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Author Topic: Are we really serious about Emergency COMMS  (Read 3844 times)
WB2KSP
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Posts: 625




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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 07:04:24 AM »


The point I am trying to make is that perhaps we are making this too complex. If we as hams only focused on CC&R's and left the HOA's out of the discussion for the moment, perhaps we could get something through. As of now, all HOA that I know of are covered by restrictive CC&R's. If that was out of the equation then we'd be in a position to negotiate. Just a single line stating that the placement of Amateur radio antennas can not be decided under a CC&R.

KSP is correct. Everyone criticizes the HOA as the culprit, when they are only the vehicle to enforce the CC&R's, and manage the appearance of the common areas. CC&R's are originally put in place by the landowner/developer, and even in the absence of an HOA, any neighbor governed by the same CC&R's can sue you for a violation...and they will win.


As I've said elsewhere the HOA is only acting as the police officer, enforcing the law not creating it.  If, after this law, as it relates to ham radio is overturned, all HOA's in a community still prevent hams from installing antennas, then we can go after the HOA's for collusion. We aren't there yet.
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KN6SD
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Posts: 151




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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 07:05:56 AM »

I have posted links to HOA regulations that have attempted to regulate transmitter ownership in their community.  Unfortunately, there are some that feel they can override Federal jurisdiction.

Which is on of the reasons I suggested that the Feds overturn any reference to amateur radio in CC&R's. By disallowing outside antennas the local communities have found a loophole which overrides the federal government jurisdiction over the RF spectrum which is firmly under the control of the FCC. If the CC&R exclusion were in place it would put another bow in our quiver when it comes to buying a house with a  HOA. It all comes down to negotiation at that point. Not many communities will willingly turn away someone willing to hand over $500,000 cash.Somehow I think that might be a motivating factor when negotiating with these communities. Right now we are seen as a pariah and that is a disgrace in my opinion.

Hi KSP,

Does the language in my proposed Act look familiar? It was taken from the 2015 version of ARPA, I expanded it a little  Cool


The point I am trying to make is that perhaps we are making this too complex. If we as hams only focused on CC&R's and left the HOA's out of the discussion for the moment, perhaps we could get something through. As of now, all HOA that I know of are covered by restrictive CC&R's. If that was out of the equation then we'd be in a position to negotiate. Just a single line stating that the placement of Amateur radio antennas can not be decided under a CC&R.

KSP,

CC&R's is where the rubber hits the road.. Here's what I understand the problem is: CAI doesn't want a pre-emption of the CC&R's, no pre-emption then the HOA's must enforce the CC&R's... And we're back to square one :^(

Russ
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 625




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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 07:58:21 AM »

I have posted links to HOA regulations that have attempted to regulate transmitter ownership in their community.  Unfortunately, there are some that feel they can override Federal jurisdiction.

Which is on of the reasons I suggested that the Feds overturn any reference to amateur radio in CC&R's. By disallowing outside antennas the local communities have found a loophole which overrides the federal government jurisdiction over the RF spectrum which is firmly under the control of the FCC. If the CC&R exclusion were in place it would put another bow in our quiver when it comes to buying a house with a  HOA. It all comes down to negotiation at that point. Not many communities will willingly turn away someone willing to hand over $500,000 cash.Somehow I think that might be a motivating factor when negotiating with these communities. Right now we are seen as a pariah and that is a disgrace in my opinion.

Hi KSP,

Does the language in my proposed Act look familiar? It was taken from the 2015 version of ARPA, I expanded it a little  Cool


The point I am trying to make is that perhaps we are making this too complex. If we as hams only focused on CC&R's and left the HOA's out of the discussion for the moment, perhaps we could get something through. As of now, all HOA that I know of are covered by restrictive CC&R's. If that was out of the equation then we'd be in a position to negotiate. Just a single line stating that the placement of Amateur radio antennas can not be decided under a CC&R.

KSP,

CC&R's is where the rubber hits the road.. Here's what I understand the problem is: CAI doesn't want a pre-emption of the CC&R's, no pre-emption then the HOA's must enforce the CC&R's... And we're back to square one :^(

Russ
One of the arguments made by those in congress is that they don't want to get involved with private agreements. Well, the CC&R is not a private agreement written by HOA's. It's a legal real estate document which HOA's and builders make use of, that would be enforced by government.  HOA's can charge a crime has been committed but they have no legal right to enforce these laws. To repeat, in the case of current CC&R's, these HOA's are using the government to penalize those who would dare not abide by this real estate law. It's a fine point. The HOA's make use of this public law, so why can't we as citizens of this country ask our government to disallow the inclusion of ham antennas on private property. If it weren't for public pressure many of these same associations would still exclude blacks and Jews from home ownership in their neighborhoods. By excluding ham radio antennas and radio equipment from CC&R's the federal government would establish their jurisdiction over the use of radio equipment which without proper antennas become unusable.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:00:33 AM by WB2KSP » Logged
N9AOP
Member

Posts: 641




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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 09:32:40 AM »

Cities like HOA's.  I asked my councilman (we have a city mgr. form of govt.) why the city favors HOA's for new developments.  He said that that setup saves the city money in that the residents of the HOA have to pay for the upkeep of their retention pond, streets and sidewalks and not the rest of the citizens.  The city also does not have to worry about mowing unkempt lawns and billing the owners nor garbage or beaters littering up the property.  That problem rests with the HOA and they are prompt in correcting any problems.  At least folks living there don't have the heartburn that I have.  I have to decide what type of fence to put up and what color to paint it.  I have to decide when to cut the grass--is it at 3/4in or 1 1/2in?  Do I put the car in the garage after 10PM or not.   In a HOA they decide all that stuff for you.
Art
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 625




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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 09:40:04 AM »

Cities like HOA's.  I asked my councilman (we have a city mgr. form of govt.) why the city favors HOA's for new developments.  He said that that setup saves the city money in that the residents of the HOA have to pay for the upkeep of their retention pond, streets and sidewalks and not the rest of the citizens.  The city also does not have to worry about mowing unkempt lawns and billing the owners nor garbage or beaters littering up the property.  That problem rests with the HOA and they are prompt in correcting any problems.  At least folks living there don't have the heartburn that I have.  I have to decide what type of fence to put up and what color to paint it.  I have to decide when to cut the grass--is it at 3/4in or 1 1/2in?  Do I put the car in the garage after 10PM or not.   In a HOA they decide all that stuff for you.
Art
[/quote

So do cults
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KF7CG
Member

Posts: 1192




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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2017, 10:50:41 AM »

One thing forgotten in this is that the CC&Rs do not have to specifically mention outside antennas to ban them; that can be left to the architectural committee. All that is needed is a covenant stating the all permanent on non-essential temporary structures, a very loosely defined term, attached to the dwelling or placed on the property must be approved in advance by the architectural committee.

With is type of restriction, the HOA bylaws can ban most anything, kiddy tents, utility sheds, bird baths you name it. Very simple empowering covenants for the HOA stating that the appearance of all units in the development must meet the criteria set forth in the HOA Bylaws, give an HOA board almost unlimited power even to specifying the brand, model, color of mailboxes.

KF7CG
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W0DLM
Member

Posts: 155




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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 10:56:11 AM »

In the Sacramento area the were homes built in the late 70's / early 80's that have CC&R's that say, "No Radio Transmitters of any type are permitted".
Okay. I will give you the fact that some associations still have rules like this on their books. But NONE OF THEM enforce these rules. They can't. If they try, and the homeowner fights it, the association loses EVERY SINGLE TIME.

These rules are no more enforceable than the rules that some communities used to have that said you couldn't sell your home to a "colored" person.
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 625




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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 01:53:54 PM »

One thing forgotten in this is that the CC&Rs do not have to specifically mention outside antennas to ban them; that can be left to the architectural committee. All that is needed is a covenant stating the all permanent on non-essential temporary structures, a very loosely defined term, attached to the dwelling or placed on the property must be approved in advance by the architectural committee.

With is type of restriction, the HOA bylaws can ban most anything, kiddy tents, utility sheds, bird baths you name it. Very simple empowering covenants for the HOA stating that the appearance of all units in the development must meet the criteria set forth in the HOA Bylaws, give an HOA board almost unlimited power even to specifying the brand, model, color of mailboxes.

KF7CG



However, if the CC&R rule was to be done away with it would give the HOA one less bullet and give hams options.As I mentioned elsewhere, if you are in a town with a number of HOA communities and 3 of them say no antenna, perhaps number 4 will say yes (That's what real estate agents are for)and considering the ups and downs of our economy not many of these small neighborhoods will be willing to turn away 5, 600,000 or more dollars. It will give us options we presently do not have.
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KF7CG
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Posts: 1192




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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 10:42:54 AM »

Remember, HOAs get no money from the sale of properties in the HOA community. The developer/builder gets money, the realtor gets money not the HOA all they get is another dues paying member whom they might consider not worth the trouble. All that HOA boards have at stake is their egos and their feeling of empowerment. Except for the new professional HOA management boards and a few HOAs that have paid staff, the only benefit to the HOA board is the satisfaction of the need for power and ego stroking.

KF7CG
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WB2KSP
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Posts: 625




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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2017, 01:32:43 PM »

Remember, HOAs get no money from the sale of properties in the HOA community. The developer/builder gets money, the realtor gets money not the HOA all they get is another dues paying member whom they might consider not worth the trouble. All that HOA boards have at stake is their egos and their feeling of empowerment. Except for the new professional HOA management boards and a few HOAs that have paid staff, the only benefit to the HOA board is the satisfaction of the need for power and ego stroking.

KF7CG

And homes which don't remain vacant. If you are purchasing a newly built home you are dealing with the builder, not the HOA, so, I stand by my statement.
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K7JQ
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Posts: 947




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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2017, 04:19:21 PM »

Except for the new professional HOA management boards and a few HOAs that have paid staff, the only benefit to the HOA board is the satisfaction of the need for power and ego stroking.

KF7CG

I can't agree with that. If you're a normal family that takes pride in the appearance of your property, you'll generally (maybe with few exceptions) have no problems with any HOA. HOA disputes  with residents are mostly due to deficiencies in aesthetics...weeds and unkempt  landscaping, peeling and faded paint, junker cars and grease stains in the driveway, etc. "Power and ego stroking" tactics are way in the minority.
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WB2KSP
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Posts: 625




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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 10:08:24 AM »

 The rights of the minority are usually respected in any modern democracy.

"In every genuine democracy today, majority rule is both endorsed and limited by the supreme law of the constitution, which protects the rights of individuals. Tyranny by minority over the majority is barred, but so is tyranny of the majority against minorities."

What covenants do is take away those rights. HOA's only enforce the covenants. I don't want t live in a wold where individuality doesn't exist. In my non HOA neighborhood, we have an assortment of home styles, yet all houses are well maintained. No one paints stripes on their homes, People keep their grass cut and take care of the landscaping. (Most people have a landscaping service in my neighborhood). No one tells me that I can't pursue my legal hobby because they don't like the way my antennas look on my home.

HOA's tout their "club house", great (who needs a club house when one has a house with a back yard? They've turned owing a home into living in a apartment. It's also partly communal living, where if the HOA wants to access owners a charge to take care of someone else's roof (in the case of attached homes) they can.   Having lived a non HOA life my entire existence, it appalls me that i should have to pay for the upkeep of others property. The argument being that when I need something done on my property the HOA take care of it. Thhis is nonsense. I purchased a home, I didn't join a commune. If new homes are all going to be built using the boiler plate covenants
(and the vast majority are) perhaps the FCC should stop issuing amateur radio licenses. The government could save dollars by doing so. After all, if thing keep going as they are, no one will be able to make use of a ham license from their home.  I know of some HOA's in Florida which tell the community (consisting of private homes)  you can not have a dog. What's becoming of our country?
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K7JQ
Member

Posts: 947




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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 04:14:06 PM »

The rights of the minority are usually respected in any modern democracy.

"In every genuine democracy today, majority rule is both endorsed and limited by the supreme law of the constitution, which protects the rights of individuals. Tyranny by minority over the majority is barred, but so is tyranny of the majority against minorities."

What covenants do is take away those rights. HOA's only enforce the covenants. I don't want t live in a wold where individuality doesn't exist. In my non HOA neighborhood, we have an assortment of home styles, yet all houses are well maintained. No one paints stripes on their homes, People keep their grass cut and take care of the landscaping. (Most people have a landscaping service in my neighborhood). No one tells me that I can't pursue my legal hobby because they don't like the way my antennas look on my home.

HOA's tout their "club house", great (who needs a club house when one has a house with a back yard? They've turned owing a home into living in a apartment. It's also partly communal living, where if the HOA wants to access owners a charge to take care of someone else's roof (in the case of attached homes) they can.   Having lived a non HOA life my entire existence, it appalls me that i should have to pay for the upkeep of others property. The argument being that when I need something done on my property the HOA take care of it. Thhis is nonsense. I purchased a home, I didn't join a commune. If new homes are all going to be built using the boiler plate covenants
(and the vast majority are) perhaps the FCC should stop issuing amateur radio licenses. The government could save dollars by doing so. After all, if thing keep going as they are, no one will be able to make use of a ham license from their home.  I know of some HOA's in Florida which tell the community (consisting of private homes)  you can not have a dog. What's becoming of our country?

Dave,

Everyone has an opinion that has to be respected, and, obviously, an HOA community is not for you. I'm certainly not implying that every non-HOA neighborhood is a pigsty, however they have the ability to become one. I've seen first-hand some non-HOA communities that start out new with caring residents, then with a change of occupants over the years turning some homes into rentals and non-caring residents...voila, pigsties. Your house and landscaping are well-kept, your neighbor's isn't, and there's not a darn thing you can do about it. From your description, it seems you live in an upper- middle class neighborhood (most people have a landscaping service), and that's great. Others are not so lucky, and have to put up with their neighbor's insufficiencies.

HOA communities also have an assortment of home styles...not all are cookie-cutters. I, and my neighbors, are individuals...we are not a cult. Single-home HOA's (in Arizona anyway) don't take care of your property's landscaping, but make sure the common areas...streets, sidewalks, greenbelts, parks, playgrounds, recreation areas, etc...are well-maintained. And does your back-yard have a fitness center, clubhouse for neighbors to get together, spa, pool (well, maybe), tennis and basketball courts? Believe it or not, some people would like these amenities, and are willing to pay for it with HOA dues. Not everyone feels that HOA's take away their "rights". And "TYRANNY"? That's a pretty strong word...makes me laugh based on my experience. No dogs allowed in a single-home community? I'm not a pet person, but I will admit that's ridiculous. You said "some HOA's" don't allow dogs...then buy a home in one of the "others" that do allow dogs, probably in the great majority.

Please understand, the one CC&R I don't like is antenna restrictions. I support an ARPA bill (not this latest one). But I'm an amateur radio operator, my neighbors aren't. The other CC&R's don't really bother me or my neighbors. I like and enjoy my house, my neighbors, and my neighborhood...no "tyranny" here. Until an ARPA bill is passed, I'll continue to operate with compromised stealth antennas...so far, so good. To me, ham radio is a hobby, not my life's blood. Everyone has their priorities, and I understand that with some, ham radio is #1. Their search for the ideal residence is tougher.

I know you've been looking for another (newer, modern) home in retirement, possibly in a warmer weather area than New York. Honestly, Dave, if antennas were allowed in all new-built, modern HOA communities, would you still be totally adverse to the "tyrannical" HOA/CC&R experience? If so, then you're true to your convictions, and I respect that. My opinion is that the majority of blanket HOA haters in these ham radio forums are so because of antenna restrictions. Actually, if there were no antenna restrictions, this forum topic wouldn't even exist.  Grin

73, Bob K7JQ   
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 625




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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 05:05:46 PM »

The rights of the minority are usually respected in any modern democracy.

"In every genuine democracy today, majority rule is both endorsed and limited by the supreme law of the constitution, which protects the rights of individuals. Tyranny by minority over the majority is barred, but so is tyranny of the majority against minorities."

What covenants do is take away those rights. HOA's only enforce the covenants. I don't want t live in a wold where individuality doesn't exist. In my non HOA neighborhood, we have an assortment of home styles, yet all houses are well maintained. No one paints stripes on their homes, People keep their grass cut and take care of the landscaping. (Most people have a landscaping service in my neighborhood). No one tells me that I can't pursue my legal hobby because they don't like the way my antennas look on my home.

HOA's tout their "club house", great (who needs a club house when one has a house with a back yard? They've turned owing a home into living in a apartment. It's also partly communal living, where if the HOA wants to access owners a charge to take care of someone else's roof (in the case of attached homes) they can.   Having lived a non HOA life my entire existence, it appalls me that i should have to pay for the upkeep of others property. The argument being that when I need something done on my property the HOA take care of it. Thhis is nonsense. I purchased a home, I didn't join a commune. If new homes are all going to be built using the boiler plate covenants
(and the vast majority are) perhaps the FCC should stop issuing amateur radio licenses. The government could save dollars by doing so. After all, if thing keep going as they are, no one will be able to make use of a ham license from their home.  I know of some HOA's in Florida which tell the community (consisting of private homes)  you can not have a dog. What's becoming of our country?

Dave,

Everyone has an opinion that has to be respected, and, obviously, an HOA community is not for you. I'm certainly not implying that every non-HOA neighborhood is a pigsty, however they have the ability to become one. I've seen first-hand some non-HOA communities that start out new with caring residents, then with a change of occupants over the years turning some homes into rentals and non-caring residents...voila, pigsties. Your house and landscaping are well-kept, your neighbor's isn't, and there's not a darn thing you can do about it. From your description, it seems you live in an upper- middle class neighborhood (most people have a landscaping service), and that's great. Others are not so lucky, and have to put up with their neighbor's insufficiencies.

HOA communities also have an assortment of home styles...not all are cookie-cutters. I, and my neighbors, are individuals...we are not a cult. Single-home HOA's (in Arizona anyway) don't take care of your property's landscaping, but make sure the common areas...streets, sidewalks, greenbelts, parks, playgrounds, recreation areas, etc...are well-maintained. And does your back-yard have a fitness center, clubhouse for neighbors to get together, spa, pool (well, maybe), tennis and basketball courts? Believe it or not, some people would like these amenities, and are willing to pay for it with HOA dues. Not everyone feels that HOA's take away their "rights". And "TYRANNY"? That's a pretty strong word...makes me laugh based on my experience. No dogs allowed in a single-home community? I'm not a pet person, but I will admit that's ridiculous. You said "some HOA's" don't allow dogs...then buy a home in one of the "others" that do allow dogs, probably in the great majority.

Please understand, the one CC&R I don't like is antenna restrictions. I support an ARPA bill (not this latest one). But I'm an amateur radio operator, my neighbors aren't. The other CC&R's don't really bother me or my neighbors. I like and enjoy my house, my neighbors, and my neighborhood...no "tyranny" here. Until an ARPA bill is passed, I'll continue to operate with compromised stealth antennas...so far, so good. To me, ham radio is a hobby, not my life's blood. Everyone has their priorities, and I understand that with some, ham radio is #1. Their search for the ideal residence is tougher.

I know you've been looking for another (newer, modern) home in retirement, possibly in a warmer weather area than New York. Honestly, Dave, if antennas were allowed in all new-built, modern HOA communities, would you still be totally adverse to the "tyrannical" HOA/CC&R experience? If so, then you're true to your convictions, and I respect that. My opinion is that the majority of blanket HOA haters in these ham radio forums are so because of antenna restrictions. Actually, if there were no antenna restrictions, this forum topic wouldn't even exist.  Grin

73, Bob K7JQ   


Bob, If you do a google earth search on my QTH I think you will see that everyone in my neighborhood takes care of their property. It may be economics, I can't say. I will state for a fact that my prior home was in an older neighborhood where we each took care of our property and no one told me that I couldn't fill in my pool so that I could mount an 80/40 vertical. As I and others have stated over and over, if we had viable alternatives, this forum and our complaints would not exist. I have no plans to retire to Florida. I Love the NYC metro area. However, even in central Jersey were we are looking every new neighborhood is HOA controlled. Give us viable options and I (& I suppose others) will go away happily.  I see ham radio as a hobby which effects no one negatively. The issue is that I want to put up a antenna on property that I own and maintain and pay taxes for, yet there are some who believe that even though I supposedly own my land that I shouldn't be able to enjoy my legally licensed hobby from the comfort of my home. I'm not talking towers, which if they fell could damage a neighbors property. I'm talking perfectly acceptable antennas located and maintained on my own property. That is what I take offense of. Next they will tell us that we all must drive Fords which are no older than 5 years old and painted white. Sound ridiculous? So does a group of strangers telling me what I can and can't do on property which I supposedly own, even though it is a perfectly legal and licensed hobby. These same strangers tell me that I must subsidize clubhouses, swimming pools and golf courses even though none of these hold any interest to me.
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K7JQ
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Posts: 947




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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 05:53:52 AM »


Bob, If you do a google earth search on my QTH I think you will see that everyone in my neighborhood takes care of their property. It may be economics, I can't say. I will state for a fact that my prior home was in an older neighborhood where we each took care of our property and no one told me that I couldn't fill in my pool so that I could mount an 80/40 vertical. As I and others have stated over and over, if we had viable alternatives, this forum and our complaints would not exist. I have no plans to retire to Florida. I Love the NYC metro area. However, even in central Jersey were we are looking every new neighborhood is HOA controlled. Give us viable options and I (& I suppose others) will go away happily.  I see ham radio as a hobby which effects no one negatively. The issue is that I want to put up a antenna on property that I own and maintain and pay taxes for, yet there are some who believe that even though I supposedly own my land that I shouldn't be able to enjoy my legally licensed hobby from the comfort of my home. I'm not talking towers, which if they fell could damage a neighbors property. I'm talking perfectly acceptable antennas located and maintained on my own property. That is what I take offense of. Next they will tell us that we all must drive Fords which are no older than 5 years old and painted white. Sound ridiculous? So does a group of strangers telling me what I can and can't do on property which I supposedly own, even though it is a perfectly legal and licensed hobby. These same strangers tell me that I must subsidize clubhouses, swimming pools and golf courses even though none of these hold any interest to me.

OK, Dave...fair 'nuff. But do I perceive a crack in your CC&R/HOA objections with "viable alternatives" and "give us viable options and I (& I suppose others) will go away"? Can I assume that if there were no antenna restrictions, you might let the other CC&R regulations slide (even driving newer white Fords Cheesy), and purchase a home in one of those communities? With the exception of the absolute "rights advocates" (I can do whatever I want on property I own), I suspect most hams would think that way. So maybe it's not all "I hate HOA's", but it's all about the antenna restrictions.

CC&R/HOA enforced communities are here to stay. If an effective ARPA bill were to be passed, would this "Antenna Restrictions" forum topic cease to exist? I think not. There will always be those that will push the envelope, and want to erect a 50-foot tower with tribander on a postage stamp-sized lot, instead of being satisfied with a "perfectly acceptable" multi-band vertical or dipole. And the beat goes on.... Roll Eyes

73,  Bob K7JQ
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