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Author Topic: Finding the DX TX freq on FT8  (Read 4356 times)
VA3VF
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Posts: 806




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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 07:50:35 PM »


That reinforces my view that you are better off to call on the CQer's Tx frequency unless you have a specific reason to suspect that there may be many stations calling him on that same frequency. It's really no different than the decision to work split on SSB.


Calling on the CQers Tx frequency will not enhance you reception, all you need to do is to place the receive bracket there for any additional decoding benefit. For your Tx, it may be more beneficial to to you to transmit as close as possible to 1600 Hz.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 07:55:57 PM by VA3VF » Logged
VA3VF
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Posts: 806




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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 07:54:03 PM »

So much for workin "split" as the end all for working DX. Sometimes it better, sometimes it's not.

Split was never 'sold' as an end all for working DX, but a way to 'beat' the masses calling on the DX frequency. If you know you are the only one calling the DX, operate simplex.
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ND6M
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Posts: 553




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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 06:13:31 AM »

... edit...
Calling on the CQers Tx frequency will not enhance you reception, ... it may be more beneficial to to you to transmit as close as possible to 1600 Hz.

 it will not enhance YOUR reception, but,... it will add 4 dB (+/-) on the other end.
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VA3VF
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 06:17:47 AM »

... edit...
Calling on the CQers Tx frequency will not enhance you reception, ... it may be more beneficial to to you to transmit as close as possible to 1600 Hz.

 it will not enhance YOUR reception, but,... it will add 4 dB (+/-) on the other end.

The benefits of that in a pile-up is debatable. Is your 4dB bigger than my 4dB?   Grin

4dB less on a clear frequency may still be a lot more efficient.
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ND6M
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Posts: 553




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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 06:26:41 AM »

... edit...
Calling on the CQers Tx frequency will not enhance you reception, ... it may be more beneficial to to you to transmit as close as possible to 1600 Hz.

 it will not enhance YOUR reception, but,... it will add 4 dB (+/-) on the other end. 

cut and paste from the wsjt user group:
FT8 does deeper decoding close to the Rx frequency offset. The AP decoding, when enabled, does more advanced decoding at the QSO frequency once you're in a QSO. In both cases the limited frequency range allows focused use of CPU resources. In the case of AP decoding, decoding at the QSO frequency is all that is necessary for AP masks that include both callsigns.

JT65, JT9 and FT8, in multi-signal decoding mode, all decode close to the Rx frequency offset first to ensure that QSO parter decodes are delivered as promptly as possible.

73
Bill

Bottom line: if both stations are at the same freq, then about 4 dB is added to reception on both ends.

if "call 1st" is used, then PRIORITY is given to the station on the same Rx freq.
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ND6M
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 06:30:05 AM »

...
4dB less on a clear frequency may still be a lot more efficient.

... and 4 dB more on a busy freq may be more efficient too Grin

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VA3VF
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Posts: 806




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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2017, 06:34:55 AM »

...
4dB less on a clear frequency may still be a lot more efficient.

... and 4 dB more on a busy freq may be more efficient too Grin



Again, only if your 4 dB is bigger than my 4 dB. It's only half a joke. An additional 4 dB on my 20W signal is not the same as an additional 4 dB on a 200W signal.
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AA2UK
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Posts: 309




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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 08:34:07 AM »

I standby my original statement using Deep decode and Enable AP is where the real performance comes from. I guess if you have a turd for a computer then getting close to the freq has advantages. All that's happening by getting close to the frequency is your computer decodes that signal as a priority b4 it scans and re-scans the entire freq block.
73, Bill AA2UK
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KD7HNN
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Posts: 60




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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 09:33:25 AM »

The other day I saw guys working C93PA. I never saw him on the left screen, so I frantically tuned the segment looking at every weak trace I could see. I finally found him. He was -21 so I found a clear tx freq and worked him.

Of all the informative comments in this thread, this one really stood out. This guys is actually applying some DXing skill rather than just face rolling contacts from the decoded calls in his receive window. Nicely done  Shocked
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VA3VF
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 09:36:34 AM »

The other day I saw guys working C93PA. I never saw him on the left screen, so I frantically tuned the segment looking at every weak trace I could see. I finally found him. He was -21 so I found a clear tx freq and worked him.

Of all the informative comments in this thread, this one really stood out. This guys is actually applying some DXing skill rather than just face rolling contacts from the decoded calls in his receive window. Nicely done  Shocked

Agreed!!!

And some still say it's automated, no challenge, no skills, QSO machine.....Please!
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K0UA
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 09:43:01 AM »

The other day I saw guys working C93PA. I never saw him on the left screen, so I frantically tuned the segment looking at every weak trace I could see. I finally found him. He was -21 so I found a clear tx freq and worked him.

Of all the informative comments in this thread, this one really stood out. This guys is actually applying some DXing skill rather than just face rolling contacts from the decoded calls in his receive window. Nicely done  Shocked

Agreed!!!

And some still say it's automated, no challenge, no skills, QSO machine.....Please!

I have notice those that are complaining the loudest about the WSJT modes have never operated the WSJT modes, and have no idea of the amount of work required to be successful.  Try working for your 5 band WAS, now tell me you don't have to proactively search, hunt, make schedules, constantly check PSK reporter for popups, constantly check LOTW status etc.  As well as operating techniques that require skill, knowledge of propagation, and not to mention hours in the chair looking for contacts.

Some actually think and keep spreading the BS, that we all just go watch TV and come back and see what our computers have worked.  They actually say and believe this.
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KD7HNN
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 11:26:38 AM »

The other day I saw guys working C93PA. I never saw him on the left screen, so I frantically tuned the segment looking at every weak trace I could see. I finally found him. He was -21 so I found a clear tx freq and worked him.

Of all the informative comments in this thread, this one really stood out. This guys is actually applying some DXing skill rather than just face rolling contacts from the decoded calls in his receive window. Nicely done  Shocked

Agreed!!!

And some still say it's automated, no challenge, no skills, QSO machine.....Please!

I have notice those that are complaining the loudest about the WSJT modes have never operated the WSJT modes, and have no idea of the amount of work required to be successful.  Try working for your 5 band WAS, now tell me you don't have to proactively search, hunt, make schedules, constantly check PSK reporter for popups, constantly check LOTW status etc.  As well as operating techniques that require skill, knowledge of propagation, and not to mention hours in the chair looking for contacts.

Some actually think and keep spreading the BS, that we all just go watch TV and come back and see what our computers have worked.  They actually say and believe this.


 Huh Wait! you really do all that trying for 5BWAS? Why??  It's not necessary. Given the limitations of your station, all you have to do is call CQ and work guys, your software will tell you if a new state is on the band for you to chase. Look at PSK reporter every once in awhile to see where your signal is heard and just mash the CQ button. I watched the entire World Series game last night while calling CQ. The only time I really payed attention was to start a new CQ sequence, confirm I didn't need a repeat, or to watch my ALC. 68 qso's  19 states  4 countries, ezpz

FT8 IS an automated QSO machine with very little skill required to make qso's. The only real skill involved is grinding out those weak signal traces using every bit of your stations ability to get a decode, and making sure you tx is clear, especially when the band is jumping and you have to navigate the noobies and op's with poor operating practice. No pile-up skill required since your timing is already set. Having a clean signal is also high on the list, but not considered a skill since we as hams should already be doing this (although it might be a skill to the above mentioned noobies and op's with poor operating practices who don't ever seem to figure this out)

Personally I love FT8. Quick signal report and move on. I'm not a rag chewer so PSK31 was wearin' me out with the macros.

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KM4OBL
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Posts: 64




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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 11:48:37 AM »

The other day I saw guys working C93PA. I never saw him on the left screen, so I frantically tuned the segment looking at every weak trace I could see. I finally found him. He was -21 so I found a clear tx freq and worked him.

Of all the informative comments in this thread, this one really stood out. This guys is actually applying some DXing skill rather than just face rolling contacts from the decoded calls in his receive window. Nicely done  Shocked

Agreed!!!

And some still say it's automated, no challenge, no skills, QSO machine.....Please!

I have notice those that are complaining the loudest about the WSJT modes have never operated the WSJT modes, and have no idea of the amount of work required to be successful.  Try working for your 5 band WAS, now tell me you don't have to proactively search, hunt, make schedules, constantly check PSK reporter for popups, constantly check LOTW status etc.  As well as operating techniques that require skill, knowledge of propagation, and not to mention hours in the chair looking for contacts.

Some actually think and keep spreading the BS, that we all just go watch TV and come back and see what our computers have worked.  They actually say and believe this.

I have to second this comment - especially for those of us with severely compromised antennas in urban areas who must also limit our power output, it isn't easy to make dx contacts in FT8.  I am just getting started in this mode, as K0UA knows, and I have already found that: 1) after I choose a "quiet" frequency on the waterfall on which to transmit, it doesn't take long for others to transmit on top of me; and 2) there seem to be much greater increases and decreases in decodable signal strength (mine and others') in a short period of time, compared with psk31, making many contacts difficult.  

The number of people on the band with better antennas and more power make it difficult for operators like me - but in the long run I am hoping the limitations of my situation will make me a better operator than I would be if it were easier for me.  And I will very much appreciate each and every contact I am able to make.  
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AA2UK
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Posts: 309




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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 12:20:48 PM »

Most modern logging programs will tell you who you need for awards.
Simply using FT8 does not insure that will you be able to complete a QSO. 
Having and building a good station will help you complete more digital QSO's.
The only thing Auto and it can be disabled is the Auto sequencing of the messages to complete a QSO once it's initiated.
The mode does help stations put a real number on their TX and RX in db.
Propagation still plays a major role in any pair of stations trying to complete a QSO.
It's also opening new horizons on the VHF and above world.
Chances are like any mode if you have a basic station and try working a weak DX station thru a pileup your odds are similar to trying to get their attntion as if both stations were using CW or SSB.
The beauty of FT8 and other digital modes is it has reinvigorated large numbers of hams old & new to get on the bands and give it a go. If digital modes aren't your thing no problem there's plenty of white noise to listen to.......
73, Bill
AA2UK
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K0UA
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Posts: 1371




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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 12:29:03 PM »

Yes you have already discovered that sometimes the band is not stable for for long.  Sometimes you have a popup station you need, and if you don't get him in a minute or two, he is gone for good.  I see this quite a bit on both the upper bands like 15 and 10 and also on 160 sometimes when europeans come in for a few minutes and then they are gone.

And yes of course it always helps to build the best station you can build. The biggest and best antennas you can afford or are able to put up will go a long way toward success as well as honing your operating skills to ferret out contacts that you want and need.
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