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Author Topic: Procedure help needed  (Read 1793 times)
VK5EEE
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Posts: 1035




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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2017, 08:37:59 AM »

And what do you say to them K8PRG?

W1LID DE K8PRG KN

then give them the first over?

Or do you send your entire first over, at risk of nothing?

Or do you send W1LID DE K8PRG ARE YOU CALLING ME OM?

And if the signal is weak?

No, it is bloody rude, and stupid. You just continue calling CQ, and they just have to learn. I'm ALL for helping beginners, but this is the one thing I don't know how to fix, along with 5NN TU -- response: REAL RST?

Beginners can read a little about procedure, there is plenty information about if you search. I don't think these are beginners at all: they usually send their callsign at 30WPM or so, they are just used to "5NN TU" and it will end up being an unsatisfactory QSO.

Worry less... I have tried it too many times, to know it is a waste of time. Likewise I won't respond to a CQ that just ends with their callsign and no invitation to transmit. Because that too is RUDE. YOU are the one who has to wait, hear a longer silence, and assume that they have stopped calling CQ.

I'm old school. CW has always, along with politeness, been done a certain way. These days, people address each other with "Hey!" and police men a third of your age call you by your first name, with no respect. Kids tell their teachers what they can teach and how.

For those who are prepared to have a confusing attempt at a QSO by turning the usual method on its head, good on you, go right ahead. For the rest of us, we'll not respond to rudeness and flagrant abuse of basic radio procedure. Let alone the Radio Regulations.

We have the likes of ON4UN to thank for the decline in ethics, thanks to the IARU "Ethics" booklet, full of errors regarding basic CW procedure of over a century now turned on its head.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 08:40:14 AM by VK5EEE » Logged

Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
K8PRG
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2017, 09:10:12 AM »

And what do you say to them K8PRG?

Their call de K8PRG KN......if they answer, we have the beginning of a QSO...great.
If they don't answer after a few seconds, fine, I continue to CQ.

No harm, no foul.
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K8AC
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Posts: 1763




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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2017, 11:07:54 AM »

Quote
VK5EEE said: We have the likes of ON4UN to thank for the decline in ethics, thanks to the IARU "Ethics" booklet, full of errors regarding basic CW procedure of over a century now turned on its head.

Interesting comment, and since I'd never even heard of John's Ethics booklet, I went looking for it with Google.  For those who haven't seen it, it's 68 page booklet that spells out what John sees as the ethics and procedures we should use in amateur radio communications.  While I didn't read it in the detail that VK5EEE did (just what are those errors?), I saw enough to recommend the booklet to any newcomers to the hobby as a way of introducing them to operating procedures for many of the commonly used modes, as well as things they should be thinking about or doing so as not to offend other operators.

As with any such document, you have to use common sense in applying what you've read.  For example, I really have to wonder what was going through John's head when he wrote the list of things you absolutely should NEVER talk about on the amateur bands.  His last item was: "any subject that has no relation whatsoever with the ham radio hobby. "  If you happen to agree with that, please never answer one of my CQs - I really don't like talking with brain-dead people. 

At any rate, search for "IARU ethics booklet" and that will reveal the document to you.  My quick scan tells me that the document probably contains fewer errors than you'll hear on the CW and SSB bands everyday.  I believe that Kenneth's original question is covered.
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K8PRG
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2017, 12:42:31 PM »

  I believe that Kenneth's original question is covered.

Yeah, and then some....as in how does "ethics" come into play here? Ethics is about morals...correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, so you're not following proper procedures...as in cutting corners.....is that moraly wrong?
That's a rhetorical question since I won't be around for the answer......moving on here.
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AE5GT
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »

If i hear a single call and i successfully copy it.   I would reply
in a short QSO
W1Aw UR  599  OP NAME K
and see if you reply .

if  i did not copy your callsign completely then
whatever i have and a ? ...W1? .. W1A?...  AW?.... 1A? if ihave nothing or not sure
 i would send AGN or a ? or QRZ ? and wait for a repeat of your call.
otherwise i would CQ again .


But then i am not particular .. and operate under the theory that having the QSO is the most important ... the form of the QSO is not as big an issue to me.
I dont consider a single call to be rude ... just expedient.
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PLANKEYE
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Posts: 212




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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 04:27:22 PM »

K8PRG


Yeah, and then some....as in how does "ethics" come into play here? Ethics is about morals...correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, so you're not following proper procedures...as in cutting corners.....is that moraly wrong?
That's a rhetorical question since I won't be around for the answer......moving on here.


______________________________

PLANKEYE HERE

Since you moved on you won't read what I have to say but others will.  We all have a choice how we act on and off the air.  The procedures used in CW do vary but mostly it is common sense.  This hobby is supposed to be fun, please try to keep that in mind.   





http://http://k4icy.com/BegginersCWguide.htm
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VK5EEE
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2017, 10:17:24 PM »

PLANKEYE excellent resource, will add it to the page of resources.

K8AC things are not as they appear first glance. ON4UN and IARU have done immense damage to CW in modern times causing the confusion we have on the bands now with unended CQ calls, rude single call sign calling, loss of basic essentials of a QSO e.g. honest report, etc.

Here is the dirt on the arrogant ON4UN -- he REFUSED to issue a correction to his book in spite of CW Ops around the world pointing out the manifest errors, including clubs such as FISTS, and even a national amateur radio society.

Meanwhile, IARU officials have seemingly wiped all traces of those documents from the web, and still no correction has been issued. His book would have been really fine (aside from some other issues but it can't be expected to be perfect) had it not attempted without any sound evidence and contrary to what EVERY professional radio operator and most amateurs already knew, to turn things on their head.

http://www.vkcw.net/forum/t-1718867
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
NI0C
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Posts: 2935




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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 08:36:23 AM »

Hi Guys,

AA4PB provided a good and succinct reply to Kenneth's question.  But, I'm frankly stunned to read responses by others favoring clunky operating procedures to the point of insulting those who use more abbreviated techniques. 

Consider that, especially in the presence (or anticipated presence) of multiple responses to a CQ call, the most effective way to achieve a QSO is frequently to give your call sign once. This is especially true when calling a semi-rare DX station, or during contests.

Since Kenneth's original posting concerned Field Day operations, I'll offer this from experience operating 1A, cw only, from K9YA several years in a row.  We had a great hilltop location, and a fan dipole suspended from a tower.  Running only 100 watts, we could command a frequency for hours, often with small pileups.  Since our goal was maximum QSO rate, we responded to the first call sign we could pick out.  Those who used our call sign first were often passed over in favor of someone else with a snappier style. 

I think it is rather obtuse to call CQ, then ignore someone who sends their call sign once and stands by.  Consider that the guy is trying to do you a favor, helping you to initiate a QSO sooner.  If you have chosen your CQ frequency wisely, odds are very slim indeed that a single call response is somehow spurious or not intended for you.   

I know that some of you hate DX pileups and contests, but consider that some of the most efficient ways of initiating contacts have been developed and honed over the years by DX'ers and contesters. 

Just food for thought!
Cheers & 73,
Chuck  NI0C
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G4LNA
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Posts: 140




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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2017, 09:21:23 AM »

Hi Guys,

AA4PB provided a good and succinct reply to Kenneth's question.  But, I'm frankly stunned to read responses by others favoring clunky operating procedures to the point of insulting those who use more abbreviated techniques.  

Consider that, especially in the presence (or anticipated presence) of multiple responses to a CQ call, the most effective way to achieve a QSO is frequently to give your call sign once. This is especially true when calling a semi-rare DX station, or during contests.

Since Kenneth's original posting concerned Field Day operations, I'll offer this from experience operating 1A, cw only, from K9YA several years in a row.  We had a great hilltop location, and a fan dipole suspended from a tower.  Running only 100 watts, we could command a frequency for hours, often with small pileups.  Since our goal was maximum QSO rate, we responded to the first call sign we could pick out.  Those who used our call sign first were often passed over in favor of someone else with a snappier style.  

I think it is rather obtuse to call CQ, then ignore someone who sends their call sign once and stands by.  Consider that the guy is trying to do you a favor, helping you to initiate a QSO sooner.  If you have chosen your CQ frequency wisely, odds are very slim indeed that a single call response is somehow spurious or not intended for you.    

I know that some of you hate DX pileups and contests, but consider that some of the most efficient ways of initiating contacts have been developed and honed over the years by DX'ers and contesters.  

Just food for thought!
Cheers & 73,
Chuck  NI0C

I don't take part in contests, I accept the single call when calling DX, I've done that myself, but I'm just a normal guy just calling CQ, as you see I'm not DX and a station comes back to me with just their call once, often that station is not netted on my frequency, so I'm likely to miss his call anyway, or if he is on my frequency and I answer him I find that he is actually speaking to someone else 1kHz down the band.

So there's me going back to him, blardy blardy blar RST, name, QTH etc. only to find I've gone back to dead air because he is speaking to some DX station further down the band and there's me sat there looking a right plonker. Think it doesn't often happen? It does. So now I just sit and wait and try and make a decision, do I go back to him/her, or make it to the top of the LID list by calling them and finding it's not for me?

Next time it happens maybe I'll try <their callsign> IMI DE G4LNA KN and see what happens, that doesn't save much time though, does it?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:23:31 AM by G4LNA » Logged

NI0C
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Posts: 2935




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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2017, 09:38:11 AM »

Quote
So there's me going back to him, blardy blardy blar RST, name, QTH etc. only to find I've gone back to dead air because he is speaking to some DX station further down the band and there's me sat there looking a right plonker. Think it doesn't often happen? It does. So now I just sit and wait and try and make a decision, do I go back to him/her, or make it to the top of the LID list by calling them and finding it's not for me?

Next time it happens maybe I'll try <their callsign> IMI DE G4LNA KN and see what happens, that doesn't save much time though, does it?
That's interesting, Paul.  I can't recall that sort of thing happening to me in response to a CQ.  Something that would save time, in case of doubt, is to respond with <their callsign> followed by <their signal report> K.   No reason why you can't continue on with a long chat if they come back. 
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G4LNA
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Posts: 140




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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2017, 10:18:54 AM »

 Something that would save time, in case of doubt, is to respond with <their callsign> followed by <their signal report> K.   No reason why you can't continue on with a long chat if they come back.  

That's another way, I'll have to remember that one.

It seems to be happening here in Europe recently because there seems to be a crop of special callsigns and almost without exception they seemed to be working split. It can get confusing if you suddenly get a load of stations calling, you think you've got a pileup  Grin  
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NI0C
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 10:58:56 AM »

 Something that would save time, in case of doubt, is to respond with <their callsign> followed by <their signal report> K.   No reason why you can't continue on with a long chat if they come back.  

That's another way, I'll have to remember that one.

It seems to be happening here in Europe recently because there seems to be a crop of special callsigns and almost without exception they seemed to be working split. It can get confusing if you suddenly get a load of stations calling, you think you've got a pileup  Grin  
Ah yes, a stray split pileup would explain that>  I like the picture of your shack on your website.
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G4LNA
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2017, 12:01:56 PM »


Ah yes, a stray split pileup would explain that>  I like the picture of your shack on your website.

Thanks Chuck, it's a bit small, if I lift my elbows I can touch the wall each side  Grin
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