agencies may have additional online courses they want you
to take. Don't be surprised if they do. Our county adds IS-701, IS-706, and IS-802 to the above list.

The ARRL EC-001 course is also a good one. I was fortunate to be able to take that in person.
Jim, KC8PD (SK) used to teach that one in a classroom setting. Prerequisites were IS-100 and
IS-700. ARRL offers this online, but it's not free. It is, however, worthwhile. Especially if your
mentor has direct experience. I was very fortunate to have KC8PD as an instructor, because
he deployed as part of the response to Hurricane Katrina. He not only knew what he was
teaching, but because of his direct experience, he knew WHY it was being taught.

I would also recommend taking the FEMA taught, AUXCOMM course if you can find
one in your area. DARA used to sponsor one of these during the 3 days right before
Hamvention (and they covered the cost too). AUXCOMM isn't free. Someone (usually a served
agency) covers the cost, but there isn't a cost to the student, other than travel, food, and
lodging if needed, because you must take this one in person. This one usually is usually either
2 days at 10 hours per day, or 3 days at 6-7 hours per day. This course is off-the-charts good
and I can not overstate how worthwhile it is. When I took this course, you had to have
completed IS-100,200,700, and 800 first, and have your certificates on hand the first day
of the course, because the instructors checked. If you didn't have them, you were sent home.

As you complete these courses, make sure to keep the PDF certificate files, as well as a
printed copy of the certificates. I don't know what they do in your state, but in Ohio we
maintain a statewide database of ARES volunteers who have completed the training courses.
So check with your county EC, and your Section EC to see what they do in your area.
In Ohio, many jurisdictions will not permit you to enter, or volunteer in an EOC without this
training. Which is why the Ohio Section maintains the database. This will vary from area to
area, and state to state though.

Hope this helps! Best of luck to you!

73 de N8AUC
Eric


« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 06:01:11 PM by N8AUC » Logged
N8AUC
Member

Posts: 315




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2017, 06:15:58 PM »

N9AOP

Plankeye, I don't disagree with you but ham radio seems to be a mirror on society in general.  Just look at the bullshit on social media.  You can find better behaved grammar school students than that.
Art


__

PLANKEYE

I don't disagree with you when you say ham radio seems to be a mirror on society in general.  Ham radio has rules that are not enforced by the FCC social media has no rules.  It's what you get when you have no rules or rules that are not enforced.  Ham radio is just a hobby.  If you want to do more become a Police Dispatcher or a something along that line of work.  Those folks actually walk the walk and are held accountable for what they do or don't do.  Just relax and enjoy this hobby it is nothing more than that   "A HOBBY".

The rules are the rules, and if you hold a license, you indicated that you knew what they were when you passed
your test, and you agreed to abide by them when you signed your license. Everyone did. I have found over the
years that that most hams (greater than 90%) are honorable men and women, who are true to their word.

If Amateur Radio is nothing more than "just a hobby" to you, then that's fine. Enjoy it as just a hobby.

But just because you have observed individuals who refuse to honor their word, or don't think they have to
because no one is forcing them to (and they ARE out there), that is not a valid reason to diminish or impugn
the efforts of those who want to voluntarily be of service to others, and the communities in which they live.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 06:24:48 PM by N8AUC » Logged
PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2017, 06:25:56 PM »

Eric, great info but I think the first thing we need to do before we enlist ham operators into the emergency communications part of anything is make the test harder to obtain to become a ham in the first place.  The second thing is the FCC needs to enforce the rules already in place.  Once we get that figured out then maybe we can talk about emergency communication stuff regarding ham radio.  I like that you are optimistic but not realistic and that is OK.  Kinda like running into a nursing home when you need a Police Officer.  Relax man it's just a hobby.    
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N8AUC
Member

Posts: 315




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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2017, 08:25:31 PM »

Eric, great info but I think the first thing we need to do before we enlist ham operators into the emergency communications part of anything is make the test harder to obtain to become a ham in the first place.  The second thing is the FCC needs to enforce the rules already in place.  Once we get that figured out then maybe we can talk about emergency communication stuff regarding ham radio.  I like that you are optimistic but not realistic and that is OK.  Kinda like running into a nursing home when you need a Police Officer.  Relax man it's just a hobby.    

Not realistic?
You haven't been where I've been, done what I've done, or seen what I've seen.
You have no clue what's realistic and what isn't. You just think you do. And for now, that's OK.

I agree that we need sterner enforcement from the FCC. You're spot on with that comment.
And while we're at it, let's get the DOJ to stop being soft on the ones who are caught and
prosecuted. I am sick and tired of seeing convicted individuals get $20K fines reduced to
$300 because "the poor baby can't afford it". There needs to be some teeth behind that
enforcement as well.

More difficult tests? Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. But given where we are at the
moment, if a newbie ends up getting involved with our ARES groups, they get elmered
and schooled properly. We treat getting your license like getting a learners permit. It's
what gives you admission to the group. Once they're there, we do the teaching. We make
social events out of training and operating events. Hey we're all gonna make and test wire
antennas next Saturday down at the Metroparks. Lunch is provided. Come on down and
have some hamburgers and hot dogs with us, and we'll play radio for a few hours. So they
show up for lunch. And they have some fun and learn something at the same time. Next
thing you know, they're part of the group, and they start showing up for everything.
Before long they're studying to upgrade their license, because we've shown them, and let
them experience how much fun awaits if they do. And we teach them some more, and
more, in bite sized pieces if necessary, making it a fun event when we do it.

And you're right. It is just a hobby. Until, like the OP said, it isn't.

It's like when I give my introductory presentation to a new served agency, there will usually
be one "smart guy" in the audience who asks me, "how do you know this stuff will even work
when you need it?" (Usually with the smirk of a real wise guy)
I tell them that our radios are our toys, and the spectrum is our playground. (Because it is!)
We build repeaters out of old commercial gear because we can, and it's a lot of fun doing it.
Same with making antennas. We do it because we can, and it's a lot of fun.
We play radio on HF for the same reasons. (Short to medium range HF is extremely useful!)
Field Day is a blast! Loads of fun camping out and playing radio all night. (But it's practice, too.)
We use this stuff all the time because to us, it really IS all fun and games.
Until you (the served agency) call, that's when it gets serious.

It doesn't happen often, but it can, and does happen.  (Been there, done that. More than once.)
When it does, we have to be ready to respond, and respond in a proper manner. (That's what the training is for.)
Ham Radio Emcomm is simply combining the things we normally do for fun, with the training required
to work within a response system, for the benefit of others, when requested by a served agency.
And being ready to answer that call if, and when it comes.

If anybody tries to tell you different, don't believe them.

73 de N8AUC
Eric

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PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2017, 08:44:13 PM »

Eric, please read what you just posted and then read it again.  Tomorrow I'm going to go down every paragraph you wrote and read it and then read it again.  By then I hope to have made some sense of your post and can have some sort of response to it.  Please think before you speak Eric.     
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KC4ZGP
Member

Posts: 1637




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2017, 07:37:14 AM »

Amateur radio is always 'only a hobby', always 'just a hobby'.

Nothing more.

Quit thinking you're important.

Kraus

« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 07:39:30 AM by KC4ZGP » Logged
PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2017, 01:55:29 PM »

N8AUC

Not realistic?
You haven't been where I've been, done what I've done, or seen what I've seen.
You have no clue what's realistic and what isn't. You just think you do. And for now, that's OK.

I agree that we need sterner enforcement from the FCC. You're spot on with that comment.
And while we're at it, let's get the DOJ to stop being soft on the ones who are caught and
prosecuted. I am sick and tired of seeing convicted individuals get $20K fines reduced to
$300 because "the poor baby can't afford it". There needs to be some teeth behind that
enforcement as well.

More difficult tests? Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that. But given where we are at the
moment, if a newbie ends up getting involved with our ARES groups, they get elmered
and schooled properly. We treat getting your license like getting a learners permit. It's
what gives you admission to the group. Once they're there, we do the teaching. We make
social events out of training and operating events. Hey we're all gonna make and test wire
antennas next Saturday down at the Metroparks. Lunch is provided. Come on down and
have some hamburgers and hot dogs with us, and we'll play radio for a few hours. So they
show up for lunch. And they have some fun and learn something at the same time. Next
thing you know, they're part of the group, and they start showing up for everything.
Before long they're studying to upgrade their license, because we've shown them, and let
them experience how much fun awaits if they do. And we teach them some more, and
more, in bite sized pieces if necessary, making it a fun event when we do it.

And you're right. It is just a hobby. Until, like the OP said, it isn't.

It's like when I give my introductory presentation to a new served agency, there will usually
be one "smart guy" in the audience who asks me, "how do you know this stuff will even work
when you need it?" (Usually with the smirk of a real wise guy)
I tell them that our radios are our toys, and the spectrum is our playground. (Because it is!)
We build repeaters out of old commercial gear because we can, and it's a lot of fun doing it.
Same with making antennas. We do it because we can, and it's a lot of fun.
We play radio on HF for the same reasons. (Short to medium range HF is extremely useful!)
Field Day is a blast! Loads of fun camping out and playing radio all night. (But it's practice, too.)
We use this stuff all the time because to us, it really IS all fun and games.
Until you (the served agency) call, that's when it gets serious.

It doesn't happen often, but it can, and does happen.  (Been there, done that. More than once.)
When it does, we have to be ready to respond, and respond in a proper manner. (That's what the training is for.)
Ham Radio Emcomm is simply combining the things we normally do for fun, with the training required
to work within a response system, for the benefit of others, when requested by a served agency.
And being ready to answer that call if, and when it comes.

If anybody tries to tell you different, don't believe them.

73 de N8AUC
Eric


_____________

PLANKEYE

Eric you are right I haven't done what you have done ETC... what you said there.  Yep got that

I see we both agree on sterner FCC enforcement. 

We agree on stricter testing.  Now that is a big one.  In your paragraph above you speak like everyone that gets a license is like assigned a training officer like a rookie Cop.  I know it's just your group of folks in ARES I get it good for you guys.  But here is the thing that I think is very important.  Law enforcement, Military type folks don't get invited to a cook out to train or have the option to show up or not show up. 

It's a hobby until it's not, what exactly does that mean?  Is that like me studying surgery out of a book as a hobby and then I come across a patient on the street that needs surgery and I have to actually do it?  That would be the emergency part and why we both agree on stricter testing and sterner FCC enforcement.  Just to get your License, if you want to do emergency communications you need to pass more tests to become certified in ARES or whatever.  Not just show up for a cookout. 

I'm all for making the test extremely hard to get and keep for that matter.  Also I think it would be a great platform for people to enter into the emergency comm type stuff WITH TESTING. 

That was a big build up for a let down Eric, It's just a hobby my man CB radio with 1500 watts of power and nobody enforcing a single rule on the books.  It's a rednecks playground, if you don't believe me listen on the air.

Good stuff though Eric keep the good attitude and maybe you might look into Police Dispatcher type stuff part time.  I said that before those folks walk the walk and are held accountable.  Good luck my man!!   

   
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KC9PWT
Member

Posts: 86




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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 01:17:08 PM »

i feel the opposite, let folks in and let them try out what they like in radio, amateur is a big house not everyone is an emmcom guy, but the ones the want to learn should be given the opportunity to do so . Eric so would good to me , stricter testing just limits the number of guys that will try out for the team, stricter enforcement is a different matter.  when i was in my forties i was hunting the big horn mountains and the savannas of Africa, now i cant do that so i settle for a hobby that is less strenuous. age  does not mean you cant contribute .

getting guys out and have fun with the radios is a good thing. learning to work together is a good thing.  building a team is a good thing.  giving this joker that asked are you sure your equipment works an answer like well we test it every week, how often and when was the last time you personally tested yours?  seeing the look on his face priceless.

alex
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N8AUC
Member

Posts: 315




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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 04:01:42 PM »

Plankeye, you and I clearly don't hang out in the same places, or with the same people.

The point about the cook out was that in order to get people to embrace the training,
You have to make it fun, because for most people this is just a hobby.
Most people enjoy socializing and spending time with people who share a common interest.
A cook out is a great setting for doing that.
In the process of having fun, we develop skills and a camaraderie that builds trained, cohesive groups.

You keep complaining about the "rednecks" as you call them.
We'll keep having fun and  doing what you think is unrealistic.

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PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 04:20:18 PM »




I love cooking stuff and I like the fact it got people to come out to your cook out I love it!!  Keep that up!!!  You have to make it fun, because for most people this is just a hobby.  Have fun and good luck. 
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N8AUC
Member

Posts: 315




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 05:07:53 PM »

if you want to do emergency communications you need to pass more tests to become certified in ARES or whatever.

That's exactly right!
The ham license is just the starting point.

"Doing emergency communications" requires more than just a ham license.
The "more tests" is where the NIMS/ICS training comes in.

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PLANKEYE
Member

Posts: 212




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 05:30:40 PM »




I tried to tell you that but then you talk about these cook outs and got me into that.  Other people talk about getting rid of the test all together because of no enforcement from the FCC.  You flip flopped on me and now I'm not sure what to believe or think regarding radio anymore.  Talk more about your cook outs.   
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AC7CW
Member

Posts: 969




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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 07:07:40 PM »

I have said this before and I will say it again.  There is a need for trained hams for emcomm.  The trained part is the hard part.  At a major event you will find hams coming out of the woodwork.  However, when you try to recruit them before hand and ask them to join in a training event once a quarter or to come to a monthly meeting to offer their service and suggestions to the ARES group, very few show up.  Here in northeastern Illinois a big event occurs only every few years--not enough to keep up the interest of most hams unlike some other parts of the country.  An unknown and  questionable trained individual was acceptable in 1990 but not today.  
Art
This is exactly correct.

If you're not trained in, and familiar with NIMS/ICS you aren't going to be very useful, needed, or wanted.
If "joe ricky ham" off the street shows up with a belt full of HTs and none of the training, thinking he's
going to save the day, well he is going to be quite disappointed when he is sent home. No matter how
many orange vests he has, or how big a light bar he put on his vehicle. Truthfully, a light bar on a
personal vehicle is a usually (but not always) a good indicator of the much ridiculed "whacker". The
world changed after 9/11, and again after Katrina. Things are NOT like they used to be.

The people you're going to be working with live and breathe NIMS and ICS every day on the job.
If you haven't taken the training, you aren't going to know what the operational structure of the
response is, or how you are expected to fit in. And you aren't going to be able to work within the
system. Therefore you will be useless to the agencies we serve.

Truthfully, if everything works like it's supposed to, we aren't going to be called. And that's OK.
But when we are called, it's because we really are needed. It doesn't happen
often, but when it does, and it has, an organized response of trained individuals is what is needed.
That is where a good ARES unit comes into play. If your county EC is doing his job properly, he and
his staff of AECs are working to build (and maintain) a good working relationship with the agencies
they serve. Usually this will be the local county Office of Emergency Management (EMA). The ARES
leadership, under direction of local EMA officials, and your section level ARRL leadership will encourage
taking the necessary training. They will also facilitate drills and exercises to practice the response
expected by the served agencies, and the skills and capabilities the served agencies need. They should
also be conducting regular monthly meetings, each with training on a topic that is applicable to providing
emergency communications. If none of this is happening where you live, then either someone isn't
doing their job, or you do not have a properly functioning (or any) ARES unit in your county.

Art is 100% right. There IS a need for TRAINED hams for emcomm.

The required NIMS/ICS training is all online, and provided at no cost to the student. Yet some people
steadfastly refuse to spend (or make such elaborate excuses to avoid) a few hours to take the
necessary training. And the material really isn't that difficult. These are the same people who usually
can't be bothered to participate in the drills or exercises either. And they are also the ones who will
show up on websites and message boards as "internet experts" who loudly proclaim how "ham radio
emcomm" is a sad joke. And that simply is NOT the truth.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
(District EC in Ohio)

ARES, EC, AEC, NIMS/ICS? I used to read QST cover to cover when I was a kid... except for when I encountered a lot of acronyms. I swear, that put me off of emergency comms way back then and I'm still off it...
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
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