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Author Topic: CBers on 10 meters  (Read 15355 times)
WG7X
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Posts: 350




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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2011, 08:20:17 AM »

Ahhh Yes...

Another thread arises from the dead pool.

CB'ers are always a fair game on ham radio websites.

I think that most of the folks who would welcome the troublemakers into the the Amateur radio fraternity are fooling themselves. The problem is simple: they enjoy being "outlaws" and for the most part would not pay any more attention to ham radio regulations than they do to CB regulations.

Yes, many folks started on CB and graduated to ham radio. I would agree that for the most part they all became good citizens.That was "then" this is "now".

Now that it is so trivial to get a license and become "legit" we can only assume that the denizens of the sewer we call CB are there because they enjoy it.

On a related note, if ten meters ever shows any signs of waking up, be prepared to enjoy all this insanity brought into your receiver on a daily basis. I have noted over the last two cycles an increase in the local and DX pirate activity on ten. There is not too much we can do about it, except wail and gnash our teeth here.

It will happen and the hams will probably be in the minority on ten and twelve.

73 Gary

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N2EY
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Posts: 3895




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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2011, 09:18:21 AM »

Is the "freebanding" illegal operation culture romanticized as an "outlaw" pursuit?  Is getting a ham license selling out to the man? 

Yes and yes.

The Tech lost its code test more than 20 years ago (1991). All license classes were available with 5 wpm and a waiver in 1990, without a waiver in 2000. All code testing disappeared more than 4 years ago. The written tests for Tech were reduced in 1987 and for all classes in 2000.

It's not about the testing and never has been.

It's about being licensed, following rules, etc.

Getting the license, regardless of the requirements, means giving "the feds" all sorts of personal info, agreeing to follow *all* the rules, and agreeing to let them in for a station inspection any time the station is in operation.  And much more. being unlicensed - "going rogue" - avoids all that.

An unlicensed person can reasonably claim ignorance of rules and regs, technical stuff, etc.; a licensed person cannot.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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N0ZNA
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Posts: 115




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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »

you can hear them from 24mhz to 19mhz all the time,my problem is them splatering from am channel 28 up to 28.380   its bad around Festus/Desoto Missouri...73s de n0zna
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N8WWM
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Posts: 26




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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2011, 01:52:52 AM »

Quote from:  link=topic=48173.msg331651#msg331651 date=971589588
In some countries, 11 meters is a ham band.  I suppose that's why in the US, CBers cannot "DX" - the FCC doesn't want US CBers talking to licensed hams.

Therefore, it's logical to believe that 10 meters might be "legal" for CBers in some countries.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about interfering with them. Smiley

What countries designate 11 meters as a ham band?
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N2EY
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Posts: 3895




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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2011, 04:24:56 AM »

Quote from:  link=topic=48173.msg331651#msg331651 date=971589588
In some countries, 11 meters is a ham band.  I suppose that's why in the US, CBers cannot "DX" - the FCC doesn't want US CBers talking to licensed hams.

Therefore, it's logical to believe that 10 meters might be "legal" for CBers in some countries.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about interfering with them. Smiley

What countries designate 11 meters as a ham band?

Nope, none of the above is true. I don't know of a single country that allows hams on 11 meters nor cbers on 10. Not legally, anyway. 10 is a worldwide ham band.

Here's what really happened:

Before WW2, the ham bands below 30 MHz were 160, 80/75, 40, 20 and 10. And that was all.

160 was very popular, particularly among US 'phone ops.

Ham radio was shut down during WW2, same as during WW1, at least in countries actually fighting. The ham bands were used by the various militaries for the duration. Once the war ended, the bands were gradually given back to hams.

Except for 160. During the war, a radionavigation system called LORAN (now known as "LORAN-A" IIRC) was implemented on 160, and it was so successful that after the war it was not turned off. It was also impractical to move to another frequency, so hams were out of luck.

In the USA and some other countries, there was a band around 27 MHz allocated to "ISM" devices - "Industrial, Scientific, Medical". Diathermy machines, heat sealers, etc. The idea was to put all the RF noisemakers there, and keep them out of the way of other services. Since they weren't hooked up to antennas, the typical ISM user would only interfere with locals - usually.

As a partial compensation for the loss of 160, US and some other hams got access to a new band around 27 MHz right after WW2. It wasn't harmonically related to the others, and it wasn't 160, but it was something. Ham gear began to include 11 meter coverage; it was so close to 10 that it wasn't hard to do. Often all that was needed was new crystals or a padder in the VFO.

At about the same time the FCC got the idea that it would be good to have a low-powered land mobile service for "citizens" which didn't have the licensing complexity of other services. They created Class A and Class B CB, on a band around 465 MHz, in the late 1940s. It enjoyed some popularity but the performance you could get from a low-cost, simple 465 MHz radio in those days was quite limited. Good performance withthe available technology required a much more expensive and complex radio. So UHF CB didn't get as much popularity as the FCC would have liked.

Meanwhile, a new ham band at 15 meters was created by international treaty in the late 1940s and opened to hams in the early 1950s. In the same time period, hams were allowed back on 160, sharing with LORAN using a complex system of power levels and subbands. As LORAN A was replaced by other systems, hams got more access to 160.

By 1957 or so the FCC was convinced that UHF CB wasn't good enough, and that hams didn't really need 11 meters. ISM use of 11 had dropped during that time, too. Since 11 wasn't a ham band by international treaty and hams were econdary users there, FCC could reallocate it whenever they wanted. So in 1958 FCC kicked US hams off 11 meters and created Class C and Class D CB there, on 23 channels.

The big reason for the change was that, with 1958 technology, manufacturers could build simple, low-cost channelized radios that would offer good performance for local communications. The antennas would be relatively small, too. Although 11 could support worldwide DX, FCC reasoned that regulations limiting power, antenna size, time on the air and maximum distance wouldprevent any problems. After all, they were Federal Regulations!

11 meter CB soon became very popular, and for a few years was well behaved and used for its intended purposes. But by the 1960s it had morphed into something FCC hadn't planned on: a free-for-all where FCC rules were routinely ignored. The whole thing simply got out of FCC's control; there were too many folks breaking too many rules for them to cope. The legal processes of the day were not up to the task of controlling the problem.

Worse, soon there were cb folks who moved outside the CB channelsusing old ham gear or modified cb stuff. They found they could use old ham gear or modified cb stuff to operate on frequencies from about 26 to 29 MHz using 11 meter antennas, but avoiding the crowded CB channels. So they did.

The problem was so bad that by 1978 FCC passed rules banning the manufacture, sale and use of RF amplifiers for that frequency region unless they met certain specific requirements. This didn't solve the problem but it was all they could do. US Novices, and later Technicians, were given 10 meter privileges with the idea that they would make the band more busy and so discourage cb use of it.

The end result is the mess we have today. It has faded somewhat as the number of cb users and sunspots has dropped, but it's still there after 35+ years.

In the mid 1970s there was a proposal by EIA to move CB to 220 MHz - take the band away from hams and make it a cb band (Class E) using low power FM. This met with universal opposition from both hams and cbers. Hams didn't want to lose another band, and cbers knew that 220 would not have the DX capabilites of 11. Plus the move to 220 would make practically all 11 meter cb stuff worthless - new radios, antennas, etc. would be needed. The proposal was ultimately defeated; in part because FCC realized that the folks on 11 probably wouldn't move anyway. They'd just use illegal radios the same way they used illegal amplifiers.

The end result of the proposal was that 27 mhz cb went to 40 channels, which made EIA happy because they could sell new sets.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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ONAIR
Member

Posts: 1744




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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2011, 08:35:37 AM »

Quote from:  link=topic=48173.msg331651#msg331651 date=971589588
In some countries, 11 meters is a ham band.  I suppose that's why in the US, CBers cannot "DX" - the FCC doesn't want US CBers talking to licensed hams.

Therefore, it's logical to believe that 10 meters might be "legal" for CBers in some countries.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about interfering with them. Smiley

What countries designate 11 meters as a ham band?

Nope, none of the above is true. I don't know of a single country that allows hams on 11 meters nor cbers on 10. Not legally, anyway. 10 is a worldwide ham band.

Here's what really happened:

Before WW2, the ham bands below 30 MHz were 160, 80/75, 40, 20 and 10. And that was all.

160 was very popular, particularly among US 'phone ops.

Ham radio was shut down during WW2, same as during WW1, at least in countries actually fighting. The ham bands were used by the various militaries for the duration. Once the war ended, the bands were gradually given back to hams.

Except for 160. During the war, a radionavigation system called LORAN (now known as "LORAN-A" IIRC) was implemented on 160, and it was so successful that after the war it was not turned off. It was also impractical to move to another frequency, so hams were out of luck.

In the USA and some other countries, there was a band around 27 MHz allocated to "ISM" devices - "Industrial, Scientific, Medical". Diathermy machines, heat sealers, etc. The idea was to put all the RF noisemakers there, and keep them out of the way of other services. Since they weren't hooked up to antennas, the typical ISM user would only interfere with locals - usually.

As a partial compensation for the loss of 160, US and some other hams got access to a new band around 27 MHz right after WW2. It wasn't harmonically related to the others, and it wasn't 160, but it was something. Ham gear began to include 11 meter coverage; it was so close to 10 that it wasn't hard to do. Often all that was needed was new crystals or a padder in the VFO.

At about the same time the FCC got the idea that it would be good to have a low-powered land mobile service for "citizens" which didn't have the licensing complexity of other services. They created Class A and Class B CB, on a band around 465 MHz, in the late 1940s. It enjoyed some popularity but the performance you could get from a low-cost, simple 465 MHz radio in those days was quite limited. Good performance withthe available technology required a much more expensive and complex radio. So UHF CB didn't get as much popularity as the FCC would have liked.

Meanwhile, a new ham band at 15 meters was created by international treaty in the late 1940s and opened to hams in the early 1950s. In the same time period, hams were allowed back on 160, sharing with LORAN using a complex system of power levels and subbands. As LORAN A was replaced by other systems, hams got more access to 160.

By 1957 or so the FCC was convinced that UHF CB wasn't good enough, and that hams didn't really need 11 meters. ISM use of 11 had dropped during that time, too. Since 11 wasn't a ham band by international treaty and hams were econdary users there, FCC could reallocate it whenever they wanted. So in 1958 FCC kicked US hams off 11 meters and created Class C and Class D CB there, on 23 channels.

The big reason for the change was that, with 1958 technology, manufacturers could build simple, low-cost channelized radios that would offer good performance for local communications. The antennas would be relatively small, too. Although 11 could support worldwide DX, FCC reasoned that regulations limiting power, antenna size, time on the air and maximum distance wouldprevent any problems. After all, they were Federal Regulations!

11 meter CB soon became very popular, and for a few years was well behaved and used for its intended purposes. But by the 1960s it had morphed into something FCC hadn't planned on: a free-for-all where FCC rules were routinely ignored. The whole thing simply got out of FCC's control; there were too many folks breaking too many rules for them to cope. The legal processes of the day were not up to the task of controlling the problem.

Worse, soon there were cb folks who moved outside the CB channelsusing old ham gear or modified cb stuff. They found they could use old ham gear or modified cb stuff to operate on frequencies from about 26 to 29 MHz using 11 meter antennas, but avoiding the crowded CB channels. So they did.

The problem was so bad that by 1978 FCC passed rules banning the manufacture, sale and use of RF amplifiers for that frequency region unless they met certain specific requirements. This didn't solve the problem but it was all they could do. US Novices, and later Technicians, were given 10 meter privileges with the idea that they would make the band more busy and so discourage cb use of it.

The end result is the mess we have today. It has faded somewhat as the number of cb users and sunspots has dropped, but it's still there after 35+ years.

In the mid 1970s there was a proposal by EIA to move CB to 220 MHz - take the band away from hams and make it a cb band (Class E) using low power FM. This met with universal opposition from both hams and cbers. Hams didn't want to lose another band, and cbers knew that 220 would not have the DX capabilites of 11. Plus the move to 220 would make practically all 11 meter cb stuff worthless - new radios, antennas, etc. would be needed. The proposal was ultimately defeated; in part because FCC realized that the folks on 11 probably wouldn't move anyway. They'd just use illegal radios the same way they used illegal amplifiers.

The end result of the proposal was that 27 mhz cb went to 40 channels, which made EIA happy because they could sell new sets.

73 de Jim, N2EY
   Excellent synopsis of what has actually occurred.  The actual CB channels have quieted down somewhat, but the "Freebander" offshoot has now grown to epidemic proportions.  When the band is open, you can sometimes hear more "skip shooting" and DX activity between 27.400 and 28.000 Mhz, than you can on 10 Meters itself!  They actually join international "DX Groups" with internet websites, and assign themselves "Call Signs"!  Internet CB stores openly sell 10 Meter "export" radios, power amplifiers, beam antennas and the like to cater to this Freeband crowd.  It is not unheard of for these characters to use amplifiers rated at 5 KW or above, and splattering right up through 10 Meters.
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N2EY
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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2011, 09:15:39 AM »

 Excellent synopsis of what has actually occurred. 

Thanks! Whether the numbers today are higher or lower is anyone's guess.

It was a classic case of "what could possibly go wrong?" not being asked at the time. FCC simply did not consider that people would simply ignore their regulations. (Well, it was 1958....)

73 de Jim, N2EY
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ONAIR
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Posts: 1744




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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2011, 11:19:02 AM »

 Excellent synopsis of what has actually occurred. 

Thanks! Whether the numbers today are higher or lower is anyone's guess.

It was a classic case of "what could possibly go wrong?" not being asked at the time. FCC simply did not consider that people would simply ignore their regulations. (Well, it was 1958....)

73 de Jim, N2EY
   Yep!  I think the FCC thought that CB would mainly just be used for local business and family communications.  They did not realize that people would be really exited at making new contacts with strangers, and would be facinated with the prospect that they could now speak to people hundreds or even thousands of miles away using just their little 5 Watt CB radios!
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N2EY
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Posts: 3895




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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2011, 03:36:25 PM »

 Yep!  I think the FCC thought that CB would mainly just be used for local business and family communications. 

You don't have to wonder; they were very clear about the purposes of the new service. They only created 27 MHz cb because good UHF gear cost so much.

In a way, FCC was trying to level the playing field for business. Here's why:

From the 1940s onward, there were VHF/UHF FM land mobile radio services for all sorts of commercial purposes, from taxicabs to heating oil contractors to construction companies. The only problem was that the radios were expensive and the licensing process complex and expensive.

What this did was to give big companies a competitive edge over small ones. A big company such as Yellow Cab could afford the high cost of getting a VHF FM land mobile license, base stations, mobile radios, etc., amortizing the costs over a large fleet. A small local cab company with, say, 5 or 10 cabs couldn't.

But with a low-cost, simple-to-license service, the small company could have radio-dispatched cabs too. Same for other small companies.

Except it didn't quite work out that way....

They did not realize that people would be really exited at making new contacts with strangers, and would be facinated with the prospect that they could now speak to people hundreds or even thousands of miles away using just their little 5 Watt CB radios!

Or rather, they could speak with people who claimed to be hundreds or thousands of miles away.

It must be remembered that for the first several years 11 meter cb was pretty well behaved. It was only in the 1960s and later that things got out of FCC's control. Conformity vs. rebellion, maybe?

---

It occurred to me this AM that one of the many factors which caused the cb culture shift may have been the lowly unlicensed 100 milliwatt walkie-talkie.

While it may at first seem unlikely, those little things meant that on the same channel you would encounter both licensed and unlicensed folks. The licensed folks would be using callsigns and be concerned about FCC's displeasure, but the unlicensed ones would ID however they pleased. They could claim to be whoever they wanted to be.

And that was the first domino.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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AE4RV
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« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2011, 03:51:17 AM »

Except for, as I recall, the radically limited range of those 100 milliwatt nine volt walkie talkies. My friends and I were still well within yelling distance after reception gave out.  Sad
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N2EY
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« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2011, 06:41:56 AM »

Except for, as I recall, the radically limited range of those 100 milliwatt nine volt walkie talkies. My friends and I were still well within yelling distance after reception gave out.  Sad


Some were like that, yes. But there were some that would go farther, particularly in a good location such as from the top floor of a house on a hill.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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ONAIR
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« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2011, 02:33:50 PM »

Except for, as I recall, the radically limited range of those 100 milliwatt nine volt walkie talkies. My friends and I were still well within yelling distance after reception gave out.  Sad


Some were like that, yes. But there were some that would go farther, particularly in a good location such as from the top floor of a house on a hill.

73 de Jim, N2EY


   I used to take my Lafayette 100 mw talkie to the roof of a local building that was 21 stories tall, and I was simply amazed at all the stations that I was picking up!  It had a regenerative receiver, so I was hearing CBers, Hams, Taxi companies, and a whole slew of other stations.  This is probably one of the reasons that so many people seemed to be catching on to CB radio and then even on to Ham back then, because such a huge number of them were able to hear us!    Lafayette and Radio Shack were selling those Walkie Talkies at the time for around $10 to $20 bucks, so just about every kid and their brother in town had one.  I remember how on Christmas Days, there was always a huge number of new people coming on to CH 14!
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N2EY
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2011, 06:56:05 PM »

I used to take my Lafayette 100 mw talkie to the roof of a local building that was 21 stories tall, and I was simply amazed at all the stations that I was picking up!  It had a regenerative receiver, so I was hearing CBers, Hams, Taxi companies, and a whole slew of other stations. 

No, it had a superregenerative receiver. Common in such sets. Some even used the same RF transistor for both receive and transmit.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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ONAIR
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2011, 11:26:16 PM »

I used to take my Lafayette 100 mw talkie to the roof of a local building that was 21 stories tall, and I was simply amazed at all the stations that I was picking up!  It had a regenerative receiver, so I was hearing CBers, Hams, Taxi companies, and a whole slew of other stations. 

No, it had a superregenerative receiver. Common in such sets. Some even used the same RF transistor for both receive and transmit.

73 de Jim, N2EY
   Yup.  It seemed to pick up everything, with the strongest signal being the winner.  As a kid, it sure fueled my interest in radio and motivated me to get on CB, which eventually led me onto Ham. 
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